Edan Lutheran Kerk mit German communicants

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

I have recently found many German people taking communion in the =

Lutheran Church at Edan Nord Holland. Many of these people are from =

Menslage and Badbergen. Can someone give me more information on what and =

where this church is located, and what kind of work might have attracted =

them to this area in 1710. The FHC LDS microfilm number is 0475376 and =

very difficult to read. Some of the names that come to mind are Lammers, =

W=FFnoohst, Knoeten, Boleding, and Punp. I am sure they are not spelled =

correctly as I do not find these names spelled as such in the Menslage =

Church books, but simular. There appears to also be many names from =

Osnabr=FCck and Hamburg as well.

Thanks Charles Hofmann living in Tucson, Arizona
-- =

Researching names - Harding and Rowe(Wexford County Ire) in Kentucky, =

Haas and Oelschlegel in New Orleans, and Bavaria, Linnemann or Lindemann =

in Hannover Germany, Hasenwinkel and Grupin near Magdeburg Germany, =

Bekebrede, Schumacher, and Esselmann in Nord Holland and West Hannover =

areas. Try our Hofmann Family Home Page, there are many more names =

there and some good links to other research aids.
<http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html>

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

I am aware of the Hollandg=E4ngers, but as I have traced other of my =

ancestors to other locations in Holland who remained there, and in some =

cases came from Holland to Germany, I have been trying to find =

substantive work or companies in the actual cities they worked in. In =

the church books From Osnabr=FCck to Essen to Choppenburg your find many =

references to these early migrations including marriages, deaths, and =

deaths in Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed church records. This is the =

1st time I have actually looked at Communion records and given the time =

of the year from June to September that these occured, it would seem =

somewhat inconsistant with the traditional Hollandg=E4nger to me?

Charles Hofmann aus Tucson, Arizona
-- =

Researching names - Harding and Rowe in Kentucky, Haas and Oelschlegel =

in New Orleans, and Bavaria, Linnemann or Lindemann in Hannover Germany, =

Hasenwinkel and Grupin near Magdeburg Germany, Bekebrede, Schumacher, =

and Esselmann in Nord Holland and West Hannover areas. Try our Hofmann =

Family Home Page, there are many more names there and some good links to =

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>I have recently found many German people taking communion in the

>Lutheran Church at Edan Nord Holland. Many of these people are from

>Menslage and Badbergen. Can someone give me more information on what and

>where this church is located, and what kind of work might have attracted

>them to this area in 1710. The FHC LDS microfilm number is 0475376 and

>very difficult to read. Some of the names that come to mind are Lammers,

>Wÿnoohst, Knoeten, Boleding, and Punp. I am sure they are not spelled

>correctly as I do not find these names spelled as such in the Menslage

>Church books, but simular. There appears to also be many names from

>Osnabrück and Hamburg as well.
>

You're probably dealing with EDAM instead. Check just north of
Amsterdam along the coastline in North Holland. As this is the area of
Edammer Cheese fame you can imagine what these folks were doing there
back in the 18th century. In the winter the dairy stock had to be fed
and the Heuerleute known as the Hollandgaenger went on their annual
trecks to make a few Pfennigs mowing and drying the hay. They also
worked loading ships or anything else they could earn something on.
Women went too.

How in the world did you run into these Dutch records?

Fred

W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred

[Edwin C. Friedrich]

Do you have a connection to the Linnemann family of the 1800's in
northern Illinois? I have been corresponding with some members of this
family.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Fred Rump wrote:

>What's wrong with June to September? That's a great time to bring in
>the hay and help with other farming duties. In all the literature I've
>read about the people who left their homes in the Oldenburg/Osnabr=FCck
>areas to earn some income, most went to Holland to work either on
>vast majority went to Holland year after year, generation after
>generation. Some wound up staying there and many Dutch people have
>German ancestry from this time period. Platt and Dutch was practically
>the same back then. -- and today as well --
The time of absence was usually 3 to 4 months.
>Typically the RC Germans went to work in Catholic areas of the
>Netherlands and the Protestants worked for the Protestants. Both had
>to work extremely hard and earned next to nothing for their labor.
>Many died especially among those who worked at digging peat.

>I don't think there is anything else to look for in these migrations
>except a chance at improving their living condition, even with all the
>risks this entailed. I think just about all of this labor was what the
>Dutch themselves did not want to do. German labor was also much
>cheaper. I doubt if many ever got to work in any of the cities either.

I can't speak for the price of labor between Dutch vs German. Actually I =

find that most of the ones I have now found in the Lutheran Kerk books =

were actual permanent transfers from Osnabr=FCck, Badbergen, and Menslage =

as well as Hamburg as early as 1686, and many appear to have professions =

and some are perhaps traders. While what you say about many "heuerman" =

and other forms of primarily farm laborers is correct, but contrary to =

some popular beliefs all Germans were not dumb and uneducated, or for =

that matter farmers or farm laborers either. Many of these farm laborers =

did die from what is most commonly refered to as "Hollandfever" in the =

death records that they did seem to catch while mining peat either there =

or on their return or for that matter even in the areas both east and =

west of Bremen in Northern Germany. =

Now to my original question, I find not one person listed as =

cheesemaker, so maybe someone would know what trading company or =

industry may have been in Edan or Edam in the 1600 and 1700s to have =

attracted so many folks to come and settle there. One of my close =

professional friends from Osnabr=FCck told me, that the reason such a =

small country as the Netherlands became so successful, was because the =

people there were willing to try anything, especially if their european =

neighbors told them it couldn't be done.

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>I am aware of the Hollandgängers, but as I have traced other of my

>ancestors to other locations in Holland who remained there, and in some

>cases came from Holland to Germany, I have been trying to find

>substantive work or companies in the actual cities they worked in. In

>the church books From Osnabrück to Essen to Choppenburg your find many

>references to these early migrations including marriages, deaths, and

>deaths in Catholic, Lutheran, and Reformed church records. This is the

>1st time I have actually looked at Communion records and given the time

>of the year from June to September that these occured, it would seem

>somewhat inconsistant with the traditional Hollandgänger to me?

What's wrong with June to September? That's a great time to bring in
the hay and help with other farming duties. In all the literature I've

read about the people who left their homes in the Oldenburg/Osnabrück

areas to earn some income, most went to Holland to work either on

farms, the peat bogs or on ships. Some went north and east but the

vast majority went to Holland year after year, generation after
generation. Some wound up staying there and many Dutch people have
German ancestry from this time period. Platt and Dutch was practically

the same back then. The time of absence was usually 3 to 4 months.

Typically the RC Germans went to work in Catholic areas of the
Netherlands and the Protestants worked for the Protestants. Both had
to work extremely hard and earned next to nothing for their labor.
Many died especially among those who worked at digging peat.

I don't think there is anything else to look for in these migrations
except a chance at improving their living condition, even with all the
risks this entailed. I think just about all of this labor was what the
Dutch themselves did not want to do. German labor was also much
cheaper. I doubt if many ever got to work in any of the cities either.

Fred

[inez]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>Fred Rump wrote:

>>What's wrong with June to September? That's a great time to bring in
>>the hay and help with other farming duties.

snip

> to earn some income, most went to Holland to work either on

>>vast majority went to Holland year after year, generation after
>>generation. Some wound up staying there and many Dutch people have
>>German ancestry from this time period. Platt and Dutch was practically

>>the same back then. -- and today as well --

>The time of absence was usually 3 to 4 months.
>>Typically the RC Germans went to work in Catholic areas of the
>>Netherlands and the Protestants worked for the Protestants.

Not true about N. Holland. Money didnot smell.

>>Many died especially among those who worked at digging peat.
>>I don't think there is anything else to look for in these migrations
>>except a chance at improving their living condition, even with all the
>>risks this entailed. I think just about all of this labor was what the
>>Dutch themselves did not want to do. German labor was also much
>>cheaper. I doubt if many ever got to work in any of the cities either.

Wrong assumption, fred. Seen the caracter of dutch international
cities/trade those times already

>I can't speak for the price of labor between Dutch vs German. Actually I =

>find that most of the ones I have now found in the Lutheran Kerk books =

>were actual permanent transfers from Osnabr=FCck, Badbergen, and Menslage =

>as well as Hamburg as early as 1686, and many appear to have professions =

>and some are perhaps traders. While what you say about many "heuerman" =

>and other forms of primarily farm laborers is correct, but contrary to =

>some popular beliefs all Germans were not dumb and uneducated, or for =

>that matter farmers or farm laborers either. Many of these farm laborers =

>did die from what is most commonly refered to as "Hollandfever" in the =

>death records that they did seem to catch while mining peat either there =

>or on their return or for that matter even in the areas both east and =

>west of Bremen in Northern Germany. =

>Now to my original question, I find not one person listed as =

>cheesemaker, so maybe someone would know what trading company or =

>industry may have been in Edan or Edam in the 1600 and 1700s to have =

>attracted so many folks to come and settle there. One of my close =

>professional friends from Osnabr=FCck told me, that the reason such a =

>small country as the Netherlands became so successful, was because the =

>people there were willing to try anything, especially if their european =

>neighbors told them it couldn't be done.

