meaning of Taliesin's Ogyrwen
David Dalton
used in the poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach), a 6th century
Welsh poet and mystic who I believe I am similar to.
In this post I refer to the book Taliesin: Shamanism and the Bardic
Mysteries in Britain and Ireland by John Matthews (with additional material
by Caitlin Matthews). The Aquarian Press/an imprint of Harper Collins, 1991
ISBN 1-85538-109-5.
In Taliesin's poems he talks about the inspirations of Ceridwen.
These I think are the waning crescent highs often following
5.5 lunar months (8 score days) after a waxing gibbous moon
trial period (the prison of Arianrhod).
But at one point Taliesin mentions that he is now "three score" years of
age, and then the "three times inspired by Ogyrwen" might be his initiation
in his late 20s (for me it was at 27.5, or 2.5 solar cycles) not long after
a solar cycle peak plus two later solar cycle peaks, while the inspirations
of Ceridwen are individual highs within each Ogyrwen period of years,
rather than Ceridwen and Ogyrwen meaning the same thing. Or the Ogyrwen
could be the first inspiration of Ceridwen of a solar sunspot cycle
(of 11 years or about seven score lunar months) after a long period of
no such highs (for me, over eight years since the last high now and
approaching seven years of low years, when I have been at times
delusional and even paranoid but am mostly fine now).
The seven score lunar months and eight score days are mentioned in
Taliesin's poem The Hostile Confederacy as seven score muses and
eight score in every score. The low years are mentioned in the
same poem as the great abyss of tranquility (depression) and
the great abyss of wrath (paranoia, conspiracy theories, etc.).
On p.97 of the book mentioned above, as part of the poem
The Hostile Confederacy, several lines read
"Seven score muses
There are in the inspiration of song;
Eight score in every score
In the great abyss of tranquility
In the great abyss of wrath..."
Again the seven score muses are seven score lunar months, or
about an 11 year solar sunspot cycle (there are 136 lunar
months in 11 years) between the first (Ogyrwen) inspiration of
Ceridwen of one solar cycle to the first (Ogyrwen)
inspiration of the next solar cycle. The eight score
in days is the 5.5 lunar month separation between the prison of
Arianrhod and the inspiration of Ceridwen. This separation
occurred three times for me in 1993--1994, and I am waiting
to see if the seven score lunar month separation occurs for
me, which would be more evidence that I am similar to Taliesin
(but my best work lies ahead of me). I am hoping for a
waning crescent high beginning as early as Oct. 29 and
beginning no later than late March.
Anyway I would like to know the translation of the word Ogyrwen.
For more detail on my cycles and why I think they are similar
to Taliesin's, see my Salmon on the Thorns web page at
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html
particularly the summary subpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/summary.html
and the celtic paganism subsubpage
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html
and the naked sundance/sun stare/thorn hill climb/blue rose vision page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sundance.html .
I would love to hear of any evidence that Taliesin had a blue rose vision.
David
Beirn
what do you think of the scholars and studies that seem to strongly
suggest that Taliesin was in fact a much later poet, from at the
earliest 11th century and most likely 14th (ie that the Book of Taliesin
which is known to be fourteenth century merely accredited its poetry to
an earlier age, to the sixth century)? and that he in fact can be fixed
as the poet of only one or two of the poems he is currently accredited
with?
I have read several views from both sides of the debate and have to say
the likelihood seems to me to be that he was in fact a later poet..but I
would be interested to hear to the contrary...any thoughts?
cheers, looking forward to hearing fomr those with much more knowledge
of welsh lit than I have:)
Beirn
--
family motto: we came, we saw, we laughed like drains!
"David Dalton" <dal...@nfld.com> wrote in message
news:aomm6q$u89$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
Amlyn
was praising the kings of Elfed/Rheged per battle.
This lend itself to the idea that he was of that time (6thC), otherwise
there would be some songs that encompassed many victories, or covering whole
lineages.
Or so i've read...
Certic
Amlyn <am...@defynnog.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aomsh1$8sj$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> When some of his songs are looked at chronolaogically, you can see that he
> was praising the kings of Elfed/Rheged per battle.
Elfed?
--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
"Do not stand in our way: we will walk around you"
- the 'Perky Goth Manifesto'
--
William Morgan
<dal...@nfld.com> writes
>I would like to know the meaning of the word "Ogyrwen" as used in the
>poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach), a 6th century Welsh poet and mystic who
>I believe I am similar to.
>
being or form; a personified idea.' W. F. Skene claims that it is a
synonym for the Goddess Ceridwen.
Snipped...
--
Willie Morgan
Is your hard disk so called because of the porn stored there?
David Dalton
> what do you think of the scholars and studies that seem to strongly
> suggest that Taliesin was in fact a much later poet, from at the
> earliest 11th century and most likely 14th (ie that the Book of Taliesin
> which is known to be fourteenth century merely accredited its poetry to
> an earlier age, to the sixth century)? and that he in fact can be fixed
> as the poet of only one or two of the poems he is currently accredited
> with?
I hadn't heard that , and would appreciate any reference you might
have on the subject. I think the Matthews book says 6th century
but I will have to check it again soon. But regardless of whether
he is 6th century or 14th century, several of the poems in Matthews'
book Taliesin are consistent for me. The tale of how he is found
in a net, the three drops of wisdom, and after the crack of the
cauldron flees the goddess's wrath and is imprisoned three times
by Arianrhod and inspired three times by Ceridwen and later mentions
of seven score muses and eight score in every score and inspired three
times by Ogyrwen, and the inspiring brew aged over five cauldrons,
all in several poems, indicate to me that the poems are by a
poet who had experiences similar to mine.
If the seven score
muses is exact my next high will begin in late December but I
am hoping for one beginning around Oct. 29 in time for Samhain.
And if my next high is exactly the seven years Cu Chulainn spent
serving as hound to the smith after my low years started it will
begin in late January. Or if instead of 7 years it is 88.5 lunar
months (the number of pairs of birds associated with Cu Chulainn's
birth, 90 pairs minus three birds) it will begin in late March.
But I did have a shaky day 5.5 lunar months (eight score days,
five cauldrons) before Oct. 29. But maybe for the Ogyrwen there
is no 5.5 lunar month precursor, at least there wasn't for my
first high.
> I have read several views from both sides of the debate and have to say
> the likelihood seems to me to be that he was in fact a later poet..but I
> would be interested to hear to the contrary...any thoughts?
It doesn't matter to me if he was a later or earlier poet. But I
suspect that there was a 14th century compiler/editor who drew
on earlier sources. Again, I would appreciate any references
you might have to online or library sources. And maybe some
other readers will comment.
David
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"William Morgan" <wil...@infoseek.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
> Pughe's Welsh Dictionary defines Gogyrwen (aka Ogyrwen) as 'a spiritual
> being or form; a personified idea.' W. F. Skene claims that it is a
> synonym for the Goddess Ceridwen.
Pughe's Welsh dictionary was one of the worst things that ever happened to
Welsh scholarship. He simply made up things if they didn't exist and he
decided to create whole classes of words out of suffixes and prefixes - he
also tried to massively change the grammar of the language in such a way
that no Welsh speaker could understand it.
According to Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru - the University of Wales Welsh
dictionary:
"gogyrfen [a personal name taken from the ancient poetry by Iolo Morgannwg
and given a new meaning] feminine noun ?letter; branch; symbol; element;
spiritual form; personification"
I have translated parts of the above where it was not given in English and
have expanded the abreviations. As for the word Ogyrfen it says see Ogrfen
Ogrfen &c feminine noun ?muse, inspiration, poetry.
Hope this helps.
Muiris
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David Dalton
> Then the three times inspired by Ogyrwen would be the same as the
> three times inspired by Ceridwen and would not imply three solar
> sunspot cycles spanning from the age of 27 to three score years
> of age (27, 38, 49, 60).
But that would be four times inspired by Ogyrwen anyway.
Maybe when Taliesin was writing at the age of three score
years he was awaiting his fourth inspiration by Ogyrwen
and I still believe that when he used the name Ogyrwen
instead of Ceridwen he was referring to the first
inspiration of a solar sunspot cycle and that he used
the name Ceridwen to refer to the other highs in a
solar sunspot cycle. Thus my waning crescent high
of Sept., 1991 could be called an inspiration by
Ogyrwen and the waning crescent highs of June 1993,
Jan. 1994, July 1994 and Aug/Sept 1994 could be
called inspirations by Ceridwen, in Taliesin's notation.
And I expect another high within the next few months
based on Taliesin's "Seven score muses
There are in the inspiration of song" where I interpret
the seven score muses as seven score lunar months from
my Sept. 1991 waning crescent high which would be
late December, 2002. If this occurs then or sooner or
later, within a few months, I will have more evidence
that I am similar to Taliesin and I will update my web
page and post updates to a few newsgroups including
alt.religion.druid . Also during the high I would
try to write some poetry (but my sister Mary Dalton
is a much better poet than I am).
David
David Dalton
> In message <aomm6q$u89$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, David Dalton
> <dal...@nfld.com> writes
>>I would like to know the meaning of the word "Ogyrwen" as used in the
>>poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach), a 6th century Welsh poet and mystic who
>>I believe I am similar to.
>>
> Pughe's Welsh Dictionary defines Gogyrwen (aka Ogyrwen) as 'a spiritual
> being or form; a personified idea.' W. F. Skene claims that it is a
> synonym for the Goddess Ceridwen.
Then the three times inspired by Ogyrwen would be the same as the
three times inspired by Ceridwen and would not imply three solar
sunspot cycles spanning from the age of 27 to three score years
of age (27, 38, 49, 60).
But even if that is true I believe the seven score muses are
seven score lunar months, or about an 11 year solar sunspot
cycle (11 years is 136 lunar months but a sunspot cycle
isn't exactly 11 years). I should have some evidence
for this within the next few months and I will keep
alt.religion.druid posted as to when my next waning
crescent high happens.
Thanks for the definition, William.
David
Searles O'Dubhain
> used in the poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach),
<snip>
Here's what Iolo said about them:
"THE PRINCIPAL ELEMENTS OF VARIOUS THINGS - THE GOGYRVENS.
The three principal elements of everything: power; matter; and mode.
The three principal elements of sciences: life, intellect; and
affection.
The three elements of wisdom: object; mode; and benefit.
The three elements of memorials: understanding from affection;
distinctive sign; and reverence for the better.
The three elements of letters, /|\; that is to say, from a combination
of one or other of the three are letters made. They are the three rays
of light. And of these are made the sixteen gogyrvens, that is the
sixteen letters. According to a different arrangement there are seven
gogyrvens and seven, the seven words and seven score in the Alphabet of
thee Cymraeg being no other than a sign of worthiness; and it is from
them that every other word proceeds. Others say seven score and seven
hundred words."
These letters were supposedly put on rods of the quicken tree (Aspen) by
Einigan the Giant after he beheld the "three pillars of light" (the
Awen).
Searles
Dave
"Amlyn" <am...@defynnog.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aomsh1$8sj$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
Dave
Handid rydd fy nhafawd yn addawd gwawd Ogyrfen."
And also my Welsh butties.
"Saith ugain ogyrfen y sydd yn awen."
It seems to mean the personification or formation of an idea or principle,
that is to say like an angel or something. The word could also possibly be
used to describe an avatar.news:H9Ijf7D4...@infoseek.fsworld.co.uk...
