Script/nobility/history/ancestor puzzle
Harold
Using LDS, I have been aided enormously by many helpful, generous people.
Below are listed the two urls of primary interest:
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800cover.jpg
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800doc-sm.jpg
My ancestors had saved this document for over 200 years, so evidently it was
of particular value to them and I hoped it would localize the area in
Germany from which they came. My ancestor names, which I know about are
Schick, Kaefer, Lieprent, and Gotha. So I was hoping to find one
of those names in the 1800 document.
The second url above refers to an order issued on April 23, 1800. The order
was to be executed on June 1, 1800. It involved picking up somebody in
Weissensee on June 1 and taking them to Ebeleben.
It was suggested and proven that on April 23, 1800 a baby princess was born:
"In the year 1800 a princess (their first child) was born to the
Fürst of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen: Guenther Friedrich Carl I.
and his wife Caroline von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt.
| 1c) Emilie Friederike Charlotte (Sondershausen 23 Apr 1800-
| Detmold 2 Apr 1867); m.Arnstadt 23 Apr 1820 Leopold Fst zur Lippe
| (6 Nov 1796-1 Jan 1851)"
This information suggests that something important was happening on
WhitSunday June 1, 1800 in Ebeleben, possibly as a result of the April 23
birth.
I also learned that in 1797 Prince Friedrich August, son of Prince
Maximilian was born in Weissensee and baptized there the same day. Thus I
have been guessing/speculating that Prince Maximilian and his family may
have ben the one(s) taken to Ebeleben on June 1.
It is my understanding that line 5 of the order (2nd url above) is the clue
to the passenger on the coach. It reads "stellen und" followed by German
script. I notice that the single character following the word "damit" looks
like a "3". Does that mean that a family of 3 was in the coach? Also after
looking at old signatures, I am hazarding a guess that the last name on the
line starts with the letter "H". Could that be the name of the family? If
so, it doesn't sound like Maximilian to me. Any more suggestions as to what
is said on the order will be greatly appreciated.
Again I want to thank all of those who have helped me get this far.
Harold
clemens pongratz
>
> It is my understanding that line 5 of the order (2nd url above) is the clue
> to the passenger on the coach. It reads "stellen und" followed by German
> script. I notice that the single character following the word "damit" looks
> like a "3". Does that mean that a family of 3 was in the coach? Also after
> looking at old signatures, I am hazarding a guess that the last name on the
> line starts with the letter "H". Could that be the name of the family? If
> so, it doesn't sound like Maximilian to me. Any more suggestions as to what
> is said on the order will be greatly appreciated.
with "H" and this is oats.
There is no doubt that there are NO persons transported. The only
question is the definiton of the amount of oats, because this in to me
an unknown abbreviation.
In this command a tranport of 3 whatever amount of oats has do be done
at sunrise from Ottenhausen to Ebeleben with a one-horse carriage.
with greetings from Bavaria, Germany
--
Clemens Pongratz http://home.t-online.de/hierhin gehört nur das
wort"home"/clemens.pongratz
Dipl.Ing.agr. Familienforschung Pongratz -- Heimatforschung Kötzting
mailantwort an: clemens.pongratz@die Post=t-online.de
clemens pongratz
sorry, no persons:
the ordered day
the same locations
the confirmation of an arrival.
sorry no persons
Peter Flass
momentos of an important commission?
Harold wrote:
> My ancestors had saved this document for over 200 years, so evidently it was
> of particular value to them ...
Harold
Kafer. In the 1892 biography it was spelled exactly as Kafer-no umlaut.
Thank you
Harold
clemens pongratz <cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message
news:3D7A614C...@lycos.de...
Harold
people. My grandfather's father was born in 1799 and was said to be a
carpenter and farmer.
Thanks
Harold
Peter Flass <peter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3D7A6E6E...@yahoo.com...
clemens pongratz
> Is it possible that the H should be K.
mfg
Harold
seems unusual that the last four letters"afer" are identical to the last
four letters of an ancestor's name.
Also in words preceding the word Hafer there are two unidentified words. Can
you list the German letters for them? That is I wonder what the entire
script on that line reads beginning with " damit 3 xx xxxx Hafer". It
looks to my untrained eye that the two character word after "3" had been
crossed out, but I am curious as to what the writer tried to write.
I would assume it refers to the amount of oats such as 3 kilograms or 3
tons.
