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Wikipedia's account of Count Hugues le Grand (died 1101), father of Isabel de Vermandois
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Douglas Richardson
May 12, 2012, 5:38:34 PM5/12/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Recently I happened to read the unfortunate Wikipedia account of Count
Hugues (or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101), which Hugues is the father of
the newsgroup's Ur-mother, Isabel de Vermandois.
Here is what is said in the first paragraph of Wikipedia's account of
Count Hugues (or Hugh) le Grand:
"Hugh I of Vermandois (1057 – October 18, 1101),[1] called Magnus or
the Great, was a younger son of [King] Henry I of France and Anne of
Kiev and younger brother of [King] Philip I. He was in his own right
Count of Vermandois, but an ineffectual leader and soldier, great only
in his boasting. Indeed, Steven Runciman is certain that his nickname
Magnus (greater or elder), applied to him by William of Tyre, is a
copyist's error, and should be Minus (younger), referring to Hugh as
younger brother of the King of France." END OF QUOTE.
We are told above by Wikipedia that Steven Runciman, a well known
historian of the Crusades, is "certain" that Hugues' nickname "le
Grand" (or Latin Magnus) as applied to him by William of Tyre is a
copyist's error. Well that's just patently wrong!
There are many contemporary or near contemporary references to Count
Hugues being styled "le Grand" (or Magnus) in his lifetime or soon
thereafter. While still a young man, for instance, Hugues was styled
"Hugoni magni" in a charter of his brother, King Philippe I, dated
1076 [see the first record below]. Another reference to him as Hugues
le Grand is a charter of Pierre, Abbot of Cluny, dated c.1040 (some
years after Hugues' death), in which he is styled "Hugonis magni,
fratris Philippe regis Francorum"
The listing below is a good cross section of various records which are
available to us which prove that Count Hugues (or Hugh) was definitely
styled "le Grand" [Magnus] and that this is no copyist's error.
1. Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France (1059–1108)
(1908): 217–221 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1076;
charter witnessed by “Hugoni magni, fratris Philipi regis”).
2. Albert of Aix records that "Hugonem Magnum fratrem regis Franciæ,
Drogonem et Clareboldum" were held in chains in prison by the emperor
at Constantinople. Reference: Albert of Aix (RHC), Liber II, Cap. IX,
p. 305. Citation courtesy of Charles Cawley.
3. Robert of Torigny records the death in 1102 of "Hugo Magnus apud
Tarsum." Reference: Chronique de Robert de Torigny I, 1102, p. 124.
Citation courtesy of Charles Cawley.
4. Bruel, Recueil des Chartes de l’Abbaye de Cluny 5 (Coll. de Docs.
inédits sur l'Histoire de France 1st Ser.) (1894): 421–422 (charter
dated c.1140 of Pierre, Abbot of Cluny, names Count Raoul of Perrone,
son of Hugues le Grand, brother of King Philippe I, great friend and
benefactor [Comes Rodulfus de Perrona, filius Hugonis magni, fratris
Philippe regis Francorum, magnus amicus et benefactor].
5. Monumenta Germaniae Historica Scriptorum 13 (1881): 253 (Genealogiæ
Scriptoris Fusniacensis: “Nunc ad Hugonem Magnum revertamur. Hugo
cognomento Magnus, frater Philippi regis Francorum, de Adelaide
comitissa Veromandensium genuit Radulfum comitem Veromandie et
Henricum de Chauni et Simonem episcopum Noviomensem et filias. END OF
QUOTE.
6. Monumenta Germaniae Historica Scriptorum 13 (1881): 257 (De Genere
Comitum Flandrensium Notæ Parisienses: "Comes Herbertus genuit Odonem
et Adelam sororem. Odo fuit fatuus et indiscretus. Barones
Viromandenses rogaverunt regem, ut Adelam daret Hugoni le Magne,
fratri eiusdem regis; quod factum est. De predicto comite Hugone et
predicta Adela uxore sua exivit comes Radulfus, Simon Noviomensis
episcopus, dominus Henricus de Chaumont et quatuor filie." END OF
QUOTE.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Recently I happened to read the unfortunate Wikipedia account of Count
Hugues (or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101), which Hugues is the father of
the newsgroup's Ur-mother, Isabel de Vermandois.