: In message <aomm6q$u89$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>, David Dalton
Dave
to the received wisdom of this newsgroup means that he was not a Welshman at
all but an Anglo-Saxon as proven by genetic testing by a certain Professor
Thomas.Taliesin invented a conlang (constructed language) called Cumbric.
Every schoolboy at some time has invented a conlang, even Muiris did it once
or so he claims, so Taliesin was just a spotty Anglo-Saxon secondary school
boy who wrote things on bog walls while visiting Wales on his school
holidays. Dave: I would like to know the meaning of the word "Ogyrwen" as
Dave
that Taliesin did not come from Wales. Dave
"Beirn" <buibh...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtBr9.8147$cP3....@news.iol.ie...
: Hiya David, I read your post with interest and wondered,
:
:
Searles O'Dubhain
"Dave" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:aonjbf$1fs$6...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> Taliesin came from North-West England/South-West Scotland, which
according
> to the received wisdom of this newsgroup means that he was not a
Welshman at
> all but an Anglo-Saxon as proven by genetic testing by a certain
Professor
> Thomas.
I believe these people are called the "Men of the North." Aren't they
Celts instead of being Anglo-Saxon?
Searles
Certic
> And where was Rheged/Elfed. In Wales? I think not. Dave
Rheged corresponds to modern Cumbria and Galloway. I've never heard of
"Elfed" but would take it to be a later "Cambricisation" of Elmet, a Celtic
kingdom centred on Leeds in what is now West Yorkshire, which was absorbed
by Northumbria in the mid 7th century.
Amlyn
:-)
Certic <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:aopmcq$lqn$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
Amlyn
Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> imagined in message
news:aonjbi$1fs$8...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> And where was Rheged/Elfed. In Wales? I think not. Dave
No. It was where Leeds is now. Didn't you know?
Is it not written down in your "Historica Make-a-up-a Cumbric"?
Amlyn
> "Neud amug y'nghadair o bair Cyrridwen,
> Handid rydd fy nhafawd yn addawd gwawd Ogyrfen."
> And also my Welsh butties.
> "Saith ugain ogyrfen y sydd yn awen."
This is early Welsh/proto-Welsh
Amlyn
> Taliesin came from North-West England/South-West Scotland, which according
> to the received wisdom of this newsgroup means that he was not a Welshman
at
> all but an Anglo-Saxon as proven by genetic testing by a certain Professor
> Thomas.Taliesin invented a conlang (constructed language) called Cumbric.
> Every schoolboy at some time has invented a conlang, even Muiris did it
once
> or so he claims, so Taliesin was just a spotty Anglo-Saxon secondary
school
> boy who wrote things on bog walls while visiting Wales on his school
> holidays.
Good one. ;-)
Where did prof. Tomos get the DNA?
According to another certain proffessor Thomas, "Yr Hen Ogledd" is becoming
popular amongst Saeson who like to invent things and pretend they are
descendants of once great warriors. When in fact they are not, because these
once great warriors pissed off to what is now called Wales when things
started getting bad "up north", do the descendants are amongst the Welsh.
Poor Dave. :-(
Dave
: Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: news:aonjbi$1fs$8...@knossos.btinternet.com...
: > And where was Rheged/Elfed. In Wales? I think not. Dave
: -------
: Rheged corresponds to modern Cumbria and Galloway. I've never heard of
: "Elfed" but would take it to be a later "Cambricisation" of Elmet, a
Celtic
: kingdom centred on Leeds in what is now West Yorkshire, which was absorbed
: by Northumbria in the mid 7th century.
Northumbria? What on earth was that? The Ven.Bede divided Britain into
Northumberland, which was above the River Humber, and Southumberland. Elmet,
which still exists, was above the Humber and so was in Northumberland unlike
Cardif which being south of the Humber was/is in Southumberland or
"Southumbia".
:
: --
:
:
Dave
:
: Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> imagined in message
Your ignorance is phenomenal!
Dave
"Searles O'Dubhain" <odub...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:bhCdncj827T...@News.GigaNews.Com...
:
: "Dave" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
Dave
country and not like Brigantia that has more Celts in it that Ireland,
Wales, Scotland, Cornwall, and the Isle of Man put together, Poor Amlyn!news:aops8v$ita$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
: > Taliesin came from North-West England/South-West Scotland, which
:
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
>
> That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
Not a single one - even those whose parents might have moved up there?
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Fifleche
> These letters were supposedly put on rods of the quicken tree (Aspen) by
> Einigan the Giant after he beheld the "three pillars of light" (the
> Awen).
>
> Searles
The three pillars of light... Wouldn't that be the Tribann, instead of
the Awen?
On a related note, could someone give me a precise definition of the
term "Awen"? I've seen it used to describe the "holy spirit", divine in
essence but external to oneself, and to define the divine "particle" within
oneself, beside the use given here... I am now unsure of the precise use of
the term, so I could use a hand here, as I am now quite confused...
Thanx,
Fifleche.
Searles O'Dubhain
"Fifleche" <fifl...@videotron.ca> wrote in message
news:uP2s9.13313$Mi5.2...@weber.videotron.net...
Again, according to Iolo:
""The three foundations of Awen from God: to understand the truth; to
love the truth; and to [maintain] the truth, so that nothing may prevail
against it."
Also
"THE SACRED SYMBOL
/|\. That is to say, they are called the three columns, and the three
columns of truth, because there can be no knowledge of the truth, but
from the light thrown upon it; and the three columns of sciences,
because there can be no sciences, but from the light and the truth."
In another place, he says that /|\ is IAU, which is the name of God. It
is clear from reading Barddas that Iolo considered Awen, /|\, IAU and
God to all be aspects of the same thing: "innate justice; habitual
kindness; and natural understanding" also "energetic industry; correct
meditation; and courteous affection." Awen is the same as Imbas. It is
the knowledge that illuminates.
Searles
Searles O'Dubhain
<snip>
> :
> That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
>
Give my regards to the "Old Tyke."
Searles
Fifleche
(/|\), the "3 screams", would be considered an emanation of IOW, rather than
IOW Himself? A bit like the Sephiroth in QBL, I guess.
If I understand correctly, Awen would be the path one must follow, according
to Iolo, while if we look at the tale of Einigan the Giant it would rather
be a Divine emanation...
Any ideas?
Fifleche.
"Searles O'Dubhain" <odub...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mD6dnScYbqD...@comcast.com...
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
> Again, according to Iolo:
>
> ""The three foundations of Awen from God: to understand the truth; to
> love the truth; and to [maintain] the truth, so that nothing may prevail
> against it."
Awen is however a common and natural Welsh word. It meanings as given in
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Welsh Dictionary) are:
Poetic gift, genius or inpiration, the muse
The second meaning is:
bridle rein, mandible, jaw bone, cheek
As for Iau - that is the Welsh for the god Jupiter.
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Searles O'Dubhain
> Thanks for the info, but wouldn`t it be more appropriate that the
Tribann
> (/|\), the "3 screams", would be considered an emanation of IOW,
rather than
> IOW Himself? A bit like the Sephiroth in QBL, I guess.
>
> If I understand correctly, Awen would be the path one must follow,
according
> to Iolo, while if we look at the tale of Einigan the Giant it would
rather
> be a Divine emanation...
>
> Any ideas?
Awen is the same thing as inspiration. It is considered to be a gift
from spirit. Among Poets it is the highest inspiration which is a form
of enlightenment or a knowledge of everything. It is a state of knowing
everything, understanding everything, being everything. It is the place,
time and the creation.
Among Celts, knowing the true name of something/someone means completely
knowing and consequently having the power of a thing. This is why the
name, the being, the action and the creation are all considered to be
the same thing though perhaps their usage, manifestation or appearance
are seemingly different.
Awen is the experience of these things through truth, knowledge and
inspiration.
Searles
Certic
>
> "Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:aopmcq$lqn$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
> :
> : Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> : news:aonjbi$1fs$8...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> : > And where was Rheged/Elfed. In Wales? I think not. Dave
> : -------
> : Rheged corresponds to modern Cumbria and Galloway. I've never heard of
> : "Elfed" but would take it to be a later "Cambricisation" of Elmet, a
> Celtic
> : kingdom centred on Leeds in what is now West Yorkshire, which was
absorbed
> : by Northumbria in the mid 7th century.
>
> Northumbria? What on earth was that? The Ven.Bede divided Britain into
> Northumberland, which was above the River Humber, and Southumberland.
Elmet,
> which still exists, was above the Humber and so was in Northumberland
unlike
> Cardif which being south of the Humber was/is in Southumberland or
> "Southumbia".
Northumbria is a Latinisation of OE Noržanhymbre. Northumberland is an
Anglicisation of the Scandinavian name Noršymbraland.
Certic
So you agree with 1066 And All That the the Saxons "forced the Britons west,
compelling them to become Welsh"?
Fifleche
"Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Q69s9.155$eg6....@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
>
> As for Iau - that is the Welsh for the god Jupiter.
Are you sure about that one? Not that I'm questionning your ability in
any ways, but rather, are you sure about your source? IOM was found in Gaul
(present day France) on statues depicting Jupiter/Lugos (Lleu/Lugh; a
Jupiter statue with depictions of Lugos's attributes, like the wheel, who
were never part, to my knowledge, of Jupiter's attributes), while IOW was
found in the "Inner Sanctum" ("Holy of Holy", "Saint des Saints", "Sanctum
Sanctorum"), where no statues/depictions are. I thus came to the conclusion
that IOM referred to the male part of the Divinity, in it's cosmic,
universal sense, while IOW referred to the Divinity as a whole,
gender-neutral, all-encompassing. On a side note, the female part, I equate
with Vouivre, the "Earth Dragon", ie: the divine form of the serpent, Mother
Nature and the physical planet itself. Vouivre comes from Nwyvre, the
"flour" of the air, and the term was transformed into the modern english
word Wyvern.
As I worked, quite recently, exclusively with french sources, thus
centering on Gaul (the French are, sadly, quite ethnocentric), I may be in
the wrong. I started looking into Celtic cultures that survived the Roman
invasions (Scotland and Ireland), so as to access a tradition that survived
better. Feel free to correct me, and thanks for your info.
Fifleche.
David Dalton
>"Searles O'Dubhain" <odub...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:WUSdnXBkBZ0...@News.GigaNews.Com...
>> These letters were supposedly put on rods of the quicken tree (Aspen) by
>> Einigan the Giant after he beheld the "three pillars of light" (the
>> Awen).
>>
>> Searles
> The three pillars of light... Wouldn't that be the Tribann, instead of
>the Awen?
I think that the three pillars of light (/|\) are the clear sky
lightning (personified as the seraphim in the Old Testament)
that often comes before the onset of a waning crescent high
(which Taliesin called the inspiration of Ceridwen or Ogyrwen).
For me, clear sky lightning came just before or at the onset
of my Sept., 1991, June 1993 and Aug/Sept 1994 waning
crescent highs but not before my Jan. 1994 and July 1994
waning crescent highs (but the January 1994 one was marked
by extremely variable weather and on its second day by
extremely high winds, which are personified as the cherubim
in the Old Testament).
My waning crescent highs and some poetry fragments are
described in
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sbio.html
which is a subpage of my Salmon on the Thorns page
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/dtales.html .
In particular the three highs that were marked by clear
sky lightning (which I think is due to solar flare
effects on the ionosphere) are described in
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/sundance.html
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/screech.html
where I also refer to the lightning as Lugh's lance
which I think has five prongs (or is that his spear)
which might represent the 5.5 lunar months from
waxing gibbous moon trial onset to waning crescent high onset
and
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/aug94.html .