>Charles Hofmann aus Tucson, Arizona

Hi charles wise friend you got there in osnabruck! Following that
(undoubtely) true caracteristic of the dutch, specially those in N.
Holland, lets proove Fred 's ideas are too simple this time ;-)
Seen the function of Edam (trading centre, access to region of the
ZAAN, as well as Haarlem and Amsterdam ) i am not willing (yet)
to believe his ideas about farm labours.
Will get in contact with the archives where these church- archives are
stored and ask their opinion. Getting curious now my self, after all
these ancestors mine came from Oldenburg as well.
Fred is right about that Platt Deutsch. Reading that loud sure is much
easier at that German they try to learn us at school. Talking about
language: what did they dig while digging peat? ??. Not in my
dictionary!
The name Lammers you seem to have read correctly, its a common
(at least N. Hollands) name.
Just give me a couple of days and I'll reply to you and Fred.
Regards from Amsterdam finally discovering spring and this dutchy
discovering therefor to take a bike and see Edam again! Thanks for
reminding
Inez Schade, amsterdam.

[inez]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>I have recently found many German people taking communion in the =
>Lutheran Church at Edan Nord Holland. Many of these people are from =
>Menslage and Badbergen. Can someone give me more information on what and =
>where this church is located, and what kind of work might have attracted =

>them to this area in 1710.

Hi again.
Edam is part of the regio WATERLAND. The archives of this region are
stored at STREEKARCHIEF WATERLAND. donot know yet if the archives of
your church are stored there as well. But do know that ARCHIVE is on
line <http://huizen.dds.nl/~archivum/
though the text is in Dutch ( how well is your platt-deutsch?) they
even have an email.
May i suggest you use it? after all we dutch do pay a lot of tax even
for our archives to function and these archives are part of the
Education Department, so........ lets find out how Netherlands are
learning to work on line ;-) . Would be pleased to hear anything about
your experience with it. In the mean time did sent your article there
already and asked them to reply to the newsgroup. Hope this be of any
assistence.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Inex Schade wrote:

Fred is right about that Platt Deutsch. Reading that loud sure is much
easier at that German they try to learn us at school. Talking about
>language: what did they dig while digging peat? ??. Not in my
>dictionary!

-- We would call it Peat Moss and was used primarily for fuel before =

coal before the invention of the machines which made it much cheaper to =

mine and break up coal as a fuel. Today we use large quantities of it in =

our gardens to improve the soil. The Deutsch word is "Torf" and the =

Dutch word is "veen". There is a museum in Bremerv=F6rde that shows how =

this was done and with what tools.----

>The name Lammers you seem to have read correctly, its a common
>(at least N. Hollands) name.
>Just give me a couple of days and I'll reply to you and Fred.
>Regards from Amsterdam finally discovering spring and this dutchy
>discovering therefor to take a bike and see Edam again! Thanks for
>reminding

>Inez Schade, amsterdam.Here are some of the names and information that I r=
ecorded, I know all =

the words are not spelled correctly for sure as my Dutch is not very =

good, but am trying to learn as I seem to have many ancestors who went =

there to live. Most of these names are in my family tree from the =

Menslage and Osnabr=FCck area, of cource the spelling varies a little.

Edam Lutheran Kerk archief
Film 0475376 1686 bis 1943 Edam Holland

Verbrugge, Ariann aus Menslage October 1723 communion
Esselman, Arent von Menslage July 11, 1727 communion
Pruge, Jurgen van Menslage March 22, 1730 communion
Holmer, Jan van Barberge 7 March 1733
Lubbers, Jurgen van Dalmerhorst 7 March 1733
Middendorf, Harmen van Badbergen 29 June, 1733
Verbrugge, Adriaan van Menslage mit Lysbeth Gerdes van Fannix Huwelijk =

27 April 1732
Verbrugge, Araantje gedopen February 7, 1732 from Adrian und Lysbeth =

beg. Gredes Verbrugge
Verbrugge, Gerrit gedopen February 21, 1733 Adriaan und Lysbeth zijn =

ouders
Esselman Hendrich gedopen 24 November 1736 von Zoon, ouders zijn Arent =

Esselman en Guurtje
Schippers, Peet Margetje K"hlers van Zoon
Verbrugge, Catryntje gedopen April 7, 1742 Vader Ariaan (Adriaan) =

Verbrugge en Moeder Teuntje Dirks =

Peet Grietje Oeymanns van Dochter
Esselman, Gaertje gedopen 27 October 1743 V =3D Arendt Esselmann M =3D na d=
e =

floffing Schielyt gestorren
Peet Catryntje K"hlers allen van Dochten
Verburg, Antoni gedopen January 26, 1744 V =3D Ariann Verburg M =3D Annetje=
, =

Peet Griethe Ooymans
Esselman, Hermanns gedopen 4 October 1750 V =3D Arendt Esselman M =3D =

Johanna Agricola Getruyge Anna
Kloohterman allen van Dogter ..... Next son Christian gedopen =

31 October 1751, Peet Annetye
Pleen allen van Zoon...... Next son Marcus 19 December 1752
Rincke, Adrian gedopen 12 November 1752 V =3D Elias Rincke M =3D Anna =

Margaretha Niehaus
peit. Femmetje Chienwhuys allen van Zoon
Esselman, Arent "Weduwenaan met Johanna Agricola "Jonje" Dochter 21 =

December 1749 Huwelijk =

Esselman, Arent, "Wed." mit Anna Maria Benedickes van Bremen July 10, =

1756 Huwelijk
Oo=98mans, Margrietye van Badbergen communicaten 31Maarz, 1736
Landers, Herman van, van Badbergen communicaten 26 Juli 1736
Otman, H. van Badbergen communicaten 23 October, 1739
Kreuger, Jan van Badbergen communicaten 20 Maart 1742
W=98noogst, Gerrit Harmenhs van Menslage 16 December 1744 communicaten
Kernkammp, Dirk Janse van Menslage 16 December 1744 communicaten
Lameyer, Hend. Van Bramske in Osnabrugse, Hannoverse 14 December 1749 =

com.
Niehaus, Themmetje van F=81rstenau in der Osnabrugse 15 Maart 1750 =

aangenomen communianten.
Herman, Diderich van der Heide van Badbergen 22 Dec. 1750 Communicanten.
M"lman, Herman Jurge ban Bramcke by Osnabrug 15 Dec. 1751 Com.
Haakman, Jan V =3D Henrich Haakman inlau, M =3D Tryntje Anelutt 21 Dec. 175=
1 =

van Zoom Peit. Antje Pleen
Haakman, R=81sje V =3D Henich, M =3D Tryntje Mel=81ck 21 April 1754 van der=
=

Dreiburgs, getrugge Antje Pleen
Haakman, Aaltje, Hendrik en Tryntje nee Molut Haakman Jan. 1, 1762 =

getugge, Anna Maria Esselman
Wynosgst, Anna, Gerrit Wynosgst en Helena Adelhtye Rolfes 16 Sept. 1763, =

get. Anna Maria Esselman
Harnende, Harne van Menschlage 9 Juli, 1700 Communinicant.
26 September 1710 - Barent Boerding van Bathberge, Maarte W=98noohst, Jan =

Kroese, en Barent Paap allen
van Menschlage Communicante.
7 April 1719, Juriaan Depkin et Maria Oldenhage van Menslage en Juli 7, =

1710 Manetje Roelofs van
Menschlage Communicante.
9 December, 1723 Adriaan Verbrugge van Menslage Com.
22 December, 1729 J=81rgen Br=81ge van Menschlage Com.
22 December, 1733 Gerrit Hendr. Oo=98man van Badbergen Com.
31 Maart 1736 Margretje Oo=98man van Badbergen Com =

26 September 1736, Harmen van Sander van Badbergen Communicante
23 October, 1739 Hendr. Otman van Badbergen Com.
15 September, 1741 Harne Wonters van Menschlegen Com.
22 Maart, 1742 Jan Kre=81ger van Badberge Com.
16 December, 1744 Lirk or Dirk Jante Kernkamp von Menschlagen Com.
15 December, 1752 Herman J=81rgen M"lman van Branscke Com.
19 December, 1759 Helena Adelheit Rolfes van Menslage Com.
5 April 1773 Christian Esselman und Adriaan Kurik b=98de van Edam. Com.
"interesting note - Anno 1784 Januarius den 18, Johann Henrich Usheler =

geboosen te Rabenby Barkhasuen op Mustitier van J. M. Buck Pastor te =

Barkhausen."
16 December, 1789 Herman Gerde Meese van Menslage in Osnabrugse op =

attestatie van De. =

G.W.Gerding. Com.
Bekebrede Dem 3 Juni 1807 Grietye Bekebrede met allestatie van D. J Hoop =

te Purmerinde Com.
1848, 24 Juni op attestatic van Georg Funke ev. Luth for te Menslage als =

aldaar 17 April 1836 kerkel=98k
berestigt (geb. 26 Oct 1821) Herman Gerhard Heinrich Tobias =

Kernkamp, 24 Juni, 1848 , Konigrich =

Hanover.
1860, op attestatic van D. A. Euslach pedigt te Menslage d.d. 22 Mai =

1860 als in der Luth. Gennant
alder te kgn bevertige geworden des 3 dem April 1842 Johann =

Heinrich Kernkamp in als alten te
Kgn. Beertige gemeind der 23 April 1854 Anna Henriette Wilhelmina =

Kernkamp

Harmenze, Harmen van Menslagene in't Osnabr=81g Communicanten den 30 j=81n=98=
=

1700
Gerritz, Fre=98n van Menslag u=98t het Sticht Osnabr=81ggen den 19 April 17=
07 =

heejt haare bel=98deng dedann

1860, 17 Januar=98 geboren, gedoopt 4 Maart Carel Pieter Willem Jacob, =

Vader: Aeilt Arend Bendeker,
Moeder: Justina Margaretha Engelbert van Bevervoorde.

