Platt-Deutsch
Three Cedars
My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
they were, always said, "Platt-Deutsch". As they were from the Hamburg
region, and as I have had only a year of German Language in school, some
30+ years ago, I am guessing that it is a dialect of northern German
origin. Or as 'platt' seems to mean, plain or common, were they saying
that they were just plain ol' German? A friend of mine suggested that
it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---somehow, this doesn't
ring true to me. Does anyone in the group know? Kate
BF
Am 23.06.1997 16:34, in der Meldung <33AE89...@worldnet.att.net>, Three Cedars <BuK...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb:
Plattdeutsch seems to be a dialect of the German language, but it is
a different language. The words are not only spoken in another way.
The language "Plattdeutsch" has their own words. Many words are
more similar to the Dutch and English language than to the German.
It is spoken in northern Germany and in the different regions of northern
Germany we have several dialects of the Plattdeutsch language.
F.e. :
Twelve o'clock (engl.)
clock twarf (plattdeutsch)
zwoelf Uhr (german)
water
Water
Wasser
and for the dutch "connection":
verlaat (plattdeutsch and dutch)
Schleuse (german)
sluice-gate, lock
Charles & Karen Hofmann
Three Cedars wrote:
>
> My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
> they were, always said, "Platt-Deutsch". As they were from the Hamburg
> region, and as I have had only a year of German Language in school, some
> 30+ years ago, I am guessing that it is a dialect of northern German
> origin. Or as 'platt' seems to mean, plain or common, were they saying
> that they were just plain ol' German? A friend of mine suggested that
> it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---somehow, this doesn't
> ring true to me. Does anyone in the group know? Kate
It has nothing to do with being POOR..... It was the language spoken in
most of what is now Northern Germany and a good part of what is now
Poland that was also part of Germany. In the book stores in Hamburg you
can find many books written in Platt Deutsch today. There is always the
debate of if Platt Deutsch and Hoch Deutsch are different languages or
just dialects, but this has nothing to do with one's status. Johnnes
Bugenhagen who was one of the colleages of the Great Reformer Martin
Luther, is credited with the translation of the Bible to Platt Deutsch,
and in later years he did much of his work in Mechlenburg.
Hope this helps,
Charles Hofmann aus Tucson, Arizona und Little Meadows, Pennsylvania
Try our Hofmann Family Home Page, there are many names there and some
good links to other research aids including the AAl sponsored Lutheran
Genealogy Newsgroup.
<http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html>
Jane Mahlig
In article <33AE89...@worldnet.att.net>, BuK...@worldnet.att.net
says...
>
>My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
>they were, always said, "Platt-Deutsch". As they were from the
Hamburg
>region, and as I have had only a year of German Language in school,
some
>30+ years ago, I am guessing that it is a dialect of northern German
>origin. Or as 'platt' seems to mean, plain or common, were they
saying
>that they were just plain ol' German? A friend of mine suggested that
>it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---
Sometimes Plattdeutsch was used as a kind of pejorative term for
lower-class. In my family the story was that grandpa's family (who had
a little money, and who made an effort to marry well) looked down on
grandma's, because they were "Plattdeutsch" (and only farmers). I
don't think it necessarily meant poor, just sort of, well, "not as good
as we are" (or we think we are).
--
Jane
Researching
EFFLAND/MAHLIG/MEYER/RADKE/SCHMIEL/SEELIG/SIEKEMEYER
http://www.ncweb.com:80/users/jem630/names.html
C / K Hofmann
HCALTMANN wrote:
>
> Plattdeutsch is a dialect, pure and simple. There are many dialects in
> Germany, for example Bavarian. Hochdeutsch, or written German, is itself
> a dialect: The dialect of Martin Luther who translated the bible into the
> Saxon dialect, and this dialect became accepted as the written German.
> Plattdeutsch is the dialect of the Waterkant, that area which adjoins the
> North Sea. I understand that it is similar to the Dutch language spoken
> in the Netherlands and is, in some respects, quite similar to English.
You could find some who would agree with you, I personally can't
subscribe to this theory. Actually the East Sea (Ostsee) I think you had
intended to include which includes all of Mechlenburg and areas that
were part of historic Prussia far to the East. You put some old men in
the same room from the northern lowlands, Vogelsberg bei Fulda, and bei
Dinkelsbuhl, and they won't understand a word each other are saying
unless they resort to Hoch Deucsch Sprache. Same Sprache??? maybe???
Charles Hofmann aus Tucson Arizona und Little Meadows, Pennsylvania
--
<http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html> Try our Home Page, we
are researching many names in Germany and Holland and have hopefully
included some interesting views and URLs you will enjoy.
HCALTMANN
Fred Frettchen (remove z in reply)
->My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
->they were, always said, "Platt-Deutsch". As they were from the Hamburg
->region, and as I have had only a year of German Language in school, some
->30+ years ago, I am guessing that it is a dialect of northern German
->origin. Or as 'platt' seems to mean, plain or common, were they saying
->that they were just plain ol' German? A friend of mine suggested that
->it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---somehow, this doesn't
->ring true to me. Does anyone in the group know? Kate
Hi Kate,
Plattdeutsch is a norther dialect quite similar to duch. Nothing else,
nothing less.
pasp
zurth
Three Cedars wrote:
>
> My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
Plattdeutsch simply is the dialect which was spoken in the extrem northern part of Germany (even more in the
north than Hamburg). Platt means plain as you guessed and refers to the landscape.
Especially the rural regions of Northern Germany were not the richest regions except the cities of the Hanse
League. Having in mind that the dialects usually are extremer in rural regions (because of the low
fluctuation, the word Plattdeutsche might have got an additional sense as "poor farmers".
