ustase and cetnici
Dragana Pavlovic
buys time for Slovenian independence" which appeared on Jul 8th.
" What could happen in Bosnia-Hercegovina if a territorial struggle
erupts between Serbia and Croatia is best illustrated by the atrocities
that occurred in a civil war that paralleled World War II.
Even the Nazis were forced to step in to halt progroms by pro-German
Croatian extremists known as Ustashi, who butchered hundreds of
thousands of Serbs in a bizarre plan to establish a pure Roman Catholic
state stretching from Croatia, through Bosnia to the banks of the Danube
near Belgrade, the Serbian capital."
Note what they say in the second paragraph. I think this is an excellent
explanation of why Ustashe are "the bad guys".
I don't think that whoever keeps bringing up Cetniks is justified in grouping
them in the same category with Ustashe. To the best of my knowledge, Cetniks
defended, not persecuted.
It takes a long time for hatred born through racial prejudices to die out.
Witness the US. Civil war has ended a long time ago, but the prejudices
which prompted it are unfortunately still alive. And that war was much
longer ago than WWII. So is it any surprise that Serbs are fleeing in cold
terror from Croatia today?
Dragana
jack lupic
DP>The following excerpt appeared in the UPI article called "EC-brokered plan
DP>buys time for Slovenian independence" which appeared on Jul 8th.
DP>" What could happen in Bosnia-Hercegovina if a territorial struggle
DP>erupts between Serbia and Croatia is best illustrated by the atrocities
DP>that occurred in a civil war that paralleled World War II.
DP> Even the Nazis were forced to step in to halt progroms by pro-German
DP>Croatian extremists known as Ustashi, who butchered hundreds of
DP>thousands of Serbs in a bizarre plan to establish a pure Roman Catholic
DP>state stretching from Croatia, through Bosnia to the banks of the Danube
DP>near Belgrade, the Serbian capital."
History is repeating itself but this time it's the Chetniks with the support
of JNA slaugtering, cutting-off heads, killing innocent Croatian farmers
working in their fields. This is part of a bizzare plan to establish pure
Great Country of Serbia under the disguise of Yugoslavian umbrella. The plan
has already ruined the tourist industry on the Adriatic and Plitvice and has
made many Croats run for their lives from their own homes in Croatia. Why
doesen't anyone talk about the bands of Chetnik terrorist renegades which
are each day bringing more death and despair to innocent people? And take
a note: this is not World War II, this is happening right now. There are
many photographs floating around that prove the comitted attrocities.
Have a good day,
---
~ DeLuxe} 1.12 #1435 ~
--
Canada Remote Systems. Toronto, Ontario
NorthAmeriNet Host
Zeljko Jericevic
On 19 Jul 1991 05:40:30 GMT, Jack Lupic wrote:
>
>... Why
>doesen't anyone talk about the bands of Chetnik terrorist renegades which
>are each day bringing more death and despair to innocent people? And take
>a note: this is not World War II, this is happening right now. There are
>many photographs floating around that prove the committed atrocities.
>
They do talk about it. Didn't you noticed the articles describing the Chetniks
as patriots and fighters against the fascists?
Your point, "... this is not World War II, this is happening right now." is the
right one. It looks like the Chetniks movement is a mainstream in Serbia. To justify
it, they have to be rehabilitated, while other people like Albanians, Croats,
Slovenes have to take a role of fascists, genocidal people, rebels etc.
The claims about sporadic, accidental and in retaliation only atrocities by
Chetniks are part of rehabilitation campaign. Did you ever heard about orthodox
priest Duric? Who can call his crimes unsystematic and nongenocidal?
I wish we can hear more from the Serbian people with the attitude like those mothers
entering parliament and demanding their sons back. They obviously figured out
where the dreams of grater Serbia lead to, and who is going to pay the price.
It looks like to me that in frenzy to justify the Chetniks, the Serbian people
are forgetting that those Chetniks are going to live with them, not with anybody else.
So far as I know, nobody is waring the Ustashe caps in Croatia, and I hope nobody
will. Ustahse are properly classified as extremist and their crimes are exposed.
Zeljko Jericevic
Zoran Duric
I would suggest that before getting involved into propaganda war everybody
checks his data (especially names, numbers and dates). While I do not
want get involved into discusion about this person I want to state his name,
it is DJUIC (or DJUJIC).
While I do not have (and never had) priests (or Chetniks) in my family,
some of my family members were killed by Ustashe. I simphatize
with 'non-Croats' in Croatia not because of some hate or want of revenge
on Croats (I have family members and very dear friends who are Croats), but
simply because of current Croatian goverment's lack of sensitivity for
feelings of the Serbs in Croatia.
I definitely do not think that anybody in Croatia today is responsible
for what happened 50 years ago, but I think that trying to prove that
genocide never happened is a terrible crime itself. I do not see what is
behind this tries.
So, PLEASE, everybody state your arguments and support them by some
facts which could be checked by a power lesser then the "God Almighty".
And, PLEASE, note that while Mr. Milosevic is a Serb, the Serbs and
Yugoslavs on this net are not his mouthpiece, but have their OWN views
which should be argued with and not drowned with racist remarks.
I got E-mail which said that Mr. H.H.'s opinions are shared by the
majority of Croats all over the world. While I am envious for that
amount of unity and total anonimity I feel sorry and afraid for my family
and friends in Yugoslavia.
Congratulations to Slovenians. You have won whatever future your nation
will meet. I hope that future generations of Slovenians will praise
you for that deed.
Regards,
Zoran Duric
P.S. While I agree with wish of some people to fight and prove themselves,
good way may be that all republic's goverments choose their champions
(if possible members of parlaments, representatives of ruling parties) and
let them fight. After that everybody should talk.
It should be obvious that if the war starts those who die will not
be Mr. Milosevic, or Mr. Tudjman or Mr. Seselj or
Mr. Djodan, but ordinary people who have nothing to do with all this madness.
