Surnames ending in -berg
Tammy L. Parker
I hava Question:
Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
"burg" does it mean that that name IS Jewish. Can it go both ways. My
family has alway been knee deap in the Lutheran Church, when people
automatically inform me of the fact that my name is a JEWISH name, it kind
of bothers me. It isn't that I have anything against being Jewish, A third
of my cousins are. It's just that we aren't. And it gets kind of frustrating
having someone with Barbra Walter's stature stating that Goldberg IS a
JEWISH name, she didn't even say it was a predominatly jewish name. My mom
told me to forget it but I thought I'd give this a try.
thanks,
Tammy
Mary Ann Allen
"Tammy L. Parker" <park...@fredonia.edu> wrote:
>I hava Question:
>Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
>"burg" does it mean that that name IS Jewish.
Hello Tammy,
It could be that Jewish people converted to Christianity (and
vice-versa, of course). If "berg" names are basically Jewish names
(and I don't know that they always are), conversion could account for
your Goldberg name being Lutheran.
Mary Ann Allen
Ernest Thode
"Tammy L. Parker" (park...@fredonia.edu) writes:
> I hava Question:
> Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
> "burg" does it mean that that name IS Jewish. Can it go both ways. My
> family has alway been knee deap in the Lutheran Church, when people
> automatically inform me of the fact that my name is a JEWISH name, it kind
> of bothers me. It isn't that I have anything against being Jewish, A third
> of my cousins are. It's just that we aren't. And it gets kind of frustrating
> having someone with Barbra Walter's stature stating that Goldberg IS a
> JEWISH name, she didn't even say it was a predominatly jewish name. My mom
> told me to forget it but I thought I'd give this a try.
One of the frequent posters on the genealogy lists has said many times,
"Names aren't Jewish; people are."
The only names that I would say are Jewish names are LEVY and COHEN, which
I believe are rabinnical names that come from having rabbis in the family.
-BERG means "mountain." -BURG means "fort." What is Jewish about either
a mountain or a fort?
Ernest THODE
--
Ernest Thode, Washington County Public Library,
Marietta, OH 45750-1973
bs...@freenet.carleton.ca
Celia E. Mitschelen
Berg and Burg are two different words in German.
Berg is a mountain/hill
Burg is a cstle/citadel/stronghold
They are not a dividing line between being Jewish or German. That is a
matter of religeon.
Celia
In <64s83n$e...@camel15.mindspring.com> wal...@pipeline.com (Mary Ann
Allen) writes:
>
>"Tammy L. Parker" <park...@fredonia.edu> wrote:
>
>>I hava Question:
>>Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and
not
>>"burg" does it mean that that name IS Jewish.
>
W. Fred Rump
"Tammy L. Parker" <park...@fredonia.edu> wrote:
>I hava Question:
>Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
>"burg" does it mean that that name IS Jewish. Can it go both ways. My
>family has alway been knee deap in the Lutheran Church, when people
>automatically inform me of the fact that my name is a JEWISH name, it kind
>of bothers me. It isn't that I have anything against being Jewish, A third
>of my cousins are. It's just that we aren't. And it gets kind of frustrating
>having someone with Barbra Walter's stature stating that Goldberg IS a
>JEWISH name, she didn't even say it was a predominatly jewish name. My mom
>told me to forget it but I thought I'd give this a try.
Your mom is correct. Barbara wawa is simply mouthing a general
assumption. Many people named Goldberg are of the Jewish faith. This
by no means means that all Goldbergs are Jewish. Didn't I have this in
Philosophy 101 (logic) under 'square of opposition'? I think so. :-)
Fred
W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
Brad Euhus
>"Tammy L. Parker" <park...@fredonia.edu> wrote:
>
>I hava Question:
>Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
People think that names like GOLDBERG are Jewish not because
they end in -burg or -berg but because they contain a precious
metal as part of the name. It seems to me that most of the
Silvermann's, Silbermann's, Goldmanns, etc.. I know are Jewish!
There probably is a theory for this.
What religion are the Platinumbergs? 8^)
Regards,
Brad Euhus
Wheaton, IL
Siegfried Rambaum
> > Just because a person's last name such as Goldberg ends in "berg" and not
> > family has alway been knee deap in the Lutheran Church, when people
> > automatically inform me of the fact that my name is a JEWISH name, it kind
> > of bothers me. It isn't that I have anything against being Jewish, A third
> > of my cousins are. It's just that we aren't. And it gets kind of frustrating
> > having someone with Barbra Walter's stature stating that Goldberg IS a
> > JEWISH name, she didn't even say it was a predominatly jewish name. My mom
> > told me to forget it but I thought I'd give this a try.
>
> "Names aren't Jewish; people are."
>
> The only names that I would say are Jewish names are LEVY and COHEN, which
> I believe are rabinnical names that come from having rabbis in the family.
And even those are NOT. Cohen has German origins, Levy has Slavic origins.
No way, the animal of Jewish Surnames are a fiction only.
