Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Finchenden and Kaye of Woodsome
244 views
Skip to first unread message
Ian Goddard
Oct 16, 2014, 9:30:26 AM10/16/14
to
The Kayes have been resident in and around the Holme Valley, West Riding
of Yorks., since the late C14th. The consensus amongst local
genealogists is that most if not all were descended from John Kaye
resident in Farnley Tyas in the late C14th.
Woodsome Hall and the Kaye chapel of Almondbury church both have the
arms of Kaye quartered with Finchenden. Direct evidence of the link
between the families is problematic, however. Hulbert's Annals of the
church and parish of Almondbury and Taylor Dyson's History of
Huddersfield both give summaries but give somewhat different accounts.
The Finchenden family takes its name from a place name, later Finsdale.
This place is variously said to be in Batley or Morley. So far I
haven't been able to locate it exactly but it appears to be one of the
valleys either side of Scotchman's Lane between Batley and Morley,
probably the valley occupied by the railway line. A few Finchendens
are mentioned in the published Wakefield manorial rolls in connection
with townships adjacent to Batley.
*Sir William and Alice Finchenden*
Sir William's ODNB entry under the spelling variation Fyncheden presumes
him to have been the son of a Henry Finchenden and that there was also a
contemporary but senior William. He had married Alice, origins unknown,
by 24 Jul 1364. He was a lawyer, steward or Pontefract & Tickhill under
John of Gaunt and on 14 Apr 1371 appointed chief justice of the common
bench. The biographer says he is not known to have had any children.
Hunter quoted by Hulbert says:
/36 Edward III [1363] - Indenture between Monsieur Henry Gramary of the
first part, and William de Fincheden on the other, declaring that a fine
had been levied to the said William, by Henry Gramary, and Elizabeth,
his wife, of the third part of the Manor of Hickleton./
This is somewhat ambiguous but if “his” in “his wife” refers to William
then Elizabeth must have been an earlier wife who had died and William
remarried by the following year. As Sir William is known to have
acquired the greater part of Hickleton it seems unlikely that this
indenture refers to another William Finchenden.
Sir William and Alice acquired the manors of Farnley Tyas & Woodsome
about 1373. Hunter quoted by Hulbert:
/46 Edw. III - Between William Finchenden, Knight, and Alicia, his wife,
William de Mirfield, Knt., William de Mirfield, Clerk, Hugh de Wombwell,
and Jo. Amyas the younger, complainants, and Jo. Bould and Olivia his
wife, defendants, of the Manors of Wodesum and Farnley Tyas, in the
right of William and Alice./
According to ODNB Sir William died in 1374, being replaced as chief
justice on 10 Oct.
Alice granted the Farnley and Woodsome to John Kay for 20 years in 1378.
From Hulbert:
/By Indenture dated 1378, Dame Alice Fynchenden grants to John Cay her
Manor of Woodsome, with app. in Farnley Tyas, for 20 years./
In the Subsidy Roll of 1379 John was at Farnley Tyas:
/Johannes Kay & Margareta uxor ejus, Frenkelayn xl.d./
and Alice was at Batley:
/Domina Alicia Finchedene Dame de Chiualer xx.s./
*Reversion to the Kayes*
In Hulbert's version Alice must then have married a de Mirfield[1] as he
then quotes Whitaker's Leeds and Elmete:
In the 20th Richard II[1397], the reversion of the Manor after the death
of Alice, Lady Mirfield and John Kay is granted to Lawrence Kay, his son
He also quotes, more oracularly, from Hunter:
/"There was a place called Fincheden, famous for its connection with the
Kayes, it stood by Howley Hall, Batley; but it is now depopulated. Kaye
married Fincheden's heiress."—G.W.T./
In 1379 Sir William de Mirfield was in Mirfield:
/Willelmus de Mirfeld, Chiualer, & uxor xx.s./
Taylor Dyson has a somewhat different account. After noticing the 1378
indenture he says “we then find Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Sir
William Finchenden, married this John Kaye.” He goes on to say that
Lawrence was their child and only son, that John pre-deceased Elizabeth
and it was Elizabeth, not her mother, who married Sir William Mirfield
to become the Lady Mirfield of 1397. He gives no documentation apart
from the indenture.