Here is what is said in the first paragraph of Wikipedia's account of
Count Hugues (or Hugh) le Grand:
"Hugh I of Vermandois (1057 – October 18, 1101),[1] called Magnus or
the Great, was a younger son of [King] Henry I of France and Anne of
Kiev and younger brother of [King] Philip I. He was in his own right
Count of Vermandois, but an ineffectual leader and soldier, great only
in his boasting. Indeed, Steven Runciman is certain that his nickname
Magnus (greater or elder), applied to him by William of Tyre, is a
copyist's error, and should be Minus (younger), referring to Hugh as
younger brother of the King of France." END OF QUOTE.
We are told above by Wikipedia that Steven Runciman, a well known
historian of the Crusades, is "certain" that Hugues' nickname "le
Grand" (or Latin Magnus) as applied to him by William of Tyre is a
copyist's error. Well that's just patently wrong!
There are many contemporary or near contemporary references to Count
Hugues being styled "le Grand" (or Magnus) in his lifetime or soon
thereafter. While still a young man, for instance, Hugues was styled
"Hugoni magni" in a charter of his brother, King Philippe I, dated
1076 [see the first record below]. Another reference to him as Hugues
le Grand is a charter of Pierre, Abbot of Cluny, dated c.1040 (some
years after Hugues' death), in which he is styled "Hugonis magni,
fratris Philippe regis Francorum"
The listing below is a good cross section of various records which are
available to us which prove that Count Hugues (or Hugh) was definitely
styled "le Grand" [Magnus] and that this is no copyist's error.
1. Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France (1059–1108)
(1908): 217–221 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1076;
charter witnessed by “Hugoni magni, fratris Philipi regis”).
2. Albert of Aix records that "Hugonem Magnum fratrem regis Franciæ,
Drogonem et Clareboldum" were held in chains in prison by the emperor
at Constantinople. Reference: Albert of Aix (RHC), Liber II, Cap. IX,
p. 305. Citation courtesy of Charles Cawley.
3. Robert of Torigny records the death in 1102 of "Hugo Magnus apud
Tarsum." Reference: Chronique de Robert de Torigny I, 1102, p. 124.
Citation courtesy of Charles Cawley.
4. Bruel, Recueil des Chartes de l’Abbaye de Cluny 5 (Coll. de Docs.
inédits sur l'Histoire de France 1st Ser.) (1894): 421–422 (charter
dated c.1140 of Pierre, Abbot of Cluny, names Count Raoul of Perrone,
son of Hugues le Grand, brother of King Philippe I, great friend and
benefactor [Comes Rodulfus de Perrona, filius Hugonis magni, fratris
Philippe regis Francorum, magnus amicus et benefactor].
5. Monumenta Germaniae Historica Scriptorum 13 (1881): 253 (Genealogiæ
Scriptoris Fusniacensis: “Nunc ad Hugonem Magnum revertamur. Hugo
cognomento Magnus, frater Philippi regis Francorum, de Adelaide
comitissa Veromandensium genuit Radulfum comitem Veromandie et
Henricum de Chauni et Simonem episcopum Noviomensem et filias. END OF
QUOTE.