Carsten Läkamp
On 18 Nov 1997 21:08:44 GMT, b...@ihgp82x.ih.lucent.com (Brad Euhus)
wrote in message <64t04s$c...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>:
>People think that names like GOLDBERG are Jewish not because
>they end in -burg or -berg but because they contain a precious
>metal as part of the name. It seems to me that most of the
>Silvermann's, Silbermann's, Goldmanns, etc.. I know are Jewish!
>There probably is a theory for this.
And there too, you can find counter-examples !
The Silbermann organ-builders were Lutherans !
Since this discussion seems to be going on forever, my own
contribution: are all black Americans with Arabic-sounding names
Muslims ? :-)
Carsten Läkamp
Strasbourg, Alsace, France, EU
e-mail: clae...@club-internet.fr
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
Carsten Läkamp (clae...@club-internet.fr) wrote:
: On 18 Nov 1997 21:08:44 GMT, b...@ihgp82x.ih.lucent.com (Brad Euhus)
: wrote in message <64t04s$c...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>:
: >People think that names like GOLDBERG are Jewish not because
: >they end in -burg or -berg but because they contain a precious
: >metal as part of the name. It seems to me that most of the
: >Silvermann's, Silbermann's, Goldmanns, etc.. I know are Jewish!
: >There probably is a theory for this.
There are a couple possible explanations for "Jewish" surnames. One is
similar to the "founder effect." If Ashkenzic communities were relatively
small compared to the population as a whole when surnames were adopted (I
think Jews tended to be using them before they caught on elsewhere too),
then those particular surnames would continue to have a highly enhanced
frequency among Jews today.
The other explanation of course is that certain surnames were preferred by
Jews. I think the real situation is a combination of those two factors.
Certainly "Cohen" and "Levy" (which is certainly _not_ of Slavic origin -
ever hear of Judah ha-Levi?) were peculiarly Jewish. I have heard
speculations that the high frequency of, for example, Gold- and Silber-
compounds may reflect preferred professions of Medieval Jews, particulary
money lending and the working of precious metals. It's easy to see that a
correlation of locations or professions to Jewishness could lead to the
enhancement of the frequency of surnames reflecting those locations or
professions. Such surnames wouldn't necessarily be Jewish only, but they
would be far more common among Jews than among the whole population. I
don't know how "-berg", "-stein", "-farb" would fit into the latter
explanation though. It's possible "-farb" is related to Medieval
regulations on the colors of Jewish clothing, but that's just a guess.
: And there too, you can find counter-examples !
: The Silbermann organ-builders were Lutherans !
: Since this discussion seems to be going on forever, my own
: contribution: are all black Americans with Arabic-sounding names
: Muslims ? :-)
Not all, but I think the majority are. That's typically why they adopted
or were given Arabic names. Certainly almost all with Arabic surnames are
Muslims. It can go either way with first names.
Ben Buckner
Alan Weiner
Hello.
Siegfried Rambaum wrote:
> > Ernest Thode wrote:
> > One of the frequent posters on the genealogy lists has said many times,
> > "Names aren't Jewish; people are."
> >
> > The only names that I would say are Jewish names are LEVY and COHEN, which
> > I believe are rabinnical names that come from having rabbis in the family.
>
> And even those are NOT. Cohen has German origins, Levy has Slavic origins.
> No way, the animal of Jewish Surnames are a fiction only.
Also, it is not even necessary to go that far for Levi. If
I remember correctly, I think that Alexander Beider says in his book
"A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Russian Empire" that there
are Christian Germans named Levi whose name is based on a diminutive
of the name Loeb.
Sincerely yours,
Alan Weiner
Alan Weiner
Hello.
Ben Buckner wrote:
> There are a couple possible explanations for "Jewish" surnames. One is
> similar to the "founder effect." If Ashkenzic communities were relatively
> small compared to the population as a whole when surnames were adopted (I
> think Jews tended to be using them before they caught on elsewhere too),
> then those particular surnames would continue to have a highly enhanced
> frequency among Jews today.
Since the majority of European Jews tended not to take surnames
until they were required by law, European Christians tended to use
surnames much earlier than European Jews. There are two very common
sources of surnames for both Christians and Jews: places, such as
Hamburger and Berliner, and occupations, such as Weiner ;) and
Schneider. It's not a big deal.
If you're interested in this subject, one place that has
information on similarities between Jewish surnames and Christian
German surnames is the book "A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the
Russian Empire" by Alexander Beider. I think it's also in his book
"A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Kingdom of Poland."
Sincerely yours,
Alan Weiner
Dr. Willi Wiesner
> > Ernest Thode wrote:
> > The only names that I would say are Jewish names are LEVY and COHEN, which
> > I believe are rabinnical names that come from having rabbis in the family.
> > And even those are NOT. Cohen has German origins, Levy has Slavic origins.
> > No way, the animal of Jewish Surnames are a fiction only.
Alan Weiner replied
> Also, it is not even necessary to go that far for Levi. If
> I remember correctly, I think that Alexander Beider says in his book
> "A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Russian Empire" that there
> are Christian Germans named Levi whose name is based on a diminutive
> of the name Loeb.
