Maria, Magda, Magdalena in Jewish usage
MBe...@aol.com
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In a message dated 1/21/2003 10:15:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rwf...@iinet.net.au writes:
<< Maria is a typically Catholic name (although related to Miriam which is an
equally typical Jewish name), but I don't think one can infer from the
name "Maria" that the lady in question might not have been Jewish. A great-
grandmother of mine had the given name of Magdalene - but she certainly
was Jewish. What's in a name? >>
==No, indeed, I would not ordinarily make such an assumption. In this case,
however, the woman who was the subject of the inquiry had requested that her
nationality be changed on an official document, from "Hebrew" to
"German-Ungarn." This, together with the name, may suggest that perhaps she
did not wish to be considered Jewish. That possibility may have a value to a
genealogist and is worth pursuing--which is the only reason why I mentioned
it.
The name Maria, a Hellenized form of the Hebrew name Miriam, was one that was
generally avoided among Ashkenazi Jews, who associated it with religious and
social persecutors. Even among assimilated Jews, its was rarely used in the
19th and early 20th centuries. In Sefardic Jewish cultures, however, the name
was not considered taboo.
Magda, Magdalena and Madeleine all come from the Aramaic Magdala, a small
town on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee; the Hebrew name is Migdal
Kinneret, the Arabic name is Majdal. The woman referred to in the New
Testament was Maria Magdala or Maria Magdalena, Mary of Migdal. Ashkenazi
Jews were generally knew next to nothing of the New Testament except the
names Jesus and Maria. The various names derived from the town Migdal
Kinneret meant nothing to them and, indeed, Magda, Magdalena and Madelein
etc. were in fairly common use among 19th and 20th century Ashkenazim.
Most of the personalities in the Gospels had names that were Hebrew or
Aramaic, because they were Jewish natives of Eretz Yisrael, where Hebrew or
Aramaic names were generally the rule among Jews.
Just as an aside, in the USA I have occasionally been asked how come I, a
Jew, have such an Irish name as Michael.
Michael Bernet New York
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CharlesPottins
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Oddly, though, it remained common in the French form as Marie e.g. Marie
Syrkin.
And the other day, I was remarking that Mary was unusual, only to have my
friends immediately mention several Marys in their families.
Actress Maria Friedmann was in Sobol's play "Ghetto" here, I'm not sure whether
she is Jewish, though.
I've only known two Magda/Magdalena's though, one (Magda) ws Polish Catholic,
the other (Magdalena, but more often called "Mala") was Icelandic.
BTW, is the original name Magdalene anything to do with 'Migdal' in place
names? Mary Magdalene would presumably be then "Mary from Migdal (Ashkelon
perhaps - or Majdal in Arabic).
Charlie Pottins
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Roger Lustig
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A few comments, included in-line:
MBe...@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 1/21/2003 10:15:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>rwf...@iinet.net.au writes:
>
><< Maria is a typically Catholic name (although related to Miriam which is an
> equally typical Jewish name), but I don't think one can infer from the
> name "Maria" that the lady in question might not have been Jewish. A great-
> grandmother of mine had the given name of Magdalene - but she certainly
> was Jewish. What's in a name? >>
>
>==No, indeed, I would not ordinarily make such an assumption. In this case,
>however, the woman who was the subject of the inquiry had requested that her
>nationality be changed on an official document, from "Hebrew" to
>"German-Ungarn." This, together with the name, may suggest that perhaps she
>did not wish to be considered Jewish. That possibility may have a value to a
>genealogist and is worth pursuing--which is the only reason why I mentioned
>it.
>
I'd also be curious about *whom* she wished to have consider her as
German-Hungarian. That is, who was going to see this document? Alas,
motivations like that are hard to identify so long after the fact.
>The name Maria, a Hellenized form of the Hebrew name Miriam, was one that was
>generally avoided among Ashkenazi Jews, who associated it with religious and
>social persecutors. Even among assimilated Jews, its was rarely used in the
>19th and early 20th centuries. In Sefardic Jewish cultures, however, the name
>was not considered taboo.
>
Now it's my turn to warn against generalization. I went over some
databases I have of births to Jews in Upper Silesia--definitely
Ashkenazim, if not Eastern-European--and found that about 1% of girls
were named Marie or Maria. Marianne was somewhat more popular--probably
closer to 2%.
