Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks debate in Nigeria
shin...@my-deja.com
Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
debate in Nigeria
By TOYE OLORI
Lagos (IPS) - The painting of a Black Virgin Mary
by a London-based Nigerian artist, Chris Ofili, has
sparked a heated debate in Nigeria.
The painting, which has been exhibited in Brooklyn
Museum, New York, for three weeks now, depicts
a Black Virgin Mary with breasts made of elephant
dung.
Besides enraging Cathrine Acholonu, Special
Adviser to President Olusegun Obasanjo on Arts
and Culture, the painting has also sparked a heated
debate in Nigeria.
In a statement issued in the capital Abuja last week,
Acholonu criticised the painting as an abuse of
African womanhood and motherhood. She says that
the Virgin Mary represented the African equivalent
of a matriarch who should be seen as a role model
for young women and mothers.
She says the symbolism of elephant dung used in
Ofili's painting, Sensation, violated all the artistic
and cultural tradition of Africans.
"All over the continent and in Nigeria, African
traditional behaviour is destinguished by cleanliness,
restraint and a sense of order and propriety.
Africans don't plaster themselves or their
environment with faeces, a substance which they
view with disdain," says Acholonu, a playright, poet
and literary critic.
She notes that, while democratisation has restored
free speech, African creative artists should not use it
to promote such decadent art as portrayed by the
Ofili painting.
"Sensation is one sure way to derail entire
generations of questing young African minds. The
painting had further cheapened African culture,
womanhood and spirituality by portraying Africans
as incapable of conceiving a spiritual phenomenon,
such as the Madonna without smearing it with filth
and obscenity," Acholonu says.
She urged Nigerians to respect the religious
sensibilities of others in line with government's
respect for religious diversity in Nigeria.
Acholonu also describes as fallacy, the defence by
some art critics whom, she says, have tried to
deceive the Western audience by referring to
elephant dung as means of expression in African
arts.
"It is a fallacy. What faeces is in Africa is what
feaces is all over the world. It is something that is
dirty. Ofili should have a rethink," she says.
"African men are mother worshippers and so the
Virgin Mary should not be painted with dung. Every
African woman will take exception to the
interposition and mixing of the idea of a matriarch
with pornography. We can't afford the luxury that
corrupts our children, mess up the image and icons
of the society," she says.
At the heat of the controversy generated by the
exhibition of Ofili's painting, the Mayor of New
York, Rudolph Giuliani, had threatened to cut off
the city's $7.2 million subsidy to the museum, unless
the exhibition was cancelled.
However, Dele Jegede, a Nigerian Arts teacher in
Indiana State University, was quoted by
newspapers as saying that Ofili had been
misunderstood in the painting.
"One thing I don't like in the whole issue is that Ofili
used elephant dung from his African home. It is all a
misunderstanding. I find it really problematic for
people to see an artist in that light. What happens if
Ofili had been a German or Briton," Jegede was
quoted as saying.
Francis Nwosu, a journalist and an art critic, does
not see anything wrong or controversial about the
painting.
"As an artist, he can represent Virgin Mary the way
he feels and perceives her. How are we sure Virgin
Mary was not black and if she was not as beautiful
as the early Christians and artists of those days
portrayed her? That also was a product of their
thinking and an artistic impression by them", Nwosu
told IPS in Lagos.
Nwosu believes that the use of elephant dung does
not in any way defame the Virgin Mary or the
Christain faith.
Nwosu says that a similar painting by renowned
Nigerian artist, Bruce Onobrakpeya, generated
controversy but critics were eventually
overshadowed by those who supported the work.
One of Onobrakpeya's oil paintings, dated 1976,
depicts Jesus Christ with the cross and Women of
Jerusalem on the way to Calvary, all blacks and in
African costumes with the cross well decorated.
The idea of the painting, according to
Onobrakpeya, was to encourage the use of African
art and craft in Christian worship.
"Here Jesus Christ and other religious figures were
to be treated as universal, laying emphasis on the
Christian essence rather than a belaboured
geographical, anatomical and costume study of
Jewish and Roman people.
"These morals generated a lot of criticism,
unleashed by some priests and laity of the parish,"
Onobrakpeya told the Lagos Guardian newspaper
recently.
Like the controversy generated by Onobrakpeya's
work on Station of the Cross, the comments by
Obasanjo's Adviser on Arts and Culture has been
criticised by Yinka Oyegbile in a reaction published
by the Guardian last weekend.
Oyegbile says that Acholonu's criticism of Ofili's
painting was based on her confessed faith of
Catholicism which sees the image of Mary as
sacred.
"Her criticism, rather than representing the views of
government, is I think, her own world view and
bias. She should have left her religious view out of
this sensitive issue," he argues.
from MISAnet/Inter Press Service
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rootz
shin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> October 27, 1999
>
> Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
> debate in Nigeria
>
Talk about a storm in a teacup! I laughed when it broke over in
New York and I'm laughing again now. The concept that some elected or
appointed official can impose their own personal sensibilities on me is
hilarious - apart from being very dangerous, of course. Note the
differing foci of the concerns - Ms Achonolu is concerned about the
representation of African culture via faeces, while Mayor Guilani is
offended by the religious aspect. No one actually complains (in public)
about the Virgin Mary being black. Any reason why?
