Help please: Non-Welsh-speaking teaching posts in Wales?
Malcolm Arnold
Okay, I know I could get flamed and start all sorts of vitriolic
threads with this, but I'll risk it to get some advice :-)
I would dearly love to move to North Wales to live and work (I'm a
writer/artist) but our family's sole income is presently dependent
upon my wife who is a Head of English in a Leeds comprehensive. We
haven't followed up my dream mostly on the assumption that it would
be impossible for her to get a teaching post in a Welsh school
because she is not a Welsh-speaker.
Is this an urban myth? Are there schools which would be happy to
employ an experienced teacher irrespective of this fact? Or are we
truly scuppered?
Thanks in anticipation of any help or advice.
Mal
--
mab.i...@zetnet.co.uk http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mab/
"Kids, fiction is the truth inside the lie, and the truth of this
fiction is simple enough: the magic exists." Stephen King
CommUnity: Working for UK Net freedom. http://www.community.org.uk/
MH Roberts
Mal,
Teaching in a Welsh-language school might prove a bit of a problem for your
wife, but there would be nothing stopping her from teaching at an
English-medium school. In fact, I went to a bilingual Secondary School
where there were many non-Welsh-speaking teachers.
Bon chance!
Mel.
--
George: Tally-ho pip-pip and Bernard's your uncle.
Blackadder: In English we say, "Good Morning".
Chris
On 3 Feb 1998 13:32:54 GMT, u5...@NOSPAM.keele.ac.uk (MH Roberts)
wrote:
And if you did move here to work, there are plenty of opportunities
for adults to learn Welsh.
Chris
Chris
remove nospam from email address to reply
Gwyneth Ellis
MH Roberts <u5...@NOSPAM.keele.ac.uk> wrote in article
<6b76a6$n32$2...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>...
: Mal,
:
: Teaching in a Welsh-language school might prove a bit of a problem for
your
: wife, but there would be nothing stopping her from teaching at an
: English-medium school. In fact, I went to a bilingual Secondary School
: where there were many non-Welsh-speaking teachers.
In North West Wales there aren't many Welsh medium schools. Just schools
where the majority of the children speak Welsh. There is a difference.
Indeed, in Caernarfon there were many teachers who didn't speak Welsh very
well when I went there (OK - that was a _few_ years ago). My guess is that
for a subject like English there'd be no bias. If the person indicated a
willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
Gwyneth.
:>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<
:
Dimensiwn 4 - y caffi rhyngrwyd yng Nghaernarfon
- the internet cafe in Caernarfon
http://www.dimensiwn4.co.uk
Gwasanaeth Rhyngrwyd GWYNEDD Internet Services
http://www.gwynedd.net
Nigel Evans
In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>If the person indicated a
>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
a language in order to earn a living. What would you seek to impose on
employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
Plaid Cymru ?
Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
they see it as a potential instrument of oppression. Your remarks
reinforce this view. This lady should be considered on merit if she
applies for a teaching post. She should not have to feel, in any way,
pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
it.
--
Nigel Evans
Dave Thomas
In article <4M4naGAl...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
>Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>
>>If the person indicated a
>>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>
> Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
>speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
>a language in order to earn a living. What would you seek to impose on
>employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
>Plaid Cymru ?
I don't see anything Gwyneth has said as implying compulsion Nigel. She
implied it would be a bonus and in all reasonableness, where a high
proportion of the children are Welsh speaking, it has to be a plus to be
able to communicate with them in what may be their first language.
> Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
>they see it as a potential instrument of oppression. Your remarks
>reinforce this view. This lady should be considered on merit if she
>applies for a teaching post. She should not have to feel, in any way,
>pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
>it.
Welsh, a language of oppression??? I think not Nigel. While it remains a
minority language it could only be oppressive if wielded by a non-
democratic controlling body. I suspect it will be many years before a
mojority on an elected Welsh assembly would be Welsh speaking.
Existing legislature limits any selection based on the ability to speak
Welsh.
Hawddamor
dave
--
Dave Thomas
Jason O'Rourke
Nigel Evans wrote:
>
> In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
> Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>
> >If the person indicated a
> >willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>
> Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
> speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
> a language in order to earn a living.
Hello, Nigel's back...
I think the salient words here Nigel are "willingness," "indicate,"
"*even* better." Thus the suggestion is not that everyone should have to
learn Welsh to get work, I see no evidence of coercion here. If people
were *willing* to learn Welsh it could only help the survival of the
language. What's wrong with that?
What would you seek to impose on
> employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
> Plaid Cymru ?
> Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
> they see it as a potential instrument of oppression.
The boot on the other foot for a change? Can't see it.
Your remarks
> reinforce this view.
Nah
This lady should be considered on merit if she
> applies for a teaching post. She should not have to feel, in any way,
> pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
> it.
I thought the whole tone of the sentence you picked up on was
accommodating, and simply expressed the notion that people should be
*encouraged* (not forced) to speak Welsh when thay move to Wales. Would
you move to France and make a fuss because they speak French?
Jason
> --
> Nigel Evans
--
Jason O'Rourke
School of English, Queen's University, Belfast
Visit me at: Http://www.angelfire.com/or/jasonOruairc/
'Dear Lord the day of eggs is here'
-Amanda McKittrick Ros, possibly Ireland's greatest writer.
Jason O'Rourke
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
> Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
>speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
>a language in order to earn a living. What would you seek to impose on
>employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
>Plaid Cymru ?
Oh my little turtledove, you can be a pesky nuisance when you get your knickers
in a twist. Listen, if you moved to a place, oh call it France, and you wanted
to teach there, even English, don't you think that the school might require you
to speak French?
Now, Nigel, I don't know when last you were up in North West Wales (bro fy
nheulu), but the last time *I* checked most people there spoke Welsh. Now
wouldn't not speaking Welsh just be a little hint to job seekers that looking
for work there would be facilitated by some cognizance of the local tongue,
hmmmmmm?
> Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
>they see it as a potential instrument of oppression.
This is especially true of non-Welsh speakers here in the US. We live in utter
fear of having Welsh crammed down our throats (tee-hee). Everyone knows that
the Welsh speaking aristocracy has it out for the anglophone world, and they're
backed by those pesky francophone kinooks. Damn those frigid bastards and
their mountain dwelling overlords!
Can someone please check with Dr. Who and find out if the fabric of space time
has collided with the TV world of Sliders, and if Nigel comes from an
alternative dimension where the Anglo-Saxon peoples are being actively
oppressed by anyone at all?
>She should not have to feel, in any way,
>pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
>it.
Give Nigel a pill, bitte, I think he's crooked his spiegel.
Yes, Nigel, if she's moving to a region where most people speak another
language as their first language, then she damn well better, especially if she
wants to know what they're saying about her in the arfarchnad yn Caernarfon
while she's tweeking her kiwis. The valleys of the north are not the same as
the valleys of the south.
Hwyl,
Robert
"Spit on an English Speaker" Month Feb. 1, 1998 - March 1, 1998 8-)
Le Front International pour l'eradication et desillumination de la langue
angloise
(This is joke folks, just in case you wondered...)
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Jason O'Rourke:
>Would
>you move to France and make a fuss because they speak French?
>
>
Nigel would! Oh, he would, I just bet you, like all those annoying English
middle class tourists who saunter around Paris like overheeled mastifs,
proclaiming to all and sundry that they'll eat crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrepss for lunch
since that's the only thing the bloody frogs bothered to put on the menu they
can undertsand.
(True story, I saw this very sort of event with my own troll-like Welsh eyes)
Hwyl,
Robert
Nigel Evans
In article <19980203224...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>Oh my little turtledove, you can be a pesky nuisance when you get your knickers
>in a twist. Listen, if you moved to a place, oh call it France, and you wanted
>to teach there, even English, don't you think that the school might require you
>to speak French?
If "the school" required me to speak French, I might
hold different views. But, why the hell should this lady have to learn
Welsh because some politically motivated woman called Gwynneth thinks it
would be a good idea ? Who on earth is Gwynneth to lay down rules for
acceptance in society ? She is the more silly because the lady concerned
is a teacher of a language called "English" !
It's time for the Welsh language to sell itself by
virtue of its merits. These veiled threats do nothing but hinder the
progress of the language and alienate it from the majority of Welsh
people. When are you lot going to grow up and market your product in an
acceptable manner ? Why can't you have regard to the usual standards of
human behaviour ? You mustn't intimidate people. Do everything you can
to convince them to learn Welsh because it would be time well spent but
do not threaten them with loss of livelihood if they do not. You think
that you are helping the language but you kill it slowly with every ill-
chosen word.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <34D774B7...@cableol.co.uk>, Jason O'Rourke
<jason....@cableol.co.uk> writes
>If people
>were *willing* to learn Welsh it could only help the survival of the
>language. What's wrong with that?
If the lady is willing then she will learn. She should
not be threatened and there is no way that employment should be denied
to her if she exercised her right to ignore Welsh. My comments will be
construed as anti-Welsh language, as usual. Sad, really. All I'm trying
to do is to educate Welsh speakers as to how they may promote their
language effectively. No progress will ever be made by the issuing of
threats.
--
Nigel Evans
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <4M4naGAl...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
>Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>
>>If the person indicated a
>>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>
>speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
>a language in order to earn a living.
Not even if they are going to be working with kids whose main language
is Welsh? Be realistic, Nigel. If all around you are speaking Welsh,
you will be at a disadvantage if you speak only English. If that's a
problem, then the person concerned could always earn a living somewhere
else.
>What would you seek to impose on
>employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
>Plaid Cymru ?
Now you're being ridiculous.
> Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
>they see it as a potential instrument of oppression.
That's an upside-down statement if ever I saw one! English speakers
oppressed by the imposition of Welsh! Now THAT is a novel idea.
>This lady should be considered on merit if she
>applies for a teaching post.
Exactly. She should be considered with regard to her suitability for
the job. In a majority Welsh-speaking area, this would no doubt involve
the ability to understand Welsh.
>She should not have to feel, in any way,
>pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
>it.
In a school where the majority of the pupils are first-language Welsh
speakers, I would imagine that the ability to speak/understand at least
some Welsh would have to be a pretty high priority for staff. Otherwise
they will be at a disadvantage. This isn't a case of imposing the
language on anyone.
The fact is that because of the language situation in the school, if two
people applied for a job and only one of them spoke Welsh, all other
things being equal, the Welsh speaker would get the job. This makes
sense. It is a case of matching the skills to the job, and is not a
case of discrimination.
--
Barry Taylor
"Dyfal donc a dyr y llaw" :o)
http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/
Chris
>In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
>Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>
>>If the person indicated a
>>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>
> Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
>speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
>a language in order to earn a living. What would you seek to impose on
>employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
>Plaid Cymru ?
> Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
>they see it as a potential instrument of oppression. Your remarks
>reinforce this view. This lady should be considered on merit if she
>applies for a teaching post. She should not have to feel, in any way,
>pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
>it.
>--
>Nigel Evans
rydwyf yn paratoi y tro+s asbestos
Gwyneth Ellis
Nigel Evans <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<4M4naGAl...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>...
: In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
: Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
:
: >If the person indicated a
: >willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
:
: Why ?
In my oppinion simply because if you move to an area where the majority
language is not your own, and you intend to work in a public field it is
polite to learn the majority language to _some_ degree.
: Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
: speakers ?
In what possible way can you view this as discrimination? If you had
bothered to read more of my original post than the one sentence you can
isolate and argue against, you might have realised that I said there'd be
no problem for an English speaking English teacher to get a job in North
West Wales. Please explain how you could possibly imagine I was being
discriminatory?
: There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
: a language in order to earn a living.
What are you blathering about now? Let me refer you to my original posting
where you will fail to find any reference to forcing people to speak any
language. However, I would point out to you that any non-English speaking
person is forced to learn English in order to earn a living in the UK.
What's your view on that, prey tell?
: What would you seek to impose on
: employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
: Plaid Cymru ?
Oh grow up, won't you?
: Many non-Welsh speakers fear the Welsh language because
: they see it as a potential instrument of oppression.
Many, many others are wiser.
: Your remarks
: reinforce this view.
Rubish!
: This lady should be considered on merit if she
: applies for a teaching post.
Which is what I said.
: She should not have to feel, in any way,
: pressurised into learning or doing anything however much you might wish
: it.
Absolutely. But it sounds like you'd like to get the thought police out to
stop me wishing that people would learn Welsh when they move to Gwynedd.
