Beaumaris
DKJ200
What is the correct pronunciation of Beaumaris? Is it Beau as in Beau Geste, or
Beau as in beautiful?
David Jamieson
Lizrm233
In article <19970929181...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, dkj...@aol.com
(DKJ200) writes:
>What is the correct pronunciation of Beaumaris? Is it Beau as in Beau Geste,
>or
>Beau as in beautiful?
>
>
Beaumaris means " beautiful marsh" from the French, but just why a town in
Anglesey has a French name is difficult to know? There has been a move to
'Welsh-ise' the name to " Biwmares" which means nothing at all as far as I
can gather in any language! Can the great linguists in this group perhaps
come up with a more acceptable name!
RJones6901
Sgwenodd lizr...@aol.com (Lizrm233):
>Beaumaris means " beautiful marsh" from the French, but just why a town in
>Anglesey has a French name is difficult to know? There has been a move to
>'Welsh-ise' the name to " Biwmares" which means nothing at all as far as I
>can gather in any language! Can the great linguists in this group perhaps
>come up with a more acceptable name!
>
Yepper doodles, Beaumaris certainly does mean beautiful marsh (beau +
marais), and Beaumaris castle is on a very beautiful one at that.
The reason a Welsh castle has a French name is it isn't a Welsh castle at
all, but one built by English lords whose langue a cour was French. The
Welsh Biwmaris is just the Welsh trying to say beau marais, and no, it
doesn't mean anything in Welsh as far as I know.
Hwyl,
Robert
Neil Shadrach
Geraint Jones wrote:
>
> dkj...@aol.com (DKJ200) wrote:
> ( What is the correct pronunciation of Beaumaris?
> ) Is it Beau as in Beau Geste, or
> ( Beau as in beautiful?
>
> Those Welsh-speaking people who spell it Biwmaris pronounce it
> with a "beautiful" syllable, and rhyme it with the potatoes.
>
> Died in the wool posh English-speaking English people, the sort
> of people who pronounce Shrewsbury as if it were still Shrowsbury,
> pronounce it with what you describe as a "Beau Geste" syllable,
> and rhyme it, pretty much, with a part of the human anatomy.
Somewhere on the English south coast, possibly in Hampshire, is a
place called Beaulieu which despite universal bilingual ( French/English
)
education is pronounced Biwly by the locals. They don't seem to have a
problem
with keeping the traditional spelling, so obviously French, and
pronouncing
it as they want to.
Just out of curiosity does anyone know how the Normans pronounced Beau?
Norman French was presumably quite different to modern French.
Assuming the same pronunciation may well not be justified.
What if they actually said Biw? A Grammar school pedant's nightmare
Neil Shadrach
Dave Thomas
>Sgwenodd lizr...@aol.com (Lizrm233):
>
>>Beaumaris means " beautiful marsh" from the French, but just why a town in
>>Anglesey has a French name is difficult to know? There has been a move to
>>'Welsh-ise' the name to " Biwmares" which means nothing at all as far as I
>>can gather in any language! Can the great linguists in this group perhaps
>>come up with a more acceptable name!
How about Bwamorfa (Bow Marsh) or Morfanneg (UNfair marsh)!! Failing
that why not simply call it Castell Llanfaes.
As to why it was given it's Norman name instead of merely anglicising
the Welsh one - probably because Edward wanted to wipe out Llanfaes
after his favourite Roger de Pulesdon, sheriff of Anglesey was hung in
1294. As part of their punishment the whole population of Llanfaes was
evicted to the settlement of Newborough. As Llanfaes was the location
of the monastry founded by Llewelyn Fawr and the burial location of his
wife Joan it would be a fitting Welsh name.
Hawddamor
dave
--
Dave Thomas
John Kelly
Rob Stradling wrote:
>
> Neil Shadrach wrote:
>
> > Somewhere on the English south coast, possibly in Hampshire, is a
> > place called Beaulieu which despite universal bilingual ( French/English
> > )
> > education is pronounced Biwly by the locals. They don't seem to have a
> > problem with keeping the traditional spelling, so obviously French, and
> > pronouncing it as they want to.
>
>
> > Just out of curiosity does anyone know how the Normans pronounced Beau?
> > Norman French was presumably quite different to modern French.
> > Assuming the same pronunciation may well not be justified.
> > What if they actually said Biw? A Grammar school pedant's nightmare
>
> "Pen-MINE" (textbook Welsh) and the locals will correct you - it's
> "Pen-MANE", don't you know?
