vom/von
Eric Jenkins
last name: such as my grandmother's maiden name, vom Steeg. Thanks.
Arie
news:voomu8l...@corp.supernews.com...
> Could someone tell me the meaning of the word 'von' or 'vom' in front of a
> last name: such as my grandmother's maiden name, vom Steeg. Thanks.
>
is a grammatical one.
Arie
phom
In Germany, the "von" meant that the bearer of the name belonged to
nobility. Although Arie is right is his statement about the difference
between "von" (grammatically: the fourth case in declination) and "vom"
(grammatically: the third case), in most areas of Germany, the "vom"
indicated a lower class origin of the person, not a noble family.
In other words, you have to know where the geographic origin of the family
is.
Famous example: The composer Ludwig van Beethoven (the "van" is the Dutch
couterpart of the German "von") was very upset when he learned that he is
not of noble origin - his name originated in the Netherlands.
Peter
"Arie" <Gomp...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:3f8c6ea3$0$58710$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Arie
news:%efjb.103623$6C4.73927@pd7tw1no...
Thanks for your comment. Although my German is more than average I had no
idea of the distinction you described. I stored it on my own "HD".
Arie
Vande Kerckhove Walter
From Belgium. Nowadays there is still a person named Ludwig Van Beethoven
who got a red card when he gave his name to the referee when he was playing
football.
"phom" <ph...@shawlink.ca> schreef in bericht
news:%efjb.103623$6C4.73927@pd7tw1no...
@zonnet.nl Herman van der Woude
[snip]
| Famous example: The composer Ludwig van Beethoven (the "van" is the
| Dutch couterpart of the German "von") was very upset when he learned
| that he is not of noble origin - his name originated in the
| Netherlands.
|
| Peter
To be correct: his name originated from the Austrian Netherlands
(nowadays better known as Belgium)! he Dutch "van", though the correct
translation of the German "von", does not indicate any noble origin like
it's German 'brother' does.
So, no 'noble past' for my ancestors ;-(
--
Herman van der Woude
mailto : hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl
(spaces added to avoid SPAM/spaties toegevoegd om SPAM te vermijden)
Vande Kerckhove Walter
family, but the Germans beleived it until they discovered he was not ...
"Herman van der Woude" <hvdwoude @ zonnet.nl> schreef in bericht
news:q%gjb.1813$n03.206159@zonnet-reader-1...
Gilbert von Studnitz
>nobility.<
Not in all cases. There are a large number of burgher/farmer families from
North and Central Germany which carry the "von", and have done so for many
generations, but were never noble and make no pretense to be so.
> in most areas of Germany, the "vom"
>indicated a lower class origin of the person, not a noble family.<
"vom" is a contraction of "von dem", and both can be found as the noble article
for a small number of noble families.
Gilbert von Studnitz
Eloy van Herckenrode
Lots of van's here.
D. Stussy
> >In Germany, the "von" meant that the bearer of the name belonged to
> >nobility.<
>
> Not in all cases. There are a large number of burgher/farmer families from
> North and Central Germany which carry the "von", and have done so for many
> generations, but were never noble and make no pretense to be so.
Not in all German speaking areas. In Switzerland, there are a few who have a
"von" construct to their surnames yet no noble class has existed for centuries
(the last remnant of such, the Austrian Habsburgs, being kicked out in the
latter half of the 1300s).
Oli Kai Paulus
> Not in all cases. There are a large number of burgher/farmer families from
> North and Central Germany which carry the "von", and have done so for many
> generations, but were never noble and make no pretense to be so.
I have heard this argument many times now but I always wonder: what's
the definition of nobility after all? I know that there's a German
site (forgot the URL) that tries to list all surnames with "von" of
families that are *not* of noble descent. What do these people check
to classify names and families? I have only a vague idea of nobility:
a king is most likely noble and so is his family. His highest
"employees" like counts, dukes, etc. and their families will be noble,
too. Where does this stop? Or: when does it stop? Can nobility be
assigned and revoked at any time? By whom? How is nobility recognized
if not by names: the shape of noses?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oli Kai Paulus Bergstraße 18 +49.30.28390731
o....@t-online.de D-10115 Berlin +49.172.3914294
Eric Jenkins
Thanks.