Your stance on this issue seems to be freedom for all appart from Welsh
nationalists.
If in anyway I offended the original poster, I appologise. It was not
intended. If, on the other hand I offended you, Nigel - I'm not surprised,
and even a litle bit pleased.
hwyl,
Nigel Evans
In article <01bd317b$da183580$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>If in anyway I offended the original poster, I appologise. It was not
>intended. If, on the other hand I offended you, Nigel - I'm not surprised,
>and even a litle bit pleased.
It's not possible for you to offend me. I pity you for
your views. The "language question" seems to have an undue influence on
your outlook on many important issues. I believe that people should be
free to learn anything that pleases them. Your contention that someone
should learn Welsh to be "polite" is absolute nonsense. This lady is
prepared to live in an area where some people speak Welsh and all speak
English. How on earth can it be difficult for her ? The only difficulty
she will face, and she certainly will do, is that which arises when
people who speak both languages decide they will use Welsh only so as to
be rude. She may consider that these people are of such little
consequence that their views and actions can be safely ignored in any
event.
--
Nigel Evans
Gwyneth Ellis
: In article <01bd317b$da183580$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
1. You will not find the word 'should' in my post.
2. I neither want nor appreciate your pity.
3. The "language question" as you put it has a much greater influence on
your outlook than mine, you poor man.
4. Unless you are prepared to answer my questions and explain your
statements, then I'd rather you didn't reply.
5. I'd rather you didn't attribute statements/sentiments to me that you've
made up.
6. I think you owe me an appology.
7. I don't expect one.
8. I consider that you are of such little consequence that your views and
actions can be safely ignored in any event.
hwyl,
David Davies
Nigel Evans wrote in message ...
>In article <01bd317b$da183580$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>,
>The only difficulty
>she will face, and she certainly will do, is that which arises when
>people who speak both languages decide they will use Welsh only so as to
>be rude. She may consider that these people are of such little
>consequence that their views and actions can be safely ignored in any
>event.
>
I guess I'm just not feeling very charitable today Nigel. If I were, I
would assume that what you are trying to say is that a bilingual person
would be rude to answer a unilingual person in the language that unilingual
person does not understand. And you would be absolutely right - that would
be extremely rude. However, in my uncharitable mood I don't think that's
what you mean. I think you mean that people conversing in Welsh should
immediately switch to English whenever the English-only speaker comes near
and that pisses me off mightily for reasons so obvious they need no
discussion.
I guess I'm getting a bad feeling here Nigel - no Welsh Assembly because of
the danger of corruption; no speaking Welsh in front of an English resident
for fear of giving offence. My goodness, what next - no rugby because it
might involve physical contact? No beer because it might contain alcohol?
The mind boggles!
David Davies
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
>This lady is
>prepared to live in an area where some people speak Welsh and all speak
>English.
No, she is moving into an area where virtually *all* the people speak Welsh to
some degree, most as a first language (which means they are more comfortable
with th Welsh language and treat English as a second, foreign language), and
some as a second language. Welsh is the the day to day language de rigueur. I
told you before the North is not like the South. Just because you went to the
ASDA in Llandudno on some weekend trip and heard the clerks speaking English
doesn't mean the rest of the NW acts this way. A good 50-70% of the people in
the NW of Wales would feel much less adept in English than in Welsh.
And let's change the venue from of "foreign"-ness to Quebec instead of France.
Virtually everyone in Quebec can speak English to some degree. Does that mean
she shouldn't have to learn French there?
Also, I don't think any of the comments about the position of the Welsh
language stem directly from any political points Gwyneth may or may not have,
so why are you jumping down *her* throat?
Robert
Nigel Evans
In article <01bd3190$9c9b0a60$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>1. You will not find the word 'should' in my post.
I don't understand this. Your attitude was quite clear.
You don'y have to use specific words to make your view clear. English is
a versatile language.
>2. I neither want nor appreciate your pity.
Well, you've still got it and it is truly deserved.
>3. The "language question" as you put it has a much greater influence on
>your outlook than mine, you poor man.
I am not "poor". Well, not until the assembly gets its
paws on my money.
>4. Unless you are prepared to answer my questions and explain your
>statements, then I'd rather you didn't reply.
Too late.
>5. I'd rather you didn't attribute statements/sentiments to me that you've
>made up.
Such as ?
>6. I think you owe me an appology.
No.
>7. I don't expect one.
Then, you will not be disappointed.
>8. I consider that you are of such little consequence that your views and
>actions can be safely ignored in any event.
>
You do not consider the views of a couple who wish to
work in Wales. They do not speak Welsh and you think that they should. I
work in WAles. I do not speak Welsh. They are no different to me, are
they ?
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <6bacii$lm2$1...@gps4.ndhq.dnd.ca>, David Davies
<aa...@issc.debbs.ndhq.dnd.ca> writes
>I guess I'm getting a bad feeling here Nigel - no Welsh Assembly because of
>the danger of corruption; no speaking Welsh in front of an English resident
>for fear of giving offence. My goodness, what next - no rugby because it
>might involve physical contact? No beer because it might contain alcohol?
>The mind boggles!
You are in the best position to judge if your mind is
"boggled". I notice that you do not deny the existence of people who
revert to Welsh in the company of non-Welsh speakers. The animosity
displayed by Welsh speakers is there for all to see and so you are
unable to deny it. We agree. I take the opportunity of restating my
belief that the greater the number of politicians one has the greater is
the risk of corruption. I do not see too much wrong with either of my
assertions and am sorry that you have recourse to inappropriate issues
in order to make/not make a point.
--
Nigel Evans
SWebb18954
Beth a walli ! What a wally Mr Evans !
Steffan
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
> You do not consider the views of a couple who wish to
>work in Wales. They do not speak Welsh and you think that they should. I
>work in WAles. I do not speak Welsh. They are no different to me, are
>they ?
The views of two people who are not Welsh, but English, and not residents of
that particular region, are completely outweighted by the the views and needs
of the community that's already there. This sort of argument on your part is
purely pedantic.
All of us of reasonable mind believe that if they move to an area where English
is not the language "de rigueur" should learn to speak the one that is. It's
simply logical.
You work in Wales, and you do not speak Welsh, but you are learning it, and
someday you might speak it very well. Then you might fin new job opportunities
open to you which had been previously closed. You will have a new skill, and
new marketable skill which you didn't have before. Since you're not poor you
(and you're probably quite content in whatever your career is), this probably
won't affect you, but still it could.
Also, you do not live in that part of Wales. What's good for the goose is not
necessarily good for gander. Your part of Wales *IS* quintessentially
different from Snowdonia, and you know it is. You, nor any one else on this
group can speak as *THE* authority for all of Wales. Although it's a small
country, it has its own diversity, and the gaps in culture from region to
region are very wide.
Robert
Andy
In article <01bd3190$9c9b0a60$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>1. You will not find the word 'should' in my post.
>your outlook than mine, you poor man.
You insult him here
>4. Unless you are prepared to answer my questions and explain your
>statements, then I'd rather you didn't reply.
>5. I'd rather you didn't attribute statements/sentiments to me that you've
>made up.
>6. I think you owe me an appology.
And ask for an appology here
>7. I don't expect one.
>8. I consider that you are of such little consequence that your views and
>actions can be safely ignored in any event.
and then you continue to insult.
All newgroups, especially of a political nature are hot spots where
frank debates are the norm. Some of the people of this group can dish
out insults and strong words but can't take them in return, and then
these 'children' even put the people they don't agree with in their KILL
FILES. I have to tell you I disagree with the views of a good many
people here and have crossed swords with these people quite a few times
, BUT, I read Everything they write and take all the 'heat of the
moment' remarks in the spirit of heated debate.
Please people, STOP WHINGEING AND WHINING and lets have some good
discussions.
--
Andy
John
and here it is!
Nigel Evans wrote:
> There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
> a language in order to earn a living. What would you seek to impose on
> employees next ?
> Nigel Evans
Very true. This is why your poor old grandfather insisted that your family
speak English (I've never uderstood why this meant excluding Welsh though).
John
Gwyneth Ellis wrote:
> If the person indicated a
> willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>
> Gwyneth.
cue Nigel (I'll bet a pint on it).
John
RJones6901 wrote:
> Sgwennodd Jason O'Rourke:
>
> >Would
> >you move to France and make a fuss because they speak French?
> >
> >
>
> Nigel would!
> Hwyl,
> Robert
no he wouldn't because they speak French in Thailand.
John
Nigel Evans wrote:
> It's time for the Welsh language to sell itself by
> virtue of its merits.
Being able to integrate easily into the community would be a good thing. Being able
to join a conversation with no inconvenience to anybody is also a friendly sociable
thing.
> When are you lot going to grow up and market your product in an
> acceptable manner ?
Market? I'll have to tell my parents this one and all other people with Welsh first
language.As in "John! Shw wyt ti!" "Sorry Mam, I'd like to tell you but you haven't
finished your MBA yet".
John
Nigel Evans wrote:
> You do not consider the views of a couple who wish to
> work in Wales. They do not speak Welsh and you think that they should. I
> work in WAles. I do not speak Welsh. They are no different to me, are
> they ?
one can only hope.
John
Nigel Evans wrote:
> In article <34D774B7...@cableol.co.uk>, Jason O'Rourke
> <jason....@cableol.co.uk> writes
>
> >If people
> >were *willing* to learn Welsh it could only help the survival of the
> >language. What's wrong with that?
>
> If the lady is willing then she will learn. She should
> not be threatened
The post you responded to made no such threat.
> Sad, really. All I'm trying
> to do is to educate Welsh speakers as to how they may promote their
> language effectively.
Thanks. Your comments are always helpful in making us realise
how inconsiderate and narrow-minded some Welsh people are.
John
Nigel Evans wrote:
> You are in the best position to judge if your mind is
> "boggled". I notice that you do not deny the existence of people who
> revert to Welsh in the company of non-Welsh speakers. The animosity
> displayed by Welsh speakers is there for all to see and so you are
> unable to deny it. We agree. I take the opportunity of restating my
> belief that the greater the number of politicians one has the greater is
> the risk of corruption. I do not see too much wrong with either of my
> assertions and am sorry that you have recourse to inappropriate issues
> in order to make/not make a point.
> --
parsing:
I am right and sometimes you are as well.
John
Barry Taylor wasted his time with the following comments:
> Yn erthygl <4M4naGAl...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
> <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
> >In article <01bd30c6$967d64e0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
> >Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
> >
> >>If the person indicated a
> >>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
> >
> > Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
> >speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
> >a language in order to earn a living.
>
> Not even if they are going to be working with kids whose main language
> is Welsh?
> Be realistic, Nigel.
WHAT?
> If all around you are speaking Welsh,you will be at a disadvantage if you
> speak only English. If that's a problem, then the person concerned could
> always earn a living somewhere else.
> >What would you seek to impose on
> >employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
> >Plaid Cymru ?
>
> Now you're being ridiculous.
This coment holds no information.
Gwyneth Ellis
Nigel Evans <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> displays his abusive nature thus:
: But, why the hell should this lady have to learn
: Welsh because some politically motivated woman called Gwynneth thinks it
: would be a good idea ? Who on earth is Gwynneth to lay down rules for
: acceptance in society ? She is the more silly because the lady concerned
: is a teacher of a language called "English" !
I will try and spell this out in one syll able words for you - I did not
say she should have to learn Welsh. I said it would be nice if she would
learn _some_ Welsh. If you can not or will not see what I mean you are a
right thick man. End of single syllables - too hard. I am not politically
motivated in this - please withdraw that statement unless you can
substantiate it. If anyone is laying down rules in this thread, it is you,
not I.
: It's time for the Welsh language to sell itself by
: virtue of its merits.
Eh? Will you pay for the adverts? How much should we charge?
: These veiled threats do nothing but hinder the
: progress of the language and alienate it from the majority of Welsh
: people.
I must be dreaming. There were no threats, veiled or otherwise in my posts.
Please appologise.
: When are you lot going to grow up and market your product in an
: acceptable manner ?
: Why can't you have regard to the usual standards of
: human behaviour ? You mustn't intimidate people. Do everything you can
: to convince them to learn Welsh because it would be time well spent but
: do not threaten them with loss of livelihood if they do not. You think
: that you are helping the language but you kill it slowly with every ill-
: chosen word.
