The Talmud on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism
coaster132000
A Documented Exposé of Jewish racist Hate Literature
By Michael Hoffman, foremost scholar of Judaism in the English-
speaking world
Copyright ©2000-2006 by Michael A. Hoffman II All Rights Reserved
Introduction
The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books).
Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism.
Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b
(Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the
words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."
The supremacy of the Talmud over the Bible in the Israeli state may
also be seen in the case of the black Ethiopian Jews. Ethiopians are
very knowledgeable of the Old Testament. However, their religion is so
ancient it pre-dates the Scribes' Talmud, of which the Ethiopians have
no knowledge. According to the N.Y. Times of Sept. 29, 1992, p.4:
"The problem is that Ethiopian Jewish tradition goes no further than
the Bible or Torah; the later Talmud and other commentaries that form
the basis of modern traditions never came their way."
Because they are not traffickers in Talmudic tradition, the black
Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against and have been forbidden by
the Zionists to perform marriages, funerals and other services in the
Israeli state.
Rabbi Joseph D. Soloveitchik is regarded as one of the most
influential rabbis of the 20th century, the "unchallenged leader" of
Orthodox Judaism and the top international authority on halakha
(Jewish religious law). Soloveitchik was responsible for instructing
and ordaining more than 2,000 rabbis, "an entire generation" of Jewish
leadership.
N.Y. Times religion reporter Ari Goldman described the basis of the
rabbi's authority:
"Soloveitchik came from a long line of distinguished Talmudic
scholars...Until his early 20s, he devoted himself almost exclusively
to the study of the Talmud...He came to Yeshiva University's Elchanan
Theological Seminary where he remained the pre-eminent teacher in the
Talmud...He held the title of Leib Merkin professor of
Talmud...sitting with his feet crossed in front of a table bearing an
open volume of the Talmud." (N.Y. Times, April 10, 1993, p. 38).
Nowhere does Goldman refer to Soloveitchik's knowledge of the Bible as
the basis for being one of the leading authorities on Jewish law.
The rabbi's credentials are all predicated upon his mastery of the
Talmud. Other studies are clearly secondary. Britain's Jewish
Chronicle of March 26, 1993 states that in religious school (yeshiva),
Jews are "devoted to the Talmud to the exclusion of everything else."
The Talmud Nullifies the Bible
The Jewish Scribes claim the Talmud is partly a collection of
traditions Moses gave them in oral form. These had not yet been
written down in Jesus' time. Christ condemned the traditions of the
Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and
Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy
Bible.
Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points
out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the
Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending:
"Hillel decreed the prozbul for the betterment of the world. The
prozbul is a legal fiction which allows debts to be collected after
the Sabbatical year and it was Hillel's intention thereby to overcome
the fear that money-lenders had of losing their money."
The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that
voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the
Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it,
the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime,
before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one
through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the
Mishnah.
Unfortunately, due to the abysmal ignorance of our day, the widespread
"Judeo-Christian" notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book
of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the
commandments of rabbis, not God.
The Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law, and not the
Bible itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the
laws of God, not uphold them. As students of the Talmud, we know this
to be true.
Jewish scholar Hyam Maccoby, in Judaism on Trial, quotes Rabbi Yehiel
ben Joseph: "Further, without the Talmud, we would not be able to
understand passages in the Bible...God has handed this authority to
the sages and tradition is a necessity as well as scripture. The Sages
also made enactments of their own...anyone who does not study the
Talmud cannot understand Scripture."
There is a tiny Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to eschew
Talmud and adhere to the Old Testament alone. These are the Karaites,
a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely
persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.
To the Mishnah the rabbis later added the Gemara (rabbinical
commentaries). Together these comprise the Talmud. There are two
versions, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud.
The Babylonian Talmud is regarded as the authoritative version: "The
authority of the Babylonian Talmud is also greater than that of the
Jerusalem Talmud. In cases of doubt the former is decisive." (R.C.
Musaph-Andriesse, From Torah to Kabbalah: A Basic Introduction to the
Writings of Judaism, p. 40).
This study is based on the Jewish-authorized Babylonian Talmud. We
have published herein the authenticated sayings of the Jewish Talmud.
Look them up for yourself.
We publish the following irrefutable documentation in the hope of
liberating all people, including Jewish people, from the corrosive
delusions and racism of this Talmudic hate literature, which is the
manual of Orthodox and Hasidic Jews the world over.
The implementation by Jewish supremacists of Talmudic hate literature
has caused untold suffering throughout history and now, in occupied
Palestine, it is used as a justification for the mass murder of
Palestinian civilians. The Talmud specifically defines all who are not
Jews as non-human animals.
Some Teachings of the Jewish Talmud
Where a Jew Should Do Evil
Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city
where he is not known and do the evil there.
Penalty for Disobeying Rabbis
Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be
punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.
Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be
killed.
O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages
owed him for work.
Jews Have Superior Legal Status
Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite
there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an
Israelite...the payment is to be in full."
Jews May Steal from Non-Jews
Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile
("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba
Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his
daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a
lost article to a Cuthean..."
Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will
be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and
God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Jews May Lie to Non-Jews
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a
Gentile.
Non-Jewish Children are Sub-Human
Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from
birth.
Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.
Insults Against Blessed Mary
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the
descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with
carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino
edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it
is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with
many men.
Gloats over Christ Dying Young
A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus
died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is
not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men
shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three
or thirty-four years old."
Jesus in the Talmud:
Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ
While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the
Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus
Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and
admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a
sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish
organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that
Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they
need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.
For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch
group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following
statement, complete with Talmudic citations:
"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the
Nazarene':
1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews
astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers
for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).
2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is
mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and
refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).
3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used
procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly
banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).
End quote from http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm (Lubavitch website)
June 20, 2000.
[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this
statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared
on their website at http://www.noahide.com on June 20, 2000, in the
event that denials are later issued and the statement itself
suppressed].
Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."
Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu
"the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is
taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days
before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death
because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to
idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or
condone."
Kallah 51a."The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young
lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head.
Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a
bastard. Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child
conceived during a woman's menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he
is both a bastard and a son of a niddah.
"They said, 'What induced you to contradict the opinion of your
colleagues?' He replied, "I will prove it concerning him." He went to
the lad's mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.
"He said to her, 'My daughter, if you will answer the question I will
put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.' (eternal life).
She said to him, 'Swear it to me.'
"Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his
heart, said to her, 'What is the status of your son?' She replied,
'When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my
husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and
this son was born to me.' Consequently the child was both a bastard
and the son of a niddah.
"It was declared, '..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His
Secret to Rabbi Akiba..."
In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding
Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who
"uncovered his head" and was conceived in the filth of menstruation).
The boy's adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of
Christ, Blessed Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the
hairdresser, in the Talmud).
"The Editio Princeps of the complete Code of Talmudic Law, Maimonides'
Mishneh Torah -- replete not only with the most offensive precepts
against all Gentiles but also with explicit attacks on Christianity
and on Jesus (after whose name the author adds piously, 'May the name
of the wicked perish')... --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish
Religion, p. 21.
"The Talmud contains a few explicit references to Jesus...These
references are certainly not complimentary...There seems little doubt
that the account of the execution of Jesus on the eve of Passover does
refer to the Christian Jesus...The passage in which Jesus' punishment
in hell is described also seems to refer to the Christian Jesus. It is
a piece of anti-Christian polemic dating from the post-70 CE
period..." --Hyam Maccoby, Judaism on Trial, pp. 26-27.
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical
court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of
rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his
execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the
talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite
seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in
addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very
name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this
popular tradition still persists...
"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an
acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which
is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox
Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus'
and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as
"Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak,
Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.
Talmud Attacks Christians and Christian Books
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the
Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books")
will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the
New Testament.
Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis
burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March
23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).
Sick and Insane Teachings of the Talmud
Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within
the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.
Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy
way is given.
Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the
animals in the Garden of Eden.
Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically,
three years "and a day" old).
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is
less than nine years old.
Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl
it is nothing."
Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to
marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also
eligible to marry a Jewish priest.
Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that
the Talmudic sage Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with. On one of his
whorehouse romps, Rabbi Eleazar leanred that there was one particular
prostitute residing in a whorehouse near the sea, who would receive a
bag of money for her services. He took a bag of money and went to her,
crossing seven rivers to do so. During their intercourse the
prostitute farted. After this the whore told Rabbi Eleazar: "Just as
this gas will never return to my anus, Rabbi Eleazar will never get to
heaven."
Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.
Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the
rabbi won the debate.
Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor
toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited
long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is
with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."
Gittin 69b. To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should
"take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he
can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it
loosens the limbs."
Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass
between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm
trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or
sitting at a crossroads.
Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following
prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman
or a slave.
Tall Tales of a Roman Holocaust
Here are two early "Holocaust" tales from the Talmud: Gittin 57b.
Claims that four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of
Bethar. Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children were wrapped
in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. (Ancient demography
indicates that there were not 16 million Jews in the entire world at
that time, much less 16 million Jewish children or four billion Jews).
A Revealing Admission
Abodah Zarah 70a. The question was asked of the rabbi whether wine
stolen in Pumbeditha might be used or if it was defiled, due to the
fact that the thieves might have been gentiles (a gentile touching
wine would make the wine unclean). The rabbi says not to worry, that
the wine is permissible for Jewish use because the majority of the
thieves in Pumbeditha, the place where the wine was stolen, are Jews.
(Also cf. Gemara Rosh Hashanah 25b).
Pharisaic Rituals
Erubin 21b. "Rabbi Akiba said to him, "Give me some water to wash my
hands."
"It will not suffice for drinking," the other complained, "will it
suffice for washing your hands?"
"What can I do?' the former replied, "when for neglecting the words of
the Rabbis one deserves death? It is better that I myself should die
than that I transgress against the opinion of my colleagues." [This is
the ritual hand washing condemned by Jesus in Matthew 15: 1-9].
Genocide Advocated by the Talmud
Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi
Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the
gentiles should all be killed").
This passage is from the original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as
quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia, published by Funk and Wagnalls
and compiled by Isidore Singer, under the entry, "Gentile," (p. 617).
This original Talmud passage has been concealed in translation. The
Jewish Encyclopedia states that, "...in the various versions the
reading has been altered, 'The best among the Egyptians' being
generally substituted." In the Soncino version: "the best of the
heathens" (Minor Tractates, Soferim 41a-b].
Israelis annually take part in a national pilgrimage to the grave of
Simon ben Yohai, to honor this rabbi who advocated the extermination
of non-Jews. (Jewish Press, June 9, 1989, p. 56B).
On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an
orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians,
including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein
was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS
News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the
Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").
University of Jerusalem Prof. Ehud Sprinzak described Kahane and
Goldstein's philosophy: "They believe it's God's will that they commit
violence against goyim, a Hebrew term for non-Jews." (NY Daily News,
Feb. 26, 1994, p. 5).
Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish
blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June
6, 1989, p.5).
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish
fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).
Talmudic Doctrine: Non-Jews are not Human
The Talmud specifically defines all who are not Jews as non-human
animals, and specifically dehumanizes Gentiles as not being
descendants of Adam. Here are some of the Talmud passages which relate
to this topic.
Kerithoth 6b: Uses of Oil of Anointing. "Our Rabbis have taught: He
who pours the oil of anointing over cattle or vessels is not guilty;
if over gentiles (goyim) or the dead, he is not guilty. The law
relating to cattle and vessels is right, for it is written: "Upon the
flesh of man (Adam), shall it not be poured (Exodus 30:32]); and
cattle and vessels are not man (Adam).
"Also with regard to the dead, [it is plausible] that he is exempt,
since after death one is called corpse and not a man (Adam). But why
is one exempt in the case of gentiles (goyim); are they not in the
category of man (Adam)? No, it is written: 'And ye my sheep, the sheep
of my pasture, are man" (Adam); [Ezekiel 34:31]: Ye are called man
(Adam) but gentiles (goyim) are not called man (Adam)."
In the preceding passage, the rabbis are discussing the portion of the
Mosaic law which forbids applying the holy oil to men.
The Talmud states that it is not a sin to apply the holy oil to
Gentiles, because Gentiles are not human beings (i.e. are not of
Adam).
Another example from tractate Yebamoth 61a: "It was taught: And so did
R. Simeon ben Yohai state (61a) that the graves of gentiles (goyim) do
not impart levitical uncleanness by an ohel [standing or bending over
a grave], for it is said, 'And ye my sheep the sheep of my pasture,
are men (Adam), [Ezekiel 34:31]; you are called men (Adam) but the
idolaters are not called men (Adam)."
The Old Testament Mosaic law states that touching a human corpse or
the grave of a human imparts uncleanness to those who touch it. But
the Talmud teaches that if a Jew touches the grave of a Gentile, the
Jew is not rendered unclean, since Gentiles are not human (not of
Adam).
From Baba Mezia 114b: ""A Jewish priest was standing in a graveyard.
When asked why he was standing there in apparent violation of the
Mosaic law, he replied that it was permissible, since the law only
prohibits Jews from coming into contact with the graves of humans
(Adamites), and he was standing in a gentile graveyard. For it has
been taught by Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: 'The graves of gentiles [goyim]
do not defile. For it is written, 'And ye my flock, the flock of my
pastures, are men (Adam)' (Ezekiel 34:31); only ye are designated men
(Adam)."
Ezekiel 34:31 is the alleged Biblical proof text repeatedly cited in
the preceding three Talmud passages. But Ezekiel 34:31 does not in
fact support the Talmudic notion that only Israelites are human. What
these rabbinical, anti-Gentile racists and ideologues have done in
asserting the preceding absurdities about Gentiles is distort an Old
Testament passage in order to justify their bigotry.
In Berakoth 58a the Talmud uses Ezekiel 23:20 as proof of the sub-
human status of gentiles. It also teaches that anyone (even a Jewish
man) who reveals this Talmudic teaching about non-Jews deserves death,
since revealing it makes Gentiles wrathful and causes the repression
of Judaism.
The Talmudic citation of this scripture from Ezekiel as a "proof-text"
is specious, since the passage does not prove that Gentiles are
animals. The passage from Ezekiel only says that some Egyptians had
large genital organs and copious emissions. This does not in any way
prove or even connote that the Egyptians being referred to in the
Bible were considered animals. Once again, the Talmud has falsified
the Bible by means of distorted interpretation.
Other Talmud passages which expound on Ezekiel 23:20 in this racist
fashion are: Arakin 19b, Berakoth 25b, Niddah 45a, Shabbath 150a,
Yebamoth 98a. Moreover, the original text of Sanhedrin 37a applies
God's approval only to the saving of Jewish lives (cf. the Hesronot Ha-
shas, Cracow, 1894).
Moses Maimonides: Advocate of Extermination
We will now examine the post-Talmudic commentator Rambam (Moses
Maimonides). This revered "sage" taught that Christians should be
exterminated. He has the highest stature in Judaism:
"Moses Maimonides is considered the greatest codifier and philosopher
in Jewish history. He is often affectionately referred to as the
Rambam, after the initials of his name and title, Rabenu Moshe Ben
Maimon, "Our Rabbi, Moses son of Maimon." [Maimonides' Principles,
edited by Aryeh Kaplan, Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of
America,, p. 3].
Here is what Maimonides (Rambam) taught concerning saving people's
lives, especially concerning saving the lives of gentiles and
Christians, or even Jews who dared to deny the "divine inspiration" of
the Talmud:
Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Moznaim Publishing Corporation, Brooklyn,
New York, 1990, Chapter 10, English Translation), p. 184:
"Accordingly, if we see an idolater (gentile) being swept away or
drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life
is in danger, we should not save him." The Hebrew text of the Feldheim
1981 edition of Mishnah Torah states this as well.
Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews
not to save a drowning or perishing gentile, he informs us of the
Talmudic duty of Jews towards Christians, and also towards Jews who
deny the Talmud. Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Chapter 10), p. 184:
"It is a mitzvah [religious duty], however, to eradicate Jewish
traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the
pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway
the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students,
and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked
rot."
The Jewish publisher's commentary accompanying the preceding statement
of Maimonides states that Jesus was an example of a min (plural:
minnim).
The commentary also states that the students of Tzadok were defined as
those Jews who deny the truth of the Talmud and who uphold only the
written law (i.e. the Old Testament).
According to Maimonides' Principles, p. 5, Maimonides "spent twelve
years extracting every decision and law from the Talmud, and arranging
them all into 14 systematic volumes. The work was finally completed in
1180, and was called Mishnah Torah, or "Code of the Torah."
Maimonides taught in another part of the Mishnah Torah that gentiles
are not human: "Man alone, and not vessels, can contract uncleanness
by carriage. ...The corpse of a gentile, however, does not convey
uncleanness by overshadowing. ...a gentile does not contract corpse
uncleanness; and if a gentile touches, carries, or overshadows a
corpse he is as one who did not touch it.
"To what is this like? It is like a beast which touches a corpse or
overshadows it. And this applies not to corpse uncleanness only but to
any other kind of uncleanness: neither gentiles nor cattle are
susceptible to any uncleanness." (The Code of Maimonides, vol. 10,
translated by Herbert Danby, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1954,
pp. 8-9).
Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11: "A Jew who killed a
righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus
21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man
deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But
a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not
executed for killing an unrighteous gentile."
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a
restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-
shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he
had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a
single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic
words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the
authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist
version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List
attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on
posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda
intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its
essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever
preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an
entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions
only the saving of Jewish lives.
Jewish Deception and Dissimulation
The response of the orthodox rabbis to documentation regarding the
racism and hatred in their sacred texts is simply to brazenly lie, in
keeping with the Talmud's Baba Kamma 113a which states that Jews may
use lies ("subterfuge") to circumvent a Gentile.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center, a multi-million dollar rabbinical
propaganda center dispatched Rabbi Daniel Landes in 1995 to deny that
the Talmud dehumanizes non-Jews. "This is utter rot," he said. His
proof? Why, his word, of course.
Lying to "circumvent a Gentile" has a long patrimony in Judaism. Take
for example the 13th century Talmud debate in Paris between Nicholas
of Donin, a Jewish convert to Christianity, whom Hyam Maccoby admits
had "a good knowledge of the Talmud" ("The Jews on Trial," p. 26) and
Rabbi Yehiel. Yehiel was not under threat of death, bodily injury,
imprisonment or fine. Yet he brazenly lied during the course of the
debate.
When asked by Donin whether there were attacks on Jesus in the Talmud,
Yehiel denied that there were any. Donin, a Hebrew and Aramaic
scholar, knew this to be false. Hyam Maccoby, a 20th century Jewish
commentator on the debate, defends Rabbi Yehiel's lying in this way:
"The question may be asked, however, whether Yehiel really believed
that Jesus was not mentioned in the Talmud, or whether he put this
forward as an ingenious ploy in the desperate situation in which he
found himself...It would certainly have been pardonable of the rabbi
to attempt some condonation in which he did not fully believe, to
prevent such tyrannical proceedings by one religious culture against
another." (Maccoby, "The Jews on Trial," p. 28).
This is how Jewish denial of the existence of hateful Talmud texts is
justified to this day. A fanciful word for Jewish lying is conjured
("condonation") and deemed "pardonable," while any scrutiny of Jewish
holy books by Christian investigators is characterized as a
"tyrannical proceeding."
In 1994, Rabbi Tzvi Marx, director of Applied Education at the Shalom
Hartman Institute in Jerusalem, made a remarkable admission concerning
how Jewish rabbis in the past have issued two sets of texts: the
authentic Talmudic texts with which they instruct their own youth in
the Talmud schools (yeshiviot) and "censured and amended" versions
which they disseminate to gullible non-Jews for public consumption.
Rabbi Marx states that in the version of Maimonides' teachings
published for public consumption, Maimonides is made to say that
whoever kills a human being transgresses the law.
But, Rabbi Marx points out "...this only reflects the censured and
amended printed text, whereas the original manuscripts have it only as
'whoever kills an Israelite."(Tikkun: A Bi-Monthly Jewish Critique May-
June, 1994).
The Jewish book, Hesronot Ha-shas ("that which is removed from the
Talmud"), is important in this regard. (Cf. William Popper, The
Censorship of Hebrew Books p. 59).
Hesronot Ha-shas was reprinted in 1989 by Sinai Publishing of Tel-
Aviv. Hesronot Ha-shas is valuable because it lists both the original
Talmud texts that were later changed or omitted, and the falsified
texts cited for Gentile consumption as authentic.
Historian William Popper states: "It was not always that long
passages...were censored...but often single words alone were
omitted...Often, in these cases, another method of correction was used
in place of omission--substitution." (Cf. William Popper, The
Censorship of Hebrew Books pp. 58-59).
For example, the translators of the English Soncino version of the
Talmud sometimes render the Hebrew word goyim (Gentiles) under any
number of disguise words such as "heathen, Cuthean, Kushite, Egyptian,
idolater" etc. But these are actually references to Gentiles (all non-
Jews). Footnotes for certain passages in the Soncino Talmud
translation state: "Cuthean (Samaritan) was here substituted for the
original goy..."
The heirs of the Pharisees often deny the existence of the Talmud
passages here cited, in order to brazenly claim that such passages are
the "fabrications of anti-Semites."
In 1994, the 80 year old Lady Jane Birdwood was arrested and
prosecuted in a criminal court in London, England for the "crime" of
publishing in her pamphlet, The Longest Hatred, the truthful statement
that the Talmud contains anti-Gentile and anti-Christian passages.
(She was accused of violating the Public Order Act of 1986).
In the course of her Orwellian thought-crime trial, which was ignored
by the U.S. media, a rabbi was called as a prosecution witness. The
rabbi proceeded to flatly deny that the Talmud contained anti-Gentile
or anti-Christian passages and on the basis of the rabbi's "prestige,"
this elderly and ailing woman was sentenced to three months in jail
and fined the equivalent of $1,000.