"Sensation is one sure way to derail entire generations of questing
young African minds." Heh, heh, heh. A piece of art is going to...
what? Make me question my culture and heritage, make me quest after
other (Western) sources of understanding? Nah, not me.
BTW, I personally believe that the use of elephant dung in art is a
load of crap - as it it were - but if the intention of a piece of art
is not to hurt, then it cannot be prevented by any reason that does not
impose on an individual's right to self-expression. I don't think that
in this context, to insult or to offend someone is the same as to hurt
them. If you don't like it, don't look. This may not apply in all
cases, but it does in this. Any thoughts?
Rutendo
Frank
Rootz <rute...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7v9jfo$qce$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
> > debate in Nigeria
> >
>
> New York and I'm laughing again now. The concept that some elected or
> appointed official can impose their own personal sensibilities on me is
> hilarious - apart from being very dangerous, of course. Note the
> differing foci of the concerns - Ms Achonolu is concerned about the
> representation of African culture via faeces, while Mayor Guilani is
> offended by the religious aspect. No one actually complains (in public)
> about the Virgin Mary being black. Any reason why?
>
> what? Make me question my culture and heritage, make me quest after
> other (Western) sources of understanding? Nah, not me.
>
> BTW, I personally believe that the use of elephant dung in art is a
> load of crap - as it it were - but if the intention of a piece of art
> is not to hurt, then it cannot be prevented by any reason that does not
> impose on an individual's right to self-expression. I don't think that
> in this context, to insult or to offend someone is the same as to hurt
> them. If you don't like it, don't look. This may not apply in all
> cases, but it does in this. Any thoughts?
>
> Rutendo
>
>
used much wiser ( hospital or similar)
Frank
Your_Worst_Nightmare
dung that was used and the virgin mary been black, you guys have not
mentioned the real contrast in chris so called art, by having cutouts from
PORN magazine around the virgin mary. From the cutouts it clearly shows
females fondlling their genitals. I find this very disturbing thinking of
mixing something very holy as the virgin Mary and SLUTS from magazine is
very dis-respectful to religion as a whole. What do you think...?
Frank <bu...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:1LYR3.100$hp5....@dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net...
>
> Rootz <rute...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:7v9jfo$qce$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <7v8530$ql0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > shin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > October 27, 1999
> > >
> > > Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
> > > debate in Nigeria
> > >
> >
> > Talk about a storm in a teacup! I laughed when it broke over in
> > New York and I'm laughing again now. The concept that some elected or
> > appointed official can impose their own personal sensibilities on me is
> > hilarious - apart from being very dangerous, of course. Note the
> > differing foci of the concerns - Ms Achonolu is concerned about the
> > representation of African culture via faeces, while Mayor Guilani is
> > offended by the religious aspect. No one actually complains (in public)
> > about the Virgin Mary being black. Any reason why?
> >
> > "Sensation is one sure way to derail entire generations of questing
Byker
>I don't think that
>in this context, to insult or to offend someone is the same as to hurt
>them. If you don't like it, don't look. This may not apply in all
>cases, but it does in this. Any thoughts?
I wonder how long a native Tanzanian would live were he to exhibit a bust of
Julius Nyerere made out of human shit......
kousan
says...
>
>Hmm guys, i say this art at the brooklyn museum, apart from the elephant
>dung that was used and the virgin mary been black, you guys have not
>mentioned the real contrast in chris so called art, by having cutouts from
>PORN magazine around the virgin mary. From the cutouts it clearly shows
>females fondlling their genitals. I find this very disturbing thinking of
>mixing something very holy as the virgin Mary and SLUTS from magazine is
>very dis-respectful to religion as a whole. What do you think...?
>
>
elephant dung part by the way has Indian religious origins. the sluts are
western decadence, the black virgin is a challenge, to want her to be pure
you'd have to buy that immaculate conception myth, which I don't think anyone
does so.
welcome to the 20th century mary we love ya!
charley brown and Snoopy
White House.
kousan <kou...@pop.mpls.uswest.net> wrote in message
news:KHST3.1697$cR.7...@news.uswest.net...
charley brown and Snoopy
Jean-Louis <jlin...@nbs.co.za> wrote in message
news:381feb73$0$21...@helios.is.co.za...
> The fact that the Vergin Mary is painted black is not an issue, there are
> many instances where she is represented being black, intentionally or per
> accident (paint turned black by centuries of exposure to light or ..???).
>
> The issue is using DUNG, and (if this is true, off course) having cuttings
> from porn magazines stuck around his so called "art piece" to paint a
> "Holly" or "Sacred" figure. This is a direct insult to Christianity.
>
> I am for the freedom of speech, art and all, but is it necessary to insult
> profoundly some peoples in the name of freedom ???
