'EVERYTHING YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT ISLAM IS TRUE' by Tim Dunkin
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
By Tim Dunkin
RenewAmerica
Wednesday, September 15, 2010
Once again, Islam has been in the news recently. And, as is typically
the case, the circumstances surrounding this state of affairs are not
positive, and the behavior of the Muslims involved provides yet
another public relations nightmare for a socio-religious system
already laboring under a mountain of self-inflicted wounds.
First, we have some crazy nut of an imam in New York City who wants
to build a triumphalistic "community center" (really, a mosque), just
two blocks from Ground Zero. As it turns out, this imam has a history
of doing all kinds of typically nutty Islamic things, such as calling
for the imposition of shari'a law in the United States. Imam Rauf has
managed to do what few others in America ever could, which is to
unite over 70% of the American people into opposition against
something. While some on the Left and in the Islamic community may
think that this whole "Ground Zero Mosque" affair is earning them
brownie points from a sympathetic public -- the dubious principle of
"any publicity is good publicity" seems to be in evidence here -- I
can assure them that this is not the case.
The second recent story about Islam was the declaration by a Florida
pastor named Terry Jones that his church was going to burn a
truckload of Qur'ans on the anniversary of 9-11. Personally, I think
that this proclamation was more a publicity stunt than anything else,
and I would caution conservatives and Christians against hitching
their wagons to Jones' horse. Pastor Jones is an apparent associate
of Fred Phelps and the Westboro "Baptist" Church out in Kansas -- a
cult group made up mostly of Phelps' own family, and which is most
well-known for picketing military funerals with signs saying things
like "God hates US soldiers" and so forth. As an aside, Phelps has
also in times past been a close associate of...Albert Gore, Jr.,
which leads me to suspect that Westboro "Baptist" Church is a front-
group used by the Left to try to tarnish the reputation of legitimate
Christianity in this country.
At any rate, what is disturbing about this affair is not the burning
of the Qur'an -- Jones has the right to do whatever he wants to with
his own property, which those Qur'ans presumably are. No, what is
disturbing is the typical Islamic response, which has ranged from
screeching idiots burning Bibles and US flags in front of American
embassies (to show us, I guess, that burning things is wrong) to
state-sanctioned death threats against Pastor Jones. It seems that
there are an awful lot of threats of murder from the Religion of
Peace™, does it not? To people paying attention and who can get past
the "mean ol' pastor is gonna burn a holy book" superficiality, the
message about Islam is voluminous.
Unfortunately, we have a lot of people in this country who aren't
paying attention. As a result, there are a lot of myths about Islam
that people seem to believe because the news media and Muslim
propagandists tell them to believe them. I'd like to take this
opportunity to address a few of these myths.
So what do I know about Islam? I've spent the last nine years
studying it -- its theology, its history, its philosophy. Yes, I've
read the Qur'an. I've even picked up a little Arabic along the way,
though I'm certainly not fluent. I've read broadly on this subject,
from secular, Western, Christian, and Islamic sources themselves.
I've digested everything I could get my hands on, from the most
technical and academic works that probably only a couple of thousand
other people in the world have read, to the most puerile, blatant
rah-rah propaganda put out by Muslim publishing houses from all
across the Muslim world. I've grounded myself in a knowledge of the
social, political, historical, and cultural milieu of the ancient
Near East leading all the way up to the rise of Islam and beyond.
I've even written a book about the subject, entitled Ten Myths About
Islam. http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html I am not
saying all this to toot my own horn. I am saying it so as to
demonstrate that I do, indeed, have some credibility to discuss this
topic that goes beyond "All I needed to know about Islam, I learned
on 9-11."
So let us start with the first pervasive myth that we often hear from
Muslims, which is that "Islam means peace." This argument represents
a common tactic that is used by Muslim apologists in the West, which
is to try to frame the discussion in such a way as to mislead, by
using Islamic terms that Muslims know Westerners will misconstrue. In
this case, it is technically true that the term "Islam" can mean
"peace" in Arabic. Islam is derived from the Arabic root form slm,
one of the meanings of which in Semitic languages can mean "peace"
(the Arabic word salaam is cognate with the Hebrew shalom, for
instance). However, as with all languages, the meaning of a word is
not determined by its denotation (its "dictionary" definition, so to
speak) only, but also by its connotation, the implied meaning that is
carried with the word in the minds of its native speakers.
In this case, "Islam" means peace -- but in a vastly different sense
from how Westerners and Americans think of it. When we hear the term
"peace," we think about people getting along together, people being
willing to tolerate each others' differences, and so forth. Not for
Islam. Islam's view of "peace" has to do with the other connotative
meaning of "Islam," which is "submission." Indeed, the term "Muslim"
most perfectly means "one who has submitted." For the Muslim, "peace"
means the absence of conflict that arises when there are no other
belief systems besides Islam. The way Islam brings peace to a land is
by terminating the existence, by one means or another, of all other
ways of life. Peace exists when everyone has submitted to the Islamic
system, either by converting or by accepting a position as third-
class citizens in their own countries. And of course, dead men tell
no tales.
Hence, when a Muslim tells you that "Islam means peace," he is being
truthful, but in a dishonest way. He is counting on you to apply your
definition of "peace" to the statement, when the Muslim really has in
mind his connotation of the term -- which is a far different thing
indeed.
This is, obviously, a form of lying, which brings me to my second
point, which is the claim often voiced that Muslim and Judeo-
Christian ethics and morals are the same, or at least are compatible,
allowing them to exist side by side in a pluralistic society. They
are not. While the Judeo-Christian tradition values things like
honesty, the Islamic does not. Indeed, the example given above of the
way Muslims approach the term "peace" is an example of taqiyya, which
is a device used by Muslims whereby they are allowed to lie to
infidels for the sake of concealing damaging information about Islam,
or to protect themselves. Using taqiyya, a Muslim may freely present
false or misleading information about Islam to an unbeliever, so long
as some sort of advancement of Islam is made. This may mean making
false claims, lying about terminology, or breaking an oath or treaty
once it becomes advantageous to Muslims to do so (more on this
below). Taqiyya is often coupled with kitman, which describes "mental
reservation" that Muslims will have when they outwardly engage in un-
Islamic behavior so as to fool an infidel. For instance, a Muslim may
present himself to Westerners as "moderate" or "assimilated" by
eating pork or drinking alcohol, relying upon his "mental
reservation" that he really disagrees with what he himself is doing,
but has to do it so as to stay "undercover," so to speak, thereby
absolving him of the act before Allah.
The Qur'an reports that the breaking of oaths to the infidel was
approved by Allah,
"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather
than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from
Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from
them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final
goal is to Allah." (Surah 3:28)"
In context, the text is telling Muslims that they may not take
infidels as friends -- unless doing so can be used to advance Islam,
in which case, Muslims may present themselves as false friends. The
use of dishonesty to gain the upper hand against the enemies of Islam
is demonstrated clearly in the ahadith (saying attributed to Mohammed
that are used to "fill out" the Qur'an). For instance, in one
situation, Mohammed absolved a Muslim warrior in advance because he
was going to have to use deception to fulfill his vow to kill an
enemy of Mohammed,
"According to Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Muhammad b. Ishaq- 'Abd Allah b.
Al- Mughith b. Abi Burdah: The Prophet said, "Who will rid me of Ibn
al-Ashraf?" Muhammad b. Maslamah, the brother of the Banu 'Abd al-
Ashshal said, "I will rid you of him, O Messenger of God. I will kill
him." "Do it then," he said, "if you can." Muhammad b. Maslamah went
back and remained for three days, neither eating nor drinking more
than would keep him alive. The
Messenger of God got to hear of this, so he summoned him and said to
him, "Why have you left off food and drink?" "O Messenger of God," he
said, "I said something, and I do not know whether or not I can
fulfill it." "All that you are obliged to do is try," he replied. "O
Messenger of God," he said, "we shall have to tell lies." "Say what
you like," he replied, "You are absolved in the matter." (from the
History of al-Tabari, Vol 7, p. 95)
Modern Muslim commentators agree -- Islam allows lying when it helps
Islam,
"Falsehood is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when
telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare,
and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the
truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person
who settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is
good." (A. al-Tabbarah, The Spirit of Islam, p. 255)
Keep in mind that "what is good" most definitely, for the faithful
Muslim, includes advancing Islam. Likewise, "settling conciliation
among people" can be construed as helping to establish the "peace"
that Muslims believe they are called to establish on earth.
One very pertinent outflowing of the taqiyya principle is that of the
hudna, or treaty of convenience. In such a case, Muslims are allowed
to make peace treaties with infidels, and then break them once they
have regained their strength and believe themselves to have the upper
hand again. The example of a hudna par excellence is found in the
Muslim mythology surround Mohammed. Mohammed negotiated a 10-year
peace treaty with the Meccans, against whom he had been fighting.
However, several years before the end of the treaty terms and once he
felt he had sufficient strength to defeat the Meccans, he launched a
surprise attack on Mecca and took the city. We see hudnas being
employed today in the many "peace agreements" that the Palestinians
and other Muslims will make with Israel, but will then break with
impunity once they think they have some sort of upper hand. They make
these agreements knowing full well that they do not intend to honor
the treaty stipulations. And, again, this is fully justified from the
Muslim traditions,
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people
(assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His
Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans...." (Surah
9:3)
Treaties made with unbelievers can be dissolved when the time comes
to dissolve them. This is why the Palestinians constantly declare
cease fires with the Israelis, but once they replenish their stocks
of rockets and mortars, they start firing at the Jews again without
warning. They never intended to honor the cease fires any longer than
it took for the next load of explosives to be smuggled in from Egypt.
All of this talk of war and broken treaties leads to my next point,
which is to address the claim that "Islam is a peaceful religion" and
that violent Muslims "only make up a small minority." As we saw with
their definition of peace" above, when Muslims talk about Islam being
a peaceful religion, they mean that it is a religion with a tendency
to try to force other religions and ways of life to submit to Islam -
- though that's not what they want you to think. Islam does, indeed,
have a long history of bloody conquest under the banner of jihad.
Indeed, most of the people groups across the world who are Muslim did
not get that way by peaceful persuasion. The Syrians? Conquered by
Muslim Arabs. The Egyptians? Conquered by Muslim Arabs. The Berbers
of North Africa? You guessed it -- conquered by Muslim Arabs. The
Indians who now make up what is today Pakistan? The Persians? The
Greeks in Asia Minor? The Bosnians? The Azerbaijanis? Yep, you
guessed it.
What's more, this violence to spread Islam is the rule, not the
exception. The Qur'an and the ahadith contain numerous injunctions
urging Muslims to fight against unbelievers. The sirat (biographies
of Mohammed written by early Muslims) contain numerous examples of
offensive violence on the part of Mohammed -- who is viewed by
Muslims as the supreme example to be emulated. For any Muslim to deny
that their religious writings are full of commands to offensive jihad
is simply and outrageously dishonest. Indeed, though most faithful,
traditionalist Muslims may not themselves be violent, they
nevertheless do support the principles of establishing Islam by the
sword, and often support the more radical elements who are
perpetrating violence.
Muslims will try to rebut this bloody history by using the tu quoque
fallacy, that is, they will try to distract away from the violence of
their own religion by trying to point to somebody else's. "What about
the Crusades?" they might say. Well, what about the Crusades? Those
were largely defensive wars designed to stop the Muslim threat to
Europe and to take back lands that had formerly been part of
Christendom, but had been forcibly taken for Islam. Further, the
Crusades were as much a secular as they were a religious enterprise.
Trying to use the Crusades as a counterbalance to fourteen centuries
of spreading Islam offensively by the sword is ridiculous.
Further, while the Qur'an and the ahadith explicitly command faithful
Muslims to wage "holy" war, the same cannot be said for the Bible. To
the extent that there was religious impetus behind the Crusades, that
was in spite of, rather than because of, the teaching of New
Testament Christianity. Nowhere in the life and times of Jesus Christ
do we see any example set by which faithful Christians would be
provoked to commit acts of violence against others for the sake of
spreading their religion. Indeed, the New Testament says exactly the
opposite,
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For
the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God
to the pulling down of strong holds...)" (II Corinthians 10:3-4)
To the extent that a Christian has a warfare for the sake of his
religion, it is a spiritual warfare. Anything else cannot rightly be
called "Christian."
This leads to another one of those counterintuitive falsehoods that
Muslims will tell us -- that jihad only refers to defensive warfare,
not offensive. The only time Muslims would ever engage in jihad, we
are told, is if they are attacked first.
There are several problems with this argument. First, it is simply
refuted by Islam's own history. For thirteen centuries, Muslims
routinely appealed to jihad for the advancement of Islam, to bring
more and more parts of the world into the deen (way of life) of
Islam. Historically, Muslims themselves have always understood that
jihad means offensive warfare. In fact, they were completely cool
with this. The initial Arab expansion was labeled a jihad. The Turks
justified their incursions into Europe on the basis of jihad. It
wasn't until the latter half of the 20th century, when it became
fashionable to portray the Muslim world as third-world victims of
horrible (Christian) European imperialism, that Muslim apologists
started arguing that jihad was only waged in self-defense. Before
that, jihad was something Muslims were proud to rely upon to prove to
the infidels that Islam was superior, by forcibly subjugating the
infidels to the Islamic way of life.
Oh, and never let anyone tell you that jihad only refers to some sort
of peaceful, inner struggle against temptation and sin. That is
completely unmitigated nonsense that has no historical, factual basis
whatsoever.
Another problem with the Muslim taqiyya about jihad is the definition
of "are attacked first." In the eyes of faithful Muslims, any slight
against Islam is an "attack." Supporting Israel is an "attack."
Allowing cartoonists to draw naughty pictures of Mohammed is an
"attack." The French legislature banning the burqah is an attack." It
doesn't matter if these "attacks" take place entirely within one of
our own countries -- it's still an attack upon Islam. Radical Muslims
have already, and will continue to, use these as pretexts for waging
holy war against the West. Their "defensive" war ends up being pretty
offensive, when you get right down to it.
The third problem with the "defensive war" argument lies in Islam's
peculiar view of world history. In the Islamic system, once a piece
of territory comes under Muslim control, by all rights it has to stay
under Muslim control. Any removal of land or populations from the
control of Islam, then, becomes a pretext for perpetual warfare to
regain it to whatever extent Muslims are able to wage it -- even if
the territory and populations were liberating themselves from Muslim
imperialism. This is much (but not all) of the reason why Muslims
hate Israel -- "Palestine" was ruled by Islam for over thirteen
centuries, so even though it is the Jews' own homeland, they no
longer have any right to it, in the Islamic worldview. The same goes
for any other place where Islam once ruled, but no longer does. Take,
for instance, Spain. The Spanish waged a centuries-long struggle to
liberate their own country from Islamic domination. The Muslims, in
turn, view the Spanish as having committed a grave affront to Allah.
This explains, for example, the statements about reclaiming "Al-
Andalus" (Spain) for Islam in some of Osama bin-Laden's videotaped
ramblings. What bin-Laden was saying is that Islam needs to reconquer
Spain.
As an aside, this ought to cause us to stop and think about some of
the odd, weird claims about history that Muslims will often make. For
instance, they claim that Offa, an early Anglo- Saxon king, converted
to Islam (without, of course, any historical evidence at all).
Likewise, a common Muslim claim is that Muslims discovered the New
World before Europeans, and even that the name "California" comes
from "Al- Kalifiyyah" (the Caliphate), supposedly showing that
Muslims had colonized it first. As laughable as these claims are,
what they really amount to is an attempt to give Islam a pretext for
waging this "defensive" jihad against the United Kingdom and the
United States, since our two countries supposedly were "once Muslim"
and need to be "returned" to the Islamic caliphate. The purpose for
these seemingly ridiculous-but-innocuous historical revisions is
really to "prepare the ground" for further warfare.
While we're on the subject of how Muslims deal with non-Muslim
peoples, let's talk about something called dhimmitude. It is not
uncommon for Muslim apologists in the West to declare that, along
with its astounding peacefulness and love for soft, cuddly teddy
bears, Islam is also a tolerant system, one in which Muslims and non-
Muslims live together in peace and harmony. Conversions to Islam,
they say, are voluntary and made by those who realized the truth and
logic of Islam.
Well, no. Historically, when Islam has conquered a country, one of
two sets of circumstances usually attained. If the country was not
one populated by "people of the Book" (i.e. Christians, Jews, or
Zoroastrians), then the population usually suffered an initial frenzy
of rapine, pillage, and bloodletting, followed by the imposition of
Islam onto whoever was left (for instance, this makes up a good deal
of Indian history from the 8th to the 19th centuries). If the country
was populated by "People of the Book," then the inhabitants were
given the "three choices" -- death, dhimmitude, or conversion.
Dhimmitude is, essentially, the reduction of a native population who
didn't want to die, but yet who also didn't want to convert to Islam,
to a place of third-class citizenship within their own country. The
origin of this institution lay in the dhimma, a "treaty" which
victorious Muslims would force onto conquered populations in which
the Muslims agreed to "protect" the infidels in return for their
(involuntary) support of the Islamic state and their humility before
Muslims. Think of it, in a sense, as a giant, worldwide protection
racket.
Dhimmis, as the infidels are then known, could continue to practice
their religion, but they could not in any way let it be publicly
seen. They were not allowed to rebuild or repair churches or
synagogues which fell into disrepair. They were not allowed to ring
bells or issue calls to prayer. They certainly were not allowed to
evangelize or to dispute about religion with Muslims. No dhimmi
church or synagogue could stand taller than the local Muslim mosque -
- if they did, the steeples would be knocked down. Dhimmis also had
to pay a special, prohibitive tax called the jizyah, which was levied
only upon conquered populations.
On a personal level, no dhimmi could hold any sort of public office,
could not testify in court against a Muslim, could not pursue any
legal action against Muslims, or even seek redress should they be
cheated or stolen from by a Muslim. They could not ride upon a horse,
and had to dismount from a donkey if in the presence of a Muslim
(these were signs of humiliation and the superiority of the Muslim).
In many districts, dhimmis had to wear special clothing that clearly
marked them out for ridicule and separation.
All in all, the purpose of these disabilities was to "encourage" the
dhimmis to convert to Islam. Either way, dhimmis supported the
Islamic state, either through their taxes, or by becoming Muslim and
lending their manpower to it. However, the prime purpose was to force
the conquered populations to adopt Islam. This is shown historically.
In the very early Islamic state after Muslims had conquered much of
the Middle East and North Africa, these dhimma stipulations had not
yet been implemented, and consequently Muslims remained a small
minority among a sea of conquered peoples. Around the middle of the
8th century, however, a series of hardline caliphs came to power who
began to lay greater and greater hardships on these populations. It
is only then that we find in the archaeological and historical
records that significant numbers of people began to convert to Islam.
Clearly, the penalties were what did the converting, not the logical
sense and reason of the Islamic religious system.
Another thing that often happened in dhimmi lands was the destruction
and/or conversion of their major buildings, religious or secular,
into symbols of Islamic superiority. For instance, when the Turks
conquered Constantinople, they turned the Hagia Sofia into a mosque -
- specifically to show the superiority of Islam over Christianity. In
the same way, they converted the Church of St. John in Damascus into
the Great Mosque of the Umayyads. The Temple Mount in Jerusalem was
coopted, and the Dome of the Rock was built, taking Judaism's holiest
site, and converting it into an Islamic centerpiece.
And that, folks, is what the Ground Zero Mosque is really all about.
The World Trade Center had long been the object of Muslim hatred,
since it represented in their eyes the power and capacity of Western
commercialism and capitalism (both of which are inimical to
traditional Islam). Islam felt that it won a great victory the day
Muslim terrorists brought the towers down on September 11, 2001. By
building a mosque at the site of the towers' destruction, this is a
way of proclaiming the superiority of Islam over America and the
American way of life. What once was the center of American capitalist
power will soon have a Muslim mosque on it, if Rauf gets his way --
and that will send a message to the entire Muslim world that America
is a dhimmi land.
There are many, many more things I could discuss in this essay --
I've only really touched on some of the major points in which Muslims
will try to persuade people that what they see before their own eyes
is not really true. I could discuss any number of other areas --
Muslim anti-Semitism, the treatment of women, the false claims about
Islam being "the fastest growing religion in the world," the eclectic
and manmade origins of the Qur'an, even such surprising topics as the
likelihood that Mohammed as a historical person probably didn't
really exist, or that Allah is not the same as the God of the Bible,
but is instead a monotheistic form of the ancient Middle Eastern moon
and fertility god Hubal. Again, please check out my book online to
see discussion of these and a whole lot more.
The take home message is this -- don't let yourself be sidetracked by
the propaganda. History tells us something far different from what
the apologists tell us who are trying to convince us that a Ground
Zero mosque is a great yet innocuous thing, or that Muslims only hate
Israel because the "Palestinian homeland" was ruthlessly stolen by
rapacious, imperialistic Zionists. Once we begin to see how the
Muslims actually think about things, we can understand why they do
many of the things they do, and be forewarned about what their next
moves may be. Make no mistake -- there IS a clash of civilizations
going on. It is one which Islam has initiated, but which we must be
prepared to face and fight if we are to maintain our culture,
civilization, and way of life.
More at:
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/dunkin/100915
Jai Maharaj, Jyotishi
Om Shanti
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fanabba
Dhanyavaad for your informative postings !
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
fanabba <fan...@aol.com> posted:
> Dr. Jai Maharaj posted:
> > Peace=99, does it not? To people paying attention and who can get past
> > the "mean ol' pastor is gonna burn a holy book" superficiality, the
> > message about Islam is voluminous.
> >
> > Unfortunately, we have a lot of people in this country who aren't
> > paying attention. As a result, there are a lot of myths about Islam
> > that people seem to believe because the news media and Muslim
> > propagandists tell them to believe them. I'd like to take this
> > opportunity to address a few of these myths.
> >
> > So what do I know about Islam? I've spent the last nine years
> > studying it -- its theology, its history, its philosophy. Yes, I've
> > read the Qur'an. I've even picked up a little Arabic along the way,
> > though I'm certainly not fluent. I've read broadly on this subject,
> > from secular, Western, Christian, and Islamic sources themselves.
> > I've digested everything I could get my hands on, from the most
> > technical and academic works that probably only a couple of thousand
> > other people in the world have read, to the most puerile, blatant
> > rah-rah propaganda put out by Muslim publishing houses from all
> > across the Muslim world. I've grounded myself in a knowledge of the
> > social, political, historical, and cultural milieu of the ancient
> > Near East leading all the way up to the rise of Islam and beyond.
> > I've even written a book about the subject, entitled Ten Myths About
> > Islam. =A0http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html=A0I am not
> > =A0 =A0 =A0o =A0Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the =
> educational
> > purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may n=
> ot
> > have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of th=
> e
> > poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
> > fair use of copyrighted works.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0o =A0If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be r=
> ead,
> > considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, curre=
> nt
> > e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
> > =A0 =A0 =A0o =A0Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by=
> others are
> > not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the arti=
> cle.
> >
> > FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
> > which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
> > owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
> > understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
> > democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believe=
> d
> > that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
> > provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with T=
> itle
> > 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
> > profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the incl=
> uded
> > information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
> > subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more informat=
> ion
> > go to: =A0http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
> > If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
> > your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> > copyright owner.
> >
> > Since newsgroup posts are being removed
> > by forgery by one or more net terrorists,
> > this post may be reposted several times.
> Dhanyavaad for your informative postings !
You are welcome!
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/16/butler-oops-hindus-did-it/
B: “A?”
A: “Aye to you too, Boss.”
B: I am thinking.”
A: “Oh! Me too. I love thin-king-ing.”
B: “A?”
A: Yes Boss?”
B: “Not thin kings and fat kings.”
A: “How about bad kings and broad kings?”
B: “Are you smoking ganja again, A?”
A: “No Boss. Not particularly. I ain’t smoking no ganja, no charas, no
LSD, no Hindutva. I ain’t smokin’ nuttin’”
B: “Be serious then. I am thinking.”
A: “Boss, you mean you are thinking seriously or seriously thinking?”
B: Is there any difference?”
A: “Sure Boss. a great difference. When I used to smoke Hindutva I
used to think big. I used to imagine that this entire earth belongs to
Hindus. I used to think that world would be a better place if all
Muslims, all Christians, all Commies, all commie tribal terrorists
were to be eliminated.”
B: “Then what happened to your dream, oops, plans?”
A: “Boss. I am so ashamed that that was a bad dream. A Hindu
halucination, oops, holy Hindu, goddamned halucination.”
B: “Good. I am glad you stopped smoking Hindutva. Come to thnk about
Hindutva, I think it is dead.”
A: “What is dead?”
B: “Hindutva, you dummy. Now Hindu hoodlums have some more potent and
deadly prohibited substance in the making.”
A: “Pray tell, Boss. What could be more potent and more deadly than
Hindutva?”
B: “Good governance. Hindu Swabhiman. ‘kR^nvantivishvamaaryam,’
Sanskrit for make the world Arya, aka Hindu.”
A: “Good thinking. Let’s smoke some potent Hindu prohibited
substances.”
B: “Which one do you prefer?”
A: “Which one do you prefer?”
B: “I asked you first.”
A: “No you ain’t.”
B: “Yes,
Pakistan: The Worsening IDP Crisis
Asia Briefing N°111
16 Sep 2010
OVERVIEW
The monsoon floods in Pakistan have caused massive destruction and
turned a displacement crisis in the insecure western borderlands into
a national disaster of mammoth proportions. When the floods hit,
almost all those displaced from Malakand had returned home and were
struggling to rebuild lives in a region where much of the
infrastructure had been destroyed in fighting; 1.4 million more
displaced from the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) were
living in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) province. The disaster would have
proved challenging under any circumstance. The fragile civilian
government, already tackling an insurgency, and its institutions,
neglected during nine years of military rule, lack the capacity and
the means to provide sufficient food, shelter, health and sanitation
without international assistance. The Pakistan government and
international actors should ensure those in the flood-devastated
conflict zones are urgently granted the assistance they need to
survive and to rebuild lives and livelihoods. If military objectives
dictate rehabilitation and reconstruction efforts, a population
exhausted by conflict could become a soft target for militants, making
stability in the northwest even more elusive.
In July 2009, the Pakistani military initiated the return of an
estimated 2.8 million people displaced by militancy and military
operations in the Malakand region of KPK. Named Niwa- e-Seher (new
dawn), this return process supposedly affirmed the military’s success
against militant networks in Swat and other parts of the Provincially
Administered Tribal Areas (PATA). The same principle is being
replicated in FATA where some 1.4 million people have been displaced
by militancy and military operations.
The humanitarian crisis in FATA has received significantly less
attention than displacement from KPK’s Malakand region. Many have
been unable to register or receive assistance due to the military’s
tight control over access to humanitarian agencies in KPK’s Internally
Displaced Person (IDP) hosting areas and continued security threats.
In parts of FATA, most notably Bajaur agency, families have been
forced to flee repeatedly because of a militant resurgence. Yet
relying on the pace of returns as an indicator of success in anti-
Taliban operations, the military has largely determined the
humanitarian agenda, with scant objection from the international
community. With the militants once again escalating their campaign of
violence in the tribal belt, FATA’s IDPs must not be compelled to
return home before the threats to their safety subside.
Deprived of resources, fiscal and human, during more than nine years
of military rule, Pakistan’s civilian administrative and humanitarian
apparatus is now severely tested by the worst flooding in the
country’s history. One fifth of the country and more than 20 million
people have been affected. Some of the worst damage is in Khyber
Pakhtunkhwa, where the largest numbers of lives have been lost and
where homes, schools, hospitals, agriculture, factories and the
communication infrastructure are devastated, and crops and livestock
lost. The state’s response has been slow as a result of multiple
factors – ill-equipped and under-resourced state relief organs, the
absence of civil-military coordination and ineffective civilian
control over military-led efforts.
This inadequate response has angered and alienated hundreds of
thousands of returnees, making them vulnerable to jihadi propaganda
and recruitment. International assistance has begun to pour in but on
a scale that is still far too modest to meet the enormous needs of
urgent relief. In the months ahead, civilian-led mechanisms, which
include the involvement of affected communities, credible secular
NGOs, professional organisations and the provincial and national
parliaments, will be crucial if the massive challenges of
rehabilitation and reconstruction are to be effectively tackled.
Prior to the floods, the humanitarian community had prepared the draft
of a major policy document, the Post-Conflict Needs Assessment (PCNA),
to identify development needs, propose political reforms in Malakand
and FATA, and devise a strategy for their implementation. As this
document is being rewritten to reflect the challenges posed by the
floods, any post-conflict plan must reaffirm civilian supremacy and
recommend PATA and FATA’s integration into the constitutional,
political and legal mainstream. The impact of the floods on Malakand’s
returnees or on FATA’s IDPs is not yet clear, but as relief again
becomes a top priority, all assistance, local and international, must
be delinked from the military’s institutional interests and
directives, even granting the importance of the military’s logistics
capabilities during rescue and emergency relief operations. The
civilian government and donors should also seize this opportunity to
ensure that rehabilitation and reconstruction efforts meet the needs
of their intended beneficiaries, and bolster civilian institutional
capacity and authority at the same time.
The Pakistan government should:
•Devise a rehabilitation and reconstruction policy in FATA and KPK
based on broad consultation with representatives of conflict and flood-
affected communities, credible local NGOs and professional
organisations, and the national and provincial parliaments.
•Develop a central role for the national and provincial parliaments in
maintaining oversight over government and donor expenditure, through
their public accounts committees, particularly for large-scale
infrastructure projects in FATA and KPK, and award contracts for such
projects through competitive and transparent bidding.
•Revive assistance to FATA’s IDPs, suspended in response to the
floods, and demonstrate commitment to the principle of voluntary
returns by continuing assistance to those who choose not to return.
•Ensure that registration and assistance for FATA’s IDPs and flood-
affected communities is civilian-led and based on vulnerability rather
than location; and permanently remove all restrictions, including No
Objection Certificates, for humanitarian agencies, as well as all
requirements for such agencies to share confidential data on
beneficiaries with the military.
•Implement earlier pledges to incorporate FATA into the
constitutional, political and legal mainstream, with a robust and
accountable criminal justice sector.
The international community should:
•Help build civilian disaster management capacity at the national,
provincial and district levels – including registration of flood-
affected communities, the provision of assistance and the execution of
large-scale reconstruction – and oppose a military role beyond rescue
and immediate relief.
•Ensure that relief and rehabilitation is non-discriminatory and
based on independent assessments of local needs, with representative
community-level committees exercising oversight over the disbursement
of assistance, with beneficiaries identified according to civilian
rather than military-determined criteria.
•Address urgent short-term needs of flood-affected communities in KPK
and FATA, including shelter, health and education; revive the
agricultural sector; and provide material assistance as well as cash
transfers.
•Develop effective oversight and accountability mechanisms over donor
funding that include affected communities and national civil society
organisations and elected representatives.
Islamabad/Brussels, 16 September 2010
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
16/09/2010
« His Master’s Voice
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
navanavonmilita
http://bakulaji.typepad.com/blog/2010/09/senate-passes-bill-to-aid-small-businesses-httpwwwnytimescom20100917us17conghtmlpartnerrssemcrss-drew-an.html
« Google Sued by Skyhook Wireless
09/16/2010
Senate Passes Bill to Aid Small Businesses
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/us/17cong.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
Drew Angerer/The New York Times
From left, Senators Mary Landrieu, Carl Levin, Debbie Stabenow, Maria
Cantwell, and Amy Klobuchar on Thursday before a news conference on
the passage of the small business bill.
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Published: September 16, 2010
WASHINGTON — The Senate on Thursday approved a multi-billion dollar
package of tax breaks and government-backed loans for small
businesses, as Democrats surmounted months of opposition by Republican
leaders. Backers say the bill could spur business growth and new
hiring.
“Small businesses are the major job creators in our economy, and this
legislation will ensure that our small businesses have the tax
incentives and credit they need to expand and hire,” said Senator
Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California.
The vote on the small-business measure was 61 to 38, with just two
Republicans, George V. Voinovich of Ohio and George LeMieux of
Florida, joining Democrats in voting in favor. The legislation now
goes to the House, where leaders hope to quickly win approval and send
it to President Obama, who is eager to sign it.
In addition to providing tax breaks and enhancing a number of existing
aid programs run by the Small Business Administration, the legislation
would create a $30 billion lending program administered by the
Treasury to channel government-back loans through community banks.
Asked if he was disappointed that more Republicans had not supported
the measure, Mr. LeMieux said, “I’m just glad we were able to pass
it.” He noted that Florida has more than 2 million small businesses
that stand to benefit from the legislation.
Other Republicans said that while the measure had some worthwhile
elements, it did not go far enough to reduce the anxiety of business
operators.
“Any good in this bill is greatly outweighed by what’s missing,” said
Senator Orrin Hatch, Republican of Utah.
The small-business bill is likely to be the last major piece of
legislation on economic and jobs issues that Democrats can accomplish
before lawmakers leave Washington in early October to turn their full
attention to campaigning.
Senate Approves Tax Cuts, Eased Credit for Small Businesses
By Brian Faler - Sep 16, 2010 3:38 PM ET
Business
ExchangeTwitterDeliciousDiggFacebookLinkedInNewsvinePropellerYahoo!
BuzzPrint U.S. President Barack Obama. Photographer: Andrew Harrer/
Bloomberg
The U.S. Senate approved legislation to cut taxes and ease credit for
small businesses in a long-delayed victory for Democrats eager to show
voters they are working to create jobs.
The legislation, passed 61-38, would create a $30 billion lending
program and provide small businesses with $12 billion in tax breaks,
including more generous write-offs for equipment purchases. Approval
sends the bill to the House for a final vote before it goes to
President Barack Obama for his signature.
The measure was held up for months by Republicans who said it amounted
to a miniature version of 2008’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, with
insufficient safeguards to ensure that taxpayers recoup the loans.
Democrats broke a filibuster two days ago with the help of retiring
Republican Senators George Voinovich of Ohio and George LeMieux of
Florida.
“Reinvigorating our economy in the short run and rebuilding it over
the long term is not a one-step process,” Obama said today. “But this
is a critically important one and I am grateful to those senators on
the Republican side of the aisle willing to take this vote on behalf
of America’s small- business owners.”
Lawmakers turned aside a Republican bid today to attach provisions to
extend a tax credit for private research and development programs.
‘Stunt’
Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, a Montana Democrat,
called the effort a “stunt,” saying lawmakers need more time to work
on the proposal. He said senators will take the matter up later this
year.
The lending bill is designed to help small business owners who have
seen the value of real estate and other types of loan collateral
sapped by the recession, said Michigan Democrat Carl Levin.
“Businesses with plenty of customers, excellent credit histories, have
been unable to get the financing they have relied on and need,
endangering existing jobs and preventing the creation of new jobs,”
Levin said.
Republicans said the program would encourage banks to make risky loans
that may go bad by providing increased subsidies to those that boost
loans beyond certain thresholds.
‘Real Demand’
Senator Bob Corker, a Tennessee Republican, said, “We all need to calm
down and let individuals’ balance sheets recover and save and we’ll
have demand that’s based on real demand, not artificial demand.”
Bill Rys, tax counsel for the National Federation of Independent
Business, said in an interview that small businesses have had “some
problem” securing loans. Still, he said the group’s surveys have found
that businesses are more concerned with poor sales, uncertainty over
future tax rates, government regulations and the cost of health
insurance.