Zeljko Jericevic
In article Message-ID: <50...@cvl.umd.edu>
Date: 19 Jul 1991 19:24:59 GMT Zoran Duric writes:
> ... but
>simply because of current Croatian government's lack of sensitivity for
>feelings of the Serbs in Croatia.
What is behind this lack of sensitivity? I am sure it is not killing of
Serbian people by the government of Croatia. On the other hand there is a
killing and property destruction by Chetniks, and it is not limited to
Croatian victims only. Actually, the first people targeted by Chetniks were
Serbs who didn't want to have anything with their views. Example: Director
of Hotel in Plitvice. Are you upset about things like that? I have not
seen any complains about it from the Serbs, in spite of that they "... have
their OWN views ..." as Zoran puts it.
>... but I think that trying to prove that
>genocide never happened is a terrible crime itself. I do not see what is
>behind this tries.
I agree, but who is trying to prove it? No official government policy in
that sense exists in Croatia.
Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
They are part of political life in Serbia. You can not say that for Ustashe
in Croatia. That is very important difference. Think about it.
>which should be argued with and not drowned with *racist* remarks.
And which one was that, PLEASE?
Thanks for correcting my spelling mistake. It was not my intention to
connect you in any way with butcher Dujic. Sorry about that.
Bogdan R Kosanovic
>Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
>They are part of political life in Serbia. You can not say that for Ustashe
>in Croatia. That is very important difference. Think about it.
I agree. Chetniks NEVER commited GENOCIDE, but Ustashe DID. Thus there is no
ways for Ustashe rehabilitation except in some NEW nazistic state !
Think about it.
Best Regards,
Bogdan
Dusan Iricanin
>Date: 19 Jul 1991 19:24:59 GMT Zoran Duric writes:
>
>> ... but
>>simply because of current Croatian government's lack of sensitivity for
>>feelings of the Serbs in Croatia.
>What is behind this lack of sensitivity? I am sure it is not killing of
same state symbols as during Croatian nazi pupet state when genocide
was done.
>Serbian people by the government of Croatia. On the other hand there is a
>killing and property destruction by Chetniks, and it is not limited to
>Croatian victims only. Actually, the first people targeted by Chetniks were
>Serbs who didn't want to have anything with their views. Example: Director
>of Hotel in Plitvice. Are you upset about things like that? I have not
-I am upset about such a thing, and would like to have more info about
that particular case together with source of info.
>seen any complains about it from the Serbs, in spite of that they "... have
>their OWN views ..." as Zoran puts it.
>
>>... but I think that trying to prove that
>>genocide never happened is a terrible crime itself. I do not see what is
>>behind this tries.
>I agree, but who is trying to prove it? No official government policy in
>that sense exists in Croatia.
-I have being watching debate on TV Belgrade several months ago. Some of
Croatian participants, eminent politicians and academics were trying to
cut the figures down up to 10 times! Of course, they are not officials,
but that is recognasible pattern.
>Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
-that is not true. Mr.Seselj have tried to organize Chetniks Party, but
he was stoped by the law. In fact, he spend some time in jail after that.
Mile Erlic
>In article <66...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> zel...@pauling.iaims.bcm.tmc.edu (Zeljko Jericevic) writes:
>>Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
>>They are part of political life in Serbia. You can not say that for Ustashe
>>in Croatia. That is very important difference. Think about it.
In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
Belgrade in the heart of Croatia. Indeed, anybody sanctioning the beligerent
acts of violence perpotrated by the Chetnik terrorists is in thought and soul
a terrorist himself.
>
>I agree. Chetniks NEVER commited GENOCIDE, but Ustashe DID. Thus there is no
>ways for Ustashe rehabilitation except in some NEW nazistic state !
By definition an "Ustasha Movement" is an "Insurrgent Movement" against
the existing legal structure. Since the only insurrgent movement in
Yugoslavia in 1991 is that of the Chetniks, then the only Ustashe
today in Yugoslavia are the Chetniks.
Note, the Chetnik Ustasha's have recently resorted to the killing
of Livestack in a cowardly attempt to starve the inhabitants of Slavonia.
They have also resorted to launching mortars in to the heart of Osijek
to terrorize the civixDlian inhabitants. Is this how Serbs wish to
protect Serbia. If not denounce the Chetnik Ustashe.
Regards, Mile
Bogdan R Kosanovic
mer...@sirius.UVic.CA (Mile Erlic) writes:
> In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
>I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
>do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia.
And Chetniks are doing whatever they doing inside the borders of Serbia.
> By definition an "Ustasha Movement" is an "Insurrgent Movement" against
>the existing legal structure.
Who defined such 'definition' ? Where did you find it ?
> Since the only insurrgent movement in
>Yugoslavia in 1991 is that of the Chetniks, then the only Ustashe
>today in Yugoslavia are the Chetniks.
This is the major stupidity I ever heard in my life and it could be
considered only as a good joke ('dobar fazon').
> Note, the Chetnik Ustasha's have recently resorted to the killing
>of Livestack in a cowardly attempt to starve the inhabitants of Slavonia.
>They have also resorted to launching mortars in to the heart of Osijek
>to terrorize the civixDlian inhabitants. Is this how Serbs wish to
>protect Serbia. If not denounce the Chetnik Ustashe.
Since 'Chetnik Ustashe' DOES NOT exist, I will consider your posting as
a nightmarish rumbling (or in Serbian: 'baljezganje').
Bogdan
P.S. Stupid answer on stupid posting:
Ide Mile, Lajkovackom prugom,
Lajkovackom prugom, ide Mile.
Ide Mile, gori mu cigara,
gori mu cigara, ide Mile.
Ide Mile, sa jos jednim drugom,
sa jos jednim drugom, ide Mile.
etc., etc., ...
