The Serbian character
Damir Matanic
British premier Winston Churchill stated at Yalta:
"To achieve peace and peacefulness in Europe, it is not only
necessary to destroy German imperialism, rather it is also
necessary to destroy the imperialist chauvinism of a
little Serbia."
Sigmund Neumann wrote:
"The History of Serbia is a neverending fight overfilled
with uncontrolled aggression, unknown in civilized countries.
In this battle where lying, trickery, betrayal, revenge,
murder, and war crimes were recognized as moral
achievements, generations of Serbians and
Chetniks (bandits of General Draza Mihailovic)
grew up: one can clearly see the political banditism
which characterize Serbian rulers, politicians
and military leaders...."
Greek writer, Nikita Akonimat, who spent alot of time studying
Serbians wrote:
"Serbians were always willing to commit all kinds
of crimes so that they can stay in power,
and as chauvinists, there is no
such nation in the world."
A female British author, who traveled and studied the Balkan
peoples, wrote:
"Serbians are most primitive people who are at the same
time the most megalomaniacs and the most
chauvinistic...Many times have
their extremism bordered with
paranoia."
Romanian Historian Conrad Bercovici wrote:
"They (Serbians) are nationalists, extreme megalomaniacs without
a conscience. They are the most chauvinistic people in Europe,
if not the whole world. It is impossible to argue
with Serbians, because they are without understanding.
Since they respect only force,
the same method should be used
when dealing with them."
On August 3 1914, the British newspaper "Manchester Guardian"
wrote:
"If you took Serbia to the end of the ocean and flooded
it, then the European air would be clean."
Gathorn-Hardy, a historian wrote:
"If the war with Serbia was able to be localized we can
be sure that the majority in Great Britain would
sympathize with the ones that would want to punish
hordes of the nationalized bandits."
A Greek scientist, George Megas, who spent many years
studying the morals, souls, and ethics of the
Serbians, deduced:
"A Serbian fighter does not know anything about
heroism. He likes brutal and wild actions, ie.,
taking out of eyes, dismemberment of body parts
of enemies without motive and clearly when
that one is not armed..."
The writer Friedrich Kraus, when studying the characteristics
of Serbia, wrote:
"A Serbian chetnik is ready to rob a political ally or
somebody else for that matter and before
he kills that person, he
will take out his eyes, cut off his nose and tongue.
If he does not do any of these things he
will eat that man as if he was a lamb."
The writer C. Robert, a Frenchman, wrote in one of his
works:
"When Serbian chetniks rose us and revolted, they only had one
thing in mind; get rich in any way possible. What
the chetniks did when they entered Belgrade
was not worthy of civilized people. At first
they robbed, and confiscated, then raped women that they met
on the streets, afterwards killing many of them. Those
people that did not want to convert to the Serbian
Orthodox religion were tortured by unbelievable
methods while they were cutting up their
children in pieces...."
Cvijic, "O nacionalnom radu", commemorative speach 1907
reprinted in Govon i Clanci, 1, Beograd 1921, p51-76)
"The world must know and realize that Serbia can operate
with a much larger entity that the territory it now
holds. The greatest possible territorial
transformations may take place with Serbia. And we
must not flinch from this fear pouring into the world
if it is useful to our national interests"
*** some material previously compiled by M. Linski ***
--
e-mail: da...@genesis.mcs.com (or) akcs....@vpnet.chi.il.us
******************************************************
* ! Zivjela Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska ! *
******************************************************
Damir Matanic
>In article <27r23e$p...@genesis.MCS.COM>, da...@genesis.MCS.COM (Damir
>Matanic) wrote:
>(quotations deleted)
>> e-mail: da...@genesis.mcs.com (or) akcs....@vpnet.chi.il.us
>> ******************************************************
>> * ! Zivjela Nezavisna Drzava Hrvatska ! *
>> ******************************************************
>
>like Serbians. It does not, however, define anything about the Serbian
>character, assuming that such a thing exists distinctly.
>
>The very use of terms like "Serbian character" or "Croatian character" is
>an exercise in intellectual laziness. It allows the reader to judge
>individuals as members of a class about which we already have an opinion.
>It is designed to stop analysis by substituting pre-existing feelings.
>
>And what, really, is the purpose behind educated computer users taking
>advantage of the net not for discussion or argument but for the spread of
>simple bigotry? What constructive end is accomplished by fanning the
>flames of hatred?
>(And here let me emphasise that I refer not simply to Mr. Matanic, but to
>bigots on all sides.)
>
>It will not kill the champions of hatred to cease pretending that the net
>is the same thing as the war.
>
>Sincerely,
>Clark Iverson
>
>
>And, to others, bringing the _Boston Evening Transcript_ ...
> - T.S. Eliot
Hey Clark, get a life.
