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Agnès de Fiennes, nun at Maubuisson Abbey
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Douglas Richardson
Feb 2, 2012, 5:17:05 PM2/2/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Recently while I was searching for new information on the Fiennes
family, I came across a reference to a certain Agnès de Fiennes, who
was a nun at Maubuisson Abbey sometime in the period, 1314-1328. I
presume this Agnès de Fiennes is a hitherto unknown daughter of
Guillaume de Fiennes (died 1302), seigneur of Fiennes and Tingry (Pas-
de-Calais), and, in England, of Wendover, Buckinghamshire, Fyfield and
Lambourne, Essex, etc., by his wife, Blanche de Brienne (a descendant
of King Henry II of England). Guillaume de Fiennes and his wife,
Blanche, have several other known children, including two daughters
who came to England, namely Margaret (wife of Edmund de Mortimer,
Knt., 1st Lord Mortimer), and Joan (wife of John Wake, Knt., 1st Lord
Wake).
Reference to Agnès de Fiennes is made in the book, Maillard, Comptes
Royaux (1314–1328) (1961): 38. A snippet view of this information may
be viewed at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=%22Agnes%20de%20Fiennes%22&psj=1&gs_upl=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&psj=1&ei=6gMrT_zKJcjTiAL04smYCg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=20d79f0a81e4895c&biw=1366&bih=609
The snippet view states the following:
“Pour deniers paiez a suer Agnès de Fiennes, nonnain de Maubuisson,
par lettres du Roy donnees le premier jour de Janvier, l’an susdit,
pour certain moulins qui furent le segneur de Fiennes ou elle prenout
certain rente chascun an … ” END OF QUOTE.
Basically, the passage states that sister Agnès de Fiennes, a nun at
Maubuisson Abbey, was receiving a yearly payment from certain mills
which formerly belonged to the seigneur of Fiennes (who presumably was
then deceased). Because she was receiving an annuity from Fiennes
lands, the passage implies that Agnès de Fiennes was the daughter of a
seigneur of Fiennes. If so, this should refer to Guillaume de
Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes, who was slain with many other magnates
at the Battle of Courtrai 11 July 1302.
The placement of Agnès de Fiennes at Mauibuisson Abbey is significant
as Guillaume de Fiennes' father-in-law, Jean de Brienne, Butler of
France (died 1296), was a benefactor of Maubuisson Abbey and was
buried there.
Agnès de Fiennes is not likely to have been a member of the next
generation of the Fiennes family. I say that because Guillaume de
Fiennes' son and heir, Jean de Fiennes, did not die until 1340. Jean
de Fiennes himself had a daughter named Agnès de Fiennes, who was a
nun at Messines Abbey in 1355. For this younger Agnès de Fiennes,
see Berlière, Suppliques d’Innocent VI (1352–1362) (1911): 265–266
(“Il y avait en 1355 a Bourbourg une religieuse, fille de noble Jean
de Fiennes, sœur d’Agnès, religieuse de Messines [Reg. Avin. 131, ff.
279–280].”).
If someone has access to a copy of Comptes Royaux, I'd appreciate it
greatly if they would post a copy of the full record relating to Agnès
de Fiennes from that book.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Recently while I was searching for new information on the Fiennes
family, I came across a reference to a certain Agnès de Fiennes, who
was a nun at Maubuisson Abbey sometime in the period, 1314-1328. I
presume this Agnès de Fiennes is a hitherto unknown daughter of
Guillaume de Fiennes (died 1302), seigneur of Fiennes and Tingry (Pas-
de-Calais), and, in England, of Wendover, Buckinghamshire, Fyfield and
Lambourne, Essex, etc., by his wife, Blanche de Brienne (a descendant
of King Henry II of England). Guillaume de Fiennes and his wife,
Blanche, have several other known children, including two daughters
who came to England, namely Margaret (wife of Edmund de Mortimer,
Knt., 1st Lord Mortimer), and Joan (wife of John Wake, Knt., 1st Lord
Wake).
Reference to Agnès de Fiennes is made in the book, Maillard, Comptes
Royaux (1314–1328) (1961): 38. A snippet view of this information may
be viewed at the following weblink:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=%22Agnes%20de%20Fiennes%22&psj=1&gs_upl=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp&psj=1&ei=6gMrT_zKJcjTiAL04smYCg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=20d79f0a81e4895c&biw=1366&bih=609
The snippet view states the following:
“Pour deniers paiez a suer Agnès de Fiennes, nonnain de Maubuisson,
par lettres du Roy donnees le premier jour de Janvier, l’an susdit,
pour certain moulins qui furent le segneur de Fiennes ou elle prenout
certain rente chascun an … ” END OF QUOTE.
Basically, the passage states that sister Agnès de Fiennes, a nun at
Maubuisson Abbey, was receiving a yearly payment from certain mills
which formerly belonged to the seigneur of Fiennes (who presumably was
then deceased). Because she was receiving an annuity from Fiennes
lands, the passage implies that Agnès de Fiennes was the daughter of a
seigneur of Fiennes. If so, this should refer to Guillaume de
Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes, who was slain with many other magnates
at the Battle of Courtrai 11 July 1302.
The placement of Agnès de Fiennes at Mauibuisson Abbey is significant
as Guillaume de Fiennes' father-in-law, Jean de Brienne, Butler of
France (died 1296), was a benefactor of Maubuisson Abbey and was
buried there.