>
> I would be very happy "in the name of art" to create a masterpiece, chain
> the "artist" on a big board, to spread HIS face with "human DUNG" - call
it
> "shitface" but I think I would be arrested for that ! Why ? I consider it
as
> ART. (I don't think HE would !).
>
> Jean-Louis Indekeu
>
>
> Rootz wrote in message <7v9jfo$qce$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <7v8530$ql0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > shin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> October 27, 1999
> >>
> >> Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
> >> debate in Nigeria
> >>
> >
> >Talk about a storm in a teacup! I laughed when it broke over in
> >New York and I'm laughing again now. The concept that some elected or
> >appointed official can impose their own personal sensibilities on me is
> >hilarious - apart from being very dangerous, of course. Note the
> >differing foci of the concerns - Ms Achonolu is concerned about the
> >representation of African culture via faeces, while Mayor Guilani is
> >offended by the religious aspect. No one actually complains (in public)
> >about the Virgin Mary being black. Any reason why?
> >
> >"Sensation is one sure way to derail entire generations of questing
> >young African minds." Heh, heh, heh. A piece of art is going to...
> >what? Make me question my culture and heritage, make me quest after
> >other (Western) sources of understanding? Nah, not me.
> >
> >BTW, I personally believe that the use of elephant dung in art is a
> >load of crap - as it it were - but if the intention of a piece of art
> >is not to hurt, then it cannot be prevented by any reason that does not
> >impose on an individual's right to self-expression. I don't think that
> >in this context, to insult or to offend someone is the same as to hurt
> >them. If you don't like it, don't look. This may not apply in all
> >cases, but it does in this. Any thoughts?
> >
> >Rutendo
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: There is NO EXCUSE for this so-called ART.
That's right, some of us don't exactly see why the art would need to be
excused.
BTW, what became of the museum and the Mayor of New York?
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
insulted to see anything covered with "feces" and called art, regardless of
race or religion.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7vskge$je1$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: I am not sure, but Hit-ler-ry came to the aid of the "artist". I would be
: insulted to see anything covered with "feces" and called art, regardless of
: race or religion.
If you don't go see it, then you won't be insulted. I'll tell you
something. Do you like salad? hrm...okay, maybe you don't. Have you ever
eaten salad in your life? There are people in my hometown that will call
you a goat if and whenever they see you eating "leaves". So before you go
condeming people's works, be very aware of the fact that the very things
that -you- think are normal might be what other people think is
freaky,...and vice versa. And the one time solution seems to be to mind
your business.
Practicality: If you don't like the idea of putting faeces on a work of
art, then quit yer bitching and don't go see it.
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
Ok, you win, I will not sit here and argue with a BLACK woman that thinks
this is acceptable.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7vsoqd$ram$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Mary
: So I take it you "SUPPORT" Shit being put on a BLACK woman, Virgin MARY?
Haven't said I "support" it. I just don't give a crap. If I went to see
it, it'd just be for curiousity's sakes. I don't care much for art, but
the way this thing has been blown up, I might as well go see what it's all
about.
: Ok, you win, I will not sit here and argue with a BLACK woman that thinks
: this is acceptable.
Yep. You're right. Don't ask me more, or you may not like what you'll
hear.
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
Snoopy home.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7vsri2$3no$2...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Your_Worst_Nightmare
Mary
Your_Worst_Nightmare <markav...@hotmail.com> Scribbled:
: I saw it, it's a bunch of CRAP for art....
Well, so are many other things out there. Is this, in any way, different
from those?
--
blah
anon
SpacedOutFool
--
Mark The spacedoutfool
A woman a day keeps the Doktor away. Check out my homepage for more of such
highly witty coments. www.burse.uni-hamburg.de/~mark .
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
7vsoqd$ram$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> While posting to soc.culture.nigeria,
> charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
>
charley brown and Snoopy
press the envelope of decency. I could care less what they do, but since MY
TAX money goes to fund these kinds of things, then I do care.
Basically the "Artist" took a black statue of the "virgin Mary" and smeared
Elephant Shit on it, and called it ART. There was also pictorial cutouts of
a vagina on the statue? It has to be a joke, but after 8 years of Bill
Clinton I realize these people are serious, you can read some of the
postings by the liberal nitwits on this USENET group and realize that
Liberalism and idiocy are alive and well.
SpacedOutFool <ma...@burse.uni-hamburg.de> wrote in message
news:80hcoq$4g2$1...@rzsun03.rrz.uni-hamburg.de...
SpacedOutFool
matter. Definately, that is no art, there is no doubt about that, but I did
not pay it, and everybody who appreciates it has a right to go appreciate
it.
--
Mark The spacedoutfool
Check out my homepage for more of such highly witty coments.
www.burse.uni-hamburg.de/~mark .
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@Snoopy.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
wn_W3.67925$YB4.1...@typ12.nn.bcandid.com...
William S Hubbard
> But I agree with some of the comments I read on this issue - it does not
Your_Worst_Nightmare
some cut-out pictures of females fondling their genitals, this is not "they
told me" situation i saw it myself....