Jack Lupic
>mer...@sirius.UVic.CA (Mile Erlic) writes:
>> In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
>>I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
>>do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
> ?????
>>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia.
>And Chetniks are doing whatever they doing inside the borders of Serbia
Do you consider Slavonia, Plitvice and and the area around Knin part of
Serbia? You just gave yourself away for what and who you really are.
I wonder how you would like if Croatia went 400km into Serbia and did
the same thing what the Hitlerian Chetniks are doing in Croatia. Not
that there are no Croatians in Serbia my Dear Bogdan, there are a few
hundred thousands. Wait until they start claiming areas in Serbia
which are rightfully theirs. Have I got your attention Bogdan?
Did you have a shave lately?
I shave every day.
Jack Lupic
Dusan Iricanin
>>In article <66...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> zel...@pauling.iaims.bcm.tmc.edu (Zeljko Jericevic) writes:
>>>Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
>>>They are part of political life in Serbia. You can not say that for Ustashe
>>>in Croatia. That is very important difference. Think about it.
>
> In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
>I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
>do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia. Indeed, anybody sanctioning the beligerent
>acts of violence perpotrated by the Chetnik terrorists is in thought and soul
>a terrorist himself.
>
a) the rehabilitation of Chetniks has never being done, and they are *not*
part of political life in Serbia.
Belgrade in the heart of Croatia"? Although I do not believe that Chetniks
exist nowadays, I will assume they do and like to ask You few questions
about quoted sentence:
1) how can You discriminate "Chetnik" from Serb living in that area
who is fighting for his right to live?
2) they cannot defend Serbia inside Croatia. They can defend Serbs
living inside Croatia. But, there must exist someone who attacks
those Serbs. And, who is that?
>>
>>I agree. Chetniks NEVER commited GENOCIDE, but Ustashe DID. Thus there is no
>>ways for Ustashe rehabilitation except in some NEW nazistic state !
>
> By definition an "Ustasha Movement" is an "Insurrgent Movement" against
>the existing legal structure. Since the only insurrgent movement in
>Yugoslavia in 1991 is that of the Chetniks, then the only Ustashe
>today in Yugoslavia are the Chetniks.
-facts please!
BTW, if Chetniks are rehabilited and part of political life, as You say,
how can they become "insurrgent movement"?
regards
Dusan Iricanin
retorically) a question: who attacks Serbs in Croatia?
Here is news flash:
=========================================================================
DIVERSANT GROUP GET COUGHT
Kostajnica, July 18, (TANJUG)
County secretariat of internal affairs (police HQ) Dvor na Uni issued
a statement:
Yesterday a diversant group was caught in a region of Samarica. Their
aim was poisoning a regional water system on the area of counties of
Glina, Petrinja and Dvor na Uni. Arrested diversants had: sniper
and automatic guns, bombs and 500 grams of poison. Their names are:
Djuro Lovrekovic, leader of the group, member of the "Zbor narode garde"
Petar Radosevic, member of the "HDZ", from Dragotinci village
Milan Stopar and
Stevo Ivanisevic, members of MUP Croatia.
====================================================end of news flash====
-knowing that "Zbor narodne garde" and "HDZ" are Croatian nationalist
organizations, having in mind recent reports of clashes between
Serbs and MUP Croatia and concerning the fact that counties of Glina,
Petrinja and Dvor na Uni have predominantly Serbian population, it is
easy to get the answer to the question.
Or, maybe they have selective poison which kills only invisible
Chetniks?
regards
Bogdan R Kosanovic
(Jack Lupic) writes:
>In article <154...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> bog...@neuronet.pitt.edu (Bogdan R. Kosanovic) writes:
>>In article <1991Jul20.1...@sol.UVic.CA>
>>mer...@sirius.UVic.CA (Mile Erlic) writes:
>>> In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
>>>I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
>>>do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
>> ?????
>>>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia.
>
>>And Chetniks are doing whatever they doing inside the borders of Serbia
>
>Do you consider Slavonia, Plitvice and and the area around Knin part of
>Serbia?
We'll see after the negotiations ...
> You just gave yourself away for what and who you really are.
I was never hiding. I am a Serb, and that is not a mistery.
>I wonder how you would like if Croatia went 400km into Serbia and did
>the same thing what the Hitlerian Chetniks are doing in Croatia.
_IF_ Chetniks were 'Hitlerian', can you answer following questions:
1. Why German forces organized more than 10 offensives against Chetniks
during the WWII ?
2. Why Hitler set the very same price on heads of both Mr. Draza
Mihajlovic (Chetnik's leader) and Tito (communist leader) during the
WWII ?
3. Why the Chetnik's movement was considered as the first resistance
movement in the Europe of WWII ?
Next time try a little bit harder. Otherwise, people will laugh at you.
> Not
>that there are no Croatians in Serbia my Dear Bogdan, there are a few
>hundred thousands.
I think that you made a mistake. I was always claiming there is lot of
Croats in Serbia, but some other (Croats on this net) were claiming Serbs
'purged' all of them out of Serbia. (What a stupidity).
> Wait until they start claiming areas in Serbia
>which are rightfully theirs.
According to WHAT international treaty ? (Maybe London treaty, 1915 ;-)
(Maybe Hitler promissed something to puppet Croatia, but I'm not sure
such a thing will be supported widely).
>Did you have a shave lately?
Why do you ask ? Are you afraid of person having beards ?
>I shave every day.
I am very pleased to hear such an intimate detail about your personal life
on this Wordly spread network.
Bogdan
Srdjan Mitrovic
>Serbs who didn't want to have anything with their views. Example: Director
Hmmm, it is already long ago, when this happened, isn't it, so I do
not remember the details. Correct me if it is not true that:
a) the director has been removed before the armed confrontation started and
before Krajina seceeded.
b) the earliest mentioning of Cetniks in Croatia has been several months later.
c) he has been forced by protest of local inhabitants who did not feel that
they represented them adequately (I think he was not only the director ??)