You are truly on a different planet. Nobody has threatened anybody. It is a
fact that knowledge of the Welsh language in Wales will give you more job
opportunities. A fact. Something that you should look up in a dictionary
and maybe even sometimes make use of in your arguments nstead of your usual
Nigelfacts.
: In article <01bd3190$9c9b0a60$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
:Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
:
:>1. You will not find the word 'should' in my post.
:
: I don't understand this. Your attitude was quite clear.
:You don'y have to use specific words to make your view clear. English is
:a versatile language.
:
I said it would be nice etc. Totally different to "she should" by any
interpretation. You put words in my mouth. You owe me an appology.
:
:
:>2. I neither want nor appreciate your pity.
:
:
: Well, you've still got it and it is truly deserved.
Thank you. However since you are the one alienating/excluding a huge chunk
of Welsh society, never to know the joys you might have missed - you are
the one deserving of pity. I'm not as magnanimous as you though, so I
with-hold it.
:
:>3. The "language question" as you put it has a much greater influence on
:>your outlook than mine, you poor man.
:
: I am not "poor". Well, not until the assembly gets its
:paws on my money.
I just knew a man like you would be a bragger. You are poor, whether you
realise it or not. If _only_ I could find it in my heart to pity you!
:
:>4. Unless you are prepared to answer my questions and explain your
:>statements, then I'd rather you didn't reply.
:
: Too late.
It was just wishfull thinking on my part. The idea that you'd stoop so low
as to answer questions put to you, or even defend you ludicrous statements
is ridicullous, I know.
:
:>5. I'd rather you didn't attribute statements/sentiments to me that
you've
:>made up.
:
: Such as ?
Oh, too many to mention. They include forcing people to learn Welsh,
threatening people and being politically motivated.
:>6. I think you owe me an appology.
:
: No.
No, I didn'r think you were a man of honour. One thing you'll never do is
admit you're wrong. You do shut up for a while sometimes though. Maybe now
would be a good time.
:
:>7. I don't expect one.
:
: Then, you will not be disappointed.
I'm never dissapointed by you - Mr. unexpected you are not.
:
:>8. I consider that you are of such little consequence that your views and
:>actions can be safely ignored in any event.
:>
:
: You do not consider the views of a couple who wish to
:work in Wales.
Yes, I do.
: They do not speak Welsh and you think that they should.
No, I don't.
: I work in WAles. I do not speak Welsh. They are no different to me, are
:they ?
I hope they are - I truly hope they are.
:--
:Nigel Evans
:--
Illtud Daniel
>prepared to live in an area where some people speak Welsh and all speak
>she will face, and she certainly will do, is that which arises when
>people who speak both languages decide they will use Welsh only so as to
>be rude.
Your ignorance of Wales is betrayed by your every post, Nigel bach.
Ignorance is your bane, coupled with a rather useless pride which
keeps you ignorant.
--
Illtud Daniel ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk
-Read Mr Nice (now available in paperback!)- -Buy Radiator-
Nigel Evans
In article <34D967E8...@cern.ch>, John <John....@cern.ch> writes
>Thanks. Your comments are always helpful in making us realise
>how inconsiderate and narrow-minded some Welsh people are.
And, thanks are due to you as well. A splendid effort
this time - very nearly three lines of wisdom. I look forward to seeing
you in full flow one day.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <19980204190...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>No, she is moving into an area where virtually *all* the people speak Welsh to
>some degree, most as a first language (which means they are more comfortable
>with th Welsh language and treat English as a second, foreign language), and
>some as a second language.
This is not true. The majority of people in North Wales
do not speak Welsh. True, there are areas where the language is strong
but there are large areas wher Welsh is spoken by only a minority. It is
true to say that all speak English.
> Welsh is the the day to day language de rigueur. I
>told you before the North is not like the South.
No, thank God, it isn't !
> Just because you went to the
>ASDA in Llandudno on some weekend trip and heard the clerks speaking English
>doesn't mean the rest of the NW acts this way. A good 50-70% of the people in
>the NW of Wales would feel much less adept in English than in Welsh.
I spent enough time in Llandudno whilst a child to
ensure that I would not be caught there again.
>
>And let's change the venue from of "foreign"-ness to Quebec instead of France.
>Virtually everyone in Quebec can speak English to some degree. Does that mean
>she shouldn't have to learn French there?
This is unfair. Do you know Quebec from personal
experience. I don't but have been given all the necessary information by
friends who live there now and friends who, having lived there once,
have now returned. Quebec is nothing like any part of Wales. It is
virtually a separate country. It has its own traditions and it is
different to Wales in that there are few divisions within it. We are
totally unlike Quebec because there are people like me, in their
hundreds of thousands, who do not want a separate state. The vast
majority of people who live in Quebec are united in their aims. We are
not. I'm not going to change my views. The others aren't going to change
either. So, you'd better get used to the idea that there will be no
independence. Quebec is different !
>Also, I don't think any of the comments about the position of the Welsh
>language stem directly from any political points Gwyneth may or may not have,
>so why are you jumping down *her* throat?
I, genuinely, do not understand this point. I am "jumping
down her throat" because she has the affrontery to tell someone to learn
a language. She has no right to tell anybody what they should do.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <01bd321b$3d160140$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>I will try and spell this out in one syll able words for you - I did not
>say she should have to learn Welsh. I said it would be nice if she would
>learn _some_ Welsh. If you can not or will not see what I mean you are a
>right thick man. End of single syllables - too hard. I am not politically
>motivated in this - please withdraw that statement unless you can
>substantiate it. If anyone is laying down rules in this thread, it is you,
>not I.
Not "politically motivated" ? So, what is your motivation
for saying this ? Was it perhaps a reflex action ?
>I must be dreaming. There were no threats, veiled or otherwise in my posts.
>Please appologise.
No chance ! Either these were threats or else your
command of the English language is not up to the mark. Perhaps you'd
like to consider writing in Welsh.
>You are truly on a different planet. Nobody has threatened anybody. It is a
>fact that knowledge of the Welsh language in Wales will give you more job
>opportunities. A fact. Something that you should look up in a dictionary
>and maybe even sometimes make use of in your arguments nstead of your usual
>Nigelfacts.
Literally, no. I do not live in your idea of Wales. I
live in the real thing. Why should having a knowledge of Welsh give more
opportunity ? In some specialised jobs, Welsh language teaching etc., it
obviously is. There is, however, no need for Welsh in a society where
all speak English. It is simply an excuse to bring undue pressure to
bear on non-Welsh speakers. Anybody should be free to seek employment in
Wales. The language is of no importance. Would you suggest that we get
rid of the large numbers of Asian doctors we have in our hospitals ? No,
of course you wouldn't. The important thing is that they are competent
doctors. And, it's the same thing for all professions and occupations.
Discrimination by virtue of language is just disgusting as
discrimination by religion or the colour of skin.
You are free to support your language. You are not free
to dictate to people as to where they live, how they live and what they
do. Please learn to separate your support for the language from the rest
of the activities of life. It seems to me that to deny people employment
is un-Christian. I do not profess to be a "Christian". I have no need to
do so. I just try to act like one.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <6bc9gp$k44$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Illtud Daniel
<ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Your ignorance of Wales is betrayed by your every post, Nigel bach.
>Ignorance is your bane, coupled with a rather useless pride which
>keeps you ignorant.
I cannot comment on your opinions as it seems that you
have never expressed any. You seem content to criticise those who voice
their opinions without risking criticism of your own.
So far I have learned from you that you disagree with
things that I say. I have learned that I am "ignorant". I don't think I
am "ignorant". Let's face it even if I am incredibly stupid the chances
are that I have learned something by living in Wales as long as I have.
I am not going to call you "ignorant". You are, however,
rude. And, I repeat you appear to be void of any opinions. If you're not
then you might like to explain why, in over two years, you have failed
to express any. ( Whilst I'm at it these comments could be just as well
directed as the "Granite" chap from Oxford and the bloke in Switzerland.
They never say anything which remotely approaches an opinion. They only
criticise others. Well, let's be honest, they criticise me. I'd love to
hear their views. Perhaps, they haven't got any. Have you considered
forming a newsgroup especially for people who do not have opinions ? It
could be great fun ! )
--
Nigel Evans
Paul Floyd
In article <CSXJtFAW...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>,
I don't see any correlation between quantity and quality.
If I had to pay to read abusenet I'd be happier to see less tediously long
posts, and more brief and to the point ones.
Paul
>--
>Nigel Evans
--
Dr. Paul Floyd, Department of Electrical Engineering (sort of)
University of Manchester, UK "@afs.mcc..." not meehpc.ee.man
David Davies
Nigel Evans wrote in message ...
>
> You are in the best position to judge if your mind is
>"boggled". I notice that you do not deny the existence of people who
>revert to Welsh in the company of non-Welsh speakers. The animosity
>displayed by Welsh speakers is there for all to see and so you are
>unable to deny it. We agree.
To remove this argument from a Welsh context just for a tiny moment, I would
suggest that such behaviour, ignorant though it is, is a human trait. I
would certainly not suggest, and definitely not agree, that it is a
specifically Welsh trait, as you seem to. Such a suggestion is very
demeaning and inappropriate. I am not a Welsh speaker, my wife is American,
but during numerous visits home to definitely Welsh-speaking parts of Wales
over the years, neither of us has ever experienced animosity such as you
describe - not once, not ever. Is it there? Probably! Does it happen? No
doubt! But not even remotely to the extent you suggest.
Cheers.
David Davies
Nigel Evans
In article <6bd2fj$4gc$1...@yama.mcc.ac.uk>, Paul Floyd
<mbh...@meehpc.ee.man.ac.uk> writes
>I don't see any correlation between quantity and quality.
>
>If I had to pay to read abusenet I'd be happier to see less tediously long
>posts, and more brief and to the point ones.
No, I agree. But, in this gentleman's case, praise is
due. He normally writes about eight words of drivel. Given greater
practice, and , dare I say, greater length, he may become coherent one
day.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <19980204234...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>You work in Wales, and you do not speak Welsh, but you are learning it, and
>someday you might speak it very well. Then you might fin new job opportunities
>open to you which had been previously closed. You will have a new skill, and
>new marketable skill which you didn't have before. Since you're not poor you
>(and you're probably quite content in whatever your career is), this probably
>won't affect you, but still it could.
Last night was my last opportunity to return to my Welsh
class without having fallen too far behind the other students. Pressure
of work and absence from the town has meant that I haven't been able to
attend lately. I have, therefore, reluctantly abandoned it.
I would not gain any opportunities by learning it. My
motivation to learn was something totally unconnected with employment.
Speaking a language is not a skill. I have a friend who is fluent in
many languages but there are few employment opportunities resulting
directly from his talent.
I am not poor because I have worked hard. I think other
people should do the same.
--
Nigel Evans
Jonathan Dembling
Nigel Evans wrote:
> This is unfair. Do you know Quebec from personal
> experience. I don't but have been given all the necessary information by
> friends who live there now and friends who, having lived there once,
> have now returned. Quebec is nothing like any part of Wales. It is
> virtually a separate country. It has its own traditions and it is
> different to Wales in that there are few divisions within it.
You mean aside from the Anglophone-Allophone-Francophone division, the
Montreal/Eastern Townships - pure laine division, and the First Nations
- euro division.
We are
> totally unlike Quebec because there are people like me, in their
> hundreds of thousands, who do not want a separate state. The vast
> majority of people who live in Quebec are united in their aims.
50.6% comprises a "vast majority"?
Jonathan Dembling
Somerville, Massachusetts
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <34D968C7...@cern.ch>, sgrifenws John
<John....@cern.ch>:
>Barry Taylor wasted his time with the following comments:
You're the one who took the time to read it :o)
>> >>If the person indicated a
>> >>willingness to learn Welsh as well, even better.
>> >
>> > Why ? Isn't this discrimination against non-Welsh
>> >speakers ? There is no reason why anybody should be forced into learning
>> >a language in order to earn a living.
>>
>> Not even if they are going to be working with kids whose main language
>> is Welsh?
>
>> Be realistic, Nigel.
>
>WHAT?
I thought I made myself quite clear. What exactly do you find difficult
to understand about what I said?
One thing perhaps I should make clear after reading my comments again: I
don't advocate _forcing_ anybody to learn Welsh. However, in the
circumstances mentioned above, a person who didn't speak Welsh would be
less likely to fit in, or even get the job in the first place. I would
certainly _encourage_ that person to learn Welsh.
