Croat town now a criminal haven
Robert the 'erbert
Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
Wednesday May 2, 2001
The Guardian
A senior British army officer has called on the international community to bring
Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
Lieutenant-Colonel Hector Gullan of the Parachute Regiment and the SAS led an
undercover investigation into the violent intimidation of refugees trying to return
to Stolac, in south-eastern Bosnia, in 1998 and 1999.
His report, delivered to the international authorities in Bosnia, called for the
immediate arrest of 22 people suspected of violence, extortion and intimidation since
the war, and for crimes against humanity during the expulsion of Bosnian Muslims from
the area during the war in the republic in 1993.
But the men his report accused are still free, and in many cases, still hold power.
He made his statement yesterday, after receiving an OBE from the Queen for his
services in Bosnia.
"Until those that perpetrated these appalling crimes, and who continue to rule the
Stolac municipality by fear, are brought to account in the courts - either in
Sarajevo or at the Hague [war crimes tribunal] - and made to stand responsible for
what they did, this medal will never shine as it should," he said.
Before the war Stolac was a town of 8,000 Muslims, 6,000 Croats, and 4,000 Serbs.
Dark red poppies stand out against the bare mountainsides and the scrub vegetation
growing in valleys where the stones seem to outnumber patches of soil. The town
itself, 40 minutes' drive south of Mostar, was a jewel in this wilderness - proposed
for inclusion in Unesco's list of world heritage sites.
Mosques, Catholic and Orthodox churches stood close by. But during the war, and even
afterwards, every sacred and secular building belonging to Muslims was blown up,
including three medieval mosques and 2,000 homes. The aim was to prevent non-Croats
ever returning.
The town is still in ruins, and the ostensible nationalism has become a cover for
hanging on to what was looted in the war, and present-day earnings from running guns
to Kosovo, cigarettes to Italy, and stolen cars through the Balkans.
Non-stolen goods can also be profitable. As no one dares to come from the capital
here to collect taxes, even the sale of everyday consumer goods can line the pocket.
Stark concrete crosses dot the valleys - with little pretence to religious
significance. They are intended to mark territory, and keep out Muslims.
Men with dark glasses watch for intruders outside bars and petrol stations. Within
minutes, the whole network of war criminals and their protectors can be tipped off.
Beside the road are stocks of building material in strategic places. If Bosnian
police make another attempt to seize local criminals - they have failed twice so far
- roads can be blocked in moments, and the police ambushed.
While a few war-crimes suspects are in hiding, many of those accused of being
torturers at the Dretelj, Heliodrome and Gabela concentration camps are still at
large.
Returnees - 2,000 Muslims and several hundred Serbs so far - sometimes see in the
street those who abused and expelled them, and now treat them as second-class
citizens.
Farida (not her real name) will return soon from Mostar, despite her fear of doing
so.
She and her family were among those driven out in 1993. She carried her mother on her
back for several miles in the terrible heat of July, with Croat snipers shooting over
the heads of those fleeing, to spur them on.
On this death march from Buna to Blagaj, Farida had to choose between saving her
mother, or her two young children. To her torment, she abandoned her invalid mother
to die in no-man's land.
Fuad (his name has also been changed) describes Dretelj concentration camp that same
month. Crammed into a metal-roofed hangar in one of the hottest areas of Europe, some
prisoners died in the oven, others went mad. The guards sprayed bullets through the
door, for fun.
"The victims are exaggerating," says the current mayor of Stolac, Zdravko Guzman.
"It's time to forget about the past, and turn instead to the future.'
A member of the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) which wants to break from
Bosnia, he laughs when I ask if it would help reconciliation if Croats apologised for
destroying the Muslims' homes and mosques: "Why should we apologise? Perhaps someone
should apologise to us."
"The people we would like to see arrested" said Harry Leefe, head of the UN refugee
agency in Mostar, "are the serious criminals, the ones who organised the
concentration camps, the torture, the rape camps; the ones who forced women and
children to walk through minefields".
• A bomb yesterday in Vitez - a central Bosnian town dominated by the hardline HDZ -
destroyed the office of the Social Democratic Party, which leads Bosnia's
multi-ethnic government.
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2001
http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,481619,00.html
Darko Peric
Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
news:memo.20010502...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
> SAS investigator asks why gangsters and ethnic warriors live freely in
Stolac, Bosnia
SAS investigator is asked where he was while this town was in the grip
of the Yugoslav secret police?
>
> Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
> Wednesday May 2, 2001
> The Guardian
>
> A senior British army officer has called on the international community to
bring
> Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
Go chase Bob Kerry first. If Croat sources aren't "objective" neither
is the poncey British army for us. Fuck off.
BrianE
"Darko Peric" <da...@thompsonkinetics.com> wrote in message
news:h2WH6.24114$TW.1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
>
> Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
> news:memo.20010502...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
> > SAS investigator asks why gangsters and ethnic warriors live freely in
> Stolac, Bosnia
>
>
> SAS investigator is asked where he was while this town was in the grip
> of the Yugoslav secret police?
Oh that's relevant to Rob's post...
>
>
>
> >
> > Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
> > Wednesday May 2, 2001
> > The Guardian
> >
> > A senior British army officer has called on the international community
to
> bring
> > Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
>
>
>
> Go chase Bob Kerry first. If Croat sources aren't "objective" neither
> is the poncey British army for us. Fuck off.
'Poncey British Army'? Hmm, try repeating that to a few squaddies in
Aldershot on a Friday night.
I've a better idea, why don't all you nationalistic morons, Serbs, Croats
and Albanians fuck off? You know.. Give peace a chance, that sort of thing.
>
>
>
>
>
Darko Peric
BrianE <bria...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:tN8I6.414$Ph5.4980@NewsReader...
>
> "Darko Peric" <da...@thompsonkinetics.com> wrote in message
> news:h2WH6.24114$TW.1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
> >
> > Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
> > news:memo.20010502...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
> > > SAS investigator asks why gangsters and ethnic warriors live freely in
> > Stolac, Bosnia
> >
> >
> > SAS investigator is asked where he was while this town was in the
grip
> > of the Yugoslav secret police?
>
> Oh that's relevant to Rob's post...
>
You're not from Stolac, are you? Do you know the history of this town?
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
> > > Wednesday May 2, 2001
> > > The Guardian
> > >
> > > A senior British army officer has called on the international
community
> to
> > bring
> > > Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
> >
> >
> >
> > Go chase Bob Kerry first. If Croat sources aren't "objective"
neither
> > is the poncey British army for us. Fuck off.
>
> 'Poncey British Army'? Hmm, try repeating that to a few squaddies in
> Aldershot on a Friday night.
And a few of your squaddies got it in 1993 in Livno when they tried to
get smart with our guys.
>
> I've a better idea, why don't all you nationalistic morons, Serbs, Croats
> and Albanians fuck off? You know.. Give peace a chance, that sort of
thing.
As long as your English governments keep your collective pro-Chetnik
noses out of our politics.
BrianE
Got what exactly, Darko? A good kicking, shot to death? I'm sure you're
proud of it either way.
>
>
> >
> > I've a better idea, why don't all you nationalistic morons, Serbs,
Croats
> > and Albanians fuck off? You know.. Give peace a chance, that sort of
> thing.
>
>
>
> As long as your English governments keep your collective pro-Chetnik
> noses out of our politics.
We'd love to, but your *politics* are a disgrace which have led to murder,
mayhem and mass destabilisation. As for 'pro Chetnik' I honestly can't
comment but I suspect this is a label attached by you because you don't like
or can't accept whats happened to your country.
You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
<rant mode off>
Brian.
>
>
Darko Peric
They killed my cousin Tadija Jukic after double-crossing him. Two of
them were shot in retaliation.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I've a better idea, why don't all you nationalistic morons, Serbs,
> Croats
> > > and Albanians fuck off? You know.. Give peace a chance, that sort of
> > thing.
> >
> >
> >
> > As long as your English governments keep your collective pro-Chetnik
> > noses out of our politics.
>
> We'd love to, but your *politics* are a disgrace which have led to murder,
Much like English politics....
> mayhem and mass destabilisation.
Not nearly on the scale as that of the English...
As for 'pro Chetnik' I honestly can't
> comment but I suspect this is a label attached by you because you don't
like
> or can't accept whats happened to your country.
Just stating the facts, sir. From Carrington to Owen and down. At
least Blair got it right (somewhat).
>
> You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
We liberated ourselves. How is that "fucking up"? What we did fuck up
was that prison of peoples, Yugoslavia.
>
> Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
I'm not a bigot. Never have been, never will. And please, try to prove
that I am.
kirill
>
> You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
With generous help from imperial twats like you.
> Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
Hypocrisy must be genetic in your tribe.
Brian Earp
What, as right as Tudjeman and Milosevic?
>
>
>
> >
> > You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
>
>
> We liberated ourselves. How is that "fucking up"? What we did fuck
up
> was that prison of peoples, Yugoslavia.
At what cost Darko?
>
>
>
> >
> > Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
>
>
> I'm not a bigot. Never have been, never will. And please, try to
prove
> that I am.
No, I'm happy to take your word for it.
Nice glib responses, perhaps you should have been a politician.
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on some aspects so let's just
leave it at that.
Brian. Who just gets a teeny bit carried away on occasion.
>
>
>
Brian Earp
"kirill" <kir...@university.edu> wrote in message
news:3AF19E94...@university.edu...
> BrianE wrote:
> >
>
> > You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
>
> With generous help from imperial twats like you.
''Imperialistic twats''? What planet do you come from dipstick?
Brian Earp
> >
>
> > You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
>
> With generous help from imperial twats like you.
How so?
> > Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
>
> Hypocrisy must be genetic in your tribe.
What tribe is that Kirill?
LIE DETECTOR™
<DgiI6.13$Wp1.868@NewsReader>:
Panslavic, shomewhere near the planet Uranus ;)
>
>
>
>
--
The powers-that-be have murdered all those who have taken a stand and
attempted to improve life for the working class, from Jesus Christ to
Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Expect President Milosevic to be the next
victim.
Carl Miller 31 March 2001
I recon Miller's got an Icon corner dedicated to St Sloba the saint of
forward planning and banking :)
Darko Peric
Brian Earp <bria...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:4eiI6.12$Wp1.682@NewsReader...
> >
> > We liberated ourselves. How is that "fucking up"? What we did fuck
> up
> > was that prison of peoples, Yugoslavia.
>
> At what cost Darko?
And do you know the suffering we endured while Yugoslavia was still in
existence? Why do you think I'm in Canada? We fought a war to get out, and
it was well worth the price.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
> >
> >
> > I'm not a bigot. Never have been, never will. And please, try to
> prove
> > that I am.
>
> No, I'm happy to take your word for it.
>
> Nice glib responses, perhaps you should have been a politician.
As Tuta (now in The Hague) said (referring to politicians), "see how
they smile, and all they do is lie".
>
> I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on some aspects so let's just
> leave it at that.
>
> Brian. Who just gets a teeny bit carried away on occasion.
Fair enough.
Brian Earp
>
> Brian Earp <bria...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:4eiI6.12$Wp1.682@NewsReader...
>
>
>
> > >
> > > We liberated ourselves. How is that "fucking up"? What we did
fuck
> > up
> > > was that prison of peoples, Yugoslavia.
> >
> > At what cost Darko?
>
>
>
> And do you know the suffering we endured while Yugoslavia was still in
> existence? Why do you think I'm in Canada? We fought a war to get out,
and
> it was well worth the price.
But surely it wasn't always like that Darko? When I first visited Yugoslavia
back in '77, things appeared to be very good and all that's happened since
has been retrograde. Perhaps that's why I get so annoyed.
Robert the 'erbert
>Go chase Bob Kerry first.
Not falling for that monolithic NATO culture bullshit are you, Darko?
Irrelevant.
> If Croat sources aren't "objective"
That's correct - they aren't as well you know.
> neither is the poncey British army for us.
The British Army don't make executive decisions either via the UN/ICTY not the BiH
government. As for the accusation that the Stolac is controlled by Croat extremists
who practice intimidation, murder and corruption- this is beyond doubt.
> Fuck off.
Nah.
------------------------------------------------------------
'Stand by the riverbank for long enough and eventually the
bodies of your enemies will come floating by.'
/Mao Zedong/
Robert the 'erbert
An example of the "Europeanisation of Bosnian Muslims' Darko?
Ethnic cleansing and destruction in Stolac
Stolac is located in southern Herzegovina, approximately 40 km southeast of Mostar.
It is a quasi-mythical town. Nobel laureate Ivo Andric, author of "The Bridge on the
Drina," once pointed out that "if God created the world anywhere, then he created it
in Stolac". Its municipality was indeed one of the most significant centers of
Bosnian culture, and Bosnia and Herzegovina considered proposing Stolac for the
UNESCO list of mankind's cultural heritage in the 1980s.
Neolithic sketches, about 5,000 years old, were the first traces of civilization in
the area. The Illyrian megalithic fortress Daorson, and subsequently the Roman
fortress Diluntum, preceded Stolac. The town and its architecture were a mixture of
indigenous, oriental, and Mediterranean culture which created its distinctiveness.
In early 1993, the HVO "Knez Domagoj" brigade and the BiH army "Bregava" brigade
fought together against the Serbs. By April, 1993, the HVO turned against the BiH
army and occupied one part of Stolac, dividing its territory with the army of
Republika Srbska. The town was cleansed of its Muslim inhabitants. Then the HVO,
which must have been disturbed by all the eclecticism of the town's architecture,
destroyed much of its cultural heritage.
The first impression one gets of Stolac is one of austerity. It is not a hospitable
environment, with high, arid hills surrounding the town on three sides, its sole
vitality provided by the Bregava river. The town was deserted in the sweltering heat,
most locals bathing in the Bregava, apparently the only form of local entertainment.
We soon ran into a Spanish foot patrol, who were visibly bored, and rather surprised
that anyone would want to visit Stolac. The three told us that the locals had been
placid since IFOR arrived: bar brawls were the only excitement the Spaniards had
witnessed.
Heading eastwards, the road coasts the Uzinovici section of town on a hillside. The
view is one of total destruction. Projectile holes on every roof attest to prolonged
shelling, most likely from the initial stages of the war between the HVO and BiH army
on one side -- the Serbs on the other.
Yet the destruction was far more systematic. Most houses seem to have been dynamited
at the foundations, and whoever did it was thrifty on explosive and not particularly
skillful. The structures are damaged beyond repair -- though most still stand --
slanted at awkward angles, giving the impression of imminent collapse. The HVO was
also kind enough to leave its initials sprayed on these ruins for posterity.
Heading back to the center of Stolac we passed through the Uzinovici section. The old
Orthodox cemetery was surprisingly intact. Not a house around it was still standing.
Eventually we fell upon the ruins of the Ismail-Kapetan Saric mosque. It was formerly
a charming construct built in 1741, adorned with rich flower arabesque. Two years
before the war extensive restoration work was initiated for the conservation and
revival of the mosque complex. The craftsmen's efforts were in vain. In the summer of
1993, when the HVO took over Stolac, the mosque was set on fire and the roof,
together with the minaret, collapsed on itself.
We ventured to look for the other mosques, of which formerly there were, in Stolac
alone, four. Yet the only visible monument in sight was an overturned statue to the
victims of the Second World War. Resigned, we inquired with some local kids. They
pointed at a grassy knoll next to the river, grinning, seemingly amused by our
dismay.
"Who did that?" we inquired. "Why, we Croats did." they replied openly, still
grinning. Their candor was shocking as well as sinister. An elderly man confirmed,
very casually, that the mosque had indeed been where the grassy knoll is today until
the summer of 1993. The mosque of Hadzi-Alija Hadzisalihovic (in the part of town
called Cuprija) was built in 1736. There was formerly a well and a fountain in the
mosque courtyard and the stone minaret was octagonal and 15 meters high. The mosque
was burnt on July 27th 1993, and dynamited on August 2nd 1993. After it was torn
down, the construction material was removed. The grass lawn betrayed nothing.
We then set out to find the Orthodox church of Holy Assumption of Christ, which was
built in 1870. The top of the bell tower at the entrance had been decorated with a
rosette bearing a six-pointed star. A valuable icon from the 17th century had adorned
the church. The church had been looted and then set on fire in the summer of 1992 by
the HVO. They were courteous enough to overturn only one tombstone.
We failed to find the mosque of Ali-Pasha Rizvanbegovic (built in 1732) and the
mosque of Sultan Selim (built in 1519 and considered one of the oldest mosques in
BiH). Later we were told that the first one was burnt on the evening of July 28th
1993 and dynamited on August 8th 1993. It was torn to the ground, and the remaining
construction material was trucked away. The second was burnt and dynamited by HVO
soldiers in the early summer of 1993, causing considerable damage. In early August,
1993, the mosque was dynamited again and torn to the ground. At the same time, all
attached facilities were destroyed. The construction material was later removed.
The war in Bosnia was noted not only for out-and-out attacks on the people of the
region, but also on the various landmarks that made up their cultural identities.
From Mostar to Sarajevo to Banja Luka, religious monuments, libraries and all manner
of memorials in between have been the targets of systematic attack by extremists.
"Why do we feel more pain looking at the image of the destroyed bridge (in Mostar)
than the image of the massacred people?" asked Croatian journalist Slavenka Drakulic
in May of 1994. "Perhaps because we see our own mortality in the collapse of the
bridge... We expect people to die; we count on our own lives to end. The destruction
of a monument to civilization is something else. The bridge, in all it's beauty and
grace was built to outlive us. It was an attempt to grasp eternity. It transcended
our individual destiny."
The only comforting fact on this trip was that the ancient Roman castle above Stolac
and the necropolis still stand. This perhaps is because there aren't many Romans
around these days and thus pose no apparent ethnic or political threat.
Destroyed Islamic heritage in Stolac
Hadzi Salihova Mosque
Hadzi Alijina Mosque
Sultan Selim Javuz Mosque
Silahtar Yusuf Pasa Hamam
Ali Pasa Rizvanbegovica House
Old House (Museum)
Dzulhanumina House
Destroyed Libraries in Stolac
In the aftermath of the 1992-95 genocide in Bosnia, we are beginning to see
publications put together by exiles and refugees seeking to preserve the memory of
their shattered communities as well as the memory of what was done to them ... and
the names of those responsible.
From the information on what was destroyed in just one municipality (see excerpts
below), one can get some sense scale of the losses, in most cases irretrievable, of
unique original manuscripts, historical documents and the records of communal and
private libraries and archives throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.
One such volume was published by the presidency-in-exile of Stolac Municipality,
entitled:
_Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994)._ 84 pp. : ill., maps [no date of
publication indicated; acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
The volume records in careful and detailed fashion the human rights violations
inflicted on civilians from Stolac, lists of those killed and imprisoned, and
item-by-item details on the systematic destruction of non-Croat cultural property in
Stolac - including all Islamic and Orthodox Christian houses of worship - by the
Bosnian Croat nationalist militia (HVO), including:
-- 4 mosques in Stolac (dating from the 16th-18th centuries), destroyed by an HVO
unit in the summer of 1993;
-- 7 mosques in villages near Stolac, destroyed by HVO in the summer of 1993;
-- the Orthodox church of the Holy Assumption of Christ (built 1870, with a painted
iconostasis from the 18th century); interior torched in the summer of 1992 by an HVO
unit from Capljina; -- Ottoman-era mansions (konak) and residential ensembles,
markets, shops and baths (hamam), dating from the 17th-19th centuries, destroyed by
HVO in the summer of 1993.
Also included, as part of a listing of the destruction of movable cultural property
in Stolac (pp. 49-54), is the following information on the fate of public and private
libraries, manuscript collections, and archives:.
Public collections
-- Library of the Muslim Community Board in Stolac - a valuable collection of printed
and manuscript documents and books, as well as forty manuscripts from the 17th-19th
centuries. This library was destroyed in mid-July 1993, along with the branch at Tepa
and the offices and records of the Muslim Community Board.
-- Library of the Emperor's Mosque in Stolac - tens of manuscripts in Bosnian,
Arabic, Turkish and Persian, from the 17th-19th centuries. Burned and together with
the Emperor's Mosque (Careva dzamija, Mosque of Sultan Selim I, built 1519) in early
August 1993; the ruins were dynamited and removed. At the time of the burning,
soldiers of the HVO unit responsible were quartered in a nearby primary school. Among
them were: Marijan Prce (father's name Nikola), police officer, resident of Crnici,
village of Jasoc, Stolac municipality; Nikola Vojnovic (father's name Vinko); Zrdavko
Pazin (father's name Ljubo), resident of the village of Dabrica, Stolac municipality.
-- Library of the Pogradska Mosque in Stolac - tens of manuscripts and documents from
the 18th-19th c. The library was burned in the fire set by HVO to destroy the
Pogradska Mosque (founded in 1732-33 as the Mosque of Hadzi-Salih Buro, in 1812-13
renamed Mosque of Ali Pasha Rizvanbegovic after extensive renovations). The mosque
was burned at 11 o'clock in the evening of 28 July 1993, and mined on 8 August 1993.
The rubble remaining after the explosion was trucked away and the site was leveled.
According to available eyewitness testimonies, in addition to Marijan Prce, Nikola
Vojnovic and Zdravko Pazin, Rudolf Colic (father's name Niko), a resident of the town
of Stolac, and Zdenko Beno (father's name Miho), also a resident of Stolac, were
among those who took part in the destruction of the mosque.
Private collections:
Several important family collections of documents, manuscript books and valuable
printed books were destroyed as Muslim families were expelled from Stolac and their
homes looted and burned in the summer of 1993. There is only partial information on
the contents of some of these collections. [The 50 bound manuscripts (39 Arabic, 2
Persian, 9 Turkish) of the Habiba Mehmedbasic collection are described in an article
published in _Anali Gazi Husrev-begove Biblioteke_ vol. 11-12 (1985), pp. 181-200, by
Fehim Nametak.]