Regards
Srdjan
Dusan Iricanin
[deleted]
>
>Don't let this B.S. propaganda sway your judgement. Chetniks are RIGHT NOW
>comitting genocide in Croatia. Butchering farmers in the fields, bombing
>private houses and chasing away Serbian population from towns so that they
>can unleash acts of terror on the remaining Croatian population. As far as
>Ustashe are concerned, that is past. None of the Serbian posters here can
>in fact put any blame on Croatians right now so the only thing the have is
>bringing up the ghosts. Do they believe that this will serve as an excuse
>and carte-blanche for Chetnik's attacks happening right now?
>
>I want PROOF that right now there is such an organization in Croatia as
>Ustashe!!! Otherwise, the B.S. and propaganda only serves to justify
>the slaugter and gives legitimacy to Serbia's claim on Croatia. How
>come there are NO Croatians attacking any towns inside Serbia? Give
>me an answer please. How far can these lies go on. People reading this
>newsgroup can determine that for themselves.
>
>No regards for you Bogdan,
>Jack
-You have made many claims You don't have proof of. Please, cite when
and were did You find those info. Otherwise it becomes clear propaganda,
which I personally believe it is.
Please note: I do not claim ustache exist.
Please note: I claim chetniks do not exist. But, people (Serbians)
fleeing from their homes because of extrime nationalistic
Croatian state terror do exist.
no regards for You jack
Mile Erlic
>In article <1991Jul21.0...@blister.Solbourne.COM> ja...@blister.UUCP
>(Jack Lupic) writes:
>>In article <154...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> bog...@neuronet.pitt.edu (Bogdan R. Kosanovic) writes:
>>>In article <1991Jul20.1...@sol.UVic.CA>
>>>mer...@sirius.UVic.CA (Mile Erlic) writes:
>>>> In addition to Zeljko's comment I would like to stress that as far as
>>>>I'm concerned, if sanctioned by the Serbian population, the Chetniks can
>>>>do whatever they want inside the borders of Serbia. The only thing that
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
>>> ?????
>>>>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia.
>>
>>>And Chetniks are doing whatever they doing inside the borders of Serbia
>>
>>Do you consider Slavonia, Plitvice and and the area around Knin part of
>>Serbia?
>
>We'll see after the negotiations ...
Is negotiations a Chetnik word for Granade Launchers?
>
>> You just gave yourself away for what and who you really are.
>
>I was never hiding. I am a Serb, and that is not a mistery.
We have always known that you are a Serb; however, now we know
your source of funding!
>
>>I wonder how you would like if Croatia went 400km into Serbia and did
>>the same thing what the Hitlerian Chetniks are doing in Croatia.
>
>_IF_ Chetniks were 'Hitlerian', can you answer following questions:
>
> 1. Why German forces organized more than 10 offensives against Chetniks
> during the WWII ?
It is true that in 1941 the Chetniks in Serbia in collaboration
with Tito attempted a rebellion against the German occupation army.
But when the Germans thwarted this attempt, the Chetniks first sincerely
then openly collaborated with the German Nazis and also the Italian
occupation forces in Dalmatia to terrorize the Croatian populations there.
>
> 2. Why Hitler set the very same price on heads of both Mr. Draza
> Mihajlovic (Chetnik's leader) and Tito (communist leader) during the
> WWII ?
>
> 3. Why the Chetnik's movement was considered as the first resistance
> movement in the Europe of WWII ?
I don't daubt these satements at all. However, Draza Mihajlovic made a
Balkanic switch in policy when he figured out he could fullfil his goals
more efficiently while collaborating with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
In a written document issued by D.M. to his commanders he defined the
real aims of the Chetniks.
"the Aims of are units are"
1 - Struggle for freedom of our entire people under the sceptre of H. M.
King Peter IInd.
2 - Creation of a Great Yugoslavia including a Great Serbia, which will be
ethnically clear, with Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sriem, Banat and Backa.
3 - Struggle for the incorporation into our national territory of yet
unliberated territories (Trieste, Goriza, Istria, Korinthia, Bulgaria,
North Albania with Skadar)
4 - Clearing of the said territory of all national minorities and
anti-national elements.
5 - Creation of direct command boundaries between Serbia and Slovenia by
means of clearing Sandjak from the Moslem population, and Bosnia
and Herzegovina from Moslem and Croatian population.
Regards, Mile
Jack Z. Lupic - VE3FAE
> In article <66...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> zel...@pauling.iaims.bcm.tmc.edu (Zeljk
> >Let me bring my point again. The rehabilitation of Chetniks is official.
> >They are part of political life in Serbia. You can not say that for Ustashe
> >in Croatia. That is very important difference. Think about it.
>
> I agree. Chetniks NEVER commited GENOCIDE, but Ustashe DID. Thus there is no
> ways for Ustashe rehabilitation except in some NEW nazistic state !
>
> Think about it.
>
> Best Regards,
> Bogdan
Don't let this B.S. propaganda sway your judgement. Chetniks are RIGHT NOW
Bogdan R Kosanovic
(Mile Erlic) writes:
> We have always known that you are a Serb; however, now we know
>your source of funding!
Who are _we_ ? Are you making lists of Serbs (Jews, and 'others')
posting to this group like some other Croats at different time were doing in
Pavelic's Croatia ? ;-(
However, I do not want to be personal as you were.
I think it is not YOUR business WHAT are sources of my funding. I really
even do not know you, neither I am interested to get knowing you better.
But if you are that curious, note that Serbs are not getting 'gifts'
from Ortodox Church like some 'others' from 'their' Churches (?). Among
Serbs such things are considered humiliation.
Sorry, but you really do not know ANYTHING about Serbs.
