Guy de Chièvres and his wife Ida
xager8on
parents where.
Leo cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag, Marburg,
Schwennicke, Detlev (Ed.), Reference: VII 88, where she is identified
as Ida d'Ath whose parents are identified as NN d'Ath and Aleide de
Rameru.
Turton line 191 has her as Ida de Hainault.
Not having ES as a reference I am unable to verify her parentage. Any
assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Peter Stewart
"xager8on" <xager...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c15f845a-d7d2-4d7e...@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
There are two sources cited in ES for table 88, and the only relevant one is
*Histoire de la maison de Gavre et de Liedekerke* by Guy de Liedekerke
(Brussels, 1957). I haven't seen this, but it's a mystery why the parents of
Ida were identified as "NN d'Ath and Aleide de Rameru" when for centuries
they had been given as Walter, lord of Ath and Ada de Roucy, daughter of
Hilduin, count of Arcies-sur-Aube & Montdidier, seigneur (called count) of
Ramerupt and Adela (or Alix), heiress of Roucy.
Hermann of Tournai, writing in the mid-12th century, recorded the parentage
of Ada and her three marriages - first to Geoffroy, seigneur of Guise,
second to Walter of Ath, third to Thierry, seigneur of Avesnes with whom she
built Lessies abbey where she lived out her last years, died and was buried
("Hilduinus namque comes Rociensis ... duxit conjugem Adeladam germanam
domni Manasse Remorum archiepiscopi, ex qua genuit Ebalum comitem de Roci,
et Andream comitem de Rameruth ... septemque filias ... Quintam, nomine
Adam, duxit Godefridus de Gusgia ... Defuncto autem Godefrido, eadem Ada
accepit maritum Walterum de Aath. Quo mortuo, accepit tertium maritum
Theodericum de Avesniis, et cum eo exstruxit conobium quod dicitur de
Lesciis in propria possessione sua; defunctoque eodem Theoderico, ipsa se ex
toto contulit eidem conobio, ubi pluribus annis religiose vivens, defuncta
et sepulta est").
The other source cited, Ernest Warlop, does not cover this part of the
family.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ider4r$87t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
On checking further, I suggest entirely disregarding the parts of table 88
in ES neue Folge VII which depart from information provided by Ernest
Warlop.
The peculiar identification of Ida's parents as "NN d'Ath and Aleide de
Rameru" presumably came from Guy de Liedekerke, along with the next
generation - Ida's husband Guy de Chièvres is shown as occurring in 1117 and
they are given a daughter Eve, with the date range 1143/79, who was married
to: (1) Jean de Chin, seigneur of Berlaimont (dead by 1143); (2) Razo III of
Gavre (died in 1150) and (3) Nicholas III, seigneur of Rumigny & Florennes
(dead by 1179). However, this is far from accurate.
Guy de Chièvres was living after 1117 - he occurred as witness in a charter
of 1120/27 for Saint-Denis de Brocqueroie. The daughter of Guy and Ida was
usually known as Damison, which was wrongly interpreted in a later epitaph
as "dame Idon" so that she is often called Ida after her mother, but she
occurs as Eve in a charter for Ghislengien abbey ("domina Eva de Cirvia, que
dicitur Domisons, dedit in elemosinam pro anima viri sui Razonis de Gavera")
and also in the confirmation of this gift by Pope Alexander III in 1179. She
died after her third husband.
Giselbert of Mons recorded that Damison de Chièvres married first not Jean
but the famous Gilles de Chin - subject of a 13th-century epic poem - who
was killed in 1137 ("Egidius de Cin ... ex parte uxoris sue Damison de
Cirvia ipsum castrum Cirviam possedit"), secondly Rasso of Gavre who was
killed in the siege of Roucort in 1149 ("occisus fuit miles probus Rasso de
Gavra, qui post decessum Egidii de Cin Damison de Cirvia habuit uxorem") and
thirdly Nicholas of Rumigny & Florennes who was dead by 1179, probably in
1175 ("[Nicholaus] qui et Ruminium et Florinas castra possedit ... Nicholaus
hic bona terre sue plurimum ampliavit, et de uxore sua Damison de Cirvia
filios habuit milites probos").
Peter Stewart
xager8on
Im trying to get the van Ath family correct thru Ada de Roucy who m.
firstly GEOFFROY Seigneur de Guise, m. secondly GAUTHIER Seigneur de
Ath, and m. thirdly THIERRY Seigneur d'Avesnes, and just started
researching it. (Ada being dau. of Hildouin de Montdidier by Alice de
Roucy), but her placement is of question.
ES 8 45b (which I am unable to view) referenced by Leo van Pas:
Walter (Gauthier de Roeux) - Ada de Roucy
|
|
Beatrix - Arnould de Hainault (d. aft 1117)
Turton 191
Walter (Gauthier de Roeux) - Ada de Roucy - Godfrey de Guise (d. abt
1121)
| |
| |
Beatrix Guy (d. aft 1124)
(same as above)
What I am trying to get my arms around is if the above is true, then
this same Ada would have been very old since her first husband was
Geoffroy, or she married very young.
Some trees on the internet have separated her into 2 different people.
One as a daughter of Ebles (son of Hildouin de Montdidier by Alice de
Roucy) and the other as a sister of Ebles. But nothing is corroborated
by sources.
Thanks for your assistance.
WJho...@aol.com
xager...@hotmail.com writes:
> What I am trying to get my arms around is if the above is true, then
> this same Ada would have been very old since her first husband was
> Geoffroy, or she married very young.
>
> Some trees on the internet have separated her into 2 different people.
> One as a daughter of Ebles (son of Hildouin de Montdidier by Alice de
> Roucy) and the other as a sister of Ebles. But nothing is corroborated
> by sources. >>
>
Turton is putrid garbage. Thrown Turton into the cesspool and start over.
"Trees on the internet" are utter useful .... *expletive deleted*
Never ever ever ever use trees on the internet as a source :)
Now being casting your various names against Google BOOKS not Google
Do not ever use google to search for a medieval person. Not ever. Never.
Never use Google for this.
Only Google Books.
Even so, many google books are worthless, but at least you'll be on a
better path.
At the moment I have Ada, the daughter of Hildouin as having been born
anytime between 1031 and 1062.
I haven't really researched her, I just picked years that didn't make her
too young or too old to be a mother.
Medlands has a few things on her, but not too much. I'm sure Peter could
tell us a few things more to narrow her age better.
But never use Turton :)
Peter Stewart
I can't see a chronological problem here except for the erroneous date "d.
abt 1121" attached to her first husband Geoffrey, coming from Turton who
misnamed him Godfrey. He was dead well before then, perhaps by 40 years or
more.
There are several independent sources naming Ada as one person, a daughter
of Hilduin and Adela, with three husbands. The known daughters of her
brother Ebles were Ermengarde (living 1157, wife of Gervais of Bazoches),
Mamilia (aka Manilla, Maximilla, living 1122, wife of Hugo of Le Puiset and
Adalbert of Namur, both counts of Jaffa) and Agnes (wife of Simon, count of
Clefmont).
Peter Stewart