Third Cousin Once-removed auf Deutsch?

[Robert Heiling]

I've done some web searching and other checking, but am not certain and
so I'll take the lazy man's way out and ask. How do I express the
relationship between my newly found cousin and myself. He is my Third
Cousin Once-removed. Is that Dritte Vetter Einste Grade? He speaks only
German so all of our e-mails are necessarily in German.

Ist "Third Cousin Once-removed" auf Englisch = "Dritte Vetter Einste
Grade" auf Deutsch?

Danke!

Bob

[bjkaup]

In Germany you do not tend to formalize relationship further than
cousin.
In usage a man of the next older generation is called uncle=Onkel(if not
the father of course), a woman is called aunt=Tante.
A man of the same generation is a cousin= Kousin spoken with french
accent, i.e the in is spoken eng. The woman is called Kousine the ine
spoken eene. Wheras for the man Vetter is regionally still in use the
word Base for the woman is obsolete.
In direct contact one would adress respectfully Onkel or Tante, but you
would be regarded facetious if calling your cousin so.

If describing the relationship one would rather say "he is the grandson
of the brother of the second wife of my grandfather" instead of using
numerals.

mfg
bjk

[Robert Heiling]

bjkaup wrote:

> In Germany you do not tend to formalize relationship further than
> cousin.

Thanks, but we don't either, in that sense.

> In usage a man of the next older generation is called uncle=Onkel(if not
> the father of course), a woman is called aunt=Tante.
> A man of the same generation is a cousin= Kousin spoken with french
> accent, i.e the in is spoken eng. The woman is called Kousine the ine
> spoken eene. Wheras for the man Vetter is regionally still in use the
> word Base for the woman is obsolete.
> In direct contact one would adress respectfully Onkel or Tante, but you
> would be regarded facetious if calling your cousin so.

Yes. It's the same way here.

> If describing the relationship one would rather say "he is the grandson
> of the brother of the second wife of my grandfather" instead of using
> numerals.

Yes, in speaking with family members who don't understand genealogy terms at
a family gathering, but I'm looking for the technical term used by
genealogists.

> mfg
> bjk

Bob

[bjkaup]

Robert Heiling schrieb:

snip snap

>
, but I'm looking for the technical term used by
> genealogists.

since genealogy in the sense discussed here is more ore less an american
invention the use of american terms is standard.

mfg
bjk

[Robert Heiling]

bjkaup wrote:

Thanks again, but my point of confusion on this would be as follows. I have
"The New Cassell's German Dictionary" copyright 1958, 1962, 1965, 1971 by
Funk & Wagnalls, New York, which is generally considered to be one of the
better works of its kind. Under the multiple uses, examples, & translations
of the word "removed" it has "cousin twice -ed, der Vetter zweiten Grades".
Perhaps you can understand my confusion on this now?

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Friedrich Lehmkühler wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Nov 2001 21:52:28 GMT, Robert Heiling
> <rob...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Thanks again, but my point of confusion on this would be as follows. I have
> >"The New Cassell's German Dictionary" copyright 1958, 1962, 1965, 1971 by
> >Funk & Wagnalls, New York, which is generally considered to be one of the
> >better works of its kind. Under the multiple uses, examples, & translations
> >of the word "removed" it has "cousin twice -ed, der Vetter zweiten Grades".
>

> Of course, there are "Vettern ersten, zweiten, dritten
> Grades" in Germany, too. Not only as a term of genealogists
> but also in use in the families. However, there may be
> regional and individual differences whether it is used or
> not.
>
> Vetter ersten Grades = son of one of my parent's siblings;
> we have common grandparents.
> Vetter zweiten Grades = son of my fahter's or mother's
> "Vetter ersten Grades"; we have common great grandparents.
> a.s.o.
>
> However, only cousins of the same generation are called
> "Vetter" or "Base".
>
> Friedrich

Thanks for your reply.

It looks like "ersten Grades" can be used in more than one way. In English,
First Cousins have the same Grandparents, Second Cousins the same
Great-Grandparents, Third Cousins the same Great-Great Grandparents. That would
correspond to your "Vetter ersten (zweiten, dritten) Grades" if I understand you
correctly.

In my original example, I and the other person's father are Third Cousins (Vetter
dritte Grades?), but he is one more removed in the family tree (once-removed).
How do I say Third Cousin once-removed in German?

Bob

[Franz Gärke]

Verdammt geile Beiträge, Friedrich!
Meine Gratulation (von einem Hobby-Forscher)

Franz Gärke

"Friedrich Lehmkühler" <F.Lehm...@t-online.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:83e7ut0glg7opeoq8...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 03 Nov 2001 00:22:50 GMT, Robert Heiling
> <rob...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> >It looks like "ersten Grades" can be used in more than one way. In
English,
> >First Cousins have the same Grandparents, Second Cousins the same
> >Great-Grandparents, Third Cousins the same Great-Great Grandparents. That
would
> >correspond to your "Vetter ersten (zweiten, dritten) Grades" if I
understand you
> >correctly.
>

> Yes, you did ;)

>
> >In my original example, I and the other person's father are Third Cousins
(Vetter
> >dritte Grades?), but he is one more removed in the family tree
(once-removed).
> >How do I say Third Cousin once-removed in German?
>

> Meaning that he is a Third Cousin of your father? There is
> no special word for this degree of relationship in German.
> If both are not in the same generation one would use the
> Uncle/Nephew designation rather than Cousin. To make it more
> exact - for example for describing the degree of
> relationship at a familiy reunion - you would say: he is the
> son of my father's third cousin, or: his mother is my third
> cousin.
>
> Friedrich
>

[Tilman Brandl]

Hi,

> .......... cousin= Kousin spoken with french accent, i.e the in is
spoken eng

LOL. Sorry, that's really not too important and doesn't help answering
the question. Which has been answered by now, if I'm not mistaken. But:

The pronounciation 'cooseng' as given here is a specialty of Northern
parts of Germany. Elsewhere it's being pronounced close to or exactly
like the French version, i.e. without the ending ng or at least g. If
I'm not mistaken, this is also the 'official' pronounciation in High
German.

Regards

Tilman

[Robert Heiling]

Tilman Brandl wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > .......... cousin= Kousin spoken with french accent, i.e the in is
> spoken eng
>
> LOL. Sorry, that's really not too important and doesn't help answering
> the question. Which has been answered by now, if I'm not mistaken.

I never did get a definitive answer here in the newsgroup, but I did
receive a private e-mail and apparently my own first stab at it wasn't very
far off. With the minor corrections, "Third Cousin Once-removed" in
English would be "Dritte Vetter Ersten Grades" auf Deutsch. My grateful
thanks go again to the person who sent me the e-mail.

Bob

[bjkaup]

I told Robert also that there was no commonly understood translation of
the american genealogical terms and that he instead of using translated
gobble-di-dock should use the american term as is.

Ich habe Robert geschrieben, dass es keine allgemein verständliche
Übersetzung der amerikanischen genealogischen Fachwörter gibt und dass
er anstelle einer babylonischen Übersetzung beser die ursprünglichen
amerikanischen Ausdrücke verwenden sollte.