William S Hubbard <bobby...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:80lrn4$3cai$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
charley brown and Snoopy
Your_Worst_Nightmare <markav...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:80rmk2$amj$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Michael Brader
> And as an American Taxpayer I should not be paying for it!
So you only want to pay for art you like?
Or art that doesn't offend anyone?
Would you be as upset if it was an oriental Buddha surrounded by vaginas
and dung.
Or a white Klansman surrounded by vaginas and dung.
I'm sure the art world will be so much more enriched when only works
that you approve of can be displayed in publicly funded galleries.
PS. The Virgin Mary had a vagina you know. And she probably took a
shit occasionally as well.
--
Michael Brader
Aurema Pty Ltd (formerly Softway Pty Ltd)
PO Box 305, Strawberry Hills, NSW 2012, Australia
Email:mbr...@aurema.com, Tel: +61 2 9698 2322, Fax: +61 2 9699 9174
David Freeman
It show little respect for a people and religion, just as the Virgin
Mary surrounded by dung and vaginas shows little respect for the
Catholic faith.
As government-funded art, the art should not be purposefully meant to be
offensive to a large number of people, or denigrating to a certain group
of people (within reason).
And its not art, anyways. It's in the same category as 'Piss Christ'
which was a simple crucifix in a jar of the artist's urine.
I believe that it shows that Western culture is reaching its nadir.
Consumer culture produces consumer art, cheap and tacky. The
intellectual elite has abstracted itself away from reality, giving the
label of 'art' to objects which have as much claim to 'art' as my first
grade finger-paintings (if not less).
In comparison, art outside the West remains dynamic. The sculptures of
Zimbabwe, despite a resembland to Western 'modern art, convey far
greater emotion and dynamism than the Western world is currently
generating.
charley brown and Snoopy
if it was covered with dung. Sorry Liberals, you pay for it. Do you talk
with a lisp too? Even if it was you standing in a "poofta" pose I wouldn't
want to pay for it. Sorry, why don't you lobby for a tax increase in
Australia, and have all of these talented artist come down under, you pay
for the show.
Michael Brader <mbr...@aurema.com> wrote in message
news:qcd7t8u...@swag.sw.oz.au...
charley brown and Snoopy
it. Religion isn't the point, it's the tax dollars used to push all the
buttons of decency that I don't feel like paying for. If it was paid for
using private money, I would still be offended but that is part of Freedom.
Now since its MY tax money, I do care. I owe 5 digits of land taxes this
month(yearly tax), and I do not want a cent of it going towards this kind of
art.
David Freeman <fre...@wpi.edu> wrote in message
news:3833B97A...@wpi.edu...
> I would be offended by an Oriental Buddha surrounded vaginas and dung.
> It show little respect for a people and religion, just as the Virgin
> Mary surrounded by dung and vaginas shows little respect for the
> Catholic faith.
>
> As government-funded art, the art should not be purposefully meant to be
> offensive to a large number of people, or denigrating to a certain group
> of people (within reason).
>
> And its not art, anyways. It's in the same category as 'Piss Christ'
> which was a simple crucifix in a jar of the artist's urine.
>
> I believe that it shows that Western culture is reaching its nadir.
> Consumer culture produces consumer art, cheap and tacky. The
> intellectual elite has abstracted itself away from reality, giving the
> label of 'art' to objects which have as much claim to 'art' as my first
> grade finger-paintings (if not less).
>
> In comparison, art outside the West remains dynamic. The sculptures of
> Zimbabwe, despite a resembland to Western 'modern art, convey far
> greater emotion and dynamism than the Western world is currently
> generating.
>
> Michael Brader wrote:
> >
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: Anything covered with dung is not Art,
What would you say of collages covered with sand? What's the big
difference? Yeah, tax payer and blah blah. Have you seen every single
piece in a Museum? What makes you think you'll agree that they're 'Art'?
What's the sudden flexing of muscles all about? This tax payer whining is
-really- lame, because I don't even -like- 'Art', yet, by your argument, I
might have to pay for it, too. So why don't we all quit our bitchin' and
let this fad have it's attention in it's own time?
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
is the deal with the big fuss over the Confederate Flag? That can be
classified as a piece of Art or a symbol? You liberals can't have it both
ways can you.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:811cp7$dde$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: is the deal with the big fuss over the Confederate Flag?
I won't pretend that I follow the entire issue very well. Ask someone
else.
: That can be
: classified as a piece of Art or a symbol?
*shrug*
: You liberals can't have it both
: ways can you.
I have stuff to say about this, but I'll pass.
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
everytime taxes like this hit me, I think about where my tax dollars go. I
don't want them going to obscene art. My land taxes alone are probally more
than the yearly earnings of some of the people that post here. Since I
don't farm most of the land like my ancestors did, I cannot use that as a
tax break. I get stuck with the whole bill.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:811fh6$fbn$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: Well Mary I have land taxes to pay this month and it's 5 digits a year,
: everytime taxes like this hit me, I think about where my tax dollars go. I
: don't want them going to obscene art.