Agnès de Fiennes is not likely to have been a member of the next
generation of the Fiennes family. I say that because Guillaume de
Fiennes' son and heir, Jean de Fiennes, did not die until 1340. Jean
de Fiennes himself had a daughter named Agnès de Fiennes, who was a
nun at Messines Abbey in 1355. For this younger Agnès de Fiennes,
see Berlière, Suppliques d’Innocent VI (1352–1362) (1911): 265–266
(“Il y avait en 1355 a Bourbourg une religieuse, fille de noble Jean
de Fiennes, sœur d’Agnès, religieuse de Messines [Reg. Avin. 131, ff.
279–280].”).
If someone has access to a copy of Comptes Royaux, I'd appreciate it
greatly if they would post a copy of the full record relating to Agnès
de Fiennes from that book.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
Feb 2, 2012, 6:03:13 PM2/2/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
It has long been known that Guillaume de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes,
died 1302, was a near kinsman of Queen Eleanor of Castile, 1st wife of
King Edward I of England. Their kinship is charted in a note
published in Notes & Queries, 4th Series, 7 (1871): 438, which
pedigree may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=f9gEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA438
Guillaume de Fiennes' son and heir, Jean de Fiennes, was directly
acknowledged as kinsman by King Edward II of England in various
contemporary records: Rymer, Fœdera 2(1) (1818): 380 (John de Fienles
styled “kinsman” by King Edward II); Wauters, Table Chronologique des
Chartes et Diplômes imprimés concernant l'Histoire de la Belgique 8
(1892): 697 (Jean de Fiennes styled “kinsman and vassal” [parent et
vassal] by King Edward II of England in 1318); and Cal. Close Rolls,
1313–1318 (1893): 473 (John de Fienles styled “king’s kinsman” by King
Edward II in 1317).
I might mention that the chart in Notes and Queries includes Guillaume
de Fiennes' sister, Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey de Bohun [died
1298), Earl of Hereford and Essex, hereditary Constable of England.
It has been commonly thought that Guillaume and his sister, Maud, were
full siblings, both being the children of Enguerrand de Fiennes,
chevalier, seigneur of Fiennes, by his 1st wife, [?Isabeau], daughter
of Nicolas de Condé, chevalier, seigneur of Condé. While the evidence
is quite good that the mother of Guillaume de Fiennes was a member of
the Condé family, the chronology suggests that Guillaume's sister,
Maud de Fiennes, was actually the child of their father's 2nd wife,
Isabel, who is known to have been a near kinswoman of Queen Eleanor of
Provence, wife of King Henry III of England. If so, then Guillaume
and Maud would only be half-siblings.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey
de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex:
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Marmaduke Beckwith,
Dorothy Beresford, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert
Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, James &
Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Elizabeth & Thomas Coytemore,
William Crymes, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Rowland
Ellis, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, Muriel
Gurdon, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey,
Edmund Jennings, Mary Launce, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton,
Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel,
Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Oliver Manwaring, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip &
Thomas Nelson, Joshua & Rebecca Owen, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge,
Richard Palgrave, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth
Pole, Henry & William Randolph, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger,
Richard Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset,
Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, John West, Hawte Wyatt,
Amy Wyllys.
It has long been known that Guillaume de Fiennes, seigneur of Fiennes,
died 1302, was a near kinsman of Queen Eleanor of Castile, 1st wife of
King Edward I of England. Their kinship is charted in a note
published in Notes & Queries, 4th Series, 7 (1871): 438, which
pedigree may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=f9gEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA438
Guillaume de Fiennes' son and heir, Jean de Fiennes, was directly
acknowledged as kinsman by King Edward II of England in various
contemporary records: Rymer, Fœdera 2(1) (1818): 380 (John de Fienles
styled “kinsman” by King Edward II); Wauters, Table Chronologique des
Chartes et Diplômes imprimés concernant l'Histoire de la Belgique 8
(1892): 697 (Jean de Fiennes styled “kinsman and vassal” [parent et
vassal] by King Edward II of England in 1318); and Cal. Close Rolls,
1313–1318 (1893): 473 (John de Fienles styled “king’s kinsman” by King
Edward II in 1317).
I might mention that the chart in Notes and Queries includes Guillaume
de Fiennes' sister, Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey de Bohun [died
1298), Earl of Hereford and Essex, hereditary Constable of England.
It has been commonly thought that Guillaume and his sister, Maud, were
full siblings, both being the children of Enguerrand de Fiennes,
chevalier, seigneur of Fiennes, by his 1st wife, [?Isabeau], daughter
of Nicolas de Condé, chevalier, seigneur of Condé. While the evidence
is quite good that the mother of Guillaume de Fiennes was a member of
the Condé family, the chronology suggests that Guillaume's sister,
Maud de Fiennes, was actually the child of their father's 2nd wife,
Isabel, who is known to have been a near kinswoman of Queen Eleanor of
Provence, wife of King Henry III of England. If so, then Guillaume
and Maud would only be half-siblings.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey
de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex:
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Marmaduke Beckwith,
Dorothy Beresford, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah
Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert
Brent, Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, James &
Norton Claypoole, St. Leger Codd, Elizabeth & Thomas Coytemore,
William Crymes, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Rowland
Ellis, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Edward Foliot, Thomas Gerard, Muriel
Gurdon, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John Humphrey,
Edmund Jennings, Mary Launce, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton,
Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel,
Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Oliver Manwaring, Anne &
Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip &
Thomas Nelson, Joshua & Rebecca Owen, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge,
Richard Palgrave, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth
Pole, Henry & William Randolph, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger,
Richard Saltonstall, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset,
Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, John West, Hawte Wyatt,
Amy Wyllys.
