Re: Mary Tirrell, wife of John Church [? ancestor of Reade, Epps, etc. ?]

[mhol...@mac.com]

On Sep 2, 5:48 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In the Visitation of Essex, we find an Edmond Tirrell who had a
> daughter Mary, married to John Church:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74&dq=saperton+mar...
>
> Another source shows this Edmond Tirrell died 1576 and had a grandson
> EDMUND CHURCH by his daughter Mary:

Edmund Tirrell (or Tyrell, etc.), the son of Jasper and Anne (Goring)
was born about 1510 and died in 1576 at Rawreth, Essex, England. His
sister Joan was the wife of Edmund Lewkenor and ancestors of Rose
(Stoughton) Otis of Dover, NH. See “The Tyrells of England” by Oliver
F. Brown (Phillimore, Chicester, Sussex, 1982). Anne Goring was a
great-great granddaughter of Sir Richard Camoys and Joan Poynings (and
thus royally-descended).

[t...@clearwire.net]

On Sep 2, 9:52 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I assume they are two different men.  However, the first individual
> > could be the man you seek.
>
> Yes, indeed he could, as Edmond Tirrell the grandfather was a Catholic
> recusant as well.  The Catholicism may be the reason John Church's
> will did not name his son Edmond.

I note that History of Rochford Hundred (unfortunately unreferenced)
shows Plumberow passing from Jasper Tyrell to Edmund Tyrell to Edmund
Church, son of Mary Tyrell, Edmund's daughter.

http://books.google.com/books?id=P2suAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA279

taf

[t...@clearwire.net]

On Sep 3, 7:43 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have always wondered if there wasn't some gentry connection in the
> ancestry of the Reades based on the prominent marriages of some of the
> women a couple of generations later:
>
> (1) Col. Edmond Reade's daughter Martha married (1) Daniel Epes
> (almost certainly from a gentry family in Kent) and (2) Deputy Gov.
> Samuel Symonds, from another Essex gentry family.
>
> (2) her sister, Elizabeth Reade, married John Winthrop, Jr., of
> Connecticut.
>
> (3) their mother, Elizabeth, married (2), as his first wife, the
> Regicide Rev. Hugh Peters, from a gentry family in Cornwall (a man at
> least fifteen or twenty years her junior).

You could add that Elizabeth's nephew (Martha's first cousin) Col.
Thomas Cooke was MP for Essex in 1654. He was brother of immigrants
George and Joseph. The latter arrived in NE as servants of Roger
Harlakenden, first cousin of Symonds' first wife.

I wonder if there isn't something to be learned on this Cooke family
as well. Glenn (Welsh Founders of Pa) traces this family back to the
reign of Edward III, citing a fine, an ipm, and a half-dozen wills.
The specific details are not given, but it looks like there is further
potential. Morant is said to have given particulars on these Cookes.

taf

[Douglas Richardson]

On Sep 5, 10:33 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

< Okay, Doug, you're off the hook if George Cooke was known to be dead
< by October 1652:
<
< http://books.google.com/books?id=ezsVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA513&dq=%22to+impro...

I was never on the hook.

DR

[Tony Hoskins]

""We lived in a very ignorant place, with little means, and hence I
desired to come to New England ...." This doesn't exactly sound like
the daughter of John Haynes, Esquire, later a Governor in New England."

I don't necessarily agree. Early 17th century English rural gentry of
the Puritan stamp could easily find themselves in "very ignorant places"
- places populated by those seen as being ill-informed and uninspired by
the Word, as construed by the unusually Bible-centered and learned
Puritans. It is important to remember that, relatively speaking,
Puritans were much more scripturally-learned in those days than
non-Puritans, whom Puritans would frequently find to be "ignorant".

Tony

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
Sonoma County Archivist
Sonoma County History and Genealogy Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562

[Douglas Richardson]

On Sep 5, 12:14 pm, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
< > I was never on the hook.
<
< > DR
<

< No, you never are, are you.
<
< Except in your Percival Lowell article.

Why is that? Please explain yourself.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

[t...@clearwire.net]

On Sep 5, 10:02 am, John Brandon <starbuc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > It seems counter-intuitive to me, as Runwell is literally within yards
> > of Edmond Tirrell's main seat (Rawreth), and there was clearly an
> > obsession among the Runwell Churches (and their descendants, the
> > Reades) with the names "Edmond" and "Mary" (to a lesser degree). I
> > still think it needs to be looked into in greater depth--if only to
> > spell out more exactly why it is incorrect.
>
> One other possible angle to explore: was Edmond Tirrell's daughter
> Mary illegitimate? This might allow for a tighter chronology, if
> indeed there is a connection to the Churches of Runwell.