Totally destroyed were the manuscript libraries and archives of the following old
families of Stolac:
- Behmen
- Mahmutcehajic
- Mehmedbasic
- Rizvanbegovic
Article written by Michael A. Sells, e-mail, on 00-00-0000.
http://stolac.mcni7e.dk/history.php3?page=3
Robert the 'erbert
> They killed my cousin Tadija Jukic after double-crossing him. Two of
> them were shot in retaliation.
Murdered?
Robert the 'erbert
> >
> > > As long as your English governments keep your collective pro-Chetnik
> > noses out of our politics.
>
> > We'd love to, but your *politics* are a disgrace which have led to murder,
> Much like English politics....
No such thing Darko. The English have no political representation in the UK in an
English executive only via the British parliament unlike the Northern Irish, Scottish
or Welsh.
> > As for 'pro Chetnik' I honestly can't
> > comment but I suspect this is a label attached by you because you don't
> > like or can't accept whats happened to your country.
> Just stating the facts, sir. From Carrington to Owen and down. At
> least Blair got it right (somewhat).
There's a lot of truth to this. The British establishment has traditionally been
pro-Serb and this manifested itself via the British government's Balkan policies in
the 1990's
Robert the 'erbert
Letter of Marko Rozic
Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
Croat Community of Herceg Bosna [HZHB]
Croat Defence Council
Municipality of Jablanica
Defence Department
no. 02-106/93
Department of Defence HZ HB to Mr Slobodan Bozicic personally
Subject: Report of 23.04.1993 at 12.00 hours
Following armed conflicts in the settlements of Doljani and Sovcici, all
members of the Armija were arrested and interrogated, and the civilians
collected in several places. We are holding altogether 422 women and children,
and 25 recruits. A further 94 recruits have been sent to Ljubuski. 7 recruits
who were killed, and who belonged to the ABH in Sovcici, have already been
buried. After the end of the conflict in this area, all Muslim houses were
burned down and two mosques destroyed on the order of higher commanders.
Since we have no means of contacting Muslim representatives, regarding the
situation in which we now find ourselves and our own civilians imprisoned in
Jablanica, we ask for your directives regarding negotiations and the future
treatment of the prisoners.
Head of Defence Department
Municipality of Jablanica
Marko Rozic
http://www.barnsdle.demon.co.uk/bosnia/stolac.html
Robert the 'erbert
Herzeg-Lager
/Gordan Malic/
In July 1993 university professor Fahrudin Rizvanbegovic was arrested as a civilian
in his home town of Stolac and sent to the HVO 'collection centre' at Dretelj. He
spent six months altogether in the camps at Dretelj and Ljubuski witnessing brutal
interrogations, starvation and murder. The inmates included thirteen-year-old
children and men of seventy. The children could be seen gradually changing their
physiognomy, acquiring the faces we have seen on photographs from Dachau, Kolima and
Omarska. After his release, Professor Rizvanbegovic spent some time in Zagreb, then
went to Sarajevo. He is now minister of education in the government of the Federation
of Bosnia- Herzegovina.
He estimates that during that summer, on the territory of the 'Croatian Community of
Herzeg-Bosna', about twenty thousand Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) passed through the
'collection centres' at Gabela, Dretelj, Ljubuski, the Mostar Helidrom, Otoka near
Vitine, Kocerina, Posusje, Duvno, Sujica, Bijelo Polje and Siroki Brijeg. In some of
these prisoners were brutally tortured and killed: dozens of Bosniaks undoubtedly
died simply as a result of torture. Not a single perpetrator has been brought to
justice. The camp managers have since been moved to new duties, and the 'collection
centres' closed down or returned to their former functions.
The notorious camps in Dretelj and Gabela were only half an hour's drive from the
Croatian border, just off the main road. Yet not a single Croatian official,
journalist, Catholic cleric or Red Cross representative ever went to them. In August
1993 members of the Croatian Helsinki Watch did try to visit the camps, but they were
prevented. It was only the international press that started to write about them.
One journalist who wrote about them at that time was Pulitzer Prize winner Roy
Gutman. 'Only a year ago the Croats and the Muslims fought against the
Serbian-dominated Yugoslav army. Now they are stuck in an agony, fighting what has
become a general civil war. Mostar is the biggest prize. The Old City is the target
of aimless shelling, reminiscent of Vukovar ... in comparison with east Mostar, even
Sarajevo appears intact. Each day at least two or three people die from hunger or
sickness. Hundreds of gun shells fired from west Mostar hit day and night the
predominantly Muslim Old City, killing daily about eight people and wounding another
thirty.' Gutman called the Croat- Muslim war a 'war within the war', ascribing it to
causes which he heard from the HVO commander Slobodan Praljak. General Praljak had no
hesitation in defining the war in terms of Lebensraum, the very German word used by
the Nazis to justify their expansion into Eastern Europe. 'The Croat leaders (under
the signature of the then minister of defence Bozo Rajic) demanded military control
over the three "Croat" provinces in the Vance-Owen plan, including Mostar. Insisting
on an ethnically pure state to be called Herzeg-Bosna, the Croats started to stop
convoys and on 9 May the siege of Mostar began', wrote Gutman.
General Praljak (who was probably the greatest demagogue and adventurer of the anti-
Muslim debacle, and the destroyer of the famous Old Bridge in Mostar) has since
stated: 'in the same situation I would have repeated the war a hundred times'. When I
heard this, I was reminded of a conversation I had at the time with the Mostar HVO
commander Jadranko Topic. The war in Mostar was still going on. Along with the coffee
and cigarettes, he offered his overall view of the problem: 'I do not deny that the
Muslims have as much right to Mostar as the Serbs or us. The only question is who is
stronger in asserting that right.' Behind this simple explanation, devoid of sarcasm,
his gaze was that of a man at peace with himself. A few months earlier, dressed in
his HVO uniform, he had walked with a loudspeaker through the Old City inviting the
Bosniaks to surrender by hanging white sheets on their houses. Then the HVO artillery
barrage launched what was to be one of the most bloody of the local wars within the
Bosnian conflict.
Even before this had come the sudden mass arrest of Muslim soldiers serving in the
HVO, in the municipality of Stolac. The commander of the HVO's Bosniak unit 'Bregava'
was imprisoned in the Capljina barracks, where he was soon joined by the members of
the SDA executive committee for Stolac, the officers of the humanitarian society
'Merhamet', and the most prominent members of the local Islamic Community. 'Ethnic
cleansing' had begun. It was completed during the first five days of August. Out of
more than 8,000 Stolac Bosniaks (forming over 80% of the urban population), only a
few families were left, saved mainly thanks to mixed marriages, business connections
or other kinds of obligations (as, for example, when the Mostar bishop Peril
protected an old Muslim family which, fifty years before, had saved Bishop Peric's
family from persecution by the Partisans).
Crimes in the Municipality of Stolac 1992-94, recently published by the authorities
in east Mostar and immediately denounced by their counterparts in west Mostar as 'a
flagrant infringement of the Dayton Agreement', presents the chronology of the war
neatly and meticulously. The book cites, in relation to what happened in Stolac, a
long list of local politicians, headed by Mate Boban, Pero Markovic, Ivan Bender and
Jadranko Prlic. The names of HVO officers figure there too, beginning with Slobodan
Praljak; Stolac police officers Valentin Coric and Pero Raguza; president of the
local HDZ Andelko Markovic; commanders of the local HVO Bozo Pavlovic and Veselko
Raguz. Charges are levelled also against HVO units such as the 'Knez Domagoj'
brigade, against the HVO from western Herzegovina (Neum and Capljina) and against
many smaller groups such as the 'Bozanovi', for being 'responsible for the murder of
civilians'. The book also accuses Croatian President Tudjman, government ministers
Susak and Jarnjak, General Bobetko and former Prime Minister Valentic.
Not all the statements found in this book can be described as wholly objective, but
the occasional exaggeration does not call into question all the other facts the book
contains. It is clear why the reactions to the book in 'Herzeg-Bosna' have omitted
any mention of the evidence it contains. Most of this refers to the experiences of
Bosniak camp prisoners. A good number of prisoners from Stolac, arrested on 13 July
1993, were locked up in the camps in Dretelj and Gabela, while their property was
systematically looted and burned.
In Stolac, all Muslim cultural monuments and other buildings with a recognizable
Muslim identity (which formed a good part of the town) were burned down and
destroyed, beginning with the four mosques of which the oldest - the Imperial Mosque
- was built in 1519. The old Stolac 'Tepa Square' was burnt down and destroyed: the
ground was subsequently cleared and now awaits the building of 'Ante Starcevic
Square', as part of an urban renewal project. The Muslim graveyard, located behind
Tepa, which alone survived intact the first days of the HVO regime, was destroyed
after Dayton along with the few remaining Bosniak buildings. It too awaits a new
Croat re-design.
The HVO continues to reject the charge of an organized urbicide, arguing that the
destruction was due to the violence of fighting. This is negated by the evidence of
wholesale destruction of Bosniak buildings visible from the mouth of the River
Neretva all the way to Jablanica. Feral Tribune is in possession of documents proving
that the destruction of the mosques and looting of Muslim houses in the Jablanica
municipality was done systematically and by order of the HVO command. One of the
documents bears the signature of Marko Rozic,who - as head of Jablanica's defence
force - executed an order that came from above to destroy the two Jablanica mosques
and to loot and burn Muslim property. Marko Rozic now works within the Herzeg-Bosna
structure as a senior official for humanitarian issues.
As for the establishment of the 'collection centres', it is more difficult here to
establish the chain of command, because the highest authorities did not leave written
evidence. According to Crimes in the Municipality of Stolac, 1559 Bosniak men and 49
women and old people from Stolac were imprisoned in camps run by the HVO between
April 1993 and April 1994. 19 died there. Other prisoners came from the Mostar and
Jablanica areas. After their release, the inmates were prohibited from returning to
their homes and their land. Some of them were sent to Croatia - to the 'collection
centre' on the island of Korcula - and then on to third countries. Of the total
inhabitants of the municipality of Stolac, 1,916 were deported in this way from
Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina territory.
The Dretelj camp consisted of 6 or 7 storage sheds and two concrete tunnels, plus two
isolation cells. 450-700 people were cramped into the 200 square metres of each shed.
In the summer months the temperature within them rose at times to 50 C. The situation
was even worse in the tunnels, whose metal doors were always kept shut. In the
Gabelica camp, former JNA ammunition storage rooms were used. The camp was made up of
four storage sheds and three isolation cells. The prison manager was Boko Previsic, a
certified psychopath. At the start of October, Previsic murdered before witnesses a
prisoner called Mustafa Obradovic for smuggling food remains to the prisoners.
After insisting that his anonymity be protected, a former Gabelica camp guard - an
educated man from a neighbouring village, who was drafted to this duty - told me
about numerous maltreatments and murders which HVO members had committed against the
imprisoned Bosniaks. The camp was visited frequently at night by members of elite HVO
units from western Herzegovina, who were said to be under the direct command of Mate
Boban and Tuta Naletilic. This witness stated also: 'They would make me open the shed
door and then they would turn fire-hoses on the prisoners. They would bring some of
them out and beat them. Sometimes they fired at the crowd, killing some of them.
Every day we would force the Muslims to sing Croat marching and Ustasha songs, or
lecture them on the dangers of "Alija's Fundamentalism".' The prisoners had to
relieve themselves inside the sheds, and the thirst forced many to drink their own
urine. It seems quite unbelievable that most Croatian politicians learnt of the
existence of these camps and torture chambers from the foreign press.
In conversation with Stipe Mesic, we learnt that Tudjman's view of the matter was
that 'others have such camps as well.' Tudjman rightly describes them as camps rather
than 'collection centres'. By all accepted civilizational standards, and also
according to the Geneva Convention, the Herzegovina camps were concentration camps.
Yet nobody responsible for them has been called to account, or sent to The Hague
Tribunal. The small booklet about the crimes in Stolac - so irritating for many Croat
politicians - is exceptional in this regard, and also in that it does not hesitate to
name the relevant Croatian leaders. To what extent this step is based on a realistic
assessment of what is possible, and to what extent it simply satisfies the needs of
the abused Bosniaks for facts to be recorded, can best be left to dialecticians of
the Slobodan Praljak type.
Robert the 'erbert
War Crimes in Stolac
The Complete Text of Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994). 84 pp. : ill., maps [no date of publication indicated;acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
This volume records in careful and detailed fashion the human rights violations inflicted on civilians from Stolac municipality, lists of those killed and imprisoned, details the allegations against more than 150 suspected criminals against humanity, and offers an item-by-item details on the systematic destruction of non-Croat cultural property in Stolac - including all Islamic and Orthodox Christian houses of worship - by the Bosnian Croat nationalist militia (HVO). Below is the text in four
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4559/StolacCrimes.html
CRIMES IN STOLAC MUNICIPALITY (1992-1994)
by Stolac Municipality
PERPETRATORS OF CRIMES
Many organizations and public figures in the Republic of Croatia are responsible for crimes committed in Stolac. The official authorities of Croatia are responsible for planning and preparation of the conquest, as well for instigating crimes committed. They are responsible for supporting and assisting the parastate of Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia, in their attempts to destroy the legal and constructional systems of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the military rebellion, part of which were the crimes committed in Stolac.
The following units of the Croatian Army were especially trained for the conquest of Stolac and were dispatched to Stolac:
-the Split brigade; -the Ploce brigade; -the First Guard Brigade “Tigers” from Zagreb; -”Wolves of Korcula” brigade from the island of Korcula; -units from Metkovic; -a number of small units from different parts of the Republic of Croatia. Officers of the Croatian Intelligence Service (SIS) were organized to act throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
The following organizations and individuals bear a particular responsibility:
1. Franjo Tudjman, President of the Republic of Croatia; 2. Croatian Democratic Community (HDZ), its president Franjo Tudjman; 3. Gojko Susak, Minister of Defense; 4. Ivan Jarnjak, Minister of Internal affairs; 5. Nikica Valentic, prime Minister; 6. Gen. Janko Bobetko, Chief of Staff, Croatian Army HQ.
The following bodies and individuals of the rebel parastate authorities of Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia, and paramilitary units of HVO, bear responsibility for an organized execution of crimes against Bosniaks in Stolac, and the destruction of historic heritage of international value:
1. Croatian Democratic Community (HDZ) of Bosnia and Herzegovina, its president Mate Boban; 2. Presidential Council of CCHB, President Mate Boban; members: Pero Markovic (Capljina), Ivan bender (Neum), Jadranko Prlic (Mostar), and others; 3. Croatian Defense Council -- HVO (Croat paramilitary forces in B&H), Gen. Slobodan Praljak, HVO HQ Chief of Staff; 4. Civilian police of CCHB, Commander Valentin Coric; 5. HDZ Stolac, President Andjelko Markovic; 6. President of illegal authorities of Stolac municipality, Andjelko Markovic; 7. Military command of the town, Commander Bozo Pavlovic; Veselko (son of Stjepan) Raguz, as of July 1993; 8. Police station in the town of Stolac, Commander Pero Raguz; etc.
The following units took part in crimes against Bosniaks in the town of Stolac:
-HVO brigade “Knez Domagoj”; -HVO soldiers from Western Herzegovina, Neum and Capljina; -a number of small units, such as “Bozanovi”, responsible for numerous murders of civilians.
The following individuals took particularly significant part in the execution of crimes:
ALAGIC, ADO (son of Mustafa), resident of Pocitelj, Capljina Municipality 1. He took part robbing detained Bosniaks of money and valuables in “Dretelj” camp. Upon arrival, detainees were robbed of all money.
ANDRUN, NIKOLA (son of Drago), born on 22 November 1957, in Domanovici, Capljina municipality (ID 22119571511130) 1. Took part in cruel torture of Mirsad Zujo, aka Sile, inflicting grievous bodily harm. He and Nikola Pehar later took Mirsad Zujo in their vehicle in an unknown direction. There has been no trace of Zujo since. 2. Andrun was on of the persons present at the murder of Mustafa Obradovic.
BABIC, ZDENKO (son of Ivo), aka Pupara, resident of Stolac 1. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps in RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were held, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality.
BABIC, ZARA, resident of Prenj, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BENO, ZDENKO (son of Miho), resident of Stolac, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed. Zdenko Beno was one of the soldiers who were particularly cruel in their abuse at night. 2. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniaks from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps in RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were held, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality. 3. He took part in mining the mosque of Hadzi-Salih Buro in Stolac, on 8 August 1993. 4. He took part in burning of houses and destruction of property of Bosniaks in Stolac. All houses owned by distinguished Bosniaks, which were a pa
rt of Bosniak cultural heritage, were burnt to ground.
BESIC, SENAD, aka Trebinje 1. On 5 August 1993, in “Dretelj” camp, he hit on the head and killed Emir Repak, who was previously tortured and injured.
BOSKOVIC, ANDJELKO, resident of Crnici, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed. Andelko Boskovic was on of the soldiers who were particularly cruel in their abuse at night.
BOSKOVIC, ANTUN, aka Krakic 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BOSKOVIC, BOSKO (son of Pero), policeman, resident of Aladinici, Stolac municipality 1. Committed the crime of robbery of detained Bosniak civilians from Dubrave, when they were being transferred from the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici to the village of Pjesivac, to houses of Kaplan and Djulic families. Valuables were removes from detainees by force, therefore being deported from the Stolac area on 2 August 1993. He personally removed underwear from women, while their jewelry and valuables were being robbed.
2. He took part in burning of houses and destruction of property of Bosniaks in Stolac. All houses owned by distinguished Bosniaks, which were a part of the Bosniak cultural heritage, were burnt to the ground. 3. He took part in burning of five houses and one school in the village of Aladinici on 1 August 1993. 4. He took part in crimes of murder and infliction of grievous bodily harm to a group of Bosniaks detained after 13 July 1993 in the Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He took part in murders of Vejsil Djulic, Salem Djulic, Meho Baljic, Suad Obradovic, as well as infliction of grievous bodily harm upon Salko Kaplan, Emir Repak, Mirsad Zujo, Ibro Razic, and Arif Zele.
BOSKOVIC, FABIJAN (son of Stojan) 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BOSKOVIC, IVAN, aka Hapalo, resident of Crnici, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed. Ivan Boskovic was one of the soldiers who were particularly cruel in their abuse at night.
BOSKOVIC, LAZAR, aka Grgurevac 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BOSKOVIC, LJUBO, (son of Vido), resident of the village of Aladinici, Stolac municipality 1. He took part in burning of houses and destruction of property of Bosniaks in Stolac. All houses owned by distinguished Bosniaks, which were a part of the Bosniak cultural heritage, were burnt to the ground. 2. he took part in burning five houses and one barn in Aladinici on 1 August 1993.
BOSKOVIC, MARIN, aka Marusica, (son of Simun), born on 31 January 1969 in Aladinici, Stolac municipality (ID 3101969153752). 1. As a HVO soldier, on several occasions, he took part in cruel torture of detained Bosniaks, who were doing forced labor in Santiceva str. in Mostar. 2. On 12 September 1993, he ordered HVO soldiers to beat Emir Setka, a detainee of “” camp, while he was doing forced labor in Santiceva str. in Mostar. 3. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps in RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were held, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality.
BOSKOVIC, NIKICA, aka Nehora 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BOSKOVIC, NIKO, aka Cola 1. He took part in crimes of murder and infliction of grievous bodily harm to a group of Bosniaks detained after 13 July 1993 in the Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He took part in murders of Vejsil Djulic, Salem Djulic, Meho Baljic, Suad Obradovic, as well as infliction of grievous bodily harm upon Salko Kaplan, Emir Repak, Mirsad Zujo, Ibro Razic, and Arif Zele.
BOSKOVIC, SRECKO, taxi driver, resident of Crnici, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed. Srecko Boskovic was one of the soldiers who were particularly cruel in their abuse at night.
BOSKOVIC, VLATKO, resident of Crnici, Stolac municipality 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
BRAC, VIDE, resident of the village Pjesivac, Stolac municipality 1. he is suspected to be responsible for the murder of Mujo (son of Osman) Djulmez. He is suspected to have been a member of the group who ambushed and killed Mujo Djulmez in Muminovaca, in July 1993. 2. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed. Vide Brac used his own cargo vehicle for the deportation.
BUNOZA, DRAGAN, aka Jastreb, (son of Andrija), born in Dracevo, Capljina municipality 1. He committed the crime of murder of 18 year old Senida (daughter of Hamzo) Kaplan, on 13 July 1993. He killed her by shooting at her from an automatic rifle, while she was standing in front of her house.
BUTIGAN, ANTE, aka Cigo 1. He was commander of HVO Military Police, during the robbery of property of Bosniaks and Serbs, as well as robbery of enterprises and institutions in Stolac.
CEMERAS, MILE, (son of Ljubo), born on 15 August 1942 in Tasovcici, Capljina municipality (ID 158942151133) 1. He was a guard in “Gabela” camp, one of the cruelest in beating and other types of abuse of detained Bosniaks. 2. He took part in the murder of Alija Colakovic in the “Gabela” camp, in front of hangar No. 3. 3. He took part in torturing, and is suspected to have taken part in the murder of the missing Mirsad Zujo, a detainee of “Gabella” camp.
COLIC, RUDOLF, (son of Niko), resident of Stolac, Stolac municipality 1. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps of RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were detained, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality. 2. He took part in mining Hadzi-Salihs Buro's mosque in Stolac, on 8 August 1993. 3. He took part in destroying Begovina housing unit in Stolac, a part of cultural heritage. 4. He took part in burning houses and destruction of property in Stolac. All houses owned by distinguished Bosniaks, which were a part of the Bosniak cultural heritage, were burnt to the ground.
GADZIC, BOJAN, (son of Maro) 1. He took part in crimes of murder and infliction of grievous bodily harm to a group of Bosniaks detained after 13 July 1993 in Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He took part in murders of Vejsil Djulic, Salem Djulic, Meho Baljic, Suad Obradovic, as well as infliction of grievous bodily harm upon Salko Kaplan, Emir Repak, Mirsad Zujo, Ibro Razic, and Arif Zele.