John
Feb 9, 2012, 4:03:21 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 2, 3:03 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> I might mention that the chart in Notes and Queries includes Guillaume
> de Fiennes' sister, Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey de Bohun [died
> 1298), Earl of Hereford and Essex, hereditary Constable of England.
> It has been commonly thought that Guillaume and his sister, Maud, were
> full siblings, both being the children of Enguerrand de Fiennes,
> chevalier, seigneur of Fiennes, by his 1st wife, [?Isabeau], daughter
> of Nicolas de Condé, chevalier, seigneur of Condé. While the evidence
> is quite good that the mother of Guillaume de Fiennes was a member of
> the Condé family, the chronology suggests that Guillaume's sister,
> Maud de Fiennes, was actually the child of their father's 2nd wife,Isabel, who is known to have been a near kinswoman of Queen Eleanor of
>
> I might mention that the chart in Notes and Queries includes Guillaume
> de Fiennes' sister, Maud de Fiennes, wife of Humphrey de Bohun [died
> 1298), Earl of Hereford and Essex, hereditary Constable of England.
> It has been commonly thought that Guillaume and his sister, Maud, were
> full siblings, both being the children of Enguerrand de Fiennes,
> chevalier, seigneur of Fiennes, by his 1st wife, [?Isabeau], daughter
> of Nicolas de Condé, chevalier, seigneur of Condé. While the evidence
> is quite good that the mother of Guillaume de Fiennes was a member of
> the Condé family, the chronology suggests that Guillaume's sister,
> Provence, wife of King Henry III of England. If so, then Guillaume
> and Maud would only be half-siblings.
>
>
What is the evidence that Enguerrand de Fiennes actually had more than
> and Maud would only be half-siblings.
>
>
one wife? It's well known that the pedigree of the Fiennes family in
Père Anselme's work gives him only a single wife, a unnamed daughter
of the Condé family. I've seen no published work that suggests that
he had a second wife.
I'm aware that the supposed 2nd wife Isabel seems to have first
appeared here in a post by DR in Dec 2002, but he said at that time
that "I'm not convinced that there were necessarily two wives" and
that "[t]his matter deserves further study". Somehow this uncertainty
disappeared by early 2004, but it's not clear how.
The case for the 2nd wife seems to rest on the fact that English
documents mention an 'Isabel" as the wife of Enguerrand, but Anselme's
work doesn't give her her a forename. However a pedigree of the Condé
family in Schwennicke's ESNF, 18:116, names the Condé daughter who
married Enguerrand as Isabeau. It's not much of a stretch to see that
Isabel is an English form of the French name Isabeau - just as her
husband Enguerrand is sometimes referred to as Ingelram or Ingram in
English records (in fact, probably more often than he's called
Enguerrand). it's not necessary to assume two separate indivuals in
either case just because of the name variations.
It's also been noted that Enguerrand's wife "Isabel" is mentioned as a
close kinswoman of Eleanor of Provence, Henry III's wife. But Isabeau
de Condé meets this requirement, as she was a 4th or 5th cousin of
Eleanor of Provence. The connection can be readily traced using the
tables in various volumes of ESNF.
Finally, it's not clear why "the chronology suggests" that Maud de
Fiennes was likely the daughter of a supposed 2nd wife Isabel rather
than the known wife Isabeau. This whole matter seems to be a case of
creating complexity where none is warranted.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 5:41:54 PM2/9/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
If John's basis that Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife was named
Isabeau comes from a chart in a book, then he hasn't done his
research. I've searched through many primary records and secondary
accounts of the Fiennes family, but I haven't encountered any
contemporary evidence which indicates this wife's exact given name. I
have found good evidence that she was the daughter of Nicolas de
Condé, seigneur of Condé, by Élisabeth (or Isabelle), daughter and
heiress of Arnoud (or Arnoul), seigneur of Beloeil and Morialmé. I
refer to Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife in my records as [?
Isabeau], but this given name may be wrong.
I'm not aware that either Nicholas de Condé or his wife, Élisabeth,
are related to Queen Eleanor of Provence. I'm not sure how John is
making that connection. Possibly John has Enguerrand de Fiennes'
first wife placed in the wrong generation of the Condé family, which
is a common error in print.
Enguerrand de Fiennes was born c.1204 and died in old age in 1270.
His widow, Isabel, survived him an additional 26 years. The
implication here is that Isabel was a much younger second wife.
Isabel doesn't occur as Enguerrand's wife until 1257. After her
appearance, she is mentioned regularly in the records, as she seems to
have been a favorite of the English royal family. In 1291, for
example, the king lent to his "kinswoman," Isabel, lady of Fenes, his
houses at Marlborough Castle to dwell in at pleasure, and permitted
her to take firewood for her hearth from the forest as long as she
stayed there. See Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1281–1292 (1893): 446,
which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v2/body/Edward1vol2page0446.pdf
That Isabel de Fiennes was near related to King Edward I's mother,
Queen Eleanor of Provence, is proven by a record cited by Margaret
Howell in her book, Eleanor of Provence (1998): 168, where Mr. Howell
indicates that Isabel wife of Ingram de Fiennes is styled "queen’s
kinswoman" [cognata regine], citing E101/349/26 mm. 1-2. My guess is
that Isabel de Fiennes was related to Queen Eleanor of Provence
through the Queen's Savoy ancestry, as Enguerrand de Fiennes had more
than one dealing with the Queen's uncle, Peter of Savoy.
