Ancestry of Stephen and Robert de Turnham: John de Tong
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
A small addition can be made to the ancestry of Robert de Turnham
and his brother Stephen de Turnham. Among the charters of grants to
Bayham priory are those of Robert and Stephen, their father Robert,
and uncle Michael de Turnham [1]. One charter in particular, that of
Robert de Turnham, in part confirms the grants of his uncle Michael
de Turnham in Blechenden and other nearby lands in Kent [2]. Of
particular note, the confirmation of same by King John on 6 April
1210 confirms among others the grants 'of the gift of Michael son of
John de Tong, 10 acres of land with appurtenances in Tong...' ["De
dono Michaelis filii Johannis de Tonge x. acras terrae, cum
pertinentiis, in Tonge..."] [3].
The following pedigree traces the descent of several families
from the aforesaid John de Tong, including the de Braose children of
Alice le Rus. Should anyone of the list have access to other sources
(KSB K-R's Domesday Descendants, perhaps) that might provide a link
to this John de Tong, this ancestry might yet be extended further.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES (to post):
[1] Sir William Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum (London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830), VI:911 et seq.
[2] Ibid., VI:912, Num. VIII :
‘ Sciant praesentes et futuri, quod ego Robertus de Turnham, assensu
et voluntate domini mei Ricardi comitis de Clare, dedi et concessi et
praesenti carta confirmavi Deo et sanctae Mariae et canonicis ordinis
Praemonstratensis, qui manserunt apud Brokeley, et succesoribus suis,
totam terram meam de Begeham, cum omnibus pertinentiis suis, in puram
et perpetuam elemosinam, liberam et quietam ab omni servicio et
seculari exactione, ad abbatiam ibidem construendam in honore Dei et
beatae Mariae. Item dedi eisdem canonicis, in puram, liberam, et
perpetuam elemosinam, totam terram de Brokeley, cum omnibus
pertinentiis suis; habendam et tenendam de Galfrido de Say et
haeredibus suis, libere et quiete. Reddendo inde eis annuatim apud
Grenewicum xii’d pro omni servicio et seculari exactione, et terram
de Kingeswude in Sandrig, quam emi de Willielmo de Kaio. Has
praedictas terras cum omnibus pertinentiis suis dedi eisdem
canonicis, assensu et voluntate dominorum meorum; habendas et
tenendas, sicut praedictum est, libere et quiete ab omni servicio et
seculari exactione, secta, consuetudine, et demanda, quae super
terram eveniunt vel evenire possunt, sicut aliqua elemosina melius et
liberius dari potest. Praeterea dedi eisdem canonicis, in liberam et
perpetuam elemosinam, terram quam habui apud Rokeland de monachis
sancti Martini de Bosco; reddendo inde annuatim eisdem monachis v.
solidos pro omni servicio et seculari exactione ad festum sancti
Michaelis. Item dedi eisdem terram de Grimbroc, quam tenui de
monachis sancti Pancracii de Lewes; reddendo eisdem monachis ii.
solidos ad festum sancti Michaellis pro omni servicio: item dedi eis
terram, quam emi de Gunnora et de filiis suis in Sandrig, juxta
abbaciam, versus aquilonem; reddendo eisdem annuatim duos solidos pro
omni servicio. Praeter has praedictas donationes concessi et
praesenti carta confirmavi praedictis canonicis, omnes donationes,
quod Michael de Turneham avunculus meus eis dedit; videlicit terras
de Blechinden, et de Winbrig, et de Estelrige, et de Matefeld, et de
Faukerige, et Wichilinden, et terram quae vocatur terra Nicholai; et
totum manerium de Rokeley, et Grimbroc, et Childherst, cum hominibus
et redditibus; et cum omnibus aliis pertinentiis suis; habenda et
tenenda in perpetuum libere et quiete, integre, et plenarie, sine
aliquo retenemento, sicut praedictus Michael vel ego illa unquam
melius et liberius aliquo tempore tenuimus. Has praedictas
donationes et confirmationes feci eisdem canonicis pro anima domini
mei regis Ricardi, et pro salute domini mei regis Johannis, et
liberorum suorum; et pro salute mea, et pro animabus omnium
antecessorum et successorum meorum; et ego et haeredes mei
warantizabimus eisdem canonicis omnes praedictas donationes et
confirmationes contra omnes homines et omnes feminas. ’
[Ex cod. MS. in bibl. Cotton. (sub effigie Othonis A. 2.)