*John and Lawrence Kaye*
Flower's visitations give John Kay 6 legitimate, named sons and the 1575
adds an bastard son to this tally. They also say that there were 6
unnamed daughters. Lawrence is given as first son and heir. Clearly
Taylor Dyson's statement that Elizabeth outlived John, that Lawrence was
their only son and the enumerated list sons in the visitations cannot
all be correct; indeed he cites no evidence that Elizabeth existed.
(This marriage to Elizabeth is mentioned in recent local accounts of
Woodsome but it could simply be that Taylor Dyson is being quoted.)
*The Finchenden/Kaye relationship*
Hulbert quotes, admittedly indirectly, documentation which Taylor Dyson
does not, so it seems reasonable to accept as a working hypothesis that
the manor passed from Alice to the Kayes.
In light of the various local traditions it also seems reasonable to
accept as a working hypotheses that this was because Lawrence was a
Finchenden descendent and that John Kaye had married an otherwise
unknown daughter of William & Alice Finchenden. Whether this was the
Elizabeth of Taylor Dyson's account or the Margaret of the subsidy roll
is less clear. Given that John had 12 children two marriages is a
possibility if not a likelihood so Elizabeth may have been a first wife
who died after the birth of Lawrence but before that of the next son
with John remarrying before the subsidy roll was recorded.
My problem is whether there is any extant documentation to test these
hypotheses, in particular the source of Whitaker's mention of the reversion.
[1]I wondered about the possibility that Alice might have been a de
Mirfield and inherited Sir William's property if he had died with no
other heir.
John Watson's recent post (
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/POLguXnTTuY
) shows that Sir William was succeeded by a son Adam so this can be
discounted. Although the name of Adam's wife is unknown it seems
unlikely that it would have Alice; Adam had 3 children and Alice must
have been well past child-bearing age.
It seems likely, therefore, that Sir William was widowed and it was he
whom she married. In this case she was his second wife, not his
daughter. This is a better chronological fit as the two Sir Williams
appear to have been contemporaries. It would then have been his
step-mother rather than his aunt who granted Howley to Adam.
Also in regard to John's post, the possible son of Sir William de
Mirfield, William, parson of Bradford, must be the William de Mirfield,
Clerk in the 1373 document mentioned above.
--
Ian
The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk
of Yorks., since the late C14th. The consensus amongst local
genealogists is that most if not all were descended from John Kaye
resident in Farnley Tyas in the late C14th.
Woodsome Hall and the Kaye chapel of Almondbury church both have the
arms of Kaye quartered with Finchenden. Direct evidence of the link
between the families is problematic, however. Hulbert's Annals of the
church and parish of Almondbury and Taylor Dyson's History of
Huddersfield both give summaries but give somewhat different accounts.
The Finchenden family takes its name from a place name, later Finsdale.
This place is variously said to be in Batley or Morley. So far I
haven't been able to locate it exactly but it appears to be one of the
valleys either side of Scotchman's Lane between Batley and Morley,
probably the valley occupied by the railway line. A few Finchendens
are mentioned in the published Wakefield manorial rolls in connection
with townships adjacent to Batley.
*Sir William and Alice Finchenden*
Sir William's ODNB entry under the spelling variation Fyncheden presumes
him to have been the son of a Henry Finchenden and that there was also a
contemporary but senior William. He had married Alice, origins unknown,
by 24 Jul 1364. He was a lawyer, steward or Pontefract & Tickhill under
John of Gaunt and on 14 Apr 1371 appointed chief justice of the common
bench. The biographer says he is not known to have had any children.