GRBESIC, ZDENKO (son of Ivan) 1. As a prisoner (imprisoned because of theft and similar acts), he was particularly cruel in torturing Bosniaks in "Gabella" camp. 2. He took part in the murder of Enver Sabanovic from Pocitelj.
GRGIC, DRAZENKO (son of Vide) 1. He took part in the crime of deportation of civilian Bosniak population from Dubrave, as the commander of one of the groups of soldiers who expelled Bosniaks from their homes and detained them in the "Branko Sotra" primary school in Crnici, on 13 July 1993.
GUSIC, MEHMED (son of Mujo), born on 2 October 1950, in Capljina, (ID 0210950151158) 1. He assisted to the authorities in "Dretelj" and "" camps, where he took part in physical and other kinds of torturing of detained Bosniaks.
HAJNOS, ANTON (son of Karlo) 1. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps of RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were detained, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality.
JOVIC, TONI 1. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps of RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were detained, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality.
JURAK, VLATKO, aka Doktor 1. He took part in the crime of expulsion and deportation of Bosniak population from Stolac. He was one of the HVO soldiers who detained the population in camps of RMK factory and local highschool, on 3 and 4 August 1993. Detained Bosniaks were detained, robbed, and then deported to Buna, Mostar municipality.
JURKOVIC, MIRKO (son of Vicko), from Crnici, Stolac municipality 1. He was commander of HVO military police during the looting of enterprises and institutions in Stolac.
JURKOVIC, NIKO, aka Lisac 1. Took part in the crime of mass deportation and detention of over 1500 women, elderly, and children from Dubrave, Stolac municipality, which began on 13 July 1993. Civilians were detained in the “Branko Sotra” primary school in Crnici. They were intimidated, abused, starved, tortured by thirst, and robbed.
JURKOVIC, ZDRAVKO (son of Vicko), from Crnici 1. He was commander of HVO military police during the looting of enterprises and institutions in Stolac. he is directly responsible for the organization and exemption of looting. 2. He was particularly cruel in torturing and robbing the civilians during their deportation.
JURKOVIC, ZORAN (son of Djuro) 1. He took part in the crime of deportation of civilian Bosniak population from Dubrave, as the commander of on of the groups of soldiers who expelled Bosniaks from their homes and detained them in the "Branko Sotra" primary school in Crnici, on 13 July 1993.
KARLOVIC, DRAGAN, aka Kaca 1. He took part in crimes of murder and infliction of grievous bodily harm to a group of Bosniaks detained after 13 July 1993 in Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4559/StolacCrimes1.htm
Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994)
by Stolac Municipality
KILLED AND MISSING PERSONS
1. BALJIC, MEHO (son of Salko), born in 1961 in the village of Orahovica. Resident of the same village;
(Members of HVO arrested him on 2 October 1993, and took him to the police station in Stolac. He stayed there for several days. In early November 1993, Marijan Prce, from the village of Jasoc. took Meho Baljic from the police station to the Bone Diseases Hospital in Stolac. Nothing has been heard about Meho Baljic since. He is presumed killed.)
2. BEHRAM, ALIJA (son of Ahmet), born in 1913 in the village of Rotimlja. Resident of the same village;
(From mid-July 1993, he lived in the village of Lokve, Capljina municipality, as a displaced person, in the house of Hamza Rahic. Following deportation of the Bosniaks from the area, he stayed in Lokve, since he was unable to walk. There is no information about his body.)
3. BEHRAM, AZIZ (son of Alija), born in 1942 in the village of Rotimlja. Resident of the same village.
(Killed in July 1993, while hiding from the HVO soldiers. No information about his body.)
4. BESO, MUSTAFA (son of Murat), born in 1953 in Barani. Resident of the same village;
(He was arrested on 13 July 1993 in Gubavica, Capljina municipality, while visiting inlaws with his family. He was taken to the Capljina police station the same day. After being held there for two days with no food and water, he was moved to the ÒGabelaÓ camp. On 15 October 1993, he was taken to the HVO barracks in Grabovina, near Capljina, to do forced labor. During the night he was killed by revolver fire, by Zdenko Trlin, aka Toni, born in Podorasac, Konjic municipality, accompanied by Miso Papac, from Pusiste, Stolac municipality. The body was buried in the area of Modric, Capljina municipality.)
5. BUCMAN, ADELA (daughter of Meho), born in 1983 in the village of Orasje, near Rotimlja. Resident of the same village;
(Killed by fire arms on 14 July 1993, in her residence, in front of the house of Omer Bucman. The body was left in front of the house. The killers were soldiers of HVO ÒLudvik PavlovicÓ unit, so-called ÒBozanoviÓ. During the morning, members of the unit were seen leaving the village after the shooting.)
6. BUCMAN, ADIS (son of Meho), born in 1988 in the village of Orasje, near Rotimlja.
(Same as above.)
7. BUCMAN, DJULSA (daughter of Salko), born in 1934. Resident of Orasje, near Rotimlja.
(Same as above.)
8. BUCMAN, MELIHA (daughter of Hasan), born in 1962. Resident of Orasje, near Rotimlja.
(Same as above.)
9. BUCMAN, OMER (son of Meho), born in 1934 in Orasje, near Rotimlja. Resident of the same village;
(Same as above.)
10. BUCMAN, RASIM (son of Omer), born in 1962 in Orasje, near Rotimlja. Resident of the same village;
(Same as above.)
11. DJULIC, SALEM (son of Mujo), born in 1962 in Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(Arrested on 2 August 1993 in his house and taken to the Bone Diseases Hospital in Stolac. After savage torture, died of wounds inflicted by torture, on 3 August 1993. His body was buried in the cemetery in Pjesivac, village of Greda. The following persons were accomplices in the murder of Salem Djulic: Nikica Obradovic, aka Hegilo, Drazenko (son of Vidan) Vidic, Pero Pavlovic, Marinko Puljic, Milanovic Zdenko, son of Ilija, as well as others whose names have not been confirmed yet. The following persons participated the torture: Pero Palameta, Nikica Boskovic, aka Hegilo, and Ilija Krestic, from the town of Hodovo.)
12. DJULIC, VEJSIL (son of Omer), born in 1936 in Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(He was arrested on 2 August 1993, in Pjesivac, during deportation of Bosniak population. He was taken to the Bone Diseases Hospital in Stolac on the same day. Following savage torture, he died of wounds inflicted during torture, on 3 August 1993. The body of Vejsil Djulic was buried in a cemetery in Pjesivac, village of Greda. Murderers were the same as for Salem Djulic.)
13. DJULMEZ, OSMAN (son of Mujo), born in 1940 in Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(HVO soldiers arrested him on 25 June 1993 and transported him to Grabovine, Capljina municipality. He was released from detention, but he was ambushed in Muminovaca by men who are still unidentified. They took him to a nearby forest. Three months later, members of civil defense found his naked body there. He was buried in Modric. OsmanÕs family suspects that the murder was committed by Vide Brac, their neighbour from Pjesivac.)
14. FILANDRA, IBRAHIM (son of Zulfo), born in 1964 in Crnici, village of Jasoc. Resident of the same village;
(On 4 December 1993, he was taken from the ÒHeliodronÓ detention camp, to do forced labor. He was killed on the Boulevard of Mostar, forced to serve as a Òlive shieldÓ for HVO soldiers. He was buried in the Saric cemetery in Mostar.)
15. HAJDAREVIC, ELVIR (son of Ahmet), born in 1974 in Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(HVO soldiers arrested him on 13 July 1993 and took him to ÒDreteljÓ camp, near Capljina. On 21 August 1993, they transferred him to ÒHeliodromÓ camp, near Mostar. On 17 August 1993, he was forced to carry wounded HVO soldiers and serve as a Òlive shieldÓ. Other detainees, forced to do the same, saw Elvir wounded in the arm. Nothing has been heard about him since.)
16. HAJDAREVIC, ZLATKO (son of Hasan), born in 1995 in Stolac. Resident of Stolac;
(On 24 October 1993, he was taken from ÒGabelaÓ camp to Gorica near Stolac, and forced to repair a 35 KW pylon. He was killed while working under enforcement.)
17. HANIC, DENIJEL (son of Omer), born in 1955 in Aladinici. Resident of the same village;
(On 9 June 1993, he was taken to Grabovine, Capljina municipality, for medical treatment. On 12 June 1993, he was dismissed from hospital and arrested by HVO in Capljina on the same day. He was released after several hours of questioning. Killed by a blunt object, on the same day, near ÒMogorjeloÓ hotel. Names of murderers have not been confirmed until today.)
18. HODZIC, ZULFO (son of Mehmed), born in 1950 on Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(Although he had been a mental patient for twenty years, he was arrested on 13 July 1993 and taken to ÒDrteljÓ camp. On 21 July 1993, he was transferred to ÒHeliodromÓ. In August 1993, he was hospitalized in Bijeli Brijeg in Mostar, and was killed during the month. According to some, he was buried in a cemetery in Balinovac. He was forcefully taken from his home by Marinko Raguz, aka Migo; Ivo (son of Fabijan) Raguz; Dragan (son of Vinko) Palamenta. A tank was driven at the time, and Mile (son of Stojan) Boskovic, was sitting on it.)
19. Kaplan, Salko (son of Ibro), born in 1931 in Pjesivac. Resident of the same village;
(He was arrested on 2 August 1993 and taken to the Bone Disease Hospital in Stolac. He spent a day and a night there, and was subjected to savage torture. Marinko Raic, aka Migo, born in and resident of Borojevici, was particularly cruel. a day later, he was moved to ÒDreteljÓ camp. He died of the wounds inflicted during detention, on 15 August 1993. He was buried in Kapic cemetery in Pocitelj.)
20. KAPLAN, SENIDA (daughter of Hamzo), born in 1975 in Stolac. Resident of Pjesivac;
(On 13 July 1993, HVO soldiers deported all the inhabitants of Kaplan street in Pjesivac to Blagaj. When they told Senida Kaplan to go with them, she asked why. She was then killed by machine gun fire at her doorstep. The murderer was Drago Bunoza, aka Jastreb, resident of Capljina municipality. She was buried on the local cemetery by villagers hiding in nearby villages.)
21. LJEVIC, HUSO (son of Muharem), born in 1948 in Aladinici. Resident of Aladinici;
(HVO soldiers arrested him on 21 June 1993 and took him to ÒDrteljÓ camp. In early August, he was transferred to ÒHeliodromÓ near Mostar. HVO soldiers forced him to serve as a Òlive shieldÓ in Santica street in Mostar. He was killed there. He was buried in Mortar.)
22. MARIC, CAMIL (son of Juso), born in 1958 in Aladinici. Resident of Aladinici;
(HVO soldiers arrested him on 2o August 1993 and took him to ÒGabelaÓ camp. One day, he was taken for questioning. Every trace has been lost since. Another detainee saw him during questioning. He was tortured, beaten, and with blood-covered face.)
23. OBRADOVIC, EMIR (son of Hajdar), born in 1965 in Borojevici. Resident of Borojevici;
(On 17 September 1993, he was transferred from ÒHeliodromÓ camp, where he had been detained. He was forced to serve as so-called live shield on the Boulevard in Mostar. He was killed there. His body was exchanged and buried in Blagaj more than six months later.)
24. OBRADOVIC, FEHIM (son of Salko), born in 1939 in Borojevici. Resident of Borojevici.;
(He was arrested on 13 July 1993 and detained in the Crnici primary school. On the same day, he was transported by truck, together with other detainees, on the Stolac-Krusevo-Svitava road. On the road between Krusevo and Svitava, Capljina municipality, Serif Hajdarevic jumped of the truck and fled. HVO soldiers forced Fehim Obradovic to search for Serif Hajdarevic through the forest. He was then killed. The body remained on the murder site.)
25. OBRADOVIC, MUSTAFA (son of Salko), born in 1974 in Borojevici. Resident of Borojevici;
(He was killed on 2 October 1993 in ÒGabelaÓ camp, in front of detention hangar No.1. The murderer was Bozidar Previsic, aka Boko; in front of a number of detainees, he took a gun from a guard, and shot and killed Mustafa Obradovic.)
26. OBRADOVIC, SUAD (son of Halil), born in 1965 in Borojevici. Resident of Borojevici;
(HVO soldiers arrested him on 25 September 1993, and took him to the Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He was tortures, kicked and hit with the blunt objects on all parts of body. He died of the injuries suffered , on the same day. He was buried in the cemetery in Stolac. His murderer was Dragan (son of Frano) Kresic, born in and resident of Borojevici.
27. PAJO, ENIS (son of Jusuf), born in 1971 in Poplat. Resident of Poplat;
(He was killed on 17 September 1993, in Santica street, Mostar. HVO soldiers forced hi to march in front of them with a wooden gun, towards RB&H Army lines.)
28. PALATA, EDIN (son of Mustafa), born in 1974 in Orasje, Rotimlja. Resident of Orasje;
(He was killed on 14 July 1993, in front of the family house of Omer Bucman. The murder was committed by HVO soldiers, so-called ÒBozanoviÓ, at the same time and in the same way as those of the members of the Bucman family.)
29. PALATA, HUMA (daughter of Hasan), born in 1952 in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(She was killed on 14 July 1993, in front of the family house of Omer Bucman in the village of Orasje. The murder was committed by the same persons and in the same way as above.)
30. PALATA, MUSTAFA (son of Alija), born in 1948 in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(He was killed on 14 July 1993, same as above. Murderers and murder same as above.)
31.PEHLIC, FATA (daughter of Alija), born in 1920 in Oplicici. Resident of Rotimlja;
(She was killed on 13 or 14 July 1993, near her family house. Her murderers were probably HVO soldiers known as ÒBozanoviÓ. The body remained at the murder site.)
32. PEHLIC, MUJO (son of Alija), born in 1945 in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(He was mentally retarded. Following the expulsion of Bosniaks from Rotimlja to Blagaj, Mujo Pehlic remained in Rotimlja. He was killed by Ivo Raguz, aka Bogara, and Vinko Peric, both from Rotimlja.)
33. PEHLIC, IBRO (son of Alija), born in 1947 in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(He was mentally retarded, brother of Mujo Pehlic. Both were killed at the same site and in the same way. Murderers were Ivo Raguz, aka Bogara, and Vinko Peric, both from Rotimlja.)
34. PUZIC, ENVER (son of Mujo), born in 1971 in Stolac. Resident of Stolac;
(HVO soldiers arrested him in Poplat, and took him to Capljina. He was later transferred to ÒHelidromÓ camp. He was often forced serve as a Òlive shieldÓ. He was killed on one of those occasions in Santica street, Mostar. His body never recovered.)
35. RAZIC, IBRO (son of Ahmet), born in 1939 in Borojevici. Resident of Borojevici;
(He was arrested on 25 September 1993, and taken to the Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He was savagely tortured for a day, and was latter transferred to ÒGabelaÓ camp; he continued to be subjected to torture, and died on 26 September 1993. His torture, which caused death, was participated by: Nikica Obradovic, aka Hegilo; Dragan Kresic; Ante (son of Marko) Kresic, Josip Kresic, Mirko Kresic, Mladen Kresic, all from Borojevici; Vide Markovic from Prenj, village of Dolumi.)
36. REPAK, EMIR (son of Mustafa), born in 1965 in Stolac. Resident of Stolac;
(on August 4, 1993, he was arrested b y Bozo Pavlovic, HVO commander in Stolac at the time. He was taken to the Stolac Bone Diseases Hospital. He was savagely tortured for a day and a night, and on August 5, 1993, he was transferred to ÒDreteljÓ camp. His torture continued in the camp. He was fatally injured in the head and died on the same day. The following policemen were particularly cruel in torturing Repak: Kreso Raic and Vide Palameta, born in and residents of Borojevici. His body was buried in Modric, Capljina municipality.)
37. RUPAR, MILA (daughter of Lazar), born in 19__. Resident of Stolac;
(She was murdered in summer 1992 in her home, located ion the Str. of 25 October in Stolac. The murder was executed by fire arms from a short distance. The killer was Pazin Zdravko.)
38. SAFRO, HAMZO (son of Salko), born in 1941 in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(he was killed in mid-July 1993, while trying to escape towards Blagaj. There has been no information regarding his body.)
39. SAFRO, SANEL (son of Hamzo), born in 19__ in Rotimlja. Resident of Rotimlja;
(He was the son of Hamza Safro. He was killed at the same time, in the same way, and by the same perpetrators as his father, as they were together. There has been no information regarding his body either.)
40. TUKA, ZIHNO (son of Himzo), born in 1972 in Bitunja. Resident of Bitunja;
(HVO soldiers arrested him in Rotimlja and took him to ÒDrteljÓ. He was moved to ÒHeliodromÓ a day later. On 26 September 1993, he was forcefuly placed in a Òlive shieldÓ in Rastani, Mostar municipality. He was killed there. There has been no information regarding his body.)
41. ZUJO, MIRSAD (son of Hasan), born in 1968 in Prenj. Resident of Prenj;
(On 10 October 1993, in the ÒGabelaÓ camp, he was taken outside the hangar by Nikica Pehar, from Caljevo, Capljina municipality. There has been no trace of him since then.)
42. VUKOVIC, LJUBICA, born in 19__. Resident of Stolac;
(She was murdered in summer 1992, in her home, located in the street of 25 October in Stolac. The murder was executed from fire arms from a short distance. The killer was Pazin Zdravko.)
43. DJULIC, RAHA (daughter of Salko), born in 1907. Resident of Pjesivac;
44. FILANDRA, DERVISA (daughter of Tahir), born in 1931. Resident of Crnici, village of Jasoc;
45. HANIC, NUSRETA (daughter of Hasan), born in 1938. Resident of Aladinici;
46. HODZIC, MUNITA (daughter of Ibro), born in 1912. Resident of Pjesivac;
47. HODZIC, ZAHIDA (daughter of Ibro), born in 1923. Resident of Stolac;
48. HUMACKIC, OMER (son of Meho), born in 1907. Resident of Pjesivac;
49. KAPLAN, MUNITA (daughter of Ahmet), born in 1912. Resident of Pjesivac;
50. OBRADOVIC, FATA (daughter of), born in 1926. Resident of Stolac;
51. SETKA, MUNITA (daughter of Salko), born in 1905. Resident of Crnici.
(Persons listed from 43 to 51 lost their lives during the passage from Buna to Blagaj, after the criminals forced them by gunfire to move towards Blagaj. Some of the bodies were recovered much later, and buried in cemeteries in Blagaj, Gnojnica, and Dracevica.)
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4559/StolacKilledandM.htm
Robert the 'erbert
Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994)
by Stolac Municipality
DESTRUCTION OF CULTURAL AND HISTORIC HERITAGE
ARCHITECTURAL MONUMENTS AND ENSEMBLES
Mosques
1. Sultan SelimÕs Mosque in Stolac (EmperorÕs Mosque). built in 1519, and considered
to be one of the oldest mosques in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The base is square, with
sides of 16.55 x 9.25 meters on inner edges of the building. The minaret, a stone
prism, is 126 meters high. Walls of the porch and inner walls are decorated with
flower patterns. The wall towards kibla and side walls are decorated with rich lewhas
-- black on light blue background -- with excerpts from QurÕan in Arabic. The
architectural ensemble includes a courtyard with a fountain, part of a cemetery with
very old tombstones, gasulhana (quarters for ritual bathing of the dead), and a line
of shops facing tepa (town center, old market area), which includes office of the old
Muslim Community Board.
The mosque was registered as k.o. Stolac No. 1186, k.c. 2/219, surface 292 meters.
HVO soldiers burnt and mined the mosque in the early summer of 1993, damaging it
considerably. In early august 1993, during a systematic destruction of Islamic
architectural heritage, the mosque was mined again and torn to the ground. At the
same time, all attached facilities were destroyed. The construction material left
behind was later moved away.
At the time of the burning, HVO soldiers were accommodated in a nearby primary
school. Some of them were Marjan (son of Nicola) Prce, Nikola (son of Vinko)
Vojinovic, Zdravko (son of Ljubo) Pazin.
2. Mosque of Hadzi-Salih Buro, later renamed Mosque of Ali-Pasa Rizvanbegovic in
Stolac (Podgradska mosque) was built in 1732-33, in finely polished carved stone.,
and rebuilt in 1812-113. Sides of the interior of the mosque are 18.65 x 5.53 meters.
There were three shops in the basement of the mosque, with arched doorways and
entrances facing the market area. The prism-shaped stone minaret next to the mosque
was 18 meters high. Windows were shadowed by stone coverings, made as complex
geometrical decorations. The mosque was registered as k.o. Stolac No. 151, k.c.
1/487, surface of 250 meters. The mosque was burnt at 11 oÕclock, in the evening of
28 July 1993, and mined on 8 August 1993. It was torn to the ground, and the
remaining construction material was trucked away. According to available testimonies,
in addition to Marijan Prce, Nikola Vojinovic, and Zdravko Pazin, Rudolf Colic and
Zdenko Beno, both from Stolac, also took part in mining the mosque.
3. Mosque of Hadzi-Alija Hadzisalihovic (Mosque in the part of town called Cuprija)
was built in 1936. There were a well and a fountain in the mosque courtyard. The
stone minaret was octagonal and 15 meters high. The mosque was registered as k.o.
Stolac No. 1182, k.c. 4/109, surface of 127 meters.
It was burnt on 27 July 1993, and mined on 2 August 1993. After it was torn down, the
construction material was removed.
Marijan Prce, Nikola Vojinovic and Zdravko Pazin were accomplices in the burning.