The new lending program would be reserved for banks with less than $10
billion in assets. Banks would be allowed to drop out of the program
without penalty if the government later makes significant changes to
its rules, said Paul Merski, senior vice president of the Washington-
based Independent Community Bankers of America.
That provision is designed to ensure that participants won’t suffer
the same fate as those that took TARP money, only to later find
themselves subject to government restrictions on executive
compensation, he said.
“It’s a very legitimate concern,” said Merski. “You have a get-out-of-
jail free card here.”
Lawmakers rejected a proposal earlier this week that would have
rescinded a requirement in the health-care overhaul passed earlier
this year that small businesses provide more extensive documentation
of their purchases to the Internal Revenue Service. Senators were
unable to agree on how to make up revenue that would have been lost to
the Treasury.
The lending legislation is H.R. 5297.
To contact the reporter on this story: Brian Faler in Washington at
bfa...@bloomberg.net.
...and I am Sid Harth
Posted at 05:17 PM | Permalink
Moorthy
is practised across the globe. However, the author has overlooked an
important issues which need clarification. It is the use of
demographic aggression which is relentless in infidel majority nations
across Europe, India and USA, its orchestrated from mosques by clerics
to outbreed infidels by having huge families and that too at very
young age. Another important tactic is to insist on raising children
of mixed religion marriages as Muslims regardless whether a male or
female marries an infidel. Although Muslim men may come across as
being enlightened, resonable and liberal in allowing an infidel
females to retain their respective religions, but what is often goes
unnoticed is that these females and all their offsprings have no
choice except Islam.
On 15 Sep, 20:19, use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai
Moorthy
is practised across the globe. However, the author has overlooked an
demographic aggression which is relentless in infidel majority
nations
by clerics
to outbreed infidels by having huge families and that too at very
young age. Another important tactic is to insist on raising children
of mixed religion marriages as Muslims regardless whether a male or
as
being enlightened, resonable and liberal in allowing an infidel
offsprings have no
choice except to accept that all offsrings from such marriages have to
be Muslims.
Then they have gall to talk about Quran saying no compulsion in
religion!
On 15 Sep, 20:19, use...@mantra.com and/or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai
Maharaj) wrote:
> who settles conciliation among ...
>
> read more »
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
Moorthy
>
> read more »
Awesome, I had overlooked the website link!
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/17/nuclear-secrets-hogwash/
Los Alamos Pair Held In Nuclear Secrets Case
by NPR Staff and Wires
September 17, 2010 A former scientist at the Los Alamos National
Laboratory in New Mexico, who left following a dispute over funding,
and his wife — who also worked at the facility — face federal charges
in a sting operation built on the scientist’s alleged offer to help
build Venezuela a nuclear bomb.
Pedro Leonardo Mascheroni, 75, and Marjorie Roxby Mascheroni, 67, were
charged in a 22-count indictment returned Thursday in a federal court
in Albuquerque, N.M.
NPR’s Carrie Johnson tells All Things Considered co-host Melissa Block
that Pedro Mascheroni worked in a secret unit called the X Division.
The scientist held a Q-level security clearance that allowed him
access to certain classified information, including “restricted data.”
“He got into a big fight with the Department of Energy after speaking
out over its failure to fund a project that he highly supported,”
Johnson says. “The government wound up investigating him and yanked
his security clearance in 1987. He ultimately left and filed a
lawsuit.
“Sources tell me he kept on being disgruntled all these years,” she
says.
Although he had his security clearance pulled more than 20 years ago,
Mascheroni was still believed to have posed a danger, Johnson says.
“Sources are telling me that everything he needed to know he kept in
his head,” she says. “He was able to reconstruct most of what he
wanted to know and tell the Venezuelan government allegedly by just
thinking back to his experience in the business.”
FBI agents arrested the pair on Friday morning; they made an initial
court appearance in Albuquerque later in the day.
“The conduct alleged in this indictment is serious and should serve as
a warning to anyone who would consider compromising our nation’s
nuclear secrets for profit,” said Assistant U.S. Attorney General
David Kris in a statement.
According to a Justice Department statement, Pedro Mascheroni first
spoke in March 2008 with an undercover FBI agent posing as a
Venezuelan government official. During a series of conversations,
Mascheroni allegedly laid out a program that he said could help
Venezuela develop a nuclear bomb within a decade, using a secret,
underground reactor to enrich plutonium.
In July 2008, Mascheroni allegedly delivered a coded, 132-page
document detailing the operation to a post office box prearranged as a
“dead drop.”
He later received an initial payment of $20,000 and discussed payments
with an eventual price tag of at least $800,000 for subsequent
information, the Justice Department statement said.
An August 2009 meeting with an undercover agent was followed several
months later by direct questioning of the Mascheronis by FBI agents,
the Justice Department said. Both made a series of false statements in
response, according to the indictment.
Mascheroni was described as a naturalized U.S. citizen from Argentina;
his wife, simply as a U.S. citizen. Pedro Mascheroni became a citizen
in 1972.
The charges against the Mascheronis could return a potential sentence
of life in prison.
The Justice Department takes care to note that neither the government
of Venezuela nor anyone acting on its behalf “sought or was passed any
classified information.” No Venezuelan officials are charged with
wrongdoing, nor are any persons now employed at the Los Alamos lab.
According to the Justice Department release, Mascheroni, a physicist,
worked as a scientist at the lab from 1979 to 1988.
His wife worked there between 1981 and 2010, where her duties included
technical writing and editing. She also held a security clearance at
the lab that allowed her access to certain classified information,
including “restricted data.”
Prosecutors say she went along with her husband’s plan, accompanied
him to drop off documents and even edited some of his materials.
The Atomic Energy Act defines “restricted data” as classified
information concerning the design, manufacture or use of atomic
weapons; the production of special nuclear material; or the use of
special nuclear material in the production of energy.
The indictment charges the defendants with conspiring to communicate
and communicating “restricted data” to an individual with the intent
to injure the United States and secure an advantage to a foreign
nation.
They are also charged with conspiring to and attempting to participate
in the development of an atomic weapon, as well as conspiring to
convey and conveying classified “restricted data.”
The indictment further charges Pedro Mascheroni with concealing and
retaining U.S. records with the intent to convert them to his own use
and gain, as well as six counts of making false statements. Marjorie
Mascheroni is also charged with seven counts of making false
statements.
In an interview last year with The Associated Press, Mascheroni said
that the U.S. government was wrongly targeting him. His home was
searched last October and the FBI seized computers, letters,
photographs, books and cell phones.
At the time, Mascheroni said he had approached Venezuela after the
United States rejected his theories that a hydrogen-fluoride laser
could produce nuclear energy.
Mascheroni has said he thought the Venezuelan government wanted him to
produce a study on how to build a nuclear weapons program. In return,
he asked for $800,000, which he said he planned to use for his
scientific research on nuclear fusion in hopes of persuading Congress
to take a look at his theories.
Mascheroni has said that in 2008 he gave a computer disk with
unclassified information to a man claiming to represent Venezuela. He
was paid $20,000, but never spent the money and it was recovered by
FBI agents during their search.
The $20,000 in cash was left in a drop box at the Albuquerque airport,
Mascheroni told AP.
In July 2008, Mascheroni said he received a formal request via e-mail
from his Venezuelan contact to write a study for how to build a
nuclear weapons program.
Mascheroni told AP that he finished the study in November 2008 and,
following directions, placed a CD containing only unclassified
information available on the Internet, which he already had provided
to congressional staffers, inside a post office box at the Albuquerque
airport.
Later, he told AP, he received an e-mail telling him to return to the
same post office box where he found a note that said there was $20,000
in $100 bills inside an envelope.
Comments on:
Los Alamos Pair Held In Nuclear Secrets Case
Recent First
Sid Harth (navanavonmilita) wrote:
Nuclear Secrets? Hogwash!
American government is planning all out attack against their greatest
enemy in South America. Venezuela. This kind of shitnews in this day
and age is simply preposterous. Unbelievable and damned false.
…and I am Sid Harth
Friday, September 17, 2010 7:28:49 PM
Sameer Garach (sameerg8) wrote:
“I am become death, the destroyer of worlds” – Oppenheimer reading
from the Bhagawad Gita upon creation of the nuclear bomb.
Friday, September 17, 2010 6:44:51 PM
Paul D (pixelD) wrote:
This is disturbing. This couple obviously had detailed technical
information and plans for military grade reactors, and the means and
processes for building them.
That they would sell this to a foreign nation.. One that is currently
pretty hostile to us is just plain old fashioned treason. Oh and for a
mere 800k. It would seem treason comes on the cheap.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:30:55 PM
Paul D (pixelD) wrote:
@Steve Carr … errr.. we did have Nazis work on our space rockets. In
fact most of our early success with rockets came from engineers we
bought over from Germany after the war. Some were flaming Nazis. Or
was that sarcasm.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:27:04 PM
Recommend (2)
Sven B. H. Manguard (Underwhelmed_One) wrote:
Art Aficionado (Art_Aficionado) wrote:
That’s all we need is a nuclear taco.
- – -
1. Tacos are Mexican, and by that I mean that they are in their
present form an American bastardization of a Mexican invention.
2. Putting radioactive material in a taco is still probably safer than
getting one from Taco Bell.
3. You are a bigot, and your contribution offers little to the
discourse.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:25:56 PM
Recommend (5)
Evan James (Monukkha) wrote:
laura hunt (laurahunt:
Sell our country?! By helping another country develop nuclear
technology? Wake up, genius! WE HAVE MORE NUKES THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY
IN THE WORLD!
And guess what, every one of them could potentially cause harm to
millions of people. Furthermore, nuclear technology is not some secret
that only we possess.
Do you think your country would protect you if the major nuclear
powers start firing missiles at each other? If you do, then you’re
even more dumb than you sound in your comment.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:14:34 PM
Recommend (3)
Art Aficionado (Art_Aficionado) wrote:
That’s all we need is a nuclear taco.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:03:38 PM
Sven B. H. Manguard (Underwhelmed_One) wrote:
A lot of the people who worked on the atomic bomb (Einstein is
included on this list despite his lack of any major contributions)
were Jewish. J. Robert Oppenheimer, Hans Bethe, Albert Einstein,
Richard Feynman, Robert Serber, and Edward Teller to name a few of the
major players.
If you want to question the loyalty of Teller and Bathe, just remember
they had a very personal reason to want to end the war, and a deep
hatered for the Nazis.
Friday, September 17, 2010 5:02:31 PM
laura hunt (laurahunt) wrote:
How nice. These two “grandparent” age people are willing to sell the
coun try for less then a million dollars. Imagine not having a problem
with potentially causing harm to millions of people. throw the book at
them
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:58:03 PM
j dub (jodiesattva) wrote:
Um. How did this series of conversations begin? Had the scientist been
soliciting random foreign government officials to make a little cash
on the side? Or did our government decide run a sting to catch foreign
scientists trying to steal/sell our secrets? Seriously, how does stuff
like this happen?
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:50:38 PM
kent pruefer (peregrn) wrote:
Don’t forget Albert
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:37:51 PM
Recommend (1)
Steve Carr (McEwin) wrote:
Yeah, why’d we let Enrico Fermi, Edward Teller, Hans Bethe, and those
other foreigners work on *our* A and H bombs? Next thing you know
we’ll have Nazis working on our moon rockets.
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:16:31 PM
Recommend (13)
Anthony Walls (Calused) wrote:
Why we would ever let someone who is not an American work on our top
secret nuclear program is beyond me.
Friday, September 17, 2010 4:11:23 PM
Recommend (6)
Steve Carr (McEwin) wrote:
With apologies to Tom Lehrer:
First we got the bomb, and that was good,
‘Cause we love peace and motherhood.
Then Russia got the bomb, but that’s okay,
‘Cause the balance of power’s maintained that way.
Who’s next?
Tehran’s gonna get one too,
Just to use on you know who.
So Israel’s getting tense.
Wants one in self defense.
“The Lord’s our shepherd,” says the Psalm,
But just in case: we better get a bomb.
Who’s next?
Then George W claimed that he’d
Proof Sadam had WMD
We’ll try to stay serene and calm
When Venezuela gets the bomb.
Who’s next?
Friday, September 17, 2010 3:46:38 PM
Recommend (7)
Couple Charged in Nuclear Weapons Secrets Case
Ex-Los Alamos scientist, wife accused of conspiring to help Venezuela
develop nuclear weapon
The Associated Press
By SUE MAJOR HOLMES Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON September 17, 2010 (AP)
A scientist and his wife who both once worked at Los Alamos National
Laboratory were arrested Friday after FBI agents allegedly lured them
into what they were told was a conspiracy to help develop a nuclear
weapon for Venezuela.
They were accused of offering nuclear weapons secrets to Venezuela,
but the U.S. government is not alleging Venezuela or anyone working
for it sought U.S. secrets.
Pedro Leonardo Mascheroni, 75, and Marjorie Roxby Mascheroni, 67, a
U.S. citizen, were arrested Friday, a day after they were indicted.
They appeared in federal court in Albuquerque, where Mascheroni, a
naturalized U.S. citizen from Argentina, was ordered held pending
another hearing Monday morning. His wife was released under strict
conditions.
Kenneth Gonzales, U.S. attorney for New Mexico, said the indictment
does not allege the government of Venezuela or anyone acting on its
behalf sought or was passed any classified information. Gonzales did
not take questions after giving a brief statement to reporters.
It’s been known for about a year that Mascheroni was under
investigation — the FBI last October seized computers, letters,
photographs, books and cell phones from the couple’s Los Alamos home.
In an interview with The Associated Press at the time, he said he
believed the U.S. government was wrongly targeting him as a spy. He
has denied the accusation.
Mascheroni said in the interview that he approached Venezuela after
the United States rejected his theories that a hydrogen-fluoride laser
could produce nuclear energy.
According to the 22-count indictment, Mascheroni told the undercover
agent he could help Venezuela develop a nuclear bomb within 10 years
and that Venezuela would use a secret, underground nuclear reactor to
produce and enrich plutonium, and an open, aboveground reactor to
produce nuclear energy.
If convicted, the Mascheronis face up to life in prison.
Many previous FBI spy sting cases have begun this way: U.S.
intelligence learns, often by electronic surveillance, that someone in
this country is trying to contact a foreign power to offer their
services or U.S. secrets. Then the FBI has an undercover agent pose as
a representative of that country to respond favorably, cultivate a
relationship and see what, if any, secrets the person tries to pass or
sell.
Mascheroni worked in the nuclear weapons design division at the Los
Alamos lab from 1979 until he was laid off in 1988. His wife, a
technical writer, worked there between 1981 and 2010.
He told AP last year he was motivated by his belief in cleaner, less
expensive and more reliable nuclear weapons and power. He began
approaching other countries after his ideas were rejected by the lab
and, later, congressional staffers.
In July 2008, the undercover FBI agent provided Mascheroni with 12
questions purportedly from Venezuelan military and scientific
personnel.
The criminal charges allege Mascheroni delivered to a post office box
in November 2008 a disk with a coded 132-page document on it that
contained “restricted data” related to nuclear weapons. Written by
Mascheroni and edited by his wife, the document was entitled “A
Deterrence Program for Venezuela” and laid out Mascheroni’s nuclear
weapons development program for Venezuela.
Mascheroni stated the information he was providing was worth millions
of dollars, and that his fee for producing the document was $793,000,
the indictment alleges.
Earlier in the investigation, Mascheroni allegedly asked the FBI agent
about obtaining Venezuelan citizenship.
He told the undercover agent he should be addressed as “Luke,” and he
would set up an e-mail account solely to communicate with the
undercover agent, according to the indictment.
Mascheroni used the account to communicate with the agent and to
arrange for deliveries of materials at the post office box used as a
dead-drop location, authorities say.
In June 2009, Mascheroni received another list of questions, again
purportedly from Venezuelan officials, and $20,000 in cash from the
FBI agent as a first payment.
The following month, Mascheroni delivered a disk that contained a 39-
page document with answers to the questions. The document was
allegedly written by Mascheroni, edited by his wife, and contained
“restricted data” related to nuclear weapons.
Mascheroni allegedly wrote that the information he provided was
classified and was based on his knowledge of U.S. nuclear tests he had
learned while working at Los Alamos. But the government said
Mascheroni also wrote that he would state the document was based on
open information found on the Internet if “our relationship/alliance
does not work.”
He told the AP last year he thought the Venezuelan government wanted
him to produce a study on how to build a nuclear weapons program. In
return, he asked for $800,000, which he said he planned to use for his
scientific research on nuclear fusion in hopes of persuading Congress
to take a look at his theories.
He said he received a formal request via e-mail from his Venezuelan
contact in July 2008 to write the study. Mascheroni told AP he
finished the study in November 2008 and, following directions, placed
a CD containing only unclassified information available on the
Internet — which he already had provided to congressional staffers —
inside a post office box at the Albuquerque airport.
Later, he told AP, he received an e-mail telling him to return to the
same post office box where he found a note saying there was $20,000 in
$100 bills inside an envelope. He has said he never opened the
envelope, and that FBI agents opened it when they searched his home.
Associated Press Writer Pete Yost in Washington, D.C., and AP
correspondent Barry Massey in Santa Fe, N.M., contributed to this
report.
Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
…and I am Sid Harth
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http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/18/afghan-election-vote-buying-for-dummies/
Afghan Votes Come Cheap, and Often in Bulk
By ROD NORDLAND
Published: September 17, 2010
KABUL, Afghanistan — How much does it cost to buy an Afghan vote?
Paula Bronstein/Getty Images
Election workers carry voting material to remote mountainous villages
in Shotol, Afghanistan.
Notes from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and other areas of conflict in
the post-9/11 era. Go to the Blog »
Interactive Feature Some 30,000 American soldiers are taking part in
the Afghanistan surge. Here are the stories of the men and women of
First Battalion, 87th Infantry.
Nonetheless, prices are low. In northern Kunduz Province, Afghan votes
cost $15 each; in eastern Ghazni Province, a vote can be bought for
$18. In Kandahar, they sell their rights for as little as $1 a ballot.
More commonly, the price seems to hover in the $5 to $6 range, as
quoted to New York Times reporters in places like Helmand and Khost
Provinces.
Even by the standards of a country rated as one of the poorest in the
world, Afghans seem to be selling their votes cheap, and it is not so
surprising why.
Five dollars is a lot of money when more than half the population
lives on less than a dollar a day. Indeed, in many rural parts of the
country there is nothing in the way of a legitimate cash economy.
References are often heard to the Ten-Dollar-a-Day Taliban, occasional
laborers enlisted in cash-for-work projects like burying roadside
bombs.
Vote buying is much more common in this election than the last
national balloting here last year. The feeling, experts say, was that
last year’s election was stolen wholesale by supporters of President
Hamid Karzai, so there was little need for vote buying.
There may also have been less outright vote buying because it was most
likely that Mr. Karzai would have won even without election fraud, as
the incumbent and a member of the Pashtun ethnic group, the country’s
largest.
This time, many well-heeled Afghan independent candidates are looking
to buy their way into the lucrative sinecure of a seat in Parliament.
That not only comes with a healthy salary — about $2,200 a month gross
— but tremendous opportunities for graft.
And this time, a combination of voter apathy and disenchantment, far
greater insecurity and a fairly small number of votes needed to win
any individual seat have combined to, as an economist would put it,
create a market. In many places, as few as 2,500 votes are enough to
clinch the election.
And Osman Shenwari, 60, a malek, or village mayor, from the Spinghar
District of Nangarhar Province, says he knows one candidate in his
area who has already purchased 10,000 voter registration cards.
“The candidates send their representatives to every village and
district center to look for people who want to sell their voting
cards, and they pay 500 afghanis for each card,” he said. That’s about
$11 each.
In many places, so-called vote maleks organize the trade. These are
brokers who collect all the voter registration cards in a community,
and then peddle them to the highest bidder. Typically, the vote malek
keeps half of the money and the voters get half. “You should know that
our leaders are big-belly people,” said Mr. Shenwari, “and they care
about themselves more than anyone else.”
Of course, not every Afghan vote is for sale, and Mr. Shenwari is one
of those who disapprove of trafficking in votes. “I am telling you if
fraud takes place during the parliamentary elections this time, the
Taliban will definitely come back,” he said.
Hajji Fazal Rahman Jalal, 45, a tribal leader in the Andar District of
Ghazni, said: “I don’t think people in Ghazni Province will vote for
people who try to pay for their votes. The person who sells his vote
sells his own conscience.”
Such scruples did not seem to bother one candidate from Ghazni City
whom local elders accused of going door to door in villages offering
voters $5 apiece for their registration cards.
That would have been quite a bargain, because when an Afghan
translator who spoke Pashtun with a local accent called the candidate
and said he had 200 registration cards to sell on behalf of his
village, the candidate immediately offered him $15 each.
He wanted to know how many of the cards were for female voters; those
are more valuable because, out of respect for cultural sensitivities,
women’s registration cards do not bear photographs, so they are easy
for anyone to use. In many places, families do not allow women to
leave their homes, so the men of the family normally cast their votes
for them.
The translator asked for $25 each and the customary haggling ensued;
the candidate’s last price was $18 each, but only if the seller could
deliver the actual voters along with their registration cards to cast
ballots for him.
“O.K., come to my office and we will talk; I want to see the cards to
make sure the serial numbers are legitimate,” he said. “If the I.E.C.
sees any fake cards, they will invalidate my whole ballot box.” I.E.C.
stands for the Independent Election Commission.
There is also a market in fake voter registration cards, which are run
off in printers’ shops in Peshawar, across the border in Pakistan,
reportedly at 23 cents apiece.
Reports are that millions have flooded into the country, but the
election commission insists its officials will be able to spot the
fakes easily.
That makes the real cards much more valuable. Voters who are cynical
about the political process or intimidated by Taliban threats can sell
their cards without actually having to risk a trip to the polls.
The candidate’s campaign workers then use them on the “vote early and
often” Chicago model.
In theory, everyone who has voted has to have a finger marked with
indelible dye, but in practice that often does not happen — especially
in areas where the Taliban have threatened to amputate inky fingers,
which also happen to be areas that are too unsafe for election
monitors to go.
In Mr. Karzai’s presidential election, it was particularly in such
dangerous districts where huge numbers of votes were cast
fraudulently, which was easy to spot since the ballots cast sometimes
outnumbered the living. This time around the country is twice as
dangerous, but at least the vote crooks will have to pay for what they
steal.
Reporting was contributed by Afghan employees of The New York Times
from Kabul, Nangarhar, Khost, Kunduz, Helmand and Kandahar Provinces.
Five Thirty Eight
Nate Silver’s Political Calculus
September 17, 2010, 2:14 pm
Complex Formulas Governing the Afghan Elections
By RENARD SEXTON
On Saturday, Afghan voters will again head to the voting booth, this
time to elect members to the Afghan National Assembly, known as the
Wolesi Jirga. This election, the second in the history of the
legislative body, was initially scheduled for late May. It was
postponed, however, because of a lack of money, logistical challenges
and the continuing violence in the country.
While Afghanistan’s widespread security concerns, particularly in the
south and east, have dominated the election storyline – the
Independent Electoral Commission announced that at least 900 polling
stations will not open on Election Day, representing about 13.2
percent of the 6,835 total stations – the nation’s unique electoral
system will continue play an important role in the results of the
election.
In particular, the Afghan constitution requires that at least 68 of
the Wolesi Jirga’s members, about 27 percent, be women. And the
Independent Electoral Commission has decided that under the nation’s
Electoral Law, at least one member per province must be female.
Since Assembly members are allocated and elected by province, the
female quota is actually applied at the provincial, rather than
national level. There is also a nongeographic M.P. allocation of 10
for the Kuchi nomads, who are Pastun herders that migrate throughout
the year.
The percent of female legislators per province mandated by the
electoral commission therefore ranges from a low of 20 percent in five
lower middle-sized provinces to a high of 50 percent in the three
smallest Afghan provinces. The three largest provinces, Kabul, Hirat
and Nangerhar, are closer to the desired proportion, with 27 percent,
29 percent and 29 percent respectively.
Within an electoral constituency, Afghanistan uses a “single
nontransferable vote” system, an approach used by only a few other
nations – Japan and South Korea once used the system, while the upper
houses of Thailand and Indonesia continue to.
The single vote system gives each Afghan citizen one vote to use to
select one candidate from the often dozens, if not hundreds of
available candidates. For example, in Kabul, more than 650 people are
contending for the capital province’s 33 slots. Once all the votes
have been cast, the top 33 candidates will receive seats in
parliament. As a result, in places where there are a handful of
extremely well-known candidates and a large number of relatively
unknown competitors, the difference between winning a seat and losing
among the last few seats awarded may be just a few votes.
Here is where the female quota becomes particularly influential. In
the previous assembly election in 2005, in Herat Province, the
separation between Shahnaz Hemati (7,161 votes), and the next
finishing candidate, Sardar Ishaqzai, (6,829 votes) was just 332 votes
of the 474,541 valid votes cast – only .07 percentage points
separating the two. The Independent Electoral Commission mandate
requires that Herat elect five women among their 17 officials, meaning
that several male candidates on the cusp of victory were skipped over
to fill this quota. Indeed, between Ms. Hemati (who finished 14th) and
the next elected minister, Saadat Fatahi (4,514 votes, finishing
33rd), were 18 male candidates. The final two winning candidates were
elected with even lower vote totals, with Al-haj Rahima Jami receiving
4,105 vote (40th place) and Najla Dehqan Nizhad winning 3,580 votes
(47th place.)
The top finishing candidate in Herat in 2005, Fauzia Gailani, was
female, winning 16,885 votes, or 3.6 percent. Well covered by the
international media for her victory, she became known as a champion of
women’s rights in Afghanistan, particularly against child marriage,
something she experienced at the age of 13.
Unfortunately, Ms. Gailani has also become a symbol of the struggle
candidates face. In late August, five campaign workers for Ms.
Gailani’s re-election in Herat were kidnapped by an armed group; the
Taliban later claimed responsibility.
Renard Sexton can be contacted at sext...@gmail.com.
At War
Notes From the Front Lines
September 17, 2010, 1:36 pm
Afghan Elections: Kidnapping, Fraud, Warlords and Donkeys
By ROGENE FISHER JACQUETTE
The New York Times
Afghanistan is more dangerous than it has ever been during this war,
international groups say.Our colleagues Rod Nordland and Sharifullah
Sahak report on more election-related kidnappings ahead of Saturday’s
parliamentary elections. The Taliban claimed to have kidnapped 30
campaign workers, election officials and a candidate for Parliament.
Not all of the kidnappings have been confirmed by the government.
The Free and Fair Election Foundation, an Afghan monitoring
organization, said that 4 candidates and 20 of their supporters have
been killed so far during this summer’s campaign, and that there had
been 61 reports of election-related violence, most of it carried out
by insurgents. (The map at the top of this post illustrates the
worsening security situation in Afghan provinces.)
Alissa J. Rubin, The New York Times’s Kabul bureau chief, reports on
the security and fraud concerns ahead of Saturday’s vote. She writes
that local leaders in several large provinces said that Karzai and his
allies are looking to create a more “pliant” legislature by recruiting
specific candidates and backing their campaigns.
The Afpak Channel has an excellent roundup of perspectives on
Saturday’s vote that begins with an essay about the controlling
influence of Matiullah Khan in Oruzgan Province. Called Crais Sahib —
or “The Boss” — by many in Tirin Kot, the provincial capital, Mr.
Matiullah, Anand Gopal writes, will likely determine the winner of the
provincial parliamentary seat:
Whomever Matiullah decides to back for Saturday’s polls will almost
certainly win the seat, largely due to his power, prestige and ability
to spread dollars around. Some government insiders say that he is
backing Hajji Obaidullah. … This signals a larger trend in southern
Afghanistan, where a new class of power brokers has emerged since the
2005 polls. Abdul Razziq, the young Border Police commander from
Kandahar’s Spin Boldak, has extended his power and reach to the point
where he is second only to Ahmed Wali Karzai in Kandahar.
Also in the AfPak Channel roundup, Gerard Russell has a poignant post
about the mood among Afghans as Election Day approaches. He writes:
“Mayoos” is the word that my Afghan friends have used when I ask them
about the parliamentary elections: it means disappointed, or even
despairing. They do not need to read analysts’ reports to see that
Afghan democracy will not be enhanced on 18 September.
In today’s Christian Science Monitor, Anand Gopal points out that the
Taliban haven’t been responsible for all of the pre-election violence.
He writes that the campaign season has been compromised as much by
intercandidate violence and rivalries as it was by Taliban attacks and
intimidation.
In his report, Mr. Gopal quotes Hassan Haqiyar, an Afghan political
analyst and author, who said, “There are some candidates that have
ties to militias or warlords, who use guns to try to influence the
elections. … If you don’t have guns or money, it is hard to compete.”
Despite the reports of fraud, violence and intimidation, some Afghan
candidates and voters say they see a future in the country’s fledgling
democracy. In this video report, the BBC’s Lyse Doucet talks about a
new look and enthusiasm among young candidates and voters.
There is, however, one thing that remains as critical to Afghan
democracy as the stubborn optimism of young voters and competent
candidates: donkeys.
2 Readers’ Comments
1.brendancaron
vancouver, B.C.
September 17th, 2010 2:57 pm
Here’s hoping that the Afghans get themselves involved in this
election. Here’s hoping that the Parliament will help to strengthen
the peoples’ voice. Here’s hoping that the frauds that smeared the
last election don’t recur. Here’s hoping that the people of
Afghanistan take another baby step that will help them climb out of
the morass that they have lived with through these years of war and
internecine warfare.
Keep up the good fight for your rights.
All the best. God Bless.
2.The Cost of War Blog
New York, NY
September 17th, 2010 4:14 pm
more than anything, this election will test the international
community’s faith and patience in Afghanistan. if the vote is messy
again, one can only see the international community becoming
increasingly hopeless
http://costofwar.wordpress.com/
Recommended by 1
Thursday, June 3, 2010
Vote buying not peculiar To India: Dr. JP
Paying money for votes is not a phenomenon unique to India, said Lok
Satta Party President Dr. Jayaprakash Narayan and instanced how it was
widely prevalent in Britain of the 19th century.
Addressing a meeting of NRIs as part of ‘Rejuvenate India’ campaign
launched by People for Lok Satta at Dallas, Dr. JP referred to a
letter a British Member of Parliament wrote to his constituents 135
years ago. In that letter, preserved in the British archives to this
day, the MP said, “You know and I know that I bought your constituency
with 5000 pound sterling. You don’t know that I know that I will not
become your MP again because you have already sold your constituency
for 8000 pound sterling. You don’t know further that I bought another
constituency for 3000 pound sterling. In the process both of us have
gained. While you earned 3000 more pound sterling, I could save 2000
pound sterling.”
Pointing out that the problems India is facing are not unique, Dr. JP
said that all countries had faced similar problems but they overcame
because a sufficient number of thoughtful and committed people
understood them and strove indefatigably to address them. Pious dreams
do not bring about miracles. In Britain, Gladston who served as
Premier from 1868 to 1892, instead of lamenting over the state of
affairs, built institutions brick by brick and developed Britain into
a modern country.
Dr. JP said that the thinking, educated middle classes have to take
the lead to transform society since common people do not understand
the relationship between the vote in their hands and their own
welfare. They vote for the lesser evil after collecting money from
rival candidates while the middle classes exercise their franchise
swayed by primordial loyalties to religion and caste, region and
language. That was why the Lok Satta Party did not succeed although it
provided an ethical, alternative platform and fielded good candidates
in the 2009 general elections.
Dr. JP pointed out that as individuals we do not attach importance to
caste in basic issues. For instance, we send our children to schools
which have best teachers and not bother about their caste. Instead of
promoting such an ideal attitude in all matters basic to society,
political parties have been exploiting caste and religion, region and
language to serve their short-term interests.
On reservations in education and Government jobs for socially and
economically backward castes and sections, Dr. JP said the present
system served only a microscopic minority. The Government should
provided equal opportunities for growth to all by making available
quality education and skill enhancement.
In reply to a question, he underlined the need to build a system which
provided political opportunities to deprived sections, since no caste
has monopoly over intelligence and competence. He also suggested that
the first-past-the-post electoral system be replaced by proportional
representation to mitigate the ill effects of money power in elections
and to provide representation to all sections.
Lok Satta Party Tamilnadu President Mr.Vijay Anand also took part in
the meetings.
WORLD NEWS
APRIL 9, 2009.
Corruption Mars Image of Change in India Elections
New Class of Politicians Vows to Curb Graft, but Others Still Build
Support on Bribes; Rallies for Food, Liquor.Article Video Interactive
Graphics Comments (4) more in World ».EmailPrintSave This ↓ More.
By NIRAJ SHETH
NEW DELHI — A new class of Indian politicians wants to free its
country of rampant corruption, bribery and red tape. But as India
gears up for elections starting next week, the new entrants are facing
an early hurdle: fraud in the election process itself.
With 714 million registered voters, India is about to stage the
biggest democratic election in history, a monthlong affair that begins
April 16. Hundreds of political parties are competing, most with a
specific regional, ethnic or caste appeal.
Campaigning Against Corruption in India
2:13
Reform parties are trying to combat corruption among India’s
politicians. But in a country with a long history of political
bribery, these budding politicians are having trouble attracting
votes. WSJ’s Divya Gupta reports
Yet many candidates are flouting ethics and financing laws, spending
millions to bribe voters with cash and gifts, say people who have
followed the campaigns. The size of their war chests could dictate
results at the polls.
Corruption and criminality can be found across the spectrum. In the
current Parliament, 128 members representing 18 parties out of a total
of 545 legislators have criminal charges lodged against them. Of
those, 84 are for allegations of murder and 28 for theft and
extortion.
Lok Satta, a change-oriented party, is campaigning on promises to
fight corruption and institute a code of conduct for legislators. But
in the city of Hyderabad, party candidate Atluri Subhashini, isn’t
getting much attention.
Last week she met with families in the city’s Khairatabad slums,
trailed by no more than 50 supporters. Two blocks away, candidate
Daanam Nagendra, of the Indian National Congress party that runs the
national government, held a parade that drew more than 1,000 people.
View Interactive
Political Chronology
See a timeline of major Indian political events and parliament terms
in the past 20 years.
“We are finding it very hard to translate public support into
electoral victories,” says Lok Satta party president Jayaprakash
Narayan. “Without buying the vote or distributing liquor, your chances
are slim.”
In a survey by the Centre for Media Studies, one-fifth of voters
nationally said politicians or party workers offered them money to
vote in the past 10 years. In some states, nearly half said they have
been bribed. Out of the $2 billion the government and Indian parties
are expected to spend on this year’s elections, one-quarter will be
for illicit activities, the New Delhi think tank estimated.
The poor are often targets. Parties give cash bonuses or free lunches
to voters to boost rally attendance, observers say. After rallies,
party workers often distribute liquor as a reward for coming, say
people who have attended.
India’s change-minded parties are promising to fix such campaign
practices. Last month, the Professionals Party of India, boasting a
middle-class following, planned to run 100 candidates nationwide to
battle corruption. It’s now down to two. The party says protecting a
squeaky-clean reputation means it can’t spend as much as its
opponents, and so has had a hard time even finding candidates.
“It’s a humble start,” says party founder R.V. Krishnan. “But I don’t
think the PPI is attracting the kind of candidates we need.”