Hunter quoted by Hulbert says:
/36 Edward III [1363] - Indenture between Monsieur Henry Gramary of the
first part, and William de Fincheden on the other, declaring that a fine
had been levied to the said William, by Henry Gramary, and Elizabeth,
his wife, of the third part of the Manor of Hickleton./
This is somewhat ambiguous but if “his” in “his wife” refers to William
then Elizabeth must have been an earlier wife who had died and William
remarried by the following year. As Sir William is known to have
acquired the greater part of Hickleton it seems unlikely that this
indenture refers to another William Finchenden.
Sir William and Alice acquired the manors of Farnley Tyas & Woodsome
about 1373. Hunter quoted by Hulbert:
/46 Edw. III - Between William Finchenden, Knight, and Alicia, his wife,
William de Mirfield, Knt., William de Mirfield, Clerk, Hugh de Wombwell,
and Jo. Amyas the younger, complainants, and Jo. Bould and Olivia his
wife, defendants, of the Manors of Wodesum and Farnley Tyas, in the
right of William and Alice./
According to ODNB Sir William died in 1374, being replaced as chief
justice on 10 Oct.
Alice granted the Farnley and Woodsome to John Kay for 20 years in 1378.
From Hulbert:
/By Indenture dated 1378, Dame Alice Fynchenden grants to John Cay her
Manor of Woodsome, with app. in Farnley Tyas, for 20 years./
In the Subsidy Roll of 1379 John was at Farnley Tyas:
/Johannes Kay & Margareta uxor ejus, Frenkelayn xl.d./
and Alice was at Batley:
/Domina Alicia Finchedene Dame de Chiualer xx.s./
*Reversion to the Kayes*
In Hulbert's version Alice must then have married a de Mirfield[1] as he
then quotes Whitaker's Leeds and Elmete:
In the 20th Richard II[1397], the reversion of the Manor after the death
of Alice, Lady Mirfield and John Kay is granted to Lawrence Kay, his son
He also quotes, more oracularly, from Hunter:
/"There was a place called Fincheden, famous for its connection with the
Kayes, it stood by Howley Hall, Batley; but it is now depopulated. Kaye
married Fincheden's heiress."—G.W.T./
In 1379 Sir William de Mirfield was in Mirfield:
/Willelmus de Mirfeld, Chiualer, & uxor xx.s./
Taylor Dyson has a somewhat different account. After noticing the 1378
indenture he says “we then find Elizabeth, daughter and heiress of Sir
William Finchenden, married this John Kaye.” He goes on to say that
Lawrence was their child and only son, that John pre-deceased Elizabeth
and it was Elizabeth, not her mother, who married Sir William Mirfield
to become the Lady Mirfield of 1397. He gives no documentation apart
from the indenture.
*John and Lawrence Kaye*
Flower's visitations give John Kay 6 legitimate, named sons and the 1575
adds an bastard son to this tally. They also say that there were 6
unnamed daughters. Lawrence is given as first son and heir. Clearly
Taylor Dyson's statement that Elizabeth outlived John, that Lawrence was
their only son and the enumerated list sons in the visitations cannot
all be correct; indeed he cites no evidence that Elizabeth existed.
(This marriage to Elizabeth is mentioned in recent local accounts of
Woodsome but it could simply be that Taylor Dyson is being quoted.)
*The Finchenden/Kaye relationship*
Hulbert quotes, admittedly indirectly, documentation which Taylor Dyson
does not, so it seems reasonable to accept as a working hypothesis that
the manor passed from Alice to the Kayes.
In light of the various local traditions it also seems reasonable to
accept as a working hypotheses that this was because Lawrence was a
Finchenden descendent and that John Kaye had married an otherwise
unknown daughter of William & Alice Finchenden. Whether this was the
Elizabeth of Taylor Dyson's account or the Margaret of the subsidy roll
is less clear. Given that John had 12 children two marriages is a
possibility if not a likelihood so Elizabeth may have been a first wife
who died after the birth of Lawrence but before that of the next son
with John remarrying before the subsidy roll was recorded.
My problem is whether there is any extant documentation to test these
hypotheses, in particular the source of Whitaker's mention of the reversion.