There seem however to be some german genealogists in this group who want
to have a german word for it, which however is understood by germans
only correctly, if they are enthusiasts of the terms used when one had
to provide an Ahnenpass.

Es gibt in dieser Gruppe aber einige deutsche Genealogen, die gern eine
deutsche Bezeichnung hätten, die Deutsche aber nur dann verstehen, wenn
sie Liebhaber der Terminologie sind, die zur Zeit der Ahnenpässe
gebräuchlich war.

I agree that a "Vetter dritten Grades in der Seitenlinie" will generate
a smile instead of understanding.

Ich bin auch der Auffassung das der " Vetter dritten Grades in der
Seitenlinie" eher Gelächter als Verstehen erzeugt.
mfg
bjk

[Robert Heiling]

bjkaup wrote:

> I told Robert also that there was no commonly understood translation of
> the american genealogical terms and that he instead of using translated
> gobble-di-dock should use the american term as is.

The problem with that approach is that my 3rd cousin once-removed speaks NO
English. If I wish to describe our relationship to him, I must express it in
German and using the "american term as is" would be totally meaningless to
him.

Bob

[bjkaup]

if you want to approach him, you will first have to interest him to the
matter. If you assume interest you may wait for answer and never recieve
one.
Therefor it is advisable not to work with degrees, which are not
understood in Germany (full stop) but rather describe the connection in
the past "the younger brother of your great-grandfather from the mothers
side was my great grandfather too" and the way how you arrived in the
present times.

mfg
bjk

[Meike]

[This followup was posted to soc.genealogy.german and a copy was sent to
the cited author.]

In article <3BE2ECB9...@home.com>, rob...@home.com says...

Hi Bob,

"Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation. I have
heard this before in connection with inheritance. My uncle, a notary,
tried to explain it to me once a long time ago. But I have to agree with
other posters here, that outside a legal context I haven't heard this
expression and would try to describe the relationship. I.e. Your great
great grand father is my great great great grand father, "dein
Ururgrossvater ist mein Urururgrossvater".

Try asking your question in a legal newsgroup. Maybe they have better
ideas.

Meike

PS Can't get hold of my uncle at the moment.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/e/b/e/Meike-Ebersbachbrown-
Berkshire/
http://www.genealogy.net/privat/Ebersbach.html

[Robert Heiling]

It wasn't my intention when I first asked my question to get into a bitter
disagreement. I was simply looking for the German equivalent and expected
that in that great language of science and scholarship that so many
scientific principles have been written about with precision that I would
get an easy answer. Since so many Americans mistakenly think that a second
cousin is the child of a first cousin and have said so in these various
newsgroups, I've been on the alert for that same misunderstanding in any
responses I've received here. So far I've gotten basically 3 different
answers One person has told me to use a Uncle/Nephew relationship (???).
Another has told me to use the American term although I was looking for
the German. And another has told me that my version was correct with minor
corrections. You might understand my confusion as to who to believe. :-)

bjkaup wrote:

> if you want to approach him, you will first have to interest him to the
> matter. If you assume interest you may wait for answer and never recieve
> one.

That's not the problem as we are both interested and I never asked that
question. We've been carrying on an e-mail correspondence for some time
now.

> Therefor it is advisable not to work with degrees, which are not
> understood in Germany (full stop) but rather describe the connection in
> the past "the younger brother of your great-grandfather from the mothers
> side was my great grandfather too" and the way how you arrived in the
> present times.

We both understand the family tree & relationship already and it's just a
matter of coming up with the right terminology. His father is my third
cousin as his father & I share the same great-great grandparents. It seems
strange that Swedish has a special word for third cousin, "brylling", but
that it can't even be said in German according to some of the responses I've
gotten.

> mfg
> bjk

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Meike wrote:

> [This followup was posted to soc.genealogy.german and a copy was sent to
> the cited author.]
>
> In article <3BE2ECB9...@home.com>, rob...@home.com says...
> >
> > I've done some web searching and other checking, but am not certain and
> > so I'll take the lazy man's way out and ask. How do I express the
> > relationship between my newly found cousin and myself. He is my Third
> > Cousin Once-removed. Is that Dritte Vetter Einste Grade? He speaks only
> > German so all of our e-mails are necessarily in German.
> >
> > Ist "Third Cousin Once-removed" auf Englisch = "Dritte Vetter Einste
> > Grade" auf Deutsch?
> >
> > Danke!
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Bob,
>
> "Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation. I have
> heard this before in connection with inheritance. My uncle, a notary,
> tried to explain it to me once a long time ago. But I have to agree with
> other posters here, that outside a legal context I haven't heard this
> expression and would try to describe the relationship. I.e. Your great
> great grand father is my great great great grand father, "dein
> Ururgrossvater ist mein Urururgrossvater".

Thanks, Meike. That's 2 votes *for* now. :-)

> Try asking your question in a legal newsgroup. Maybe they have better
> ideas.
>
> Meike
>
> PS Can't get hold of my uncle at the moment.

I'll appreciate any and all input from him when you make contact.

Thanks

Bob

[bjkaup]

your embarrassment is a direct result of your not saying for what
purposes you want the translation: most posters first assumed that you
wantet to contact a person which in your termonology was the third
cousin once removed.
You got the answer that you should forget a translation but rather use
terms like uncle or nephew.
Then you said you wanted to contact a professional genealogist. The
posters advised you that you should use the american term.
Again you turned 180 degrees and proposed to contact a person who was
not able to understand english. You got the advice again to used terms
like uncle or nephew.
Why do you expect that a person not understanding plain english would
understand genealogical terms, even if translated into a couple of
german words which however have a meaning for a professional genealogist
only?

The only definition to be looked up in a normal dictionary is the
relationship and the degrees thereof. The degree is determined by the
number of birth's.
First degree is your parents and your children, second degree is your
grandparents, your grandchildren and your brothers and sisters, third
degree is your greatgrandparents, your greatgrandchildren, your nephews
and nieces, your aunts and uncles, the fourth degree contains besides
many others your cousins.
Just directly and not removed.
The average german would not even be able to remember all names of the
forth degree directly related, not to speak of the removed.
Why should there be a name for it?
And the farther you go, the less interesting is completeness.
My great uncle, bearer of a famous name was able to present a complete
family tree till about 1300, when the first name bearer was registered
about three generations before the popular one was born. Despite of most
of the generation producing more than 5 children per couple, there was
only my great uncle left. His only son had been killed in WW II. The
tree looked like an onion bulb. More than 400 names contained. My great
uncle was the last to die. Nothing left than history.

mfg
bjk

[Robert Heiling]

bjkaup wrote:

> your embarrassment is a direct result of your not saying for what
> purposes you want the translation:

I'm confused, but not embarrassed. So if I asked for the German word for
"translation", you would need to know why I needed it? That's silly.

> most posters first assumed that you
> wantet to contact a person which in your termonology was the third
> cousin once removed.

