Re : YU networks - the ultimate truth ;-)
Jure Marn
>
> u lazi su kratke noge. I do not think that this is true. it happened
>that I know just a little bit more than you do
It's a pity Ms. Tasic (to who Mr. Malenovic refers as Mirjana) did
not respond herself. She is one of the (if not the only one) system
administrators for YUBGSS21 node. Mr. Vidmar is a system administrator
for University of Ljubljana system. Both of them have been extremely
active in setting up JUPAK (which is BTW owned and operated by
Yu Postal Service, if I am not mistaken, and leased to users, so all
whining about theft is not germane to the issue).
Mr. Malenovic explained to us how does the system work NOW. Before it
was cut by somebody (I concur with Mr. Vidmar opinion whodunit) the
traffic went through Linz, Austria. Mr. Vidmar explained how the
system was supposed to work.
All started because Mr. Zonjic of Belgrade has accused University
of Maribor of stealing their Vax 8800 computer. This is not true
and I already explained the original deal.
--
Jure Marn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ma...@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ...
Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled
Nikola Malenovic
From: r...@uni-lj.ac.mail.yu
on Subject: Computer communication in YU
we had a chance to read :
>In article: 3539 EZO...@YUBGEF51.BITNET (Rade Zonjic) writes:
>
>>It is interesting that DECnet and JUPAK were the only *direct* connections
>> to BITNET for Croatian sites, but nevertheless they cut it?!
>
> BITNET line from Belgrade to Linz (Austria) is realised via Zagreb and
>Ljubljana.
Hm Mr.Vidmar,
u lazi su kratke noge. I do not think that this is true. it happened
that I know just a little bit more than you do, so I think SCY should
know the truth about this and I felt free to introduce networking
situation in YU. As you know YUBGSS21 is main BITNET node in YU.
There was mutal agreement that 'we' (YU) get BITNET and that Belgrade
be administrator for YU, and later on (after 3 years - means at the
end of this year) 'we' were supposed to get Internet, but 'we' agreed
that Slovenia can take responcibility of being YU administrator for
Interenet. Of course this fuckin' war screwed everything up. I see
that our 3rd layer (X.25 - or X.29 - which is known as YUPAC) is
working (at least used to ;-) so we had wish to build our TCP/IP
on existing YUPAC. OF course politicians do not care about scientist, so
cables were cut and we have what we have - LJubljana and Zagreb have
local TCP/IP that is working 'punom parom' and that means with/in
12 months Slovenia and Zagreb will have Internet.But Belgrade won't.
Of course in Belgrade's IBM 3090 and stupid MVS system, there is
no money and no interested people to make necessary changes for BITNET
purposes even. I talked to Mirjana, she is main coordinator on
Netwroking in Belgrade(Serbia) and she explaind to me that
they (RZS in Belgrade) do not have any money - not even money to buy
7171 - if they can, than YUBGSS21 will become accessible via the phone.
(modems for PC are async, while all IBM stuff works sync.)
(7171 is needed as interface). Access via the phone is first step
for building TCP/IP localy.
Of course IBM wants a 'small' amount of money for TCP/IP package,
so it all comes down to 'money'. This dirty war is taking everything
away, so there isn't money for such thing, but Mirjana is not loosing
the hope.
Now the remark was that Bitnet is going via Zagreb and LJubljana.
what a illussion. Bitnet for YU look like this :
AEARN
|
| (satelite link)
|
YUBGSS21
/
/
/
/
YUZGSC21 YUBGEF51
/
/
/
/
YUZGRB51 YULJJS51
All nodes beyond YUBGEF51 are on SLON (YU DECnet) and are DEC machines
running VMS 4.7 except YUBGEF51 running VMS 5.0
I would also like to mention that YUBGEF51 is simple MicroVax 3600 and
it was supposed to be workstation - not traffic handler for SLON,
as you know every traffic from SLON to the world is handled by YUBGEF51.
Machine has so much resource problems - even when it has as low as 10 people
on line - simply the traffic is enormous. Actualy if we do not count
two IBM 3090 MVS machines, YUBGEF51 is handling all of mail traffic for
whole YU. Of course Internet will give some breath to poor machine,
but you should have seen the poor VAX B 4. It was dying every 5 minutes ;-)
Now ETF (EE departmnent - U of Belgrade) has that wierd dream about getting
IBM 3090 VM machine ;-) they do not know how much IBM is expencive. And they
want to put UNIX as operating system. What a waste. UNIX on big IBM machine.