>> If all around you are speaking Welsh,you will be at a disadvantage if you
>> speak only English. If that's a problem, then the person concerned could
>> always earn a living somewhere else.
>
>> >What would you seek to impose on
>> >employees next ? Perhaps they all should be card carrying members of
>> >Plaid Cymru ?
>>
>
>> Now you're being ridiculous.
>
>This coment holds no information.
It holds plenty. Nigel made a ridiculous comment, so I pointed that
out. It holds as much info as your own comment.
--
Barry Taylor
"Dyfal donc a dyr y llaw" :o)
http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/
Adrian Jones
To summarise :-
1. Nigel is from South Wales, and doesn't speak Welsh.
2. Nearly everybody else is from North Wales and does.
3. They don't like Nigel for pointing out the one essential fact -
that a society needs a diverse mix of cultures to exist, and that
these cultures must be encouraged NOT forced.
Please respect Nigel's wish not to speak Welsh - it does not make him
any less Welsh.
Indeed, all this talk reminds me of a quote by James Thurber, who,
when complimented that his English was very good, replied "it should
be - I spent 40 years in Colombus, Ohio, working on it like a dog!"
Nigel does not have the opportunity to speak Welsh on a daily basis.
It is not a big part of his life - not many people speak it in De
Cymru. Not knowing it has the same effect as knowing it - none.
( Except being able to understand Grav. on Y Clwb Rygbi, and watch
Pobl Y Cwm without the subtitles.)
Basically, you are flogging a dead cefyll? preserving the language in
South Wales. ( Something to do with the "Welsh Not?" )
And all this backbiting isn't helping..
Please shake hands, make up and answer the original posters question!
Ade.
Nigel Evans
In article <FXb1vUAo...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>Yn erthygl <34D968C7...@cern.ch>, sgrifenws John
><John....@cern.ch>:
>I thought I made myself quite clear. What exactly do you find difficult
>to understand about what I said?
See below.
>One thing perhaps I should make clear after reading my comments again: I
>don't advocate _forcing_ anybody to learn Welsh. However, in the
>circumstances mentioned above, a person who didn't speak Welsh would be
>less likely to fit in, or even get the job in the first place. I would
>certainly _encourage_ that person to learn Welsh.
Why wouldn't they "get the job in the first place" ?
Because they would be treated unfairly because they did not speak Welsh,
that's why ! And, that is wrong ! You have no right to "encourage" them
to learn Welsh. You are advocating "bully boy tactics". The really sad
thing is that you cannot see this for yourself. You're so blinded by
your support of the language that all other values go "out of the
window". People must be free to live their lives without being
"encouraged" to comply with your personal wishes.
>>> If all around you are speaking Welsh,you will be at a disadvantage if you
>>> speak only English. If that's a problem, then the person concerned could
>>> always earn a living somewhere else.
This was an awful thing to say. Are you that heartless
and so uncaring for your fellow man ? Don't you think that people should
be free to work without being discriminated against on any grounds ?
>>> Now you're being ridiculous.
>>
>>This coment holds no information.
>
>It holds plenty. Nigel made a ridiculous comment, so I pointed that
>out. It holds as much info as your own comment.
Steady on, boys ! There's no point in falling out with
each other. You have so much in common. Really you do !
--
Nigel Evans
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
In article <6b76a6$n32$2...@cfs2.kis.keele.ac.uk>, u5...@NOSPAM.keele.ac.uk (MH
Roberts) wrote:
> Teaching in a Welsh-language school might prove a bit of a problem for
> your
> wife, but there would be nothing stopping her from teaching at an
> English-medium school. In fact, I went to a bilingual Secondary School
> where there were many non-Welsh-speaking teachers.
Any English, non-Welsh-speaking teacher contemplating working in a school in
Wales has to take into consideration not just the Welsh-speaking pupils but
also his/her Welsh-speaking colleagues.
It can be awful to go into a staffroom on your first day and find that
everyone is speaking a different language and no-one speaks to you.
I know -- it happened to me as a young teacher.
I can see both sides of the coin -- why should they have turned to English
when speaking Welsh was what they were used to -- but I'll always remember
the misery I felt on that first day.
From then on, I determined to learn and for a while taught the language
every day for half an hour, just a few steps ahead of my junior class. (I
had a smattering, being of Welsh descent though brought up in England.)
Eventually, I took a year off to attend Barry College for an intensive
course in oral Welsh led by. I came out speaking quite fluently but reaction
from some native Welsh-speakers was ridicule. One so-called friend said I
spoke like a book to which I replied, 'At least you can understand me, I
can't understand you'. (He was a Gog.)
So if you are English, you can't really win even if you learn the lingo!
Twenty four years on and back in England, I still sometimes think in Welsh
and even on occasion dream in Welsh but I was always a foreigner in the land
where my Welsh-speaking ancestors came from. The irony is that people in
England think I'm a foreigner, too, because I picked up a Welsh accent
during my time in the valleys.
A couple of years ago when I spoke to my husband in Welsh while waiting for
a lock to fill on an English canal a man threatened to duff me up beacause
he thought I was talking about him!
Josephine
--
___ _|______________________:_ __________________________
\___|___Glas y Dorlan________|____ /
|________________________________/ / Josephine Jeremiah
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ /
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
In article <na.e4d19e4813....@argonet.co.uk>, Ian and Jo Jeremiah
<iana...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> A couple of years ago when I spoke to my husband in Welsh while waiting
> for
> he thought I was talking about him!
She was but he didn't!
Josephine has been caught out a couple of times like that. We were once at a
lock on the Staffordshire & Worcestershire Canal when she asked me a
question in Welsh. She was answered, in Welsh, by the disembodied voice of
the lock-keeper, (he was in his coal-house). Good job she wasn't talking
about him!
I also attended the same Welsh course as her, led by Cennard and Basil
Davies. It was on that course that I first came across 'Welsh bigots'. There
were a number of people on the course who had similar beliefs to some of the
people on this newsgroup. One of the worst was actually English! Their
attitude coloured my view of Wales and the Welsh language, and was possibly
one of the reasons why I am now, a Welshman, living in exile in England!
In my experience, there is a lot of substance in what Nigel Evans has to
say. Don't forget, the majority of Welsh people only speak English! Or
should I say 'Wenglish', the locals where I now live can't understand half
of what I say when I speak in English/Wenglish, let alone Welsh.:-)
There is still a strong 'Welsh' culture in Wales but it isn't dependent on
everyone being able to speak Welsh.
To get back on topic, we have a friend who would like to teach in Wales but
she has also has the same problem as the Arnolds. She is Welsh, her family
live in Wales, but unfortunately she doesn't speak Welsh.:-(
Ian
--
___ _|______________________:_ __________________________
\___|___Glas y Dorlan________|____ /
|________________________________/ / Ian Jeremiah
Llew (Scott) Thomas
Ian and Jo Jeremiah wrote:
>
> In my experience, there is a lot of substance in what Nigel Evans has to
> say.
Perhaps, but that substance tends to be crap.
* Llew Thomas
* ls...@earthlink.net
*
*Paid a malu cachu, Nigel. :)
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
>ity of people in North Wales
>do not speak Welsh. True, there are areas where the language is strong
>but there are large areas wher Welsh is spoken by only a minority
Bullshit Nigel. You know perfectly well I'm talking about NW Wales, and in NW
Wales the Welsh speaking population ranges roughly from 50-80% depending on
just where you are. Please don't repaint the facts to suit your feeble
argument. If you go down to Pwllheli, everyone in that town speaks Welsh to
some degree.
And people who speak Welsh as their first language will always feel more
comfortable in it. I can tolerate your wilde opinions (most of the time), but
not your complete misrepresentation of the facts.
>This is unfair. Do you know Quebec from personal
>experience.
I think the other gentleman's points on Quebec sum up the facts very well and
pointedly. However, just FYI I know Quebec pretty well. I'm only 3 hours from
Montreal by car, and French is one of my languages, so...
>She has no right to tell anybody what they should do.
Yes she has. And you have every right to tell her you disagree (a liberty you
seem to take to heart). It's unique concept which has escaped the English
system of governance... it's called free speech.
Hwyl my petunia,
Robert
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
> I have, therefore, reluctantly abandoned it. [his Welsh class]
I'm sorry to hear that, but I invite you cordially to use whatever Welsh you
have learned in any personal correspondance with me if you'd like to practice
what you have already learned.
>Speaking a language is not a skill. I have a friend who is fluent in
>many languages but there are few employment opportunities resulting
>directly from his talent.
Then what is speaking a language Nigel? A magic trick? A cucumber sandwich? It
*is* a skill, but you can call it a "vibromasseur 2000" if it'll make you
happy.
I on the other hand land $500 - $8,000 contracts hither and yon becuase I
speak many languages, so I guess your friend just isn't very adept in finding
jobs in which he can use his languages. Oh well.
Hwyl,
Robert
John
Adrian Jones wrote:
> To summarise :-
>
> 1. Nigel is from South Wales, and doesn't speak Welsh.
> 2. Nearly everybody else is from North Wales and does.
no comment on either statement
> 3. They don't like Nigel for pointing out the one essential fact -
> that a society needs a diverse mix of cultures to exist, and that
> these cultures must be encouraged NOT forced.
>
> Please respect Nigel's wish not to speak Welsh - it does not make him
> any less Welsh.
Nigel can do as he wishes but he must expect some response if he
(seemingly deliberately) misconstrues a perfectly innocent post.
> Please shake hands, make up and answer the original posters question!
>
somebody already has.
John
ok. just write something that i haven t heard before (lots).
Nigel Evans wrote:
> In article <34D967E8...@cern.ch>, John <John....@cern.ch> writes
>
> >Thanks. Your comments are always helpful in making us realise
> >how inconsiderate and narrow-minded some Welsh people are.
>
> And, thanks are due to you as well. A splendid effort
> this time - very nearly three lines of wisdom. I look forward to seeing
> you in full flow one day.
> --
> Nigel Evans
John
Nigel Evans wrote:
> Whilst I'm at it these comments could be just as well
> directed as the "Granite" chap from Oxford and the bloke in Switzerland.
>
> Nigel Evans
Thanks for the mention. Interesting anagram as well.Ta, Nigel
Nigel Evans
In article <19980206044...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>Bullshit Nigel. You know perfectly well I'm talking about NW Wales, and in NW
>Wales the Welsh speaking population ranges roughly from 50-80% depending on
>just where you are. Please don't repaint the facts to suit your feeble
>argument. If you go down to Pwllheli, everyone in that town speaks Welsh to
>some degree.
Yes. In Pwllheli. Have you tried Rhyl or Colwyn Bay ?
You really have to face up to the fact that whilst there are large areas
of land where Welsh is spoken, very few people live on them. Welsh is
not the language of the majority in North Wales. In Pwllheli, yes.
>And people who speak Welsh as their first language will always feel more
>comfortable in it. I can tolerate your wilde opinions (most of the time), but
>not your complete misrepresentation of the facts.
There are hundreds of thousands who think just like me !
Are you going to ignore their "wild views". Most people in my town
couldn't care less about Welsh.
>>She has no right to tell anybody what they should do.
>
>Yes she has. And you have every right to tell her you disagree (a liberty you
>seem to take to heart). It's unique concept which has escaped the English
>system of governance... it's called free speech.
>
"Free speech" doesn't mean being petty and vindictive. Looks
to me that North Wales could do with a couple of good English teachers.
>Hwyl my petunia,
>Robert
I do not think that you have made any valid points. But, even
if you had, you've blown it with this silly remark. It seems to be
typical of Welsh language fanatics and nationalists, in general, that
they kick out irrationally when they hear contrary opinions. It's very
much like the spoiled child who, not having had his way, takes his
football home. They initially join together for mutual support in
attacking the perceived enemy. Trouble is they're all gutless as
individuals and, when the team spirit breaks down, they all run away. I
am pleased with this because the group becomes less extreme. I would
like to see a large influx of people into this group. They could talk
about Welsh culture. That would be nice, wouldn't it ?
Meanwhile, the others, who used the group for their mutual
admiration can go and play with their own discussion groups and mailing
lists. I am certain that this newsgroup will, one day, genuinely reflect
the views of all people in Wales. All shades of opinion will be
expressed. And, there will be harmony.
"Petunia" ? Hardly.