6. Monumenta Germaniae Historica Scriptorum 13 (1881): 257 (De Genere
Comitum Flandrensium Notæ Parisienses: "Comes Herbertus genuit Odonem
et Adelam sororem. Odo fuit fatuus et indiscretus. Barones
Viromandenses rogaverunt regem, ut Adelam daret Hugoni le Magne,
fratri eiusdem regis; quod factum est. De predicto comite Hugone et
predicta Adela uxore sua exivit comes Radulfus, Simon Noviomensis
episcopus, dominus Henricus de Chaumont et quatuor filie." END OF
QUOTE.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson
May 12, 2012, 6:47:54 PM5/12/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Here are some of the historian Steven Runciman's comments about Count
Hugh le Grand which he published in his book, A History of the
Crusades: The First Crusade and the Foundation of the Kingdom of
Jerusalem, volume 1 (1997): 142.
"The first to leave his home was Hugh, Count of Vermandois, known as
Le Maisné, the younger, a surname translated most inappropriately by
the Latin chroniclers even in his own time as Magnus. He was the
younger son of King Henry I of France and a princess of Scandinavian
origin, Anne of Kiev." END OF QUOTE.
These comments may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uDj9sNezWzEC&pg=PA142
Mr. Runciman is patently wrong that Count Hugh was known as "le
Maisne" [i.e., the younger]. He was definitely known as
"Magnus" [i.e., the grand]. Also Count Hugh's mother was Russian,
although she had a Scandinavian mother.
Here are some of the historian Steven Runciman's comments about Count
Hugh le Grand which he published in his book, A History of the
Crusades: The First Crusade and the Foundation of the Kingdom of
Jerusalem, volume 1 (1997): 142.
"The first to leave his home was Hugh, Count of Vermandois, known as
Le Maisné, the younger, a surname translated most inappropriately by
the Latin chroniclers even in his own time as Magnus. He was the
younger son of King Henry I of France and a princess of Scandinavian
origin, Anne of Kiev." END OF QUOTE.
These comments may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uDj9sNezWzEC&pg=PA142
Mr. Runciman is patently wrong that Count Hugh was known as "le
Maisne" [i.e., the younger]. He was definitely known as
"Magnus" [i.e., the grand]. Also Count Hugh's mother was Russian,
although she had a Scandinavian mother.
CE Wood
May 12, 2012, 7:21:30 PM5/12/12
to
Have you corrected Wikipedia?
CE Wood
CE Wood
Douglas Richardson
May 13, 2012, 10:16:58 AM5/13/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
Wikipedia, the historian Steven Runciman, not to mention Complete
Peerage all take it for granted that Hugh le Grand (died 1101) was
Count of Vermandois. But was he really?
Count Hugh's well known daughter, Isabel de Vermandois, was wife
successively of Robert, Count of Meulan, and William de Warenne, 2nd
Earl of Surrey. Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 496 (sub Surrey)
identifies Isabel's parentage as follows:
"Isabel (or Elizabeth), ... daughter of Hugh de Crépi (styled 'the
Great'), Count of Vermandois (younger son of Henry I, King of France),
by Adelaide, daughter and heiress of Herbert, Count of Vermandois and
Valois" END OF QUOTE
Complete Peerage cites no primary evidence for the title "Count of
Vermandois," only Will. de Jumièges and Orderic who are chroniclers.
Reviewing various contemporary sources, however, I find that Hugues
(or Hugh) occurs in them as "Hugues brother of the king," "Count
Hugues brother of the king," "Hugues le Grand, brother of the king" or
simply "Hugues Count of Crépy," This is what he was known in his
lifetime. So far the only title that I've found attributed to him is
"Count of Crépy." Of course this is different than what Complete
Peerage says "Hugh de Crépi ... Count of Vermandois."
Elsewhere I note that Hardouin, Opera Varia (1733): 612 (sub Antiqua
Numismata) refers to Hugues as Count of Vermandois, but the charter
evidence he supplies does not support that statement.
And Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France refers to
him as "en effet comte de Vermandois" and indexes him under Count of
Valois. But the charter evidence he supplies doesn't support either
title.
Likewise Charles Cawley refers to Hugues as "Comte de Vermandois et de
Valois by right of his wife" but he cites no records which support
that statement.