Bekebrede, Klaas geb 29 Maart 1901 Vader: Gerrit Bekebrede(N.M.) Moeder: =

Cornelia Margaretha
Beek gedoopt 23 Juni 1901 von D. van Bakel

Esselman, Arendt met Johanna Agricola December 25, 1749
Woest, Jan Wedut. Van Menslagen mit Johann Christina Reinmolten Wed. van =

Slits u=98t t. Graatschop Kerks
Wesselman, Harmanus van Badburgen J.M. in de Reformerte Kerk getrouwt =

met Maarytje Schoof.
16 November 1783
Miese, Gerrit van Menslage mit Osnabrugse Maaretje Pieters Bost van Edan =

30 October 1790
Esselman, Arend 7 December 1775 gestorvene van de Lutherte gemeente Edam

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Fred Rump wrote:
>And they came for the money and sometimes were accepted by the family
>they worked for to stay. At other times they simply had to stay and
>get married. I don't think they had shotguns back then but I guess a
>pitchfork would do in a pinch. :-)

Good theory, but it seems that wedding either just before or soon after =

the birth of a child were more common in Germany than in Holland from =

what I see in my research. The marriages I have recorded happened enough =

time before the birth of the 1st child, that they were not forced. =

Actually I think if you read the history of the area in Germany, you =

will find that because of the rules of geting permission contributed to =

this so called shotgun weddings in Germany, which did not seem to be the =

case in Holland. I have seen letters written back to Germany from my =

ancestors who settled in New Orleans, who told their kind to come to =

America where everything was free, and you didn't have to get permission =

to marry the girl you wanted to.

You will also find whole families immigrated to Holland along with their =

children, so it would not be fair to make a statement that they only =

stayed when they found someone to marry or had to marry because a child =

was on the way. Since most of my ancestors were Lutheran or Reformed, I =

can not speak for the Catholic area or rules that the church may have =

imposed.

>Seems like it was Inez whose Schade ancestors came from
>Essen/Oldenburg and who went to Holland and got stuck. I had pointed
>him to the ancient Schade farm name there quite some time ago. My
>grandparents lived on Menslage land right next to Schade land. Both go
>back further than written records can indicate. And the families are
>still there and today rather wealthy from all this land.

Hermann Walter Polhsander put together the "Hofgeschichten, ca =

1400-1870" for many of the farms in the area of Menslage, Quakenbr=FCck, =

and Bersenbr=FCck. If you have not reviewed these, they can be obtained at =

your local FHC. These are on microfiche, and our center charges 15 =

cents each and keeps them permantantly here. Some very interesting =

reading for sure in many of these. It was wonderful the work this =

man did to document this for everyone to enjoy. From my many discussions =

with people in the area there, family farming in Germany today is much =

like in America, and not a place to get rich for sure. =

Charles Hofmann living in Tucson, Arizona home of the NCCA national =

champion University of Arizona Wildcats.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Inex Schade wrote:

December 1749 Huwelijk =

attestatie van De. =

Kernkamp

heejt haare bel=98deng dedann

-- =

[W. Fred Rump]

law...@euronet.nl (inez) wrote:

>>>Typically the RC Germans went to work in Catholic areas of the
>>>Netherlands and the Protestants worked for the Protestants.
>Not true about N. Holland. Money didnot smell.

This is a slight supposition on my part but knowing a little about the
cliquishness of society back then, people travelled in groups to where
they were most welcome. While money never smells, those who pay it
hire whom they want when the labor supply is plentiful.

>>>Many died especially among those who worked at digging peat.
>>>I don't think there is anything else to look for in these migrations
>>>except a chance at improving their living condition, even with all the
>>>risks this entailed. I think just about all of this labor was what the
>>>Dutch themselves did not want to do. German labor was also much
>>>cheaper. I doubt if many ever got to work in any of the cities either.

>Wrong assumption, fred. Seen the caracter of dutch international
>cities/trade those times already

Where's the wrong assumption? Did they dig peat or cut the hay in the
cities? The only work available to the masses of the available labor
pool in a city would have been in the harbors where the work was
loading and unloading ships. Again, the labor was plentiful and cheap.
Economies which are booming import labor and the natives become more
selective about their own part in this economy. Witness Europe today.
How many millions of foreigners work in Germany? Are they the
accountants or the trashmen?

>>I can't speak for the price of labor between Dutch vs German. Actually I =
>>find that most of the ones I have now found in the Lutheran Kerk books =
>>were actual permanent transfers from Osnabr=FCck, Badbergen, and Menslage =
>>as well as Hamburg as early as 1686, and many appear to have professions =
>>and some are perhaps traders.

There are exceptions to every rule. Do we speak about these or the
general situation? We know about the permanent transfers when we read
about the marriages and the soon to follow birth of a baby. This was
the norm out on the farm for permanent transfers. The trading
community between the areas also was active and representatives of
their respective areas travelled from and to and even lived in each
others communities. Sometimes they even settled down. This is
something that went on all over Europe and is not unique to the
Netherlands. Such towns as Quakenbrueck and Osnabrueck were trade
urban centers but their population staayed steady as only the
occasional tradesman would not come back for one reason or another.
One need only become familiar with the histories of the 'patrizier'
families which went on generation after generation and who lead the
good life to understand that there was not much reason for these to
want to leave all this and go elsewhere. Exceptions to the contrary of
course.

>>While what you say about many "heuerman" =
>>and other forms of primarily farm laborers is correct, but contrary to =
>>some popular beliefs all Germans were not dumb and uneducated, or for =
>>that matter farmers or farm laborers either. Many of these farm laborers =
>>did die from what is most commonly refered to as "Hollandfever" in the =
>>death records that they did seem to catch while mining peat either there =
>>or on their return or for that matter even in the areas both east and =
>>west of Bremen in Northern Germany. =

Being dumb and uneducated has little to do with being hungry. The
reason people went to Holland year after year was not because they
were stupid. They were two main reasons for the annual treck. One was
that there would be one less mouth to feed at home. The other was that
real money could be earned. One should understand that money as such
was a rather rare commodity for the Knecht or Magd or anyone in rural
life. Every penny earned would be saved for something better down the
road. Maybe emigration was the goal, maybe a cow. Who knows? Point is
there were no jobs were one could earn hard currency in the areas
where the Hollandgaenger lived. Work was performed for land, for food,
for a roof over the head. Trade was much more normal than cash.
Holland represented an exception as the economy there was booming and
money was available for menial and unskilled work at the bottom of the
social scale.

>>Now to my original question, I find not one person listed as =
>>cheesemaker, so maybe someone would know what trading company or =
>>industry may have been in Edan or Edam in the 1600 and 1700s to have =
>>attracted so many folks to come and settle there. One of my close =
>>professional friends from Osnabr=FCck told me, that the reason such a =
>>small country as the Netherlands became so successful, was because the =
>>people there were willing to try anything, especially if their european =
>>neighbors told them it couldn't be done.

>Hi charles wise friend you got there in osnabruck! Following that

>(undoubtely) true caracteristic of the dutch, specially those in N.
>Holland, lets proove Fred 's ideas are too simple this time ;-)

A professional would tell you that? He should do a little reading.
Again, for simplicity's sake, Holland was by now a trading nation. We
know that Dutch ships were roaming the world buying and selling
whatever the market would bear. The Hansa had long ago declined as the
new trading water had become the Atlantic instead of the Baltic and/or
North Sea. The reasons for this change of power are many and not
really pertinant here. Suffice it to say that Holland's time to shine
on the European scene had arrived. The nation tore away from more and
more established customs simply by virtue of having a less autocratic
government which sponsored trade as its first goal. Holland had
developed a capitalistic business ethic which required much more
freedom to act than was common in the rest of Europe. The Dutch
struggle against the empire (David again Goliath) required a people's
solidarity. They started the United Republic of the Netherlands (1579)
long before such concepts could bear fruit anywhere else but mostly
because of their desire to be free. Nothing new for the Frisian spirit
on either side of the Dutch/German border.

Innovation can only grow where there is freedom. I think the new
United States picked up on that little bit of wisdom 200 years later.