Is it possible that oats is used to celebrate WhitSunday, especially if it
is an event to honor a birth of a princess.
Thank you very much
Harold
<cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message news:3D7B6E99...@lycos.de...
Harold
text equivalent of the script on lines 1-5, beginning with the word,
"Verordnung........Hafer".
Thank you
Harold
Harold <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:gKKe9.4092$1C2.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
clemens pongratz
einen einspännigen Karren: (here you see a kapital "K")
urausbleibend nach Weissensee vom Magazin: (urausbleibend could mean
that the wagon had to be brought back to the start of the transport, I
do not know the exact terms of military formulars of that time)
stellen und damit 3 xxxx Hafer: xxxx could mean dztnn = dezitonnen = 300 kg
with greetings from Bavaria
clemens pongratz
> With the passageof time could a family name change from Hafer to Kafer. It
> seems unusual that the last four letters"afer" are identical to the last
> four letters of an ancestor's name.
from a depot by a cart. In this command it is told where to get the
cart, the oats and where to bring that stuff.
> Also in words preceding the word Hafer there are two unidentified words. Can
> you list the German letters for them? That is I wonder what the entire
> script on that line reads beginning with " damit 3 xx xxxx Hafer". It
> looks to my untrained eye that the two character word after "3" had been
> crossed out, but I am curious as to what the writer tried to write.
It seems that he wanted to write Ztr = Zentner = 50 kilogramms
it seems to me that he changed to dztn = Dezitonnen=Doppelzentner= 100
kilogramms
> Is it possible that oats is used to celebrate WhitSunday, especially if it
> is an event to honor a birth of a princess.
Oats has in Germany always been used exclusively as horsefood, which
seems to fit because the comand is signed by a major of the cavalry.
Oats has neither been used for bread( or human food) nor for producing
alkohol in Germany. So I am sorry this command seem to document only a
transport from oats from a depot to the hungry horses.
Harold
In this phrase:
> stellen und damit 3 xxxx Hafer: xxxx could mean dztnn = dezitonnen = 300
kg
> with greetings from Bavaria
total 300kg.?
Also where is the German word(s) meaning "greetings from Bavaria". I am
surprised and wonder what or why Bavaria would be involved in an order that
was issued in Sangerhausen.
Also if it is not too much effort, could you give your best estimate of the
signatures on both the cover page and the main order page.
Below are listed the two urls:
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800cover.jpg
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800doc-sm.jpg
Thanks very much
Harold
clemens pongratz <cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message
news:3D7CD611...@lycos.de...
Henning Boettcher
"clemens pongratz" <cpon...@lycos.de> schrieb
> Verordnung den 1. Juni xxx mit Tagesanbruch:
> einen einspännigen Karren: (here you see a kapital "K")
> urausbleibend nach Weissensee vom Magazin: (urausbleibend could
mean
> that the wagon had to be brought back to the start of the
transport, I
> do not know the exact terms of military formulars of that time)
> stellen und damit 3 xxxx Hafer: xxxx could mean dztnn =
dezitonnen = 300 kg
> with greetings from Bavaria
>
with dezi..., milli..., Kilo... and so on. Nobody used at that time
'1 ton' or '1 kilogramm' to weigh anything. They used instead
'Scheffel'/bushel and similar measures.
--
Kind regards
Henning Boettcher
Henning Boettcher
"Harold" <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb
>
> Also where is the German word(s) meaning "greetings from Bavaria".
I am
> surprised and wonder what or why Bavaria would be involved in an
order that
> was issued in Sangerhausen.
>
undersigned his posting with
'greetings from Bavaria'.
Greetings from Switzerland
Henning Boettcher
clemens pongratz
> At that time (1800) people had no knowledge about the metric system
> with dezi..., milli..., Kilo... and so on. Nobody used at that time
> '1 ton' or '1 kilogramm' to weigh anything. They used instead
> 'Scheffel'/bushel and similar measures.
In SCHMELLER, Bayerisches Wörterbuch from 1872 you find the use of
"zentner" = 100 pounds already found in use in the middle ages. But I
have to agree with you that in most areas there were other measures in use.
Following the French revolution in 1795, the neighbouring countries
introduced the metric system. But "dztn" could, if (d)ztn is read
correct, also stand for Doppelzentner=double Zentner, which would also
mean 100 kg.