fol. 34 a. ]
[3] Ibid., VI:914, Num. XVIII :
' Johannes Dei gratia rex Angliae, &c., omnibus fidelibus at quos
praesens carta pervenerit, salutem. Sciatis nos, intuitu Dei,
concessise et hac carta nostrat confirmasse abbatiae de Begeham, et
canonicis ibidem Deo servientibus, omnia tenementa subscripta, et
subscriptas concessiones; scilicet de concessione Elae de Saukeville
translationem sedis abbatiae de Oteham, factam, usque at Begeham,
quae dicitur Beuliu; et omnes res et possessiones et tenementa, quae
praefati canonici tenent de feodo ipsius Elae. Item de dono ejusdem
Elae, totam terram quam Alwinus Crop tenuit de Radulfo de Dene patre
suo, in marisco de Pluenham. De dono Willielmi de Kaieu, totam
terram, quam idem Willielmus habuit in Sandrigge de feodo de
Ailesford. De dono Michaelis filii Johannis de Tonge x. acras
terrae, cum pertinentiis, in Tonge, scilicet medietatem totius terrae
de Tonge.........
Quae volumus, &c. Data per manum R. de Marisco apud Cnapp, sexto
die Aprilis, anno regni nostri xii. ‘ [Mon. Angl. VI(2):914, Num.
XVIII, cites Pat. 6 Edw. III. p. 2, m. 30, per Inspex.]
1 John de Tong
----------------------------------------
' Johannis de Tonge', charter of King John confirming grants of his son
Michael to Bayham Abbey, dated 6 April 1210 [Mon. Angl. VI(2):914, Num. XVIII[1],
cites Pat. 6 Edw. III. p. 2, m. 30, per Inspex.]
Children: Robert (-1174)
Michael
1.1 Robert de Turnham
----------------------------------------
Death: 1174[2]
of Thurnham, Kent
held three fees of Walkelini Mamignot (Walchelin Maminot), 1166
[Sutliff, cites Red Book of the Exchequer[2]]
founder of Combwell priory: an inspeximus of Henry III (dated at
Westminster, 6 July, 1227) confirms the gift of the church of St.
Mary of Turnham, previously confirmed by Stephen de Turnham:
' ...donationem Roberti de Turnham patris mei,..'
[Mon.Angl. VI(1):412-3, Num. 1[1]]
benefactor of Bayham priory:
' Robertus de Turneham', gave the land of Rokeland to Bayham abbey,
which his brother Michael held of him by the service of 1/6 of a
knight's fee [Mon. Angl. VI(2):913, Num. XII[1]]
Children: Robert (-1211)
Stephen (-1214)
John
Gilbert
1.1.1 Robert de Turnham
----------------------------------------
Death: 1211[3],[4]
Occ: Seneschal of Anjou
of Brokeley and Greenwich
Seneschal of Anjou 1199 and of Poitou, 1204 (CP Vol VIII (Mauley),
p. 555n)[5]
redeemed the manor of Doncaster from pledge to Henry II [Henry I per
CP], 1197 for 500 marks[5]
companion of Richard Coeur-de-Lion on the 3rd Crusade:
Governor [Justiciar] of Cyprus together with Richard de Camville,
appointed June 1191[6]
one of the hostages for the ransom of Richard I at Worms,
4 Feb 1193/4[7]
defended Poitou against invasion by Philip of France (captured
1204)[8]
'Robertus de Turnham', benefactor of Bayham priory - gave lands of
his own, and confirmed grants of his uncle Michael de Turnham
['Michael de Turneham avunculis meus' ] during the reign of King
John, before 17 Mar 1207/08 [Mon.Angl. VI(2):912, Num. VIII, IX;
confirmed by King John, 17 Mar 1207/08 - Mon.Angl. VI(2):913-4,
Num. XVII[1]]
Spouse: Joan Fossard
Death: bef 13 Oct 1220[5]
Father: William Fossard (-1195)
Children: Isabel (-<1237)
1.1.1.1 Isabel de Turnham
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 22 Jan 1237[5]
heiress of Fossard inheritance (Mulgrave and Doncaster, co. York)[5]
these lands also included West Cottingwith [VCH III:114[9]]
Spouse: Piers de Mauley
Death: bef 22 Dec 1241[5]
Marr: ca 1214[5]
Children: Piers (>1221-<1279)
Robert
Stephen
Hilary
1.1.2 Stephen de Turnham
----------------------------------------
Death: 1214[10]
of Great Berwick, co. Salop
Seneschal of Anjou[11]
the King's marshal[10]
confirmed the grant by his father of the church of St. Mary of
Turnham, and other gifts, to Combwell priory [inspeximus of Henry III
(dated at Westminster, 6 July, 1227)] confirms the gift of the church
of St. Mary of Turnham, previously confirmed by Stephen de Turnham:
' ...donationem Roberti de Turnham patris mei,..', which Stephen
confirmed ca. 1189-1199:
' pro anima Henrici regis, et pro anima Ricardi regis, et pro animabus
dominorum meorum,...pro salute animae meae, et Edelinae uxoris
meae,..'