Best regards,
Uwe Zurth, Germany
hettrickhill
My grandmother's family was from Wuerttemburg and my grandfather's
family was from Hesse-Darmstadt. They met and married in the state of
Nebraska in the mid-western U.S.A. Each one claimed that the other
spoke lousy German so they always spoke English to each other. They
went to the Evangelical Church but all the kids went to the Methodist
church because services at the Evangelical Church were in German and the
Methodists spoke English.
The only German that the kids learned was a poem. I recited it to a
friend who is fluent in German and she was fascinated with the language
difference.
So what languages / dialects did my grandparents speak?
Diane Hettrick (probably HEADRICK or something else)
Shoreline, State of Washington, USA
dhet...@earthlink.net
HCALTMANN
Neither of them spoke Plattdeutsch, which is the dialect of northern
Germany. The one from Wuerttemberg probably spoke the Schwaebisch
dialect, the one from Hesse Hessian. Hessian is closer to today's written
German than Schwaebisch. Both Schwaebisch and Hessian are upper German
dialects.
Dale F. Smith
Platt also means "low", as in the lowlands of Germany, as opposed to the
mountainous regions. My family spoke Plattdeutsch and made it quite
clear to me that it was in no way inferior to "high" German. They felt
quite separate culturally from southern Germans, whom they referred to
as "fremde" or strangers. It is interesting to note that while my
family learned English, they still maintained Plattdeutsch language even
after they had been in California many years. I even have a copy of a
menu for a Bremervoerde Verein dinner written in Plattdeutsch.
Speaking of menus, do any Plattdeutschers out there know of "grunkohl",
or green kale, prepared in north German Style, with oats and
Pinckelwurst? Southern Germans seem to have never heard of it.
Fortunately, I have an old family recipe.
Dale Smith
Oliver Kranzusch
>>A friend of mine suggested that
>> it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---somehow, this doesn't
>> ring true to me. Does anyone in the group know? Kate
>>
level, as those people haven't learn a proper German at school.
Nowadays dialects are more popular and especially in the south of
Germany speaking dialect is cultured as part of a sense of belonging.
In the north, dialect is not cultured to that extent.
In the south dialects are spoken in every region, in the north
dialects often are spoken by people from the rural areas. Other than
the Queens- or Oxford-English we learned in school High German is
actually a spoken language ( the region of Hannover it is said to be
the one with the most accurate High German and a friend therefore once
said to me i speak an "anti-septic" German :-) )
>Plattdeutsch seems to be a dialect of the German language, but it is
>a different language. The words are not only spoken in another way.
Hmm...when i first heard the Dialect spoken in Baden i couldn't
understand a single word and same goes for Hessian Platt. But those
are still German dialects. Even the 'Schwytzerduitsch', spoken in
Switzerland is a german dialect, although they call High German
'Written German' since High German does not really count as a spoken
language there. Consider that languages evolve over the time and that
certain words may be used just in certain regions. You probably think
of Frisian, wich is in fact no german dialect but an own language. The
only region were frisian survived as a spoken language is the island
Helgoland in the northern sea.
The term Platt usually refers to northern german dialects, but also
the Hessen dialect is called Hessisch Platt. Platt means flat but more
in the sense of the flat area of the North of Germany :)
>The language "Plattdeutsch" has their own words. Many words are
>more similar to the Dutch and English language than to the German.
Consider also that e.g. Mittelniederdeutsch' is sometimes more similar
to Dutch and English than to High German. Then, Plattdeutsch, Dutch
and Anglosaxon all evolved in the same region and todays English is
different from anglosaxon too. English Dutch and German are very
closely related languages and Dutch is said to be a german tongue.
Example: Wi talk op Platt = We talk/speak Platt = Wir sprechen Platt
This is just one very short sentence but notice the strong resemblance
between Low German, English and High German
There's that song " Ick heff mo'n Hamburger Veermaster sejn" wich i
learned at school, some other Germans from the North may know this too
Dale: You're talking of "Gruenkohl mit Pinkel", a very delicious meal
*yummie*. It's Gruenkohl mit Pinkel in the norhtern part of Lower
Saxony.I come from the region of Hannover wich is South-east-Lower
Saxony were we call it "Braunkohl mit Bregenwurst" ( "Bregenschuelpen"
means Headache in Platt, Bregen meaning "brain" - Bregenwurst partly
contains sheep brain.) It's a quite solid meal.
Oliver Kranzusch
Bernd Babisch
--
My dear US-citisen,
I hope yous does finaly understand, that Plattdeutsch is one form of the
german language. In the middelage it was a world language and was understand
in a lot of States, because the Hanse (a tarder organisation) mad that time
his business in the whole norther Europe including Great Britain and the
Netherlands.
It is no dialekt!!
Here is a very simple exlanation:
In southern Germany (Austria and Switzerland), where the ground is high, all
forms of the german language where called Hochdeutsch.
In the middelstrip of Germany, where the mountains are not so high, all
dialekts are called Mittelhochdeutsch.
Northern of the Mittelgebirge the ground is flate and is called "Die
nordeutsche Tiefebene". In this area the language was called Niederdeutsch
or Plattdeutsch. Nieder means flate and Platt is in our Plattdeutsch also
flate.
Since 1872, after the uniting of the german empire, we did need one (!) only
one Amtsprache for all the german States. The Hochdeutsch language, which
was firsttime spoken in the kingshouses of Austria and Bavaria, became the
Amtsprache for the united Germany. Mr. Duden wrote that time his ruelbook,
which is also today the ruelbook for all States with a german language
(Austria, Switzerland, Germany and so on).