"Judeo-Christian" Response to the Talmud
Neither the modern popes or the modern heads of Protestantism, have
ever insisted that the rabbis of Judaism repudiate or condemn the
racism in the Talmud or the murderous hate for Christians and gentiles
expressed within it. On the contrary, the heads of Churchianity have
urged the followers of Christ to obey, honor and support the followers
of the Talmud. Therefore, it should be obvious that these Catholic and
Protestant leaders are the worst betrayers of Jesus Christ on earth
today. (Cf. Matthew 23:13-15; I Thess. 2:14-16; Titus 1:14; Luke
3:8-9; Rev. 3:9).
Non-Jews are "Supernal Refuse"
Moreover, not only Christians but non-Christians of all races are
regarded as "supernal refuse" (garbage) by Talmud teachers such as the
founder of Habad-Lubavitch, Rabbi Shneur Zalman.
This was analyzed in the Jewish magazine, New Republic: "...there are
some powerful ironies in Habad's new messianic universalism, in its
mission to the gentiles; and surely the most unpleasant of them
concerns Habad's otherwise undisguised and even racial contempt for
the goyim.
"...medieval Jewish theologians--most notably the poet and philosopher
Judah Ha-Levi in twelfth-century Spain and the mystic Judah Loewe in
sixteenth-century Prague--sought to define the Jewish distinction
racially rather than spiritually...this...view, according to which
there is something innately superior about the Jews, was rehabilitated
in its most extreme form by Shneur Zalman of Lyady. The founder of
Lubavitcher Hasidism taught that there is a difference of essence
between the souls of Jews and the souls of gentiles, that only in the
Jewish soul does there reside a spark of divine vitality.
"As for the goyim...Zalman's attitude (was): 'Gentile souls are of a
completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with
no redeeming qualities whatsoever.'
"Consequently, references to gentiles in Rabbi Shneur Zalman's
teachings are invariably invidious. Their (non-Jews) material
abundance derives from supernal refuse. Indeed, they themselves derive
from refuse, which is why they are more numerous than the Jews, as the
pieces of chaff outnumber the kernels...All Jews were innately good,
all gentiles innately evil.
"...Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently
evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to Jews,
has not in any way been revised in later Habad writing." --The New
Republic, May 4, 1992. Also cf. Roman A. Foxbrunner, Habad: The
Hasidism of Shneur Zalman of Lyady (Northvale, New Jersey, Jason
Aronson, Inc., 1993) pp. 108-109.
U.S. Government Lays Groundwork for Talmudic Courts
"Our" government under Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, has
provided, under the euphemism of education (for example, House Joint
Resolution 173 and Public Law 102-14), a groundwork for the
establishment of Talmudic "courts of justice" to be administered by
disciples of Shneur Zalman's Chabad successor, Rabbi Menachem Mendel
Schneerson.
Maimonides ruled that it is a Jewish court -- or a court appointed by
Jewish authority --that enforces obedience and passes judgment on
Gentiles, as well as promulgating legislation by court order for that
purpose. Maimonides further decreed that any non-Jewish nation "not
subject to our jurisdiction" (tahaht yadeinu) will be the target of
Jewish holy war. (Cf. Hilkhot Melakhim 8:9-10; 10:11. Also cf. Gerald
J. Blidstein, "Holy War in Maimonidean Law," in Perspectives on
Maimonides [Oxford, England: Oxford Univ. Press, 1991].
These courts are to be convened allegedly under the "Noahide
Laws" (proscriptions against idolatry supposedly based on the covenant
with Noah). The U.S. presidents and Congress urged the adoption of the
"Noahide" Laws as interpreted by Chabad-Lubavitch Grand Rabbi
Schneerson.
Prof. Easterly of the Southern University Law Center, a Jewish legal
expert, has compared this Public law 102-14 to the "first rays of
dawn" which "evidence the rising of a still unseen sun."
The Jewish Encyclopedia envisages a Noahide regime as a possible world
order immediately preceding the universal reign of the Talmud.
It has to be understood that we are not dealing with the Noah of the
Bible when the religion of Judaism refers to "Noahide law," but the
Noahide law as understood and interpreted by the absolute system of
falsification that constitutes the Talmud.
Under the Talmud's counterfeit Noahide Laws, the worship of Jesus is
forbidden under penalty of death, since such worship of Christ is
condemned by Judaism as idolatry. Meanwhile various forms of incest
are permitted under the Talmudic understanding of the Noahide code.
(Enziklopediya Talmudit, note 1, pp. 351-352).
Furthermore, all non-Jews would have the legal status of ger toshav
("resident alien," cf. Alan Unterman, Dictionary of Jewish Lore and
Legend [London: Thames and Hudson, 1991], p. 148), even in their own
land; as for example in occupied Palestine where newly arrived Khazars
from Russia have an automatic right to housing and citizenship, while
two million Palestinian refugees who either fled or were expelled by
the Israelis, are forbidden the right of return.
Resident alien status has been clearly delineated in scholarly
articles in leading Jewish publications. For example, Hebrew
University Professor Mordechai Nisan, basing his exposition on
Maimonides, stated that a non-Jew permitted to reside in a land ruled
by Jewish law "must accept paying a tax and suffering the humiliation
of servitude."
If Gentiles refuse to live a life of inferiority, then this signals
their rebellion and the unavoidable necessity of Jewish warfare
against their very presence. [Cf. Mordechai Nisan, Kivunim (official
publication of the World Zionist Organization), August, 1984, pp.
151-156].
At a symposium ("Is Autonomy for Resident Aliens Feasible?") organized
by Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni, the Israeli Chief
Rabbi Shlomo Goren repeated the Talmudic teaching on resident aliens:
that Judaism forbids "granting any national rights" to them. He ruled
that such "Autonomy is tantamount to a denial of the Jewish
religion." (Nadav Shraggai, Ha'aretz, Oct. 14, 1992).
American taxpayers' subsidy of the so-called "U.S. Holocaust Museum"
in Washington, D.C., is yet another indicator of the gradual
establishment of a Jewish state religion in the U.S. This "Holocaust
museum" excludes any reference to holocausts perpetrated by Jewish
Communists against Christians in Russia and Eastern Europe, from 1917
onward.
The focus of the museum is almost entirely on Jewish suffering.
Holocausts perpetrated by Israelis against Arabs in Lebanon and
Palestine since 1948 are nowhere to be found in the exhibits of the
U.S. "Holocaust Museum," which functions more like a synagogue than a
repository of objective historical information.
It is through the rapid emergence of this ostensibly secular but all-
pervasive "Holocaustianity" -- whereby the religion of Judaism is
gaining enormous power and influence as mankind's supreme ethos and
the creed of God's Holy People.
Jewish Law Requires Christians be Executed
Israeli "Torah scholars" have ruled that:
"The Torah maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in
the World to Come. But not all religious Gentiles earn eternal life by
virtue of observing their religion...And while the Christians do
generally accept the Hebrew Bible as truly from God, many of them
(those who accept the so-called divinity of Jesus) are idolaters
according to the Torah, punishable by death, and certainly will not
enjoy the World to Come."
--Israeli Mechon-Mamre website, June 26, 2000; 12 Hayyim Vital St.,
Jerusalem, Occupied Palestine. ("Mechon Mamre is a small group of
Torah scholars in Israel...").
[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this
statement from the Israeli "Mechon-Mamre Torah Scholars," as it
appeared on their website at http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/gentiles.htm
on June 26, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the
statement itself suppressed].
Jewish Superstitions
It is not for nothing that the authoritative edition of the Talmud is
known as the Babylonian Talmud. As Christians misled by their
Judaizing preachers and popes are increasingly consulting Jewish
rabbinical sources for a "pure" understanding of the Old Testament,
they are unknowingly consulting the occult.
Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and the patrimony of Babylon,
from whence the Talmudic and Kabbalistic traditions of Judaism
ultimately derive. Orthodox Judaism's other sacred book, the Kabbalah,
is filled with astrological teachings, fortune-telling, gematria,
necromancy and demonology.
The photograph on the cover of this publication's hard copy version
shows an orthodox Jew performing a ritual to transfer his sins to the
chicken he is waving over his head. This is pernicious superstition.
Furthermore, the Israeli "Star of David," is actually nothing of the
kind, but rather an occult hexagram, a yantra of the androgyne, which
became associated with the Khazars in 14th century Bohemia. (The
misnamed "state of Israel" was founded in 1948 in an alliance between
Jewish Communists and atheistic Zionists, with crucial U.N.
recognition provided by Soviet Communist dictator Joseph Stalin).
Christians might find it eye-opening to visit a Hasidic Jewish area
during "Purim" and observe the grotesque, Halloween-like cavorting.
Though the Purim festival uses the Book of Esther as its supposed
proof-text, in practice the Jewish celebration of Purim is little more
than a Bacchanal (cf. "Superstitions said legacy from Jewish
ancestors," Canadian Jewish News, Nov. 16, 1989, p. 58).
Orthodox rabbis place curses, cast spells and imagine they have powers
greater than God, derived from their study of the Sefer Yezriah, (a
book of Kabbalistic magic). Christians are trafficking in Babylonian
paganism when they defer to the rabbis of Judaism.
Sodomy in the synagogue
From a report published in the Hebrew language Israeli newspaper
Ha'aretz
"...for many years, (Talmud scribe) Yaakov Yitzhak Brizel...sodomized
ultra-Orthodox boys. The greatest rabbis knew - and did nothing...
"At the age of 11, Moisheleh, the strongest fellow in the talmud torah
(school for ultra-Orthodox boys), went up to Shaiya Brizel and said to
him: 'Kid, I want you know that your father is not the holy man you
think he is. He is a homo.' ...Brizel was a scion of the Brizel
family, which founded ...the mysterious organization that imposes
moral order on the ultra-Orthodox ghetto...
"Had the father, Yaakov Yitzhak Brizel ...contented himself with
homosexual relations with adults, it is reasonable to suppose that we
would never have heard his son's story.
"However, in his book, The Silence of the Ultra-Orthodox, published a
few weeks ago, the son claims that for decades his father ...sodomized
yeshiva students. He committed the act in empty synagogues during the
hours between prayers and in other places.
"The greatest of the ultra-Orthodox rabbis...like Rabbi Landau and the
halachic sage Shmuel Halevi Hausner of Bnei Brak, knew and kept
silent. The father was a Hasid heart and soul, and went to a number of
rebbes.... the twin brother of the rebbe from Rehovot, the Rebbe of
Kretschnif in Kiryat Gat, was happy to accept the father among his
followers. Ultimately, claims Brizel, it was not easy for the Rebbe
from Kiryat Gat to be picky when he could win such a respected
adherent.
"...The proud father with the look of an honored rebbe, who observed
all the commandments from the slightest to the most important, used to
pray at a certain yeshiva with the young boys. There, claims Shaiya
Brizel, he hunted his victims. When the head of the yeshiva discovered
the true reason that the respected Torah scribe was praying fervently
at his yeshiva, he did not contact the police...
"Before the publication of his book, Shaiya Brizel met with the
yeshiva head. 'You are right that we covered up for him,' admitted the
man. 'I and a few other rabbis...I was busy trying to calm things down
and hushing up the affair so that it would not get publicized.'
"(The son) published the book using real names. His entire family and
almost all the rabbis appear under their own names. Only the names of
some of the localities and the head of the yeshiva are disguised. To
protect himself from a legal point of view, Brizel held a series of
conversations with members of his family and rabbis, in which he
demanded explanations of why they had covered up for his father's
misbehavior. He secretly recorded all these conversations, even with
his mother.
"If I had written without the names it would have been fiction and
this certainly did not suit me," he explained. 'I wanted things to
change, for ultra-Orthodox society to know that it can attempt to hide
things and be hidden, but even if it takes 30 years, a Golem will
always rise up against its creator and reveal everything. In this
case, I was the Golem.'
"When Rachel Brizel, the daughter of a good Bnei Brak family, married
an arranged match from the glorious Brizel family, she had no idea
that she was destroying her own life. After six months, she caught her
husband having sex with another man. In that case, at least it was
with an adult.
"Shaiya Brizel relates that some of the boys with whom his father had
relations sent letters of complaint to their own fathers; in the
discreet ultra-Orthodox society they had no one else to whom they
could complain.
Shaiya Brizel: author of a book telling of sodomy in the synagogue
"When she read these letters, my mother went out of her mind,' writes
Brizel. 'Every such letter made her want to demand a divorce. Again
and again batteries of mediators, the Brizel rabbis, would show up,
whose job it was to calm her down so that, heaven forbid, she would
not destroy the good name of the Brizel family.
"They could live with the fact that one of their own had raped minors,
but for them divorce was an impossible situation.'
"...Twice, once during prayers in a synagogue, and once during a
Gemara (Talmud) study hour at Rabbi Eliezer Shach's Ponevezh Yeshiva,
ultra-Orthodox men who were strangers to him touched his sexual organ,
presumably on the assumption that he followed in his father's
footsteps. The first time, he made a fuss, only to discover that the
only thing that interested the people there was to hush the whole
thing up. The second time, he made do with a whispered warning to the
man.
"Shaiya Brizel is now 36 and the father of three; he works as an
accountant.
"His father, 65, was forced to leave home several years ago and return
to his elderly parents' apartment. Shaiya wrote this book after a
suicide attempt in June.
'For all those years I was half dead. For the past five years I have
been getting psychological treatment. During my talks with the
psychologist I decided that I was going to spew out all this ugliness
in the form of a book.'
"He took into account that there would be violent reactions to the
book...which only came out a few weeks ago...Brizel suffers from a
serious heart defect, which could cause his death. As a way of
protecting himself, he has deposited a letter with three lawyers that
contains serious allegations about the Eda Haredit, and he has
informed the relevant people.
"Recently, he has moved to a new apartment, and he lives in the
National Religious sector of a mixed community of National Religious
and ultra-Orthodox families. Naturally, he started praying at the only
Hasidic synagogue in the settlement. After the book came out,
associates of the local rebbe (rabbi) informed him that he was persona
non grata.
"Ironically, this same rebbe had come to the area after being
compelled to leave several other communities on suspicion of having
sodomized his pupils. In ultra-Orthodox society, revealing that acts
of sodomy have been committed is a far graver offense than committing
them.
"On the day the book was published, Brizel met with the head of the
Hachemei Lublin Yeshiva, Rabbi Avraham Vazner. 'He told me that
publishing the book was a million times worse than what my father had
done...'
"Ha'aretz has been unable to obtain a response from Rabbi Yaakov
Yitzhak Brizel. At his parents' home, a woman replied: "We don't care.
Shaiya is a liar and there is nothing more to be said."
"Ha'aretz also requested the Brizels' response through the Eda Haredit
activist Yehuda Meshi- Zahav. By the time the article went to press,
there was no response through this channel either.
"Several weeks ago the father responded to the women's magazine
La'isha, saying that he would sue the publishers, which has not yet
happened. It is unlikely that it will happen.
"Shaiya Brizel was ready to put off publication of the book, on
condition that the family sue him in a rabbinical court, in which the
affair would be aired. He has said that no one in the family was
prepared to take up the challenge.
"In the conversation with La'isha, the father said that he was indeed
a homosexual, 'But I have had treatment and today I am no longer like
that. All this is behind me.'
"In reply to a question as to whether he had sexual relations with
minors, he replied: 'Perhaps I will talk about that some other time.'
He accused his son Shaiya of being 'the only one who is after me. He
has destroyed my life...He wrote this only for the money. He wanted
money from me...Because of him I separated from my wife.'
"Shaiya's sister, Rivka Hubert, spoke with great anger to the La'isha
reporter about the fact that her brother had revealed the names of the
persons involved, and declared: 'We deny everything it says in the
book."
[End quote]
Source: Ha'aretz, "Israel's Leading Daily Newspaper," Shevat 25, 5760
(Feb. 1, 2000).
Truth and honesty
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/bible.html
drahcir
coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 21:14:56 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The Truth about the Talmud
>
>A Documented Exposé of Jewish racist Hate Literature
>
>By Michael Hoffman, foremost scholar of Judaism in the English-
>speaking world
LOL!
Views on cryptocracy
Hoffman's self-described vocation is "researching the occult
cryptocracy's orchestration of American history." He believes that
this cryptocracy runs American history, controlling culture and
thought via ritualistic psychodramas and killing sprees. A detailed
explanation of this hypothesis is found in Hoffman's Secret Societies
and Psychological Warfare. Examples of such "psychodramas," in
Hoffman's view, include Route 66 (which connects various centers of
Satanic importance), and the Assassination of President John F.
Kennedy, in which Hoffman sees ritualistic elements.[1]
Hoffman also argues that the gnosis of this ruling cabal are slowly
being revealed through movies such as They Live and The Matrix and
other forms of symbolic and subliminal communication which Hoffman
terms twilight language.[2]
[edit]Views on Jews and Judaism
See also: Criticism of the Talmud#Michael Hoffman
In his books Judaism's Strange Gods (2000) and Judaism Discovered: A
Study of the Anti-Biblical Religion of Racism, Self-Worship,
Superstition and Deceit (2008), Hoffman argues using quotations and
context from various Talmudic tractates that modern-day Jewish
Orthodoxy's use of the Oral tradition represented by the Mishnah, the
Gemara and derivative rabbinic halacha, wholly nullifies authority of
the Old Testament. Hoffman supports the Karaites, a Jewish sect who
reject the Talmud, as "a group which, historically, has been most
hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate."[3]
According to the back cover of Judaism Discovered, Hoffman contends
that Orthodox Judaism has more in common with Babylonian paganism than
Israelite Biblicism.
[edit]Views on the Holocaust
Hoffman doubts that execution gas chambers existed in the Nazi camp
Auschwitz-Birkenau, and claims that the term "Holocaust" is Orwellian
Newspeak imposed beginning circa 1978 in order to confuse and distract
from debates about the numbers of Jewish deaths that can be attributed
to Nazism.[4] Hoffman doubts that six million Jews were killed by the
Nazis and asserts that most of the Jewish deaths in WWII were from
typhus, malnutrition and shootings perpetrated by some units of the SS
on the Eastern front.
Hoffman believes that Hitler did indeed have as a goal, at least
philosophically, the extermination (Ausrottung) of the Jewish people,
but Hoffman also argues that the primary means of extermination—the
execution gas chambers of Auschwitz—have not been scientifically
proved to have existed or been operable, and that "eyewitness"
testimony failed under cross-examination at the 1985 "Great Holocaust
Trial" of Ernst Zündel in Toronto.
Hoffman rejects the label "Holocaust denier," and argues[4] that the
label is applied unfairly, and with an emotional rather than empirical
basis, to those who research controversial issues related to WWII and
Judaism—according to Hoffman, applying the same partisan logic, those
who doubt the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception would
be stigmatized by journalists and academics as "Immaculate Conception
deniers."
Political scientist Michael Barkun has characterized Hoffman as a
"Holocaust denier and proponent of multiple conspiracy theories",[5]
while Mattias Gardell writes, "Antisemitism is prominent also in the
worldview of Michael Hoffman II, one of the counterculture's more
original conspiracy researchers".[6] Robert Jan van Pelt calls Hoffman
a Holocaust "negationist."[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Hoffman_II
coaster132000
> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
state.
http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
"Screaming, in-your-face" lies. See the MacDonald article immediately
above describing your behavior which I have selflessly provided for
you. You have been acting-out his thesis here for years. I've been
collecting examples of it for almost as long, but only now have found
this systematic, shall we say scientific, description of the way you
behave.
If trying to understand something extremely important about your
Talmud is "sinking into the abyss", then perhaps I am. If wanting to
know some of the characteristics of your ethnic acculturation, to
comprehend them, is anti-Semitism, then I suppose there is no escape
from it. I do want to explore the question of whether there is a
Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism or on the other hand whether we
Christians (and the Muslims) must bear 100% of the burden for it.
You're an obvious one hundred percenter. As you would impose such a
burden, you must justify it whether you like it or not. Frankly, as an
American I particularly resist carrying 100% blame for it as we are
not responsible for Europe's crimes against you, much less those of
Muslims.
I know nothing about Michael Hoffman except that he has compiled this
collection of passages from and observations about the Talmud. I don't
care who he is or what else he has done. I'm interested in the
information he provides here. It is on point. At present I can't avoid
seeing these passages from the Talmud as a major Jewish contribution
to anti-Semitism. I am interested in whether it is accurate and just
that the Christian world bear all the onus for it. As anti-Semitism is
older than Christian power and dominion, it appears counter-intuitive
that that you Jews are free of responsibility. I think you must have
contributed to it and still do. Is it anti-Semitic to wish not to bear
all of this burden if it is not just that we should?
Go back to the first post. Read through this primitive and deeply
hostile collection of material from the Talmud, your most holy book.
And then take up YOUR burden.
ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
capable of it.
drahcir
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
>> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
>> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
>> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
>"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
>state.
AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
and better...
Ariadne
> Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
Is that all?
It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
Ariadne
> On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> > This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> > coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> > your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
> "It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
> state.
>
> http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
>
You get worse and worse. Take a look at the filth
you promote now:
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2007/05/american-jewish-leftist-american-jews.html
coaster132000
You exhibit neither truth nor honesty. There is evidence immediately
before you and instead of evaluating it you call me a liar and try to
change the header.
This from Hoffman: Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges")
to circumvent a Gentile. I haven't looked yet; is this a
misrepresentation of the uncensored Baba Kamma 113a?
The sacred book written by Christians, The New Testament, appears not
to condone deceit. Yours, the Talmud, appears to do just that. As to
lying, which one generates dislike for its adherents? Doesn't it
appear, T & H, that Judaism has and still does contribute to anti-
Semitism?
coaster132000
> On Mar 11, 9:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>
> > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
>
> Is that all?
