Hamburg>Marseilles>US route
Michael Palmer
------------ not responsible for any text above this line ------------
On 12 Nov 2000, Margare...@washcoll.edu (Margaret Fallaw) wrote:
> A cousin, with whom I correspond by e-mail, has been using the CD
> "Passenger and Immigration Lists: Germans to America," 1850-1874, to find
> our mutual German ancestors who came to the US in the 19th century. One
> of my gggrandmothers, Anna (Tickfer) RADKE, was shown arriving (with 5
> children, ages 4-11) on June 23, 1863. The vessel was the Teutonia, Capt.
> H. Taube, manifest # 00010107, and they were steerage passengers. The
> port of arrival evidently was not shown, but the port of embarkation is
> given as Marseilles. Evidently their place of birth or last residence was
> not shown either, though we are pretty sure they came from Posen,
> Prussia, Germany (now in Poland), perhaps from the vicinity of
> Schneidemuhl (now Pila), near which she and her husband Lorentz RADKE
> were born. At some point, they settled in/near Logansport, Cass County,
> Indiana, where they had more children.
>
> What mystifies us (among other things) is that Marseilles is given as the
> port of embarkation. I did a little Internet research and found good info
> on the Teutonia, then checked out several other vessels owned by the same
> line, plus others bringing German immigrants to the US. The routing, esp.
> in this period, is often shown as Hamburg - Marseilles - New York.
>
> In the absence of any other info, should we assume that this Radke group
> landed in NY?
>
> One would think that Germans would board these ships in Hamburg (even
> though Posen was quite distant), but did some make their way to
> Marseilles for some reason unknown to us (like cheaper fares, shorter
> voyage) to board there? They couldn't fill their space with passengers
> boarding in Hamburg only? If they did board in Hamburg, would the port of
> embarkation be shown as Marseilles simply because that was the last
> foreign port visited before landing in the US?
>
> Why did so many ships make what seems to have been a roundabout voyage,
> from Hamburg to Marseilles and then to the US? It's a long way around
> from Hamburg and into the Mediterranean. But there must have been a
> reason (probably economic?) or they wouldn't have done it. How long would
> it have taken from Hamburg to Marseilles? (The Teutonia of this period
> seemed to have been a sort of hybrid steam-sailing vessel--or am I wrong
> on this?) How long from Marseilles to NY?
>
> If, indeed, a number of Germans were boarding at Marseilles, what methods
> of transportation (train? boats on rivers and canals, or both?) would
> they have used? What might the route(s) have been for those coming from
> Posen? How long might such a journey have taken? It seems a terribly long
> distance, with numerous geographic obstacles, especially for a mother and
> five young children.
>
> Anna's husband, Lorentz, does not seem to have come with his family, but
> he has not yet been located on any passenger list either. He may well
> have gone earlier, and his family may well have traveled with relatives
> or friends whose surnames we don't know. (But there seem to be none with
> her family surname.) Or he may well turn up as having been with them once
> we get hold of a copy of the actual passenger list rather than finding
> the passengers one by one on the CD. There are other possibilities about
> how and when he got to the US, but that's for another posting.
>
> Were passenger lists/manifests kept by the shipping company also, and if
> so, do such survive from this Hamburg-America line? Or are the arrival
> records the only ones?
>
> My cousin also found passenger information for another set of my
> gggrandparents who came from Germany in the same period. (One of their
> daughters, born in Indiana after their 1856 voyage, married a Radke son,
> Heinrich/Henry, who was 7 when he came to the US in 1863.) They were
> Michael and Anna Fredersdorf (really supposed to be Fredericksdorf), who
> came with a baby and an adult male who was probably Michael's brother.
> The CD info for them says specifically that their last residence was in
> Posen. They came on the ship Howard, arriving Nov. 15, 1856, captain
> "J.H. Neimann," manifest # 00008777. They also traveled in steerage, and
> their port of embarkation is also shown as Marseilles. If they really
> started from Marseilles, one would think that the journey there from
> Posen might have been even more difficult seven years earlier. Another
> Fredersdorf/Fredericksdorf, Rosalie, age 24, evidently came alone on the
> ship Schiller, arriving on June 29, 1863, Capt. C. Bahr, manifest
> #00010110. We don't know how or whether she might be related
> (considerably younger sister of Michael?), but it's interesting that she
> arrived, also from Marseilles, only a few days later than the Radke
> group.