>Seen the function of Edam (trading centre, access to region of the
>ZAAN, as well as Haarlem and Amsterdam ) i am not willing (yet)
>to believe his ideas about farm labours.

I don't think I invented basic economics. Available labor always goes
to where it is needed and where the rewards are highest. Nothing new
here.

>Will get in contact with the archives where these church- archives are
>stored and ask their opinion. Getting curious now my self, after all
>these ancestors mine came from Oldenburg as well.

And they came for the money and sometimes were accepted by the family

they worked for to stay. At other times they simply had to stay and
get married. I don't think they had shotguns back then but I guess a
pitchfork would do in a pinch. :-)

>Fred is right about that Platt Deutsch. Reading that loud sure is much

>easier at that German they try to learn us at school. Talking about
>language: what did they dig while digging peat? ??. Not in my
>dictionary!

Torf or Törf in Platt.

>Inez Schade, amsterdam.

Seems like it was Inez whose Schade ancestors came from
Essen/Oldenburg and who went to Holland and got stuck. I had pointed
him to the ancient Schade farm name there quite some time ago. My
grandparents lived on Menslage land right next to Schade land. Both go
back further than written records can indicate. And the families are
still there and today rather wealthy from all this land.

Fred

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>Fred Rump wrote:
>>And they came for the money and sometimes were accepted by the family
>>they worked for to stay. At other times they simply had to stay and
>>get married. I don't think they had shotguns back then but I guess a
>>pitchfork would do in a pinch. :-)
>

>Good theory, but it seems that wedding either just before or soon after

>the birth of a child were more common in Germany than in Holland from

>what I see in my research. The marriages I have recorded happened enough

>time before the birth of the 1st child, that they were not forced.

>Actually I think if you read the history of the area in Germany, you

>will find that because of the rules of geting permission contributed to

>this so called shotgun weddings in Germany, which did not seem to be the

>case in Holland. I have seen letters written back to Germany from my

>ancestors who settled in New Orleans, who told their kind to come to

>America where everything was free, and you didn't have to get permission

>to marry the girl you wanted to.

That is very true but many of these 'forced' marriages were held
because the couple was practicing marriage before hand and things
happen. Permission was not the big deal in Germany it was usually
coming up with the funds for the event and also providing a place to
raise a family. Too often circumstances forced the issue when the girl
became pregnant. I don't know about the Netherlands but my suspicion
is that people had the same impulses and that lots of togetherness out
in the fields created the same situations on either side of the
border. I don't have any statistics on this but in my own people more
often than not the baby was born less than 9 months after the
marriage. I suppose somebody knew something was up and marriage was
the only option to prevent an even bigger scandal.

>You will also find whole families immigrated to Holland along with their

>children, so it would not be fair to make a statement that they only

>stayed when they found someone to marry or had to marry because a child

>was on the way. Since most of my ancestors were Lutheran or Reformed, I

>can not speak for the Catholic area or rules that the church may have

>imposed.

I was talking about the many people who wound up marrying a Dutch
girl. I'm also only presuming the reason for marriage because I've
seen it so often with either religion. Again, people are people.

I have read that some families emigrated to Holland and other European
countries (Scandinavia, the Balkans and the German eastern areas) in
group like caravans. Usually this happened after one of their members
reconnoitered the scene in advance and then send for the rest of the
family or other relatives and neighbors. Most of the annual workers
though simply went there for the money and returned. The situation was
so desperate though that they even started a naval training school in
Steinfeld. Graduates then could get jobs with the whaling fleets along
with other shipping duties.

>Hermann Walter Polhsander put together the "Hofgeschichten, ca

>1400-1870" for many of the farms in the area of Menslage, Quakenbrück,
>and Bersenbrück. If you have not reviewed these, they can be obtained at

>your local FHC. These are on microfiche, and our center charges 15

>cents each and keeps them permantantly here. Some very interesting

>reading for sure in many of these. It was wonderful the work this

>man did to document this for everyone to enjoy. From my many discussions

>with people in the area there, family farming in Germany today is much

>like in America, and not a place to get rich for sure.

Never heard of this man. He's not even listed in the bibliography of
the 600 page history of Quakenbrueck which covers the Kirchspiele of
the Artland in some detail.

I would suggest the 1902 work by J. Tuck, "Die Hollandgaenger in
Hannover und Oldenburg" as well as Franz Bölker-Schlicht's "Die
Hollandgängerei in den Kirchspielen des Artlandes vom 17. bis zum 19.
Jahrhundert".

Checking into the material in a little more detail we find that the
Grafschaft Lingen and the northern part of the Fürstentum Osnbrück had
the represented the largest source of the annual workertrecks to
Holland. Apparently the most often used time was from May to June for
a period of 6 to 8 weeks - not the three to four months I mentioned
earlier from June to September. The May/June time frame was to bring
in the hay. Peat could be dug at other times too of course and it was
these people who went to Holland for 3 to 4 months right after Easter.
In the 18th century most of the whale hunting helpers came from the
Kirchspiel Gehrde while several quite a few people also went on the
annual St Petersburg trips to work in Russia.

The historians tells us that: 'Außer den genannten drei
Haupttätigkeiten verrichteten einzelne Hollandgänger zuweilen auch
handwerkliche Tätigkeiten, z. B. als Maurer, oder arbeiteten in
Gärten. (from Wilhelm Hardebeck "Die Hollandgänger und Dänemarker im
Kreise Bersenbrück")

After the 30 years war the Princebishop Franz Wilhelm tried to stop
these trips as he needed all the workers available. He requested his
local officials to keep lists of everyone who went with or without
permission. In 1656 such a list shows 57 and 73 people having gone
from the Kirchspiel Menslage and Badbergen respectively. Several women
where in the group and practically all were Heuerleute or Knechte.
Most of the people had left without permission and were fined 5
Reichsthaler plus an administrative charge to socalled Amtsgeld. When
one considers that they probably only earned 8 Thaler this was quite a
fine and caused much consternation and many appeals. Nothing helped
though. If they could not pay their only cow would be taken from them
until the fine was paid. There was so much trouble about this that in
1657 permission was given to any and all who wanted to go and all paid
fines were to be returned. Only those who were obligated to work for
their landlord or who had been conscripted into the Landmiliz could
not go.

In the early years only about 3 to 4% of the available labor went to
find seasonal work. Later this went up to 8 and 9% in certain areas.
(During Napoleon"s time it was even 10%). By the 19th century a worker
could take home up to 40 Dutch Gulden for the season. That meant that
he could not spend any money to live on though. "Freylich müssen diese
fleißige Leut manche Seite Speck, manches Schwarzbrot und Buttertopf
mit dahin nehmen, um so viel Geld wieder zurückbringen zu können,
indem es in Holland so theuer ist für bares Geld zu zehren."
In 1825 the salary became even less as the need for peat was now
reduced because of the import of English coal and from now on a season
of peat digging would hardly bring in 30 Gulden. In 1826 we can read
from the reports of the Amt Bersenbrueck that the conditions for the
Baggerey (peat digging) got so bad that 1/3 of the workers came home
sick and around 50 had died from the feaver. This was out of roughly
1000 workers.

The thousands of workers who annually left from the Artland to work in
Holland slowly went down in numbers as these same people formed the
nucleus for emigration to America. By 1870 the annual Hollandtrecks
had stopped alltogether.

As an example of the magnitude of emigration to America we can see
that out of the population of roughly 25,000 people in the Amt
Bersenbrueck approximately 5000 had left to go to America between 1833
and 1847. By 1849 only 21 people still went to Holland from the
Kirchspiel Badbergen. America had proven to be a much better
alternative.

Fred

Quakenbrueck itself did not have any Hollandgaenger and the
neighborhood never went over 5%.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Fred Rump wrote:
> The situation was
>so desperate though that they even started a naval training school in
>Steinfeld. Graduates then could get jobs with the whaling fleets along
>with other shipping duties.

Interesting, We have not read of this, can you give a reference and ISDN =

number.

>>Hermann Walter Polhsander put together the "Hofgeschichten, ca

>>1400-1870" for many of the farms in the area of Menslage, Quakenbr=FCck,
>>and Bersenbr=FCck. If you have not reviewed these, they can be obtained a=
t

>>your local FHC. These are on microfiche, and our center charges 15
>>cents each and keeps them permantantly here. Some very interesting
>>reading for sure in many of these. It was wonderful the work this
>>man did to document this for everyone to enjoy. From my many discussions
>>with people in the area there, family farming in Germany today is much
>>like in America, and not a place to get rich for sure.

>Never heard of this man. If you search under "author" at your local FHC yo=
u will find a wealth of =

information he had allowed them to microfilm. Some of the farms, of the =

many,many he did are:
Alberding in Nortrup, Alberding in Wehdel, Bentlage, Bruns, Ceckerman, =

Borcherding, Dammer, Tecker, Burmeister, Diekmann in Gross Mimnelage, =

Dierker in Vehs, Dobbelmann in Renslage, Schone, Hoffmann, Huelsmann in =

Klein Mimmelage, Lindemann, Messe, many Meyer's, Moehlmann, Sandforth, =

Rumpenhorst, and on and on, just to name a few. If you search under the =

number 6001156 for Rumpenhorst, you will pull up quite a large list, =

including the one's above.