We have the same problem where I live in Groes-Faen. Leaving aside the
incorrect mutation which is another annoyance it's known as Gross-Vane
by the majority of people who live around the area.
--
John Kelly
Dave Thomas
In article <3430DF...@who.net>, Rob Stradling <p...@who.net> writes
>Neil Shadrach wrote:
>
>> Somewhere on the English south coast, possibly in Hampshire, is a
>> place called Beaulieu which despite universal bilingual ( French/English
>> )
>> education is pronounced Biwly by the locals. They don't seem to have a
>> problem with keeping the traditional spelling, so obviously French, and
>> pronouncing it as they want to.
The confusion probably arose because of the similarity of the word to
beau(ty) which derives from old French *biaute* but in ME was *beaute*
and pronounced as byewtee.
>
>Yes, it's in Hampshire, and it's pronounced "BYEW-lee".
>
>...but a common one. How about Penmaen, on Gower? Pronounce it
>"Pen-MINE" (textbook Welsh) and the locals will correct you - it's
>"Pen-MANE", don't you know?
That is understandable as South Gower was part of the *Englishrie* the
Walsherie was to the north. From the 13C the area was settled by Normans
and Flemings and the Welsh were excluded.
Unknown
Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes: > In article <3430DF...@who.net>, Rob Stradling <p...@who.net> writes
because of snobbery and housing costs. I knew a chap from Mumbles who
had never known a Welsh speaker before. That is very worrying.
Don't forget that the locals refer to it as "Gaaaar" and not the oh so
common "Gow-wuh" that my sort uses.
Gwyd.
Unknown
wham...@jesus.ox.ac.uk (William HamBevan) writes: > : The Welsh are still excluded from most of Gower and Mumbles, mostly
> : because of snobbery and housing costs. I knew a chap from Mumbles who
> : had never known a Welsh speaker before. That is very worrying.
>
> to stand up in the middle of the White Rose and repeat this rubbish!
>
=====
snip
I don't think they'd let me I'm not a student or habitual drug user
(I don't on a Sunday being chap-pal).
I'll take up your bet, but only if I can shout "my rubbish" in Welsh.
They'll probably think I'm speaking in tongues.
Gwyd.
Rubbish is my speciality, I've got a degree to prove it.
William HamBevan
: The Welsh are still excluded from most of Gower and Mumbles, mostly
: because of snobbery and housing costs. I knew a chap from Mumbles who
: had never known a Welsh speaker before. That is very worrying.
Mixing up 'Welsh' and 'Welsh-speaker' again, are we? Duw, Duw. I dare you
to stand up in the middle of the White Rose and repeat this rubbish!
: Don't forget that the locals refer to it as "Gaaaar" and not the oh so
: common "Gow-wuh" that my sort uses.
No, I think you'll find that we pronounce it perfectly well, thankyou.
Those who pronounce it 'Gaaaar' are mostly from Bishopston or Derwen Faaaar.
---
And we're not saying that it will -==- William Ham Bevan
And we're not saying that it won't -==- Linguistics & Philology
Only that it might -==- University of Oxford
Gerald Copp
John Kelly wrote:
>We have the same problem where I live in Groes-Faen. Leaving aside the
>incorrect mutation which is another annoyance it's known as Gross-Vane
>by the majority of people who live around the area.
>
'Barking' Papa Parry lives in Groes-Faen and he pronounces it
'Groes-Faen'. When he lived in Llantwit Fadre he pronounced it 'Llantwit
Fadre'. He used to live in Dinas Powis, which is where he started
barking - in the Crystal Lounge of the Star - and was originally from
Barry, but he always pronounced that 'Barri'.
Was Lisvane, once upon a time, Llysfaen?
I was born in 'Caddickst'n'.
William HamBevan
: I don't think they'd let me I'm not a student or habitual drug user
Neither (to the best of my knowledge) is my old man, who is a most
regular of regulars - along with most of the Swansea West Drug Squad.
: I'll take up your bet, but only if I can shout "my rubbish" in Welsh.
: They'll probably think I'm speaking in tongues.
I can see it now:
'Clayton - chuck this bugger out, e's ad too much Bass... talking
bollocks, he is...'
Incidentally, are Garry Owen and Gilbert John still at Alexandra
Road? I shadowed them as part of my work experience programme at Bishop
Gore, many years ago.
Rob Stradling
Neil Shadrach wrote:
> Somewhere on the English south coast, possibly in Hampshire, is a
> place called Beaulieu which despite universal bilingual ( French/English
> )
> education is pronounced Biwly by the locals. They don't seem to have a
> problem with keeping the traditional spelling, so obviously French, and
> pronouncing it as they want to.