View Interactive
Power Players
See the Indian politicians who will define the outcome of the largest
electoral vote in history.
Leaders of established parties have spoken out against payouts.
“Neither do we encourage it nor do we approve it,” says Ravi Shankar
Prasad, a spokesman for the Bharatiya Janata Party — India’s second-
largest party after the Congress party. A Congress representative
didn’t return calls seeking comment.
In the coming election, the new politicians had hoped to rally India’s
educated middle class, which is tired of widespread corruption and
still stinging from the memory of last year’s Mumbai terrorist attacks
that they blame partly on political failure.
This year, 110 of India’s 545 constituencies are in cities, according
to the New Delhi-based Centre for the Study of Developing Societies.
That’s up from 74 urban districts in 2004 — a jump that shows the
increasing political heft of India’s middle class.
Still, much of the middle class isn’t registered to vote. Those who
are often view new entrants with suspicion.
Special Coverage: India Elections
See news, analysis and opinion from The Wall Street Journal on India’s
elections.
“I would not vote for them,” says Rajat Kumar, a 33-year-old in
Gurgaon, a Delhi suburb, who runs the India office of a European
outsourcing firm. “You can’t talk about removing corruption without
removing the causes that create corruption.”
Those causes include poor pay that make low-level bureaucrats depend
on bribes to make ends meet, he says, adding that he will evaluate
parties on their plans to lift India’s masses out of poverty.
Last week, Andhra Pradesh state police seized $600,000 in cash they
said was aimed at voters. In nearby Karnataka, the election commission
logged 500 cases where liquor, cash and goods aimed at voters were
seized, said the state’s chief election officer.
—Divya Gupta in Hyderabad contributed to this article.
Write to Niraj Sheth at niraj...@wsj.com
Discuss: There are 4 comments
524 days ago..MADHAVI BHASIN wrote:
I agree that popular support in India does not result in electoral
gains. There is another brand of candidates, intellectuals contesting
as independents, who have impressive credentials but there is little
hope that they can win any seats. Mira Sanyal, Country Head of ABN
Amro Bank, GR Gopinath, CMd of Deccan Express Logistics and Mallika
Sarabai being a few among them. These independent candidates perhaps
fall outside the ‘institutionalized corruption’ upheld by India’s
political parties.
519 days ago..Arun Karthikeyan wrote:
That individuals with criminal cases pending against them are allowed
to contest elections is a shame. It is hardly surprising that those
are the same people we expect to vote in a legislation barring such
candidates. How can the gridlock be broken?
Even more surprising is that a majority of the middle class is not
registered to vote. But systemic change is slow and one can hope that
the efforts of party’s like the PPI and independent candidates will be
the seeds of that very change.
507 days ago..MISSING_SN replied:
1. Criminal cases PENDING against someone does not make that person
criminal.
2. Independent candidates are running their campaigns to possibly win
a seat and form coalition
3. I agree that change is slow, but you have to take baby steps first
before you learn to run. correct?
505 days ago..KIRAN VOLETI wrote:
This is ridiculous. Meera Sanyal is not a great professional. ABN Amro
bank follows some of the most unethical business practices. She has no
moral right to talk about morality!
India government accused of vote buying
July 18, 2008
The governing party of India has been accused of wholesale vote buying
in order to stay in power during a battle for control of parliament.
An expected no-confidence motion has all India’s political parties
scrambling for allies, no matter the cost, The Times of London
reported Friday. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh recently met with
India’s richest man Mukesh Ambani while an MP reportedly said the
ruling government was offering to pay up to 250 million rupees ($6
million) for each vote, the report said.
The political crisis was initiated when the Congress Party negotiated
a nuclear deal with the United States that would allow importation of
American nuclear fuel and technology. In response, the Communist Party
left the coalition, leading many to expect a vote of no confidence and
possibly a general election next November.
Other parties have also allegedly been involved in vote buying
schemes.
“There are many like me who have been approached but no one has the
spirit to come out in the open and put before the public what is
happening in these dark corridors of power,” said Akshay Pratap Singh,
a Samajwadi Party MP, alleging that he had been offered money to vote
against the government.
Copyright 2008 by United Press International
UPI-1-20080718-14172100-bc-india-votebuying.xml
Bibliographic information
Title
Elections for sale: the causes and consequences of vote buying
Author Frederic Charles Schaffer
Editor Frederic Charles Schaffer
Publisher Ateneo de Manila University Press, 2007
ISBN 9715505252, 9789715505253
Length 234 pages
…and I am Sid Harth
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18/09/2010
« Afghan Election Masquerade
Afghan Election Masquerade
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/17/afghan-election-masquerade/
Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai
Afghanistan braces for violent polling day
By Tim Gaynor and Hamid Shalizi
KABUL | Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:29pm EDT
KABUL (Reuters) – Afghanistan braced for a day of violence Saturday as
voters headed to the polls for a parliamentary election that is a
crucial test of government credibility and the strength of its
security forces.
The Taliban has vowed to disrupt the poll and urged potential voters
to stay at home — even as the government called on Afghans to come out
to polling stations for what is their second chance to choose their
own parliament.
“We should try to do our best under the current circumstances. It is
very important that the Afghan people come out and vote,” Afghan
President Hamid Karzai, who was re-elected last year in a poll marred
by fraud accusations, told reporters.
It will not be clear for several weeks at least who among the almost
2,500 candidates have won the 249 seats on offer in the wolesi jirga,
or lower house of parliament. Preliminary results from Saturday’s
voting will not be known until October 8 at the earliest, with final
results not expected before October 30.
Election observers expect thousands of complaints from losing
candidates, with Afghanistan’s own poll watchdog expecting a
“disputatious” election, which could delay the process further.
Almost 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police are providing security for
the poll, backed up by some 150,000 foreign troops.
Kabul so far has been quiet since a heavy clampdown was imposed
Friday.
A wave of abductions spread across much of the rest of the country
Friday however, with 23 kidnappings of people working on the
elections, including two candidates.
STRATEGY REVIEW
Significant security failures would be a major setback, with
Washington watching closely before U.S. President Barack Obama
conducts a war strategy review in December likely to examine the pace
and scale of U.S. troop withdrawals.
Observers fear security worries could lead to a low voter turnout, as
it did last year when the Taliban staged dozens of attacks but failed
to disrupt the process entirely.
However, voter turnout was very low last year in the south and east
where Pashtuns, Afghanistan’s main ethnic group, dominate and where
the Taliban has its strongest support.
Corruption and fraud are also serious concerns after a deeply flawed
presidential ballot last year. A third of votes cast for Karzai were
thrown out as fake. Even though he is not standing, Saturday’s vote is
seen as a test of Karzai’s credibility.
Washington believes corruption weakens the central government and its
ability to build up institutions like the Afghan security forces,
which in turn determines when Western troops in Afghanistan will be
able to leave.
Voter turnout may also be hit by cynicism and disillusionment.
Billions of dollars in foreign aid cash have flowed into Afghanistan
over the past nine years but, for many people, have brought no real
improvement in their lives.
(Writing by Emma Graham-Harrison; Editing by Paul Tait)
Factbox: Key facts and figures about Afghanistan
KABUL | Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:35am EDT
KABUL (Reuters) – Afghans vote in parliamentary elections on Saturday
for 249 seats in the country’s wolesi jirga, or lower house of
parliament.
Following are key facts and figures about Afghanistan:
PROFILE
* Afghanistan is a landlocked country in Central Asia which shares
borders with Iran, Pakistan, China, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and
Turkmenistan.
* Hamid Karzai has led the country since 2001, when U.S.-backed Afghan
militia ended the five-year rule of the austere Islamist Taliban
movement. He was re-elected for a second term in October 2009 after a
highly contested vote which was mired in allegations of fraud.
* Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world. Its
population is almost 30 million. Life expectancy for both men and
women is about 45 years.
* Some 42 percent of Afghans are Pashtun and 27 percent are Tajik.
Hazaras and Uzbeks each account for 9 percent.
* There are two national languages, Pashto and Dari. Pashto, the
language of the Pashtuns, is spoken in many parts of the south and
east. Dari, a Persian language, is spoken mainly in the north and
center.
* Only 28 percent of Afghans are literate.
SECURITY AND VIOLENCE
* Violence has surged to the highest levels since U.S. and Afghan
forces ousted the Taliban in late 2001, as tens of thousands of
additional foreign troops, mainly Americans, have been deployed in
response to an escalating Taliban insurgency.
* So far this year, more than 500 foreign troops have been killed in
Afghanistan, compared with 521 in the whole of 2009, the deadliest
year of the war so far.
* Last month a United Nations report said the number of civilians
killed in the war rose by 31 percent in the first half of 2010, with
1,271 civilians killed in conflict-related incidents.
* The violence, which was previously concentrated in Taliban
strongholds in southern and eastern Afghanistan, has since spread to
the north and west of the country.
* A total of 2,072 foreign troops have been killed in Afghanistan
since the war started in November 2001.
* The United States has lost 1,278 service members, Britain 335 and
other NATO contributors 459, according to the iCasualties website
(www.iCasualties.org).
INTERNATIONAL FORCES
* There are nearly 150,000 foreign troops from 47 countries working
under the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF),
established in December 2001.
* The United States has by far the most troops, with about 100,000 of
the total, triple the number when U.S. President Barack Obama took
office last year.
* Other NATO allies have about 50,000 troops. Some are withdrawing,
including the Netherlands and Canada with about 3,200 troops.
* Britain, with 9,500 troops, is the second-largest ISAF contributor.
Germany is next with 4,590 and France with 3,750, according to the
most recent NATO figures.
* Obama will conduct a war strategy review in December. He plans to
begin a gradual withdrawal of U.S. troops from July 2011 if conditions
at the time allow.
ECONOMY
* According to the United Nations Human Development rankings for 2009,
Afghanistan is ranked 181st out of 182 countries.
* Devastated by 30 years of conflict, Afghanistan’s economy is
dependent on foreign aid. International donors contribute seventy
percent of the government’s operating budget, which itself has been
dwarfed by billions in aid spent directly by the donor states.
* Afghanistan’s economic growth has also been stunted by high levels
of corruption, which prevents aid from reaching ordinary Afghans.
* Public sector corruption in Afghanistan is seen as more rampant than
any other country except Somalia, according to Transparency
International.
DRUGS
* Afghanistan produces 92 percent of the world’s opium, a thick paste
from poppy used to make heroin, according to the latest U.N. Office on
Drugs and Crime report.
* Helmand province in southern Afghanistan produces most of
Afghanistan’s opium poppy crop.
* About two thirds of the opium is turned into heroin before it leaves
Afghanistan and goes on to feed some 15 million addicts, mainly in
Russia, Iran and Europe.
* Opium cultivation in Afghanistan is directly linked to the Taliban
insurgency. Since 2005, the Taliban have made up to $160 million a
year from taxing cultivation and trade of the crop.
Sources: NATO, U.S. Forces, Reuters reports, U.N., World Bank,
iCasualties.org; CIA World Fact Book, Transparency International.
(Compiled by Golnar Motevalli and Tim Gaynor; Editing by Paul Tait)
Next Afghan vote “not perfect” but better: U.N. envoy
1 / 2 Afghan workers load ballot boxes onto a truck to send to the
small towns and villages of Herat province in Enjil village, south
Herat, western Afghanistan September 14, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Raheb Homavandi
KABUL | Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:29pm EDT
KABUL (Reuters) – Afghanistan’s forthcoming election will not be
perfect but will be better than a fraud-marred presidential vote last
year, the top United Nations diplomat in the country said Tuesday.
Saturday’s parliamentary election is seen as a test of stability in
Afghanistan, where violence is at its worst since the Taliban were
ousted in 2001, before President Barack Obama conducts a war strategy
review in December.
The Taliban have vowed to disrupt the voting, and poor security and
fraud have been major concerns in the run-up.
Tuesday, electoral officials and observers said thousands of fake
voter registration cards had been found across Afghanistan and they
urged the government to act to prevent widespread fraud.
President Hamid Karzai won the election last year despite having a
third of the votes cast for him thrown out as fake.
“These elections, we can say already in advance, are not going to be
perfect,” U.N. envoy Staffan de Mistura told a news conference in
Kabul. “But based on … the preparations by Afghan authorities, we are
feeling that they are going to be much better than the previous ones.”
Afghans face a field of almost 2,500 candidates from which to choose
249 members of the country’s wolesi jirga, or lower house of
parliament. The vote will coincide with surging violence. Military and
civilian casualties are at record levels.
Four candidates have been killed, according to the United Nations and
government officials, and the Taliban have urged Afghans to shun the
voting.
“Security is the biggest concern before these elections … Let us
remember we are not in Switzerland, we are in Afghanistan at the most
critical period of the conflict,” de Mistura said.
“The biggest test will be the courage and determination of the Afghan
people on the 18th of September, to show … in spite of the security
situation …. their willingness to participate (in) the future of their
own country,” he said.
Karzai’s office said Monday that Afghan security forces, backed by
almost 150,000 foreign troops, are “completely prepared” to secure the
election.
(Writing by Tim Gaynor; Editing by Paul Tait and Mark Heinrich)
Analysis: Why can’t Afghanistan tackle corruption?
Afghan President Hamid Karzai speaks during a meeting with Senator
John Kerry at the Presidential Palace in Kabul August 20, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Yuri Cortez/Pool
By Sayed Salahuddin
KABUL | Wed Sep 8, 2010 6:13am EDT
KABUL (Reuters) – Afghan President Hamid Karzai might talk tough about
dealing with endemic corruption that has weakened his country for so
long, but tangible results have been hard to find.
Words, unlike votes, are cheap in Afghanistan, it seems.
In the past three months alone there have been accusations of
interference in the work of Afghanistan’s major crime taskforce and
corruption watchdog, senior officials on the payroll of the U.S.
Central Intelligence Agency and graft on a huge scale at the country’s
top private bank.
“It is a government similar to a corporation, where people are after
making themselves rich,” said Waheed Mozhdah, a veteran Afghan
political analyst.
Corruption costs Afghans $2.5 billion a year, the United Nations has
estimated, with European lawmakers also saying graft stops billions of
aid dollars from reaching ordinary Afghans.
Mozhdah told Reuters a big part of the problem is that Karzai,
consummate politician that he is, has no real power base.
That means the man who won last year’s presidential vote must tread
carefully for fear of alienating the political, ethnic and even tribal
powerbrokers whose loyalty keeps him in office, effectively painting
himself into a corner.
One of the biggest concerns from last year’s presidential vote — won
by Karzai despite having a third of his votes thrown out as fake — is
the number of electoral promises he was forced to make to keep some of
his more colorful backers happy.
Rights groups, for example, have criticized Karzai’s decision to
appoint former militia chief General Abdul Rashid Dostum as his chief
of staff. Dostum, an ethnic Uzbek and former communist general, helped
swing last year’s election Karzai’s way, returning from exile days
before the vote to rally support.
Dostum has denied accusations of human rights abuses, which include
questions over how 2,000 Taliban fighters suffocated to death in cargo
containers after they surrendered to him.
ONLY SOMALIA IS MORE CORRUPT
Observers and analysts like Mozhdah fear the same pattern has emerged
this year. Even though he is not running in this month’s parliamentary
elections, Karzai must keep as many people as possible happy, or risk
facing a hostile legislature that could block policies and cabinet
appointments.
It is little wonder that Afghanistan ranked 179th out of 180 on
Transparency International’s 2009 list of the world’s most corrupt
countries, ahead of only Somalia. Corruption and cronyism are among
the most common complaints of ordinary Afghans.
Washington fears widespread graft is boosting the Taliban-led
insurgency and complicating efforts to strengthen central government
control so U.S. and other foreign troops can begin withdrawing from
July 2011.
Karzai promised that fighting graft would be his top priority when he
was sworn in for a second five-year term, echoing demands from U.S.
counterpart Barack Obama, but frustration is growing 10 months after
Karzai took his oath.
It didn’t help when Karzai was seen to intervene and order the release
of Mohammed Zia Salehi, a senior National Security Council official
arrested in July as part of a corruption investigation. U.S. media
later reported Salehi was on the CIA’s payroll, which Karzai denies.
ALL IN THE FAMILY
Another big problem for the president is his family, typified by the
crisis at the Kabulbank, Afghanistan’s largest private financial
institution. The crisis was sparked by unproven media allegations that
the bank’s top two directors had been forced to resign and the
chairman ordered to hand over $160 million worth of luxury villas
bought with bank funds in Dubai.
The central bank has denied it has taken over Kabulbank and assured
depositors their money is safe, but the crisis turned violent on
Wednesday when angry customers were beaten by security forces as they
scrambled to withdraw savings.
Karzai’s family is at the center of the scandal. His brother, Mahmoud
Karzai, is a major shareholder at the bank. Mohammad Haseen, the
brother of First Vice President Mohammad Qasim Fahim, is among major
shareholders who have had assets frozen.
Some Afghans blame Karzai for the bank’s troubles.
“If you can run the government properly, do so. If not, just resign,
go away,” one angry customer named Rahim said outside a Kabulbank
branch.
And then there is Karzai’s half brother, Ahmad Wali Karzai, a leader
in Kandahar province, the birthplace of the Taliban and one of the
centers of Afghanistan’s illegal opium trade. He has been accused of
amassing a fortune from drugs, intimidating rivals and of having links
with the CIA, charges he denies.
Karzai says he is trying to tackle corruption, that most of the graft
is in big contracts awarded by foreign firms and that the issue has
been blown out of proportion by the Western media.
Mohammad Yasin Usmani, chief of his graft watchdog, says 400 members
of the judiciary have been purged under new reforms.
“One only has to pay a visit to the prisons to find out what has
happened with regard to the campaign,” Usmani said.
Karzai alone can’t be blamed for allowing corruption. Commanders in
the NATO-led force of almost 150,000 troops admit they have also made
mistakes.
“I think inadvertently we have sometimes been photographed shaking
hands in places with people who the local community probably don’t
have as much respect for,” said Lieutenant General Nick Parker, deputy
commander of the NATO-led force.
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, History, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews,
Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
17/09/2010
« VHP Hindu Hoodlums Roast
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/18/autumn-leaves-summer-haystacks/
The Autumn Series of posts are dedicated to Dr Madhvi, my only
admirer. We belong to the mutual admiration club. Guess what? Dr
Madhvi doesn’t believe in god. I am so sad. All those 3.3 million
Hindu gods, one Christian god, one Muslim god, one devil-anti god,
several and sundry witch doctors, voodoo doctors, spin doctors,
umbrella doctors and one Dr Jai Maharaj, direct descendant of the
Hindu devil, and Dr Madhvi and I do not believe in any of those
excellent gods.
May Allah be Praised.
When we have Venter, who created the first living organism in a petri
dish. When we have such scientists as our darling Cambridge don
honorable Stephen Hawking declaring that “There is no god.” Who needs
a god, the God, God of all Gods, son of God, ten avatars of Vishnu,
one face god, three faced god, four faced god, no face god, god of no
gods?
Life goes on.
Art Institute of Chicago
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Art Institute of Chicago
Established 1879; in present location since 1893
Location 111 South Michigan Avenue
Chicago, USA
Visitor figures 1,846,889 (2009)[1]
•Ranked 3rd nationally
•Ranked 17th globally
Director James Cuno
Website www.artic.edu/aic
This article is about the art museum. For the art school associated
with the museum, see School of the Art Institute of Chicago.
The Art Institute of Chicago (AIC) is an encyclopedic fine art
museum[2] located in Chicago, Illinois’s Grant Park. The Art Institute
has one of the world’s most notable collections of Impressionist and
Post-Impressionist art in its permanent collection. Its diverse
holdings also include significant Old Master works, American art,
European and American decorative arts, Asian art and modern and
contemporary art. It is located at 111 South Michigan Avenue in the
Chicago Landmark Historic Michigan Boulevard District. The museum is
associated with the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and is
overseen by Director and President James Cuno. At one million square
feet, it is the second largest art museum in the United States behind
only the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.[3]
History
The Art Institute of Chicago
In 1866, a group of 35 artists founded the Chicago Academy of Design
in a studio on Dearborn Street, with the intent to run a free school
with its own art gallery. The organization was modeled after European
art academies, such as the Royal Academy, with Academians and
Associate Academians. The Academy’s charter was granted in March 1867.
Classes started in 1868, meeting every day at a cost of $10 per month.
The Academy’s success enabled it to build a new home for the school, a
five story stone building on 66 West Adams Street, which opened on
November 22, 1870.
When the Great Chicago Fire destroyed the building in 1871 the Academy
was thrown into debt. Attempts to continue despite of the loss, using
rented facilities, failed. By 1878, the Academy was $10,000 in debt.
Members tried to rescue the ailing institution by making deals with
local businessmen, before some finally abandoned it in 1879 to found a
new organization, named the Chicago Academy of Fine Arts. When the
Chicago Academy of Design went bankrupt the same year, the new Chicago
Academy of Fine Arts bought its assets at auction.
In 1882, the Chicago Academy of Fine Arts changed its name to the
current Art Institute of Chicago The same year, they purchased a lot
on the corner of Michigan Avenue and Van Buren Avenue for $45,000. The
property’s building was leased, and a new building was constructed
behind it to house the school’s facilities.
With the announcement of the World’s Columbian Exposition to be held
in 1892–93, the Art Institute pressed for a building on the lakefront
to be constructed for the fair, but to be used by the Institute
afterwards. The city agreed, and the building was completed in time
for the second year of the fair. Construction costs were paid by
selling the Michigan/Van Buren property. On October 31, 1893, the
Institute moved into the new building. From the 1900s to the 1960s the
school offered with the Logan Family (members of the board) the Logan
Medal of the arts, an award which became one of the most distinguished
awards presented to artists in the US.
Between 1959 and 1970, the Institute was a key site in the battle to
gain art & documentary photography a place in galleries, under curator
Hugh Edwards and his assistants.
As Director of the museum starting in the early 1980s, James N. Wood
conducted a major expansion of its collection and oversaw a major
renovation and expansion project for its facilities. As “one of the
most respected museum leaders in the country”, as described by The New
York Times, Wood created major exhibitions of works by Paul Gauguin,
Claude Monet and Vincent Van Gogh that set records for attendance at
the museum. He retired from the museum in 2004.[4]
In 2006, the Art Institute began construction of “The Modern Wing”, an
addition situated on the southwest corner of Columbus and Monroe. The
project, designed by Pritzker Prize winning architect Renzo Piano, was
completed and officially opened to the public on May 16, 2009. The
264,000-square-foot (24,500 m2) building makes the Art Institute the
second largest art museum in the United States. The building houses
the museum’s world-renowned collections of 20th- and 21st-century art,
specifically modern European painting and sculpture, contemporary art,
architecture and design, and photography.
The Museum’s Collection
Mary Cassatt, The Child’s Bath (The Bath). 1893, oil on canvas
Georges-Pierre Seurat, Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande
Jatte 1884–1886
Edward Hopper, Nighthawks, 1942
Grant Wood, American Gothic (1930)
The collection of the Art Institute of Chicago encompasses more than
5,000 years of human expression from cultures around the world and
contains more than 260,000 works of art. The art institute holds works
of art ranging from as early as the Japanese prints to the most
updated American art.
Today, the museum is most famous for its collections of Impressionist,
Post-Impressionist, and American paintings. Included in the
Impressionist and Post-Impressionist collection are more than 30
paintings by Claude Monet including six of his Haystacks and a number
of Water Lilies. Also in the collection are important works by Pierre-
Auguste Renoir such as Two Sisters (On the Terrace) and Henri
Matisse’s The Bathers, Paul Cézanne’s The Basket of Apples, and Madame
Cézanne in a Yellow Chair. At the Moulin Rouge by Henri de Toulouse-
Lautrec is another highlight, as are Georges Seurat’s Sunday Afternoon
on the Island of La Grande Jatte and Gustave Caillebotte’s Paris
Street; Rainy Day. Non-French paintings of the Impressionist and Post-
Impressionist collection include Vincent Van Gogh’s Bedroom in Arles
and Self-portrait, 1887. Among the most important works of the
American collection are Grant Wood’s American Gothic, Edward Hopper’s
Nighthawks and Mary Cassatt’s The Child’s Bath.
In addition to paintings, the Art Institute offers a number of other
works. Located on the lower level are the Thorne Miniature Rooms which
1:12 scale interiors showcasing American, European and Asian
architectural and furniture styles from the Middle Ages to the 1930s
(when the rooms were constructed).[5] Another special feature of the
museum is the Touch Gallery which is specially designed for the
visually impaired. It features several works which museum guests are
encouraged to experience though the sense of touch instead of through
sight as well as specially designed description plates written in
braille.[6] The American Decorative Arts galleries contain furniture
pieces designed by Frank Lloyd Wright and Charles and Ray Eames. The
Ancient Egyptian, Greek, and Roman galleries hold the mummy and mummy
case of Paankhenamun, as well as several gold and silver coins.
The Terra Collection
Since April 2005, approximately fifty paintings originally from the
Terra Museum (now the Terra Foundation) collection have been on loan
to the Department of American Art at the Art Institute of Chicago. The
collections of the Terra and the Art Institute are located in a new
suite of galleries, and together provide one of the nation’s most
comprehensive presentations of American art. The foundation’s
collection of American works on paper are housed in the Department of
Prints and Drawings at the Art Institute.
African American Art Collection
Institutions like the Art Institute of Chicago have assisted in
creating a place for African American art to be explored freely
without the restraints that once accompanied it. The pieces included
in the Art Institute of Chicago’s African American art collection
provide a historical illustration of the progress made by African
Americans as well as their continuing struggle.
Specific pieces in this section of the museum give insight into the
racial boundaries that existed in the past. Samuel J. Miller’s
Frederick Douglass daguerreotype is an example of the way some African
Americans managed to break away from stereotypes. The daguerreotype
had been used by people like Louis Agassiz to show a “type” for ethnic
groups. The style of J.T. Zealy’s daguerreotype photographs made the
subject seem vulnerable, even animalistic. For example,
“Delia,” (1850) shows a female slave completely exposed and in a sense
victimized by the camera. Conversely, the Douglass daguerreotype shows
a well-dressed man with a strong expression. This is the complete
opposite from the submissiveness of the slaves in the Zealy photos.
Douglass represented a new kind of Negro. He was educated and well-
respected. This marks a shift in the idea of blackness and the way it
is represented.
An artist that took it upon himself to continue to change the way
blacks were in portrayed in art is Archibald J. Motley, Jr. He aimed
to paint “his people” just as they were. Motley said he “wanted to
instill a sense of racial pride into his work.[7] Motley attended the
School of the Art Institute of Chicago and had to deal with occasional
harassment from white classmates. Yet, he continued to believe that
art was the best way to approach racial tensions.[8]
In his piece “The Octoroon Girl,” (1925) Motley challenges the
conventional image of an African American. While the woman in the
painting fits the mold of “whiteness,” she actually is 1/8 black.
Breaking away from the traditional views of blacks was indicative of
the time period. References such as octoroon or mulatto were used to
describe how much “black blood” a person possessed. Motley takes this
concept from a negative connotation to one that is independent of
social status.
Another piece included in the Art Institute of Chicago’s African
American art collection is “The Boxer” by Richmond Barthe. Barthe is a
significant figure among African American artists because his work was
widely exhibited and recognized by reputable organizations. His
sculptures depicted African Americans but were sought after pieces in
the mainstream art world. In 1942, “The Boxer” coincided with a time
period where black boxers like Joe Louis were fighting white opponents
and actually beating them. This signified a big step for African
Americans and equality, at least in the ring.
The changing idea of blackness and African American art was also
advanced by artists like Jacob Lawrence. Most of his work focused on
African American history and utilized techniques like repetition to
emphasize his message. In “Graduation,” 1948, Lawrence addresses the
importance of getting a diploma and how the event can affect a
family’s morale. This piece went along with Langston Hughe’s poem by
the same title.[9] The contrast of black and white in the painting can
indicate the fact that such an event is significant to both African
and white Americans. An emphasis on education has been central to
African American advancement. Frederick Douglas was a major supporter
of the idea that education was the path to social equality.
“Graduation” manages to depict blacks as academically oriented, a
positive image of African Americans.
The use of art as political motivators has been a key factor in
African American art. The Art Institute’s collection also touches on
the social implications of African American art. Black artists are a
result of the fight their ancestors faced and the current boundaries
that are still left to cross.[10] This powerful medium has evoked
discussion about racial tensions and brought attentions that would
have otherwise gone under the radar. Such approaches coincided with
the emergence of political groups such as the NAACP and Africobra, for
artists. African American artists utilized their work to address
social and political issues of black people.[11] The combination of
forces led to a more prevalent public conversation about racial
equality. As African American artists banded together for projects
such as the Wall of Respect, their concerns came to the forefront.
Their paintbrushes had power.
In essence, the Art Institute of Chicago provides an accurate
historical narrative of the lives of African Americans. Comparing
daguerreotype images to the more recent pieces show a world of
difference. Not only has the perception of African Americans changed,
but also African American artists have established a separate school
of art. The shift from being defined by African influence, to simply
learning from the African link, has helped these artists break the
mold they were previously forced to fit.
The Art Institute Building
Art Institute of Chicago Building North Lion
Main article: Art Institute of Chicago Building
The current building at 111 South Michigan Avenue is third address for
the Art Institute. It was designed in the Beaux-Arts style by Shepley,
Rutan and Coolidge of Boston, Massachusetts[12] for the 1893 World’s
Columbian Exposition as the World’s Congress Auxiliary Building with
the intent that the Art Institute occupy the space after the fair
closed.
The Art Institute’s famous western entrance on Michigan Avenue is
guarded by two bronze lion statues created by Edward L. Kemeys. The
sculptor gave them unofficial names: the south lion is “stands in an
attitude of defiance,” and the north lion is “on the prowl.” When a
Chicago sports team plays in the championships of their respective
league (i.e. the Super Bowl or Stanley Cup Finals, not the entire
playoffs), the lions are frequently dressed in that team’s uniform.
Evergreen wreaths are placed around their necks during the Christmas
season.
The east entrance of the museum is marked by the stone arch entrance
to the old Chicago Stock Exchange. Designed by Louis Sullivan in 1894,
the Exchange was torn down in 1972, but salvaged portions of the
original trading room were brought to the Art Institute and
reconstructed.
The Art Institute building has the unusual property of straddling open-
air railroad tracks. Two stories of gallery space connect the east and
west buildings while the Metra Electric and South Shore lines operate
below. The lower level of gallery space was formerly the windowless
Gunsaulus hall, but is now home to the Alsdorf Galleries showcasing
Indian, Southeast Asian and Himalayan Art. During renovation, windows
facing north toward Millennium Park were added. The gallery space was
designed by Renzo Piano in conjunction with his design of the Modern
Wing and features the same window screening used there to protect the
art from direct sunlight. The upper level formerly held the modern
European galleries, but was renovated in 2008 and now features the
Impressionist and Post-Impressionist galleries.
Libraries
“Burnham Library” – Founded 1912
Located on the ground floor of the museum is the Ryerson & Burnham
Libraries. The Libraries’ collections cover all periods of art, but is
most known for its extensive collection of 18th-20th century
architecture. It serves the museum staff, college and university
students, and is also open to the general public. The Friends of the
Libraries, a support group for the Libraries, offers events and
special tours for its members.
Coordinates: 41°52′46″N 87°37′26″W / 41.87944°N 87.62389°W /
41.87944; -87.62389
Modern Wing
Art Institute of Chicago Modern Wing
On May 16, 2009, the Art Institute opened the Modern Wing, the largest
expansion in the museum’s history.[13] The 264,000-square-foot (24,500
m2) addition, designed by Renzo Piano, makes the Art Institute the
second-largest museum in the US.[3] The Modern Wing is home to the
museum’s collection of early 20th-century European art, including
Pablo Picasso’s The Old Guitarist, Henri Matisse’s Bathers by a River,
and René Magritte’s Time Transfixed. It also houses contemporary art
from after 1960; new photography, video media, architecture and design
galleries including original renderings by Frank Lloyd Wright, Ludwig
Mies van der Rohe and Bruce Goff; temporary exhibition space; shops
and classrooms; a cafe and a restaurant, Terzo Piano, that overlooks
Millennium Park from its terrace.[14] In addition, the Nichols
Bridgeway connects a sculpture garden on the roof of the new wing with
the adjacent Millennium Park to the north and a courtyard designed by
Gustafson Guthrie Nichol. In 2009, the Modern Wing won a Chicago
Innovation Awards.[15]
Notable selections from the collection
El Greco, Saint Martin and the Beggar, c. 1597-1600
Antoine Watteau, Fête champêtre (Pastoral Gathering), 1718-1721
Édouard Manet, Jesus Mocked by the Soldiers, 1864-1865
Édouard Manet, Seascape Calm Weather, 1864-1865
Gustave Caillebotte, Paris Street; Rainy Day, 1876-1877
Pierre-Auguste Renoir, By the Water, 1880
Pierre-Auguste Renoir, On the Terrace, 1881
Paul Cézanne, The Bay of Marseilles, view from L’Estaque,1885
Vincent Van Gogh, Self-portrait, 1887
Vincent Van Gogh, Bedroom in Arles, 1888
Claude Monet, Wheatstacks (End of Summer), 1890-1891
Paul Cézanne, The Basket of Apples, c.1890s
Paul Gauguin, Why are you angry? (No te aha oe Riri), 1896
Edgar Degas, Woman at Her Toilette, c. 1900-1905
Claude Monet, Water Lilies, 1906
Juan Gris, Portrait of Picasso, 1912
See also
Chicago portal
•Visual arts of Chicago
•School of the Art Institute of Chicago
External links
Wikimedia Commons has media related to: Art Institute of Chicago
•The Art Institute of Chicago
•The Art Institute of Chicago: collections
•The Art Institute of Chicago: Inside-Out Antique & Collectable
Postcard Exhibit – at The Chicago Postcard Museum
•The Ryerson and Burnham Libraries
•The Terra Foundation For American Art
•A Visitor’s Experience: The Art Institute of Chicago
References
1.^ “Exhibition and museum attendance figures 2009″. London: The Art
Newspaper. April 2010. http://www.theartnewspaper.com/attfig/attfig09.pdf.
Retrieved 20 May 2010.
2.^ http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/79.html
3.^ a b The New York Times
4.^ Kennedy, Randy. “James N. Wood, President of the Getty Trust, Dies
at 69″, The New York Times, June 14, 2010. Accessed June 21, 2010.
5.^ http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/thorne
6.^ http://www.artic.edu/aic/exhibitions/touch.html
7.^ Rossen, Susan F., ed. Selections from The Art Institute of
Chicago: African Americans in Art. Chicago: The Art Institute of
Chicago, 1999.
8.^ Rossen, Susan F., ed. Selections from The Art Institute of
Chicago: African Americans in Art. Chicago: The Art Institute of
Chicago, 1999. page 27
9.^ Rossen, Susan F., ed. Selections from The Art Institute of
Chicago: African Americans in Art. Chicago: The Art Institute of
Chicago, 1999. 66.
10.^ Parker, Daniel Texidor. African Art: The Diaspora and Beyond.
Chicago: Daniel Texidor Parker, 2004. pg. 61.
11.^ The Art of Culture: Evolution of Visual Arts by African American
Artists, the Last Fifty Years. Chicago, IL: Africa International House
USA, 2003. pg. 18.
12.^ “1879-1913: The Formative Years”. The Art Institute of Chicago.