4. Mosque of Ismail-Kapetan Saric (the mosque of Uzinovici) was built in 1741, of
broken stone, with four-sided roof, covered in stone shingles. Walls of the mosque
were richly decorated. Recent research discovered two layers of wall paintings -- one
from 18 century, with rich flower arabesque from in and around the mihrab, on inner
walls, sofas, window niches, door-posts and lintels; even wooden pillars and beams on
sofas and mahfil were decorated with carved and painted styled tendrils -- and the
second layer from 19th century, with motifs of vases and flowers. Above the mihrab
and in the corners of walls, there were beautiful nesh-talik inscriptions of names:
Allah, Muhammed, Abu-Bekr, Omer, Osman, Ali, Hasan, Husein.
The architectural ensemble of the mosque included a well, a fountain, a school,. a
cemetery, destroyed over time, and old cupress trees in the courtyard. The mosque was
repaired and reconstructed several times: mimber was moved in the mosque in Pjesivac
in 1974, and minaret was dismantled and reconstructed on a mosque in Crnici. In 1990,
extensive work was initiated on conversation, reconstruction, and revival of the
mosque complex. In the summer of 1993, the mosque was burnt and torn down. The
burning was done by: Marijan Prce, Nikola Vojinovic, Zdravko Pazin, and others.
5. The mosque in Crnici (Aladinici) near Stolac, built in 1939-40, and expanded and
reconstructed in 1964. It was registered as k.o. Crnici, No. 40, k.c. 553/5, surface
of 400 meters. In early July 1993, the minaret was damaged by machine gun fire by
Perutina, Ante Perutina, and Bosko Prce, aka Boskan. It was destroyed in July 1993.
It was burnt on 14 July 1993, and mined and torn down on 21 July 1993. According to
available testimonies, this was done by, among others, Bosko Perutina, aka Bokan,
Bosko Prce, aka Boskan, Ante (son of Marko) Perutina.
6. The mosque in Pjesivac, near Stolac, built in 1973, registered as No. 61, k.c.
665/3, torn to the ground. It was burnt at the end of July 1993, and then mined in
August 1993.
7. The mosque in Borojevici, near Stolac, built after 1968, destroyed completely.
8. The mosque in the village of Lokve, in Dubrave, near Stolac, destroyed completely.
9. The mosque in the village of Rotimlja, near Stolac, torn down.
9. The mosque in the village of Oplicici, near Stolac, destroyed.
The mosque in the village of Prenj, near Stolac, burnt at the end of July 1993, and
blown up in the night in the mid-August 1993.
ORTHODOX CHURCHES
1. Orthodox Church of Holy Assumption of Christ, in Stolac, built in 1870, with a
bell tower on the entrance. A rosette with a six-pointed star decorated the top of
the bell tower. A valuable iconostas from 18 century was in the church. The church
was devastated in the summer of 1992, by HVO soldiers, who came in vehicles with
Capljina number plates.
MEKTEBS (ISLAMIC SCHOOLS)
1. Mekteb with the mosque of Ismail-Kapetan Saric. Its reconstruction started in
1991. It was destroyed with the mosque.
2. Mekteb in the village of Osanici, built in 1925, burnt in July 1993.
3. Mekteb with the mosque in Crnici, built in 1897, destroyed with the mosque.
RESIDENTIAL ENSEMBLES AND BUILDINGS
1. Begovina residential ensemble, with houses, accompanying out-houses and other
buildings (it included five overnight houses, one school, three housing facilities,
etc.). It was built by the river Bregava, and belonged to the Rizvanbegovic family.
Bregovina was built at the end of 19th century and, in view of its architectural and
historic value, it was the most significant housing unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Bregovina was burnt to the ground in mid-July 1993. According to available
testimonies of its destruction, it was done by Rudolf Colic with a group of HVO
soldiers. The commander of a HVO unit in Bregovina at the time was Djuro (son of
Ilija) Prce, aka Djuka.
2. Djul-HanumaÕs konak (lodge) in Stolac (MustajbegÕs lodge), a three-story building
with courtyards and accompanying out-houses, by the river, opposite Bregovina. It was
an architectural ensemble, joined by a small bridge, built in 1835. Its architectural
value, the value of wood carvings and other interior decorations and its location,
made it one of the most significant examples of Islamic housing architecture in
Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was burnt and torn down in mid-July 1993.
3. Behmenluk residential ensemble, with houses of the Behmen family. The most
valuable was a three-story house of Hadzi-Salih Behmen, built in 19 century. It was
destroyed on 25 July 1993 by incendiary materials.
4. Ada residential ensemble, which included gardens, houses, courtyards, and
out-houses. Home to families Jasarbegovic and Ljubovic, built mainly in 18 century,
with main features of Islamic architecture. It was completely destroyed by fire
ignited by phosphorous materials. Burning and destruction were done on 16 July 1993.
5. House of Ismail-Kapetan Saric, an one-storey building, by the street and facing
the EmperorÕs mosque, built in 1734-35. It was the most beautiful housing building in
Stolac and one of the most beautiful in Bosnia and Herzegovina, It was changed when
one part was separated and converted into an art-gallery. It was burnt and destroyed
on 26 July 1993.
6. House of the Turkovic family, in Zagrad street, a three-storey building with a
prominent oriel on the highest floor. It was built on a slope and looked like its
natural part. It was burnt.
7. House of Ajisa Rizvanbegovic, in the Cuprija quarter, built in 18 century. Its
shape, with open wooden porches on the ground and on the first floor, placed it in a
group of few preserved Bosniak houses of that type. It was burnt and completely
destroyed in mid-July 1993.
8. Zujina (SaricÕs) house, on the right bank above the river, in Cuprija quarter. A
stone building covered with stone shingles, built at the end of 18 century. It was a
beautiful example of houses in Stolac, with a complex division of space. The interior
was decorated by numerous wood carvings. New owners began works on its reconstruction
before the war. In mid-July 1993, it was burnt by phosphorous material.
9. Mufticevina residential ensemble, from 18 century. It was burnt in mid-July 1993.
10. Urban unit surrounding the mosque of Ismail-Kapetan Saric, Uzinovica street, from
18 century, with numerous building of value to its ambiance. It was destroyed. All
buildings of architectural or historic value were burnt. Numerous other building
owned by Bosniaks were also destroyed.
11. Cuprija urban unit, developed around the mosque in Cuprija (the bridge), on both
sides of Bregava river, with numerous buildings of individual, architectural and
historic value, built over three centuries, was also destroyed. All buildings of
Islamic architecture were burnt and torn down.
12. Podgrad urban unit, developed around the podgrad mosque, often called Mala
Carsija (the small town center) or Mejdan, in view of a large number of small shops
and crafts surrounding a square near the mosque, and buildings of value to its
ambiance, was also damaged. A large number of the most valuable buildings was burnt
or torn down.
13. Zagrad urban unit, a street on the southern slope, under the medieval fortress
Vidoski grad, with numerous buildings adding to the ambiance, was considerably
damaged, since all buildings with features of Islamic architecture were burnt or torn
down.
URBAN ENSEMBLES AND MONUMENTS
1. Stara tepa, the oldest square (market), an area in front of the EmperorÕs mosque
courtyard. Carsija, the market area, developed around it, with shops and offices,
including the office of the Muslim Community Board of Stolac. It represented an urban
ensemble of cultural and historic value. Tepica, a small building, used for scales
and measurements, built in 17 century -- the only other existed in Mostar -- was in
the center. All the buildings of the unit were torn down in July 1993.
2. Silhadar Husein PasaÕs konak in tepa, the oldest lodge in Stolac, built in early
17 century, in carved stone, with clear medieval Mediterranean shapes and a seal of
Islamic architecture. It was destroyed in mid-July 1993, together with Tepa.
3. Hamam (bath), built in early 17 century, one of few buildings of the kind
preserved in B&H, a highest-category monument of architectural heritage. Torn down
after the expulsion of Bosniaks from Stolac.
4. Hotel Bregava, built in 1979, designed by Zlatko Ugljen, a distinguished
architect. The most successful application of traditional Stolac design in modern
architecture. Burnt in 1992.
5. Gradska kafana (city cafe), housing and office block, build in 1986, designed by
Emir Buzaljko. A significant attempt to return to traditional architecture, and the
specific features of Stolac. Destroyed in July 1993.
6. Nova tepa (new market), a business complex, with a new market, built in 1990,
designed by Emir Buzaljko. An addition to the EmperorÕs mosque complex, with a new
market, which was the most significant building of the unit. Burnt and destroyed in
summer 1993.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4559/StolacMosques.htm
CRIMES IN STOLAC MUNICIPALITY (1992-1994)
By Stolac Municipality
MOBILE HERITAGE
LIBRARIES
PUBLIC COLLECTIONS
1. Library of the Muslim Community Board -- Stolac -- a valuable collection of
printed and manuscript documents and books, as well forty manuscripts from 17-19
century. The library was destroyed in mid-July 1993, along with the Tepa unit and
offices of the Muslim Community Board.
2. Library of the EmperorÕs Mosque -- tens of manuscripts in Bosnian, Arabic,
Turkish, and Persian, from 17-19 century. Destroyed together with the EmperorÕs
Mosque.
3. Library of the Podgradska Mosque -- tens of manuscript books and documents from
previous centuries. All the works were destroyed in a fire set to destroy the mosque.
PRIVATE COLLECTIONS
In summer 1993 several family collections of document, manuscript books and valuable
printed books were destroyed. There is only partial information on the contents of
these collections. We can list collections of the following families: Behmen,
Mahmutcehajic, Mehmedbasic, Rizvanbegovic.
We have complete information on the manuscript books from the Mehmedbasic family
collection, which was destroyed (Annual of GBH).
CARPETS AND RUGS
PUBLIC COLLECTIONS
1. EmperorÕs mosque collection of 50 carpets and 30 rugs of different sizes, styles
of make, and age. From the artistic and historic point of view, this was one of the
most valuable collections in B&H, since it included carpets several centuries old.
This collection was destroyed with the Mosque.
2. Podgradska Mosque collection of 30 carpets, most over a century old. all the
carpets were burnt in the night of 28 July 1993, when the mosque was burnt. On this
occasion, 25 local and Oriental valuable rugs were also destroyed.
3. Mosque in Cuprija collection of 20 carpets and 12 rugs, most over a century old.
The entire collection was destroyed with the mosque, on 27 July 1993.
PRIVATE COLLECTIONS
Several hundreds of carpets and rugs, of international artistic and historic value,
were destroyed in family houses and urban units (Ada, Begovina, Behmenluk, Cuprija,
Podgrad, Uzinovici, Zagrad, etc.) as well as in villages of Osanici, Borojevici,
Poplat, Crnici, Prenj, Rotimlja, Pjesivac, etc.
Only more than a century carpets and rugs were listed here. Ways and places of make
of each of them make them items of special value to the Bosniak national culture.
LEWHAS
PUBLIC COLLECTIONS
1. EmperorÕs Mosque collection of 8 portable lewhas (artistic inscriptions in Arabic
with holy text) from 18 and 19 century, made in ink on parchment, with different
styles, and some illuminated in color and gold. All were destroyed in summer 1993,
when the mosque was burnt and mined for the first time.
At the same time, about 20 al fresco lewhas, probably from 1788, the year when the
mosque was reconstructed, were destroyed as well. Lewhas were written in rich
nesh-talik script.
2. Lewhas in Podgradska Mosque -- 5 lewhas from 19 century; judging from the style,
probably all done by the same artist. Excerpts from QurÕan were written in gold, in
nesh scripts, on black. All were destroyed in fire set in 28 July 1993.
3. The Mosque in Cuprija collection of 4 lewhas from 19 century. Destroyed on 27 July
1993, when the mosque was burnt.
4. Wall lewhas in the mosque of Ismail-Kapetan Saric, in al fresco. Names of Allah,
Muhammed, Ebu-Bekr, Omer, Osman, Ali, Hasan, and Husein were written in large
nesh-talik script, and were parts of rich wall decorations of the mosque. The fire
set by HVO soldiers using phosphorous material, destroyed even the wall plaster.
4. Collection of the mosque in Crnici, 3 lewhas of modern make (early 20 century).
They were destroyed on 14 July 1993, when the mosque was burnt.
PRIVATE COLLECTION
The destroyed houses of Behmen, Hrle, Mahmutcehajic, Mehmedbasic, Muftic,
Rizvanbegovic and Turkovic families, as well as others, contained about one hundred
lewhas of artistic and historic value. All were destroyed with the houses.
ARTIFACTS WITH EMBROIDERY AND LACE
The destroyed houses in Ada, Begovina, Behmenluk, Cuprija, Uzinovici, Podgrad,
Zagrad, as well as houses in villages of Osanici, Borojevici, Poplat, Crnici, Prenj,
Rotimlja, Pjesivac, etc., contained several hundred artifacts (scarves, shawls,
window curtains, items of clothing, etc.) decorated with hand-made embroidery of
great artistic and historic value. All were destroyed with the houses. The ones
listed here were only the ones over a century old, embroidered with gold, silver, or
silk thread, on hand-woven cloth, and which represented cultural heritage of special
importance.
At least one hundred items made of lace, hand-made in a particular way with silk
thread (keranje), over a century old and representing cultural heritage of artistic
and historic value, were also destroyed.
PAINTINGS
PUBLIC COLLECTIONS
1. Gallery of prints and paintings by Branko Sotra in the house of Saric, containing
paintings, prints, and documents illustrating life and work of Branko Sotra, a
painter, was destroyed on 29 July 1993.
2. A collection of paintings in the ÒRenaissanceÓ Muslim Cultural Society, containing
at least 50 valuable paintings by Bosnian painters, was destroyed in the mid-July
1993.
PRIVATE COLLECTIONS
At least a hundred paintings of great artistic and historic value, such as those by
Robert Kvasina, M. Rizvanbegovic, M. Hrle, Muradif Cerimovic, Djordjo Kurilic, Emir
Buzaljko, Mersad Berber, and others, were destroyed in houses of Behmen, Buzaljko,
Mahmutcehajic, Hrle, Turkovic, Mehmedbasic, Kohnic, Dizdar, and other families.
OLD FURNITURE AND HOUSEHOLD ITEMS
1. A large wall-mounted clock with pendulum, over a century old, was destroyed with
the EmperorÕs Mosque.
2. There was a large wall-mounted clock with pendulum, over a century old, in the
Podgradska Mosque. It was destroyed with the mosque on 28 July 1993.
Various furniture and household items of value, considered a part of cultural
heritage under regulations of article 1 of the Hague Convention, were destroyed in
houses in Ada, Behmenluk, Cuprija, Podgrad, Uzinovici, Zagrad. etc. tens of
wardrobes, built-in treasuries, chests, wall and ceiling engravings, sofas, brick and
tile fire places, made in 18 and 19 century, were all destroyed. The artistic value
of destroyed furniture gave it importance for both Bosnian and international
heritage.
At least 20 copper and brass mangalas, hand-made and richly decorated, made in 18 and
19 century, were also destroyed.
METAL ARTIFACTS
Various metal valuables were destroyed in houses in Stolac and neighboring villages.
tens of pieces of hand-made golden, silver, or metal jewelry were destroyed or
stolen. At least 100 pieces of over a century old artistically decorated personal
weaponry (swords, daggers, rifles, etc.) were also destroyed.
ANTIQUE DISHES OF ARTISTIC VALUE
Hundreds of pieces of glass, copper, porcelain, and silver dishes from 18 and 19
century were destroyed in houses of Ada, Behemluk, Begovina, Cuprija, Podgrad, and
Zagrad. Copper dishes were mainly made locally, and different plates, jugs, and bowls
were of special value. Glass, porcelain, and silver pieces were mainly from the East,
or were brought from Dubrovnik, Venice, Vienna, Prague, and Budapest.
ANTIQUE INSCRIPTIONS
Inscriptions on old buildings of Stolac, mainly from 16 to 19 century, were mainly in
Arabic and Turkish, in Arabic script, and had both historical and artistic value. The
following inscriptions were destroyed in summer 1993:
1. Inscription above the entrance of the EmperorÕs Mosque, in black ink on lime, made
in 1519, when the mosque was built.
2. Inscription above the entrance of the EmperorÕs Mosque, in black ink or lime, in
small nesh-talik script in Turkish, made in 1788/89, when the mosque was
reconstructed.
3. Tens of tombstones in the courtyard of the EmperorÕs Mosque, including 27 with
engraved inscriptions -- the oldest one from 1660, and the most recent from 1878.
4. Inscriptions above the entrance of Podgradska Mosque, from 1732/33, engraved in
stone block of 20 x 28 cm, in Turkish.
5. Inscription above the entrance of Podgradska Mosque, from 1812/13, engraved in
stone, in beautiful nesh-talik script in Turkish. It was framed with parallel ribbons
and flowers engraved between them.
6. Inscription above the entrance of Podgradska Mosque, from 1888/89, engraved in
stone block of 22 x 32 cm, in beautiful nesh script, in Turkish.
7. Inscriptions of three tombstones in the courtyard of Podgradska Mosque, from 19
century.
8. Inscription above the entrance of the mosque in Uzinovici, from 1741, engraved in
stone, in verse in Turkish, in nesh script.
9. Inscription above the entrance of the mosque in Uzinovici, from 1791/92, in black
ink on the wall, in small nesh-talik script, in verse in Turkish.
10. Inscription on a well in the courtyard of the mosque in Uzinovici, engraved in
plain nesh script in 1810.
11. Inscription above the entrance of the Mosque in Cuprija, from 1765, on lime
plaster, in verse in Turkish, in beautiful nesh-talik script.
12. Inscriptions in the interior of DjulhanumaÕs house, from 1856, carved in wood
(three inscriptions).
13. Inscriptions carved in wood in a room of the house of Izet Rizvanbegovic, from
1840.
14. Inscriptions on a wooden pillar in the courtyard of the house of Murat
Rizvanbegovic, from 1860.
15. Inscription above the entrance to the Saric house, from 1734, engraved in a small
stone plaque.
16. Inscription on a wooden built-in treasury in the house of Zulfo Mahmutcehajic, in
ink on wood, in nesh script in Turkish.
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/4559/StolacMobileHeritage.htm
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010502...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
> SAS investigator asks why gangsters and ethnic warriors live freely in
> Stolac, Bosnia
>
> Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
> Wednesday May 2, 2001
> The Guardian
>
> A senior British army officer has called on the international community to
bring
> Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
And with perfect timing to add to anti-Croat hysteria.
> Lieutenant-Colonel Hector Gullan of the Parachute Regiment and the SAS led an
> undercover investigation into the violent intimidation of refugees trying
> to return
> to Stolac, in south-eastern Bosnia, in 1998 and 1999.
Yes, but why bring this up NOW?
> His report, delivered to the international authorities in Bosnia, called for
the
> immediate arrest of 22 people suspected of violence, extortion and
> intimidation since
> the war, and for crimes against humanity during the expulsion of Bosnian
> Muslims from
> the area during the war in the republic in 1993.
Strong element in truth in what is being said above, but his silence on
exactly comparable events and what was being done to returnee Croats between
97-99 in central Bosnian towns is absolutely DEAFENING!
This immediately discredits him as a partial observer, unless he was
specifically assigned to Stolac and had absolutely no knowledge of other
events. If this is so, then why doesn't someone who was assigned to Travnik
or Bugojno speak up? And if they did, would it be published in a major UK
paper in the current atmosphere. In 1998, 7 Croat returnees to Travnik were
killed in bomb attacks.
> "Until those that perpetrated these appalling crimes, and who continue to rule
the
> Stolac municipality by fear, are brought to account in the courts - either in
> Sarajevo
What a twat. Criminal cases (if we put the Hague aside) are processed in
municipal courts, and Stolac cases would be processed in Stolac itself or
Mostar. A Sarajevo trial is wishful thinking on his part, comparable to a
trial for an African-American in front of a Ku-Klux-Klan grand wizard.
> Mosques, Catholic and Orthodox churches stood close by. But during the war,
> and even
> afterwards, every sacred and secular building belonging to Muslims was blown
up,
> including three medieval mosques and 2,000 homes. The aim was to prevent
> non-Croats
> ever returning.
Correct. The Muslims were expelled at the beginning of August 1993, as Croat
refugees from Central Bosnia and northern Hercegovina started pouring into
the town as early as May of 1993. No question whatsoever that crimes of
ethnic cleansing against Muslims and their property were committed. But
thankfully, NO massacres.
> The town is still in ruins, and the ostensible nationalism has become a cover
for
> hanging on to what was looted in the war, and present-day earnings from
> running guns
> to Kosovo, cigarettes to Italy, and stolen cars through the Balkans.
The town is near the border with Republika Srpska, so there is a lot of
trade.
> Stark concrete crosses dot the valleys - with little pretence to religious
> significance. They are intended to mark territory, and keep out Muslims.
It's over and no one can put the Humpty Dumpty back together. The Muslims
from Stolac are in Croat houses in east Mostar, Jablanica and Konjic. The
rest are in Norway and in USA. Croats expelled by Muslims from Travnik,
Vares, Kakanj, Bugojno, Jablanica and Konjic (I guess this escaped the
attention of the narrator) now occupy Muslim homes in west Mostar, Stolac
and Capljina. It's as simple as that.
> While a few war-crimes suspects are in hiding, many of those accused of being
> torturers at the Dretelj, Heliodrome and Gabela concentration camps are still
at
> large.
It's a bit of a stretch calling Gabela a "camp".
> Farida (not her real name) will return soon from Mostar, despite her fear of
doing
> so.
Nah, she's only going back for a few months to regain the ownership title
over her property. After that, it's sell up and adios amigos. Same story all
over BiH.
> She and her family were among those driven out in 1993. She carried her
> mother on her
> back for several miles in the terrible heat of July, with Croat snipers
> shooting over
> the heads of those fleeing, to spur them on.
They had it better thatn Croat kids in Vitez who were routinely sniped down,
Sarajevo style.
> On this death march from Buna to Blagaj,
How's it a death march if they are shooting sporadically over their heads?
Unsuccessful attempt at a Holocaust analogy.
> Fuad (his name has also been changed) describes Dretelj concentration camp
> that same
> month. Crammed into a metal-roofed hangar in one of the hottest areas of
> Europe, some
> prisoners died in the oven, others went mad. The guards sprayed bullets
> through the
> door, for fun.