Not if Edmund Church inherited Plumbebow from Edmund Tirrell, although
we need more details on this property transfer to know that it was
indeed inheritance and not simple transfer.

taf

[leslie...@gmail.com]

Here is your answer regarding John Church and Mary Tirrell:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Zr02AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53&dq=%22JOhn+Church%22+Margery+Henkyn&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiiuqrBr7bPAhVHSyYKHWGaAkQQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=%22JOhn%20Church%22%20Margery%20Henkyn&f=false


Leslie

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Re: the Church ancestry of Reade, Eppes, etc.
Walter Davis, in _Anc of Bethia Harris_, transcribed a will of John Church of Runwell, d. 1577, father of Martha (Church) Reade, and three sons, Charles, Edmund, & Thomas. The will mentions lands at Takeley, and Davis suggests that's where this Church fam originated.

Does anyone know the ancestry of this Church fam and if there are connections to John Church/Mary Tirell?

If interested, Davis' piece on John Church has been transcribed on FamilySearch:
https://familysearch.org/photos/artifacts/6276080

Thanks,

Greg Cooke

[taf]

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 10:44:32 AM UTC-7, gdco...@gmail.com wrote:

> Re: the Church ancestry of Reade, Eppes, etc.
> Walter Davis, in _Anc of Bethia Harris_, transcribed a will of John Church
> of Runwell, d. 1577, father of Martha (Church) Reade, and three sons,
> Charles, Edmund, & Thomas. The will mentions lands at Takeley, and Davis
> suggests that's where this Church fam originated.
>
> Does anyone know the ancestry of this Church fam and if there are
> connections to John Church/Mary Tirell?

Don't see anything that even hints that would be the case.

taf

[taf]

On Thursday, September 4, 2008 at 12:37:20 AM UTC-7, t...@clearwire.net wrote:


Looking into the Reades a little more, I am finding a conflict with regard to their Cooke connection.

In _Evidences of the Winthrops of Groton, co. Suffolk, England, (etc)_ it is explicitly stated that a pedigree in the Visitation of Essex reports that Thomas Cooke, father in law of Edmund Reade, married thrice, to Susan Brand of Boxford, Suff., the mother of his children, to Elizabeth North of Colchester, and to Margaret Rice of Bures St. Mary, Suff. However, when I look at the published Visitation of Essex, it shows Thomas Cooke to have married first to Margaret Rice, who is mother of his children, then to Elizabeth North, and finally to Susan Brand. Has anyone looked into this and know which order is correct?
https://books.google.com/books?id=XPc7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA160
https://books.google.com/books?id=0m1KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA383

Of particular interest, immigrant Edmund Rice was married in Bury St. Mary in 1618, being of the generation of Elizabeth (Cooke) Reade.

taf

[gdco...@gmail.com]

Davis follows the pedigree order of marriages: (1) Margret Rice, (2) Eliz. North, (3) Susan Brand. The 3rd m. was found at Bures St. Mary (not Boxford), in 1558, and if the pedigree order is correct, the 1st two wives died in a seven yr period between 1551-1558. Davis estimates Thomas was b. about 1541, though in 1559 "he fined for a tenement called Crossehouse, late the property of his father" citing Duchy of Lancaster, court rolls, bundle 123, No 1859, fo. 88b. Thomas was named as executor in his mother's will, made 17 Nov 1561.

Greg

[taf]

I am not comfortable with the chronology here. If Elizabeth (Cooke) Reade was born to Margaret Rice before 1551 (where does the 1551 date come from, not that it matters that much), she would have been impossibly old when daughter Elizabeth (Reade) Winthrop was born in 1617 (as per Evidences of the Winthrops). Even if this date is off by a decade, it still doesn't work. For that matter, Edmund's first wife died at the end of 1592 (again, assuming Evidences hasn't bulloxed it up). That would make Elizabeth no younger than 34 were she born before Thomas Cooke married Susan Brand, and Elizabeth then had 8 children. I don't think this holds together. There has to be some confusion in terms of the Cooke wives, their order and which is the mother of Elizabeth.

The published Visitation of Essex cannot be taken as face value - this was drawn from Harleian mss 1542, a copy of the visitation, while the version given by Evidences is supposedly from Harleian mss 1083, a copy of the visitation, 1137 (don't know what this is), and 1432 (a collection of Essex pedigrees). I don't see why one Harleian copy of the visitation should be taken as preferable to another.

If the marriage of Thomas Cooke to Susan is firmly places in 1558, yet Elizabeth was still having children in 1617 (or even 1623, the date given for her second son, again, I don't know the source), then maybe the both of them are a little right, that Susan was the first wife, but Elizabeth was daughter of a later marriage to Margaret.

Unfortunately, I am awash in dates of unknown origin and don't know what to trust, but there is definitely a problem.