2007. http://www.artic.edu/aic/aboutus/wip/formative/index.html.
Retrieved 2007-06-20.
13.^ The New York Times
14.^ “A New Kind of Institutional Dining”. Zagat.com. May 27, 2009.
http://www.zagat.com/Blog/Detail.aspx?SCID=42&BLGID=20948.
15.^ “2009 Chicago Innovation Award winners”. Chicago Innovation
Awards. http://www.chicagoinnovationawards.com/past-winners/2009.
v • d • e
City of Chicago
Architecture · Beaches · Climate · Colleges and Universities ·
Community areas · Culture · Demographics · Economy · Flag · Geography
· Government · History · Landmarks · Media · Music · Neighborhoods ·
Parks · Portal · Public schools · Skyscrapers · Sports · Theatre ·
Transportation
Chicago metropolitan area – State of Illinois – United States of
America
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.orghttp://wikipedia.org/wiki/
Art_Institute_of_Chicago“
Categories: Museums in Chicago, Illinois | Museums accredited by the
American Association of Museums | 1893 architecture | Art Institute of
Chicago | Art museums in Illinois | Visitor attractions in Chicago
•This page was last modified on 11 September 2010 at 18:57.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
Inc., a non-profit organization.
…and I am Sid Harth
Autumn Leaves (painting)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Autumn Leaves
Artist John Everett Millais
Year 1856
Type Oil on canvas
Location Manchester City Art Gallery, Manchester
Autumn Leaves (1856) is a painting by John Everett Millais exhibited
at the Royal Academy in 1856. It was described by the critic John
Ruskin as “the first instance of a perfectly painted twilight.”
Millais’s wife Effie wrote that he had intended to create a picture
that was “full of beauty and without a subject”.
The picture depicts four girls in the twilight collecting and raking
together fallen leaves in a garden. They are making a bonfire, but the
fire itself is invisible, only smoke emerging from between the leaves.
The two girls on the left are portrayed in middle class clothing of
the era; the two on the right are in rougher, working class clothing.
The painting has been seen as one of the earliest influences on the
development of the aesthetic movement. [1]
Interpretations
The painting has typically been interpreted as a representation of the
transience of youth and beauty, a common theme in Millais’s art.
Malcolm Warner argues that Millais was influenced by the poetry of
Tennyson, at whose house he had once helped to rake together autumn
leaves. Warner suggests that lines from Tennyson’s song “Tears, Idle
Tears” in The Princess (1847) may have influenced him:
Tears, idle tears, I know not what they mean.
Tears from the depth of some divine despair
Rise in the heart, and gather to the eyes,
In looking on the happy Autumn-fields,
And thinking on the days that are no more.[2]
The apple held by the youngest girl at the right may allude to the
loss of childhood innocence implied by reference to original sin and
the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.[3]
After a positive review from F.G. Stephens, Millais wrote to him that
he had “intended the picture to awaken by its solemnity the deepest
religious reflection. I chose the subject of burning leaves as most
calculated to produce this feeling.”[4]
Notes
1.^ Whistler’s ‘The White Girl’: Painting, Poetry and Meaning, Robin
Spencer, The Burlington Magazine, Vol. 140, No. 1142 (May, 1998), pp.
300-311
2.^ Victorian Web: Nostalgic Intensity in Millais’s Autumn Leaves
3.^ Mortality, Purity, and Religious Contemplation in Autumn Leaves
4.^ National Gallery of Art, Washington, The Victorians: British
Painting 1837-1901, p.73, 1997
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn_Leaves_(painting)“
This page was last modified on 31 December 2009 at 14:05.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
Inc., a non-profit organization.
…and I am Sid Harth
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Delhi driver drugs, rapes, films employer’s children
HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, September 18, 2010
First Published: 01:34 IST(18/9/2010)
Last Updated: 10:06 IST(18/9/2010)
102 Comments
Three siblings — a 12-year-old girl and her 10- and seven-year-old
brothers — were drugged, raped and forced to indulge in incest
repeatedly by the man entrusted by their widowed mother to keep them
safe — their school cab driver. Lalit Ratawal (38) and five of his
associates had been raping
related stories
Class IX student’s home was crime den and sodomizing the children for
18 months in central Delhi’s Prasad Nagar. They also filmed the act
and threatened the children into silence. Four of the associates are
teens, including a Class 9 student of the same school the siblings
attended.
The mother, who keeps tenants to make a living, made the discovery 25
days ago when she noticed injection marks on her daughter’s arms.
“There were round, black marks. When I asked her where they came from,
she told me everything. She said she was afraid the driver would hurt
me,” she said.
When the mother confronted Ratawal, he threatened to kill her. On
Thursday, she told one of her tenants, who told a neighbour, and the
neighbour in turn informed the police. The police took more than 24
hours to register a case.
“The family’s tenant approached me last evening. I rushed to Prasad
Nagar Police Station and met the SHO but was told the case would be
registered only after I brought the children there next morning,” the
neighbour said on Friday.
According to the police, Ratawal would pick the children up from their
house and take them to the house of the Class 9 student, whose parents
are both teachers and hence, seldom home at that time of the day. His
associates would be waiting for him there. On occasion, Ratawal would
take the children — studying in classes VII, V and III — to his home
when his own two children and wife were away.
“They’d inject the siblings with sedatives or force them to swallow
pills. They would then push them to have sex with each other before
raping them. Sometimes, the children were also forced to snort smack,”
an investigating officer said.
The police said Ratawal was so organised, he would not abuse all three
children on the same day. He spaced out the heinous acts so their
mother and teachers would not be alerted by prolonged absences from
school.
“Ratawal has been arrested on charges of raping the girl child and
further investigation is underway,” said Jaspal Singh, DCP (central).
Showing 1-5 of 102 comments
dsil 20 minutes ago
I hope the media won’t haunt the kids and mother. For heaven sake
leave them alone they are already traumatized and does not need
further trauma from media
kumar 21 minutes ago
I am crying for those innocent children. I am so angry and just want
to kill the driver just now!
Ranjit 24 minutes ago
severest punishment needed. press should protect childrens identity.
Agha Ata 30 minutes ago
When a mentally sick person also has criminal tendencies, this is the
result. He must be locked up and treated..
Delhites 33 minutes ago
If this man gets out of the police custody with a smile on his face,
then I think Delhi police and judicial system of India should leave
their posts or kill themselves because they don’t deserve to be seated
on such positions.
Nivedita Barotra 7 hours ago
this guy should be given slow painful death cinsidering what he has
done to the children’s psyche…. what the kids must be going through,
their whole life would be messed up…. kill this SOB
7 people liked this.
Hindustni 6 hours ago in reply to Nivedita Barotra
Court should order the punishment without any long trial to cut body
parts of these animals day by day and do not provide any medication.
TV channel show them 24/7 till their death. This is the only way to
stop these acts
2 people liked this.
Insaan 8 hours ago
fuch him by horses and dogs and stone to death on the raod, so that
every body should teach the lesson
Flag 6 people liked this. Like ReplyReply
Ds 9 hours ago
No judgment is required. Simply lynch that driver and cane those
scoundrels like dogs and skin them alive. And put a tight slap on the
face of the mother of the poor kids. What that lady was doing for so
long? She should not give birth of children if she can’t give them
time.
6 people liked this.
Indian-to-the-core 11 hours ago
Let every reader of these columns know it. If this driver was some
Salman Ali, these comments would have been full of nothing but hatred
against his community and religion. Let every reader know that
whenever I see this kind of news, I look for the name of criminal
first. When it is some other name, it gives me a sense of relief that
there will be no such comments now. Needless to say any such news,
whosoever may be criminals and the victims, hurts me badly. I hope HT
lets these comments printed in full.
6 people liked this.
Class IX student’s home was crime den
HT Correspondent, Hindustan Times
New Delhi, September 18, 2010
First Published: 01:21 IST(18/9/2010)
Last Updated: 01:23 IST(18/9/2010)
6 Comments
It was the house of a Class IX student that became the safe haven for
a paedophile cab driver and four teenaged boys who allegedly sexually
exploited three children — two boys aged 7 and 10 years and a 12-year-
old girl in central Delhi. The police said the main accused, Lalit
Ratawal (38), took
related stories
Driver drugs, rapes, films employer’s children advantage of the fact
that the children did not have a father. The police said the class IX
student who used to take the same cab was made a part of the heinous
act when the accused realised that he had the same inclination. The
student got three other friends to join him.
The accused would plan the act in such a manner which ensured that
none of the three children missed classes for a long time.
As the class IX student and his friends are juveniles, no case can be
registered against them.
“Both the parents of the Class IX student are teachers and were not
present at home during the day. Ratawal along with this student and
his three friends would then take the sibling to his house, sedate
them and then sexually exploit them,” said Jaspal Singh, deputy
commissioner of police (central).
The police said the mother became suspicious when she saw her children
often in a “dazed and incoherent state”.
“The mother told us that she had even informed the principal of the
school but no action was taken,” said a senior police officer. The
officiating principal of the school where the girl studies said that
she joined a fortnight ago and has not received any such report.
The mother, a widow, lives off rent that she earns from three rooms.
“The accused was aware that the children did not have a father and
took advantage of this. He is married and has two children and lives
in the same area,” said the officer.
Earlier, all the three children used to go the same school but six
months ago the mother shifted the girl to another school.
The police said they have seized the mobile phone of all the four
accused to gather more evidence.
Showing 1-5 of 6 comments
anuj 3 hours ago
Barbarious act…..it was really easy for 38 year old man to misguide
teenagers and involve them in his criminal acts…..this incident would
lead to severe drop in trust in society…Indian middle class is already
facing whole lot of problems for bringing up their children as
responsible citizens……incidents like these further underline the
importance of our old social structure where mother is always
entrusted with upbringing of children…but growing economical pressures
has disturbed that set up and has lead to increase in crimes……culprits
would get punished but it would have lasting effect on the psychology
of the victims……..how would they recover is a big question!!
nisha 4 hours ago
kamino ko beech chorahey p tango sabke samne muh kal karke goli mar do…
tbhi crime kuch kam hoga..jb logo m dar banega….
Ram 9 hours ago
Agreed…but please don’t Talibanise every punishment, or otherwise
punishment will lose its purpose.
Sumitap90pp 6 hours ago in reply to Ram
Incidents like these need to be Talibanized. Simple punishment servers
no purpose. Chop their hands and lash them as it happens in Iran and
other places.
RobinHood 9 hours ago
Shoot those basturds who did this. Even those teenage boys also who
exploited the three . The girl should be need justice. But our law is
in the pocket of Politics & rich persons. Raesoo ki begdi huii
auladee. Kill them in front of public.
1 person liked this.
Sallo ko kat ke chorahey par latka do..
…and I am Sid Harth
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18/09/2010
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Pope meets with clergy abuse victims as thousands protest
By the CNN Wire Staff
September 18, 2010 2:01 p.m. EDT
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Advocacy group praises “courage” of victims who met with the
pontiff
Thousands of protesters demonstrate against Pope Benedict’s visit
Pope Benedict is on his second day in London and third in Britain
He held a Mass at Westminster Cathedral and plans a prayer vigil at
Hyde Park
As a sex abuse scandal rocked the Roman Catholic Church, what did Pope
Benedict XVI — then a cardinal and Vatican official — know, and when?
Watch the investigation “What the Pope Knew,” September 25 & 26 at 8
p.m. ET on CNN U.S. and on September 25 at 7 p.m. CET and September 26
at 8 a.m. HK on CNN International.
London, England (CNN) — Pope Benedict XVI met with five clergy abuse
victims while on his official visit to the United Kingdom, the
Catholic Communications Network said Saturday, the same day the pope
expressed his “deep sorrow” for the scandal that has rocked the
Catholic Church.
But his acknowledgement of the abuse suffered by children within the
church — the first time he has publicly addressed the issue during his
four-day trip to Britain — was not enough to dissuade thousands of
protesters from expressing their anger on the streets of London.
Thousands gathered Saturday near Hyde Park, the site of an afternoon
prayer vigil led by the pope for the beatification of British Cardinal
John Henry Newman, a Catholic convert who died in 1890 and is credited
with helping rebuild Britain’s Catholic community.
A wide variety of sometimes expletive-laced signs could be seen
dotting the crowd of demonstrators, which included atheists, clergy
abuse victims and gay rights campaigners. One poster accused the pope
of being the boss of the “world’s largest sex gang.” Another sign
asked if he “fancied the baby Jesus.”
Are you there? Share pics, video
The protests came hours after the pope addressed the abuse scandal
during Mass at Westminster Cathedral.
“I think of the immense suffering caused by the abuse of children,
especially within the church and by her ministers,” he said. “Above
all, I express my deep sorrow to the innocent victims of these
unspeakable crimes, along with my hope that the power of Christ’s
grace, his sacrifice of reconciliation, will bring deep healing and
peace to their lives.
Has pope done enough to punish guilty priests?
Video: Pope’s UK visit proving controversial “I also acknowledge with
you the shame and humiliation which all of us have suffered because of
these sins; and I invite you to offer it to the Lord with trust that
this chastisement will contribute to the healing of victims, the
purification of the church, and the renewal of her age-old commitment
to the education and care of young people.
“I express my gratitude for the efforts being made to address this
problem responsibly, and I ask all of you to show your concern for the
victims and solidarity with your priests.”
Later Saturday, the pope met with victims of clerical sexual abuse,
according to the Catholic Communications Network, the media office of
the Bishops’ Conference. Three of the victims were from Yorkshire, one
from London and one from Scotland, CCN said. The pope is also expected
to meet Saturday with people involved in the National Catholic
Safeguarding Commission at St. Peter’s Residential Home in Vauxhall,
London.
A board member of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by
Priests, expressed hope that the outcome of the victims’ meeting will
be positive.
“We hope each of these brave individuals feels better as a result of
the meeting, both now and years from now,” Mark Serrano wrote in a
statement. “It takes real courage to disclose your pain to others,
especially those in authority. We hope the risk these victims have
taken will prove to be fruitful, for them, for other victims and for
children being molested today and in the future.”
But Serrano also echoed other SNAP members’ statements made earlier in
the day that the pope needs to take action against abuse, not just
make apologies for it.
“Today’s meeting is more of the same from the Pope: all talk, no
action,” he wrote. “With literally the stroke of a pen, of course, he
could radically change deeply-rooted, centuries-old destructive
patterns of recklessness, callousness and deceit within the Catholic
hierarchy that have directly led to hundreds of thousands of trusting
children and vulnerable adults being raped, sodomized and fondled by
clerics. But he refuses.”
The Mass at Westminster Cathedral came on the second day of the pope’s
visit to London, and the third day of his visit to the United Kingdom.
Crowds lined the street outside the cathedral, the mother church for
Catholics in England and Wales. Afterward, the pope greeted a crowd of
2,500 children gathered in the cathedral’s piazza; later, he was due
to visit the residents of a Catholic care home.
The pope spent Thursday in Edinburgh and Glasgow, Scotland, and
planned to travel to Birmingham, England, on Sunday.
Six men remained in custody Saturday after their arrests a day earlier
on terrorism charges — incidents that prompted officials to review the
pope’s security arrangements.
Some news reports said the arrests involved a potential threat to the
pope, but the Metropolitan Police declined to say whether the case was
directly linked to the pontiff’s visit.
Five of the men are street cleaners who were arrested before dawn on
suspicion of the commission, preparation, or instigation of acts of
terrorism. They appeared to be Algerian, a high-ranking source
familiar with the investigation said, adding that some or all of them
were probably in the country illegally.
A sixth man was arrested later in the day by counterterrorism
detectives investigating the possible plot against the pope, police
said.
All were arrested under the Terrorism Act 2000, which allows police to
hold them without charge for 28 days.
Police said Saturday that their searches in the case were complete.
The arrests did not lead to any changes in the pope’s schedule, which
on Friday included events rich in history and symbolism. He met
Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams at his residence, Lambeth
Palace — the first time a pope has ever visited there.
Benedict then spoke to members of the British Parliament at
Westminster Hall, which dates to 1097 and is the oldest building in
the parliamentary complex. It was there in 1535 that Thomas More, a
Catholic, was convicted of treason and sentenced to death for refusing
to accept King Henry VIII’s marriage annulment and repudiate the pope
after Henry broke with the Vatican and created the Anglican Church.
The pontiff stressed to the political audience that reason and faith
can and should co-exist.
“Religion,” he said, “is not a problem for legislators to solve, but a
vital contributor to the national conversation.”
Later, at nearby Westminster Abbey, an Anglican church, the pope
prayed alongside the archbishop of Canterbury at the tomb of Edward
the Confessor, the English king who built the abbey and was buried
there after his death in 1066. He spoke once again about the
commitment to unity among Christian churches while noting the
obstacles.
CNN’s Melissa Gray, Carol Jordan and David Wilkinson contributed to
this report.
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, News, Views and Reviews
18/09/2010
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Autumn13
Autumn11
Autumn12
Autumn10
Autumn9
Autumn8
Fall Foliage New England Style –
These Memories Last a Lifetime…
You’ve read about fall foliage New England style… you’ve heard other
people rave about it… you’ve even seen the brilliance of it in
stunning pictures ablaze with brilliant yellow, glowing orange, fiery
red, and rich brown… and you may even know fall foliage struts through
New England in September and October – guaranteed!
But fall in New England really begins in August…
The shortening daylight hours trigger the deciduous trees to begin the
process of turning their leaves. It happens all around North America,
and all around the world.
But in New England it’s special. How special?
Well to be honest, it’s difficult to put in words – so how about you
watch a brief video I’ve put together for you that lets you visit a
fall vacation in all six New England states from the comfort of your
chair.
Ready. Just press play.
Now not only are the autumn colors breathtaking but they have the
power to produce experiences that last a lifetime.
So far I’ve bathed in 29 autumns in New England, and I never cease to
marvel at nature’s riveting show every year.
It’s the best time to see New England…
And one of busiest seasons for visitors. In this special fall foliage
section of the New England Vacations Guide you’ll find information on
scenic drives, fall festivals, and other resources to help plan your
New England fall foliage tours.
But don’t leave your fall foliage planning any longer, I wasn’t
kidding when I said fall is one of the busiest times to visit New
England.
In a minute I’ll give you some resources to check out if you still
haven’t finalized your travel plans yet.
Now all this talk of fall foliage has me chomping at the bit to tell
you more. But you know, autumn in New England is more than just about
leaf peeping and scenic drives…
It’s also about apple picking and pumpkin picking, and special fall
festivals and fairs. It’s about hot apple cider and delicious fall
recipes.
But let’s start by seeing when it all happens…
Fall Foliage New England Peak Reports…
or Chasing the Fall Foliage…
Fall in New England generally lasts between mid-September in Northern
New England until Late October in Southern Connecticut and Rhode
Island.
Here’s peak viewing based on a comparison between the 2008 and 2009
seasons to help in your fall foliage New England trip planning…
The fall colors in 2008 were spectacular and they were almost as good
in 2009. Peak colors came a little later in 2009 but lingered much
longer.
We had fall colors in the southern New England states drifting into
November.
But whenever you come in October you’ll see brilliant fall colors as
long as you’re prepared to drive around. The busiest period for
tourists tends to be on Columbus Day weekend which in 2010 is Monday
October 11th.
Remember peak is just a point in time that can vary from one
mountainside to another, and great colors can be seen two weeks before
peak and two weeks after in a region once it arrives.
As you review nature’s timetable from past years remember they’re just
a guide as each year is different.
How come?
Well, the timing of the fall foliage season, the intensity and type of
colors seen, and how long the leaves remain on the trees, is all a
factor of precipitation, wind, and temperature.
This is why fall foliage peak viewing times can vary year-by-year by
1-2 weeks.
Why a Fall Foliage New England Vacation?
Here’s why the fall is a great time for a vacation… the summer
vacationers have all gone home, and school is back… and it’s still
warm!
The conditions are just right if you’re one of the lucky ones that can
take a vacation in the peace and quiet of fall foliage vacation
season.
Now you’re free from crowds to enjoy the warm autumn days and ramble
along roads carpeted in kaleidoscope patterns of fallen leaves…
Or take walks over picture perfect hills and streams made even more
vibrant because of the colorful fall foliage New England trails.
If you prefer to be independent and set your own itinerary or stay in
a particular area, then a fall foliage vacation rather than a tour
could work best for you.
The fall foliage peak color days vary by state but in Massachusetts
it’s usually right around Columbus Day weekend.
Fall Foliage in East and West: New Hampshire
Fall Foliage in East and West: Utah
Fall Foliage in East and West: Colorado
Fall Foliage in East and West: Maine
Fall Foliage in East and West: Yosemite
East vs. West: Who’s got the best fall foliage?
September 21, 2009, 01:30 PM by Kristin | 684 Comments |
It’s well known that New England is a spectacular place to be in the
fall, when the advent of autumn turns the region’s trees into a riot
of flaming color. But just because New England’s fall reputation is so
stellar, does it follow that the region has the best foliage around?
Not so fast, say many in the West, who assert that their leafy golden
wonders can hold their own with New England during foliage season.
A new Bing Travel article from the Associated Press puts the question
to the test in a foliage smackdown. It presents some of the best
places to see colorful leaves in five of the six New England states,
as well as locations in California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana and Utah,
noting prime spots to check out lovely leaves on maples, sycamores,
oaks and aspens.
For my part, although I’ve lived in the West most of my life, the two
years I spent in Boston make me side with the New England contingent.
I especially like the Berkshires in western Massachusetts, where the
all-encompassing blaze of color is like nothing I’ve ever seen on the
other side of the country.
The AP article doesn’t make a judgment call on whether East or West is
best, so we’d like you to weigh in. Where are the best places to enjoy
foliage in these regions, or perhaps in another area, like the
Midwest? Share your favorite spots, and your vote, in the comments
section. And then, fans of Bing Travel can upload your own fall
foliage photos to the Bing foliage gallery on Facebook. Your image
could be chosen as the “photo of the week.”
Marilyn Parkinson
Posted On September 21, 2009, 03:17 PM
No doubt…New England is the best place to be in the Fall
because of the maple trees esp. the sugar maple. The best
Falls are when the days are dry and the nights are cold.
This is the true Indian summer. Litchfield County in
NW CT is absolutely gorgeous this time of year esp near
Lake Waramug, and the towns of Washington and Cornwall and
Kent.
KMA
Posted On September 22, 2009, 08:02 AM
Living in Northeast PA, fall has always been the the most spectacular
time of the year for me with all the scenery changing. Unless you
witness it for yourself no words can explain how majestic the
hillsides, valleys or mountaintops look.
Get in the car and hit the road this weekend! With the KMA Global
Travels Road Trips search (www.kmaglobaltravels.com), you can find
great destinations and fantastic deals just a short drive from
wherever you are.
Visit PA and see the blaze of glory along its highways, country roads
and coastline! www.visitpa.com/…/index.aspx.
Hope you enjoy!
LRaine
Posted On September 22, 2009, 09:17 AM
The East! Albeit I am a West Coaster born and bred- but every year I
try to make my way out to somewhere along the east coast to see the
fall leaves. It’s beautiful!
Sean
Posted On September 22, 2009, 09:48 AM
New England and Upstate New York are easily the best places to see
foliage. I grew up in Northern California, but it just does not
compare to the stunning beauty of Fall in the Northeast.
ML
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:08 AM
WHAT ABOUT ADIRONDICKS
SMP
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:17 AM
I’ve lived on both coast, and though the West gets some nice golds,
it’s nothing compared to the brilliant colors that the East gets. The
East also gets a better mix; you can stand in one spot and see greens,
reds, oranges, golds of every shade, and purple. The West typically
has one type of leaf in one area. The East wins, hands down.
jlk
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:18 AM
I grew up in NY and spent many days upstate at different times of the
year. I now live in the southeast and the autumn leaves are without a
doubt the thing I miss the most. Nowhere else do the sugar maples
reach the height of color and then mix with all the other varieties of
trees. It is a color pallet unsurpassed by any artist and the kind
only God can make. If you have never experienced it, you have missed
out on something breathtaking. You must see to appreciate it.
jak
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:20 AM
The mountains of West Virginia are ablaze with color in the Fall.
There is something very beautiful and primitive in it’s mountains and
hollows. I have lived in the Virgin Islands, Georgia, and Texas most
of my adult life, but every Fall, no matter where I am, my thoughts go
back to WV.
Marlene Bramlett
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:29 AM
I vote for the colors along the Blue Ridge Parkway in North Carolina!
Mike D
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:35 AM
Colorado, the Rockies in fall time. Absolutely beautiful. I can’t
comment on the east coast since i’ve never been there. But not only do
you get the aspen’s changing, you can hear the elk bulgling. You can
also take a nice hike up and get a overall breathtakingly beautiful
picture of all nature has to offer during fall.
allison park
Posted On September 22, 2009, 10:41 AM
The BLue Ridge Parkway in Tennessee is the very best.
The ride is so breath taking seeing all the colors,
and the cool brisk air. The Parkway around Pigeon
Forge, Gatlingburg and Cherokee is well worth driving.
Experience the beauty of nature. You will love it.
The AP article doesn’t make a judgment call on whether East or West is
best, so we’d like you to weigh in. Where are the best places to enjoy
foliage in these regions, or perhaps in another area, like the
Midwest? Share your favorite spots, and your vote, in the comments
section. And then, fans of Bing Travel can upload your own fall
foliage photos to the Bing foliage gallery on Facebook. Your image
could be chosen as the “photo of the week.”
taf
Posted On September 22, 2009, 11:11 AM
My vote is for Northeastern PA. The fall foliage colors are
breathtaking. I am originally from Philadelphia and we have been
traveling to upstate PA for the past 35 years for the experience. Our
children now take their children. Rickett’s Glen is quite beautiful
with the waterfalls, the smell of autumn air and the changing tree
colors.
CAROL GINGRICH
Posted On September 22, 2009, 11:19 AM
I HAVE VISITED MOST OF THE EASTERN STATES IN FALL AND IT WASN’T UNTIL
MY SON MOVED TO DUNMORE W.V., THAT I BELIEVED SUCH INCREDIBLE COLOR
WAS THERE. ON A SUNNY DAY, IT LITERALLY GIVES ONE EYE
STRAIN.POCOHANTIS STATE PARK, TRIP ON CASS RAILROAD, SENECA ROCKS AND
STATE PARK,ETC…YOU’VE GOT TO SEE IT ALL!
dan
Posted On September 22, 2009, 11:41 AM
if you happen to be traveling on Hwy 44 southwest Missourri has
fantastic views. Between Rolla, MO and Springfield, MO are many great
sights for fall foilage.
DESI
Posted On September 22, 2009, 11:42 AM
I think that the Smoky Mountains in Tennesse are absolutely breath
taking in the fall. Take a trip from Gatlinburg to Cades Cove and you
have to watch your driving because the views are exquisite. Then take
a trip from Gatlinburg Cherokee NC along the Overland Gap and the
beauty is so overwhelming it breathtaking.
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
18/09/2010
« Pope, Oops, Crocodile did it
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
navanavonmilita
Delhi Terrorist Attack
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/19/delhi-terrorist-attack/
Jama Masjid Delhi
19 September 2010 Last updated at 04:15 ET
Tourists shot near Delhi mosque
The Jama Masjid mosque is a popular tourist destination Two foreign
tourists have been injured after gunmen on a motorcycle opened fire on
a bus in the Indian capital, Delhi, police say.
The incident took place near the Jama Masjid mosque, a popular tourist
destination.
Local television reports said the injured tourists were Taiwanese.
There have been concerns over the security situation in the city,
which is due to host the Commonwealth Games next month.
Police, who have launched a search for the gunmen, said the attack
happened near gate number three of the historic mosque but gave no
further details.
A doctor from the nearby Lok Nayak Jay Prakash Hospital told the
Agence France-Presse news agency that both the injured were men, and
that one had been shot in the stomach.
Terrorist attacks
Security in Delhi has been tightened ahead of the the Commonwealth
Games, which run from 3-14 October.
The country has suffered a number of serious militant attacks in the
past few years.
In November 2008, at least 170 people were killed in co-ordinated
attacks in Mumbai.
More recently, 17 people were killed in a blast at a bakery full of
tourists and students in Pune in February.
Earlier on Sunday, Australia said it would send a team to the Games
despite a warning from a private firm of consultants over the threats
posed by failings in the city’s public transport network.
“Delhi is a densely populated city and the opportunity for a terrorist
strike in the city’s choking traffic and crowds is obvious,”
consultant Roger Henning told Australian News Limited newspapers.
Two foreigners wounded in Delhi shooting
NEW DELHI (Reuters) – Two foreigners were wounded when gunmen opened
fire near the main mosque in the Indian capital but it was unclear if
this was a militant attack, police said on Sunday.
The incident comes only two weeks before the opening of the
Commonwealth Games in New Delhi and security has been tightened in the
capital, with authorities mindful of militant attacks in Indian cities
over recent years in which dozens have been killed.
The condition of the two wounded tourists was not immediately known.
CNN-IBN television reported that the foreigners were Taiwanese, but
police could not confirm their nationality.
“There was some firing outside gate number 3 of Jama Masjid (Delhi’s
main mosque),” Delhi police spokesman Rajan Bhagat told Reuters. “We
can’t say (whether it was a militant attack).”
“Two foreigners have been injured. A few rounds have been fired by
unidentified gunmen.”
There have been some militant attacks in India this year.
In February, a powerful blast ripped through a restaurant in the
western city of Pune, killing 17 people. India has blamed the Indian
Mujahideen, a homegrown militant group with links to militants in
Pakistan, for the Pune attack.
India remains jittery about a perceived threat of Islamist attacks
from Pakistani territory. It accuses its neighbour of failing to act
against militant groups that have threatened to disrupt the
Commonwealth Games.
Peace talks between longtime rivals India and Pakistan were halted
after the 2008 Mumbai attacks by Pakistani-based militant group
Lashkar-e-Taiba that killed 166 people.
(Reporting by Alistair Scrutton and Bappa Majumdar; Editing by Alex
Richardson)
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Propaganda, Religious fundamentalism,
Terrorism
19/09/2010
« Autumn: Heaven on the Earth, Oops, USA
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
navanavonmilita
Hinduism Forum »
SOME POINTS ON RAJDEEP SARDESAI'S OPEN LETTER TO...
SOME POINTS ON RAJDEEP SARDESAI'S OPEN LETTER TO...
Author Message
Dr. Jai Maharaj... Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:00 pm
Guest
Forwarded message from Ashok Chowgule
Some points on Rajdeep Sardesai's open letter to Uddhav Thackeray
Friday, February 12, 2010
In an open letter to Uddhav Thackeray, on the Shiv Sena severe
criticism of Shahrukh Khan, Rajdeep Sardesai writes: "Sharukh is no
surprise since the Sena has always been uncomfortable with the Indian
Muslim identity."
Clearly the secularists cannot view ANY issue except on communal
terms. There are some Muslims who are members of the Shiv Sena and
also who support the Shiv Sena. I guess, accoroding to Rajdeepji,
they are really not true Muslims. And what about Muslims who have
also criticised Shahrukhji on this issue? I guess, they too are not
true Muslims.
Rajdeepji also writes: "You've called Sharukh a traitor for wishing
to choose Pakistani cricketers in the IPL. "
This is an utter and blatant lie. But then to show one's so-called
secular credentials it is necessary to resort to lies. Without which
one cannot make any case.
Rajdeepji knows (or should know) that Shahrukh was termed a traitor
by Shiv Sena because he said that Pakistan is a GREAT neighbour.
Now, one can say that Shiv Sena is wrong on this issue. But bring
out his statement out in the public, rather than tell les.
Furthermore, Shajrukhji should be asked why he did not choose any
Paksitani players himself.
Rajdeepji would like Uddahvji to focus on some important issues. For
example, he writes: "Farmer suicides still continue, the after-
effects of drought are still being faced in several districts, but
the focus is now squarely on finding high profile hate figures."
I am sure if Rajdeepji devotes the resources of his channel on these
important issues, instead of giving a minute-by-minute report on the
travel programme of Rahul Gandhi in Mumbai, the people of this
country would be eternally grateful to him.
Rajdeepji writes: "The Congress-NCP government in the state has been
thoroughly incompetent: the last decade has seen Maharashtra decline
on most social and economic parameters."
I do not watch Rajdeepji's channel. Has he highlighted this issue of
incompetence in any meaningful manner?
A general question. Has Rajdeepji written an open letter to Digvijay
Singh on the latter's visit to Azamgarh in UP, which is well-known to
be a hotbed of creators of terrorists in India? He will probably
write a letter in open praise of Digvijayji.
The open letter is available at:
<a href="http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/rajdeepsardesai/1/61523/an-open-
letter-to-uddhav-thackeray.html">http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/
rajdeepsardesai/1/61523/an-open-letter-to-uddhav-thackeray.html</a>
Religion Forum Index »
Hinduism Forum »
FOOD FOR SOUL
FOOD FOR SOUL
Author Message
Dr. Jai Maharaj Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:14 pm
Guest
Forwarded message from "akash singh" <a
href="mahara...@yahoo.com"mahara...@yahoo.com</a>
[ From: "akash singh" <mahara...@yahoo.com>
[ Subject: Fwd: Food for soul
[ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003
Pranam,
There is this lady called yamuna harshavardhan from
chennai (where else !!!) who writes an article on
msn.co.in called "food for soul". Primarily it is an
agency for christian propaganda. For all it counts she
herself could be christian. Read through here articles
here on
<a href="http://server1.msn.co.in/foodforsoul/foodindex.asp">http://
server1.msn.co.in/foodforsoul/foodindex.asp</a>
Prior to evangelizing for christianity she had written
some articles on the "mythologies called Ramayana and
Mahabharata". Notice that none of the stories of the
Mahabharata have anything remotely to do with the The
Lord of the Universe, Narayana in his avatar as Lord
Krishna. In contrast look at her iconification and the
hagiography of christ.
Some months back I had pointed this out in a post to the
discussion forum of the column. I had also claimed that
Gates donation of 300 million for AIDS is a not
altogether altruistic. We know that most of the time this
kind of money is used for christian conversions. Also it
does not escape anyone's notice that MSNBC, the
conservative news channel in the US is part owned by
Microsoft. Also has everyone forgotten that Microsoft's
Encarta Encyclopaedia has the material written on
Hinduism by one "wendy doniger".
Attached below is the response from the lady in question.
No mention is made of the issues that I had raised. Only
some references to the fact that so and so is Hindu are
made. The very fact that my post got this lady to respond
means that things are not what they seem to be.
And yes notice that she says "I wish Hindus get educated
about the good in the Bible and then teach the
Christians"
Namaste,
Akash
amuna Harsha <a
href="yamuna...@hotmail.com">yamuna...@hotmail.com wrote:</a>
Quote:
Pranam Mr. Akash
This is Yamuna Harshavardhana from Chennai writing you
(though rather late as I came by this only now) with
regard to your criticism of Food for soul. I am Hindu
without a doubt and all the mythological stories (so far
all the stories were from the Mahabharata and Ramayana is
to follow the Bible) were written by me. I wonder which
Christian is catholic enough to do so???
Leave Bill Gates aside- he sits in Seattle and
Evangelisation should be far from his business concerns.
I am certain of this as I am associated with MS in ways
other than Food for Soul. Nearer home, the Production
Manager for the MSN India site is Mr Krishna Prasad
(certainly he is not Christian) the website designers are
a company called Vishwak (I am sure it is Hindu) and at
the global level, the MSN World manager is Mr. Aravind
Sampath who I know personally to be a chaste Hindu.
