La Grande Recrue de 1653
Nor...@aol.com
reached Ville-Marie or Montreal on 16-11-1653, there were 6 that later died
(killed?) on the same day and buried about 3 weeks later. This is how their
passings are noted in Jette:
d. 9 or 12 May Long-Sault , s. 3 June 1660, Montreal.
I have no idea what Long-Sault refers to. A place? Killed by? I have
learned that Ojibwa indians are of the Nation of Sault. Probably others too.
Iriquois?
Does anyone know the circumstances of this passing? It appears that
something happenned at an unknown location over a period of 4 days and that
the bodies were retrieved and returned to Montreal for burial about 3 weeks
later. I think Long-Sault is the key.
The 6 men were: Jacques BRASSIER, Francois CRUSSON, Rerne DOUSSIN, Nicolas
JOUSSELIN, Jean LECOMTE, Jean TAVERNNIER.
This all seems so unusual. Does anyone have the answers?
TIA
Norman Cazavan
Many other Members of the Recrue were killed by the Iroquois. One was even
killed on his doorstep by wolves. Several drowned. This was wild country in
those days.
Denis Beauregard
dans soc.genealogy.french:
>Hi Listers ...... Of the 95 members of the Grand Recruitment, that
>reached Ville-Marie or Montreal on 16-11-1653, there were 6 that later died
>(killed?) on the same day and buried about 3 weeks later. This is how their
>passings are noted in Jette:
>
>d. 9 or 12 May Long-Sault , s. 3 June 1660, Montreal.
>
>I have no idea what Long-Sault refers to. A place? Killed by? I have
>learned that Ojibwa indians are of the Nation of Sault. Probably others too.
> Iriquois?
>
>Does anyone know the circumstances of this passing? It appears that
>something happenned at an unknown location over a period of 4 days and that
>the bodies were retrieved and returned to Montreal for burial about 3 weeks
>later. I think Long-Sault is the key.
>
>The 6 men were: Jacques BRASSIER, Francois CRUSSON, Rerne DOUSSIN, Nicolas
>JOUSSELIN, Jean LECOMTE, Jean TAVERNNIER.
>
>This all seems so unusual. Does anyone have the answers?
Ever heard of Dollard des Ormeaux (named Adam DOLLARD, sieur des
ORMEAUX in Jetté) ?
By the way, there will be a lot of presentations for this 350th
birthday (anniversary ?) of the Recrue of 1653.
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard http://www.genealogie.com (français)
/\/ Genealogy Web site: http://www.francogene.com (English)
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Relationniste - www.sgcf.com - 60 ans en 2003 !
oo oo Société généalogique canadienne-française
Don Dubé
Place of the long rapids.
It is about 45 miles east of Montréal, and just minutes east of Cornwall
Ontario.
Don Dubé
Ron Chenier
Ron
"Don Dubé" <dgd...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3E241D33...@rogers.com...
Don Dubé
Don
Rino
Denis Beauregard <spam-is-...@genealogie.com.invalid> a écrit dans le
message : 4bj62vsklgtc2karr...@4ax.com...
> Le Mon, 13 Jan 2003 19:10:10 +0000 (UTC), Nor...@aol.com écrivait
> dans soc.genealogy.french:
>
> >Hi Listers ...... Of the 95 members of the Grand Recruitment, that
> >reached Ville-Marie or Montreal on 16-11-1653, there were 6 that later
died
> >(killed?) on the same day and buried about 3 weeks later. This is how
their
> >passings are noted in Jette:
> >
> >d. 9 or 12 May Long-Sault , s. 3 June 1660, Montreal.
> >
> >I have no idea what Long-Sault refers to. A place? Killed by? I have
> >learned that Ojibwa indians are of the Nation of Sault. Probably others
too.
Montreal
> > Iriquois?
> >
> >Does anyone know the circumstances of this passing? It appears that
> >something happenned at an unknown location over a period of 4 days and
that
> >the bodies were retrieved and returned to Montreal for burial about 3
weeks
> >later. I think Long-Sault is the key.