>He's not even listed in the bibliography of
>the 600 page history of Quakenbrueck which covers the Kirchspiele of
>the Artland in some detail.

Maybe you are refering to "Quakenbr=FCck vonder Grenzfestung zum =

Gewerbezentrum" ISDN 3-9800335-3-8. It may be available via =

interlibrary loan, for those interested in reading it. Excellant book.

>I would suggest the 1902 work by J. Tuck, "Die Hollandgaenger in

>Hannover und Oldenburg" as well as Franz B=F6lker-Schlicht's "Die
>Hollandg=E4ngerei in den Kirchspielen des Artlandes vom 17. bis zum 19.
>Jahrhundert".We have many book on the Hollandg=E4ngers, but not the ones y=
ou mention, =

could you give an ISDN number. Seems to be lots of things writen about =

this in many books in the area, all with somewhat different facts and =

figures and different points of view.

>Checking into the material in a little more detail we find that the

>Grafschaft Lingen and the northern part of the F=FCrstentum Osnbr=FCck had=

>the represented the largest source of the annual workertrecks to
>Holland. Apparently the most often used time was from May to June for
>a period of 6 to 8 weeks - not the three to four months I mentioned
>earlier from June to September. The May/June time frame was to bring
>in the hay. Peat could be dug at other times too of course and it was
>these people who went to Holland for 3 to 4 months right after Easter.
>In the 18th century most of the whale hunting helpers came from the
>Kirchspiel Gehrde while several quite a few people also went on the

>annual St Petersburg trips to work in Russia.Many Germans when to Russia a=
t the invitation of Katherine the Great to =

help settle the land and remained. Many also migrated to what is now =

Poland to do the same and remained until after WWII.

>After the 30 years war the Princebishop Franz Wilhelm tried to stop

>these trips ..... snip ......

> If they could not pay their only cow would be taken from them
>until the fine was paid. There was so much trouble about this that in
>1657 permission was given to any and all who wanted to go and all paid
>fines were to be returned. Only those who were obligated to work for
>their landlord or who had been conscripted into the Landmiliz could

>not go.Yes, the 30 years WAR gave a new backbone to lots of folks to gain =
a =

small level of freedom, includidng Freedom of worship. The numbers vary =

depending of the stadt gemeinde and the author.

Charles Hofmann aus Tucson

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Fred Rump Wrote:
>I wouldn't exactly call it back bone. Freedom of worship is exactly
>what did NOT come out of the Peace of Westphalia. All that it decided
>was to confirm the right of the lord to decide the religion of his
>subjects as had been arranged in Augsburg in 1555. (Cujio religio) or
>something similar was the term.- Probably mostly right, but for sure a begining, and there seemed to be
quite a lot of marriages among protestants, but almost never between
Catholic and Protestant. Actually better said, it ended the power of the
Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.

>No, what happened after the fighting stopped (the Swedes did not leave
>Vechta until many years after the peace was signed) was that people
>had no food as their farms had been destroyed. - I believe they stayed to ensure the peace and borders as well to some
extent from redomination by the Catholic dukes and pope. Not the only
reason for sure, but one of the many for sure. I agree not really
genealogy, so this discussion sould be on some other forum, but it did
for sure effect the movement and gene pools of the population for 100s
of years there after.

Charles Hofmann aus Tucson, Arizona

--

Researching names - Harding and Rowe in Kentucky, Haas and Oelschlegel

in New Orleans, and Bavaria, Linnemann or Lindemann in Hannover Germany,

Hasenwinkel and Grupin near Magdeburg Germany, Bekebrede, Schumacher,

and Esselmann in Nord Holland and West Hannover areas. Try our Hofmann

Family Home Page, there are many more names there and some good links to

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>Fred Rump wrote:
>> The situation was
>>so desperate though that they even started a naval training school in
>>Steinfeld. Graduates then could get jobs with the whaling fleets along
>>with other shipping duties.
>

>Interesting, We have not read of this, can you give a reference and ISDN

>number.

The Naval school discussion? You can obviously find that in the
history of Steinfeld (ISBN 3-88441-056-3). The "Nautische Schule's"
prime time was from 1817 to 1831 in Mühlen just outside of Steinfeld.
A good discussion follows an article on the Hollandgaenger (p.158) and
is called "Die Schiffahrt im Kirchspiel Steinfeld" on pg. 162 both by
Rudi Timphus. The main idea was to provide navigational training.
Apparently it was not new that local people served in various places
and in a variety of function on the ships of the North Sea and the
Baltic. Most of them worked in the Herring industry. Amsterdam, Emden,
Altona, Stettin and Bremen-Vegesack were the most popular employment
sites. Timphus provides a short list of death entries where the time
and location was known and due to the dangers of working on the sea.
Then of course there was all that sickness working under difficult
conditions. In a few short years 50 people are listed to have died
from Steinfeld alone while on sea duty. Since you mention Olberding

>Maybe you are refering to "Quakenbrück vonder Grenzfestung zum

>Gewerbezentrum" ISDN 3-9800335-3-8. It may be available via

>interlibrary loan, for those interested in reading it. Excellant book.

That's the book alright.

>>I would suggest the 1902 work by J. Tuck, "Die Hollandgaenger in
>>Hannover und Oldenburg" as well as Franz Bölker-Schlicht's "Die
>>Hollandgängerei in den Kirchspielen des Artlandes vom 17. bis zum 19.

>>Jahrhundert".We have many book on the Hollandgängers, but not the ones you mention,

>could you give an ISDN number. Seems to be lots of things writen about

>this in many books in the area, all with somewhat different facts and

>figures and different points of view.

Yes, obviously conditions varied. I don't have the 1902 book but the
Bölker-Schlicht work appears in the Quakenbrück history. In the
general area of the Oldenburger-Muensterland and northern Osnabrueck
practically every community was involved in some way with the drive
for survival and the trips to other places to search for work. Every
local history has a discussion on the topic as the times were
traumatic enough not to have escaped all the other humdrum daily life
problems. One can just imagine what it must have been like to have 10%
of the population go away without anybody knowing who would return
just a few weeks later. The percentages were obviously of the entire
population and must have had a much bigger impact upon just the joung
men of working age.

>Many Germans when to Russia at the invitation of Katherine the Great to

>help settle the land and remained. Many also migrated to what is now

>Poland to do the same and remained until after WWII.

Yes, but that is a different situation which did not affect these
people in general. Only the emigration to Hungary and Transylvania
made much of an impact upon the population from the area in question.
(aside from the USA).

>Yes, the 30 years WAR gave a new backbone to lots of folks to gain a

>small level of freedom, includidng Freedom of worship. The numbers vary

>depending of the stadt gemeinde and the author.

I wouldn't exactly call it back bone. Freedom of worship is exactly

what did NOT come out of the Peace of Westphalia. All that it decided
was to confirm the right of the lord to decide the religion of his
subjects as had been arranged in Augsburg in 1555. (Cujio religio) or
something similar was the term.

No, what happened after the fighting stopped (the Swedes did not leave

Vechta until many years after the peace was signed) was that people

had no food as their farms had been destroyed. They had to do
something or die of starvation. The situation I described were
permission was not asked for was an act of desparation and the attempt
to control that was met with open revolt. When you are about to die it
doesn't really matter how and you might as well fight.

This is not the place but reading a history of the 30 years war does
not tell the full story. It is difficult to understand without the
type of pictures we see from the holocaust and war in general today.
maybe if we take a look at the African strife we can get an idea of
what it must have been like. Forget modern medicin though and imagine
entire villages burned down with their inhabitants. Often the only
survivors were able to hide in the bogs where they knew their way and
the enemy didn't. But then there was no food.

Fred

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>Fred Rump Wrote:
>>I wouldn't exactly call it back bone. Freedom of worship is exactly
>>what did NOT come out of the Peace of Westphalia. All that it decided
>>was to confirm the right of the lord to decide the religion of his
>>subjects as had been arranged in Augsburg in 1555. (Cujio religio) or

>>something similar was the term.-

>Probably mostly right, but for sure a beginning, and there seemed to be

>quite a lot of marriages among protestants, but almost never between
>Catholic and Protestant. Actually better said, it ended the power of the
>Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.

The pope had lost power over Europe a long time before the
reformation. The Church is another story as it came in many flavors
and much privilege to protect. No human organization gives up power
voluntarily. In this case power simply shifted to other parties. The
people, for whom religion was supposed to exist, were in the same
position as before. They were told what to believe and to like it.
Concepts of freedom of religion to this day have not been worked out
among mankind as some people still think they have a better connection
to the God of all mankind. When they are willing to kill or die to
prove it, they are still back there at the beginning ever further away
from the real goal of any religion.

