The Chetnik movement (very very very short overview...)
Nik...@plains.nodak.edu
this is a reply for HJH two articles posted on SCY and has a
reference to only ONE of his articles, though I THINK it answers
BOTH of them.
Also, there is no discussion of what is the position of the
today Chetnik movement nor it has any references to today's SRS (MP
Sheshelj's party), except a few personal notes about how the author
feels about SRS party and Sheshelj.
regards,
Nikola Malenovic
male...@plains.nodak.edu
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In article <1992Jun26....@athena.mit.edu> hjhr...@athena.mit.edu (Hrvoje J Hrgovcic) writes:
>By neo-Chetniks I specifically refer to Seselj's
>men, who are not offended by the name (and don't
>bother with the prefix).
Many Serbs are not offended by the name 'Chetnik' though I am
offended if you even TRY to identify ME with Dr.Sheshelj. I have
repeatedly denounced his deeds and publicly wrote that he *IS* a
fascist - not a Chetnik.
>I myself added the "neo"
>precisely to satisfy those Serbs (specifically
>you, for one) who against all the evidence
^^^
>continue believing that what Seselj's men are
>doing in Bosnia and Croatia
This is such a slander. I do not like Sheshelj, nor his party.
your 5-years old malicious imagination may be redirected to some
other place - leave me out of your dirty dreams.
>now is markedly
>different from what their Chetnik (capitalized and
>uncapitalized `c') predecessors were doing there
>fifty years ago.
Ah, Mr. Hrgovcic, you completely revealed your communist
education on this matter. I would like to 'remind' you what happened
during WWII in NDH (yes, B&H was 'annexed' by NDH).
'Chetniks' or 'chetniks'(using your writting, though we both
know it is 'The Chetniks') in NDH during the period 1941-1943 were
not The Chetniks. One of the origin of the The Chetniks can be found
in the paragraph :
"During Serbia's struggle for independence against Turks in the nineteenth
century the Chetniks were small guerrilla detachments which fought in the
enemy's rear and represent the whole tradition of grass-roots resistance to
foreign domination."
After April's 1941 defeat, The Chetniks were "officially"
headed by the Kosta Pechanac - who was of a collaborationalist line.
"Officially" means that there were quite a few detachments (i.e.
'illegal bands') and each detachment had its own leader.
Draza Mihajlovic was the most important figure - the one
who organized remaints of the YU Army. Mihajlovic specially asked
Pechanac to join him and subordinate himself to Ravna Gora movement
and become a leader for the South Serbia where he would prevent
Germans from sending the re-inforcement troops when 'the time
comes'. Mihajlovic opposed IMMEDIATE action against the enemy
because "the time... is not yet ripe" - he was afraid that it would
lead to bloody reprisal against Serbian population. THIS WAS EXACTLY
what ultra-violent wing - Communists - used in order to attract
people in their lines. The strategy was to attack the enemy - and
they did not attack well defended German troops but the local police
force (gandarms) and this has led Germans to bloody reprisals which
helped Communist to gain a lot of young recruits who were hungry for
blood. In the time of war, the most violent party would get the most
members. Mihajlovic knew this and he immediately tried to make a
deal with Communist (Partisans) where they would share the 'plen'
(the stuff you gain when you take the city over).
"The Communists leaders probably recognized that the Chetniks had a good
deal of support among the peasants and Serb politicians and that some active
cooperation from the officers would be necessary to train and command the
Partisan detachments, at least in the first part of the war"
Also about Mihajlovic, it was said :
"Before the end of the year (1941), Mihajlovic, although rapidly emerging as
the leading Chetnik officer, found himself parleying with a number of other
leaders of non-Communist armed detachments who favored everything from open
collaboration with the occupation order against the Communists to immediate
general uprising in league with Partisans."
You do understand that 'Chetnik' is a 'generic' name for the
non-Communist Serb-led armed detachments.
"...was that many of the rebel leaders gradually became local spokesmen and
the intermediaries for the Serb community. this of course, tended to enhance
their importance, and, as the web of arrangements and ties between the
Italians and the Serb representatives on the local level became more varied
and complex, each group became more nearly autonomous and less capable of
cooperating with others."