As for Enguerrand de Fiennes' daughter, Maud de Fiennes, she was
married by agreement dated 15/20 June 1275 and before 20 July 1275
(date of grant). As such, she seems almost certain to have been the
daughter of Enguerrand de Fiennes's 2nd wife, Isabel, as Enguerrand
and Isabel were married in or before 1257 (date of a deed). She
presumably would not be the child of Enguerrand de Fiennes' first
wife, _____ de Condé, who I "guesstimate" was born c.1215, and no
later than c.1228.
If anyone has additional particulars on the Fiennes family, I'd
appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City. Utah
If John's basis that Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife was named
Isabeau comes from a chart in a book, then he hasn't done his
research. I've searched through many primary records and secondary
accounts of the Fiennes family, but I haven't encountered any
contemporary evidence which indicates this wife's exact given name. I
have found good evidence that she was the daughter of Nicolas de
Condé, seigneur of Condé, by Élisabeth (or Isabelle), daughter and
heiress of Arnoud (or Arnoul), seigneur of Beloeil and Morialmé. I
refer to Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife in my records as [?
Isabeau], but this given name may be wrong.
I'm not aware that either Nicholas de Condé or his wife, Élisabeth,
are related to Queen Eleanor of Provence. I'm not sure how John is
making that connection. Possibly John has Enguerrand de Fiennes'
first wife placed in the wrong generation of the Condé family, which
is a common error in print.
Enguerrand de Fiennes was born c.1204 and died in old age in 1270.
His widow, Isabel, survived him an additional 26 years. The
implication here is that Isabel was a much younger second wife.
Isabel doesn't occur as Enguerrand's wife until 1257. After her
appearance, she is mentioned regularly in the records, as she seems to
have been a favorite of the English royal family. In 1291, for
example, the king lent to his "kinswoman," Isabel, lady of Fenes, his
houses at Marlborough Castle to dwell in at pleasure, and permitted
her to take firewood for her hearth from the forest as long as she
stayed there. See Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1281–1292 (1893): 446,
which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v2/body/Edward1vol2page0446.pdf
That Isabel de Fiennes was near related to King Edward I's mother,
Queen Eleanor of Provence, is proven by a record cited by Margaret
Howell in her book, Eleanor of Provence (1998): 168, where Mr. Howell
indicates that Isabel wife of Ingram de Fiennes is styled "queen’s
kinswoman" [cognata regine], citing E101/349/26 mm. 1-2. My guess is
that Isabel de Fiennes was related to Queen Eleanor of Provence
through the Queen's Savoy ancestry, as Enguerrand de Fiennes had more
than one dealing with the Queen's uncle, Peter of Savoy.
As for Enguerrand de Fiennes' daughter, Maud de Fiennes, she was
married by agreement dated 15/20 June 1275 and before 20 July 1275
(date of grant). As such, she seems almost certain to have been the
daughter of Enguerrand de Fiennes's 2nd wife, Isabel, as Enguerrand
and Isabel were married in or before 1257 (date of a deed). She
presumably would not be the child of Enguerrand de Fiennes' first
wife, _____ de Condé, who I "guesstimate" was born c.1215, and no
later than c.1228.
If anyone has additional particulars on the Fiennes family, I'd
appreciate hearing from them here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City. Utah
John
Feb 9, 2012, 7:07:07 PM2/9/12
to
in reply we are presented with a collection of guesses, most of which
could equally support the case that he had only one wife.
Several points can be made here:
1) DR obviously hasn't bothered to check out Schwennicke's ESNF (as
cited) - which he derides as "a chart in a book". Had he done so, he
would have seen immediately that Schwennicke does place Isabeau in the
proper generation of the Condé family, despite DR's doubts on this
point.
2) If DR were a constructive rather than destructive genealogist, he
would use the sources cited by Schwennicke to extend his own
research. After all, secondary sources can often lead to previously
unknown primary sources.
3) It's unfortunate that DR is "not aware that either Nicholas de
Condé or his wife, Élisabeth, are related to Queen Eleanor of
Provence". As mentioned before, he could (if he wished) use
Schwennicke and the sources he cites (and not just in the Condé table)
to reduce his own lack of knowledge on this point. Given the tenor of
DR's reply, I see no reason to provide further assistance in this
matter.
4) The fact that Isabeau (or "Isabel") survived Enguerrand by 26 years
(until 1296) does not necessarily imply that she was "a much younger
2nd wife". Using DR's own "guesstimates" for the birth date of
Isabeau de Condé in conjunction with a death date of 1296 gives a
possible life span for Isabeau/Isabel which is not at all
unreasonable. [Unless there's a new "Richardson rule of thumb" that
covers such matters...]
5) The fact that DR has not been able to find "Isabel" mentioned in
records (presumably English records) prior to 1257 in itself provides
no basis for any conclusion as to whether she was a second wife or as
to when she married Enguerrand - except that it was before 1257. Has
DR performed a comprehensive search of continental records? The
Fiennes family was from France, after all. And does Enguerrand
himself appear in English records prior to 1257 - with or without a
wife?
6) The assignment of Maud de Fiennes as a daughter of a supposed 2nd
wife depends solely on the assumption that Enguerrand supposedly had
another marriage "in or before 1257" - for which there is no evidence,
just suppositions. The "guesstimates" of birth dates for Isabeau de
Condé make it also possible that Maud was the daughter of Isabeau.
The supposed 2nd wife of Enguerrand de Fiennes started out as an
interesting hypothesis back in 2002. Although DR has tried, by means
of constant repetition, to translate this into an established fact,
it's still just a house of cards. It would be wiser for DR to fall
back on his earlier conclusion that "I'm not convinced that there were
necessarily two wives".
