Dark skinned race?
Jim Elbrecht
I just looked at some pages from the rosters of the 82nd ILL Regiment
of (American) Civil War Soldiers.
One of the columns in the description of these soldiers is
'complexion'. All I have is two pages-- 40 members of Co K, and 33
members of Co. F. They were fillied out by two different people, so
the terminology varies-- but I found this curious;( this unit was
referred to as "the German Regiment"- so most of the soldiers are
foriegn born)
Co. K-
Light- 8, Healthy- 24, Dark- 7 (a couple were blank)
The soldiers described as 'dark' were born in (2)Prussia, Saxony,
Poland, & Chicago.- A deep tan was probably not the cause of their
dark skin because one was a clerk, one a hatter, and one a tailor.
Co F (the last page- so only 33)
Sallow- 4, Light- 3, Fair- 13, Dark- 2, Brown- 6
The 'Brown' soldiers were born in (2) Alsace, (2) Baden, Germany, &
Bavaria.
This suprised me because, in my ignorance, I thought most of these
folks would be light skinned. Was there a dark race of Germans?
The soldiers that drew my attention to these pages were Henry
Elbrecht, who was described as 'dark' (listed as white on later census
records) b. in Germany-- and August RECHT described as 'brown' b. in
Leipzig(?), Saxony(?) (I think-- it looks like Siepzig, Saxon )
thanks,
jim
Researching;
Eggers, Elbrecht, Herchenroder and Witt
all in NY before 1900
Karen Donohue Pollock
I have a similar question. One of my ancestors, Johann Roesch, supposedly
from Ensfeld Bavaria was referred to as "black German" - a description I
believe refers to the area of Germany he was from. Does this sound right
to anyone?
Karen
In article <5vm8tr$p...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
elbr...@worldnet.att.net (Jim Elbrecht) wrote:
> Elbrecht, who was described as 'dark' (listed as white on later census
> records) b. in Germany-- and August RECHT described as 'brown' b. in
> Leipzig(?), Saxony(?) (I think-- it looks like Siepzig, Saxon )
>
>
> thanks,
> jim
> Researching;
> Eggers, Elbrecht, Herchenroder and Witt
> all in NY before 1900
--
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh
--Lazarus Long
Karen Donohue Pollock
g...@pathway.net
Mona J HOUSER
Let me add my grandfather to the question here. My father said his dad
was called "schwartze Hussern"--not sure how to spell it because I never
saw it written. He had black hair and fairly dark skin, but I was never
sure whether this term was a description of his coloring, his
personality, his temperament, or just what.
On 17 Sep 1997 01:53:34 GMT g...@pathway.net (Karen Donohue Pollock)
writes:
%I have a similar question. One of my ancestors, Johann Roesch,
%supposedly
%from Ensfeld Bavaria was referred to as "black German" - a description
%I
%believe refers to the area of Germany he was from. Does this sound
%right
%to anyone?
%
%Karen
%
%
%
%
%In article <5vm8tr$p...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
%elbr...@worldnet.att.net (Jim Elbrecht) wrote:
%
%> Elbrecht, who was described as 'dark' (listed as white on later
%census
%> records) b. in Germany-- and August RECHT described as 'brown' b. in
%> Leipzig(?), Saxony(?) (I think-- it looks like Siepzig, Saxon )
%>
%>
%> thanks,
%> jim
%> Researching;
%> Eggers, Elbrecht, Herchenroder and Witt
%> all in NY before 1900
%
%--
%One man's theology is another man's belly laugh
% --Lazarus Long
%
%Karen Donohue Pollock
%g...@pathway.net
%
%
Oliver Weiss
Apart from skin color - we do have people with olive complexion, you know,
especially in the Southern part of the country - "black" in this case may
mean a political coloration, i.e. conservative, christian. (If we are
talking about a 150 years or so ago, that obviously is not the case).
People in Germany often refer to the color of the *hair* when they call
someone a "black" or a "brown" person.
Karen Donohue Pollock <g...@pathway.net> wrote in article
<5vnd6u$2mv$1...@207.76.141.58>...
> I have a similar question. One of my ancestors, Johann Roesch, supposedly
> from Ensfeld Bavaria was referred to as "black German" - a description I
> believe refers to the area of Germany he was from. Does this sound right
> to anyone?
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>
> In article <5vm8tr$p...@mtinsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> elbr...@worldnet.att.net (Jim Elbrecht) wrote:
>
> > Elbrecht, who was described as 'dark' (listed as white on later census
> > records) b. in Germany-- and August RECHT described as 'brown' b. in
> > Leipzig(?), Saxony(?) (I think-- it looks like Siepzig, Saxon )
> >
> >
> > thanks,
> > jim
> > Researching;
> > Eggers, Elbrecht, Herchenroder and Witt
> > all in NY before 1900
>
> --
> One man's theology is another man's belly laugh
W. Fred Rump
mona_...@juno.com (Mona J HOUSER) wrote:
>Let me add my grandfather to the question here. My father said his dad
>was called "schwartze Hussern"--not sure how to spell it because I never
>saw it written. He had black hair and fairly dark skin, but I was never
>sure whether this term was a description of his coloring, his
>personality, his temperament, or just what.