Yeah, like one-quarter of a cent to all Art divided by the total number of
Art works available. Or better yet, whatever. Let's all feel free to whine
at every pin-prink that we manage to hear of. Afterall, "what is life, if
full of care, we have no time to sit and whine about anything that isn't
Mama's promised toy?"
--
blah
charley brown and Snoopy
wasted. You are correct, billions is wasted on other programs or in "pork"
politics. However, the thread was about Art, and this kind of Art ,"I
thought" ,should not be supported with my tax dollars.
Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:811nss$kjf$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
Mary
charley brown and Snoopy <Pea...@snoopy.com> Scribbled:
: thought" ,should not be supported with my tax dollars.
Or your tax cents, however the case may be.
--
blah
Michael Brader
> Anything covered with dung is not Art, I wouldn't want to pay for your face
> if it was covered with dung. Sorry Liberals, you pay for it. Do you talk
> with a lisp too? Even if it was you standing in a "poofta" pose I wouldn't
> want to pay for it. Sorry, why don't you lobby for a tax increase in
> Australia, and have all of these talented artist come down under, you pay
> for the show.
Latht time I lithened, I didn't have a lithp.
I like "lobby for a tax increase". Down here that means "vote for a
politician". :-)
Anyway, we don't have any guaranteed rights to free speech or a bill
of rights down here so religious morons try and get stuff like this
pulled out of art galleries all the time. They rarely succeed though,
because people have more important things to worry about than whether
someone doesn't like to look at something.
Wake up, you don't get to direct your tax in any other way than
voting. I don't like paying tax that supports subsidies for farmers to
produce or even dump crops that are not sustainable. That sort of
waste offends me greatly and I direct my anger by voting for people
who oppose those policies. Thankfully to a great extent farm subsidies
have been eliminated in Australia. It helped that they didn't have
John Cougar singing about poor farmers, only to benefit multinational
farming conglomerates.
On the other hand, subsidies to artists are often productive in
society in that they provoke thought and discussion. This particular
work has done that very well. People have examined their religious
beliefs, censorship and the role of government sponsorship of art, and
possibly had their first up close and personal look at elephant dung.
I'd be happy for my government to sponsor such works to Australia,
although currently they seem to be short sighted rednecks like
you. More's the pity.
It's a shame that those who stand up for confederate ideals so rarely
understand them.
charley brown and Snoopy
war dummy. What does some ignorant Outback-poofta know about this country
USA? Nothing, So what is your point hanging around promoting trouble? You're
a troll, so beat it, unless you are going to add something constructive into
a debate.
PS. I would concentrate on the horrible abuse that your country has
inflicted on the Aborigine inhabitants. This abuse and racism still exist
today. What about your hatred for the Asian immigrants? If you are going to
save the world, a good start would be your own country. You are an ignorant
liberal living "down under".
Michael Brader <mbr...@aurema.com> wrote in message
news:qcvh6zt...@swag.sw.oz.au...
Emopin Ayenuro-Lawrence, Student FB 07
uh? All Europeans are perpetrator of crime wether in the Americas or down under!
I would also suggest you read the constitution of your cursed America if the
right of expression is not guaranteed. Don't know why you make useless and
moronic noise about a certain work of art whereby there are many constructive
areas you can spend the energy. Religion is poison, I wish we were Cannibals and
had eaten the missionaries like they did in many Micronesian islands. We
wouldn't have had many of the troubles we are experiencing in many part of
Africa today. How I wished we had followed the example of Japan. Dear friends,
save your breath and look on the right side of Life!!
Omo Oodua
charley brown and Snoopy schrieb:
Emopin Ayenuro-Lawrence, Student FB 07
Emopin Ayenuro-Lawrence, Student FB 07
uh? All Europeans are perpetrator of crime wether in the Americas or down under!
I would also suggest you read the constitution of your cursed America if the
right of expression is not guaranteed. Don't know why you make useless and
moronic noise about a certain work of art whereby there are many constructive
areas you can spend the energy. Religion is poison, I wish we were Cannibals and
had eaten the missionaries like they did in many Micronesian islands. We
wouldn't have had many of the troubles we are experiencing in many part of
Africa today. How I wished we had followed the example of Japan. Dear friends,
save your breath and look on the right side of Life!!
Omo Oodua
charley brown and Snoopy schrieb:
> First I live in the North, my ancestors died on the UNION side of the civil
> war dummy. What does some ignorant Outback-poofta know about this country
> USA? Nothing, So what is your point hanging around promoting trouble? You're
> a troll, so beat it, unless you are going to add something constructive into
> a debate.
> PS. I would concentrate on the horrible abuse that your country has
> inflicted on the Aborigine inha....
Emopin Ayenuro-Lawrence, Student FB 07
charley brown and Snoopy
"Emopin Ayenuro-Lawrence, Student FB 07" <emo...@student.uni-kassel.de>
wrote in message news:383BDBE4...@student.uni-kassel.de...