> >
> >The 6 men were: Jacques BRASSIER, Francois CRUSSON, Rerne DOUSSIN,
Nicolas
> >JOUSSELIN, Jean LECOMTE, Jean TAVERNNIER.
Those were among 17 young men (24 to 31 years old) who fougth against the
Iroquois at Long Sault in 1660
Here are the names of the group: Dollard des Ormeaux, Jacques Brassier, Jean
Travernier, Nicolas Tiblemont, Roland Hebert, Alonie Delestre, Nicolas
Josselin, Robert Jurie, Jacques Boisseau, Louis Matin, Christophe Augier,
Etienne Robin, Jean Valets, Rene Doussin, Jean Lecompte, Simon Grenet et
Francois Crusson.
All were killed!
Rino
(I have the story of the battle, if needed)
P Moreland
Paulette Moreland
Don Dubé
same as the one in 1660.
In the book it describes the voyage like this:
"Descending the St-Laurent river, they entered the mouth of the Ottawa
river, crossed the Lake of Two Mountains, and slowly advanced against
the current of the river. A few days later they reached the foot of the
formidable rapid called the LONG SAULT, where a tumult of waters foaming
among ledges and boulders barred their onward way." ...
this is a great history book, first edition printed in 1903. It has
amazing lithographs in it
Don Dubé
Nor...@aol.com
"On the trip from Montreal to Long-Sault were also killed: Nicolas DUVAL.
Mathurin SOULARD and Blaise JUILLET were drowned when their canoe flipped
over."
In researching this statement Jette says DUVAL was killed by the Iriquois and
Jette says the other 2 drowned.
Apparently these 3 were killed on the way before DOLLARD's group of 17
reached the Fort and later killed. I believe they all travelled by canoe and
carried them to near the Fort where the Iroquois later burned them. How or
why DUVAL was killed I don't know. I assume he was in one of the canoes. I
have no idea why it isn't a group of 20 instead of 17 that they write about.
JUILLET was the only married man of the 20 !! 7 of the 20 were Recrue
Members.
Any questions let me know.
Norman Cazavan
Rino
"P Moreland" <pmor...@attbi.com> a écrit dans le message :
004c01c2bd70$075cbc20$9600...@attbi.com...
To me, from the history of this battle, he was not... Unless Blaise Juillet
dit Avignon would be a surnam of one man of the group.
I cannot find anything about it
Rino
Don Dubé
not the main theme of the book. It is only a small piece of a larger
story. I have the biographies of all of the 95 men.
Will share ...
Gilles Julien
learnt from an historian who made a PhD on the issue that there are in fact
three rapids on what is commonly called Le Long Sault. Going west on the
Ottawa River, the third rapid is "Le Long Sault proprement dit" and it is an
8 kms rapid starting under the Hawkesbury bridge and going west. It is on
the Ontarian side of the Ottawa River that the famous battle occurred where
Dollard des Ormeaux and his friends were killed. (Excusez mon anglais)
Pour ceux que cela intéresserait: un spectacle à grand déploiement
réunissant quelques 300 comédiens, chanteurs, musiciens, acrobates, etc
personnifiant plus de 1000 personnages aura lieu dans la Forêt Larose, sur
la route 174 entre Montréal et Ottawa, à compter de juin 2003; ce spectacle
racontera l'histoire franco-ontarienne; au cours de ce spectacle de 14
tableaux, on rappèlera l'épopée du Long Sault, événement qui s'est donc
passé en terre ontarienne.
--
Gilles Julien
Ottawa, Canada
"Don Dubé" <dgd...@rogers.com> a écrit dans le message news:
3E26CEF2...@rogers.com...
Denis Beauregard
dans soc.genealogy.french:
>Hi Paulette .... I was sent this re the famous battle:
They died 9 or 12 May 1660. Buried 3 weeks later.
>"On the trip from Montreal to Long-Sault were also killed: Nicolas DUVAL.
>Mathurin SOULARD and Blaise JUILLET were drowned when their canoe flipped
>over."