As an aside, the Brands, though a Suffolk family, appear in the Essex visitation. If the 1558 marriage of Susan is solid, she would appear to be of the same generation as the first John Brand in that pedigree.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0m1KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA357

taf

[gdco...@gmail.com]

oopsie, typed too fast and made a 10y error: the seven yr period is 1561-1568, and the m. to Susan Brand is 1568. Sorry.

per Davis again: "The pedigree credits his son Thomas to his first wife, but it would seem that the mother of his daughter Elizabeth was either the second or third, inasmuch as Elizabeth was m. abt 1594 and had a child born as late as 1614." Given that last date, it would seem Elizabeth is the d. of Susan, if Susan was the 3rd and last wife.

Greg

[taf]

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 6:58:04 PM UTC-7, gdco...@gmail.com wrote:

> per Davis again: "The pedigree credits his son Thomas to his first wife,
> but it would seem that the mother of his daughter Elizabeth was either the
> second or third, inasmuch as Elizabeth was m. abt 1594 and had a child born
> as late as 1614." Given that last date, it would seem Elizabeth is the d.
> of Susan, if Susan was the 3rd and last wife.

I think Davis is wrong here. We have two conflicting versions of the pedigree, one deriving the one child shown from the first wife, Margaret Rice, with Susan Brand as the third, the other showing the children as belonging to first wife Susan Brand, with Margaret Rice as the third. Davis has taken a mix and match approach, making Margret the first wife and mother of heir Thomas, while making Elizabeth daughter of third wife Susan. However, if the form of the pedigree reported by Evidences is taken as the authentic version, then the problem evaporates - Elizabeth and Thomas could be children of first wife Susan Brand, with Elizabeth North and Margaret Rice following.

Along these lines, looking at familysearch I find a marriage in 1574 at Colchester between Thomas Cooke and Elizabeth Northye, which I think has to be that of Thomas and "Elizabeth North of Colchester" described in the visitation as the second wife. This would set up a chronology of Thomas Cooke m.1 1568, Susan Brand, with children b. 1569-1573, m.2 1574, Elizabeth Northy, and sometime after that m.3 Margaret Rice.

I note there was a George Northye who was Town Lecturer of Colchester in 1580, but would be suspended in 1583 by the Bishop of London for refusing to subscribe to the articles. He died in 1593.

Regarding the Brand family, there are two handy time points. Sir John Brand was admitted to Gray's Inn 1608. His heir was his uncle John, whose son, also named John, married in 1618. That puts this generation b. ca. 1590, and the previous generation, Robert and John Brand of Boxford, born in the 1560s, hence of the generation after Susan Brand of Boxford. As usual, such back-of-the-envelope estimations can be off.

taf

[taf]

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 9:42:19 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> Regarding the Brand family, there are two handy time points. Sir John
> Brand was admitted to Gray's Inn 1608. His heir was his uncle John, whose
> son, also named John, married in 1618. That puts this generation b. ca.
> 1590, and the previous generation, Robert and John Brand of Boxford, born
> in the 1560s, hence of the generation after Susan Brand of Boxford. As
> usual, such back-of-the-envelope estimations can be off.

A followup to this last: Joseph Brand, younger brother of the John who married in 1618, was an MP. According to his account in HOP, he was born ca. 1605, and "was the grandson of a local clothier who acquired Edmondstone, five miles from Sudbury, towards the close of the 16th century."

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/brand-joseph-1605-74

He left a pedigree in the 1633/4/5 visitation of London:
https://books.google.com/books?id=HPwUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA108

Copinger gives a brief account, indicating that in first raising the family, Robert Brand, Prior of Norwich, d. 1542, could be viewed as its founder. This seems to intend the Robert Brand/Brond als. Catton, Prior of Norwich, who d. 1552, and left PCC will, but I see nothing that suggests a connection with the Suffolk/Essex family. Copinger reports John Brand buying Edwardstone in 1598, dying in 1610.

He also reports that Newstead was held by Richard Brand of Boxford, from whom it was inherited by his son John, who died in 1610, his heir being his son John of Edwardstone.

For Polstead he reports that John Brond purchased it in 1598, and that he was a clothier, son of Richard of Boxford, and John died in 1610, aged 76 (so b. ca. 1634). This last comes from a monumental inscription at Boxford.