"Oli Kai Paulus" <o....@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:3F8FBE4...@t-online.de...
Oli Kai Paulus
German. The site also answers some of my other questions. Oli
Eric Jenkins schrieb:
--
Gilbert von Studnitz
>"von" construct to their surnames yet no noble class has existed for
>centuries
>(the last remnant of such, the Austrian Habsburgs, being kicked out in the
latter half of the 1300s).>
Wrong. There are a number of Swiss families who legitimately bear their "von"
as an indicator of their inclusion in the Nobility. Not the Swiss nobility, as
indeed there is none as such, but the Imperial nobility or as given by another
German ruler to a resident of Helvetia. Generally such ennoblements were given
to the patrician families of the larger Swiss cities.
Gilbert von Studnitz
Gilbert von Studnitz
> I know that there's a German
>site (forgot the URL) that tries to list all surnames with "von" of
>families that are *not* of noble descent.<
try http://home.foni.net/~adelsforschung/
>What do these people check
to classify names and families?<
There is no fully comprehensive listing of all German noble families. The
series Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels as well as it's predecessor, the
Gothaische Genealogische Taschenbücher, are as close as you come.
< I have only a vague idea of nobility:
a king is most likely noble and so is his family. His highest
"employees" like counts, dukes, etc. and their families will be noble,
too. Where does this stop?>
at the Briefadel created in 1918.
<Or: when does it stop? Can nobility be
assigned and revoked at any time?<
There are a variety of strict laws concerning all this, which varied from realm
to realm.
<How is nobility recognized
if not by names: the shape of noses?>
No more than you are. Study history and sociology.
Gilbert von Studnitz
D. Stussy
Not wrong, but exactly my point - as of the 1300's, there was no Swiss
nobility. I have found no examples of what you cite, but I can produce an
example of a case where the "von" prefix was DROPPED by the 14th century: The
surname Tschudi (in GL). Many other Glarner surnames appear to have dropped it
around then as well. I also find no adoption of "von" by those Swiss who
obtained foreign title or rank (apparently, foreign title doesn't count). For
that, I shall give you one of my own: Rudolf Stussi, Mayor of Zurich until
1443; knighted by a German Kaiser in 1433. [Although knighthood is generally
the lowest form of nobility, it still counts..., and granted also that this is
after the period where it was dropped....]
Perhaps the tradition varied according to region and simply didn't penetrate
into the Forest Cantons.
Gilbert von Studnitz
> Rudolf Stussi, Mayor of Zurich until
>1443; knighted by a German Kaiser in 1433. [Although knighthood is generally
>the lowest form of nobility, it still counts..
Actually an untitled noble is the lowest grade of noble, a hereditary Knight,
much like an "Edler", is an augmentation to that grade, though still counted
among the untitled nobles.
<>as of the 1300's, there was no Swiss
>nobility. I have found no examples of what you cite,>
As to that, go to the following site and then let us hear if you have changed
your opinion:
http://members.tripod.com/~sirap76/nobility.html
G. v. Studnitz
Gilbert von Studnitz
D. Stussy
As I have said, I have not seen it. I didn't say that such didn't exist;
just that it is not within my experience, and that my experience indicates a
contrary position - yet you dared call me wrong?
The page you indicated above had for the Canton that I study (and another):
"These cantons never had a nobility of right...." (i.e. it did not exist).
The comments regarding Zurich (more so for the city than the Canton) seem wrong
in light of the guild revolt circa 1350 where the entire structure of
government was changed.
Since we are talking ONLY about the GERMAN-SPEAKING areas, I ignore the French,
Italian, and Romanisch speaking cantons.
As for my position, what it basically said for those G-S areas, "nobility" had
basically been done away with, except for some historical remnants. In some
cases, the only "nobility" that existed was the holding of the top public
offices or the occupational guildmasters, neither of which are considered such
by the standards of other countries (certainly not birthright and not really
"by integration"). That doesn't lead me to change my position where I said
that it had effectively been done away with.