Here are some of the sources which I've consulted so far:
1. Annales Ordinis S. Benedicti occidentalium monachorum patriarchæ 5
(1713): 95 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1075; charter
witnessed by “Hugues brother of the king” [Hugonis fratris regis].)
2. Carlier, Histoire du Duché de Valois 1 (1764): 346–352 (“Hugues le
Grand commença à prendre la qualité de Comté de Crépy, avant le fin du
onzième siècle.").
3. Gallia Christiana 10 (1751): 207 (letter of Hugh Bishop of Senlis
to the Abbot of Crepy dated c.1095; letter mentions “domni Hugonis
comitis de Crispeio”), 246–247 (charter of King Philippe I dated 1079;
charter witnessed by “comitis Hugonis fratris Regis”), 248 (charter of
Guy, Bishop of Beauvais for church of Esserens dated 1081; charter
names “Philippo rege & Hugone regis fratre de Crispeio & ejus uxore
Adela” and is witnessed by “Hugo de Crispeio” and “Adelae uxoris
Hugonis de Crispeio.”).
4. Academy 15 (1879): 457–458 (Letter of Bishop Ivo dated at beginning
of A.D. 1096: “Ivo, Dei gratia Carnotensis episcopus, clericis
Mellentis .... Perlatum est ad aures nostras quod Mellentinus comes
ducere velit in uxorem filiam Hugonis Crispeiensis comitis; quod fieri
non sinit concors descretorum et canonum sanctio, dicens:
(Conjunctiones consanguineorum fleri prohibemus). Horum autem
consanguinitas nec ignota est, nec remota, sicut testantur et probare
parati sunt praeclari viri de eadem sati prosapia. Dicunt enim quia
Gualterius Albus genuit matrem Gualeranni comitis, qui genuit matrem
Roberti comitis. Item supradictus Gualterius genuit Radulphum patrem
alterius Radulfi, qui genuit Vermandensem comitissam, ex qua nata est
uxor comitis Hugonis, cujus filiam nunc ducere vult Mellentinus
comes.”).
5. Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France (1059–1108)
(1908): cxxxv (Souscriptions des frères du roi. Les frères du roi,
Robert et Hugues ont souscrit quelques diplômes royaux … Quant à la
souscription d’Hugues, on la rencontre de 1067 à 1082. Dan un diplôme
de 1076 on lui a donné le surnom de ‘Grand’, que les historiens lui
ont conservé. Il est ordinairement qualifié simplement frère du roi;
mais un diplôme de janvier 1079 fait précéder son nom du titre de
comte; il était devenu en effet comte de Vermandois par mariage avec
la fille d’Herbert IV.), cxciii, note 1; cxciv, note 1; 137–139
(charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1070; charter witnessed by
“Hugues brother of the king” [Hugonis fratris regis].), 144–145
(charter of King Philippe I dated 1071; charter witnessed by “Hugo,
frater regis.”), 192–193 (charter of King Philippe I dated 1075;
charter witnessed by “Hugonis, fratris regis.”), 197–199 (charter of
King Philippe I of France dated 1075; charter witnessed by “domni
Hugonis, fratris regis Francorum”), 217–221 (charter of King Philippe
1079; charter witnessed by “comitis Hugoni, fratris regis”), 264–266
(charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1080; charter witnessed by
“Hugoni, regis fratre, de Crispeo et ejus uxore”), 271–272 (charter of
King Philippe I dated 1082; charter witnessed by Hugonis, Crispeii
comitis), 272–273 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1082;
charter witnessed by “Hugonis, fratris Regis”), 333–337 (charter of
King Philippe I of France dated 1094; charter witnessed by “Hugonis,
fratris Philippi regis”), 442.
I haven't yet seen Jumièges or Orderic's comments. But in a previous
thread we found that Jumièges got the title of Hugh de Clermont wrong,
so he is perhaps not the best source to use for titles.
