Joan (? Douglas) Dacre`s possible Magna Carta descent
Jwc...@aol.com
According to Douglas Richardson recent volumes on
Plantagenet and Magna Carta Ancestry, William, Lord Dacre father of that
Thomas, Lord Dacre who married Philippa Neville was married to Joan, said to be an
illegitimate daughter of James Douglas, 2nd Earl of Douglas and 11th (15th)
Earl of Mar. The Following Magna Carta Descent could hold true for the Dacre
family:
1 Richard de Clare, Earl of Clare and Hertford married Amice of Gloucester
2 Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Clare, Hertford and Gloucester married Isabel
Marshal
3 Isabel de Clare married Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale
4 Robert Brus, Lord of Annandale, jure uxoris Earl of Carrick married
Margaret, Countess of Carrick
5 Christain Brus married Gratney/ Gartnait, 7th (11th) Earl of Mar
6 Donald II, 8th (12th) Earl of Mar married Isabel (? Stewart of Bonkyll)
7 Margaret, 10th ( 14th) Countess of Mar married William Douglas, 1st
Earl of Douglas and jure uxoris Earl of Mar
8 James Douglas, 2nd Earl of Douglas and 11th (15th) Earl of Mar by an
unknown mistress
9 Joan Douglas (said to be daughter) married William, Lord Dacre
See MCA pp 731-32 for generations 1-4, generation 5 is mentioned, but
not that spouse but see Weis MC Line 43 B gen 5 Which cites SP V: pp 577-79
for that marriage.,see also Ronald McNair Scott " Robert the Bruce, King of
Scots" pp 82, 214
Gen 6 Robert the Bruce pp 81, 216-217, BXP 1883 (reprint) p 174 Douglas,
Earl of Douglas.
Gen 6-8 Ibid pp 174-175
Gen 8 and 9 MCA p 252, RPA p 250, Faris PA 1 p76 says Joan Douglas without
mention of parentage BXP 1883 (reprint) p152 gives Joan, illegitimate
daughter of James, Earl of Douglas
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Mark B
Dacre--Joan Douglas match. However, CP seems to
question the authenticity of the claim in a footnote,
which says that if Joan were the daughter of James,
Earl of Douglas, and if she were the mother of Thomas,
Lord Dacre, then James would have been a grandfather
at about age 29.
CP also lists a second wife, Mary (no surname given),
for William, Lord Dacre.
Does anyone know of more definitive evidence on the
identity of Thomas, Lord Dacre's mother?
Mark Briscoe
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ToddWhi...@aol.com
descent_
(http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-07/1121051507)
This is far from being contemporary evidence but William Hutchinson in his
entry on the parish of Dacre on pp. 467-476 of The History of the County of
Cumberland and some Places Adjacent... (1794) also mentions the Dacre and
Douglas union but does not provide the bride's father. The source for this was a
stained glass window allegedly installed by Thomas Lord Dacre of the North in
the sixteenth century.
"Taken out of the Hall Windowe, in the Castle of Kirkofwald, Mense-Octobris
1604.
1, Humfrey, married Anne Bardolf, reigned xxi years, buried in Holbech.
2, Richard, married Ifobel Beaumond, reigned xxvi years, buried in Holbech.
3, William, married Cecely Gray de Cotnore, reigned xxii years, buried in
Holbech.
4, Thomas I. married Anne Mowbray, reigned xxxvi years, buried in Dacre.
5, Humfrey II. married Joan Harrington, reigned xviii years, buried in Dacre.
6, Thomas II. married Alice Morley, reigned xx years, buried in Prefcott.
7, Randulph I. married Joane Rofs, reigned lii years, buried in Dacre.
8, William II. married Anne Derwentwater, reigned xxiiii years, buried in
Prefcott.
9, Randolph II. married Matilda Multon, made Baron the 26th year of Henry
III, buried in Lanercost.
10, Thomas III. mar. Catharine Lucie, reigned xxv years, buried in Lanercost.
11, Thomas IIII. married Elizabeth Fitz William, reigned xxvii years, buried
in Holbech.
12, Randolph III. Priefte, reigned vi years, buried in Hatton, Lancafhire.
13, Hugh I. mar. Elizabeth Maxwell, reigned xxv years, buried in Lanercost.
14, William III. married Joane Douglas, ----------- buried in Lanercost.
15, Thomas V. mar. Philippa Nevill, reigned lix years, buried in Lanercost."
and so on...
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< 4 Robert Brus, Lord of Annandale, jure uxoris Earl of Carrick married
Margaret, Countess of Carrick
5 Christain Brus married Gratney/ Gartnait, 7th (11th) Earl of Mar >>
Is Christian really the daughter of Margaret of Carrick?