The other two highs are described in
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/bear.html
and
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/jul94.html
but the July 1994 one wasn't as significant as the
others and began just a day before new moon so I had
to wind down quickly at new moon with the help of
some haloperidol to escape the "crack of the cauldron"
(new moon, and just after) fear. But usually new
moon is a strong time for me, but when I have a
waning crescent high I must wind down by new moon.
Also in that July 1994 one I had a fair bit of alcohol
when now I think during a high I won't drink within
3--4 days of new moon and won't have caffeine, whereas
when not in a high I abstain from alcohol during
waxing moon but drink some during waning moon, but not
on the day of new moon (but I do on the day of full
moon after the exact time of full moon). So I change
water to wine (beer) at or just after full moon.
The cherubim and seraphim stuff is described in
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/jewish.html
where I also mention that anointing by the horn
of oil could mean waning crescent moon (the horn)
inspiration (the oil).
Did Taliesin use the word awen? I don't mention awen in
http://www.nfld.com/~dalton/celtic.html
but I guess I should.
When my highs resume, which should be in the next
few months, perhaps beginning as early as Oct. 29
in time for Samhain, my low years should be over
and hence my creativity should return (it has been
low for the last seven years) even between the highs.
I will try to make a point of doing some poetry
during the highs but then it would likely be playful,
and also some lyrics and poems between the highs,
some based on the experience of the highs. But I
also do have a Ph.D. in geophysics to work on.
David
1X2 Willows
> [....]
> IOM was found in Gaul (present day France)
Gaul included present day France, Belgium, Luxemburg and parts
of the Netherlands, Western and Southern Germany as well as
all of Switzerland and Austria North of the Alps.
- maybe even Lichtenstein... :-)
Dan
Searles O'Dubhain
"Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Q69s9.155$eg6....@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Awen is however a common and natural Welsh word. It meanings as given
in
> Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Welsh Dictionary)
are:
>
> Poetic gift, genius or inpiration, the muse
>
Imbas and/or Awen are much more than what we coonsider to be inspiration
in the practices of Druids and Filidh. They are a knowlege of
illuminattion, foretelling and mantic insight. That the word is in use
in the common vernaculaer should not diminish its original meaning and
function.
> The second meaning is:
> bridle rein, mandible, jaw bone, cheek
>
> As for Iau - that is the Welsh for the god Jupiter.
>
I'm not suggesting that everything Iolo has to say about Barddism or
Druidry is 100% traditional or reliable. Let the reader beware. At the
same time understanding what he was trying to say does give insights,
though sometimes they are only insights into Iolo himself.
My own name can mean fishhook or kidney, yet it can also mean the Dark
One or the Dark Haired One.
The ways that culture shapes language is as interesting as the way that
language shapes culture.
Searles
Fifleche
way, ppl could know which tribes we're dealing with, as Germanic Gaul would
have been influenced by the Germanic tribes. Oh, and btw, it also
encompassed north of Italy (Cisalpine Gaul).
Fifleche.
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:7Lks9.3338$U97.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Stacey
> of the Netherlands, Western and Southern Germany as well as
> all of Switzerland and Austria North of the Alps.
> - maybe even Lichtenstein... :-)
>
> Dan
What is the dividing line between Northern and Southern Gaul and which
present day countries made up which?
Stacey
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
>
> "Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:Q69s9.155$eg6....@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> >
> >
> > As for Iau - that is the Welsh for the god Jupiter.
>
> Are you sure about that one? Not that I'm questionning your ability in
> any ways, but rather, are you sure about your source?
Yeah - I'm pretty sure of my source. It's me! I speak Welsh (and am an
accredited Welsh/English translator and a member of the Association of Welsh
Translators, which is our professional body, and is recognised as such by
the Welsh Language Board). However if you want me to provide some sources
who say that Iau is the Welsh for Jupiter:
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru - A dictionary of the Welsh Language (actually the
University of Wales's dictionary of the Welsh language and the authoritative
dictionary - it is being published bit by bit from its offices in the
National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth)
Geiriadur Gomer i'r Ifanc - Gomer
The Welsh Academy English and Welsh Dictionary
Spurrell's English and Welsh Dictionary (1872) - where it is translated as
Jove.
Iau is also the modern Welsh for the planted Jupiter -
www.aber.ac.uk/~delwww/delta-e-06/d6e-07.pdf
To modern Welsh speakers the words Awen and Iau have clear meanings and
there is no ambiguity in their meaning. I know plenty of poets who speak of
'yr awen' and they use it as I have described. These terms are no more
esoteric to me and other Welsh speakers than would 'mystery' be to most
English speakers.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 16/10/02
1X2 Willows
> Yes, I know, that's why I precised that it was in present-day France.
Greets, Fifleche
If you meant to pinpoint the location of this one IOM find to present day
France (which you probably did), then I could nothing but agree, of course.
This group is known to be rather 'ethnocentric' on the Insular side of
'celtic' matters, so I usually barge in when the sci-talk comes to the
Continent. Apologies, myLady... it's merely a habit. Åš-)
> Oh, and btw, it also encompassed north of Italy (Cisalpine Gaul).
Now that's another cup of Cervisia for me.
Wasn't Cisalpine Gaul only in existence way before the time when that IOM
reference was produced? As always, I could be wrong...
Dan
1X2 Willows
> What is the dividing line between Northern and Southern Gaul and which
> present day countries made up which?
Hi Stacey
As you probably know, the geographical areas of political influence
(tribal for Celts, imperial for Romans) at the time were more than fluid
and changed normally by the decade, often by the year and in specific
cases by the day. Curse that dreadful 28th of March 58BCE! ;-)
My field of 'expertise' (whoohoo) is the era around the beginning of the
Gallic Wars - termed by Julius himself {I'd term them the Julius Wars
myself... ;-} - but anyway... I've got a decent map of the borderline
between Celts and Romans at this time right here:
http://www.euro-celts.com/media/images/CeltMap02.jpg
[that scribbly line separating the Sequani from the Allobroges]
Cisalpine/Southern Gaul was not in existence anymore, at that time.
Greets
Dan
Fifleche
> Greets, Fifleche
>
> If you meant to pinpoint the location of this one IOM find to present day
> France (which you probably did), then I could nothing but agree, of
course.
Greets, 1X2 Willows
I am only aware of one IOM find, and that's it. I know that there must
be several others, but I do not know of any presently. I would, however,
appreciate learning of other similar finds...
> This group is known to be rather 'ethnocentric' on the Insular side of
> 'celtic' matters, so I usually barge in when the sci-talk comes to the
> Continent. Apologies, myLady... it's merely a habit. ｦ-)
Apologies accepted, and I did remark the emphasis on the "insular" side
of Celtic culture. That's one of the reasons I joined in the first place, to
have access to non-french sources. Oh, and btw, that would be m'Lord, not
MyLady... :p
> Now that's another cup of Cervisia for me.
> Wasn't Cisalpine Gaul only in existence way before the time when that IOM
> reference was produced? As always, I could be wrong...
>
> Dan
I never encountered cervisia... Cervesa, cervoise, I know of. Is it an
"insular" form, or a misprint? And on the matter of the IOM reference, ALL
of Gaul only existed as an administrative unit in the Roman Empire when it
was produced. As I said, it was a statue of Jupiter/Lugos, and that surely
wouldn't be produced by free, unlatinised Celts! It is dated at around
50-100 of the modern era. Before the christianisation of the Roman Empire,
anyways.
Fifleche.
Fifleche
news:mtls9.3761$071.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> What is the dividing line between Northern and Southern Gaul and which
> present day countries made up which?
>
> Stacey
Of Northern and Southern Gaul, I know nothing of. I can however say
that, at the start of Julius Caesar's invasion, it was divided thus:
Cisalpine Gaul (or, the Gaul "this side" of the Alps, from Rome's
point-of-view), and Transalpine Gaul ("the other side" of the Alps).
Transalpine Gaul was subdivised into Narbonese Gaul (already a conquered
territory when the invasions began), Aquitaine Gaul, Celtic Gaul, and Belgic
Gaul.
From what I understand, Cisalpine Gaul consisted of most of Northern
Italy and a little bit of Southern Swiss, Narbonese Gaul covered southern
France up to, and including Tolosa (Toulouse) westwards, while stopping at
the foot of the Pyrennes at the south, Aquitaine Gaul was from Tolosa to the
Ocean, and went a bit further north, too, Belgic Gaul covered Belgium, the
Netherlands, Luxemburg, a bit of Germany, and the northernmost part of
France, While Celtic Gaul encompassed the rest of France, Switzerland almost
totally, a bit of Austria and a bit of Germany.
Fifleche.
Fifleche
> Cisalpine/Southern Gaul was not in existence anymore, at that time.
>
> Greets
> Dan
While it was not an independant political unit, it still existed, as the
Romans used the term themselves when referring to that province.
Fifleche.
Fifleche
> Yeah - I'm pretty sure of my source. It's me! I speak Welsh (and am an
> accredited Welsh/English translator and a member of the Association of
Welsh
> Translators, which is our professional body, and is recognised as such by
> the Welsh Language Board). However if you want me to provide some sources
> who say that Iau is the Welsh for Jupiter:
<<Snips a whole lot of references>>
I have not, let me restate myself, doubted your ability, but still, I
ask about a word found engraved on a statue of Jupiter/Lugos in France,
Armorique to be more precise, about what could've been it's meaning, and not
what modern-day Welsh speakers have for meaning about said word, as you did
answer me. That is, of course, unless you can tell me that modern-day Welsh
language uses the same meaning for IOM as did the Gauls about two thousand
years ago. I am no linguist, but I doubt the word wouldn't have changed in
meaning, at least a bit.
> To modern Welsh speakers the words Awen and Iau have clear meanings and
> there is no ambiguity in their meaning. I know plenty of poets who speak
of
> 'yr awen' and they use it as I have described. These terms are no more
> esoteric to me and other Welsh speakers than would 'mystery' be to most
> English speakers.
I am not a Welsh-speaking person, and I doubt I will have the chance to
learn some day. But, studying Celtic Gaul has the advantage that you're
dealing with a "calcified" culture, in that it has stopped existing, while
"insular" Celtic culture continued evolving, and thus some things inevitably
did change, thus creating confusion with some surviving concepts. Again, I
am NOT questionning your abilities in any ways, but unless you can prove me
(which I hope, since it would clarify things a whole lot) that modern-day
Welsh and antique Gaulois have the same meaning for IOM, I cannot use your
definition.
Thanks anyways for the effort,
Fifleche.
gerald.copp
>
> "Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:Q69s9.155$eg6....@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> <snip>
> >
> > Awen is however a common and natural Welsh word. It meanings as given
> in
> > Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (the University of Wales Welsh Dictionary)
> are:
> >
> > Poetic gift, genius or inpiration, the muse
> >
>
> Imbas and/or Awen are much more than what we coonsider to be inspiration
> in the practices of Druids and Filidh. They are a knowlege of
> illuminattion, foretelling and mantic insight. That the word is in use
> in the common vernaculaer should not diminish its original meaning and
> function.
>
Well, if you want '_original_ meaning and function' how far back do you want
to go?