One final comment: Although I can find no evidence that Hugues brother
of the king was "Count of Vermandois," I have in fact found several
charters for his widow, Adèle, in which she is styled "Countess of
Vermandois." Carlier says she was also "lady and Countess of Crépy,"
but I haven't yet found her associated with that style.
Wikipedia, the historian Steven Runciman, not to mention Complete
Peerage all take it for granted that Hugh le Grand (died 1101) was
Count of Vermandois. But was he really?
Count Hugh's well known daughter, Isabel de Vermandois, was wife
successively of Robert, Count of Meulan, and William de Warenne, 2nd
Earl of Surrey. Complete Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 496 (sub Surrey)
identifies Isabel's parentage as follows:
"Isabel (or Elizabeth), ... daughter of Hugh de Crépi (styled 'the
Great'), Count of Vermandois (younger son of Henry I, King of France),
by Adelaide, daughter and heiress of Herbert, Count of Vermandois and
Valois" END OF QUOTE
Complete Peerage cites no primary evidence for the title "Count of
Vermandois," only Will. de Jumièges and Orderic who are chroniclers.
Reviewing various contemporary sources, however, I find that Hugues
(or Hugh) occurs in them as "Hugues brother of the king," "Count
Hugues brother of the king," "Hugues le Grand, brother of the king" or
simply "Hugues Count of Crépy," This is what he was known in his
lifetime. So far the only title that I've found attributed to him is
"Count of Crépy." Of course this is different than what Complete
Peerage says "Hugh de Crépi ... Count of Vermandois."
Elsewhere I note that Hardouin, Opera Varia (1733): 612 (sub Antiqua
Numismata) refers to Hugues as Count of Vermandois, but the charter
evidence he supplies does not support that statement.
And Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France refers to
him as "en effet comte de Vermandois" and indexes him under Count of
Valois. But the charter evidence he supplies doesn't support either
title.
Likewise Charles Cawley refers to Hugues as "Comte de Vermandois et de
Valois by right of his wife" but he cites no records which support
that statement.
Here are some of the sources which I've consulted so far:
1. Annales Ordinis S. Benedicti occidentalium monachorum patriarchæ 5
(1713): 95 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1075; charter
witnessed by “Hugues brother of the king” [Hugonis fratris regis].)
2. Carlier, Histoire du Duché de Valois 1 (1764): 346–352 (“Hugues le
Grand commença à prendre la qualité de Comté de Crépy, avant le fin du
onzième siècle.").
3. Gallia Christiana 10 (1751): 207 (letter of Hugh Bishop of Senlis
to the Abbot of Crepy dated c.1095; letter mentions “domni Hugonis
comitis de Crispeio”), 246–247 (charter of King Philippe I dated 1079;
charter witnessed by “comitis Hugonis fratris Regis”), 248 (charter of
Guy, Bishop of Beauvais for church of Esserens dated 1081; charter
names “Philippo rege & Hugone regis fratre de Crispeio & ejus uxore
Adela” and is witnessed by “Hugo de Crispeio” and “Adelae uxoris
Hugonis de Crispeio.”).
4. Academy 15 (1879): 457–458 (Letter of Bishop Ivo dated at beginning
of A.D. 1096: “Ivo, Dei gratia Carnotensis episcopus, clericis
Mellentis .... Perlatum est ad aures nostras quod Mellentinus comes
ducere velit in uxorem filiam Hugonis Crispeiensis comitis; quod fieri
non sinit concors descretorum et canonum sanctio, dicens:
(Conjunctiones consanguineorum fleri prohibemus). Horum autem
consanguinitas nec ignota est, nec remota, sicut testantur et probare
parati sunt praeclari viri de eadem sati prosapia. Dicunt enim quia
Gualterius Albus genuit matrem Gualeranni comitis, qui genuit matrem
Roberti comitis. Item supradictus Gualterius genuit Radulphum patrem
alterius Radulfi, qui genuit Vermandensem comitissam, ex qua nata est
uxor comitis Hugonis, cujus filiam nunc ducere vult Mellentinus
comes.”).