No assumptions were requested or needed - only a translation!<full stop>

> You got the answer that you should forget a translation but rather use
> terms like uncle or nephew.

Those terms are not applicable to the situation.

> Then you said you wanted to contact a professional genealogist. The
> posters advised you that you should use the american term.

I said: "but I'm looking for the technical term used by genealogists." which
is somewhat different than what you are attributing to me. I can appreciate
the fact that English is not your native tongue and that you therefore have
misunderstood some of the things I said and that is understandable, but I do
need to correct you.

> Again you turned 180 degrees

What in the world are you talking about?

> and proposed to contact a person who was
> not able to understand english.

I didn't "propose". I've already been corresponding with him in German and
fortunately he can understand me.

> You got the advice again to used terms
> like uncle or nephew.

Those terms don't apply to the situation.

> Why do you expect that a person not understanding plain english would
> understand genealogical terms,

Why would you expect him to understand the American terms?

> even if translated into a couple of
> german words which however have a meaning for a professional genealogist
> only?
>
> The only definition to be looked up in a normal dictionary is the
> relationship and the degrees thereof. The degree is determined by the
> number of birth's.
> First degree is your parents and your children, second degree is your
> grandparents, your grandchildren and your brothers and sisters, third
> degree is your greatgrandparents, your greatgrandchildren, your nephews
> and nieces, your aunts and uncles, the fourth degree contains besides
> many others your cousins.
> Just directly and not removed.
> The average german would not even be able to remember all names of the
> forth degree directly related, not to speak of the removed.
> Why should there be a name for it?

There is in English and other languages - why not in German?

> And the farther you go, the less interesting is completeness.
> My great uncle, bearer of a famous name was able to present a complete
> family tree till about 1300, when the first name bearer was registered
> about three generations before the popular one was born. Despite of most
> of the generation producing more than 5 children per couple, there was
> only my great uncle left. His only son had been killed in WW II. The
> tree looked like an onion bulb. More than 400 names contained. My great
> uncle was the last to die. Nothing left than history.

I would have preferred that you had not responded if you didn't have an
answer. As I said before, I wasn't looking for a bitter disagreement - only
a translation.<full stop>

> mfg
> bjk

Bob

[Matthias Rempe]

Robert,

>>>>> "RH" == Robert Heiling <rob...@home.com> writes:

RH> The problem with that approach is that my 3rd cousin
RH> once-removed speaks NO English. If I wish to describe our
RH> relationship to him, I must express it in German and using the
RH> "american term as is" would be totally meaningless to him.

as far as I know there's no German translation for 3rd cousin once
removed. Maybe "entfernter Verwandte(r)" describes a German term used
in that situation.

But take a look at:
http://www.frank-schnell.de/verwandtschaft.htm

Maybe this helps to explain the 3rd cousin once-removed.

Matthias

[Fred Ric Gordon]

Yep, that way all you have to do is print it out, and instead of wondering
HOW to say it, you can simply display the chart and point to the kinship.

Ric
in Texas, USA

> ==============================
> Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com!
> http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2
>

[Robert Heiling]

Matthias Rempe wrote:

Thanks! That's a nice table. If I am reading it correctly, it tells me
that a third cousin is "Cousin 3 Grad" or "Cousin dritte Grad"? or
perhaps even "Vetter dritte Grad"? Then one could simply add that
person's child (kind) in the possessive to show the once-removed. Would
that be "Cousin/Vetter dritte Grads Kind"?

There are examples from similar languages such as Swedish where a 3rd
cousin is "brylling" and 3rd cousin once-removed is "bryllings barn"; and
Norwegian where they are respectively "'firmenning'' and "firmennings
barn".

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Fred Ric Gordon wrote:

> Yep, that way all you have to do is print it out, and instead of wondering
> HOW to say it, you can simply display the chart and point to the kinship.

It's a very nice chart, but knowing HOW to say it was the whole purpose of my
question. Both my cousin & I are quite familiar with the family tree and the
sole reason I posted my question was to know HOW to say it in German!

Bob

[Ted Elston]

Bob,
Had similar situation- both in Sweden and Germany.
My wife who is native German and understands genealogy advised me to
use the term cousin and layout the realtionship via a series of family
tree layouts. That worked quite well for both cases.Both cousins have
visted with us since then.And in 2003 we will travel to both countries
for visits and a will be joined by the German cousin for a visit into
old East Prussia.
Any correspondence and telephone chats that I have with either party
( we use the term cousin).
Ted Elston

On Tue, 06 Nov 2001 00:15:09 GMT, Robert Heiling <rob...@home.com>
wrote:

>Fred Ric Gordon wrote:

[Franz Gärke]

"Robert Heiling" <rob...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3BE72B9A...@home.com...

> Fred Ric Gordon wrote:
>
> > Yep, that way all you have to do is print it out, and instead of
wondering
> > HOW to say it, you can simply display the chart and point to the
kinship.
>
> It's a very nice chart, but knowing HOW to say it was the whole purpose of
my
> question. Both my cousin & I are quite familiar with the family tree and
the
> sole reason I posted my question was to know HOW to say it in German!
>
> Bob
>

Bob, why won't you believe it:

W e d o n o t m o v e o r r e m o v e o u r c o u s i
n s,
at any time, we do not remove them once, we do not remove them twice or
anything else.

Franz

[Robert Heiling]

"Franz Gärke" wrote:

I won't believe it because I've had other people tell me how to say it and I
also have examples from two other similar languages. When faced with conflicting
information, a person has to make a choice.

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Ted Elston wrote:

> Bob,
> Had similar situation- both in Sweden and Germany.
> My wife who is native German and understands genealogy advised me to
> use the term cousin and layout the realtionship via a series of family
> tree layouts. That worked quite well for both cases.Both cousins have
> visted with us since then.And in 2003 we will travel to both countries
> for visits and a will be joined by the German cousin for a visit into
> old East Prussia.
> Any correspondence and telephone chats that I have with either party
> ( we use the term cousin).
> Ted Elston

Hi Ted

That sounds a lot like the time we met my wife's cousin in the Stuttgart area. She
had previously corresponded with him and when we were there in Stuttgart and
looked up his phone number it was his father's number, but we didn't know that his
father had the same name. I called and asked "ich möchte mit ___ sprecken, bitte".
The father who had answered the phone said loudly: "Vaaaaaasss?", so I repeated
and then he called to his son who just happenend to be visiting and told him:
"Amerikaner"<g>. I guess he knew the accent.<g> We met then and have exchanged
visits many times since and recently had their son live with us for 2 weeks to
practise his English for an upcoming test!

Bob

[Jens Gutsell]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2001 00:09:45 GMT, Robert Heiling <rob...@home.com> wrote:

>Thanks! That's a nice table. If I am reading it correctly, it tells me
>that a third cousin is "Cousin 3 Grad" or "Cousin dritte Grad"? or
>perhaps even "Vetter dritte Grad"? Then one could simply add that
>person's child (kind) in the possessive to show the once-removed. Would
>that be "Cousin/Vetter dritte Grads Kind"?