Nicolas DUVAL d 19-04-1660, killed by Iroquois
Mathurin SOULARD d 19-04-1660, drowned while trying to escape Iroquois
Blaise JUILLET d 19-04-1660, drowned while trying to escape Iroquois
This occured near Ile St-Paul, which is near Verdun (now Ile Verdun I
think)
>In researching this statement Jette says DUVAL was killed by the Iriquois and
>Jette says the other 2 drowned.
>
>Apparently these 3 were killed on the way before DOLLARD's group of 17
no, apparently, there is no relation. Logically, after the
attack, since they were not far from Montreal, the remainders
would have gone to Montreal. Moreover, the 3 killed were buried in
Montreal the next day. So, maybe they were en route for Long
Sault, but they likely get back.
>reached the Fort and later killed. I believe they all travelled by canoe and
>carried them to near the Fort where the Iroquois later burned them. How or
>why DUVAL was killed I don't know. I assume he was in one of the canoes. I
>have no idea why it isn't a group of 20 instead of 17 that they write about.
What about 1 leader and 16 followers ? Or just because it was
not an organized group ?
>JUILLET was the only married man of the 20 !! 7 of the 20 were Recrue
>Members.
>
>Any questions let me know.
>
>Norman Cazavan
Any way, not enough is known from that battle to get a definitive
statement.
The story was made popular by an historian (Lionel Groulx ?) who was
looking for heroes among our ancestors. He wrote they were there
to protect the colony, which makes sense taking into account the
attack of Ile St-Paul 3 weeks before. Long Sault is West of Montreal,
just like Ile St-Paul, so it makes sense they went in that direction
while the Iroquois usually came from Richelieu River, which is the
opposite direction.
And after that, racist anti-French historians invented that Dollard
was there to attack friendly Indians carrying their furs to
Ville-Marie. They also said the troups were all drunk.
We don't have enough data to say any of them is totally right.
We don't know if it was to attack Iroquois (ennemies) or fur
traders (friends). We don't even know the date of the battle !
P Moreland
Thanks for your information. Thomas B. Costain's "The White And The Gold" has a very interesting chapter on Adam Dollard, his 16 men and the events of the battle that ensued at the Long Sault. Unfortunately, he did list the names of Dollard's followers. However, Costain did indicate that not only were there these 17 "weary Frenchmen" defenders, but also "six native allies" with them (pg. 222). I have not read of any other accounts on this battle that mentioned these "six native allies". Have you?
Paulette Moreland
Gilles Julien
Hawkesbury, la bataille de l'Île St-Paul, devenue aujourd'hui l'Île des
Soeurs, a eu lieu le 18 avril, et celle du Long Sault entre le 1er et le 20
mai. According to a professionnal historian, specialist of Le Long Sault,
the date of the battle at Île St-Paul, now Île des Soeurs, is 18 april,
while the date of the Long Sault battel is between May 1 and May 20. The
historian is Mr. Yves Saint-Denis, a resident of Hawkesbury.
--
Gilles
"Denis Beauregard" <spam-is-...@genealogie.com.invalid> a écrit dans le
message news: 8b8e2v467kdl43qf7...@4ax.com...
Suzanne B Sommerville
Denis,
You really shouldn't claim the sources are not extant for the Long Sault
episode. Visit Septentrion's web site for a good summary in connection
with a book in French published in 2001. Check under the heading _Du coq à
l'âne_
The problem is not the sources but what has been done with them. Notarial
records exist confirming the intent of Dollard and his companians; last
will and testaments were filed by several of those planning to go, a usual
practice when voyageurs or others left for the pays-d'en-haut. Dollard
borrowed money and promised to repay it. The group had official permission
to go. Others wanted to go with them, including Lambert Closse, Charles
Lemoyne and Pierre Picoté de Belestre, but could not leave until after
planting time. The group returned to Montréal with the body of Duval,
killed by Iroquois, and reported the deaths by drowning of Blaise Juillet
and Soulard, and then left once again, joined this time by the 17th member,
who did not leave on the original departure date.