--
Nigel Evans
Chris
>In article <6bc9gp$k44$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Illtud Daniel
><ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> writes
>
>>Your ignorance of Wales is betrayed by your every post, Nigel bach.
>>Ignorance is your bane, coupled with a rather useless pride which
>>keeps you ignorant.
>
> I cannot comment on your opinions as it seems that you
>have never expressed any. You seem content to criticise those who voice
>their opinions without risking criticism of your own.
> So far I have learned from you that you disagree with
>things that I say. I have learned that I am "ignorant". I don't think I
>am "ignorant". Let's face it even if I am incredibly stupid the chances
>are that I have learned something by living in Wales as long as I have.
> I am not going to call you "ignorant". You are, however,
>rude. And, I repeat you appear to be void of any opinions. If you're not
>then you might like to explain why, in over two years, you have failed
>to express any. ( Whilst I'm at it these comments could be just as well
>directed as the "Granite" chap from Oxford and the bloke in Switzerland.
>They never say anything which remotely approaches an opinion. They only
>criticise others. Well, let's be honest, they criticise me. I'd love to
>hear their views. Perhaps, they haven't got any. Have you considered
>forming a newsgroup especially for people who do not have opinions ? It
>could be great fun ! )
>--
>Nigel Evans
Nigel, it is not big or clever to write 300 words on why you think the
Welsh Assembly and language are crap. It is merely sad, very sad.
Chris
remove nospam from email address to reply
http://www.anchor.co.uk/home/chris
Paul Sanders
Ian and Jo Jeremiah <iana...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> I took a year off to attend Barry College for an intensive course in
> oral Welsh led by.
Led by.....???
Pwy?? Prid wnes ti'r cwrs??
Wnes i'r cwrs cymraeg yn Y Barri yn 1972-73. Roedd Cennard Davies
yr arweinydd gyda Basil a Mrs roberts yn gweithio gyda fe weithiau.
Roedd y cwrs yn Weycock Cross, yn agos i'r sw.
Does dim rhaid i ti becso achos "ffrind" wedi bod tipyn yn greulon
am dy gymraeg di, dal ati. Rydw i' siwr maen well na fy rwssieg i!
Rydw i wedi byw yn Guernsey am bron bymtheg mlynnedd, felly maen ddrwg
gen i am y camsyniadau rammaddegol a'r syllafu.
--
Paul Sanders
Educational Technology Officer
Guernsey
email:- psan...@guernsey.net
49 30N 2 37W
DaviesJL
In article <19980206045...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, rjone...@aol.com
(RJones6901) writes:
>Sgwennodd Nigel:
>
>> I have, therefore, reluctantly abandoned it. [his Welsh class]
>
>
I have to admit that the above comes as a disappointment to me, even if not as
a total surprise. I haven't seen the post with the reason, so I won't say any
more for the time being.
However, Nigel, if you want Welsh pushed down your throat at any time, you're
always welcome to pop down to Llanishen!
Lynne
Nigel Evans
In article <2747920511594...@comlab.oxford.ac.uk>, Geraint
Jones <Gerain...@wolfson.oxford.ac.uk> writes
>Here is one bonus opinion to keep you going; well, more of a
>niggle really: I think it was despicable of you to launch your
>vitriolic attack on a lady without taking the trouble to spell
>her name correctly.
>
>Very clever, no doubt; but not the act of a gentleman, what?
I read your every word ! But, you have me baffled with
these. What have I done wrong, please ?
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <na.e4d19e4813....@argonet.co.uk>, Ian and Jo
Jeremiah <iana...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>I can see both sides of the coin -- why should they have turned to English
>when speaking Welsh was what they were used to -- but I'll always remember
>the misery I felt on that first day.
Thank you for your comments. They have injected a huge
dose of realism into the debate. Your story is very sad. I am sure that
your comments will draw few follow-ups from the majority on this group.
They will not like what you have said. They will regard you as being
perverse. I will not matter to them that you have said the truth. They
will ignore you and hope that you will go away. You are an embarrassment
to them.
Please stay. Not because you have proven me right but
because this group needs "realism" and "truth" in large doses.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <n141...@guernsey.net>, Paul Sanders
<psan...@guernsey.net> writes
>
>Led by.....???
>
>Pwy?? Prid wnes ti'r cwrs??
>
>Wnes i'r cwrs cymraeg yn Y Barri yn 1972-73. Roedd Cennard Davies
>yr arweinydd gyda Basil a Mrs roberts yn gweithio gyda fe weithiau.
You're amazing ! A reply in Welsh is hardly tactful under
the circumstances is it.
--
Nigel Evans
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
>>Bullshit Nigel. You know perfectly well I'm talking about NW Wales, and in
>NW
>>Wales the Welsh speaking population ranges roughly from 50-80% depending on
>>just where you are.
>You really have to face up to the fact that whilst there are large areas
>of land where Welsh is spoken, very few people live on them. Welsh is
>not the language of the majority in North Wales. In Pwllheli, yes.
Nigel, I said it once, twice, now thrice: NORTH WEST WALES. And what's more my
petunia, what the population density is of NW Wales has nothing to do with
whether Welsh is the predominant language there, nor does it affect the
original poster's question of getting a job. The fact is that in NW Wales,
Welsh *is* the language de rigueur. You can live in your dream world if you
like, but just to give you nightmares, here are a few numbers from Bwrdd yr
Iaith Gymraeg (created by and Act passed by the government you seem to love so
much).
County % Welsh Speakers
Gwynedd 72.1
Ynys Mon 62.0
Funny that, in't it? I mean, here are two counties that take up most of NW
Wales and the percentages of people who speak Welsh there is roughly between
50-80% just like I said. Now, those two counties are in NW Wales, are they
not?However west Wales in general is a majority Welsh speaking region....
Ceredigion 59.1
Sir Gaerfyrddin 54.8
And you mentioned Colwyn (which is as I recall the strange periodic northern
bastion of Tory-dom, if I'm not mistaken) which interestingly has a total Welsh
speaking population of 30.6 %, however among the younger generation (ages 3-15)
that number is 44.2, closer to half (in case percentages escape you). Assuming
that number remains more or less stable in coming years and generations, Colwyn
will also be majority Welsh speaking in the future.
So Nigel dear, eat my shorts!
Robert
Nigel Evans
In article <19980206164...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>
>And you mentioned Colwyn (which is as I recall the strange periodic northern
>bastion of Tory-dom, if I'm not mistaken) which interestingly has a total Welsh
>speaking population of 30.6 %, however among the younger generation (ages 3-15)
>that number is 44.2, closer to half (in case percentages escape you). Assuming
>that number remains more or less stable in coming years and generations, Colwyn
>will also be majority Welsh speaking in the future.
It's those nasty Tories again. Yes, the people of
Colwyn Bay are despicable. They have Conservatives there and, what's
more, the majority of them do not speak Welsh. They have a cheek to call
themselves Welsh ! Sooner the better these creatures are put on trains
and sent out of the country ! Me, as well ! What am I doing in this
country ? I have no right to be here.
Thank you for your figures. You confirm that in
certain areas the "magic" 50% figure is achieved. And, of course, in
others, it is not.
Perhaps "partition" is the answer. The English
speakers and Welsh speakers could be moved to their own reservations.
The Welsh-speakers could have Anglesey. They could knock down the bridge
and cut themselves from the rest of the world. They could have their own
parliament and tax themselves to the limit. It would be "heaven on
earth". They could ensure that nothing other than Welsh was spoken. They
could dress up in "funny hats" and go "dragon hunting".They could help
establish "The Fourth World". This would be infinitely more "cultured"
than "The Third World" but twice as poor. And, then they would see
reality for the first time in their lives. They would realise that they
could not do without groundlings like me. Or, the wretches of Colwyn
Bay.
>
>So Nigel dear, eat my shorts!
>
>Robert
I am not surprised about your choice of words. I suspect
that Bart Simpson has more idea of Wales than you do. Perhaps you could
introduce him to the group ? I have to go now. I must be in the ghetto
before seven o'clock.
--
Nigel Evans
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
In article <n141...@guernsey.net>, psan...@guernsey.net (Paul Sanders)
wrote:
>
> Led by.....???
>
I didn't actually write 'led by'. Ian (typical teacher!) doctored my posting
for which I've given him some stick!
> Pwy?? Prid wnes ti'r cwrs??
>
Cennard and Basil. We were there in 1974-5 and it was one of the best years
of our lives. Learning Welsh can be great fun and, of course, we had
excellent teachers!
Ian says I ought to reply in Welsh but I have a hang-up about doing that!
Josephine
--
___ _|______________________:_ __________________________
\___|___Glas y Dorlan________|____ /
|________________________________/ / Josephine Jeremiah
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
Can anyone supply the last three verses, in Welsh (hopefully), of the poem,
Nant y mynydd, please? I can only remember the first verse ....
Nant y mynydd, groyw loyw,
Yn ymdroelli tua'r pant.
Rhwng y brwyn yn sisial ganu
O na bawn i fel y nant.
I'm not too clever at Welsh spelling so I hope no one takes offence.:-)
I want to teach it to Ian's class for St. David's Day. Even though he
teaches English children he still does a St. David's Day assembly and
amazingly the kids pick up the words very easily. They really enjoy the
experience -- it wouldn't take very long to get them bilingual. Don't think
their parents would be over the moon, though! :-)
Gwyneth Ellis
Nigel Evans <ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<n+HAmBAWt020Ew$c...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>...
: Perhaps "partition" is the answer. The English
: speakers and Welsh speakers could be moved to their own reservations.
: The Welsh-speakers could have Anglesey. They could knock down the bridge
: and cut themselves from the rest of the world. They could have their own
: parliament and tax themselves to the limit. It would be "heaven on
: earth". They could ensure that nothing other than Welsh was spoken. They
: could dress up in "funny hats" and go "dragon hunting".They could help
: establish "The Fourth World". This would be infinitely more "cultured"
: than "The Third World" but twice as poor. And, then they would see
: reality for the first time in their lives. They would realise that they
: could not do without groundlings like me. Or, the wretches of Colwyn
: Bay.
Isn't it a shame that we Welsh have to argue and bicker like this in front
of the whole world? In my oppinion we're not a divided nation. I have lived
in the north and south. I've attended eisteddfodau and rugby matches at
Pontypridd. I went to a school where most spoke Welsh, and a university
where most spoke English (I was one of only three who spoke Welsh on my
Computer Science course). I have worked in a Welsh language youth camp and
for a British multinational. I have friends that are Welsh and speak Welsh,
friends who are Welsh and speak English, English friends and friends who
have moved to Wales from abroad. I now run a business where the customers
are a mix of Welsh language and English language Welsh people, other
British people and foreign tourists. I can honestly say that in my oppinion
Wales is not a divided Nation.
Some people like to stir up trouble, I guess it's the same wherever you go,
but we are a bi-lingual nation, and most people are proud of that fact,
whichever their language of choice. The Welsh language was in decline for
years (maybe even centuries), but now it's making a comeback. It still does
not have equality with English, so people are actively supporting the
language - but that doesn't mean those people are anti English. As in most
multilingual nations, knowledge of both languages is an advantage, in
seeking jobs as in other fields. This is not racist or politically
motivated, there are people in Wales who prefer to speak Welsh, as there
are people who prefer to speak English. Therefore there are some jobs where
it is beneficial to speak Welsh as there are some jobs where it is
beneficial to speak English.
Maybe we should establish a newsgroup called alt.fan.wales for all those
people who love Wales and are proud of her many different aspects.
Personally I like all of Wales and her people, whether they speak Welsh or
not. I believe the Welsh language should receive even more support - but
that is not an attack on the English speaking Welsh people. The English
language in Wales already gets the support I believe the Welsh should have.
So, how about a challenge to everyone who's been arguing so much lately.
Say something good about Wales, without running down any of your
countypeople. Let me start by saying that contrary to our display on this
ng recently we Welsh really are a friendly race. It's great when a couple
of Welsh speaking girls can walk in to the mainly English speaking
Pontypridd rugby club and be made very welcome; or for an English speaking
Welsh person to go with a group of Welsh speakers to the Eisteddfod and to
be totally included in everything.
Gwyneth.