I don't know about the shootings, but they were robbed, weren't well fed and
some were beaten up. A Muslim report on Dretelj cites three Muslim HVO
guards as being the worst offenders. Bizarre.
> "The victims are exaggerating," says the current mayor of Stolac, Zdravko
Guzman.
> "It's time to forget about the past, and turn instead to the future.'
That's it dude! You tell 'em. Us Croats are told that bringing up injustices
from the past is nationalistic and backward. Good on ya for showing it back
in their face.
> A member of the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) which wants to
> break from
> Bosnia, he laughs when I ask if it would help reconciliation if Croats
> apologised for
> destroying the Muslims' homes and mosques: "Why should we apologise?
> Perhaps someone
> should apologise to us."
Somehow they always manage to find THE dumbest Croat in town.
> "The people we would like to see arrested" said Harry Leefe, head of the UN
> refugee
> agency in Mostar, "are the serious criminals, the ones who organised the
> concentration camps, the torture, the rape camps; the ones who forced women
and
> children to walk through minefields".
So why did the SFOR run away last time when shit hit the fan in Stolac, back
in 1998? They copped a hiding back then.
> • A bomb yesterday in Vitez - a central Bosnian town dominated by the
> hardline HDZ -
> destroyed the office of the Social Democratic Party, which leads Bosnia's
> multi-ethnic government.
Yeah, like last time, when a "moderate" Croat's car was bombed. Croat
"extremists" were accused. Later, it turned out that he had insured his
Mercedes for 200,000 DM just 48 hours before the "attack".
> Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2001
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/article/0,2763,481619,00.html
Yugo?
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> You're not from Stolac, are you? Do you know the history of this town?
>
> War Crimes in Stolac
>
> The Complete Text of Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994). 84 pp. :
> ill., maps [no date of publication indicated;acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
Muslim source - therefore disregarded, using the same criteria that you
apply to Croat sources.
> The following units of the Croatian Army were especially trained for the
> conquest of Stolac and were dispatched to Stolac:
>
> -the Split brigade; -the Ploce brigade; -the First Guard Brigade “Tigers”
> from Zagreb; -”Wolves of Korcula” brigade from the island of Korcula;
> -units from Metkovic; -a number of small units from different parts of the
> Republic of Croatia. Officers of the Croatian Intelligence Service (SIS)
> were organized to act throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
WTF? Don't flatter yourself. So, Republic of Croatia sent in 4 brigades
(several thousand men) in a non-battle zone? Nah, no Croat-Muslim fighting
took place in Stolac. The ABiH brigade was disarmed peacefully, and the
members taken to Dretelj POW camp. A crime of ethnic cleansing was committed
because women and children were expelled.
Robbie, it's relatively easy to type in "Stolac" into a search engine and do
a copy/paste job. Try running more detailed searches on "Konjic",
"Jablanica", "Kakanj", "Bugojno", "Travnik", "Vares", "Fojnica", "Kraljeva
Sutjeska", "Doljani", "Uzdol", "Grabovica", "Krizancevo Selo", "Zenica" and
see what comes up.
Darko Peric
Let's see: back in 1977 my Uncle Andjelko was refused post-secondary
education unless he either joined the communist party or became an UDBA
agent.
In 1977 my grandfather was still refused a pension for the 14th year in
a row.
These are just small examples, I could give bigger ones. But these
small examples just go to show how the "socialist paradise" really wasn't
what it was portrayed to be.
Darko Peric
> > >
> > >
> > > > As long as your English governments keep your collective
pro-Chetnik
> > > noses out of our politics.
> >
> > > We'd love to, but your *politics* are a disgrace which have led to
murder,
>
>
> > Much like English politics....
>
> No such thing Darko. The English have no political representation in the
UK in an
> English executive only via the British parliament unlike the Northern
Irish, Scottish
> or Welsh.
You know what I meant. Don't be coy :)
>
>
> > > As for 'pro Chetnik' I honestly can't
> > > comment but I suspect this is a label attached by you because you
don't
> > > like or can't accept whats happened to your country.
>
>
> > Just stating the facts, sir. From Carrington to Owen and down. At
> > least Blair got it right (somewhat).
>
> There's a lot of truth to this. The British establishment has
traditionally been
> pro-Serb and this manifested itself via the British government's Balkan
policies in
> the 1990's
At least Blair hasn't fallen over himself to sing the praises of
Kostunica, unlike your Gallic neighbours to the south.
Darko Peric
Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
news:memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
>
> > them were shot in retaliation.
>
> Murdered?
Killed.
Darko Peric
Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
news:memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
>
>
> Not falling for that monolithic NATO culture bullshit are you, Darko?
No, I'm a NATO supporter. I can understand a little hypocrisy, but when
it's as overt as in the Kerrey case, i'm disgusted.
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> > If Croat sources aren't "objective"
>
> That's correct - they aren't as well you know.
Then Muslim sources are out as well. Please refrain from using them,
just like Njavro mentioned.
>
> > neither is the poncey British army for us.
>
> The British Army don't make executive decisions either via the UN/ICTY not
the BiH
> government. As for the accusation that the Stolac is controlled by Croat
extremists
> who practice intimidation, murder and corruption- this is beyond doubt.
The SAS guy can go fuck himself. That's what pisses me off. He doesn't
represent anyone but himself and then this article comes out. Who the fuck
is he?
>
> > Fuck off.
>
> Nah.
Wasn't directed towards you...
Robert the 'erbert
(Darko Peric) wrote:
Nah...murdered.
kirill
>
> Brian Earp <bria...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:xlkI6.41$Wp1.2094@NewsReader...
> >
> > "Darko Peric" <da...@thompsonkinetics.com> wrote in message
> > news:yAiI6.24404$TW.1...@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
> > >
> > > Brian Earp <bria...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> > > news:4eiI6.12$Wp1.682@NewsReader...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > We liberated ourselves. How is that "fucking up"? What we did
> > fuck
> > > > up
> > > > > was that prison of peoples, Yugoslavia.
> > > >
> > > > At what cost Darko?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And do you know the suffering we endured while Yugoslavia was still
> in
> > > existence? Why do you think I'm in Canada? We fought a war to get out,
> > and
> > > it was well worth the price.
> >
> > But surely it wasn't always like that Darko? When I first visited
> Yugoslavia
> > back in '77, things appeared to be very good and all that's happened since
> > has been retrograde. Perhaps that's why I get so annoyed.
>
> Let's see: back in 1977 my Uncle Andjelko was refused post-secondary
> education unless he either joined the communist party or became an UDBA
> agent.
WOW. I didn't realize the USSR was so much freer than Yugoslavia.
The information in the western media always led me to believe that
Yugoslavia was more open and less oppressive.
> In 1977 my grandfather was still refused a pension for the 14th year in
> a row.
What were the particulars? Was he an ustasha?
>
> These are just small examples, I could give bigger ones. But these
> small examples just go to show how the "socialist paradise" really wasn't
> what it was portrayed to be.
Please share the bigger ones.
Aleksander Simich
<kir...@university.edu> squeaked:
>
> BrianE wrote:
> >
>
> > You lot - Serbs, Croats et al - have fucked up, and you know it.
>
> With generous help from imperial twats like you.
and hysterical trots like you.
> > Fucking nationalistic, bigotted wankers the lot of them.
>
> Hypocrisy must be genetic in your tribe.
like giant red eyes, no wings or chromosomes the size of your
genitalia is in your species, eh?
--
bilbo_etc.
Robert the 'erbert
wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
> >> You're not from Stolac, are you? Do you know the history of this town?
> >
> > War Crimes in Stolac
> >
> > The Complete Text of Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994). 84 pp. :
> > ill., maps [no date of publication indicated;acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
>
> Muslim source - therefore disregarded, using the same criteria that you
> apply to Croat sources.
That of course applies to all your 'evidence' too.
I was aware that it was a muslim source.
> > The following units of the Croatian Army were especially trained for the
> > conquest of Stolac and were dispatched to Stolac:
> >
> > -the Split brigade; -the Ploce brigade; -the First Guard Brigade “Tigers”
> > from Zagreb; -”Wolves of Korcula” brigade from the island of Korcula;
> > -units from Metkovic; -a number of small units from different parts of the
> > Republic of Croatia. Officers of the Croatian Intelligence Service (SIS)
> > were organized to act throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
>
> WTF? Don't flatter yourself. So, Republic of Croatia sent in 4 brigades
> (several thousand men) in a non-battle zone? Nah, no Croat-Muslim fighting
> took place in Stolac. The ABiH brigade was disarmed peacefully, and the
> members taken to Dretelj POW camp. A crime of ethnic cleansing was committed
> because women and children were expelled.
>
> Robbie, it's relatively easy to type in "Stolac" into a search engine and do
> a copy/paste job. Try running more detailed searches on "Konjic",
> "Jablanica", "Kakanj", "Bugojno", "Travnik", "Vares", "Fojnica", "Kraljeva
> Sutjeska", "Doljani", "Uzdol", "Grabovica", "Krizancevo Selo", "Zenica" and
> see what comes up.
Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure pales into
insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
I'm not sure eradicating and committing genocide on the Bosniacs is really a
'Europeanisation' of the Bosniacs.
The Net is a wonderful place Marko. I hope you are not criticising my sources ;)
Robert the 'erbert
wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010502...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
> > SAS investigator asks why gangsters and ethnic warriors live freely in
> > Stolac, Bosnia
> >
> > Nick Thorpe in Stolac, Bosnia
> > Wednesday May 2, 2001
> > The Guardian
> >
> > A senior British army officer has called on the international community to
> bring
> > Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
>
> And with perfect timing to add to anti-Croat hysteria.
Funny that,eh? Almost like there is a world conspiracy for your entity.
God knows why, eh?
Croat-hater? Moi??
> > Lieutenant-Colonel Hector Gullan of the Parachute Regiment and the SAS led an
> > undercover investigation into the violent intimidation of refugees trying
> > to return
> > to Stolac, in south-eastern Bosnia, in 1998 and 1999.
>
> Yes, but why bring this up NOW?
Because the NWO is real :))
> > His report, delivered to the international authorities in Bosnia, called for
> the
> > immediate arrest of 22 people suspected of violence, extortion and
> > intimidation since
> > the war, and for crimes against humanity during the expulsion of Bosnian
> > Muslims from
> > the area during the war in the republic in 1993.
>
> Strong element in truth in what is being said above, but his silence on
> exactly comparable events and what was being done to returnee Croats between
> 97-99 in central Bosnian towns is absolutely DEAFENING!
Well...you wanna keep bugging the ICTY with your evidence.
> This immediately discredits him as a partial observer,
Seeing as you have already agreed with the substance of what he said I don't know
what you are saying.
> unless he was
> specifically assigned to Stolac and had absolutely no knowledge of other
> events. If this is so, then why doesn't someone who was assigned to Travnik
> or Bugojno speak up? And if they did, would it be published in a major UK
> paper in the current atmosphere.
The vultures are circling.
> In 1998, 7 Croat returnees to Travnik were killed in bomb attacks.
Source?
> > "Until those that perpetrated these appalling crimes, and who continue to rule
> the
> > Stolac municipality by fear, are brought to account in the courts - either in
> > Sarajevo
>
> What a twat. Criminal cases (if we put the Hague aside) are processed in
> municipal courts, and Stolac cases would be processed in Stolac itself or
> Mostar. A Sarajevo trial is wishful thinking on his part, comparable to a
> trial for an African-American in front of a Ku-Klux-Klan grand wizard.
So you're saying that no Croat judges remain in Sarajevo?
So what is the proportion of returnees who sell their property to the majority
religious group?
> > She and her family were among those driven out in 1993. She carried her
> > mother on her
> > back for several miles in the terrible heat of July, with Croat snipers
> > shooting over
> > the heads of those fleeing, to spur them on.
>
> They had it better thatn Croat kids in Vitez who were routinely sniped down,
> Sarajevo style.
>
>
> > On this death march from Buna to Blagaj,
>
> How's it a death march if they are shooting sporadically over their heads?
> Unsuccessful attempt at a Holocaust analogy.
Because the mother died?
> > Fuad (his name has also been changed) describes Dretelj concentration camp
> > that same
> > month. Crammed into a metal-roofed hangar in one of the hottest areas of
> > Europe, some
> > prisoners died in the oven, others went mad. The guards sprayed bullets
> > through the
> > door, for fun.
>
> I don't know about the shootings, but they were robbed, weren't well fed and
> some were beaten up. A Muslim report on Dretelj cites three Muslim HVO
> guards as being the worst offenders. Bizarre.
Almost as bizarre as the Croat who ended up involved in the slaughter at Srebrenica?
Or even the Croats and Serbs who remained loyal to the BiH government?
> > "The victims are exaggerating," says the current mayor of Stolac, Zdravko
> Guzman.
> > "It's time to forget about the past, and turn instead to the future.'
>
> That's it dude! You tell 'em. Us Croats are told that bringing up injustices
> from the past is nationalistic and backward. Good on ya for showing it back
> in their face.
>
>
>
> > A member of the nationalist Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) which wants to
> > break from
> > Bosnia, he laughs when I ask if it would help reconciliation if Croats
> > apologised for
> > destroying the Muslims' homes and mosques: "Why should we apologise?
> > Perhaps someone
> > should apologise to us."
>
> Somehow they always manage to find THE dumbest Croat in town.
:))
> > "The people we would like to see arrested" said Harry Leefe, head of the UN
> > refugee
> > agency in Mostar, "are the serious criminals, the ones who organised the
> > concentration camps, the torture, the rape camps; the ones who forced women
> and
> > children to walk through minefields".
>
> So why did the SFOR run away last time when shit hit the fan in Stolac, back
> in 1998? They copped a hiding back then.
I'm not familiar with that.
Darko Peric
Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
news:memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
>
> Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
> Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure
pales into
> insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
What has happened to the people of Stolac over the last century has been
quite tragic.
>
> I'm not sure eradicating and committing genocide on the Bosniacs is really
a
> 'Europeanisation' of the Bosniacs.
So Croats committed "genocide" in Bosnia?
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
> In article <FPyI6.1176$ZJ.3...@ozemail.com.au>, ma...@rivernet.com.au
> (Marko Njavro)
> wrote:
>
>> ----------
>> In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
>> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>>
>>
>> >> You're not from Stolac, are you? Do you know the history of this town?
>> >
>> > War Crimes in Stolac
>> >
>> > The Complete Text of Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994). 84 pp. :
>> > ill., maps [no date of publication indicated;acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
>>
>> Muslim source - therefore disregarded, using the same criteria that you
>> apply to Croat sources.
>
> That of course applies to all your 'evidence' too.
>
> I was aware that it was a muslim source.
Excellent, it's always good to see equal standards being applied. Same
should apply to those that pose as western "neutral observers", but are in
fact either paid propagandists or have strong links with one of the
communities from ex-Yu. This would tend to discredit Michael Sells
(Muslims), professor McAdams (Croats), Yossef Bodansky, Emperors Clothes etc
(Serbs).
>> > The following units of the Croatian Army were especially trained for the
>> > conquest of Stolac and were dispatched to Stolac:
>> >
>> > -the Split brigade; -the Ploce brigade; -the First Guard Brigade “Tigers”
>> > from Zagreb; -”Wolves of Korcula” brigade from the island of Korcula;
>> > -units from Metkovic; -a number of small units from different parts of the
>> > Republic of Croatia. Officers of the Croatian Intelligence Service (SIS)
>> > were organized to act throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
>>
>> WTF? Don't flatter yourself. So, Republic of Croatia sent in 4 brigades
>> (several thousand men) in a non-battle zone? Nah, no Croat-Muslim fighting
>> took place in Stolac. The ABiH brigade was disarmed peacefully, and the
>> members taken to Dretelj POW camp. A crime of ethnic cleansing was committed
>> because women and children were expelled.
>>
>> Robbie, it's relatively easy to type in "Stolac" into a search engine and do
>> a copy/paste job. Try running more detailed searches on "Konjic",
>> "Jablanica", "Kakanj", "Bugojno", "Travnik", "Vares", "Fojnica", "Kraljeva
>> Sutjeska", "Doljani", "Uzdol", "Grabovica", "Krizancevo Selo", "Zenica" and
>> see what comes up.
>
> Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
> Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure pales
into
> insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
Brethren? That's a bit of a stretch.
> I'm not sure eradicating and committing genocide on the Bosniacs is really a
> 'Europeanisation' of the Bosniacs.
A comment which was made in late 1995.
> The Net is a wonderful place Marko. I hope you are not criticising my sources
;)
Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> > A senior British army officer has called on the international community to
>> bring
>> > Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
>>
>> And with perfect timing to add to anti-Croat hysteria.
>
> Funny that,eh? Almost like there is a world conspiracy for your entity.
>
> God knows why, eh?
A bit strange, to say the least. Stolac hardly gets any press in Bosnia, not
to mention Croatia - and now all of a sudden, a major British newspaper runs
a big story on it.
>> > Lieutenant-Colonel Hector Gullan of the Parachute Regiment and the SAS led
an
>> > undercover investigation into the violent intimidation of refugees trying
>> > to return
>> > to Stolac, in south-eastern Bosnia, in 1998 and 1999.
>>
>> Yes, but why bring this up NOW?
>
> Because the NWO is real :))
Forget he conspiracy shit, because I don't buy into that. It's just that
they are being cunts, kicking someone while they're down.
>> > His report, delivered to the international authorities in Bosnia, called
for
>> the
>> > immediate arrest of 22 people suspected of violence, extortion and
>> > intimidation since
>> > the war, and for crimes against humanity during the expulsion of Bosnian
>> > Muslims from
>> > the area during the war in the republic in 1993.
>>
>> Strong element in truth in what is being said above, but his silence on
>> exactly comparable events and what was being done to returnee Croats between
>> 97-99 in central Bosnian towns is absolutely DEAFENING!
>
> Well...you wanna keep bugging the ICTY with your evidence.
ICTY isn't concerned with events post 1995.
>> This immediately discredits him as a partial observer,
>
> Seeing as you have already agreed with the substance of what he said I don't
know
> what you are saying.
Mea culpa. It should of course read "impartial".
>> In 1998, 7 Croat returnees to Travnik were killed in bomb attacks.
>
> Source?
Something that is common knowledge in Bosnia, and something I discussed with
Muslims numerous times.
As it happened over a period of just over a year and with heaps of different
sources, search Yahoo for "travnik bomb attack".
>> What a twat. Criminal cases (if we put the Hague aside) are processed in
>> municipal courts, and Stolac cases would be processed in Stolac itself or
>> Mostar. A Sarajevo trial is wishful thinking on his part, comparable to a
>> trial for an African-American in front of a Ku-Klux-Klan grand wizard.
>
> So you're saying that no Croat judges remain in Sarajevo?
I'm saying that any Croat wouldn't get a fair trial in Sarajevo on those
charges.
>> Nah, she's only going back for a few months to regain the ownership title
>> over her property. After that, it's sell up and adios amigos. Same story all
>> over BiH.
>
> So what is the proportion of returnees who sell their property to the majority
> religious group?
Good question, but I suspect that no such stats are available. Going from
the fact that ethnic structure in all towns has not changed since 1995, and
with plenty of anecdotal evidence, I would say that selling of property is
widespread. No one wants to live somewhere where they are viewed
suspiciously, are treated as second class citizens and where they are easy
targets if a war broke out.
>> > On this death march from Buna to Blagaj,
>>
>> How's it a death march if they are shooting sporadically over their heads?
>> Unsuccessful attempt at a Holocaust analogy.
>
> Because the mother died?
They weren't being marched to their deaths but marched to ABiH controlled
territory in Blagaj (south east Mostar)
>> > Fuad (his name has also been changed) describes Dretelj concentration camp
>> > that same
>> > month. Crammed into a metal-roofed hangar in one of the hottest areas of
>> > Europe, some
>> > prisoners died in the oven, others went mad. The guards sprayed bullets
>> > through the
>> > door, for fun.
>>
>> I don't know about the shootings, but they were robbed, weren't well fed and
>> some were beaten up. A Muslim report on Dretelj cites three Muslim HVO
>> guards as being the worst offenders. Bizarre.
>
> Almost as bizarre as the Croat who ended up involved in the slaughter at
> Srebrenica?
Or like Juka Prazina (a Muslim paramilitary leader) who brought 70 of his
fighters from Sarajevo to Mostar and fought for the Croats.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
>
> >> > A senior British army officer has called on the international community to
> >> bring
> >> > Croat war criminals to justice in Bosnia.
> >>
> >> And with perfect timing to add to anti-Croat hysteria.
> >
> > Funny that,eh? Almost like there is a world conspiracy for your entity.
> >
> > God knows why, eh?
>
> A bit strange, to say the least. Stolac hardly gets any press in Bosnia, not
> to mention Croatia - and now all of a sudden, a major British newspaper runs
> a big story on it.
Well...do you need any more lessons on PR? If you are insinuating that the High Rep
PR are people are doing their stuff, then you'll be right.
> >> > Lieutenant-Colonel Hector Gullan of the Parachute Regiment and the SAS led
> an
> >> > undercover investigation into the violent intimidation of refugees trying
> >> > to return
> >> > to Stolac, in south-eastern Bosnia, in 1998 and 1999.
> >>
> >> Yes, but why bring this up NOW?
> >
> > Because the NWO is real :))
>
> Forget he conspiracy shit, because I don't buy into that. It's just that
> they are being cunts, kicking someone while they're down.
From a neutral viewpoint, you really can't believe your own propaganda can you?
The Bosnian Croats have taken steps to by-pass the federal government and create
parallel or even sovereign institutions and you think this makes you 'down'?
> >> > His report, delivered to the international authorities in Bosnia, called
> for
> >> the
> >> > immediate arrest of 22 people suspected of violence, extortion and
> >> > intimidation since
> >> > the war, and for crimes against humanity during the expulsion of Bosnian
> >> > Muslims from
> >> > the area during the war in the republic in 1993.