I myself copied the registers of Notre-Dame de Montréal this afternoon, and
discovered something I have not seen reported before. News of the deaths
at the fort of Sault de la Chaudière, delivered by a Huron who escaped from
the Iroquois, was received before 3 June 1660, when the entry was made
listing the names of the deceased. Next to the name of Robert Jurie, "24
ans. No' avons appris qu'il s'est sauver par les hollandois, et retourne
en france." We have learned that he saved himself through the Hollanders (
inhabitants of New Holland or modern-day Albany, New York) and returned to
France. I've never seen this reported in any account I have read to date.
As for your > Long Sault is West of Montreal,
just like Ile St-Paul, so it makes sense they went in that direction
while the Iroquois usually came from Richelieu River, which is the
opposite direction.<
The Iroquois had been marauding in the area of modern-day Western Québec
and Ontario, the Georgian Bay region, since the mid 1640s. They had
destroyed Huronia, killed many Hurons, adopted many, and driven some of the
surviving Hurons as far as modern-day Green Bay, Wisconsin, even to the
Mississippi. By 1660, the fur trade had come to almost a complete stop
because the Iroquois claimed all of the former Huron and Algonquin
territory as their hunting ground.
Radisson and Groseilliers were about to be on their way back to the colony
with the first successful convoy of furs in years, 60 canoes worth, even as
Dollard, his companions, and 4 Algonquins and 40 Hurons withstood the seige
at Long Sault. Perhaps the Native involvement is the part that has been
neglected the most. Radisson gives an account of finding the remnants of
the battle.
Suzanne
Suzanne Boivin Sommerville
Michigan, USA
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Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:38:24 -0500
From: Denis Beauregard <spam-is-...@genealogie.com.invalid>
To: GEN-...@rootsweb.com
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Summary: Les Productions FrancoGene - La ligne "Organization" a été volée
par Sympatico.ca, "Organization" header stolen by Sympatico.ca.
Subject: Re: La Grande Recrue de 1653
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Helene Lamarche
either filed under "F" (for fiction) or "H" (for humour - second degree,
that is) but definitely not under H.
If he had properly indicated his sources, yours would be an idle question.
HL
""P Moreland"" <pmor...@attbi.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
006501c2bdd5$0a4e9100$9600...@attbi.com...
M.W. Poirier
Long-Sault was on the St. Lawrence river. It was not. It
was on the Ottawa, between Pointe-Fortune, Quebec, and
Hawkesbury, Ontario. The exact location has never been
found, and there has been much debate about this in the
literature. Some scholars are of the view that it was on
the north shore of the Ottawa, while others are of the belief
that it was on the south shore. The great majority of people
seem to think that it was closer to present day Pointe-Fortune
than to Hawkesbury.
See Robert Legget, _Ottawa Waterway: Gateway to a Continent_
Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1975
You might also want to have a look at:
Helen H. Lambart and G.R. Rigby, "Submerged History of the
Long Sault," Canadian Geographical Journal, Vol. LXVII No.5
(November 1963), 146-158.
I hope this clarifies things.
M.W. Poirier
======================================================================
In article <174.15245d...@aol.com>, Nor...@aol.com writes...
Denis Beauregard
(Suzanne B Sommerville) wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
>
>Denis,
>You really shouldn't claim the sources are not extant for the Long Sault
>episode. Visit Septentrion's web site for a good summary in connection
>with a book in French published in 2001. Check under the heading _Du coq à
>l'âne_
>
>http://www.septentrion.qc.ca/
I even found the book at my local library.
>The problem is not the sources but what has been done with them. Notarial
>records exist confirming the intent of Dollard and his companians; last
>will and testaments were filed by several of those planning to go, a usual
>practice when voyageurs or others left for the pays-d'en-haut. Dollard
Actually, only 2 wills were made (Tavernier and Valets)
>borrowed money and promised to repay it. The group had official permission
>to go. Others wanted to go with them, including Lambert Closse, Charles
>Lemoyne and Pierre Picoté de Belestre, but could not leave until after
>planting time. The group returned to Montréal with the body of Duval,
>killed by Iroquois, and reported the deaths by drowning of Blaise Juillet
Are you sure about that ?