These accounts of the Brands are somewhat confused regarding the heirs of the individual properties given by Copinger, but (as much as Copinger can be trusted) it seems that Richard Brand of Boxford was the head of the family in the generation before Susan, but Boxford Churchwardens' Accounts, 1530-1561, by Peter Northeast, shows several Bronds living at that time, though at least two of them appear to have left surviving wills at Bury.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZvC_S8HeJaIC&pg=PA84


taf

[Hal Bradley]

The will of John Brond of Ewardstone, father of John, Joseph (the M.P.),
and Benjamin, as well the daughters named in the Visitation, was probated
27 Oct 1642. [The National Archives; Kew, England; *Prerogative Court of
Canterbury and Related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers*; Class: *PROB
11*; Piece: *190*]

Hal Bradley

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>

[taf]

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 12:52:20 PM UTC-7, Hal Bradley wrote:
> The will of John Brond of Ewardstone, father of John, Joseph (the M.P.),
> and Benjamin, as well the daughters named in the Visitation, was probated
> 27 Oct 1642. [The National Archives; Kew, England; *Prerogative Court of
> Canterbury and Related Probate Jurisdictions: Will Registers*; Class: *PROB
> 11*; Piece: *190*]

There are actually a lot of relevant wills:

John, 1487
. . .
Richard Brond, 1590 (not PCC)
William, 1600
John, 1611
John 1642
James 1625
Benjamin 1637
Jacob 1630

taf

[taf]

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 1:43:51 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> There are actually a lot of relevant wills:
>
> John, 1487
> . . .
> Richard Brond, 1590 (not PCC)
> William, 1600
> John, 1611
> John 1642
> James 1625
> Benjamin 1637
> Jacob 1630

Missed two. There is a 1622 will of Benjamin Brande of Edwardstone, nephew of John (1642), James (1625), Benjamin (1637), Jacob (1630) and Robert (father of Sir John), probably son of Richard d. 1601, son of John (1611).

And one of Peter Brande of Bildeston, 1622, who names John (1642) in his will, but was old enough to have married grandchildren, perhaps the brother of John (1611) or even of Richard (1590). His widow Bridgett likewise died testate, 1633.

taf

[taf]

I also overlooked a visitation. In addition to the Essex and London ones, a branch of the family of Brond of Boxford appears in a published Norfolk visitation.

https://books.google.com/books?id=HS8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA55

Unfortunately, the version reproduced combines pedigrees from 1563, 1589 and 1613, plus additional pedigrees, and no dates whatsoever are given. However, it ends with Edmund Brond married to Agnes Pory/Pery. An Agnes, wife of Edmund Brond was buried in North Elmham in 1573, so I tentatively assign this pedigree as coming from the 1563 visitation, or at least being of similar age (it does not appear in the Dashwood edition of the 1563). This would be consistent with the Thomas Rookewode of the pedigree being the Thomas who married the daughter of John Clopton, who died 12 Henry VIII.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KrP8I621o0gC&

This would make William Brond of Boxford who heads the pedigree belong to the generation before the Richard Brond, sen of Boxford, perhaps his uncle.

If anyone is familiar with one of the other listed families that would help nail down the chronology, please weigh in.

taf

[taf]

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 7:17:16 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> This would make William Brond of Boxford who heads the pedigree belong to
> the generation before the Richard Brond, sen of Boxford, perhaps his uncle.

Answering my own question, the William heading the pedigree in the Norfolk Visitation volume who married Emma Barhowe, a coheiress to Bardwell Hall, is certainly the William Brond, holding no land, whose 1495 ipm reports his heir to be William, aged 2. The elder William's wife Emma also had a 1495 ipm, again reporting William aged 2 as heir to Bardwell Hall. If he truly was father of George in the next generation (if a generation hasn't been dropped from the pedigree) then George must have been born in the narrow window between the birth of son William in 1493 and the deaths of the parents by 1495

I would also tentatively identify him with the William whose executors, John Brond and Rose Brond, sued for debt in 1498. He may then be the William named in the will of John Brond pf Boxford whose will (prob 1488) names his widow Rose, his sons John and William and his daughter Alice. If so, it looks like John then would be the prospective grandfather of the Richard, sen, who died 1590.

taf

[taf]

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 7:17:16 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> I also overlooked a visitation. In addition to the Essex and London ones,
> a branch of the family of Brond of Boxford appears in a published Norfolk
> visitation.
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=HS8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA55

Another note on this visitation. It shows:

1. William Brond of Boxford, Suffolk, m. Emma, daughter of Barhowe by a coheiress of Bardwell of Bardwell Hall, Suffolk.

2. Alice m. William Wystow (alt. Wistraw) of Sudbury.

2. George Brond of Bardwell, Suffolk, m. Elizabeth dau. Thomas Rookewood of Stanfeild, Suffolk.

3. Thomazin m. Edmund Cullen of Dunmow, Essex.

3. Margaret, m. Thomas Reynowe of Bernam Brome, Norfolk.

3. Edmund Brond of Gryston, Norfolk, m. Agnes dau. of Peter Pory (or Pery) of Thomson, Norfolk.

4. Elizabeth Brond


I find in TNA catalog the following, that includes several of these families:

C 1/1291/53-54
Description:
Short title: Bronde v Wystowe.
Plaintiffs: George BRONDE, gentleman.
Defendants: Jasper WYSTOWE of Sudbury, fletcher, and Peter PORYE, gentleman.
Subject: Manor of Waterhouse, lands in Thompson and Griston, and rent charged on the manor of Beadwell.
Date: 1551-1553

If born to William and Emma ca. 1493, that would make George Brond about 50 when this sit was executed, and his son Edmund a young adult. It would not be long after this that Edmund, son of George Brond(e), would marry Agnes, daughter of Peter Pory(e).