>
> It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
There is nothing whatever funny about anti-Semitism. You should be
working against it *honestly* and therefore comprehensively. If
Hoffman's compendium from the Talmud and supporting sources are
accurate, The Talmud contributes to anti-Semitism. You must know
Hoffman better than I. I'm going to ignore what he is accused of by
you and declare that the question of whether his statements in post
No. 1 of this thread are true or not are matters of objective reality
completely independent of the man who gathered them together. In short
whether Hoffman is an anti-Semite and a Holocaust denier is irrelevant
as it does not bear on whether what he says in post no. 1, above, is
the truth. And if what he says is true or largely so, we will expect
you to tell the truth about that fact and Hoffman the personality will
be a cipher.
Clip
coaster132000
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:23 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>
> >On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> >> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> >> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> >> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
> >"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
> >state.
>
> AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
> psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
> roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
> yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
> and better...
Readers, the MacDonald article replies directly to this behavior. Here
it is:
http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
> >"Screaming, in-your-face" lies. See the MacDonald article immediately
> >above describing your behavior which I have selflessly provided for
> >you. You have been acting-out his thesis here for years. I've been
> >collecting examples of it for almost as long, but only now have found
> >this systematic, shall we say scientific, description of the way you
> >behave.
>
> >If trying to understand something extremely important about your
> >Talmud is "sinking into the abyss", then perhaps I am. If wanting to
> >know some of the characteristics of your ethnic acculturation, to
> >comprehend them, is anti-Semitism, then I suppose there is no escape
> >from it. I do want to explore the question of whether there is a
> >Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism or on the other hand whether we
> >Christians (and the Muslims) must bear 100% of the burden for it.
> >You're an obvious one hundred percenter. As you would impose such a
> >burden, you must justify it whether you like it or not. Frankly, as an
> >American I particularly resist carrying 100% blame for it as we are
> >not responsible for Europe's crimes against you, much less those of
> >Muslims.
Whereas it is nevertheless our great misfortune to have assumed
responsibility for Israel's crimes in the Middle East.
coaster132000
But YOU posted this and I've never seen it before. Why am I
responsible for it? I suggest you explain yourself.
drahcir
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mar 11, 12:26 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:23 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>>
>> <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
>> >> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
>> >> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>>
>> >"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
>> >state.
>>
>> AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
>> psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
>> roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
>> yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
>> and better...
>
>Readers, the MacDonald article replies directly to this behavior. Here
>it is:
>
>http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
LOL! Poor H tries to appeal to "readers", as if what this poor schlepp
is trying to do isn't obvious to all. "This behavior" is nothing more
than my proving you a liar or making a fool of you in nearly every
post. You don't like that - who would? Due to my inescapable logic,
you have no recourse except pitiful, empty accusations like
"sociopathic" and "this behavior" - comcpletely devoid of meaning. The
funniest part is that you just won't give up, and each time you try to
dig yourself out, you only succeed in making yourself look stupder.
That's why yoiu are so very much fun, H, or patricia, or whatever.
last_per...@yahoo.com
> On Mar 11, 9:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>
> > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
>
> Is that all?
>
> It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
But do you take your Talmud as gospel, turd?
last_per...@yahoo.com
A ZioNazi tell the truth? Do you expect to see a winged rhino in a
tree?
last_per...@yahoo.com
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:23 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>
> >On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> >> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> >> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> >> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
> >"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
> >state.
>
> AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
> psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
> roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
> yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
> and better...
Face it ratboy, your life is a perpetual wallow in shit.
What's new..
drahcir
wrote:
>On Mar 11, 1:26 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:23 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>>
>> <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
>> >> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
>> >> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>>
>> >"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
>> >state.
>>
>> AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
>> psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
>> roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
>> yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
>> and better...
>
>Face it ratboy, your life is a perpetual wallow in shit.
That's your fantasy, not mine.
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> > This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> > coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> > your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
> "It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
> state.
> http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
lol
From David Duke to David Irving to Kevin MacDonald to Michael Hoffman.
And Hunter claims he's not an antisemite.
> If trying to understand something extremely important about your
> Talmud is "sinking into the abyss", then perhaps I am. If wanting to
> know some of the characteristics of your ethnic acculturation, to
> comprehend them, is anti-Semitism, then I suppose there is no escape
> from it. I do want to explore the question of whether there is a
> Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism or on the other hand whether we
> Christians (and the Muslims) must bear 100% of the burden for it.
Hunter is the last person to undertake that very large intellectual
task; chiefly because he knows little about Judaism, and has even less
of a desire to learn about it. Except from Jew haters, of course.
> I know nothing about Michael Hoffman except that he has compiled this
> collection of passages from and observations about the Talmud. I don't
> care who he is or what else he has done. I'm interested in the
> information he provides here.
Hoffman provides....nothing but misquotes and outright lies. These
have been refuted time and again on this NG and elsewhere.
But of course, Hunter will take the word of a holocaust denier who
asserts the Nazis killed only a few thousand Jews, and those mainly
from disease.
>At present I can't avoid
> seeing these passages from the Talmud as a major Jewish contribution
> to anti-Semitism. I am interested in whether it is accurate
They aren't. Just check out a copy of an English-language translation
of the Talmud, and check it for yourself. Or ask a rabbi about it. If
you can't stomach the thought of talking to a rabbi, then contact a
Talmudic Christian scholar.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 9:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>
> > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
>
> Is that all?
>
> It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
Rather sad: Hunter's "experts" are David Duke, David Irving, Michael
Hoffman, Kevin MacDonald, Ilan Pappe, and others of That Ilk. It's
like professing an interest in Judaism but reading only one book on
the subject: A History of the Jews by Adolf Eichmann, with forward by
Amin al-Husayni, and afterword by Yasir Arafat and Mahmoud
Ahmadinutjob.
Deborah
>
>
>
> >http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/bible.html
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 3:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>
> > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
> >http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/bible.html
> > > The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books).
> > > Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism.
Bosh.
> You exhibit neither truth nor honesty.
And Hoffman does?
>There is evidence immediately
> before you and instead of evaluating it you call me a liar and try to
> change the header.
> This from Hoffman: Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges")
> to circumvent a Gentile. I haven't looked yet; is this a
> misrepresentation of the uncensored Baba Kamma 113a?
It's an outright falsification.
Get a copy of the Talmud and check for yourself, or read the following
(slowly and carefully).
"It is forbidden to deceive people, even heathens (non-Jews)." BT
Chullin 94a
Talmud Bava Kamma 113b
Shmuel said: Their mistakes are permitted. Like when Shmuel bought
from a gentile a golden bowl (with the seller thinking it was bronze)
for four zuz and accidentally paid him one zuz less.
The Talmud is not stating that it is permissible to cheat a gentile.
We saw above that the Talmud specifically forbids that. What the
Talmud is saying is that normal business relations is for each party
of a transaction to be responsible for their side of the deal. If
Shmuel found a cheap bowl and, after accidentally underpaying, the
seller did not count his money, then Shmuel was not obligated to
correct the seller. The seller was negligent and Shmuel did not have
to correct his mistake. For one's brothers and relatives one must go
beyond the standard practice of business relations and correct all
mistakes - return lost change, explain all misunderstandings, etc.
However, for a business relation with whom there is mutual respect and
understanding but nothing more, one conducts business by following
convention.
CHEATING GENTILES IS FORBIDDEN
The Accusation
O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a .
This is perhaps one of the worst lies stated. The Talmud and post-
Talmudic literature absolutely and unequivocally forbid lying to
anyone, whether Jew or gentile. It is forbidden to cheat or to profit
from lying. Consider the following passage:
Talmud Chullin 94a
As Shmuel said: It is forbidden to deceive anyone, even an idolatrous
gentile.
This statement is affirmed in Maimonides' famous legal work the
Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Deiot 2:6) and in the Shulchan Aruch (code of
law - Choshen Mishpat 228:6). The concept is evident throughout Jewish
literature. A few other places where it can be found as law are: Rabbi
Yom Tov ben Avraham Alashbili, Chiddushei HaRitva, Chullin ad. loc.;
Rabbi Yehudah HaChasid, Sefer Chasidim, 51; Rabbi Eliezer from Metz,
Sefer Yerei'im, 124; Rabbi Elazar Azkiri, Sefer Chareidim, 29:20;
Rabbi Yehudah Rosannes, Derech Pekudecha, 2:36:2; Rabbi Moshe from
Coucy, Sefer Mitzvot HaGadol (Smag), 1:74, 2:155; Rabbi Yonah from
Gerona, Sha'arei Teshuvah (Gates of Repentance), 3:184; Rabbi Shmuel
Eidels, Chiddushei Maharsha - Chiddushei Aggadot, Chullin ad. loc.
There is, perhaps, no clearer denunciation than the following of
Maimonides in his commentary to the Mishnah:
Maimonides, Commentary to the Mishnah, Keilim 12:7
And similiarly, lies, tricks, subterfuges, cheatings, and
circumventions of gentiles are forbidden. They said [as quoted above]
'It is forbidden to deceive anyone, even an idolatrous gentile' and
even more so when it can lead to the desecration of G-d's name. For
that is a great sin and imbues in a person bad traits. And all these
wicked actions G-d explained that He will be disgusted with them and
with those who perform them, as it says: (Deuteronomy 18:12) "For
anyone who does these is an abomination of G-d."
With this in mind, let us approach the text in question.
Talmud Bava Kamma 113b
Shmuel said: Their mistakes are permitted. Like when Shmuel bought
from a gentile a golden bowl (with the seller thinking it was bronze)
for four zuz and accidentally paid him one zuz less.
The Talmud is not stating that it is permissible to cheat a gentile.
We saw above that the Talmud specifically forbids that. What the
Talmud is saying is that normal business relations is for each party
of a transaction to be responsible for their side of the deal. If
Shmuel found a cheap bowl and, after accidentally underpaying, the
seller did not count his money, then Shmuel was not obligated to
correct the seller. The seller was negligent and Shmuel did not have
to correct his mistake. For one's brothers and relatives one must go
beyond the standard practice of business relations and correct all
mistakes - return lost change, explain all misunderstandings, etc.
However, for a business relation with whom there is mutual respect and
understanding but nothing more, one conducts business by following
convention.
In case the preceding has been unclear, let me restate it. A Jew is
not obligated to correct a gentile's business mistakes. The Jew may
not trick the gentile but if the gentile has been careless then the
sale is nevertheless valid.
The following are just a few sources who state explicitly that the
Talmud was only referring to accidental mistakes: Maimonides, Mishneh
Torah, Hilchot Geneivah 7:8; Rabbi Mordechai Ashkenazi, Mordechai, end
of Bava Batra; Chinuch, 258; Rabbi Shlomo Luriah, Yam Shel Shlomo,
Bava Kamma 10:20; Rabbi Ephraim Navon, Machaneh Ephraim, Hilchot
Gezeilah 4; Rabbi Yehoshua Falk, Sefer Me'irat Einayim, to Shulchan
Aruch, Choshen Mishpat 283:6, 359:3.
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/cheat.html
> The sacred book written by Christians, The New Testament, appears not
> to condone deceit. Yours, the Talmud, appears to do just that. As to
> lying, which one generates dislike for its adherents? Doesn't it
> appear, T & H, that Judaism has and still does contribute to anti-
> Semitism?
Talmud Sanhedrin 31a:
What is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is all the Torah;
the rest is commentary. Now go and study.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 12:41 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 9:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>
> > > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
>
> > Is that all?
>
> > It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
>
> There is nothing whatever funny about anti-Semitism. You should be
> working against it *honestly* and therefore comprehensively. If
> Hoffman's compendium from the Talmud and supporting sources are
> accurate, The Talmud contributes to anti-Semitism.
Hoffman describes himself as "the foremost scholar of Judaism in the
English-speaking world". Not even acknowledged experts on Judaism
describe themselves so arrogantly. What Hoffman is actually is an
antisemite, a holocaust denier, a supporter of David Duke, David
Irving, Ernest Zundel, and that ilk, and a liar -- just like Hunter
Watson.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 12:26 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:23 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>
> > <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> > >> This is so great! HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka
> > >> coaster, the proven serial liar, sinking into the abyss. That's what
> > >> your antismitism does, H, you can't help it. It is wonderful to see.
>
> > >"It is wonderful to see" was a mistake, an admission as to your inner
> > >state.
>
> > AAAAAAAAAHAHAHA!! Our silly, senile, stupid proven liar wants to play
> > psychologist. It "was a mistake - an admittsion of my INNER STATE"
> > roflmao - that is PRICELESS! You fucking idiot, you were doing
> > yourself less harm with "socioparthic". It just gets better and better
> > and better...
>
> Readers, the MacDonald article replies directly to this behavior.
An article from Radio Islam, from a noted racist and antisemite, on
the Evil Jooooz and their crimes.
MacDonald's colleagues at the university's psychology department, as
well as the Cal State Long Beach academic senate, have formally
disassociated themselves from his work. The academic senate described
his views as anti-Semitic and white ethnocentric. MacDonald also
argues that blacks and Latinos are genetically intellectually
inferior to whites and Asians.
Andrew Smith, "Psychology department to issue statement on
professor's controversial literature". Daily 49er.
http://media.www.daily49er.com/media/storage/paper1042/news/2008/02/07
Psychology Department To Issue Statement On Professors
Controversial Literature-3194393.shtml
T. Rider, "Academic senate disassociates itself from
Professor MacDonald". Daily 49er. October 6, 2008
http://www.daily49er.com/news/academic-senate-disassociates-itself-fr....
"MacDonald's work has been well received by those in the racialist
right, as it amounts to a theoretically sophisticated justification
for anti-Semitism."
George Michael, "Professor Kevin MacDonald's critique of
Judaism: legitimate scholarship or the intellectualization of anti-
semitism?", Journal of Church and State, September 22, 2006
"MacDonald's essays on Jews is highlighted on the official website of
former Ku Klux Klan member David Duke, who said it contains 'a deeper
intellectual understanding of the nature of Jewish supremacism and
its implications for European Americans.'"
L. Sahagun, "Probe of Cal State Long Beach professor sought",
LA Times, April 25, 2007
MacDonald testified in defense of convicted Holocaust denier David
Irving, where he alleged that the suppression of Irving's work was
"an example of Jewish tactics for combating anti-Semitism."
The Southern Poverty Law Center criticized MacDonald for holding
panels and working with Virginia Abernethy, a self-described "white
separatist" and member of the white nationalist organization Council
of Conservative Citizens which has described blacks as "a retrograde
subspecies of humanity" among other things. "Not since Hitler's Mein
Kampf have anti-Semites had such a comprehensive reference guide to
what's 'wrong with Jews.' His work is widely advertised and touted on
white supremacist websites and sold by neo-Nazi outfits like National
Vanguard Books, which considers them 'the most important books of the
last 100 years.'"
H. Beirich, "Promoting Hate: California Professor is Font of
Anti-Semitism" Southern Poverty Law Center Intelligence Report,
Spring 2007
Looks like Hunter Watson has again firmly placed himself in the
company of David Duke, David Irving, the white supremacist
Stormfront, the neo-Nazi National Vanguard, and now, Michael Hoffman.
How unsurprising.
Deborah
drahcir
<dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 11, 1:30 pm, coaster132000 <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 11, 12:26 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
The coolest part in all this is that H's veils are falling - each day
that he posts shows his antisemitism more clearly. The funniest part
is that I am fairly certian that he is aware of this, but is powerless
to do anything about it.
Ariadne
Radio gaga.
You, the antisemite McDonald and the
antisemite "Karin Friedman" you are pimping for.
If you can't manage to read the Israel Matsav
post perhaps you will manage Jihadwatch.
dsharavi
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:43:44 -0800 (PST), dsharavi
>
> >On Mar 11, 1:30 pm, coaster132000 <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mar 11, 12:26 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> The coolest part in all this is that H's veils are falling - each day
> that he posts shows his antisemitism more clearly. The funniest part
> is that I am fairly certian that he is aware of this, but is powerless
> to do anything about it.
Quite sad. But then, of course, Hunter never did take into
consideration that old saw..."Oh, what a tangled web we weave....."
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 8:37 pm, coaster132000 <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 12:50 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >http://radioislam.org/gaza/macdonald.htm
>
> > > You get worse and worse. Take a look at the filth
> > > you promote now:
>
> > >http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2007/05/american-jewish-leftist-amer...
>
> > But YOU posted this and I've never seen it before. Why am I
> > responsible for it? I suggest you explain yourself.
>
> Radio gaga.
>
> You, the antisemite McDonald and the
> antisemite "Karin Friedman" you are pimping for.
You left out Michael Hoffman and Radio Islam.
> If you can't manage to read the Israel Matsav
> post perhaps you will manage Jihadwatch.
> http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/05/my-notorious-power-point-presentati...
Not a chance!
Deborah
PS - How's things? I can't find Double Gloucester for under $15 per
pound. The kids have taken a great liking to it, and so I have to hide
it. They can scarf on Tillamook cheddar. What does Double G go for in
your neck of the woods? Caerphilly's a rarity, too.
Deborah
mirjam
> But do you take your Talmud as gospel, turd?
Last Permutation
Do you pray to court room discussion minutes?
mirjam
DoD
That is exactly what I was thinking. This prick has no bounds with his
bullshit. I wouldn't
think twice about it, but he is such a coward claiming he is not a Jew
hater. This fuck
is the biggest prick on the internet with his Jew hatred. It is
almost comical. What a sad
little man he is.
last_per...@yahoo.com
Answer the question toejam.
coaster132000
According to the Talmud, their most holy book, Jews are not required
to tell the truth to non-Jews. This is incendiary stuff. How could
this characteristic not tend to create animosity among people who deal
with them? It must contribute to anti-Semitism. It couldn't be
otherwise.
coaster132000
> On Mar 11, 11:51 pm, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 11:37 pm, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
Clip
Activists such as Ratner and Sharavi always attack personally but
never respond to the issue. The attacks are designed to distract from
issues they don't want discussed in the open. Their pretense is that
Judaism's problems and issues are too sensitive to be raised openly by
the detested "Goyim". In effect they claim that any non-Jew who wants
to discuss them is ipso facto an anti-Semite.
Central for them is that matters of domestic politics are at stake.
They use the same accusations of anti-Semitism as a primary tool to
suppress debate on matters of public policy, matters of which they
only own 1.8% in the democratic sense. That bracket creep from
questions of religion and culture to the intimidation of public
discourse on critical questions of foreign policy is where the problem
lies. It is an immense, highly focused, single-issue crisis in this
country. In actual importance there is no hotter issue, certainly not
the economy.
The political power of the anti-Semitism weapon is directly related to
the question, do Jewish tradition and culture *contribute* to the
creation of anti-Semitism? If they do contribute, the potency the anti-
Semitism weapon in closing down debate, for example on the *nature* of
our relationship with Israel, will be at least proportionately
diminished. It's quite clear that both Israel and the United States
can only benefit from that result. Israeli politics is on a self-
destructive path and she is dragging us deeper and deeper into it. To
be a bit flip, Israel needs a nanny just now and I doubt that she
would choose the Europeans for that role. It would be better by far
were she to stop abusing us and cemented the relationship by doing her
share in settling with the Palestinians. Bad habits are hard to shake
but succeeding can be veritably "existential".
coaster132000
> On Mar 12, 8:00 am, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 11:51 pm, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 11, 11:37 pm, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Clip
>
> Activists such as Ratner and Sharavi always attack personally but
> never respond to the issue. The attacks are designed to distract from
> Judaism's problems are too sensitive to be raised openly by
mirjam
last Permutation.
I answered you correctly , had you known what the Talmud is , than you
would have understood it,
mirjam
Jason P
It seems to me that Ratnose is full of nothing but fantasies. Maybe
his Talmud's pages were soaked in LSD or something like it. He's taken
to concocting (and believing) factoids describing me that never
happened. At least not from my hand or by my mouth.
Apparently this is the problem with Ratnose, and all his ilk. They,
all of them, have always believed their own fantasies and their
uniquely Judaic lies.
As I said in another thread: "Jews only care about what's good for the
Jews.... "
I've worked for, worked with, and worked around, many more than just a
few Jews in my lifetime. I've come to realize one thing about them...
they are steeped in pervasive self-promotion and self-interest and lie
like no tomorrow. They all lie like god-damned thieves really.
Ratnose, Debbie Dungball, Toejam, Dougy-Cornholio, Arid-Asshole, and
the rest of their sick company of assorted assholes, are certainly no
exception to that standing rule of thumb. Just don't take any Yehudis
seriously and never trust them.
drahcir
H, how many times in the last few years would you say that I have
PROVEN you a liar? How about the last month?
This is incendiary stuff.
Oh yes, incendiary, kinda like making you look like an idiot is
sociopathic. H, your problem is you don't have enough excitement in
your life.
coaster132000
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:45:20 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>
>
>
coaster132000
>
>
>
Never, Ratner. Not once. It is you who lies and deflects. Your Talmud
encourages it.
last_per...@yahoo.com
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:45:20 -0800 (PST), coaster132000
>
>
>
Zero times ratboy. The only thing ratboy proves is the ZioNazi rep
for lying,
which is legion.
last_per...@yahoo.com
The fact that it remains their "holy book" pretty much says it all
doesn't it.
last_per...@yahoo.com
Criminally insane is an apt term. And some of the ZioNazi's most
vicious
critics are some Jews themselves, not surprisingly.
Zev
news:d72bd0fc-25f9-414e...@d12g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
Very nice response, but wasted on these nincompoops.
Reminds me of one of Omar Khayyam's poems
in which he mentions, among others,
people who don't know that they don't know.