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 9:23:35 PM2/9/12
to
As I stated, I have no knowledge that Nicholas de Condé or his wife,
Élisabeth, are near related to Queen Eleanor of Provence, wife of King
Henry III of England.
Perhaps John's reluctance to post the alleged kinship between these
parties is because he placed Enguerand de Fiennes' wife in the wrong
generation of the Condé family. If so, that is a common error.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Élisabeth, are near related to Queen Eleanor of Provence, wife of King
Henry III of England.
Perhaps John's reluctance to post the alleged kinship between these
parties is because he placed Enguerand de Fiennes' wife in the wrong
generation of the Condé family. If so, that is a common error.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
taf
Feb 9, 2012, 11:01:18 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 6:23 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> As I stated, I have no knowledge that Nicholas de Condé or his wife,
> Élisabeth, are near related to Queen Eleanor of Provence, wife of King
> Henry III of England.
>
> Perhaps John's reluctance to post the alleged kinship between these
> parties is because he placed Enguerand de Fiennes' wife in the wrong
> generation of the Condé family. If so, that is a common error.
Either you did not read the post to which you responded closely
> As I stated, I have no knowledge that Nicholas de Condé or his wife,
> Élisabeth, are near related to Queen Eleanor of Provence, wife of King
> Henry III of England.
>
> Perhaps John's reluctance to post the alleged kinship between these
> parties is because he placed Enguerand de Fiennes' wife in the wrong
> generation of the Condé family. If so, that is a common error.
enough, or else you are being intentionally obtuse. John explicitly
stated, "Schwennicke does place Isabeau in the proper generation of
the Condé family, despite DR's doubts on this point." Thus your lack
of knowledge on the subject must have some other explanation.
taf
John
Feb 9, 2012, 11:06:01 PM2/9/12
to
dictu!) on the placement of Isabeau de Condé, wife of Enguerrand de
Finnes, in the Condé family; as daughter of Nicolas and his wife
Elisabeth.
As to your lack of knowledge on the ancestry of her parents and the
relationship (of one or both) to Eleanor de Provence, you'll have to
deal with that on your own. Stubbornness is also a common error.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 11:44:07 PM2/9/12
to
I just asked you to prove your point. That's all. If you're not able
to do so, I understand.
to do so, I understand.
Peter Stewart
Feb 10, 2012, 1:08:46 AM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 10/02/2012 9:41 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> As for Enguerrand de Fiennes' daughter, Maud de Fiennes, she was
> married by agreement dated 15/20 June 1275 and before 20 July 1275
> (date of grant). As such, she seems almost certain to have been the
> daughter of Enguerrand de Fiennes's 2nd wife, Isabel, as Enguerrand
> and Isabel were married in or before 1257 (date of a deed). She
> presumably would not be the child of Enguerrand de Fiennes' first
> wife, _____ de Condé, who I "guesstimate" was born c.1215, and no
> later than c.1228.
Have you found any occurrence of her father Nicholas after 1220 (when he
>
> As for Enguerrand de Fiennes' daughter, Maud de Fiennes, she was
> married by agreement dated 15/20 June 1275 and before 20 July 1275
> (date of grant). As such, she seems almost certain to have been the
> daughter of Enguerrand de Fiennes's 2nd wife, Isabel, as Enguerrand
> and Isabel were married in or before 1257 (date of a deed). She
> presumably would not be the child of Enguerrand de Fiennes' first
> wife, _____ de Condé, who I "guesstimate" was born c.1215, and no
> later than c.1228.
subscribed a charter for Grandpr é ) to indicate that she could have
been born as late as ca 1228, or is this also a guess?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Feb 10, 2012, 2:30:42 PM2/10/12
to
Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears
regularly in the records from 1197 to 1220. The last appearance I
find for him is a charter dated 1220, a copy of which is published in
Bréquigny, Table Chronologique des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres & Actes
imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. This record
There is a fairly good treatment of the Condé (or Condet) family in
Annales de la Société Historique et Archéologique de Tournai n.s. 1
(1896): 319–338. This material may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IqBDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA319
The author states that Nicholas de Condé (or Condet) died about 1228
["mourut vers 1228"], but no documentation is provided for that
statement. Curiously, the author only cites charters that mention
Nicholas de Condé up through 1219. If you wish to term the death date
"about 1228" a guess, so be it. But the guesswork belongs to that
author, not me.
My own speculation is that Nicholas de Condé died soon after 1220, as
he was an important man and I find him in many records regularly up
through 1220. After 1220, he seems to vanish. I think the 1228 date
was employed, as Nicholas' widow, Isabelle, married (2nd) "about 1230"
to Robert de Béthune. But, again we are dealing with another
approximated date [about 1230], which, of course, is common in
medieval genealogy.
This author states that Nicholas de Condé was a knight and says he was
sire of Condet (in part) and "we believe" seigneur also in Ellignies-
Sainte-Anne and in Thumaides. Again the second part is a guess. In
the 1220 charter I have cited above, Nicholas occurs only as seigneur
of Moriaumès (or Moriamez) and Carenchi.
This same author states that Nicholas de Condé's daughter, Isabeau,
married Enguerrand II, sire of Fiennes. However, he cites no
documentation to prove this daughter's name, and none may exist. The
given name Isabeau may simply be taken from Enguerrand de Fiennes'
known surviving wife, Isabel. This is why I put a question mark
around the name ?Isabeau? for Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife.
