The *other* Nicholas Carrew
judy perry
I write to inquire if anyone has any specific information which links
the first (or second?) wife of Sir Nicholas Carew of Beddington to
Isabella Delamare.
About 20 years ago I came upon a reference to this Nicholas' tomb at
Beddington in Herbert Haines' 1861 "A Manual of Monumental Brasses.
Part II." (Oxford & London: J H & Jas Parker), p. 197. Haines was
confused as to whether the Isabella who shared this tomb with Nicholas
was the first or second wife, and, moreover, whether she was a
Delamare (as if often repeated in popular genealogy sites) or a Roet.
Fast forward to this week when a kind gentleman in the UK most
graciously photographed said tomb at Beddington, particularly the
heraldry associated with Isabella... which looks most definitely like
St. Catherine wheels:
http://jperryl.ecs.fullerton.edu/Catherine+Wheels.jpg
http://jperryl.ecs.fullerton.edu/Another+image+of+the+wheels.jpg
There are regrettably no tinctures, of course. The inscription
indicates that Nicholas d. 1432. His father, another Nicholas, seems
to have been keeper of the Privy Seal for Edward III
(http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/CAREW2.htm), dying 1390. This would
seem to make the Nicholas Carew who d. 1432 likely the same person
who, of the same name, served as sheriff of Sussex in 15 Richard II
(County Genealogies, Pedigrees of the Families of the County of
Sussex" by William Berry, London, 1830; Pages vii - xi).
Isabella almost certainly predeceased him and by quite a few years, as
I believe A2A has some notices of his other wife Mercy being his wife
as early as 2 or 3 Henry V:
Piece details: E 210/4135
Nicholas de Carreu, esquire, of Beddington, co. Surrey, and Mercy his
wife to Edmund Grymston, citizen and vintner of London, and Isabel his
wife : Grant of two messuages, etc. ( as in E210/4123 ) in All
Hallows, Gracechurch : London.
3 Hen. V.
Does anyone have any ideas for the finding of Roet-family resembling
wheels on Isabella's tomb? Or places to begin looking (come September
when my part-time faculty status is affirmed and my interlibrary loan
privileges are restored!)?
Kindest thanks for your time,
Judy
Sutliff
Hertfordshire and his wife Alice (which I have not researched nor varified).
VCH Berks III:418 suggests that Isabel was dead by 1398 when Nicholas
married Mercy Hayme. All 15 children of the second marriage predeceased
their parents. Curiously I am working on some identity conflicts in the
Oxenbridge ancestry of Malyn Oxenbridge, wife of Sir Richard Carew
(1469-1520), great grandson of Nicholas and Isabel..
Best of luck,
Henry Sutliff
"judy perry" <katheryn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b471b39a.0407...@posting.google.com...
Alex Maxwell Findlater
the daughter of Sir Payne Roet. The arms are obviously punning.
There are many Delamere arms, none of which are remotely like your
picture.
Peter Stewart
If you mean "canting" arms with the wheels being a pun on Catherine, can
you be sure that these arms were actually borne by the father of a woman
of that name, and not just accredited to him retrospectively after being
devised for his descendant?
Peter Stewart
ADRIANC...@aol.com
writes:
I wondered if it came from the name Roet, from rotate or something like that.
(What is the latin for rotate?)
I note that St Catherine is the patron saint of millers, wheelwrights and
other things that rotate.
Adrian
Peter Stewart
> In a message dated 17/07/04 08:34:03 GMT Daylight Time, p_m_s...@msn.com
> writes:
>
>
>>Alex Maxwell Findlater wrote:
>>
>>>Roet arms: Gules three catherine wheels or. The poet Chaucer married
>>>the daughter of Sir Payne Roet. The arms are obviously punning.
>>>There are many Delamere arms, none of which are remotely like your
>>>picture.
>>
>>If you mean "canting" arms with the wheels being a pun on Catherine, can
>>you be sure that these arms were actually borne by the father of a woman
>>of that name, and not just accredited to him retrospectively after being
>>devised for his descendant?
>>
>>Peter Stewart
>>
>
>
> I wondered if it came from the name Roet, from rotate or something like that.
> (What is the latin for rotate?)
The verb is rotare (to turn), the noun rota (a wheel).
>
> I note that St Catherine is the patron saint of millers, wheelwrights and
> other things that rotate.
The legend of St Catherine is that she was to be broken on a spiked
wheel for refusing to abjure Christianity and marry the emperor
(supposedly Maxentius - I guess he had proposed with a forked tongue).
The wheel fell to bits and she was miraculously saved for a different
martyrdom later.