Altough CMS is not my favorite, it's far much serious candidate. But I
do not make decisions - the guys in 'suits' are running the show and they
do not care for scientist as I said.Back to YUPAC ->
YUPAC is also base for our DECnet. Telephone connection is main
media for data link(2nd layer), so when you have lines down, half of the
bitnet is down. The other thing is YUBGSS21 have SATELITE LINK !!!!!!!!
This link is 9.6 Kb/s - two receivers/senders. This by itself
proves that speculation of 'who cut lines' is untrue.
Belgrade is loosing YUPAC if lines are cut, but CRO and SLO
are loosing BITNET if lines are cut. Of course our friends were
very fast and now they have mail Internet ( domain : uni-lj.mail.ac.yu
or uni-zg.mail.ac.yu). There is no need for word that
such connection was payed by all republics, and when they succede
Eastern part of country will not have Internet. Bitnet was funded
by all republics, altough those connections exist as long as
there are telephone lines. BGD will not ban West part of the country
to use Bitnet, while I am sure that Slovenes forgot about being
administrators for Internet for Serbia too. People from Zagreb (IBM
3090 MVS machine too) did not even bother to help Belgrade YUBGSS21
in their search for TCP/IP altough they have so much expirience -
actualy they have their TCP/IP running localy. Now I agree that
'we' are in war, but scientist are never in war, so I cannot
understand Western part of YU being so selfish. They can help
YUBGSS21 in getting things lined up. right?
The other problem w/ YUPAC is that X.25 net (known as x29 - SET
HOST /x29 number - is used on DECnet) is very valuable for
Serbia - actualy the only posibility of using resources out of DECnet.
Would Serbia cut their lines because such thing ? maybe to be
mean to poor Croats you may say - but Croats have their exit to
the world - YUPAC + Internet mail - what do they need more, so
the speculation about Serbia cutting lines is rediculous. Aslo
note that war is going in CRO. CRO did not want 'leaking of info'.
right ?
> I think BITNET was not cut because Serbia needs it; JUPAK was cut to
>stop information flow from Croatia and Slovenia to Serbia. To be
>specific: I think serbian authorities did it.
>
>>P.S. I mentioned YU libr. system. It's interesting that the main node
(VAX8800)
>>was bought by Federal government and simply GIVEN to Slovenia. (RCUMaribor)
>>Now the RCUM guys simply break up that agreement and keep the VAX. That's
>>what one gets when being careless :-)
>
> This is simply *not* true. See Jure Marns explanation, it is accurte
>enough.
I do not remember what was explanation, but I am pretty sure that
network (I mean 3rd layer - X.25) was funded by whole YU. It is enough
if West keeps YUPAC for it self to accusse them of stealing.
of course if Eastern part is allowed to use YUPAC fully and
w/out any restriction likewise Western YU is allowed to use Bitnet
than it is ok. but only under condition 'without any restriction'.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rok Vidmar x.400: S=vidmar;G=rok;O=uni-lj;P=ac;A=mail;C=yu
>UCC, University of Ljubljana inet: rok.v...@uni-lj.ac.mail.yu
>Kardeljeva pl. 17 phone: +38 61 183579
>61000 Ljubljana
>Slovenia
ThanX on your try to mess things up so I need 200 lines to explain.
I hope info I will provide after my .sign will make sure that
I am not laying....
have fun,
Nick
----------------------------YUBGSS21------------------
:nick.YUBGSS21
:a_member.Republicki Zavod za Statistiku;Srbije;Milana Rakica 5;YU-11000 Beograd
:admin.p_mtasic
:connect.19890223
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------------------END------------------------
Hrvoje J Hrgovcic
In the article 1991Oct27....@tc.cornell.edu Ms. Stevan Vidric writes
about the Serbian solution for the war in Croatia. I really do not know is
his attitude a typical Serbian one, but let us look at it anyway, to see
what we can learn from it.
>Gentlemen,
Obviously, what Ms. Vidric has to discuss is men's business, ladies are not
invited.
>... Serbia will restore
>its sovereignty that it foolishly surrendered in 1918 and the new
>country will include the majority of Serbian lands. ...
This is one of the most dearest among official Serbian lines, in which Serbs
were being abused and exploited in Yugoslavia. That is against the common
sense and against the historical facts. It is against the common sense
that Serbs were being abused by Slovenes, Croats, etc. but they do not want
to let those people go their own way. It seems to me if someone is abusing
you, shouldn't you be happy that he wants to leave? But no, in spite of
their suffering and hardship, Yugoslavia is so dear to Serbs, that they
are ready to let conscripts in JNA (ex-federal army), together with
volunteers from Montenegro die for it. So what to think about it? Only
plausible explanation along this line would be that Serbs are masochistic
as a people, but somehow I do not buy that.