Damir Matanic
>In article <27t8n7$j...@genesis.MCS.COM>, da...@genesis.MCS.COM (Damir
>Matanic) wrote:
>>
>> Hey Clark, get a life.
>>
>
>When you're old enough, I'll tell you about how in order to succeed
>fascists require people of good will to ignore them.
>
>Sincerely,
>Clark Iverson
>
>
>And, to others, bringing the _Boston Evening Transcript_ ...
> - T.S. Eliot
Actually, I"m waiting for you to grow up little boy. What do you know
about the current situation? Obviously not much. What do you know
about the 1st yugoslavia, ie kingdom of Slovenians, Serbs, and CRoats?
Do you have any idea why Pavelic sided with Hitler? I think not.
So, shut up and take your stupid critisims else where.
Milan Stojanovic
>Do you have any idea why Pavelic sided with Hitler? I think not.
>
Damir, believe it or not, siding with Hitler is
for most people not an issue here. The majority of Serbs
and I think most Jews ( though not Ethiopians ),
respect highly Italian role in WWII. That Croats sided
with Germans is by itself understandable. They
wanted state, Germans offered them one. What
was an issue is how did they organise their state,
how did they define their nationhood and how did they
behave during the war ( ask someone from Ukraina about
rather long list of burned villages there ).
Milan N. Stojanovic
Damir Matanic
How they behaved? HA! How were we treated in the years following the
first world war? Serbian secret police were located throught Croatia and
Bosna-Hercegovina. We were being killed and mascred through out Croatia
and Bosna-Hercegovnia. Croats who were anti-yugo kingdom where being
assassinated through out Europe. Serbia what trying to destroy the
Croatian nation as a separate and distict ethnic group. Serbs had total
power in Croatia and B-h. Are you going to denie that? Croats were
being killed left and right, and for what reason? Just because they were
Croats. We didn't want to become part of "Greater Serbia", which made
us a BIG problem for Belgrade. Come WW II, we see chetniks slaughtering
Croat and Muslim (at that time Muslims were pro-croatia; actually, they
sided with us through out history, and that's one reason why Serbs want
to exterminate them. They supported NDH, and many were in the Ustasi. Yes
my dear Muslims, don't even try to cover up that fact. You were VERY
pro-Pavelic, and pro-Ustasi. Ante even grew up among you in Bosna) villages.
What did Ante do? He started deporting, and killing chetniks, and as in
every war, civilians paid a price. Serbians should never attempted to
subdue the Croats. You should never have attempted to create a "greater Serbia"
through the so-called "Yugoslavia". You should never have attempted to
destroy the Croatian nation. Unfortunetly for us, and for you, Serbia
in fact tryed to accomplish the impossible. So, the Croats retaliate. They
fought back using all means to protect NDH, and so be it. Let's not
forget that at first Hitler wanted to preserve Yugoslavia as a singe state. He
was never very pro-Croatian, and neither was Italy. Hell, Italy was anti-Croatian statehood. The Ustasi in NDH often had to steal arms from the German forces
in order to fight the communist parisans, and serbian fascist chetniks. As
my previous posts have shown, the chetniks did in fact collaborate with the
nazies, and the Germans were more then willing to work with them. The
leader of war time Serbia was a pro-Hitler, pro-fascist Serb by the name
of NEDIC.
If you play with fire, you'll get burned. Serbs got burned in WW II.
Moral of the story: Serbs, don't play with fire.
In ww2 Muslims were being killed like rats by chetniks. The only thing
that was saving their hides was the fact that they were on Ante's side. If
it wasn't for the little protection they received from the Ustashi, there
wouldn't be any Muslims. Just look what happened in Bosna today. The
Serbs succeed in what they failed in WW 2. If the Muslims were realy
Pro-Croatian, together we'd be at the river Drina by now. They destroyed
themselves, and hurt our position as well. Now they've turned their
guns against their only friend in the Balkans, the Croats. Nice going
guys. Instead of having one enemy, now you have 2. If you had
any intelligence what so ever, you would have hung Alija Izabegovic by
now. Because of his stupidity, you've lost Bosna, and now you're fighting
and killing Croatian civilians and soldiers. You're not going to gain
anything from that.
I"ve said enough
damir
Davorin Dujmovic
But don't get too much exhausted couse we need you for liberation of
Novi Pazar.
I'll help you a little bit. Give some leg-work to draw attention and then
try with a right hand in the kidneys.
Davorin Dujmovic
>>
What Italians, Major? You are talking about Mussolini and fascists?
There were many antifascists among Italians. BTW there were some other
nations that suffered from Italian fascism, as Slovenes, Croats, Albanians
, and Italians themselves, but I do understand that as they are your
"enemies", they deserved that, right.
What Croats sided with Germans? Ustashas, right? Or just all, I know
that you would like that you can identify them all with Matanic.