[1]I wondered about the possibility that Alice might have been a de
Mirfield and inherited Sir William's property if he had died with no
other heir.
John Watson's recent post (
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/POLguXnTTuY
) shows that Sir William was succeeded by a son Adam so this can be
discounted. Although the name of Adam's wife is unknown it seems
unlikely that it would have Alice; Adam had 3 children and Alice must
have been well past child-bearing age.
It seems likely, therefore, that Sir William was widowed and it was he
whom she married. In this case she was his second wife, not his
daughter. This is a better chronological fit as the two Sir Williams
appear to have been contemporaries. It would then have been his
step-mother rather than his aunt who granted Howley to Adam.
Also in regard to John's post, the possible son of Sir William de
Mirfield, William, parson of Bradford, must be the William de Mirfield,
Clerk in the 1373 document mentioned above.
--
Ian
The Hotmail address is my spam-bin. Real mail address is iang
at austonley org uk
John Watson
Oct 16, 2014, 7:01:53 PM10/16/14
to
These fines may be of some help.
Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, and Elizabeth his wife, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HIKELTON : To hold to William for life, of Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, paying yearly for the first five years one rose at the Nativity of St. John Baptist, and afterwards 12 marks yearly, for all service to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, and doing all services due to the chief lords; reversion to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry ; William gave 100 marks.
Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Roger del Clay and Clarice his wife and Thomas de Manyngham and Elena his wife, def., of the manor of WIRNETHORP: To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. Warranty by Roger and Clarice and Thomas and Elena for themselves and the heirs of Clarice and Elena. [1].
Westminster. Ouindene of Hilary, 38 Edw. III, 1364. William de Fyncheden, quer., Robert Passelewe of Ledes and Margery his wife, def., of the manor of BARNEBY-ON-DONE, and of 3 acres of land in WHAYTLAGH: To hold to William for life, of Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, paying for the first four years 16 marks a year, and for each year following 18 marks 8s. 8d., for all service to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, and doing all services due to the chief lords ; reversion to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery. William gave 100 marks. Warranty by Robert and Margery for themselves and the heirs of Margery. [2]
Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 40 Edw. III, 1366. William de Fyncheden, quer., William de Notton, def., of 4 messuages, 2 mills, 160 acres of land, 10 acres of meadow, 10 acres of wood, and 5s. rent in WOLVELAY and NOTTON: To hold to William de Fyncheden and his heirs ; he gave 100 marks. Release and warranty by William de Notton. [3]
Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 43 Edw III, 1370. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HYKELTON : To hold to William and his heirs; he gave 200 marks. [4]
Westminster. Morrow of Martinmas, 46 Edw. III, 1372. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, and Alice his wife, William de Mirfeld, chivaler, William de Mirfeld, clerk, Hugh de Wombewell, and John Amy as the younger, quer., John Botild and Olive his wife, def., of the manor of WODESOM [? near] Farnelay-Tyas : To hold to William and Alice, William, William, Hugh, and John Amyas and the heirs of John ; they gave 300 marks. Warranty by John Botild and Olive for themselves and the heirs of Olive. [5]
Westminster. Month of Easter, 47 Edw. III, 1373. William de Fyncheden, knight, quer., Robert de Swylyngton, " le uncle," chivaler, def, of the manor of SLAGHTHWAYT : To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. [6]
Regards,
John
[1] William Paley Baildon, Feet of Fines for the County of York, From 1347 to 1377, Yorkshire Archaeological Society, Record Series 52, 1915, 91.
[2] Ibid., 98.
[3] Ibid., 119.
[4] Ibid., 137.
[5] Ibid., 157.
[6] Ibid., 170.
John Watson
Oct 16, 2014, 7:44:19 PM10/16/14
to
On Thursday, 16 October 2014 20:30:26 UTC+7, Ian Goddard wrote:
Finchenden is now called Finsdale apparently. It is in Morley. See:
http://placenames.org.uk/id/placename/31/009683
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard
Oct 17, 2014, 4:50:40 AM10/17/14
to
On 17/10/14 00:44, John Watson wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 October 2014 20:30:26 UTC+7, Ian Goddard wrote:
>> The Finchenden family takes its name from a place name, later Finsdale.