Bogdan
Dusan Iricanin
>
> It is true that in 1941 the Chetniks in Serbia in collaboration
>with Tito attempted a rebellion against the German occupation army.
>But when the Germans thwarted this attempt, the Chetniks first sincerely
>then openly collaborated with the German Nazis and also the Italian
>occupation forces in Dalmatia to terrorize the Croatian populations there.
>
-Mr.Erlic, would You mind telling me where and when did You learn
that version of history? In kindergarden, perhaps?
>
> I don't daubt these satements at all. However, Draza Mihajlovic made a
>Balkanic switch in policy when he figured out he could fullfil his goals
>more efficiently while collaborating with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.
> In a written document issued by D.M. to his commanders he defined the
>real aims of the Chetniks.
>
>"the Aims of are units are"
[stuff deleted]
-would You post where did You quote this document from? Words like
"ethnically clean" where not used in those times.
Jack Z. Lupic - VE3FAE
> >>>bothers me is that the Chetniks are "defending" Serbia 400km west of
> >> ?????
> >>>Belgrade in the heart of Croatia.
> >
> >>And Chetniks are doing whatever they doing inside the borders of Serbia
> >
> >Do you consider Slavonia, Plitvice and and the area around Knin part of
> >Serbia?
>
> We'll see after the negotiations ...
Sure, the present Chetnik "gun" diplomacy is terrific negotiation.
> I was never hiding. I am a Serb, and that is not a mistery.
Glad to hear it Bogdan, I am a Croat. But did you not, if my memory
serves me right, until a short time ago, claim that you were Yugoslavian :-)
> >I wonder how you would like if Croatia went 400km into Serbia and did
> >the same thing what the Hitlerian Chetniks are doing in Croatia.
>
> _IF_ Chetniks were 'Hitlerian', can you answer following questions:
>
> 1. Why German forces organized more than 10 offensives against Chetniks
> during the WWII ?
>
> 2. Why Hitler set the very same price on heads of both Mr. Draza
> Mihajlovic (Chetnik's leader) and Tito (communist leader) during the
> WWII ?
>
> 3. Why the Chetnik's movement was considered as the first resistance
> movement in the Europe of WWII ?
>
> Next time try a little bit harder. Otherwise, people will laugh at you.
You still did not answer my question. Your argument might be valid in 1.
and 2. but what is so evangelical about 3.
> I think that you made a mistake. I was always claiming there is lot of
> Croats in Serbia, but some other (Croats on this net) were claiming Serbs
> 'purged' all of them out of Serbia. (What a stupidity).
Nice manipulation Bogdan but it doesen't fly. Oh, so there isn't a single
Croat in Serbia. It goes to show what any minority is to expect in Sebia-
non - existence.
> > Wait until they start claiming areas in Serbia
> >which are rightfully theirs.
>
> According to WHAT international treaty ? (Maybe London treaty, 1915 ;-)
> (Maybe Hitler promissed something to puppet Croatia, but I'm not sure
> such a thing will be supported widely).
Are you and Hitler related? I will follow your thinking: Maybe Hitler
promised a good part of Croatia to the Chetniks.
> Why do you ask ? Are you afraid of person having beards ?
Naw, some of my best friends have beards :-))
-Jack-
Zeljko Jericevic
In article 1991Jul20.0...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>
Date: 20 Jul 1991 08:06:21 GMT Dusan Iricanin writes:
>-I would call lack of sensitivity when Croatian government institutialize
> same state symbols as during Croatian nazi pupet state when genocide
> was done.
If you mean the chessboard, that is the Croatian symbol stretching back
for centuries, and it was even in emblem of Socialist Republic of Croatia.
How that it was not upsetting for Serbs then?
Please elaborate.
>-that is not true. Mr.Seselj have tried to organize Chetniks Party, but
> he was stoped by the law. In fact, he spend some time in jail after that.
Well, I have seen him on American TV recently, where he claimed that he has
thousands of people under the arms and ready to defend Serbs. When asked by
American reporter where he is going to defend the Serbs, maybe in Croatia,
Mr. Seselj answered that there is no Croatia.
It looks like to me that if Mr. Seselj is threat for the current government
in Serbia, they will jail him. But if he just wants to go at Croatia, that's
fine, he will probably got the arms too.
In article <1991Jul20.2...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>
Date: 20 Jul 1991 22:13:12 GMT Dusan Iricanin writes:
>-I would like to point out two things:
> a) the rehabilitation of Chetniks has never being done, and they are *not*
> part of political life in Serbia.
If the Chetniks movement is not a part of political life in Serbia, how it
can organize and arm thousands of people? See Mr. Seselj quote above.
> 1) how can You discriminate "Chetnik" from Serb living in that area
> who is fighting for his right to live?
You do not have to fight for your right to live in democratic society. You
simply have to earn your living by work. The Serbs in Croatia have the same
citizenship rights as Croats, or anybody else living there. So far as I know,
the vice president position in Croatian government was offered to Serbian
representative and he declined. I must conclude that such an attitude shows
disinterest and contempt for institutions of civilized society, and probably
the inclination to use other means in achieving the political objectives.
To conclude on this point, I think that calling use of force and terror
over the civilian population in democratic society "fighting for Serbian right
to live" is stretching it to far.
In article <1991Jul21....@bernina.ethz.ch>
Date: 21 Jul 1991 19:02:59 GMT (Srdjan Mitrovic) writes:
>a) the director has been removed before the armed confrontation started and
>before Krajina seceeded.
>b) the earliest mentioning of Cetniks in Croatia has been several months later.
>c) he has been forced by protest of local inhabitants who did not feel that
>they represented them adequately (I think he was not only the director ??)
In a nutshell: The enterprise lead by Serbian director was very successful.
