HASTANG-SWYNNERTON
Allen John Mallory
de Swynnerton. Joan was a daughter of Sir John de Hastang (? - 1368) and
Maud Trussell ( ? - c. 1369).
I do not have access to CP and wonder if the reference sheds any light on
which Roger de Swynnerton Joan married?
Any assistance will be most appreciated.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Allen John Mallory" <allen....@snet.net> wrote:
> I believe CP 6 p. 338 may address the marriage of Joan de Hastang to Roger
> de Swynnerton. Joan was a daughter of Sir John de Hastang (? - 1368) and
> Maud Trussell ( ? - c. 1369).
>
> I do not have access to CP and wonder if the reference sheds any light on
> which Roger de Swynnerton Joan married?
CP VI merely adds on p. 342 a note (k) saying: "Ancestor, vol vii, pp.
236 et seq."
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org
Rosie Bevan
There's a pedigree given on page 243 of this article, (which incidentally is
entitled "On some forgotten Swynnertons of the fourteenth century" by
Charles Swynnerton, pp.216-243).
It is partly reproduced below.
1.Sir Roger Swynnerton, lord of Swynnerton 1298-1338=Maude, possible parents
of
2.John de Swynnerton of Whitmore, Staffs., a younger son, occurs 1345,
1352,1362=Joan, relict in 1362
3.Roger de Swynnerton of Whitmore, occurring 1375-1418 d.s.p.=Joan
Hastang
3.John de Swynnerton of Whitmore. Occurring 1382, 1384, 1407
4.Roger de Sywnnerton of Whitmore, Butterton. Occurs 1407-1445.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Rosie
James Trabue
You failed to mention the name, etc. of the publication in your post. Is
there anything which would help to further identify Anne Swinnerton of
Hylton Staffordshire (dau. of Thomas) who married John Mitton, d. 1500.
Jim
> ______________________________
Rosie Bevan
The reference was cited in Tim's post below as "Ancestor, vol vii, pp. 236
et seq."
I'm afraid the article does not mention Anne Swinnerton.
Douglas Richardson
Please find below a copy of one of my earlier posts from the archives
which shows the ancestry of Anne (Swinnerton) Mitton going back
several generations.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Message 1 in thread
From: Douglas Richardson (royala...@msn.com)
Subject: New Royal Line for Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis (WasJohn Mytton
and Anne Swinnerton)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-09-30 10:58:14 PST
Dear Newsgroup:
The following is an all new royal line for the colonial immigrant,
Elizabeth (Marshall) Lewis. The descent comes through Anne
Swinnerton, wife of John Mytton, about whom Paul Vogel posted this
past week. This descent features a hitherto unnoticed marriage and
daughter for Joyce la Zouche (Generations 4 and 5 below). Should
anyone know of another colonist who connects to this new line, I'd
appreciate knowing about it.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
1. ALAN LA ZOUCHE, married ALICE DE BELMES.
2. ROGER LA ZOUCHE, married MARGARET BISET.
3. WILLIAM LA ZOUCHE, died 1272, married MAUD DE HOBRIDGE.
4. JOYCE LA ZOUCHE, married (lst) NICHOLAS DE WHELTON, died c. 1267;
(2nd) ROBERT DE MORTIMER, died 1287.
5. FELICE DE WHELTON, married PHILIP DE MONTGOMERY, died 1295; (2nd)
WILLIAM DE NEVILLE, Knt., died 1330.
6. ANNE DE MONTGOMERY, born 1291, married JOHN DE SWINNERTON, Knt.,
died 1340.
7. JOHN DE SWINNERTON, Knt., born 1309, died 1379, married CHRISTIAN
_____,
8. JOHN DE SWINNERTON, born about 1349, living 1408, married CLEMENCE
_____.
9. THOMAS SWINNERTON, Esq., born about 1401, died 1448, married
ELIZABETH BONDE.