5. Prou, Recueil des Actes de Philippe Ier, Roi de France (1059–1108)
(1908): cxxxv (Souscriptions des frères du roi. Les frères du roi,
Robert et Hugues ont souscrit quelques diplômes royaux … Quant à la
souscription d’Hugues, on la rencontre de 1067 à 1082. Dan un diplôme
de 1076 on lui a donné le surnom de ‘Grand’, que les historiens lui
ont conservé. Il est ordinairement qualifié simplement frère du roi;
mais un diplôme de janvier 1079 fait précéder son nom du titre de
comte; il était devenu en effet comte de Vermandois par mariage avec
la fille d’Herbert IV.), cxciii, note 1; cxciv, note 1; 137–139
(charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1070; charter witnessed by
“Hugues brother of the king” [Hugonis fratris regis].), 144–145
(charter of King Philippe I dated 1071; charter witnessed by “Hugo,
frater regis.”), 192–193 (charter of King Philippe I dated 1075;
charter witnessed by “Hugonis, fratris regis.”), 197–199 (charter of
King Philippe I of France dated 1075; charter witnessed by “domni
Hugonis, fratris regis Francorum”), 217–221 (charter of King Philippe
I of France dated 1076; charter witnessed by “Hugoni magni, fratris
Philipi regis”), 242–245 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated
1079; charter witnessed by “comitis Hugoni, fratris regis”), 264–266
(charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1080; charter witnessed by
“Hugoni, regis fratre, de Crispeo et ejus uxore”), 271–272 (charter of
King Philippe I dated 1082; charter witnessed by Hugonis, Crispeii
comitis), 272–273 (charter of King Philippe I of France dated 1082;
charter witnessed by “Hugonis, fratris Regis”), 333–337 (charter of
King Philippe I of France dated 1094; charter witnessed by “Hugonis,
fratris Philippi regis”), 442.
I haven't yet seen Jumièges or Orderic's comments. But in a previous
thread we found that Jumièges got the title of Hugh de Clermont wrong,
so he is perhaps not the best source to use for titles.
One final comment: Although I can find no evidence that Hugues brother
of the king was "Count of Vermandois," I have in fact found several
charters for his widow, Adèle, in which she is styled "Countess of
Vermandois." Carlier says she was also "lady and Countess of Crépy,"
but I haven't yet found her associated with that style.
Douglas Richardson
May 14, 2012, 12:05:32 PM5/14/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
(or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
Vermandois:
Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
“Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
filiam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
comitem, peperit.”).
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
"known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
(or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
Vermandois:
Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
“Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
filiam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
comitem, peperit.”).
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
"known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
Wjhonson
May 15, 2012, 4:03:41 PM5/15/12
to royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
"Orderic corrects Runciman"
Usually for someone to correct someone else, they must first acknowledge the quote, and also they would have to be writing after the second person.
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
Dear Newsgroup ~
In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
ermandois:
Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
iliam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
omitem, peperit.”).
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
------------------------------
The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
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David Teague
May 15, 2012, 11:14:09 PM5/15/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Don't be quite so pedantic. The clear meaning from the context is that we are meant to use Orderic to correct Runciman, based on Orderic's greater authority re the subject under discussion. While DR's wording was perhaps not the best or most precise it could have been, his meaning was clear enough.
> To: royala...@msn.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
> From: wjho...@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:03:41 -0400
>
>
> "Orderic corrects Runciman"
>
> Usually for someone to correct someone else, they must first acknowledge the quote, and also they would have to be writing after the second person.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 3:28 pm
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
>
>
>
> "Orderic corrects Runciman"
>
> Usually for someone to correct someone else, they must first acknowledge the quote, and also they would have to be writing after the second person.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 3:28 pm
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
> ermandois:
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> iliam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
> omitem, peperit.”).
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> ------------------------------
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Wjhonson
May 15, 2012, 11:45:43 PM5/15/12
to davt...@hotmail.com, royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Using Orderic to correct Runciman would be a mistake in this case.