Peter Porye/Pory, gent., was the grandfather of John Pory, Speaker of the Virginia Assembly, and Virginia immigrants Peter Pory, gent., and Robert Pory were likely of this family.

taf

[taf]

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 2:01:21 PM UTC-7, taf wrote:

> > https://books.google.com/books?id=HS8EAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA55
>
> Another note on this visitation. It shows:
>
> 1. William Brond of Boxford, Suffolk, m. Emma, daughter of Barhowe by a coheiress of Bardwell of Bardwell Hall, Suffolk.
>
> 2. Alice m. William Wystow (alt. Wistraw) of Sudbury.
>
> 2. George Brond of Bardwell, Suffolk, m. Elizabeth dau. Thomas Rookewood of Stanfeild, Suffolk.
>
> 3. Thomazin m. Edmund Cullen of Dunmow, Essex.
>
> 3. Margaret, m. Thomas Reynowe of Bernam Brome, Norfolk.
>
> 3. Edmund Brond of Gryston, Norfolk, m. Agnes dau. of Peter Pory (or Pery) of Thomson, Norfolk.

Alice (Brond) Wystowe apparently had an earlier husband. William Wystowe of Sudbury died testate, his 1549 will naming, with non-relatives:

His wife Alice

His son Jasper
Jasper's son Thomas
Jasper's second son
Jasper's daughter Elizabeth

His daughter Agnes Garlyng
Thomas Garlyng, eldest son of Agnes
Thomas's younger brother
Thomas's eldest sister
The children of Agnes; their brothers and sisters

Richard and Margaret Goldyng, "my wifs daughter"
Richard's sons Thomas and Edward Goldyng, Wystowe's godsons

It refers to an annuity "that I have of Sir Thomas Jermyn out of his Manor of Bardwell late of George Bronde"

In 1551, Alice Wystowe wrote her own, naming:

Her deceased husband, William Wystowe
The children of Richard Goldyng and "my daughter" Margaret Goldyng
brother George Bronde
cousin (i.e. nephew) Edmonde Bronde
cousin (i.e. niece) Thomasyn Cullyn
cousin (i.e. niece) Margaret Bronde

Given that Margaret Goldyng is called daughter by Alice, and wife's daughter by William, while William's children are not named by Alice, I think it likely that both William and Alice brought children into their marriage.

taf

[taf]

And one more, the will of Sir John Brand. He does not associate himself with any location (i.e. rather than saying "I John Brande of . . . " he just gives his name. He doesn't call himself knight, although it is recorded int he margin as belonging to Johannes Brand militis. He leaves legacies to his brother Benjamin (under 22), sister Mary (under 21), sister Martha (under 21), uncle John Brande, Master Sands preacher of Boxford, friend Mr Robert Woolrich, & the parish of Boxford. Uncle John is executor, and reports having left "all my bonds" with Woolrich "of Grays Inne". It is undated, probated in April 1625.

This is the son of Robert, son of John (1611).

taf

[gdco...@gmail.com]

re: Davis
Davis recognized that John Church of Runwell was not the same man as John Church of Maldon. The full opening paragraph of his Church article in _Bethia Harris_ explains it far better than than the limited abstract on FamilySearch:
"Much time and money have been spent in trying to identify the wife of that William Reade of Wickford who in his will made in 1603 named his brother Edmund Church. In the parish of North Benfleet, which adjoins Wickford, an Edmund Church was lord of the principal manor, and it seemed probable that William Reade's wife was one of the four sisters of this man, who was the son of a wealthy lawyer, John Church of Maldon, by his second wife, Mary Tyrrell. The records of this Church family were carefully searched over a period of years, without finding proof of a Church-Reade marriage. The chance examination of a will at Somerset House, however, has produced another John Church with a son Edmund and also definite proof of his daughter's marriage to William Reade."

Thanks
Greg

[James Nathan]

This assessment seems correct. There are Suffolk feet of fines which mention Thomas Cooke and his wife Margaret beginning in 1579. That fine certainly appears to be for the correct Thomas Cooke, since it involved as plaintiffs Thomas Cooke and Henry Syday (with wife Anne) vs. Geoffrey Syday for properties in Alphamstone, Bures St. Mary, and Lamarshe.