BUT I still have to confess that the metric system plus
Thueringen/Germany plus June 1800 is problematic
clemens pongratz
>
>
> Does dezitonnen mean 300kg or is it 100kg and the previous "3" makes the
> total 300kg.?
But have in mind what Henning wrote, maybe he has a better idea which
measure could be ment.
the first signature is :
seiner Churfürstlichen Durchlaucht zu Sachsen bestallter Major der
Cavallerie und verordneter Comissarius des Thueringischen Kreises:
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
at the place of the second signature I can read:
Vitzthum Eckstett : no doubt with this letters
P-space- Lieut+ending : P,i,e,u + ending no doubt, L is guessed
In Bavaria, a Vitzdum has been ( from lat. vicedomus) the souvereign´s
substitute at the provincial governments. This need not to be the same
in Saxonia.
Also here, maybe somebody else has another idea, help ore other ideas
welcome.
"with greetings from Bavaria,Germany"
Harold
Greetings from California VBG=very big grin
Henning Boettcher <boet...@smile.ch> wrote in message
news:aliuhq$1pbgsh$1...@ID-25674.news.dfncis.de...
Peter Flass
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/dates.htm
...
1795
France officially adopted the metric system.
So it's at least possible. Was this Wuerttemberg?
Harold
Thank you so much. Unfortunately, I do not understand exacly your comments
about the second signature, where you write
> P-space- Lieut+ending : P,i,e,u + ending no doubt, L is guessed
Henning on Aug 31. His interpretation of the signature, and that of Mathieu
Vandenbosch are tabulated here:
Henning Boettcher: Gr(?) L(?)ie..z
Mathieu Vandenbosch Gr. Lieutz: = General Leutnant
Are you preferring the letter "P" to their first letter "G" in the first
two characters?
Ref.A--Transcript of text in this url:
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800cover.jpg
"Verordnung nach Ottenhaußen
I ... Ende... ...tzten Tages eingetroffen
Ebeleben den vitzthum
1 ten Juniy Eckstett
1800
Gr(?) L(?)ie..z "
Also in the second line of Ref A there are several dots, beginning with
"I....Ende...". Can you or anyone else fill them in? My "liberal" English
translation of Ref A is that the order of April 23 was properly executed on
June 1 and signed by the person in authority.However, I appreciate any
corrections or additions
Thank you for your generous help
Harold
clemens pongratz <cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message
news:3D7D09AC...@lycos.de...
Bernd J. Kaup
has taken you far too far.
The document was a pre-printed form, thus something of day-to-day use.
The amendments in content could be made easyly and quickly.
As far as the discussion on the content has grown, one can assume, that
your ancestor has kept the document for proof of fullfillment of duty.
You may appreciate that in 1800 taxes were paid at least partly by
"Hand- und Spanndienste" (personal and resources services). Thus the
document could proof that thee bearer had paid his taxes. (I assume that
for an average farmer this was the tax levy for say 10 years).
Such interpretation would one one hand verify why your ancestor kept it
like a family treasure but one the other hand would make your
interpretation a story from Alice's Wonderland.
mfg
bjk
clemens pongratz
"Verordnung nach Ottenhaußen
Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen
Ebeleben den vitzthum
1 ten Juniy Eckstett
1800
Pr: Lieutz
I think that the ending "z" is an abbreviation.
I think that it is no G: but a Pr: whatever it could mean.
mfg
--
Clemens Pongratz http://home.t-online.de/home/clemens.pongratz
Dipl.Ing.agr. Familienforschung Pongratz -- Heimatforschung Kötzting
mailantwort an: clemens....@t-online.de
Harold
I hope I haven't mislead you or others on this thread. For many years I have
been trying to determine the origins of my paternal grandparents. Searches
of census, ship travel, biographies, death records, etc have only resulted
in vague terms such as Germany, Prussia, and Saxony. Even the 1800 document
discussed in this thread contains the names of several towns spread over a
rather wide area. My MAIN HOPE in this thread is to find a Name of an
ancestor AND town of origin. The original interpretation of the document by
Henning indicated that a person was to be tranported but the later one by
Clemens indicated it was oats. Evidently there are only two names on the
documents (one on the cover page and one on the main (order) page.
Should I conclude that Ottenhausen is a probable town of origin of an
unknown ancestor?
How would you suggest I proceed? Contact the church/ or LDS/ or forget it.