Yes, it's in Hampshire, and it's pronounced "BYEW-lee".
> Just out of curiosity does anyone know how the Normans pronounced Beau?
> Norman French was presumably quite different to modern French.
> Assuming the same pronunciation may well not be justified.
> What if they actually said Biw? A Grammar school pedant's nightmare
...but a common one. How about Penmaen, on Gower? Pronounce it
"Pen-MINE" (textbook Welsh) and the locals will correct you - it's
"Pen-MANE", don't you know?
Rob.
Lorraine
from Gerain...@wolfson.oxford.ac.uk (Geraint Jones) :
> Those Welsh-speaking people who spell it Biwmaris pronounce it
> with a "beautiful" syllable, and rhyme it with the potatoes.
> Died in the wool posh English-speaking English people, the sort
> of people who pronounce Shrewsbury as if it were still Shrowsbury,
> pronounce it with what you describe as a "Beau Geste" syllable,
So why is it that in the New Forest, it is the posh people who
pronounce 'Beaulieu' (truly the worst spelling of a placename in the UK)
as Byoo-lee and they look down on the 'common' people who pronounce
it as 'Bowe-lee'?
Guess it's just that pronounciation is truly a minefield.
Lorraine. Le-rain.
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <3430E1...@hotmail.com>, ysgrifenodd John Kelly
<jrk...@hotmail.com>:
>> ...but a common one. How about Penmaen, on Gower? Pronounce it
>> "Pen-MINE" (textbook Welsh) and the locals will correct you - it's
>> "Pen-MANE", don't you know?
>
>incorrect mutation which is another annoyance it's known as Gross-Vane
>by the majority of people who live around the area.
I can't comment on Groes-Faen, except to say that the initial mutation
is probably evidence of it being referred to in Welsh as _Y_ Groes Faen.
However, in my part of the world we have such names as Gelligaer
(pronounced locally as Gellige+r), Mynydd Maen (pronounced Mynydd Me+n)
Bargoed (pronounced Bargo+d), and Manmoel (pronounced Manmo+l). These
pronunciations are due to the way the diphthongs _ae_ and _oe_ are/were
pronounced in the local Welsh dialect (Gwenhwyseg).
The various spoken dialects of Welsh often differ markedly from
"standard" Welsh, in pronunciation as well as in other ways.
--
Barry Taylor
Visit me at http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/barry/
Phillip Lougher
In article <Scu2WYAT...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>,
I assume Gwenhwyseg is the dialect spoken in Gwent and Glamorgan... How
widely spoken is this dialect now? In the FAQ it's mentioned as being
'rarely appreciated', why is this?
I have worked through (off and on) some Welsh language courses, what
pronunciation is normally taught in them? I know that
the -au is pronounced as 'e' in the South West dialect (well I think I've
read somewhere that it is, I could be entirely wrong of course). Is
there a list of the differences in Gwenhwyseg anywhere?
Thanks for any info.
--
Phillip Lougher
differ
Powellaw
Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>How about Bwamorfa (Bow Marsh) or Morfanneg (UNfair marsh)!! Failing
>that why not simply call it Castell Llanfaes.
It's been some time since I lived there, but isn't Llanfaes actually _over the
hill and around the corner_ from Beaumaris?
But I agree with your reason for the Norman name. I also think that most of
the people living there would be very upset at the thought of changing the
name - the Cymraeg-cizing of it was bad enough!
Keith Powell
Email address: powe...@aol.com
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <EHDH9...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, ysgrifenodd Phillip Lougher
<phi...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>:
>I assume Gwenhwyseg is the dialect spoken in Gwent and Glamorgan... How
>widely spoken is this dialect now?
There are few speakers of this dialect under the age of 80, so it's not
that widely spoken any more, particularly in Gwent.
>In the FAQ it's mentioned as being
>'rarely appreciated', why is this?
Probably because it's almost extinct :o(
>I have worked through (off and on) some Welsh language courses, what
>pronunciation is normally taught in them?
A more or less standard pronunciation.
>I know that
>the -au is pronounced as 'e' in the South West dialect (well I think I've
>read somewhere that it is, I could be entirely wrong of course). Is
>there a list of the differences in Gwenhwyseg anywhere?
Your best bet would be a little book called "Blas ar iaith Blaenau'r
Cymoedd" - I can't remember the author, though. Does anyone else have
more info on this book?