That is the only reason why you are so nice to Matanic. He is probably
the one stupid enough for your nonsense to play with.
Balkans is realy good place when you are taking charge on Dubrovnik
while Matanic is liberating Novi Pazar.
You, Vitaca and Matanic are using the same bottle. It is just sad that
your exercise in stupidity does not cost you anything while some
ordinary people somewhere else are paying with their lives.
Go in your karaula, study some poetry and find some girl, it can make
you get rid of the bottles.
What is that 'N' for, Nonsense?
michael a sells
Matanic) wrote:
> In article <281s35$r...@scunix2.harvard.edu> stoj...@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
> >In article <281eva$k...@genesis.MCS.COM> da...@genesis.MCS.COM (Damir Matanic) writes:
> >
> >>Do you have any idea why Pavelic sided with Hitler? I think not.
> >
> >>
> >
> > Damir, believe it or not, siding with Hitler is
> > for most people not an issue here. The majority of Serbs
> > and I think most Jews ( though not Ethiopians ),
> > respect highly Italian role in WWII. That Croats sided
> > with Germans is by itself understandable. They
> > wanted state, Germans offered them one. What
> > was an issue is how did they organise their state,
> > how did they define their nationhood and how did they
> > behave during the war ( ask someone from Ukraina about
> > rather long list of burned villages there ).
> >
> > Milan N. Stojanovic
Milan, everything you say in the quote above is correct and lucid. The
exact distinctions you make above have been at the heart of the argument
netween you (and other Karadzic supporters) and myself for several months.
You Karadzic-supporters focus on the validity of the Serb revolt and the
causes of the war; I focus upon the way the war was carried out, the way
the Bosnian Serb state has defined itself and conducted itself. Now that
you can make the distinctions you have just made above, on WW2 Croatia, try
out the exact same distinctions in Bosnia. The wording, according to Milan
S. principles used on WW2 Croatia, would be as follows:
"Milan, believe it or not, the Bosnian Serb fight for autonomy is not at
issue here. That Bosnian Serbs would not agree to an independent Bosnia in
which they were a minority is understandable. That they wanted autonomy
and closer relations with Serbia is understandable. What is at issue is
how did they organize their state, how did they define their nationhood and
how did they behave during the war (ask someone from Bosnia about rather
long list of burned villages there, daily massacres, death camps, rape
camps, and deliberate shelling of civilians, the premeditated destruction
of mosques throughout the Bosnian Serb Republic, etc)."
Will you recognize how your logic, if valid, applies perfectly with the
Karadzic state? Whether or not you are willing to recognize it, this
logic, which is valid, will assure that Karadzic's Bosnian Serb Republic is
treated by history in the same fashion as the Ustashe Croat State of WW2 is
viewed by most people today.
Mike
Michael Svilar
Mike,
To begin with let me say that the Serbs have brought dishonor to their name in
the way that they have fought, even if 1/10 of what is written is true. Now
let's say that the world looks down upon Serbs, as they do the Ustashi state in
Croatia. So, Karadzic can go live in Portugal (a la Pavelic) and Mladic can
go live in California (a la Artukovic). Other soldiers can move to South
America. Perhaps the the Orthodox church can smuggle out others, a la the
Vatican. Boy, it seems that the world did not treat the Ustashi too badly.
Secondly, the idea that this three way civil war, no matter how vicious, does
not compare to what happened in WWII. While there were killings at the camps
run by Serbs and there were rooms set aside for torture, there were not
systematic killings that can compare to what happened at Jasenovac.
The number stated by the Muslim government of 200,000 dead or missing does not
compare to 700,000 - 1,000,000 DEAD Serbs. While Muslims and Croats have camps
now, the Serbs in WWII Croatia did not have camps.
Michael Svilar
Davorin Dujmovic
chetniks, you should be realy considered as an "impartial judge" of
the subject. Try harder.
michael a sells
Svilar) wrote:
> In article <msells-01...@s204.founders_academic.haverford.edu>,
> michael a sells <mse...@haverford.edu> wrote:
> >"Milan, believe it or not, the Bosnian Serb fight for autonomy is not at
> >issue here. That Bosnian Serbs would not agree to an independent Bosnia in
> >which they were a minority is understandable. That they wanted autonomy
> >and closer relations with Serbia is understandable. What is at issue is
> >how did they organize their state, how did they define their nationhood and
> >how did they behave during the war (ask someone from Bosnia about rather
> >long list of burned villages there, daily massacres, death camps, rape
> >camps, and deliberate shelling of civilians, the premeditated destruction
> >of mosques throughout the Bosnian Serb Republic, etc)."
> >
> >
> >Will you recognize how your logic, if valid, applies perfectly with the
> >Karadzic state? Whether or not you are willing to recognize it, this
> >logic, which is valid, will assure that Karadzic's Bosnian Serb Republic is
> >treated by history in the same fashion as the Ustashe Croat State of WW2 is
> >viewed by most people today.