Tell it like it is.
Ariadne
Things are fine thank you. I hope they
are looking up with you.
Double Gloucester - guesstimate: $8.
But petrol - I paid almost $11 per gallon the other day.
dsharavi
lol
Good one.
Deborah
dsharavi
Very sad. You have to wonder what kind of law is practiced in the back
of beyond. Do they still burn witches, I wonder.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 11, 3:39 pm, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > On Mar 11, 12:41 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
>
> > On Mar 11, 3:15 pm, coaster132000 <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > > There is nothing whatever funny about anti-Semitism.
Of course there isn't. What's funny is people who take as their
"gospel truth" the drivel of well-known antisemites, all the while
claming they're none such.
> > >If
> > > Hoffman's compendium from the Talmud and supporting sources are
> > > accurate,
They're not.
> > > In short
> > > whether Hoffman is an anti-Semite and a Holocaust denier is irrelevant
> > > as it does not bear on whether what he says in post no. 1, above, is
> > > the truth.
It certainly does bear on that, and also that Hoffman claims to be the
foremost "scholar" of Judaism "in the Western world", which he clearly
is not.
> > > And if what he says is true or largely so
It isn't
> According to the Talmud, their most holy book, Jews are not required
> to tell the truth to non-Jews.
No, that's the "Talmud" according to Hoffman.
Hoffman's CLAIM 27:
Jews May Lie to Non-Jews Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies
("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
RESPONSE (1)
This is one of the most obvious pieces of out-of-context blather it
has ever been my pleasure to refute. The context is evading a thief.
Yes, you are permitted to lie to a robber --- in particular a crooked
tax collector.
Further down the same page, it not only says that robbing gentiles is
prohibited, it even discusses the derivation of the prohibition.
Here, we have gone beyond going out of context and have entered the
realm of deliberate falsification.
jhert...@ix.netcom.com(Joseph Hertzlinger)
<65lb0o$...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
RESPONSE (2)
Refers to whether a Jew may deceive a Roman tax collector, IIRC (note
that Romans were the occupying force at that time, literally playing
the role of the Sheriff of Nottingham).
behre...@student.uni-kl.de (Reimer Behrends)
RESPONSE (3)
The passage discusses robbers (such as tax collectors who acted
beyond
their legal authority) who have stolen property. The question that
arises is whether it is permitted to use subterfuge to circumvent
their thievery. In a long legal discussion, the entire thrust of
which
is that any form of stealing from heathens is forbidden, the
following
statement is brought forward for consideration: "we use subterfuges
to
circumvent him [a heathen; this is one opinion] ... but Rabbi Akiva
said that we should not attempt to circumvent him on account of the
sanctification of the Name". The Talmud continues and notes that
Rabbi
Akiva forbids subterfuges not only on account of desecration of G-d's
name, but also because theft from a non-Jew is absolutely forbidden
by
biblical law. The Talmud continues to explain that even the opinion
which is rejected does not condone outright theft which is absolutely
forbidden according to all opinions.
The Talmudic passage here is a well-known one which makes the point
sthat the "law of the land is the law", that is, the civil and
commercial law of the nations in which Jews reside is binding on
them.
The conclusions to be drawn from this passage, as noted by the
commentator Meiri, some 700 years ago are as follows:
"We find that it is forbidden to steal even from idol worshippers and
those who do not have any kind of legal system and if a Jew is sold
to
them [as a slave] it is forbidden for him to leave their service
without payment, and it is forbidden to refrain from repaying a loan
received from them but one is not required to expend efforts to find
and return their lost articles, and in fact one who simply finds
their
lost articles is not required to return them .... since return of
lost
articles is an act of extraordinary kindness [in places where
'finders-keepers' is the rule] and we are not required to show this
extraordinary kindness to those who live without laws, but in any
event ... in the case of a lost article it should be returned if
there
is any chance of desecration of G-d's name by failing to do so ....
but for all those who have any kind of legal and religious system at
all of any type even though their faith is far from our own, they are
not [referred to] in these laws, rather they are in all respects as
Jews for these matters, both as to lost articles, or to mistakes and
to all the other matters without exception."
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
RESPONSE (4)
This passage shares the same footnote as Baba Kamma 37b, discussed
above. What is at issue is the principle of legal recipricocity:
As Canaanites did not recognize the laws of social justice, they did
not impose any liablitity for damage done by cattle. They could
consequently not claim to be protected by a law they neither
recognized nor respected... In ancient Israel as in the modern state
the legislation regulating the protection of life and property of the
stranger was... on the basis of reciprocity. Where such reciprocity
was not recognized, the stranger could not claim to enjoy the same
protection of the law as the citizen.
David S. Maddison (maddi...@connexus.net.au)
RESPONSE (5)
A footnote to the passage above refers to the previous footnote. In
other words, this is a case of legal non-reciprocity. That this
passage is directly related to the preceding one, is apparent from
the
full citation:
Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can
justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and
say: 'This is _our_ law'; also if you can justify him by the laws of
the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is
_your_law'; but if this cannot be done, we use subterfuges to
circumvent him. This is the view of R. Ishmael, but R. Akiba said
that
we should not attempt to circumvent him on account of the
sanctification of the Name.
Note that an opposing opinion is quoted in the very next sentence
after the one cited by Mr. Hoffman -- he could not have missed it! R.
Akiba's opinion, the one Mr. Hoffman does not see fit to mention, is
the one that is accepted as the rule. The reason given, "the
sanctification of the Name," means that a heathen must not be goaded
into cursing against God.
Neither does Mr. Hoffman see fit to mention the very narrow
circumstances in which R. Ishmael sees subterfuge as warranted.
Nevertheless, as R. Ishmael's opinion is not accepted, R. Ishmael
himself would be required to follow R. Akiba's rule. (The strict
adherence of the talmudic rabbis to majority rule is even affirmed by
another of Mr. Hoffman's "citations" in this same article -- the
story
of R. Akiba washing his hands before a meal when he had hardly enough
water to drink -- but I will not be getting around to discussing that
one in this post.)
This particular talmudic discussion continues a few lines down:
Is then the robbery of a heathen permissible? Has it not been taught
that R. Simeon stated that the following matter was expounded by R.
Akiba when he arrived from Zifirin: 'Whence can we learn that the
robbery of a heathen is forbidden? From the significant words: _After
that he is sold he may be redeemed again,_ which implies that he
could
not withdraw and leave him [without paying the redemption money].
That is, an Israelite may not be freed from servitude to a Gentile
without paying compensation to the Gentile.
The debate ends with an affirmation of R. Akiba's view. R. Bibi b.
Giddal, R. Simeon the pious, and R. Huna agree, "The robbery of a
heathen is prohibited..." A footnote to this last passage delivers
the
knockput punch:
...v. also Tosef. B.K. X,8 where it is stated that it is more
criminal
to rob a Canaanite than to rob an Israelite...
(The abbreviation, Tosef., stands for _Tosefta_, a commentary on the
Talmud, and B.K. stands for Baba Kamma.)
In spite of which, Mr. Hoffman has the audacity, the unmitigated
gall,
and the _chutzpah_ to make up subtitles for his "citations" such as,
"Jews May Steal from Non-Jews" and "Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews!"
>From Usenet message http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=367956729
> This is incendiary stuff.
It's bullshit.
>How could
> this characteristic not tend to create animosity among people who deal
> with them? It must contribute to anti-Semitism. It couldn't be
> otherwise.
The fake quotes certainly do contribute to antsemitism; that's their
purpose.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 12, 8:00 am, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On Mar 11, 11:51 pm, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 11, 11:37 pm, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Clip
>
> Activists such as Ratner and Sharavi always attack personally but
> never respond to the issue.
Sez the champeen sidedodger of issues on these NGs. In fact, I have
responded countless times to the "issues" raised by Hunter Watson.
That Hunter ignores them, or opts not to respond, or responds then
runs away from facts, does not mean that I don't respond. Witness this
thread, where I've told him countless times that Michael Hoffman's
fake "quotes" are just that, and provided him with evidence.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 12, 11:48 am, coaster132000 <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 12, 8:00 am, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 11, 11:51 pm, mirjam <mir...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 11, 11:37 pm, last_permutat...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Clip
Edited or not, it doesn't change the fact that whether Hunter Watson
elects to ignore responses to the "issues" he raises, or runs away
from them, or responds then runs away, does not mean that no one
responded to his "issues". Witness his dense responses to facts posted
in opposition to his previous nonsense. Hunter elects to go with David
Duke, David Irving, Michael Hoffman, Robert Faurisson, and the like,
because he's firmly in their camp.
Deborah
dsharavi
Bullshit.
Once again --with a few other refutations thrown in, even though
Hunter won't bother to read them:
CLAIM (27)
CLAIM (20)
Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be
killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.
RESPONSE (1)
Nowhere does it say that Jews are divine. In the opinion of one
individual Rabbi, Rabbi Hanina, not the Talmud, a non-Jew who hits a
Jew is worthy of death by the Hand of G-d - there is no room
whatsoever for a Jew to kill him. That is what is written in
Sanhedrin
58b. A Jew who hits a Jew, by comparison, is called wicked and
excluded from Jewish communal life until he apologises (eg. can't be
counted in a Minyan [Mininum size group of 10 men required for
communal prayer.]) which is likewise a form of spiritual death.
Therefore there is no discrimination.
Avraham Hampel
RESPONSE (2)
Misquote. The text doesn't say that he must be killed but that
he's
worthy of death -- an idiomatic phrase referring to death by the hand
of god (struck by lightning etc.). That's because by hitting a man
(made in the image of God) you are marring the image of God. The same
is also said of Jews who simply raise their hand against others, by
the way.
behre...@student.uni-kl.de (Reimer Behrends)
RESPONSE (3)
The correct translation is: "R. Chanina says 'an idol worshipper
who strikes a Jew is liable for death, as it says .... [a proof text
from Exodus 2:12] and if one strikes the jaws of a Jew it is as if he
has struck the jaws of the Shechina as it says in Proverbs ... [a
proof text from Proverbs 20:25 which is based on a play of words]'".
Commentators explain that the phrase 'liable for death' is not a
punishment that is carried out by a human court. It may also be noted
that in Jewish thought the term 'death' when referring to a 'death
penalty' carried out by Heaven may include sickness or poverty, not
necessarily untimely death, and in any event punishment may be
mitigated by factors such as repentance. See [CLAIM 16] above where
this matter is discussed with reference to another passage.
As far as hitting a Jew: Jews bear G-d's name in this world. One
who strikes a Jew because of hatred toward the Jewish people is
striking at those who brought G-d's word to all mankind. The term
"Shechina" refers to the human perception of G-d's presence in this
world, and that perception is one that is intimately related to the
existence and well-being of the Jewish people.
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
CLAIM (21)
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages
owed him for work.
RESPONSE (1)
A Jew must certainly pay a Cuthean the wages owed him for work.
But
because not paying is not the same as stealing, it is not actionable
in a Jewish court. That is what is written in Sanhedrin 57a. Worlds
apart from sanctioning robbery (and besides, one would expect the
non-Jew to be able to make a claim in a non-Jewish court.)
Avraham Hampel
RESPONSE (2)
When I searched for the word "withholding" in the Talmud, I found
that the only other mention of withholding wages was in Baba Metzia
111b. In Baba Metzia 111b, it specifically applies to Amalekites ---
a
nation we are supposedly perpetually at war with. (In the real world,
we haven't been able to identify any Amalekites in centuries.)
jhert...@ix.netcom.com(Joseph Hertzlinger)
<65lb0o$...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
RESPONSE (3)
It is certainly not "OK to cheat non-Jews". In the Tosefta Baba
Kama (10:8) we are taught: "It is more grievous to steal from a
non-Jew than from a Jew because of the desecration of G-d's name".
In Sanhedrin 57a the Talmud discusses the Noahide laws which are
binding on all non-Jews. It specifically examines the source of the
prohibition against holding back wages. Such practice is forbidden to
everyone - both Jew and non-Jew - but the biblical source of this
prohibition is different for Jews and non-Jews.
Jews are prohibited from holding back wages by specific verses in
the bible (Lev. 19:13; Deut. 24:14) which impose this prohibition
only
on Jews. These verses specifically prohibit Jews from holding back
wages from anyone, whether Jew or non-Jew (Rambam, positive
commandment #200).
For non-Jews the biblical source for this prohibition is the verse
generally prohibiting non-Jews from stealing.
In this passage the Talmud examines the prohibition of withholding
wages with reference only to the scriptural passage prohibiting
non-Jews from such behavior. The proper translation of the passage is
this:
"holding back wages - a Cuthean [who does this] to a Cuthean -
prohibited [by the verse prohibiting non-Jews from stealing]; a Jew
to
a Cuthean - permitted [by this verse, but prohibited by other verses
which specifically prohibit a Jew from holding back wages].
It may be noted that there are other situations where Jews are
forbidden to do something by one verse and Gentiles are forbidden the
same action by a different verse.
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
CLAIM (28)
Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.
RESPONSE (1)
False. It does not say this.
What is at issue in this passage is the status of the children of
a
Gentile woman who converts to Judaism. Essentially, it finds a legal
loophole which makes it clear that her children will carry no stigma
from having had an uncircumcised father. The logic is similar to that
in the graveyard example above.
bueh...@nospa.m.space.mit.edu (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
RESPONSE (2)
Such statements do not exist. On this page the Talmud considers
whether converts are considered relatives of their biological kin
from
the point of view of enforcing upon them the strictures of Jewish law
regarding forbidden marriages. The Talmud quotes one lenient opinion
(in the end rejected) to the effect that these strictures should not
apply to converts because their blood relationship before marriage is
not considered to carry over to their new status as Jews. In the
manner of the agada this ruling was pinned on the verse in Ezekiel
(23;20) "... for their flesh is as the flesh of donkeys ..." referred
to in item [CLAIM 19a] above. Refer to the discussion under that
heading for more details on the use of this verse and the way it is
applied to Jews as well as to non-Jews.
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
CLAIM (35)
Horrible Blasphemy of Our Lord Gittin 57a . Says Jesus (see footnote
#4) is being boiled "hot excrement".
RESPONSE (1)
Nope. The name "Yeshu" occurs in only one edition - probably written
in by one scribe with a grudge. The actual text concerns "Balaam" -
and the story is being told by a rabbi who, as I understand it, died
before Jesus was even born.
bueh...@nospa.m.space.mit.edu (Royce Buehler)
<5iroi7$...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
RESPONSE (2)
In the standard Talmud this remarkable passage of agada is based on
the vision of a non-Jew, Onkelos, who later converted to Judaism:
"Onkelos the son of Kalonikos the nephew of Titus wished to convert."
The Talmud relates that he used witchcraft to raise Titus, his wicked
uncle, from the dead and asked him whether he should convert to
Judaism. His uncle was so filled with hatred against the Jews that he
advised his nephew to be hostile to them, despite the fact that they
are so close to G-d and despite the fierce punishment he endured
after
his death for his own hostility to Israel. Onkelos then called up
Bilaam who had similar comments. Then he raised up 'the sinners of
Israel' who advised him to join Israel since anyone who troubled the
Jews is considered as if he troubled G-d. Onkelos asked what
punishment the sinners of Israel had to endure and was told
they were judged in boiling excrement as is fitting for all those
who ridicule the words of the sages.
It may indeed be the case that there are manuscripts which name Yeshu
HaNotzri as one of the sinners of Israel in the context of this
passage but it is not clear who that person was (see item
[CLAIM 34] above).
More generally it may be said that while Judaism differs sharply from
Christianity in many matters of theology and interpretation of
historical events, attacking the founder of the Christian faith as a
wicked person is not a central or even peripheral element of Jewish
theology.
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
HTH, but it probably won't.
Deborah
dsharavi
I know the quote. It's often attributed to Omar Khayyam, but also
mentioned as a Persian proverb.
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool. Shun
him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child. Teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep. Wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a leader. Follow him.
Deborah
dsharavi
I pay almost that for <sob> a quarter pound.
>
> But petrol - I paid almost $11 per gallon the other day.
That's awful. And I thought 3.29/gal was bad.
Deborah
drahcir
Poor HHW, aka iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
cannot cope with reality so must retreat into his fantasy world where
he has never been proven a liar, "not once", and "my" talmud
encourages lying. H, guess what - your statement above is just two
more lies. Either that or your alzheimers has completely decimated
your short and mid-term memory. Here, I'll refresh it. This is from
about a week ago. It's cool because it proves you not only a liar, but
also an antisemite. You fled from this post, H, because you had no
refutation. That is confirmation that my proof is valid. It's just one
of many, as every regular here, INCLUDING YOU, knows.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.israel/msg/bae3d8e97aea3ded
So, now, when you above said "not once", were you lying, or did you
just have a memory lapse. WHICH IS IT? And I've been asking you
regularly why you've had 5 aliases here, and denied that it was you
until you simply had to give up. Each time that happened, it was a lie
as well. You are such a disgusting creature, you have no idea what
truth is - lying is positively second nature to you. Actually, maybe
that's the answer - you're so sick and vile, you are completely
unaware that a significant proportion of the statements you make is
lies.
As to your accusation against me, I've repeatedly asked you for proof,
and you can supply none. That is because it is, of course, a lie.
drahcir
serial liar, what he says about the talmud or anything else is utterly
ignorable, except for entertainment purposes.
drahcir
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mar 11, 12:41 pm, Ariadne <ariadne....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 11, 9:03 am, Truth and honesty <Tr...@honest.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Lie no 132000 by coaster132000
>>
>> Is that all?
>>
>> It's very funny whom he finds and takes as "gospel"!
>
>There is nothing whatever funny about anti-Semitism.
Actually, when it's practiced by ignoramuses such as yourself, it can
be pretty hilarious. H, everyone here knows you are clueless with
regard to judaism, israel, etc. What you do, absolutely like a child,
is scour the internet to find sources that confirm your hatred of
jews. It's so very simple. You ignore the mounds of data that prove
the talmud idiots like hoffman wrong, and blithely post his blather in
your ignorant, alzheimic fog. Yes, it's pretty funny.
mirjam
> > Last Permutation
> > Do you pray to court room discussion minutes?
>
> Very nice response, but wasted on these nincompoops.
> Reminds me of one of Omar Khayyam's poems
> in which he mentions, among others,
> people who don't know that they don't know.
Zev , some years passed since i read my Omar Khayyam songs ,,
By the way have you seen the New translation of a collection 1001
Nights, By Dr. Hannah Amit Kochavy, The second volume is as wonderful
as the first volume.
mirjam
Ira Jackson
"dsharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a76f0d7b-54b6-4d09...@i39g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
You again provide evidence of your fear by way of attacking the messenger.
I'm going to hang about here a bit longer and watch you people
self-destruct. Whatever it is you're hoping to achieve regarding defence of
Jews and all things Jewish, you are failing miserably. Your efforts are
counter-productive. Please continue.
dsharavi
It is that! "If what Hoffman says about the Talmud is true...."
"If what Hoffman says about his offering of shares in a certain
bridge..."
Deborah
Ira Jackson
On Mar 12, 8:06 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> sheesh, what a waste of bandwidth. H has no credibility, he's a proven
> serial liar, what he says about the talmud or anything else is utterly
> ignorable, except for entertainment purposes.
>It is that! "If what Hoffman says about the Talmud is true...."
You are attempting to defend the indefensible.
Wated effort. Your lot have spent thousands of years trying to spin your
disgusting religion into something tolerable, but have failed miserably.
drahcir
wrote:
>
>"dsharavi" <dsha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2358a947-cb26-4efa...@x8g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>On Mar 12, 8:06 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>> sheesh, what a waste of bandwidth. H has no credibility, he's a proven
>> serial liar, what he says about the talmud or anything else is utterly
>> ignorable, except for entertainment purposes.
>
>>It is that! "If what Hoffman says about the Talmud is true...."
>
>You are attempting to defend the indefensible.
>
>Wated effort.
You are attempting to sound informed and intelligent. Better luck next
time.
Your lot have spent thousands of years trying to spin your
>disgusting religion into something tolerable, but have failed miserably.
>
WAY more Nobels than any other religious or racial group. The other
cool thing is, cretins like you don't seem to spring up very often in
jews. Obviously they have a superior gene pool.
drahcir
wrote:
>
Do you ever say anything with any meaning? Or is it just "jews suck"?
ad nauseam, as is evidently the case? If you've already blown your
wad, I suggest saving bandwidth by simply replying to all posters with
"js" - everyone will understand, it's just the cretin again.
Jason P
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:45:10 +1000, "Ira Jackson" <i...@ijlog.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
Well... Jews DO...! They're arrogant, insensitive to other non-Jew
sensibilities, gross liars, self promoters, and self interested in
only what profits Jews as a whole. ...Pretty sucky!
FACT: "Jews only care about what's good for the Jews.... "
I've come to realize a few things about them. The Jews are steeped in
pervasive self-promotion and unbounded self-interest; they lie like no
tomorrow and like god-damned thieves.
Those are the real facts, and until the Jews change, nothing else
will.
IOW: Jews suck!
drahcir
Jase, when you say "they", to whom, specifically, are you referring?
Jason P
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:04:32 -0700 (PDT), Jason P
>
>
[SSNNIIPP]
>
> >> Do you ever say anything with any meaning? Or is it just "jews suck"?
> >> ad nauseam, as is evidently the case? If you've already blown your
> >> wad, I suggest saving bandwidth by simply replying to all posters with
> >> "js" - everyone will understand, it's just the cretin again.
>
> >Well... Jews DO...! They're arrogant, insensitive to other non-Jew
> >sensibilities, gross liars, self promoters, and self interested in
> >only what profits Jews as a whole. ...Pretty sucky!
>
> Jase, when you say "they", to whom, specifically, are you referring?