The Plattdeutsch-language has a lot of dialekts. The Plattdeutsch, which is
spoken here in Schleswig-Holstein is different from the Platt in Lower
Saxoni, or Mecklenburg/Pommerania, or Hamburg. Even in Schleswig-Holstein
you can find different dialects in the different parts of our State.
But since 1972, when we got the Hochdeutsch as the Amtssprache in Germany,
the different dialects do loose her importens. Most of them children can not
learn in the school. They can speak it only at home and if her parents do
not speak at home our prity Plattdeutsch, the language does die in the
futur.
It is a pity, because the three roots of the german language (the
Hochdeutsch, Mittelhochdeutsch and Niederdeutsch) are a part of our culture
from the very past. The todays Hochdeutsch is a language outof the retort.
But I know, in our modern time, we need such a language outof the retorte.
But again: It is a pity.
Bernd
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Bernd Babisch * b...@smooth.netzservice.de * Phone: +49-431-129211 |
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
Christian Kamionka
On Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:34:36 -0700, Three Cedars
<BuK...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
"Plattdeutsch" is not only one dialect. It is true that is is spoken
mainly in the northern parts of Germany. But it is also true that the
Plattdeutsch spoken in the Hamburg area is far different from the
Plattdeutsch spoken in the area near the Dutch border.
So if you think of Plattdeutsch think of very many different local
dialects which are quite similar in some ways and also very different
in others.
Bye ...
--
Christian
JuJuBean11
Platt-Deutsch is a type of German spoken in the Schleswig-Holstein area of
Germany. The American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society in Davenport,
IA teaches Plattdeutsche as a part of their membership benefits.
Plattdeutsche means Low German...a German language dialect. The German
that is usually taught in high schools is not Low German. The A/SHHS
newsletter always has a story/poem written in Plattdeutsche along with
it's English translation. A lot of the plattdeutsche words look
Swedish/Danish, which could explain why Schleswig-Holsteiners spoke
Plattdeutsche since they were so close to the Danish border.
JuJuBean11
My grandfather was from the Oldenburg, Schleswig-Holstein area of Germany.
He spoke Platt-Deutsch which is Low German. He said there is also a High
German, which I think is the German taught in our public schools as a
foreign language. One of your grandparents might have spoken High German
and the other Platt-deutsche.
Just an idea!
gmwj...@earthlink.net
Interesting that a German fellow said Plattdeutsche is not a dialect.
Conrad Weck
Three Cedars <BuK...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>My father tells me that his grandparents, when asked what nationality
>they were, always said, "Platt-Deutsch". As they were from the Hamburg
>region, and as I have had only a year of German Language in school, some
>30+ years ago, I am guessing that it is a dialect of northern German
>origin. Or as 'platt' seems to mean, plain or common, were they saying
>that they were just plain ol' German? A friend of mine suggested that
>it was meant to indicate that they were 'poor'---somehow, this doesn't
>ring true to me. Does anyone in the group know? Kate
'Plattdeutsch ' ( or Niederdeutsch) is not just a dialect. It is an
informal, idiomatic or vernacular version of standard or literary
high German spoken in different geographic areas of Germany. "Platt"
(or plat) in this context means understandable, plain. It is usually
the primary and preferred verbal means of communication of the common,
ordinary people in the locality where it is spoken, but is also well
understood and used as required by those who must deal with
Plattdeutsch speakers. As a child I spoke East Prussian Plattdeutsch
with my playmates and later, as a young man, I learned and spoke a
different Plattdeutsch in Schleswig-Holstein. The words and phrases,
although pronounced differently in the two versions, seldom strayed
from the meaning of the literary German they mirrored.
Conrad
Arthur Hagen
Dale F. Smith wrote:
<snip>
> As to the context, it seems
> more reasonable to believe that platt should be interpreted as the
> opposite of hoch, or low, not plain. Is it just a coincidence that
the
> lower elevations of Germany spoke Low German and the mountainous
regions
> spoke High German?
>
> Dale Smith
>
I'm no expert either, but I followed the discussion about Platt-Deutsch
and I feel compelled to say that in Dutch (which is supposed to be
related) we say someone speaks "plat" when he or she speaks a dialect
(or noticable accent). Elevation can't be a factor here: the
Netherlands IS flat.
Arthur
Bernd Babisch
In article <33B57E...@earthlink.net>,
gmwj...@earthlink.net writes:
> JuJuBean11 wrote:
>>
>> Platt-Deutsch is a type of German spoken in the Schleswig-Holstein area of
>> Germany. The American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society in Davenport,
--
So it is!!! - Plattdeutsch is one of the three origins we had befor the
Hochdeutsch language became the Amtssprache in the united German Empire in
1872!!
Hochdeutsch, Mittelhochdeutsch und Niederdeutsch does not mean, that
Hochdeutsch is the better language and Niederdeutsch or Plattdeutsch (platt
means nieder = lower!) is the bad language!! -
Niederdeutsch (or Plattdeustch) has his name from the area in germany, where
this form of the german language was spoken: In the German Northern Plain,
where the ground is flate = platt = niedrig!! - So simple is the explanation
for this name!
Regards Bernd
Dagmar Swihart
Conrad Weck wrote:
>
> "Dale F. Smith" <dfs...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Conrad Weck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> 'Plattdeutsch ' ( or Niederdeutsch) is not just a dialect. It is an
> >> informal, idiomatic or vernacular version of standard or literary
> >> high German spoken in different geographic areas of Germany. "Platt"
>
>
> >I am probably no expert on Plattdeutsch, but I think that this
> >explanation perpetuates the myth that Plattdeutsch is somehow inferior
> >to Hochdeutsch. There is a resurgence of interest in preserving
> >Plattdeutsch and literature is being written in Plattdeutsch today.
