Difficult Translation
Giselher Dombach
Hi,
I have problems to translate a chapter of a church record describing the
marriage of one of my anchestors. Is there anybody out there who can help
with a translation?
Meseritz, 15.10.1820
Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
Dombak famulus miles ruralis, laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli
agrestis in Praedio Forge appellato legittimus filius, cum
desponsata sibi et praecognita Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai
Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
Dombak Operarirus ex Prodio Forge, et Jacobus Skodlinarski similiter
operatrius ex Meseritz.
Sponsus erat 27
Sponsa erat 30.
Especially, I have problems with the phrases:
"Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
"famulus miles ruralis"
"famuli agrestis"
"desponsata sibi et praecognita"
"operarirus"?
Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
"famulus miles ruralis"?
I am very thankful for any help. Thanks a lot in advance!
Giselher
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Researching the surnames DOMBACH, DABEK, DOMBEK, DUMBACK, DUMBAK, |
| BAHN, POLACH, BEHR, HENSLER, TUCZAK, HERTHE, CLEMENS, SCHULZ |
| *** all from East Brandenburg and the western border of Posen *** |
| |
| *** Visit my Family Genealogy Homepage *** |
| http://home.t-online.de/home/gidombach/dombach.html |
| |
| Any information would be highly appreciated - gdom...@scinet.de |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Robert Behnen
Gieselher,
I'll take a stab at it:
> Especially, I have problems with the phrases:
>
> "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
Praemisis - under the rules; Bannis - banns; matrimonialiter - marriage
Thus, under the rules of the banns of matrimony
> "famulus miles ruralis"
famulus - servant; miles - military/soldier; ruralis - rural/country
a rural military servant -- perhaps a former soldier who was now
working in the fields as a farm hand?
> "famuli agrestis"
famulus - servant; agrestis - farmer
Thus, a servant/farm hand at a farm.
> "desponsata sibi et praecognita"
desponsatus - engaged; sibi - ?; et praecognita - and before marriage
Thus, engaged and before marriage - ? Sibi could be critical but am
not sure what it stands for or what the root word is.
> "operarirus"?
Lohnarbeiter - wage worker/day laborer (from Ribbe und Henning)
> Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
> "famulus miles ruralis"?
perhaps the military connection . . . perhaps a farmer not living
in the town but on a distant farm in the country?
> I am very thankful for any help. Thanks a lot in advance!
Hope it helps somewhat - but hopefully some of the Latin pros will
help confirm or give you another idea. The information/definitions
above come from Latein I/II fuer den Sippenforscher by Karl Lampe.
Bob Behnen
conducting German Genealogy Research (GGR) and specializing in the thorough,
quick and accurate research of German church books microfilmed by the LDS
(Mormon) church, especially those written in the old German script or Latin.
For a GGR prospectus, send an e-mail to rjbe...@kvmo.net
MonikaYost
I cannot translate latin word for word, but I can give you the general idea of
what this says:
On these premises (Meseritz) was married Josephus Dombak, legitimate son of
Laurentius Dombak, a rural family, (Laurentius was a laborer). The bride was
Anna Catharina Baehr, legitimate daughter of Nicolai Baehr.
Witnesses: Matheus Dombak of Prodio Forge and Jacobus Skodlinarski of Meseritz.
Larry Ledebur
Giselher Dombach (gido...@t-online.de) wrote:
>I have problems to translate a chapter of a church record describing the
>marriage of one of my anchestors. Is there anybody out there who can help
>with a translation?
>Meseritz, 15.10.1820
>Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
>Dombak famulus miles ruralis, laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli
>agrestis in Praedio Forge appellato legittimus filius, cum
>desponsata sibi et praecognita Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai
>Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
>Dombak Operarirus ex Prodio Forge, et Jacobus Skodlinarski similiter
>operatrius ex Meseritz.
>Sponsus erat 27
S>ponsa erat 30.
>Especially, I have problems with the phrases:
>"Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
>"famulus miles ruralis"
>"famuli agrestis"
>"desponsata sibi et praecognita"
>"operarirus"?
>Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
>"famulus miles ruralis"?
I can't vouch for my memory of Latin studied almost sixty years ago, but
perhaps the following will be of some help:
"Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"="first marriage banns", i.e., the first
public announcement (in church) of the intention of the parties to wed, in
effect inviting objections, if known.