Nicolas Duval was a domestic at the fort
Mathurin Soulard was a carpenter at the fort
Blaise Juillet already had 4 children
So 2 employees of the fort and one head of family. Actually, in the
story as told in the DCB, the 3 were not in the Dollard group at all.
Let's see the Long Sault troup:
Adam DAULAT a:25 years
was officially a soldier and "co-commandant of the garnison"
Christophe AUGIER dit DESJARDINS a:26 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Jacques BOISSEAU dit COGNAC a:23 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Jacques BRASSIER a:25 years, recrue 1653
Francois CRUSSON dit PILOTE a:24 years, recrue 1653
Alonie DELESTRE a:31 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Rene DOUCIN a:30 years, miller and soldier, recrue 1653
Simon GRENET a:25 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Laurent HEBERT dit LARIVIERE a:27 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Nicolas JOSSELIN a:25 years, recrue 1653
Robert JURIE a:24 years, arrived in 1658 or before, the only survivor
Jean LECOMPTE a:26 years, recrue 1653
Louis MARTIN a:21 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Etienne ROBIN dit DES FORGES a:27 years, recrue 1653
Nicolas TIBLEMONT a:25 years, arrived in 1658 or before
Jean TAVERNIER dit LALOCHETIERE armurier a:28 years, recrue 1653
Jean VALETS a:27 years, recrue 1653
So, half of them were there since 1653.
>and Soulard, and then left once again, joined this time by the 17th member,
>who did not leave on the original departure date.
>
>I myself copied the registers of Notre-Dame de Montréal this afternoon, and
>discovered something I have not seen reported before. News of the deaths
>at the fort of Sault de la Chaudière, delivered by a Huron who escaped from
>the Iroquois, was received before 3 June 1660, when the entry was made
>listing the names of the deceased. Next to the name of Robert Jurie, "24
>ans. No' avons appris qu'il s'est sauver par les hollandois, et retourne
>en france." We have learned that he saved himself through the Hollanders (
>inhabitants of New Holland or modern-day Albany, New York) and returned to
>France. I've never seen this reported in any account I have read to date.
However, it is in the "death record" of Jurie in the PRDH database.
>As for your > Long Sault is West of Montreal,
>just like Ile St-Paul, so it makes sense they went in that direction
>while the Iroquois usually came from Richelieu River, which is the
>opposite direction.<
>
>The Iroquois had been marauding in the area of modern-day Western Québec
>and Ontario, the Georgian Bay region, since the mid 1640s. They had
>destroyed Huronia, killed many Hurons, adopted many, and driven some of the
>surviving Hurons as far as modern-day Green Bay, Wisconsin, even to the
>Mississippi. By 1660, the fur trade had come to almost a complete stop
>because the Iroquois claimed all of the former Huron and Algonquin
>territory as their hunting ground.
>
>Radisson and Groseilliers were about to be on their way back to the colony
>with the first successful convoy of furs in years, 60 canoes worth, even as
>Dollard, his companions, and 4 Algonquins and 40 Hurons withstood the seige
And I just read that Radisson and Desgroseillers could do it because
of the Long Sault attack. And one theory is the expedition was
to open the route to Radisson.
The story reminds somewhat ambiguous.
There were 800 Iroquois on the war trail ready to attack Montreal
with only 400 inhabitants. They cleaned up Huronia in the 1640s with
much more people there, so why not wipping out the French too ?
After all, they were right in the middle of their territory, and
much less numberous than the New Englanders. And the Iroquois
eated the 16 people (as someone related). They usually do that to
catch their courage.