> >There are also theater productions in plattdeutsch, according to
> >relatives of mine who live in Bremervoerde. As to the context, it seems
> >more reasonable to believe that platt should be interpreted as the
> >opposite of hoch, or low, not plain. Is it just a coincidence that the
> >lower elevations of Germany spoke Low German and the mountainous regions
> >spoke High German?
>
> >Dale Smith
>
> Plattdeutsch. That Plattdeutsch is deemed to be inferior to
> Hochdeutsch is not a myth, but a fact for the simple reason that
> Hochdeutsch is the common language spoken, written and understood by
> all German speaking peoples throughout the world.. Plattdeutsch, on
> the other hand, is very regional and it is not all that unusual that
> the Platt spoken in one area is not understood in another area only a
> few kilometers away. Since there has not been, to the best of my
> knowledge, a diminishing trend in the use of Plattdeutsch, I can't
> really see why there should be a need for a resurgence. Plattdeutsch
> has been around for hundreds of years and yes, there is poetry, there
> are plays and other literary works in Plattdeutsch. And why not,
> Plattdeutsch is, after all, a distinctive part of German culture.
>
> Conrad
>
> cw...@adan.kingston.net
Hello Conrad,
why are you saying that Platt-Deutsch is inferior? Would you say that
about all the different german dialects?
The Hoch-Deutsch wich the kids learn in school and also speek, is there
so all Germans can comunicate with each other. Because of all the
different dialects of the country.
It seem to me that you think all the dialects inferior. Are you or did I
misunderstand you?
Dagmar Swihart
> "Dale F. Smith" <dfs...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Conrad Weck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> 'Plattdeutsch ' ( or Niederdeutsch) is not just a dialect. It is an
> >> informal, idiomatic or vernacular version of standard or literary
> >> high German spoken in different geographic areas of Germany. "Platt"
>
> >> Snip
>
> >I am probably no expert on Plattdeutsch, but I think that this
> >explanation perpetuates the myth that Plattdeutsch is somehow inferior
> >to Hochdeutsch. There is a resurgence of interest in preserving
> >Plattdeutsch and literature is being written in Plattdeutsch today.
> >There are also theater productions in plattdeutsch, according to
> >relatives of mine who live in Bremervoerde. As to the context, it seems
> >more reasonable to believe that platt should be interpreted as the
> >opposite of hoch, or low, not plain. Is it just a coincidence that the
> >lower elevations of Germany spoke Low German and the mountainous regions
> >spoke High German?
>
> >Dale Smith
>
> You are absolutely correct, Dale. You are not an expert on
> Plattdeutsch. That Plattdeutsch is deemed to be inferior to
> Hochdeutsch is not a myth, but a fact for the simple reason that
> Hochdeutsch is the common language spoken, written and understood by
> all German speaking peoples throughout the world.. Plattdeutsch, on
> the other hand, is very regional and it is not all that unusual that
> the Platt spoken in one area is not understood in another area only a
> few kilometers away. Since there has not been, to the best of my
> knowledge, a diminishing trend in the use of Plattdeutsch, I can't
> really see why there should be a need for a resurgence. Plattdeutsch
> has been around for hundreds of years and yes, there is poetry, there
> are plays and other literary works in Plattdeutsch. And why not,
> Plattdeutsch is, after all, a distinctive part of German culture.
>
> Conrad
>
> cw...@adan.kingston.net
Conrad Weck wrote:
>
> "Dale F. Smith" <dfs...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Conrad Weck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> 'Plattdeutsch ' ( or Niederdeutsch) is not just a dialect. It is an
> >> informal, idiomatic or vernacular version of standard or literary
> >> high German spoken in different geographic areas of Germany. "Platt"
>
> >> Snip
>
> >I am probably no expert on Plattdeutsch, but I think that this
> >explanation perpetuates the myth that Plattdeutsch is somehow inferior
> >to Hochdeutsch. There is a resurgence of interest in preserving
> >Plattdeutsch and literature is being written in Plattdeutsch today.
> >There are also theater productions in plattdeutsch, according to
> >relatives of mine who live in Bremervoerde. As to the context, it seems
> >more reasonable to believe that platt should be interpreted as the
> >opposite of hoch, or low, not plain. Is it just a coincidence that the
> >lower elevations of Germany spoke Low German and the mountainous regions
> >spoke High German?
>
> >Dale Smith
>
> You are absolutely correct, Dale. You are not an expert on
> Plattdeutsch. That Plattdeutsch is deemed to be inferior to
> Hochdeutsch is not a myth, but a fact for the simple reason that
> Hochdeutsch is the common language spoken, written and understood by
> all German speaking peoples throughout the world.. Plattdeutsch, on
> the other hand, is very regional and it is not all that unusual that
> the Platt spoken in one area is not understood in another area only a
> few kilometers away. Since there has not been, to the best of my
> knowledge, a diminishing trend in the use of Plattdeutsch, I can't
> really see why there should be a need for a resurgence. Plattdeutsch
> has been around for hundreds of years and yes, there is poetry, there
> are plays and other literary works in Plattdeutsch. And why not,
> Plattdeutsch is, after all, a distinctive part of German culture.
>
> Conrad
>
> cw...@adan.kingston.net
Dagmar Swihart
Alfons Santen
I live in the the Netherlands near the border with Germany and we also have a dialect that is called "plat".
Here also there is a lot of prejudice against dialect.
The people is the west think they speak ABN ( the Dutch standard language).