Thanks to you and the others on this board
Harold
Bernd J. Kaup <bjk...@tiscalimail.de> wrote in message
news:3D7DC2B0...@tiscalimail.de...
Bernd J. Kaup
memory of an historic event is not decisive if you just extract names
and locations. But if you assume, that your ancestor was tthe obliged in
the document, there is not more than the location, which could lead you
to a new clue.
mfg
bjk
Harold
Thank you. again.
Can I conclude that Lieutz is a name or a title of some sort? If it is a
surname, is it possible that it is that of an ancestor?
As I have noted elsewhere one of my ancestors had the surname Lieprent? Or
is the prefix "Lie" common?
By the way thank you for the "Greetings from Bavaria". I immensely enjoyed
several days in Bavaria recently, and on June 28 I walked across the old
stone bridge in Regensburg, which is not too far from Kötzting.
Thanks
Harold
clemens pongratz <cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message
news:3D7E211C...@lycos.de...
clemens pongratz
> Can I conclude that Lieutz is a name or a title of some sort? If it is a
> surname, is it possible that it is that of an ancestor?
I think Lietz. is an abbreviation of the title Lieutnant
Please have in mind that the "z", in my opinion, is not a real "z" but
the abbreviation of the words ending.
> By the way thank you for the "Greetings from Bavaria". I immensely enjoyed
> several days in Bavaria recently, and on June 28 I walked across the old
> stone bridge in Regensburg, which is not too far from Kötzting.
I do my research on Kötzting´s history but I live next to Regensburg, so
you really have been close to me.
mfg
--
Clemens Pongratz http://home(dot)t-online(dot)de/home/clemens.pongratz
Dipl.Ing.agr. Familienforschung Pongratz -- Heimatforschung Kötzting
mailantwort an: clemens(dot)pongratz(at)t-online(dot)de
Manfred Haertel
> Clemens Pongratz http://home(dot)t-online(dot)de/home/clemens.pongratz
Mal 'ne dumme Frage so nebenbei: Gibt es einen triftigen Grund, warum
man nun auch seine URL so schreibt, daß sie nicht mehr maschinenmäßig
auswertbar ist? Will man keinen Traffic auf seiner Webseite mehr haben?
Bei Mails verstehe ich das Verfahren ja, wegen Spam, aber bei URLs macht
das keinen Sinn, außer daß es potentielle (menschliche) Besucher von der
Seite weghält. Ich habe jedenfalls keine Lust, die URL auch noch
umzueditieren.
--
Manfred Härtel mailto:Manfred...@rz-online.de
http://rz-home.de/mhaertel
clemens pongratz
> Mal 'ne dumme Frage so nebenbei: Gibt es einen triftigen Grund, warum
> man nun auch seine URL so schreibt, daß sie nicht mehr maschinenmäßig
> auswertbar ist? Will man keinen Traffic auf seiner Webseite mehr haben?
>
> Bei Mails verstehe ich das Verfahren ja, wegen Spam, aber bei URLs macht
> das keinen Sinn, außer daß es potentielle (menschliche) Besucher von der
> Seite weghält. Ich habe jedenfalls keine Lust, die URL auch noch
> umzueditieren.
Die Antwort ist relativ einfach, eine von mir nicht weiter überlegte
Überreaktion.
Danke für den Hinweis. Ich kämpfe seit einem halben Jahr mit SPAM der
übelsten Art und führe das in erster Linie auf meine Beiträge im Usenet
zurück. Daher jetzt meine LYCOS Anschrift im from: und meine
Originalanschrift maskiert im Visitenteil. Die Verschlüsselung der URL: s.o.
Die SPAMs an T-online sind zwar nicht weniger geworden, 95 % erwische
ich aber mit dem Filter; dafür bekomme ich jetzt bei LYCOS auch die ersten.
nochmals Danke
hoffentlich klappts
--
Clemens Pongratz http://home.t-online.de/home/clemens.pongratz
Dipl.Ing.agr. Familienforschung Pongratz -- Heimatforschung Kötzting
mailantwort an: clemens(dot)pongratz(dot)t-online.de
Harold
You are a lucky person to live in or near Regensburg. Sorry we missed you.We
enjoyed the scenery and the people as we were on a river cruise from
Budapest to Amsterdam. Also sorry we missed Friedrich Lehmkuehler * Wertheim
am Main * on July 2 as that day I got off the ship at Karlstadt and visited
the hometowns of my maternal grandparents in Oppenweiler/Reichenberg..