New versions of consumer products are always advertised as containing all
the things consumers loved about the old product with the addition of
improvements that consumers cannot do without. In the case of _Germans to
America_, however, the CD-ROM edition contains all the errors of the
printed edition, and adds some new errors of its own. Among these
bugs^H^H^H^Hundocumented attributes are tendencies (1) in almost every case
to omit the port of arrival, and (2) in many cases to give the incorrect
port of origin, even when the printed edition gives the correct port.
Marseilles is a red herring: in all three cases above, the printed
edition of _Germans to America_, as well as contemporary New York
newspapers, give the port of origin not as Marseilles but as Hamburg:
1. According to contemporary New York newspapers, the Hamburg-America
line steamship TEUTONIA, Capt. Taube, arrived at New York on 22 June
1863, from Hamburg 4 June, via Southampton 8 June, with merchandise
and 584 passengers, to Kunhardt & Co. "Had bad weather; passed Cape
Race 17th, in lat 47, lon 44, passed icebergs". The printed edition
of the passenger manifest for this voyage, dated 23 June 1863, gives
the following Radke family group:
Radke, Anna, age 32 years, female
Ernestine, 11, female
Heinr[ich], 7, male
Andreas, 6, male
Joh[ann], 5, male
Rob[er]t, 4, male
[Ira A. Glazier and P. William Filby, ed., _Germans to America;
Lists of Passengers Arriving at U.S. Ports_, vol. 15 (Wilmington,
Delaware: Scholarly Resources, 1991), p. 21.]
2. According to contemporary New York newspapers, the Hamburg ship
HOWARD, Niemann, master, arrived at New York on 14 November 1856
(passenger manifest dated 15 November), from Hamburg, with
merchandise and 241 passengers, to W. F. Schmidt & Co. "Had 26
deaths during the passage. Oct 11, experienced a gale from NW, split
sails &." The printed edition of the passenger manifest for this
voyage, dated 15 November 1856, gives the following Fredersdorf family
group:
Fredersdorf, Michael, 42, male, farmer, from Posen
Anna, 34, female
Franz, 39, male, farmer
Apolonia, 6 months, female
[Ira A. Glazier and P. William Filby, ed., _Germans to America;
Lists of Passengers Arriving at U.S. Ports_, vol. 10 (Wilmington,
Delaware: Scholarly Resources, 1990), p. 307.]
3. According to contemporary New York newspapers, the Bremen bark
SCHILLER, Bahr, master, arrived at New York on 28 June 1863, 48 days
from Hamburg, with merchandise and 62 passengers, to R. M. Sloman &
Edge [Edye]. The printed edition of the passenger manifest for this
voyage, dated 29 June 1863, gives the following Fredersdorf listing:
Fredersdorf, Rosalie, 24, female
[Ira A. Glazier and P. William Filby, ed., _Germans to America;
Lists of Passengers Arriving at U.S. Ports_, vol. 15 (Wilmington,
Delaware: Scholarly Resources, 1991), p. 26.]
The abstracts in the published and CD-ROM editions of _Germans to America_
are notoriously inaccurate, so you should check the information against the
original passenger manifests, as follows:
1. SS TEUTONIA
a) New York passenger arrival manifest dated 23 June 1863:
National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, roll 230; you can
also borrow a copy of this microfilm through any LDS (Mormon)
Family History Center (Family History Library microfilm
#0175586).
b) Hamburg passenger departure list dated approximately 4 June
1863, Direct Lists, Bd. 17: Family History Library microfilm
#0472894.
2. Hamburg ship HOWARD
a) New York passenger arrival manifest dated 15 November 1856:
National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, roll 168; you can
also borrow a copy of this microfilm through any LDS Family
History Center (Family History Library microfilm #0175524).
b) Hamburg passenger departure list, Direct Lists, Bd. 10: Family
History Library microfilm #0470838.
3. Bremen bark SCHILLER
a) New York passenger arrival manifest dated 29 June 1863:
National Archives Microfilm Publication M237, roll 230 (see
under SS TEUTONIA directly above).
b) Hamburg passenger departure list: see under SS TEUTONIA
directly above.
Note that the Hamburg passenger departure lists, which are arranged
chronologically by date of departure, contain information not included in
the New York passenger arrival lists, in particular the place of last
residence in Germany, which if not the passenger's place of birth can often
provide a clue as to where the passenger originated.