:>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<
:
Dimensiwn 4 - y caffi rhyngrwyd yng Nghaernarfon
- the internet cafe in Caernarfon
http://www.dimensiwn4.co.uk
Gwasanaeth Rhyngrwyd GWYNEDD Internet Services
http://www.gwynedd.net
Nigel Evans
In article <01bd3337$c6a40de0$34a6...@dim4-2.dimensiwn4.co.uk>, Gwyneth
Ellis <gwy...@dimensiwn4.co.uk> writes
>Isn't it a shame that we Welsh have to argue and bicker like this in front
>of the whole world? In my oppinion we're not a divided nation.
I would have thought that it was painfully obvious that we
are a divided nation. One could argue that we are split four ways. But,
two will do for the sake of the argument.
>Some people like to stir up trouble, I guess it's the same wherever you go,
>but we are a bi-lingual nation, and most people are proud of that fact,
>whichever their language of choice.
Some people like to debate. Some like only to hear their
own views.
> The Welsh language was in decline for
>years (maybe even centuries), but now it's making a comeback. It still does
>not have equality with English, so people are actively supporting the
>language - but that doesn't mean those people are anti English. As in most
>multilingual nations, knowledge of both languages is an advantage, in
>seeking jobs as in other fields. This is not racist or politically
>motivated, there are people in Wales who prefer to speak Welsh, as there
>are people who prefer to speak English. Therefore there are some jobs where
>it is beneficial to speak Welsh as there are some jobs where it is
>beneficial to speak English.
I agree that tle language should not be used to
discriminate against people. But, sadly, it is. You do not accept this
as a possibility.
>Maybe we should establish a newsgroup called alt.fan.wales for all those
>people who love Wales and are proud of her many different aspects.
Are you saying that people who do not agree with your
viewpoint do not "love Wales" ? Do you want to pretend that all is well
in our nation ?
>Personally I like all of Wales and her people, whether they speak Welsh or
>not.
You don't like me.
> I believe the Welsh language should receive even more support - but
>that is not an attack on the English speaking Welsh people. The English
>language in Wales already gets the support I believe the Welsh should have.
I am in favour of supporting the language. I do not
want to see people bullied into learning it.
>So, how about a challenge to everyone who's been arguing so much lately.
>Say something good about Wales, without running down any of your
>countypeople. Let me start by saying that contrary to our display on this
>ng recently we Welsh really are a friendly race.
Am I to accept your e-mail to me as indication of our
nation's friendliness ? I am an honourable man and so will not publish
it. I mention it now only as evidence of rebuttal.
--
Nigel Evans
JasCJones
>I guess I'm getting a bad feeling here Nigel - no Welsh Assembly because of
>the danger of corruption; no speaking Welsh in front of an English resident
>for fear of giving offence. My goodness, what next - no rugby because it
>might involve physical contact? No beer because it might contain alcohol?
>The mind boggles!
>David Davies
I can tolerate everything but the "No Rugby!" Are you mad?
- James
JasC...@aol.com
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Gwyneth:
>Wales is not a divided Nation.
>Some people like to stir up trouble, I guess it's the same wherever you go,
>but we are a bi-lingual nation, and most people are proud of that fact,
>whichever their language of choice. The Welsh language was in decline for
>years (maybe even centuries), but now it's making a comeback.
Thank you Gwyneth, I think you make your point very well. I'm sure Nigel can
find something to disagree with, but Nigel and his kind, although they think
they're the majority and they think everyone thinks like them, are becoming
part of the past.
The people, like him, who also like to stir up trouble are a certain ilk of a
certain generation, and in 30 or 40 years most of them will be dead. And
hopefully in 30 or 40 years the understanding about which you speak will have
embraced an even wider audience within Wales. And hopefully in 30 or 40 years,
the Welsh language will have pushed back the threshold even further, and
hopefully it will be Welsh people who turn away from *la politique nigelienne*
and choose the language for themselves and their children.
It is the Wales that you speak of that I have experienced, and it is the one
which I hope will prevail, and not the pessimistic, cheap means to the quickest
end Wales which Nigel and his crew seem to represent. And as you have pointed
out, I don't think that any of this is by default a North-South thing or even a
Welsh - English issue. There are plenty of "Nigels" who have grown up Welsh
speaking. It's in part a generational mindset the spiral of which will someday
unwind.
Hwyl,
Robert
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel:
> You don't like me.
Well, if she doesn't, could you blame her? You're my petunia and I don't like
you either, I mean I feel like letting the slugs have their wicked wicked way
with you. However it is fun to spar with you, so here's some Miracle Grow,
maybe you can expand your root base, and thus your horizons.
Hwyl,
Robert
"I won't give to the poor once a month at your tumballas, I'll simply take
control as, you disappear..."
Eva Duarte de Peron
(as interpreted by Tim Rice)
Nigel Evans
In article <19980206145...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, DaviesJL
<davi...@aol.com> writes
>I have to admit that the above comes as a disappointment to me, even if not as
>a total surprise. I haven't seen the post with the reason, so I won't say any
>more for the time being.
I'm surprised that you were not surprised. It came as a
surprise to me. After attending religiously for thirteen weeks, I found
that I could not attend four successive classes due to pressure of work.
This coupled with a prolonged Christmas break makes it impractical to
return.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <19980207042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>The people, like him, who also like to stir up trouble are a certain ilk of a
>certain generation, and in 30 or 40 years most of them will be dead.
I hope that you are wrong. I don't want to live for
another thirty years. Certainly, not forty.
> And
>hopefully in 30 or 40 years the understanding about which you speak will have
>embraced an even wider audience within Wales. And hopefully in 30 or 40 years,
>the Welsh language will have pushed back the threshold even further, and
>hopefully it will be Welsh people who turn away from *la politique nigelienne*
>and choose the language for themselves and their children.
I cannot understand why this "hopefully" stuff is coming
from. I want other more important things for Wales. My dreams would be
for better health care, education and greater opportunities for all
Welsh people. The language is almost an irrelevance in a deprived
community such as mine. No, I hope for lots of things that would be
better for people than learning a language.
>It is the Wales that you speak of that I have experienced, and it is the one
>which I hope will prevail, and not the pessimistic, cheap means to the quickest
>end Wales which Nigel and his crew seem to represent. And as you have pointed
>out, I don't think that any of this is by default a North-South thing or even a
>Welsh - English issue. There are plenty of "Nigels" who have grown up Welsh
>speaking. It's in part a generational mindset the spiral of which will someday
>unwind.
So, the truth is that you have no experience of Wales. I
don't suppose you've ever driven up the hill to Penrhys in the winter
have you. It's colder than Snowdon. Few would be moved to write poems
about it. Or the Gurnos ? Have you been there ? I'll be driving through
it in half an hour. Not a lot of penillion singing to be heard in these
parts, I'm afraid.
The economic truth is that the Wales you know is hanging on
by a thread. My view of Wales is one of great pessimism. Partly due to
its present condition but mostly due to my inability to see any way
forward. The "crumby" assembly is just a smokescreen. I will not improve
my Wales.
--
Nigel Evans
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
> Ian and Jo Jeremiah <iana...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> ( Can anyone supply the last three verses, in Welsh (hopefully), of the
> poem,
> ) Nant y mynydd, please? I can only remember the first verse ....
Diolch yn fawr iawn, Geraint, am y geiriau.
Join sheep! ;-))
Bob Bamford
> My view of Wales is one of great pessimism. Partly due to
> its present condition but mostly due to my inability to see any way
> forward. The "crumby" assembly is just a smokescreen. I will not
> improve
> my Wales.
>
This is a depressing image. Have you any acceptable suggestions
regarding policies that can be implemented to change this situation? The
British Parliament being the body responsible for the government of the
country (UK), is where the responsibility for dealing with the ecomomic
viability of areas of the UK lies, therefore any suggestions on how to
solve local problems being raised there I'm sure would get the attention
that body determines worthy of the significance of the area concerned.
There's democracy at work, It's easy!
Best of luck
Bob Bamford
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <6bd7dq$126$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>, sgrifenws Adrian Jones
<Adrian...@BTInternet.com>:
>1. Nigel is from South Wales, and doesn't speak Welsh.
>2. Nearly everybody else is from North Wales and does.
Actually, there are a lot of people from South Wales, North America and
elsewhere here as well. Many of us speak Welsh, many do not.
Some of us are even from roughly the same area as Nigel, living in
similar communites with similar problems, even raised as monoglot
English speakers, but do not share his views. So this isn't a north v.
south thing; it's a Nigel v. everyone else thing (opinion-wise, anyway).
--
Barry Taylor
"Dyfal donc a dyr y llaw" :o)
http://www.gwenhwys.demon.co.uk/
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <JIkrbBAY...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
>>One thing perhaps I should make clear after reading my comments again: I
>>don't advocate _forcing_ anybody to learn Welsh. However, in the
>>circumstances mentioned above, a person who didn't speak Welsh would be
>>less likely to fit in, or even get the job in the first place. I would
>>certainly _encourage_ that person to learn Welsh.
>
> Why wouldn't they "get the job in the first place" ?
>Because they would be treated unfairly because they did not speak Welsh,
>that's why !
Not at all. If speaking Welsh is a highly desirable skill for the post
(and it would be in NW Wales, where the original poster was inquiring
about), then it is not discrimination to refuse the job to a non-Welsh
speaker in favour of a bilingual person. It is simply matching the
skills to the job.
>And, that is wrong ! You have no right to "encourage" them
>to learn Welsh.
Actually, I do have that right. Just as they would have the right not
to take my advice.
>You are advocating "bully boy tactics". The really sad
>thing is that you cannot see this for yourself. You're so blinded by
>your support of the language that all other values go "out of the
>window".
Wrong, I'm afraid. Of course I support the language, but not to the
exclusion of other, more important, values. I'm just more vocal about
that than anything else on this NG because the language is discussed so
much here.
>People must be free to live their lives without being
>"encouraged" to comply with your personal wishes.
So should a doctor be free to practice without being encouraged to study
medicine? An extreme example, I know - but the same principle applies.
If someone wants to work in a majority Welsh-speaking community, then
speaking Welsh is a distinct advantage.
>>>> If all around you are speaking Welsh,you will be at a disadvantage if you
>>>> speak only English. If that's a problem, then the person concerned could
>>>> always earn a living somewhere else.
>
> This was an awful thing to say. Are you that heartless
>and so uncaring for your fellow man ? Don't you think that people should
>be free to work without being discriminated against on any grounds ?
Who's being heartless and uncaring? I wasn't running anybody down here,
so I think you must have misinterpreted me.
If a person does not meet the criteria which would be desirable for a
certain job and is either unwilling or unable to acquire the necessary
skills to meeth those criteria, then that person would be better off
seeking work in another field. What is so awful about that? It just
sounds like reality to me.
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <TJA9bQAJ...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <na.e4d19e4813....@argonet.co.uk>, Ian and Jo
>Jeremiah <iana...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>
>>I can see both sides of the coin -- why should they have turned to English
>>when speaking Welsh was what they were used to -- but I'll always remember
>>the misery I felt on that first day.
>
> Thank you for your comments. They have injected a huge
>dose of realism into the debate. Your story is very sad. I am sure that
>your comments will draw few follow-ups from the majority on this group.
>They will not like what you have said. They will regard you as being
>perverse. I will not matter to them that you have said the truth. They
>will ignore you and hope that you will go away. You are an embarrassment
>to them.
I assume I'm one of the "majority" you're talking about. Well, I don't
think Jo is being perverse, nor do I dislike what she has said or try to
ignore it. I've been in similar situations myself, so I understand what
it's like. No, it isn't a pleasant experience. However, those
situations just strengthened my resolve to learn the language, so they
have had a positive effect on me in that sense.
Nigel Evans
In article <K2kmXTAR...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>Some of us are even from roughly the same area as Nigel, living in
>similar communites with similar problems, even raised as monoglot
>English speakers, but do not share his views. So this isn't a north v.
>south thing; it's a Nigel v. everyone else thing (opinion-wise, anyway).
I would remind you that only one person in four in Wales
voted for the referendum. A very similar number voted against it. Twice
this number didn't vote at all. So, how the hell can you say that my
views are unique ? You continue to ignore the views of large numbers of
people.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <f27jnYAt...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>I assume I'm one of the "majority" you're talking about. Well, I don't
>think Jo is being perverse, nor do I dislike what she has said or try to
>ignore it. I've been in similar situations myself, so I understand what
>it's like. No, it isn't a pleasant experience. However, those
>situations just strengthened my resolve to learn the language, so they
>have had a positive effect on me in that sense.