Didn't rejoin the ship until Miltenberg another beautiful.town.
As a sort of summary document, I am going to try to list the source
documents, the modern German text and the English translation. The help of
all who have contributed is greatly appreciated. Any correction or
modifications are especially welcome.
1. Source of cover page and main or order page:
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800cover.jpg
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800doc-sm.jpg
2. German text for cover page
"Verordnung nach Ottenhaußen
Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen
Ebeleben den vitzthum
1 ten Juniy Eckstett
1800
Pr: Lieutz
Note 1. It is believed that the first three words were written earlier on
the page as a reminder that the order had been sent, and the rest of the
words were written by a different person on June 1, 1800 to acknowledge
completion of the order.
Note 2. The "z" in Lieutz is probably an abbreviation , i.e. .several
letters after the "t" are omitted.. It is believed that Lieutz means
Lieutnant, and is a title not the name of a person.
Note 3, A better translation for dages may be Tages
3. English translation of cover page
Order sent to Ottenhausen
Order is completed at end of day
At Ebeleben in the district of Eckstadt
1st of June 1800
Pr: Lieutz
4. German text for main page
[Ottenhaussen]
Soll..... Kraft habender Commission, und zu Folge dieser
Verordnung den 1. Juni xxx mit Tages Anbruch:
einen einspännigen Karren
unausbleibend nach Weissensee vom Magazin:
stellen und damit 3 dztner Hafer:
bis nach Ebeleben bringen. Wornach
sich bey Vermeidung der Execution genau zu achten. Sign.
Sangerhausen am 23. April 1800
seiner Churfürstlichen Durchlaucht zu Sachsen bestallter Major der
Cavallerie und verordneter Comissarius des Thueringischen Kreises:
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
Note 1. Ottenhausen was too big to fit in the space after Soll, so was
written above. Evidently it refers to a person at Ottenhasuen
Note 2 3 dztner is 240-300kg; Another possibility is 3 dztnn =
dezitonnen = 300 kg where 1 dztnn= 100kg.
5.English translation of main or order page
Inasmuch as I have the authority, Person X in Ottenhausen must complete this
order beginning at dawn on June 1 to drive a horse and cart to the front of
the warehouse in Weissensee and transport 300kg oats to Ebeleben.
To avoid punishment this order must be followed exactly.
Signed at Sangerhausen 23rd of April 1800 by
Major of cavalry appointed by His Electorate Highness of Saxony
and commissioner/superintendent of the district of Thuringia
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
By the way what does "mfg" mean?
Thanks again
Harold
Pclemens pongratz <cpon...@lycos.de> wrote in message
news:3D7F67F1...@lycos.de...
Chiron Paixos
>
>> Clemens Pongratz http://home(dot)t-online(dot)de/home/clemens.pongratz
kann ich zwar auch nicht sagen. Normalerweise ist diese Schreibweise
in den de.admin.net-abuse.*-NGs üblich, damit nicht jemand
versehentlich diese Web-Site aufruft.
Gru?.
Chiron
Henning Boettcher
"Harold" <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb
> .................By the way what does "mfg" mean?
That means
'mit freundlichen Grüßen'/
with kind regards.
Harold
I was wondering if you or others agree with my summary translation of the
lower part of the cover page. I list below the German and English texts:
German text:
"Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen
Ebeleben den vitzthum
1 ten Juniy Eckstett
1800
Pr: Lieutz"
(Note: You, Henning, had used word "Tages", and Clemens used "dages"
English translation:
"Order is completed at end of day
At Ebeleben in the district of Eckstadt
1st of June 1800
Pr: Lieutz"
Thank you
Harold
Henning Boettcher <boet...@smile.ch> wrote in message
news:alquk2$d3fv$2...@ID-25674.news.dfncis.de...
Axel Bolle
Another thought for the cover page:
'Verordnung nach Ottenhaußen' is the original "title" of the document.
The second part:
'Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen
Ebeleben den vitzthum
1 ten Juniy Eckstett
1800
Pr: Lieutz'
Is the confirmation, that the order was completed, singed by the officer
in charge at Ebeleben.