Witnesses: ' Roberto de Turnham fratre meo, Ricardo Malherbe, Williamo
Haunsard,.' and others [Mon.Angl. VI/1:412-3, Num. 1[1]]
participant in the Third Crusade; envoy of King Richard in the
negotiations at Jerusalem with Saladin and his brother al-Adil,
March 1192 (Runciman, Vol III, p. 63)[12]
held the manor of Frobury, co. Hants. 'in right of his wife until
his death'[Goff, citing Testa de Nevill 235 [Book of Fees, i, 251]
and Red Bk. of Exch., ii, 460][13]
also held the manor of Catteshall, Surrey (in dispute re: the Bendings
subsequently)[14]
concerning the heirs of Stephen de Turnham, Rosie Bevan cited
'... a curia regis suit in the Trinity term of
1220, in which Edelina de Broc sued Richard Malherbe for 4L 18s. rent,
and William de Bathonia for 25 acres of meadow and 12 1/2 of wood
with appurtenances in Artingdon, Surrey. They in turn called to
warrant the heirs of Stephen de Turnham who were Thomas de
Bavelingham and Mabel his wife, Adam de Bendenges and Alice his wife,
Ralph de Fay and Beatrice hiswife, Roger de Leyburn, Ralph fitz
Bernard and Alianore his wife. [CRR v.IX, p.85]' - Rosie Bevan,
"Turnham"[15]
Spouse: Edeline de Broc
Death: aft 29 Apr 1221[10],[16]
Father: Sir Ranulf de Broc (-1187)
Mother: Damietta de Goram (-1204)
Children: Mabel
Alice
Beatrice (-<1246)
Alianor
Clemence
1.1.2.1 Mabel de Turnham
----------------------------------------
coheir of Stephen de Turnham
living 1220, identified in Curia Regis Rolls as '..Thomam de
Bavelingeham et Mabiliam uxorem ejus ..."[CRR v.IX, p.85][15]
Spouse: Thomas de Bavelingham[13]
1.1.2.2 Alice de Turnham
----------------------------------------
coheir of Stephen de Turnham
living 1220, identified in Curia Regis Rolls as '..Adam de Bendeng'
et Aliciam uxorem ejus ..."[CRR v.IX, p.85][15]
'Alice wife of Adam [de Bending] involved in dispute regarding land
of Stephen of Turn' in Hertindon, Surrey', 1214[14]
made a gift to Geoffrey de Braiboeuf of her intended share of land in
Ertenden [Hertindon], 1232[14]
Spouse: Adam de Bending[13]
Death: bef 1232[14]
1.1.2.3a Beatrice de Turnham*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1246[10]
coheir of Stephen de Turnham[10]
living 1220, identified in Curia Regis Rolls as '...Radulfum de Fay
et Beariciam uxorem ejus ..."[CRR v.IX, p.85][15]
she m. 1stly Raoul (Ralph) de Faye,
2ndly (as 2nd wife) Hugh de Neville
Spouse: Ralph de Fay
Death: 1223[10]
Father: Ralph de Fay (-<1210)
Children: Maud (-1249)
John (-<1241)
Philippa
Other Spouses Hugh de Neville
1.1.2.3a.1 Maud de Fay
----------------------------------------
Death: 1249[17]
elder sister and heiress of John de Fay[10]
inherited the manor of Bramley, Surrey as part of her purparty
Spouse: Roger de Clere
Death: 1248[10]
Father: Ralph II de Clere (->1232)
Children: Agatha (-<1250)
1.1.2.3a.1.1 Agatha de Clere
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1250[10]
heiress of her father[5]
her portion included a moiety of the manor of Bramley, Surrey [Inq.p.m. on
Richard Longespee, 1261 as cited by Paul MacKenzie[18]]
Spouse: William le Rus
Death: 1253[10],[19]
Father: Hugh le Rus (-1230)
Mother: Alice de Huntingfield
Children: Alice (ca1245-<1300)
1.1.2.3a.1.1.1a Alice le Rus*[20]
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 25 Dec 1245[5]
Death: bef 28 Jan 1300[5],[21]
heiress of her father;
widow of Richard Longespee (d. before 27 Dec 1261, date of his Inq.p.m.)[5]
her wardship and custody of her lands, incl. manor of Sinnington, co. Yorks.