I also have to say that he had a broad vision. For example, he financed the
ecological and chemical studies of Plitvice lakes, done by Institute "Rudjer
Boskovic" in Zagreb. I am from that Institute myself, and that is how I know
the story. He also supported the new Croatian government. Taking all this
together, here was a prominent member of Serbian community in Croatia, leading
the successful enterprise with strong positive economic impact at neighboring
villages. The problem was, he did not fit at all into stories about terrible
things the Serbs are suffering in Croatia. He was threatened by armed Serbs,
but not the local ones, and if you do not want to call them Chetniks, that's
fine. The rest of the story involves the shooting at Italian tourists and
Croatian police, but my point was that the Chetniks will not leave the Serbs
in peace either.
Zeljko Jericevic
Dusan Iricanin
>Date: 20 Jul 1991 08:06:21 GMT Dusan Iricanin writes:
>
>>-that is not true. Mr.Seselj have tried to organize Chetniks Party, but
>> he was stoped by the law. In fact, he spend some time in jail after that.
>Well, I have seen him on American TV recently, where he claimed that he has
>thousands of people under the arms and ready to defend Serbs. When asked by
>American reporter where he is going to defend the Serbs, maybe in Croatia,
>Mr. Seselj answered that there is no Croatia.
>It looks like to me that if Mr. Seselj is threat for the current government
>in Serbia, they will jail him. But if he just wants to go at Croatia, that's
>fine, he will probably got the arms too.
named SNO or something like that. After a while he had joined Mr.Draskovic,
and they have made combined party. After a while they argued and Mr.Seselj
made a new party: Chetniks movement. That party was (as far as I know) never
registred.
When Mr.Mesic came into the federal Presidency, Mr.Seselj organized
demonstrations in front of the federal parlament. He invited all the
Chetniks to come. There were less than 2000 of them. How many of them would
be if he called them to fight in Croatia? Far less, I think.
A few months ago, MrSeselj claimed that he organized Chetniks marine and
Chetniks aviation. He said that Chetniks marine has several submarines which
were in the river Sava, so they can send torpedo to Zagreb.
Soon after those statements, Mr.Seselj abandoned Chetniks party and
organized Serbian Radical Party. (That is his 3. if I am correct).
As you see Mr.Seselj talks a lot. I cannot claim he is serious or not,
but have You seen some torpedos near Zagreb lately?
>
>In article <1991Jul20.2...@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>
>Date: 20 Jul 1991 22:13:12 GMT Dusan Iricanin writes:
>>-I would like to point out two things:
>> a) the rehabilitation of Chetniks has never being done, and they are *not*
>> part of political life in Serbia.
>If the Chetniks movement is not a part of political life in Serbia, how it
>can organize and arm thousands of people? See Mr. Seselj quote above.
-see answer above.
>
>> 1) how can You discriminate "Chetnik" from Serb living in that area
>> who is fighting for his right to live?
>You do not have to fight for your right to live in democratic society. You
>simply have to earn your living by work. The Serbs in Croatia have the same
>citizenship rights as Croats, or anybody else living there. So far as I know,
>the vice president position in Croatian government was offered to Serbian
>representative and he declined. I must conclude that such an attitude shows
>disinterest and contempt for institutions of civilized society, and probably
>the inclination to use other means in achieving the political objectives.
>To conclude on this point, I think that calling use of force and terror
>over the civilian population in democratic society "fighting for Serbian right
>to live" is stretching it to far.
-all of Your's conclusions are based on the premise that there is democratic
society in Croatia. I don't think that is true. There were reports that
HDZ members (HDZ is a political party) have documents which give them right
to arrest amd interrogate. Latest reports say that the federal minister
for agriculture was taken out of car and beaten by the members of Croat
National Guard. I do not believe that is democracy.
regards
Zeljko Jericevic
In article <1991Jul23....@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu>
Date: 23 Jul 1991 19:09:18 GMT (Dusan Iricanin) writes:
> As you see Mr.Seselj talks a lot. I cannot claim he is serious or not,
>but have You seen some torpedos near Zagreb lately?
Do you want to say that all those dead people in Croatia perished because
someone was just talking a lot?
I have never seen the torpedos near Zagreb, but check the article #1598
from the Washington Post 07/22/91, looks like "invisible" Chetniks are
quite visible to the American reporters. And that is near Zagreb, too.
Please note who is leading these people (foreign mercenary of Serbian origin),
who is providing them with the uniforms and arms (Federal Army (YPA)), and who
is giving them support (Serbian government). Also note what they are doing,
shelling the civilians and engaging in confrontation with the legal Croatian
government. Now, how that fits into stories of Serbs living there and defending
their right to live? Not very well, I am afraid.
>-all of Your's conclusions are based on the premise that there is democratic
> society in Croatia. I don't think that is true. There were reports that
> HDZ members (HDZ is a political party) have documents which give them right
> to arrest amd interrogate. Latest reports say that the federal minister
> for agriculture was taken out of car and beaten by the members of Croat
> National Guard. I do not believe that is democracy.
I would know it is not, if your statements were true. You may believe whatever
you want, but I want to know. Please provide the references for your statements.
If you claim that Croatia is not a democratic state, please prove it first, and
second say what in your opinion has to be done to make it one? Please give us
some idea what you will consider the democracy (in Croatia) if free elections
and political dialogue is not good enough for you.
So let me try again. The government in Croatia was democratically
elected. They changed the flag, and that was excuse for Serbian nationalist
to start shooting, road and railway blocks, bomb settings, etc. Although
I do not agree with everything the Croatian government is doing, I do not
plan to start the bloodshed to make my point. There are mechanisms in place,
(democratic ones) for working out the problems. As I already said, the
Croatian government made a goodwill attempt to engage Serbian representatives
in political process at the highest level. To quote from my previous article:
>The Serbs in Croatia have the same
>citizenship rights as Croats, or anybody else living there. So far as I know,
>the vice president position in Croatian government was offered to Serbian
>representative and he declined. I must conclude that such an attitude shows
>disinterest and contempt for institutions of civilized society, and probably
>the inclination to use other means in achieving the political objectives.