According to Lindsay Brook, the father of John of Gaunt's third wife may
have been descended from the lords of Roeulx, whose arms were "vert, a
lion argent, armed [teeth and claws] and langued gules, holding in its
dexter paw a wheel", a play on the word "roue" (wheel) [see 'The
Ancestry of Sir Paon de Ruet, father-in-law of Geoffrey Chaucer and John
"of Gaunt"', _Foundations_ 1 (2003) p 55.
The modern family of Roeult apparently quarters Gules three wheels
argent - but for all I know they may have picked this up from the arms
attributed to Sir Paon. I've never seen an explanation of why he is said
to have switched his own, if that's the story.
Peter Stewart
judy perry
Yes, after a fashion. St. Catherine wheels are obviously a
double-canting or punning coat for Katherine Roet Swynford; the
novelist Anya Seton has Gaunt devising the coat for her especially for
this very reason.
As for wheels for Roet, it is recorded in a 1911 Harleian Society
Publications: (Vol. LXII, 1911, "The
Visitation of the County of Warwick" 1682/3, ed. W. Harry Rylands, pp.
154-5):
"To all gentelmen and wemen these letters present heringe or seeinge
humbely
comendacon by me Kinge of Armes of the duchie of Guyan Seruant of
Armes..."
dated 1334 and which had a seal attached, which is sketched and
described textually as ""Gules three
Catharine Wheels Or, 2 and 1: Arms of Sir Payne Roet, Knt.".
However, the drawing, presumably made in 1682/3 upon viewing the
actual wax seal itself, clearly displays plain wheels, not spiked
Catherine wheels.
Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<Mr4Kc.4265$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
judy perry
those of the modern town of Le Roeulx. The medieval family's arms
were thus described in the Wijnbergen Roll:
Or three lions rampant gules (for Eustache V de Roeulx).
This is also the arms given for Roeulx in the later 14th-century
Armorial de Gelre and the 16th century Armorial Lalaing; these can all
be found at the following URLs:
http://briantimms.com/wijnbergen/wnhainault.htm
http://www.heraldique-europeene.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F84v.htm
And it is true that Rietstrap's Armorial General record Roeulx arms as
"gu., a trios roues d'arg".
Interestingly, Fastre de Ruet, brother of the last Lord of Roeulx,
seemingly sold off remaining family holdings in Trith and Maing to the
County of Hainault in return for usufruct usage; he then goes off to
fight the Scots for the English in 1326 and dies in what A.S. Cook
calls "pecuniary straits" in 1331:
Cook, Alberg Stanburrough (1919). Chaucerian Papers-I. Transactions
of the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences, 23, p. 59.
Trotin, Les seigneurs de Trith et Maing, as cited/found at:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/maing.aspm/pages/chronologie.htm
Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<uz8Kc.4662$K53...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
judy perry
Charles II, by Dingley showing three plain wheels on gules impaled
with the arms of the See of London on the ceiling of Old St. Paul's.
They were in a series of ~15th c. painted shields.
Dingley, Thomas (1868). History from Marble: Compiled in the reign of
charles II, vol. 2. Camden Society Publications, pp. 134-135; 445.
Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<Mr4Kc.4265$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Alex Maxwell Findlater
can
> you be sure that these arms were actually borne by the father of a woman
> of that name, and not just accredited to him retrospectively after being
> devised for his descendant?
>
> Peter Stewart
No, Rouet is French for a wheel, often a spinning wheel, also the
wheel in a flint-lock, which looks much like the jagged edged wheels
in the Roet arms, though it may be anachronistic, but then the
flint-lock may be called a rouet, because rouet means a jagged-edged
wheel. It occurred to me because of the Rouet d'Omphale.
Peter Stewart
I thought rouet was a small pulley wheel, not realising that it could be
a spinning wheel or otherwise spiked like the Catherine wheel.
Perhaps Sir Paon took advantage of his position as a herald to reinvent
the family arms, and the name of his daughter was either a coincidence
or maybe a result of the choice - a "canting" baptism.
Peter Stewart
judy perry
Rodio, Roet, Ruet, Roelt, Roeulx...
maxwellf...@hotmail.com (Alex Maxwell Findlater) wrote in message news:> No, Rouet is French for a wheel, often a spinning wheel, also the
judy perry
and no spiked wheels that I am aware of (other than in religious
usage) for a good additional 45-50 years.
Peter Stewart <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:<VyqKc.5732$K53....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Hello,
>
> I write to inquire if anyone has any specific information which links
> the first (or second?) wife of Sir Nicholas Carew of Beddington to
> Isabella Delamare.
>
> About 20 years ago I came upon a reference to this Nicholas' tomb at
> Beddington in Herbert Haines' 1861 "A Manual of Monumental Brasses.