>
>
>
> > FACT: "Jews only care about what's good for the Jews.... "
>
> >I've come to realize a few things about them. The Jews are steeped in
> >pervasive self-promotion and unbounded self-interest; they lie like no
> >tomorrow and like god-damned thieves.
>
> >Those are the real facts, and until the Jews change, nothing else
> >will.
>
> >IOW: Jews suck!
Well Ratnose, if you read the whole reply, it begins and ends with
"Jews" as a topic and specific subject. It's in ordinary plain
English.
You've heard of 'CONTEXT' haven't you? ...Meaning and subject/topic
carries through in general topical continuity, more or less based on
the preceding/current subject matter. So, take a wild guess.
If I were to "guess..." I'd say it was the Yehudis.
Your reading skills are suspect. But that's no surprise is it?
Zev
c776-4cb5-8b5...@k15g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
My translation, as I remember it, is slightly different,
but that's the one I was thinking of.
I've loved it since I first read it, years ago.
drahcir
<jas...@netscape.net> wrote:
>On Mar 13, 10:14 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 09:04:32 -0700 (PDT), Jason P
>>
>>
>
>[SSNNIIPP]
>
>>
>> >> Do you ever say anything with any meaning? Or is it just "jews suck"?
>> >> ad nauseam, as is evidently the case? If you've already blown your
>> >> wad, I suggest saving bandwidth by simply replying to all posters with
>> >> "js" - everyone will understand, it's just the cretin again.
>>
>> >Well... Jews DO...! They're arrogant, insensitive to other non-Jew
>> >sensibilities, gross liars, self promoters, and self interested in
>> >only what profits Jews as a whole. ...Pretty sucky!
>>
>> Jase, when you say "they", to whom, specifically, are you referring?
>>
>>
>>
>> > FACT: "Jews only care about what's good for the Jews.... "
>>
>> >I've come to realize a few things about them. The Jews are steeped in
>> >pervasive self-promotion and unbounded self-interest; they lie like no
>> >tomorrow and like god-damned thieves.
>>
>> >Those are the real facts, and until the Jews change, nothing else
>> >will.
>>
>> >IOW: Jews suck!
>
>Well Ratnose, if you read the whole reply, it begins and ends with
>"Jews" as a topic and specific subject. It's in ordinary plain
>English.
Jase, you're getting ahead of yourself, and who could blame you? You
have above replied to...YOURSELF. Once you figure out who said what in
the thread, maybe you'll be able to talk about things like context, as
you hilariously attempt to below. Until then, learn the meaning of
>'s and get back to me when you've thoroughly assimilated it. After
that, you can try replying WITH A REPLY, i.e. to the single line that
I wrote, quoted above:
"Jase, when you say "they", to whom, specifically, are you referring?"
Simple question, right? Certainlyi wouldn't be confusing to most
people, but you seem totallyi befuddled by it. Now, try to relax, take
whatever psychotropic drugs have been prescribed for you, and if you
decide to reply, then REPLY. Anything else and you're just affirming
what an idiot you are.
Zev
news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
a783-102...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
> the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
> contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
> capable of it.
Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
the environment in which it was written,
the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
To what end?
You've been shown that your source is a lie,
what do you hope to gain by going this way?
Christian history is violent and bloody,
anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
You won't understand the countless wars,
the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
and you certainly won't understand
anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
Introspection might help you, Hunter,
but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
coaster132000
> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
> a783-102abae57...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
> > contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
> > capable of it.
>
> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
> the environment in which it was written,
> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
Don't change the subject. It was whether Jewish culture and religion
*contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> To what end?
My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in Judaism,
Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
democratic system for determination of the national interest in
foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars, great
suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not silence
us, Zev. We've gone way beyond that era. Without an end to the Zionist
gaming and deceit here in America Israel is going to be in greater and
greater danger both here and in your region. You should put an end to
it as a matter of principle. A test of your character is just how
troubling you find that proposition and why.
> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
>
> Christian history is violent and bloody,
> anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
Love or hate. Take your pick.
Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
existed before Christianity had any power in the West. Where did that
ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
the literature of the ancient world. Is it still coming from the same
sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
> You won't understand the countless wars,
> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
> and you certainly won't understand
> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
The Talmud provides evidence. There is much more. I have alluded to it
above. To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
in daily life--if at all.
> Introspection might help you, Hunter,
> but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
drahcir
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
>My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
I just want to make sure everyone got this. H, or patricia, or
whatever's primary end in this thread about how the Talmud is
responsible for antisemitism has to do with US foreign policy. In case
there is anyone reading this who is just too dense to see the glaring,
manifold connections between the Talmud and US foreign policy, be sure
and ask HHW, aka iconoaclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
and he will be more than happy to assist you.
AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
coaster132000
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:09 -0700 (PDT), coaster132000
>
>
> <snip>
>
> >My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
>
> I just want to make sure everyone got this. H, or patricia, or
> whatever's primary end in this thread about how the Talmud is
> responsible for antisemitism has to do with US foreign policy. In case
> there is anyone reading this who is just too dense to see the glaring,
> manifold connections between the Talmud and US foreign policy, be sure
> and ask HHW, aka iconoaclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
> and he will be more than happy to assist you.
Thank you for the invitation to speak past your malicious failures of
comprehension, Ratner. Your tactical sense is always based on
guesswork. I'll show you why you're no good at this.
First a little context. I'll divide it into parts so you are neither
confused nor able to confuse:
Were it not for the self-destructive and politically supine nature of
our relationship with the Jewish State, forced upon us by the Israel
Lobby, we would still have a low profile, off-shore balancing policy
in the Middle-East and there would almost certainly have been no
9/11.
But for 9/11 we would obviously not have invaded Afghanistan.
Again, but for the politically prostrate relationship with Israel and
9/11 coupled with political subterfuge from Sharon's office and the
Lobby's corruption of our Congress, it is very doubtful that Bush and
Cheney could have generated the political momentum to invade Iraq.
These adventures based on the obviously unnatural nature of our
relationship with Zionist Israel have destroyed our credibility and
leadership capacity globally. They bankrupted us in a mere six or
seven years. What was used to effect this disaster of American policy?
What was misused which could have had this effect?
I personally find it repugnant that non-Jewish Americans are routinely
punished here for past European crimes against Jews. We did not
perpetrate them. We bear no guilt for them. We shouldn't be fighting
wars against Israel's enemies because of them. Provided we decide in
democratic fashion to assist in her defense, it should be on our terms
and must not be coerced politically by her conflicted agents here in
this country.
The punishment I refer to comes in the form of public humiliation and
intimidation of any politically visible "Goy" who criticizes Israeli
policy, military aggression, spying or who calls for the reining-in
of the unregistered Israel Lobby which has corrupted our Congress on
matters related to the Middle East. The first tactic is the public
smear with allegations of anti-Semitism. It's a major league version
of what you and sharavi do here. There is no requirement whatever that
they be based in fact. That's not the point. The purpose is to shut
down public criticism of Israel and it's Lobby. The punishment often
includes the destruction of the target's livlihood and profession. It
paralyses politicians with fear of losing their careers. It can
bankrupt businesses. What's the purpose? To prevent a reconsideration
of the essentially parasitic nature of our relationship with Israel.
It's also to protect virtually automatic diplomatic and financial
support which are obviously contrary to our national interests.
Accusations of anti-Semitism are potent because of the Holocaust which
we Americans did not perpetrate. It did not even happen on our
continent. Their use in American politics is abusive. I don't expect
these abuses of our political system to stop soon because coupled with
obscene amounts of money they work, they intimidate and silence and
principle seems not to be in play. But how well they work is dependent
to some extent on what people know of anti-Semitism's origins.
Zionist activists such as Zev blame one hundred percent of anti-
Semitism on Christian violence and bigotry. They get more and more
agitated if the question of Jewish sources of it come up. I don't
believe that can sustain close examination. I think anti-semitism has
a contributing source within Jewish culture and religion.
Of course this is an absolutely forbidden subject. Were we to study
some other minority which is subject to prejudice here in the US there
would be no intimidation, no instant screaming and in your face
confrontations. Resentment perhaps but no aggression. With Jews it's a
different matter. It would seem that it's because their use of it has
been politicized and is a major asset in the present. Anything which
would diminish that asset's value is to be struggled against. It's the
diminution of its value which interests me.
The Talmud is central to Judaism. It and the Bible contain contain
prejudicial and discriminatory material which is overtly hostile to
and contemptuous of non-Jews. It apparently encourages attitudes and
behavior which conflict with majority values and are *in practice* in
daily life likely to be offensive to individual Westerners so
charmingly referred to as the "Goyim". Talmudic learning is central to
Rabbinical studies and is a part of the education of young people in
Jewish communities. Thus it must perpetuate cultural conflict
regarding matters of discrimination, ethics and morals. Accordingly,
WHATEVER THE JUSTICE OF IT AND WHATEVER THE PROPORTION, I propose that
it must have a tendency to alienate out-group people and therefore
*contributes* to anti-Semitism.
This is not a new issue. Israel Shahak has contributed a lot to it. If
he can display an interest in it so can I. To force it out on the
table, to legitimize discussion of it in public, can only contribute
to blunting the value of accusations of anti-Semitism in punishing
people and shutting down debate in American politics. We need that
badly. You for example make accusations of anti-Semitism virutally
every day. It is hypocritical for Jewish activists to impose 100
percent of the blame for anti-Semitism upon Christians and at the same
time demand that we support Israeli aggression silently whether we
like it or not, a pattern which generates anti-Semitism as we speak.
Shedding light on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism would be a
stepping stone to the goal of emancipating our Middle Eastern policy
from its present Zionist choke hold. It would diminish the value of
the anti-Semitism card. A problem with the present relationship is
that only one side plays hardball. That's got to stop. And when it
does your activists will be making a lot of new calculations. For
example I'd have my Attorney General send a notice to AIPAC: "Register
as the agent for a foreign power or go out of business thirty days
from yesterday. If you do neither prosecutions of your senior staff
will begin will begin immediately."
drahcir
<coaste...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Mar 14, 3:46 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:09 -0700 (PDT), coaster132000
>>
>> <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> >My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
>>
>> I just want to make sure everyone got this. H, or patricia, or
>> whatever's primary end in this thread about how the Talmud is
>> responsible for antisemitism has to do with US foreign policy. In case
>> there is anyone reading this who is just too dense to see the glaring,
>> manifold connections between the Talmud and US foreign policy, be sure
>> and ask HHW, aka iconoaclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
>> and he will be more than happy to assist you.
WhOA! Will ya just look at the huge, steaming mound of HHWBabble
below? H, or patricia, or whatever, did you honestly "think" that I or
anyone else here is going to read your ridiculous crap? In case
anyone is interested, a simple copy and paste into any modern word
processor will, upon a word count, yield a tidy sum of ONE THOUSAND
ELEVEN words below, explaining how the antisemitic ignoramus HHW, aka
iconoclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster believes the
Talmud is responsible for US foreign policy. Of course, (s)he has not
only never read one word of the Talmud, except distortions on nazi
websites, but even if he did sometime, would obviously not hiave a
cluie as to what it meant. It it was unclear to a soul out there that
you are nothing but a withered, sour, senile antisemite with nothing
but time on his hands to disparage jews, I'm sure that is no longer
the case. So thank you, too.
Zev
dc3f3e...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 13, 4:07 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
>> a783-102abae57...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
>> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
>> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
>> > contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
>> > capable of it.
>>
>> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
>> the environment in which it was written,
>> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>
> Don't change the subject.
Can you read the title?
Here, I'll repeat it for you:
"The Talmud on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism".
Did you see the word "Talmud"?
> It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
Shakespeare (who never saw a Jew in his life)
wrote nasty things about Jews because they
had misbehaved with him one time too many?
Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
Hunter, get a grip.
>> To what end?
>
> My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
> detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in Judaism,
> Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
> would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
> handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
> States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
> are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
> democratic system for determination of the national interest in
> foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
> illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars, great
> suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not silence
> us, Zev. We've gone way beyond that era. Without an end to the Zionist
> gaming and deceit here in America Israel is going to be in greater and
> greater danger both here and in your region. You should put an end to
> it as a matter of principle. A test of your character is just how
> troubling you find that proposition and why.
A test of your character would be to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
>> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>
> All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
> regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
> to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
> worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
> your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
Start with Baba Kamma.
Analyze the text.
Show us how, in light of the comments you've been shown,
it causes anti-Semitism.
>> Christian history is violent and bloody,
>> anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
>
> The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
> often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
> case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
> significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
> power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
> ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
> yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
> affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
> Love or hate. Take your pick.
I assume you accept my claim.
> Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
> history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
> existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
Maybe it's a genetic thing,
or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
> Where did that
> ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
> the literature of the ancient world. Is it still coming from the same
> sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
> that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
> for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
> worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
No problem with the question.
In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
(in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
of the perpetrators.
>> You won't understand the countless wars,
>> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
>> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
>> and you certainly won't understand
>> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>
> The Talmud provides evidence. There is much more. I have alluded to it
> above. To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
> characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
> the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
> Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
> people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
> involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
> simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
> in daily life--if at all.
Hunter, you're on to something here,
"daily life" is the place to look,
but you have to be a really good historian to do it.
>> Introspection might help you, Hunter,
>> but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
>
> High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
> native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
> wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
> apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
> embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
> you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
> history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
> abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
1.8% of the population, divided against itself in ways
you're not aware of, wagging the rest into war and
insolvency by dragging them into my criminal history?
And you ask me who the hell I think I am?
someone-who-knows
Ira Jackson <i...@ijlog.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
Here are names, addresses, e-mails and more details of
American "revisionists", taken directly from David Irving's
hacked website:
coaster132000
> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> dc3f3eba6...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Mar 13, 4:07 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
> >> a783-102abae57...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> >> > On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> >> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
> >> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
> >> > contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
> >> > capable of it.
>
> >> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
> >> the environment in which it was written,
> >> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>
> > Don't change the subject.
>
> Can you read the title?
> Here, I'll repeat it for you:
> "The Talmud on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism".
> Did you see the word "Talmud"?
I'll wait until you actually say something.
> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
> ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
This isn't going to turn on whether medieval illiterates could read
the Talmud or whether you will succeed in painting Jewish contempt for
Christians especially but other Goyim too as garden variety
ethnocentrism. It has to do with the influence of the Talmud on Jews
whether direct or through the Rabbinate. The Talmud, sir, has Christ
boiling in a cauldron of shit. Such is not designed to endear Jews to
Christians.
Everyone who reads this post should make a point of bookmarking the
url above and distributing it to thoughtful friends. It comes from
inside Israel and was written by a Holocaust survivor. It is critical
to read it for yourselves. A great effort will be made by the Zionist
activists here to defame the author. Be sure to read it.
The depth of historic Jewish contempt for and hatred of Christianity
and Christians is shocking. It is *far greater* than Jewish hatred of
Islam, a fact which does bear on the level of deceit inherent in what
Richard Ratner has attempted to do on usenet on behalf, would you
believe, of an American war against Islam per se.
> Shakespeare (who never saw a Jew in his life)
> wrote nasty things about Jews because they
> had misbehaved with him one time too many?
Shakespeare was a learned artist. I'm willing to hear-out Shylock in
this context. Shall we extract his speeches from the Merchant of
Venice to see what we may learn in light of Professor Shahak's book
cited above: Jewish History,Jewish Religion-The Weight of Three
Thousand Years, which I re-read last night and this morning?
> Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
Here's my passage regarding deceit:
> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
The deceit, sir, lies in your bland denial that Jewish culture and
religion contribute to anti-Semitism while simultaneously using
accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
moral compass.
> Hunter, get a grip.
Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
Soloman Ratner?
While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
> >> To what end?
>
> > My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
> > detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in Judaism,
> > Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
> > would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
> > handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
> > States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
> > are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
> > democratic system for determination of the national interest in
> > foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
> > illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars "of choice", great
> > suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not silence
> > us, Zev. We've gone way beyond that era. Without an end to the Zionist
> > gaming and deceit here in America Israel is going to be in greater and
> > greater danger both here and in your region. You should put an end to
> > it as a matter of principle. A test of your character is just how
> > troubling you find that proposition and why.
>
> A test of your character would be to tell the truth,
> the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Do you understand what I told you about deceit?
> >> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
> >> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>
> > All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
> > regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
> > to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
> > worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
> > your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
>
> Start with Baba Kamma.
> Analyze the text.
> Show us how, in light of the comments you've been shown,
> it causes anti-Semitism.
Read Shahak to see it in context. EVERYONE SHOULD READ SHAHAK.
BOOKMARK IT ABOVE.
>
> >> Christian history is violent and bloody,
> >> anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
>
> > The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
> > often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
> > case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
> > significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
> > power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
> > ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
> > yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
> > affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
> > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>
> I assume you accept my claim.
You are confused.
> > Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
> > history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
> > existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
>
> Maybe it's a genetic thing,
> or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
It's not a fit subject for any form of humor, but at least you admit
it existed and that you can not blame it exclusively on Christianity.
Thank God for that!
> > Where did that
> > ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
> > the literature of the ancient world. Is it still coming from the same
> > sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
> > that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
> > for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
> > worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
>
> No problem with the question.
> In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
> (in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
> of the perpetrators.
Fine, put it to the surviving Nazis. We Americans are not your
perpetrators though you nevertheless treat us as if we bear the
stigmata. We don't. Get that through your head. You must by now
understand it whether you are permitted to admit it or not.
I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
it. I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
that blunt enough?
> >> You won't understand the countless wars,
> >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
> >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
> >> and you certainly won't understand
> >> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>
> > The Talmud provides evidence. There is much more. I have alluded to it
> > above. To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
> > characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
> > the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
> > Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
> > people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
> > involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
> > simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
> > in daily life--if at all.
>
> Hunter, you're on to something here,
> "daily life" is the place to look,
> but you have to be a really good historian to do it.
Explain your view, please.
> >> Introspection might help you, Hunter,
> >> but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
>
> > High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
> > native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
> > wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
> > apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
> > embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
> > you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
> > history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
> > abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
>
> 1.8% of the population, divided against itself in ways
> you're not aware of, wagging the rest into war and
> insolvency by dragging them into my criminal history?
It's the corporate you, Zev. You're a Zionist activist in Israel. You
defend the regime. The regime has blood on its hands, American blood.
> And you ask me who the hell I think I am?
Yes.
coaster132000
Into the archive.
dsharavi
>>the environment in which it was written,
>>the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>
>Don't change the subject. It was whether Jewish culture and religion
>*contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
>opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims.
If so, then, why did Hunter title the thread "The TALMUD on the Jewish
contribution..."?
<So far as I am
>concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
>latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
>attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
>own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
Once again, Hunter attempts to palm off his assumptions by making a
series of logically impermissible inferences. He attributes to the
argument his predetermined and false conclusions, instead of
addressing the real questions, and rails against non-existent
situations.
>>To what end?
>
>My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
Load of balls.Hunter has no interest in foreign policy, except when he
thinks Jews are involved. The all-powerful oil lobby, the Arab lobby,
the agribusiness lobby, don't even register on his somewhat limited
radar.
>I have no interest in Judaism,
>Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it.
That's why he entitled this thread "The TALMUD on JEWISH contribution
to antisemitism (a standard antisemitic canard, very similar to the
"You girls ask for it" ratiocination for rape.
>My attitude toward Israel
>would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
>handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
>States since the end of the Cold War.
Therefore, Hunter thinks the government should institute a series of
witch hunts, tantamount to those instigated by McCarthy.
[flush manure]
>>You've been shown that your source is a lie,
>>what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>
>All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
>regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
>to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
>worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
>your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
A 'smoke screen'? I gave the opinions of a rabbi and several Talmud
scholars on the oft-parroted "Baba Kamma" 13a canard. Naturally,
Hunter elects to believe the white power/neo-Nazi propaganda, rather
than look at the text on its own merits.
>>Christian history is violent and bloody,
>>anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
>
>The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
>often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
>case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
>significantly religious.
Hah.
>Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
>history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny.
"In 1215 by a decree of the Fourth Lateran Council the
Church, then at the height of its power, took a leaf from the
Caliphs' book and ordered Jews to wear a distinguishing
form of dress. The distinctive yellow patch, horned cap and
other emblems of "Cain" invited the hostility of those who
saw the Jews as the "murderers of Christ." In 1233 a papal
bull forbade any religious discussion on religious matters."
"Anti-Semitic feeling for a long time remained largely con-
fined to the lower levels of the population, the underdogs of
town and country. It was the preaching of the Mendicants
and of other religions that spread the infection, particularly
in the towns. The failure of Christianity to cure the peoples
of Europe of their deep-seated hatreds and anxieties, in
itself perhaps the most momentous fact about Europe's in-
ner history during these avowedly Christian centuries,
weighted the odds still further against the Jews. Popular
tension was all the more dangerous for being wedded to
ignorance: every abortion, animal or human, every fatal ac-
cident to a child, every famine and epidemic, was presumed
to be the work of an evil-doer. Until they had been eliminat-
ed the Jews were the obvious culprits; afterwards it was
women, witches. Many Jewish communities were massacred
in the aftermath of the great pestilence which struck Europe*
from 1348 - 1350.
"There is no space here to give an adequate account of the
sufferings of the Jews from the twelfth century onwards, but
the graph of persecution can be roughly sketched. It started
in the towns of France and the Rhineland, where entire
communities were put to death, singing Psalms as their
synagogues burned over their heads. Suspected Jews resorted
to suicide; married and betrothed couples killed one an-
other, as the last office of their love; mothers murdered their
children. Measured in terms of duration, magnitude and
conscious suffering there is nothing in the history of
Europe, or even of the world, to compare with the martyr-
dom of the Jews of medieval Europe. Non-Jewish and
Christian historians should feel it their duty to put the
facts on record."