Yes, indeed you are ! Whilst I am heartened to see that
you have accepted this lady's story as being true, I am still saddened
that your reaction is no as intense as my own. I, too, have experienced
similar things. Vast numbers of people have suffered similarly. This is
why I have maintained, at all times, that those who seek to promote the
language should so so with tact. By actions such as these the so-called
"supporters" have succeeded in alienating vast numbers of Valley people.
They are simply too dull to see this for themselves. They blame
everybody and anybody they can for the decline of the language when the
truth is that they are the ones to blame !
I repeat, probably for the thousandth time, that the
language must be sold to the people as something which is worthwhile of
itself. Remove all hints of animosity, threats and discrimination and
the language will grow. Continue in an agressive manner and the backlash
will gain momentum. The "supporters" will push it to extinction.
--
Nigel Evans
Adam Rykala
Nigel Evans wrote:
This is unfair. Do you know Quebec from personal experience. I don't
but have been given all the necessary information by friends who live there now and
friends who, having lived there once,
> have now returned. Quebec is nothing like any part of Wales. It is
> virtually a separate country. It has its own traditions and it is
> different to Wales in that there are few divisions within it. We are
> totally unlike Quebec because there are people like me, in their
> hundreds of thousands, who do not want a separate state. The vast
> majority of people who live in Quebec are united in their aims. We are
> not. I'm not going to change my views. The others aren't going to change
> either. So, you'd better get used to the idea that there will be no
> independence. Quebec is different !
>
> Nigel Evans
I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating ...
But in all serious, are you really proud you oppose it.......
And no-one can truly say there will NOT be independence....!
Strange thing is Nigel, you simultaenously claim to speak solely for yourself, and
for this large "group" who no-one else knows or sees....
And you also claim you are not abusive, which is complete BS...several people on
scw can testify to that.
Before you moan on about bullish nationalists, take some time to look at the
bullish unionist in the mirror one day!
Adam
--
"Wheel's within wheels in a spiral array,
A pattern so grand and complex,
Time after time we lose sight of the way,
Our causes can't see their effects."
Adam Rykala
Nigel Evans wrote:
> In article <6bc9gp$k44$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Illtud Daniel
> <ida...@jesus.ox.ac.uk> writes
>
> >Your ignorance of Wales is betrayed by your every post, Nigel bach.
> >Ignorance is your bane, coupled with a rather useless pride which
> >keeps you ignorant.
>
> I cannot comment on your opinions as it seems that you
> have never expressed any. You seem content to criticise those who voice
> their opinions without risking criticism of your own.
As anyone else noticeds Nigels first starting comment most of the time is
the above..."You have no opinions"....as if the poor rest of us merely play
with words. Intellectual snobbery now!
> So far I have learned from you that you disagree with
> things that I say. I have learned that I am "ignorant". I don't think I
> am "ignorant". Let's face it even if I am incredibly stupid the chances
> are that I have learned something by living in Wales as long as I have.
I feel sorry for you Nigel, put on by so many ignorant people you have to
play down your own naturally superior intelligence....
> I am not going to call you "ignorant". You are, however,
> rude. And, I repeat you appear to be void of any opinions. If you're not
> then you might like to explain why, in over two years, you have failed
> to express any. ( Whilst I'm at it these comments could be just as well
> directed as the "Granite" chap from Oxford and the bloke in Switzerland.
> They never say anything which remotely approaches an opinion. They only
> criticise others. Well, let's be honest, they criticise me. I'd love to
> hear their views. Perhaps, they haven't got any. Have you considered
> forming a newsgroup especially for people who do not have opinions ? It
> could be great fun ! )
> --
So let me get right right here Nigel, we are wrong for holding nationalistic
views (for which you criticised me once for being a "sheep" - which hence
means anyone who agrees with anyone else is also) and we hold no views at
all....?
Work that one out!
Adam Rykala
Nigel Evans wrote:
> I am not poor because I have worked hard. I think other
> people should do the same.
> --
> Nigel Evans
OOOHHHHH! we are POOR ignorant savages now, but if we're poor, how come we have this
Internet thingy when so many other people (the ones who hold your view remember)
don't. Are they Poor?
Snobbery is your characteristic trademark!
Nigel Evans
In article <34DCBD86...@global.net.au>, Bob Bamford
<bam...@global.net.au> writes
>
>This is a depressing image. Have you any acceptable suggestions
>regarding policies that can be implemented to change this situation? The
>British Parliament being the body responsible for the government of the
>country (UK), is where the responsibility for dealing with the ecomomic
>viability of areas of the UK lies, therefore any suggestions on how to
>solve local problems being raised there I'm sure would get the attention
>that body determines worthy of the significance of the area concerned.
>There's democracy at work, It's easy!
It's very depressing ! Sadly, Wales is not on its own.
There are very large areas of England which are experiencing similar
problems. The "easy answer" is to criticise the "wicked English" at
Westminster. Too many contributors to this group try to give the
impression that the English are selfish and that the Westminster
Parliament looks after them whilst doing all it can to hurt the Welsh.
This simply isn't true.
The problems of Wales can only be solved by increased
prosperity for all in the UK. It is futile to pretend that Wales can
survive alone. We need the English and they need us.
I am very interested in Far East politics and economics.
The present turmoil in the Eastern ( Tiger ) economies is certain to
have grave affects on all countries. In my home town of Merthyr Tydfil
we have already suffered a major blow by the loss of jobs at the Hallah
forklift truck firm. It opened only last year and those who joined it
thought that they would have employment for years to come. Some of my
friends are amongst those made unemployed. The Westminster government,
it happened to be "Conservative" at the time, did nothing other than
help Wales by getting this factory to open. Nobody can now blame the
present Labour government for the job losses. It isn't a "party
political" thing. It's all down to economics.
Our stockmarket continues to rise at an amazing rate. I
am at a loss to understand why this should be happening. It's true that
a recent deep recession has ended but nothing has happened to account
for such rises in the values of shares. I am pessimistic and believe
that those who want an assembly are blind to the real problems facing
us.
Thank your wishes for "good luck". They are reciprocated
for, if my fears are proved to be justified, the economy is Australia
may well suffer before our own.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <34DDAA2F...@virgin.net>, Adam Rykala
<adam....@virgin.net> writes
>Snobbery is your characteristic trademark!
I am sorry but I do not understand you. I was replying
to a remark in which I was referred to as "poor".
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <34DDA9BE...@virgin.net>, Adam Rykala
<adam....@virgin.net> writes
>Work that one out!
I'm willing to try but, again, I do not understand you. What
are you trying to say, please ?
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <34DDA8ED...@virgin.net>, Adam Rykala
<adam....@virgin.net> writes
>Before you moan on about bullish nationalists, take some time to look at the
>bullish unionist in the mirror one day!
And, your point is ?
--
Nigel Evans
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <2ScEdPA+$Y30...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <K2kmXTAR...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
><ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>Some of us are even from roughly the same area as Nigel, living in
>>similar communites with similar problems, even raised as monoglot
>>English speakers, but do not share his views. So this isn't a north v.
>>south thing; it's a Nigel v. everyone else thing (opinion-wise, anyway).
>
> I would remind you that only one person in four in Wales
>voted for the referendum. A very similar number voted against it. Twice
>this number didn't vote at all. So, how the hell can you say that my
>views are unique ? You continue to ignore the views of large numbers of
>people.
Not at all, Nigel. If I was referring only to your views on the
Assembly, then you would be right. But I'm referring to your overall
political outlook.
If so many people agree with you, then where exactly are they? I don't
see many of them here (I know, we nasty nationalists have scared them
off....).
My point was that not everybody in the valleys thinks like you do. I
very much doubt you can claim otherwise.
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <GTbYtSAi...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
> Yes, indeed you are ! Whilst I am heartened to see that
>you have accepted this lady's story as being true, I am still saddened
>that your reaction is no as intense as my own. I, too, have experienced
I think the word "suffer" is a bit extreme. "Awkwardness" would be
nearer the mark. I have been in similar situations in many other
nations besides Wales - many people in Romania, for example, speak
English or German to some degree, but they still insisted on talking in
Romanian when I was there, except when directly addressing me or my
colleagues. That's because when I was in Romania, I was the visitor
into their culture, where Romanian was the dominant language. Learning
a few words and phrases of Romanian, in the limited time I was there,
made things a lot easier.
In parts of Wales where Welsh is the dominant language, the situation is
somewhat similar. Most of the people there may well speak English to
some degree, but it's not their natural language and not all are
confident speaking it. Thus it makes sense for monoglot English
speakers who find themselves living and working in these places to learn
at least basic Welsh.
>This is
>why I have maintained, at all times, that those who seek to promote the
>language should so so with tact.
But the situation we've been discussing isn't primarily about promoting
the language - it's about people moving into and working in areas where
the language is still the dominant language used, so it's more about
necessity than promotion.
>By actions such as these the so-called
>"supporters" have succeeded in alienating vast numbers of Valley people.
Actions such as what, exactly? Speaking Welsh perfectly naturally with
their Welsh-speaking friends and acquaintances without checking first
that there aren't any English monoglots nearby? I don't see anything
wrong with that. After all, your average English language monoglot
wouldn't check to make sure there were no Welsh-speakers around before
having a conversation in English, so why shouldn't it work the other way
around too? (And no, not all Welsh speakers speak English fluently.
Most, maybe, but not all by any means.)
>They are simply too dull to see this for themselves.
Dullness isn't the sole property of Welsh speakers, Nigel.
>They blame
>everybody and anybody they can for the decline of the language when the
>truth is that they are the ones to blame !
What has the decline of the language got to do with the present
discussion? We're talking about an area where it is the main language!
> I repeat, probably for the thousandth time, that the
>language must be sold to the people as something which is worthwhile of
>itself.
Why sell it at all? It's not a commercial commodity, you know.
>Remove all hints of animosity, threats and discrimination and
>the language will grow.
Fine - but do that on _both_ sides.
>Continue in an agressive manner and the backlash
>will gain momentum. The "supporters" will push it to extinction.
On the other hand, continue in a passive manner and the language will be
pushed to extinction anyway. I'd rather be active, thanks. Note:
"active", not "aggressive". The two aren't necessarily the same.
Nigel Evans
In article <bLzyoSAO...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>If so many people agree with you, then where exactly are they? I don't
>see many of them here (I know, we nasty nationalists have scared them
>off....).
Yes, you have ! Is that something for you to be proud
of ? I think not.
--
Nigel Evans
Nigel Evans
In article <VrZxAUAk...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>Yn erthygl <GTbYtSAi...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
>Actions such as what, exactly? Speaking Welsh perfectly naturally with
>their Welsh-speaking friends and acquaintances without checking first
>that there aren't any English monoglots nearby? I don't see anything
>wrong with that. After all, your average English language monoglot
>wouldn't check to make sure there were no Welsh-speakers around before
>having a conversation in English, so why shouldn't it work the other way
>around too? (And no, not all Welsh speakers speak English fluently.
>Most, maybe, but not all by any means.)
No. Come off it, Barry, you know perfectly well that I
am talking about those occasions when Welsh speakers deliberately speak
Welsh so as to be rude ! I'm not talking about the casual use of one's
mother tongue. I am talking about those who are essentially pig-ignorant
and use the language to push people away. It's happened to me dozens of
times in North Wales. My South Wales accent is easily detected and
people previously speaking English switch to Welsh. This not paranoia on
my part. I'm saying the truth.
>What has the decline of the language got to do with the present
>discussion? We're talking about an area where it is the main language!
It isn't the main language ! True you'll find some towns
and villages where it is, I agree. But to say that Welsh is the majority
language of North Wales is untrue.
>Why sell it at all? It's not a commercial commodity, you know.
If you want it to survive you wil have to "sell" it. It
will die otherwise.
>Fine - but do that on _both_ sides.
Do you know of anybody who is actively involved in
working against the language ? I don't. So, what is this other "side" ?
>On the other hand, continue in a passive manner and the language will be
>pushed to extinction anyway. I'd rather be active, thanks. Note:
>"active", not "aggressive". The two aren't necessarily the same.
No, you so terribly wrong ! People in the valleys tend
to be against the language because of the antics of its so-called
supporters. The terrible bunch, "The Welsh Language Society" have done
more harm to the image of the language than any Englishman could do.