>>No, what happened after the fighting stopped (the Swedes did not leave
>>Vechta until many years after the peace was signed) was that people

>>had no food as their farms had been destroyed. -

> I believe they stayed to ensure the peace and borders as well to some
>extent from redomination by the Catholic dukes and pope. Not the only
>reason for sure, but one of the many for sure. I agree not really
>genealogy, so this discussion sould be on some other forum, but it did
>for sure effect the movement and gene pools of the population for 100s
>of years there after.

The 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia is pretty much on the
current historical discussion trend in Germany. Next year is the 350th
anniversary of this epochal event. We need to know that this was the
very first real international peace conference held by all the
concerned parties. It sealed the fate of much that was to come later
on and many works of history are being released to commemorate this
settlement.

As to the Swedes hanging around despite their agreement to leave the
battlefield, assuring the peace was furthest from their mind.
Extortion and extraction of every possible resource for themselves is
much closer to the truth. The 3 volume set (roughly 2500 pages)
"Geschichte der Stadt Münster" (1993) & ISBN 3-402-5370-5 covers this
and other matters concerning the city and the Münsterland in general
in some detail. The sorry state the Swedish occupation left the
countryside in is covered rather well there.

[C / K Hofmann]

W. Fred Rump wrote:

> >Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.
>
> The pope had lost power over Europe a long time before the
> reformation.

-- don't forget the little thing called excommunication and declaration
of one to be a NON-person, big time power in it's time I'd say and
liberally used...As I recall a NON-Person was lower than any animal,
with no rights and could be robbed or killed by anyone without fear of
consequences..

> The 30 Years War and the Peace of Westphalia is pretty much on the
> current historical discussion trend in Germany. Next year is the 350th

> anniversary of this epochal event. We are hoping to be in Osnabrück about that time with our relatives,
should be interesting we hope. Lots written, and lots of theories, all
interesting, and most with some validity. They recently found the
meeting place near Tecklenburg that the Catholics meeting in Münster and
the Protestants meeting in Osnabrück met to exchange communications
during the debate they believe.

The 3 volume set (roughly 2500 pages)
> "Geschichte der Stadt Münster" (1993) & ISBN 3-402-5370-5 covers this
> and other matters concerning the city and the Münsterland in general
> in some detail. The sorry state the Swedish occupation left the

> countryside in is covered rather well there.Occupation normally is not a pleasant experience for anyone envolved,
and for sure the one's being occupied.

Charles Hofmann aus Tucson, Arizona
--

<http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html> Try our Home Page, we
are researching many names in Germany and Holland

[W. Fred Rump]

C / K Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>
>W. Fred Rump wrote:
>
>> >Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.
>>
>> The pope had lost power over Europe a long time before the
>> reformation.
>
>-- don't forget the little thing called excommunication and declaration
>of one to be a NON-person, big time power in it's time I'd say and
>liberally used...As I recall a NON-Person was lower than any animal,
>with no rights and could be robbed or killed by anyone without fear of
>consequences..

That was the Pope's last gasp over the royalty in Europe. Once they
started crowing themselves and couldn't care less what the pope
wanted, it was all down to local politics. In the time we are talking
about it was the nobilith that had the power. They appointed (or had a
heavy hand in it) the prince-bishops and other bishops and these had
to tow the line lest they be out of a job. In 1803 all thses folks
were simply stripped of their civil power completely and then the pope
came more into play as they now only had church jobs. With the
Protestants it was even worse as Bishops were born into the job via
their hereditary status. For example - Ernst August I of the house of
Braunschweig-Lüneburg became the first such Lutheran bishop in
Osnabrück in 1661. Upon his death in 1698 the Duke of Lorraine, Karl
Joseph, is chosen as the new RC Bishop. In 1715 the brother of King
George I of England becomes bishop. In 1728 the Duke of Bavaria
becomes the RC bishop as the religions keep trading places. In 1764
the "newly born" baby Prince Frederick, Duke of York & son of King
George III of England, becomes the Protestant bishop of Osnabrueck.
The British crown received 55,000 Thaler annually as his salary but
the city itself saved a great deal of money in the process as they did
not have to pay for the entire retinue of a bishops court. The baby
bishop, who is now 19, finally arrives in Osnabrueck for the first to
check on his bishops seat in 1783. He's not enamored by it and returns
to London asap. In 1793 the Bishop of O. is given the task of
commander-in-chief of the British armed forces in order to defeat the
French revolutionary regime.

The peace of Basel in 1795 make O. into neutral territory and yet my
gr...grandfather is stationed there among other Prussian troops from
Ansbach to protect the demarkation lines. Therefore my connection to
Osnabrück. I had to throw some genealogy in here. :-)

Point of all this is not to confuse our modern church systems with
what used to be the norm for hundreds of years. Except for Osnabrueck
it was up to each ruler to set the religious scene. The Peace of
Westphalia tried to freeze the situation as of the religious status
which existed in 1621 in each community but much local shuffling went
on anyway by force of law.

> Lots written, and lots of theories, all interesting, and most with some validity.

I don't know about the theories. By this time everybody has the
situation pretty well figured out. The real work is in the publication
of all the original records (in hundreds of volumes) of these
conferences (it took several years to finish).

>They recently found the
>meeting place near Tecklenburg that the Catholics meeting in Münster and
>the Protestants meeting in Osnabrück met to exchange communications
>during the debate they believe.

That's not quite how it went. The Catholic Church was only present in
Muenster and did not want to talk directly to the Swedes who were
meeting in Osnabrueck. The settlement was really about satisfying
Catholic France in Muenster along with the Dutch and their claims for
freedom from the Holy Roman Empire (Spain) and the other part of the
settlement was between the Swedes to satisfy their demands for
territory and money to stop fighting against the HRE.

We need to remember that this was not a truce yet. They were still
killing each other outside of the peace negotiation territory.

>>The sorry state the Swedish occupation left the
>> countryside in is covered rather well there.
>Occupation normally is not a pleasant experience for anyone envolved,
>and for sure the one's being occupied.

No, it was not just occupation that was the issue. The Swedes were not
being paid. They were mostly made up of mercenary (Söldners) troops
and these simply took from the population whatever they wanted in
compensation. To resist was futile and they lived without law and
order. The way they were finally gotten out of there was to pay what
they demanded in tribute. It's a long story but don't think it was
some nice little occupation with troops in a camp or something. They
simply went from one place to another until there was nothing left to
take. The comparison has often made to earlier Viking raids which also
lived on in the German consciousness. The French behaved in similar
fashion in the Rhineland and that little bit of memory also did not go
away until modern times. To this day there are roads named after the
Swedes who used to travel them 350 years ago and from there went left
and right into the countryside to ravish, rape and kill anybody who
resisted their demands. That is how so much of the countryside was
leveled and burned and what made up the memories of that terrible war.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

Fred Rump wrote:

>>W. Fred Rump wrote:
>>
>>> >Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.
>>>>
>> The pope had lost power over Europe a long time before the
>>> reformation.

>>-- don't forget the little thing called excommunication and =

>declaration
>>of one to be a NON-person, big time power in it's time I'd say and
>>liberally used...As I recall a NON-Person was lower than any animal,
>>with no rights and could be robbed or killed by anyone without fear of
>>consequences..

>That was the Pope's last gasp over the royalty in Europe. Once they
>started crowing themselves and couldn't care less what the pope
>wanted, it was all down to local politics. In the time we are talking
>about it was the nobilith that had the power. They appointed (or had a
>heavy hand in it) the prince-bishops and other bishops and these had
>to tow the line lest they be out of a job. In 1803 all thses folks
>were simply stripped of their civil power completely and then the pope
>came more into play as they now only had church jobs. With the
>Protestants it was even worse as Bishops were born into the job via
>their hereditary status. For example - Ernst August I of the house of

>Braunschweig-L=FCneburg became the first such Lutheran bishop in
>Osnabr=FCck in 1661. =

-- for anyone doing their genealogy around the Osnabr=FCck area, you =

should remember most of the churchs were Reformed Protestant, and not =

Lutheran. Today really merged, but the merger is still not fully =

accepted in many areas as being really the same.

>Upon his death in 1698 the Duke of Lorraine, Karl
>Joseph, is chosen as the new RC Bishop. In 1715 the brother of King
>George I of England becomes bishop. In 1728 the Duke of Bavaria
>becomes the RC bishop as the religions keep trading places. In 1764
>the "newly born" baby Prince Frederick, Duke of York & son of King
>George III of England, becomes the Protestant bishop of Osnabrueck.
>The British crown received 55,000 Thaler annually as his salary but
>the city itself saved a great deal of money in the process as they did
>not have to pay for the entire retinue of a bishops court. The baby
>bishop, who is now 19, finally arrives in Osnabrueck for the first to
>check on his bishops seat in 1783. He's not enamored by it and returns
>to London asap. In 1793 the Bishop of O. is given the task of
>commander-in-chief of the British armed forces in order to defeat the
>French revolutionary regime.