You could say, he/she is "das Kind meines Vetters dritten Grades", but most
Germans rather would have to think twice, it's so unusual to use these terms
in common language. I would rather refer to our common anchestor:
("mein Urgroßvater ist ihr Ur-Urgroßvater" or "mein Großvater und ihr
Urgroßvater waren Brüder").

Jens

[Gerd Schmerse]

Robert Heiling schrieb am Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:41:17 GMT:

>> "Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation. I have
>> heard this before in connection with inheritance. My uncle, a notary,
>> tried to explain it to me once a long time ago. But I have to agree with
>> other posters here, that outside a legal context I haven't heard this
>> expression and would try to describe the relationship. I.e. Your great
>> great grand father is my great great great grand father, "dein
>> Ururgrossvater ist mein Urururgrossvater".
>
>Thanks, Meike. That's 2 votes *for* now. :-)

since you start counting: ;-)))

"outside a legal context" hardly someone will understand it. Nobody with
common sense in Germany will call a person from a different generation a
cousin. In another posting you complained:

|expected
|that in that great language of science and scholarship that so many
|scientific principles have been written about with precision that I would
|get an easy answer.

"removed" isn't precise either - what direction? In German, if it is
removed to an older generation, it is called an uncle or aunt, twice
removed is a granduncle, three times a great granduncle etc. If the
removed points to a younger generation it's nephew or niece instead.

So my vote goes to that uncle/nephew solution that you attached those
questionsmarks to ;-)

Regards
Gerd

[Franz Gärke]

This guy is really crazy, but he loves this group.

Jungs, so langsam steht die Ehre des deutschsprachigen Raums auf dem Spiel.
Was haben die Schweden, was wir nicht haben? Versuchen wir des doch einmal
anders:
"once" wäre vielleicht "once upon a time" = in früherer Zeit
move/removed = zur Seite gestellt
Könnten wir ihm also die "Seitenlinie" anbieten, oder aber wenn wir so einen
verrückten Vetter vor uns haben, etwas verächtlicher "Nebenlinie".
Dann wäre sein Vetter also ein "Verwandter aus einer Seitenlinie" oder ein
"Verwandter aus einer entfernten Nebenlinie".

Wir sind zwar alle irgendwie auch Nebenlinie, kommt auf den jeweiligen
Standpunkt des Betrachters an, aber immerhin ...

Also Jungs, strengt euch an, ich zähle auf Euch.

Gruß
Franz

"Robert Heiling" <rob...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:3BE73D40...@home.com...

[Robert Heiling]

Gerd Schmerse wrote:

> Robert Heiling schrieb am Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:41:17 GMT:
>
> >> "Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation. I have
> >> heard this before in connection with inheritance. My uncle, a notary,
> >> tried to explain it to me once a long time ago. But I have to agree with
> >> other posters here, that outside a legal context I haven't heard this
> >> expression and would try to describe the relationship. I.e. Your great
> >> great grand father is my great great great grand father, "dein
> >> Ururgrossvater ist mein Urururgrossvater".
> >
> >Thanks, Meike. That's 2 votes *for* now. :-)
>
> since you start counting: ;-)))
>
> "outside a legal context" hardly someone will understand it.

Most Americans don't understand the term "once-removed" either until it has been
explained to them. That's no excuse not to use the term as it is very useful. I
expect that people in these genealogy newsgroups should have a better
understanding of the terminology than the general public except for the people
who are new here and to genealogy.

> Nobody with
> common sense in Germany will call a person from a different generation a
> cousin.

We will have to tell that to my wife's cousins in the Stuttgart area then as
they have never had a problem using the word cousin. :-)

> In another posting you complained:
>
> |expected
> |that in that great language of science and scholarship that so many
> |scientific principles have been written about with precision that I would
> |get an easy answer.
>
> "removed" isn't precise either - what direction?

But it is precise since the term has been defined. You will see in my example
below.

> In German, if it is
> removed to an older generation, it is called an uncle or aunt, twice
> removed is a granduncle, three times a great granduncle etc. If the
> removed points to a younger generation it's nephew or niece instead.

That usage shows that you don't understand the usage of once-removed, so I will
give an example.

> So my vote goes to that uncle/nephew solution that you attached those
> questionsmarks to ;-)

Wrong! I started this thread because I've been corresponding in German with a
cousin in Europe and let's call him "B". Let's use "A" for the father of B.

A is my third cousin (in English) because we have the same UrurGroßvater &
UrurGroßmutter. In Swedish, A is my brylling. In Norwegian, A is my firmenning.
I will get examples from more languages if necessary. Is there no way to say it
in German? I do NOT believe that there is no way!

Because A is my third cousin, his son B is my third cousin once-removed (in
English). In Swedish, B is bryllings barn and in Norwegian he is firmennings
barn. Is there no way to say that in German? I DO NOT believe that there isn't a
way and two people have told me that my original guess was close.

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

"Franz Gärke" wrote:

> This guy is really crazy, but he loves this group.

Who's crazy? I'd love it a lot better if I got an answer to my original
question.

> Jungs, so langsam steht die Ehre des deutschsprachigen Raums auf dem Spiel.

That's true. :-)

> Was haben die Schweden, was wir nicht haben?

Ich habe es gesagt.

> Versuchen wir des doch einmal
> anders:
> "once" wäre vielleicht "once upon a time" = in früherer Zeit
> move/removed = zur Seite gestellt
> Könnten wir ihm also die "Seitenlinie" anbieten, oder aber wenn wir so einen
> verrückten Vetter vor uns haben, etwas verächtlicher "Nebenlinie".
> Dann wäre sein Vetter also ein "Verwandter aus einer Seitenlinie" oder ein
> "Verwandter aus einer entfernten Nebenlinie".

You are getting confused by a direct English to German translation without
recognizing the basic genealogical concept.

> Wir sind zwar alle irgendwie auch Nebenlinie, kommt auf den jeweiligen
> Standpunkt des Betrachters an, aber immerhin ...
>
> Also Jungs, strengt euch an, ich zähle auf Euch.

See the example I just gave and perhaps you will understand better.

Bob

[Gerd Schmerse]

Robert Heiling schrieb am Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:10:15 GMT:

>> In German, if it is
>> removed to an older generation, it is called an uncle or aunt, twice
>> removed is a granduncle, three times a great granduncle etc. If the
>> removed points to a younger generation it's nephew or niece instead.
>That usage shows that you don't understand the usage of once-removed, so I will
>give an example.

I still think I have understood - but perhaps have not expressed clearly
what I mean. It's still removed *cousins* I'm talking about - not
"simple" uncles.

>A is my third cousin (in English) because we have the same UrurGroßvater &
>UrurGroßmutter. In Swedish, A is my brylling. In Norwegian, A is my firmenning.
>I will get examples from more languages if necessary. Is there no way to say it
>in German? I do NOT believe that there is no way!

Since both are in the same generation, it is rather uncomplicated: even
in German they are cousins - but no simple ordinals are used, instead
the grade (Grad) is used, counted by the number of linking births: so he
is your Cousin 4. Grades. (I am not too sure about these numbers: in
this way a Cousin 1. Grades would not exist).

