Yisra'el, Sruel, Cyril!
Judith Romney Wegner
>> I have assumed that a number of my relatives with the English/Canadian name
>> of CYRIL had a Hebrew name of YISRAEL. I cannot prove it yet. I would seem
>> that since they are all cousins, that they were all named for the same
>> relative, possibly a sibling of their parents. Am I correct to assume that
To which someone answered:
>Doesn't looks like. Cyril derives from the Greek word 'Kyrillos', a
>derivative of 'kyrios' which means "Lord". Seems remote that Israel and
>Elohim should be related ;)
>
I cannot agree. The above answer misses the point in three distinct ways!
First, when giving a secular name to a Jewish child, it is not common
practice to try to "match" the MEANING of the original Hebrew name. In
general, secular names given to Jews in the 19th-20th centuries) were
selected to match the SOUND (not the meaning) of the Hebrew name.
Obviously "Cyril" contains almost all the sound elements of "Yisra'el" --
moreover, it sounds even closer to the Yiddish diminutive for Yisra'el --
namely, " Sruel." So, I would agree with the original suggestion that
the questioner's "Cyril" relatives are very likely all named for the same
ancestor, whose name was Yisra'el.
Second, while it is true that the title Kyrios is Greek for Lord (= Latin
dominus) and has the basic meaning of master or overlord) Kyrios has
absolutely nothing to do with Elohim (which means God). The Hebrew
biblical word that gets translated as kyrios/dominus in Greek/Latin
translations of the Hebrew Bible is NOT Elohim ("God") at all; it is
Y-H-W-H, the personal name of the Israelite God, which is normally not
pronounced, since we usually substitute the term Adonai (from the Hebrew
word Adon, which DOES in fact mean exactly the same as the Greek Kyrios,
i.e., "lord and master." It would appear that the New Testament's
persistent use of the title Kyrios to refer to Jesus has apparently
obscured for some people the fact that this title does not mean God at all;
it can be, and frequently is, used equally to apply to either God or a
human being -- and the same, of course, is true of the Hebrew word Adon.
Third, the respondent claimed that to give the name Cyril to a boy named
Yisra'el was equivalent to implying a linguistic connection between Israel
and Elohim/God. Since, as explained above, the name Cyril would have been
selected for its phonic resemblance to Yisra'el and not for its meaning,
the selection would not in fact carry that implication -- and that would
hold true even had the respondent's assumption that Kyrios is used to
translate the word Elohim (it never is!) been correct.
For all of the above reasons, I think the original questioner's assumption
was probably correct.
Judith Romney Wegner
j...@brown.edu
IMPORTANT NOTE: While we make the transition, please send all posts to JewishGen to: mailto: sgje...@trace.cgsg.com
Nick Landau
Cyril!), you write:
> Someone asked:
> >> I have assumed that a number of my relatives with the English/Canadian name
>>> of CYRIL had a Hebrew name of YISRAEL. I cannot prove it yet. I would seem
>>> that since they are all cousins, that they were all named for the same
>>> relative, possibly a sibling of their parents. Am I correct to assume that
>
>To which someone answered:
>>Doesn't looks like. Cyril derives from the Greek word 'Kyrillos', a
>>derivative of 'kyrios' which means "Lord". Seems remote that Israel and
>>Elohim should be related ;)
>>
> I cannot agree. The above answer misses the point in three distinct ways!
>
There seems to be an extraordinary assumption on the part of some posters
about the knowledge of Latin or Greek of our forebears. This would have
been at a time when many of them would have been barely literate.
It is fairly clear that the Biblical names just used the common
transliterations in English, German etc. An uncle of my mother was named
Elias. It was only when I sung in Mendlesohn's Elijah recently in German
that I realised that Elias was the German form for Elijah.
In England and the Celtic fringes there has been a long tradition of giving
people Biblical names. In a radio series that has been going nearly 50
years (yes) there has been a Zebedee and there is a Shula. Ebenezer is a
good old English name (see Scrooge in Dicken's A Christmas Carol).
Methuselah, Jereboam, I believe are sizes of champagne bottle.
My own middle name is Oliver. My grandfather's name was Solomon and he died
a few years before I was born. I was named after him in Hebrew (Shelomo).
Sholom means peace as does the olivebranch in English tradition. So I was
called Oliver!
If I think of the names of my grandfather and his 12 brothers and sisters
who were the first generation born in England. They were born from 1873 to
1901. Their names were as follows:
Annie (Hannah) Edith
Isaac Gidaly
Dora (Deborah)
Sydney
Abraham (Aby) Lionel
Violet Fraidel
David
Michael (Mick)
Birdie (Zipporah)
Helena (Lennie) Penina
Muriel Elsie
Joseph Victor
Ruth (Doogie) Beatrice.
Their children who were born between 1903 and 1938 had the following names:
Frederic Moses.
Rosalind
Marcus Roy
Judith
Marjorie Franziska
Beatrice Judith
Marcus Arthur
Tilly (Mathilde) Chayo
Eva (Rafaela)
Gerald
Miriam (Molly) Olive
Joyce Estelle
Robert (Bob) Elkan
Basil Vivian
Arthur Michael
Daphne
Vivienne Regina
Dennis Marcus
Marcus Lionel
David Sacks
Michael Vivian
Oliver Wolf
Joan Yvette
Derek Yorke
Diana Patricia
Eileen
Jean
Michael
Helen
The 4 Marcus's were named after a grandfather. Chayo, Vivian and Vivienne
were named after a grandmother (Chayo). The Arthur's, Lionel's, Roy's,
Robert's, Dennis's and Gerald's are certainly not Biblical/Hebrew names.
Nick
Nick Landau ni...@n-landau.demon.co.uk
See my homepage http://www.lookup.com/homepages/65089/home.html