This clearly clears the hands of Draza Mihajlovic from the
acts of the 'Chetniks' in Herzegovina and Bosnia. It was only at
late 1943 that D.Mihajlovic ATTEMPTED TO subordinate several
prominent 'Chetnik' Leaders in Bosnia. So we learned that 'Chetniks'
in Bosnia were actually local bands formed as 'cheta' (translation:
defensive units) and were acting mainly according to the local
settings. The fact was that non-Communist bands in Bosnia were
cooperating with Italians, but on this we can find :
"Despite the successful arrangements made by the rebel spokesman with the
Italians in parts of Herzegovina and western Bosnia, the majority of Serbs
still lived in constant fear of Ustashi terror and probably remained in the
hills or even swung over to the intransigent, mainly Partisan, camp. Serb
leaders who offered an occasion to place their units at the disposal of the
Second Army for joint anti-Partisan operations, or even, as in the case of
the Bos Grahovo Serbs, to attach special formations to the Italian army to
fight in the Soviet Union were probably attempting to come to advantageous
terms with the Italians without disarming themselves."
Also, I should note here that Italian policies were mostly
pro-Serbian, because Italy wanted to increase it sphere of influence
on the expense of Zagreb (NDH), and the Ustashi solution of 'The
Serb problem' was the perfect excuse for Italians - they would claim
they are protecting Serbian population from the slaughtering and
would gain more influence among Serbian leaders in Bosnia who were
outraged with the Ustashi policies.
To return to your slanderously excerpt about Draza Mihajlovic
and his famous 'list' as a long-range goals of the Chetniks
organization. Listen to this :
"At this point, Mihajlovic probably had little if ANY control over MANY of
the Serb armed formations and was in NO position to turn suddenly against
the Axis."
Also Mihajlovic was never 'co-operating' with Nedic (as you
suggested - or someone else, for it does not matter WHO suggested
this) - the following quote reveals what happened :
"Titoist historians attempt to add credibility to the Partisan' fear of
dealing between Mihajlovic and Nedic by pointing out that in early September
a Chetnik officer and a Nedic gandarme were captured near Belanovica
carrying a plan for coordinate Chetnik-gandarme operations against the
Partisans hidden inside a spare auto tire... Although there is little doubt
that Mihajlovic's agents were in contact with Nedic, there is no proof that
ANY concrete arrangement were made. Chetnik sources, obviously, deny the
whole thing. Pantelic, for example writes that on 5 September he met Reserve
Major Alexander Misic, who, having just conferred with Nedic at Belgrade,
attacked the minister-president violently. More-over, if Nedic made ANY
sort of an arrangement with Mihajlovic in September, he certainly did not so
inform the Germans."
Also Mihajlovic had his own spy network infiltrated among
Nedic's puppet gov'. This network was SWATed (i.e. destroyed) by the
Germans who by the end of 1942 successfully deciphered the Chetnik
radio transmission. That was the time when Germans overestimated
The Chetnik's movement and even thought that The Chetniks were
bigger danger than Partisans formations, and made quite an effort to
neutralize the Chetnik movement in Serbia (in which they did
succeed).
Now the paragraph PRECEDING YOUR QUOTE about long range
program of the Chetnik organization was :
"Until the middle of 1942, Mihajlovic was a general without a fighting
organization in Serbia and still lacked control over developments in the
rest of Yugoslavia. Nonetheless, the Chetnik staff thought they could rebuild
the movement by co-opting the collaborationist formations and, with Allied
recognition and support, were certain of Germany's ultimate defeat and the
reconstruction of Yugoslavia along Serb nationalist lines. The postwar goals
of the Chetniks, as Mihajlovic saw them in December 1941, bore no relation
to what the weak officers' movement could hope to accomplish in the future
and went far beyond a restoration of the political status quo ante bellum.
In his orders to Lasic and DJurisic, he outlined an ambitious set of aims
which combined his expected anti-COmmunist and pro-monarchic orientation
with plans for territorial adjustments and domestic reconstruction inspired
by both Greater Yugoslav and the most extreme sort of the greater Serb
passions. Reminding the Montenegrians that he was relying for the final
victory on the aid of 'the great democracies, England, America, Russia and
China,' he established as the Chetnik long-range program:
[list follows]...