Therefore even you can rest assured MSN is not on an
evangelisation spree - I wish Hindus get educated about
the good in the Bible and then teach the Christians.
I do not mean to be arrogant, but please get your facts
right before you point a finger at any person, Mr. Akash.
With Best Wishes
Yamuna
End of forwarded message from "akash singh" <mahara...@yahoo.com>
Jai Maharaj
<a href="http://www.mantra.com/jai">http://www.mantra.com/jai</a>
Om Shanti
Panchaang for 3 Chaitr 5105, Tuesday, March 23, 2004:
Shubhanu Nama Samvatsare Uttarayane Moksh Ritau
Meen Mase Shukl Pakshe Mangal Vasara Yuktayam
Ashvini-Bharani Nakshatr Vaidhruti Yog
Gar-Vanij Karan Tritiya-Chaturthi Yam Tithau
Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
Dr. Jai Maharaj Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2004 4:15 pm
Guest
Forwarded message from "Ashok Chowgule"
<ash...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in>
[ From: "Ashok Chowgule" <ash...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in>
[ Subject: Re: Fwd: Food for soul
[ Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003
When Yamunajis says ("I wish Hindus get educated about
the good in the Bible and then teach the Christians")
there is an implicit assumption that the Christians have
got educated about the good in Hinduism and are now
teaching the Christians. Can she elaborate on this
assumption?
Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org
The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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#1 01-04-2008, 09:19 AM
Dr. Jai Maharaj Posts: n/a
AFTER CHITPAVAN RALLY, A MULTILINGUAL BRAHMIN CONFERENCE AT BEED
Forwarded message from Ashok Chowgule
After Chitpavan rally, a multilingual Brahmin conference at Beed
By Rakshit Sonawane
The Indian Express
December 27, 2007
Introduction: Maya shadow looms as community talks about
unity move ahead of Lok Sabha elections
Close on the heels of a rally of Chitpavan Brahmins in
Pune, a multilingual conference of Brahmins has been
organised in Beed, indicating a possible political
polarisation of the community in Maharashtra ahead of the
next Lok Sabha elections.
The two-day conference, to be held on January 19 and 20 at
Jani-janardhan Nagar in Beed, is expected to be attended by
Brahmins from all shakhas and also migrants from other
states speaking different languages, unlike the Pune rally
that was exclusively for Chitpavans.
According to political sources, the state-level rallies
might lead to polarisation of the community in the next two
years. Various shakhas of the community have already held
district-level and division-level meetings over the past
one year in the state. These" shakhas have lambasted
mainstream political parties like the Congress for ignoring
Brahmins and have in principle agreed to work for a party
which would give them their share of power.
"The aim of this conference is to unite Brahmins from all
shakhas, work for their welfare and provide guidance to
enable all, including poor
among them, to face the challenges of future with
confidence," Namdeo Kshirsagar, the general secretary of
the Bahu-Bhashik Brahman Maha-Adhiveshan 2008, told The
Indian Express. "We are expecting Brahimins from all parts
of Maharashtra, speaking different languages like Marathi,
Kannada, Tamil, Telugu and Hindi to attend the conference."
"We are not only going to deliberate on our traditions; but
also discuss women's issues, education and self-employment
opportunities for ' the poorer among us," he said.
When asked whether, the conference would have any political
overtones, he replied in affirmative. "The political link
is there...it can't be separated," he said.
"Some Brahmins are already in politics, but are divided
into various parties and organisations. We want to unite
them." He pointed, out that some senior politicians would
be felicitated at the conference, which would also
enlighten the participants on various issues, including
asserting themselves politically. He added that guidance
would be provided for overall development of Brahmins,
materially and intellectually. "For instance, we'll also
provide information on modern methods of farming to
Brahmins of who till land," he said.
The agenda of the conference includes: giving up
traditional practices that are harmful to society,
providing information on modern technology and employment
opportunities, inculcating the need for bringing in social
equality, making efforts to help needy students and
unemployed youths, and empowering Brahmin women to face the
modern world.
Though the percentage of Brahmins in the state is around
three, most of them are highly educated and hold
responsible positions in the government and private sector.
There are a few pockets in the state, where Brahmin voters
can tilt the scales in elections. "There is a feeling among
the Brahmins that despite. their intelligence, they are
sidelined in politics and thereby denied power in the
democratic setup," a senior politician said, pointing out
that the recent awareness in the community had come after
BSP leader Mayawati's "sarvajan hitaya" experiment by
teaming up with Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh and giving them
powerful political positions.
However, the BSP has denied it has a hand in organising the
conferences.
"It is true that there is a renaissance and Brahmins are
coming together after the Uttar Pradesh experiment, but we
have no role to play (in organizing Brahmin conferences),"
the state general secretary of BSP Suresh Mane said. "It is
a spontaneous activity."
Nevertheless, it may be recalled that some speakers at the
Chitpavan rally at Pune had urged the community to
introspect on its political fate and warned the government
about a polarisation on the lines of Uttar Pradesh.
End of forwarded message from Ashok Chowgule
Message from discussion GANG WAR ERUPTS IN BHENDI BAZAAR
bademiyansubhanallah
More options Feb 24, 10:02 am
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj,
soc.culture.indian.marathi, soc.culture.indian.karnataka,
rec.arts.movies.local.indian
From: bademiyansubhanallah <elcidha...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:02:58 -0800 (PST)
Local: Wed, Feb 24 2010 10:02 am
Subject: Re: GANG WAR ERUPTS IN BHENDI BAZAAR
Mr. Ashok V. Chowgule
Vice President
Vishwa Hindu Parishad
Maharashtra, India
Access contact information!
Find more info on this person at Intelius.com
Ashok's profile was created using:
53 online sources [ view sources ]
Employment History
Vice President
Vishwa Hindu Parishad
President
Vishwa Hindu Parishad
President of Maharashtra State Unit
Vishwa Hindu Parishad
Executive Director
Chowgule and Co.
Chairman and Managing Director
Chowgule and Co.
President
VHP-America
Senior Member
VHP-America
President
Maharashtra
President
Goa Pranth
Shipyard-Division Executive Director
Goa Pranth
Vice President
Vishwa Hindu Paris
Board Memberships and Affiliations
Honorary Secretary (past)
Baripada Leprosy Home
Certifications
No certification information is available.
Education
Economics and Statistics
Bristol University
Case Western University
Biography
No biography information is available.
1-10 of 53 online sources for Ashok Chowgule
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamWarWithinIslam_1.aspx?Ar - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 11/10/2009 Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Ashok Chowgule,Vice-President, VHP
From: Ashok Chowgule
To: Sultan Shahin Edi...@NewAgeIslam.com
Ashok Chowgule, Vice-President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamArticleDetail.aspx?Artic - [Cached
Version]
Last Visited: 12/10/2008
Ashok Chowgule
www.sprisminvest.com/CompanyProfile/corporateinner.aspx - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 2/5/2009 Last Visited: 2/5/2009
Ashok V Chowgule
www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=NEWS& - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 10/30/2003 Last Visited: 12/10/2007
Ashok Chowgule
Deceased Graham Stewart Staines (hereinafter referred to as
'Staines')
as an Australian National whose tryst with Mayurbhanj in Orissa began
in the year 1965 when he made rendezvous with its District
Headquarter
at Baripada for treatment and eradication of Leprosy amongst the poor
and did an excellent job in the field.He became the honorary
Secretary
of Baripada Leprosy Home.He was also the Secretary of the Evangelical
Missionary Society of Mayurbhanj (EMSM).As a missionary, he was
preaching Gospel and spreading the tenets of Christianity in jungle
camps held in different tribal belts in the district of Mayurbhanj
and
Keonjhar.
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamRadicalIslamismAndJihad_ - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 9/29/2009 Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Ashok Chowgule, Vice-President, VHP
Ashok Chowgule, Vice-President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
conoship.com/uk/press/page55.htm - [Cached Version]
Published on: 10/6/2006 Last Visited: 9/8/2007
Yard boss Ashok Chowgule says Indian coastal shipping is still
undeveloped and presents revenue-earning opportunities.
Ashok Chowgule: in shipbuilding for the long haul.
The industrial and shipping group was started by Chowgule & Co
executive director Ashok Chowgule's grandfather with a small
manufacturing business.
Today, the group is involved in industrial explosives, salt and
gases,
as well as brewing, marketing agencies and machine fabrication.Its
iron-ore mining generates around three million tonnes of exports per
year, some two million tonnes to Japan and one million tonnes to
China.All are free-onboard (FOB) contracts.
Involved in the business are the Chowgule brothers, Ashok and group
chief executive Vijay, and their first cousins.Ashok and Vijay's
father is now 91 years old but is described as being "still not
exactly retired".
Ashok says India's manufacturing strength is not appreciated given
its
educated workforce, industrial knowledge and strong, commercial and
legal infrastructure, 'which, he claims, makes it relatively easy to
operate in the country.
Things happen slowly in India but those who get into shipbuilding,
given the environmental-impact hoops they have to go through, are
serious players and will be there for the long term, says Ashok
Chowgule.
www.hinduvoice.net/cgi-bin/dada/mail.cgi?flavor=archive - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 5/24/2007 Last Visited: 5/24/2007
On 5/22/07, Ashok Chowgule
www.letindiadevelop.org/resources.html - [Cached Version]
Published on: 4/24/2006 Last Visited: 5/18/2009
by Ashok Chowgule in association with Hindu Vivek Kendra
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamDebate_1.aspx?ArticleID= - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 7/14/2009 Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Ashok Chowgule has posted an 18 month old off-topic article in this
dicussion of the veil. While sanghis and VHP-ites write frequently in
Muslim oriented outlets, Muslim community leaders, including even the
editor of Milli Gazette, cannot get their letters published in
newspapers such as the Pioneer!
7/15/2009 9:50:11 AM Ashok Chowgule, Vice President, Vishwa Hindu
Paris
Ashok Chowgule
toSultan ShahinEdi...@NewAgeIslam.com
Ashok Chowgule, Vice President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP)
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamWarOnTerror_1.aspx?Artic - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 11/1/2001 Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Ashok Chowgule
With reference to the enclosed article.
Ashok Chowgule, Vive President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
10/31/2009 1:42:21 AM
11-20 of 53 online sources for Ashok Chowgule
www.conoship.com/uk/press/page54.htm - [Cached Version]
Published on: 9/8/2007 Last Visited: 9/8/2007
Yard boss Ashok Chowgule says Indian coastal shipping is still
undeveloped and presents revenue-earning opportunities.But first,
cargo has to be generated.
Chowgule Group is widely known for its iron-ore mining activities and
bulker fleet but it is now playing a key role in the country's rise
to
prominence on the international shipbuilding scene.
Early last year, Chowgule secured contracts for six multipurpose
cargoships (Multi Purpose Cargos) from a joint venture involving
Navigia, the Dutch affiliate of Germany's Rudolf Schoning, and
Hamburg
based Apollo Shipping.
All this is a huge leap from Chowgule building inland barges for the
domestic market.Its sights are now set on constructing coastal
vessels
for the group's own use and eventually containerships and products
tankers.
Chowgule's international presence has been achieved by becoming an
associate member of the Groningen, Holland-based Conoship marketing
and design organization.
Conoship is assisting Chowgule develop its Loutulim and Rassaim yards
in the state of Goa and has put it in touch with equipment suppliers,
including hatch-cover and main engine manufacturers.It has also
organised the design house in Holland for the Multi Purpose Cargo
production drawings.
Also, Conoship helped educate Chowgule in how ships of this size are
produced in Holland.New computer numerical control (CNC) cutting
equipment was purchased from Australia based on broad specifications
outlined by Conoship.The 20 identical Multi Purpose Cargo's of 4,450
dwt have an aggregate price of around $120m based on an average of
$6m
per unit.
Ashok Chowgule, the group's shipyard division executive director,
says
the origins of the shipyard business can be traced back to the
family's iron-ore mining activities and its building and repair of
mechanized barges for hauling the ore by river to ports.
Grab and suction dredgers, deep-sea fishing trawlers, tugs, hopper
barges and coastal ships have all been produced over the years - more
than 100 so far in total.But Ashok Chowgule says that for a long time
it remained a relatively small production, partly because of India's
environmental regulations preventing the establishment of large
private-sector shipyards.When circumstances changed in the 1990s,
Chowgule started investing and within the space of 18 months built
around 23 inland barges totaling roughly 55,000 dwt.
Infrastructure improvements have in recent years included upgrading
Rassaim from repair to newbuildings, concreting areas of the yards
and
currently converting workshops for fabrication usage.Also, new
covered
areas are manufacturing hatch covers designed by Roden Staal, which
will also be present to supervise final construction and fitting.
Currently, the Chowgule yards employ around 45 people in
administration, accounts, commercial and technical roles, while
around
500 to 600 workers are subcontracted in depending on requirements.
"We have invested in getting them trained for the requirements of a
modern yard," insisted Ashok Chowgule.He claims that as regards
steelwork, standards are already 99% of those found inEurope.The
quality of machinery installation is less clear, although still
"good"
with the help of sup- pliers.
Much depends on improving management skills and giving them the
"right
tools to do the job" adds Chowgule.
There are no European managers employed at the yards but overseas
consultants are used regularly.
Ashok Chowgule concedes that India has benefited from the general
overspill of work from full yards in China.One obvious advantage,
however, is labour costs being a fraction of competitors in the West.
Typical yard pay is about EUR 0.50 ($0.60) per hour, as compared with
EUR 20 in Holland.
Conoship introduced owners to Goa, where Ashok Chowgule says it did
not take long to convince them of its potential.The initial contact
with Conoship took a long time but it did not take long to persuade
them to work together. . Holland was targeted as a partner because of
its excellent track record in building smaller cargoships.
The shipyard chief hopes that within the next few months, when
Chowgule is scheduled to deliver the first Multi Purpose Cargos, it
can prove it has fast-tracked in achieving European levels of
workmanship.
Its 20-strong series of Multi Purpose Cargos is scheduled for
completion between January 2007 and December 2009.Ashok Chowgule
believes that because of investments in the yards, the last may even
be a few months early.
...
Yards in the global market as reliable suppliers of cargoships of up
to 6,000 dwt, says Ashok Chowgule.They will focus on building
containerships and possibly products tankers once the Multi Purpose
Cargos are delivered.
"At the moment we aren't actively in those markets because we want to
concentrate our energies in making the yards efficiently" he said.
We have introduced many new things and know it will take a lot of
effort and a certain amount of time.
He estimates the Multi Purpose Cargos are costing between 5% and 7%
below European prices.
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamWarOnTerror_1.aspx?Artic - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 9/28/2009 Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Objective Condition/Matter is the primary source for the idea, It can
lead Buddha to go to jungle in search for Nirvana, conditions could
lead a small time thief Ajmal Kassab to come to India along with his
compatriots on a so-called Jihad mission and kill innocent civilians,
Conditions is the First and foremost factor that it can give a super
constitutional authority to Mr Chowgule to put to test any Muslim
citizen in India for trustworthiness, religious beliefs etc.
Instead of welcoming this great moment and great efforts on the part
of two dignitaries, who are an authority in their respective field,
Mr. Chowgule has targeted the integrity of Malauna, who really don't
need any certificate from anyone, including Sang Parivar and its
progenies to prove his credentials.
If Ajma Kassab and Ashok Chowgule are the faces of same coin, so
please don't be surprised if you may come to know, Afghan Jihadi-Anti
War Forces are two sides of the same coin.
Ashok Chowgule, Vice-President, VHP
From: Ashok Chowgule
...
Ashok Chowgule, Vice-President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
9/30/2009 5:43:48 AM
www.hvk.org/specialarts/ichr/articles/0009.html - [Cached Version]
Published on: 7/8/1998 Last Visited: 3/23/2007
Posted By Ashok V. Chowgule (asho...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in)
www.newageislam.com/NewAgeIslamArticleListWithGroup.asp - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 12/10/2008 Last Visited: 4/7/2009
Ashok Chowgule, Vice President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP)
www.newageislam.org/NewAgeIslamLetters.aspx?GroupID=43 - [Cached
Version]
Last Visited: 12/9/2009
Ashok Chowgule, Vice President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad
Ashok Chowgule, Vice President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP)
www.hvk.org/ram/a3.html - [Cached Version]
Published on: 3/23/2007 Last Visited: 3/23/2007
Ashok Chowgule President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra
The Ram Janmabhoomi issue has revolutionised the politics of the
country.A fragmented Hindu samaj has been united to an extent unheard
of in recent times.
www.hvk.org/ram/a4.html - [Cached Version]
Last Visited: 3/23/2007
Ashok Chowgule President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra.
www.hvk.org/Publications/ludden.html - [Cached Version]
Published on: 8/7/2006 Last Visited: 3/23/2007
Ashok Chowgule, President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra, India
www.conoship.com/content/view/62/59/text/javascript/tex - [Cached
Version]
Last Visited: 9/27/2008
Yard boss Ashok Chowgule says Indian coastal shipping is still
undeveloped and presents revenue-earning opportunities.
...
Ashok Chowgule: in shipbuilding for the long haul.
Ashok Chowgule
The industrial and shipping group was started by Chowgule & Co
executive director Ashok Chowgule's grandfather with a small
manufacturing business.
Involved in the business are the Chowgule brothers, Ashok and group
chief executive Vijay, and their first cousins.Ashok and Vijay's
father is now 91 years old but is described as being "still not
exactly retired".
Ashok says India's manufacturing strength is not appreciated given
its
educated workforce, industrial knowledge and strong, commercial and
legal infrastructure, 'which, he claims, makes it relatively easy to
operate in the country.
Things happen slowly in India but those who get into shipbuilding,
given the environmental-impact hoops they have to go through, are
serious players and will be there for the long term, says Ashok
Chowgule.
"Desaffronization" or Apology? - [Cached Version]
Published on: 1/30/1995 Last Visited: 7/7/2004
Ashok Chowgule, President of Maharashtra State unit of the Vishwa
Hindu Parishad in his book Christianity in India - The Hindutva
Perspective has narrated the acts of atrocities by the Catholic
Church
on the Hindus.
21-30 of 53 online sources for Ashok Chowgule
9. Are Indian tribals Hindus? - [Cached Version]
Last Visited: 3/10/2009
But there is also, mostly in the BJP, a strong no-nonsense wing of
businessmen, more or less the old (pro-Western, anti-socialist)
Swatantra Party constituency, which has no patience with such
sentimentalism, and refuses to "turn India into a conservation site".
116 Thus, the VHP president for the Mumbai region, Ashok Chowgule,
owned (until 1998, when he sold it) a company which furnished cement
to the Narmada Dam.
A Factual Response to the Hate Attack on the India... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 4/24/2006 Last Visited: 5/18/2009
At the time, the President of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP),
Maharashtra Pranth, Ashok Chowgule commented as follows:
To this, Ashok Chowgule responded as follows:
[107] This section draws extensively from "An analysis of the
report :
'The Foreign Exchange of Hate - IDRF and the American funding of
Hindutva' " prepared by Ashok Chowgule in association with Hindu
Vivek
Kendra (<a href="http://www.hvk.org">http://www.hvk.org</a>)
A Factual Response to the Hate Attack on the India... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 4/24/2006 Last Visited: 12/25/2008
Ashok Chowgule is an industrialist, managing sections of the family
business, a well-known, successful, and respected business house. The
group is headquartered in Goa. The family has set up schools and a
college in Goa, operations in which Ashok takes keen interest.
Ashok completed his schooling in Belgaum, India after which he went
on
to graduate in Economics and Statistics from Bristol University in
the
U. K., and completed his business studies at the Case Western
University in Cleveland, Ohio. Upon returning home, he has looked
after the finance and administration of the business group, and
lately
has been supervising the shipbuilding component of the family
business.
As a part of his social responsibilities, he has been actively
involved in the Vishwa Hindu Parishad since 1991, and at present is
the President of the Maharashtra State unit of the organisation. He
has written several articles and books on the socio-political issues
of Hindutva. Ashok and Hindu Vivek Kendra (HVK) have also recently
published an analysis and of the Sabrang/FOIL Report titled "An
Analysis Of The Report 'The Foreign Exchange Of Hate."
A Tribute to Hinduism - [Cached Version]
Published on: 10/30/2000 Last Visited: 7/10/2006
By Ashok Chowgule
(Ashok Chowgule, President, Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra).
AWAAZ - South Asia Watch - [Cached Version]
Last Visited: 8/17/2008
But VHP's Ashok Chowgule said in an interview: "We deny all the
allegations.
But Ashok Chowgule, a senior member of the VHP (World Council of
Hindu
Churches), a prominent affiliate of the RSS, said: "We deny all of
the
allegations.
Adelaide IMC: newswire/8876 - [Cached Version]
Published on: 9/9/2004 Last Visited: 8/13/2005
Ashok Chowgule, president of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Maharashtra
region, counters in an email statement that 'if this provocation
argument has to be accepted, then we have to accept that the
terrorist
attacks of September 11 on the USA was entirely justified because the
terrorists have said that they have been provoked by the policy of
the
USA'.
Ashok Chowgule | Rating of NGOs | www.karmayog.org - [Cached Version]
Published on: 6/2/2007 Last Visited: 11/25/2008
Ashok Chowgule asho...@chowgulegoa.com
Assocham -- Managing Comittee Members - [Cached Version]
Published on: 6/12/2000 Last Visited: 2/2/2001
Mr. Ashok V. Chowgule Director Chowgule & Co.Ltd.Bakhtawar 4th Floor,
Nariman Point MUMBAI - 400 021
BJP FRIENDS - Old Article - [Cached Version]
Published on: 4/17/1996 Last Visited: 2/16/2009
Ashok Chowgule
Bangalore Initiative for Religious Dialogue To Hold... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 10/12/2004 Last Visited: 10/23/2005
BANGALORE INITIATIVE FOR RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE (BIRD) & THE CAREY
SOCIETY
(United Theological College) have jointly arranged a talk by Mr.
Ashok
Chowgule, President, Maharashtra unit of the VHP, on "The Hindu view
on Religious Conversions", followed by an interactive session, at
5.30
p.m., Thursday, 5 August 2005, at the United Theological College, 63
Millers Road.
Campaign to Stop Funding Hate - [Cached Version]
Published on: 3/8/2004 Last Visited: 11/7/2009
But VHP's Ashok Chowgule said in an interview: "We deny all the
allegations.
Campaign to Stop Funding Hate - [Cached Version]
Published on: 2/26/2004 Last Visited: 11/7/2009
But Ashok Chowgule, a senior member of the VHP (World Council of
Hindu
Churches), a prominent affiliate of the RSS, said: "We deny all of
the
allegations.
Campaign to Stop Funding Hate - [Cached Version]
Published on: 4/12/2006 Last Visited: 2/7/2010
Ashok Chowgule, the suave spokesman for Hindutva gave us a hint of
the
post script even as IDRF kept insisting carefully that it has no
connections with the RSS.
Ultimately, did Ashok Chowgule, Vinod prakash, Narayanan Komerath,
Ramesh Rao Yvette Rosser and Belu Mehra and lesser planets,
asteroirds
and others who pulled their weight behind the 200 page report support
the emergence of an ugly world ? Legally no.
ChaloMumbai.Com - The Complete Digital Guide to the... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 3/3/2002 Last Visited: 3/3/2002
For a man who almost brought Mumbai to a halt on March 1, Ashok
Chowgule, president of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Mahrashtra is
a picture of peace.Seated in his high-rise apartment at Peddar Road,
which is painted white and has huge paintings adorning the walls,
Chowgule said that the Ayodhya mission is not the culmination of
failed talks with the Muslims but with so-called secularists.
At what point did the dialogue with the Muslim leadership fail?Why
such haste in the plans?It is not failed talks with Muslims that has
created this situation but the failure of talks with those who call
themselves secularists that has made us more steadfast in our aim.And
we had explained our plans in great details earlier.After the 100-day
maha yajna ends on March 15, we will claim what is ours at Ayodhya.
ChaloMumbai.Com - The Complete Digital Guide to the... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 3/14/2002 Last Visited: 3/14/2002
Ashok Chowgule, the state unit president of the organisation is out
of
India, according to the organisation's activists.
VHP are expected to offer what they call 'nam smaran' pujas in
temples
like the Sanyas Ashram, Khar.The pujas involve chanting of Lord
Rama's
name.
Chowgule Steamship taps into coastal trade | Conoship... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 12/29/2008 Last Visited: 1/8/2010
Yard boss Ashok Chowgule says Indian coastal shipping is still
undeveloped and presents revenue-earning opportunities.
Ashok Chowgule: in shipbuilding for the long haul.
Ashok Chowgule
The industrial and shipping group was started by Chowgule & Co
executive director Ashok Chowgule's grandfather with a small
manufacturing business. ...
Involved in the business are the Chowgule brothers, Ashok and group
chief executive Vijay, and their first cousins. Ashok and Vijay's
father is now 91 years old but is described as being "still not
exactly retired".
Ashok says India's manufacturing strength is not appreciated given
its
educated workforce, industrial knowledge and strong, commercial and
legal infrastructure, 'which, he claims, makes it relatively easy to
operate in the country.
Things happen slowly in India but those who get into shipbuilding,
given the environmental-impact hoops they have to go through, are
serious players and will be there for the long term, says Ashok
Chowgule.
Companies & Industry - [Cached Version]
Published on: 10/1/2005 Last Visited: 10/31/2005
All vessels are of 4450 DWT capacity which will be delivered in next
three years," Chowgule and Company Ltd Executive Director Ashok V
Chowgule said.
With this new orders, Chowgule's shipbuilding division is marking
change in its profile by building cargo ships, he said.At present,
the
company is focussing on iron ore barges, passenger vessels, deep sea
refrigerated fishing trawlers, grab and cutter suction dredgers,
tugs,
twin hull catamarans and floating restaurants.
"The shipyard will not be accepting any fresh orders as the capacity
is full.It is planning to upgrade its capacity to construct 8 vessels
against existing capacity of three years per year," he said.
Chowgule said the company would invest Rs 40 crore to upgrade the
existing facilities by inducting advanced machines.
"It has already invested Rs 10 crore and has installed CNC Plasma
cutting machine which can cut steel plates of 12 metres," he said.
The shipyard, located at Loutulim (Goa), has a good water front, two
construction bays, full fledged workshop, outfitting jetty and
sufficient skid for pre-fabrication facility.
Commenting on the possibilities of acquiring minor shipbuilding
facilities, Chowgule said that the company is now more focussing on
organic growth and would concentrate on ensuring quality of
construction and punctuality in deliveries.
Cybernoon.com - [Cached Version]
Published on: 4/6/2004 Last Visited: 4/7/2004
I discovered that the person was Mr. Ashok Chowgule, the President of
the VHP in Maharashtra and Goa.He obviously felt that I needed to
know
more about the plight of the Hindu pandits in Kashmir who had been
mercilessly driven out of their homeland to languish in camps across
Jammu and Delhi.
I am grateful to Mr. Ashok Chowgule for sending me the book first and
then the film narrating the tales of terror and horror amongst the
survivors who are living in makeshift tents for the last twelve years
with nowhere to go in their own country and no one to listen to their
tales of horror and anguish.
Differences between people and the need to value the... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 5/1/1999 Last Visited: 1/15/2005
Says Ashok Chowgule, spokesperson of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad,
Mumbai, "Conversion is an attack on the Hindu ethos."Ask Immanuel
Kingsley of the Pentecostal group, House of Prayer, and he will tell
you with terrifying certainty, "We are not intolerant but we love
people and want to take them to Jesus so they will not perish in
hell."
Fundamentalist political parties such as the Shiv Sena are
challenging
all forms of freedom of expression.
Divyabhoomi - an encyclopaedia of Indian Culture - [Cached Version]
Published on: 3/6/2003 Last Visited: 3/6/2003
Ashok V Chowgule Ashok Chowgule is an industrialist and the Executive
Director of Chowgule and Company Limited.With degrees in engineering
and business management from England and the United States of
America,
he has been Managing Director, Narmada Cement, the country's first
large private sector cement plant, until recently a Chowgule group
company.He has been instrumental in achieving a sustained growth for
the group over the past few decades.A keen student of Indian culture,
he is the president of the Maharashtra and Goa Pranth of the Vishva
Hindu Parishad.
Nanik Rupani The Chairman of Priyadarshni Academy, Nanik Rupani is a
self-made, first-generation entrepreneur with interests in industries
as diverse as telecommunications, information technology, electronics
and finance.A humanist and a patron of Indian art and culture, he has
been instrumental in promoting and encouraging several deserving
organisations, programmes and individuals aimed at bettering the
human
condition as well as art and culture.The Academy recognises persons
who have contributed exceptionally to society and presents awards
every year.He is a director on the board of many leading institutions
and companies and a philanthropist.
Jayraj Salgaokar Publisher and Managing Director of Sumangal
Publishing that brings out India's largest selling publication,
Kalnirnay, Jayraj Salgaokar has played a key role in making his brand
a household name not just in India but in Indian homes across the
world.Kalnirnay today is as successful a product as it is an
advertising vehicle.He reads widely on Indian culture and is a
connoisseur of performing art and Marathi literature.He writes and
lectures on mass communication, printing technology and management at
institutions and universities.
41-50 of 53 online sources for Ashok Chowgule
Freeindiamedia.com, Express your impartial, radical,... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 9/29/2003 Last Visited: 5/28/2006
In the words of the President of Maharashtra VHP, Ashok Chowgule,
"The
Ram Janmabhoomi issue has revolutionised the politics of the country.
GOANEWS - BY SANDESH PRABHUDESAI - [Cached Version]
Published on: 10/11/2000 Last Visited: 8/21/2003
"The final decision would be taken at the Dharm Sansad, based on a
concrete proposal which would be discussed at the Goa meeting",
informed Ashok Chowgule, the VHP president for Goa and Maharashtra,
who is also a leading mine owner here.
In fact Goa's all the three leading industrial houses have come
together to organise the meeting at Ramnathi temple with Shivanand
Salgaoncar heading the reception committee while Shrinivas Dempo
heading the organising committee.
As half of the ongoing work of carving of pillars for the Ram temple
at Ayodhya and Rajasthan would be completed by next year, Chowgule
says the process to decide about the construction date should also
begin.
"It cannot be at any other place than where the Babri masjid was
situated", he asserts, adding that seeking permission of the central
government to begin the construction work would also be one of the
main issues to be discussed at the Ramnathi meeting.
Stating that the VHP has its own agenda than the Bharatiya Janata
Party, Chowgule also informed that the Bajrang Dal and Durga Vahini
would not be involved in the meeting officially but only its
activists.
...
Equally topping the agenda of the meeting is the issue of religious
conversions allegedly carried out by the Roman Catholic Church and
alleged terrorist activities at the behest of the Baptist churches in
the North Eastern region, informs Chowgule.
The meeting, he said, would also discuss the threat caused to
Haridwar
and Ganga due to the Tehri dam and a grand ceremony to be organised
next year on the occasion of completion of 50 years of the Somnath
temple.
Objecting strongly to the statement made by Pope John Paul II that
mankind can get salvation only through Jesus Christ, Chowgule also
demanded a reaction from the Indian church whether they have a
different viewpoint on it.
Justifying the demand made by the RSS for a swadeshi church, he also
reiterated the VHP stand that Hinduism is the real nationalism in
India and those who believe in Hindu civilisation can only be called
the nationalists."I am not saying that Indian Christians are anti-
nationals", he added.
Expressing fear over Pope's call to dedicate the new millennium to
convert whole Asia into Christianity, he said the margadarshak mandal
would deliberate upon how to counter the threat of religious
conversions and save Hinduism in the Asian region.
Goan Voice UK: Newsletter. Issue 2006-46. Nov. 16, 2006 - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 11/16/2006 Last Visited: 2/7/2010
Goa's Chowgule Group is mulling an entry into building ships for
overseas markets, Ashok Chowgule, the group's shipyard-division
executive director revealed during a visit this week to London. They
are currently building ships at their Loutolim and Rassaim yards in
the state of Goa
ITI-GOA-photogallery - [Cached Version]
Published on: 2/11/2006 Last Visited: 11/6/2009
Chowgule seen 'inking' the M.O.A.
State Director & Shri. Ashok Chowgule, Exec. Dir., M/s. Chowgule
Shipyard Pvt. Ltd., Vasco exchanging the M.O.A. documents State
Director giving a listening ear to our Hon'Minister, Shri.
Iraq\'s maritime industry expects boost with Gulf... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 11/6/2004 Last Visited: 4/10/2006
Ashok Chowgule, chairman and managing director of Chowgule and Co. in
India, as a Gulf Maritime participant, agreed.
?We specialize in building barges and other carriers for many years
in
India.Gulf Maritime, we are confident, will give us the opportunity
to
tap the increased demand for the same in this region,?Chowgule said.
MiddleEastEvents.com - The rebuilding of Iraq to fuel... - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 9/11/2003 Last Visited: 9/5/2006
Mr. Ashok Chowgule, Chairman and Managing Director of Chowgule and
Co.
from India, a participant at Gulf Maritime readily confirms this
trend.
Navhind Times on the Web: Openspace - [Cached Version]
Published on: 8/30/2003 Last Visited: 9/4/2003
The President of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (Goa and Maharashtra) Ashok
Chowgule asks in an interview with Umesh Mahambre why no Christian
organisations are protesting when the churches in UK and US disallow
yoga classes inside their premisesThe VHP welcomed the Tamil Nadu
legislation banning religious conversions, saying it should be
adopted
by all states.Isn't it an anti-constitutional demand?
‘RSS-VHP Serve Their Political Agenda'
The activities of Graham Staines - Christian Aggression - [Cached
Version]
Published on: 10/30/2003 Last Visited: 4/1/2008
Ashok Chowgule
Deceased Graham Stewart Staines (hereinafter referred to as
'Staines')
as an Australian National whose tryst with Mayurbhanj in Orissa began
in the year 1965 when he made rendezvous with its District
Headquarter
at Baripada for treatment and eradication of Leprosy amongst the poor
and did an excellent job in the field.He became the honorary
Secretary
of Baripada Leprosy Home.He was also the Secretary of the Evangelical
Missionary Society of Mayurbhanj (EMSM).As a missionary, he was
preaching Gospel and spreading the tenets of Christianity in jungle
camps held in different tribal belts in the district of Mayurbhanj
and
Keonjhar.
The zealots who would inherit - [Cached Version]
Published on: 2/16/1999 Last Visited: 5/1/2002
From: Ashok ChowgulePresident,
Vishva Hindu Parishad - [Cached Version]
Published on: 2/5/2002 Last Visited: 6/29/2006
SECULARIST ANGST - ASHOK CHOWGULEVishva Hindu Parishad
51-53 of 53 online sources for Ashok Chowgule
nude police -- nude police - [Cached Version]
Published on: 1/12/2001 Last Visited: 7/2/2006
NEWS : Police question Husain over nude painting Posted By Ashok V
Chowgule (asho...@giasbm01.vsnl.net.in) Sat, 18 Jan 97 22:30:33 EST
Messages sorted by: [ author ] [ date ][ subject ][ thread ...