>The peace of Basel in 1795 make O. into neutral territory and yet my
>gr...grandfather is stationed there among other Prussian troops from
>Ansbach to protect the demarkation lines. Therefore my connection to

>Osnabr=FCck. I had to throw some genealogy in here. :-)

>Point of all this is not to confuse our modern church systems with
>what used to be the norm for hundreds of years. Except for Osnabrueck
>it was up to each ruler to set the religious scene. The Peace of
>Westphalia tried to freeze the situation as of the religious status
>which existed in 1621 in each community but much local shuffling went
>on anyway by force of law.

>> Lots written, and lots of theories, all interesting, and most with =

>>some validity.

>I don't know about the theories. By this time everybody has the
>situation pretty well figured out. The real work is in the publication
>of all the original records (in hundreds of volumes) of these
>conferences (it took several years to finish).

>>They recently found the
>>meeting place near Tecklenburg that the Catholics meeting in M=FCnster =

>and
>>the Protestants meeting in Osnabr=FCck met to exchange communications

>>during the debate they believe.

>That's not quite how it went.-- It was the Protestants who were meeting in=
Osnabr=FCck, not just the =

Swedes for sure. The Swedes were also Protestants of course and the =

Catholic Dukes and church representatives met in M=FCnster. It could be =

they did not want to talk directly to the Swedes, kinda childish, but =

when you have just lost direct talks even among grown men is maybe not =

very pleasant. =

>The Catholic Church was only present in
>Muenster and did not want to talk directly to the Swedes who were
>meeting in Osnabrueck. The settlement was really about satisfying
>Catholic France in Muenster along with the Dutch and their claims for
>freedom from the Holy Roman Empire (Spain) and the other part of the
>settlement was between the Swedes to satisfy their demands for
>territory and money to stop fighting against the HRE.

>We need to remember that this was not a truce yet. They were still
>killing each other outside of the peace negotiation territory.>

- Killing continued for years to come, WAR was the thing to do, all the =

rulers were greedy and the ones who were not had to protect themselves.

>>>The sorry state the Swedish occupation left the
>>> countryside in is covered rather well there.
>>Occupation normally is not a pleasant experience for anyone envolved,
>>and for sure the one's being occupied.

>No, it was not just occupation that was the issue. The Swedes were not

>being paid. They were mostly made up of mercenary (S=F6ldners) troops

>and these simply took from the population whatever they wanted in
>compensation. To resist was futile and they lived without law and
>order. The way they were finally gotten out of there was to pay what
>they demanded in tribute. It's a long story but don't think it was
>some nice little occupation with troops in a camp or something. They
>simply went from one place to another until there was nothing left to
>take. The comparison has often made to earlier Viking raids which also
>lived on in the German consciousness. The French behaved in similar
>fashion in the Rhineland and that little bit of memory also did not go
>away until modern times. To this day there are roads named after the
>Swedes who used to travel them 350 years ago and from there went left
>and right into the countryside to ravish, rape and kill anybody who
>resisted their demands. That is how so much of the countryside was
>leveled and burned and what made up the memories of that terrible war.

In Neidersachen and Mechlenburg, the Swedes are not thought of in such a =

poor way, probably because they were protestant areas after the =

Reformation. I have always wondered what happened to the records of the =

money received by the Catholic church received from selling indulgences =

prior to the Reformation, maybe they are stored in Rome? This could be a =

great sourse of genealogy information if made available.

Charles Hofmann Tucson, Arizona

-- =

Researching names - Harding and Rowe in Kentucky, Haas and Oelschlegel =

in New Orleans, and Bavaria, Linnemann or Lindemann in Hannover Germany, =

Hasenwinkel and Grupin near Magdeburg Germany, Bekebrede, Schumacher, =

and Esselmann in Nord Holland and West Hannover areas. Try our Hofmann =

Family Home Page, there are many more names there and some good links to =

[Carsten Läkamp]

On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:59:23 GMT, in soc.genealogy.german ( in article
<3351a55e....@news.netaxs.com> ), fr...@k2nesoft.com (W. Fred
Rump) wrote:

>C / K Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>W. Fred Rump wrote:
>>
>>> >Pope over a good part of Europe along with his pupits.
>>>
>>> The pope had lost power over Europe a long time before the
>>> reformation.
>>
>>-- don't forget the little thing called excommunication and declaration
>>of one to be a NON-person, big time power in it's time I'd say and
>>liberally used...As I recall a NON-Person was lower than any animal,
>>with no rights and could be robbed or killed by anyone without fear of
>>consequences..
>
>That was the Pope's last gasp over the royalty in Europe.

Don't forget the Inquisition either....

>That's not quite how it went. The Catholic Church was only present in
>Muenster and did not want to talk directly to the Swedes who were
>meeting in Osnabrueck.

...with the other protestant states and cities involved in the war. A
look at the portraits in the Friedenssaal gives a good impression on
the importance of that meeting.

>The settlement was really about satisfying
>Catholic France in Muenster

which fought on the side of the Protestants. ( Just a precision for
those who are not too acquainted with that war).

>
>No, it was not just occupation that was the issue. The Swedes were not
>being paid. They were mostly made up of mercenary (Söldners) troops
>and these simply took from the population whatever they wanted in
>compensation.

<...>

Very good picture you give there.

Carsten Läkamp
Strasbourg, Alsace, France, EU
e-mail: lak...@inforoute.cgs.fr

[W. Fred Rump]

lak...@inforoute.cgs.fr (Carsten Läkamp) wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 06:59:23 GMT, in soc.genealogy.german ( in article
><3351a55e....@news.netaxs.com> ), fr...@k2nesoft.com (W. Fred
>Rump) wrote:

>>That was the Pope's last gasp over the royalty in Europe.
>

>Don't forget the Inquisition either....

The Inquisition makes for some good press, as do other signs of the
times, but they are highly overrated in the general scheme of things.
In retrospect we can see games of power played out by all parties and
for the time this was quite normal.

>>That's not quite how it went. The Catholic Church was only present in
>>Muenster and did not want to talk directly to the Swedes who were
>>meeting in Osnabrueck.
>

>...with the other protestant states and cities involved in the war. A
>look at the portraits in the Friedenssaal gives a good impression on
>the importance of that meeting.

No doubt. What is generally unkown is that the people who made those
portraits had mass production shops running which duplicated portraits
and/or made special demand sets for the various participants to take
home with them. Others were ordered by princely houses to record their
participation along with the powers of Europe. The participants
definately knew that they were involved in a very historic
undertaking. The idea was to meet peacefully in order to settle issues
which had never before been settled in such a fashion. They may have
even thought they were once and for all ending all wars.

>>The settlement was really about satisfying
>>Catholic France in Muenster
>

>which fought on the side of the Protestants. ( Just a precision for
>those who are not too acquainted with that war).

Yes, it points out that religion was not really the overriding issue.
It was simply used by the players of the game to get what they wanted.
The empire was weakend by internal strife and local power issues. The
vultures came running for the spoils. As the spoils themselves
started to become scarce and everybody was wearing themselves out the
winners decided to end the mess by simply settling for whatever they
could get at that point. The empire (and Church) went along to cut
their own losses.

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>Fred Rump wrote:

>-- for anyone doing their genealogy around the Osnabrück area, you

>should remember most of the churchs were Reformed Protestant, and not

>Lutheran. Today really merged, but the merger is still not fully

>accepted in many areas as being really the same.

Correct, the term Lutheran was not really used at the time, but nor
was Reformed. The general scene was set by the status quo Church and
those who protested against it and who became known as such. German
historians generally don't get involved in all the intricacies of the
protesters within the protestors and simply label them all as
Protestanten. In general we speak of the Protestants and the
Catholics. The various subsets of Protestantism are best left to
define themselves as it suits them best. Even today one is simply
Evangelisch or Katholisch.

>In Neidersachen and Mechlenburg, the Swedes are not thought of in such a

>poor way, probably because they were protestant areas after the

>Reformation.

While I can't speak for all of Niedersachsen or even parts of
Mecklenburg, I just don't think that these forces differentiated all
that much between one religion or another when they went after booty.
The individual soldier was not a zealot fighting for his religion. He
was there as a hired hand. If he didn't get paid as promised, too bad
if he had to rob the people he was supposed to be fighting for.
Obviously the taking of an enemy town after losing your buddies in
combat brought forth other emotions too.

> I have always wondered what happened to the records of the

>money received by the Catholic church received from selling indulgences

>prior to the Reformation, maybe they are stored in Rome? This could be a

>great sourse of genealogy information if made available.

Huh? What records? What lists? You would be much better off to take
aim at the current tax lists each self-professed member of a religious
body is on in Germany. The state then taxes you and gives the money to
the church. In the old days they raised their funds in ways that made
sense then. Seems pretty legit to me to have to pay to get your sins
forgiven. Whether any of this works or not is of course another story.
Religious behavior is similarly strange if Luther preaches the burning
of witches or some pope orders a crusade. In all cases we are using
power to convince others of the rightousness of our own ways. It's
been that way for a long time and all we need to do is look around us
to see that nothing much has changed. It's still the story of
humanity.