>> This place is variously said to be in Batley or Morley. So far I
>> haven't been able to locate it exactly but it appears to be one of the
>> valleys either side of Scotchman's Lane between Batley and Morley,
>> probably the valley occupied by the railway line. A few Finchendens
>> are mentioned in the published Wakefield manorial rolls in connection
>> with townships adjacent to Batley.
> On Thursday, 16 October 2014 20:30:26 UTC+7, Ian Goddard wrote:
>> The Finchenden family takes its name from a place name, later Finsdale.
>> This place is variously said to be in Batley or Morley. So far I
>> haven't been able to locate it exactly but it appears to be one of the
>> valleys either side of Scotchman's Lane between Batley and Morley,
>> probably the valley occupied by the railway line. A few Finchendens
>> are mentioned in the published Wakefield manorial rolls in connection
>> with townships adjacent to Batley.
> Finchenden is now called Finsdale apparently. It is in Morley. See:
> http://placenames.org.uk/id/placename/31/009683
Finsdale plantation was a patch of woodland little N of Howley Hall on
> http://placenames.org.uk/id/placename/31/009683
maps of c 1900. But current OS maps don't have even that.
Both suffixes indicate it was a valley. Howley Hall & the plantation
were on one side of the valley
http://streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=425297&Y=425325&A=Y&Z=115 and Finsdale
Lodge is the name of a house somewhere on Scotchman Lane, the road from
Morley to Batley which runs down the ridge on the other side of the
valley. Hence I think that valley is the source of the name although it
could have been one of the smaller side valleys or the one with the
remains of the Batley-Ardsley railway.
I did manage to find a map online showing Finsdale quarry but can't
relocate it. That's a pity as it was the source of a fine stone used
for several public buildings. Howley Park quarry has probably subsumed it.
The Howley name seems to have taken over the whole area. Probably the
Finsdale settlement has suffered the final indignity of being buried
under a gofd club; just like Woodsome where the manor house, rebuilt in
Tudor times, has become the club house.
Ian Goddard
Oct 17, 2014, 6:00:36 AM10/17/14
to
On 17/10/14 00:01, John Watson wrote:
> These fines may be of some help.
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, and Elizabeth his wife, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HIKELTON : To hold to William for life, of Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, paying yearly for the first five years one rose at the Nativity of St. John Baptist, and afterwards 12 marks yearly, for all service to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, and doing all services due to the chief lords; reversion to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry ; William gave 100 marks.
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Roger del Clay and Clarice his wife and Thomas de Manyngham and Elena his wife, def., of the manor of WIRNETHORP: To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. Warranty by Roger and Clarice and Thomas and Elena for themselves and the heirs of Clarice and Elena. [1].
>
> Westminster. Ouindene of Hilary, 38 Edw. III, 1364. William de Fyncheden, quer., Robert Passelewe of Ledes and Margery his wife, def., of the manor of BARNEBY-ON-DONE, and of 3 acres of land in WHAYTLAGH: To hold to William for life, of Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, paying for the first four years 16 marks a year, and for each year following 18 marks 8s. 8d., for all service to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, and doing all services due to the chief lords ; reversion to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery. William gave 100 marks. Warranty by Robert and Margery for themselves and the heirs of Margery. [2]
>
> Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 40 Edw. III, 1366. William de Fyncheden, quer., William de Notton, def., of 4 messuages, 2 mills, 160 acres of land, 10 acres of meadow, 10 acres of wood, and 5s. rent in WOLVELAY and NOTTON: To hold to William de Fyncheden and his heirs ; he gave 100 marks. Release and warranty by William de Notton. [3]
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 43 Edw III, 1370. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HYKELTON : To hold to William and his heirs; he gave 200 marks. [4]
>
> Westminster. Morrow of Martinmas, 46 Edw. III, 1372. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, and Alice his wife, William de Mirfeld, chivaler, William de Mirfeld, clerk, Hugh de Wombewell, and John Amy as the younger, quer., John Botild and Olive his wife, def., of the manor of WODESOM [? near] Farnelay-Tyas : To hold to William and Alice, William, William, Hugh, and John Amyas and the heirs of John ; they gave 300 marks. Warranty by John Botild and Olive for themselves and the heirs of Olive. [5]
>
> Westminster. Month of Easter, 47 Edw. III, 1373. William de Fyncheden, knight, quer., Robert de Swylyngton, " le uncle," chivaler, def, of the manor of SLAGHTHWAYT : To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. [6]
Thanks, John. The ODNB entry also mentions Methley. He certainly seems
> These fines may be of some help.