From the things going on now in Croatia, it is plainly clear what those
other means are, they can be summed up by one word: violence. That is stupid
and dangerous, the general economic situation in the country is bad enough
even without that.
Now, let me ask you something. If you unleash the terrorist attacks on
Croatian people and legal government, do you think that it leads toward (more)
democratic society? Please check in the history books how the countries with
strong civil liberties like US treated their own citizens of Italian,
Japanese and German origin during the war. Could you imagine the Balkan
version of it? You claim that Croatia is not a democratic state.
Don't you think that the question is not could Croats and Serbs hurt each
other, we already know that we can hurt each other badly, but could we
live together? It is not a question of dying together but a living together.
The Croats and Serbs are entangled by mixed communities, marriages, you name it.
As for the separation, I do not believe that Chetnik's dagger is an instrument
delicate enough for the task.
Zeljko Jericevic
Srdjan Mitrovic
Jericevic) writes:
>If you claim that Croatia is not a democratic state, please prove it first,
and
>second say what in your opinion has to be done to make it one? Please give us
>some idea what you will consider the democracy (in Croatia) if free elections
>and political dialogue is not good enough for you.
Free election is not enough (remember Hitler). What is being after is
more important. What we need is: free press, free TV, no loyalty oaths,
no political name-changing (Dalmatia vs. South Croatia), minority rights,
political dialogue. Or just check any recent 'Danas' for things that are still
missing.
>So let me try again. The government in Croatia was democratically
>elected. They changed the flag, and that was excuse for Serbian nationalist
>to start shooting, road and railway blocks, bomb settings, etc. Although
>I do not agree with everything the Croatian government is doing, I do not
>plan to start the bloodshed to make my point. There are mechanisms in place,
>(democratic ones) for working out the problems...
..And sending national guard, police forces or army in regions which are
not willing to agree is definetly not a democratic mechanism!
>
>Zeljko Jericevic
>
Srdjan
Jure Marn
were US citizens *had to* sign loyalty oath. So what?
If Croatian citizens have to sign loyalty oath this isn't any
worse than US citizens, is it?
--
Jure Marn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ma...@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ...
Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled
Dragana Pavlovic
The standard document that *everybody, regardless of citizenship* has
to sign when he/she goes to work for a technical company is called
"Proprietery Information And Conflict Of Interest Agreement". In it,
you basically promise:
a) not to give away any trade secrets of the company
b) if you invent something during the employment with the company
which is relevant to the business of the company, you will turn over
all title, rights, and profits of the invention to the company
Is this the pledge you are talking about? Is that the same pledge
that Croatian residents have to sign?
Dragana
Jure Marn
(Dragana Pavlovic) describes standard propriatory form and than asks:
>
>Is this the pledge you are talking about?
No. The pledge I saw stated something along: I pledge my
loyalty to U.S. and its elected representatives etc. and something
about upholding U.S. constitution.
Srdjan Mitrovic
>were US citizens *had to* sign loyalty oath. So what?
>If Croatian citizens have to sign loyalty oath this isn't any
>worse than US citizens, is it?
While we were talking about loyalties oath for Kosovo-Albanians it was
a bad thing. When it has been told that Serbs in Croatia have to do it
(not Croats) it has been metro-like argumented. Now as it is pretty
certain that all Serbs in HDZ-state have to sign it you find it O.K.
I promised I flame anybody who support loyalty oaths.
Flame on you: whoooooooshh!!
How about fetching the contents of both loyalty oaths and comparing
them.
>--
> Jure Marn
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Really disappointed
Srdjan
Jure Marn
>
>While we were talking about loyalties oath for Kosovo-Albanians it was
>a bad thing.
I did not (and still not) condone any loyalty oaths. They are degrading
as they reduced the will of individual to a written statement. But
I wanted to point out an inconsistency: signing the loyalty oath
is not a sign of "non-democratic" system (if one accepts U.S. as
a democracy).
I hope my post was not understood as a support for these statements.
>
>I promised I flame anybody who support loyalty oaths.
>Flame on you: whoooooooshh!!
>
Got my asbestos suit with a matching tie on!
Dragana Pavlovic
such a statement. I wonder if that's legal in this country?
Was it a government company? If they did secret government work, I could
see the reason behind the pledge.
Please, let's have all the circumstances -- I'm really interested!
Thanks,
Dragana
Dragan Curcija
>(Dragana Pavlovic) describes standard propriatory form and than asks:
>>
>>Is this the pledge you are talking about?
>
>No. The pledge I saw stated something along: I pledge my
>loyalty to U.S. and its elected representatives etc. and something
>about upholding U.S. constitution.
Live to learn. Nobody I asked ever heard for something like
that. There was debate about the 'pledge of allegiance' for school
kids, but that was voted down. If that happened indeed, in the form
described above, it probably reflects 'broad views' of g. Marn's
employer, who has the right to ask for such things. The real issue,
though, is whether that is required by federal or state laws, and
whether the employe has the right to refuse signing of such things,
and that is preaty unquestionable in US, I would say.
Aside, may I interpret posting of g. Marn as an agreement to
the practice of requesting the written loyalty to Croatian gov?
>
>--
> Jure Marn
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ma...@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ...
> Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled
Gee,
Dragan
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historia Magistra Vitae Est
___________________________________________________________________________
Jure Marn
>I find it hard to believe that a private company made people sign
>such a statement. I wonder if that's legal in this country?
>
I don't know about the legality. But doesn't one sign the loyality
oath when one accepts US citizenship?
>Was it a government company?
No. It was not-for-profit company (it still is although
they earn lotsa money).
Jure Marn
> Aside, may I interpret posting of g. Marn as an agreement to
>the practice of requesting the written loyalty to Croatian gov?