>Because A is my third cousin, his son B is my third cousin once-removed (in
>English). In Swedish, B is bryllings barn and in Norwegian he is firmennings
>barn. Is there no way to say that in German? I DO NOT believe that there isn't a
>way and two people have told me that my original guess was close.

As a son of a Cousin he is a Neffe - I guess a "Neffe 4. Grades" (but am
unsure like I said above about the number).

Regards
Gerd

[Franz Gärke]

"Robert Heiling" <rob...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:3BE81989...@home.com...

> Wrong! I started this thread because I've been corresponding in German
with a
> cousin in Europe and let's call him "B". Let's use "A" for the father of
B.
>
> A is my third cousin (in English) because we have the same UrurGroßvater &
> UrurGroßmutter. In Swedish, A is my brylling. In Norwegian, A is my
firmenning.
> I will get examples from more languages if necessary. Is there no way to
say it
> in German? I do NOT believe that there is no way!
>
> Because A is my third cousin, his son B is my third cousin once-removed
(in
> English). In Swedish, B is bryllings barn and in Norwegian he is
firmennings
> barn. Is there no way to say that in German? I DO NOT believe that there
isn't a
> way and two people have told me that my original guess was close.

Halten wir also fest, Vetter A, das ist derjenige, der mit dem "Vaaaaaasss?"
beschrieben wurde, ist Bob's Vetter dritten Grades, aber noch ohne
"once-removed", dessen Sohn B ist ebenfalls sein Vetter dritten Grades, hat
nun aber das Anhängsel "once-removed" erhalten. Ist "once-removed" dann
vielleicht Vetternkinder?

Es müßte doch mit dem Teufel zugehen, wenn die deutschte Sprache hierfür
nicht eine Erklärung parat hätte.

Gruß
Franz

[Meike]

>
> "Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation.

I think I am wrong, I had as advised in an other post a look at
http://www.frank-schnell.de/verwandtschaft.htm and I am now totally
confused. According to Frank we are talking about a "Cousin 3. oder 4.
Grades", depending who is the starting person. It seems we Germans have
no name for the shift in generations (once
removed).

It seems to be dependent on the number of births to the common ancestor
which is 3 for one person and 4 for the other. Exactly as described under
the heading "Kanonisches Recht". The other way to describe the
relationship is according to civil law "Buergerliches Recht" you just
count the number of births between the 2 individuals. In this context 7.
That means you and your cousin are related "im 7. Grad in der
Seitenlinie". (I think....)

It is a shame that this website is only available in German.

Meike

PS I don't think I am confused any more having tried to work though and
translate our little problem or maybe I am..... <g>

[Meike]

>
> Halten wir also fest, Vetter A, das ist derjenige, der mit dem "Vaaaaaasss?"
> beschrieben wurde, ist Bob's Vetter dritten Grades, aber noch ohne
> "once-removed", dessen Sohn B ist ebenfalls sein Vetter dritten Grades, hat
> nun aber das Anhängsel "once-removed" erhalten. Ist "once-removed" dann
> vielleicht Vetternkinder?
>
> Es müßte doch mit dem Teufel zugehen, wenn die deutschte Sprache hierfür
> nicht eine Erklärung parat hätte.
>
> Gruß
> Franz
>
>
>
>

Ich denke das Wichtigste ist, dass es sich um Vettern 3. oder 4. Grades
handelt, je nachdem, wer die Bezugsperson ist. "3rd cousin once removed"
findet man sowohl in der hellblauen und in der moosgruenen Spalte. (Hoffe
nur, dass ich nicht Farbenblind bin).

Meike :-)

[Robert Heiling]

"Franz Gärke" wrote:

> "Robert Heiling" <rob...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:3BE81989...@home.com...
> > Wrong! I started this thread because I've been corresponding in German with
> a
> > cousin in Europe and let's call him "B". Let's use "A" for the father of B.
> >
> > A is my third cousin (in English) because we have the same UrurGroßvater &
> > UrurGroßmutter. In Swedish, A is my brylling. In Norwegian, A is my
> firmenning.
> > I will get examples from more languages if necessary. Is there no way to say
> it
> > in German? I do NOT believe that there is no way!
> >
> > Because A is my third cousin, his son B is my third cousin once-removed (in
> > English). In Swedish, B is bryllings barn and in Norwegian he is firmennings
>
> > barn. Is there no way to say that in German? I DO NOT believe that there
> isn't a
> > way and two people have told me that my original guess was close.
>
> Halten wir also fest, Vetter A, das ist derjenige, der mit dem "Vaaaaaasss?"
> beschrieben wurde, ist Bob's Vetter dritten Grades, aber noch ohne
> "once-removed",

Nein. Das war meine Frau's Cousin. :-)

> dessen Sohn B ist ebenfalls sein Vetter dritten Grades, hat
> nun aber das Anhängsel "once-removed" erhalten. Ist "once-removed" dann
> vielleicht Vetternkinder?

Ja richtig und es ist so in Schwedish - bryllings (third cousin's) barn
(child/kind).

> Es müßte doch mit dem Teufel zugehen, wenn die deutschte Sprache hierfür
> nicht eine Erklärung parat hätte.

Der Teufel hat kein Cousin. :-)

> Gruß
> Franz

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Gerd Schmerse wrote:

> Robert Heiling schrieb am Tue, 06 Nov 2001 17:10:15 GMT:
>
> >A is my third cousin (in English) because we have the same UrurGroßvater &
> >UrurGroßmutter. In Swedish, A is my brylling. In Norwegian, A is my firmenning.
> >I will get examples from more languages if necessary. Is there no way to say it
> >in German? I do NOT believe that there is no way!
>
> Since both are in the same generation, it is rather uncomplicated: even
> in German they are cousins - but no simple ordinals are used, instead
> the grade (Grad) is used, counted by the number of linking births: so he
> is your Cousin 4. Grades. (I am not too sure about these numbers: in
> this way a Cousin 1. Grades would not exist).

OK, except that I think it would be 3 Grades.

> >Because A is my third cousin, his son B is my third cousin once-removed (in
> >English). In Swedish, B is bryllings barn and in Norwegian he is firmennings
> >barn. Is there no way to say that in German? I DO NOT believe that there isn't a
> >way and two people have told me that my original guess was close.
>
> As a son of a Cousin he is a Neffe - I guess a "Neffe 4. Grades" (but am
> unsure like I said above about the number).

I can't agree with that. A Neffe is what we call Nephew and that is a son of a sister
or brother. My sister's son is my nephew. My nephew's son is my grandnephew. None of
those people are cousins.

Bob

[Robert Heiling]

Meike wrote:

> >
> > "Dritter Cousin/Vetter ersten Grades" is also my best translation.
>
> I think I am wrong, I had as advised in an other post a look at
> http://www.frank-schnell.de/verwandtschaft.htm and I am now totally
> confused. According to Frank we are talking about a "Cousin 3. oder 4.
> Grades", depending who is the starting person. It seems we Germans have
> no name for the shift in generations (once
> removed).