From John Syday's 1539 will, it would seem Henry could be Thomas Cooke's brother-in-law. Based on John Syday calling John Wyncoll of Bures his nephew, and a visitation of that family, it might appear John Syday's father was named William (John did name a son William). The Quedwell(Codwell) connection seems possible to determine since the 1591 will of John Quedwell makes Thomas Cooke of Pedmershe, his cousin, the executor and notes Thomas Cooke's children are Thomas (his godson) and Elizabeth (i.e., the one who would marry Edmund Reade a few years after); John Quedwell also states his father was named John. Feet of fines help identify wives names of this Quedwell family.

Regarding the Brand(Bronde) family, there is an extensive pedigree of this family that I obtained from the Suffolk RO, though unfortunately does not mention a Cooke marriage. It lists the children of Ann and Richard Bronde of Boxford (w.p. 1590) as: John Bronde (b. 1534, m. Mary Luffkey 28 Oct 1559), Peter Bronde of Bildeston (obit. 1615, m. Johann Sadler 26 Sep 1562), William Bronde of Boxford (w.p. 1600, m. Susan Chaplyn 10 Oct 1563), and Richard Bronde (obit. 1595/7, m. Rose Veysey 3 Nov 1563). It is peculiar no daughters are mentioned, but since the 1590 will is available at the Suffolk RO, it might be worth investigating, as the chronology would work. Also, several of these Bronde sons named daughters Susan. John Bronde's 1611 will is extensive and perhaps might mention the Cooke family somewhere.

[taf]

On Thursday, January 19, 2023 at 11:35:53 AM UTC-8, James Nathan wrote:
> > Along these lines, looking at familysearch I find a marriage in 1574 at Colchester between Thomas Cooke and Elizabeth Northye, which I think has to be that of Thomas and "Elizabeth North of Colchester" described in the visitation as the second wife. This would set up a chronology of Thomas Cooke m.1 1568, Susan Brand, with children b. 1569-1573, m.2 1574, Elizabeth Northy, and sometime after that m.3 Margaret Rice.

> This assessment seems correct. There are Suffolk feet of fines which mention Thomas Cooke and his wife Margaret beginning in 1579. That fine certainly appears to be for the correct Thomas Cooke, since it involved as plaintiffs Thomas Cooke and Henry Syday (with wife Anne) vs. Geoffrey Syday for properties in Alphamstone, Bures St. Mary, and Lamarshe.
>

Thanks for this. It is always good to have speculation replaced with data. (Plus it is good to see one's instincts weren't leading them astray).

> Regarding the Brand(Bronde) family, there is an extensive pedigree of this family that I obtained from the Suffolk RO, though unfortunately does not mention a Cooke marriage. It lists the children of Ann and Richard Bronde of Boxford (w.p. 1590) as: John Bronde (b. 1534, m. Mary Luffkey 28 Oct 1559), Peter Bronde of Bildeston (obit. 1615, m. Johann Sadler 26 Sep 1562), William Bronde of Boxford (w.p. 1600, m. Susan Chaplyn 10 Oct 1563), and Richard Bronde (obit. 1595/7, m. Rose Veysey 3 Nov 1563). It is peculiar no daughters are mentioned, but since the 1590 will is available at the Suffolk RO, it might be worth investigating, as the chronology would work. Also, several of these Bronde sons named daughters Susan. John Bronde's 1611 will is extensive and perhaps might mention the Cooke family somewhere.

I looked at Suffolk Bronde wills a few months after this was discussed back in 2016, and found absolutely nothing useful to divining the Cooke connection. Those I consulted were:

John Bronde 1468
John Bronde 1480
Peter Bronde 1552
Richard Bronde 1590
Richard Bronde 1595
(John Bronde 1611 - I am not finding the details of this, but I have a note on a Bronde summary file of him having named his 'kinsman John Pootyer' so I must have seen it, and it must not have named Cooke)
Mary Brand 1617
Martha Bronde 1619
Richard Brand 1639
John Brand 1677
Elisabeth Brond 1681

Based on my notes, Richard's 1590 will named no daughters, which need not mean he didn't have any. I had tentatively placed Susan as his daughter, along with Joan m. Roger Lungley.

taf

[James Nathan]

Those I consulted were:
>
> John Bronde 1468
> John Bronde 1480
> Peter Bronde 1552
> Richard Bronde 1590
> Richard Bronde 1595
> (John Bronde 1611 - I am not finding the details of this, but I have a note on a Bronde summary file of him having named his 'kinsman John Pootyer' so I must have seen it, and it must not have named Cooke)
> Mary Brand 1617
> Martha Bronde 1619
> Richard Brand 1639
> John Brand 1677
> Elisabeth Brond 1681
>
> Based on my notes, Richard's 1590 will named no daughters, which need not mean he didn't have any. I had tentatively placed Susan as his daughter, along with Joan m. Roger Lungley.
>
> taf

Thanks for this, as it saves me time. I only scanned the 1611 will quickly, but thought I caught and Edmund Cooke at the end, though again this could be wrong and I wouldn't be able to place that name anyway.