A description of the seal of Nicholas de Condé is published in Raadt,
Sceaux Armoriés des Pays-Bas et des Pays Avoisinants 2 (1900): 247.
That reads as follows:
"Nicolas de Condé, homme du comte de Flandre et de Hainaut, 1213 : écu
pyriforme; un double trescheur, fleuronné et contre-fleuronné, et une
fasce brochante. Legend: + Nicholai de Condet)." END OF QUOTE.
I might note that Nicholas de Condé is styled
"kinsman" [consanguineus] by Philippe, Marquis of Namur, in 1207. See
Analectes pour Servir à l'Histoire Ecclésiastique de la Belgique 5
(1868): 483–485; Walraet, Actes de Philippe Ier (1949): 133.
The two men were related in the 4th degree of kindred (or, if you
prefer 3rd cousins) by common descent from Baudouin II, Count of
Hainault.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
regularly in the records from 1197 to 1220. The last appearance I
find for him is a charter dated 1220, a copy of which is published in
Bréquigny, Table Chronologique des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres & Actes
imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. This record
may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-lJEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA581
There is a fairly good treatment of the Condé (or Condet) family in
Annales de la Société Historique et Archéologique de Tournai n.s. 1
(1896): 319–338. This material may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=IqBDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA319
The author states that Nicholas de Condé (or Condet) died about 1228
["mourut vers 1228"], but no documentation is provided for that
statement. Curiously, the author only cites charters that mention
Nicholas de Condé up through 1219. If you wish to term the death date
"about 1228" a guess, so be it. But the guesswork belongs to that
author, not me.
My own speculation is that Nicholas de Condé died soon after 1220, as
he was an important man and I find him in many records regularly up
through 1220. After 1220, he seems to vanish. I think the 1228 date
was employed, as Nicholas' widow, Isabelle, married (2nd) "about 1230"
to Robert de Béthune. But, again we are dealing with another
approximated date [about 1230], which, of course, is common in
medieval genealogy.
This author states that Nicholas de Condé was a knight and says he was
sire of Condet (in part) and "we believe" seigneur also in Ellignies-
Sainte-Anne and in Thumaides. Again the second part is a guess. In
the 1220 charter I have cited above, Nicholas occurs only as seigneur
of Moriaumès (or Moriamez) and Carenchi.
This same author states that Nicholas de Condé's daughter, Isabeau,
married Enguerrand II, sire of Fiennes. However, he cites no
documentation to prove this daughter's name, and none may exist. The
given name Isabeau may simply be taken from Enguerrand de Fiennes'
known surviving wife, Isabel. This is why I put a question mark
around the name ?Isabeau? for Enguerrand de Fiennes' first wife.
A description of the seal of Nicholas de Condé is published in Raadt,
Sceaux Armoriés des Pays-Bas et des Pays Avoisinants 2 (1900): 247.
That reads as follows:
"Nicolas de Condé, homme du comte de Flandre et de Hainaut, 1213 : écu
pyriforme; un double trescheur, fleuronné et contre-fleuronné, et une
fasce brochante. Legend: + Nicholai de Condet)." END OF QUOTE.
I might note that Nicholas de Condé is styled
"kinsman" [consanguineus] by Philippe, Marquis of Namur, in 1207. See
Analectes pour Servir à l'Histoire Ecclésiastique de la Belgique 5
(1868): 483–485; Walraet, Actes de Philippe Ier (1949): 133.
The two men were related in the 4th degree of kindred (or, if you
prefer 3rd cousins) by common descent from Baudouin II, Count of
Hainault.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
Feb 10, 2012, 5:56:17 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 11/02/2012 6:30 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears
> regularly in the records from 1197 to 1220. The last appearance I
> find for him is a charter dated 1220, a copy of which is published in
> Bréquigny, Table Chronologique des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres& Actes
> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears
> regularly in the records from 1197 to 1220. The last appearance I
> find for him is a charter dated 1220, a copy of which is published in
> imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. This record
> may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=-lJEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA581
>
> There is a fairly good treatment of the Condé (or Condet) family in
> Annales de la Société Historique et Archéologique de Tournai n.s. 1
> (1896): 319–338. This material may be viewed at the following
> weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=IqBDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA319
>
> The author states that Nicholas de Condé (or Condet) died about 1228
> ["mourut vers 1228"], but no documentation is provided for that
> statement. Curiously, the author only cites charters that mention
> Nicholas de Condé up through 1219. If you wish to term the death date
> "about 1228" a guess, so be it. But the guesswork belongs to that
> author, not me.
"That author" was Paul-Armand Du Chastel de la Howarderie-Neuvireuil -
> may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=-lJEAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA581
>
> There is a fairly good treatment of the Condé (or Condet) family in
> Annales de la Société Historique et Archéologique de Tournai n.s. 1
> (1896): 319–338. This material may be viewed at the following
> weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=IqBDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA319
>
> The author states that Nicholas de Condé (or Condet) died about 1228
> ["mourut vers 1228"], but no documentation is provided for that
> statement. Curiously, the author only cites charters that mention
> Nicholas de Condé up through 1219. If you wish to term the death date
> "about 1228" a guess, so be it. But the guesswork belongs to that
> author, not me.
with such a name he deserves not to be passed over in casual anonymity.
His article cited above was complemented with Additions on pp 476-482 of
the same issue, that also should not be ignored. And if - without even
bothering to find out who he was or what else he had to say on the
family - you are willing to accept Du Chastel's guess on one point then
why not on others that you contradict?