I don't know about the origins of Cohen, but Levi is listed in Genesis as
one of Jacob's sons and thus became the name of one of the twelve
tribes of Israel. The descendants of Levi became the priests of
Israel (or Levites). Levi or Levy is clearly a Jewish name (or, to be
more precise, a Hebrew name). The fact that some Christians carried or
carry the name Levy simply reflects the fact that it was and still is
common practice for Christians to adopt biblical names, including
those originating in the Old Testament.
Caroline Price
Was NOAH a JEW?
Caroline Price
----------
% From: Dr. Willi Wiesner <wie...@FACBUS.BUSINESS.MCMASTER.CA>
% To: gen-...@rootsweb.com
% Subject: Surnames ending in -berg
% Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 1:32 PM
%
%
% > > Ernest Thode wrote:
%
% > > The only names that I would say are Jewish names are LEVY and COHEN,
which
% > > I believe are rabinnical names that come from having rabbis in the
family.
%
% > > And even those are NOT. Cohen has German origins, Levy has Slavic
origins.
% > > No way, the animal of Jewish Surnames are a fiction only.
%
% Alan Weiner replied
%
% > Also, it is not even necessary to go that far for Levi. If
% > I remember correctly, I think that Alexander Beider says in his book
% > "A Dictionary of Jewish Surnames from the Russian Empire" that there
% > are Christian Germans named Levi whose name is based on a diminutive
% > of the name Loeb.
%
%
% I don't know about the origins of Cohen, but Levi is listed in Genesis as
% one of Jacob's sons and thus became the name of one of the twelve
% tribes of Israel. The descendants of Levi became the priests of
% Israel (or Levites). Levi or Levy is clearly a Jewish name (or, to be
% more precise, a Hebrew name). The fact that some Christians carried or
% carry the name Levy simply reflects the fact that it was and still is
% common practice for Christians to adopt biblical names, including
% those originating in the Old Testament.
%
Caroline Price
I did not understand why it was so important as to whether or not these
families were or were not Jewish. I felt an aire of resentment from one of
the responses and felt that if Noah were Jewish, then the person who was
proud to be Jewish could remain so, even if the offending statement were
fact.
If in fact surnames ending in -berg were not Jewish, why were they included
in the Halocaust? If your ancestors suffered during it, wouldn't it offend
you or muster some anger at the thought that they suffered for what they
were not.
Caroline
Ber Hommelberg
Caroline Price wrote in message
<1997121107...@endeavor.flash.net>...
>If in fact surnames ending in -berg were not Jewish, why were they included
>in the Halocaust?
My surname is and was during WOII ending in -berg, but never included in the
Halocaust.
Ber Hommelberg
W. Fred Rump
"Caroline Price" <caro...@flash.net> wrote:
>I did not understand why it was so important as to whether or not these
>families were or were not Jewish. I felt an aire of resentment from one of
>the responses and felt that if Noah were Jewish, then the person who was
>proud to be Jewish could remain so, even if the offending statement were
>fact.
Isn't this getting a little silly? The story of the flood is not
unique to the Jews and occurs in most ancient allegories which attempt
to answer some of humanity's questions as to why and how they came to
be. The ancient Jews wondered these same questions and wrote up their
own version of these events. To make Noah into a real person would
stretch genealogy into fiction and that is not what it is.
>If in fact surnames ending in -berg were not Jewish, why were they included
>in the Halocaust? If your ancestors suffered during it, wouldn't it offend
>you or muster some anger at the thought that they suffered for what they
>were not.
The point has been made here repeatedly that names do not make for
religious affiliation. The chief propagandist for NAZI ideology was a
man named Rosenberg. If anything he was a proponent of the Holocaust
and not a victim of it. The victims included hundreds of thousands of
people who were not Jewish but, as such and regardless of name, were
deemed to be enemies of the state.
Last week's 60 Minutes tried to explain why even babies and orphaned
children (who looked Japanese) were called Japs and had to be
collected and sent to concentration camps of American manufacture.
Luckily Americans of German descent could not so readily be identyfied
or we might have had much larger concentration camps of our own. Add
to this mix a dictatorial government where the supreme court could be
packed to suit one's fancy, as Roosevelt wanted to do, and there is no
telling what might have happened in our own little society. It's a
scary thought when one reads Secretary of the Treasury Morgenthau's
plans for a German genocide. We can be glad that enough sane people
were around to stop that business and that Truman came along to fire
Morgenthau's for his attempts to be a policy making ex-officio
secretary of state.
If history teaches us anything, it is that no people are uniquely holy
or bad but rather that particular circumstances can and do bring out
the worst or the best among any people. It all depends on who's in
charge up top. The "fact" that our good and holy government permitted
the ethnic cleansing of 12 to 16 million people from their ancestral
homes and that 2 to 3 million were allowed to die in that expulsion
process should be enough food for thought for anyone who sees the
holocaust as something unique to the bad people of mankind or
something. Innocent people who die as the result of the decisions of
others are always victims no matter what we choose to call the process
of elimination. Our best buddy at the time was Joseph Stalin who had
already murdered 20 million of his own people without asking their
names. Did we really care what religion these people were?