"Active" is fine. "Aggressive" is counterproductive. Now, tell me,
honestly, were the people who controlled this group at its inception
"active" or "aggressive" ? I have no doubts they were as ignorant and
aggressive as the people I refer to in the paragraph above. Many of them
seem to have disappeared. Not before time. I think I can now guarantee
that anybody entering this group will be welcome from now on. They will
not have to put up with mass criticism from the "clique" if they express
views which do not please.
Don't you think it would be nice if people could express
their views freely here ? Of course you do. Perhaps we have reached the
stage where this will now be possible. Wales will have a newsgroup for
all, and not for a select few.
--
Nigel Evans
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel bach:
> >Barry Taylor: I don't
>>see many of them here (I know, we nasty nationalists have scared them
>>off....).
>
> Yes, you have ! Is that something for you to be proud
>of ? I think not.
Well, if they actually we're scared off by nationalists, I'd personally take
that as point of pride. However, given the extremely timid nature of Welsh
nationalists in general and in specifics the ones who hang out here, I rather
doubt it this scenario. More likely, your cohorts never really existed in the
first place.
Hwyl,
Robert
"Mais ou est Dieu?" - Orphee
"Il existe partout, et nulle part, il y a des gens qui disent que nous ne
sommes que ses reves... ses mauvais reves"
- la Mort d'Orphee
- Jean Cocteau's Orphee
RJones6901
Sgwennodd Nigel bach:
>Barry, you know perfectly well that I
>am talking about those occasions when Welsh speakers deliberately speak
>Welsh so as to be rude ! I'm not talking about the casual use of one's
>mother tongue.
Well, you did say everyone keeps calling you dickhead a few posts back. Maybe
you got it written on your forehead orsomething and they just figger it's
better to code switch and avoid you all together!
But seriously Nigel baby, if people want to be rude to you, that's their
business, right? I mean, I know I'd be rude to you given the chance.
But even more seriously, if folks are having a private conversation and you're
not part of it, and they don't want you to know what they're talking about,
then if they switch, to goddam bad. Then that's really non of your business.
And even more seriously yet, the fact that Welsh people no longer feel
compelled to switch to English because "Whitey's" around says for the first
time in generations they're feeling empowered. They're finding their voice,
and they're using it, and they don't care if they piss off old people like your
own Anglo self.
>I am talking about those who are essentially pig-ignorant
>and use the language to push people away.
Well, I'd use anything I could to push you away, and I've been trying for so
long that now if I actually succeeded I'd miss our little tete-a-tetes. I
think you're just too self conscious. I think therapy could help you. You said
before that you didn't expect to live another 30 or 40 years. So, what does
that make you about 50 or 60? Hey Nigely honey, it's never too late to learn a
new trick.
>I'm saying the truth.
>
La verite selon Nigel Evans: un traitement nigilien sur la notion
epistemologique de la verite. Aussi sous titre de: Les cons et leure
conneries.
>It isn't the main language ! True you'll find some towns
>and villages where it is, I agree. But to say that Welsh is the majority
>language of North Wales is untrue.
Oh, just give up Nigel, admit defeat and save your self the embarassement of
being wrong *again*. I already posted the numbers for NW Wales, the locality
of the original question. Would you please stop beat a dead horse???!!!
You've been doing it so long the maggots are started to get swatted all over
the goddam place.
>Perhaps we have reached the
>stage where this will now be possible. Wales will have a newsgroup for
>all, and not for a select few.
Yes, Nigel, we have, now go gather your descamisados and fly some banners and
banish anyone who stands in your way. Oh wait, that's what you accuse us of
doing! Doh! Well you just lead the parade and we'll vote for you, a NEW SCW
for everyone...
Hwyl,
Robert
Ian and Jo Jeremiah
In article <2747920524000...@comlab.oxford.ac.uk>,
Gerain...@wolfson.oxford.ac.uk (Geraint Jones) wrote:
> )) Join sheep! ;-))
>
> "Whatever you do, don't call the bleeders /sheep/." (Henry
> Reed)
Oops! I think that must have been a Freudian slip.
Sion H Jeep was very impressed with your Multiple Anagram Syndrome posting
and got carried away. ;-)
BTW, she's been driving me mad singing Nant y Mynydd all weekend! :-(
Ian
--
___ _|______________________:_ __________________________
\___|___Glas y Dorlan________|____ /
|________________________________/ / Ian and Josephine Jeremiah
Nigel Evans
In article <19980208195...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, RJones6901
<rjone...@aol.com> writes
>But seriously Nigel baby, if people want to be rude to you, that's their
>business, right? I mean, I know I'd be rude to you given the chance.
Sorry, Robert , but you've lost it ! "Petunia", "baby",
what next ? You're just another silly Yank with an identity crisis. I'm
Welsh and I've got to make the best of it. No messing around for me.
This thing is for real. I walk down streets which are just crammed with
Welsh people. I'm on their side. I'll do anything I can to help them. I
won't help them by living in an imaginary land. There's no "Merlin the
Magician" in my town. No "King Arthur" either. You can be rude all you
like. You're an irrelevance. To me, and to Wales.
--
Nigel Evans
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <FEpoIGAr...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <bLzyoSAO...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
><ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>If so many people agree with you, then where exactly are they? I don't
>>see many of them here (I know, we nasty nationalists have scared them
>>off....).
>
> Yes, you have ! Is that something for you to be proud
>of ? I think not.
I don't agree that this has happened. You are just as vocal as the rest
of us, and often more so. I think people are more likely to be scared
off by the arguments between the two camps than by either the nashis or
the Brit Welsh alone.
Barry Taylor
Yn erthygl <q0YjUKAs...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>, sgrifenws Nigel Evans
<ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk>:
> No. Come off it, Barry, you know perfectly well that I
>am talking about those occasions when Welsh speakers deliberately speak
>Welsh so as to be rude ! I'm not talking about the casual use of one's
>and use the language to push people away. It's happened to me dozens of
>times in North Wales. My South Wales accent is easily detected and
>people previously speaking English switch to Welsh. This not paranoia on
Fair enough, but this isn't an exclusively Welsh problem. It happens
the world over, so it's pretty safe to assume it's a fact of life. Not
a pleasant one, perhaps, but still a fact of life. And in my own
experience, most Welsh speakers aren't like that in any case. I've
never come across a situation where Welsh has been deliberately used to
exclude non-Welsh speakers, though I'm not doubting that it happens
occasionally.
>>What has the decline of the language got to do with the present
>>discussion? We're talking about an area where it is the main language!
>
> It isn't the main language ! True you'll find some towns
>and villages where it is, I agree. But to say that Welsh is the majority
>language of North Wales is untrue.
That's a different issue, which I won't get into at the moment.
However, I wasn't referring to all of North Wales, but a Welsh speaking
community in Gwynedd which was, I believe, the original setting for this
thread.
>>Fine - but do that on _both_ sides.
>
> Do you know of anybody who is actively involved in
>working against the language ? I don't. So, what is this other "side" ?
Monoglot English speakers who move into majority Welsh speaking areas
and refuse to learn Welsh, for starters. I'm sure others could make
more suggestions.
>>On the other hand, continue in a passive manner and the language will be
>>pushed to extinction anyway. I'd rather be active, thanks. Note:
>>"active", not "aggressive". The two aren't necessarily the same.
>
> No, you so terribly wrong ! People in the valleys tend
>to be against the language
Not all of us, Nigel. There are plenty who support the language, as
evidenced by the popularity of Welsh medium schools in the valleys.
>because of the antics of its so-called
>supporters. The terrible bunch, "The Welsh Language Society" have done
>more harm to the image of the language than any Englishman could do.
They've done much to raise the profile of the Welsh language cause.
>"Active" is fine. "Aggressive" is counterproductive. Now, tell me,
>honestly, were the people who controlled this group at its inception
>"active" or "aggressive" ?
Active. I've yet to hear of Cymdeithas yr iaith advocating agression or
violence.
>I have no doubts they were as ignorant and
>aggressive as the people I refer to in the paragraph above.
Here we go again: they have a different ideology to you, so they must be
ignorant. Sorry, but as a former member I don't share your assessment
of their mental ability.
>Many of them
>seem to have disappeared. Not before time. I think I can now guarantee
>that anybody entering this group will be welcome from now on. They will
>not have to put up with mass criticism from the "clique" if they express
>views which do not please.
Whatever people's views are, they will inevitably face criticism from
people who have different views. That's life, and don't forget that you
can be particularly scathing in your criticism yourself.
> Don't you think it would be nice if people could express
>their views freely here ? Of course you do.
We agree on this, at least. But don't just blame the nationalists for
jumping on people of the opposite viewpoint. There has been plenty of
that going on here from the other camp as well. You and Andy seem to be
particularly good at it. What's good for the goose is good for the
gander, as they say, and if you want others to stop "jumping" on people,
then maybe you should practise what you preach as well. If we all did
that, this would be a much nicer forum.
Andy
In article <VTax+IAo...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk>, Barry Taylor
<ba...@gwenhwys.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Many of them
>>seem to have disappeared. Not before time. I think I can now guarantee
>>that anybody entering this group will be welcome from now on. They will
>>not have to put up with mass criticism from the "clique" if they express
>>views which do not please.
>
>Whatever people's views are, they will inevitably face criticism from
>people who have different views. That's life, and don't forget that you
>can be particularly scathing in your criticism yourself.
But the point is here Barry. Nigel reads all posts not just the ones he
agrees with I think you and I do. But there has been talk of some of the
group putting people in their kill files. This attitude
I can't abide.
>
>> Don't you think it would be nice if people could express
>>their views freely here ? Of course you do.
>
>We agree on this, at least. But don't just blame the nationalists for
>jumping on people of the opposite viewpoint. There has been plenty of
>that going on here from the other camp as well. You and Andy seem to be
>particularly good at it. What's good for the goose is good for the
>gander, as they say, and if you want others to stop "jumping" on people,
>then maybe you should practise what you preach as well. If we all did
>that, this would be a much nicer forum.
It's always going to happen with political discussions, but Barry some
people can give and take it, and others can only give it! (I'm not
referring to you here by the way)
--
Andy
(Will we ever have that pint?)
RJones6901
Sgwennodd fy Nigel bach...
> I'm on their side. I'll do anything I can to help them.
Calling for the descamisados again, my petunia? And who will call on when your
junta collapses? You are so full of it and we all know it. You won't do
anything for your fellow countrymen unless they comply with your twisted little
view of Wales.
>You're an irrelevance. To me, and to Wales.
(LOL) Yes, I most certainly am. You are a real card. Of course I'm somewhat
more relevant in my own circles ( of revelance here, the local Welsh societies,
to my Welsh classes, my church) . To you, I might be "another Yanks with an
identity crisis", but my goal is not to be respected by you. My relevance to
Wales, well that's a deep philosophical question. On one level I'm probably
more revelant than you, but most of us Yanks with an identity crisis who work
in affairs Welsh probably are as well. Most of us Yankee Welsh have more
direct connections to the "big names" in Wales than the average Welsh person
does.
However in the greater scheme of things, one Welsh person, Welsh born or born
in the diaspora, can only have as much relevance as later generations will
accord them. I rather doubt that either of us will be accorded my relevance,
but I go to my grave knowing that I worked for the Welsh language and the Welsh
people in the ways I was able. I wonder, my pet, can you say the same.
And as for my identity crisis, well, think what you like, but for the record I
am very proud of my dual heritage, as a Welsh American and a Pennsylvania
Dutchman. I know who I am from whence I come.
Bendithion
(You need'em Nigel)
Robert
MH Roberts
Nigel Evans, verily, spake unto this newsgroup:
) After attending religiously for thirteen weeks, I found
) that I could not attend four successive classes due to pressure of work.
) This coupled with a prolonged Christmas break makes it impractical to
) return.
That's fair enough - and fair play to you for sticking it out that long!
Just out of curiosity, how well do you feel you progressed having had 13
lessons? Do you think you coul hold a basic conversation in Welsh with
someone?
Mel Roberts.
--
George: Tally-ho pip-pip and Bernard's your uncle.
Blackadder: In English we say, "Good Morning".
MH Roberts
Nigel Evans, verily, spake unto this newsgroup:
) I would remind you that only one person in four in Wales
) voted for the referendum. A very similar number voted against it.
Almost, Nigel! Now repeat after me, I'll go slowly for you:
"a S..M..A..L..L..E..R number voted against it".
You are getting closer, though, in all fairness.