granted to William le Rus, 1250[10]
her inheritance included a moiety of the manor of Bramley, Surrey held in
chief of the King by service of one and 1/2 knight's fee[18]
inheritance included manor of Rouse Hall, Suffolk [evidently became
maritagium of her daughter Mary, wife of John de Weyland][21]
called 'lady Alice de Brewose' in Inq.p.m. for her husband, 1297[22]
Spouse: Sir Richard de Braose
Death: bef 18 Jun 1292[5]
Father: John de Braose (~1197-<1232)
Mother: Margaret verch Llywelyn
Marr: bef 9 Sep 1265[5]
Children: Mary (->1312), m. Sir John de Weyland
Sir Giles (<1273-<1310)
Richard (->1318)
Margaret (-<1335)
Other Spouses Richard Longespee
1.1.2.3a.1.1.1b Alice le Rus* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Richard Longespee
Death: bef 27 Dec 1261, d.s.p.[18]
Father: Sir William Longespee (<1205-1249)
Mother: Idoine de Camville (-<1252)
Other Spouses Sir Richard de Braose
1.1.2.3a.2 John de Fay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 13 Sep 1241, d.s.p.[10],[23]
of Bramley, Surrey[10]
1.1.2.3a.3 Philippa de Fay
----------------------------------------
the manor of Frobury, co. Hants. part of her purparty[13]
Spouse: William de Nevill
Children: Beatrice
1.1.2.3a.3.1 Beatrice de Nevill
----------------------------------------
had the manor of Frobury, co. Hants. as her maritagium[13]
Spouse: William de Wintershull
Death: 1287[13]
Marr: 1249[13]
1.1.2.3b Beatrice de Turnham* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Hugh de Neville
Death: bef 28 Jul 1234
Father: Ralph de Neville
Mother: NN Rafin
Other Spouses Ralph de Fay
1.1.2.4 Alianor de Turnham
----------------------------------------
coheir (in her issue) of Stephen de Turnham
her son identified in Curia Regis Rolls as '.. Rogerum de Leyburn' ..."[CRR
v.IX, p.85][15]
Goff and others erroneously show Alianor as wife of Roger de Leyburn[13] (see
R. Bevan[15])
Spouse: NN de Leyburn
Children: Roger
1.1.2.4.1 Roger de Leyburn
----------------------------------------
coheir of Stephen de Turnham
living 1220, identified in Curia Regis Rolls as '.. Rogerum de Leyburn'
..."[CRR v.IX, p.85][15]
1.1.2.5a Clemence de Turnham*
----------------------------------------
coheiress (in her issue), 1220
she had Peper Harow, Surrey as her maritagium (R. Bevan, citing VCH Surrey
3:48)[15]
she m. 1stly Alan de Plugenet,
2ndly Wandrith de Corcell (or Wandril de Curcels),
3rdly Henry (de) Braybrok[24]
her heiress was her daughter Eleanor, wife of Ralph fitz Bernard[15]
Spouse: Alan de Plugenet
Death: bef 1200, d.v.p.[5]
Father: Hugh de Plugenet (-<1200)
Mother: Sibyl de Dinan (-1213)
Other Spouses Wandril de Curcels
1.1.2.5b Clemence de Turnham* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Wandril de Curcels
Children: Eleanor
Other Spouses Alan de Plugenet
1.1.2.5b.1 Eleanor de Curcels
----------------------------------------
heiress of her mother (eventual coheiress of Edeline de Broc)
living 1259
identified in Curia Regis Roll suit, cited by Rosie Bevan (and Chris
Phillips):
'> Further confirmation on the identity of Eleanor, wife of Ralph FitzBernard
> comes from VCH Surrey v.3 p.48 under the section on the manor of Peper
> Harow.