Orderic is a primary source. Runciman was a British historian known for his work on the Middle Ages.
He is the author of a great variety of works, mostly on Byzantium, but also on the Crusades.
That we should use *one* work to correct a work with *dozens* of sources, pyramids history on its head.
Rather we should bide our time until our great forum historian has himself consulted more sources and discovered for himself (as he surely will) why Runciman made the statement, and secondly whether we can say it's a good statement or not.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Teague <davt...@hotmail.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royalancestry <royala...@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 8:19 pm
Subject: RE: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
Don't be quite so pedantic. The clear meaning from the context is that we are meant to use Orderic to correct Runciman, based on Orderic's greater authority re the subject under discussion. While DR's wording was perhaps not the best or most precise it could have been, his meaning was clear enough.
> To: royala...@msn.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
> From: wjho...@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:03:41 -0400
>
>
> "Orderic corrects Runciman"
>
> Usually for someone to correct someone else, they must first acknowledge the quote, and also they would have to be writing after the second person.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 3:28 pm
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
> ermandois:
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> iliam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
> omitem, peperit.”).
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
Douglas Richardson
May 16, 2012, 1:58:42 AM5/16/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
I earlier posted a reference to Hugues le Grand, as Count of Crépy, as
found in Orderic Vitalis, an early chronicler.
Below is another such reference. In this second item, Orderic refers
to Hugh as Count of Crepy in 1096, the year he left on the crusade to
the Holy Land. Orderic also mentions the marriage of Count Hugh's
daughter, Isabel, who married Robert, Count of Meulan, in that year.
Migne, Orderici Vitalis (Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188) (1855):
657 ("Eodem anno [1096], Hugo Crispeii comes Radulfo et Henrico,
filiis suis, terram suam commisit, et Ysabel filiam suam Rodberto de
Mellento comiti dedit, et pregre proficiscens, secum nobile agmen
Francorum adduxit.").
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Comments are appreciated. But please provide your sources and add
weblinks if you have them.
I earlier posted a reference to Hugues le Grand, as Count of Crépy, as
found in Orderic Vitalis, an early chronicler.
Below is another such reference. In this second item, Orderic refers
to Hugh as Count of Crepy in 1096, the year he left on the crusade to
the Holy Land. Orderic also mentions the marriage of Count Hugh's
daughter, Isabel, who married Robert, Count of Meulan, in that year.
Migne, Orderici Vitalis (Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188) (1855):
657 ("Eodem anno [1096], Hugo Crispeii comes Radulfo et Henrico,
filiis suis, terram suam commisit, et Ysabel filiam suam Rodberto de
Mellento comiti dedit, et pregre proficiscens, secum nobile agmen
Francorum adduxit.").
The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
Comments are appreciated. But please provide your sources and add
weblinks if you have them.
mike
May 16, 2012, 4:11:56 PM5/16/12
to
On May 16, 6:58 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I earlier posted a reference to Hugues le Grand, as Count of Crépy, as
> found in Orderic Vitalis, an early chronicler.
>
> Below is another such reference. In this second item, Orderic refers
> to Hugh as Count of Crepy in 1096, the year he left on the crusade to
> the Holy Land. Orderic also mentions the marriage of Count Hugh's
> daughter, Isabel, who married Robert, Count of Meulan, in that year.
>
> Migne, Orderici Vitalis (Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188) (1855):
> 657 ("Eodem anno [1096], Hugo Crispeii comes Radulfo et Henrico,
> filiis suis, terram suam commisit, et Ysabel filiam suam Rodberto de
> Mellento comiti dedit, et pregre proficiscens, secum nobile agmen
> Francorum adduxit.").
>
> The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magn...
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> I earlier posted a reference to Hugues le Grand, as Count of Crépy, as
> found in Orderic Vitalis, an early chronicler.