As found in: Verdenhhalven, "Famileinkundliches Woerterbuch" 'Vitzthum'
in German is 'Statthalter'(governor) and Eckstett might be the name of
the officer, which had a rank as Pr(imier) Lieut(enant)
Greetings
Axel Bolle
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Harold [mailto:Sch...@worldnet.att.net]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. September 2002 09:49
An: GEN-...@rootsweb.com
Betreff: Re: Script/nobility/history/ancestor puzzle
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800cover.jpg
http://home.att.net/~members-forum/June1800doc-sm.jpg
==============================
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Gilbert von Studnitz
> 1 ten Juniy Eckstett
> 1800
>Eckstett might be the name of
>the officer, which had a rank as Pr(imier) Lieut(enant)
More likely is that family name of the officer was Vitzthum von Eckstaedt,
which is a currently existing noble family of counts.
Gilbert von Studnitz
Harold
years. I assume it would have been a great honor for a common person to have
a document signed by a noble person, namely
" Vitzthum von Eckstaedt,
Pr(imier) Lieut(enant) "
Thank you
Harold
Gilbert von Studnitz <gvon...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020913203724...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Harold
I've been wondering what the word means. It sounds like it means "First",
but my German translation of"first" shows zuerst or erst. Is "Pr(imier) " a
German word or Latin? Using an online translator for 6 languages and going
from English to the language, after inputting "First". none returned
"Pr(imier) " Thanks
Harold
"Axel Bolle" <ax...@bolle.de> wrote in message
news:000001c25b7b$53d22060$0100a8c0@AACHEN2A...
Gilbert von Studnitz
>but my German translation of"first" shows zuerst or erst. Is "Pr(imier) "
The French term Premier Lieutenant used at the time was soon converted to
Oberleutnant, which is still in use today.
Gilbert von Studnitz
Dieter Schimmelpfennig
> I've been wondering what the word means. It sounds like it means "First",
> but my German translation of"first" shows zuerst or erst. Is "Pr(imier) "
a
> German word or Latin?
correct written it`s "Premier". That`s french.
Sincerely,
Dieter Schimmelpfennig
--
Der Kreis Belgard-Schivelbein in Pommern http://www.belgard.org
Belgard-Schivelbein Mailingliste
http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/Kreis-Belgard
Die Genealogie der Familie Schimmelpfennig
http://www.genealogie-schimmelpfennig.de
Harold
titles? It is my understanding that the Napoleon armies went thru southern
Germany a few years earlier around 1796, but did not go thru northern
Germany till much later reaching Berlin in October 1806. I assume that June
1800 was a peaceful time in the Erfurt area.
As another question, when the order of April 23, 1800 was issued to person X
in Ottenhausen, could that person have been a civilian or member of the
military or either? At that time would there have been separate civil and
military functions, or did the military control everything?
Thanks again for all the help
Harold
"Dieter Schimmelpfennig" <die...@schimmelpfennigweb.de> wrote in message
news:005601c25ce7$f2bf9dc0$758807d5@Dieter...
Harold
military,
it seems important to establish whether Person X in Ottenhausen , is a
military person or civilian, because a military person would likely be a
transient in Ottenhausen, and would not be found in Ottenhausen church
records. Thus there would be no incentive to search Ottenhausen or
neighboring towns for my ancestors. However, if "X" is a civilian, then it
is likely that he has lived in Ottenhausen for some time. And I should be
encouraged to start hunting through Ottenhausen or neighboring towns for my
ancestors.
Therefore, as a first step I have I have reexamined my earlier translation.
In an earlier part of this thread, on Sept 12, at 12:49 am, in the message
by myself, Harold, I summarized my understanding of the entire 1800
document. In order to try to determine if Person X in Ottenhausen was a
military person or civilian, I have reexamined the signature page of Erdmann
Friedrich von Huetterheim on April 23, 1800.
The English translation seems to indicate he has ONLY a military title of
Major, but now after looking at the location of the phrase "und verordneter
Comissarius des Thueringischen Kreises", in the German version, I suspect
it means that Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim ALSO has authority over
civilians as a result of the phrase "commissioner/superintendent of the
district of Thuringia".
Since the earlier English translation made it look like Erdmann Friedrich
von Huetterheim was ONLY a major of Cavalry, then it would be considered
that Person X was a military person assigned to Ottenhausen for a relatively
short time. I would be discouraged to search any more for my ancestors in
the Ottenhausen area. But now with the new revised translation, it would
seem that Person X could be a civilian (and a long term resident ) of
Ottenhausen.