"famulus miles ruralis"=literally "a rural military servant"--I don't know
what that would be.
"famuli agrestis"="peasant (or farm) servants"
"desponsata sibi et praecognita"="carefully considering and promising
themselves"
"operarius"="a day-laborer, a workman"-you have two different spellings;
the witnesses are of the same occupation.
Each of the young people is described as the legitimate child of the named
father, and Anna's father is described as a tenant in Neustadt
Hope this helps.
Larry Ledebur (larr...@erols.com)
Alexandria, VA
H. Henkler
Larry愀 translation seems to come very close to the original:
PRAEMISIS BANNIS
The Webster愀 New World Dictionary explains: BANNS = the proclamation,
generally made in church on three successive Sundays, of an intended
marriage.
So, "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter" would mean: After having been
proclamated for matrimonium....
Larry Ledebur schrieb:
Siegfried Rambaum
> Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est
After effected announcement of intent matrimonially bonded will be
> Juvenis Josephus Dombak famulus miles ruralis,
der Junggeselle Joseph Dombak, Landsknecht
the bachelor Joseph Dombak, infanterist
> laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli agrestis in Praedio Forge
des tuechtigen Ackerknechts Laurentius Dombak zu Praedio Forge
the labourious farm hand Lawrence Dombak from Praedio Forge
> appellato legittimus filius, cum desponsata sibi et praecognita
bekannten ehelichen Sohn, mit der *****************************
well known legitimate son, with the well reputated
> Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis
Magd Anna Catharina Baehr, des Nikolaus Baehr, Einwohner zu Neudorf
Farm hand Anna Catharina Baehr, Nick Baehr's, resident of Neudorf,
> legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus Dombak Operarirus ex
eheliche Tochter. Zeugen waren Matthaeus Domback, Arbeiter aus
legitimate daughter. Witnesses were Matthew Dombak, worker from
> Prodio Forge, et Jacobus Skodlinarski similiter operatrius ex Meseritz
Prodio Forge, und Jakob Skodlinarski, gleichsam Arbeiter, aus Meseritz
Prodio Forge, and Jacob Skodlinarski, similarily worker, from Meseritz
> Sponsus erat 27 Sponsa erat 30
Gatte war 27 Gattin war 30
Spouse (he) 27 Spouse (she) 30
> >"Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
Das Problem ergab sich aus der falschen Zuordnung des matrimonialiter. Es
gehoert zu copulatus est.
The problem resulted from wrongly aligning matrimonialiter, it actually is
part of the copulatus part.
> famulus miles ruralis
Knecht miltaerisch laendlich
Helper military rural
Das macht durchaus Sinn. Pfarrer muessen oft biegen und beugen, wenn`s
drum geht, deutsche Ausdruecke ins Latein zu uebersetzen. Alte, lateini-
sche militaerische Ausdruecke passten nicht. Wuerde er irgendwas der Art
"Centurio" oder "Legionarius" reingeschrieben haben, haetten sich wahr-
scheinlich die Kirchgaenger kringelig gelacht. Unterhaltung des Poebels
ist aber nicht der Sinn einer kirchlichen Trauung.
In English and in Latin, this term does not make any intellegeable sense.
And old military terms from Latin certainly did not suit, either. Pastors,
who had been bound to use Latin for their records thus often found
themselves in a quadrancy, when having to describe modern professions in
an outdated language, that just had no quivalents. If the pastor had
written down some miliatry term known to Latin, half the church goers
would have rolled on the floor, laughing. Or how would you react, if a
U.S.Army sergeant would be taken down as a "Centurio", or an Infantry
Man as an "Legionarius"??? Entertainment and comedy is not exactly what
Church Weddings are supposed to be.
Denk mal nach, was koennte man aus "Knecht, militaerisches, laendliches"
denn an alten Soldaten-Raengen machen? Richtig: Landsknecht, und das genau
meinte der Pfarrer, und er setzte ein "miles" hinzu, auf das es ja klar
bleibe, was er gemeint.