Another approach is to remember what Pasic, famous Serbian politician said
about the Serbian loss of sovereignty: "Serbia will not be dissolved in
Yugoslavia, but Yugoslavia will be drowned in Serbia."
>... B&H
>has no historical record of statehood and is simply an artificial
>creation of YU Communist Party (much like Macedonia). ...
I hope there are people from B&H who can enlighten Ms. Vidric. But I
am really dismayed with his notion of Macedonia. Macedonia???????????
Say South Serbia, so that the whole world can understand you!
(Ma reci bre Juzna Srbija, da te ceo svet razume!)
Historical facts:
Macedonian state and church were formed before the Serbian one, they
have their own language, and yes, they were under the Serbian occupation
until the Second World War.
But even more important now is the simple fact that Macedonians do not want
to be the South Serbs again.
>Therefore, Serbs don't worry. ...
>... Just make sure you don't die fighting
>for the army plagued by treason, disorganization, and incompetence.
Now, this is a very practical question. How to achieve the Serbian objectives
without any loss of the Serbian lives? The number of forced conscripts
and volunteers from Montenegro is not enough and is certainly shrinking.
Do you really believe official Belgrade line that Serbs are not dying,
Ms. Vidric? Why do you think the restriction on travel for the people
eligible for army reserve (excuse me, volunteers) is being imposed in
Serbia? Isn't it more realistic to assume that the official policy of
Serbian government and army is: "Casualties, casualties, f**k them! There
is enough of Serbs!"? As was recorded in conversation between two Serbian
JHA officers.
>From your writing, it is obvious that you do not care what happens to
other peoples in Yugoslavia, damage and pain inflicted on them do not
bother you, because you believe that "Serbia can not loose this war ...".
Well, Ms. Vidric, Serbia already lost this war, and not only the war but
its face, its soul and its best people.
And for what, Ms. Vidric? For the very simple lesson that one's tribal
belonging does not automatically grant any superior morale or wisdom,
but that each and every one of us has to work on it individually.
Zeljko Jericevic
Hrvoje J Hrgovcic
My previous posting was submitted prior to Mr Spasovic's slanderous
accusations...
To doctor Jasenovac, in order to alter the record of what happened
there, would be evil indeed. But before I believe it is happening, I
would like to hear it from someone who gets his information from
sources more objective than the propaganda mills of Belgrade, which as
I have noted previously, have on numerous occasions reported on
alleged conspiracy theories involving the Vatican, the freemasons, the
CIA, and Islamic fundamentalists, all of which are allegedly engaged
in the overthrow of Serbia (New York Times, Feb. 18th, Foreign
Affairs, Summer 1991). Also, I recall as late as this May, reading
renewed accusations that Croatia was *planning* to shut down
Jasenovac, which does not square with accusations that it was closed
last year---I might add that the accusations were never followed up.
Also, remember that Jasenovac is currently under control of the
federal army, and is at their mercy; I would therefore want something
more substantive than their word about any claims that Croatians were
obliterating evidence there.
Mr. West's article (BTW, I never assumed or stated he was engaged in
some `conspiracy' with the Serbian government---this was yet another
of Mr Spasovic's misquotes) implied that the Communists tried to
portray the Ustashe as ``anti-fascists'', or tried to mask the
religious aspects of their atrocities. That is bunk, pure and simple.
The Communists made clear both the fact that the Ustashe were
fascists, and driven by their perverted views of Catholicism, and
drilled this into every Croat from the moment of birth. Perhaps Mr
Paic could give us a reprise of the effects this drilling had on him.
That Mr. West would be so foolish to overlook the obvious, was one of
the reasons I found the rest of his article so suspect. *Obviously*,
the Ustashe engaged in religious massacres, and it is again ludicrous
of Mr Spasovic to claim that I deny this.
Incidentally, Mr Spasovic claims that I bring up 3 Jews that support
Tudjman's policies (likely under pressure, Mr. Spasovic assures us).
Another distortion. In fact, I specifically state that Slavko
Goldstein is Tudjman's political opponent, and that he regularly
denounces the man---does Mr Spasovic claim he does *that* under
pressure as well?