> > inflicted on the Aborigine inhabitants. This abuse and racism still
exist
> > today. What about your hatred for the Asian immigrants? If you are going
to
> > save the world, a good start would be your own country. You are an
ignorant
Gary Bartholomew
of all. What's the painting about? About how many dollars some fool can be
persuaded into exchangeing for it. But the Meaning?... It means look at this
thing I'm passing off as art and discuss it. Cheap publicity trick, and
you're the sucker who provides the publicity. If someone wants to think your
God is elephant dung, let 'em. If the painting doesn't provoke any
meaningful debate (and isn't this what political "art" pretends to do on its
way to the bank?) then the appropriate response is to just ignore it. Don't
get tricked into switching your brain off like this again.
Elephant dung is the most magnificent form of dung on earth, by the way. An
elephant craps bales of the stuff in a single sitting, and all of it returns
to the earth as nourishment via dung beetles. Pity there's not as much of it
around as there used to be.
Afore I go... someone in this string spouted some blather about "if only the
missionaries hadn't come"... etc. etc. you know the algorithm. To you, sir:
If you must dwell on the "if-onlies" when there's plenty of here-and-now to
keep you busy, rather say "if only Africans had chosen leaders with
integrity where they chose thieves; or leaders with as much common sense as
integrity where they chose idiots.... " There are more than 40 more
apartheid regimes to be removed from this continent, so now's not the time
for worrying about a clock you can't wind back.
Jean-Louis <jlin...@nbs.co.za> wrote in message
news:381feb73$0$21...@helios.is.co.za...
> The fact that the Vergin Mary is painted black is not an issue, there are
> many instances where she is represented being black, intentionally or per
> accident (paint turned black by centuries of exposure to light or ..???).
>
> The issue is using DUNG, and (if this is true, off course) having cuttings
> from porn magazines stuck around his so called "art piece" to paint a
> "Holly" or "Sacred" figure. This is a direct insult to Christianity.
>
> I am for the freedom of speech, art and all, but is it necessary to insult
> profoundly some peoples in the name of freedom ???
>
> I would be very happy "in the name of art" to create a masterpiece, chain
> the "artist" on a big board, to spread HIS face with "human DUNG" - call
it
> "shitface" but I think I would be arrested for that ! Why ? I consider it
as
> ART. (I don't think HE would !).
>
> Jean-Louis Indekeu
>
>
> Rootz wrote in message <7v9jfo$qce$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <7v8530$ql0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > shin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >> October 27, 1999
> >>
> >> Painting of a black Virgin Mary sparks
> >> debate in Nigeria
> >>
> >
> >Talk about a storm in a teacup! I laughed when it broke over in
> >New York and I'm laughing again now. The concept that some elected or
> >appointed official can impose their own personal sensibilities on me is
> >hilarious - apart from being very dangerous, of course. Note the
> >differing foci of the concerns - Ms Achonolu is concerned about the
> >representation of African culture via faeces, while Mayor Guilani is
> >offended by the religious aspect. No one actually complains (in public)
> >about the Virgin Mary being black. Any reason why?
> >
> >"Sensation is one sure way to derail entire generations of questing
> >young African minds." Heh, heh, heh. A piece of art is going to...
> >what? Make me question my culture and heritage, make me quest after
> >other (Western) sources of understanding? Nah, not me.
> >
> >BTW, I personally believe that the use of elephant dung in art is a
> >load of crap - as it it were - but if the intention of a piece of art
> >is not to hurt, then it cannot be prevented by any reason that does not
> >impose on an individual's right to self-expression. I don't think that
> >in this context, to insult or to offend someone is the same as to hurt
> >them. If you don't like it, don't look. This may not apply in all
> >cases, but it does in this. Any thoughts?
> >
> >Rutendo
> >
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
>
>
Mary
Gary Bartholomew <gary...@intekom.co.za> Scribbled:
: keep you busy, rather say "if only Africans had chosen leaders with
: integrity where they chose thieves; or leaders with as much common sense as
: integrity where they chose idiots.... " There are more than 40 more
: apartheid regimes to be removed from this continent, so now's not the time
So if these weren't just statements to butress your points, I'd like to
tell you that Africans don't *choose* idiots and thieves to be their
Leaders. Dictation is not leadership. One person Organizing to threaten
and kill every other eligible candidate, or rigging all the boxes to stay
in power forever isn't equivalent to his being chosen by his people into
power. I don't ask for a retraction; just think of these things before you
go saying inaccurate things about Africa.
--
blah
Sabsy
Please forgive him, he is a white immigrant in South Africa. They are
still bitching and moaning about the end of apartheid. We are so used
to this now that is has become just another case that will pass away
with constipation medication
Alistair
snip
>So if these weren't just statements to butress your points, I'd like to
>tell you that Africans don't *choose* idiots and thieves to be their
>Leaders.
In most African countries, those are the only choices that exist.
>Dictation is not leadership.
No, but dictatorship is, in a way.
> One person Organizing to threaten
>and kill every other eligible candidate, or rigging all the boxes to stay
>in power forever isn't equivalent to his being chosen by his people into
>power. I don't ask for a retraction; just think of these things before you
>go saying inaccurate things about Africa.