Since Lorenz Radke does not appear to have accompanied his wife and
children on the TEUTONIA in June 1863, assume, at least initially, that his
family followed in his footsteps, and that he therefore preceded them
through Hamburg. A number of indexes, both modern and contemporary, exist
for the Hamburg passenger lists, the most important of which are:
1. The 'Kl"uber Kartei' consists of two overlapping card indexes
covering Direct Lists for 1850-1871 and Indirect Lists for 1854-1867.
The Family History Library microfilmed the Kartei in 1994, and you can
borrow copies of these microfilms through any LDS Family History
Center: Family History Library microfilms #'s 1964325 and 2014216
contain the "Radke" listings.
2. The contemporary indexes to the Hamburg passenger lists are arranged
alphabetically by the first letter of each passenger's surname,
thereunder chronologically by date of departure. The following is a
list of Family History Library microfilm numbers, and the volumes of
the contemporary indexes they contain:
film # vol. # period covered
0473070 Bd. 2 1857 Feb - 1858 Nov
0473071 Bd. 3 1859 Feb - 1861 Nov
Bd. 4 1862 - 1863
If you identify Lorenz in one of these indexes, see
http://www.genealogienetz.de/gene/misc/emig/ham_pass.html to determine
which Family History Library microfilm contains a copy of the relevant
passenger departure list.
Of the vessels concerned, the steamship TEUTONIA was built by Caird & Co,
Greenock, and was launched 4 August 1856 for the Hamburg- Brasilianische
Packetschiffahrt-Gesellschaft. 2,693 tons; 86 x 12 meters/282.1 x 39.4
feet (length x beam); clipper bow, 1 funnel, 3 masts; iron construction,
screw propulsion, service speed 10 knots; accommodation for 50 passengers
in 1st class, 136 in 2nd class, and 310 in steerage. 21 October 1858,
purchased by HAPAG (Hamburg-America Line) as a reserve ship. 15 July 1859,
first voyage, Hamburg-Southampton-New York. November 1867, first voyage,
Hamburg-New Orleans (seasonal service). 31 May 1870, last voyage,
Hamburg-Havre-New York; subsequently in Hamburg-New Orleans service.
1872, compound engines by Reiherstiegwerft, Hamburg. 1877, purchased by
the Dominion Line. 13 March 1877, first voyage, Liverpool-New Orleans. 22
August 1878, first voyage, Liverpool- Quebec-Montreal (several Canadian
voyages). 1883, purchased by Thomas Baker, Cardiff. 1884, sold to P.
Gaggino, Genoa, and renamed REGINA. 1885, sold to Canestro? Bonino, Genoa.
1887, sold to F. Costa, Genoa. 1889, renamed PIEMONTESE. 1890, renamed
CITTA DI SAVONA. 1891, sold to C. Schiaffino, Genoa, and renamed MENTANA.
1894, scrapped in Italy [Arnold Kludas and Herbert Bischoff, _Die Schiffe
der Hamburg-Amerika Linie_, Bd. 1: 1847-1906 (Herford: Koehler, 1979), p.
26; Noel Reginald Pixell Bonsor, _North Atlantic Seaway; An Illustrated
History of the Passenger Services Linking the Old World with the New_ (2nd
ed.; Jersey, Channel Islands: Brookside Publications), vol. 1 (1975), pp.
388-389; vol. 2 (1978), p. 805]. Pictured (as a HAPAG steamship) in
Michael J. Anuta, _Ships of Our Ancestors_ (Menominee, MI: Ships of Our
Ancestors, 1983), p. 321, courtesy of the Peabody Essex Museum, East India
Square, Salem, MA 01970, http://www.pem.org, from whom you can obtain a
high-quality reproduction.
The Hamburg ship HOWARD was built at L"ubeck by Hans Jacob Albrecht Meyer,
for his own account, in 1846. 227 Commerzlasten. On 2 February 1846, the
vessel was purchased new from the builder by the Hamburg shipowner Robert
Miles Sloman, who employed her almost exclusively in the Hamburg-New York
trade.