Our plat looks very much like the "plat deutsch"
Lots of people beleive that "plat", here in my area and the plat deutsch is a separate language and not a
degenerated Dutch or German.
And.. it's true what I read, there are many, many English words which come directly from this area.
There are a lot of books written on this subject.
Conrad Weck
Robert Widmann
The huge Webster International Unabridged Dictionary in my local library
lists English (as language) as a plattdeutsch language along with Dutch
and Yiddish. Don't know if this interests anybody or not.
W. Fred Rump
Dagmar Swihart <mswi...@tcsn.net> wrote:
>why are you saying that Platt-Deutsch is inferior? Would you say that
>about all the different german dialects?
>
>It seem to me that you think all the dialects inferior. Are you or did I
>misunderstand you?
I think what Conrad is trying to say is that elitism is at work here.
It would be the same thing if you are about to hire an office manager
or a salesperson. Would you not expect this new employee to be able to
speak proper English? What do you think the Black English thing was
all about? In a society certain linguistic norms evolve which somehow
tie us together. Native born speakers who can not communicate in the
generally accepted standard will be considered inferior to the rest.
That's simply how it is. It says nothing about a particular language
or dialect being bad or inferior but it does say that a particular
person is not at the normally accepted educational level within
society.
As an aside, I must disagree with Conrad on his assumption that Platt
is as common as it ever was. It is not. It is slowly dying out in
every day normal conversation for the reasons given above. What is
happening now is that it is being seen as a cultural treasure in the
educational/cultural environment which does not want it to die out.
But as in all languages of the past, it is only a matter of time
before the only Platt we will be left with are voices of parochial
dialect on tape recordings. Modern communications media force a
certain sameness upon all of us which was not even possible in the
past. First it was radio but television has closed the curtain.
Fred
W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
HOFMANN
Well Put, Dale. This is the case with many of us whose ancestors came
from Germany. One of my Great Grandfather's and his brother first went
to New York and like many other industrious immigrants started a small
business there, but a few years later my Uropa went to Missouri where he
was a very successful farmer, the brother went to San Francisco and was
successful there. Both spoke Platt Deutsch, Hoch Deutsch, and English,
and English became the primary language spoken in the home. Today in a
number of small towns in Missouri they are trying to revive some level
of Platt Deutsch.
Charles Hofmann aus Tucson Arizona und Little Meadows, Pennsylvania
<http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.com>
Visit our home page for what we hope will be an interesting venture
Dale F. Smith wrote:
>
> Sorry to have set off such a firestorm here. I very much agree with
> Fred Rump as to the need for a common language to communicate. All my
> German ancestors were also schooled in "proper" German and I have my
> grandfather's graduation report card showing his good grades in
> "Deutsch" to prove it. When they came to America, they quickly learned
> English, as my grandfather was a grocer in a very multicultural area of
> San Francisco. English was spoken at home, not German, which is why
> what German I know was learned in school. They were really trilingual.
> This newsgroup is a good example of this need for a common language to
> communicate. Most of the posts are in English, but that doesn't make
> the German or Dutch posts inferior. In short, there are no inferior
> languages. The languages that become the means of broader more
> universal communication do so by usually by happenstance of history, not
> by any linguistic qualification standard. Plattdeutsch has it's
> cultural roots which deserve recognition rather than derision as an
> inferior language. I know nobody's mind will be changed and Ostfrisians
> will still be the butt of jokes, many of which I have already seen on
> the net, which like to portray them as the hillbillys of Germany. Part
> of my genealogy is the culture in which my ancestors lived and
> Plattdeutsch was a part of it.
>
> Dale Smith
Dale F. Smith
Dagmar Swihart
Hello Fred,
I do agree with you about the need to have a commen language in Germany
because there are so many dialects. But Conrads remarks siply got me
ticked off.
I do know that Platt is dying out, because I'm one of the persons who
have not learned to speak it. I used to understand it, bevore I moved to
the States, with practic I would get into it again (I hope). I grew up
in Hamburg and my parents both speak Hamburger Platt, but not my
siblings and me. I asked my mother at one time why we didn't learn to
speak Platt and my mother told me, that when we were little we said we
didn't wont to learn "english" (Platt).
Now I wish I had learned it, I do speak a word here and there but that
is not much.
Dagmar Swihart
Bernd Babisch
Hi Arthur,
it's correct. The language in the Netherlands are also related with the
Plattdeutsch language.
In a very very far explanation you can say the language of the Netherlands is
a "dialekt" of this old Niederdeutsch language. (It is not realy correct,
but it is an example to understand!).
The building of Hochdeutsch or Oberdeutsch, Mittelhochdeutsch and Niederdeutsch
or Plattdeutsch did need such a long time and did go some different ways, so
that we must say this are 3 roots of the german languag. - But in al three
parts you do find different dialekts - also today (!!).
It is not right to say all german dialects are Plattdeutsch! - This is
wrong, because Hochdeutsch or Oberdeutsch has his origin in that area of
Germany, where the ground is hoch (high) or is oben (above) and
Niederdeutsch is spoken where the ground is "niedrig" or "flach" (low). Flach
means platt and in in English low!! - Look at Lower Saxonia. It's the are,
which is low and look at "Nordeutsche Tiefebene" = The northern plain of
Germany. This are has also the name "Niederdeutschland" = Low Germany.
regards Bernd
HeirPf
I can not visualize that two people, one from Wuerttenberg the second from
Darmstadt would speak Platt Deutsch. Both regions had and still do have
distinctly diferent dialects. I know, since my family background is
Swabian.
They may have had difficulties understanding each others dialect,
however
neither dialect should be considered lousy German.