Talhaearn Tad Awen, attributed to the sixth century by Nennius in ' Historia
Brittonum', has always been translated as Talhaearn 'father of the muse' or
'father of inspiration'. Do you have a source that gives all these
additional esoteric meanings to a word that has been used since the middle
of the sixth century?
gerald.copp
>
> "Dave" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:aoq0af$mga$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
> >
> > That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
>
> Not a single one - even those whose parents might have moved up there?
My Aunty Gladys knew a firemen from Kent (or his name was Kent, or she
called him Kent) and he moved to Carlisle when she told him she was pregnant
with our cousin Idwal - so there's at least one Anglo-Saxon in the north of
England, that's if Carlisle isn't in Scotland. I bet there's a least two,
though by now.
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote in message
news:FJEs9.5379$eg6.3...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
> Talhaearn Tad Awen, attributed to the sixth century by Nennius in '
Historia
> Brittonum', has always been translated as Talhaearn 'father of the muse'
or
> 'father of inspiration'. Do you have a source that gives all these
> additional esoteric meanings to a word that has been used since the middle
> of the sixth century?
Well asked - the only meanings we can ascribe to the word is that used by
Welsh speakers at different periods of time - and to do that we have to have
evidence of what the meaning was. The only way that we know that 'Awen'
could be translated as 'muse' is because Welsh speakers use it as such and
have done so. I fail to see how others can claim that a word had an
original meaning along the lines of being
"much more than what we consider to be inspiration in the practices of
Druids and Filidh. They are a knowledge of illumination, foretelling and
mantic insight. That the word is in use in the common vernacular should not
diminish its original meaning and function."
In fact I would love to see a single document from the 6th (or 8th - if you
believe some scholars - one of the essay questions I had for my degree was
to weigh up the pro and cons for a 8th century date for poetry of this
period) which says something along the lines of 'we now use the word Awen to
mean a muse BUT at one time they used to use it to mean ...."
Muiris
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
> "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
> Is Kent the only English county still with
> its original Welsh name in English, then?
No - Yorkshire comes from a Welsh name, Efrog + shire.
Devon - Dyfnaint
Cornwal - Cernyw
Searles O'Dubhain
"gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote in message
news:FJEs9.5379$eg6.3...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> Well, if you want '_original_ meaning and function' how far back do
you want
> to go?
>
> Talhaearn Tad Awen, attributed to the sixth century by Nennius in '
Historia
> Brittonum', has always been translated as Talhaearn 'father of the
muse' or
> 'father of inspiration'. Do you have a source that gives all these
> additional esoteric meanings to a word that has been used since the
middle
> of the sixth century?
The information I was providing comes from Barddas by Iolo Morganwyg. As
to how authentic it is, let the reader beware of Iolo's "creativity."
OTOH, my sources for information on Imbas come from Cormac's Glossary,
The Cauldron of Poesy materials, Auraicept na n-Éces, and an essay on
the topic by Nora K. Chadwick. That can be found at this URL:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4715/imbasforosnai.html
Besides all that , I don't think you understand what "poetic
inspiration" means in the context of a Bard, a File, or a Draoi using
it. In fact, if one were to read Robin Skelton's _The Poet's Calling_,
the matter of poetic inspiration is defined and described as follows:
By John Montague (p. 19 in reference to "total understanding as the
Divine Sophia")
"There are two things mixed up here. There are two primary experience in
the formation of the poetic psyche. I say two primary ones but there are
lots of other experiences as well. One is the experience of the Universe
of Energies, of the earth as a ball, as something that you're on. This
can come quite early. I once tracked down when it happened to me but I
prefer to keep that secret. This kind of light as to the whole, this
illumination as to the power of the Universe upon which you move, can be
seen also in terms of a concrete figure, like the Apollo whom Mr. Graves
chooses to deny, who in Celtic Myth would be something like the
stag-headed God, a figure of total understanding. The Collected Poems of
Diarmid open with this vision. It is also the end of Dante. It is the
supreme experience of knowledge."
According to Joseph Campbell (page 25)
"... a fundamental idea of all pagan disciplines, both of the Orient and
the Occident, during the period of which we are writing (first
Millennium B.C.), was that the inward turning of the mind (symbolized by
the sunset) should culminate in a realization in esse of the individual
(microcosm) and the universe (macrocosm), which when achieved, would
bring together in one order of act and realization the principles of
eternity and time, sun and moon, male and female, Hermes and Aphrodite
(Hermphroditus) and the two serpents of the caduceus."
According to Robin Skelton (page 19)
"Though to many readers this closely woven mesh of interpretations may
seem little more than a farrago, it is unlikely to seem absurd to a
poet, for the kind of symbolic connections by means of verbal echoes
which I have adduced are precisely those which animate his imagination
when writing poems. Moreover the poet is always able to be convinced of
the truth of an experience when it can be shown to contain this tightly
woven system of interpenetrating references. I can myself, however, no
more summarize the precise meaning of my vision of Drachmae Levaun than
I can summarize the experience of an true poem. I can only gloss it, as
I might gloss a poem, with one or two tentative comments. I would
suggest therefore that my vision of the Muse as both `Wisdom
(Minerva-Athena) and as Sexual Love (Hermes, Aphrodite, the lame God and
the Horn): she showed herself open to receive and harbour (Portus) the
offspring (Hermaphrodite) of Eloquence (Hermes) and Love (Aphrodite),
and she established herself as the goddess of my ancestors (Brigantia)
and offered wealth (Drachme)."
Poetic inspiration is not a mundane act or action. It is a connection of
the inner self to all that is. To describe it or limit as you seem to be
doing shows an ignorance and an absence of the experience in your own
life. As Skelton calls it (pages 18 and 19):
"This 'foretaste of Paradise' can be experienced either once or several
times and can take many forms. Robert Sward experienced it at the age of
eighteen while serving in the U.S. Navy. While walking the deck alone he
was suddenly overcome by a sense of illimitable radiant power and total
understanding of all the forces in the Universe. He was even convinced
momentarily that he could fly. I remember a number of such experiences;
they usually took place in solitude in a wood or, once, on a lonely
beach. In my case these experiences were of total communion with the
forces of earth and of nature; it seemed as if I had taken on a
knowledge that made me one with the universe."
Finally, I leave you with the words of Amergin (as translated by Erynn
Laurie, Obsidian Magazine):
"There are then two divisions of joy that turn the Cauldron of Wisdom,
i.e., divine joy and human joy.
In human joy there are four divisions among the wise. Sexual intimacy;
the joy of health untroubled by the abundance of goading when a person
takes up the prosperity of bardcraft; the joy of the binding principle
of wisdom after good (poetic) construction; and, joy of fitting poetic
frenzy from the grinding away at the fair nuts of the nine hazels on the
Well of Segais in the Sědhe realm. They cast themselves in great
quantities like a ram's fleece upon the ridges of the Boyne, moving
against the stream swifter than racehorses driven in the middle-month on
the magnificent day every seven years.
The Gods touch a person through divine and human joys so that they are
able to speak prophetic poems and dispense wisdom and perform miracles,
as well as offering wise judgment and giving precedents and wisdom in
answer to everyone's wishes. But the source of these joys (the Gods) is
outside the person although the actual cause of the joy is internal. "
The URL for her entire essay is:
http://www.obsidianmagazine.com/Pages/cauldronpoesy.html
Searles
Searles O'Dubhain
According to Rachel Bromwich in her Trioedd Ynys Prydein, the traditions
from the *ninth* century onwards which are incorporated in (among
others) Haynes Taliesin regarding how the boy Gwion Bach received the
magic drops of poetic inspiration. Taliesin's reputation for magical
prowess increased in the tales of the tenth and eleventh centuries in
Wales.
In Nora Chadwick's essay on Imbas Forosnai we find:
"It will be seen that the phenomenon of the Awenithion (or, more
properly, Awenyddion) resembles that of the imbas forosnai as described
for us in the Glossary, and as illustrated by the stories of Finn. The
name is derived from the word awen or poetic (mantic) inspiration, and
is generally conferred on a person in a mantic sleep. These people
become rapt in an ecstasy (cf. 'imbas forosnai') in which they deliver
themselves of speech which is not easily intelligible because the
utterances are veiled (cf. the Irish rhetorics), and apparently
contradictory and highly figurative. Often such people have to be shaken
violently before they can recover their normal condition. We do not know
the exact source of Giraldus' account. It may have been based on
contemporary custom, as he himself avers ; or it may, as I suspect, be
derived from literary (oral) tradition, like the entry in the Glossary.
But whatever the source, there can be little doubt that in the time of
Giraldus a practice similar to that of imbas forosnai was known in
Wales, either as a living practice or a literary motif.
Talhaern, a poet of the Britons who is mentioned in the Historia
Brittonum, as living in the time of Maelgwn, King of Gwynedd (548), is
said to have been called Tataguen, i.e., 'father of awen or poetic
(mantic) inspiration,' and to have been a contemporary of the poet
Taliesin, who almost certainly lived in the middle of the sixth century.
The similarity of the poetry traditionally ascribed to Taliesin, to that
ascribed - also by tradition - to the poet Nede and to the fili Amargin
has already been commented on. There can, indeed, be little doubt that
early traditions in this country imply the existence at an early date of
a phenomenon similar to imbas forosnai. We have seen that Irish
tradition suggests that the art was in a more advanced condition in this
country, since it was from this country that, according to the same
tradition, the earliest exponents known to Irish legend derived their
art. "
In Patrick Ford's _The Mabinogi_ on pages 172 and 173:
"I was with my Lord in the heavens
When Lucifer fell into the depth of hell;
I carried a banner before Alexander;
I know the stars names from the North to the South
I was in the fort of Gwydion, in the Tetragramaton;
I was in the canon when Absolon was killed;
I brought seed down to the vale of Hebron;
I was in the court of Don before the birth of Gwydion;
I was patriarch to Elijah and Enoch;
I was head keeper on the work of Nimrod's Tower;
I was atop the cross of the merciful son of God;
I was three times in the prison of Arianrhod;
I was in the Ark with Noah and Alpha;
I witnessed the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah;
I was in Africa before the building of Rome;
I came here to the survivors of Troy.
And I was with my Lord in the manger of oxen and asses;
I upheld Moses through the water of Jordan;
I was in the sky with Mary Magdalen;
I got *poetic inspiration* from the Cauldron of Ceridwen;
I was a poet-harper to Lleon Llychlyn;
I was in Gwynfryn in the court of Cynfelyn;
In stock and fetters a day and a year.
I was revealed in the land of the Trinity;
And I was moved through the entire universe;
And I shall remain till doomsday, upon the face of the earth.
And no one knows what my flesh is- whether meat or fish.
And I was nearly nine months in the womb of the witch Ceridwen;
I was formerly Gwion Bach, but now I am Taliesin."
In Lady Charlotte Guest's version of the Mabinogion:
"CARIDWEN
Caridwen is generally considered to be the Goddess of Nature of Welsh
mythology. The principal circumstances of her fabulous history are those
detailed in the Mabinogi of Taliesin. Upon them are founded most of the
allusions to her contained in the poems of the bards, with whom the
cauldron of Caridwen, of Inspiration, or the Awen, is a subject of
frequent reference. As regards her singular family we have but little
information and few details. Several notices, however, occur in Welsh
writings of her fair daughter Creirwy. Of these it may be sufficient to
instance the Triad which celebrates her with Arianrod and Gwenn, verch
Cywryd ab Crydon, as one of the three beauteous ladies of the island.[a]
One of the two Triads extant on the subject of Morvran has been already
cited. It alludes to the extreme ugliness assigned him in the text, to
which, nevertheless, he was indebted for the preservation of his life in
the battle of Camlan; the other ranks him with Gilbert mab Cadgyffro and
Gwgan Gleddyvrudd, as one of the three stayers of slaughter. [b] No
further particulars of him are preserved."