> >
> >
> Mike,
>
> To begin with let me say that the Serbs have brought dishonor to their name in
> the way that they have fought, even if 1/10 of what is written is true. Now
> let's say that the world looks down upon Serbs, as they do the Ustashi state in
> Croatia. So, Karadzic can go live in Portugal (a la Pavelic) and Mladic can
> go live in California (a la Artukovic). Other soldiers can move to South
> America. Perhaps the the Orthodox church can smuggle out others, a la the
> Vatican. Boy, it seems that the world did not treat the Ustashi too badly.
I agree completely. The sordid history of Ustashe-coddling is outlined in
the book Unholy Trinity. I understand, however, that many Ustashe were
rounded up and shot by Tito so by your analogy only the bigwigs get to go
to the West. The Underlings (maksimovic, ostojic, prcac, cancar, arkan,
etc--get lined up and shot). The sheltering of Ustashe criminals was part
of a pattern of Western sheltering of Nazis and Nazi collaborators
(Mengele, Wagner, Bishop Trifa, --the list goes on and on and on. Just
last month Germany paroled from prison Kurt Franz--one of the protypical
Nazi sadists, former commandant of Treblinka where 900,000 died, a man who
liked to dash babies brains out in front of their mothers for his own
entertainment. I guess German prison officials felt poor Kurt Franz (who
lived in Germany under his OWN NAME unmolested until 1965, had "paid his
debt."
>
>
> Secondly, the idea that this three way civil war, no matter how vicious, does
> not compare to what happened in WWII. While there were killings at the camps
> run by Serbs and there were rooms set aside for torture, there were not
> systematic killings that can compare to what happened at Jasenovac.
>
> The number stated by the Muslim government of 200,000 dead or missing does not
> compare to 700,000 - 1,000,000 DEAD Serbs.
Missing or dead--count most of them dead Michael. In genocides, the
missing (with very few exceptions) never show up. Be it Argentina, or
Cambodia, or Foca.
That is 200,000 for tiny Bosnia in only 1 and 1/2 years. extrapolate that
kill ratio (percentage of population killed per day) to the much vaster
area of Ustashe operation and the 4 years the Ustashe had, and you will
arrive at the horrid fact that the Seseljian genocide is approaching or
exceeding Ustashe kill RATES. Give it four more years (and Europe is
ready to do that) and give it the geographical extent of the Ustashe--by
allowing it into Sanjak and Kosovo--(and Europe is ready to do that) and
you'll find 700,000 - 1,000,000 DEAD Muslims. Stay tuned.
Seselj is not lagging behind Pavelic for any lack of effort or genocidal
efficiency. He just hasn't yet had the time and space. He is in every way
the Serb equivalent of Pavelic. Karadzic is just his tool. So Seselj, not
Karadzic, should get to go to quaint Portugal.
Karadzic can go to Riyadh and live with Idi Amin.
Milosevic can go to Thailand to live with Pol Pot. There is always a
country more than willing to give hospitality to an architect of genocide.
> Michael Svilar
Mike
Michael Svilar
michael a sells <mse...@haverford.edu> wrote:
[Early posting deleted]
Mike, I must disagree with your willingness to count these people as dead.
This isn't even claimed by Izetbegovic. Given the number of refugees and the
chaos it is doubtfull that 200,000 are dead. I also disagree with your
characterization of this as a genocide. The definition of genocide is the
systematic killing of a whole people or nation. What is going on in B-H does
not meet this definition. If the Serbs were committed to the systematic
killing of all muslims, then why are they willing to concede land to them
in order to get a peace settlement. I write this fully recongnizing that there
have been war crimes committed. But war crimes do not make it genocide.
>
>That is 200,000 for tiny Bosnia in only 1 and 1/2 years. extrapolate that
>kill ratio (percentage of population killed per day) to the much vaster
>area of Ustashe operation and the 4 years the Ustashe had, and you will
>arrive at the horrid fact that the Seseljian genocide is approaching or
>exceeding Ustashe kill RATES. Give it four more years (and Europe is
>ready to do that) and give it the geographical extent of the Ustashe--by
>allowing it into Sanjak and Kosovo--(and Europe is ready to do that) and
>you'll find 700,000 - 1,000,000 DEAD Muslims. Stay tuned.
The majority of the Ustashi killings were done at the beginning of the war when
they still believed that the Germans would prevail. So your extrapolation
fails. Also consider that the fighting between Muslim and Serbs have wained,
while the fighting between Croat and Muslim and now Muslim vs. Muslim have
increased. Also, attributing all 200,000 dead and missing to Serbs fighting is
dishonest, knowing that for months now the fighting has been in central Bosnia
between the Muslim and Croats. Stay current.
Michael Svilar