As for Radisson, he was captured in 1651 and to some extant raised by
Iroquois. He finally escaped them through the Hollandese colony,
was even in Amsterdam before getting back to New France. His
expedition occured from August 1659 to August 1660 (3 months after
Long Sault). And in 1662, Radisson switched to the English after
the French state. From DCB:
"Disappointment was in store for the triumphant explorers. Radisson
tells of the hard usage he and his brother-in-law suffered when greedy
officials confiscated a large part of the furs, threw the older man
into jail, and fined both men - presumably for having gone to the west
without the governor's permission. "
The number of deaths caused by Iroquois can be meaningfull:
1658 None
1659 2
1660 The 3 of Ile St-Paul, the 16 of Long Sault and one last in July
1661 32 (!) in may places including Tadoussac and Quebec
Less during the next years but it is only in 1667 that they killed no
one (I looked for "Iroquois" in the notes of death records)
Maybe they finally save the colony ? In 1660, Iroquois killed only
one more person, so the attack on the colony stopped (if the 800
Iroquois at Long Sault were there to attack the colony). So, let's
say they wanted their revenge in 1661. They had enough people to
attack Ville-Marie but they didn't. And anyway, Talon called the
Regiment of Carignan to help (this brought 400 more colonists) and
later they needed Filles du Roy, so some result of Long Sault was
around 1000 new settlers in the colony in the 15 or 20 next years.
So, maybe the 17 of Long Sault were a small group who wanted to do
something for their glory (chevaleresque spirit maybe ?). But when
looking at the whole scene, the results were a lot more.
Keep in mind that:
- they were presented as heroes because of a suicidal mission while
they didn't know that 700 to 800 Iroquois were on the war trail
- they were presented as heroes because they killed 1/3 of the
Iroquois which is likely wrong (the lost of the Iroquois are
estimated to about 20, not 200)
- Dollard was presented as being there to catch the fur carried
by Radisson while actually it was to harass the Iroquois who were
carrying their furs to the hollandese colony
- Dollard was presented as a bad guy (bad reputation), which doesn't
fit with existing records
The debate was about those points.
Denis
Suzanne B Sommerville
SuzanneDate: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:59:57 -0500<snip>
Subject: Re: La Grande Recrue de 1653
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 00:56:31 +0000 (UTC), 11043...@compuserve.com
(Suzanne B Sommerville) wrote in soc.genealogy.french:
>
>Denis,
>You really shouldn't claim the sources are not extant for the Long Sault
>episode. Visit Septentrion's web site for a good summary in connection
>with a book in French published in 2001. Check under the heading _Du coq
à
>l'âne_
>
>http://www.septentrion.qc.ca/
I even found the book at my local library.
>The problem is not the sources but what has been done with them. Notarial
>records exist confirming the intent of Dollard and his companians; last
>will and testaments were filed by several of those planning to go, a usual
>practice when voyageurs or others left for the pays-d'en-haut. Dollard
Actually, only 2 wills were made (Tavernier and Valets)
[Bénigne Basset, 5 avril 1660, Transport de Jean Lecomte à Marin Deniau,
and 18 avril, Donation par Jean Valets à Jean Pichard]
>borrowed money and promised to repay it. The group had official
permission
>to go. Others wanted to go with them, including Lambert Closse, Charles
>Lemoyne and Pierre Picoté de Belestre, but could not leave until after
>planting time. The group returned to Montréal with the body of Duval,
>killed by Iroquois, and reported the deaths by drowning of Blaise Juillet
Are you sure about that ?
[The source is François Dollier de Casson in his history written some years
after the fact and discovered only in 1844. Dollier was not in New France
until 1666. The church entry says Juillet and Soulard died by drowning in
trying to save themselves from the Iroquois; the two drowned bodies had
not yet been recovered on 20 April 1660.]
Nicolas Duval was a domestic at the fort
Mathurin Soulard was a carpenter at the fort
Blaise Juillet already had 4 children
So 2 employees of the fort and one head of family. Actually, in the
story as told in the DCB, the 3 were not in the Dollard group at all.
[I was not precise enough here. I did not mean to imply that they were.