What Taliesin refers to as "poetic inspiration" "Awen" is exactly the
same thing that true modern poets experience when they meet their Muse.
As I quoted in another message of this thread from _The Poet's Calling_
by Robin Skelton:
"This 'foretaste of Paradise' can be experienced either once or several
times and can take many forms. Robert Sward experienced it at the age of
eighteen while serving in the U.S. Navy. While walking the deck alone he
was suddenly overcome by a sense of illimitable radiant power and total
understanding of all the forces in the Universe. He was even convinced
momentarily that he could fly. I remember a number of such experiences;
they usually took place in solitude in a wood or, once, on a lonely
beach. In my case these experiences were of total communion with the
forces of earth and of nature; it seemed as if I had taken on a
knowledge that made me one with the universe."
This is exactly the same thing that Taliesin describes in his poem. It
is Awen among Bards and Imbas among the Draoithe and Filidh.
Searles
Searles O'Dubhain
Also, a good essay on Awen (by Philip Shallcrass) is to be found here:
http://www.druidorder.demon.co.uk/awen.htm
Searles
geraint
news:aomm6q$u89$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
> I would like to know the meaning of the word "Ogyrwen" as
> used in the poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach), a 6th century
> Welsh poet and mystic who I believe I am similar to.
<toriad>
> "Seven score muses
> There are in the inspiration of song;
> Eight score in every score
> In the great abyss of tranquility
> In the great abyss of wrath..."
I hope your apparent similarity to Taliesin is greater than the similarity
of that (ahem) 'translation' to the original.
hwyl!
geraint.
Barnaby
"Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
> "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
> ) called him Kent) and he moved to Carlisle when she told him she was
pregnant
> ( with our cousin Idwal - so there's at least one Anglo-Saxon in the
north of
> ) England, that's if Carlisle isn't in Scotland. I bet there's a least
two,
> ( though by now.
>
> Is Kent the only English county still with
> its original Welsh name in English, then?
I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in Welsh,
then?
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
> I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
Welsh,
> then?
It comes from a Brythonic word meaning 'border' or 'edge' - *canto- the
enlglish form Kent would be how it would have been spelt in old Welsh where
/e/ represented the sound /ei/ which becomes modern Welsh /ai/ thus:
Old Welsh Kent /Keint/
Middle Welsh Ceint /Keint/
Modern Welsh Caint
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Barnaby
> "Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message
> news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
>
> > I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
> Welsh,
> > then?
>
> It comes from a Brythonic word meaning 'border' or 'edge' - *canto- the
> enlglish form Kent would be how it would have been spelt in old Welsh
where
> /e/ represented the sound /ei/ which becomes modern Welsh /ai/ thus:
>
> Old Welsh Kent /Keint/
>
> Middle Welsh Ceint /Keint/
>
> Modern Welsh Caint
Cheers.
Certic
>
> "Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
> > "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
>
> > Is Kent the only English county still with
> > its original Welsh name in English, then?
>
> No - Yorkshire comes from a Welsh name, Efrog + shire.
> Devon - Dyfnaint
> Cornwal - Cernyw
Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
"Do not stand in our way: we will walk around you"
- the 'Perky Goth Manifesto'
--
Certic
> "Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message
> news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
>
> > I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
> Welsh,
> > then?
>
> It comes from a Brythonic word meaning 'border' or 'edge' - *canto- the
> enlglish form Kent would be how it would have been spelt in old Welsh
where
> /e/ represented the sound /ei/ which becomes modern Welsh /ai/ thus:
>
> Old Welsh Kent /Keint/
>
> Middle Welsh Ceint /Keint/
>
> Modern Welsh Caint
>
Caint < Cantiaci probably meaning "People living at the edge" in its
original form.
1X2 Willows
I would have guessed male without the 'e' at the end, for some reason.
"Fifleche" <fifl...@videotron.ca> wrote
> I am only aware of one IOM find, and that's it. I know that there must
> be several others, but I do not know of any presently. I would, however,
> appreciate learning of other similar finds...
Nothing that I know of and honestly - drawing highly speculative parallels
between celtic entities and roman gods is beyond my interest alltogether.
> I did remark the emphasis on the "insular" side of Celtic culture.
You've come to the right place. ｦ-)
> I never encountered cervisia...
Oh you poor soul! *ggg*
http://www.ipa.net/~magreyn/recint1.htm
> ALL of Gaul only existed as an administrative unit in the Roman Empire
[....]
Quite right.
Cheers
Dan
1X2 Willows
>
> "1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote
>
> > Cisalpine/Southern Gaul was not in existence anymore, at that time.
>
the
> Romans used the term themselves when referring to that province.
"- as a territory under rule of celtic tribes", I should have added.
That's correct and thanks, Fifleche.
Dan
Fifleche
> "Well met, m'Lord" then - and sorry! :)
> I would have guessed male without the 'e' at the end, for some reason.
Oh, it's a nickname, and ends with the french for "arrow" --> fleche. It's
not like it's my real name or anything. Anyhow, no problem, I understand
quite perfectly that "Fifleche" doesn't make any sense in itself, so
confusions did arise, and will again!
> "Fifleche" <fifl...@videotron.ca> wrote
>
> > I am only aware of one IOM find, and that's it. I know that there
must
> > be several others, but I do not know of any presently. I would, however,
> > appreciate learning of other similar finds...
>
> Nothing that I know of and honestly - drawing highly speculative parallels
> between celtic entities and roman gods is beyond my interest alltogether.
I am interested only in the part that shows survivance of Celtic
religion "hidden" by false Roman pantheist workship. A bit like seeing how
Celtic holy days still survive today, "justified" by christian feast
surimposed on the latter, among the population at large.
> > I never encountered cervisia...
>
> Oh you poor soul! *ggg*
> http://www.ipa.net/~magreyn/recint1.htm
Oh! I tought it was perhaps an "insular" version of "cervoise", the
Gaulish name. It never occured to me that you were referrencing to a latin
term! Anyhow, I went and checked, and the only apparent reference is:
cervisiarius, cervisior: a brewer; a tenant who pays rent in beer.
But cervisia is not mentionned... Anyhow, if we look at the structure of
the term, it is clearly apparent that it's an imported word. My sources tell
me:
Cervoise: (gaul: cervesia) Beer made from oat and other cereals, and
consumed during the middle ages and antiquity.
Did you meant cervEsia instead of cervIsia? That would explain the whole
thing...
> Cheers
> Dan
Well met,
Fifleche.
1X2 Willows
>
> Oh, it's a nickname,
Glad we got *that figured out...
- and happy to have you, since French is the stepchild of the language
family who lives in my head. I wish I could read a whole lot more of those
Continental sources with ease - the ones of which you seem to be so
tired by now ;)
> I am interested only in the part that shows survivance of Celtic
> religion "hidden" by false Roman pantheist workship. A bit like seeing how
> Celtic holy days still survive today, "justified" by christian feast
> surimposed on the latter, among the population at large.
Hey, a legitimate motif for inquiry.
Just glad somebody else but me has taken on the job.
I'll be happy to leech from your conclusions, though.
> Oh! I tought it was perhaps an "insular" version of "cervoise", the
> Gaulish name.
Nope. Many other insular scholars here. Not me.
> It never occured to me that you were referrencing to a latin term!
Well sorry... we the latinized romanized imperialized culturally stomped on,
enslaved and rapialized do that sometimes ¦-)
> Anyhow, I went and checked, [....]
It's in between the cherries in yet another alternative spelling
'cerevisia':
- ceresum: a cherry.
- cerevisia, cervisia: beer.
- cerisum: a cherry.
Many terms - ONE beer...
Skøl!
Dan
1X2 Willows
>
> Of Northern and Southern Gaul, I know nothing of. I can however say
> that, at the start of Julius Caesar's invasion, it was divided thus:
> Cisalpine Gaul (or, the Gaul "this side" of the Alps, from Rome's
> point-of-view), and Transalpine Gaul ("the other side" of the Alps).
> Transalpine Gaul was subdivised into Narbonese Gaul (already a conquered
> territory when the invasions began), Aquitaine Gaul, Celtic Gaul, and
> Belgic Gaul.
>
> From what I understand, Cisalpine Gaul consisted of most of Northern
> Italy and a little bit of Southern Swiss, Narbonese Gaul covered southern
> France up to, and including Tolosa (Toulouse) westwards, while stopping at
> the foot of the Pyrennes at the south, Aquitaine Gaul was from Tolosa to
> the Ocean, and went a bit further north, too, Belgic Gaul covered Belgium,
> the Netherlands, Luxemburg, a bit of Germany, and the northernmost
> part of France, While Celtic Gaul encompassed the rest of France,
> Switzerland almost totally, a bit of Austria and a bit of Germany.
Oh - Did I mention that I am as thrilled as I am reliefed to have
'Gaulish company' and support in this place, at long last?
Well, I just did.
Dan
1X2 Willows
> cervisiarius, cervisior: a brewer; a tenant who pays rent in beer.
A tenant who pays rent in *beer*!?!
No wonder everybody speaks of the "Good Ol' Times"!
Then again - on second thought - I think I've had a couple o' roommates like
that in my life, though the problem was that they first paid the rent to the
common fridge and then helped themselves before I was able to cash in.
Dan
David Dalton
I would love to read other translations, preferably raw translations
rather that rewritings, of the original of the above lines.
But if the original still has the "seven score" and "eight score"
then my theory of similarity still holds.
Partly based on the "eight score" and partly based on my analysis
of my own cycles, in March 1994 I determined that there was
a 5.5 lunar month (eight score days) separation between each of
my last two waxing gibbous moon trial episodes and a following
(one for each) waning crescent moon inspiration/high. (Actually
I think I found the pattern in my own cycles first and only
later noticed the "eight score" in John Matthews' Taliesin book.)
Based on that and on a March 1994 waxing gibbous moon trial period
I predicted a waning crescent high for late Aug/early Sept. 1994
and that prediction came true. Also based on a shaky day
5.5 lunar months before Oct. 29 I predict a chance of a high
beginning around Oct. 29.
Also based on the fact that an M-class solar flare came a few
days before each of my five waning crescent highs (except
perhaps the Jan. 1994 one which I have to check sometime)
and the sunspot number was over 75 for all five highs
and the fact that my low years began a few months before
the low of the solar sunspot cycle in 1996 (plus in 1986
I had a mild depression) I came to believe that my next
high would be an 11 year solar cycle after my first high.
Actually I hoped it would be earlier but that did not
occur. But the "seven score" in The Hostile
Confederacy is, in lunar months, one 11 year solar sunspot
cycle (there are 136 lunar months in 11 years) and from
that and I predict my next inspired waning crescent poetic
playful in-tune high will be some time in the next few
months, perhaps as early as Oct. 29--Nov.4, 2002.
If that occurs that will be more evidence that I am
similar to Taliesin (plus I will try to do some poetry
during and after the high).
So that is why the "seven score" and "eight score"
led me to believe that I am similar to Taliesin.