I hope I haven't gotten too verbose, but basically I wonder if my revised
English translation is more correct? I will display the German Signature
page and the first and revised English translations below.
Thank you
Harold
German Signature page
Sign.
Sangerhausen am 23. April 1800
seiner Churfürstlichen Durchlaucht zu Sachsen bestallter Major der
Cavallerie und verordneter Comissarius des Thueringischen Kreises:
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
First English translation of Signature page
Signed at Sangerhausen 23rd of April 1800 by
Major of cavalry appointed by His Electorate Highness of Saxony
and commissioner/superintendent of the district of Thuringia
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
Revised English signature page
Signed at Sangerhausen 23rd of April 1800 by
Major of cavalry and commissioner/superintendent of the district of
Thuringia
as appointed and decreed respectively by His Electorate Highness of Saxony
Erdmann Friedrich von Huetterheim
Harold <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:hueh9.14784$1C2.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Henning Boettcher
"Harold" <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:uE2h9.30234$jG2.2...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Thank you for the help
> I've been wondering what the word means. It sounds like it means
"First",
> but my German translation of"first" shows zuerst or erst. Is
"Pr(imier) " a
> German word or Latin? Using an online translator for 6 languages
and going
> from English to the language, after inputting "First". none
returned
> "Pr(imier) " Thanks
> Harold
You must pay attention to the fact that the document was written two
hundred years ago!
Words and spellings have changed since 1800.
At that time many french words were used in Germany especially in
military words.
'Premier' seems to be such a word. 100 years ago you could find
Premierlieutenant, which is now Oberleutnant. 'Premier' is derived
from the Latin word 'primus' which means 'the first'.
No translating machine will accept or output all the words that are
200 years old, it knows only those words that did not change in
spelling and meaning in the meantime.
Harold
Thank you for the explanation about the French influence on words 200 yrs
ago. That makes me wonder if the word "dages" is a similar case? I haven't
been able to find an interpretation for the German word "dages". I am still
interested in what it means and what the most accurate English tranlation
would be for the cover page. In an earlier part of this thread on Sept 13, I
had posted the following:
>German text:
>"Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen
>Ebeleben den vitzthum
> 1 ten Juniy Eckstett
> 1800
Pr: Lieutz"
>(Note: You, Henning, had used word "Tages", and Clemens used "dages"
>English translation:
>"Order is completed at end of day
>At Ebeleben in the district of Eckstadt
>1st of June 1800
> Pr: Lieutz"
Is the German line "Ist Ende(r) gesetzten dages eingetroffen" best
translated as the English "Order is completed at end of day" or is there a
better tranlation?
Thanks again
Harold
.
Henning Boettcher <boet...@smile.ch> wrote in message
news:amnldm$7jisj$8...@ID-25674.news.dfncis.de...
Henning Boettcher
'Tages'. I cannot see any connection to a French word.
'dages' and 'Tages' are the genitive form of 'Tag', in English 'of
the day'.
(Written is 'dages'.)
The sentence 'Ist Ende ...tzten dages eingetroffen' ist not
complete: any subject is missing.
'eintreffen' as the infinitive of 'eingetroffen' has two English
meanings: to reach or to happen. So the sentence can be translated
as
Something or somebody has reached (a place or town) at the end of
the ??? day.
or as
Something did happen at the end of the ??? day.
What could be the meaning of ??? ?
The first part of this word cannot be read because of the big ink
blot.
The word could be 'letzten'. But 'gesetzen' seems to fit better to
the scan, a slight loop can be seen at the left lower edge of the
ink blot.
'letzten' would mean 'last',
'gesetzten' would mean 'commited', 'ordered', 'prescribed', 'fixed'.
--
Kind regards
Henning Boettcher
"Harold" <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb
Celia Mitschelen
found the town of Teufringen written very clearly numerous times in the
church records. Always with a T. I could never find it even in a good atlas
index then we took a trip to Germany and we were being driven around to the
various towns we had been reading about and I was completely taken by
surprise to find the town is Deufringen.
Since I expanded my research I have found documents spelled that way but it
took me a while. There are other letters that were enterchangeable as well.
P/B, C/K, V/F and I/J are others. There are a number of books that note
these pairs.
Celia
"Harold" <Sch...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:iK%l9.62436$1C2.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...