‘I want what is mine’ - [Cached Version]
Published on: 7/27/2001 Last Visited: 4/14/2002
‘I want what is mine' Ashok Chowgule, explains the logic behind the
VHP's agenda
For a man who almost brought Mumbai to a halt on March 1, Ashok
Chowgule, Maharashtra president of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP),
is
a picture of peace.Seated in his high-rise apartment at Peddar Road,
which is painted white and has huge paintings adorning the walls,
Chowgule said that the Ayodhya mission is not the culmination of
failed talks with the Muslims but with so-called secularists.
At what point did the dialogue with the Muslim leadership fail?Why
such haste in the plans?
It is not failed talks with Muslims that has created this situation
but the failure of talks with those who call themselves secularists
that has made us more steadfast in our aim.And we had explained our
plans in great detail earlier.After the 100-day maha yagna ends on
March 15, we will claim what is ours at Ayodhya.
‘I’m happy organisers had sense’ - [Cached Version]
Published on: 2/19/2007 Last Visited: 2/19/2007
When contacted, VHP president Ashok Chougule said, "I am happy the
organisers had some sense in them."
http://www.zoominfo.com/Search/PersonDetail.aspx?PersonID=39038676
...More to follow about this Hindu rascal
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/19/press-release-for-immediate-publication/
B: “A?”
A: “Boss, Boss, OH, Boss.”
B: “A. I am ready whenever you are.”
A: “Boss, you ain’t not ready for this.”
B: “This what?”
A: “This what?”
B: “I asked you first.”
A: “Boss, nobody asked nuttin’ for this.”
B: “You are sure? Absolutely, categorically, indubitably sure?”
A: “Yes Boss. I swear on my mother’s grave, oops, ashes. Cross my
heart and hope to die.”
B: “So who the hell asked?”
A: “God.”
B: “God who?”
A: “Brahma. The god who created this universe.”
B: “Why would the creator god Brahma ask for whatever is ‘this’?”
A: “Let me check to make sure. The note attached says and I quote,
“This is Brahma.”
B: “So that’s all? Does he say anything further?”
A: “Yes Boss. It says something in Sanskrit. I can’t read Sanskrit.
Please do me a favor. Read it yourself.”
B: “OK. It says and I quote the original Sanskrit, oops, Sanskrit is
dead. Let me translate it in American. “
A: “OK. You are the Boss. Do it quick.”
B: “Quicker than quickest. ‘Press Release: For Immediate
Publication.’”
A: “Publication of what?”
B: “Announcing the Kalki, the eleventh avatar of Vishnu.”
A: “That’s all?”
B: “No, A. That’s not all. It has some kind of attachment.”
A: “Shall open the attachment?”
B: “Are yu kidding? It may have a Hindu worm, oops, a Hindu virus.”
A: “OK. Let the McAffe virus detector find it.”
B: “What is McAffe boys say?”
A: “Dangerous Hindu Virus located. Name of the Holy ,Oops, High Holy
Hindu Hoodlum Virus ‘HHHHVHP’ aka, Dr Jai Maharaj destroyed.”
B: “May Allah be Praised.”
The End
Kalki
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other meanings, see Kalki (disambiguation).
Kalki
Copper engraving of Kalki from the late 18th century.
Devanagari कल्कि
Affiliation Avatar of Vishnu
Weapon Sword
Mount Horse
In Hinduism, Kalki (Devanagari: कल्कि; also rendered by some as Kalkin
and Kalaki) is the tenth and final Maha Avatar (great incarnation) of
Vishnu who will come to end the present age of darkness and
destruction known as Kali Yuga. The name Kalki is often a metaphor for
eternity or time. The origins of the name probably lie in the Sanskrit
word “kalka” which refers to mud, dirt, filth, or foulness and hence
denotes the “destroyer of foulness,” “destroyer of confusion,”
“destroyer of darkness,” or “annihilator of ignorance.”[1] Other
similar and divergent interpretations based on varying etymological
derivations from Sanskrit – including one simply meaning “White Horse”
– have been made.[2]
In the Buddhist Kalachakra tradition, some 25 rulers of the legendary
Shambhala Kingdom have the title of Kalki, Kulika or Kalki-king.[3]
Maha Avatara
Hindu traditions permit numerous interpretations of what avatars are
and to what purpose they act. Avatara means “descent” and indicates a
descent of the divine awareness into manifestations of the mundane
form. The Garuda Purana lists ten avatars, with Kalki being the tenth.
The Bhagavata Purana initially lists twenty-two avatars, but mentions
an additional three for a total of twenty-five avatars. He is
presented as the twenty-second avatar in this list.
Popular images depict him riding a white horse with wings known as
Devadatta (God-given.) In these images, Kalki is brandishing a sword
in his left hand and is intent on eradicating the corrupt destitution
and debauchery of Kali Yuga.
The prophecy and its origins
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One of the earliest mentions of Kalki is in the Vishnu Purana, which
is dated generally to be after the Gupta Empire around the 7th century
A.D.[4] In the Hindu Trimurti, Vishnu is the preserver and sustainer
of life, balancing the processes of creation and destruction. Kalki is
also mentioned in another of the 18 major Puranas, the Agni Purana.
Agni is the god of fire in the Hindu pantheon, and symbolically
represents the spiritual fire of life and the processes of
transformation. It is one of the earliest works declaring Gautama
Buddha to have been a manifestation of Vishnu, and seems to draw upon
the Vishnu Purana in its mention of Kalki. A later work, the Kalki
Purana, a minor Purana, is an extensive exposition of expectations and
predictions of when, where, and why it is said he will come, and what
he is expected to do. A few other minor Purana also mention him.
The Agni Purana explains that when the evil men who pose as kings
begin devouring men who appear righteous and feed on human beings,
Kalki, as the son of Vishnuyasha, and Yajnavalkya as his priest and
teacher, will destroy these evil men with His weapons. He will
establish moral law in the form of the fourfold varnas, or the
suitable organization of society in four classes. After that people
will return to the path of righteousness. (16.7-9) The Agni Purana
also relates that Hari, after giving up the form of Kalki, will go to
heaven. Then the Krita or Satya Yuga will return as before. (16.10)
The Vishnu Purana also explains that, “When the practices taught in
the Vedas and institutes of law have nearly ceased, and the close of
the Kali age shall be nigh, a portion of that divine being who exists
of His own spiritual nature, and who is the beginning and end, and who
comprehends all things, shall descend upon earth. He will be born in
the family of Vishnuyasha, an eminent brahmana of Shambhala village,
as Kalki, endowed with eight superhuman faculties. By His irresistible
might he will destroy all the mlecchas and thieves, and all whose
minds are devoted to iniquity. He will reestablish righteousness upon
earth, and the minds of those who live at the end of the Kali age
shall be awakened, and shall be as clear as crystal. The men who are
thus changed by virtue of that peculiar time shall be as the seeds of
human beings, and shall give birth to a race who will follow the laws
of the Krita age or Satya Yuga, the age of purity. As it is said,
‘When the sun and moon, and the lunar asterism Tishya, and the planet
Jupiter, are in one mansion, the Krita age shall return.’” (Book Four,
Chapter 24)
The Padma Purana relates that Lord Kalki will end the age of Kali and
will kill all the wicked mlecchas and, thus, destroy the bad condition
of the world. He will gather all of the distinguished brahmanas and
will propound the highest truth. He will know all the ways of life
that have perished and will remove the prolonged hunger of the genuine
brahmanas and the pious. He will be the only ruler of the world that
cannot be controlled, and will be the banner of victory and adorable
to the world. (6.71.279-282)
The Bhagavata Purana states, “At the end of Kali Yuga, when there
exist no topics on the subject of God, even at the residences of so-
called saints and respectable gentlemen , and when the power of
government is transferred to the hands of ministers elected from the
evil men, and when nothing is known of the techniques of sacrifice,
even by word, at that time the Lord will appear as the supreme
chastiser. (2.7.38) It further describes Lord Kalki’s activities as
follows: “Lord Kalki, the Lord of the universe, will mount His swift
white horse Devadatta and, sword in hand, travel over the earth
exhibiting His eight mystic opulences and eight special qualities of
Godhead. Displaying His unequaled effulgence and riding with great
speed, He will kill by the millions those thieves who have dared dress
as kings.” (12.2.19-20)
The Kalki Purana combines all of the elements from the puranas above.
He is one who has power to change the course of time stream in the
favour of the good. He will be one to whom the power to change the
destiny of the world will be given.It states the evil family of the
demon Kali will spring from the back of Brahma. They will descend to
earth and cause mankind to turn towards depravity. When man stops
offering yagna to the gods, Vishnu himself will descend to earth to
rid the world of evil. He will be reborn as Kalki to noted Brahmin
family in the city of Shambhala. As a young man, He will be mentored
in the arts of war by Parashurama, the sixth incarnation of Vishnu.[5]
He will then set out across the world battling evil kings and false
prophets. He finally defeats Kali and brings about the Satya yuga.
Having completed His mission, He will assume his four-armed form and
return to heaven as Vishnu.
Followers of Tibetan Buddhism have preserved the Kalachakra Tantra in
which “Kalkin” is a title of 25 rulers of the mystical realm of
Shambhala. The aims and actions of some of these are prophesied in
portions of the work.
Kalki and Shambala
Kalki
The Kalachakra tantra was first taught by the Buddha to King
Suchandra, the first dharmaraja of Shambhala.[6] “Lord Kalki will
appear in the home of the most eminent brahmana of Shambhala village,
the great souls Vishnuyasha and Sumati.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam Bhag.
12.2.18)[7]
Literal translation:
शम्भल ग्राम मुख्यस्य ब्राह्मणस्य महात्मनः।
भवने विष्णुयशसः कल्किः प्रादुर्भविष्यति।।
Srimad Bhagavata Maha Purana – 12:2:18
शम्भल ग्राम मुख्यस्य ब्राह्मणस्य महात्मनः।
शम्भु Shambhu (Shiv Shambhu Bhola)[6][7] + ल or ले (of) + ग्राम Grama
(Community/Village) + मुख्यस्य Mukhyasya (Principally) + ब्राह्मणस्य
Brahmanasya (of the Brahmins) + महात्मनः Maha Atman (Great Souls)
Shiva Durga[8] worshipping community principally of great souls
Brahmins.
भवने विष्णुयशसः कल्किः प्रादुर्भविष्यति।।
भवने Bhavanê (At the home of) + विष्णु Vishnu + यशसः Yáśas (Worthy) +
कल्क Kalk ( Mud or Sediment) + इ i (to arise from, come from) +
प्रादुर् Prādúr (Arise/Born) भविष्यति Bhavishyati (In the future)
In the future at the home of Vishnu worthy, one from the mud/sediment
will arise/be born.
This points to a name equivalent to mud or sediment born.[9]
द्वादश्यां शुक्ल-पक्षस्य माधवे मासि माधवम्।
जातं ददृशतुः पुत्रं पितरौ हृष्ट-मानसौ।। (1:2:15 Kalki Purna)
द्वादश्यां शुक्ल-पक्षस्य माधवे मासि माधवम्।
द्वादश्यां – द्वा dvA (two) + दश्यां dashya (tens/10′s) meaning 20
शुक्ल-पक्षस्य – शुक्ल Shukla (bright) + पक्षस्य(pakshaya) parts (the
first part of the moon cycle) + माधवे madhva is Hindu month of Chaitra
(First day of Chaitra is when Lord Brahma created the universe) March/
April + मासि masi (month of) + माधवम् madhavam it is a point of
reference to the birthday of Lord Krishna celebrated as Krishna
Janmashtami which is observed on the eighth day of the dark half or
Krishna Paksha of the month of Bhaadra (parts of August and
september).
Alternatively
द्वादश्यां – द्वा dvA (two) + दश्यां dashya (tens/10′s) meaning 12
शुक्ल-पक्षस्य – शुक्ल Shukla (bright) + पक्षस्य(pakshaya) parts (the
first part of the moon cycle) + माधवे madhva is hindu month of
Chaitra[10] (First day of Chaitra is when Lord Brahma created the
universe, Hindu new year starts) March/April + मासि masi (month of) +
माधवम् Lord Krishna (as Kalki) arrived. जातं ददृशतुः पुत्रं पितरौ
हृष्ट-मानसौ।।
जातं jatam (born – brought into existence) + ददृशतुः dadastu (then) +
पुत्रं putram (a son) + पितरौ pitarau (parents [were]) + हृष्ट hrshta
(thrilling with rapture, rejoiced, pleased, glad, merry) + मानसौ
manasau (mental feeling). Twenty, first fortnights of the moon cycles
from the birthday of Krishna (Krishna Janmashtami – Bhaadra/August)
then in the month of Chaitra (March/April) the father was mentally
overwhelmed by the son being born. This points to the sun sign of
Aries.
or
12th of the first part of the moon cycle in the month of Chaitra
(March/April, Hindu new year) Lord Krishna (as Kalki) arrived then the
father was mentally overwhelmed by the son being born This also points
to the sun sign of Aries. In Chaitra month, the fifteen days in Shukla
paksha (first fortnight / first half of the month) are dedicated to
fifteen gods or deities. Each day of Chaitra month is dedicated to
each God. People worship a God on each day, the 12th day (Chaitra
Dwadashi) is dedicated to Lord Sri Maha Vishnu.
The marriage of Kalki
Kalki Purna:
मत्तो विद्यां शिवाद् अस्त्रं लब्ध्वा वेद-मयं शुकम्।
सिंहले च प्रियां पद्मां धर्मान् संस्थापयिष्यसि।। 1:3:9 ततो दिग्-विजये
भूपान् धर्म-हीनान् कलि-प्रियान्।
निगृह्य बौद्धान् देवापिं मरुञ् च स्थापयिष्यसि।। 1:3:10 श्रुत्वेति वचनं
कल्किः शुकेन सहितो मुदा।
जगाम त्वरितो ऽश्वेन शिव-दत्तेन तन्मनाः।। 2:1:39 समुद्र-पारम् अमलं
सिंहलं जलसंकुलम्। («=सिंहलद्वीप»)
नाना-विमान-बहुलं भास्वरं मणि-काञ्चनैः।। 2:1:40 प्रासादसदनाग्रेषु पताका-
तोरणाकुलम्।
श्रेणी-सभा-पणाट्ताल-पुर-गोपुर-मण्दितम्।। 2:1:41
The beloved of Kalki is “पद्मां” “Padma” (beloved of the “lotus”) who
lives at द्वीप dweep (island) सिंहले Sinhale (not Sri Lanka because
Sri Lanka was known at the time as “Lanka” in MahaBaratha)(सिंह shiha
(Lion) + ले(of))= “the island of the lion”(1:3:9).
The spotless/clean land of the lion one which is surrouned by a
excellent/supreme ocean at the other side of this ocean. (Line 1
2:1:40).
Abundance of different kinds of chariot of the gods (Air-Crafts)
brilliant wealth and prosperity.(Line 2 2:1:40).
Modern interpretations of the Kalki prophecy
Stone plaque of Kalki from the 18th century.
Many modern writers have attempted to link figures in comparatively
recent history to Kalki. Given the traditional account of the Kali
Yuga lasting 432,000 years [11] and having started in 3102 BCE [12],
which makes these claims problematic. Some scholars such as Sri
Yukteswar Giri and David Frawley have claimed that there are
intermediate cycles within the 432,000 year cycle.[13][14]
•Shree Veera Brahmendra Maha Swami, writing about 1,000 years ago in
“Divya Maha Kala Jnana” (literally: “Divine Knowledge of the Time”)
claims that Kalki would arrive when the Moon, Sun, Venus and Jupiter
have entered the same sign; such occurrences are not rare and the next
is expected in the year 2012 or afterwards.[15]
•Pandit Ved Prakash Upadhyay has argued in his book Kalki Autar aur
Muhammad Sahib that Muhammad completed all the prophecies of the Kalki
avatar.[16] The book Muhammad in the Hindu Scriptures claims Muhammad
to be Kalki based on research from all Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads.
[17] [18], Absence of any phrase present in kalki purana or any other
purana comparing the Muhammad with kalki and some even banish these
claims as incomplete and mere co-incidences.
•Ismaili Khojas, a Shia Muslim group from Gujarat and Sindh and
followers of Aga khan, believe in the 10 incarnations of Vishnu.
According to their tradition Imam Ali, the son-in-law of prophet
Muhamad was Kalki.[1][2]
•Members of the Bahá’í Faith have interpreted the prophecies of
Kalki’s arrival as being references to the arrival of Bahá’u'lláh,[19]
[20] which has played a major role in the growth of the Bahá’í Faith
in India.[21]
•Members of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community believe their founder Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad to be the Kalki Avatar.[22]
•In his book The Aquarian Message Samael Aun Weor claims to be the
Kalki Avatar.[23]
•In their books The Avatar of What Is by Carolyn Lee PhD and Holy
Madness by Georg Feuerstein, they identify claims that Adi Da was the
Kalki Avatar.[24]
•In 16th century Dasam Granth, Guru Gobind Singh wrote that Kalki is
the Vivek Budhi(Intelligent and Spiritual mind) i.e. Gurmat. When the
Sins(Manmatt/Manmukhs) emerge only Gurmat acts as Kalki and vanish all
Manmatt of world. Guru Gobind Singh where narrated whole Kalki Avtar
of Hindu belief in Chobis Avtar, there he ended with this belief that
Kalki is none other than Gurmat. Page 1468/Last Line
See also
•Dashavatara
•Koka and Vikoka
•Mahabharata
•Maitreya
•Ramayana
•Suchandra
References
1.^ The Kalki Purana
2.^ “Appearance of Kalki Avatar”. yoga-philosophy.com. 2003.
http://www.yoga-philosophy.com/eng/kalki/kalki.htm. Retrieved
2008-06-15.
3.^ “Kalachakra History”. International Kalachakra Network.
2006-07-29. http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_history.html.
Retrieved 2008-06-15.
4.^ Wilson, Horace. Vishnu Purana. Ganesha Publishing. pp. 72. ISBN
1-86210-016-0.
5.^ Parashurama himself performed a penance thousands of years ago for
Shiva, who in acknowledgment gave to him control over celestial
weaponry with which to cleanse the Earth of Kshatriya corruption.
6.^ Brahma-Samhita (5:45)
7.^ Parvati/kAli/Durga Lord Shiva’s wife distroyed the demons Shumbh
and Nishumbh.
8.^ Goddess Durga, also known as Parvati or Amba is the wife (consort)
of Lord Shiva and exists in various divine (both friendly and fearful)
forms. Two of her fierce but very powerful forms are Durga (goddess
beyond reach) and Kali (goddess of destruction) who distroyed the
demons shumbh and nishumbh.
9.^ पङ्क (panka) “Mud or Sediment” and ज (ja) “born”.
10.^ Madhava is the name given to the spring or to either of spring’s
two months, Chaitra (BhP 10.65.16, madhu) or Vaisakha (Harinamamrita-
vyakarana 1.103).
11.^ Bhaktivedanta VedaBase
12.^ The Indus Script and the Rg-Veda, Page 16, By Egbert Richter-
Ushanas, ISBN 81-208-1405-3
13.^ The Holy Science, by Jnanavatar Swami Sri Yukteswar Giri, Yogoda
Sat-Sanga Society of India, 1949
14.^ Astrology of the Seers, Lotus Press, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin ISBN
0-914955-89-6
15.^ Hindu Prophecies: Translations from the Kalki Purana
16.^ Kalki Avtar Aur Muhammad Sahib, Pundit Ved Prakash Upadhyay, 1969
and 1970
17.^ Muhammad in the Hindu Scriptures, Pundit Ved Prakash Upadhyay,
Islamic Book Trust, pp. 43-71
18.^ “A reference from bhavishya purana and atharva veda”
19.^ Momen, Moojan (1990). “Hindu Prophecies”. Hinduism and the Bahá’í
Faith. Oxford: George Ronald. ISBN 0-85398-299-6.
http://bahai-library.com/books/hinduism/ch4.htm.
20.^ Buck, Christopher (2004). “The eschatology of Globalization: The
multiple-messiahship of Bahā’u'llāh revisited”. in Sharon, Moshe.
Studies in Modern Religions, Religious Movements and the Bābī-Bahā’ī
Faiths. Boston: Brill. pp. 143–178. ISBN 90-04-13904-4.
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/2010_06/buck_eschatology_globalization.pdf.
21.^ The Baha’i Faith in India: A Developmental Stage Approach by
William Garlington, Occasional Papers in Shaykhi, Babi and Baha’i
Studies, No. 2 (June, 1997)
22.^ Juergensmeyer, Mark (2006). Oxford Handbook of Global Religions.
Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 520. ISBN 978-0-19-513798-9, ISBN
(Ten digit): 0195137981.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lQMurMhRtfIC&pg=PA520&lpg=PA520&dq=mirza+ghulam+ahmad+and+kalki&source=web&ots=U9KkJuucTS&sig=G7Yri05Mxusy3JGIlP-mGej9oJM&hl=en#PPA520,M1.
23.^ Samael Aun Weor (2004) [1960]. The Aquarian Message: Gnostic
Kabbalah and Tarot in the Apocalypse of St. John. Glorian Publishing.
pp. 224. ISBN 0-9745916-5-3.
24.^ Carolyn Lee (2007). The Avatar of What Is: The Divine life and
Work of Adi Da. Dawn Horse Press. pp. 122. ISBN 1-55778-250-4. Georg
Feuerstein (2006) [1991]. Holy Madness: The Shock Tactics and Radical
Teachings of Crazy-Wise Adepts, Holy Fools, and Rascal Gurus. Paragon
House. pp. 189. ISBN 978-1-57097-233-1.
External links
•Text of Kalki Purana in Sanskrit
•Kalki in Indian Mythology 1 2
•Hindu Prophecies: Translations from the Kalki Purana
•Commentaries on the Kalki Purana
v • d • e
Avatars of Vishnu
Dashavatara Matsya · Kurma · Varaha · Narasimha · Vamana · Parashurama
· Rama · Krishna · Balarama* · Buddha* · Kalki
Other avatars Catursana · Narada · Nara-Narayana · Kapila · Dattatreya
· Yajna · Rishabha · Prithu · Dhanvantari · Mohini · Vyasa ·
Prsnigarbha · Hayagriva · Hamsa
*Buddha or Balarama is considered the ninth avatar of Vishnu,
depending on the tradition. In North India, Buddha is included and in
south India, Balarama.
v • d • e
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•This page was last modified on 18 September 2010 at 17:29.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, Religious fundamentalism
19/09/2010
« Diva
cogitoergosum
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/20/delhi-cwg-mess/
Delhi Car Bombing
Jama Masjid Security Detail
Delhi Tourist Bus
Sheila Dixit
New Delhi, September 20, 2010
No RDX, detonator involved in car blast near Jama Masjid: Police
PTI
PTI A car goes up in flames near the site of the Jama Masjid shooting
incident, in New Delhi on Sunday. Delhi Police has said RDX was not
used to trigger the car blast. Related
Ammonium nitrate was used to trigger the car explosion near Jama
Masjid which took place just hours after an attack there on a vehicle
carrying foreign tourists, police said on Monday.
They said no RDX or detonator was used to carry out the explosion.
The explosion had taken place on Sunday, some 50 m away from Gate No.
3 of the Jama Masjid and near a police station just hours after two
Taiwanese nationals were shot and injured outside the mosque.
A top official said the probe into the explosion has been handed over
to the premier Special Cell of Delhi Police on Monday morning.
A case under Explosive Act has been registered in the incident.
About the firing incident, he said a case under IPC 307 and Arms Act,
has been registered and investigations are on.
Investigators have questioned about 30 people following Sunday’s
incidents of firing at the foreigners as well as the explosion.
Keywords: Jama Masjid shooting, car bomb, ammonium nitrate, RDX, Delhi
Police probe
New Delhi, September 19, 2010
Two injured as armed men attack foreign tourists in Delhi
Ashok Kumar
PTI Police officers stand guard outside the Jama Masjid in New Delhi
on Sunday. Related
PHOTOS
The incident took place about 50m away from Gate No. 3 of the Jama
Masjid and near a police station where two men had earlier in the day
fired at a visiting five-member Taiwanese media crew, injuring two of
them.
Two armed men on a motorcycle opened indiscriminate fire outside the
historic Jama Masjid in the Walled City of Delhi on Sunday morning,
injuring two Taiwanese nationals who were about to board a tourist
bus.
A red alert has been sounded as the attack comes barely two weeks
ahead of the Commonwealth Games here.
Just a few hours after the incident there was another security scare
as a Maruti 800 car went up in flames about 100 metres from the
ancient mosque.
Though an e-mail, purportedly sent by the Indian Mujahideen to a radio
station, claimed responsibility for the incident, the police have
ruled out the involvement of any organised terror group.
“Investigation so far does not indicate any specific target or the
involvement of any specific terror group. The police have recovered
seven empty 9 mm cartridges from the spot,” said Delhi Police
spokesperson Rajan Bhagat.
On the possible link between the attack and the fire in a car, Mr.
Bhagat said: “We found a pressure cooker and a circuit in the car. It
is a crude circuit. It could be the handiwork of some disgruntled
group. No explosives or inflammables were found. It may or may not be
linked to the earlier attack on the foreigners.”
The attack took place outside Gate No. 3 of the mosque, just a few
metres away from the local police station, when two men on the
motorcycle opened fire around 11.30 a.m.
An eye-witness said: “I rushed out of my house on hearing the gun
shots. I saw a pillion rider on a motorcycle firing in the direction
of the mosque. He fired a few shots in the air and then trained his
weapon on a group of foreigners standing near a bus. A rickshaw-puller
hurled stones at them and a constable from a nearby picket gave chase
but the motorcyclists escaped through the narrow lanes.”
The injured — Zewei (40) and Chiang (38) — were taken to the Lok Nayak
Jaya Prakash Narayan Hospital and are said to be out of danger.
Keywords: Jama Masjid firing, Taiwanese tourists, Gate No. 3, terror
attack, Commonwealth Games, Indian Mujahideen
NEW DELHI, September 19, 2010
Tourists shaken, eager to go home
Manisha Jha
The tourist bus, targetted by motorcycle-borne gunmen in New Delhi on
Sunday, at the Lok Nayak Jai Prakash hospital. The injured Taiwanese
were rushed to hospital in it. Photo: V.V.Krishnan Related
Condition of one stable but critical; the other conscious and under
observation
When a group of six tourists arrived here on Saturday, little did they
know that their plan for a vacation in the country would go horribly
wrong.
After shot at and injured near the Jama Masjid just a day after their
arrival, two of them Zewei, 40, and Chiang, 38, were undergoing
treatment for bullet wounds at the Lok Nayak Jaya Prakash Narayan
Hospital on Sunday.
While Chiang suffered a bullet injury in the abdomen and underwent a
four-hour operation, Zewei suffered a mild head injury after the
bullet grazed the side of his head. Hospital authorities said both
patients were shifted to the Intensive Care Unit.
The two were part of the six, who work for a television channel in
Taiwan. They were to leave for Jaipur on Tuesday and then visit Agra
and return here on September 27 to board a flight back to Taiwan.
Medical Superintendent Amit Bannerjee said: “Though Zewei is conscious
and stable, he is being kept under observation. Chiang’s condition
after the four-hour surgery is stable, but still critical. Certain
injuries in his abdomen were attended to as part of the surgery.”
“Both the patients were brought in by their tour operator within 10
minutes of being shot at and taken for surgery within the next 15
minutes. The joint efforts of the tour operator and of our own team of
doctors helped to ensure that their condition did not deteriorate any
further,” he said.
Soon after the patients were brought in, the hospital became a virtual
fortress with the administration barring any journalist from entering
the premises. Among the VIPs who visited the hospital were Union Home
Minister P. Chidambaram, Delhi Health Minister Kiran Walia, Shahi Imam
of the Jama Masjid Syed Ahmed Bukhari and BJP leader Vijay Goel and
All-India Anti-terrorist Front chairman M.S. Bitta.
The friends of the injured were kept in a room and allowed to move
around only with the help of escorts, and any attempt to engage them
in conversation was thwarted.
According to an official of the Embassy of Taiwan, the group of
tourists accompanying the injured on the bus were “very shaken and
eager to return home, to safety, as soon as possible.”
“They arrived in Delhi on Saturday, and Sunday was their first day of
outing in the city. They had come with their group of colleagues and
friends and planned a week-long itinerary here in India, including a
visit to the Taj Mahal. However, owing to this unfortunate incident,
they would be cutting short their tour and returning as soon as
possible. They are very nervous and scared owing to the psychological
effect of this incident. Naturally no one would be in a mood to enjoy
and have fun after such a shocking incident…,” he said.
Keywords: Jama Masjid firing, Taiwanese tourists, Gate No. 3, terror
attack, Commonwealth Games, Indian Mujahideen
New Delhi, September 20, 2010
CGF concerned about shooting incident
PTI
The Commonwealth Games Federation (CGF) is concerned about the attack
on a tourist bus here just 13 days before the Commonwealth Games (CWG)
but said there is no evidence to suggest that the incident is linked
to the sporting extravaganza.
Two Taiwanese tourists were injured when a couple of bike-borne
assailants opened fire on a tourist bus near the historic Jama Masjid.
CGF Chief Executive Officer Mike Hooper said while there is no
evidence as yet to show that the attack was linked to the Games, it is
still a matter of concern.
“The matter is ongoing. There is no evidence at this point of time
that it is related to Commonwealth Games. Any attack that happens is a
concern whether it happens here in Delhi or any other part of India or
anywhere else,” Mr. Hooper told reporters.
“Clearly as we consistently said whenever an incident happens, it’s
appropriate that authorities investigate it.
It’s a concern if such incident happens. Of course, it is a concern
for anybody whether it’s around the Games time or not,” he added.
The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs has already issued a
travel advisory, saying there is high risk of a terror strike during
the Games in New Delhi.
The Games’ build-up has already been marred by construction delays and
corruption allegations.
Keywords: 2010 CWG, Mike Hooper, Delhi shooting incident
Mumbai, September 19, 2010
Jama Masjid firing: Mumbai on high alert
PTI
Following the firing incident near the historic Jama Masjid in Delhi
on Sunday afternoon, the city has been put on high alert, police
said.
“After the Delhi incident, even Mumbai has been put on high alert. All
policemen have been asked to remain alert and increase searches,” city
Commissioner of Police Sanjeev Dayal told PTI.
Two men on a motorbike fired several rounds on a tourist vehicle near
Jama Masjid in Delhi, injuring two Taiwanese nationals.
A red alert has been sounded across the capital after the incident.
Mumbai has been on high alert following reports of presence of two
alleged terrorists in the city during the Ganesh Chaturthi festival.
Keywords: Jama Masjid firing, security alert
New Delhi, September 19, 2010
Chidambaram visits victims in hospital
Staff Reporter
PTI Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit has said that after the incident
police will “now step up the security measures and will be more
vigilant”. Related
Union Home Minister P. Chidambaram visited the Lok Nayak Jaya Prakash
Narayan Hospital on Sunday afternoon to enquire about the condition of
the two Taiwanese tourists who were injured in a shooting near the
Jama Masjid.
Mr. Chidambaram was briefed about the condition of the patients by the
doctors. He, however, did not speak to journalists.
The Home Ministry is closely monitoring the investigation and has
sought a report from the Delhi police.
Don’t panic: Sheila
Earlier in the day, Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit appealed to
the people not to panic. “An incident like this is something worrying
but nothing to panic about.”
Ms. Dikshit said she was in touch with the Police Commissioner.
“The police are investigating the incident, and the culprits will be
caught.”
Asked whether it was a security scare ahead of the Commonwealth Games,
she said many security measures had already been taken, but wherever
there was inadequacy the holes would be plugged.
New Delhi, September 19, 2010
Jama Masjid shooting: OC allays Games security fears
PTI
The Commonwealth Games Organising Committee on Sunday said the
shooting incident here this morning will not have any impact on the
Games next month and assured that India would provide foolproof
security to the visiting athletes and officials.
“The shooting incident this morning in Delhi will have no impact on
the Commonwealth Games 2010 Delhi,” the Organising Committee said in a
statement.
Two Taiwanese nationals were injured when two men on a motorcycle
fired several rounds on a tourist vehicle near the historic Jama
Masjid in the walled city.
CWG OC spokesman Lalit Bhanot said the country’s security
establishment has made elaborate arrangements to ensure safe Games for
all the participants and officials.
“The Ministry of Home Affairs and Delhi Police have made elaborate
arrangements to provide the Commonwealth Games athletes and officials
a safe and secure environment,” Mr. Bhanot said in the statement.
“The Commonwealth Games Associations of the nations and territories
have been satisfied with the plans and preparations made by Delhi
Police and the International Security Liaison Group, formed by the
Ministry of Home Affairs,” he said.
Keywords: Jama Masjid shooting, Commonwealth Games 2010, Organising
Committee
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Religious
fundamentalism, Terrorism
20/09/2010
« Global Poverty for Hindu Dummies
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http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/20/water-water-everywhere/
Pakistan-Flood-Victim
Pakistan-Flood-Victim
What the Waters Washed Away
The rural, conservative refugees from Pakistan’s floods have not only
lost their homes, but also their entire way of life.
BY RANIA ABOUZEID | SEPTEMBER 17, 2010
CHARSADDA, Pakistan-Zeynat wipes her tears away with the edge of her
donated, cream-colored dupatta. Her family was separated shortly after
raging floodwaters destroyed her modest, mud-brick home, and it has
been well over a month since she last saw her three teenage daughters.
For the past week, Zeynat and her mother-in-law have been sharing a
tent with her friend and former neighbor, Bach Sultan, and four of
Sultan’s children, in a makeshift settlement here in Charsadda, in the
socially conservative and insurgency-plagued Khyber Pakhtunkwa
province bordering Afghanistan.
COMMENTS (8)
Zeynat’s tent, which lies just feet away from the dozens of others
pitched alongside Charsadda’s Sugar Mill mosque, is sweltering inside.
The front and back tent flaps are kept open in the hope of attracting
a breeze, but they merely serve to expose the women to the view of
passersby. The women say that custom prevents them from idly sitting
outside. The camp’s proximity to the mosque means that the building’s
bathrooms are available for use by the flood victims. This ensures
them a modicum of privacy absent from many other camps, which lack
sanitation or rely on outdoor toilets.
Zeynat, who doesn’t know her age but appears to be in her 40s, is a
Pashtun woman from the outskirts of this agricultural town. She
previously worked as a street hawker, going house to house selling
trinkets, jewelry, make up and scarves to other women. “Those little
sales I made helped me have everything I needed, thank God,” she says.
“I had my house, a little gold and things. It was good.” She was one
of the 21 million Pakistanis that the United Nations says have been
affected by the floods that struck Pakistan in July, and have caused
billions of dollars in damages. Although the floodwaters have largely
receded from the northwest, where they began their destructive course,
the emergency continues to unfold in the south’s Sindh province,
adding to the ranks of the displaced.
Zeynat, her husband, her mother-in-law, and Sultan’s family had
previously been squatting in the Charsadda district hospital’s waiting
rooms. They had stayed there for weeks until the management forced
them out. Their husbands stay away from the tent, and sleep in the
muddy grass outside, in a bid to give the women some privacy.
The women, like many in this camp and in other places where Pashtuns
have sought refuge from the waters, have sent their unmarried
daughters away to live with relatives whose homes were not washed away
by the deluge. “I want them with me but I must protect their honor,”
Zeynat says through tears. “Here the men and the ladies are mixing,
and I don’t like that.” Her daughters, she explains, are staying with
an uncle in Charsadda.