10. ANNE SWINNERTON, died 1470, married JOHN MITTON, Esq., died 1500.
11. JOHN MITTON, Esq., died 1533, married CONSTANCE BEAUMONT.
12. JOYCE MITTON, married JOHN HARPESFIELD, Gent.
13. EDWARD HARPESFIELD (or MITTON), Esq., married ANNE SKRIMSHIRE.
14. KATHERINE MITTON, married ROGER MARSHALL, Gent., died 1612.
15. ELIZABETH MARSHALL, immigrant to Maine, married THOMAS LEWIS,
Gent.
jim...@earthlink.net ("James Trabue") wrote in message news:<011501c2df4f$585e9840$04000005@oemcomputer>...
Nathaniel Taylor
"Allen John Mallory" <allen....@snet.net> asked about which Roger de
Swinnerton married Joan de Hastang:
>I believe CP 6 p. 338 may address the marriage of Joan de Hastang to
>Roger de Swynnerton. Joan was a daughter of Sir John de Hastang
>(? - 1368) and Maud Trussell ( ? - c. 1369).
>I do not have access to CP and wonder if the reference sheds any light
>on which Roger de Swynnerton Joan married?
Tim Powys-Lybbe replied:
>CP VI merely adds on p. 342 a note (k) saying: "Ancestor, vol vii, pp.
>236 et seq."
Rosie Bevan added the import of this article:
> There's a pedigree given on page 243 of this article ...
> "On some forgotten Swynnertons of the fourteenth century" by
> Charles Swynnerton, pp.216-243:
>
> 1.Sir Roger Swynnerton, lord of Swynnerton 1298-1338=Maude, possible
> parents of
> 2.John de Swynnerton of Whitmore, Staffs., a younger son, occurs 1345,
> 1352,1362=Joan, relict in 1362
> 3.Roger de Swynnerton of Whitmore, occurring 1375-1418 d.s.p.=Joan
> Hastang
> 3.John de Swynnerton of Whitmore. Occurring 1382, 1384, 1407
> 4.Roger de Sywnnerton of Whitmore, Butterton, att 1407-1445.
Doug Richardson added a different descent from this line to an American
colonist, and an ancestry for the wife of John de Swinnerton:
>6. ANNE DE MONTGOMERY, born 1291, married JOHN DE SWINNERTON, Knt.,
>died 1340.
>
>7. JOHN DE SWINNERTON, Knt., born 1309, died 1379, married CHRISTIAN
>_____,
>
>8. JOHN DE SWINNERTON, born about 1349, living 1408, married CLEMENCE
>_____.
>
>9. THOMAS SWINNERTON, Esq., born about 1401, died 1448, married
>ELIZABETH BONDE.
>
>10. ANNE SWINNERTON, died 1470, married JOHN MITTON, Esq., died 1500.
>
> <...>
I have a couple of questions about all this. According to George T. A.
Bridgeman's study, _An account of the family of Swynnerton, of
Swynnerton & elsewhere in the county of Stafford (Wm. Salt. Coll. hist.
Staffordshire, 7.2, 1886), there are many uncertainties in the
Swynnerton pedigree in these generations.
He gives:
=====
<earlier generations omitted...>
1. Roger son of Stephen de Swynnerton, Lord of Swynnerton, 1286; d. c.
1298 = Joan: Bridgeman puts in brackets "[dau. of Sir Robert de
Hastang?] relict. 1298, 99."
sons:
a. Roger, a minor in 1300; lord of Swynnerton; died (w/IPM) 1338. m.
Matilda, relict in 1357-8 [sic]
b. John de Swynnerton of Hilton, kt., d. 1340; m. Anna, dau. Philip de
Montgomery (see Richardson's pedigree, above).
c. Richard, living 1350
d. Nicholas, clerk, rector of Muckleston & Barrow, d. 1357
e. Stephen, living 1348
f. Alexander, d. bef. 1324.