Sound more like he was in, looked like or or had some other connection
to the Schwarze Husaren who were a famous military regiment.
Fred
W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
Michael Haught
I have been told oral legends of the "black dutch" blood of my ancestors.
They came from the Alcase/Lorain region of Germany and landed in
Philidelphia in the mid-1750's. In every nearly every generation of my
family, there is at least one very dark complected, dark haired
individual. In my family, I happen to be that one, but I also have a
smidge of American Indian from my mothers to help that out too.
As I said, this is all anectdotal info.
Jim Elbrecht
(elbr...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I just looked at some pages from the rosters of the 82nd ILL Regiment
: of (American) Civil War Soldiers.
: One of the columns in the description of these soldiers is
: 'complexion'. All I have is two pages-- 40 members of Co K, and 33
: members of Co. F. They were fillied out by two different people, so
: the terminology varies-- but I found this curious;( this unit was
: referred to as "the German Regiment"- so most of the soldiers are
: foriegn born)
: Co. K-
: Light- 8, Healthy- 24, Dark- 7 (a couple were blank)
: The soldiers described as 'dark' were born in (2)Prussia, Saxony,
: Poland, & Chicago.- A deep tan was probably not the cause of their
: dark skin because one was a clerk, one a hatter, and one a tailor.
: Co F (the last page- so only 33)
: Sallow- 4, Light- 3, Fair- 13, Dark- 2, Brown- 6
: The 'Brown' soldiers were born in (2) Alsace, (2) Baden, Germany, &
: Bavaria.
: This suprised me because, in my ignorance, I thought most of these
: folks would be light skinned. Was there a dark race of Germans?
: The soldiers that drew my attention to these pages were Henry
: Elbrecht, who was described as 'dark' (listed as white on later census
: records) b. in Germany-- and August RECHT described as 'brown' b. in
: Leipzig(?), Saxony(?) (I think-- it looks like Siepzig, Saxon )
:
: thanks,
: jim
: Researching;
: Eggers, Elbrecht, Herchenroder and Witt
: all in NY before 1900
--
-mwh
This account is my secondary email/usenet provider.
Please send replies to mwha...@netwalk.com
Mona J HOUSER
Fred,
That sounds consistent with the way my Dad spoke about it. Can you tell
me when the Huseran were in existence or something about their reputation
that might shed some light on my grandfather. Were they thought of as
adventurous, daring, fool-hardy, thorough, womanizers, etc? I don't
think most of these words describe my grandfather, but I'm trying to
think of a possible stereo-type that the Husaren might have had.
He left Germany in 1886 at age 17, and I think this description was of
his days in Germany.
Thanks for replying!
Mona
mona_...@juno.com
Ps. 78:4
RIECKMANN, WOLLE, REGLING, MUELLER, BEIER, BENTZIN, KOESTER,
VORPAHL/FAEHRPAHL, LABS, RUSCH, SCHUKAR, SCHURDEL, RADTKE
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 03:30:46 GMT fr...@k2nesoft.com (W. Fred Rump) writes:
%mona_...@juno.com (Mona J HOUSER) wrote:
%
%>Let me add my grandfather to the question here. My father said his
%dad
%>was called "schwartze Hussern"--not sure how to spell it because I
%never
%>saw it written. He had black hair and fairly dark skin, but I was
%never
%>sure whether this term was a description of his coloring, his
%>personality, his temperament, or just what.
%
%Sound more like he was in, looked like or or had some other connection
%to the Schwarze Husaren who were a famous military regiment.
%
%Fred
%
%
%
%W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
%26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
%Beverly, NJ
%609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
%
RLampenshf
Hi everybody
No, there has been no especially "dark skinned race" in Germany.
In former times Germany had no "colored" population as there has never
been a movement of colored people to Germany.
Germany was never one of the large colonial states.
I believe that the colors mentioned for the soldiers of this Illinoi Regiment
simply refer to the color of their hair.
The expression "schwarzer Husar" was once used for people with black hair.
"Schwarz" means "black". "Husaren" were soldiers on horse. Some (I believe
not all) of the "Husaren Regimenter" (regiments) wore totaly black uniforms.
That's the reason for this expression.
BTW, there were several Husaren Regiments.
In Duesseldorf, where my family originates from, there was once one Husaren
and one Ulanen Regiment (also a horse regiment).
There are areas in Germany were black or dark hair can be seen more often.
Members of my family originate from the Eifel area and it is said that most of
the people from that area have very dark or black hair.
My grandmother had and my brother has so dark hair that there are always people
how think that they are of italian or spanish origin.
The explanation is quite simple.
More than 1000 years back in time there have not only been Saxons, Frankonians
and others living in Germany which were organized in virtualy hundreds of
different
tribes. According to my research I believe that my very early ancestors
originate
from the Trenkterer and Brukterer tribes which are said to have been
living in that
area.
The members of those tribes could perhaps be recognized because some of
them had certain apearances as some were especially tall, some had
especially dark
hair or similar.
Some time ago I read a report which said that archeologists have found out that
especially some tribes in the Eifel area seem to have lived very isolated over
hundreds of years. Through this isolation their predominant black hair has
"genetically" survived in a lot of families in that area, which can be
seen also
in my family.
Greetings from Neuss/Germany
Ralph T.C. Lampenscherf
W. Fred Rump
mona_...@juno.com (Mona J HOUSER) wrote:
>Fred,
>That sounds consistent with the way my Dad spoke about it. Can you tell
>me when the Huseran were in existence or something about their reputation
>that might shed some light on my grandfather. Were they thought of as
>adventurous, daring, fool-hardy, thorough, womanizers, etc? I don't
>think most of these words describe my grandfather, but I'm trying to
>think of a possible stereo-type that the Husaren might have had.
>
>He left Germany in 1886 at age 17, and I think this description was of
>his days in Germany.
Well, I wasn't around when the Schwarze Husaren did their thing. :-)
At 17 I'm sure he was not part of the group and something else was
involved. You have to understand that in the 19th century there was
lots of writing about as well as many songs written to glorify the
various units of the Prussian and other military forces. This includes
songs about the Husaren and their exploits with the girls. I'm sure
there are people here who are more familiar with the words to such
songs than I but most of them will have faded away by now as
militaristic songs aren't exactly in vogue any more in Germany.
I would suspect that your grandfather received the moniker for a
reason none of us will ever pin point. It probably was an endearment
and nothing negative about him.
There were also the Schwarze Dragoner and who knows what else based
upon their uniforms.
Jim Elbrecht
Thanks Ralph- and the others who contributed,
I guess I should take the time to post the particulars on this
group of soldiers-- maybe the names or descriptions will mean more in
context. (maybe not<g>)
rlamp...@aol.com (RLampenshf) wrote;
> I believe that the colors mentioned for the soldiers of this Illinoi Regiment
> simply refer to the color of their hair.
That's been mentioned a couple of times-- but this column was for
'complexion'-- hair color is a separate column.
I'll list the 12 dark/brown soldiers & see if it rings a bell with
anyone. (I'm sure my transcriptions will have mistakes- the
handwriting is poor & I'm unfamiliar with many of the names-- I tried
not to 'read into' what I thought the writer meant)
The Columns are;
Name age hair eyes complexion occupation
nativity
Co K
Johanna Gutjahn 20 dark brown dark gardner Plarsci Lang,
Prussia
Peter Harnacker 45 black grey dark taylor
Gosafer,Prussia
Samuel Quittenau 18 brown grey dark laborer Chicago,
ILL(USA)
August Recht 26 dark grey dark Hatter Leipzig, Saxon
Peter Regitz 45 grey grey dark Laborer
Zweibriken,Prussia
Osudd Raugscow 40 brown blue dark laborer
Elbefut,Prussia
John Stauintzky 34 dark hazel dark clerk Krakau,Poland
Co F
George Richard 26 brown dark brown shoemaker
Elsatz, France
Erush Rode 30 sandy grey brown butcher
Mirowitz,Bohemia
Joseph Schreinff 20 brown grey brown farrier Wallberg,Baden
John West 35 brown brown brown farrier Elsolp,France
Henry Elbrecht 21 dark blue brown painter (not given)
I note that this list doesn't exactly agree with my first summarized
post-- another reason I need to look at things 'one word at a time'
and not try to summarize. It does look like the correct group(this
one) is from the areas Ralph mentions.
Patwerline
I found your message interesting, as I had a similar experience a few
years ago when I met a native of Germany who was familiar with the area of
Germany where one of my ancesters had originated. He commented that I
didn't resemble that branch of my family whom he described as dark haired,
dark eyed and had
dark complexion. That family originated from Baden. My great-
grandfather, who served in the Civil War, was listed as having
dark complexion on his official records in the Army. So apparently the
Germans from the southern regions, at last in part,.
were darker that those in the north. I don't if this information is
helpful to you, but I found this an interesting coincedence. Pat
Florian Ploedereder
Jim Elbrecht <elbr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> This suprised me because, in my ignorance, I thought most of these
> folks would be light skinned. Was there a dark race of Germans?
Hi Jim,
the first people with a black skin settled in the area of the Rhine
during the time of the Roman empire. Soldiers were granted a piece of
land after having served in the imperial troops. Of course there were
several men of African origin, too. But of course, the average colour of
skin of people having no African/African-American parents here is rather
light. Anyway - don't you think that in the case you mention the
description as black, brown etc. could refer to the colour of their
hair?
Best regards
Florian
--
Florian Ploedereder / fl...@hightek.com
Guy Sloop
I,m of German decent on my father,s
side, most of mine were Pennsylvania
Germans that came south to North Carolina and settled, My surname Sloop
is spelled Schlupp in German, I have
black hair and brown eye,s, my father
has black hair. I,m sure there were all
kinds of mixes of races in Germany
over the thousands of years, from the
many tribes recorded in history.