In the Old Cemetery in Gleiwitz (most burials between 1815 and 1903;
after that, only in reserved plots), there are 762 women: 16 Maries, all
with Hebrew name Miriam. Also 2 Miriams, and 15 Mariannes. The nice
thing about cemetery information is that we know the people buried there
were Jewish, i.e., hadn't converted (and perhaps taken another name then).
You may think that a name given to 1% of all girls is rare. I'd call it
"less common". A few names were *very* popular--in the cemetery list,
10% of the women were named Rosa/Rose/Rosalie--76 out of 762. Then
there were 50 Johannas, 48 Friederikes, 32 Helene/Lene, 30 Ernestines,
25 Henriettes, 25 Berthas, 24 Paula/Paulines, 22 Jettes, 22
Dorothea/Dorels. We're already up to half of the total!
>Just as an aside, in the USA I have occasionally been asked how come I, a
>Jew, have such an Irish name as Michael.
>
Oh, *dear*.
On the other hand, while perusing these lists, I came across a Jewish
girl named Christine. Yes, that's the birth record, in the magistrates'
records of Jewish births. Born 1841. Same name on the death record.
She died at age 2. Childrens' graves weren't entered into the register
separately, so I don't know what her Hebrew name might have been.
Worst of all: her name was Christine LUSTIG. Nobody ever accused us of
being particularly bright...
Roger Lustig
Princeton, NJ
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MBe...@aol.com
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In a message dated 1/22/2003 4:31:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tro...@bellatlantic.net writes:
<< it's my turn to warn against generalization. I went over some databases
I have of births to Jews in Upper Silesia--definitely Ashkenazim, if not
Eastern-European--and found that about 1% of girls were named Marie or Maria.
Marianne was somewhat more popular--probably closer to 2%.
==That's certainly a significant number. Yes, I know, Marianne was quite
popular among Jews, an "appropriate" equivalent to go with the Hebrew name
Miriam. A Perusal of Beider's "Given Names" suggests that Maria was often
just a variant of more "Jewish" forms of Miriam, such as Merle
You may think that a name given to 1% of all girls is rare. I'd call it
"less common". >>
==absolutely! Thanks! There's nothing like checking out reliable data.
Here's one "well known fact" that can finally be laid to rest.
==But I'll bet you that none of the men named Jesus Israel in the New York
phone book is Jewish.
Michael Bernet,
New York
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MBe...@aol.com
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In a message dated 1/22/2003 4:31:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tro...@bellatlantic.net writes:
<< I came across a Jewish girl named Christine. Yes, that's the birth
record, in the magistrates' records of Jewish births. Born 1841. Same name
on the death record. She died at age 2. Childrens' graves weren't entered
into the register separately, so I don't know what her Hebrew name might have
been.
==Her "Jewish" name may have been Kresle or Kresne, both relatively not
uncommon
==I know of a Jewish community leader in today's Germany who goes by the name
Chriss and is considered by the local authorities to be *the* expert on
everything Jewish. I wonder whether Jews readily made the connection between
Christina and Christianity.
Jane Vogel-Kohai & Ofer Kohai
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And I have met several Jewish women named Madonna! (they are from Georgia -
the former Soviet Republic, not the US state).
So - ditto on the "assume nothing".
Jane Vogel-Kohai
Jerusalem, Israel
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sallybru
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"On the other hand, while perusing these lists, I came across a Jewish
girl named Christine. Yes, that's the birth record, in the magistrates'
records of Jewish births. Born 1841. Same name on the death record.
She died at age 2."
All this talk about the name Maria not being used for Jewish women
reinforces what I have often said. You cannot say anything is not used by
Jews, because somewhere, someone used it. I used to say, "Anything but
Christian," but since seeing Christine, I'm afraid that isn't even
impossible.
In the Russian/Polish records I have translated for various reasons, I
found occasional Marya's. They existed.
It may not be common. It may offend some people. But the facts are the
facts. You can't deny that a record for a Jewish woman that says Marya,
says Marya. You might be right to think that some of her family called her
Miriam, but she was also called Marya.
My gr grandmother, Merle, was Mary or Marian in English. Of course, in the
US we assume that non-'Jewish' names signify reform, but it also was used
in Europe.
Sally Marian Bruckheimer
Harrison, NY
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