Except perhaps to use the Scandanavian style and talk about the
child/son/daughter of that cousin?

> It seems to be dependent on the number of births to the common ancestor
> which is 3 for one person and 4 for the other. Exactly as described under
> the heading "Kanonisches Recht". The other way to describe the
> relationship is according to civil law "Buergerliches Recht" you just
> count the number of births between the 2 individuals. In this context 7.
> That means you and your cousin are related "im 7. Grad in der
> Seitenlinie". (I think....)
>
> It is a shame that this website is only available in German.

But the colored chart is there in English also, although the German is no
problem. However, it gives different results for cousins than my genealogy
program, TMG. I'm not sure which is right now. :-(

> Meike
>
> PS I don't think I am confused any more having tried to work though and
> translate our little problem or maybe I am..... <g>

But now I'm confused.<g>

Bob

[Henning Boettcher]

Wenn man über "Third Cousin Once-removed" so lange und intensiv
diskutieren muß, ohne sofort den richtigen deutschen Begriff
vorbringen zu können, dann sollte man der Eindeutigkeit zuliebe bei
dem Vorschlag von bjk bleiben: "he is the grandson of the brother of
the second wife of my grandfather".
Andernfalls wird es nichts als Misverständnisse geben.

--
Kind regards
Henning Boettcher

"Robert Heiling" <rob...@home.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:3BE2ECB9...@home.com...

[Meike]

> But the colored chart is there in English also, although the German is no
> problem. However, it gives different results for cousins than my genealogy
> program, TMG. I'm not sure which is right now. :-(
>

The colored charts give you I believe the correct English expression,
which is the same as my genealogy programmes. (FTM, PAF, Legacy). I can't
really comment on the German one apart of that it makes sense. I have
only a German Version of PAF which just makes an attempt of a literally
translation of the English expression, I.e. "3. Cousinen 1. Grades" but
has no resemblance to the German chart. Maybe you and your cousin can
come to a conclusion together.

Have fun

Meike

[Robert Heiling]

Henning Boettcher wrote:

> Wenn man über "Third Cousin Once-removed" so lange und intensiv
> diskutieren muß, ohne sofort den richtigen deutschen Begriff
> vorbringen zu können, dann sollte man der Eindeutigkeit zuliebe bei
> dem Vorschlag von bjk bleiben: "he is the grandson of the brother of
> the second wife of my grandfather".
> Andernfalls wird es nichts als Misverständnisse geben.

You've said that in English and it's equivalent is also easily said in
German, but that unfortunately wasn't the question. The Scandanavians
immediately came up with direct answers to my original question in their
languages. I guess it was a little too difficult for this group though.
:-(

Kind regards

Bob

[Jens Gutsell]

>> Since both are in the same generation, it is rather uncomplicated: even
>> in German they are cousins - but no simple ordinals are used, instead
>> the grade (Grad) is used, counted by the number of linking births: so he
>> is your Cousin 4. Grades. (I am not too sure about these numbers: in
>> this way a Cousin 1. Grades would not exist).
>
>OK, except that I think it would be 3 Grades.

You may not know that there is a legal usage/definition ( $1589 BGB) of
relations among people to a certain "Grad".

I'm not very deep in this but its the way (= number of births between
you and the other one):

your parents, children are "Verwandte 1. Grades"
your grandparents, grandchildren, brothers and sisters are "Verwandte 2. Grades"
your a nephew, niece, ... are "Verwandte 3. Grades"

So, your 3ed cousion once removed would be a "Verwandter 7. Grades" by German law.

But a 2nd cousin 3 times removed would also be "Verwander 7. Grades" :-)

So don't get mixed up with the different usage of the term "Grad" by you and other writers..

Jens

[Gerd Schmerse]

Robert Heiling schrieb am Tue, 06 Nov 2001 21:35:27 GMT:

>I can't agree with that. A Neffe is what we call Nephew and that is a son of a sister
>or brother. My sister's son is my nephew. My nephew's son is my grandnephew. None of
>those people are cousins.

Exatly that's the difference between English and German usage.

Regards
Gerd

[Barbara Schmidt]

Habt Ihr eigentlich mittlerweile keine anderen Probleme mehr?
Es sind doch wohl genug Antworten gekommen, die den Sachverhalt beschreiben...
Barbara

mailto: schmid...@web.de

Suche nach (researching):
Schmidt, Ohrt, Groth, Freytag (Freitag), Kranz, Bade, Vogt, Bumann und Petrowsky in Schleswig-Holstein und Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

Ribbe und Nicolaus in Sachsen

Ribbe in Sachsen-Anhalt

Tylinski (Tilinski), Nicolaus, Czaschkowski und Schaudin in Ostpreussen
________________________________________________________________
Lotto online tippen! Egal zu welcher Zeit, egal von welchem Ort.
Mit dem WEB.DE Lottoservice. http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13

[Wolfgang]

>> your embarrassment is a direct result of your not saying for what
>> purposes you want the translation:
>
>I'm confused, but not embarrassed. So if I asked for the German word for
>"translation", you would need to know why I needed it? That's silly.
>
Sory, if you think that is 'silly', than please use Babelfish in
Altavista and forget to ask about a 'translation'.

BUT: a real translation is to find a term which the other person would
apply in his language to understand the same thing and for this you
should know what real language the person is used to and understands;
and here you better know the person and his vocabular. And thus the
purpose of your translation is important.
A translation is not a simple replacement of a word by a second word
in the other language!

Good luck with your family-tree
Wolfgang

[Gerhard Bauch]

Here is my contribution, hier ist mein Beitrag :

