Irish tartans?

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Pat Traynor

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Dec 23, 2001, 11:35:01 AM12/23/01
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This item from;
http://www.tartanweb.com/tweb/irish.htm

"The Red Ulster Tartan tartan is believed to date from the
beginning of the 17th
century, or possibly earlier. A piece of material was discovered in a
peat bog in
Dungiven, County Derry in 1956 and the Weathered Ulster Tartan is
based on that
specimen. The original was probably green, but has been stained brown
and tan by
the peat. "

Now how do they know that tartan did not belong to a Scottish gallowglas?

--------
Tartans first worn by the ancient Celts?
Were they the first bleached blondes?

Source unknown on this item;

"Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that: "

"Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with ripling
muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so:
they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it
back from their foreheaads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and
shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are cleanshaven, but others -
especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that
covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve,
trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear
brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and
cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in
summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the seperate
checks close together and in various colours."

"[The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns,
which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover
themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves
with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird,
discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and
harsh voices, they beat their swords rythmically against their shields."

"Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed
them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states: "

"In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they
have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in
cedar oil, keeping them carefully in wooden boxes. "


Patrick Traynor, in California's gold-rush country. tr...@jps.net
TRAYNOR'S Web Page (Irish stuff) http://go.quick.to/traynor

Sean MacLochlainn

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Dec 23, 2001, 12:36:46 PM12/23/01
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"Pat Traynor" <tr...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:2.2.32.20011223...@mail.jps.net...

> This item from;
> http://www.tartanweb.com/tweb/irish.htm
>
> "The Red Ulster Tartan tartan is believed to date from the
> beginning of the 17th
> century, or possibly earlier. A piece of material was discovered in
a
> peat bog in
> Dungiven, County Derry in 1956 and the Weathered Ulster Tartan is
> based on that
> specimen. The original was probably green, but has been stained
brown
> and tan by
> the peat. "
>
> Now how do they know that tartan did not belong to a Scottish gallowglas?

Or a Scot who came over in the plantation of Ulster, or an Irishman who wore
it back from a visit to Scotland, etc.......

The site says: "To help you identify with these tartans we list below some
Irish family names which are associated with a Clan or District tartan
(although some of these families may also have their own tartan)".

I think what they mean is "To MAKE you identify with these tartans, we list
below some Irish family names which WE HAVE JUST DECIDED are associated with
a Clan or District tartan (AND NONE of these families......have their own
tartan EITHER)"

Sean


John P. DuLong

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Dec 23, 2001, 1:06:32 PM12/23/01
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I think you have to really credit the Scottish wool industry with the
innovative idea of trying to spread tartan demand to Ireland and elsewhere.

I know that they even have an official tartan for Québec. Now I am willing
to bet that many more of my French Canadian ancestors wore tartans than my
Irish ancestors. French Canadian lumberjacks often wore flannel shirts with
a tartan pattern. Of course it was not the official Québec tartan and it
was purchased because it was colorful and in local store.

JP

John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
USA
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org

Sean J Murphy

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Dec 23, 2001, 5:31:11 PM12/23/01
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To demonstrate how far the fabrication of Irish 'clans' has gone, see the
'tartan' of The O Carroll of Ely, a recognised Irish Chief, at
http://www.clancian-carroll.com/ The following remarkable information is
also given:

"The Clan Cian Tartan was designed in 1983, and registered with the Scottish
Tartans Society of Scotland. It was further posted with the Chief Herald of
Ireland as a certified tartan for use by the Clan Cian-O'Carroll
(Ciannachta) of ancient Ormond and the Eile O'Carroll Territory. Other
related clans with different family names are also authorized to use the
tartan, such as those of the Dal gCas (Dalcassians) of Thomond and the
Eugenians (Eoghanachta) of Desmond. The tartan is registered under #89003.
The Clan Cian Tartan was also registered in the United States with the
Tartan Educational and Cultural Association (TECA) under certificate number
5-1489.

"By charter of agreement this tartan is to be used universally by the
Dalcassian, Ciannacht, and Eoghanacht family septs, as well as the dependent
and related septs of the Province of Munster and other parts of Ireland. If
you have the blood of any of these clans in you, you are authorized to wear
the Tartan."

Och aye, to be sure!

Sean Murphy
A Register of Irish Chiefs
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/register.htm


John P. DuLong

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Dec 23, 2001, 7:20:24 PM12/23/01
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It has been some time since I last looked at the following book:

McClintock, Henry Foster. _Old Irish & Highland dress and that of the Isle
of Man_. 2nd enl. ed. Dundalk [Ire.] Dundalgan Press, 1950.

In it you will find that although Irish and Scottish Highland clothing were
once alike, when they were similar, it was nothing like modern Highland
garb. They wore long saffron colored linen robes with colorful mantles.
Later the Scottish Highlanders adopted the use of wool tartan clothing as it
became increasingly difficult for them to acquire Irish linen clothing. At
least this is what I recall reading. I also believe McClintock suggested
that if the Irish wanted to adopt a national dress that it would more
ressemble fancy Greek dress than Scottish Highland dress. They would have a
fancy pleated ruffle around the waist.

Another book to look at is:

Heath, Ian. _The Irish Wars, 1485-1603_. Illustrations by David Sque.
London: Osprey Publishing Ltd., Men-at-Arms Series, no. 256, 1993.

This book has many original black and white illustrations and several
reconstructed color illustrations of traditional Irish clothing. This is
what our ancestors wore. Not tartan kilts.

In fact, I believe that even during the British period the Irish regiments
with pipers had them dressed in saffron colored kilts, not tartan kilts.

If the Irish and Irish-Americans want to adopt tartans, then fine, but just
so they are honest enough to admit that it is not ancient, it is not Irish,
and it is being borrowed from Scotland.

Micheál Ó Caináin

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Dec 23, 2001, 8:00:43 PM12/23/01
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The gift shop is even more of a hoot.

Rgds

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Micheál Ó Caináin
Do not reply to this address. Post to group.
"Sean J Murphy" <seanj...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:GQsV7.20868$8s4....@news.indigo.ie...


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