Roger (a) had a long & well-documented career, though the identity of
his wife isn't known. His children include:
a1. Roger, kt., ospvp 1326/7, leaving widow Maud.
a2. Robert, clerk, his father's heir at IPM, 1338, aet. 26; dsp. 1349.
a3. Thomas, heir to his bro. Robert, d. 1361; m. Maud [dau. Sir Robert
Holand]. Issue.
a4. Richard, clerk, d. 1346.
a5. Humphrey, m. Hilaria; issue.
<etc.>
=====
So, clearly Bridgeman doesn't seem to mention the John de Swynnerton of
Whitmore, Staffs., (no. 2 in Rosie's pedigree from the _Ancestor_
article), though the John of Doug's pedigree is there as (b) in my
precis of Bridgeman's account.
So apparently the _Ancestor_ article updates Bridgeman on the filiation
of at least one additional branch of the Swinnertons. I would like to
know whether there is any new information out there on the wives of
these Swinnertons? Bridgeman simply wasn't very authoritative or
convincing on the identity of the Swinnerton wives.
First, I am bemused by the coincidence of Bridgeman's annotation of
'Joan de Hastang' as wife of Roger de Swynnerton who d. 1298, which
mirrors this other 'Joan de Hastang', wife of another Roger de
Swynnerton 4 generations and 100 years later, in the original query!
Second, I am not quite convinced by his identification of 'Maud' as
widow of the Roger who d. 1338, based on a 1357/58 dower deed. I've
recently been pointed to some websites that purport to show one Margaret
HAUGHTON as wife of this Roger de Swinnerton (d. 1338), including Paul
McBride's website which cites Ronny Bodine's Poynz ancestry among
sources for this generation. Can anyone cite any evidence for the
identity of the wife of the Roger de Swinnerton who d. 1338?
[Another thorny one is the identity of the wife of Sir Thomas de
Swinnerton, said in a later Visitation pedigree to be Maud Holand (with
royal descent). I still would like to see proof of that.]
In addition to the colonial descent Doug provides from John (d. 1340),
who bypasses the Holand descent, there are several well-circulated
colonial descents from Thomas de Swinnerton, (a3), son of Roger who d.
1338: Gary Roberts lists the Eltonheads of VA, Obadiah Bruen of CT,
Thomas Wynne of PA, Charles Lowndes of SC, Christopher Lowndes of MD,
and an early explorer / author Rev. John Brereton. Roberts also lists
Richard More, William Wentworth, and Christopher Lawson, though their
common ancestor Alice (Swinnerton) Gresley appears to have been sister,
and not daughter, of Sir Thomas Swinnerton (I have a short piece on this
on my website, derived from a posting I made to this group several years
ago about this).
So: I would appreciate any leads to good, reasoned discussion of the
wife and children of Sir Roger de Swynnerton, d. 1338, apparent ancestor
of many colonists, or of Sir Roger's mother Joan (said by Bridgeman to
have been another 'Joan de Hastang'.
Everyone confused yet?
Nat Taylor
Cristopher Nash
Roger de Swinnerton who d. on or bef. 1297/8. CP calls him of
Isewall, grandson & h. of John de Swynnerton, 'husband of Margery'
[CP XII, Pt. 1, 584-85]. This clause appears intended to make
possible - though choosing not to provide -- a coherent ancestry for
Roger by differentiating betw. 2 contemporaneous Johns, of whom there
is scattered desultory discussion, but so far as I can see, CP fails
to achieve that with much clarity. (E.g. CP declines - no doubt
owing to lack of documentation/conviction - to propose outright the
paternity of Stephen fa. of Roger.) Has anyone teased out this knot?
Just in passing: CP commends Wm Salt articles 'VII, pt 2' & 'New
Series III' for 'full details' on the Swinnerton fam. I understand,
Nat, that the _Ancestor_ article postdates and >updates Bridgeman< -
i.e 'Bridgeman 7.2, 1886'. Can I assume that these questions are
equally unresolved by the vaguely-cited New Series III article?
Cheers,
Cris
Nathaniel Taylor <nta...@post.harvard.edu> wrote -
--