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, and Elizabeth his wife, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HIKELTON : To hold to William for life, of Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, paying yearly for the first five years one rose at the Nativity of St. John Baptist, and afterwards 12 marks yearly, for all service to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry, and doing all services due to the chief lords; reversion to Henry and Elizabeth and the heirs of Henry ; William gave 100 marks.
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 36 Edw. III, 1363. William de Fyncheden, quer., Roger del Clay and Clarice his wife and Thomas de Manyngham and Elena his wife, def., of the manor of WIRNETHORP: To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. Warranty by Roger and Clarice and Thomas and Elena for themselves and the heirs of Clarice and Elena. [1].
>
> Westminster. Ouindene of Hilary, 38 Edw. III, 1364. William de Fyncheden, quer., Robert Passelewe of Ledes and Margery his wife, def., of the manor of BARNEBY-ON-DONE, and of 3 acres of land in WHAYTLAGH: To hold to William for life, of Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, paying for the first four years 16 marks a year, and for each year following 18 marks 8s. 8d., for all service to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery, and doing all services due to the chief lords ; reversion to Robert and Margery and the heirs of Margery. William gave 100 marks. Warranty by Robert and Margery for themselves and the heirs of Margery. [2]
>
> Westminster. Octave of St. John Baptist, 40 Edw. III, 1366. William de Fyncheden, quer., William de Notton, def., of 4 messuages, 2 mills, 160 acres of land, 10 acres of meadow, 10 acres of wood, and 5s. rent in WOLVELAY and NOTTON: To hold to William de Fyncheden and his heirs ; he gave 100 marks. Release and warranty by William de Notton. [3]
>
> Westminster. Octave of Hilary, 43 Edw III, 1370. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, quer., Henry Gramary, chivaler, def., of 1 messuage and 6 acres of meadow in DONCASTRE, BENTELAY, and BOLTON-ON-DYRNE, and of three parts of the manor of HYKELTON : To hold to William and his heirs; he gave 200 marks. [4]
>
> Westminster. Morrow of Martinmas, 46 Edw. III, 1372. William de Fyncheden, chivaler, and Alice his wife, William de Mirfeld, chivaler, William de Mirfeld, clerk, Hugh de Wombewell, and John Amy as the younger, quer., John Botild and Olive his wife, def., of the manor of WODESOM [? near] Farnelay-Tyas : To hold to William and Alice, William, William, Hugh, and John Amyas and the heirs of John ; they gave 300 marks. Warranty by John Botild and Olive for themselves and the heirs of Olive. [5]
>
> Westminster. Month of Easter, 47 Edw. III, 1373. William de Fyncheden, knight, quer., Robert de Swylyngton, " le uncle," chivaler, def, of the manor of SLAGHTHWAYT : To hold to William and his heirs ; he gave 200 marks. [6]
to have been acquisitive. It raises another interesting question.
Your post mentions Alice having given Howley Hall (presumably hereditary
Finchenden property) to Adam and Lawrence got Farnely/Woodsome but what
happened to the rest such as Wrenthorpe and the share of Hickleton?
I know that by 1500 Slaithwaite ended up with the Kayes of Woodsome and
maybe it was included with Woodsome from the start. Both, whether by
coincidence or intent, were previously Tyas properties. But did the
other properties also go to other Kaye children, possibly to daughters?