Jörg Battermann
Bernd Babisch wrote:
> =
> Hi Arthur,
> =
> It is not right to say all german dialects are Plattdeutsch! - This is
> wrong, because Hochdeutsch or Oberdeutsch has his origin in that area o=
f
> Germany, where the ground is hoch (high) or is oben (above) and
> Niederdeutsch is spoken where the ground is "niedrig" or "flach" (low).=
Flach
> means platt and in in English low!! - Look at Lower Saxonia. It's the a=
re,
> which is low and look at "Nordeutsche Tiefebene" =3D The northern plain=
of
> Germany. This are has also the name "Niederdeutschland" =3D Low Germany=
=2E
> =
And why the people in Hannover are speaking "Hochdeutsch"????
Are 52 m the Highlands of Germany ??? :-) =
> regards Bernd
> =
> *----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-*
> | Bernd Babisch * b...@smooth.netzservice.de * Phone: +49-431-129211=
|
> *----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-*
-- =
J=F6rg Battermann
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Dagmar Swihart
Hello to all,
I don't think that all parts of germany that are with mountains speak
Hoch-Deutsch, especaly see Bayern (Baveria) it lays in the Alps and they
don't speek Platt-Deutsch their dialect is Baverian. People from the
north have a very hard time understanding what they are saying and vice
versa. This is an example: I live in California. I was born in Hamburg.
I speek Hoch-Deutsch and can understand Platt-Deutsch. But I have a
friend here were I live and she is from Ulm (Schwaben), when I first met
her we had to speak english in order to understand each other because of
her dialect wich I couldn't understand. She had a hard time to speak
Hoch-Deutsch, because at her house they only spoke her dialect.
But Schwaben and Bayern are both with mountains so they are not flatt
and they don't speak Hoch-Deutsch. I belive Hoch-Deutsch is from the
middle part of Germany around Bremen and Hanover. I could be wrong
though.
Dagmar Swihart (von Hacht)
Celia E. Mitschelen
>
>I don't think that all parts of germany that are with mountains speak
>Hoch-Deutsch, especaly see Bayern (Baveria) it lays in the Alps and
they
>don't speek Platt-Deutsch their dialect is Baverian. People from the
>north have a very hard time understanding what they are saying and
vice
>versa. This is an example: I live in California. I was born in
Hamburg.
>I speek Hoch-Deutsch and can understand Platt-Deutsch. But I have a
>friend here were I live and she is from Ulm (Schwaben), when I first
met
>her we had to speak english in order to understand each other because
of
>her dialect wich I couldn't understand. She had a hard time to speak
>Hoch-Deutsch, because at her house they only spoke her dialect.
>But Schwaben and Bayern are both with mountains so they are not flatt
>and they don't speak Hoch-Deutsch.
Isn't it about time for this round of Hoch-Deutsch/Platt-Deutsch to
end. This is a frequently occurring thread that never really puts the
debate to rest.
It is partly a matter of semantics - language - dialect - there seem to
be differing ideas as to the meaning of these words in spite of
dictionaries.
The emphasis on the terrain where is is spoken is rather a moot point
at this time because the terms originated a long time back and probably
both have wandered somewhat from point of origin. There is nothing in
the mountain air that makes people speak Hoch - Deutsch or the reverse.
It just happens to be that it originated in the high country a long,
long time ago. It is the written language and the one used in school so
it will naturally spread - - even to the lower elevations.
It is a given that there are many dialects in today's Germany that
people feel are a part of their culture and are reluctant to give up.
That is there privelege and I see no point in continueing this thread
here. How about moving it to e-mail?
Celia
Joel Streich
Dear Group,
No wonder this thread has popped up again! The term Plattdeutsch
is equivocable! Too much so! In fact, even so much so that this
term is avoided by those most interested in preserving and studying
the language this nebulous term refers to in its narrow sense:
Low Saxon. Also, it seems that the "Deutsch" or "Saxon" part
of this language's name is causing problems in the promotion
of the study of Low Saxon in the Western Netherlands. It seems that
the Nederlander do not want to accept that a "German" language
is spoken there--some prefer to belive that the Low Saxon sprochen
there is related to Dutch (Oops! sorry "Dutch" another ambiguous
term is incorrect--Nederlandish!) so that they can avoid thinking of
nederland citizens as somehow "Deutsch" or "Saxon". But everyone,
except those who object, knows that Nederlandish is derived from
Old Low Franconian! (Yiddish from Middle High Franconian--and
its speakers don't want to think of it as German either.)
And what about Friesian, another "low" language
that is unique--not Franconian nor Saxon just Friesian in origin.
Well these are some of the threads discussed in Lowlands-L recently,
a mailing list for those interested in the "Low" languages. Other
"Low" languages frequently discussed there are Afrikans, English,
Lowland Scots, Plautdietsch and related creoles etc. I recommend
visiting the Lowlands-L web page for more info.
Has anyone out there recently read the short essay Martin Luther
wrote regarding why he chose Hochdeutsch?---Oops sorry Hochdeutsch
is incorrect, I meant HIGH SAXON, which is only one of several High
Branch of the GermanIC Languages. He said we wanted the words of
the Bible to sound like the "language of children playing in the
streets". The essay went on to say the High Saxon was the language
understandable--at least partially--to the greatest number of speakers
of the languages spoken in Germany.
In my opinion all this discussion of Plattdeutsch would not have
occurred amoung our grandparents. Maybe in those days it didn't
have that catch-all connotation that can range mean anywhere from
peculiar local pronunciations to a specific language. And if our
grandparents said they spoke Plattdeutsch, they probably could have
made themselves understood pretty much from the Memel to the edge
of Friesenland. As long as they didn't get above 52m NN!