If you now think for a moment, what you could make of "Knecht, militae-
risches, laendliches" (English readers: Don't even attempt to do with the
English terms, there never was anything that followed the logic of the
German term Landsknecht), you will arrive at Landsknecht, a very old term
for Infanterist. Landsknecht translates into Rural Servant, and that is
how the pastor got out of his quadrancy. To make sure, that not a farm
hand, but a military rank was meant, he added the "miles" (military)
> "famuli agrestis"
Knecht ackerliches ----> Ackerknecht
helper agricultural ----> Farm hand
> "desponsata sibi et praecognita"
Um sicher zu gehen, muesste ich nachgucken. Ich habe einen Verdacht, was
es bedeuten koennte. Denn mir fiel auf, dass im Text bei der Beschreibung
der Braut nix mit Jungfrau steht, wie es eigentlich in solchen Texten zu
erwarten waere. Praecognita ... Vor-erkannte .... irgendwie faellt mir
aus der Bibel ein: "... und Adam erkannte Eva". Pruef einfach im Dokument
doch mal, ob das "desponsata" nicht vielleicht auch "dispensata" lauten
koennte. Dann bedeutet das Ganze naemlich, dass die Braut schon mal
verheiratet war, und dass die erste Ehe annuliert wurde. Fuer die
Aufloesung einer Ehe brauchte es den kirchlichen Dispens.
To be sure, I would have to look things up in a dictionary. I have a
suspicion, what that part could mean. I noticed, that the text does not
use the word for "virgin", like such Latin texts usually do. Just check
the document on wether or not what you read as desponsata not actually
might read dispensata. If so, it would mean, that the bride had been
married before, and that that first marriage had been annulled. For such
annulation, you need what is called the "dispense".
> >Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
> >"famulus miles ruralis"?
Wuerde ich auch machen, denn "Ackerknecht" und "Landsknecht" sind halt
zwei verschiedene Sachen.
I would differentiate it too, as "Ackerknecht" (Farm hand) and
"Landsknecht" (Mercenary) are two different jobs.
Siegfried
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
Larry Ledebur (larr...@erols.com) wrote:
: Giselher Dombach (gido...@t-online.de) wrote:
: >I have problems to translate a chapter of a church record describing the
: >marriage of one of my anchestors. Is there anybody out there who can help
: >with a translation?
: >Meseritz, 15.10.1820
: >Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
: >Dombak famulus miles ruralis, laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli
: >agrestis in Praedio Forge appellato legittimus filius, cum
: >desponsata sibi et praecognita Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai
: >Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
: >Dombak Operarirus ex Prodio Forge, et Jacobus Skodlinarski similiter
: >operatrius ex Meseritz.
: >Sponsus erat 27
: S>ponsa erat 30.
Let's try this again. Note that there are either errors in the original
Latin or the transcription. Translations of mistranscribed items are
inherently suspect. (I'd translate to German too, but I've spent too
much time writing it already.)
Meseritz, 15 Oct 1820
By previously issued banns the youth Josephus Dombak, a rural peasant
soldier [and] legitimate son of the laborer Laurentius Dombak, a
farmhand[?] on the estate called Forge, has been joined matrimonially
with the woman engaged to him and already known, the peasant Anna
Catharina Baehr, legitimate daughter of Nicholas Baehr [Inquilinus]
from [Neoville]. The witnesses were Mattheus Dombak, a day-laborer from
the estate Forge, and Jacobus Skodlinarski, similarly a day-laborer from
Meseritz.
The groom was 27.
The bride was 30.
"Praedium" is also read once as "prodium," but I think it's probably really
"praedium" as in "estate."
"matrimonialiter"=matrimonially (ehelich?)
"sibi"=to him/himself, German "sich."
"Agrestis", "laboriosus", "famulus", and "operarius" probably all have
subtle distictions which can only be determined with a specific knowledge
of the usages peculiar to the time and place. The above translations
should not be taken too literally, but they should be approximately right.
I have a feeling "agrestis" in particular probably indicates some type of
farmhand, though more generally it just means "person from the country."
I don't know "Inquilinus" and "Neovillensis" may or may not refer to a
translation of a place name like "Neustadt" or "Neudorf".
Some of the translations posted for this make a common mistake among
genealogists translating Latin which is to completely ignore the grammar
and syntax. You can't do that and get a correct translation. Just having
a Latin dictionary (or just guessing at words that look similar to ones
you know in another language) is not enough.
: >Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
: >"famulus miles ruralis"?
Those are definitely different. A "miles" is a soldier or possibly some
sort of militiaman.
: "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"="first marriage banns", i.e., the first
: public announcement (in church) of the intention of the parties to wed, in
: effect inviting objections, if known.