>
> My own speculation is that Nicholas de Condé died soon after 1220, as
> he was an important man and I find him in many records regularly up
> through 1220. After 1220, he seems to vanish. I think the 1228 date
> was employed, as Nicholas' widow, Isabelle, married (2nd) "about 1230"
> to Robert de Béthune. But, again we are dealing with another
> approximated date [about 1230], which, of course, is common in
> medieval genealogy.
1235, though I haven't tried to verify this.
Before speculating further you might take the trouble to check
Charles-Gustave Roland's article 'Les seigneurs de Morialmé avant le
quinzième siècle' in /Annales de la Société archéologique de Namur/ 35
(1922) 1–81.
Peter Stewart
John
Feb 10, 2012, 6:27:24 PM2/10/12
to
mother Isabeau de Moriamez [or Morialmé] - quite a reasonable and
common naming pattern.
You raise no concern about any of the other names in this source - why
should this Isabeau be an exception? Oh, yes - it disagrees with your
firmly held (and increasingly flimsy) conclusion that Isabeau and
Isabel are two separate individuals.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 10, 2012, 7:06:21 PM2/10/12
to
In my previous post, I noted that Nicholas de Condé, seigneur of
Moriaumès (or Moriamez), was living in 1220, and that he is alleged to
have died about 1228.
Saint-Allais, Nobiliaire Universel de France 20 (1875): 76 states that
there was a charter passed between Nicholas de Condé and Philippe,
Count of Namur, in 1226. This information may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=O-Y8AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA76
This statement is not sourced, but it is probably correct.
Nicholas de Condé was certainly dead in or before Jan. 1236, when his
son and heir, as "Jacques de Condé, seigneur of Belloeil, fils de
Nicolas," confirmed an earlier gift of his father's of the tithes of
Elignies-Sainte-Anne to the Abbey of Saint-Ghislain. See Reiffenberg,
Monuments pour servir à l'Histoire des Provinces de Namur, de Hainaut
et de Luxembourg 8 (1848): 420, which may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5n1BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA420
Élisabeth, widow of Nicholas de Condé, married (2nd) reportedly in
1230 Robert de Béthune, avoué of Arras, seigneur of Béthune and
Termonde. She survived his death in 1248. On 9 Feb. 1249 she reached
an agreement with her daughter and son-in-law, Gui de Dampierre and
his wife, Mathilde de Béthune, regarding her dower rights as the widow
of Robert de Béthune. On 14 March 1249 R. de Husdinio, official of
Arras, declared that he had received a promise to observe this accord
by the said Gui and Mathilde on the one part and the said Élisabeth on
the other. An abstract of this dower agreement is published in
Inventaire-Sommaire des Archives Départementales antérieures à 1790:
Nord, Archives Civiles, Série B, Chambre des Comptes de Lille 1(1)
(1899): 265. This information may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0-BLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA265
Moriaumès (or Moriamez), was living in 1220, and that he is alleged to
have died about 1228.
Saint-Allais, Nobiliaire Universel de France 20 (1875): 76 states that
there was a charter passed between Nicholas de Condé and Philippe,
Count of Namur, in 1226. This information may be viewed at the
following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=O-Y8AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA76
This statement is not sourced, but it is probably correct.
Nicholas de Condé was certainly dead in or before Jan. 1236, when his
son and heir, as "Jacques de Condé, seigneur of Belloeil, fils de
Nicolas," confirmed an earlier gift of his father's of the tithes of
Elignies-Sainte-Anne to the Abbey of Saint-Ghislain. See Reiffenberg,
Monuments pour servir à l'Histoire des Provinces de Namur, de Hainaut
et de Luxembourg 8 (1848): 420, which may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5n1BAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA420
Élisabeth, widow of Nicholas de Condé, married (2nd) reportedly in
1230 Robert de Béthune, avoué of Arras, seigneur of Béthune and
Termonde. She survived his death in 1248. On 9 Feb. 1249 she reached
an agreement with her daughter and son-in-law, Gui de Dampierre and
his wife, Mathilde de Béthune, regarding her dower rights as the widow
of Robert de Béthune. On 14 March 1249 R. de Husdinio, official of
Arras, declared that he had received a promise to observe this accord
by the said Gui and Mathilde on the one part and the said Élisabeth on
the other. An abstract of this dower agreement is published in
Inventaire-Sommaire des Archives Départementales antérieures à 1790:
Nord, Archives Civiles, Série B, Chambre des Comptes de Lille 1(1)
(1899): 265. This information may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0-BLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA265
John
Feb 10, 2012, 7:47:16 PM2/10/12
to
certainly did survive her second husband's death in 1248
(specifically, 11/12 Nov of that year), as she had a will dated Dec
1256 See Schwennicke, ESNF, 18:116. And unlike DR's earlier source
above where he took care to note "This statement is not sourced, but
it is probably correct" [???], Schwennicke's statement IS sourced. In
particular, one of his sources for the Condé table is the article on
the Condé family cited a few posts ago by Peter Stewart.
While of some interest perhaps, this is all peripheral to, and a
diversion from, the original question of the supposed (and
increasingly doubtful) 2nd wife of Enguerrand de Fiennes.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 10, 2012, 7:50:43 PM2/10/12
to
In my post earlier today, I stated that Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-
I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
heiress of Carenchi.
Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears regularly in the records from 1197
to 1220. That is correct.
I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
1220, a copy of which is published in Bréquigny, Table Chronologique
des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres & Actes
imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. In this
des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres & Actes
charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
heiress of Carenchi.
Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
Peter Stewart
Feb 10, 2012, 8:44:53 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 11/02/2012 11:50 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> In my post earlier today, I stated that Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-
> in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears regularly in the records from 1197
> to 1220. That is correct.