They were simply outside of the fortifications. According to Dollier,
Dollard and his group of 15 apparently scared the attackers off and
confiscated the canoe of the Iroquois, and its contents. He may be the
source for the report that _all_ of the men confessed and put their affairs
in order before leaving. ]
[Yes, to its credit, PRDH works from the actual records, and does not copy
someone's undocumented history. Perhaps the new book is aware the register
says Jurie escaped. The deaths of Jacques Boisseau dit Cognac and René
Doussin were known by at least 25 and 26 May, when inventories of their
possessions were taken. Dollard's property was not inventoried until 6
November, and not sold until 19 April 1661 (Basset).
The Church entry reads, as best I can decipher the handwriting:
Nous avons recu nouvelles par un huron qui sestoit sauvé d'entre les mains
des Iroquois qui lavoient pris prisonier ua combat qui sestoit fait 8 jours
auparavant entre les did Iroquois qui estoient au nombre de huict cent et
dix sept francois de cette habitation et quatre AlgonKins et environ
quarante hurons u pied du long saut que treize de nos dit francois avoient
esté tues sur la place et quatre emmenez prisoniers les quels dit depuis
nous avons appris par 4 autres hurons que se sont Sauvez aurons esté
cruellment bruslez par les dit Iroquois en leur pays. Or les noms des
francois morts estoient.
"We have received news by a Huron who escaped from the hands of the
Iroquois who took him prisoner at the combat that occurred 8 days before
between the said Iroquois, who were 800 in number, and 17 Frenchmen of this
habitation and 4 AlgonKins and about 40 Hurons at the foot of the 'long
saut', that 13 of our said Frenchmen were killed on the spot and four taken
prisoners, the said [4 Frenchmen], we have since learned from 4 other
Hurons who saved themselves, were cruelly burned by the said Iroquois in
their country. Thus, the names of the dead Frenchmen are"
One of the Hurons was named Louis. He and the others were interviewed by
Marie de l'Incarnation and at least two Jesuits, and the story was
transmitted by these writers. One account describes the death of one of
the French and some of the captured Natives in Iroquoia. As I said in my
earlier post, the Native side of the issue has not effectively been told.]
>As for your > Long Sault is West of Montreal,
>just like Ile St-Paul, so it makes sense they went in that direction
>while the Iroquois usually came from Richelieu River, which is the
>opposite direction.<
>
>The Iroquois had been marauding in the area of modern-day Western Québec
>and Ontario, the Georgian Bay region, since the mid 1640s. They had
>destroyed Huronia, killed many Hurons, adopted many, and driven some of
the
>surviving Hurons as far as modern-day Green Bay, Wisconsin, even to the
>Mississippi. By 1660, the fur trade had come to almost a complete stop
>because the Iroquois claimed all of the former Huron and Algonquin
>territory as their hunting ground.
>
>Radisson and Groseilliers were about to be on their way back to the colony
>with the first successful convoy of furs in years, 60 canoes worth, even
as
>Dollard, his companions, and 4 Algonquins and 40 Hurons withstood the
seige
And I just read that Radisson and Desgroseillers could do it because
of the Long Sault attack. And one theory is the expedition was
to open the route to Radisson. [ Chouart des Groseilliers and Radisson
were definitely treated badly by the French. Radisson's accounts of his
travels were eventually published in a horrible English translation, the
original French no longer in existence.]
The story reminds somewhat ambiguous.
There were 800 Iroquois on the war trail ready to attack Montreal
with only 400 inhabitants. They cleaned up Huronia in the 1640s with
much more people there, so why not wipping out the French too ? [See below]
After all, they were right in the middle of their territory, and
much less numberous than the New Englanders. And the Iroquois
eated the 16 people (as someone related). They usually do that to
catch their courage.
As for Radisson, he was captured in 1651 and to some extant raised by
Iroquois. He finally escaped them through the Hollandese colony,
was even in Amsterdam before getting back to New France. His
expedition occured from August 1659 to August 1660 (3 months after
Long Sault). And in 1662, Radisson switched to the English after
the French state. From DCB:
"Disappointment was in store for the triumphant explorers. Radisson
tells of the hard usage he and his brother-in-law suffered when greedy
officials confiscated a large part of the furs, threw the older man
into jail, and fined both men - presumably for having gone to the west
without the governor's permission. " [Both men tried to return to serve the
French, but both again defected.]