Now the paragraph *PROCEEDING* YOUR QUOTE about long range
program of the Chetnik organization was :
"Mihajlovic and his staff assumed that the Axis Powers would lose the war,
but, before that happened, the officers had to eliminate or at least reduce
drastically the influence of the Partisan resistance and take all measures
necessary to protect Serbs, especially those in Independent Croatia, from
the ravages of Axis and Ustashi reprisals. Collaboration with the Italians
served both of these ends, yet there was always the danger that the Serb
nationalist formation [* what HJH calls 'chetniks' or 'Chetniks' in his
posting - remark by NVM *] would gradually be reduced to the level of police
formations attached to the occupation forces, that the tactic of
collaboration would lead to a weakening of the Chetnik political position in
London, or even that the Italians would soon drop out of the war, thus
isolating the Chetniks. In any event, Mihajlovic's long-range program, not
to mention the events in Serbia of 1941, placed an immediate priority on a
Partisan defeat; moreover, the spontaneously formed and often civil-led Serb
nationalist bands in western Yugoslavia, and even those Chetniks who were
enthusiastic about resisting the Ustashi often had to cooperate, at least
formally with the occupation powers' anti-Partisan measures. [* later remarks
are that this was due to general Mihajlovic and Chetniks policies along
anti-Communist lines - remark by NVM *]"
I should add that General Dragoljub Draza Mihajlovic was given
a highest honor one foreigner can get given by pres.Truman of US.
IF ALL OF THIS can not pursue you that The Chetniks were not a
shame of Serbian people, I really do not know WHAT WILL. All I can
do is leave you in your dreams, really....
>Having modified the name, I also feel justified in
>applying ``neo-Chetnik'' to other Serbian militant
>groups, e.g., Arkaniacs, but if the prefix or the
>capitalized letter bothers you, feel free to
>ignore it.)
What bothers me is that you are making the SAME mistake as
Communist regime did in Yugoslavia (revisionist like Tito, Tudjman
etc.) who call those troops, in B&H that are headed by the local
political figures, with name 'Chetniks' when they, as those
'Chetniks' in B&H in WWII were not under the command of The
Chetniks. And also using communist stereotypes and asserting that
Serbian people should be ashamed of The Chetniks.
I think I made a point of the mistakes that Croats are trying
to impose for the second time in 50+ years.
>Hrvoje H.
Nik
--
Radivoje Zonjic
I'm glad my neighbour has posted some facts about The Chetniks
Movement during the WWII.
It is very important to distinguish the noble Chetnik name from the
term Croatian propaganda uses for members of some mil. factions who
even do not call themselves Chetniks. Simply, Croatian ideologists,
think (and their executors DO) that by discrediting the first anti-
nazi movement in the Balkans (Chetniks - organized by Serbs), and by
exaggerating the number of Croats in the largest anti-nazi movement
in the Balkans (again Serbs, now Partizans movement) will change the
fact that Croatian Ustashi (nazis) had enjoyed strong support of the
Croatian people, and that whole current Croatian regime and policy
have been directed (by moneys) by the Ustashi emigration - Croats who
had left Yugoslavia after WWII with only one goal - to tear it apart.
CP6uH
>It is very important to distinguish the noble Chetnik name from the
>term Croatian propaganda uses for members of some mil. factions who
>even do not call themselves Chetniks. Simply, Croatian ideologists,
Actually you forgot that they use a few more terms, beside the term
'Chetnik'. Last time I was reading HINA, it was
'Serbian-barbarian-chetniks-fascist-throat-slitters-(kucke agresorske ;)' or
something along those lines.... I suppose other HINA readers have the fine
details ready at their hands....
Hrvoje J Hrgovcic
>Hello,
>
> this is a reply for HJH two articles posted on SCY and has a
> reference to only ONE of his articles, though I THINK it answers
> BOTH of them.
Endless stream of jumbled references and non sequitirs follows....
.......
>
> What bothers me is that you are....
> using communist stereotypes and asserting that
> Serbian people should be ashamed of The Chetniks.
>
> I think I made a point of the mistakes that Croats are trying
> to impose for the second time in 50+ years.
>
What was this hemorrhage of text supposed to
prove? We've been through the ``official''
versions of chetniks several times, with
little to show for it. Mihailovich continues
to be---in the lingo of most historians of
the period---a Chetnik.
When answering my posts, I think you should
not get off on a tangent about on subjects I
never even raised---i.e., the Royalists'
record on dealing with Nedic and Hitler.
I will say that your efforts to absolve him
of Nazi-collaboration by saying it was all
carried out through subordinates, or that
nothing ``official'' came of it sounds a
little like the ridiculous claims that Hitler
was not directly involved in the Final
Solution because he allegedly gave it no
official written endorsement. Mihailovich
deserves a better champion on this matter.
Your line about ``good'' Chetnik and ``bad''
Chetnik is equally unconvincing. Granted,
some were much worse than others, but the
program to bring about an ethnically pure
state came from Mihailovich himself, and the
actions of his men in the field showed that
he was more than willing to carry out the
program.