"Praemisis" is probably a misreading of "praemissis," "having been sent
ahead or before." It's a past participle in the ablative plural, which is
critical to interpreting it, as is recognizing that "matrimonialiter" is
an adverb. The adverb isn't modifying "praemissis bannis" but rather the
main verb "copulatus est."
: "famuli agrestis"="peasant (or farm) servants"
Genitive, not plural. Plural would be "famuli agrestes."
Ben Buckner
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
: : >I have problems to translate a chapter of a church record describing the
: : >marriage of one of my anchestors. Is there anybody out there who can help
: : >with a translation?
: : >desponsata sibi et praecognita Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai
: : >Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
: Catharina Baehr, legitimate daughter of Nicholas Baehr [Inquilinus]
: from [Neoville]. The witnesses were Mattheus Dombak, a day-laborer from
: I don't know "Inquilinus" and "Neovillensis" may or may not refer to a
: translation of a place name like "Neustadt" or "Neudorf".
Aha. "Inquilinus" is just a tenant or inhabitant, so Nicholas Baehr was
probably a tenant or just a person from "Neoville."
Ben Buckner
Helge.Robitzsch
Giselher Dombach wrote:
> Meseritz, 15.10.1820
>
> Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
> Dombak famulus miles ruralis, laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli
> agrestis in Praedio Forge appellato legittimus filius, cum
> Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
> operatrius ex Meseritz.
>
> Sponsus erat 27
>
> Especially, I have problems with the phrases:
>
> "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
> "famulus miles ruralis"
> "famuli agrestis"
> "desponsata sibi et praecognita"
> "operarirus"?
>
> "famulus miles ruralis"?
Korrekturen:
Praemisis -> Praemissis
Praedio -> prodio (prodium = Gut)
legittimus -> legitimus
Operarirus -> operarius
operatrius -> operarius
Nach Durchfuehrung [1] der Proklamationen wurde
getraut [2] der Juengling Josephus Dombak,
Rittergutsgehilfe [3], ehelicher Sohn des arbeitsamen
Laurentius Dombak, Feldarbeiter in dem Gut namens Forge,
mit seiner Verlobten und vorher bekannten [4] Anna
Catharina Baehr, Magd [5], eheliche Tochter des Nicolaus
Baehr, Hausgenosse [6] aus Neustadt [7].
Zeugen waren Matheus Dombak, Arbeiter [8] aus dem Gut Forge,
und Jacobus Skodlinarski, ebenfalls Arbeiter aus
Meseritz.
Der Braetigam war 27
Die Braut war 30.
[1] woertl.: nach den vorausgeschickten ....
Gemeint ist die meist an den drei davorliegenden
Sonntagen durchgefuehrte Ankuendigung der Eheschliessung.
[2] woertl: ehelich verbunden (matrimonialiter copulatus est)
[3] Etwas problematisch ist das 'miles' in 'famulus miles
ruralis'. Ohne 'miles' waere er einfach
Landwirtschaftsgehilfe oder Landarbeiter. 'miles' heisst
nicht nur Soldat -- was ja auch in Verbindung mit
'ruralis' = laendlich keinen Sinn macht. Die Deutung
'Landsknecht' erscheint fuer das Jahr 1820 fragwuerdig.
'miles' bedeutet im Spaetlatein vor allem Ritter.
Bis heute werden viele der grossen Gueter im Osten
aus historischen Gruenden als Rittergueter bezeichnet.
Vermutl. hat der Braetigam auf einem Rittergut gearbeitet.
[4] 'desponsata sibi': die mit ihm Verlobte.
'et praecognita': theoretisch koennte es auch heissen:
'und vorher [= vor der Ehe] den Beischlaf ausgeuebt hat'.
Ich glaube aber, dass dies nur bei einer sichtbaren
Schwangerschaft dokumentiert worden waere. Daher ist
bis zum Beweis des Gegenteils :-) die wohlmeinende
Deutung vorzuziehen, dass die beiden sich vor der
Verlobung bereits einge Zeit gekannt haben.
[5] oder: Dienerin, Helferin
[6] 'inquilinus': je nach Gegend und Zeit auch:
Heuermann, Paechter, Mieter. Meist so etwas wie ein
pachtabhaengiger Klein- oder Kleinstlandwirt.