> Part II." (Oxford & London: J H & Jas Parker), p. 197. Haines was
> confused as to whether the Isabella who shared this tomb with Nicholas
> was the first or second wife, and, moreover, whether she was a
> Delamare (as if often repeated in popular genealogy sites) or a Roet.
>
> Fast forward to this week when a kind gentleman in the UK most
> graciously photographed said tomb at Beddington, particularly the
> heraldry associated with Isabella... which looks most definitely like
> St. Catherine wheels:
>
> http://jperryl.ecs.fullerton.edu/Catherine+Wheels.jpg
> http://jperryl.ecs.fullerton.edu/Another+image+of+the+wheels.jpg
>
> There are regrettably no tinctures, of course.
The Surrey Archaeological Collections book "Ancient Stained and Painted
Glass in Churches of Surrey" by A V Peatley, pub 1930 has on p. 30 an
account of the glass in Beddington church:
"No ancient glass remains in this church now, but in the early 17th
century [1611, see below] heraldic MS. at the British Museum. by
Nicholas Charles, Lancaster Herald (Lansdowne 874, fo. 38 v.), are the
following note on heraldic glass then remaining there:
"'In Bedington Church, in Surrey taken the 17 day of June by me Nich:
Charles Lancaster Anno Dni: 1611'
...
"'(3) The same [Carew] impaling 'gu., 3 catherine wheels arg.''"
These are different tinctures to those of Roet (or Swinford) which
were: Gu. three catherine-wheels or .
In Fairbairn's Ordinary of Arms, Gu. 3 catherine wheels arg, are
ascribed to Espeke or Espec of York or Streete of Strete or Wheeler.
To those three families perhaps should now be added, Delamere, if only
we had some reference to whatever document that says that Isabel Carew's
maiden name was Delamere.
I might add that in 1930, A V Peatley, the author of this book, said
that the surname of Isabel was not known and that the surname of Nich:
Carew's second wife Mercy was Delamere. This "error" was repeated in
other publications of the Surrey Arch Society of 1912 and 1964, though
the copy of the last that I inspected had the names corrected in pencil
- but with no suggestion of why.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
ADRIANC...@aol.com
It may or may not be relevant that Nicholas Carrew's father, another Nicholas
had wardship of the lands of Thomas Rote (= Roet?)
From A2A file: <Surrey History Centre: Carew Family of Beddington, Records>
Reference: 2163/1/6Rental of Nicholas de Carreu of Beddington of various
lands and tenements once of Richard Weleby. Rental of Nicholas de Carreu of the
lands and tenements of Thomas Rote son and heir of Arnold Rote, in the custody
of the said Nicholas during the minority of the said Thomas.
Creation dates: 3 Aug 1374
Physical characteristics: Parchment.
If he also had custody of a Rote daughter, she may have become an unrecorded
1st wife of Nicholas Carrew the son?
regards,
Adrian
judy perry
FWIW, arms tentatively identified as those of Roet painted on the
ceiling of Old St. Paul's and recorded by Dingley were gules, three
wheels argent, which tallies well with the Surrey window record (1).
Rietstrap gives as the Hainault Roet's arms gu., a trios roues d'arg
(2). A 15th c. Harleian MS, noted by Ruud, shows "at the foot of the
page is tricked a shield of gules with a silver wheel which is to be
'qwartly with chawcrys'". A note in a later 16th c. hand adds "this
is ment for Sir Payne Roet". (3). The arms on Thomas Chaucer's tomb
are Gules, three wheels or. Katherine Swynford herself left vestments
to Lincoln Cathedral, of both "iij wheils of sylver in the hoodes ..."
and "coopes of Rede velvette wt kateryn wheils of gold" (4).
So, presently, the window coupled with the wheels on the brass look
suspiciously more like Roet than they do like Delemare... For me, at
least.
(1) Dingley, Thomas (1868 but a reprint of a Charles II-era
visitation). History from Marble: compiled in the reign of Charles
II., Vol. 2, pp. 134-5; 445.
(2) Rietstrap, J B (1965). Armourial General. Vol. II. Baltmore:
Genealogical Publishing Co., p. 592.
(3) Ruud, Martin B (1926; reprinted in 1972: New York: AMS Press).
VII. Thomas Chaucer: Son of the Poet. In: Thomas chaucer. Studies in
Language and Literature, No. 9. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota
Press, p. 76.
(4) Anon. (1892). Inventories of Plate, Vestments, etc., belonging to
the Cathedral Church of the Blessed Mary of Lincoln. Archaeologia: or
Miscellaneous Tracts relating to Antiquity. Second Series, Vol. III.
London: Society of Antiquaries, pp. 23-25; 49-50.
Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message news:<035999d...@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...