Sultan nods her covered head in agreement. She has also sent her 14-
year-old daughter to live with an aunt. “You see, we are worried about
their reputations,” she said, “because now there is no Parda
anymore.”
Parda, which is also spelled purdah, means “curtain” in Urdu, is the
traditional practice of shielding women from men to whom they are not
related. It is expressed both through physical segregation and through
wearing modest, shape-concealing clothing. Purdah is strictly observed
by many women in rural areas of Pakistan, including the majority-
Pashtun northern belt bordering Afghanistan.
In this region, a family’s honor is often tied to the chastity and
obedience of its women — and protecting and defending their honor from
verbal and physical harm is part of an ancient code of honor and
revenge. But the code is all too often taken to extremes. Barely a
week goes by without a story appearing in the Pakistani media about an
enraged male — from across Pakistan’s multiethnic spectrum — who has
killed a female relative or relatives for some perceived infringement
of “honor.”
Pakistani newspapers this week, for example, carried a report about a
man, identified as Irfan, who shot dead his 22-year-old sister, Saiqa,
because she decided to reunite with her former husband rather than
remain married to another man her family had chosen for her.
Some of the stories are even more gruesome. Earlier this month, a man
named Shaukat Ali drugged his wife and his three daughters, all of
whom were under 10 years old, then casually slit their throats after
they fell unconscious. He then dragged their bodies into the street
and piled them on top of each other, and posted a note on his front
door that read: “I am ashamed of my wife who was stubborn and
arrogant. My daughters could have turned out like her. I have killed
them so that I would not have to suffer the humiliation of their
dishonorable actions. I am a man of honor and I will turn myself over
to the police for their murder.”
For women adhering to purdah, it’s usually easier and safer to simply
remain secluded in their homes than risk a similar disaster. However,
the floods have made this impossible for many. In some parts of
northwestern Pakistan, displacement has forcibly changed conservative
social dynamics. Desperation has driven women to jostle with men for
limited relief supplies. Unrelated men and women now live in close
quarters, the flimsy canvas tents providing little privacy from prying
eyes. “Our men are very upset because their ladies are sitting around
and other men are looking at us,” Sultan says. “It’s very difficult.”
“This is an extremely conservative society where you hardly see women
outside,” says Imtiaz Gul, author of The Most Dangerous Place, a book
about Pakistan’s northwestern tribal belt. The longer these displaced
citizens are trapped in this situation, Gul warns, the likelihood of
frustrations boiling over into violence will only increase.
Akbar Ali, a 27-year-old minivan driver who has been wearing the same
black shalwar kameez, a traditional outfit comprised of a long shirt
over loose pajama-like trousers, for weeks now, is seething. He has
been living in a refugee camp in the town of Nowshera, about 18 miles
southeast of Charsadda, for almost a month with his wife and 2-year-
old daughter. As relative newcomers to the camp, Ali and his small
family missed out on securing covered lodgings like a tent on the
grounds of the Government College of Technology, or a space inside the
school’s two-story brick structure. The classrooms were already
brimming with evacuees, packed four or five families to a room, by the
time he arrived.
He has had to make do with a slab of concrete outside the college
cafeteria, open to the elements. He is desperately trying to rent a
house at any price to get his family indoors, he says, but there’s
little left on the market. He has been offered work but turned it down
because he did not want to leave his wife alone in the camp. “The men
move around the camp. I’m just afraid that one day, if they say
something to my wife, it will cause a problem, a fight, because I will
have to respond,” he avers. “It’s my duty.”
For those families that have managed to secure lodging, the situation
is not much better. Jan Mohammad, a stocky man with an angular jaw and
thick beard, spends most of his day sitting on a straw mat at a safe
distance from the tents in this Nowshera camp. His wife, three young
daughters, and four sons were lucky enough to secure a tent on the
camp’s crowded grounds — but he stays away from that area, opting to
sit under a tree near the main road, to avoid making other women
uncomfortable.
Mohammad says that the floods washed away more than just his home and
possessions. “It’s all gone. Our self-esteem and honor is all gone;
the ladies are living outside. There is no more purdah. If I say
anything to any man who looks at my wife, they will take me to jail,”
he says bitterly.
While these changing social conditions present challenges, they also
have opened up new opportunities for women and girls. According to
Alice Shackelford, country program director of UNIFEM, a U.N. body
dedicated to promoting women’s rights and gender equality, there are
several community-based organizations operating in northwest Pakistan
that are distributing aid only to women, ensuring that they are
recognized as important providers for their families rather than
passive dependents.”With the displaced population there have been
opportunities to access children, in particular girls, who before we
would not necessarily have been able to access,” Shackelford adds.
Still, many girls, like Zeynat and Sultan’s daughters, have been
sequestered elsewhere. “They are grown up girls. We can’t have them
homeless or sitting here like this,” says Zeynat gesturing at the
cluster of white canvas tents around her. “I’m really, really looking
forward to having my own place, whether it’s a verandah or a little
room,” she says. “I want my daughters with me.”
COMMENTS: (8)
MARTY MARTEL
6:16 AM ET
September 18, 2010
Predictable outcome in an Islamic fundamentalist society
Pakistani society has been Islamic fundamentalist in character since
its inception even though Western news media has tried to paint it
otherwise. Koran preaches second class status for women and Pakistan
follows it just like most other Islamic countries.
The core of Pakistan’s extremism problem is rooted in its Islamic
fundamentalist main stream educational system that was instituted way
back in 1976. It has molded Pakistani minds ever since.
It is NOT just madrassas, but even the main-stream educational system
in Pakistan is radicalized by Islamic teaching that projects Islam as
the only savior in the world. Pakistan is suffering from ‘Saudization’
of its society by the education system that was revised in 1976 by the
act of its parliament that, like Saudi Arabia’s system, provides an
ideological foundation for violence and future jihadists. It demands
that Islam be understood as a complete code of life, and creates in
the mind of a school-going child a sense of siege and embattlement by
stressing that Islam is under threat everywhere.
For all his hypocritical talk of “enlightened moderation,” General
Musharraf’s educational curriculum was far from enlightening. It was a
slightly toned down version of the curriculum that existed under Nawaz
Sharif which, in turn, was identical to that under Benazir Bhutto who
had inherited it from General Zia-ul-Haq. Fearful of taking on the
powerful religious forces, every incumbent government has refused to
take a position on the curriculum and thus quietly allowed young minds
to be molded by fanatics.
The promotion of militarism in Pakistan’s so-called “secular” public
schools, colleges and universities had a profound effect upon young
minds. Militant jihad became part of the culture on college and
university campuses. Armed groups flourished, they invited students
for jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan, set up offices throughout the
country, collected funds at Friday prayers and declared a war which
knew no borders.
Not long ago, Pervez Hoodhbhoy, a professor in Islamabad University
wrote the following:
For three decades, deep tectonic forces have been silently tearing
Pakistan away from the Indian subcontinent and driving it towards the
Arabian peninsula. This continental drift is not physical but
cultural, driven by a belief that Pakistan must exchange its South
Asian identity for an Arab-Muslim one. This change is by design.
Twenty-five years ago, the Pakistani state used Islam as an instrument
of state policy. Prayers in government departments were deemed
compulsory, floggings were carried out publicly, punishments were
meted out to those who did not fast in Ramadan, selection for academic
posts in universities required that the candidate demonstrate a
knowledge of Islamic teachings and jihad was declared essential for
every Muslim. Today, government intervention is no longer needed
because of a spontaneous groundswell of Islamic zeal. The notion of an
Islamic state – still in an amorphous and diffused form – is more
popular now than ever before as people look desperately for miracles
to rescue a failing state.
VODKA
12:41 PM ET
September 18, 2010
marty Martel
Marty pleaseeeeeeeee get life………………..if u could AFFORD it,,,,,,,,,,,,
ARYABHAT
4:28 AM ET
September 20, 2010
Floods were trigger not cause
I can understand this regular Pakistan flood related sob stories on FP
as a series to “help and support” Pakistan in its hour need.
However, we need to differentiate between cause and trigger. Cause of
the conditions of the women mentioned here is ISLAMIC way of life in
that part of the world, with second, nay, animal class citizen status.
Floods were mere trigger. God forbid, but it could have been any other
calamity and results would have been the same.
If one really feels like helping them (which I guess everyone does,
despite reservations about militant Islam) then lets help them get rid
of that deeply conservative/fundamentalist mindset and life style.
Yes, it is not easy but then no good solution is easy.
FAKHARUDDIN40
8:35 AM ET
September 20, 2010
Send gift pakistan
Flood has destroyed so many houses of people that we can’t even
imagine, but I think it’s the responsibility of whole humanity to help
those people that are affected by this worst historical flood.
Send gifts to Pakistan
NAVANAVONMILITA
10:59 AM ET
September 20, 2010
Water
It is really terrible for Pakistani people to have lost so much. I
pray for them.
After having read this and other excellent articles on the subject of
floods, I come to conclusion. There is nothing anybody can do to help
these people. Not their God, Allah. Not their country’s rich and
powerful community. Not the government, democratic in name only. Not
the army soldiers and several volunteers of questionable religious/
terroristic background. They are all helpless because the country was
not prepared for the calamity of this size.
The army is called for all kinds of non military work. Army has no
training, nor do they have slightest inclination to help in such
natural disaster. Government at the top is so demoralized that
anything they do is considered suspicious. It is true that outside
help in terms of money, medicines and other necessities flow straight
into the hands of the middlemen/merchants.
The donations are not meant to be sold in the open market or black
market. It is a pity that such help becomes a gold mine for the local
warlords. They quickly convert articles into money and use it to
further their own parochial causes.
The solutions suggested in the discussion are as wild as can be. Some
going for the usual rhetoric of muslim hatred. You can hate Islam for
all you want but leave that for the right mpment. This is not that
moment.
Having discussion forum on FP without any overseeng mechanism is a
stupid idea. Everytime I get to read FP discussion I see lot of trash.
If FP continues with this lackadaisical attitude further, I might stop
reading in future.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Propaganda, Religious
fundamentalism
20/09/2010
« Delhi CWG MessLikeBe the first to
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Examining sex work in a hypocritical society
Monday, September 20, 2010 19:48 IST
XThere is no apparent reason why British MP Mike Weatherley’s wife
Carla (from whom he separated in February) did not feel privileged
enough to disassociate herself from her past. Till recently, she
belonged to the upper crust of society and had all the trappings of
power and pelf. By logic, she should have long forgotten her past in
Brazil as a professional sex worker and reinvented herself in any
which way. All the overpowering reasons of poverty and involuntary
submission that drive a woman towards prostitution were absent in her
case. And yet, there she was, working – and enjoying her work – in
London. She seemed to be doing her business by choice, visibly taking
pride in belonging to what ranks first among the oldest professions.
Carla was being true to herself and for that sole reason deserves the
respect of society which is filled, top to bottom, with hypocrites.
It is human nature to be a part of the system and hide what is
socially unacceptable. Do prostitutes exist for themselves or are they
there because the society at large, made of respectable folks, needs
them?
The argument against legalising prostitution in India – specifically
brothels – stems from the premise that it will corrupt the morals in
society. If you look around, not legalising prostitution has not saved
society in any way. The biggest scams happen right under our noses,
masked under the façade of respectability.
Instead of taking responsibility for the truth as it exists, the
society of respectable people prefers prostitution to stand condemned
and restricted to the gutters. This way, we the masses, our leaders
and celebrities, can deny it exists. (One of the great ironies of
traditional religious carnivals in Pune during June-July and
September, when thousands of rural folk arrive in the city from
neighbouring districts, is a dramatic rise in the footfalls in red
light areas.)
In this age and time in India, when sexual promiscuity is beginning to
explode, would society prefer its men – and therefore, its women – to
suffer the serious health risks associated with unregulated
prostitution? In its own selfish interest, society stands obligated to
do whatever is necessary for improving the lives of prostitutes and
provide them with legal and health benefits, not as an act of charity
but for the well-being of a mature society itself.
Estimates about the number of prostitutes in India range from 2.3-7
million. Unicef estimates that at least a million child prostitutes
exist in Asia, with the highest numbers in India, Thailand, Taiwan and
the Philippines. The World Health Organisation says that more than 50%
of Mumbai’s sex workers are infected with HIV.
In modern day India, we are living in the midst of slaves-for-sex and
the slave trade. Most of the prostitutes who have been forced to waste
their lives in “servicing” society want to give their children a
better future. The least that society can do for them is recognise
them as legitimate workers and give them the benefit of labour laws.
It is pertinent to pay heed to the Supreme Court’s observations in
December, 2009, when a two-member bench asked the central government
to consider legalising prostitution if it was unable to curb it.
Justices Dalveer Bhandari and AK Patnaik asked: “When you say it is
the world’s oldest profession and when you are not able to curb it by
laws, why don’t you legalise it? You can then monitor the trade,
rehabilitate and provide medical aid to those involved.”
Cops involved in child prostitution: activists
TNN, Jul 15, 2004, 12.01am IST
MUMBAI: Though the city police have launched a drive to curb child
prostitution in Mumbai, social activists alleged that it cannot
flourish without the connivance of policemen.
Social activist Anson Thomas, who has accompanied the police in at
least 14 raids at brothels in Nagpada and D B Marg areas, alleged that
some constables and sub-inspectors are known for taking bribes
directly from minors.
“I have seen constables accepting bribes from child prostitutes near
GPOin south Mumbai,” he said. Priti Patkar, who works for the NGO
Prerana, said there was a need to sensitise officers at police
stations on the child prostitution menace.
However, she lauded the steps taken by police chief A N Roy to start a
study circle at the police headquarters where two officers from each
police station interact with NGOs and officers from social service
branch regularly.
“The purpose is to sensitise the staff about issues related to child
prostitution and train them in tackling the menace. The officers are
also taught proper procedure to ensure that the minors rescued do not
land back in the brothels,” said Patkar.
In many cases, the police rescued minors, but subsequently declared
them as ‘majors’ before releasing them. A few years ago, DCP Rajnish
Seth had introduced a procedure that every rescued minor should be
produced before the Child Welfare Committee, which could then carry
out tests to determine her age. But this procedure seems to have been
discontinued at many police stations. Said Seth, “The procedure, if
properly followed, would ensure that the girls do not return to the
profession and are rehabilitated by the NGOs.”
Sources said that inmany cases, the raids were merely an eyewash as
within a few hours, the minors were back in the brothels. This has
happened in a Nagpada brothel, from where three minors were rescued
earlier this year.
The girls were released by the cops and not produced before a juvenile
court. Senior inspector Kalander Sheikh of Nagpada police station
faced an inquiry in this connection and was transferred.
Another example is that of Jamuna Mansion, a building next toD BMarg
police station. There have been at least four raids on it in the last
five years. But every time the brothel-keepers returned within a
month, back in business under a different name.
Said deputy police commissioner (enforcement) Pradnya Saravade, “This
is a major problem where the offenders change names and restart child
prostitution rackets. We are, therefore, building a separate database
of such criminals which will include their photographs.”
The police are also thinking of taking action against the offenders
under the Maharashtra Control of Organised Crime Act (MCOCA), as they
view such rackets as an organised crime.
Though the conviction rate in child prostitution cases is just 2%,
police chief A N Roy has now adopted a three-pronged strategy to curb
the menace.
According to him, every offender will be asked to sign a ‘good
behaviour’ bond, which is a court affidavit stating that the person
would not repeat the offence. Second, they would be included in a
special police record and their movements would be tracked regularly.
Third, the police would seal the premises where the rackets are
operated.
Meanwhile, Anand Shetty, Maharashtra Hotel and Restaurant Ladies
Employees’ Union president, has written a letter to state home
minister R R Patil demanding action against the policemen at D B Marg
police station.
“Most of the policemen are hand in glove with the prostitutes and have
been collecting bribes for the past several months,” he said. A senior
officer at D B Marg police station denied the charge.
More than one lakh residents of red-light areas planned to go on a
dharna at August Kranti Maidan on August 9 to raise the issue of
police connivance, said Shetty.
(This is the second in the series on prostitution rackets in Mumbai)
Child Prostitution in India
“Child prostitution is the ultimate denial of the rights of the
child.”
(Dr Jon E Rhode, UNICEF representative in India).
India’s 944 580 000 inhabitants live in an area of 3 287 590 km², with
an expectation that the
population will reach 1 billion in May. Almost a quarter of this total
are under 18 years of age.
25% of the population live in urban areas and this is estimated to be
growing annually at just
over 1%. Over population and lack of education in nutrition and health
contribute to the deaths
of around 11 000 children each day. In 1951, 164 million Indians were
living in poverty
compared to 312 million in 1993-94.
There are estimated to be over 900 000 sex workers in India. 30% are
believed to be children.
Recent reports estimate that the number of children involved in
prostitution is increasing at 8
to10% per annum.
About 15% of the prostitutes in Mumbai (Bombay), Delhi, Madras,
Calcutta, Hyderabad and
Bangalore are children. It is estimated that 30%of the prostitutes in
these six cities are under 20
years of age. Nearly half of them became commercial sex workers when
they were minors.
Conservative estimates state that around 300 000 children in India are
suffering commercial
sexual abuse, which includes working in pornography.
In one study of 456 sex workers in Mumbai who had been ‘rescued’ by
police in February 1996, a
fifth were under 18 years and two-thirds were under 20. The main
obstacle in the cracking down
on child prostitution for the police is the issue of rehabilitation
and where to place and reintegrate all the children that they rescue.
ROOTS:
The problem of child prostitution in India is more complicated than in
other Third World
countries where it is directly related to sex tourism. In India,
sexual exploitation of children has
its roots in traditional practices, beliefs and gender discrimination.
According to some research, child prostitution is socially acceptable
in some sections of Indian
society through the practice of Devdasi. Young girls are given to the
‘gods’ and they become a
religious prostitute. There are believed to be around 3 300 devdasis
in Belguam area alone.
Devdasi is banned by the Prohibition of Dedication Act of 1982.
Parents or guardians dedicating
their girls are liable to five years in jail and a Rs5 000
(approximately £71) fine.
AGE: According to a madam in Kamatipura, the average age of girls
supplied to the brothels in the last two years has decreased from 14
and 16 years to 10 and 14 years. A girl between 10 and 12 years
fetches the highest price.
AIDS: The fear of HIV/AIDS has increased the demand for virgins and
children. Clients mistakenly
believe that children have fewer chances of contracting the disease.
Similarly there is the myth
that a man can rid himself of sexually transmitted diseases if he
sleeps with a virgin.
Recent Indian Government statistics put the number of people infected
with HIV at 3.5million,
indicating approximately three out of every 100 Indians are now
infected with the virus which
leads to AIDS. Almost 9 out of 10 of those people are below 45 years
old.
TRAFFICKING: About 7,000 sex workers cross over from Nepal into India
every year. 66% of the girls are from families where the annual income
is about Rs5 000. They may be sold by their parents, deceived with
promises of marriage or a lucrative job or kidnapped and sold to
brothel owners. Between 40 – 50% are believed to be under 18, the age
of consent in India, some are as young as 9 or 10 years old.
RURAL ISSUE: Child sex workers are not confined to big cities. A
survey in Bihar revealed that roadside brothels for truck drivers in
the Aurangabad and Sasaram districts offered the services of sex
workers aged between 6 and 18 years.
CASE EXAMPLES
• Meena was married off at 12. Soon after she was taken to Delhi by
her husband, where
she found out that he was a pimp. In the last three years, she has
serviced up to six clients
a night. The major part of her earnings goes to pay rent on the little
room, the rest goes to
her husband.
• Rita was sold at 9 years old. She washed and cooked for a madam in
Delhi for a few
months until a client wanted a virgin. Two years later, she barely
talks to anyone and
spends most of her spare time painting flowers.
• Maya, 10, was taken to Gorakhpur in Uttar Pradesh by her aunt who
was paid Rs 3 000. When she refused to have sex with a client, she was
locked in a room for 2 days, scared with snakes and beaten
unconscious. When she came around she was raped by the client. Maya
has liveds in the red-light area of Mumbai. Her two year old spends
the night in a crèche run by a social service organisation. When he
was only a few months old, she used to drug him and put him under her
working cot.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews
20/09/2010
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Barack Obama at the Newseum
Posted: Sept. 21, 2010
Tax cuts for richest few ‘irresponsible,’ president says
He cites deficit, says business isn’t enemy
BY KATE ANDERSON BROWER and HANS NICHOLS
BLOOMBERG NEWS
President Barack Obama discusses the economy during a gathering hosted
by CNBC on Monday at the Newseum in Washington. The media pool watches
from a holding room. (J. SCOTT APPLEWHITE/Associated Press)
A version of this story appears on page 1C of the Tuesday, Sept. 21,
2010, print edition of the Detroit Free Press.
“I can’t give tax cuts to the top 2% of Americans” and “lower the
deficit at the same time,” the president said on CNBC during an hour-
long discussion on jobs and the economy from the Newseum in
Washington.
To give “tax relief primarily to millionaires and billionaires” would
be “an irresponsible thing for us to do,” Obama said. “Those folks are
least likely to spend it.”
With elections that will decide control of Congress fewer than two
months away, Obama is heading for a confrontation with Republicans,
who are seeking to take control of the House and Senate from Democrats
by making the Nov. 2 vote a referendum on his stewardship of the
world’s largest economy.
The biggest fight may be over tax cuts passed under former President
George W. Bush that are set to expire at the end of the year.
House Republican leader John Boehner of Ohio has proposed extending
tax cuts for everyone for two years.
Obama is challenging congressional Republicans to make only middle-
class tax cuts permanent.
He wants lawmakers to agree on initiatives to spur economic growth and
hiring, and on extending Bush-era tax cuts for individuals making less
than $200,000 a year and couples earning less than $250,000, about 97%
of taxpayers, according to Internal Revenue Service figures.
In the town-hall-style meeting, Obama defended his administration’s
handling of the economic crisis, saying he had made hard, and
sometimes unpopular, choices that were necessary to rescue the
economy.
Asked whether he was vilifying business, Obama responded: “Absolutely
not.”
“Let’s look at the track record here,” he said. When he was
inaugurated, “the economy was on the verge of collapse.”
“Those same businesses now are profitable. The financial markets are
stabilized. We haven’t increased taxes on businesses,” he said.
Geithner and Summers “have done an outstanding job, as has my whole
economic team,” Obama said. He declined to say whether they would
serve for the remainder of his presidency.
On taxes, Obama said taxation levels are at historic lows.
“Our tax rates are lower now than they were under Ronald Reagan,” he
said. “The federal government is probably less intrusive now than it
was 30 years ago.”
Unequal and Un-American
Congress should end the Bush tax cuts
By Ravi N. Mulani
Published: Tuesday, September 21, 2010
If Congress renews the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy this fall, the
only conclusion to draw will be that the super rich have completely
hijacked our political system.
Over the past few decades, inequality has vastly expanded in the
United States. In the last 40 years, the share of total income for the
top one percent of earners has expanded from eight percent to 18
percent. Also, the top 0.1 percent of Americans now earn eight percent
of America’s total income. America’s wealthy and powerful are becoming
richer at a rapid pace, and an extension of former President George W.
Bush’s tax cuts for the rich would only exacerbate this trend, at
almost no benefit to the economy as a whole.
President Bush’s 2001 tax cuts were strongly skewed toward benefiting
the very wealthy. Now, President Barack H. Obama hopes to extend the
tax cuts for the middle class and the poor but to end the tax cuts for
the rich. What, exactly, would be the impact of Obama’s proposal to
end the tax cuts for the richest Americans? Well, the wealthiest
120,000 taxpayers in America would still receive a hefty $61,510 tax
cut under an extension of the middle class tax cuts, but they would
lose out on the whopping extra $310,140 tax cut they would receive if
the Bush tax cuts are extended in full. As a point of comparison,
extending the tax cuts for the richest Americans would have little to
no positive monetary impact for anyone below the 99th income
percentile.
Judging on the merits of personal necessity, there is absolutely no
reason why the top one percent of Americans need staggering amounts of
extra tax relief. Even supporters of the tax cut realize this, which
is why they make the argument that raising such tax cuts would hurt
the economy during these difficult times. Yet tax cuts for the wealthy
are the most inefficient way to stimulate the economy because the rich
are much more likely to save their extra income than to spend or
invest it. While the poor and middle-class, who are usually living
paycheck to paycheck, will most likely spend their additional savings
on necessities, the rich will save almost all of it, doing absolutely
nothing to bolster demand.
In addition, President Obama’s plan would cut the 10-year deficit by
$680 billion, which should be appealing to all of the Republicans
currently refusing to pass any new job-creation legislation because of
stated concerns about the deficit. With the money saved from not
extending these giveaways to the rich, Congress should pass a
temporary stimulus bill that would help the economy for the next few
years and then allow the raised taxes to contribute to deficit
reduction.
The money saved could be used to create an infrastructure bank, expand
food stamps, give aid to the states, or restart the Work Share
program, which pays private companies to keep employers on the
payroll. A program like this would temporarily use these billions of
dollars for productive uses throughout the economy, instead of sending
them to sit in the bank accounts of the extremely rich. After the
economy has recovered, the revenues could go plug the deficit.
The political debate over extending the tax cuts for the wealthy seems
stunningly detached from the economic experience that much of the
country is going through right now, and this is because our political
system has truly been captured by America’s wealthiest citizens. As
the influence of money in politics has increased to an astronomical
degree, a vast majority of Congressmen—and the donors they absolutely
need to stay in power—are from the top income groups. Living in this
bubble where it seems as though many people will suffer from a tax
increase, Congress is very worried about whether America’s top one
percent gets a giant extra break.
Earlier this year, Annie M. Lowrey ’06-’07 wrote a column in the
Washington Post where she hypothesized how the Senate would have been
composed if it actually represented all Americans by income bracket
equally. “Eight senators would have no income…16 would represent
Americans who make less than $10,000” and “the bulk of senators would
work on behalf of the middle class.” Instead, we live in a Senate
where the median level of wealth is $1.06 million, and this is to say
nothing of donors that often drive political decisions.
This staggering inequality between Congressmen and the people they
represent is reflected in debates about everything ranging from tax
cuts to universal healthcare and financial regulation. It has molded
an unequal society where the wealthy have a stranglehold over the
lawmaking process and where the most heated legislative debate about
America’s worst employment crisis in 70 years centers on the tax rate
for the top one percent. Our unequal society has now reached an
economic crisis point, with America’s poor and middle classes failing
to make ends meet. On this issue, Congressmen must put aside their
self-interest and restart inclusive economic growth.
Whether they do will signify whether they represent all Americans or
just their club of very rich ones.
Ravi N. Mulani ’12 is an applied math concentrator in Winthrop House.
His column appears on alternate Tuesdays.
Ezra Klein
Economic and Domestic Policy, and lots of it
Tax cuts for the middle-class are also tax cuts for the rich
I think people are actually quite confused about how the tax cuts
work. So here’s Annie Lowrey*:
Pop quiz. Say you make a steady $250,001, every year. How many dollars
of additional income tax will you pay if the Obama administration’s
tax plan goes through? A thousand dollars? A few thousand? Nope. Three
cents.
Here’s how it works. Your taxes below $250,000 remain the same. And on
that excess $1, your income tax rate increases from 33 percent to 36
percent. For most earners making between $250,000 and $500,000 a year,
the Obama plan would increase income tax liability by just a few
hundred dollars — an average of $600, according to the Center for
Economic and Policy Research’s Dean Baker.
Annie is comparing the Bush tax cuts to the Obama tax cuts. But if you
compare the Obama tax cuts to a world without either set of tax cuts,
you learn something interesting: The rich are still getting a big tax
cut.
Obama’s “tax cuts for the middle class” aren’t actually tax cuts for
the middle class. They’re tax cuts on all family income up to
$250,000. So if you make $300,000 a year, you’re getting a tax cut on
$250,000. That’s a serious tax cut! That’s why the graphs showing how
different taxpayers make out under the Obama and Bush tax plans all
show a tax cut for the rich under Obama’s plan:
Now, the tax cut for the rich is obviously much larger under Bush’s
plan, and rich people would prefer a big tax cut to a modest tax cut.
But that doesn’t change the facts of the situation: Under Obama’s tax
plan, everyone gets a tax cut, including families making more than
$250,000 a year.
By Ezra Klein | September 20, 2010; 12:36 PM ET
Categories: Taxes
Robert Reich.Former Secretary of Labor; Professor at Berkeley; Author,
‘Aftershock: The Next Economy and America’s Future’
Posted: September 19, 2010 06:17 PM
The Defining Issue: Who Should Get the Tax Cut — The Rich or Everyone
Else?
36960 views
Comments 1,019
Who deserves a tax cut more: the top 2 percent — whose wages and
benefits are higher than ever, and among whose ranks are the CEOs and
Wall Street mavens whose antics have sliced jobs and wages and nearly
destroyed the American economy — or the rest of us?
Not a bad issue for Democrats to run on this fall, or in 2012.
Republicans are hell bent on demanding an extension of the Bush tax
cut for their patrons at the top, or else they’ll pull the plug on tax
cuts for the middle class. This is a gift for the Democrats.
But before this can be a defining election issue in the midterms,
Democrats have to bring it to a vote. And they’ve got to do it in the
next few weeks, not wait until a lame-duck session after Election Day.
Plus, they have to stick together (Ben Nelson, are you hearing me?
House blue-dogs, do you read me? Peter Orszag, will you get some
sense?)
Not only is this smart politics. It’s smart economics.
The rich spend a far smaller portion of their money than anyone else
because, hey, they’re rich. That means continuing the Bush tax cut for
them wouldn’t stimulate much demand or create many jobs.
But it would blow a giant hole in the budget — $36 billion next year,
$700 billion over ten years. Millionaire households would get a
windfall of $31 billion next year alone.
And the Republican charge that restoring the Clinton tax rates for the
rich would hurt the economy — because it would reduce the “incentives”
of the rich (including the richest small business owners) to create
jobs — is ludicrous.
Under Bill Clinton and his tax rates, the economy roared. It created
22 million jobs.
By contrast, during George Bush’s 8 years, commencing with his big
2001 tax cut, the economy created only 8 million jobs. And as the new
Census data show, nothing trickled down. In fact, the middle class
families did far worse after the Bush tax cut. Between 2001 and 2007 —
even before we were plunged into the Great Recession — the median wage
dropped.
It’s an issue that could also be used to expose the giant chasm that’s
opened between the rich and everyone else — aided and abetted by
Republican policies. As I’ve noted before, in the late 1970s, the top
1 percent got 9 percent of total national income. By 2007, the top 1
percent got almost a quarter of total national income.
These figures don’t even count in taxes. The $1.3 trillion Bush tax
cut of 2001 was a huge windfall for people earning over $500,000 a
year. They got about 40 percent of its benefits. The Bush tax cut of
2003 was even better for high rollers. Those with net incomes of about
$1 million got an average tax cut of $90,000 a year. Yet taxes on the
typical middle-income family dropped just $217. Many lower-income
families, who still paid payroll taxes, got nothing back at all.
And, again, nothing trickled down.
As I’ve emphasized, the U.S. economy has suffered mightily from the
middle class’s lack of purchasing power, while most of the economic
gains have gone to the top. (The crisis was masked for years by women
moving into paid work, everyone working longer hours, and, more
recently, the middle class going into deep debt — but all those coping
mechanisms are now exhausted.) The great challenge ahead is to widen
the circle of prosperity so the middle class once again has the
capacity to keep the economy going.
In other words, this is the right issue. It’s the right time. It
allows Democrats to explain what the Bush tax cuts really did, why
supply-side economics is bogus, and the economic challenge ahead.
Even if Democrats feel they have to respond to the Republican charge
that taxes shouldn’t be raised on anyone when the employment rate is
9.6 percent, they have a powerful fallback: Extend the Bush tax cuts
for everyone through 2011, then end them for the rich while making
them permanent for the middle class.
Get it, Democrats? Please don’t blow it this time.
This post originally appeared at robertreich.org
Liddick: This is no time for tax hikes
by Morgan LiddickShare on Facebook Email Print Comment Recommend
Copyright 2010 Summit Daily News. All rights reserved. This material
may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Summit
Daily News September, 20 2010 2:56 pm
Liddick: This is no time for tax hikes
Let’s talk Federal income taxes. After all, they’re just as inevitable
as death, unless you’re among the 44percent of Americans who don’t pay
a penny of ‘em …
There’s been a lot of heat lately about the “Bush Tax Cuts” and
whether they should be repealed, retained, or sliced-and-diced in a
way that would make Dr. Frankenstein proud. Everyone ought to step
back and take a breath.
First, we need to get the definitions right. This is not about “tax
cuts” or “tax increases.” It is about increases or cuts to marginal
tax rates on incomes and capital gains; exemptions, exclusions and
credits. It’s not really simple, but expedience demands that it be
made so, if Democrats are to couple it to class envy to serve a
political end. “Tax cuts for the rich” has such a nice sans-culottes
feel, no?
Who responds to this language? Those who reply to suggestions that
raising taxes on small businesses might stunt our still-anemic
economic recovery with screeds like “Tax the (hell) out of the rich. I
mean take it all from them so that they don’t have time to think —
let’s call it the flash-tax! Then let them work their big asses off to
supply us with more …” before lapsing into profanity. Yes, that’s a
real comment.
What is forgotten is that poor people don’t employ anyone, and middle
class folks rarely do. We are going to have to go up the income scale
to find those able to bring the unemployment rate down, and giving
them the “Or else, and maybe even then” treatment is not likely to
improve their mood. Money is fungible. If it doesn’t like its
surroundings it can pack its bags for India faster than Baba Ram Das
in search of the lost Ganesh.
Second, what the president proposes is not a “tax cut” for anyone. It
is a plan to put substantial tax increases on the back burner — for
now. Perhaps this bit of verbal trickery can be forgiven a government
that calls a reduction in the rate of spending growth a “spending cut”
— and no, they aren’t the first to use this chicanery — but it’s still
reprehensible. Bottom line: your tax bill will not go down.
While we’re on that subject, a preview of coming attractions. If the
president persists in pursuing his class warfare option in the teeth
of growing opposition even from his own party, among the results will
be: an increase in the lowest tax rate, from 10 to 15 percent. The per-
child standard deduction will be cut in half. The standard deduction
for married couples will drop. Capital gains rates will rise and if
you dare die, the taxman will appear with the undertaker.
In this “back to the future” tax regime, an average family of four
with an income of $50,000 will pay $2,900 more in taxes, according to
the accounting firm of Deloite Tax LLP. If the family makes $100,000,
the bill jumps to $4,500. Can you afford this sort of hit at the
moment? That latter figure will buy a lot of food, pay some rent or —
if Xcel and the Green Energy Fanatics have their way, will almost
cover an annual power bill.
Think about what a small business with an income of $500,000 will do,
faced with a tax increase of $10,900. Double the income to a million
dollars and the increase rises to $53,200. In some industries, that’s
two salaries. Nicely done.
Third, yes, the deficit is a problem and there are going to have to be
increases in parts of the tax code to address it. More importantly,
there are going to have to be profound changes in expenditures —
including entitlement programs. Yes, including Social Security. If we
continue to fund handouts like General Motors funded union retirement
plans, we’re going to end up in the same place. And no, that doesn’t
mean bailed out. I don’t think China will be as sappy or craven as our
politicians when faced by such a risky investment.
Senator Bennet, that includes you. The use of necessary talk about
Social Security reform as a spook-the-elders ploy against Ken Buck is
a prime example of why the mess we’re in keeps getting worse. You’re
part of the problem.