In short, Mr Spasovic's continued attempts to misquote me (I suppose
he has tired of doing the same to Dr. Wickerhauser) in order to set up
a straw man he can knock down are just silly. In fact, I *have* said,
recently and previously, that there are many in Croatia (and Serbia)
who would like to obliterate the Yugoslav chapters of the Holocaust,
and I *condemn* such inclinations; my *specific* words, if Mr Spasovic
wants to look them up, included ``dangerous'', ``menace'', deserving
``vigilance'', ``outrage'' and ``condemnation''. If Mr Spasovic finds
this anti-semitic, that is his problem.
Those who accuse others of anti-semitism or revisionism, Mr Spasovic,
should not go around referring, as you do, to the tens of thousands of
Jews killed by Serbia's Nazi-puppet state as ``incidental'' killings.
IF Tudjman does indeed claim that only a million Jews died in the
Holocaust (instead of the six million that I---and I hope you---know
to be true) then he is even more of a pathological idiot than I
previously assumed him to be, which is saying something. However, if
the evidence for such an accusation is based on Belgrade propaganda
that well-meaning others have taken at face value, or if it comes
about from the same kinds of misquotes, distortions, misreading,
etc., that you have so abundantly displayed with respect to my own
postings, then I am equally convinced he has yet to obtain a fair
hearing.
In reducing the vitally serious issue of anti-simitism to a political
billy club in order to further your own agenda, Mr Spasovic, you
trivialize it, and hinder those who are sincerely concerned about
combatting it. Now THAT is anti-semitism.
Hrvoje H.
Hrvoje J Hrgovcic
Submitted on behalf of Zeljko Jericevic
____________________________________________________________________________
In the article 1991Oct27....@tc.cornell.edu Ms. Stevan Vidic writes:
>... that Slovenia and Croatia have never
>had royal families and can not have them now? ...
>... Don't
>you know that Serbia is the only country (with Montenegro) ...
>that has had a royal family and still has it? Don't you know that
>Serbia is the only country on your map that can be monarchy?
Let us first deal with Montenegro. Their king in exile is descendent of
Petar Petrovic Njegos. Now that commands the respect, and I do not see
why the Montenegro can not be the monarchy again? Only thing which comes
to mind is that Serbs will again try to kill Montenegrian monarch. Do you
know any other reasons, Ms. Vidic?
As far as Serbian royal family is concerned, well the story is something
like this: All Serbian nobility from medieval Serbian kingdom was wiped
out by Turks on Kosovo and afterwards. It is safe to say that for the last
five hundred years there was no Serbian nobility alive. But in the last
150 years Serbia even had two dynasties: Karadordevic and Obrenovic.
H.C. Darby describes the founder of Karadordevic dynasty: "The Serbian
ring-leader in 1804 was a DEALER IN PIGS called George Petrovic, better
known as 'Black' George, or Kara George ..."
It looks like to me that it is not difficult to establish the dynasty, at
least not by using the Serbian criteria. But I somehow think that neither
Slovenes or Croats are interested in it.
But I digress. Going back to the Serbian dynasties, the rest of the story
about such established dynasties is as you can expect. H.C. Darby again:
"... of the ten modern rulers of Serbia, four were deposed and three were
murdered." We can also add on this that dynasty left the country in the
moment of need, taking with it the treasury of Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
But do not think for a moment that I have something against your royal
family, Ms. Vidic. Not at all, as long as you keep them for yourself.
I have the terrible suspicion that nobody else in Yugoslavia, but Serbs
is interested in them. The memories of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, with which
Communist dictatorship after WWII compares favorably, are still too fresh.
>... I wonder if Herr Brodnik would approve of Slovenia
>paying (printing) 6 billion tolars to Otto von Habsburg to entice him
>as their king? Maybe he can be your king as well, Herr Brlic, even
>though you don't have precious tolars to pay? Just make sure he
>doesn't go to Jahorina for skiing.
Now, Ms. Vidic, this is really in a bad taste. This Habsburg is not in
any way obstructing Serbian politics, Serbs do not have to kill him, too.
But, if the decision was already made, let us know what will be used this
time: a bomb, a bullet or the cherished Serbian knife?
Zeljko Jericevic
Stanislav Markovic
with some evidence that there are many ways for a Serbian dealer in
pigs to succeed in life.
>
> As far as Serbian royal family is concerned, well the story is something
> like this: All Serbian nobility from medieval Serbian kingdom was wiped
> out by Turks on Kosovo and afterwards. It is safe to say that for the last
> five hundred years there was no Serbian nobility alive. But in the last
> 150 years Serbia even had two dynasties: Karadordevic and Obrenovic.
> H.C. Darby describes the founder of Karadordevic dynasty: "The Serbian
> ring-leader in 1804 was a DEALER IN PIGS called George Petrovic, better
> known as 'Black' George, or Kara George ..."