I'm sure we'll discuss then again next month!
Regards,
Joel Streich
streic...@jpmorgan.com
Arthur Teschler
On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Dagmar Swihart wrote:
> Hello to all,
>
> I don't think that all parts of germany that are with mountains speak
> Hoch-Deutsch, especaly see Bayern (Baveria) it lays in the Alps and they
> don't speek Platt-Deutsch their dialect is Baverian.
Den folgenden Text habe ich auf einem ungarischen(!) Server gefunden.
Vielleicht bringt es etwas Licht in die Verwirrung, die auch bei vielen
Deutschen herrscht:
http://makosteszta.sote.hu/brddr/96-14.htm
Wovon wird das Deutsche hoch?
Von den Bergen natürlich, aber dies wissen nur die Eingeweihten. Damit
alle, die dieses Blatt lesen, sich zu den Eingeweihten zählen dürfen,
möchten wir das Hohe am Deutschen etwas näher erläutern. Erstens ist
erklärungsbedürftig, daß das Wort Hochdeutsch an und für sich zweierlei
Bedeutungen besitzt; eine umgangssprachliche und eine wissenschaftliche.
Was die umgangssprachliche Bedeutung betrifft, ist Hochdeutsch die
Sprachform, die Deutsch lernenden Ausländern auf Kassetten zwecks
Ausspracheschulung in die Ohren gedonnert vermittelt wird. Mit
Kassettendeutsch und Nachrichtenphonetik im Ohr traut sich dann mancher
Nichtgermane nichtsahnend ins Sprachland, wo er überhaupt nichts (noch
nicht einmal Bahnhof) verstehen wird. Spätestens dort wird er begreifen,
was die Leute vom Fach auch am Schreibtisch wissen und vom Katheder
verkünden, nämlich daß das Hochdeutsche eine Abstraktion ist. Sie nennen
es statt Hochdeutsch auch lieber Schrift- oder Standardsprache, denn
Hochdeutsch bedeutet eigentlich die Gesamtheit derjenigen Dialekte, die
die sogenannte zweite Lautverschiebung mitgemacht haben (keine Angst, es
wird alles erklärt!).
Auch oberflächlich Gesinnten wird schon aufgefallen sein, daß bestimmten
englischen (niederländischen, schwedischen, isländischen, usw.) Lauten
bestimmte deutsche Laute entsprechen; ten=zehn, twenty=zwanzig;
make=machen, pepper=pfeffer und viele andere. Die Laute z, ch, pf
entstanden aus den urgermanischen Lauten t, k, p, jedoch nicht in allen
mit dem Deutschen verwandten Sprachen, sondern nur in den Dialekten, die
südlich der Achse Düsseldorf- Frankfurt/Oder gesprochen werden. Unsere
Leser wissen, daß z.B. in Berlin nach wie vor ick(e) gesagt wird, was ein
Beleg dafür ist, daß das k nicht zu ch verschoben wurde. Als Jacob Grimm
diese Phänomene anfang des 19. Jahrhunderts zwischen Rotkäppchen und
Schneewittchen als Ablenkung wissenschaftlich untersuchte, mußte er - wie
es in solchen Fällen nun mal gewöhnlich ist - den Sachen auch
entsprechende Namen geben. Da in der Zeit noch nicht herumhüpfende
amerikanische Gangs das Non plus ultra der Kultur darstellten, konnte man
noch einheimische Fachausdrücke ersinnen, und für Grimm lag es auf der
Hand, daß die geographischen Gegebenheiten der Dialektgebiete den besten
Terminus für seine Zwecke liefern würden. Also nannte er die Dialekte, die
auf erhöhtem Gebiet (in Süd- und Mitteldeutschland) liegen, hochdeutsch
und diejenigen, die sich auf platter Fläche erstrecken dagegen
niederdeutsch. So wurde Hochdeutsch ein sprachgeographischer Begriff.
Jetzt fragt man sich aber, wieso ausgerechnet die andere Bedeutung des
Wortes eine Karriere machte? Die Antwort liegt in der
Entstehungsgeschichte der deutschen Schriftsprache, die es ungefähr seit
dem 17. Jahrhundert gibt. Das Wesen der Schriftsprache liegt in ihrer
Überregionalität, d.h. daß sie von allen Deutsch sprechenden natürlichen
Personen zumindest verstanden wird. Mit dem aktiven Sprechen ist es schon
komplizierter, da nicht alle Sprecher überregional kommunizieren wollen.
Die aktiv beherrschte Schriftsprache wird dadurch zu einer Frage der
Bildung.
Im Gegensatz zum Englischen, Französischen oder Spanischen konnte in
Deutschland kein bestimmter Dialekt zur überregionalen Sprachform werden,
da Deutschland mit ein paar hundert Staaten etwas zersplittert war, was
eine Prestigeregion mit einem König und allem drum und dran nicht
entstehen ließ. Mal thronte der Kaiser in Aachen, mal in Prag oder Wien,
auf jeden Fall in verschiedenen Dialektgebieten. Im nicht besonders
mobilen Mittelalter war eine überregionale Kommunikation nur für wenige
notwendig, und die konnten eh Latein. Wozu also eine für alle
verständliche Sprache?