[7] 'Neovillensis': entweder der latinisierte Ortsname
'Neustadt' oder 'Neudorf' oder der Hinweis auf einen
in neuerer Zeit besiedelten Ortsteil: 'aus dem Neudorf'.
[8] auch: Tageloehner, Handlanger.
--
Helge Robitzsch hr...@math.uni-goettingen.de
tar...@imap2.asu.edu
Siegfried Rambaum (si...@adore.lightlink.com) wrote:
: > appellato legittimus filius, cum desponsata sibi et praecognita
: bekannten ehelichen Sohn, mit der *****************************
: well known legitimate son, with the well reputated
"Appellato" stimmt mit "praedio" ueberein, nicht mit "filus", also
"zum Praedium, das Forge heisst,..."
"Appellato" agrees with "praedio," not with "filus," so "from the
estate called Forge..."
: > "desponsata sibi et praecognita"
: Um sicher zu gehen, muesste ich nachgucken. Ich habe einen Verdacht, was
: es bedeuten koennte. Denn mir fiel auf, dass im Text bei der Beschreibung
: der Braut nix mit Jungfrau steht, wie es eigentlich in solchen Texten zu
: erwarten waere. Praecognita ... Vor-erkannte .... irgendwie faellt mir
: aus der Bibel ein: "... und Adam erkannte Eva". Pruef einfach im Dokument
: doch mal, ob das "desponsata" nicht vielleicht auch "dispensata" lauten
: koennte. Dann bedeutet das Ganze naemlich, dass die Braut schon mal
: verheiratet war, und dass die erste Ehe annuliert wurde. Fuer die
: Aufloesung einer Ehe brauchte es den kirchlichen Dispens.
: To be sure, I would have to look things up in a dictionary. I have a
: suspicion, what that part could mean. I noticed, that the text does not
: use the word for "virgin", like such Latin texts usually do. Just check
: the document on wether or not what you read as desponsata not actually
: might read dispensata. If so, it would mean, that the bride had been
: married before, and that that first marriage had been annulled. For such
: annulation, you need what is called the "dispense".
Oder das ist nur "desponsata," "verlobt." Das Dasein von "sibi"
bestaetigt das, weil man "dispensata sibi" nicht sagen wuerde. "Mit ihm
verlobt" macht Sinn mehr. "Praecognita" ist schwer. Das geradeste Lesen
ist aber "schon erkannt," zeigend entweder, dass sie frueher im Dokument
genannt worden ist, oder, dass sie dem Josephus schon bekannt (oder
erkannt) ist. Ob das der biblische Sinn ist, weiss ich nicht. Das kann
sein. Das Vulgat braucht "cognoscere" ("cognovit autem Cain uxorem
suam") zwar. Aber es ist am wahrscheinlichsten, dass Josephus der
"Erkenner" waere.
Or it's just "desponsata", "engaged." The presence of "sibi" confirms
this because you wouldn't say "dispensed to him" (unless she was a
beverage or something). "Engaged to him" makes a lot more sense.
"Praecognita" is difficult. The most straightforward interpretation is
"previously known" though, either indicating that she had been previously
referred to in the record or was already known to Josephus. Whether this
means "known" in the Biblical sense, I couldn't say. It might. The
Vulgate does use "cognoscere" ("cognovit autem Cain uxorem suam").
It's most likely though that Josephus would be the "knower."
Ben Buckner
Conrad Weck
"Helge.Robitzsch" <hr...@math.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
>Giselher Dombach wrote:
>> Meseritz, 15.10.1820
>>
>> Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
snip
>Helge Robitzsch hr...@math.uni-goettingen.de
The ability to translate or make sense of a churchbook entry of this
nature is simply amazing. I doff my hat to these scholars.
Conrad
Helge.Robitzsch
Giselher Dombach wrote:
> Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
... snip ...
Noch eine kurze Bemerkung zum Begriff
'famulus miles ruralis',
was w"ortlich etwa 'Knechtsoldat auf dem Lande'
bedeutet. Daf"ur wurde neulich die "Ubersetzung
'Landsknecht' angegeben. Landsknechte in dem "ublichen
Sinn gab es aber nur im 15. und 16. Jahrhundert. Im
17. Jahrhundert kam diese Bezeichnung f"ur einen
Soldaten/S"oldner ausser Gebrauch, sodass seine
Verwendung in einem Dokument von 1820 eher
unwahrscheinlich ist.