I therefore find it utterly hypocritical for
people to concoct ridiculous rumours about
Croats seeking to form an ethnically pure
state (with Bosnian Moslems no less) while
showing unmitigated reverence for a WWII
figure who was unabashedly pursuing that very
same objective.
Hrvoje H.
>
>
>Nik
>--
CP6uH
>What was this hemorrhage of text supposed to
>prove? We've been through the ``official''
>versions of chetniks several times, with
>little to show for it. Mihailovich continues
>to be---in the lingo of most historians of
>the period---a Chetnik.
Dragoljub Draza Mihajlovic many times emerged as a Chetnik movement
leader. though I tried to point out that he did not have control
over many stereotyped-SFRJ-WWII-movies-Chetniks, to which you tend
to believe. I offered argumented and substantiated proof that DDM
was not guilty of any crimes and the Chetnik movement was not what
you tried to present here.
>I will say that your efforts to absolve him
>of Nazi-collaboration by saying it was all
>carried out through subordinates, or that
>nothing ``official'' came of it sounds a
>little like the ridiculous claims that Hitler
>was not directly involved in the Final
>Solution because he allegedly gave it no
>official written endorsement. Mihailovich
>deserves a better champion on this matter.
I beg to differ and I'd like to point out that DDM NEVER, I repeat
NEVER collaborated with the Germans. I can provide you with the
reliable quotes where it was claimed that all of the Chetnik
movement detachments that co-ordinated with the Germans were acting
either on their own or without Mihajlovic knowing about it. DMM
NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER collaborated with Germans - whereas your hero
Marshal Josip Broz Tito offered and armistice to the Germans in 1943
(of course in order to eliminate the Chetnik movement and armed
Serb-led bands in the Herzogvina and parts of Bosnia)
DDM 'collaborated' with Italians, because their policies were
strongly pro-Serbian. I offered the persepctive on this matter as
well.
>Your line about ``good'' Chetnik and ``bad''
>Chetnik is equally unconvincing.
No my line was about the Chetnik movement and who was who (i.e. short
history) where I tried to show that there were so many detachments
that were called 'Chetniks' that it is impossible to even claim they
did A THING - every detachment - more or less acted according to the
local patterns. there were Chetnik leaders who were civilians,
Chetnik leaders who were officers in Kraljevina Jugoslavija, and
there were leaders who favored the open collaboration and leaders
who were pro-partisan (many of the troops who fought in B&H during
1943 either deflected into the lines of the Partisan movement or
went along collaboration lines for example).
> Granted,
>some were much worse than others, but the
>program to bring about an ethnically pure
>state came from Mihailovich himself, and the
>actions of his men in the field showed that
>he was more than willing to carry out the
>program.
Mihajlovic never claimed that ethnicly pure state was his main goal,
though it is obvious that under the pressure in 1943 he drafted the
alleged proposal as the long-range goals. Mihajlovic's men were many
times in the great opposition with him. even his own staff
contradicted him. it was of course in the late 1943 that this
happened - when the Chetnik movement was almost destoryed (but the
few units and leaders). Your objection of his nationalistic comments
is so ridiculous that I can't but laugh. All in all I see Mihajlovic
and the Chetnik movement the only movement who was looking for the
good of Serbian people and was willing to do something for them.
>I therefore find it utterly hypocritical for
>people to concoct ridiculous rumours about
>Croats seeking to form an ethnically pure
>state (with Bosnian Moslems no less)
hah. how come we are bringing the present into the talks of the past?
coincidence? I think not. you are trying to show that every serb is
bad because he wants for the sins of your parents you to be
punished? this time YOU brought the content of the present into the
discussion that had to do ONLY with the history. I think this
explicitly shows that you are completely under the impression that
damn Serbs are bringing the past to punish you today, which is
ridiculous because there are enough evidence of today for you to get
punished even without bringing up the past.... but then again I may
be called upon for 'threatening you', for which I do not. I merely
am trying to establish the fact that your imagination is playing the
significant role in your writting on SCY.
> while
>showing unmitigated reverence for a WWII
>figure who was unabashedly pursuing that very
>same objective.
HA! This is your OPINION and the 'FACT' brought up by the post war
staged-trial - Dragoljub Draza Mihajlovic would never been sentenced
for nothing more then stealing weapons in ANY other country in the
world. But Titoist historian (and you now join their rank as well)
simply re-wrote the history and gave us those bad movies where Tihi
and Prle (Slavko, Mirko etc...) are taking the whole band of the
bearded barbarians who raped women, slaughtered man..... (finish
with your favorite way of making your kid hate someone). You are THE
evidence of their successful propaganda.
>Hrvoje H.