I also thought it might be worthwhile mentioning why the 1561 will of Joan (Syday) Cooke of Pebmarsh possibly had Sewells witness it. Also her father John Syday left things to Sewalls and his will was witnessed by one, so I thought looking into a little. Those families were associated with another beginning in 1456 (449/2/673).

My conclusion was Joan's son Robert Cooke [Jr.], which Davis had limited information on, married a Sewell, since he is called a "brother" in John Sewell's will:

http://www.thekingscandlesticks.com/webs/pedigrees/11586.html

https://archive.org/details/ancestryofbethia00davi/page/86/mode/2up


It does not seem there were many Sewell's at Pembarsh in 1523 to get confused on their ancestry.

Document reference: E 179/108/163
Date: 1523

Location: Pedmarsh
[Selected people and tax paid]
John Syday 26s 4d
Robert Coke 4d
John Cooke 5s
John Sewalle 12d
Robert Syday 2s
Katherine Sydaye widow 12d
John Syday junior 4d

Location: Alphamstone
Thomas Syday 6s
John Sewall 4s
John Syday 4s

[taf]

On Friday, January 20, 2023 at 12:57:50 PM UTC-8, James Nathan wrote:
> Those I consulted were:
> >
> > John Bronde 1468
> > John Bronde 1480
> > Peter Bronde 1552
> > Richard Bronde 1590
> > Richard Bronde 1595
> > (John Bronde 1611 - I am not finding the details of this, but I have a note on a Bronde summary file of him having named his 'kinsman John Pootyer' so I must have seen it, and it must not have named Cooke)
> > Mary Brand 1617
> > Martha Bronde 1619
> > Richard Brand 1639
> > John Brand 1677
> > Elisabeth Brond 1681
> >
> > Based on my notes, Richard's 1590 will named no daughters, which need not mean he didn't have any. I had tentatively placed Susan as his daughter, along with Joan m. Roger Lungley.

> Thanks for this, as it saves me time. I only scanned the 1611 will quickly, but thought I caught and Edmund Cooke at the end, though again this could be wrong and I wouldn't be able to place that name anyway.
>

I left out of my list Anne Brand, 1617

I should have specified nothing useful for the Thomas Cooke and Susan Bronde connection. There are a number of Susans, but nothing to deduce any of them was the wife of Thomas Cooke. The will of Richard Bronde of Boxford, probate 1595, also names Edmund Cooke as 'my son in law'. He names wife Joan, sons Richard (eldest), Thomas, and Abraham (youngest), 'those of my four daughters who are married at the time of my death', specifically names daughters Abigail, Mary and Judith to be paid at age 21 money left them by his father. Cooke is current occupant of property left to Abraham.

taf

[JBrand]

I guess you are saying this son-in-law is someone else, as there were no Edmunds in the Cooke of Pebmarsh family. Or could it be the Cooke of Pebmarsh man?

[taf]

Unclear what you are asking. If you mean whether this 'Edmund' is Thomas of Pedmarch, that seems unlikely as we have two separate wills referring to a (the same?) man of this name. If you mean whether I view Edmund as of the Pedmarch family or a different Cooke family, there is no way to tell.

taf

[JBrand]

I thought Edmund in the Bronde will might be a mistake for Thomas, but, as you say, the name is Edmund in two wills, so not likely.

[James Nathan]

>
> I should have specified nothing useful for the Thomas Cooke and Susan Bronde connection. There are a number of Susans, but nothing to deduce any of them was the wife of Thomas Cooke. The will of Richard Bronde of Boxford, probate 1595, also names Edmund Cooke as 'my son in law'. He names wife Joan, sons Richard (eldest), Thomas, and Abraham (youngest), 'those of my four daughters who are married at the time of my death', specifically names daughters Abigail, Mary and Judith to be paid at age 21 money left them by his father. Cooke is current occupant of property left to Abraham.
>
> taf

From the chronology and onomastics, it would seem Elizabeth Northey as the mother of Elizabeth (Cooke)(Reade) Peter is the better fit. It doesn't seem the Northey family was too large. Richard Northey, the alderman bur. 6 Nov 1572, does have a will (Essex RO, D/ACR 6/328/2), but if he had an unmarried daughter Elizabeth mentioned, it unfortunately would not provide anything concrete.

[taf]

Hmmm. It never sits well to pick as the true mother the only wife not attributed any children by our sources, but with so few and those contradictory, anything is possible I guess.

I found an abstract of the will (1593) of Rev George Northey of Colchester buried in a Google Books preview. It says he left legacies to his wife's children by a former husband, Mary and Anne Challenor, and to his own children by her, Thomas, Nathanial and Sarah, with residual legatees being the children of his brothers-in-law Ricahrd Byrde and John Clere. Nothing of seeming value here.

taf

[James Nathan]

I understand what you mean. All I meant was I know Elizabeth (Cooke)(Reade) Peter was unmarried in 1592. Davis attributes her marriage in 1594, probably based on baptism of first child. Just assuming she would have been around aged 20, thus born c1574, makes either Brand or Northey seem possible.