Was es allerdings (vorwiegend in Hessen und
Mitteldeutschland) gab, war der Landknecht.
Ein Landknecht war ein Gehilfe des Richters bei der
Aus"ubung seines Amtes, also bei Verhaftungen, Pf"andungen
usw. Als plausibelste "Ubersetzung erscheint mir daher:
famulus miles ruralis - Gerichtsdiener, Gendarm.
--
Helge Robitzsch hr...@math.uni-goettingen.de
W. Fred Rump
Siegfried Rambaum <si...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
>> Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis
> Magd Anna Catharina Baehr, des Nikolaus Baehr, Einwohner zu Neudorf
> Farm hand Anna Catharina Baehr, Nick Baehr's, resident of Neudorf,
Inquilinus/Inquilini can be a problem depending on where this word is
used. Generically the word was used for Häusler or Schutzverwandter
but in Westphalia/Oldenburg it seem to mean Heuermann as I find it
used somewhat interchangeably there. Einwohner is stretching the point
though.
Fred
W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
Beverly, NJ
609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
C & K Hofmann
W. Fred Rump wrote:
> Siegfred Rambaum <si...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> >> Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis
> > Magd Anna Catharina Baehr, des Nikolaus Baehr, Einwohner zu Neudorf
> > Farm hand Anna Catharina Baehr, Nick Baehr's, resident of Neudorf,
>
> Inquilinus/Inquilini can be a problem depending on where this word is
> used. Generically the word was used for Häusler or Schutzverwandter
> but in Westphalia/Oldenburg it seem to mean Heuermann as I find it
> used somewhat interchangeably there. Einwohner is stretching the point
> though.
>
> Fred
Inquilinus, normally meaning Lodger or Tenant does not interchange to
Haüsling or Haüsler normally but more likely a day worker of sorts
"Tagelöhner" who had really no citizenship rights in the area as you
suggest with the term Schutzverwandter. I would not think Heuerling or
Heuermann in any records I have seen in Westphalia, but again from
Kirchspeil to Kirchspeil and writer to writer terms took on there own
meaning for the area, and the only thing one can be assured of is that
there is not total consistancy.
Charles Hofmann
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"Lutheran Surname Exchange" and hopefully many more helpful links and
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http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html
Giselher Dombach
Monika and Helge,
thanks a lot for your help. It is fantastic how you could get sense into
this text.
Again, thanks a lot!
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
In article <34E15F...@math.uni-goettingen.de>, "Helge.Robitzsch"
<hr...@math.uni-goettingen.de> wrote:
Helge,
ganz herzlichen Dank fuer Deine trefflichen Uebersetzungen auch in Deiner
laengeren Message. Das macht alles sehr viel Sinn. Uebrigens auch
herzlichen Dank fuer Deine hoefliche Annahme, dass "et precognita" nicht
unbedingt bedeutet, dass die Braut schon schwanger war. Sie war es
tatsaechlich!
Nochmals herzlichen Dank und beste Gruesse nach Goettingen, die Stadt, in
der ich "Gast" auf der "Zieten-Ranch" war ;-)
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
In article <3.0.1.32.1998020...@pop.erols.com>, Larry Ledebur
<larr...@erols.com> wrote:
> Giselher Dombach (gido...@t-online.de) wrote:
>
> >I have problems to translate a chapter of a church record describing the
> >marriage of one of my anchestors. Is there anybody out there who can help
> >with a translation?
> >Meseritz, 15.10.1820
> >Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter copulatus est Juvenis Josephus
> >Dombak famulus miles ruralis, laboriosi Laurentii Dombak famuli
> >agrestis in Praedio Forge appellato legittimus filius, cum
> >desponsata sibi et praecognita Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai
> >Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis legittima filia. Testes erant Matheus
> >Dombak Operarirus ex Prodio Forge, et Jacobus Skodlinarski similiter
> >operatrius ex Meseritz.
> >Sponsus erat 27
> S>ponsa erat 30.
> >Especially, I have problems with the phrases:
> >"Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"
> >"famulus miles ruralis"
> >"famuli agrestis"
> >"desponsata sibi et praecognita"
> >"operarirus"?
> >Why did the author make a difference between "famulus agrestis" and
> >"famulus miles ruralis"?