the text, taken from VCH re: Braybrok's suit against Ralph and Eleanor:
> Stephen's daughter Clemency received Peper Harow as her
> portion on her marriage with her first husband Alan de Plugenhay; she
> afterwards married Wandrith de Corcell, and her third husband, Henry
> Braybrok, who evidently survived her, sued Ralph son of Bernard and his wife
> Eleanor, daughter of Clemency by Wandrith de Corcell, [Curia regis Roll no.
> 162 (Hil. 43 Hen III), m. 21] for Peper Harow as having been settled on him
> at his marriage with Clemency."[24]
Spouse: Ralph fitz Bernard
1.1.3 John de Turnham
----------------------------------------
cf. Sutliff, cites Red Book of the Exchequer[2]
1.1.4 Gilbert de Turnham
----------------------------------------
cf. Sutliff, cites Red Book of the Exchequer[2]
1.2 Michael de Turnham
----------------------------------------
of Rokeland and Blechenden, Kent
' Michaele de Turneham', held the land of Rokeland (given to Bayham
abbey) of his brother Robert, by the service of 1/6 of a knight's fee
[Mon. Angl. VI(2):913, Num. XII]
‘ Michaele de Turneham’, witness (together with Adam de Poynings and
others) to charter of Radulf de Dene granting lands of his lordship
of Otham, Sussex to Otham priory (predecessor to Begeham, or Bayham
abbey), ca. 1180 [Mon. Angl. VI(2):911, Num. I] [1]
‘ Michaele de Thurne’, witness (together with William de Warenne and
others) to charter of Radulf de Dene granting lands in Otham, Sefford
and others to Otham priory, ca. 1180 [Mon. Angl. VI(2):911, Num. II]
' Michaelis filii Johannis de Tonge', charter of King John confirming
his grants to Bayham abbey, 6 April 1210 [Mon. Angl. VI(2):914,
Num. XVIII, cites Pat. 6 Edw. III. p. 2, m. 30, per Inspex.] [1]
1. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding &
Lepard; and Longman Rees... Green, 1830 URL:
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659.
2. Henry Sutliff, "Turnham," 19 February 2003, email
ss...@earthlink.net, cites Red Book of the Exchequer.
3. Richard Borthwick, "Stephen and Robert de Turnham," May 20, 1998,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
4. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
6. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols)"
Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
7. "Richard I," John Gillingham, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1999, 129, 152 (de Camville), Yale English Monarchs series.
8. W. L. Warren, "King John," New Haven: Yale University Press, 1997
(orig. published 1981 in UK, Eyre Methuen Ltd), Yale English
Monarchs series.
9. K. J. Allison, ed., "A History of the County of York, East
Riding," Oxford: published for the Institute of Historical
Research, Oxford Univ. Press, 1969, Vol. III.
10. Richard Borthwick, "Clere/Fay/Rus/Turnham," Feb 8, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
11. Rosie Bevan, "Clemence de Broc," Nov 22, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
12. Sir Steven Runciman, "A History of the Crusades (3 vols),"
Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1954.
13. Peter Langdon Goff, "Kingsclere: Its Heritage and Genealogy,"
www.kingsclere.org.uk/manors-1908.html, extracted May 26, 2002,
citing Victoria County History, Vol. 4 (Hampshire), citing
Excerpta e. Rot. Fin., i, 25 as to the issue of Edelina de Broc
and Stephen de Turnham.
14. J. Bending, "Medieval Bendings - Sundry Sources,"
http://www.jbending.demon.co.uk/
15. Rosie Bevan, "Turnham," Feb 20, 2003,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Curia Regis Rolls v.IX, p.85
and Clay, Early Yorkshire Charters v.2 no.995.
16. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
17. Richard Borthwick, "Raoul/Ralph de Fay and Braose ????," Feb 6,
1999, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
18. Paul MacKenzie, "Pateshull, Grandison, Tregoz etc.," Feb 5, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
19. Douglas Richardson, "Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and
Medieval Families," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company,
2005.
20. Douglas Richardson,
"New MC Line: Clare-Breuse-Weyland-Burghersh-Despenser," Dec 25,
2000, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, per D. Richardson, a new
discovery to be featured in the book, Magna Carta Ancestry.
21. W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., "The Manors of Suffolk:
Notes on Their History and Devolution," London: T. F. Unwin,
1905-1911, 7 Vols.
22. Adrian Channing, "Raoul de Faye > Ralph de Fay ?," Nov 27, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
23. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The
Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I
(1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in
Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
24. Chris Phillips, "Turnham," Feb 20, 2003, SGM
* John P. Ravilious
WJho...@aol.com
<< Spouse: Sir Richard de Braose
Death: bef 18 Jun 1292[5]
Father: John de Braose (~1197-<1232)
Mother: Margaret verch Llywelyn
Marr: bef 9 Sep 1265[5]
Children: Mary (->1312), m. Sir John de Weyland
Sir Giles (<1273-<1310)
Richard (->1318)
Margaret (-<1335) >>
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Count d'Angerville; World Nobility,
London. 1962
Vol 2, "Gatterdam", pg 378-381
adds that
Margaret (dau of the Richard de Braose above) married Roger de /Colville/ of
Bytham, Lincoln
and had issue
Alice Colville who married John /Gernon/ , Knt., Lord Lexton (d 1384)
Will Johnson
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Wednesday, 5 October, 2005
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> A small addition can be made to the ancestry of Robert de Turnham
> and his brother Stephen de Turnham. Among the charters of grants to
> Bayham priory are those of Robert and Stephen, their father Robert,
> and uncle Michael de Turnham [1]. One charter in particular, that of
> Robert de Turnham, in part confirms the grants of his uncle Michael
> de Turnham in Blechenden and other nearby lands in Kent [2]. Of
> particular note, the confirmation of same by King John on 6 April
> 1210 confirms among others the grants 'of the gift of Michael son of
> John de Tong, 10 acres of land with appurtenances in Tong...' ["De
> dono Michaelis filii Johannis de Tonge x. acras terrae, cum
> pertinentiis, in Tonge..."] [3].
>
> The following pedigree traces the descent of several families
> from the aforesaid John de Tong, including the de Braose children of
> Alice le Rus. Should anyone of the list have access to other sources
> (KSB K-R's Domesday Descendants, perhaps) that might provide a link
> to this John de Tong, this ancestry might yet be extended further.
Thanks for a marvellous extension to the sum of human knowledge!
K-R in DD shows both Robert (d.1274) and Michael de Turnham as brothers
but gives nothing (that I can find) of their father John de Tong. (I
wonder if Tong and Turnham are much the same word when spoken?)
DD p. 750 gives the order of Robert's sons as Stephen, Robert (d.
1211), Gilbert and John.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for your replies, and the lookups in DD.
However these lands came into the de Turnham family, in fact Tong
and Turnham are two different places/locations. Tong is found in
Headcorn parish, Kent (as is Bletchenden), approx. 11 km south of
Thurnham, Kent.
Cheers,
John
Gordon and Jane Kirkemo
John, thanks for posting this Turnham information-I found it very helpful. I'm hoping you, or Doug, can answer one question it raises for me. Below, you note that Mabel de Turnham was the wife of Thomas de Bavelingham. I'm wondering if this is the same Thomas de Bavelingham identified by Doug in MCA on page 507. This Thomas is named as the father of Isabel, the wife of Robert de Mankesey. The chronology seems to work, but Doug does not name the wife of Thomas.
I note that a number of Internet sites suggest that Mabel de Turnham married a Hamo de Gatton, and identify the wife of Robert as Isabel de Gatton. No documentation is available to support this, and you do not offer any other marriages for Mabel. I also checked the website you identified as a source, but found nothing further on the family of Thomas and Mabel. Do either of you have anything further that might link Isabel to this family?
Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
Wednesday, 5 October, 2005
Hello All,
Cheers,
John *
<snip>
Children: Robert (-1174)
Michael
of Thurnham, Kent
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
* John P. Ravilious