Some of the main features are hardening of consonants, e.g. gwybod =>
gwpod;
-lydd/-ledd => ddyl/ddel, e.g. cywilydd =>cwiddyl, Brynhiledd =>
Bryniddel (Brynithel);
Pronunciation of "ae" and "a" as "e+": e.g. Cymraeg => Cwmre+g.
That'll do for now - I can't think of any more offhand.
Dave Thomas
In article <19971001144...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, Powellaw
<powe...@aol.com> writes
>
>
>It's been some time since I lived there, but isn't Llanfaes actually _over the
> hill and around the corner_ from Beaumaris?
>
Llewelyn dedicated a monastery to her memory at Llanfaes y Mon it is
probable that Llanfaes originally included the area to the shore. The
castle must have been built virtually on the site of Joan's grave I
suspect. The strong links of Llewelyn to the area would no doubt have
also been an influencing factor in the clearing of the local community.
It is interesting that Brut y Twysogion records the start of the castle
at Beaumaris in 1283 the same year as Aberconwy, Caernarvon and Harlech.
While the pipe rolls indicate that Beaumaris was begun in 1295. Probably
the first would have been a wooden structure.
As a final note David Powell in 1584 (The History of Wales) records the
name as BEWMORIS.
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <EHFBt...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, ysgrifenodd Phillip Lougher
<phi...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>:
>>>I know that
>>>the -au is pronounced as 'e' in the South West dialect (well I think I've
>>>read somewhere that it is, I could be entirely wrong of course). Is
>>>there a list of the differences in Gwenhwyseg anywhere?
>>
>>Your best bet would be a little book called "Blas ar iaith Blaenau'r
>>Cymoedd" - I can't remember the author, though. Does anyone else have
>>more info on this book?
>>
>
>information.
>
>William, Mary. Blas ar Iaith Blaenau'r Cymoedd. Llyfrau Llafar Gwlad 18.
> Gol. John Owen Hughes., Llanrwst: Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 1990.
That's the one. Worth a read if you're interested in Welsh dialects.
Phillip Lougher
In article <udsp2UAY...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>,
Barry Taylor <ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Yn erthygl <EHDH9...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, ysgrifenodd Phillip Lougher
><phi...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>:
>>I assume Gwenhwyseg is the dialect spoken in Gwent and Glamorgan... How
>>widely spoken is this dialect now?
>
>There are few speakers of this dialect under the age of 80, so it's not
>that widely spoken any more, particularly in Gwent.
>
>>In the FAQ it's mentioned as being
>>'rarely appreciated', why is this?
>
>Probably because it's almost extinct :o(
>
>>I have worked through (off and on) some Welsh language courses, what
>>pronunciation is normally taught in them?
>
>A more or less standard pronunciation.
>
>>the -au is pronounced as 'e' in the South West dialect (well I think I've
>>read somewhere that it is, I could be entirely wrong of course). Is
>>there a list of the differences in Gwenhwyseg anywhere?
>
>Your best bet would be a little book called "Blas ar iaith Blaenau'r
>Cymoedd" - I can't remember the author, though. Does anyone else have
>more info on this book?
>
A web search through Alta-Vista comes up with one hit, with the following
information.
William, Mary. Blas ar Iaith Blaenau'r Cymoedd. Llyfrau Llafar Gwlad 18.
Gol. John Owen Hughes., Llanrwst: Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 1990.
>Some of the main features are hardening of consonants, e.g. gwybod =>
>gwpod;
>-lydd/-ledd => ddyl/ddel, e.g. cywilydd =>cwiddyl, Brynhiledd =>
>Bryniddel (Brynithel);
>Pronunciation of "ae" and "a" as "e+": e.g. Cymraeg => Cwmre+g.
>
>That'll do for now - I can't think of any more offhand.
To an ignorant English only speaker, some of the differnces are more akin
to how I'd pronounce the words, if I didn't know better.
Thanks for the info.
--
Phillip Lougher
Phillip Lougher
In article <15XvPKA3...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>,
Barry Taylor <ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Yn erthygl <EHFBt...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>, ysgrifenodd Phillip Lougher
><phi...@comp.lancs.ac.uk>:
>>>>I know that
>>>>the -au is pronounced as 'e' in the South West dialect (well I think I've
>>>>read somewhere that it is, I could be entirely wrong of course). Is
>>>>there a list of the differences in Gwenhwyseg anywhere?
>>>
>>>Your best bet would be a little book called "Blas ar iaith Blaenau'r
>>>Cymoedd" - I can't remember the author, though. Does anyone else have
>>>more info on this book?