No, that is incorrect interpretation. I find all "pledges" and stuff
outright attack on my personal freedom of choice. Including the
one I had to sign in Yugoslav Army.
Dragana Pavlovic
>I don't know about the legality. But doesn't one sign the loyality
>oath when one accepts US citizenship?
>
Yes, you have to promise loyalty to the country if you were not born
in it. Therefore, I think that's a bad comparison because the Serbs
in Croatia have been born there, and are consequently automatically
Croatian residents and Yugoslav citizens.
Also, it is possible to live in this country without actually
becoming a citizen (green card option). In which case you can't
vote or be called for jury duty, but you can still work normally,
and have to pay the taxes.
So, even if Croatia was independnt today, or became so tomorrow,
I still don't think they should force pledges. But I guess
everybody who has posted anything about these pledges has said that
they're bad in principle.
It's great to see us all in agreement, we should do it more often!
:-)
Dragana
Dragana Pavlovic
issue here (whether it should be mandatory to take a drug test
before you can work somewhere).
Which makes me wonder -- does anybody know whether drugs are a problem
in Yugoslavia? Considering how easy, not to mention cheap, it is
to get medicine in YU, one would think that there must be some
abuse of that. But how big are "hard" drugs in various cities?
Since we're experiencing our own glasnost, it seems that problems
like drug abuse will finally become public knowledge. But will we
be prepared to deal with them?
Dragana
Zeljko Jericevic
In article <1991Jul25.0...@bernina.ethz.ch>
Date: 25 Jul 1991 09:45:59 GMT (Srdjan Mitrovic) writes:
>>If you claim that Croatia is not a democratic state, please prove it first,
and
>>second say what in your opinion has to be done to make it one? Please give us
>>some idea what you will consider the democracy (in Croatia) if free elections
>>and political dialogue is not good enough for you.
>Free election is not enough (remember Hitler). What is being after is
>more important. What we need is: free press, free TV, no loyalty oaths,
>no political name-changing (Dalmatia vs. South Croatia), minority rights,
>political dialogue. Or just check any recent 'Danas' for things that are still
>missing.
We already heard couple of times on this net that Hitler is mentioned to easily.
But I agree with you that what is after the election is important. Let us go,
item by item.
Free press:
Please look at your own quote above. If Danas, which is the journal published in
Croatia can point out "for things that are still missing", and essentially
criticize the government, isn't that a free press???
And you can buy the newspapers from all around the world, too.
Free TV:
We just established on the basis of your quote that there is a free press, so
what would be a point of censoring just TV?
From some other postings on the net, we learned that YUTEL is available. I think
you can also watch CNN, Italian and Austrian TV.
In the staff of Croatian press and TV all Yugoslav nationalities are
represented. Just look into any issue of Danas and see the author names.
How that diversity of opinions compare to what is in Serbia?
Loyalty oaths:
I remember giving four of them. One in Army, and three at the receiving my high
degrees. It looks like a common practice, isn't it?
But let me make it clear. I think that asking every citizen to give loyalty
oath is monstrous, but for the public officials, that is not a bad idea. In US
every policeman is asked to do it, not to mention other public servants,
up to the President of US.
To sum up on this one, I would like to see the text of that loyalty oath,
and maybe compare it with the one the Albanians in Kosovo have to sign.
No political name-changing:
Sorry, that is up to the will of people. But I do think that there are more
urgent things to do, like save lives, for example.
Minority rights:
Citizen rights are guaranteed to everyone living in Croatia. Minorities are
recognized. What are you talking about?
Political dialogue:
For dialogue, more then one side must be willing to talk. I already gave you
the example on the highest level in Croatian government, and the Serbian
representative didn't wanted it. Looks like to me they are more fond of
shooting.
But I am talking about Croatia a lot. How about you telling me all this
things for Serbia, so that people at the net may compare?
Zeljko Jericevic
Andrej Brodnik (Andy)
>Flame on you: whoooooooshh!!
Whooooooooooosh!!
Andrej
PS: But not for one as mentioned by Dragana!
Dragan Curcija
>I don't know about the legality. But doesn't one sign the loyality
>oath when one accepts US citizenship?
Does one sign such loyalty all over again when the new party
comes to power? I guess, nobody was talking about non-citizens, but
the people living there and having citizenship already.
>--
> Jure Marn
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ma...@wright.seas.ucla.edu ! kdor visoko leta ...
> Thank you for flowers, flames and fun ! ... ima dober razgled
Nelojalan Pozdrav,
Kuck And Associates
#Return-Path: <kai>
#Received: by sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu.csrd.uiuc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1)
# id AA14570; Fri, 26 Jul 91 19:02:48 CDT
#Date: Fri, 26 Jul 91 19:02:48 CDT
#From: kai (Kuck And Associates)
#Message-Id: <910727000...@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu.csrd.uiuc.edu>
#To: kai
#Subject: follow failed
#Status: R
#
#Remote error: 441 s4.csrd.uiuc.edu NNTP server out of space. Try later.
****** (pitam se, pitam se, tko ga je napunio?) *******
#/usr/local/lib/inews failed
#
#Your response has been saved in ~/dead.letter
----------------------- the reply --------------------------
In article <1991Jul26.1...@neon.Stanford.EDU>
dra...@neon.Stanford.EDU (Dragana Pavlovic) writes:
Well, both of you (Jure and Dragana) are right.
The loyalty oath was required in the past ( the person who signed one was
employed by a university 14 years ago! ) by some companies.
He said that the loyalty oaths might be illegal in the States these days.
He said that those days were days of the Cold War and that the employers
(Uncle Sam ?) were concerned with the bad influence of the communists ideas or
some sort of similar stuff. It started in fifties.
>Thanks,
>Dragana
Regards,
Hrabri
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katz' Law:
Man and nations will act rationally when all other possibilities
have been exausted.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------