Hebrew Name Ziesse/ Zishe
Ury Link
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Dear Genners,
Bob Weiss in his answer about the names Ziese or Zishe wrote:
>>All of the above may be true, but the name Zisse etc is spelled in Yiddish
with a "samach" and not a "shin" or "sin". The names Zuse/Zise/Zishe/Zisl
etc are all spelled with a samach, as well as the Yiddish word "zis"
meaning sweet from which the names may derive. There is no word in any of
my Hebrew or Yiddish dictionaries that have the sequence "zayin-yud-shin".
So we are forced to look elsewhere for an answer.>>>>
I have at list 4 books at my home that give the spelling in Yiddish of the
name Ziese with the Hebrew letters Zayin - Yud - Shin - Alef, and Zayin -
Yud - Vav - Alef. Also this books give you spelling as Zayin - Yud - Samech
- Ayin. One book is " Ketuba Ke-Hilchata" by Rabbi Shemuel Eliezer Stern,
Benei Brak 1996 page 365. The second book is "Get Mesudar" by Eliezer
Mintz,Bilguria 1902 on page 267. the third book is the "Beit Shemuel" in his
commentary to the Schulchan Aruch and also in the book of Salfeld
,Nurnberger Memorbuches,Berlin 1898 on page 415. The last one give also the
name Susman with the Hebrew-Yiddish letters as Zayin - Vav - Shin - Nun. The
name Suskind he give as: Zayin - Vav - Shin- Kuf - Yud - nun - Tet. So it
can be that we have the sequence "Zayin - Yud - Shin" in names. The problem
is that we don't know what is the gender of this Name on the tombstone. I am
agree in what Michael Bernet wrote:
>>>Zisse or more likely Zishe, derived from the Yiddish for "sweet." The name
(and variants such as Suessel, Suesslein, Suessman) was a kinnuy for a
number of Hebrew names; Kaganoff lists Eliezer, Yoel, Meshulam and Azriel;
in my family I believe it stood for Shim`on. It was widely accepted as the
equivalent of a Hebrew name, and Reb Zisyeh was one of the prominent
Hassidic masters, always referred to by this name.>>>
And the "Beit Shemuel" give more names to Zisse or Zushe : Elazar,
Alexander,Yehoshua,Yekutiel,Yerachmiel,Israel,Azaria,Sheneior, The reasons
for giving this kinui are simple, most of this names are names with a Samech
a Shin or a Zayin in one of the part of a kinui.
Meshulam = Shulem. Azriel = Zril. Eliezer = LeiSer. Alexander = Sander.
Yehosua = Sheye. Yekutiel = KuSiel.Israel = Srul. Azaria = Sriye. Only for
Yerachmiel I don't have a explanation why we cold him also Zishe or Zoshe.
But as we know it can be also a women name that go beck to Frankfurt Am
Main in Germany in 1241. Salfeld give two explanation for this name, the
first is that it get out from the German word "Suss" what mean sweet, the
second explanation is that it is a diminutive to the Hebrew name Shoshana
.My source :Salfeld,Nurnberger Memorbuches,Berlin 1898.
Best regards
Ury Link
Amsterdam
Holland
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je...@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
<< There has been much discussion about the name Ziesse/Zishe which was
originally mentioned in a posting by Victor Singer: >>
and states . . .
<< First, the name was a common nickname for the formal Hebrew/Yiddish
names Ziskind/Zuskind/Zyuskind, Zusman, Zuslin, >>
I think the reverse is true. Suess, meaning "sweet," is the original
"German" name that's been used by Jews as a given name for 800 years or
longer. It was associated as a kinnuy with many truly Hebrew names, so many
that it's impossible to link it to any one name with certainty
Zuesel, Sissel, Suesslein etc are diminutive forms; Susskind etc mean
"sweet child."
The Sussman/Zissman forms are later development, when the leters "man" or
"mann" (as also "berg" and "stein") were tagged on to the end of given
Hebrew and Jewish names (e.g. Ber-man) to make them sound more "German" and
thus be acceptable to the civil authorities.
Michael Bernet, New York
WOLFF (Pfungstadt, Frankfurt/M, Koenigsberg, Amsterdam, N.Carolina); BERNET,
BERNERT, JONDORF(Frensdorf, Bamberg, Nurnberg); FEUCHTWANGER
(Schwabach, Hagenbach & Fuerth); KONIGSHOFER (anywhere); BERG, WOLF(F),
(Demmelsdorf & Zeckendorf); Shim`on GUTENSTEIN (Bad Homburg ca 1760);
FRENSDORF/ER (anywhere); MAINZER (Lorsch); anyone in Ermreuth or Floss;
GOLDSCHMIDT (B. Homburg, Hessdorf). ALTMANN (Silesia); TIMMENDORFER
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Prof. G. L. Esterson
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>==I think the reverse is true. Suess, meaning "sweet," is the original
>"German" name that's been used by Jews as a given name for 800 years or
>longer. It was associated as a kinnuy with many truly Hebrew names, so
>many that it's impossible to link it to any one name with certainty
>
>Zuesel, Sissel, Suesslein etc are diminutive forms; Susskind etc mean
>"sweet child."
>
>The Sussman/Zissman forms are later development, when the leters "man" or
>"mann" (as also "berg" and "stein") were tagged on to the end of given
>Hebrew and Jewish names (e.g. Ber-man) to make them sound more "German"
>and thus be acceptable to the civil authorities
The approaches which Michael Bernet and I take are somewhat different.
As he writes above, Michael is concerned with the historical development of
given names from one or more original source names. On the other hand, my
interest in given names has to do with the legal Jewish Hebrew names which
the rabbis of the 19th and earlier centuries defined for writing in Jewish
legal documents (ketuva, get, business contract, etc.) and for calling a
Jewish man to the Tora for an aliya. It is these names which I used to
give structure to the Given Names Data Bases which are being set up for
European countries like Lithuania, Poland, and Germany.
Thus, when I stated in my original posting that "the Yiddish name
Zisa/Zisha (or one of its many linked variations) was used to form legal
Hebrew double/triple names with the following classical Hebrew
names: Aleksander Ziskind, Azarya, Azrieyl, Eliezer, Imanueyl, ....", I
was merely stating the way the rabbis of the later centuries (particularly
the 19th century -- my period of interest) ruled that scribes needed to
write multiple Legal Hebrew names such as Aleksander Ziskind Zisl, Azarya
Zusa, Azrieyl Zusman, Eliezer Zusa, Imanueyl Zusman, etc. This approach is
not concerned with the historical development of the various linked names,
but with how they were used in the 19th century in a Jewish legal
manner. Of course, the multiple names used tended to be different from
country to country, particularly between western countries like Germany and
eastern countries like Lithuania.
Names like Ziskind, Zuskind, Zusman, Zuslin, Zusa, etc. were indeed defined
by the rabbis as kinuim which needed to be written as above. However,
these various names beginning with the letter "z" were not always combined
with the same original Hebrew names in order to form multiple legal Hebrew
names, as the above short sample listing shows. And furthermore, there
were cases where some of these names were used alone without linking to any
specific classic Hebrew name like Azarya.
As Michael states, it is also true that Yiddish names like Zise and Zishe
were linked to a large number of classic Hebrew names. This was also true
of a number of other Yiddish names as well -- those Yiddish names that were
popular were associated with many Hebrew names and therefor required
rulings by the rabbis as to when and how to write them.
Most of what I write above (and in the previous posting) applies
particularly to Lithuania, where there was indeed the use of both Zusa and
Zusha.
Professor G. L. Esterson, Ra'anana, Israel
<je...@vms.huji.ac.il>
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