> >>
> >> Strong element in truth in what is being said above, but his silence on
> >> exactly comparable events and what was being done to returnee Croats between
> >> 97-99 in central Bosnian towns is absolutely DEAFENING!
> >
> > Well...you wanna keep bugging the ICTY with your evidence.
>
> ICTY isn't concerned with events post 1995.
Wrong. The ICTY has issued indictments against several individuals for alleged crimes
- including Milosevic post 1995. If you mean the ICTY has no remit to issue
indictments for crimes committed post-1995 in BiH, you maybe right.
> >> This immediately discredits him as a partial observer,
> >
> > Seeing as you have already agreed with the substance of what he said I don't
> know
> > what you are saying.
>
> Mea culpa. It should of course read "impartial".
I still don't see your point - you agreed with him.
What you seem to object to is the timing (see above PR etc..).
> >> In 1998, 7 Croat returnees to Travnik were killed in bomb attacks.
> >
> > Source?
>
> Something that is common knowledge in Bosnia, and something I discussed with
> Muslims numerous times.
That isn't good enough as well you know.
> As it happened over a period of just over a year and with heaps of different
> sources, search Yahoo for "travnik bomb attack".
Er...it is incumbent on you to provide the sources - not me - as you made the
statement. I sent enough time checking out 'Stolac'.
> >> What a twat. Criminal cases (if we put the Hague aside) are processed in
> >> municipal courts, and Stolac cases would be processed in Stolac itself or
> >> Mostar. A Sarajevo trial is wishful thinking on his part, comparable to a
> >> trial for an African-American in front of a Ku-Klux-Klan grand wizard.
> >
> > So you're saying that no Croat judges remain in Sarajevo?
>
> I'm saying that any Croat wouldn't get a fair trial in Sarajevo on those
> charges.
That's why we need the ICTY or something like it. Anyway, what alternative do you
suggest - a Croat court?
> >> Nah, she's only going back for a few months to regain the ownership title
> >> over her property. After that, it's sell up and adios amigos. Same story all
> >> over BiH.
> >
> > So what is the proportion of returnees who sell their property to the majority
> > religious group?
>
> Good question, but I suspect that no such stats are available.
Not yet anyway.
> Going from
> the fact that ethnic structure in all towns has not changed since 1995,
That isn't true. The ethnic proportions hasn't changed much in the majority of towns
might be fairer?
> and
> with plenty of anecdotal evidence, I would say that selling of property is
> widespread. No one wants to live somewhere where they are viewed
> suspiciously, are treated as second class citizens and where they are easy
> targets if a war broke out.
Sure. Not many. Very few....
> >> > On this death march from Buna to Blagaj,
> >>
> >> How's it a death march if they are shooting sporadically over their heads?
> >> Unsuccessful attempt at a Holocaust analogy.
> >
> > Because the mother died?
>
> They weren't being marched to their deaths but marched to ABiH controlled
> territory in Blagaj (south east Mostar)
OK.
> >> > Fuad (his name has also been changed) describes Dretelj concentration camp
> >> > that same
> >> > month. Crammed into a metal-roofed hangar in one of the hottest areas of
> >> > Europe, some
> >> > prisoners died in the oven, others went mad. The guards sprayed bullets
> >> > through the
> >> > door, for fun.
> >>
> >> I don't know about the shootings, but they were robbed, weren't well fed and
> >> some were beaten up. A Muslim report on Dretelj cites three Muslim HVO
> >> guards as being the worst offenders. Bizarre.
> >
> > Almost as bizarre as the Croat who ended up involved in the slaughter at
> > Srebrenica?
>
> Or like Juka Prazina (a Muslim paramilitary leader) who brought 70 of his
> fighters from Sarajevo to Mostar and fought for the Croats.
Or the Bihac pocket or like I said before which of course you wish to ignore the
thousands of Croats and Serbs who remained loyal to the BiH government and reject the
rabid nationalist nonsense emanating from the HDZ and SDS and other extremists.
Robert the 'erbert
(Darko Peric) wrote:
>
> Robert the 'erbert <robbie@come_in_no.9.net> wrote in message
> news:memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk...
> > In article <FPyI6.1176$ZJ.3...@ozemail.com.au>, ma...@rivernet.com.au
> (Marko Njavro)
>
> >
> > Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
> > Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure
> pales into
> > insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
>
>
> What has happened to the people of Stolac over the last century has been
> quite tragic.
Still no expansion on what you said.
> > I'm not sure eradicating and committing genocide on the Bosniacs is really
> a
> > 'Europeanisation' of the Bosniacs.
>
>
> So Croats committed "genocide" in Bosnia?
Some Croats clearly did as set out in the Geneva convention definition of genocide
and it was encouraged by some Croat leaders including Tudjman.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
> > In article <FPyI6.1176$ZJ.3...@ozemail.com.au>, ma...@rivernet.com.au
> > (Marko Njavro)
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ----------
> >> In article <memo.20010504...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> >> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >> You're not from Stolac, are you? Do you know the history of this town?
> >> >
> >> > War Crimes in Stolac
> >> >
> >> > The Complete Text of Crimes in Stolac Municipality (1992-1994). 84 pp. :
> >> > ill., maps [no date of publication indicated;acquired in Sarajevo in 1996].
> >>
> >> Muslim source - therefore disregarded, using the same criteria that you
> >> apply to Croat sources.
> >
> > That of course applies to all your 'evidence' too.
> >
> > I was aware that it was a muslim source.
>
> Excellent, it's always good to see equal standards being applied. Same
> should apply to those that pose as western "neutral observers", but are in
> fact either paid propagandists or have strong links with one of the
> communities from ex-Yu.
Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
> This would tend to discredit Michael Sells
Nothing discredits someone unless you have some evidence to discredit him.
I've seen a lot of dissing of Sells but not one piece of evidence which actually
discredits him i.e. lying or something of this nature.
So what is it that you have on him?
> >> > The following units of the Croatian Army were especially trained for the
> >> > conquest of Stolac and were dispatched to Stolac:
> >> >
> >> > -the Split brigade; -the Ploce brigade; -the First Guard Brigade “Tigers”
> >> > from Zagreb; -”Wolves of Korcula” brigade from the island of Korcula;
> >> > -units from Metkovic; -a number of small units from different parts of the
> >> > Republic of Croatia. Officers of the Croatian Intelligence Service (SIS)
> >> > were organized to act throughout the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
> >>
> >> WTF? Don't flatter yourself. So, Republic of Croatia sent in 4 brigades
> >> (several thousand men) in a non-battle zone? Nah, no Croat-Muslim fighting
> >> took place in Stolac. The ABiH brigade was disarmed peacefully, and the
> >> members taken to Dretelj POW camp. A crime of ethnic cleansing was committed
> >> because women and children were expelled.
> >>
> >> Robbie, it's relatively easy to type in "Stolac" into a search engine and do
> >> a copy/paste job. Try running more detailed searches on "Konjic",
> >> "Jablanica", "Kakanj", "Bugojno", "Travnik", "Vares", "Fojnica", "Kraljeva
> >> Sutjeska", "Doljani", "Uzdol", "Grabovica", "Krizancevo Selo", "Zenica" and
> >> see what comes up.
> >
> > Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
> > Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure pales
> into
> > insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
>
> Brethren? That's a bit of a stretch.
Same language, same ethnicity. Divided by a religion and historical and cultural
differences.
> > I'm not sure eradicating and committing genocide on the Bosniacs is really a
> > 'Europeanisation' of the Bosniacs.
>
> A comment which was made in late 1995.
I know.
> > The Net is a wonderful place Marko. I hope you are not criticising my sources
> ;)
>
> Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
Yes....but it doesn't mean they are either untruthful or wrong.
I have always said I'm biased against Serb nationalism.
Care to point out where I'm wrong on my analysis of Serb nationalism or even better
care to point out where Sells is wrong on his analysis of Serb nationalism?
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010505...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> Excellent, it's always good to see equal standards being applied. Same
>> should apply to those that pose as western "neutral observers", but are in
>> fact either paid propagandists or have strong links with one of the
>> communities from ex-Yu.
>
> Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
Not really.
>> This would tend to discredit Michael Sells
>
> Nothing discredits someone unless you have some evidence to discredit him.
>
> I've seen a lot of dissing of Sells but not one piece of evidence which
actually
> discredits him i.e. lying or something of this nature.
>
> So what is it that you have on him?
Hmm, let's see. I'll put the fact that he teaches Islamic history (and hence
has an emotional attachment to all things Islamic) aside. One of his
students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is Vanja
Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
English.
There are other concerns I have, but one that immediately springs to mind is
his manipulation with images.
On his site he has a picture of a man in an ordinary military uniform, with
a German Iron Cross (on his cap I think). The caption says that this is "a
Croat in a Nazi uniform responsible for genocide over the Muslims in
Prozor". I mean puhleaseeee.
>> > Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
>> > Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure pales
>> into
>> > insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
>>
>> Brethren? That's a bit of a stretch.
>
> Same language,
Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
many turkish words.
> same ethnicity. Divided by a religion and historical and cultural
> differences.
Irreconcilable differences.
>> Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
>
> Yes....but it doesn't mean they are either untruthful or wrong.
>
> I have always said I'm biased against Serb nationalism.
I don't think that any bias is fair.
> Care to point out where I'm wrong on my analysis of Serb nationalism or
> even better
> care to point out where Sells is wrong on his analysis of Serb nationalism?
What is his deal? If he is trying to present crimes over the Muslims only -
then fine, he is a Muslim victimologist and hence presents only one side of
a three sided story. That is quite alright.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010505...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> A bit strange, to say the least. Stolac hardly gets any press in Bosnia, not
>> to mention Croatia - and now all of a sudden, a major British newspaper runs
>> a big story on it.
>
> Well...do you need any more lessons on PR?
We have no money (the only site on Muslim war crimes in English language has
been shut down), and we have no allies.
> If you are insinuating that the
> High Rep
> PR are people are doing their stuff, then you'll be right.
They are fooling themselves if they think that this will have any effect.
I'm just bitter about the fact that journos are prostituting themselves
instead of taking a measured and an analytical approach.
>> > Because the NWO is real :))
>>
>> Forget he conspiracy shit, because I don't buy into that. It's just that
>> they are being cunts, kicking someone while they're down.
>
> From a neutral viewpoint, you really can't believe your own propaganda can
you?
>
> The Bosnian Croats have taken steps to by-pass the federal government and
create
> parallel or even sovereign institutions and you think this makes you 'down'?
Down because all the media have been taking potshots at us since the whole
thing started. Would it kill anyone to delve a bit deeper into the
motivation behind Croat demands, or to question the tactics whereby private
banks are being taken over by tanks? I don't really need anyone to write
"Bosnian Croats are wonderful and are being pushed to the brink of
extermination by the cynical international community", but it would be good
for some journalist to be less superficial and more analytical, as well as
to gather information from more sources.
>> > Well...you wanna keep bugging the ICTY with your evidence.
>>
>> ICTY isn't concerned with events post 1995.
>
> Wrong. The ICTY has issued indictments against several individuals for
> alleged crimes
> - including Milosevic post 1995. If you mean the ICTY has no remit to issue
> indictments for crimes committed post-1995 in BiH, you maybe right.
I was of course talking about BiH. You have to concentrate on the context.
>> Something that is common knowledge in Bosnia, and something I discussed with
>> Muslims numerous times.
>
> That isn't good enough as well you know.
>>
>> As it happened over a period of just over a year and with heaps of different
>> sources, search Yahoo for "travnik bomb attack".
>
> Er...it is incumbent on you to provide the sources - not me - as you made the
> statement. I sent enough time checking out 'Stolac'.
On Yahoo, all those things you posted come up on the first 1-2 pages of
matches. To dig up all the 97 and 98 central Bosnia stuff, you gotta search
through a shitload of other stuff.
>> Going from
>> the fact that ethnic structure in all towns has not changed since 1995,
>
> That isn't true. The ethnic proportions hasn't changed much in the majority
> of towns
> might be fairer?
What is "much" and what isn't is a subjective measure.
>> Or like Juka Prazina (a Muslim paramilitary leader) who brought 70 of his
>> fighters from Sarajevo to Mostar and fought for the Croats.
>
> Or the Bihac pocket or like I said before which of course you wish to ignore
the
> thousands of Croats and Serbs who remained loyal to the BiH government
We had this discussion before. Any BiH government after the departure of
Serbs and Croats from the institutions is not legitimate because no new
elections were held. It was a show ran by Izetbegovic who handpicked nominal
Croats and Serbs to replace those that had left.
> and
> reject the
> rabid nationalist nonsense emanating from the HDZ and SDS and other
extremists.
I'll leave the Serbs aside and concentrate on the Croats. Do you refer to
Croats in the ABiH, or Croats in HVO, but in regions where HVO was allied
with the ABiH throughout. Even in 1993, HVO was allied with the ABiH in
Bihac, Gradacac, Tuzla, Sarajevo etc. The number of Croats in the ABiH was
minimal, and certainly smaller than the number of Muslims in HOS and HVO
prior to 1993.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010505...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
>
> >> Excellent, it's always good to see equal standards being applied. Same
> >> should apply to those that pose as western "neutral observers", but are in
> >> fact either paid propagandists or have strong links with one of the
> >> communities from ex-Yu.
> >
> > Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
>
> Not really.
OK which commentators on the Balkans are not paid propagandists or 'biased'?
> >> This would tend to discredit Michael Sells
> >
> > Nothing discredits someone unless you have some evidence to discredit him.
> >
> > I've seen a lot of dissing of Sells but not one piece of evidence which
> actually
> > discredits him i.e. lying or something of this nature.
> >
> > So what is it that you have on him?
>
> Hmm, let's see. I'll put the fact that he teaches Islamic history (and hence
> has an emotional attachment to all things Islamic) aside.
Comparative religion is his thing, isn't it?
> One of his
> students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is Vanja
> Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
> who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
> English.
And the charge is?
> There are other concerns I have, but one that immediately springs to mind is
> his manipulation with images.
> On his site he has a picture of a man in an ordinary military uniform, with
> a German Iron Cross (on his cap I think). The caption says that this is "a
> Croat in a Nazi uniform responsible for genocide over the Muslims in
> Prozor". I mean puhleaseeee.
Er...is this the best you can come up with?
Feeble.
> >> > Sure...I was just answering the question with some of the history.
> >> > Darko never did say what happened in Stolac. Whatever it was I'm sure pales
> >> into
> >> > insignificance as to what happened to your Bosniac brethren.
> >>
> >> Brethren? That's a bit of a stretch.
> >
> > Same language,
>
> Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
> many turkish words.
Er...adopted? They've always spoken it.
> > same ethnicity. Divided by a religion and historical and cultural
> > differences.
>
> Irreconcilable differences.
To nationalist - yes.
> >> Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
> >
> > Yes....but it doesn't mean they are either untruthful or wrong.
> >
> > I have always said I'm biased against Serb nationalism.
>
> I don't think that any bias is fair.
Then you can stop arguing the Croat cause.
> > Care to point out where I'm wrong on my analysis of Serb nationalism or
> > even better
> > care to point out where Sells is wrong on his analysis of Serb nationalism?
>
> What is his deal? If he is trying to present crimes over the Muslims only -
> then fine,
His excellent book dealt with the extremist religious reasoning of both Serbs and
Croats for their attempts at genocide on the Bosnian muslims.
Why don't you read it some time so that you have credibility when talking about
Sells?
> he is a Muslim victimologist
No such concept - invented by Serb and Croat genocidists.
> and hence presents only one side of a three sided story. That is quite alright.
His book never claims anything other than explaining Serb and Croat justifications
for genocide.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010506...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> > Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
>>
>> Not really.
>
> OK which commentators on the Balkans are not paid propagandists or 'biased'?
None. The right question would be which commentators/historians are least
biased.
>> One of his
>> students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is Vanja
>> Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
>> who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
>> English.
>
> And the charge is?
You don't see any connection there?
>> There are other concerns I have, but one that immediately springs to mind is
>> his manipulation with images.
>> On his site he has a picture of a man in an ordinary military uniform, with
>> a German Iron Cross (on his cap I think). The caption says that this is "a
>> Croat in a Nazi uniform responsible for genocide over the Muslims in
>> Prozor". I mean puhleaseeee.
>
> Er...is this the best you can come up with?
>
> Feeble.
Just a quick indicator of where he is coming from.
>> Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
>> many turkish words.
>
> Er...adopted? They've always spoken it.
But Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist anymore.
>> > same ethnicity. Divided by a religion and historical and cultural
>> > differences.
>>
>> Irreconcilable differences.
>
> To nationalist - yes.
To someone that has all encompassing knowledge of the region and it's
people, and to someone whose mind isn't imprisoned by dogmatic beliefs -
yes.
>> >> Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
>> >
>> > Yes....but it doesn't mean they are either untruthful or wrong.
>> >
>> > I have always said I'm biased against Serb nationalism.
>>
>> I don't think that any bias is fair.
>
> Then you can stop arguing the Croat cause.
And you can stop arguing the Muslim cause.
>> > Care to point out where I'm wrong on my analysis of Serb nationalism or
>> > even better
>> > care to point out where Sells is wrong on his analysis of Serb nationalism?
>>
>> What is his deal? If he is trying to present crimes over the Muslims only -
>> then fine,
>
> His excellent book dealt with the extremist religious reasoning of both Serbs
and
> Croats for their attempts at genocide on the Bosnian muslims.
No genocide committed by Croats on the Muslims.
> Why don't you read it some time so that you have credibility when talking
about
> Sells?
I've read what's on his site, shrugged and moved on. Nothing I hadn't seen
before in any of the SDA publications.
>> he is a Muslim victimologist
>
> No such concept - invented by Serb and Croat genocidists.
Victimology is a branch of history that deals with research into human
casualties. There are Serb, Croat, Muslim, Armenian, Jewish (insert any
nation) victimologists.
>> and hence presents only one side of a three sided story. That is quite
alright.
>
> His book never claims anything other than explaining Serb and Croat
justifications
> for genocide.
Good, hence he is explaining the events from the Muslim point of view,
nothing less, nothing more. And that's the end of that.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010506...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
>
> >> > Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
> >>
> >> Not really.
> >
> > OK which commentators on the Balkans are not paid propagandists or 'biased'?
>
> None. The right question would be which commentators/historians are least
> biased.
Which would be according to what criteria?
> >> One of his
> >> students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is Vanja
> >> Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
> >> who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
> >> English.
> >
> > And the charge is?
>
> You don't see any connection there?
No. The only important factor here is Sells credibility. To deduce he is not you need
to find something which proves he does not have credibility.
I've asked this question on numerous occasions to both Serbs and Croats (who to a man
have never read the excellent Bridge Betrayed - 'cept Frank) and have had nothing
back at all.
> >> There are other concerns I have, but one that immediately springs to mind is
> >> his manipulation with images.
> >> On his site he has a picture of a man in an ordinary military uniform, with
> >> a German Iron Cross (on his cap I think). The caption says that this is "a
> >> Croat in a Nazi uniform responsible for genocide over the Muslims in
> >> Prozor". I mean puhleaseeee.
> >
> > Er...is this the best you can come up with?
> >
> > Feeble.
>
> Just a quick indicator of where he is coming from.
It's very, very feeble.
> >> Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
> >> many turkish words.
> >
> > Er...adopted? They've always spoken it.
>
> But Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist anymore.
All Bosnians speak Serb-Croat whether it has become Serb, Croat or a Bosniak dialect
isn't the point.
The muslim Bosnians have always spoken Serbo-Croat.
> >> > same ethnicity. Divided by a religion and historical and cultural
> >> > differences.
> >>
> >> Irreconcilable differences.
> >
> > To nationalist - yes.
>
> To someone that has all encompassing knowledge of the region and it's
> people, and to someone whose mind isn't imprisoned by dogmatic beliefs -
> yes.
How can a nationalist have an 'encompassing knowledge'?
> >> >> Any Muslim, Michael Sells, or Feral sources are biased.
> >> >
> >> > Yes....but it doesn't mean they are either untruthful or wrong.
> >> >
> >> > I have always said I'm biased against Serb nationalism.
> >>
> >> I don't think that any bias is fair.
> >
> > Then you can stop arguing the Croat cause.
>
> And you can stop arguing the Muslim cause.
He, he. I'm not - that is the accusation of the Croat nationalist.
> >> > Care to point out where I'm wrong on my analysis of Serb nationalism or
> >> > even better
> >> > care to point out where Sells is wrong on his analysis of Serb nationalism?
> >>
> >> What is his deal? If he is trying to present crimes over the Muslims only -
> >> then fine,
> >
> > His excellent book dealt with the extremist religious reasoning of both Serbs
> and
> > Croats for their attempts at genocide on the Bosnian muslims.
>
> No genocide committed by Croats on the Muslims.
According to the UN articles, genocide was carried out by the Croats and Serbs on
Bosnian muslims.
> > Why don't you read it some time so that you have credibility when talking
> about
> > Sells?
>
> I've read what's on his site, shrugged and moved on. Nothing I hadn't seen
> before in any of the SDA publications.
I doubt you will you find the explanations and analysis for the justification of
genocide by both Serb and Croats as elucidated by Sells in any SDA publications.
Of course, the only way you can prove this is by reading his book.
> >> he is a Muslim victimologist
> >
> > No such concept - invented by Serb and Croat genocidists.
>
> Victimology is a branch of history that deals with research into human
> casualties. There are Serb, Croat, Muslim, Armenian, Jewish (insert any
> nation) victimologists.
Victimology is *not* a branch of history and is not a historical concept.
It is a invented concept used by those seeking to slander those that they think are
their enemies or revisionists seeking to distort accepted historical thinking.
Quite clearly, you have no understanding of history as a discipline or you wouldn't
talk such utter rubbish.
Having majored in history *I do know* what I'm talking about
> >> and hence presents only one side of a three sided story. That is quite
> alright.