Frederich Heer, The Medieval World: Europe 1100-1350,
trans. from the German by Janet Sonderheimer, pp 310, 311-12
[*Re: the pestilence; it was worldwide. In Baghdad, it was
said, 4,000 died per day. Unlike Europe, the Caliph ordered
Muslims, Jews, and Christians to assemble with their
respective holy books for communal prayer. The action was
said to have averted the plague. But half Baghdad was still
in ruins half a century later. An estimated 30,000,000 died
in only eight provinces of China. India was said to have
been depopulated.]
>Where did that ancient dislike of Jews come from? There
>are many examples of it in the literature of the ancient world.
If there are "many examples" of ancient antisemitism, it should be
easy to name a few. Naturally, though, Hunter won't.
>If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
>that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
>for it?
Assuming Mars sported intelligent life, of course, and that life could
read English..
>Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
>worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
Jews have looked at the question, long and hard. I gave a list of
several books written on the subject. Naturally, Hunter ignores them.
>>You won't understand the countless wars,
>>the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
>>or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
>>and you certainly won't understand
>>anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>The Talmud provides evidence.
It doesn't.
>There is much more. I have alluded to it above.
Hunter probably means his "allusions" to Hoffman's faked "quotes".
>To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
>characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
>the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
>Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
>people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
>involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness.
"Medieval Christians were very susceptible
to the attractions of Judaism. Admittedly, there are only
isolated instances of individual conversions (not infrequently
of clerics, who found in the God of the Old Testament a
more perfect incarnation of their own idea of God); and
there is no record of the mass conversion of entire popula-
tions and peoples, such as occurred later in Eastern Europe
and on one occasion in southern Italy. The constantly re-
iterated warnings of Councils and Synods against the dangers
arising from contact with Jews and Jewish customs must
clearly have been taken seriously. The reasons for the bar-
rier separating the Jews from their Christian environment
were often those advanced by the papal legate to the Council
of Breslau in 1267: "Since the Poles are a new plantation on
the soil of Christendom, we must continually be on our guard
lest the Christian population here, where the Christian reli-
gion has not as yet taken deep root in the hearts of believers,
succumb to the influence of the counterfeit faith and evil
habits of the Jews living in their midst." The rapid spread of
heresy had already demonstrated clearly enough that Chris-
tian beliefs had only a very precarious hold on the souls
of the masses. In 1270 (three years after the legate's speech
at Breslau) three Jews were killed at Weissenberg in Alsace;
two were Christians converted to Judaism, one of them
"formerly a prior in a Mendicant Order."
"The Jews were at once too close and too remote from their
Christian neighbours. They attracted Christians by their
sturdy piety and intense faith, and repelled them by being
at once too archaic and too advanced. Their tribalism made
them appear so very primitive -- as though they had still not
shaken off the dust of the desert and the burning ashes of
Mount Sinai; -- and yet their enlightened physicians and
educated elite were so very daring and progressive."
Frederich Heer, The Medieval World: Europe 1100-1350,
trans. from the German by Janet Sonderheimer, pp 315-16
>>Introspection might help you, Hunter,
>>but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
>
>High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
>native land for over forty years.
Over forty years? Why not over sixty years?
>The results included fighting your wars
What Arab-Israeli war did we fight?
>and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
>apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
>embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
>you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
>history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
>abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
Obviously, introspection is out of the question. Hunter is most
defintely afraid of what he'll find. The same goes for Hunter's
rejection of facts.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 14, 3:46 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 14 Mar 2011 14:30:09 -0700 (PDT), coaster132000
>
> > <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > >My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
>
> > I just want to make sure everyone got this. H, or patricia, or
> > whatever's primary end in this thread about how the Talmud is
> > responsible for antisemitism has to do with US foreign policy. In case
> > there is anyone reading this who is just too dense to see the glaring,
> > manifold connections between the Talmud and US foreign policy, be sure
> > and ask HHW, aka iconoaclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
> > and he will be more than happy to assist you.
>
> Thank you for the invitation to speak past your malicious failures of
> comprehension, Ratner. Your tactical sense is always based on
> guesswork. I'll show you why you're no good at this.
>
> First a little context. I'll divide it into parts so you are neither
> confused nor able to confuse:
>
> Were it not for the self-destructive and politically supine nature of
> our relationship with the Jewish State, forced upon us by the Israel
> Lobby,
[flush]
What repetitious and redundant rubbish.
Deborah
dsharavi
><snip>
>>My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
>
>I just want to make sure everyone got this. H, or patricia, or
>whatever's primary end in this thread about how the Talmud is
>responsible for antisemitism has to do with US foreign policy. In case
>there is anyone reading this who is just too dense to see the glaring,
>manifold connections between the Talmud and US foreign policy, be sure
>and ask HHW, aka iconoaclast, aka cazador, aka patricia, aka coaster
>and he will be more than happy to assist you.
With a little help from his friends, of course: Michael Hoffman, David
Duke, David Ir ving, Kevin MacDonald, and other assorted racist
antisemitic white powerniks.
HHW let fly another funny one further back: he thought he was replying
to you, when he was really replying to P-Vomit.
>AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
You said it.
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Mar 15, 8:24 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote i
>
> > >> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
> > >> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
> > >> > contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
> > >> > capable of it.
Translation: H is afraid of more facts being presented in opposition
to his secondhand twaddle.
>
> > >> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
> > >> the environment in which it was written,
> > >> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>
> > > Don't change the subject.
>
> > Can you read the title?
> > Here, I'll repeat it for you:
> > "The Talmud on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism".
> > Did you see the word "Talmud"?
>
> I'll wait until you actually say something.
He did. Hunter is simply too ignorant to understand it, preferring, as
he does, to rely on white power/neo-Nazi/anti-semitic propaganda.
> > > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> > > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> > > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> > > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> > > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> > > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> > > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
"In 1215 by a decree of the Fourth Lateran Council the
"Medieval Christians were very susceptible
> > Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
> > ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
>
> This isn't going to turn on whether medieval illiterates could read
> the Talmud or whether you will succeed in painting Jewish contempt for
> Christians especially but other Goyim too as garden variety
> ethnocentrism. It has to do with the influence of the Talmud on Jews
> whether direct or through the Rabbinate.
Hunter hasn't clue one what the Talmud says; now he's trying to assess
its impact on Jews. The phrase "whether direct or through the
Rabbinate" is a direct clue as to Hunter's cluelessness. Naturally,
that doesn't stop him from trying to sound knowledgeable.
>The Talmud, sir, has Christ boiling in a cauldron of shit.
Bullshit.
>Such is not designed to endear Jews to
> Christians.
> http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Israel.Shahak/Jewish.History.Jewis...
Shahak....rotflol. Shahak is one of the falsifiers of Talmudic
passages.
> Everyone who reads this post should make a point of bookmarking the
> url above and distributing it to thoughtful friends.
Attempting to access the URL:
FORTIGUARD
Web Page Blocked
You have tried to access a web page which is in violation of your
internet usage policy.
URL: www.iamthewitness.com/books/Israel.Shahak/Jewish.History.Jewis...
Category: Racism and Hate
>It comes from
> inside Israel and was written by a Holocaust survivor.
Why this should matter is a mystery.
> The depth of historic Jewish contempt for and hatred of Christianity
> and Christians is shocking.
Source?
> > Shakespeare (who never saw a Jew in his life)
> > wrote nasty things about Jews because they
> > had misbehaved with him one time too many?
>
> Shakespeare was a learned artist.
"Learned" is debatable.
>I'm willing to hear-out Shylock in
> this context. Shall we extract his speeches from the Merchant of
> Venice to see what we may learn in light of Professor Shahak's book
> cited above: Jewish History,Jewish Religion-The Weight of Three
> Thousand Years, which I re-read last night and this morning?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about extracting Hitler's texts on Jews
from Mein Kampf?
> > Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
>
> Here's my passage regarding deceit:
>
> > > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> > > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> > > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> > > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> > > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> > > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> > > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> The deceit, sir, lies in your bland denial that Jewish culture and
> religion contribute to anti-Semitism while simultaneously using
> accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
> questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
> not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
> moral compass.
The Talmud effects some kind of "shut down debate in the U.S. on
questions of critical national policy"?
> > Hunter, get a grip.
>
> Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
> Soloman Ratner?
Obviously, Hunter canNOT get a grip.
> While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
> possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
> the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
Shahak was long ago proven to be full of shit. It's why David Duke
mourned his passing.
> > >> To what end?
>
> > > My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy.
Twaddle.
> > >I have no interest in Judaism,
> > > Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it.
Yet Hunter always holds forth on Judaism, Jewishness, and Israel - his
sources being David Duke, David Irving, Stormfront, CODOH, and various
other antisemitic/White Power/neo-Nazi sites.
> > A test of your character would be to tell the truth,
> > the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> Do you understand what I told you about deceit?
A test of Herr Watson's character would be to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. But this appears to be beyond
his ability.
> > >> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
> > >> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>
> > > All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
> > > regarding Baba Kamma 13a.
Bollocks.
> > Start with Baba Kamma.
> > Analyze the text.
> > Show us how, in light of the comments you've been shown,
> > it causes anti-Semitism.
> Read Shahak to see it in context. EVERYONE SHOULD READ SHAHAK.
> BOOKMARK IT ABOVE.
That should be 113a, not 13a.
Clearly Hunter Watson is a stranger to legal discussions, such as
those actually contained in Bava Kamma 113a, and those following
below.
Again:
FACTS:
CLAIM (27)
Jews May Lie to Non-Jews Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies
("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.
RESPONSE (1)
This is one of the most obvious pieces of out-of-context blather it
has ever been my pleasure to refute. The context is evading a thief.
Yes, you are permitted to lie to a robber --- in particular a crooked
tax collector.
Further down the same page, it not only says that robbing gentiles is
prohibited, it even discusses the derivation of the prohibition.
Here, we have gone beyond going out of context and have entered the
realm of deliberate falsification.
jhert...@ix.netcom.com(Joseph Hertzlinger)
<65lb0o$...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
RESPONSE (2)
Refers to whether a Jew may deceive a Roman tax collector, IIRC (note
that Romans were the occupying force at that time, literally playing
the role of the Sheriff of Nottingham).
behre...@student.uni-kl.de (Reimer Behrends)
RESPONSE (3)
The passage discusses robbers (such as tax collectors who acted
beyond their legal authority) who have stolen property. The
question that arises is whether it is permitted to use subterfuge
to circumvent their thievery. In a long legal discussion, the
entire thrust of which is that any form of stealing from
heathens is forbidden, the following statement is brought
forward for consideration: "we use subterfuges to
circumvent him [a heathen; this is one opinion] ... but Rabbi
Akiva said that we should not attempt to circumvent him on
account of the sanctification of the Name". The Talmud
continues and notes that Rabbi Akiva forbids subterfuges not
only on account of desecration of G-d's name, but also because
theft from a non-Jew is absolutely forbidden by
biblical law. The Talmud continues to explain that even the opinion
which is rejected does not condone outright theft which is absolutely
forbidden according to all opinions.
The Talmudic passage here is a well-known one which makes the point
that the "law of the land is the law", that is, the civil and
commercial law of the nations in which Jews reside is binding on
them.
The conclusions to be drawn from this passage, as noted by the
commentator Meiri, some 700 years ago are as follows:
"We find that it is forbidden to steal even from idol worshippers and
those who do not have any kind of legal system and if a Jew is sold
to them [as a slave] it is forbidden for him to leave their service
without payment, and it is forbidden to refrain from repaying a loan
received from them but one is not required to expend efforts to find
and return their lost articles, and in fact one who simply finds
their lost articles is not required to return them .... since return
of
lost articles is an act of extraordinary kindness [in places where
'finders-keepers' is the rule] and we are not required to show this
extraordinary kindness to those who live without laws, but in any
event ... in the case of a lost article it should be returned if
there is any chance of desecration of G-d's name by failing to do
so ....
but for all those who have any kind of legal and religious system at
all of any type even though their faith is far from our own, they are
not [referred to] in these laws, rather they are in all respects as
Jews for these matters, both as to lost articles, or to mistakes and
to all the other matters without exception."
Michael Gruda (mgr...@netvision.net.il)
RESPONSE (4)
This passage shares the same footnote as Baba Kamma 37b, discussed
above. What is at issue is the principle of legal recipricocity:
As Canaanites did not recognize the laws of social justice, they did
not impose any liablitity for damage done by cattle. They could
consequently not claim to be protected by a law they neither
recognized nor respected... In ancient Israel as in the modern state
the legislation regulating the protection of life and property of the
stranger was... on the basis of reciprocity. Where such reciprocity
was not recognized, the stranger could not claim to enjoy the same
protection of the law as the citizen.
David S. Maddison (maddi...@connexus.net.au)
RESPONSE (5)
A footnote to the passage above refers to the previous footnote. In
other words, this is a case of legal non-reciprocity. That this
passage is directly related to the preceding one, is apparent from
the full citation:
Where a suit arises between an Israelite and a heathen, if you can
justify the former according to the laws of Israel, justify him and
say: 'This is _our_ law'; also if you can justify him by the laws of
the heathens justify him and say [to the other party:] 'This is
_your_law'; but if this cannot be done, we use subterfuges to
circumvent him. This is the view of R. Ishmael, but R. Akiba said
that we should not attempt to circumvent him on account of the
sanctification of the Name.
Note that an opposing opinion is quoted in the very next sentence
after the one cited by Mr. Hoffman -- he could not have missed it! R.
Akiba's opinion, the one Mr. Hoffman does not see fit to mention, is
the one that is accepted as the rule. The reason given, "the
sanctification of the Name," means that a heathen must not be goaded
into cursing against God.
Neither does Mr. Hoffman see fit to mention the very narrow
circumstances in which R. Ishmael sees subterfuge as warranted.
Nevertheless, as R. Ishmael's opinion is not accepted, R. Ishmael
himself would be required to follow R. Akiba's rule. (The strict
adherence of the talmudic rabbis to majority rule is even affirmed by
another of Mr. Hoffman's "citations" in this same article -- the
story
of R. Akiba washing his hands before a meal when he had hardly enough
water to drink -- but I will not be getting around to discussing that
one in this post.)
This particular talmudic discussion continues a few lines down:
Is then the robbery of a heathen permissible? Has it not been taught
that R. Simeon stated that the following matter was expounded by R.
Akiba when he arrived from Zifirin: 'Whence can we learn that the
robbery of a heathen is forbidden? From the significant words: _After
that he is sold he may be redeemed again,_ which implies that he
could not withdraw and leave him [without paying the redemption
money].
That is, an Israelite may not be freed from servitude to a Gentile
without paying compensation to the Gentile.
The debate ends with an affirmation of R. Akiba's view. R. Bibi b.
Giddal, R. Simeon the pious, and R. Huna agree, "The robbery of a
heathen is prohibited..." A footnote to this last passage delivers
the knockput punch:
...v. also Tosef. B.K. X,8 where it is stated that it is more
criminal to rob a Canaanite than to rob an Israelite...
(The abbreviation, Tosef., stands for _Tosefta_, a commentary on the
Talmud, and B.K. stands for Baba Kamma.)
In spite of which, Mr. Hoffman has the audacity, the unmitigated
gall, and the _chutzpah_ to make up subtitles for his "citations" such
as,
"Jews May Steal from Non-Jews" and "Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews!"
From Usenet message http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=3D367956729
Harry Katz (Harry.K...@mci.com)
Deborah
> > >> Christian history is violent and bloody,
> > >> anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
>
> > > The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
> > > often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
> > > case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
> > > significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
> > > power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
> > > ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
> > > yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
> > > affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
> > > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>
> > I assume you accept my claim.
>
> You are confused.
Not as confused as Hunter is, lol.
> > > Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
> > > history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
> > > existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
>
> > Maybe it's a genetic thing,
> > or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
> It's not a fit subject for any form of humor,
The last is not entirely humorous at all.
>but at least you admit
> it existed and that you can not blame it exclusively on Christianity.
> Thank God for that!
Nobody does.
> > > Where did that
> > > ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
> > > the literature of the ancient world.
Sources? If there are so many, it should be easy to name a few
sources.
> > > Is it still coming from the same
> > > sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
> > > that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
> > > for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
> > > worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
>
> > No problem with the question.
> > In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
> > (in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
> > of the perpetrators.
>
> Fine, put it to the surviving Nazis. We Americans are not your
> perpetrators though you nevertheless treat us as if we bear the
> stigmata. We don't. Get that through your head. You must by now
> understand it whether you are permitted to admit it or not.
Another of Hunter's arguments from non-existent premises.
> I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism.
Bollocks.
>I'm doing it
> because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
> it.
More bollocks. He's doing it because he's an antisemite and it gives
him a thrill.
>I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
> that blunt enough?
No. It's still bollocks.
> > >> You won't understand the countless wars,
> > >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
> > >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
> > >> and you certainly won't understand
> > >> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>
> > > The Talmud provides evidence.
How would Hunter know, having read only a few antisemitic fake quotes
purporting to be from it?
Really.
> > And you ask me who the hell I think I am?
>
> Yes.
rotfl. What messhuga.
Deborah
drahcir
<snip>
>
>Into the archive.
You're gonna need a second hard drive soon.
Zev
a30ed7...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 15, 8:24 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:53c5460d-2e8a-4252-9360-
>> dc3f3eba6...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Mar 13, 4:07 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
>> >> a783-102abae57...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> >> > On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
>> >> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
>> >> > contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
>> >> > capable of it.
>>
>> >> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
>> >> the environment in which it was written,
>> >> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>>
>> > Don't change the subject.
>>
>> Can you read the title?
>> Here, I'll repeat it for you:
>> "The Talmud on the Jewish contribution to anti-Semitism".
>> Did you see the word "Talmud"?
>
> I'll wait until you actually say something.
Why do you refuse to answer the question?
>> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
>> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
>> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
>> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
>> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
>> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
>> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>>
>> Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
>> ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
>
> This isn't going to turn on whether medieval illiterates could read
> the Talmud or whether you will succeed in painting Jewish contempt for
> Christians especially but other Goyim too as garden variety
> ethnocentrism. It has to do with the influence of the Talmud on Jews
> whether direct or through the Rabbinate. The Talmud, sir, has Christ
> boiling in a cauldron of shit. Such is not designed to endear Jews to
> Christians.
The NT says nasty things about
my spiritual ancestors, the Pharisees.
Fix your literature, I'll fix mine.
Deal?
BTW, any readers here know why he chose Purim morning
as the cover illustration?
> Everyone who reads this post should make a point of bookmarking the
> url above and distributing it to thoughtful friends. It comes from
> inside Israel and was written by a Holocaust survivor. It is critical
> to read it for yourselves. A great effort will be made by the Zionist
> activists here to defame the author. Be sure to read it.
> The depth of historic Jewish contempt for and hatred of Christianity
> and Christians is shocking. It is *far greater* than Jewish hatred of
> Islam,
The Talmud was written before Muhammad was born
so you won't find references there, and following the Rambam,
many Jews believe that Islam is closer to universal truths
than is Christianity.
Maybe that's part of it.
> a fact which does bear on the level of deceit inherent in what
> Richard Ratner has attempted to do on usenet on behalf, would you
> believe, of an American war against Islam per se.
>
>> Shakespeare (who never saw a Jew in his life)
>> wrote nasty things about Jews because they
>> had misbehaved with him one time too many?
>
> Shakespeare was a learned artist. I'm willing to hear-out Shylock in
> this context. Shall we extract his speeches from the Merchant of
> Venice to see what we may learn in light of Professor Shahak's book
> cited above: Jewish History,Jewish Religion-The Weight of Three
> Thousand Years, which I re-read last night and this morning?
I assume the answer to my question is no.
>> Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
>
> Here's my passage regarding deceit:
>
>> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
>> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
>> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
>> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
>> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
>> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
>> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> The deceit, sir, lies in your bland denial that Jewish culture and
> religion contribute to anti-Semitism
Tell me why Crusaders, on their way to the Holy Land,
destroyed entire Jewish communities.
Don't bother telling me it was because
Jews didn't return overpayment.
> while simultaneously using
> accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
> questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
> not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
> moral compass.
>
>> Hunter, get a grip.
>
> Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
> Soloman Ratner?
He also comments on your BS?
> While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
> possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
> the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
There is a certain closeness due the sharing of many core values,
but no more than that.
>> >> To what end?
>>
>> > My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
>> > detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in Judaism,
>> > Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
>> > would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
>> > handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
>> > States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
>> > are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
>> > democratic system for determination of the national interest in
>> > foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
>> > illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars "of
>> > choice", great
>> > suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not silence
>> > us, Zev.
.בימות המשיח חוצפה יסגי
Catullus would have disagreed with you (Odi Et Amo).
>> I assume you accept my claim.
>
> You are confused.
You say nothing to reject it.
>> > Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
>> > history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
>> > existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
>>
>> Maybe it's a genetic thing,
>> or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
>
> It's not a fit subject for any form of humor, but at least you admit
> it existed and that you can not blame it exclusively on Christianity.
> Thank God for that!
>
>> > Where did that
>> > ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
>> > the literature of the ancient world. Is it still coming from the same
>> > sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
>> > that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
>> > for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
>> > worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
>>
>> No problem with the question.
>> In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
>> (in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
>> of the perpetrators.
>
> Fine, put it to the surviving Nazis. We Americans are not your
> perpetrators though you nevertheless treat us as if we bear the
> stigmata. We don't. Get that through your head. You must by now
> understand it whether you are permitted to admit it or not.
No anti-Semites around besides surviving Nazis?