>
> It looks like to me that it is not difficult to establish the dynasty, at
> least not by using the Serbian criteria. But I somehow think that neither
> Slovenes or Croats are interested in it.
>
It is obvious that Slovenes and Croats had a very hard time after the
WW1. In order to somehow circumvent the awkward fact that they lost
the war, they had to accept that their rulers will be members of the
Dealer-in-Pigs-Dynasty Karadjordjevic ("Svinjarska dinastija
Karadjordjevica"). The expression is, however, not new - this is the
usual derogatory term used. Rather disappointing, Mr. Jericevic.
Anyway, at that time at least Slovenes didn't seem to mind very much.
In fact, on 1. December, 1918, streets of Ljubljana were overcrowded
with people celebrating the union with Croats and Serbs in Kingdom
SHS, and that very same royal family. It must be that at that time
they didn't really know that they are in fact descendants of a filthy
dealer in pigs.
And if you come to think about it, the other European royal families
don't seem to mind either. Not only have they accepted the
Karadjordjevic dynasty, but have established marital relationships
with them too. Of course, that doesn't make them good enough for the
Croatian people. Only when you are in danger of losing territories,
cling on to Yugoslavia. At other times, show your disgust with it.
Once a dealer in pigs - always a dealer in pigs. Or should we leave
out the "a dealer in" part altogether, Mr. Jericevic?
> But I digress. Going back to the Serbian dynasties, the rest of the story
> about such established dynasties is as you can expect. H.C. Darby again:
> "... of the ten modern rulers of Serbia, four were deposed and three were
> murdered." We can also add on this that dynasty left the country in the
> moment of need, taking with it the treasury of Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
> But do not think for a moment that I have something against your royal
> family, Ms. Vidic. Not at all, as long as you keep them for yourself.
> I have the terrible suspicion that nobody else in Yugoslavia, but Serbs
> is interested in them. The memories of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, with which
> Communist dictatorship after WWII compares favorably, are still too fresh.
>
I am really amazed by the ease with which some people, being obviously
anticommunists ("Communist dictatorship"), nevertheless employ
standard communist propaganda whenever it supports certain "facts"
that they would like to prove. At that time, statements that would
normally be discarded as blatant lies, are promoted into widely known
historic facts. As with Mr. Alkalaj, so with Mr. Jericevic.
Pray tell us, Mr. Jericevic, where else, beside your high school
communist history textbooks did you find anything that suggests that
the Karadjordjevici have stolen the treasury of the Kingdom of
Yugoslavia? Pray give us some evidence to your statement that
communist dictatorship after WW2 compares favorably with the Kingdom
of Yugoslavia. Oh, yes, I know. In 1935 we produced n tons of steel,
and in 1975 2n tons.
>
> Now, Ms. Vidic, this is really in a bad taste. This Habsburg is not in
> any way obstructing Serbian politics, Serbs do not have to kill him, too.
> But, if the decision was already made, let us know what will be used this
> time: a bomb, a bullet or the cherished Serbian knife?
>
> Zeljko Jericevic
Serbs can stick to their "cherished knife". However, since the
killings that the Croatian State usually performs are usually
large-scale, their extermination units had to be provided with
adequate means. I think that this invention is attributed to dr. Ante
Pavelic, the Poglavnik himself! A piece of wood is fastened to the
palm of the hand. To that piece of wood, a small curved blade is
attached. It enables you to cut a throat with just a slight wave of
the hand. Very, very efficient. By using this ingenious device, some
members of the Ustashe corps set very high standards in number of
people killed in one day without fire weapons.
As far as bad taste goes, your posting, Mr. Jericevic, is way ahead of
Mr. Vidic's.
--
Stanislav Markovic |phone: (401) 863 7664 (office)
Department of Computer Science | (401) 521 5634 (home)
Box 1910, Brown University |email: s...@cs.brown.edu (Internet)
Providence, RI 02912 | scm@browncs (Bitnet)
Erland Sommarskog
>In the article 1991Oct27....@tc.cornell.edu Ms. Stevan Vidric writes
>about the Serbian solution for the war in Croatia. I really do not know is
>his attitude a typical Serbian one, but let us look at it anyway, to see
>what we can learn from it.
I though his/her (I'm sorry, I'm bad at Slavic names) name was
Vidic. Nevertheless Hrvoje's typo is an interesting Freudian slip
of the keyboard, although probably quite unintentional. But
"Vidric" is close to "vidrig" which is Swedish for "disgusting".
--
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - som...@enea.se