Masters:
1846-1849 - Paul Nickels Paulsen
1849-1852 - J. H. Jacobs
1852-1856 - J. H. Niemann
1857-1858 - F. W. E. Wolter
1858-1860 - F. C. L. Br"usch
The HOWARD was laid up in Hamburg for 13 months in 1860-1861. She was sold
foreign early in 1861 (Hamburg pass surrendered on 20 April 1861), and
renamed CAESAR (Capt. Zacharisson) [Walter Kresse, ed., _Seeschiffs-
Verzeichnis der Hamburger Reedereien, 1824-1888_, Mitteilungen aus dem
Museum f"ur Hamburgische Geschichte, N. F., Bd. 5 (Hamburg: Museum f"ur
Hamburgische Geschichte, 1969), vol. 2, p. 208; Ernst Hieke, _Rob. M.
Sloman jr., errichtet 1793_, Ver"offentlichungen der
Wirtschaftsgeschichtlichen Forschungsstelle e.V., Hamburg, Bd. 30 (Hamburg:
Verlag Hanseatischer Merkur, 1968), p. 371, no. 21. I attach a
black-and-white scan, in .JPG format, of an oil painting of the HOWARD by
Lorenz Petersen, from the 1840's, as reproduced in J"urgen Meyer, _Hamburgs
Segelschiffe 1795-1945_ (Norderstedt: Egon Heinemann, 1971), p. 17.
The Bremen bark SCHILLER was built at Motzen, on the Weser River, by
William Waller of the shipbuilding firm of D. Oltmann W[it]we, for the
Bremen firm of D. H. W"atjen & Co (the second of three vessels of this name
to belong to the company), and was launched on 21 August 1861. 265
Commerzlasten / 590 tons register; 42,7 x 9,6 x 5,1 meters (length x beam
x depth of hold). Like the first SCHILLER, she was engaged primarily in
the transport of emigrants to the United States, returning with a cargo of
either tobacco or cotton. Her captains were Claus Bahr, from Vegesack (who
had been the last master of the first SCHILLER), Windeler Wischhusen, from
Mittelsburen, and H. Gloistein. In 1878, the SCHILLER was sold to the
shipbuilding firm of H. F. Ulrichs, in Vegesack; as Ulrichs had just built
a new, iron bark, also named SCHILLER, for W"atjen, this sale most probably
represented at least partial payment for the new vessel. The new master
was H. Fettjuch. In 1883, the SCHILLER was sold to W. Maack, of Rostock,
and Jacob Zeplien, of Wustrow; the new master was Albert Zeplien. On 5
October 1889, the SCHILLER, bound from Savannah for Buenos Aires with a
cargo of wood, was severely damaged, and on 8 October 1889, entered the
harbor at St. George, in the Bermuda Islands, where on 10 February 1890,
she was condemned and dismantled [Peter-Michael Pawlik, _Von der Weser in
die Welt; Die Geschichte der Segelschiffe von Weser und Lesum und ihrer
Bauwerften 1770 bis 1893_, Schriften des Deutschen Schiffahrtsmuseums, Bd.
33 (Hamburg: Kabel, c1993), p. 456, no. 78].
Michael Palmer
--
Michael Palmer
Claremont, California
mpa...@panix.com
------------ not responsible for any text below this line ------------
Jan Hassebroek
found in an article in the german language: KOLON/KOLONAT
.......Jan Hindrik Romberg geborener Bosch, KOLON in der Bauerschaft
.......dann der Name des Vaters KOLON Albert Hasebrock
.......Meiers KOLONAT/Romberg Erbe
Thanks you beforehand/JAN
Jan Jacobus Hassebroek, St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada.
Web:http://www3.sympatico.ca/jan.hassebroek/mypage.html
SEARCHING: Bakker, den Houter, Dijkman,Haasbroek(SA/NL)
Hassebroek(sp), Heine, Hermanni, Marais, Munnik, Romberg.
heikoahlers
'colonist'. A 'colonat' would then be the farm, usually given to him bij the
feudal ruler.
Regards
Heiko
Jan Hassebroek schrieb in Nachricht <3A23AA54...@sympatico.ca>...
Roy Johnson
Schnake home page for a historical explanation.
Go to http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~schnake/story/
Scroll down and click on "social conditions". Read that section. It will
give a historical explanation of the term and how it developed. It was
often spelled "colon" or "colonus" in the original Latin spelling.
There's quite a bit more on history and background that might be useful to
you also. You might want to explore the whole site.
Roy Johnson
Researching Schnake worldwide
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~schnake
"heikoahlers" <heiko...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:900ap4$4to$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
Jan Hassebroek
Many thanks for the quick response to my inquiry. Special thanks to
Roy Johnson for his URL/JAN