Wie dem auch sei, im Spätmittelalter wächst das Bedürfnis an der
Nationalsprache und das nicht nur im Heiligen Römischen Reiche. Immerhin
wird der Buchdruck von einem gewissen Gensfleisch, genannt Gutenberg,
erfunden und es wird mehr gelesen und geschrieben. Analphabetismus zahlt
sich immer weniger aus (im Gegensatz zu heute, wo man langsam gezwungen
wird, schreib- und leseunfähige als Vertreter einer hyperentwickelten
Hochkultur anzuerkennen), und der Mensch wird gleichzeitig fauler, Latein
zu lernen. Mit der deutschen Bibel von Luther ist es getan, der Mensch muß
einfach lesen können. Der deutsche Mensch liest also und entdeckt langsam,
daß er nicht alles Deutsche versteht. Die verschiedenen Dialekte wirken
sich etwas störend aus, und auch die Buchdrucker sind nicht hocherfreut
darüber, daß die Bücher aus sprachlichen Gründen nicht überall
verständlich, also verkaufbar sind. Im 17. Jahrhundert sorgen sogenannte
Grammatiker, Wörterbuchschreiber und andere normbewußte Personen dafür,
daß in der Schrift eine sogenannte Ausgleichssprache entsteht, die alle
lesen können. Diese überregionale Sprache entsteht aus süd- und
mitteldeutschen, also hochdeutschen Elementen und wird den Norddeutschen
teilweise mit Gewalt aufgezwungen, die die Sprache von der geschriebenen
Form her lernen müssen und daher für Nichtdeutsche viel verständlicher
sprechen als Mittel- und Südgermanen.
An diesem Punkt sehen wir die Verknüpfung beider Bedeutungen des Wortes
Hochdeutsch. Aus dem geographisch motivierten Ausdruck entsteht ein
stilistischer Begriff, in dem sowohl der konkreten als auch der
übertragenen Bedeutung von hoch Rechnung getragen wird.
Korencsy Ottó
HAgena1401
But it is as a differentiation from High German!
Platt ? Flat.
And don´t the people at the German borde not speak Platt? I heard them so on both sides of this border. The Netherlands some times were part of the German Reich, or not ? And the Frisians and Old English spoke nearly the same language.
Dagmar Swihart
Hallo Arthur,
viellen dank fuer die Aufklaerung, ich fand es sehr interesant.
Dagmar Swihart (von Hacht)
Nattylyn
I am looking for origins of the Dierdorf or Deirdorff family.
Anneke5607
I think you are all wrong. Platt is spoken on TV and also taught in the
school of Schleswig- Holstein. Also Webster's dictionary has it designated
as an official language and not a dialect.
Anneke E.
DScheidt1
>And why the people in Hannover are speaking "Hochdeutsch"????
>
>Are 52 m the Highlands of Germany ??? :-) =
>
One of the things NOT taught in German schools is the reason
that Hannover is considered "Hochdeutsch".
When the scholars of Oxford asked their new King what
language he spoke, he said he spoke Hannoverisch Platt.
Well, they went and looked it up in the dictionaries and
discovered their new King spoke "Low" German. This could
not be. So the scholars renamed it High German, because
a King could only speak HIGH, being that England was such
a Class society.
And since Germany lost two wars, and particularly the 2nd,
their educational system was "influenced" by the Brits.
Thank you, very much.
Dave Scheid
DScheidt1
>Isn't it about time for this round of Hoch-Deutsch/Platt-Deutsch >to end.
This is a frequently occurring thread that never really >puts the debate
to rest.
>
>It is partly a matter of semantics - language - dialect - there seem >to
be differing ideas as to the meaning of these words in spite of
>dictionaries.
Actually, the problem revolves around the teaching since WWII in German
middle and high schools. Germanic linguistics
is fairly consistent in typology of the language types found.
Low = lowlands (synonym = Platt = Nieder). Middle (Mittel) is
middle and High (Ober) is Alpine region. The Brits confused
everything when George of Hannover was made King of
England and declared he spoke low german. The Brits in
their high dungeon, declared a British King could not speak
a low dialect, and declared it High German. This bastardization
has moved into the telecommunications field (radio/tv; etc) and
they reiterate their presentation is Hochdeutch rather than
Standard German.
Standard German is the most common version where the
letters are pronouced pretty much as written, with a few
exceptions, being -eig = eich; as in Braunschweich, Hamburch.
Also found is the southern emphasis of eig = eik; as in
Braunschweik or Hamburk.
Comments on the primary source for the tonal inflection
(tonfall) I will set aside and leave to others, however, the
inflection (lilt) is of importance in placing a german language/dialect
type.
Dave Scheid
Bernd Babisch
Hi Anneke,
I think you should look into a history book to see that you are totaly
wrong.
The Plattdeutsch language was in the middle age the language of the trader of
the Hanse-Federation. It was that time a world language!! - Every body in the
whole north Europe could understand that time the traders, even in Great
Britain. In the languguage of the Netherlands you can see also today the very
near relationship to the old Plattdeutsch language!
But it is right, that the Plattdeutsch language has a lot of dialects. The
dialect in Hamburg is another as in Schleswig-Holstein and the Platt of
Mecklenburg has also some difference parts to the Platt which is spoken in
and around Bremen.
You must make a strong difference between a dialect and a language!!!
A dialect is the differnce in a language! - You can hear the difference also
in the todays Hochdeutsch language: I do speak the "Kieleer dialect".
We do speak two "ee" in the last syllable of a word, as well as there is
written only one "e" and the Hamburger do speak the "st" in a special wise.
We say: "Der Hamburger stolpert ueber einen spitzen Stein!", because he does
stress the "st" in the words!! -
In the same wise has the Mittelhochdeutsch and the Oberdeutsch or Hochdeutsch
language her dialects.
And finaly has also the Plattdeutsch language her dialects.
regards Bernd
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Bernd Babisch * b...@smooth.netzservice.de * Phone: +49-431-129211 |
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