If you wouldn't mind, taf, you stated:

The published Visitation of Essex cannot be taken as face value - this was drawn from Harleian mss 1542, a copy of the visitation, while the version given by Evidences is supposedly from Harleian mss 1083, a copy of the visitation, 1137 (don't know what this is), and 1432 (a collection of Essex pedigrees). I don't see why one Harleian copy of the visitation should be taken as preferable to another.

Based on a nice summary/lesson you gave me in the Epes post (thank you!), do you think it might be worthwhile for me to obtain exactly what the College of Arms has on file? I am a Daniel Epes/Elizabeth Symonds descendant, so I do not mind dishing out some money if there is even a possibility (albeit low) that it could steer me in the right direction. From that post, you did seem to agree with Mr. Tuck that what he would obtain could be more reliable.

[taf]

On Saturday, January 21, 2023 at 3:53:46 PM UTC-8, James Nathan wrote:

> If you wouldn't mind, taf, you stated:
> The published Visitation of Essex cannot be taken as face value - this was drawn from Harleian mss 1542, a copy of the visitation, while the version given by Evidences is supposedly from Harleian mss 1083, a copy of the visitation, 1137 (don't know what this is), and 1432 (a collection of Essex pedigrees). I don't see why one Harleian copy of the visitation should be taken as preferable to another.
> Based on a nice summary/lesson you gave me in the Epes post (thank you!), do you think it might be worthwhile for me to obtain exactly what the College of Arms has on file? I am a Daniel Epes/Elizabeth Symonds descendant, so I do not mind dishing out some money if there is even a possibility (albeit low) that it could steer me in the right direction. From that post, you did seem to agree with Mr. Tuck that what he would obtain could be more reliable.

We have one source reporting a pedigree based on one copy of the 1634 visitiation made by "Mr. Richard Mundy"(no further details). We have a second source reporting a different pedigree based on three sources: a different copy of the 1634 visitation (no further details), plus a copy of the 1558 visitation, apparently copied by Jacob Chaloner who brought some of the pedigrees down to 1614, and then added to by later owned "Mr John Gough, the Painter-Stainer", fl. 1638, in part from the 1634 visitation, and another copy of the 1634 visitation, either copied by or subsequently owned by John Saunders, painter-stainer.

All of the source manuscripts contain copies or extracts from the same 1634 visitation, yet the resulting reconstructions differ. Getting the original from the College of Arms would specifically answer two questions: In the original vistitation, taken about 60 years after the relevant events, what order of marriages was given (we think we know this), and which wife was given as the mother of the heir, apparently the only child named. It may also include details left out of copies, incidences of copy errors, or information in the copies that were not in the original record.

This is what you will get. I can't tell you whether this is worthwhile, because that is entirely subjective, and would involve weighing personal factors such as your personal financial circumstances and degree of interest in the fine detailsto know whether the cost is worth the likely (and potential) harvest.

taf

[Johnny Brananas]

Returning to the original point of this thread, who are the following persons mentioned in Newport's _Repertorium ecclesiasticum parochiale londinense_?

[concerning Woodham Mortimer, Essex] "In 1567, William Twytton or Twydid preſented twice, in right of Margaret his Wife, late Wife of John Church Gent. to which John Church and Margaret, I find in 6 Eliz. by the Queens Licence, this Mannor of Wodeham-Mortimer was alienated by Leonard Sandell ..."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433003000647&view=1up&seq=700&q1=twytton

The Church family ancestral to the Reades who intermarried with Epes included a John Church with a (second) wife Margaret at Runwell, not too far (maybe 5 or 6 miles) from Woodham Mortimer.

Anyone have ideas about the actual surname of Margaret's second husband? I'm not finding other Twyttons or Twydid in Essex, though there are some Twytts and Tweeds.

[Johnny Brananas]

Walter Goodwin Davis speculated that Leonard Sandell was a connection of the Sandells who intermarried with Lakes behind the John Lake who married Margaret Reade:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89066158148&view=1up&seq=81&q1=leonard%20sandell

[JBrand]

--Thomas Legat.
-- Edmund Churche of Northants.
--The manor of Runwell Hall , leased by Colet , dean , and the chapter , of St. Paul's , to William Ailoffe and assigned by John Gaynsford , knight , and Alice , his wife , late the wife of the said William, to complainant.
--Essex.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/-fMMAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22edmund+churche+of%22+northants+runwell&pg=PA406&printsec=frontco

[JBrand]

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/bB4RAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22edmund+churche%22+-edmund%27s&pg=PA173&printsec=frontcover