And I hope to be able to show that Taliesin and
other pagan figures were similar to major non-pagan
past religious figures, with my biographical data
as glue. This could help raise the profile of
many different pagan traditions, including celtic
and North American aboriginal. As for me, I don't
want to be known just for the similarities but
hope to prove myself through my writings when my
creativity returns after seven years of low years.
David
David Dalton
> Partly based on the "eight score" and partly based on my analysis
> of my own cycles, in March 1994 I determined that there was
> a 5.5 lunar month (eight score days) separation between each of
> my last two waxing gibbous moon trial episodes and a following
> (one for each) waning crescent moon inspiration/high. (Actually
> I think I found the pattern in my own cycles first and only
> later noticed the "eight score" in John Matthews' Taliesin book.)
> Based on that and on a March 1994 waxing gibbous moon trial period
> I predicted a waning crescent high for late Aug/early Sept. 1994
> and that prediction came true. Also based on a shaky day
> 5.5 lunar months before Oct. 29 I predict a chance of a high
> beginning around Oct. 29.
In addition to the "eight score" and "seven score" in Taliesin's
poems there are the lines, from John Matthews' Taliesin book p. 321:
"its inspiring brew
ages over five cauldrons, (brewing)."
I take that to mean the 5.5 lunar months from waxing gibbous moon
trial (the prison of Arianrhod) onset to waning crescent moon
high (the inspiration of Ceridwen or Ogyrwen) onset. Or from
the trial release at full moon to high onset at last quarter
is 5.25 lunar months. But the 5.5 lunar months corresponds
to the eight score days (5.5 lunar months is 162 days).
It is not just the "seven score" and "eight score" and
"five cauldrons" that caught me eye but the fact that they
are mentioned in conjunction with inspiration. And in
my next high I plan to do some poetry plus I expect
that my creativity after the high will be back to
where it was in 1994/1995 and I will thus try to
do some poetry after the high influenced by the experience
of the high (when I feel really in tune, and as long
as I'm on lithium and get at least 4 hours sleep a night
during the high and abstain from caffeine during the
high and alcohol within 3--4 days of new moon and
make sure to wind down by new moon, the crack of the
cauldron, with extra meds if needed, it will be manageable).
What creative writings have I done in the past? Well,
in 1994 and 1995 I posted a lot of pun-laden rambles
to a mailing list on Sarah McLachlan (who I once had
a crush on and who gave me signs of interest in 1995
but is now happily married with a new baby, and I have
given up on the crush but hope for friendship from
her and am still a big fan and am inspired by her).
On there I also did a few poetry snippets, including:
1.
there is a human named Sarah
she belts out the truly rare ah
the trussed listener quivers
whenever she delivers
her passionate oral lay, raw
2.
this child of McLachlan
fortified by strong djinn
braves web of sea and leaf
breaks bonds of pain and grief
sings words of earth cracklin'
3. (I don't think I knew of Herne before this)
May Day, SOS
-----------------
fire, warm my hagrrrl [this i juggled on the computer, unfinished?]
from the sin gal lie
with hern's stole, passion
mouth ice, river breaks
...
4. (inspired by a pencil)
HB
Homer's binder
Helen's bounty
Heaven's blessings
Horny Bridgett
etc.
Happy birthday
5. This is from my June 1993 high, when I went overboard with
juggling letters on the computer. And at the time I
didn't know that OIU and IOW are names of the divine.
This is partly influenced by the song Wild Rover and
by Poe's The Raven (Nevermore). It wasn't influenced
by Joyce's Finnegan's Wake since I hadn't looked at that
up to then.
...FrEE_Lancers' G_yNhAME G_naw f/l/NAmiss, NuNe our Never 'n MOreo oo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OUIow, the uni-verse, L.whee DRUInk-rD
aura FU-syZY, G_ee, circle-T P/ToeMa-knEE
dense eNFanTime 'round T'Wean dark, from light
Dis lex 'ick T-waIsted AC-Scent PR-One to M/LIce
S/B hare, leaf is / all re but-t
fruit loops chopped, sum bits dropped, sLaphter and PneUNs
a par fait danSH Z\'est nu f(1) T fore too
Chi/me dark to light C/Home light to dark _ sea, ole Port 'eh
have & helf, black et tan,
wHEY t' fur the rigged barE, tinders of nut and dew.
onDe leFt le femME noIre BB uRe gidde
all weigh fael sLlabelLs
6. (from my July 1994 high, which was not as connected as
some of the others since it started the day before new
moon and I had a fair bit of alcohol and pulled an
all-nighter on newsgroups)
e.g., (to sci.astro, on jupiter impact):
Sounds like a low cal cometh to me,
And pubs in BC should turn on CBC.
To hear the hissed images, whee
Big red spots seen by mote notary
7.
maybe a serious raddish got translated
by a redish series to a red Serius
which later was found not to be read
but did have a serius radius
oh, no?
8.
On Zenna Henderson's books on The People (which someone else
described, in which the word platt is a magical working of
weather, for example; I haven't read them yet):
to a young platter
-------------------
when you platt
you are platted
and unless careful
can get splatted
9. (from September 1994 high)
Math's dictionary [Math is in Welsh tradition the little bear in the sky
---------------- or a great druid, mentor of Gwydion]
lemniscate time
liscuute space [replace with lituus space?]
lisajous with us [actually spelled lissajous]
10. (from Sept94)
P oh -- a short tree!
-------------------------
a chord struck in the mind
jewels placed upon paper
ring echos in you, reader
laugh cry a geas from ages
emergent evolution?
I think I have a few more in my e-mail and newsgroups archives
but I'm not going to bother looking for them now since it's
late. But I did a huge amount of wordplay on the FTE list
in 1994 and 1995 and I really should edit that material
some day to extract the gems. And during my next high I
won't simply try to enjoy it as I did in January 1994 and
I won't try to answer scientific and medical questions outside
my field as I did in Aug/Sept 1994 (but I might do a few
poetic clues like the Math's Dictionary poem but not post
them until after the high is over) and I won't get overloaded
with wordplay as I did in June 1993 and I won't get overloaded
period as I did in September 1991. But I will try to do
some playful poems and maybe some spiritual writings during
the next high, and some lyrics to instrumental music, and
will probably do more writings after the high based on the
experience of the high. However what I consider my best
high was the Jan. 1994 one when I just enjoyed it (though
I did write a "shy pin" draft poem on the bathroom chalkboard
of The Ship Inn). So I will try to make sure there is a
balance between just enjoying it/experiencing it, which I
think could influence later creativity, and actually
doing some writing during it.
But my sister Mary Dalton is a much better poet than I am,
although I think my best work is still ahead of me and
that best work will be necessary before anyone takes my
claims of being similar to Taliesin and others seriously.
David
Fifleche
> Oh - Did I mention that I am as thrilled as I am reliefed to have
> 'Gaulish company' and support in this place, at long last?
>
> Well, I just did.
> Dan
Well, glad this list isn't so "insular", after a fashion! Not to
mention, either, that Celtic culture did limit itself to the Isles and Gaul,
for that matter. I checked Greek historians mentionning the sack of Delphy
by Celtic tribes, and that would be very far from Gaul, so, to have a full
view of antique Celtic culture, one must look to all horizons accessible.
Anyhow, glad I could bring you a bit of relief, albeit an indirect one.
Fifleche.
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
> Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
> Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
> technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
I've never seen the form Efroeg before could you give me some sources for
it?
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geraint
news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
<toriad>
> I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
Welsh,
> then?
They use its modern form (spelt "cont") in the Caernarfon area these days as
a form of greeting/affection.
hwyl!
geraint.
geraint
> David Dalton wrote:
<toriad>
> I think my best work is still ahead of me and
> that best work will be necessary before anyone takes my
> claims of being similar to Taliesin and others seriously.
I totally agree. And so would Taliesin too.
:-)
hwyl!
geraint.
Certic
>
> "Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
> > Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
> > Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
> > technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
>
> I've never seen the form Efroeg before could you give me some sources for
> it?
It's a mistake.
David Monks
Cerevisior - I drink beer
Cerevisiaris - thou drinkest beer
Cerevisiatur - he/she/it (the dog) drinks beer
:-)
David
"1X2 Willows" <wil...@euro-celts.com> wrote in message
news:Kq0t9.7285$071.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
David Dalton
> According to Rachel Bromwich in her Trioedd Ynys Prydein, the traditions
> from the *ninth* century onwards which are incorporated in (among
> others) Haynes Taliesin regarding how the boy Gwion Bach received the
> magic drops of poetic inspiration. Taliesin's reputation for magical
> prowess increased in the tales of the tenth and eleventh centuries in
> Wales.
I think the magic drops of poetic inspiration are the last few
drops from the cauldron before the crack of the cauldron (new
moon) and hence are the waning crescent inspiration. Is there
any historical evidence that would support my thinking that
the cauldron is the moon and the crack of the cauldron is
new moon (dark of moon)?
> In Nora Chadwick's essay on Imbas Forosnai we find:
>
> "It will be seen that the phenomenon of the Awenithion (or, more
> properly, Awenyddion) resembles that of the imbas forosnai as described
> for us in the Glossary, and as illustrated by the stories of Finn. The
> name is derived from the word awen or poetic (mantic) inspiration, and
> is generally conferred on a person in a mantic sleep. These people
> become rapt in an ecstasy (cf. 'imbas forosnai') in which they deliver
> themselves of speech which is not easily intelligible because the
> utterances are veiled (cf. the Irish rhetorics), and apparently
> contradictory and highly figurative. Often such people have to be shaken
> violently before they can recover their normal condition. We do not know
> the exact source of Giraldus' account. It may have been based on
> contemporary custom, as he himself avers ; or it may, as I suspect, be
> derived from literary (oral) tradition, like the entry in the Glossary.
> But whatever the source, there can be little doubt that in the time of
> Giraldus a practice similar to that of imbas forosnai was known in
> Wales, either as a living practice or a literary motif.
In my five waning crescent highs, especially the June 1993 one,
my speech and writing became somewhat faster and full of wordplay
including puns (but then again in 1994 and 1995 even outside
the highs my writing was full of wordplay). But the highs
did not start during sleep but were marked by a reduced
need for sleep, though I have learned that I must get at
least 4 hours sleep a night during the high if it is to
remain manageable. I think that enclosing someone in a
leather coracle may have been an early sensory deprivation
treatment for mania. Was Taliesin enclosed in such a
leather coracle and left to bob on the waves and to
emerge with new poetry?
> Talhaern, a poet of the Britons who is mentioned in the Historia
> Brittonum, as living in the time of Maelgwn, King of Gwynedd (548), is
> said to have been called Tataguen, i.e., 'father of awen or poetic
> (mantic) inspiration,' and to have been a contemporary of the poet
> Taliesin, who almost certainly lived in the middle of the sixth century.
> The similarity of the poetry traditionally ascribed to Taliesin, to that
> ascribed - also by tradition - to the poet Nede and to the fili Amargin
> has already been commented on. There can, indeed, be little doubt that
> early traditions in this country imply the existence at an early date of
> a phenomenon similar to imbas forosnai. We have seen that Irish
> tradition suggests that the art was in a more advanced condition in this
> country, since it was from this country that, according to the same
> tradition, the earliest exponents known to Irish legend derived their
> art. "
I also think I am similar to Amergin as well as to Taliesin but
I don't have as much evidence for Amergin yet. But his
transformation from ugly youth to enlightened one might
be like my going into a high in 1991 (and the ugly youth phase might
be like my mild depression of 1986). Also the bread dough under
the fingernails of Amergin (especially his thumb, like Finn's)
I think represents the waning crescent high (like the waning
butter of the butter thief Krishna). Also, from The Song
of Amergin, the "stag of seven tines" I relate to the fact that I am a 7th
child, the "teardrop of the sun" I relate to my fall into the water after
the sundance and "fair among the flowers" (or "thorn beneath the rose")
I relate to my naked thorn hill climb and blue rose vision.