> I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
> because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
> it. I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
> that blunt enough?
Blunt but unwise.
Better to ask anti-Semites how they got that way.
They would surely know, whereas Jews might only think they know.
>> >> You won't understand the countless wars,
>> >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
>> >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
>> >> and you certainly won't understand
>> >> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>>
>> > The Talmud provides evidence.
Does a book explain any of the above?
>> > There is much more. I have alluded to it
>> > above. To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
>> > characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
>> > the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
>> > Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
>> > people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
>> > involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
>> > simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
>> > in daily life--if at all.
>>
>> Hunter, you're on to something here,
>> "daily life" is the place to look,
>> but you have to be a really good historian to do it.
>
> Explain your view, please.
"Rubbing wrong" has nothing to do obscure books.
And btw, do I get credit if I don't like Gentiles
because they rub me wrong?
Would that excuse Jewish behavior towards Gentiles,
similar to Gentile behavior towards Jews?
>> >> Introspection might help you, Hunter,
>> >> but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
>>
>> > High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
>> > native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
>> > wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
>> > apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
>> > embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
>> > you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
>> > history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
>> > abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
>>
>> 1.8% of the population, divided against itself in ways
>> you're not aware of, wagging the rest into war and
>> insolvency by dragging them into my criminal history?
>
> It's the corporate you, Zev. You're a Zionist activist in Israel. You
> defend the regime. The regime has blood on its hands, American blood.
A tiny minority controls American policy?
No respected American can say the truth, and get the vote?
Aren't you saying that Gentiles are a bunch of nincompoops,
putty in the hands of sharp Jews?
mirjam
> No anti-Semites around besides surviving Nazis?
>
> > I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
> > because I'm sick of seeing Christianity
>
>
> read more »
תשובות מצוינות
מרים
dsharavi
> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> a30ed7081...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> BTW, any readers here know why he chose Purim morning
> as the cover illustration?
>
> > Everyone who reads this post should make a point of bookmarking the
> > url above and distributing it to thoughtful friends. It comes from
> > inside Israel and was written by a Holocaust survivor. It is critical
> > to read it for yourselves. A great effort will be made by the Zionist
> > activists here to defame the author. Be sure to read it.
> > The depth of historic Jewish contempt for and hatred of Christianity
> > and Christians is shocking. It is *far greater* than Jewish hatred of
> > Islam,
>
> The Talmud was written before Muhammad was born
> so you won't find references there, and following the Rambam,
> many Jews believe that Islam is closer to universal truths
> than is Christianity.
> Maybe that's part of it.
Another explanation I've read is that a factor of Christian
antisemitism is that early Christianity (after it ceased to be a
Jewish sect) viewed itself as a separate religion attempting to
supplant Judaism, the parent religion. The same explanation holds for
Islam, however, in that case, it was a separate religion attempting to
supplant its TWO parent religions, Judaism AND Christianity.
You really expect an answer on this from Hunter? You're very
optimistic.
Actually, it wasn't the Crusaders of the First Crusade, per se, as
violence against Jews was never a part of church policy vis a vis the
crusades. Sporadic outbreaks of violence against Jews began with the
preaching of the First Crusade; it was the members of the People's
Crusade under Peter the Hermit, which preceded the First Crusade, who
launched the first attacks on Jewish communities in France and
Germany. They destroyed the Jewish communities of Speyer, Worms,
Mainz, Cologne, Trier, Metz, and other cities, while another army
attacked Jewish communities in Bohemia. Their goals were to a) force
Jews to convert; b) seize money and valuables from Jews; and c)
eradicate debts to Jewish moneylenders.
> > while simultaneously using
> > accusations of anti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
> > questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
> > not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
> > moral compass.
>
> >> Hunter, get a grip.
>
> > Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
> > Soloman Ratner?
>
> He also comments on your BS?
Does the proverbial bear do his proverbial business in the proverbial
woods?
> > While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
> > possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
> > the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
> There is a certain closeness due the sharing of many core values,
> but no more than that.
The only sharing of core values with Shahak comes from antisemites/neo-
Nazis/White Powerniks.
[snip foreign policy blah blah blub]
> >> > All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
> >> > regarding Baba Kamma 13a.
That's 113a, and the only "smokescreen" comes from Talmudic scholars
and others familiar with the Talmud. Which neither Hunter nor his
antisemitic source, Hoffman, is.
> > > > As a matter of textual analysis it appears
> >> > to be a cloud of squiddish ink.
As if Hunter has actually seen the text.
> >> >> Christian history is violent and bloody,
> >> >> anti-Semitism is just one part of it.
>
> >> > The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
> >> > often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
> >> > case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
> >> > significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
> >> > power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
> >> > ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
> >> > yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
> >> > affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
> >> > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>
> Catullus would have disagreed with you (Odi Et Amo).
Good one.
> >> I assume you accept my claim.
>
> > You are confused.
>
> You say nothing to reject it.
"You are confused" is another of Hunter's stock responses when he has
no response to facts.
> >> > Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
> >> > history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny.
It certainly does, as the greatest outbreaks of violence against Jews
can be laid to the door of Christians.
> >> > Hostility to Jews
> >> > existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
Provide examples.
>
> >> Maybe it's a genetic thing,
> >> or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
>
> > It's not a fit subject for any form of humor,
Sure it is.
> >but at least you admit
> > it existed and that you can not blame it exclusively on Christianity.
> > Thank God for that!
Even Hunter can't help being (unintentionally) humorous.
>
> >> > Where did that
> >> > ancient dislike of Jews come from?
Where did Hunter's present day dislike of Jews come from?
> >> >There are many examples of it in
> >> > the literature of the ancient world.
If there are so many, it should be easy to produce a few. Can't do
it?
> >> In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
> >> (in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
> >> of the perpetrators.
>
> > Fine, put it to the surviving Nazis. We Americans are not your
> > perpetrators though you nevertheless treat us as if we bear the
> > stigmata. We don't. Get that through your head. You must by now
> > understand it whether you are permitted to admit it or not.
>
> No anti-Semites around besides surviving Nazis?
<g>
> > I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
> > because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
> > it. I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
> > that blunt enough?
>
> Blunt but unwise.
> Better to ask anti-Semites how they got that way.
> They would surely know, whereas Jews might only think they know.
So, how did Hunter get that way?
> >> >> You won't understand the countless wars,
> >> >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
> >> >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
> >> >> and you certainly won't understand
> >> >> anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>
> >> > The Talmud provides evidence.
>
> Does a book explain any of the above?
Of course not, and neither does the Mishna or the Gemara.
>
> >> > If Jews do tend to rub
> >> > people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
> >> > involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
> >> > simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
> >> > in daily life--if at all.
>
> >> Hunter, you're on to something here,
> >> "daily life" is the place to look,
> >> but you have to be a really good historian to do it.
>
> > Explain your view, please.
>
> "Rubbing wrong" has nothing to do obscure books.
>
> And btw, do I get credit if I don't like Gentiles
> because they rub me wrong?
> Would that excuse Jewish behavior towards Gentiles,
> similar to Gentile behavior towards Jews?
You have to ask?
> >> > High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
> >> > native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
> >> > wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
> >> > apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
> >> > embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
> >> > you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
> >> > history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
> >> > abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
>
> >> 1.8% of the population, divided against itself in ways
> >> you're not aware of, wagging the rest into war and
> >> insolvency by dragging them into my criminal history?
>
> > It's the corporate you, Zev. You're a Zionist activist in Israel. You
> > defend the regime. The regime has blood on its hands, American blood.
>
> A tiny minority controls American policy?
In Hunter's cosmology, yes.
> No respected American can say the truth, and get the vote?
Ditto above.
> Aren't you saying that Gentiles are a bunch of nincompoops,
> putty in the hands of sharp Jews?
Yep. He's been saying it for several years now.
And I've been saying for years, if Jews control America and American
policy, WHERE'S MY SHARE????
Deborah
drahcir
Excuse me, but in my view you have been suckered into the Muslim sham.
Judaism and Christianity are no more the parents of Islam than they
are the parents of Buddhism. The entire Arab ploy when inventing Islam
was to mask the purely plagiaristic aspects of the Koran with some
totally improvised "connection". Jesus was a Jew preaching against
what he saw as a perversion of the "true" Judaism. Judeo-Christianity
is thereby a closed system - Islam, aside from the fact that Arabs,
supposedly the progeny of Ishmael, invented it, is completely
unreleated to either of them.
coaster132000
I print them in the most elaborate format complete with all the
identifying information.
drahcir
I'm happy you've found yourself a hobby.
coaste...@yahoo.com
> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> a30ed7081...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 15, 8:24 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:53c5460d-2e8a-4252-9360-
> >> dc3f3eba6...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> >> > On Mar 13, 4:07 pm, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:0da05aa5-f4fb-4e8c-
> >> >> a783-102abae57...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> >> >> > On Mar 11, 7:33 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> >> > ZEV, this thread is primarily a vehicle for you and me to thrash out
> >> >> > the question we've been discussing. I hope you will make a serious
> >> >> >contribution. And you too, Hillel. Neither sharavi nor Ratner is
> >> >> > capable of it.
> >> >> Teach you the nature of the Talmud,
> >> >> the environment in which it was written,
> >> >> the concept of "Halachah L'maaseh"?
>
> >> > Don't change the subject.
>
> >> Can you read the title?
> >> Here, I'll repeat it for you:
> >> "The Talmud on the Jewishcontributiontoanti-Semitism".
> >> Did you see the word "Talmud"?
>
> > I'll wait until you actually say something.
>
> Why do you refuse to answer the question?
I wrote the word, a fact of which you are well aware.
> >> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> >> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> >> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> >> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> >> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> >> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> >> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> >> Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
> >> ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
>
> > This isn't going to turn on whether medieval illiterates could read
> > the Talmud or whether you will succeed in painting Jewish contempt for
> > Christians especially but other Goyim too as garden variety
> > ethnocentrism. It has to do with the influence of the Talmud on Jews
> > whether direct or through the Rabbinate. The Talmud, sir, has Christ
> > boiling in a cauldron of shit. Such is not designed to endear Jews to
> > Christians.
>
> The NT says nasty things about
> my spiritual ancestors, the Pharisees.
> Fix your literature, I'll fix mine.
> Deal?
> http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Israel.Shahak/Jewish.History.Jewis...
> BTW, any readers here know why he chose Purim morning
> as the cover illustration?
He mentions Purim in the book. I don't recall the gist of his comment,
probably because I don't know what Purim is.
> > Everyone who reads this post should make a point of bookmarking the
> > url above and distributing it to thoughtful friends. It comes from
> > inside Israel and was written by a Holocaust survivor. It is critical
> > to read it for yourselves. A great effort will be made by the Zionist
> > activists here to defame the author. Be sure to read it.
> > The depth of historic Jewish contempt for and hatred of Christianity
> > and Christians is shocking. It is *far greater* than Jewish hatred of
> > Islam,
>
> The Talmud was written before Muhammad was born
> so you won't find references there, and following the Rambam,
> many Jews believe that Islam is closer to universal truths
> than is Christianity.
I'll leave the relative universality of religious truths to you, but I
am convinced that Chistianity in theory at least represents a
substantial human advance over both the others. I wish though that the
early Church Fathers had been able to go forward without making the
Old Testament a part of the canon. It's not consistent with the
humane, even humanistic, spirit of Christianity.
> Maybe that's part of it.
>
> > a fact which does bear on the level of deceit inherent in what
> > Richard Ratner has attempted to do on usenet on behalf, would you
> > believe, of an American war against Islam per se.
>
> >> Shakespeare (who never saw a Jew in his life)
> >> wrote nasty things about Jews because they
> >> had misbehaved with him one time too many?
>
> > Shakespeare was a learned artist. I'm willing to hear-out Shylock in
> > this context. Shall we extract his speeches from the Merchant of
> > Venice to see what we may learn in light of Professor Shahak's book
> > cited above: Jewish History,Jewish Religion-The Weight of Three
> > Thousand Years, which I re-read last night and this morning?
>
> I assume the answer to my question is no.
The answer required 14 words. See above.
> >> Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
>
> > Here's my passage regarding deceit:
>
> >> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
> >> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all the
> >> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
> >> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
> >> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too are
> >> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from your
> >> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>
> > The deceit, sir, lies in your bland denial that Jewish culture and
> > religion contribute to anti-Semitism.
>
> Tell me why Crusaders, on their way to the Holy Land,
> destroyed entire Jewish communities.
> Don't bother telling me it was because
> Jews didn't return overpayment.
Certainly you don't believe that Jews were trusted and accepted by the
peasantry.
I'm going to speculate based partially on what I think I remember from
a single history of the Crusades by Zoe Oldenburg read many decades
ago.
The Crusader hosts were made up of illiterate serfs, swept away by
religious hysteria. It was they who were the most bitter enemies of
the Jews in the Middle Ages and through the 19th Century in Central
and Eastern Europe. The feudal nobility and the Jews were essentially
allied against the peasant class with the Jews in between serving as
the interface, the living symbol of feudal oppression. There were no
Jewish serfs. Jews were of a higher, intermediate, even priviledged
class. I presume that under the circumstances of this vast migration
of armed and hyped-up primitives, they could not be protected by the
local nobility as was otherwise the case. This Christian Mob was
whipped into a religio-mystic frenzy about their mission and in any
event "the Jews had killed their Lord Jesus". I don't doubt that the
priests and monks laid it on.
> > while simultaneously using
> > accusations ofanti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
> > questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
> > not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
> > moral compass.
>
> >> Hunter, get a grip.
>
> > Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
> > Solomon Ratner?
>
> He also comments on your BS?
You're just as glued to the others as you are me.
> > While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
> > possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
> > the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
>
> There is a certain closeness due the sharing of many core values,
> but no more than that.
I don't believe the core values part at all, especially when it comes
to democratic principles.
>
> >> >> To what end?
>
> >> > My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
> >> > detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in Judaism,
> >> > Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
> >> > would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly single-
> >> > handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the United
> >> > States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
> >> > are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
> >> > democratic system for determination of the national interest in
> >> > foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
> >> > illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars "of
> >> > choice", great
> >> > suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not silence
> >> > us, Zev.
>
> .בימות המשיח חוצפה יסגי
You silence yourself.
> >> > We've gone way beyond that era. Without an end to the Zionist
> >> > gaming and deceit here in America Israel is going to be in greater and
> >> > greater danger both here and in your region. You should put an end to
> >> > it as a matter of principle. A test of your character is just how
> >> > troubling you find that proposition and why.
>
> >> A test of your character would be to tell the truth,
> >> the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> > Do you understand what I told you about deceit?
>
> >> >> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
> >> >> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>
> >> > All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
> >> > regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
> >> > to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
> >> > worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
> >> > your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
>
> >> Start with Baba Kamma.
> >> Analyze the text.
> >> Show us how, in light of the comments you've been shown,
> >> it causes anti-Semitism.
The relevant passages are declarative in nature.
> > Read Shahak to see it in context. EVERYONE SHOULD READ SHAHAK.
> > BOOKMARK IT ABOVE.
> >> >> Christian history is violent and bloody,
> >> >>anti-Semitismis just one part of it.
> >> > The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and was
> >> > often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
> >> > case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
> >> > significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
> >> > power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
> >> > ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
> >> > yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
> >> > affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both ways.
> >> > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>
> Catullus would have disagreed with you (Odi Et Amo).
Odes to Love. How about quoting relevant passages? Don't just give us
throw-aways like this. I'm interested.
> >> I assume you accept my claim.
>
> > You are confused.
>
> You say nothing to reject it.
Your claim about Cattulus? Quote him.
> >> > Your assertion that anti-Semitism is nothing but one part of the
> >> > history of Christianity does not bear scrutiny. Hostility to Jews
> >> > existed before Christianity had any power in the West.
>
> >> Maybe it's a genetic thing,
> >> or has something to do with the influence of Trefa on the soul.
>
> > It's not a fit subject for any form of humor, but at least you admit
> > it existed and that you can not blame it exclusively on Christianity.
> > Thank God for that!
>
> >> > Where did that
> >> > ancient dislike of Jews come from? There are many examples of it in
> >> > the literature of the ancient world. Is it still coming from the same
> >> > sources? If a Martian were to read Hoffman's article could it conclude
> >> > that Jewish culture and religion are completely free of responsibility
> >> > for it? Can you bring yourself to look at this question or would you
> >> > worry about being shunned by your friends and associates?
>
> >> No problem with the question.
> >> In fact, I think it might prove to be cathartic
> >> (in the Greek tragedy sense) when asked
> >> of the perpetrators.
>
> > Fine, put it to the surviving Nazis. We Americans are not your
> > perpetrators though you nevertheless treat us as if we bear the
> > stigmata. We don't. Get that through your head. You must by now
> > understand it whether you are permitted to admit it or not.
> No anti-Semites around besides surviving Nazis?
Of course there are but antisemitism is not a criminal state of being.
We don't punish people for speech and ideas, but only for crimes.
We're against the idea of thought crimes.
> > I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
> > because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
> > it. I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
> > that blunt enough?
>
> Blunt but unwise.
> Better to ask anti-Semites how they got that way.
> They would surely know, whereas Jews might only think they know.
Your last phrase indicates that you're unwilling to follow me down
this path. Here's an article I found today in English Pravada. There
is nothing subtle about it. Neither does it relate precisely to the
Talmud argument I've been making. It's on the same subject though,
your contribution to your own problems.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/14-01-2009/106945-Jewish_Contribution_Anti_Semiti-0/
>
> >> >> You won't understand the countless wars,
> >> >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
> >> >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying scripture,
> >> >> and you certainly won't understand
> >> >>anti-Semitismby reading the Talmud.
Para below amended:
>
> >> > The Talmud, just a single example, contains *evidence* as to a Jewish contribution to anti-semitism. Your system of religious education is deeply rooted in Talmudic learning. It's attitudes toward "others" are passed on to your young. I don't think the basic idea can be denied.
> Does a book explain any of the above?
None of which I am aware. But there are are studies which shed light
on what common sense would conclude are Jewish contributions to anti-
Semitism among out-group people, people in daily contact with Jews
over the centuries. He calls it reactive anti-Semitism. I've read very
little by Dr. Kevin MacDonald but he has written several. I don't
doubt that there are others, probably older. He's been made
controversial by constant attacks on his work and his alleged anti-
Semitism, but that's most probably political for the most part. Anyone
with an intact personality and self-respect will make such judgments
himself.
Social and intellectual historians, cultural anthropologists, etc.,
who might set about answering the question we've discussed, i.e.,
whether Jews themselves make contributions to antisemitism, would
certainly look at the effects of Jewish religious education. So might
an "evolutionary psychologist" (if I have that right)such as Dr. Kevin
MacDonald. The scope may be vast but the problem can't be
prohibitively complex conceptually. It requires the will and talent to
do it.
> >> > There is much more. I have alluded to it
> >> > above. To understand there is also the requirement of considering the
> >> > characteristic point of view of Christians, of those you defame with
> >> > the accusation of anti-Semitism. It won't do to rely only on your own
> >> > Weltanschauung. It isn't self-justifying. If Jews do tend to rub
> >> > people from Christian cultures wrong, the answer to the question why
> >> > involves evaluation of the Christian consciousness. Rubbing wrong is
> >> > simply a result, an objective fact. I'm interested in how it happens
> >> > in daily life--if at all.
>
> >> Hunter, you're on to something here,
> >> "daily life" is the place to look,
> >> but you have to be a really good historian to do it.
>
> > Explain your view, please.
>
> "Rubbing wrong" has nothing to do obscure books.
But they undeniably have a lot to do with Jewish education and the
cultural conditioning which replicates the Jewish community generation
after generation. Dr. MacDonald speaks also of community survival and
resource competition strategies. You should read him on the theory of
"Know thine enemy."
> And btw, do I get credit if I don't like Gentiles
> because they rub me wrong?
Why not? But keep in mind that the outgroups don't have like problems.
Yours are unique in terms of severity and duration. The failure to
take stock of your own contribution to them can't be justified.
> Would that excuse Jewish behavior towards Gentiles,
> similar to Gentile behavior towards Jews?
See immediately above.
>
> >> >> Introspection might help you, Hunter,
> >> >> but you won't do it if you're afraid of what you'll find.
>
> >> > High stakes chutzpah, Zev. Israel and her Lobby have been abusing my
> >> > native land for over forty years. The results included fighting your
> >> > wars and our resultant insolvency and you pretend that I ought to be
> >> > apologetic for working to put an end to it? You think I should be
> >> > embarrassed to confront it? Who the hell do you think you are? Who do
> >> > you think is paying the price for being dragged into your criminal
> >> > history? We American's don't owe you this! You extract it from us by
> >> > abusing our political system. Introspection, indeed.
>
> >> 1.8% of the population, divided against itself in ways
> >> you're not aware of, wagging the rest into war and
> >> insolvency by dragging them into my criminal history?
>
> > It's the corporate you. You're a Zionist activist in Israel. You
> > defend the regime. The regime has blood on its hands, American blood.
>
> A tiny minority controls American policy?
It's a single issue lobby. The resources used are vast and very
concentrated. It combines great organizational skills with obscene
amounts of money and, in my opinion, a brutal and amoral approach to
the use of highly focused power. You can understand how it is done by
reading Mearsheimer and Walt's The Israel Lobby and American foreign
policy. Lots of copies were sold in Israel. You can easily find one.
> No respected American can say the truth, and get the vote?
The central problem is the systematic destruction of the political
careers of those who raise their heads on Israel policy. They've got
to send their kids to Harvard too. They like their work. It's pretty
good for the ego to be a US Rep or Senator. It leads to other
prestigious and lucrative work in time and all of that depends on not
having been tainted. Your Lobby here is very big on destroying people.