Why do I have her as another daughter to Robert, Lord of Annandale and Isabel
de Clare (therefore the aunt of where you have her).
Any primary document to confirm her placement one generation younger?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< 7 Margaret, 10th ( 14th) Countess of Mar married William Douglas, 1st
Earl of Douglas and jure uxoris Earl of Mar >>
I'm all confused. I have this Margaret as dau of Thomas Stewart, 2nd Earl of
Angus by which she is Countess of Angus, which she resigned to her son George.
And that is was Thomas who was 9th Earl of Mar who was the child of Donald,
Earl of Mar and Isabel Stewart. Here you have it as his wife being their child.
I would appreciate any clarification on this issue.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Jwc...@aol.com
Christain Brus was one of Robert I, King of Scots sisters.
Isabel de Clare was her grandmother, not her aunt. Christain / Christina married
1st Gratney / Gartnait, Earl of Mar, 2nd Sir Christopher Seton and 3rd
Andrew Moray. I beleve Donald II was her only child and by Isabel Stewart He was
father of Thomas, Earl of Mar who married Margaret, daughter of Thomas
Stewart, Earl of Angus and a daughter Margaret of Mar who married William Douglas,
1st Earl of Douglas, who became Earl of Mar in her right on Thomas` deeath
without issue. Thomas` widow probably was allowed to remain on the Mar estate and
William became involved with her. She was mother , apparently by him of a
illegitimate son, George Douglas, 1st Earl of Angus. Margaret of Mar, her
sister-in-law was the mother of William`s legitimate heir James Douglas, Earl of
Douglas and of Mar.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont
, Maine USA
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> In a message dated 7/10/05 7:22:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Jwc...@aol.com writes:
>
> << 4 Robert Brus, Lord of Annandale, jure uxoris Earl of Carrick
> married
> Margaret, Countess of Carrick
> 5 Christain Brus married Gratney/ Gartnait, 7th (11th) Earl of
> Mar >>
>
> Is Christian really the daughter of Margaret of Carrick?
> Why do I have her as another daughter to Robert, Lord of Annandale
> and Isabel de Clare (therefore the aunt of where you have her).
CP VIII, 403 has Xtian as the dau of Marg of Carrick.
>
> Any primary document to confirm her placement one generation younger?
No, what's one of those? :-)
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Christain Brus was one of Robert I, King of Scots sisters.
Isabel de Clare was her grandmother, not her aunt. >>
You misunderstood me. I am suggesting that Isabel of Clare was her mother.
Diane Sheppard
SP, vol 2, 434-435 (Bruce, earls of Carrick) and Vol 5, p. 579 also
state that she was the sister of King Robert Bruce, and therefore,
daughter of Marjorie of Carrick. Her marriages also support this view.
Robert Bruce and Isabel de Clare were married in May 1240. Robert
Bruce and Marjorie of Carrick were married in 1271. Christian was
married to Gratney earl of Mar about 1296 and bore him two children,
Donald earl of Mar & Ellen (m Sir John Menteith between 1320-1323).
She married Sir Christian Seton after Gratney's death in 1305 (before
September) and was the mother of Sir Alexander Seton. Christopher
Seton died in 1306. She was a prisoner from 1306 until at least 1314.
Third, she married Sir Andrew Moray, lord of Bothwell. A dispensation
for their marriage was granted October 12,1326. They were related in
the fourth degree. She did not have any children by her third
marriage. She died in 1357, when she is last mentioned in the
Exchequer Rolls.
Hope this helps,
Diane Sheppard
Jwc...@aol.com
I`m curious as to what record made CP arrive at James
Douglas ` being twenty- nine in October, 1387 when his grandson Thomas was born.
According to the Gazetteer for Scotland, Before 1371 at the ripe old age of
less than 13 years (going by CP`s age estimate, He conspired to take the crown
from King David II (his grandfather Donald II `s 1st cousin a generation
removed) maybe it was that dastardly Comyn blood that made him do it. David II
didn`t have any, being the son of Elizabeth de Burgh, Robert I`s second wife. In
any event when that king died in 1371 He was succeeded by his nephew Robert the
High Steward, who was the only child of Walter the High Steward and Princess
Marjorie of the Scots, the only surviving child of Robert I`s 1st marriage to
Gratney, Earl of Mar`s sister Isabel. Robert II was married (after a fashion)
to his long time mistress Elizabeth Mure and granted James Douglas the hand of
their eldest daughter Isabel in marriage in 1371/ 73. all this occurred
during the lifetime of James Douglas` father William.