> >
> > His book never claims anything other than explaining Serb and Croat
> justifications
> > for genocide.
>
> Good, hence he is explaining the events from the Muslim point of view,
> nothing less, nothing more. And that's the end of that.
No it isn't. You lack an understanding of history.
There's no end.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010510...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> >> > Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
>> >>
>> >> Not really.
>> >
>> > OK which commentators on the Balkans are not paid propagandists or
'biased'?
>>
>> None. The right question would be which commentators/historians are least
>> biased.
>
> Which would be according to what criteria?
Just off the top of my head:
(1) Have no links (family, friends, business associates) with any of the
ethnic communities from former Yu
(2) Have no ideological bias, eg. Socialists & Marxists from the west have
sided with the Serbs and Milosevic because they saw them as the last
bastions of communism...and saw all other nations as puppets of the USA
(3) Spent some time living with, and observing all the communities.
I know that I'm too strict and I've basically ruled everyone out.
>> >> One of his
>> >> students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is
Vanja
>> >> Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
>> >> who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
>> >> English.
>> >
>> > And the charge is?
>>
>> You don't see any connection there?
>
> No.
You don't want to see it.
> The only important factor here is Sells credibility.
The other factor is his motivation for writing that material. I think that
the motive has been quite clearly established.
> To deduce he is
> not you need
> to find something which proves he does not have credibility.
You mean flat out catch him lying? He is not that stupid, his agit-prop
works in much subtler ways. His work is totally skewed in portraying just
one side as absolute victims. In order to achieve something like that, all
you have to do is expose and take the other side's crimes to a new level and
keep hush-hush about your so called victim's "little" indiscretions.
> I've asked this question on numerous occasions to both Serbs and Croats
> (who to a man
> have never read the excellent Bridge Betrayed - 'cept Frank) and have had
nothing
> back at all.
Why would I read something that describes people, places and events that I
have experienced first hand? I examined his site, read what he wrote on
Usenet, and even communicated with him.....I know where he is coming from.
He's an insignificant little man who will change nothing....hardly a thorn
in anyone's side.
>> > Er...is this the best you can come up with?
>> >
>> > Feeble.
>>
>> Just a quick indicator of where he is coming from.
>
> It's very, very feeble.
Just the kind of crap Serb TV was showing in 1991.
>> >> Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
>> >> many turkish words.
>> >
>> > Er...adopted? They've always spoken it.
>>
>> But Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist anymore.
>
> All Bosnians speak Serb-Croat whether it has become Serb, Croat or a
> Bosniak dialect
No dialects. They are separate languages in their own right.
> The muslim Bosnians have always spoken Serbo-Croat.
Since the beginning of time, I guess?
>> To someone that has all encompassing knowledge of the region and it's
>> people, and to someone whose mind isn't imprisoned by dogmatic beliefs -
>> yes.
>
> How can a nationalist have an 'encompassing knowledge'?
Grew up with Serbs and Muslims and have members of those nations as
relatives. Know just about everything there is to know about the history and
politics of the region.
>> > Then you can stop arguing the Croat cause.
>>
>> And you can stop arguing the Muslim cause.
>
> He, he. I'm not - that is the accusation of the Croat nationalist.
I'm saying that you are. You are saying that you are not. It's an impasse.
>> > His excellent book dealt with the extremist religious reasoning of both
Serbs
>> and
>> > Croats for their attempts at genocide on the Bosnian muslims.
>>
>> No genocide committed by Croats on the Muslims.
>
> According to the UN articles, genocide was carried out by the Croats and Serbs
on
> Bosnian muslims.
Incorrect. No court has ever brought down such a global decision which
implies collective guilt. What is correct is that some individuals committed
crimes in certain areas which were interpreted as being genocidal in nature
as per the UN charter.
>> > Why don't you read it some time so that you have credibility when talking
>> about
>> > Sells?
>>
>> I've read what's on his site, shrugged and moved on. Nothing I hadn't seen
>> before in any of the SDA publications.
>
> I doubt you will you find the explanations and analysis for the justification
of
> genocide by both Serb and Croats as elucidated by Sells in any SDA
publications.
No genocide.
> Of course, the only way you can prove this is by reading his book.
The onus is on you to prove that "genocide was carried out by THE Croats".
>> >> he is a Muslim victimologist
>> >
>> > No such concept - invented by Serb and Croat genocidists.
>>
>> Victimology is a branch of history that deals with research into human
>> casualties. There are Serb, Croat, Muslim, Armenian, Jewish (insert any
>> nation) victimologists.
>
> Victimology is *not* a branch of history and is not a historical concept.
Victimology is a social science focused on victims of crime and abuse. Those
historians that focus exclusively on researching historical occurences of
genocide, victimisation and abuse of power are hence nothing more that
victimologists. It isn't a derogatory term, but an accurate description of
what it is that they do.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010510...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
>
> >> >> > Anything which doesn't follow your line fits into this category.
> >> >>
> >> >> Not really.
> >> >
> >> > OK which commentators on the Balkans are not paid propagandists or
> 'biased'?
> >>
> >> None. The right question would be which commentators/historians are least
> >> biased.
> >
> > Which would be according to what criteria?
>
> Just off the top of my head:
>
> (1) Have no links (family, friends, business associates) with any of the
> ethnic communities from former Yu
> (2) Have no ideological bias, eg. Socialists & Marxists from the west have
> sided with the Serbs and Milosevic because they saw them as the last
> bastions of communism...and saw all other nations as puppets of the USA
> (3) Spent some time living with, and observing all the communities.
>
> I know that I'm too strict and I've basically ruled everyone out.
Yes, you have. Everybody is excluded. Those that are non-ex-Yugo cannot have a
'non-biased' opinion as they would have to travel to the region and live and talk to
the inhabitants.
Quite clearly all your criteria is absurd and would nullify practically every
historical writing ever done.
On the other hand, I am OK according to your criteria so when will people start
listening and taking notice of Usenet users? ;)
> >> >> One of his
> >> >> students at Haverford and an assistant in writing all these reports is
> Vanja
> >> >> Filipovic (with whom I had a few discussions), a Muslim from Hercegovina,
> >> >> who also runs BosNet, which is a Bosnian Muslim information service in
> >> >> English.
> >> >
> >> > And the charge is?
> >>
> >> You don't see any connection there?
> >
> > No.
>
> You don't want to see it.
I can see what you are saying but you think that this is somehow crucial to
explaining Sell's position.
I don't.
> > The only important factor here is Sells credibility.
>
> The other factor is his motivation for writing that material. I think that
> the motive has been quite clearly established.
The motive is to explain the justifications for genocide that some Serbs and Croats
have formulated.
> > To deduce he is
> > not you need
> > to find something which proves he does not have credibility.
>
> You mean flat out catch him lying? He is not that stupid, his agit-prop
> works in much subtler ways. His work is totally skewed in portraying just
> one side as absolute victims. In order to achieve something like that, all
> you have to do is expose and take the other side's crimes to a new level and
> keep hush-hush about your so called victim's "little" indiscretions.
The book is not skewed: it dovetails with the numerous other books and writings I
have seen on the topic, countless NGO and UN reports.
The Bosnian muslims were very clearly persecuted in a systematic and organised way by
both Serbs and Croats.
This is not to say that individual muslims didn't commit war crimes because they
clearly did.
What is remarkable though is the systematic destruction of all muslim culture
subjected to Croat and Serb rule and the utterings of both Serb and Croat leaders.
This is unlike the muslim's strategy.
I defy you to find one utterance that any muslim leader of the BiH has made which
justifies ethnic cleansing, genocide or anything of that nature.
> > I've asked this question on numerous occasions to both Serbs and Croats
> > (who to a man
> > have never read the excellent Bridge Betrayed - 'cept Frank) and have had
> nothing
> > back at all.
>
> Why would I read something that describes people, places and events that I
> have experienced first hand?
Because it may enlighten you? You know have a different perspective on the situation
might mellow your nationalist certainty.
> I examined his site, read what he wrote on
> Usenet, and even communicated with him.....I know where he is coming from.
> He's an insignificant little man who will change nothing....hardly a thorn
> in anyone's side.
Insulting now? I've also communicated with him remember and read his posts on Usenet
(ha, I've even read the exchanges he had with the scum, Amir).
And I know someone who writes with reasoned integrity and those who don't.
And as far as someone changing anything, I'm suggesting to you that his chances of
changing something are significantly greater than yours. Which is your (Bosnian
Croat's) major problem.
You need someone with credibility to write your story (mind you - don't expect to
like what is written) because it's definitely true that your people do not have much
a voice. That's because your struggle is several magnitudes smaller than what
happened between the Serbs extinguishing of muslim culture in the territories they
took.
An aside to the major players. No consolation I know but you know...where there is
a lot of shit there are loads of flies and where there is less shit there are fewer.
Maybe it will take years for the suffering of Croats to be told in a reasoned
verifiable way: lists of Croat dead and accusations that muslims killed Croats on a
4-1 ratio ain't gonna wash.
> >> > Er...is this the best you can come up with?
> >> >
> >> > Feeble.
> >>
> >> Just a quick indicator of where he is coming from.
> >
> > It's very, very feeble.
>
> Just the kind of crap Serb TV was showing in 1991.
I haven't seen the picture but is the photo made up. I've had a quick look but can't
find it.
> >> >> Not really. They have adopted the old Serbo-Croatian and spiced it up with
> >> >> many turkish words.
> >> >
> >> > Er...adopted? They've always spoken it.
> >>
> >> But Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist anymore.
> >
> > All Bosnians speak Serb-Croat whether it has become Serb, Croat or a
> > Bosniak dialect
>
> No dialects. They are separate languages in their own right.
OK.
> > The muslim Bosnians have always spoken Serbo-Croat.
>
> Since the beginning of time, I guess?
You can and have done better than that.
> >> To someone that has all encompassing knowledge of the region and it's
> >> people, and to someone whose mind isn't imprisoned by dogmatic beliefs -
> >> yes.
> >
> > How can a nationalist have an 'encompassing knowledge'?
>
> Grew up with Serbs and Muslims and have members of those nations as
> relatives. Know just about everything there is to know about the history and
> politics of the region.
Unfortunately, that isn't qualifying criteria. One needs understanding too.
If you tell me you understand the you really cannot be a nationalist.
> >> > Then you can stop arguing the Croat cause.
> >>
> >> And you can stop arguing the Muslim cause.
> >
> > He, he. I'm not - that is the accusation of the Croat nationalist.
>
> I'm saying that you are. You are saying that you are not. It's an impasse.
Indeed. You're a Croat; I'm a bleeding heart liberal scorned by both Serbs and
Croats. I love it :))
> >> > His excellent book dealt with the extremist religious reasoning of both
> Serbs
> >> and
> >> > Croats for their attempts at genocide on the Bosnian muslims.
> >>
> >> No genocide committed by Croats on the Muslims.
> >
> > According to the UN articles, genocide was carried out by the Croats and Serbs
> on
> > Bosnian muslims.
>
> Incorrect. No court has ever brought down such a global decision which
> implies collective guilt.
And neither did I mean this as you already know I have an acquaintance with the ICTY
remit.
> What is correct is that some individuals committed crimes in certain areas which >
were interpreted as being genocidal in nature as per the UN charter.
Milosevic and several other of his henchmen have been charged with genocide against
the Kosovar Albanians as a whole unless I'm mistaken.
Now, I can't remember the exact wording of the indictments against Mladic et al but
I'll have to check it out again. However, I'm giving an interpretation not recording
the facts which you are doing vis-a-vis, Bosnia.
Nobody has been convicted of genocide from ex-Yugo....as of yet.
> >> > Why don't you read it some time so that you have credibility when talking
> >> about
> >> > Sells?
> >>
> >> I've read what's on his site, shrugged and moved on. Nothing I hadn't seen
> >> before in any of the SDA publications.
> >
> > I doubt you will you find the explanations and analysis for the justification
> of
> > genocide by both Serb and Croats as elucidated by Sells in any SDA
> publications.
>
> No genocide.
'Tudjman's "Europeanization" was a euphemism, like "ethnic cleansing," for the
annihilation of Slavic muslim people and culture and the creation of pure Christian
states on the rubble of the once multireligous Bosnia.'
/The Bridge Betrayed/ - _Michael Sells_ p.97
United Nations Genocide Convention (in force 12 January 1951)
Article 2:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious
group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about
its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
http://www.isg-ags.org/definitions/def_genocide.html
There are several other definitions also on that page.
'The critical element is the presence of an "intent to destroy", which can be either
"in whole or in part", groups defined in terms of nationality, ethnicity, race or
religion.'
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/gendef.htm
> > Of course, the only way you can prove this is by reading his book.
>
> The onus is on you to prove that "genocide was carried out by THE Croats".
I'm not attempting to do this. No nation as such has intended to commit genocide
against another: some leaders yes and some ordinary members may be more enthusiastic
than others. If you think that I'm trying to do this, then you have misunderstood me.
And this isn't what Sells has done also.
> >> >> he is a Muslim victimologist
> >> >
> >> > No such concept - invented by Serb and Croat genocidists.
> >>
> >> Victimology is a branch of history that deals with research into human
> >> casualties. There are Serb, Croat, Muslim, Armenian, Jewish (insert any
> >> nation) victimologists.
> >
> > Victimology is *not* a branch of history and is not a historical concept.
>
> Victimology is a social science
I see...a new social science now.
Ha!
> focused on victims of crime and abuse. Those
> historians that focus exclusively on researching historical occurences of
> genocide, victimisation and abuse of power are hence nothing more that
> victimologists. It isn't a derogatory term, but an accurate description of
> what it is that they do.
Do I have to repeat myself again?
There is no such concept and pull the other one that it isn't intended to be
derogatory.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010505...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
My newsserver is fucked.
>>> Which would be according to what criteria?
>>
>> Just off the top of my head:
>>
>> (1) Have no links (family, friends, business associates) with any of the
>> ethnic communities from former Yu
>> (2) Have no ideological bias, eg. Socialists & Marxists from the west have
>> sided with the Serbs and Milosevic because they saw them as the last
>> bastions of communism...and saw all other nations as puppets of the USA
>> (3) Spent some time living with, and observing all the communities.
>>
>> I know that I'm too strict and I've basically ruled everyone out.
>
>Yes, you have. Everybody is excluded. Those that are non-ex-Yugo cannot have a
>'non-biased' opinion as they would have to travel to the region and live and
>talk to
>the inhabitants.
Live among, talk to and observe all the communities, but without developing
an attachment to, or allying themselves with any one group.
> >> >> And the charge is?
> >>>
> >>> You don't see any connection there?
> >>
> >> No.
>>
>> You don't want to see it.
>
>I can see what you are saying but you think that this is somehow crucial to
>explaining Sell's position.
>
>I don't.
Just one of the pieces of the puzzle.
> >> To deduce he is
> >> not you need
> >> to find something which proves he does not have credibility.
>
>> You mean flat out catch him lying? He is not that stupid, his agit-prop
>> works in much subtler ways. His work is totally skewed in portraying just
>> one side as absolute victims. In order to achieve something like that, all
>> you have to do is expose and take the other side's crimes to a new level and
>> keep hush-hush about your so called victim's "little" indiscretions.
>
>The book is not skewed: it dovetails with the numerous other books and writings
>I
>have seen on the topic, countless NGO and UN reports.
>
>The Bosnian muslims were very clearly persecuted in a systematic and organised
>way by
>both Serbs and Croats.
As were the Croats of Central Bosnia, who endured a fate only marginally
better than the Muslims of eastern Bosnia.
>This is not to say that individual muslims didn't commit war crimes because
>they
>clearly did.
This distinction between "systematic & organised" & "individual" crimes
(where only supposedly individual, isolated and distressed and or drunken
members of the ABiH could have committed war crimes) is an SDA invention.
Non-SDA Muslim controlled papers acknowledge that this is false.
> This is unlike the muslim's strategy.
Which consisted of leaving a small minority of non-Muslims in some cities
and showing them off like zoo animals. All that proves is that the Muslims
made up for their lack of guns by using their brains.
Mind you, I am pretty satisfied with the way that Croats were treated in
large cities like Sarajevo, Tuzla and Bihac (where Croats were an
insignificant and quiet minority).....but in cities like Bugojno, Konjic,
Travnik (where it was more like 60:40) etc....some of the worst crimes of
the Bosnian war were committed with Croats as the victims and the Muslims as
the villains.
>I defy you to find one utterance that any muslim leader of the BiH has made
>which
>justifies ethnic cleansing, genocide or anything of that nature.
Actions speak louder than words:
http://jagor.srce.hr/zatocenici/video_en.htm
> >> I've asked this question on numerous occasions to both Serbs and Croats
> >> (who to a man
> >> have never read the excellent Bridge Betrayed - 'cept Frank) and have had
>>>nothing
> >> back at all.
>>
>> Why would I read something that describes people, places and events that I
>> have experienced first hand?
>
>Because it may enlighten you? You know have a different perspective on the
>situation
>might mellow your nationalist certainty.
I don't need that shit. I do my research by reading Muslim & Serb books and
newspapers, discussing issues with Serbs and Muslims etc, because in the end
we will have to live with them as the neighbours - and not with certain
westerners hell bent on getting fame, royalties and gratification. I don't
have much respect for self proclaimed "Balkan experts".
>> I examined his site, read what he wrote on
>> Usenet, and even communicated with him.....I know where he is coming from.
>> He's an insignificant little man who will change nothing....hardly a thorn
>> in anyone's side.
>
>Insulting now? I've also communicated with him remember and read his posts on
>Usenet
>(ha, I've even read the exchanges he had with the scum, Amir).
They should have gotten on just fine, considering the fact that Amir is a
Muslim.
>You need someone with credibility to write your story (mind you - don't expect
>to
>like what is written) because it's definitely true that your people do not have
>much
>a voice. That's because your struggle is several magnitudes smaller than what
>happened between the Serbs extinguishing of muslim culture in the territories
>they
>took.
Yeah well, it's not going to happen - for a multitude of reasons.
>Maybe it will take years for the suffering of Croats to be told in a reasoned
>verifiable way: lists of Croat dead and accusations that muslims killed Croats
>on a
>4-1 ratio ain't gonna wash.
Those figures relate to civilian and POW deaths. When you add military
casualties to those, then the ratios change significantly, considering the
unsophisticated ABiH WW1-like strategy.
> > It's very, very feeble.
>>
>> Just the kind of crap Serb TV was showing in 1991.
>
>I haven't seen the picture but is the photo made up. I've had a quick look but
>can't
>find it.
Mea culpa. It's on Vanja Filipovic's (one of several Bosnian Muslim
"assistants" to Sells....one of the others is a girl by the name of Aida)
site of some "Bosnian" foundation, or some shit like that.....the page uses
Sells' material and writings:
http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov/home2.html
>> No genocide.
>
>'Tudjman's "Europeanization" was a euphemism, like "ethnic cleansing," for the
>annihilation of Slavic muslim people and culture and the creation of pure
>Christian
>states on the rubble of the once multireligous Bosnia.'
>/The Bridge Betrayed/ - _Michael Sells_ p.97
Riiight. Ignoring the fact that the comment was made in late 1995, these
attempts at annihilation were especially evident in 92, 94 and 95 when HVO
and ABiH fought side by side (even in 1993 they were allied in a few
cities), when Muslims were armed and fed by the Republic of Croatia, when
Croatia allowed arms shipments from Islamic states to be delivered to the
Muslims through Croatian territory, by accepting several hundred thousand
Muslim refugees and so on.
"The ambassadors were exchanged in 1992 and early 1993. On 19 January, 1993,
the first ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived in Zagreb, and before
that, the Croatian ambassador was already in Sarajevo. Also, on 14 June,
1993, President Tudjman visited Sarajevo, and throughout this period, they
never interrupted their diplomatic ties. The Croatian parliament adopted at
least two declarations: One is D106 of 30 April, 1993. In this declaration
of the Croatian parliament, Croatia says: "The historic friendship of Croats
and Muslims is a prerequisite for the survival of both of these people in
this region. It is the foundation for sovereignty and territorial integrity
of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its future." This is the declaration of the
Croatian parliament which speaks about the territorial integrity and
sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Also, Exhibit D107 of 30 June, 1993 where
Croatia supports the internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina, its
sovereignty, and territorial integrity. So much on that issue, and we will
further argue that these two countries were allies throughout."
Tihomir Blaskic's trial transcripts: Mario Nobilo's closing arguments.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> >Insulting now? I've also communicated with him remember and read his posts on
> >Usenet
> >(ha, I've even read the exchanges he had with the scum, Amir).
>
> They should have gotten on just fine, considering the fact that Amir is a
> Muslim.
I shall reply to the rest of the post later.
I've read every one of old Amir's posts and while he certainly pretends to be a
muslim occasionally, he's clearly Serbian. He may have some muslim parentage - who
knows. But no muslim is going to be pro-Serb, hang out with 'Miller' who was
vehemently anti-muslim and be the hysterical anti-Croat that he was.
Come on - I'm not from the region and even I can see through that charade.
Why he pretended to be muslim I don't know but he dropped that little game later.
And Sells has absolutely nothing in common with Amir.
I've also read every post that Sells has made and he comes across as someone with
integrity, humanity and even-handiness and not only a brilliant arguer but extremely
well-read, knowledgable and occasionally amusing.
Frankly, his opponents couldn't hold a candle to him which is why when they lost all
the arguments they spent most of the time personally insulting him.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010513...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
> In article <fywL6.446$mA4....@ozemail.com.au>, raj...@ozemail.com.au (Marko
> Njavro) wrote:
>
>> >Insulting now? I've also communicated with him remember and read his posts
on
>> >Usenet
>> >(ha, I've even read the exchanges he had with the scum, Amir).
>>
>> They should have gotten on just fine, considering the fact that Amir is a
>> Muslim.
>
> I shall reply to the rest of the post later.