>
> I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
> 1220, a copy of which is published in Bréquigny, Table Chronologique
> des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres& Actes
> In my post earlier today, I stated that Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-
> in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears regularly in the records from 1197
> to 1220. That is correct.
>
> I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
> 1220, a copy of which is published in Bréquigny, Table Chronologique
> imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. In this
> charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
>
> The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
> this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
> Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
> heiress of Carenchi.
>
> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
> never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
The last known charter in which Nicolas I occurs was dated 1220, as
> charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
>
> The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
> this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
> Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
> heiress of Carenchi.
>
> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
> never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
mentioned earlier - he subscribed the confirmation by Philippe de
Courtenay, marquis of Namur of a donation by Ermengarde, widow of
Godefroid de Wierde, and her daughter Ida to Grandpré abbey ["Ut autem
haec stabile robur obtineant firmitatis, presentem paginam sigilli
nostri impressione fecimus communiri sub testimonio virorum nobilium
Nicholai scilicet de Condé et Walteri de Fontaines, Anselmi de Dompierre
et aliorum multorum. Actum anno gratiae millesimo ducentesimo vicesimo",
see /L'administration et les finances du comté de Namur du XIIIe au
XVe^siècle: Sources/, IV. /Chartes et règlements/, edited by Dieudonné
Brouwers, 2 vols (Namur, 1913-1914) , vol 1 p 23 no 45.]
Philippe was killed in November 1226 - the unsupported statement of
Saint-Allais that there was a charter transacted between him and Nicolas
in that year should be relied on, any more than his assertion that the
latter's widow Isabeau remarried in 1230: she occurs with her second
husband Robert in 1235, giving a range of 15 years for the death of her
first unless you can Google more effectively than so far.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Feb 10, 2012, 10:55:29 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 11/02/2012 12:44 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 11/02/2012 11:50 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On 11/02/2012 11:50 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>> In my post earlier today, I stated that Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-
>> in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears regularly in the records from 1197
>> to 1220. That is correct.
>>
>> I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
>> 1220, a copy of which is published in Bréquigny, Table Chronologique
>> des Diplômes, Chartes, Titres& Actes
>> in-law, Nicholas de Condé, appears regularly in the records from 1197
>> to 1220. That is correct.
>>
>> I then stated the last appearance I find for him is a charter dated
>> 1220, a copy of which is published in Bréquigny, Table Chronologique
>> imprimés concernant l'Histoire de France 6 (1850): 581. In this
>> charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
>>
>> The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
>> this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
>> Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
>> heiress of Carenchi.
>>
>> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
>> never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
>> charter, he is styled seigneur of Moreaumes and Carenchi.
>>
>> The charter in question is actually dated 1270, not 1220. As such,
>> this charter belongs to Nicholas de Condé's grandson, also named
>> Nicholas de Condé (died 1293), who married Catherine de Caieu, the
>> heiress of Carenchi.
>>
>> Enguerrand de Fiennes' father-in-law, the elder Nicholas de Condé, was
>> never seigneur of Carenchi. Mea culpa.
> The last known charter in which Nicolas I occurs was dated 1220, as
> mentioned earlier - he subscribed the confirmation by Philippe de
> Courtenay, marquis of Namur of a donation by Ermengarde, widow of
> Godefroid de Wierde, and her daughter Ida to Grandpré abbey ["Ut autem
> haec stabile robur obtineant firmitatis, presentem paginam sigilli
> nostri impressione fecimus communiri sub testimonio virorum nobilium
> Nicholai scilicet de Condé et Walteri de Fontaines, Anselmi de Dompierre
> et aliorum multorum. Actum anno gratiae millesimo ducentesimo vicesimo",
> see /L'administration et les finances du comté de Namur du XIIIe au
> XVe^siècle: Sources/, IV. /Chartes et règlements/, edited by Dieudonné
> Brouwers, 2 vols (Namur, 1913-1914) , vol 1 p 23 no 45.]
>
> Philippe was killed in November 1226 - the unsupported statement of
> Saint-Allais that there was a charter transacted between him and Nicolas
> in that year should be relied on
I meant to write "the unsupported statement of Saint-Allais ... should
> mentioned earlier - he subscribed the confirmation by Philippe de
> Courtenay, marquis of Namur of a donation by Ermengarde, widow of
> Godefroid de Wierde, and her daughter Ida to Grandpré abbey ["Ut autem
> haec stabile robur obtineant firmitatis, presentem paginam sigilli
> nostri impressione fecimus communiri sub testimonio virorum nobilium
> Nicholai scilicet de Condé et Walteri de Fontaines, Anselmi de Dompierre
> et aliorum multorum. Actum anno gratiae millesimo ducentesimo vicesimo",
> see /L'administration et les finances du comté de Namur du XIIIe au
> XVe^siècle: Sources/, IV. /Chartes et règlements/, edited by Dieudonné
> Brouwers, 2 vols (Namur, 1913-1914) , vol 1 p 23 no 45.]
>
> Philippe was killed in November 1226 - the unsupported statement of
> Saint-Allais that there was a charter transacted between him and Nicolas
> in that year should be relied on
not be relied on".
Peter Stewart
John
Feb 11, 2012, 12:37:45 AM2/11/12
to
family - although it appears to cover Condé as well.
Wjhonson
Feb 20, 2012, 6:40:32 PM2/20/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Stares blankly out the window
It might serve you slightly my dear to use the form of a name known to the rest of the world
Instead of a novel form
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