If you're marked by the Israel Lobby you're a liability, not an asset.
If you think I'm exaggerating read the damned book.
> Aren't you saying that Gentiles are a bunch of nincompoops,
> putty in the hands of sharp Jews?>>
Nope. There's not much that's sharp about it. It's efficient, brutal,
amoral and probably illegal hardball on an scale never seen before in
American history. Congressmen simply say, "Why should I commit
suicide" and sign whatever's put in front of them. The last
politicians who actually stood up to AIPAC were Jack and Bobbie
Kennedy in the early sixties. They began the process of forcing it to
register as an agent for a foreign power. Jack was shot by a Communist
who had been in the Soviet Union under strange circumstances and
Bobbie was shot by a Lebanese specifically because he had announced
the intention to sell more fighter-bombers to Israel if elected. Never
since has any Administration demanded that AIPAC register as an agent
for a foreign power. It is far more fearsome today. It's so arrogant
that it involves itself in spying too.
Most any lobby for a foreign country would like to operate without
registering as such and to pour unlimited amounts of money into our
electoral system, punishing some and rewarding others in the interests
of foreigners. But the law forbids it and requires registration. Only
the Israel Lobby gets away with. The government is literally afraid of
it. If we were mere nincompoops we'd have put an end to this bullshit
years ago. But everyone stands alone when facing the Lobby. No one
trusts anyone else where that's concerned. They don't even speak
candidly to colleagues. The word gets out and they are targeted. So
much for Harvard. So much for those lucrative corporate board
memberships and those high level administrative appointments. Tainted
goods don't sell and AIPAC's rule is never forgive and never forget.
And you ask me who the hell I think I am?
>
> > Yes.
And yes again. You're damned right I do.
Zev
news:205de5e7-d31d-4eb1-8e30-
ef1c58...@z27g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
>> >> Did you see the word "Talmud"?
>>
>> > I'll wait until you actually say something.
>>
>> Why do you refuse to answer the question?
>
> I wrote the word, a fact of which you are well aware.
Not that question, the one above it.
But never mind.
>> >> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
>> >> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all
>> >> > the
>> >> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
>> >> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
>> >> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too
>> >> > are
>> >> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from
>> >> > your
>> >> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>>
>> >> Illiterate Feudal Christians hated Jews because of
>> >> ethnocentric passages in the Talmud?
>>
>> > This isn't going to turn on whether medieval illiterates could read
>> > the Talmud or whether you will succeed in painting Jewish contempt for
>> > Christians especially but other Goyim too as garden variety
>> > ethnocentrism. It has to do with the influence of the Talmud on Jews
>> > whether direct or through the Rabbinate. The Talmud, sir, has Christ
>> > boiling in a cauldron of shit. Such is not designed to endear Jews to
>> > Christians.
>>
>> The NT says nasty things about
>> my spiritual ancestors, the Pharisees.
>> Fix your literature, I'll fix mine.
>> Deal?
Nothing to say?
Isn't what's good for the goose, good for the gander?
>> http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Israel.Shahak/Jewish.History.Jewis...
>
>> BTW, any readers here know why he chose Purim morning
>> as the cover illustration?
>
> He mentions Purim in the book. I don't recall the gist of his comment,
> probably because I don't know what Purim is.
Thanks.
I'm just curious.
People become anti-Semites because
they read bad things about them,
not because Jews have done bad things to them?
Is that what happened to Shakespeare?
Is it part of the culture?
>> >> Where's the deceit, who's attempting to obscure?
>>
>> > Here's my passage regarding deceit:
>>
>> >> > It was whether Jewish culture and religion
>> >> > *contribute* to anti-Semitism or whether you can honestly heap all
>> >> > the
>> >> > opprobrium for it upon Christians and/or Muslims. So far as I am
>> >> > concerned it appears virtually impossible for you to accomplish the
>> >> > latter. If I am correct there is a massive deceit here and you too
>> >> > are
>> >> > attempting to obscure it. If non-Jews are to free themselves from
>> >> > your
>> >> > own share of the 'guilt' they must awaken and expose it.
>>
>> > The deceit, sir, lies in your bland denial that Jewish culture and
>> > religion contribute to anti-Semitism.
>>
>> Tell me why Crusaders, on their way to the Holy Land,
>> destroyed entire Jewish communities.
>> Don't bother telling me it was because
>> Jews didn't return overpayment.
>
> Certainly you don't believe that Jews were trusted and accepted by the
> peasantry.
Certainly you don't believe that most peasants
even knew what a Jew looked like.
> I'm going to speculate based partially on what I think I remember from
> a single history of the Crusades by Zoe Oldenburg read many decades
> ago.
>
> The Crusader hosts were made up of illiterate serfs, swept away by
> religious hysteria. It was they who were the most bitter enemies of
> the Jews in the Middle Ages and through the 19th Century in Central
> and Eastern Europe. The feudal nobility and the Jews were essentially
> allied against the peasant class with the Jews in between serving as
> the interface, the living symbol of feudal oppression. There were no
> Jewish serfs. Jews were of a higher, intermediate, even priviledged
> class. I presume that under the circumstances of this vast migration
> of armed and hyped-up primitives, they could not be protected by the
> local nobility as was otherwise the case. This Christian Mob was
> whipped into a religio-mystic frenzy about their mission and in any
> event "the Jews had killed their Lord Jesus". I don't doubt that the
> priests and monks laid it on.
So essentially, the nobility exploited the serfs,
and along with the church, got off the hook
by channeling their frustrations onto the Jews.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
>> > while simultaneously using
>> > accusations ofanti-Semitism to shut down debate in the U.S on
>> > questions of critical national policy. If you persist in pretending
>> > not to understand what I'm saying I suggest that you consult a new
>> > moral compass.
>>
>> >> Hunter, get a grip.
>>
>> > Don't you just love being able to quote the great scholar Richard
>> > Solomon Ratner?
>>
>> He also comments on your BS?
>
> You're just as glued to the others as you are me.
>
>> > While you're at it, consider the deceit that there is even a
>> > possibility of a genuine friendship and alliance between the U.S. and
>> > the Zionist regime in Israel. Again, read Shahak.
>>
>> There is a certain closeness due the sharing of many core values,
>> but no more than that.
>
> I don't believe the core values part at all, especially when it comes
> to democratic principles.
You think the U.S. is more democratic than Israel?
You think that, faced with the same challenges,
the U.S. would behave better (defined any way you like)
than Israel?
>> >> >> To what end?
>>
>> >> > My primary 'end' here has to do with foreign policy. The rest is
>> >> > detail involving miscellaneous reforms. I have no interest in
>> >> > Judaism,
>> >> > Jewishness or in Israel. Far from it. My attitude toward Israel
>> >> > would be one of benign neglect were it not that she has nearly
>> >> > single-
>> >> > handedly created the most dangerous and chronic crisis for the
>> >> > United
>> >> > States since the end of the Cold War. She has done it in ways which
>> >> > are profoundly alienating. I detest the fact that our more or less
>> >> > democratic system for determination of the national interest in
>> >> > foreign affairs has been subverted by Israel and her conflicted and
>> >> > illegal Lobby here in the U.S. It has resulted in useless wars "of
>> >> > choice", great
>> >> > suffering for the American people and bankruptcy. You can not
>> >> > silence
>> >> > us, Zev.
>>
>> .בימות המשיח חוצפה יסגי
>
> You silence yourself.
If you could read it, you would know that your reaction
is exactly the point I made.
You pontificate about a people
whose culture and language are foreign to you.
You spend a major part of your time on this,
but you won't learn.
You argue, "confidently", with people who know more than you,
and, when stymied, run away, apparently unable
to use the experience as a learning event.
>> >> > We've gone way beyond that era. Without an end to the Zionist
>> >> > gaming and deceit here in America Israel is going to be in greater
>> >> > and
>> >> > greater danger both here and in your region. You should put an end
>> >> > to
>> >> > it as a matter of principle. A test of your character is just how
>> >> > troubling you find that proposition and why.
>>
>> >> A test of your character would be to tell the truth,
>> >> the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>>
>> > Do you understand what I told you about deceit?
>>
>> >> >> You've been shown that your source is a lie,
>> >> >> what do you hope to gain by going this way?
>>
>> >> > All that has happened is that sharavi has thrown up a smoke screen
>> >> > regarding Baba Kamma 13a. As a matter of textual analysis it appears
>> >> > to be a cloud of squiddish ink. I haven't yet decided whether it's
>> >> > worth dealing with as the article contains scores of such things and
>> >> > your misuse of the word 'lie' is so obvious as to constitute one.
>>
>> >> Start with Baba Kamma.
>> >> Analyze the text.
>> >> Show us how, in light of the comments you've been shown,
>> >> it causes anti-Semitism.
>
> The relevant passages are declarative in nature.
IOW, you won't.
>> > Read Shahak to see it in context. EVERYONE SHOULD READ SHAHAK.
>> > BOOKMARK IT ABOVE.
>
>> >> >> Christian history is violent and bloody,
>> >> >>anti-Semitismis just one part of it.
>
>> >> > The history of Christianity had very violent and bloody phases and
>> >> > was
>> >> > often characterized by immense suffering. But that hasn't been the
>> >> > case for a long time. Twentieth Century violence in Europe was not
>> >> > significantly religious. Today Christianity has very little temporal
>> >> > power *anywhere*. Our recent problems have been with political
>> >> > ideologies, race and nationalism. You Israelis like to think of
>> >> > yourselves as an outpost of Western Civilization despite your
>> >> > affectation of hostility toward it here. You can't have it both
>> >> > ways.
>> >> > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>>
>> Catullus would have disagreed with you (Odi Et Amo).
>
> Odes to Love. How about quoting relevant passages? Don't just give us
> throw-aways like this. I'm interested.
>
>> >> I assume you accept my claim.
>>
>> > You are confused.
>>
>> You say nothing to reject it.
>
> Your claim about Cattulus? Quote him.
Hunter, you've never looked so foolish, and that's saying something.
That's what we're discussing???
>> > I'm looking for contributing sources of anti-Semitism. I'm doing it
>> > because I'm sick of seeing Christianity taking 100% of the blame for
>> > it. I'm also doing it for its potential political significance. Is
>> > that blunt enough?
>>
>> Blunt but unwise.
>> Better to ask anti-Semites how they got that way.
>> They would surely know, whereas Jews might only think they know.
>
> Your last phrase indicates that you're unwilling to follow me down
> this path. Here's an article I found today in English Pravada. There
> is nothing subtle about it. Neither does it relate precisely to the
> Talmud argument I've been making. It's on the same subject though,
> your contribution to your own problems.
>
> http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/14-01-2009/106945-Jewish_Contribution_Anti_Semiti-0/
>
>
>
>>
>> >> >> You won't understand the countless wars,
>> >> >> the treatment of the Cathars, the enslavement of Africans,
>> >> >> or the exploitation of the New World, by looking studying
>> >> >> scripture,
>> >> >> and you certainly won't understand
>> >> >>anti-Semitism by reading the Talmud.
>
> Para below amended:
>>
>> >> > The Talmud, just a single example, contains *evidence* as to a
>> >> > Jewish contribution to anti-semitism. Your system of religious
>> >> > education is deeply rooted in Talmudic learning. It's attitudes
>> >> > toward "others" are passed on to your young. I don't think the basic
>> >> > idea can be denied.
Most Jews learn little or no Talmud.
Fewer pay attention or even see the parts you're so interested in.
Which kind of Jew are you and other objects of Talmudic disdain,
most likely to rub shoulders with, in business, pleasure, or trade?
Your own argument seems to be that
the severity and duration are similar.
>> Would that excuse Jewish behavior towards Gentiles,
>> similar to Gentile behavior towards Jews?
>
> See immediately above.
Can you say or no?
drahcir
Wow, you, who know zero about Judaism and in all likelihood not much
more about Christianity are convinced. Very impressive. Pray tell
what, besides your antisemitism, convinced you? Was it the pogroms?
The Crusades, perhaps? Plunging Europe into centuries of stagnation
and darkness? Motivating European colonialism? Please do share.
>> .????? ????? ????? ????
Anne Onime
ANSWER: Jew Rothschilds who have reportedly made 3 trillions (he is is worth already 100 trillions of dollars!! believe it or not as reported by the media -- see link below to the Independent Newspaper in the UK) in the latest orchestrated stock meltdown (orchastrated by them of course and their Zionist allies).
Read the following (very interesting) links to understand the true history of the financial markets that is systematically supressed by the mainstream media who is also owned by them and their allies (The Rothschilds, Rockefeller etc.)
The Independent (UK) - Lying when saying that Rothschilds are OUT of Gold just before the increase in the price of GOLD (2004) ---ONLY truth however: They ARE indeeed worth TRILLIONS of US dollars, when Bill Gates of Microsoft (supposedly the richest man on earth is worth only 60 billion US dollars!!!.... : http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article56239.ece
The Rothschilds and true family history (Often distorted and censured by the same media they OWN like Financial Times, New York Times, Times, etc.): http://web.archive.org/web/20061210055013/http://www.wealth4freedom.c...
Protocols of Zion (their Plan for World Conquest): http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/prvisit.htm#VISITING
Money Masters (History of Banking --often censured/supressed by media and education systems): http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6076118677860424204
May God be with you and those seeking the TRUTH!
PS: Please make a copy (cut and paste) and distribute/email this message to your friends and family.
PSS: The Bilderberg Group (basically the Assembly of CLOWNS serving under the Zionist Jews (Commonly called the Elders of Zion)...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group
"Oligarch" (in Russia) who stole all the state wealth through fraudulent "privatizations in the 90's) or "Neocons" (in the US) who pushed for war in Irak under false pretense are ALL (almost) ZIONIST JEWS!
PSSS: THe new "bailout" plan is intended to make Western Governments buy stakes in major banks and become de FACTO MAJOR CREDIT INSTITUTIONS.
Sounds like execution of a much older SATANIC PLAN: See for yourselff ;-) :
QUOTE: 11. We shall replace the money markets by grandiose government credit institutions, the object of which will be to fix the price of industrial values in accordance with government views. These institutions will be in a position to fling upon the market five hundred millions of industrial paper in one day, or to buy up for the same amount. In this way all industrial undertakings will come into dependence upon us. You may imagine for yourselves what immense power we shall thereby secure for ourselves .... ENDQUOTE
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion7.htm#PROTOCOL%20No.%2024
VERY INTERESTING, NO?
NOW LET'S SEE WHAT US PRESIDENT J.F. KENNEDY HAD TO SAY ABOUT THESE SAME PEOPLE JUST BEFORE BEING ASSASINATED BY THEIR FREEMASSON.ILLUNITAIS EMPLOYEES:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces
PSSSS: See for yourself HOW MUCH has already come to pass in this plan and you will be amazed (And these idoiots keep saying it is a "FORGERY")!
dsharavi
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT), dsharavi
>
Read the Quran. Its sources are the bible, Christian and Hebrew
scriptures. Islam waters it down considerably, but that doesn't negate
its Christian and Jewish sources.
> Jesus was a Jew preaching against
> what he saw as a perversion of the "true" Judaism.
Does Christianity reflect that? No. What does the earliest Christian
mention of Muhammad reflect? The c 640 Teaching of Jacob (Doctrina
Jacobi nuper baptizati) states:
"[I] stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I
said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared
with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the
prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of
anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to
come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we
instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist....But you go, master
Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." So I,
Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was
no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of
men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is
incredible."
[The titular Jacob was a Jew forcibly converted to Christianity.]
> Judeo-Christianity is thereby a closed system
AFAIK, "Judeo-Christianity" doesn't exist.
>- Islam, aside from the fact that Arabs,
> supposedly the progeny of Ishmael, invented it, is completely
> unreleated to either of them.
Where, exactly, did Muhammad get the story of Ishmael? Vateled Hagar
l'Avram ben vayikra Avram shembeno asher yaleda Hagar Yishmael.
V'Avram ben shmonim shana veshesh shanim beledet Hagar et Yishmael
l'Avram. AND: Vayomer Elokhim aval Sarah ishtekha yoledet lekha ben
vekarata et shmo Yitschak vahakimoti et briti ito livrit olam lezar'o
akharav -- which is, of course, reversed in the much later Islamic
revision.
Deborah
dsharavi
What, actually, IS this "into the archive" shtuiyot?
Deborah
dsharavi
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:31:00 -0700 (PDT), coaster132000
>
> >On Mar 15, 8:37 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:07:49 -0700 (PDT), coaster132000
>
> >> <snip>
>
> >> >Into the archive.
>
> >> You're gonna need a second hard drive soon.
>
> >I print them in the most elaborate format complete with all the
> >identifying information.
>
> I'm happy you've found yourself a hobby.
What does it mean, though?
Deborah
drahcir
H is preparing a defamation lawsuit against me. I must admit I could
use some extra cash.
>Deborah
drahcir
I have read the Koran, or at least as much as I could stomach. That is
precisely what I meant by "plagiaristic".
>
>> Jesus was a Jew preaching against
>> what he saw as a perversion of the "true" Judaism.
>
>Does Christianity reflect that? No. What does the earliest Christian
>mention of Muhammad reflect? The c 640 Teaching of Jacob (Doctrina
>Jacobi nuper baptizati) states:
>
>"[I] stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I
>said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared
>with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the
>prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of
>anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to
>come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we
>instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist....But you go, master
>Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared." So I,
>Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was
>no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of
>men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is
>incredible."
>
>[The titular Jacob was a Jew forcibly converted to Christianity.]
I'm not following how the above addresses my observation about Jesus.
>
>> Judeo-Christianity is thereby a closed system
>
>AFAIK, "Judeo-Christianity" doesn't exist.
By that I mean Jesus was a Jew, he was preaching Judaism, and what we
call Christianity was at first a sect of Judaism. Islam is outside
that system.
>
>>- Islam, aside from the fact that Arabs,
>> supposedly the progeny of Ishmael, invented it, is completely
>> unreleated to either of them.
>
>Where, exactly, did Muhammad get the story of Ishmael?
Whoa, hold on, I am not suggesting that Arabs descend from Ishmael,
that's why I wrote "supposedly" - I posted something today that has
much evidence that Arabs cannot possibly be related to Ishmael.
Vateled Hagar
>l'Avram ben vayikra Avram shembeno asher yaleda Hagar Yishmael.
>V'Avram ben shmonim shana veshesh shanim beledet Hagar et Yishmael
>l'Avram. AND: Vayomer Elokhim aval Sarah ishtekha yoledet lekha ben
>vekarata et shmo Yitschak vahakimoti et briti ito livrit olam lezar'o
>akharav -- which is, of course, reversed in the much later Islamic
>revision.
Sorry, I have no idea what you just wrote.
Jason P
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:06:59 -0700 (PDT), dsharavi
>
>
>
>
> read more »
Anti-Semitism is a self-fulfilling phenomena caused by Jews and
brought down on Jews. It serves their darker self-interested
purpose.
Jason P
>
>
>
> >On Mar 16, 11:38 am, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT), dsharavi
>
Zev
news:2182c969-f829-4d87-ba8a-
f7f44b...@y31g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 16, 6:35 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:13a01429-abb3-48e2-8d5c-
>> a30ed7081...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Mar 15, 8:24 am, Zev <zev_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> "coaster132000" <coaster132...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:53c5460d-2e8a-4252-9360-
>> >> dc3f3eba6...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >You can't have it both ways.
>> >> > Love or hate. Take your pick.
>>
>> Catullus would have disagreed with you (Odi Et Amo).
>
> Good one.
Did you see the ensuing conversation on this?
It's Hunter at his "best" ;-)
The Peeler
the dumbest trolls around, whined:
>>
>> read more �
>
> Anti-Semitism is a self-fulfilling phenomena caused by Jews and
> brought down on Jews. It serves their darker self-interested
> purpose.
Anti-Semitism ALWAYS, without any exception, was and is the resort of
mentally, emotionally and sexually (and often even physically) handicapped
losers who need to project their personal misery and failures on some
scapegoat so they don't constantly have to face their own shortcomings.
EVERY dumb Nazi, without any exception, always was and is like that!
So, try to be honest for once, Slimy Jason Pee, has your anti-Semitism to do
with you being either mentally or emotionally or sexually or physically
crippled? Or perhaps everything combined? If you are unsure about it, ask
your doctors! <BG>
The Peeler
the dumbest trolls around, whined:
> On Mar 17, 5:08 pm, drahcir <s...@sgscc.com> wrote:
Anti-Semitism ALWAYS, without any exception, was and is the resort of
mentally, emotionally and sexually (and often even physically) handicapped
losers who need to project their personal misery and failures on some
scapegoat so they don't constantly have to face their own shortcomings.
EVERY dumb Nazi, without any exception, always was and is like that!
So, try to be honest for once, Slimy Jason Pee, has your anti-Semitism to do
with you being either mentally or emotionally or sexually or physically
crippled? Or perhaps everything combined? If you are unsure about it, ask
your doctors. <BG>
HHW
wrote:
Every culture has its own defects. Every culture has its detractors
and enemies. "Always, without any exception," none is free of
responsibility for its defects and their impacts on others. These
realities conflict with your theory. You might take a look a the
Yanomamo as a proof of my first proposition and the Jews regarding the
second. The third is a generalized moral concept which underlies the
law and militates against the impunity you argue for.
The Peeler
Bullshit! Point out ONE of the rabid anti-Semites here who is NOT, and most
obviously, a handicapped loser! Just ONE! <BG> The very fact that someone
keeps obsessing about another people during his entire life, makes another
people (whatever it's faults may be) the centre of his life, keeps trolling
in their groups, etc. reveals the psychotic background of anti-Semitism! No
buts about that!