And what does someone from Georgia know about Africa ?
David Freeman
Whats your problem? Are all white Africans automatically racist?
Sabsy wrote:
>
> In article <881l79$mn4$4...@news-int.gatech.edu>,
> Mary <jane...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > While posting to soc.culture.african.american,
> > Gary Bartholomew <gary...@intekom.co.za> Scribbled:
> >
> > : keep you busy, rather say "if only Africans had chosen leaders with
> > : integrity where they chose thieves; or leaders with as much common
> sense as
> > : integrity where they chose idiots.... " There are more than 40 more
> > : apartheid regimes to be removed from this continent, so now's not
> the time
> >
> > So if these weren't just statements to butress your points, I'd like
> to
> > tell you that Africans don't *choose* idiots and thieves to be their
> > Leaders. Dictation is not leadership. One person Organizing to
> threaten
> > and kill every other eligible candidate, or rigging all the boxes to
> stay
> > in power forever isn't equivalent to his being chosen by his people
> into
> > power. I don't ask for a retraction; just think of these things
> before you
> > go saying inaccurate things about Africa.
>
Norman
stefan <li...@last.net> wrote in message
news:live-D8CF33.10094912022000@news...
> This is, among other things, why many Africans get degrees in African
> politics/economy/history etc. at American/European universities by
> largely non-African faculty members.
Sounds to me like you are trying to justify the old adage "The blind leading
the blind" or is it "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" 8-)
Do I see you have come out of the desert & returned to more civilised parts
Stefan?
Norman
Mary
Norman <eg...@connect.ab.ca> Scribbled:
: stefan <li...@last.net> wrote in message
:> This is, among other things, why many Africans get degrees in African
:> politics/economy/history etc. at American/European universities by
:> largely non-African faculty members.
: Sounds to me like you are trying to justify the old adage "The blind leading
: the blind" or is it "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" 8-)
: Do I see you have come out of the desert & returned to more civilised parts
: Stefan?
Norman, are you, in effect trying to say that it's not possible for
someone not from Africa to know things about Africa? I personally don't
know as much as the rest of Africa as I know about Nigeria, but there are
(non-African) people who dedicate their lives to learning these things,
and I don't see what's so wrong with these people passing on their
acquired knowledge.
I'm taking (one of the easiest :) French Culture classes in school, and we
do have many American Professors with Doctorates in the French
Language and Culture. Even though I'd prefer a Native French teacher, this
doesn't mean that the Americans are dunces, or not as Educated as the
French ones.
--
blah
Ron McGregor
>but there are
> (non-African) people who dedicate their lives to learning these things,
> and I don't see what's so wrong with these people passing on their
> acquired knowledge.
I must support Stefan on this.
1 Just being in a place doesn't mean that one is learning about it.
There are a great many Africans who don't really know much about Africa at
all. They just think they do, because they happen to live there. In truth,
they only live in a very small part of it, and probably also only interact
with a very limited part of the population. They probably have very little
understanding about how their own little lives fit into the broader life of
the Continent.
2 It follows that if one wants to know, one must make an ACTIVE effort to
learn. The passivity of just being there is not enough.
3 It is probably best if one can go to Africa and carry out one's studies
"in situ". However, it is better to study under an American professor in
America, than to live in Africa and not study at all.
4 There is, of course, the risk that the American professor may have
faulty knowledge, which he is passing on to his students. However, the wide
variety of research available should enable any student with a bit of
initiative to pick up contradictions that call for cross-checking.
Anyway, it is not only the foreign professor who may make a mistake. An
African professor may just as easily make the same mistakes (or worse) in
Africa. Indeed, I think one of the advantages of having other people
studying your country is that it isn't THEIR country, so they can take quite
a distant and objective view of things. Those of us who live here will
always have agendas, even subconsciously.
I don't always agree with Stefan's views, but I have to admit a profound
respect for his knowledge about Africa, which exceeds by far the knowledge
of most of the people who live here.
On the other hand, he is working towards a Master's, so it bloody well ought
to!!!
Norman
Ron McGregor <ron...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
news:38a82...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> I don't always agree with Stefan's views, but I have to admit a profound
> respect for his knowledge about Africa, which exceeds by far the knowledge
> of most of the people who live here.
I concur wholeheartedly Ron. I just disagree with (object to) his dismissal
of the feelings & experiences of those who have "walked the talk" as
incorrect based on book learning & a 2 week visit after 1994. Intellectual
snobbery is what got South Africa into apartheid.
Norman.
Norman
> While posting to soc.culture.african.american,
> Norman <eg...@connect.ab.ca> Scribbled:
>
> : stefan <li...@last.net> wrote in message
> :> This is, among other things, why many Africans get degrees in African
> :> politics/economy/history etc. at American/European universities by
> :> largely non-African faculty members.
>
> : Sounds to me like you are trying to justify the old adage "The blind
leading
> : the blind" or is it "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king"
8-)
> : Do I see you have come out of the desert & returned to more civilised
parts
> : Stefan?