>
> I've read every one of old Amir's posts and while he certainly pretends to be
a
> muslim occasionally, he's clearly Serbian. He may have some muslim parentage -
who
> knows.
His old man is a Muslim from Sandzak and his mother is a Serb from Belgrade.
> But no muslim is going to be pro-Serb, hang out with 'Miller' who was
> vehemently anti-muslim and be the hysterical anti-Croat that he was.
He's what we call a Yugo nostalgic and doesn't hate Muslims and Croats as
such, but those that he sees as being responsible for the break up of
Yugoslavia and especially hates Yanks and Brits.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010513...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
> > In article <fywL6.446$mA4....@ozemail.com.au>, raj...@ozemail.com.au (Marko
> > Njavro) wrote:
> >
> >> >Insulting now? I've also communicated with him remember and read his posts
> on
> >> >Usenet
> >> >(ha, I've even read the exchanges he had with the scum, Amir).
> >>
> >> They should have gotten on just fine, considering the fact that Amir is a
> >> Muslim.
> >
> > I shall reply to the rest of the post later.
> >
> > I've read every one of old Amir's posts and while he certainly pretends to be
> a
> > muslim occasionally, he's clearly Serbian. He may have some muslim parentage -
> who
> > knows.
>
> His old man is a Muslim from Sandzak and his mother is a Serb from Belgrade.
How do you know?
> > But no muslim is going to be pro-Serb, hang out with 'Miller' who was
> > vehemently anti-muslim and be the hysterical anti-Croat that he was.
>
> He's what we call a Yugo nostalgic
I've noticed.
> and doesn't hate Muslims and Croats as
> such, but those that he sees as being responsible for the break up of
> Yugoslavia
I don't think he's ever criticised muslims but can't seem to be able suppress his
hate for Croats
> and especially hates Yanks and Brits.
He, he. he must have had a problem when he was at Uni in London then.
Not much expression for his hatred unless you count whispering in the student union
bar :))
------------------------------------------------------------
Robert the 'erbert
> ----------
> In article <memo.20010505...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
> robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>
>
> My newsserver is fucked.
>
> >>> Which would be according to what criteria?
> >>
> >> Just off the top of my head:
> >>
> >> (1) Have no links (family, friends, business associates) with any of the
> >> ethnic communities from former Yu
> >> (2) Have no ideological bias, eg. Socialists & Marxists from the west have
> >> sided with the Serbs and Milosevic because they saw them as the last
> >> bastions of communism...and saw all other nations as puppets of the USA
> >> (3) Spent some time living with, and observing all the communities.
> >>
> >> I know that I'm too strict and I've basically ruled everyone out.
> >
> >Yes, you have. Everybody is excluded. Those that are non-ex-Yugo cannot have a
> >'non-biased' opinion as they would have to travel to the region and live and
> >talk to
> >the inhabitants.
>
> Live among, talk to and observe all the communities, but without developing
> an attachment to, or allying themselves with any one group.
So Sells who has an interest in Islam is not qualified in your eyes to bring
attention to the genocide that was committed on muslims?
Most decent people ally themselves with the victims of genocide not the architects.
> > >> >> And the charge is?
> > >>>
> > >>> You don't see any connection there?
> > >>
> > >> No.
> >>
> >> You don't want to see it.
> >
> >I can see what you are saying but you think that this is somehow crucial to
> >explaining Sell's position.
> >
> >I don't.
>
> Just one of the pieces of the puzzle.
What puzzle?
> > >> To deduce he is
> > >> not you need
> > >> to find something which proves he does not have credibility.
> >
> >> You mean flat out catch him lying? He is not that stupid, his agit-prop
> >> works in much subtler ways. His work is totally skewed in portraying just
> >> one side as absolute victims. In order to achieve something like that, all
> >> you have to do is expose and take the other side's crimes to a new level and
> >> keep hush-hush about your so called victim's "little" indiscretions.
> >
> >The book is not skewed: it dovetails with the numerous other books and writings
> >I
> >have seen on the topic, countless NGO and UN reports.
> >
> >The Bosnian muslims were very clearly persecuted in a systematic and organised
> >way by
> >both Serbs and Croats.
>
> As were the Croats of Central Bosnia, who endured a fate only marginally
> better than the Muslims of eastern Bosnia.
Care to explain?
> >This is not to say that individual muslims didn't commit war crimes because
> >they
> >clearly did.
>
> This distinction between "systematic & organised" & "individual" crimes
> (where only supposedly individual, isolated and distressed and or drunken
> members of the ABiH could have committed war crimes) is an SDA invention.
No it isn't: it's a clear legal point.
> Non-SDA Muslim controlled papers acknowledge that this is false.
See above.
> > This is unlike the muslim's strategy.
>
> Which consisted of leaving a small minority of non-Muslims in some cities
> and showing them off like zoo animals. All that proves is that the Muslims
> made up for their lack of guns by using their brains.
On the other hand, the muslims on the whole didn't feel the need to systematically
oppress Serbs and Croats.
Even the evidence of multi-cultural respect for others, little evidence of destroying
cultural buildings is somehow distorted into some grand conspiracy to get sympathy
from outsiders.
> Mind you, I am pretty satisfied with the way that Croats were treated in
> large cities like Sarajevo, Tuzla and Bihac (where Croats were an
> insignificant and quiet minority).....but in cities like Bugojno, Konjic,
> Travnik (where it was more like 60:40) etc....some of the worst crimes of
> the Bosnian war were committed with Croats as the victims and the Muslims as
> the villains.
I'm sure we've looked at this before but I'll have to look again.
In any case, I condemn every single crime against humanity committed by any
individual. However, this has nothing to do with the accusation that leaders of the
HDZ were guilty of genocide IMO.
> >I defy you to find one utterance that any muslim leader of the BiH has made
> >which
> >justifies ethnic cleansing, genocide or anything of that nature.
>
> Actions speak louder than words:
>
> http://jagor.srce.hr/zatocenici/video_en.htm
Er...Mujahideen video clips?
Is this the best you can do?
> > >> I've asked this question on numerous occasions to both Serbs and Croats
> > >> (who to a man
> > >> have never read the excellent Bridge Betrayed - 'cept Frank) and have had
> >>>nothing
> > >> back at all.
> >>
> >> Why would I read something that describes people, places and events that I
> >> have experienced first hand?
> >
> >Because it may enlighten you? You know have a different perspective on the
> >situation
> >might mellow your nationalist certainty.
>
> I don't need that shit.
Quite clearly - you are nationalist.
> I do my research by reading Muslim & Serb books and
> newspapers, discussing issues with Serbs and Muslims etc, because in the end
> we will have to live with them as the neighbours - and not with certain
> westerners hell bent on getting fame, royalties and gratification. I don't
> have much respect for self proclaimed "Balkan experts".
I'm sure you don't: ultimately you believe in might is right and the power of the
gun. Western 'Balkan experts' would only get in the way of ethnic cleansing, genocide
or the like.
Without the 'Balkan experts' there would be no BiH. As simple as that and you know
it.
> >You need someone with credibility to write your story (mind you - don't expect
> >to
> >like what is written) because it's definitely true that your people do not have
> >much
> >a voice. That's because your struggle is several magnitudes smaller than what
> >happened between the Serbs extinguishing of muslim culture in the territories
> >they
> >took.
>
> Yeah well, it's not going to happen - for a multitude of reasons.
I don't see why not - you may be exaggerating the suffering of Croats at the hands of
muslims (IMO) but it doesn't mean that there isn't a story to tell.
> >Maybe it will take years for the suffering of Croats to be told in a reasoned
> >verifiable way: lists of Croat dead and accusations that muslims killed Croats
> >on a
> >4-1 ratio ain't gonna wash.
>
> Those figures relate to civilian and POW deaths. When you add military
> casualties to those, then the ratios change significantly, considering the
> unsophisticated ABiH WW1-like strategy.
I've always got a little laugh out of this so called accusation of WW1 strategy.
Not only will you concede that the ABiH had very little heavy guns/tanks etc.... the
Croats were the biggest suppliers of what lite weapons they received.
And then because they didn't have enough of these weapons you then condemn them for
fighting against either Croat or Serb aggression without these.
Ha!
> > > It's very, very feeble.
> >>
> >> Just the kind of crap Serb TV was showing in 1991.
> >
> >I haven't seen the picture but is the photo made up. I've had a quick look but
> >can't
> >find it.
>
> Mea culpa. It's on Vanja Filipovic's (one of several Bosnian Muslim
> "assistants" to Sells....one of the others is a girl by the name of Aida)
> site of some "Bosnian" foundation, or some shit like that.....the page uses
> Sells' material and writings:
>
> http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov/home2.html
So do you dispute the authenticity of the photo?
> >> No genocide.
> >
> >'Tudjman's "Europeanization" was a euphemism, like "ethnic cleansing," for the
> >annihilation of Slavic muslim people and culture and the creation of pure
> >Christian
> >states on the rubble of the once multireligous Bosnia.'
> >/The Bridge Betrayed/ - _Michael Sells_ p.97
>
> Riiight. Ignoring the fact that the comment was made in late 1995, these
> attempts at annihilation were especially evident in 92, 94 and 95 when HVO
> and ABiH fought side by side (even in 1993 they were allied in a few
> cities),
No disputing this.
> when Muslims were armed and fed by the Republic of Croatia, when
> Croatia allowed arms shipments from Islamic states to be delivered to the
> Muslims through Croatian territory,
With various conditions which the Bosniaks weak as they were had no choice but to
accept.
> by accepting several hundred thousand
> Muslim refugees and so on.
Fuck, so what? All this proves is that Croats aren't racists or genocidal maniacs.
It certainly doesn't let the HDZ off the hook for operations in BiH.
> "The ambassadors were exchanged in 1992 and early 1993. On 19 January, 1993,
> the first ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived in Zagreb, and before
> that, the Croatian ambassador was already in Sarajevo. Also, on 14 June,
> 1993, President Tudjman visited Sarajevo, and throughout this period, they
> never interrupted their diplomatic ties. The Croatian parliament adopted at
> least two declarations: One is D106 of 30 April, 1993. In this declaration
> of the Croatian parliament, Croatia says: "The historic friendship of Croats
> and Muslims is a prerequisite for the survival of both of these people in
> this region. It is the foundation for sovereignty and territorial integrity
> of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its future." This is the declaration of the
> Croatian parliament which speaks about the territorial integrity and
> sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Also, Exhibit D107 of 30 June, 1993 where
> Croatia supports the internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina, its
> sovereignty, and territorial integrity. So much on that issue, and we will
> further argue that these two countries were allies throughout."
>
> Tihomir Blaskic's trial transcripts: Mario Nobilo's closing arguments.
I'll attend to this later. Plenty to say you see.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010514...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
In the former YU, Amir is exclusively a Muslim name. He has used that name
on his e-mail address for a few years. Furthermore, he revealed his ancestry
in a discussion in Serbian, to one of his allies. His political views are
consistent with the views of many from mixed marriages.
>> and doesn't hate Muslims and Croats as
>> such, but those that he sees as being responsible for the break up of
>> Yugoslavia
>
> I don't think he's ever criticised muslims but can't seem to be able suppress
his
> hate for Croats
He's taken the Muslim side on more than one occasion, but when I asked him
how he felt about the Serb-Muslim conflict - there was no reply.
>> and especially hates Yanks and Brits.
>
> He, he. he must have had a problem when he was at Uni in London then.
>
> Not much expression for his hatred unless you count whispering in the
> student union
> bar :))
BTW: On a totally unrelated matter, what kind of weather can one expect in
London between September and November? Lots of rain I suppose, but how
fuckin' cold?
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010514...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> Live among, talk to and observe all the communities, but without developing
>> an attachment to, or allying themselves with any one group.
>
> So Sells who has an interest in Islam is not qualified in your eyes to bring
> attention to the genocide that was committed on muslims?
Oh, he's certainly qualified to present information on Islamic places of
worship and how they fared between 92-95. That's fine by me. His foray into
history, politics and war is pure, but sophisticated propaganda.
>> As were the Croats of Central Bosnia, who endured a fate only marginally
>> better than the Muslims of eastern Bosnia.
>
> Care to explain?
Travnik, Bugojno and Zenica. Almost the entire Croat population of those
towns was expelled through terror. Vitez, Novi Travnik, Busovaca, Zepce,
Kiseljak. These five held out but through great sacrifice and civilian
casualties due to shelling and snipers.
>> >This is not to say that individual muslims didn't commit war crimes because
>> >they
>> >clearly did.
>>
>> This distinction between "systematic & organised" & "individual" crimes
>> (where only supposedly individual, isolated and distressed and or drunken
>> members of the ABiH could have committed war crimes) is an SDA invention.
>
> No it isn't: it's a clear legal point.
Not so. According to non-SDA press (eg. Dani), whole units of the ABiH are
under investigation....those being "Sedma Muslimanska Brigada" (7th Muslim
brigade), "Deseta brdska brigada" (10th mountain brigade), Chiefs of Staff
Sefer Halilovic, Rasim Delic, General Fikret Muslimovic, Colonel Zulfikar
Alispaga, and so on.
>> > This is unlike the muslim's strategy.
>>
>> Which consisted of leaving a small minority of non-Muslims in some cities
>> and showing them off like zoo animals. All that proves is that the Muslims
>> made up for their lack of guns by using their brains.
>
> On the other hand, the muslims on the whole didn't feel the need to
systematically
> oppress Serbs and Croats.
In Muslim dominated big cities, fairly tolerant (most of the world's press
was situated in Sarajevo) - but in smaller towns and in rural areas where
the split was more like 50:50, a totally different story.
> Even the evidence of multi-cultural respect for others, little evidence of
> destroying
> cultural buildings is somehow distorted into some grand conspiracy to get
sympathy
> from outsiders.
In large cities only.
>> >I defy you to find one utterance that any muslim leader of the BiH has made
>> >which
>> >justifies ethnic cleansing, genocide or anything of that nature.
>>
>> Actions speak louder than words:
>>
>> http://jagor.srce.hr/zatocenici/video_en.htm
>
> Er...Mujahideen video clips?
>
> Is this the best you can do?
Err, no. Video clips of a supposedly multicultural (author of the Islamic
Declaration) president of BiH, Alija Izetbegovic, visiting his favourite
unit - "El mujahedin", and engaged in warm dialogue with an Islamic fanatic
terrorist (commander of "El mujahedin) wanted by Interpol. That kind of
behaviour by "my" president sends me a chilling message, and I'm glad that
his and Arab "vision" of Bosnia was forever torn to bits on approaches to
Vitez and Busovaca.
>> I don't need that shit.
>
> Quite clearly - you are nationalist.
Nationalist because I regularly have civilised discussions with Muslims and
Serbs and try to establish some sort of a common ground? What kind of a
Croat nationalist would have civilised and productive discussions with
people like Amir, Vojvoda, Frank, Boris.....and a host of Muslims?
>> I do my research by reading Muslim & Serb books and
>> newspapers, discussing issues with Serbs and Muslims etc, because in the end
>> we will have to live with them as the neighbours - and not with certain
>> westerners hell bent on getting fame, royalties and gratification. I don't
>> have much respect for self proclaimed "Balkan experts".
>
> I'm sure you don't: ultimately you believe in might is right and the power of
the
> gun. Western 'Balkan experts' would only get in the way of ethnic
> cleansing, genocide
> or the like.
Incorrect. I believe in applying consistent standards when evaluating
history and current affairs.
> Without the 'Balkan experts' there would be no BiH. As simple as that and you
know
> it.
Without Croatia, BiH would have been extinguished in 92, or partitioned in
1993 (Croat dogged defence of Central Bosnian enclaves prevented the
creation of 3 ethnically clean swathes of territory - first necessary
condition for partition), and without Croatia, war would have not ended in
1995. The USA only really got involved in 1995, and it certainly had nothing
to do with the self proclaimed experts.
>> >You need someone with credibility to write your story (mind you - don't
expect
>> >to
>> >like what is written) because it's definitely true that your people do not
have
>> >much
>> >a voice. That's because your struggle is several magnitudes smaller than
what
>> >happened between the Serbs extinguishing of muslim culture in the
territories
>> >they
>> >took.
>>
>> Yeah well, it's not going to happen - for a multitude of reasons.
>
> I don't see why not
Because most people haven't even heard of the Muslim-Croat war, and most
history books gloss over this issue in one or two paragraphs and are
unwilling to research it further. Most I saw anyone write of this was Marcus
Tanner, who devoted a couple of pages to it.
>> >Maybe it will take years for the suffering of Croats to be told in a
reasoned
>> >verifiable way: lists of Croat dead and accusations that muslims killed
Croats
>> >on a
>> >4-1 ratio ain't gonna wash.
>>
>> Those figures relate to civilian and POW deaths. When you add military
>> casualties to those, then the ratios change significantly, considering the
>> unsophisticated ABiH WW1-like strategy.
>
> I've always got a little laugh out of this so called accusation of WW1
strategy.
Those that were used as cannon fodder by their incompetent commanders
weren't laughing..
> Not only will you concede that the ABiH had very little heavy guns/tanks
> etc.... the
> Croats were the biggest suppliers of what lite weapons they received.
In Central Bosnia, Croat enclaves were completely surrounded and obviously
no supplies could get through. The ABiH already had a huge advantage in
manpower and when Croats were deprived of a weapons flow, the Muslims
clearly had the edge.
> And then because they didn't have enough of these weapons you then condemn
> them for
> fighting against either Croat or Serb aggression without these.
I don't condemn them, I'm just saying that their officers were no good and
that ABiH losses were so large that even in Sarajevo there was a lot of dark
humour sparked by this.
>> > > It's very, very feeble.
>> >>
>> >> Just the kind of crap Serb TV was showing in 1991.
>> >
>> >I haven't seen the picture but is the photo made up. I've had a quick look
but
>> >can't
>> >find it.
>>
>> Mea culpa. It's on Vanja Filipovic's (one of several Bosnian Muslim
>> "assistants" to Sells....one of the others is a girl by the name of Aida)
>> site of some "Bosnian" foundation, or some shit like that.....the page uses
>> Sells' material and writings:
>>
>> http://www.students.haverford.edu/vfilipov/home2.html
>
> So do you dispute the authenticity of the photo?
I don't see a "Nazi uniform", I don't see any HVO insignia and I don't see
anything that indicates that was in Prozor.
>> when Muslims were armed and fed by the Republic of Croatia, when
>> Croatia allowed arms shipments from Islamic states to be delivered to the
>> Muslims through Croatian territory,
>
> With various conditions which the Bosniaks weak as they were had no choice but
to
> accept.
So we were arming someone we were meant to be "annihilating"?
>> by accepting several hundred thousand
>> Muslim refugees and so on.
>
> Fuck, so what? All this proves is that Croats aren't racists or genocidal
maniacs.
It wasn't up to Croats to accept them but up to the Republic of Croatia,
whose president was you know who.....
> It certainly doesn't let the HDZ off the hook for operations in BiH.
Certainly doesn't let them off the hook for stupidity, incompetence, war
crimes etc. Still, that was the best we had at the time. I shudder to think
what would have happened with someone else at the helm.
>> "The ambassadors were exchanged in 1992 and early 1993. On 19 January, 1993,
>> the first ambassador of Bosnia-Herzegovina arrived in Zagreb, and before
>> that, the Croatian ambassador was already in Sarajevo. Also, on 14 June,
>> 1993, President Tudjman visited Sarajevo, and throughout this period, they
>> never interrupted their diplomatic ties. The Croatian parliament adopted at
>> least two declarations: One is D106 of 30 April, 1993. In this declaration
>> of the Croatian parliament, Croatia says: "The historic friendship of Croats
>> and Muslims is a prerequisite for the survival of both of these people in
>> this region. It is the foundation for sovereignty and territorial integrity
>> of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its future." This is the declaration of the
>> Croatian parliament which speaks about the territorial integrity and
>> sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Also, Exhibit D107 of 30 June, 1993 where
>> Croatia supports the internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina, its
>> sovereignty, and territorial integrity. So much on that issue, and we will
>> further argue that these two countries were allies throughout."
>>
>> Tihomir Blaskic's trial transcripts: Mario Nobilo's closing arguments.
>
> I'll attend to this later. Plenty to say you see.
Cannot wait.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
Ta. I can see why those from mixed marriages would support the former Yugo.
> >> and doesn't hate Muslims and Croats as
> >> such, but those that he sees as being responsible for the break up of
> >> Yugoslavia
> >
> > I don't think he's ever criticised muslims but can't seem to be able suppress
> his
> > hate for Croats
>
> He's taken the Muslim side on more than one occasion, but when I asked him
> how he felt about the Serb-Muslim conflict - there was no reply.
> >> and especially hates Yanks and Brits.
> >
> > He, he. he must have had a problem when he was at Uni in London then.
> >
> > Not much expression for his hatred unless you count whispering in the
> > student union
> > bar :))
>
> BTW: On a totally unrelated matter, what kind of weather can one expect in
> London between September and November? Lots of rain I suppose, but how
> fuckin' cold?
In between the rain, it is overcast :(
Seriously though, London has very mild weather. Sept is warm, Oct cooler and Nov
cold. But you will be unlucky to see the daytime temperature go below 10 degrees in
Nov during the day. Just bring an overcoat.
Marko Njavro
In article <memo.20010515...@notlaw.compulink.co.uk>,
robbie@come_in_no.9.net (Robert the 'erbert) wrote:
>> BTW: On a totally unrelated matter, what kind of weather can one expect in
>> London between September and November? Lots of rain I suppose, but how
>> fuckin' cold?
>
> In between the rain, it is overcast :(
>
> Seriously though, London has very mild weather. Sept is warm, Oct cooler and
Nov
> cold. But you will be unlucky to see the daytime temperature go below 10
> degrees in
> Nov during the day. Just bring an overcoat.
Very good news indeed. Thank you.
Robert the 'erbert
Njavro) wrote:
Have a nice trip.