[W. Fred Rump]

Charles & Karen Hofmann <hof...@azstarnet.com> wrote:

>>> I have always wondered what happened to the records of the

>>>money received by the Catholic church received from selling
>>indulgences

>>>prior to the Reformation, maybe they are stored in Rome? This could be a

>>>great sourse of genealogy information if made available.
>

>Huh? What records? What lists? - My point where are they, all in the
>fire, I doubt it, but maybe.

No, I questioned the very existence of such lists - ever.

> You have missed the point, has nothing to
>do with what Luther or the other reformer preached, or what folks of the
>catholic religion believe today or before. It has some side effects on
>genealogy for sure, so guess you opinions are OK for this group? At
>least OK by me. What records they are keeping today with the collection
>of taxes for the church is of not much interest for me nor for most of
>us who are working on our German ancestors, and as I understand, it is
>quite easy to leave the church so you don't have to pay this tax, just
>can't use the services for Batpisms, Wedding, Funerals, etc anymore

Don't kid yourself. All these items are still billable - at least in
countries were the people aren't taxed up front for these services.
Churches have never run on air and water.

My point, in case you missed it, was that the raising of funds may be
different for the various religions in time and place but all of them
know how to do this with some measure of expertise. No church can
survive very long without donations, taxes, fees or whatever you might
want to call their fund raising efforts. The sale of special favors in
paradise seem (to me) to be a specially creative way of fund raising
but whether it is done this way or by taxing a 10th of one's income
doesn't seem to matter all that much.

In genealogy we mostly forget that image of our ancestors which
includes their daily life involving Church and religion. In most cases
it was all encompassing from morning to bedtime prayers. Life revolved
around God. All the suffering that they had to go through in their
short life on earth was made bearable because they only saw it as a
test to get to heaven. The church towers and the bells within them had
a real purpose in that they could serve as a constant reminder several
times a day to say one's prayers. In the fields this represented break
time. The Angelus would ring at 3PM and it was time to pray.

I remember well that not much had changed in the mid 20th century when
everyone got up before the sun would rise, say their morning prayers
or go to mass, have a very quick and light Butter (usually a
Marmeladenbrot or sandwich), get into the fields and work till it was
time for a real breakfast around 9 or 10 AM. Now it was time for a
Schinken- or Wurstbutter. In East Prussia we used to call a sandwich a
Stulle. In Oldenburg it was a Butter. Never made any sense to me as a
kid. Since we didn't have any butter, did we call our sandwiches a
Margarine? No way.

At noon (actually on every hour) the bells would ring again for
Mittagessen. It was time to assemble in the Bauernhaus and eat a BIG
lunch. Lots of Suppe - usually Vizebohnen mit Speck. Prayer was part
of the scene. Work then continued until the Angelus at 3. Then it was
time for Butterkuchen or some other Kaffee & Kuchen. Or maybe the K&K
was at 2. I really don't remember. It all went like clockwork
regulated by the church bells. When it got dark it was time to quit
and have Abendbrot. More sandwiches with prayer. Often the rosary
would have to be said before bed. Not going to church on Sunday was
simply not a valid concept. It was a Totsünde and if you should die
(which was to be expected any moment), eternal damnation would be the
result.

Today life is different but how many generations experienced just such
a routine day in day out?

The tremendous hold that religion, the Church, God had upon the people
was quite a threat to the power of everyone else who wanted to control
things. Obviously this extended to the people involved with religion
themselves. Everybody wanted to be in control of this super loyalty.
The Kulturkampf in Bismark's time was just another manifestation of
this struggle against the power of the Church, any Church, but
especially the unified Roman Catholic Church and the Zentrum party to
which so many of its members belonged. It is from this time that the
concept of taxing the people who want to belong to a Church has its
origins. Controlling the funding gives control to the state. The State
can then dole out as it pleases and retain a measure of the upper
hand. I believe ministers and priests actually get a salary and social
security and all that.

The way the state ran roughshod over the Church during the NAZI era.
when they arrested cardinals, priests, nuns and ministers as needed,
was not really resisted by the people because the state had lots of
preparation in control of religion as the opium of the people. I know
of only one instance where the people stood up to the state en masse
during this time period and that was to protest the order of the
Gauleiter in Oldenburg to remove the crosses from their public
schools. That was a bit too much for the people of the
Oldenburger-Muensterland and they marched by the thousands with
pitchfork in hand. The order was quietly rescinded but the leaders of
the revolt and the priests who called for it just as quietly
disappeared during the night. The whole business was hushed up in a
censored press lest anyone get the idea that united action was
possible.

It is still a fact of life in Germany that religion is taught in
public school. Until recently there were 'katholische und evangelische
Schulen'. I believe they've all been combined now and the students are
taught the religion of their faith or maybe the majority. I don't know
how they handle the Moslems who represent such a large percentage of
the studentbody. I know for sure they are not too happy with the
Church of Scientology and have passed all kinds of laws against their
members having equal rights along with everybody else. Maybe something
about not being able to control of their activities? The German state
simply decided they are not a religion and that is that.

Anyway, enough of that.

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

>>>> I have always wondered what happened to the records of the
>>>>money received by the Catholic church received from selling
>>>indulgences

>>>>prior to the Reformation, maybe they are stored in Rome? This could be =

>it was all encompassing from morning to bedtime prayers. =

Many of folks in America still prayer before meals and bedtime today as =

well as we do. Interestingly even some of my relatives in Germany do as =

well today even though for the most part I find it has been dropped, =

and for sure I agreed some bad feeling toward the chruch in general

>simply not a valid concept. It was a Tots=FCnde and if you should die

>(which was to be expected any moment), eternal damnation would be the
>result.

>Today life is different but how many generations experienced just such
>a routine day in day out?

->The tremendous hold that religion, the Church, God had upon the people
->was quite a threat to the power of everyone else who wanted to control
->things. Obviously this extended to the people involved with religion
->themselves. Everybody wanted to be in control of this super loyalty.
->The Kulturkampf in Bismark's time was just another manifestation of
->this struggle against the power of the Church, any Church, but
->especially the unified Roman Catholic Church and the Zentrum party to
->which so many of its members belonged. It is from this time that the
->concept of taxing the people who want to belong to a Church has its
->origins. Controlling the funding gives control to the state. The State
->can then dole out as it pleases and retain a measure of the upper
->hand. I believe ministers and priests actually get a salary and social
->security and all that.

->The way the state ran roughshod over the Church during the NAZI era.
->when they arrested cardinals, priests, nuns and ministers as needed,
->was not really resisted by the people because the state had lots of
->preparation in control of religion as the opium of the people. I know
->of only one instance where the people stood up to the state en masse
->during this time period and that was to protest the order of the
->Gauleiter in Oldenburg to remove the crosses from their public
->schools. That was a bit too much for the people of the
->Oldenburger-Muensterland and they marched by the thousands with
->pitchfork in hand. The order was quietly rescinded but the leaders of
->the revolt and the priests who called for it just as quietly
->disappeared during the night. The whole business was hushed up in a
->censored press lest anyone get the idea that united action was
->possible.

->It is still a fact of life in Germany that religion is taught in
->public school. Until recently there were 'katholische und evangelische
->Schulen'. I believe they've all been combined now and the students are
->taught the religion of their faith or maybe the majority. I don't know
->how they handle the Moslems who represent such a large percentage of
->the studentbody. I know for sure they are not too happy with the
->Church of Scientology and have passed all kinds of laws against their
->members having equal rights along with everybody else. Maybe something
->about not being able to control of their activities? The German state
->simply decided they are not a religion and that is that.

-Anyway, enough of that.

Good idea for the govenment to decide it was not a religion and about =

time as well. I agree.

Charles Hofmann

[Charles & Karen Hofmann]

(W. Fred

->>Rump) wrote:
>>That was the Pope's last gasp over the royalty in Europe.

>->>Don't forget the Inquisition either....

>The Inquisition makes for some good press, as do other signs of the
>times, but they are highly overrated in the general scheme of things.
>In retrospect we can see games of power played out by all parties and
>for the time this was quite normal.

Ja, still going on today.

F. Rump wrote:>That's not quite how it went. The Catholic Church was

only present in
>>>Muenster and did not want to talk directly to the Swedes who were
>>>meeting in Osnabrueck.

It was not only the Swedes for sure. You would have though the Catholic
Church would have wanted to work out something with the Swedes face to
face, as least I would have thought so. Seperation of Church and State
is of course a great thing as we know here in America, so maybe they
were trying to make a humble beginning.

Charles Hofmann aus Tucson Arizona
--

Researching names - Harding and Rowe in Kentucky, Haas and Oelschlegel

in New Orleans, and Bavaria, Linnemann or Lindemann in Hannover Germany,

Hasenwinkel and Grupin near Magdeburg Germany, Bekebrede, Schumacher,

and Esselmann in Nord Holland and West Hannover areas. Try our Hofmann

Family Home Page, there are many more names there and some good links to

[Gartrude]

Need information on the Ochs's from Prussia or Germany
Contact Tony DiTommaso
4110 E. Hillcrest Dr.
Yakima , Wa. 98901
Phone 509- 452- 5177