> In Patrick Ford's _The Mabinogi_ on pages 172 and 173:
> I was three times in the prison of Arianrhod;
Again I think that the prison of Arianrhod are waxing gibbous
moon trial periods filled with fear and delusion, as if the
world has gone sour around you. From 1993 to 1994 such
incidents were followed 5.5 lunar months later by a
waning crescent high (the inspiration of Ceridwen). I
think I now am avoiding the worst of the prison of
Arianrhod by abstaining from alcohol during waxing moon
and abstaining from marijuana all the time.
> I got *poetic inspiration* from the Cauldron of Ceridwen;
I think that this is the waning crescent high mentioned
above. During my next such high I will make an effort
to do some poetry and lyrics.
> And I was nearly nine months in the womb of the witch Ceridwen;
That might mean nine months of depression but I'm not sure.
If it did that would be like my 1986 mild depression.
> I was formerly Gwion Bach, but now I am Taliesin."
>
> In Lady Charlotte Guest's version of the Mabinogion:
>
> "CARIDWEN
>
> Caridwen is generally considered to be the Goddess of Nature of Welsh
> mythology. The principal circumstances of her fabulous history are those
> detailed in the Mabinogi of Taliesin. Upon them are founded most of the
> allusions to her contained in the poems of the bards, with whom the
> cauldron of Caridwen, of Inspiration, or the Awen, is a subject of
> frequent reference. As regards her singular family we have but little
> information and few details. Several notices, however, occur in Welsh
> writings of her fair daughter Creirwy. Of these it may be sufficient to
> instance the Triad which celebrates her with Arianrod and Gwenn, verch
> Cywryd ab Crydon, as one of the three beauteous ladies of the island.[a]
Is there any evidence linking these three to phases of the moon? I
associate Arianrhod with waxing gibbous moon to full moon
and Ceridwen with waning crescent to new (dark) moon but
I would like to know if there is a historical correspondence
for these two and Gwenn. And are you there wasn't a
fourth? I thought in the story of Dylan (or was it the
story of Arianrhod) that Arianrhod had three sisters
and I thought none of them was named Ceridwen. I guess
I'll have to make a trip to the library soon.
> What Taliesin refers to as "poetic inspiration" "Awen" is exactly the
> same thing that true modern poets experience when they meet their Muse.
Well, I think that many modern poets are bipolar and may have
a manic call similar in some ways to mine but many, including
my sister Mary Dalton, are not bipolar and have a longer
slower development of their muse.
> As I quoted in another message of this thread from _The Poet's Calling_
> by Robin Skelton:
>
> "This 'foretaste of Paradise' can be experienced either once or several
> times and can take many forms. Robert Sward experienced it at the age of
> eighteen while serving in the U.S. Navy. While walking the deck alone he
> was suddenly overcome by a sense of illimitable radiant power and total
> understanding of all the forces in the Universe. He was even convinced
> momentarily that he could fly. I remember a number of such experiences;
> they usually took place in solitude in a wood or, once, on a lonely
> beach. In my case these experiences were of total communion with the
> forces of earth and of nature; it seemed as if I had taken on a
> knowledge that made me one with the universe."
Psychiatrists would probably label Robert Sward's experience as
a manic episode and him as bipolar in the same way I have been
labelled bipolar.
But indeed, during my highs I have felt incredibly in tune
and gifted with a shower of ideas. In my first high of
Sept. 1991 it began with a shower of ideas related to the
grad student centre orientation and I worked on that for
a few days after which it developed into the naked sundance/sun
stare/thorn hill climb/blue rose vision ecstatic experience.
So in that one I was somewhat overloaded by the inspiration.
In my second high of June 1993 I was giddy on the dance of
words and letters and did a Wild Rover Poe-M which I posted
to many newsgroups. So in that one I was somewhat out of
control as well.
In my January 1994 one I just tried to
enjoy the experience, the feeling of harmony with nature,
and it was my best high yet. I did only one poem then,
a draft "Shy Pin" one on The Ship Inn bathroom chalkboard
but I forget the details.
In my July 1994 high I did a
few poetic fragments but that one started the day before
new moon and I had a fair bit of alcohol so I wasn't as
connected, but I did make a number of posts to newsgroups
that night (July 8/9).
In my Aug/Sept 1994 high I
resolved to try and answer important questions on
newsgroups, including providing a clue to a cure for AIDS.
But I learned after the high was over that my answers in
areas outside my areas of expertise were not that good.
So after that I have resolved to partly enjoy the highs
and partly write some poetry and spiritual writings (of
course poetry can be spiritual too). I also must avoid
caffeine during the highs, get at least 4 hours sleep a
night, avoid alcohol within three days of new moon during
the high, and make sure to wind down by new moon (the crack
of the cauldron) to avoid post-new-moon fear/paranoia.
I also will probably post some stuff to newsgroups during
the high but will probably keep some writing private
until after the high is over.
But anyway my Sept. 1991 high overloaded me (no lithium),
I got carried away with the dance of ideas and words
in June 1993 (but not too badly, due to lithium), but my
Jan. 1994, July 1994, and Aug/Sept 1994 highs were all
more manageable. This I attribute partly to the lithium
and partly to the declining of the solar sunspot cycle.
Thus I would expect that my next high, sometime in the
next few months, might overload me again. However I
am on 1800 mg/day lithium carbonate and 5 mg/day olanzapine
and thus I think my next high will be manageable, if the
olanzapine doens't block it entirely. I plan to come
off the olanzapine after my next high since I will then
believe that the seven years (the seven years that Cu
Chulainn spent as hound dog to the smith, which I think
is based on Amergin's biographical details) of low years
will then be over and I won't need the olanzapine any
more (until maybe 2007) but will be able to get by with
lithium and by abstaining from alcohol during waxing moon
(but I will keep a supply of haloperidol on hand for
nipping waxing moon problems in the bud just in case,
for example when I need to wind down from a high by new moon,
or if I have an early waxing moon problem like in Jan. and Apr.
1995 or if I have a waxing gibbous moon problem despite
the personal ban on alcohol during waxing moon or if a high
threatens to overload me; plus I may also keep a supply
of sleeping pills on hand in case I have trouble getting
the minimum 4 hours/night during a high).
> This is exactly the same thing that Taliesin describes in his poem. It
> is Awen among Bards and Imbas among the Draoithe and Filidh.
You might be interested in Kay Jamison's book Touched With Fire
which discussed manic depression and the artistic temperament
with reference to some major past poets and others. But I
haven't come across a living or recent historical individual
yet who has cycles similar to mine (with the seven score
muses solar cycle variation that I hope to prove soon, and
the eight score days between waxing gibbous moon trial onset
and waning crescent high onset). However the song
Bright Blue Rose by Jimmy MacCarthy seems to indicate that
the blue rose vision has endured and so that maybe a living
or recent historical individual has had a blue rose vision
like mine. I e-mailed Jimmy (his web page is
http://www.jimmymaccarthy.com/ ) on Friday night but haven't
heard back from him yet. Probably he has labelled me as
a nut and won't reply. But if I'm lucky he just hasn't
checked his e-mail yet and/or wants to wade through my web
page a bit before replying.
David
1X2 Willows
> I thought rather,
>
> Cerevisior - I drink beer
>
> Cerevisiaris - thou drinkest beer
>
> Cerevisiatur - he/she/it (the dog) drinks beer
>
>
> :-)
LOL! How come you know my dog?!
(Not sure where, but they've apparently found examples
which are clearly not conjugations...)
Dan
David Dalton
I'm glad you think that my best work is still ahead of me! :-)
David
David Dalton
> geraint wrote:
>
>> sgwennodd "David Dalton" <dal...@nfld.com> yn neges
>> news:aomm6q$u89$1...@coranto.ucs.mun.ca...
>>> I would like to know the meaning of the word "Ogyrwen" as
>>> used in the poems of Taliesin (Gwion Bach), a 6th century
>>> Welsh poet and mystic who I believe I am similar to.
>> <toriad>
>>> "Seven score muses
>>> There are in the inspiration of song;
>>> Eight score in every score
>>> In the great abyss of tranquility
>>> In the great abyss of wrath..."
I just want to note that the above lines came from the
translation of Taliesin's The Hostile Confederacy from
the middle of John Matthews' Taliesin book, not from
the rewriting in the appendix which I think no longer
has the seven score and eight score.
>> I hope your apparent similarity to Taliesin is greater than the
>> similarity of that (ahem) 'translation' to the original.
>
> I would love to read other translations, preferably raw translations
> rather that rewritings, of the original of the above lines.
>
> But if the original still has the "seven score" and "eight score"
> then my theory of similarity still holds.
But I also think the great abyss of tranquility is depression
and the great abyss of wrath is paranoia. I experienced
mild depression in 1986 and paranoia a sunspot cycle (11 years)
later in 1996 and 1997, and will watch for a return of either
in 2007. The sunspot cycle in amplitude is 11 years but the
full cycle of both normal and reversed magnetic polarities is
22 years, so I will be especially careful of returning depression
in 2007. But hopefully lithium will ward that off and if not
I would take an antidepressant on top of the lithium and if I
have paranoia again I will take olanzapine again in 2007.
And again I expect another inspired high within the next
few months, perhaps beginning as early as Oct. 29 or
even the night of Oct. 28.
David
David Dalton
my newsreader to alt.religion.druid so if you want to follow
up to it and have it go to soc.culture.welsh as well you
will have to add soc.culture.welsh to the newsgroups line.
I will try to remember to override this newsreader (Knode)
behaviour in future.
David
David Dalton
my newsreader to alt.religion.druid so if you want to follow
up to it and have it go to soc.culture.welsh as well you
will have to add soc.culture.welsh to the newsgroups line.
I will tryto remember to override this newsreader (Knode)
behaviour in future.
David
David Dalton
> On there I also did a few poetry snippets, including:
Only numbers 1 through 4 were posted originally to the
fumbling-towards-ecstasy mailing list, the rest were posted
originally to newsgroups. Oh but number 8 might have
originally been posted in an e-mail to someone.
David
David Dalton
Heather Jones
<snip preceding discussion which wasn't with me>
> I have not, let me restate myself, doubted your ability, but still, I
> ask about a word found engraved on a statue of Jupiter/Lugos in France,
> Armorique to be more precise, about what could've been it's meaning, and not
> what modern-day Welsh speakers have for meaning about said word, as you did
> answer me. That is, of course, unless you can tell me that modern-day Welsh
> language uses the same meaning for IOM as did the Gauls about two thousand
> years ago. I am no linguist, but I doubt the word wouldn't have changed in
> meaning, at least a bit.
Forgive me for coming in a little late on the conversation. "IOM"
is fairly common in Roman-era inscriptions dedicated to Jupiter,
but it isn't a word -- it comes from the excessive Roman fondness
for abbreviating high-frequency phrases to their initials. In
this case, it expands to "I[upiter] O[ptimus] M[aximus]" i.e.