>
> I can't vouch for my memory of Latin studied almost sixty years ago, but
> perhaps the following will be of some help:
>
> "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter"="first marriage banns", i.e., the first
> public announcement (in church) of the intention of the parties to wed, in
> effect inviting objections, if known.
>
> "famulus miles ruralis"=literally "a rural military servant"--I don't know
> what that would be.
>
> "famuli agrestis"="peasant (or farm) servants"
>
> "desponsata sibi et praecognita"="carefully considering and promising
> themselves"
>
> "operarius"="a day-laborer, a workman"-you have two different spellings;
> the witnesses are of the same occupation.
>
> Each of the young people is described as the legitimate child of the named
> father, and Anna's father is described as a tenant in Neustadt
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Larry Ledebur (larr...@erols.com)
> Alexandria, VA
Larry,
thank you very much for your help. It really helps.
Best regards,
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
In article <6bnrfl$i70$1...@news02.btx.dtag.de>, Hen...@t-online.de (H.
Henkler) wrote:
> Larry´s translation seems to come very close to the original:
> PRAEMISIS BANNIS
> The Webster´s New World Dictionary explains: BANNS = the proclamation,
> generally made in church on three successive Sundays, of an intended
> marriage.
> So, "Praemisis Bannis matrimonialiter" would mean: After having been
> proclamated for matrimonium....
>
>
> Larry Ledebur schrieb:
> >
Herzlichen Dank fuer die Hilfe!
Viele Gruesse!
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.980209...@adore.lightlink.com>,
Siegfried Rambaum <si...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
Siegfried,
thanks a lot for your detailed explanation. It really helped a lot! Having
discussed this issue of the "Landsknecht" with others I came to the
conclusion that it was more of a rural policeman.
Again, thanks a lot!
Giselher
------------------------
Siegfried,
herzlichen Dank fuer Deine detaillierten Auskuenfte. Sie waren nicht nur
sehr hilfreich, sondern auch noch amuesant zu lesen, was bei diesem
trockenen Stoff sicher nicht einfach ist. Im Jahre 1820 sind Landsknechte
allerdings nicht mehr gebraeuchlich. Nach anderen Interpretationen handelt
es sich hier um einen Gerichtsgehilfen bei Pfaendungen etc.
Nochmals ganz herzlichen Dank fuer Deine Hilfe.
Viele Gruesse!
Giselher
P.S.
Ich freue mich, wieder jemand mit einem Namen aus der Nibelungensage hier
zu sehen. Mein Sohn hat den Namen "Hagen", das muesste doch gerade bei Dir
gewisse Assoziationen bei den Namen wecken ;-)
Giselher Dombach
In article <34e1f33d...@news.netaxs.com>, fr...@k2nesoft.com wrote:
> Siegfried Rambaum <si...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> >> Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis
> > Magd Anna Catharina Baehr, des Nikolaus Baehr, Einwohner zu Neudorf
> > Farm hand Anna Catharina Baehr, Nick Baehr's, resident of Neudorf,
>
> Inquilinus/Inquilini can be a problem depending on where this word is
> used. Generically the word was used for Häusler or Schutzverwandter
> but in Westphalia/Oldenburg it seem to mean Heuermann as I find it
> used somewhat interchangeably there. Einwohner is stretching the point
> though.
>
> Fred
>
>
> W. Fred Rump fr...@k2nesoft.com
> 26 Warren St. fr...@compu.com
> Beverly, NJ
> 609-386-6846 http://www.k2nesoft.com/~fred
Fred,
combined the other information I have from my anchestor I guess
"Inquilini" means "Einwohner".
Thanks a lot for your help!
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
> W. Fred Rump wrote:
>
> > Siegfred Rambaum <si...@adore.lightlink.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Anna Catharina Baehr famula, Nicolai Baehr Inquilini Neovillensis
> > > Magd Anna Catharina Baehr, des Nikolaus Baehr, Einwohner zu Neudorf
> > > Farm hand Anna Catharina Baehr, Nick Baehr's, resident of Neudorf,
> >
> > Inquilinus/Inquilini can be a problem depending on where this word is
> > used. Generically the word was used for Häusler or Schutzverwandter
> > but in Westphalia/Oldenburg it seem to mean Heuermann as I find it
> > used somewhat interchangeably there. Einwohner is stretching the point
> > though.