The number of deaths caused by Iroquois can be meaningfull:
1658 None
[This 'none" is misleading because this year was a year of negotiations.
The Iroquois, especially the Agniers / Mohawks, wanted their people taken
prisoner in battles to be returned to them At one council, a Mohawk
advised the French not to meddle in the wars the Iroquois were waging
against the Algonquins and the Hurons. You see, it wasn't just conflict
between the Iroquois and the French, although in this year three French
were captured at Trois-Rivières, Adrien Jolliet, Fouquet (who was later
burned on an island off Montréal) and Christophe. Jolliet and Christophe
were later returned. There were captives taken at Cap Rouge and again in
Trois-Rivières, and at least 3 others, including Antoine Desrosiers. In
1658, 15 French were prisoners in Iroquoia. Source: Léo-Paul Desrosiers,
_Iroquoia_, Tome 2, taken from the Jesuit relations and letters and other
contemporary reports. Similar reports of deaths and capture occur for the
following years.]
1659 2
1660 The 3 of Ile St-Paul, the 16 of Long Sault and one last in July
1661 32 (!) in may places including Tadoussac and Quebec
Less during the next years but it is only in 1667 that they killed no
one (I looked for "Iroquois" in the notes of death records)
Maybe they finally save the colony ? In 1660, Iroquois killed only
one more person, so the attack on the colony stopped (if the 800
Iroquois at Long Sault were there to attack the colony). So, let's
say they wanted their revenge in 1661. They had enough people to
attack Ville-Marie but they didn't. And anyway, Talon called the
Regiment of Carignan to help (this brought 400 more colonists) and
later they needed Filles du Roy, so some result of Long Sault was
around 1000 new settlers in the colony in the 15 or 20 next years.
So, maybe the 17 of Long Sault were a small group who wanted to do
something for their glory (chevaleresque spirit maybe ?). But when
looking at the whole scene, the results were a lot more.
Keep in mind that:
- they were presented as heroes because of a suicidal mission while
they didn't know that 700 to 800 Iroquois were on the war trail
[They could not have expected to meet a large contingent returning from
hunting to join comrades massing near the Richelieu to invade New France.
Québec did not learn of it until June, information also reported by the
Hurons and a captured Iroquois. André Vachon's account in the _Dictionary
of Canadian Biography_ Vol. 1, is worth reading. He also speaks of the
various "twists" historians have given the event.]
- they were presented as heroes because they killed 1/3 of the
Iroquois which is likely wrong (the lost of the Iroquois are
estimated to about 20, not 200) [The records in the NY colonial documents
cite a lower number. But then, the "massacre" of Lachine was blown out of
proportion by contemporaries as well.]
- Dollard was presented as being there to catch the fur carried
by Radisson while actually it was to harass the Iroquois who were
carrying their furs to the hollandese colony
- Dollard was presented as a bad guy (bad reputation), which doesn't
fit with existing records
The debate was about those points.
[Yes, and if I have learned anything from my reading of original records
over the last several years, it is that "historians" often have a political
slant to present. The other important lesson I have learned is that the
older historians did not necessarily have access to documents that are now
available, many did not even cite their sources, and, in the case of
writers in English, they most often relied on published translations of the
documents, most of which are partial and sometimes inaccurate in
translation. A third is that even contemporary accounts are not always as
precise as they seem to be. Disinformation was not invented in the 20th
century! It's been -- and continues to be -- a real adventure! Suzanne]
Denis
>at Long Sault. Perhaps the Native involvement is the part that has been
>neglected the most. Radisson gives an account of finding the remnants of
>the battle.
>Suzanne
>Suzanne Boivin Sommerville
>Michigan, USA
<In response to>
Suzanne B Sommerville
_Iroquoia_, Tome 2, <
Correction. The English side of my fingers didn't hear the French side of
my brain. It's _Iroquoisie_, published in 1998 by Septentrion, one of four
volumes of Desrosiers's work.
Suzanne