"Jupiter, best and greatest". Roman-era inscriptions are almost
impossible to make sense of until you've become familiar with
most of the common abbreviations and initialisms. There's
probably some good single-source reference work on the topic, but
I haven't found it yet.
Heather Jones
--
*****
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*****
Fifleche
had already encountered Jupiter referred to as Optimus Primus (this does
bring a Transformers joke to mind...), but I did not make the leap from
Optimus Primus to IOM.
:)
Fifleche.
"Heather Jones" <hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:3DB6132F...@socrates.berkeley.edu...
Dave
:
: Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: news:aopvkr$dc7$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
: >
: > "Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
: > news:aopmcq$lqn$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
: > :
: > : Dave <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > : news:aonjbi$1fs$8...@knossos.btinternet.com...
: > : > And where was Rheged/Elfed. In Wales? I think not. Dave
: > : -------
: > : Rheged corresponds to modern Cumbria and Galloway. I've never heard of
: > : "Elfed" but would take it to be a later "Cambricisation" of Elmet, a
: > Celtic
: > : kingdom centred on Leeds in what is now West Yorkshire, which was
: absorbed
: > : by Northumbria in the mid 7th century.
: >
: > Northumbria? What on earth was that? The Ven.Bede divided Britain into
: > Northumberland, which was above the River Humber, and Southumberland.
: Elmet,
: > which still exists, was above the Humber and so was in Northumberland
: unlike
: > Cardif which being south of the Humber was/is in Southumberland or
: > "Southumbia".
: --------
: Northumbria is a Latinisation of OE Noržanhymbre. Northumberland is an
: Anglicisation of the Scandinavian name Noršymbraland.
And what about Suthumberland? And also what is a Welshman doing using the
British alphabet? I suppose that you hale from the Anglo-Saxon kindgom of
Southumbria? Or are you anasty silurwg, which is Welsh for a slug. You see I
know some Welsh after all.
Dave
: --
:
:
Dave
: >
: > That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
:
: Not a single one - even those whose parents might have moved up there?
:
This is an interesting point. When you corner an Anglo-Saxonist, and I am
not claiming that Muiris is an Anglo-Saxonist, they always claim in order to
prove that everyone in Engfland is a genetically pure member of the
Anglo-Saxon master race that upon the Industrial Revolution Anglo-Saxons
from Southern England moved North. There is in fact no evidence of this, in
addition there were other industrial centres such as Birmingham, the
Potteries, Sheffield (Please note that Sheffield is NOT in Northern England,
I repeat is NOT in Northern England), Worksop, Bristol, and London to name a
few. Not many people from Southern England, or South Wales for that matter,
settle permanently in Northern England because they do not get on with the
local people. There are of course notable exceptions but such Southerners
have Northern personalities. If you are from Southern England or South Wales
visit by all means but think twice before settling in Northern England. If
you are from North Wales, Ireland, Scotland, or the Isle of Man then come by
all means, you will most probably fit in with the locals.
Dave
: ---
: Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
: Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 16/10/02
:
:
Dave
"gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote in message
news:hZEs9.5406$eg6.3...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
:
: "Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
: news:WJ0s9.3125$t12.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
: >
: > "Dave" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
: > news:aoq0af$mga$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
: > >
: > > That is correct, none of the people of North Britain are Anglo-Saxons.
: >
: > Not a single one - even those whose parents might have moved up there?
:
: My Aunty Gladys knew a firemen from Kent (or his name was Kent, or she
: called him Kent) and he moved to Carlisle when she told him she was
pregnant
: with our cousin Idwal - so there's at least one Anglo-Saxon in the north
of
: England, that's if Carlisle isn't in Scotland. I bet there's a least two,
: though by now.
:
Two too many.
Dave
"Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
: "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
: ( My Aunty Gladys knew a firemen from Kent (or his name was Kent, or she
: ) called him Kent) and he moved to Carlisle when she told him she was
pregnant
: ( with our cousin Idwal - so there's at least one Anglo-Saxon in the
north of
: ) England, that's if Carlisle isn't in Scotland. I bet there's a least
two,
: ( though by now.
:
: Is Kent the only English county still with
: its original Welsh name in English, then?
Don't forget Dover. There is also an Eccles in Kent.
Dave
:
: "Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
: news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
: > "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
:
: > its original Welsh name in English, then?
: No - Yorkshire comes from a Welsh name, Efrog + shire.
: Devon - Dyfnaint
: Cornwal - Cernyw
:
Cravenshire
Gobbinshire
Peaksetshire
Derbyshire (now called West Derby)
etc.
Dave
Kent?news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
:
: Muiris Mag Ualghairg <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
: news:cRGs9.204$EQ4.27245@newsfep2-gui...
: >
: > "Geraint Jones" <Gerain...@rhydychen.org.uk> wrote in message
: > news:aovcup$t02$1...@daedalus.wolf.ox.ac.uk...
: > > "gerald.copp" <gerald.copp@localhost> wrote:
: >
: > > Is Kent the only English county still with
: > > its original Welsh name in English, then?
: >
: > No - Yorkshire comes from a Welsh name, Efrog + shire.
: > Devon - Dyfnaint
: > Cornwal - Cernyw
: Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
: Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
: Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
: technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
Dave
:
: "Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
: news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
: > Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
: > Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
: > Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
: > technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
:
: I've never seen the form Efroeg before could you give me some sources for
: it?
Yes, of course. Caraverick, a lost settlement in the Leath Ward of
Cumberland, circa 1150. Car is *cair and averick is *efric. *Cairefric means
a farm abounding in cow parsnips. A *cair was any stone structure such as a
walled city or farmhouse made out of stone, which offered a defensive
position against cattle raiders. I find it very strange that Muiris has
suddenly and quite unexpectedly developed an interest in the Celtic
place-names of England and the old Celtic languages such as Cumbric.
: ---
:
Dave
"Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Me7t9.331$vf.17721@newsfep2-gui...
:
: news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
: > Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin Eboracum,
: > Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
: > Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
: > technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
:
: I've never seen the form Efroeg before could you give me some sources for
: it?
Yes, of course. Caraverick, a lost settlement in the Leath Ward of
Cumberland, circa 1150. Car is *cair and averick is *efric. *Cairefric means
a farm abounding in cow parsnips. A *cair was any stone structure such as a
walled city or farmhouse made out of stone, which offered a defensive
position against cattle raiders. I find it very strange that Muiris has
suddenly and quite unexpectedly developed an interest in the Celtic
place-names of England and the old Celtic languages such as Cumbric.
:
The Traveller
"JPinNY" <block...@janeyjenks.com> wrote in message
news:1104_10...@news.optonline.net...
> > I think you're flogging a dead horse, putting this on uklc.
>
>
> JP
>
He's probably a Cumbrian.
Edith.
Barnaby
>
> "Muiris Mag Ualghairg" <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:Me7t9.331$vf.17721@newsfep2-gui...
> :
> : "Certic" <P...@winwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> : news:ap1g42$oha$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
> : > Actually York is the Norse form... Celtic *Eburacon then Latin
Eboracum,
> : > Welsh Efroeg and OE Eoforwic, whence Norse *Jorvik later Jo/rk.
> : > Only Kent has a pure Celtic name, the others are hybrids (Devon is
> : > technically Devonshire, but nobody calls it that)
> :
> : I've never seen the form Efroeg before could you give me some sources
for
> : it?
> :
> Yes, of course. Caraverick, a lost settlement in the Leath Ward of
> Cumberland, circa 1150. Car is *cair and averick is *efric. *Cairefric
means
> a farm abounding in cow parsnips. A *cair was any stone structure such as
a
> walled city or farmhouse made out of stone, which offered a defensive
> position against cattle raiders.
There's a part of Edinburgh called Cramond that has similar roots. It
started out as a Roman fort, on the river Almond - Caer Amon, the fort on
the Almond (I don't know why it's spelt "caer" rather than "cair" normally -
I don't speak Welsh )
> I find it very strange that Muiris has
> suddenly and quite unexpectedly developed an interest in the Celtic
> place-names of England and the old Celtic languages such as Cumbric.
Whatever.
Certic
> So the Anglo-Saxons of Kent learn Welsh before killing all of the Welsh in
> Kent?
There were no Anglo-Saxons in Kent - only Jutes.
Dave
"Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message
news:ap8ft7$73g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
:
: "Dave" <fl...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
:
Dave
in your newsgroup from time to time. Happy reading.
"The Traveller" <no-...@spam.no> wrote in message
news:EwEt9.4608$QT5.1...@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
:
: "JPinNY" <block...@janeyjenks.com> wrote in message
:
Muiris Mag Ualghairg
"Beirn" <buibh...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:mtBr9.8147$cP3....@news.iol.ie...
> Hiya David, I read your post with interest and wondered,
>
> what do you think of the scholars and studies that seem to strongly
> suggest that Taliesin was in fact a much later poet, from at the
> earliest 11th century and most likely 14th (ie that the Book of Taliesin
> which is known to be fourteenth century merely accredited its poetry to
> an earlier age, to the sixth century)? and that he in fact can be fixed
> as the poet of only one or two of the poems he is currently accredited
> with?
>
> I have read several views from both sides of the debate and have to say
> the likelihood seems to me to be that he was in fact a later poet..but I
> would be interested to hear to the contrary...any thoughts?
>
> cheers, looking forward to hearing fomr those with much more knowledge
> of welsh lit than I have:)
>
> Beirn
I don't think that that has much credence - most of the poems ascribed to
Taliesin are of a much later date but Welsh Scholars talk of Y Taliesin
Hanesyddol (The Historic Taliesin) and 'Y Taliesin Chwedlonol' (The
Mythological Taliesin). Latter poems may have been ascribed to Taliesin
when they were by other poets but it is fair to assume that there was indeed
a historical Taliesin who was a poet and that some of his poetry has
survived.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Dave
: "Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message
: news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
:
: > I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
: Welsh,
: > then?
:
: It comes from a Brythonic word meaning 'border' or 'edge' - *canto- the
: enlglish form Kent would be how it would have been spelt in old Welsh
where
: /e/ represented the sound /ei/ which becomes modern Welsh /ai/ thus:
:
: Old Welsh Kent /Keint/
:
: Middle Welsh Ceint /Keint/
:
: Modern Welsh Caint
:
Caint also means a plain, open country, a field, a battle field, and a
millitary engagement. Also in Cumbric caint also meant a plateau as in
Pennigant in Roxburgh and Penyghent in Yorkshire. Kent is descriptive of the
kind of countryside that one finds in Kent. Muiris does not know as much as
he thinks he knows.
Dave
Dave
:
: Muiris Mag Ualghairg <mui...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
: news:fzTs9.786$ZO3.65491@newsfep2-gui...
: > "Barnaby" <barn...@hotmail.naespam.com> wrote in message
: > news:ap0iv2$q8g$1...@phys-pa.scotland.net...
: >
: > > I never heard of this before. What does Kent (my home county) mean in
: > Welsh,
: > > then?
: >
: > It comes from a Brythonic word meaning 'border' or 'edge' - *canto- the
: > enlglish form Kent would be how it would have been spelt in old Welsh
: where
: > /e/ represented the sound /ei/ which becomes modern Welsh /ai/ thus:
: >
: > Old Welsh Kent /Keint/
: >
: > Middle Welsh Ceint /Keint/
: >
: > Modern Welsh Caint
: >
: Caint < Cantiaci probably meaning "People living at the edge" in its
: original form.
Living at/on the edge, good description for Kentish folk and also for folk
of Kent as well.
: --
: