Yiddish pronunciation
Nachum
from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
(in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
choosing a couple of words from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.
mishigina (I would say mishugana)
zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes, I would pronounce say as
zag)
A Chatima Tova to all JewishGenners and all Beit Yisrael, and TIA.
Nachum Tuchman
Tekoa, Israel
mailto:nac...@avichai.org.il
---
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Martin Green
between Polish and Litvish, or Lithuanian Yiddish.
Similarly, gekimmen/gekummen. Zug/zog is an
example of the same thing...similarly, vus/vos
and dus/dos.
Another indicator, which you don't mention here,
is ey/ay. For example, Polish would be "kayn",
rhymes with "mine", and Litvish would be "keyn",
rhymes with "pain".
You might also note that as far as Yiddish pronunciation
is concerned, "Lithuania" extends quite a long way, including
all of White Russia.
Martin Green
> My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
> from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
> Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
> Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
> (in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
> choosing a couple of words from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.
>
> mishigina (I would say mishugana)
> zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes, I would pronounce say as
> zag)
mailto:
Dr. Joseph M. Schwarcz, Dr. Ida C. Selavan
i.e. Ukrainian and Romanian, which are basically the same. The
technical name for this pronunciation is "Mome Tote Lushn" while
the Northern, (Litvish) pronunciation is called "Tate Mame
Loshn."
Ida Selavan Schwarcz
Arad, Israel
Nachum wrote:
>
> My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
> from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
> Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
> Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
> (in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
> choosing a couple of words from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.
>
> mishigina (I would say mishugana)
> zag)
>
>
> Nachum Tuchman
> Tekoa, Israel
> mailto:nac...@avichai.org.il
Anne Bernhaut
The couple of Yiddish words you mention, "mishigina" and "zug yur" (should
be "yo") are pronunciations from Polish Galicia, (former Austrian province
till World War I). My parents are from Chrzanow and Brzesko (first town is
about 40km East of Krakow, and second town is about 80km west of Krakow)
and they pronounced the words as you indicate. I would actually say the
words are more: "meshigeneh" and "zug yoh".
Let me know what you think. I speak Yiddish so I could help you with some
of your questions.
Shana Tova
Anne Bernhaut
Melbourne, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: Nachum <nac...@avichai.org.il>
To: JewishGen Discussion Group <jewi...@lyris.jewishgen.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 1:56 PM
Subject: Yiddish pronunciation
> My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he remembers
> from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
> Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
> Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
> (in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
> choosing a couple of words from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.
>
> mishigina (I would say mishugana)
> zug yur (my uncle-in-law says this means say yes,I would pronounce say as
> zag)
>
> A Chatima Tova to all JewishGenners and all Beit Yisrael, and TIA.
>
> Nachum Tuchman
> Tekoa, Israel
mailto:annebe...@bigpond.com
Martin Green
> With only two examples the response must be, Southern Yiddish,
> i.e. Ukrainian and Romanian, which are basically the same. The
> technical name for this pronunciation is "Mome Tote Lushn" while
> the Northern, (Litvish) pronunciation is called "Tate Mame
> Loshn."
Yes, the two examples given would be consistent with Romanian.
However, you can't rule out Polish, which is quite similar. The
most obvious way to distinguish between Polish and Romanian
(South Russian) is the vowel shift on words like "shabbes",
which becomes "shobbes" in Romanian Yiddish.
Martin Green
http://www.onforeignsoil.com
mailto:
mpfreed...@my-deja.com
"Nachum" <nac...@avichai.org.il> wrote:
> My wifes uncle sent me a list of Yiddish expressions that he
remembers
> from his childhood in Londons East End. I am not an expert on
> Yiddish dialect, nor do I speak more than a few words of Yiddish.
> Would it be possible to pinpoint an area of ones origins
> (in this case before London) based on pronunciation? I am
> choosing a couple of words from the list my uncle-in-law sent me.
>
> mishigina (I would say mishugana)
say as
> zag)
I would think they are of Polak (including Galitziane)provenance.
However there was also a marked Dutch influence on much of the Yiddish
spoken in the East End.
I am of Litvak origins and the words in question I know as "meshugane"
and "zog yoh". The differences between the various Yiddish dialects
(there were four main ones)centred mainly on the vowels. Incidentally,
I believe the Litvak pronunciation is the preferred pronunciation of
Yiddish in academia.
Murray Freedman
Judith Romney Wegner
> The
>most obvious way to distinguish between Polish and Romanian
>(South Russian) is the vowel shift on words like "shabbes",
>which becomes "shobbes" in Romanian Yiddish.
>
>Martin Green
That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty boy"
-- usually called a "mazzik" by American Jews). In fact, we had a naughty
little song when I was a kid, which (sung to a well known Latino melody, I
think) went like this:
He is a lobbes -- he is a lobbes --
He takes the shikses /to the pictures/ on the shobbes!
Not very p.c., admittedly -- but then none of us were, in those days!
Judith Romney Wegner
mailto:j...@Brown.edu
Mike Glazer
news:v03010d0db5fc56ca2813@[128.148.44.87]...
> > That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
> pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty
boy"
>
You might be interested to know that the word lobus (first letter pronounced
rather like a "w") is Polish for an urchin. I guess this is where the
Yiddish word comes from.
Mike Glazer
Oxford
mailto:
mpfreed...@my-deja.com
Judith Romney Wegner < j...@Brown.edu > wrote:
> That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
> pronunciation!
Correction: It was *an* but not *the* Anglo-Jewish pronunciation. It was
always "shabbes" in the North and Scotland where Litvak immigrants
predominated.
It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty boy"
> -- usually called a "mazzik" by American Jews). In fact, we had a
naughty
> little song when I was a kid, which (sung to a well known Latino
melody, I
> think) went like this:
>
> He is a lobbes -- he is a lobbes --
> He takes the shikses /to the pictures/ on the shobbes!
The rhyme that I remember went as follows:-
The boy stood on the burning deck
His father called him lobbes
Because he wouldn't wash his dirty neck
To go to shul on shabbes !
Murray Freedman
Jerzy Hubert
beginning (sounding like a W sound in English "one"), and with the letter "Z"
at the end. I presume, sometimes "l/obuz" was similar in meaning to "batiar",
which was very popular in Lwo'w (Lviv, Lemberg).
However, I do not know if "batiar" had any Yiddish equivalent.
J.Z.Hubert
Jax.,Fl
Mike Glazer wrote:
>
> "Judith Romney Wegner" <j...@Brown.edu> wrote in message
> news:v03010d0db5fc56ca2813@[128.148.44.87]...
> > > That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
> > pronunciation! It rhymes with "lobbes" -- Anglo-Yiddish for "naughty
> boy"
> >
>
> You might be interested to know that the word lobus (first letter pronounced
> rather like a "w") is Polish for an urchin. I guess this is where the
> Yiddish word comes from.
>
> Mike Glazer
> Oxford
> mailto:
Judith Romney Wegner
>> That's interesting; "shobbes" also happens to be the Anglo-Jewish
>> pronunciation!
Murray replied:
>Correction: It was *an* but not *the* Anglo-Jewish pronunciation. It was
>always "shabbes" in the North and Scotland where Litvak immigrants
>predominated.
>The rhyme that I remember went as follows:-
>The boy stood on the burning deck
>His father called him lobbes
>Because he wouldn't wash his dirty neck
>To go to shul on shabbes !
Aha! But the northern pronunciation ruins the rhyme -- unless Litvaks also
pronounced
"lobbes" as "labbes", of course! I suspect the rhyme must have originated
in London!
Thanks for reminding me of the burning deck ditty.
And thanks also for the gently chiding reminder that "If you 'avn't been
to Manchester you 'avn't lived!" We Londoners always were
provincially-challenged!
Judith Romney Wegner
MODERATOR NOTE: Question has been answered. Thread is closed.
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