>
> Below is another such reference. In this second item, Orderic refers
> to Hugh as Count of Crepy in 1096, the year he left on the crusade to
> the Holy Land. Orderic also mentions the marriage of Count Hugh's
> daughter, Isabel, who married Robert, Count of Meulan, in that year.
>
> Migne, Orderici Vitalis (Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188) (1855):
> 657 ("Eodem anno [1096], Hugo Crispeii comes Radulfo et Henrico,
> filiis suis, terram suam commisit, et Ysabel filiam suam Rodberto de
> Mellento comiti dedit, et pregre proficiscens, secum nobile agmen
> Francorum adduxit.").
>
> The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
> Comments are appreciated. But please provide your sources and add
> weblinks if you have them.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
You seem to have gone into this in great detail, and i don't have any
> Comments are appreciated. But please provide your sources and add
> weblinks if you have them.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
extra sources to add, but a question: you say Hugh died 1101, but
most of the accounts on the web, say he died in a quarrel at Tarsus
18 March 1102. Is there also some dispute over the year of his death?
I think that Odo of Vermandois, his brother in law was disinherited
by his father becos he was foolish or deluded, perhaps mentally
incapable
in some way. His mother was the daughter of Raoul of Vermandois,
who had married the Queen regent Anne of kiev, Hughs mother, and so
arranged a marriage for her younger son, to Adelaide of Vermandois.
As
to why Hugh was called Magnus: his brother was called Philip the Fat,
maybe Magnus referred to his size: maybe Hugh was a big tall man.
mike
David Teague
May 17, 2012, 1:11:10 AM5/17/12
to wjho...@aol.com, royala...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Ah, but that's another question. All I responded to was a particular bit of verbiage on your part.
To: davt...@hotmail.com; royala...@msn.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 23:45:43 -0400
Using Orderic to correct Runciman would be a mistake in this case.
Orderic is a primary source. Runciman was a British historian known for his work on the Middle Ages.
He is the author of a great variety of works, mostly on Byzantium, but also on the Crusades.
That we should use *one* work to correct a work with *dozens* of sources, pyramids history on its head.
Rather we should bide our time until our great forum historian has himself consulted more sources and discovered for himself (as he surely will) why Runciman made the statement, and secondly whether we can say it's a good statement or not.
-----Original Message-----
From: David Teague <davt...@hotmail.com>
To: wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>; royalancestry <royala...@msn.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tue, May 15, 2012 8:19 pm
Subject: RE: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
Don't be quite so pedantic. The clear meaning from the context is that we are meant to use Orderic to correct Runciman, based on Orderic's greater authority re the subject under discussion. While DR's wording was perhaps not the best or most precise it could have been, his meaning was clear enough.
> To: royala...@msn.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
> From: wjho...@aol.com
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 16:03:41 -0400
>
>
> "Orderic corrects Runciman"
>
> Usually for someone to correct someone else, they must first acknowledge the quote, and also they would have to be writing after the second person.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Mon, May 14, 2012 3:28 pm
> Subject: Re: Was Hugues le Grand (died 1101) Count of Vermandois?
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> In the citation below, Orderic Vitalis specifically refers to Hugues
> or Hugh) le Grand (died 1101) as Count of Crépy, not Count of
> ermandois:
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> Migne, Patrologiae Cursus Completus 188 (1855): 515 (Orderici Vitalis:
> Henricus autem, Francorum rex, Bertradam, Julii Claudii regis Russiæ
> iliam, uxorem duxit, quæ Philippum, et Hugonem Magnum, Crispeii
> omitem, peperit.”).
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> The above may be viewed at the following weblink:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=e_AQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PT3&dq=Hugo+magnus+Crispeii+comes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cBSxT-TPIIeYiQLntajnAw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Hugo%20magnus%20Crispeii%20comes&f=false
> Orderic once again corrects Runciman's statement that Count Hugues was
> known as Le Maisné." Runciman is just plain wrong.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
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