>>>
>>
>>A web search through Alta-Vista comes up with one hit, with the following
>>information.
>>
>>William, Mary. Blas ar Iaith Blaenau'r Cymoedd. Llyfrau Llafar Gwlad 18.
>> Gol. John Owen Hughes., Llanrwst: Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 1990.
>
>--
Yes, though it might have to wait until my ability in Welsh gets a lot
better :-)
Would anyone be good enough to translate the above into English please?
I cannnot reconcile the book subject (native dialects) with my 'understanding'
of what the title and book series means.
Thanks
--
Phillip Lougher
Dyfrig Thomas
On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:39:45 GMT, phi...@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Phillip
Lougher) wrote:
>>>William, Mary.
Mary William = author
> Blas ar Iaith Blaenau'r Cymoedd.
The Taste of the Language of the head of the valleys
> Llyfrau Llafar Gwlad 18.
the 18th in the Voice of the Country series
>>> Gol. John Owen Hughes., Llanrwst:
Editor (of series) John Owen Hughes, Llanrwst.
>Gwasg Carreg Gwalch, 1990.
the name of Publisher and date Gwasg = Press Carreg = stone but
uncertain of Gwalch I'm afraid.
Dyfrig
Dyfrig Thomas - Dyfg...@siopywerin.demon.co.uk
Safle'r siop:
Web Site http://www.preseli.com/siopywerin/
Nid yw gryf ond a ga+r gwan
Bob Bamford
<HTML>
Barry Taylor wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Yn erthygl <3430E1...@hotmail.com>, ysgrifenodd
John Kelly
<BR><jrk...@hotmail.com>:
<BR>>> ...but a common one. How about Penmaen, on Gower? Pronounce it
<BR>>> "Pen-MINE" (textbook Welsh) and the locals will correct you - it's
<BR>>> "Pen-MANE", don't you know?
<BR>>
<BR>>We have the same problem where I live in Groes-Faen. Leaving
aside the
<BR>>incorrect mutation which is another annoyance it's known as Gross-Vane
<BR>>by the majority of people who live around the area.
<P>I can't comment on Groes-Faen, except to say that the initial mutation
<BR>is probably evidence of it being referred to in Welsh as _Y_ Groes
Faen.
<P>However, in my part of the world we have such names as Gelligaer
<BR>(pronounced locally as Gellige+r), Mynydd Maen (pronounced Mynydd Me+n)
<BR>Bargoed (pronounced Bargo+d), and Manmoel (pronounced Manmo+l).
These
<BR>pronunciations are due to the way the diphthongs _ae_ and _oe_ are/were
<BR>pronounced in the local Welsh dialect (Gwenhwyseg).
<P>The various spoken dialects of Welsh often differ markedly from
<BR>"standard" Welsh, in pronunciation as well as in other ways.
<BR>--
<BR>Barry Taylor
<BR>Visit me at <A HREF="http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/barry/">http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/barry/</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I remember, most Welsh names meant something descriptive
of the location so the place was identifiable, like Cwmrhydycaerw which
to me is Valley of the ford of the deers (obviously when there were some
in existence to cross the ford).
<P>Bob B</HTML>
Neil Shadrach
Geraint Jones wrote:
>
> As it happens, the name of Cwm Rhyd y Ceirw is a corruption
> of something older; if you look at old enough sources you
> find Cwm Rhyd y Cwrw, so it's possibly the ford over which
> they carried the beer, or more likely the ford over the river
> that fed the brewhouse. I only know that because there is
> another example of that corruption in the (ahem) Coedpoeth
> area, where Ffynongroyw used once to be Ffynon y Cwrw. And
> a good thing too. Hic.
Welsh-speaking natives of Cwmrhydyceirw do still pronounce it
as cwrw, although when questioned will often say that it's a
mistake and give the 'official' translation. The two versions
are tied together in the name of the awful "Deer's Leap" public
house which sits, more or less, on the M4.
Neil
( Whose grandparents' house, along with Ynysforgan Sunday School,
is somewhere under junction 45 )
--
Neil Shadrach
sha...@boat.bt.com
cor...@cwmtawe.demon.co.uk
Gwydion ap Gurnad
thought to be improper to live in a place with the demon spirit in
it's name, they went for respectibility and changed it from cwrw to ceirw.
Good old Vitorian principles.
Gwyd.
Ex-Ynystawe Pat and more a Millers Arms man that a Deer's Leap boy.