Apart from Lawrence only one other son of John Kaye seems to have
received attention in Flowers' visitation and that was because one of
the marriage of one of his descendants. That fits with the suggestion
that Lawrence was the only son of a Finchenden daughter but, given that
John Kaye had 6 daughters some of these could also be Finchenden
descendants. At the moment this is out of scope for me but presents a
possible line of enquiry for anyone researching those areas.
johnmw...@gmail.com
Oct 24, 2014, 3:42:17 AM10/24/14
to
The mention of Methley in your post jogged my memory about something that I was looking at recently concerning Methley. It would appear that Sir William, or perhaps his widow, granted Methley to the Hospital of St. Nicholas in Pontefract. Some years later in 1410, king Henry IV agreed that the Hospital could grant Methley to Robert Waterton, esquire in exchange for the advowsons of Gosberkirk, Lincolnshire and Wath, Yorkshire [1]. This is how the Waterton family came to hold Methley. Of course the old pedigree makers make Robert's brother John Waterton marry an heiress of the Methley family, but there's no evidence of this at all.
Regards,
John
[1] Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry IV, vol. 4, p. 198.
Ian Goddard
Oct 24, 2014, 4:52:03 AM10/24/14
to
On 24/10/14 08:42, johnmw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The mention of Methley in your post jogged my memory about something that I was looking at recently concerning Methley. It would appear that Sir William, or perhaps his widow, granted Methley to the Hospital of St. Nicholas in Pontefract. Some years later in 1410, king Henry IV agreed that the Hospital could grant Methley to Robert Waterton, esquire in exchange for the advowsons of Gosberkirk, Lincolnshire and Wath, Yorkshire [1]. This is how the Waterton family came to hold Methley. Of course the old pedigree makers make Robert's brother John Waterton marry an heiress of the Methley family, but there's no evidence of this at all.
Thanks, John. I suppose a religious donation was to be expected.
>
> The mention of Methley in your post jogged my memory about something that I was looking at recently concerning Methley. It would appear that Sir William, or perhaps his widow, granted Methley to the Hospital of St. Nicholas in Pontefract. Some years later in 1410, king Henry IV agreed that the Hospital could grant Methley to Robert Waterton, esquire in exchange for the advowsons of Gosberkirk, Lincolnshire and Wath, Yorkshire [1]. This is how the Waterton family came to hold Methley. Of course the old pedigree makers make Robert's brother John Waterton marry an heiress of the Methley family, but there's no evidence of this at all.
I don't have fines for that period but I did come across some of the
other properties being disposed of in the C16th but they could have gone
through quite a lot of hands in the interim.
Collins (Kirkburton PRs vol 1) goes into the line of Richard, 4th son of
John, quite a bit. By 1529 one of them was one of the two most highly
taxed men in Huddersfield and bought Dalton. In the end they became the
Kayes of Heath Hall.
Going back a few posts you mentioned Alice giving Howley to Adam. Do
you have the documentation for that - it might fill in a few details?
I'm currently working down the valley looking at the Kayes in the PRs
but it seems unlikely to get me any further back than people born about
1500 and presumably many will descend from the younger sons. However
there's one branch that might well connect to Woodsome.
johnmw...@gmail.com
Oct 24, 2014, 5:31:49 AM10/24/14
to
I can't remember exactly where I can across the information about Alice giving Howley to Adam Mirfield. It might have been in Yorkshire Notes and Queries, vol. 2, but I don't think that there is any documentary proof of the gift.
Regards,
John
Ian Goddard
Oct 26, 2014, 1:41:15 PM10/26/14
to
On 24/10/14 10:31, johnmw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> It might have been in Yorkshire Notes and Queries, vol. 2, but I don't think that there is any documentary proof of the gift.
Thanks John,
>
> It might have been in Yorkshire Notes and Queries, vol. 2, but I don't think that there is any documentary proof of the gift.
As they say, you can't win 'em all.
0 new messages