>
> Norman, are you, in effect trying to say that it's not possible for
> someone not from Africa to know things about Africa? I personally don't
> (non-African) people who dedicate their lives to learning these things,
> and I don't see what's so wrong with these people passing on their
> acquired knowledge.
Neither do I Mary. I just object to Stefan's arrogant attitude that because
he is studying towards a masters degree anyone with a lesser educational
qualification or an oppossing view to his must therefore ipso facto be
wrong, stupid & an ignoramus.
Norman
Norman
> In article <38a84...@skylite.connect.ab.ca>, "Norman"
> <eg...@connect.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Neither do I Mary. I just object to Stefan's arrogant attitude that
> > because
> > he is studying towards a masters degree
>
Sorry Stefan. I picked the masters up from Ron's post.
>
> > anyone with a lesser educational
> > qualification or an oppossing view to his must therefore ipso facto be
> > wrong, stupid & an ignoramus.
>
> And this part is an erroneous presumption on your part...
Is that so? I suggest you research your posts to myself & to Mark to name
but two people who because we don't always agree with you have been
subjected to your intellectual denigration.
> I meet many people with less formal educational qualifications than I
have > that have
> an equal or better insight into the matters that interest me for various
> reasons.
Happens all the time to everyone its a fact of life.
> However, I am finished with excusing blatant historical
> ignorance prefaced by the regular "I am South African and I have to live
> with these goddamned kaffirs" sentiments in this ng.
I think it was in one of Ron's posts that the issue of generalising national
characteristics was raised. It's also a hard fact of life that not all of
these, & I quote you, "goddamned kaffirs" are as perfect as you would like
to make out. I think that those on the street who have to live the talk are
more likely to have a less rosey view than people reading about the "noble
savage". Always did reckon that it was easier for Helen Suzman to be a
liberal in Houghton than Piet Pompies in Langelaaagte
> As you have
> noticed the level of in this case white ignorance and horrific racism is
> escalating in this newsgroup.
Like the poor, extremists will always be with us & if you insist on always
being right then you must expect exaggeration from some to get a point
across.
BTW I suspect your tailpiece of radio free New Orleans gave the impression
that you had moved from Arizona to Louisiana.
Norman
Norman
> I am not clear as to what you're trying to say Norman. Is this just
> more of your simplistic attacks on those who know more than you, and
> actively try to learn, because their contributions challenge your
> comfortable world view?
If my posts are so simplistic I'm surprised you have trouble understanding
my meaning. As regards you knowing more than me, in which field other than
politically correct political science do you arrogantly suppose you are my
superior?
BTW I received one of those bulk mail shots this morning. It may explain why
degrees from US universities are viewed with such suspicion around the
world?
UNIVERSITY DIPLOMAS
Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power,
and the admiration of all.
Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited
universities based on your present knowledge
and life experience.
No required tests, classes, books, or interviews.
Bachelors, masters, MBA, and doctorate (PhD)
diplomas available in the field of your choice.
No one is turned down.
Confidentiality assured.
CALL NOW to receive your diploma
within days!!!
Call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, including
Sundays and holidays.
Samuel Mbeka
stefan <li...@last.net> wrote
> Yes. I quite frankly do not see why anyone would bring these things up
> or take them seriously. The only one who would has really no idea how a
> job market that requires formal education works. I would be afraid to
> meet a person who would actually spend money on such a "diploma" :)
Any time you want a mail-order sheepskin, look no further:
Norman
stefan IN AN OBTUSE MOOD<li...@last.net> wrote in message
news:live-FA08D8.00475618022000@news...
> In article <38a8f...@skylite.connect.ab.ca>, "Norman"> > news:live-C8CAB3.22465214022000@news...
>
> > Is that so? I suggest you research your posts to myself & to Mark to
name
> > but two people who because we don't always agree with you have been
> > subjected to your intellectual denigration.
>
> inference or fact is not tantamount to "intellectual denigration."
QED. Stefan says it therefore it must be correct & anyone else incorrect.
>
> > I think that those on the street who have to live the talk
> > are
> > more likely to have a less rosey view than people reading about the
> > "noble
> > savage".
>
> I don't know any "noble savages" in SA.
Like I said "Stefan in an obtuse mood.
>
> > BTW I suspect your tailpiece of radio free New Orleans gave the
> > impression
> > that you had moved from Arizona to Louisiana.
>
> No. We moved from Louisiana to Arizona.
I know Stefan, just that you have added the New Orleans radio thing & I
wondered if you had moved back. See easy if you just read & don't try & find
nonexistant hidden meanings.
Norman
Norman
> Yes. I quite frankly do not see why anyone would bring these things up
> or take them seriously. The only one who would has really no idea how a
> job market that requires formal education works. I would be afraid to
> meet a person who would actually spend money on such a "diploma" :)
I actually have Stefan. He didn't think it made him any more educated but as
he said, There are a lot of people out there who are fooled by it". He used
it to gain an appointment which called for a degree in the advert & went on
to great things using his natural talents.
Norman