Hope, it's not too long, hoffe, er ist nicht zu lang,

Gerhard Bauch
Raunheim
Germany
mailto:Gerd...@gmxpro.de

0 HEAD
1 SOUR advertising suppressed
2 VERS advertising suppressed
1 DATE 09 NOV 2001
1 DEST advertising suppressed
1 CHAR ANSI
1 GEDC
2 VERS 4
2 FORM LINEAGE-LINKED
0 @S1@ SUBM
1 NAME Gerhard Bauch
0 @I1@ INDI
1 NAME Great Grandfather /Urgrossvater/
1 SEX M
1 CHAN
2 DATE
1 FAMS @F1@
1 FAMC @F11@
0 @I2@ INDI
1 NAME Grandfather /Grossvater/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F2@
1 FAMC @F1@
0 @I3@ INDI
1 NAME Grossonkel /Granduncle/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F5@
1 FAMC @F1@
0 @I4@ INDI
1 NAME Father /Vater/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F3@
1 FAMC @F2@
0 @I5@ INDI
1 NAME Myself /Ich/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F10@
1 FAMC @F3@
0 @I6@ INDI
1 NAME Brother /Bruder/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F7@
1 FAMC @F3@
0 @I7@ INDI
1 NAME Uncle /Onkel/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F4@
1 FAMC @F2@
0 @I8@ INDI
1 NAME Cousin /Cousin/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F8@
1 FAMC @F4@
0 @I9@ INDI
1 NAME First Cousin Once Removed /Onkel 2. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F6@
1 FAMC @F5@
0 @I10@ INDI
1 NAME Second Cousin /Cousin 2. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F9@
1 FAMC @F6@
0 @I11@ INDI
1 NAME Nephew /Neffe/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F14@
1 FAMC @F7@
0 @I12@ INDI
1 NAME First Cousin Once Removed /Neffe 2. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F16@
1 FAMC @F8@
0 @I13@ INDI
1 NAME Second Cousin Once Removed /Neffe 3. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F17@
1 FAMC @F9@
0 @I14@ INDI
1 NAME Son /Son/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F15@
1 FAMC @F10@
0 @I15@ INDI
1 NAME Great Great Grandfather /UrurGrossvater/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F11@
0 @I16@ INDI
1 NAME Great Granduncle /Urgrossonkel/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F12@
1 FAMC @F11@
0 @I17@ INDI
1 NAME First Cousin Twice Removed /Grossonkel 2. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F13@
1 FAMC @F12@
0 @I18@ INDI
1 NAME Second Cousin Once Removed /Onkel 3. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F18@
1 FAMC @F13@
0 @I19@ INDI
1 NAME Grand Nephew /Grossneffe/
1 SEX M
1 FAMC @F14@
0 @I20@ INDI
1 NAME Grandson /Enkel/
1 SEX M
1 FAMC @F15@
0 @I21@ INDI
1 NAME First Cousin Twice Removed /Grossneffe 2. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMC @F16@
0 @I22@ INDI
1 NAME Second Cousin Twice Removed /Grossneffe 3. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMC @F17@
0 @I23@ INDI
1 NAME Third Cousin /Cousin 3. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F19@
1 FAMC @F18@
0 @I24@ INDI
1 NAME Third Cousin Once Removed /Neffe 4. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 FAMS @F20@
1 FAMC @F19@
0 @I25@ INDI
1 NAME Third Cousin Twice Removed /Grossneffe 3. Grades/
1 SEX M
1 CHAN
2 DATE 09 NOV 2001
1 FAMC @F20@
0 @F1@ FAM
1 HUSB @I1@
1 CHIL @I2@
1 CHIL @I3@
0 @F2@ FAM
1 HUSB @I2@
1 CHIL @I4@
1 CHIL @I7@
0 @F3@ FAM
1 HUSB @I4@
1 CHIL @I5@
1 CHIL @I6@
0 @F4@ FAM
1 HUSB @I7@
1 CHIL @I8@
0 @F5@ FAM
1 HUSB @I3@
1 CHIL @I9@
0 @F6@ FAM
1 HUSB @I9@
1 CHIL @I10@
0 @F7@ FAM
1 HUSB @I6@
1 CHIL @I11@
0 @F8@ FAM
1 HUSB @I8@
1 CHIL @I12@
0 @F9@ FAM
1 HUSB @I10@
1 CHIL @I13@
0 @F10@ FAM
1 HUSB @I5@
1 CHIL @I14@
0 @F11@ FAM
1 HUSB @I15@
1 CHIL @I1@
1 CHIL @I16@
0 @F12@ FAM
1 HUSB @I16@
1 CHIL @I17@
0 @F13@ FAM
1 HUSB @I17@
1 CHIL @I18@
0 @F14@ FAM
1 HUSB @I11@
1 CHIL @I19@
0 @F15@ FAM
1 HUSB @I14@
1 CHIL @I20@
0 @F16@ FAM
1 HUSB @I12@
1 CHIL @I21@
0 @F17@ FAM
1 HUSB @I13@
1 CHIL @I22@
0 @F18@ FAM
1 HUSB @I18@
1 CHIL @I23@
0 @F19@ FAM
1 HUSB @I23@
1 CHIL @I24@
0 @F20@ FAM
1 HUSB @I24@
1 CHIL @I25@
0 TRLR

[Robert Heiling]

Gerhard Bauch wrote:

> Here is my contribution, hier ist mein Beitrag :
>
> Hope, it's not too long, hoffe, er ist nicht zu lang,

Danke Gerhard

Nicht zu lang und sehr gut. Ich habe es nun in PAF.

I think you have answered my question! A "Third Cousin Once Removed" in
American-English is a "Neffe 4. Grades" auf Deutsch. Nicht wahr?

Many thanks!

Bob

> Gerhard Bauch
> Raunheim
> Germany
> mailto:Gerd...@gmxpro.de
>
> 0 HEAD
> 1 SOUR advertising suppressed
> 2 VERS advertising suppressed

> 1 DATE 09 NOV 2001<snip>

[Gerhard Bauch]

Hi Robert,

I am pleased, that you like it, schön dass es Dir gefällt.

I thought to myself : a GEDCOM says more than 1000 Words.

Ich dachte mir, eine GEDCOM Datei sagt mehr als 1000 Worte.

That is the degree of relationship representation, I normally use,

Das ist die Verwandtschaftsbeschreibung, die ich normalerweise
verwende.

There is a little bug in the GEDCOM : INDI 25 the Third Cousin Twice
Removed, is a Grossneffe 4. Grades and not 3. Grades (sorry).

Es ist ein kleiner Fehler drin : INDI 25 ist ein Grossneffe 4. Grades.

More Questions ? weitere Fragen ?

mailto:Gerd...@gmxpro.de

Gerhard Bauch
Raunheim
Germany

[Robert Heiling]

Gerhard Bauch wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I am pleased, that you like it, schön dass es Dir gefällt.
>
> I thought to myself : a GEDCOM says more than 1000 Words.
>
> Ich dachte mir, eine GEDCOM Datei sagt mehr als 1000 Worte.
>
> That is the degree of relationship representation, I normally use,
>
> Das ist die Verwandtschaftsbeschreibung, die ich normalerweise
> verwende.

Yes! That is a very good way to display the information.

> There is a little bug in the GEDCOM : INDI 25 the Third Cousin Twice
> Removed, is a Grossneffe 4. Grades and not 3. Grades (sorry).
>
> Es ist ein kleiner Fehler drin : INDI 25 ist ein Grossneffe 4. Grades.

No problem! I have made the change.

> More Questions ? weitere Fragen ?

Not right now. You have been very helpful

Danke vielmals!

Bob

[Franz Gärke]

"Gerhard Bauch" <Gerd...@gmxpro.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:5ed06d5f.01111...@posting.google.com...

Ja, freuen wir uns mit Bob.

Bevor ich nun versuche nachzuvollziehen, warum das Kind eines Cousins nun
ein Neffe ist, meine Frage:

Verlassen wir mit dieser Liste nicht den Tugendpfad der Genealogie?
Bisher habe ich angenommen, daß die deutsche Sprache das "Groß" immer nur
nach oben, also in Richtung der Ahnen, verwendet und nicht Richtung
Nachkommen. Von einem "Großenkel" habe ich noch nie gehört, sondern
"Urenkel", wie paßt dann der "Großneffe" da hinein?