> >
> > Fred
>
> Inquilinus, normally meaning Lodger or Tenant does not interchange to
> Haüsling or Haüsler normally but more likely a day worker of sorts
> "Tagelöhner" who had really no citizenship rights in the area as you
> suggest with the term Schutzverwandter. I would not think Heuerling or
> Heuermann in any records I have seen in Westphalia, but again from
> Kirchspeil to Kirchspeil and writer to writer terms took on there own
> meaning for the area, and the only thing one can be assured of is that
> there is not total consistancy.
>
> Charles Hofmann
> --
> - Read about the 1836 voyage of the sailing ship "OLBERS" from Bremen to
> New Orleans -
> "Lutheran Surname Exchange" and hopefully many more helpful links and
> interesting information included at our Hofmann Family Home Page
> http://www.azstarnet.com/~hofmann/index.html
Charles,
thanks a lot for your contribution! It was very interesting!
Best regards,
Giselher
Giselher Dombach
In article <6bqcs2$h...@news.asu.edu>, tar...@imap2.asu.edu wrote:
> Siegfried Rambaum (si...@adore.lightlink.com) wrote:
>
> : > appellato legittimus filius, cum desponsata sibi et praecognita
> : bekannten ehelichen Sohn, mit der *****************************
> : well known legitimate son, with the well reputated
>
> "Appellato" stimmt mit "praedio" ueberein, nicht mit "filus", also
> "zum Praedium, das Forge heisst,..."
>
> "Appellato" agrees with "praedio," not with "filus," so "from the
> estate called Forge..."
>
> : > "desponsata sibi et praecognita"
>
> : Um sicher zu gehen, muesste ich nachgucken. Ich habe einen Verdacht, was
> : es bedeuten koennte. Denn mir fiel auf, dass im Text bei der Beschreibung
> : der Braut nix mit Jungfrau steht, wie es eigentlich in solchen Texten zu
> : erwarten waere. Praecognita ... Vor-erkannte .... irgendwie faellt mir
> : aus der Bibel ein: "... und Adam erkannte Eva". Pruef einfach im Dokument
> : doch mal, ob das "desponsata" nicht vielleicht auch "dispensata" lauten
> : koennte. Dann bedeutet das Ganze naemlich, dass die Braut schon mal
> : verheiratet war, und dass die erste Ehe annuliert wurde. Fuer die
> : Aufloesung einer Ehe brauchte es den kirchlichen Dispens.
>
> : To be sure, I would have to look things up in a dictionary. I have a
> : suspicion, what that part could mean. I noticed, that the text does not
> : use the word for "virgin", like such Latin texts usually do. Just check
> : the document on wether or not what you read as desponsata not actually
> : might read dispensata. If so, it would mean, that the bride had been
> : married before, and that that first marriage had been annulled. For such
> : annulation, you need what is called the "dispense".
>
> Oder das ist nur "desponsata," "verlobt." Das Dasein von "sibi"
> bestaetigt das, weil man "dispensata sibi" nicht sagen wuerde. "Mit ihm
> verlobt" macht Sinn mehr. "Praecognita" ist schwer. Das geradeste Lesen
> ist aber "schon erkannt," zeigend entweder, dass sie frueher im Dokument
> genannt worden ist, oder, dass sie dem Josephus schon bekannt (oder
> erkannt) ist. Ob das der biblische Sinn ist, weiss ich nicht. Das kann
> sein. Das Vulgat braucht "cognoscere" ("cognovit autem Cain uxorem
> suam") zwar. Aber es ist am wahrscheinlichsten, dass Josephus der
> "Erkenner" waere.
>
> Or it's just "desponsata", "engaged." The presence of "sibi" confirms
> this because you wouldn't say "dispensed to him" (unless she was a
> beverage or something). "Engaged to him" makes a lot more sense.
> "Praecognita" is difficult. The most straightforward interpretation is
> "previously known" though, either indicating that she had been previously
> referred to in the record or was already known to Josephus. Whether this
> means "known" in the Biblical sense, I couldn't say. It might. The
> Vulgate does use "cognoscere" ("cognovit autem Cain uxorem suam").
> It's most likely though that Josephus would be the "knower."
>
> Ben Buckner
Ben,
thanks a lot for your contribution to this discussion. It helped a lot!
Best regards,
Giselher