Franz Gärke

[Henning Boettcher]

Der mir geläufige 'Großsohn' geht doch aber bestimmt nach 'unten',
oder?
Obwohl ich nun an die 15 Jahre Familienforschung betreibe, vermeide
ich die vielen in diese endlose Diskussion geworfenen Bezeichnungen
für Verwandschaftsbeziehungen und verdeutliche entfernten Verwandten
irgendwelche Verwandschschaftsverhältnisse lieber mit eindeutigen
Diagrammen, weil mir die oben erwähnten Bezeichnungen bis auf die
naheliegensten, wie Vater, Mutter, Sohn, Tochter, Bruder und
ähnliche, selber nicht immer klar sind.
Meine Mutter schickte mich vor vielen Jahren "Geh mal zu deinen
Vettern und spiele mit ihnen!". Sie konnte mir aber nicht sagen,
wieso das meine Vettern waren. Das war einer der Anlässe für meine
spätere Familienforschung. Ergebnis: der mit diesen 'Vettern'
gemeinsame Vorfahre war 1808 (achtzehnhundert und acht) geboren und
war mein Ururgroßvater! Ich wage nicht, das Wort Vettern in diesem
Falle durch etwas 'richtigeres' zu ersetzen, ich könnte es auch
nicht.

--
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Henning Böttcher
Schweiz
Meine Forschungsgebiete siehe
http://www.familienkunde.de/mitglieder/boettcher.htm

"Franz Gärke" <fr...@t-online.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9sjnkq$4dg$05$1...@news.t-online.com...

[Regina Aufm Kampe]

"Franz Gärke" <fr...@t-online.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9sjnkq$4dg$05$1...@news.t-online.com...

> Bevor ich nun versuche nachzuvollziehen, warum das Kind eines Cousins nun
> ein Neffe ist, meine Frage:
>
> Verlassen wir mit dieser Liste nicht den Tugendpfad der Genealogie?
> Bisher habe ich angenommen, daß die deutsche Sprache das "Groß" immer nur
> nach oben, also in Richtung der Ahnen, verwendet und nicht Richtung
> Nachkommen. Von einem "Großenkel" habe ich noch nie gehört, sondern
> "Urenkel", wie paßt dann der "Großneffe" da hinein?
>
> Franz Gärke
>

Hi Franz,

also das scheint mir ganz einfach zu sein, meine Großtanten sind die
Schwestern meiner Großmutter, im Gegenzug bin ich die Großnichte meiner
Großtanten. Ich selber bin Großtante zu den Enkelkindern meines Bruders,
meiner Schwägerinnen und Schwager.
Die Enkelkinder meines Bruders und meine Enkelkinder sind zueinander, wie
man bei uns (in Buxtehude im Kreis Stade) sagt, Cousin/Cousinenkinder.
Bezeichnungen für eine weitere Generation kenne ich dann aber auch nicht
mehr - und ich denke, die gibts auch nicht.

Gruß - Regina

[Gerhard Bauch]

Was Henning Böttcher vorschlägt, verwende ich ebenfalls, neben der mir
geläufigen Systemantik, die ich vorgestellt habe.

Kommt auf die Situation an. Wenn ich darstellen will, das ich mit
Person 1 (mein Cousin 3. Grades) näher verwandt bin, als mit Person 2
(mein Cousin 4. Grades) dann ist eben diese Systematik hilfreich.

Wenn ich einem (neuen) Verwandten unsere Verwandschaft erkläre, ist
die Nennung des gemeinsamen Ahnen hilfreich. Das eine schliesst doch
das andere nicht aus.

"Gross" steht dabei für den Generationenabstand. Und zwar genau 2. Der
Grossneffe ist das Gegenteil zum Grossonkel. Die Ausnahme macht
freilich der "Enkel" (ist das Hennings Grosssohn ?).

Besides my system, I use Henning Böttcher's proposal as well.
Depending on the situation. If want to represent, that person 1 (my
cousin 3rd degree) is my closer relative than person 2 (my cousin 4th
degree) I find my system very helpful.

If I have to explain our relationship to a new relative I tell him/her
our latest common ancestor. The one system does not exclude the other
one.

"Gross" stands for a generation distance of two. Grossonkel is the
counterpart of Grossneffe.

The exception is "Enkel" we wouldn't use "Grosskind" in Germany.

Gerhard Bauch
Raunheim
Germany
mailto:Gerd...@gmxpro.de

http://www.GerdBauch.de

[Gerd Schmerse]

Henning Boettcher schrieb am Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:12:20 +0100:

>Ich wage nicht, das Wort Vettern in diesem
>Falle durch etwas 'richtigeres' zu ersetzen, ich könnte es auch
>nicht.

Da der Spielgefährte vermutlich in derselben Generation war, ist er auch
'richtig' ein Vetter - zu ergänzen um "4. Grades". Dies wird man
umgangssprachlich sicherlich zumeist weglassen. Ihre verehrte Frau
Mutter hat sich also in diesem Sinne völlig korrekt ausgedrückt... ;-)))

Gruß
Gerd

[Henning Boettcher]

"Gerd Schmerse" <ge...@detebe.de> schrieb

> Henning Boettcher schrieb am Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:12:20 +0100:
>
> >Ich wage nicht, das Wort Vettern in diesem
> >Falle durch etwas 'richtigeres' zu ersetzen, ich könnte es auch
> >nicht.
>
> Da der Spielgefährte vermutlich in derselben Generation war, ist
er auch
> 'richtig' ein Vetter - zu ergänzen um

> "4. Grades". ......
Da geht's schon los:
Laut Bürgerlichem Gesetzbuch (BGB) 'bestimmt sich der Grad einer
Verwandtschaft nach der Zahl der sie vermittelnden Geburten'. Hier
zähle ich nun aber acht Geburten, vier zurück zu meinem
Ururgroßvater und vier zu meinem Vetter!
Habe ich ein Diagramm (siehe unten) vorliegen, brauchen mich weder
um BGB noch um die Art der Zählung zu interessieren, jeder kann
sehen, wie die Verwandtschaft zustande gekommen ist und mögliche
Mißverständnisse werden verhindert.
Henning 'Vetter'
¦ ¦
Eltern Eltern
¦ ¦
Großeltern Gr-E.
¦ ¦
Urgr-Eltern Urgr.
¦ ¦
Ururgroßeltern
PS
Ob wir mit der Anzahl Postings noch ins Guiness-Buch der Rekorde
kommen?

[LNie...@navix.net]

Many, if not most, Americans do not understand the 'removed' cousinships.
Genealogy has adopted the legal terminology and lawyers do understand. My
German *first cousin once removed* calls me 'Tante Lila' and regards me as
his aunt because he is belongs to a generation younger than I. Therefore I
think that some Germans are like Americans in that they don't understand the
terminology. Lila

> ==============================
> Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com!
> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp
>
>

[Gerd Schmerse]

Henning Boettcher schrieb am Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:08:01 +0100:

>> "4. Grades". ......
>Da geht's schon los:

Ja, "Kanonisches Recht" contra "Buergerliches Recht", siehe Message-ID
<MPG.165247c55...@news.btclick.com> in diesem Thread.

Gruß
Gerd