Then there are the massive amounts given away in grants, no-interest
loans and other emoluments to politically connected organizations.
Individually these may be small, but in the immortal words of Senator
Everett Dirksen, “A million here and a million there, and pretty soon
you’re talking real money…”
Money we can ill afford to confiscate from those whose ideas,
initiative and labor create it, only to fritter it away. $275,000 to
the Restaurant Opportunities Center United for “ergonomic guidelines
for the restaurant industry?”
Really?
Summit County resident Morgan Liddick pens a Tuesday column. E-mail
him at mcli...@hotmail.com.
Let them eat cake
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the phrase commonly misattributed to Marie
Antoinette. For other uses, see Let them eat cake (disambiguation).
Still life with Brioche, Jean-Baptiste Siméon Chardin, 1763
“Let them eat cake” is the traditional translation of the French
phrase “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche“, supposedly spoken by a French
princess upon learning that the peasants had no bread. As brioche is a
luxury bread enriched with eggs and butter, it would reflect the
princess’s obliviousness to the nature of a famine.
Although commonly attributed to Queen Marie Antoinette,[1] there is no
record of these words ever having been uttered by her; they first
appear in Jean-Jacques Rousseau‘s Confessions, his putative
autobiographical work (completed in 1769, when Marie Antoinette was
13), where he wrote the following in Book 6:
Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on
disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : Qu’ils
mangent de la brioche.
Finally I recalled the last resort of a great princess who was told
that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: “Let them eat
brioche.”
Rousseau does not name the “great princess” and there is speculation
that he invented the anecdote, which has no other sources.[2]
In Chinese culture, there is a variation of this story that involves
rice and meat, instead of bread and cake.[3]
Attribution
The quotation, as attributed to Marie Antoinette, was claimed to have
been uttered during one of the famines that occurred in France during
the reign of her husband Louis XVI. Upon being alerted that the people
were suffering due to widespread bread shortages, the Queen is said to
have replied, “Then let them eat brioche.”[4] Although the phrase was
seldom cited by opponents of the monarchy at the time of the French
Revolution, it did acquire great symbolic importance in subsequent
histories when pro-revolutionary historians sought to demonstrate the
obliviousness and selfishness of the French upper-classes at that
time. As one biographer of the Queen notes, it was a particularly
useful phrase to cite because “the staple food of the French peasantry
and the working class was bread, absorbing 50 per cent of their
income, as opposed to 5 per cent on fuel; the whole topic of bread was
therefore the result of obsessional national interest.”[5]
However, there is no evidence that Queen Marie-Antoinette ever uttered
this phrase and substantial evidence that she did not. Objections to
the legend of Marie-Antoinette and the cake/brioche centre on
arguments concerning the real queen’s personality, internal evidence
from members of the French royal family, the date of the saying’s
origin and its frequent citation in works pre-dating Marie-
Antoinette’s life. For example, the Queen’s best-selling English-
language biographer, Lady Antonia Fraser, wrote in 2002:
“[Let them eat cake] was said 100 years before her by Marie-Thérèse,
the wife of Louis XIV. It was a callous and ignorant statement and
she, Marie Antoinette, was neither.”[6]
Author Vincent Cronin also agrees that Marie-Thérese made the
statement, and not Marie Antoinette.[7]
However this attribution also has little credibility for Fraser cites
as justification for the alternative attribution to the wife of Louis
XIV the memoirs of Louis XVIII, who was only fourteen when Rousseau’s
Confessions were written and whose own memoirs were published much
later. He does not mention Marie-Antoinette in his account, but states
that the saying was an old legend, and that within the family it was
always believed that the saying belonged to the Spanish princess who
married Louis XIV in the 1660s. Thus Louis XVIII is as likely as
others to have had his recollection affected by the quick spreading
and distorting of Rousseau’s original remark.
As Fraser points out in her biography, Marie-Antoinette was a generous
patroness of charity and moved by the plight of the poor when it was
brought to her attention, thus making the statement out-of-character
for her.[8] This, coupled with the aforementioned evidence that the
royal family of France had always believed the saying had originated a
century before makes it almost impossible that Marie-Antoinette ever
said this.
A second point is that there were no actual famines during the reign
of King Louis XVI and only two moments of serious bread shortages,
which occurred, first, in April-May 1775, a few weeks before the
king’s coronation (11 June 1775), and again in 1788, the year before
the French Revolution. The 1775 shortages led to a series of riots,
known as the Flour War, la guerre des farines, name given at the time
of their occurrence, that took place in the northern, eastern and
western parts of France. Letters from Marie-Antoinette to her family
in Austria at this time reveal an attitude totally different to the
Let them eat cake mentality:-
“It is quite certain that in seeing the people who treat us so well
despite their own misfortune, we are more obliged than ever to work
hard for their happiness. The King seems to understand this truth.”[9]
There is a further problem with the dates surrounding the attribution,
in that Marie-Antoinette was not only too young but not even in France
when it was first published. Rousseau’s Confessions were finished in
1769 and, as Marie Antoinette arrived at Versailles from Austria in
1770, at the age of fourteen, the young Austrian Archduchess, unknown
to him at the time of publication of his work, could not be the “great
princess” mentioned by Rousseau.[10] Furthermore, Rousseau had
mentioned the phrase in a letter in 1737, long before he included it
in his Confessions, and a full eighteen years before Marie-Antoinette
had even been born.[citation needed]
One factor that is important to understand when studying how this
phrase came to be attributed to Marie Antoinette is the increasing
unpopularity of the Queen in the final years before the outbreak of
the French Revolution. During her marriage to Louis XVI, her perceived
frivolousness and her very real extravagance were often cited as
factors that only worsened France’s dire financial straits.[11] Her
Austrian birth and femininity were also a major factor in a country
where xenophobia and chauvinism still played major parts in national
politics.[12] In fact, many anti-monarchists were so convinced (albeit
incorrectly) that it was Marie Antoinette who had single-handedly
ruined France’s finances that they nicknamed her Madame Déficit.[13]
In addition, anti-royalists libellists printed stories and articles
that attacked the royal family and their courtiers with exaggerations,
fictitious events and outright lies. Therefore, with such strong
sentiments of dissatisfaction and anger towards the king and queen, it
is quite possible that a discontented individual fabricated the
scenario and put the words in the mouth of Marie Antoinette.
Finally, another theory is that, since the time of Louis XIV, in
popular myth, the phrase had been attributed to several princesses of
the French royal family, and that the legend “stuck” on Marie-
Antoinette because she was, in effect, the last “great princess” of
Versailles. The myth had, for example, been attributed to two of Louis
XV‘s daughters, Madame Sophie and Madame Victoire.
References
1.^ Fraser, Antonia (Lady), Marie Antoinette: The Journey, p.xviii,
160; Lever, Évelyne, Marie-Antoinette: The Last Queen of France, pp.
63-65; Lanser, Susan S., article Eating Cake: The (Ab)uses of Marie-
Antoinette, published in Marie-Antoinette: Writings on the Body of a
Queen, (ed. Dena Goodman) , pp. 273-290.
2.^ Johnson, Paul, Intellectuals, Harper & Row, 1988, p14f. ISBN
0-06-016050-0
3.^ http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxletthe.html
4.^ Fraser, p.135.
5.^ Lady Antonia Fraser, Marie Antoinette: The Journey, p. 124n
6.^ http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/dubiousquotes/a/antoinette.htm
7.^ Vincent Cronin on page 13 in his biography Louis and Antoinette,
confirms that Marie-Thérèse did utter the words
8.^ Fraser, Marie Antoinette, pp. 284-5
9.^ Lettres de Marie-Antoinette, volume 1, p. 91
10.^ http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/227600.html
11.^ Fraser, pp. 473-474.
12.^ This historical phenomenon is fully explored in Eroticism and the
Body Politic: The Family Romance of the French Revolution by Lynn Hunt
and The Wicked Queen: The Origins of the Myth of Marie-Antoinette by
Professor Chantal Thomas.
13.^ Fraser, pp. 254-255.
Bibliography
•Barker, Nancy N., Let Them Eat Cake: The Mythical Marie Antoinette
and the French Revolution, Historian, Summer 1993, 55:4:709.
•Campion-Vincent, Véronique & Shojaei Kawan, Christine, Marie-
Antoinette et son célèbre dire : deux scénographies et deux siècles de
désordres, trois niveaux de communication et trois modes accusatoires,
Annales historiques de la Révolution française, 2002, p. 327 full
text.
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake“
Categories: Quotations
•This page was last modified on 9 September 2010 at 06:13.
…and I am Sid Harth
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21/09/2010
« Recession is Dead, Long Live Recession
and/or www.mantra.com/jai
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/21/google-oops-government-did-it/
New online Google tool shows where services blocked
By Chris Lefkow (AFP) – 1 hour ago
WASHINGTON — Google released a new online tool on Tuesday that shows
where the Internet giant’s services and products such as YouTube are
being blocked around the world.
“We believe that this kind of transparency can be a deterrent to
censorship,” David Drummond, Google’s chief legal officer, said.
“When Google’s services are blocked or filtered, we can’t serve our
users effectively,” Drummond said in a blog post. “That’s why we act
every day to maximize free expression and access to information.”
He said the new tool, which is called “Transparency Report” and
located at google.com/transparencyreport, will “allow people to see
where governments are demanding that we remove content and where
Google services are being blocked.”
Drummond said it will help show whether traffic disruptions in
services and products such as Google Search, Google Earth, Google
Maps, Google News and YouTube “are related to mechanical outages or
are government-induced.”
“By showing outages, the traffic graphs visualize disruptions in the
free flow of information, whether it’s a government blocking
information or a cable being cut,” he said.
The Transparency Report shows that YouTube has been blocked in Iran,
for example, since June 12, 2009 following the country’s disputed
presidential election.
Google already maintains such a tool for its services and products in
China, which has blocked YouTube since March 2009 and criticized the
Mountain View, California-based company over its refusal to censor Web
search results.
Drummond said the separate tool, the “Mainland China service
availability chart,” is being shut down and China will now be
integrated into the list of countries whose traffic is being monitored
using the Transparency Report.
Google on Tuesday also updated another online tool, “Government
Requests,” that shows how often governments around the world ask the
search giant for information about users or ask that it take down or
censor content.
In launching the interactive online map in April, Google said it would
be updated in six-month increments.
The latest period covers January-June 2010 and now includes figures on
the percentage of demands that Google has complied with — if not
details of the actual requests.
The United States, for example, tops the list with 4,287 requests for
data and 128 removal requests. Google said 82.8 percent of the removal
requests had been “fully or partially complied with.”
There were 2,435 data requests from Brazil and 398 removal requests,
67.6 percent of which were fully or partially complied with. Google
said most had to do with the Google-owned social network Orkut, which
is popular in Brazil.
India was next with 1,430 data requests and 30 removal requests, 53.3
percent of which were fully or partially complied with.
Google also noted that China is not listed among the countries on the
Government Requests page.
“Chinese officials consider censorship demands as state secrets, so we
cannot disclose that information at this time,” Google said.
Copyright © 2010 AFP. All rights reserved.
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Transparency Report: Government Requests
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receive requests from government agencies around the world to remove
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Transparency Report: Government Requests
http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/governmentrequests/
Like other technology and communications companies, we regularly
receive requests from government agencies around the world to remove
content from our services, or provide information about users of our
services and products. This map shows the number of requests that we
received in six-month blocks with certain limitations.
We’re still learning the best way to collect and present this
information. We’ll continue to improve this tool and fine-tune the
types of data we display.
Country Data Removal
Argentina 98 42
Armenia <10
Australia 155 17
Austria <10
Belgium 67 <10
Brazil 3663 291
Cambodia <10
Canada 41 16
Chile 110
China ?
Colombia <10
Estonia <10
Finland <10
France 846 <10
Germany 458 188
India 1061 142
Indonesia <10
Ireland <10
Israel 30 <10
Italy 550 57
Japan 44 <10
Liechtenstein <10
Lithuania <10
Macedonia [FYROM] <10
Malaysia <10
Malta <10
Mexico <10
Netherlands 67 <10
New Zealand <10
Norway <10
Pakistan <10
Peru <10
Poland 86
Portugal 45
Russia <10
Singapore 62 <10
Slovenia <10
South Korea 44 64
Spain 324 32
Sweden <10
Switzerland 42 <10
Taiwan <10
Thailand <10
Turkey <10
United Kingdom 1166 59
United States 3580 123
◄ July 2009 to December 2009
Country Data Removal
Argentina 134 12
Australia 200 14
Austria 2
Belgium 71 <10
Brazil 2435 398
Canada <10
Chile 115
China ?
Cyprus <10
France 1017 25
Germany 668 124
Greece <10
Hong Kong 50 <10
India 1430 30
Israel 30 4
Italy 651 69
Japan 56 7
Kazakhstan <10
Libya 149
Macedonia [FYROM] <10
[FYROM] <10
Malta <10
Mexico <10
Netherlands <10
New Zealand <10
Norway <10
Portugal 73 <10
Puerto Rico <10
Russia <10
Singapore 106
Solomon Islands <10
Singapore 106
Solomon Islands <10
South Korea 170 38
Spain 372 16
Sweden <10
Switzerland 35 5
Taiwan 130 11
Turkey 51 5
United Kingdom 1343 48
United States 4287 128
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
Censorship, Free Speech, Google, Government Restrictions
21/09/2010
« Christine, Oops, Wicked Witch did it
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http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/22/nobel-laureate-president-betrayed/
US Troops in Afghanistan
Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan
for Afghan war
Gallery
Photo timeline: The war in Afghanistan
The war in Afghanistan began on Oct. 7, 2001, as the U.S. military
launched an operation in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on
the U.S. The war continues today.
» LAUNCH PHOTO GALLERY
By Steve Luxenberg
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 22, 2010; 12:11 AM
President Obama urgently looked for a way out of the war in
Afghanistan last year, repeatedly pressing his top military advisers
for an exit plan that they never gave him, according to secret meeting
notes and documents cited in a new book by journalist Bob Woodward.
This Story
Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan
for Afghan war
Photo timeline: The war in Afghanistan
Frustrated with his military commanders for consistently offering only
options that required significantly more troops, Obama finally crafted
his own strategy, dictating a classified six-page “terms sheet” that
sought to limit U.S. involvement, Woodward reports in “Obama’s Wars,”
to be released on Monday.
According to Woodward’s meeting-by-meeting, memo-by-memo account of
the 2009 Afghan strategy review, the president avoided talk of victory
as he described his objectives.
“This needs to be a plan about how we’re going to hand it off and get
out of Afghanistan,” Obama is quoted as telling White House aides as
he laid out his reasons for adding 30,000 troops in a short-term
escalation. “Everything we’re doing has to be focused on how we’re
going to get to the point where we can reduce our footprint. It’s in
our national security interest. There cannot be any wiggle room.”
Obama rejected the military’s request for 40,000 troops as part of an
expansive mission that had no foreseeable end. “I’m not doing 10
years,” he told Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates and Secretary of
State Hillary Rodham Clinton at a meeting on Oct. 26, 2009. “I’m not
doing long-term nation-building. I am not spending a trillion
dollars.”
Woodward’s book portrays Obama and the White House as barraged by
warnings about the threat of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil and
confronted with the difficulty in preventing them. During an interview
with Woodward in July, the president said, “We can absorb a terrorist
attack. We’ll do everything we can to prevent it, but even a 9/11,
even the biggest attack ever . . . we absorbed it and we are
stronger.”
But most of the book centers on the strategy review, and the
dissension, distrust and infighting that consumed Obama’s national
security team as it was locked in a fierce and emotional struggle over
the direction, goals, timetable, troop levels and the chances of
success for a war that is almost certain to be one of the defining
events of this presidency.
Obama is shown at odds with his uniformed military commanders,
particularly Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, and Gen. David H. Petraeus, head of U.S. Central Command during
the 2009 strategy review and now the top U.S. and NATO commander in
Afghanistan.
Woodward reveals their conflicts through detailed accounts of two
dozen closed-door secret strategy sessions and nearly 40 private
conversations between Obama and Cabinet officers, key aides and
intelligence officials.
Tensions often turned personal. National security adviser James L.
Jones privately referred to Obama’s political aides as “the water
bugs,” the “Politburo,” the “Mafia,” or the “campaign set.” Petraeus,
who felt shut out by the new administration, told an aide that he
considered the president’s senior adviser David Axelrod to be “a
complete spin doctor.”
During a flight in May, after a glass of wine, Petraeus told his own
staffers that the administration was “[expletive] with the wrong guy.”
Gates was tempted to walk out of an Oval Office meeting after being
offended by comments made by deputy national security adviser Thomas
E. Donilon about a general not named in the book.
Suspicion lingered among some from the 2008 presidential campaign as
well. When Obama floated the idea of naming Clinton to a high-profile
post, Axelrod asked him, “How could you trust Hillary?”
‘Can’t afford any mistakes’
“Obama’s Wars” marks the 16th book by Woodward, 67, a Washington Post
associate editor. Woodward’s reporting with Carl Bernstein on the
Watergate coverup in the early 1970s led to their bestselling book
“All the President’s Men.”
Among the book’s other disclosures:
– Obama told Woodward in the July interview that he didn’t think about
the Afghan war in the “classic” terms of the United States winning or
losing. “I think about it more in terms of: Do you successfully
prosecute a strategy that results in the country being stronger rather
than weaker at the end?” he said.
– The CIA created, controls and pays for a clandestine 3,000-man
paramilitary army of local Afghans, known as Counterterrorism Pursuit
Teams. Woodward describes these teams as elite, well-trained units
that conduct highly sensitive covert operations into Pakistan as part
of a stepped-up campaign against al-Qaeda and Afghan Taliban havens
there.
– Obama has kept in place or expanded 14 intelligence orders, known as
findings, issued by his predecessor, George W. Bush. The orders
provide the legal basis for the CIA’s worldwide covert operations.
– A new capability developed by the National Security Agency has
dramatically increased the speed at which intercepted communications
can be turned around into useful information for intelligence analysts
and covert operators. “They talk, we listen. They move, we observe.
Given the opportunity, we react operationally,” then-Director of
National Intelligence Mike McConnell explained to Obama at a briefing
two days after he was elected president.
– A classified exercise in May showed that the government was woefully
unprepared to deal with a nuclear terrorist attack in the United
States. The scenario involved the detonation of a small, crude nuclear
weapon in Indianapolis and the simultaneous threat of a second blast
in Los Angeles. Obama, in the interview with Woodward, called a
nuclear attack here “a potential game changer.” He said: “When I go
down the list of things I have to worry about all the time, that is at
the top, because that’s one where you can’t afford any mistakes.”
– Afghan President Hamid Karzai was diagnosed as manic depressive,
according to U.S. intelligence reports. “He’s on his meds, he’s off
his meds,” Woodward quotes U.S. Ambassador Karl W. Eikenberry as
saying.
‘The cancer is in Pakistan’
Obama campaigned on a promise to extract U.S. forces from Iraq and
focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan, which he described as the greater
threat to American security. At McConnell’s top-secret briefing for
Obama, the intelligence chief told the president-elect that Pakistan
is a dishonest partner, unwilling or unable to stop elements of the
Pakistani intelligence service from giving clandestine aid, weapons
and money to the Afghan Taliban, Woodward writes.
By the end of the 2009 strategy review, Woodward reports, Obama
concluded that no mission in Afghanistan could be successful without
attacking the al-Qaeda and Afghan Taliban havens operating with
impunity in Pakistan’s remote tribal regions.
“We need to make clear to people that the cancer is in Pakistan,”
Obama is quoted as saying at an Oval Office meeting on Nov. 25, 2009.
Creating a more secure Afghanistan is imperative, the president said,
“so the cancer doesn’t spread” there.
The war in Iraq draws no attention in the book, except as a reference
point for considering and developing a new Afghanistan strategy. The
book’s title, “Obama’s Wars,” appears to refer to the conflict in
Afghanistan and the conflicts among the president’s national security
team.
An older war – the Vietnam conflict – does figure prominently in the
minds of Obama and his advisers. When Vice President Biden rushed to
the White House on a Sunday morning to make one last appeal for a
narrowly defined mission, he warned Obama that a major escalation
would mean “we’re locked into Vietnam.”
Obama kept asking for “an exit plan” to go along with any further
troop commitment, and is shown growing increasingly frustrated with
the military hierarchy for not providing one. At one strategy session,
the president waved a memo from the Office of Management and Budget,
which put a price tag of $889 billion over 10 years on the military’s
open-ended approach.
In the end, Obama essentially designed his own strategy for the 30,000
troops, which some aides considered a compromise between the military
command’s request for 40,000 and Biden’s relentless efforts to limit
the escalation to 20,000 as part of a “hybrid option” that he had
developed with Gen. James E. Cartwright, the vice chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff.
In a dramatic scene at the White House on Sunday, Nov. 29, 2009, Obama
summoned the national security team to outline his decision and
distribute his six-page terms sheet. He went around the room, one by
one, asking each participant whether he or she had any objections – to
“say so now,” Woodward reports.
The document – a copy of which is reprinted in the book – took the
unusual step of stating, along with the strategy’s objectives, what
the military was not supposed to do. The president went into detail,
according to Woodward, to make sure that the military wouldn’t attempt
to expand the mission.
After Obama informed the military of his decision, Woodward writes,
the Pentagon kept trying to reopen the decision, peppering the White
House with new questions. Obama, in exasperation, reacted by asking,
“Why do we keep having these meetings?”
Along with Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the top U.S. commander in
Afghanistan at the time, they kept pushing for their 40,000-troop
option as part of a broad counterinsurgency plan along the lines of
what Petraeus had developed for Iraq.
The president is quoted as telling Mullen, Petraeus and Gates: “In
2010, we will not be having a conversation about how to do more. I
will not want to hear, ‘We’re doing fine, Mr. President, but we’d be
better if we just do more.’ We’re not going to be having a
conversation about how to change [the mission] . . . unless we’re
talking about how to draw down faster than anticipated in 2011.”
Petraeus took Obama’s decision as a personal repudiation, Woodward
writes. Petraeus continued to believe that a “protect-the-Afghan-
people” counterinsurgency was the best plan. When the president tapped
Petraeus this year to replace McChrystal as the head of U.S. and NATO
forces in Afghanistan, Petraeus found himself in charge of making
Obama’s more limited strategy a success.
Woodward quotes Petraeus as saying, “You have to recognize also that I
don’t think you win this war. I think you keep fighting. It’s a little
bit like Iraq, actually. . . . Yes, there has been enormous progress
in Iraq. But there are still horrific attacks in Iraq, and you have to
stay vigilant. You have to stay after it. This is the kind of fight
we’re in for the rest of our lives and probably our kids’ lives.”
Your Comments On…
Bob Woodward book details Obama battles with advisers over exit plan
for Afghan war
President Obama urgently looked for a way out of the war in
Afghanistan last year, repeatedly pressing his top military advisers
for an exit plan that they never gave him, according to secret meeting
notes and documents cited in a new book by journalist Bob Woodward.
- By Steve Luxenberg
Comments
bakulaji wrote:
Nobel Laureate President Betrayed
Blessed are those who seek Peace.
Lot has been said and lot will be spoken. Military-Industrial Complex
of America wants more wars, more armed conflicts, more deaths and
destructions. It pays.
Americans were fed up of Vietnam. They were fed up of Iraq wars and
they, certainly, are fed up of this new, oops, nine year old AfPak
war.
It is high time to stop warmongering in foreign lands. You cannot kill
a bedbug, oops, Osama Ben Laden, by throwing all that American might
at his hiding place.
Today Americans want Osama’s head on a silver platter, tomorrow, any
and all of Africa’s tinpot dictators in whose territory new threat of
Muslim terrorism’s newest Osama is being born.
Al Shabaab is worse than silly, unorganized Taliban. Taliban foot
soldiers are getting old. Al Shabaab’s foot soldiers are in their
twenties.
Ultrasensitivity to the real and imagined terrorists, both in America
and in several and sundry foreign lands, is stupid. If democracy is
good for developed countries like America, it need not necessarily
mean it is good for Iraq and Afghanistan, oops, I forgot about
Pakistan.
They cannot be the candidates for any kind of democracy. What they
deserve is an autocracy and military dictatorship. History has shown
the proof that Muslim world has no concept of democracy.
Get out of Afghanistan and Iraq. Faster is better.
…and I am Sid Harth
9/22/2010 2:21:57 AM
cisconwa wrote:
Why would anyone trust Woodward’s musings? Woodward’s lack of utter
candor on the obvious disinformation campaign for invading Iraq is
glaringly missing from his book on Bush so I would expect this book to
be similar whitewash effort—one only has to compare the current
dichotomy on Afghanistan between General Petraus and his boss,
President Obama’s announcements.
9/22/2010 2:17:29 AM
309723 wrote:
That makes me fill all safe and cozy!
9/22/2010 2:15:28 AM
frantaylor wrote:
Way too many armchair quarterbacks here!
It appears that few are capable of realizing that this is a literary
work.
Mr. Obama inherited a difficult situation, he is to be commended for
understanding that the old-fashioned concept of “victory” does not
apply, the very concept of “crushing” the enemy is a hopeless fantasy.
This situation is more akin to figuring out how to extricate your hand
from the tractor machinery while losing as few fingers as possible.
9/22/2010 2:01:24 AM
dschoen1 wrote:
TabLUnoLCSWfromUtah wrote:
It appears that the military failed to carry out order dictated by the
President of the United States. It sounds like a treasonable act on
the part of the military to me.
DADT is an order dictated by the President of the United States.
Do you want to try all the troops that violated that direct lawful
order tried for treason?
The Clinton Administration on December 21, 1993 issued Defense
Directive 1304.26, which directed that military applicants were not to
be asked about their sexual orientation. This is the policy now known
as “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”.
BTW where in this article did you get the idea Obama gave a direct
lawful order and that order was violated?
Do you even know what a “lawful order” is?
9/22/2010 1:39:37 AM
Recommend (1)
Nymous wrote:
I really wish we could leave. We can’t though, our enemies will only
use that as an opportunity to build strength and attack us again.
Our only option is to crush them completely.
I have spent a lot of time studying this problem, & my research has
included some of the best & most well educated thinkers in the world.
They’re people who fight war to attempt to end conflicts with the
least harm possible.
What I’ve learned is that there are no easy answers. It may end up
that the flooding in Pakistan, and the world’s indifference to the
plight of the people there because of their support of terrorists will
do more to end the Taliban’s insurgency than many other things people
might do, or not. These problems are just that hard.
Winning these types of wars is not easy however. It never has been,
and all the wiz-bang technology in the world won’t change that.
9/22/2010 1:36:04 AM
costaricanet wrote:
Hogsmile,
You are correct that we are strong enough to PREVENT and absorb these
attacks and you can that Joe Biden and Company for keeping the “TRUE
TERRORIST’ in check.
9/22/2010 1:31:54 AM
twimo2003 wrote:
Clearly President Obama has studied the slow implosion of the Roman
Empire, the defeat of the British Empire and the collapse of the
Soviet Union and he desperately try to avoid the same mistake Brits
and Russians made in Afghanistan.
President Obama must not allow war mongering generals walk all over
him.
9/22/2010 1:28:57 AM
hogsmile wrote:
The President is absolutely right: we are strong enough to absorb
another terrorist attack — even many. It won’t be pleasant, but we are
strong enough to absorb it and endure its aftermath — any blow or
series of blows and continue on.
What we aren’t strong enough to do is simply spend, spend, spend
trillions and trillions of (mostly borrowed) dollars to no productive
purpose. Conservatives often rail against the “borrow and spend”
political culture that has taken hold in Washington since the Great
Depression, but when it comes to wasting our precious resources in
Afghanistan they’ve developed a blind spot.
If you want a society stunted by high unemployment, a stagnant
economy, rising levels of poverty caused by the ruination of the
middle class, civil strife, a rise in political extremism and a
dangerous — even unstable — military (army especially), fight
interminable wars. The author of that wisdom isn’t an anti-war pundit
but a Chinese general named Sun Tzu, who died 3,500 years ago.
The enemy’s leaders, who are not idiots, obviously understand Sun Tzu.
They developed an effective strategy to defeat us. It isn’t to meet
and defeat our forces in a great decisive battle. Rather, create a
trap that slowly bleeds and exhausts us, a trap that harnesses
distance, expense, and the sheer impossibility of the mission itself
to do their work for them. This strategy actually has a name. It’s
called a “Fabian Strategy”, after Quintus Fabius Maximus, a Roman
general who employed it, successfully, against the Carthaginian
general Hannibal and his army after it had destroyed no fewer than
three Roman armies (the Second Punic Wars) 2,250 years ago. Misquoting
Napoleon Bonaparte, “the weapons of war might change greatly across
the years, but the nature of war itself changes not at all …”.
The place where they set that trap also has a name. “Afghanistan”.
9/22/2010 1:27:25 AM
Recommend (1)
qualquan wrote:
Look at our economy and our lost decade. Can we afford pouring
trillions down the sewer of no return as the Neocons want?
Resolve the central problem fairly. The one which got the whole ball
of wax rolling i.e the festering Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Whats more it won’t cost us $trillions either. And if done fairly Al
Qaeda withers on the vine and the entire Muslim world becomes our fan.
9/22/2010 1:15:04 AM
Recommend (2)
dschoen1 wrote:
tomboneill34 wrote:
Obama who turns his back on the thougtful and progressive people who
worked for his election. We see a failed President –in much the way
Lyndon Johnson was one.
The last part is the only part ya got right.
Dems and progressives bust @utt to get Obama elected. They delivered,
what, in total, is still unknown.
Sad, so sad.
9/22/2010 1:14:43 AM
Recommend (1)
tigre1 wrote:
Now you know where the next generation’s jihadists will come from…as
our CIA trained the cadre who became jidhadist insurgents…even al
Queda…it’ll happen again. Why? because we forget Claudswitz’ dictum…
this is serious: Clauswitz, the author of the book on modern warfare,
sad, “You can do anything with bayonets except sit on them…”
The bayonet is the leading edge of the infantry rifleman’s primary
weapon. Shock troops are likened to bayonets: very sharp steel, goes
in first: as the bayonet, shock troops like the CIA trained force are
unique and specialized warriors…after you’ve trained soldiers to that
level, as we had done with some of the people who became jihadists…you
can do anything with them, even send them to blow up planes, hijack,
ambush, anything…but you can’t sit on them, you can’t stop them from
going to war and using violence any time they want to…they’ve been
trained, you can’t let them set their own agendas.
But we …and by that, I mean, whoever is in charge of the current
American handlers of these ‘trained’ Afghan forces…we will try to
‘sit’ on these sharp special forces types soldiers…and just like the
Jihadsts, when we were done with them, they weren’t done with the game
we’d helped train them for.
So while it’s easy to train up great soldiers…after all, it’s not
rocket science, it’s been done for thousands of years…but what you
can’t do is make a soldier of that caliber into a civilian again.
So twenty years after we’re done with them, some of them will be
raising h*ll, because that is their trade, we taught them.
So we shouldn’t be surprised: America’s best agencies and outfits are
tremendous at multiplying force.
It’s just that we’re not quite so good at controlling it. Some of
these CIA trained forces will be bedevilling the West in twenty years
or less, mark my words.
Are there any new ideas in international politics?
9/22/2010 1:13:25 AM
Recommend (1)
mesondk wrote:
There was supposed to be an Emergency Management Forum presentation on
Sep 22 – but it apparently got canceled – too hot to handle
Next FEMA program Sep 22nd Topic:Planning Guidance for Response to a
Nuclear Detonation with James R Kish, Director, FEMA Tech Hazards Div.
9/22/2010 1:12:00 AM
wndrvn wrote:
I find it hard to believe that a book, detailing the precise
objectives of the presidents strategy, and also a list of the
restrictions placed on the military in armed contact with a ferocious
enemy is going to be released for public consumption in the middle of
a war. This gives Al Queda the perfect opportunity to hone their
tactics and strategy, and the american soldier on the ground will pay
the price.
9/22/2010 1:11:21 AM
Recommend (1)
allen11 wrote:
Can you imagine what Abraham Lincoln would have said if Stanton asked
to change the “War Department” to the “Dept. of Defense”? Robert Gates
is the Secretary of War…plain & simple.
9/22/2010 1:08:41 AM
Recommend (1)
dschoen1 wrote:
the president said, “We can absorb a terrorist attack. We’ll do
everything we can to prevent it, but even a 9/11, even the biggest
attack ever . . . we absorbed it and we are stronger.”
Absorbing attacks is what lead to 9/11 you twit!
“he didn’t think about the Afghan war in the “classic” terms of the
United States winning or losing. “I think about it more in terms of:
Do you successfully prosecute a strategy that results in the country
being stronger rather than weaker at the end?” he said.”
Yo, Buckie it’s not a debate, it’s a war.
Tell the troops you want them to fight and die so that you can judge
if there has been a “successfully prosecute a strategy that results
in” whatever.
This is not a fantasy Dungeons and Dragons game, this is not an
academic exercise, this is real life and real death.
What a stupid child we have as a President!
9/22/2010 1:08:09 AM
Recommend (2)
theduke89 wrote:
I’m not surprised at this expose, but I’m shocked at the complete lack
of tactical sense that is part and parcel of OBama’s war policy.
He never had any intention of winning. He only wanted to avoid the
appearance of losing, even as he appeased his Democrat base by
withdrawing. That’s no way to conduct a war. It insults the memory of
those who fought and died for freedom in Afghanistan.
He needs to be voted out in 2012.
9/22/2010 1:07:14 AM
Recommend (4)
cmeares wrote:
Chemical, biological, nuclear….To borrow from General “Buck”
Turgidson, we’d lose 2-3 million people tops! Yeah, we can absorb
that.
9/22/2010 1:06:26 AM
Recommend (2)
tomboneill34 wrote:
What I bet the book portrays, at least between the lines, is an Obama
terrified the American Right will find him “weak on terrorism and
security” and an Obama who caves therefore to the military and the
Right–who all despise him–and an Obama who protects the CIA in all
their past crimes in the expectation he needs them; and thus an Obama
who turns his back on the thougtful and progressive people who worked
for his election. We see a failed President –in much the way Lyndon
Johnson was one.
9/22/2010 1:05:57 AM
Recommend (2)
tokenwhitemale wrote:
“Obama should screw up his courage and do the right thing else he will
be yet another failed prez like GWB.”
LOL in the eyes of most he’s already a failure: the Republicans simply
because he’s not a Republican, and in the eyes of some of the
Democrats, simply because he hasn’t done what they wanted.
I guess that it all comes down to his not doing what they want him to
do.
It’ll be interesting to see what History says of Obama in 30 years.
9/22/2010 1:03:38 AM
Recommend (2)
tomboneill34 wrote:
What I bet the book portrays, at least between the lines, is an Obama
terrified the American Right will find him “weak on terrorism and
security” and an Obama who caves therefore to the military and the
Right–who all despise him–and an Obama who protects the CIA in all
their past crimes in the expectation he needs them; and thus an Obama
who turns his back on the thougtful and progressive people who worked
for his election. We see a failed President –in much the way Lyndon
Johnson was one.
9/22/2010 1:05:57 AM
Recommend (2)
tokenwhitemale wrote:
“Obama should screw up his courage and do the right thing else he will
be yet another failed prez like GWB.”
LOL in the eyes of most he’s already a failure: the Republicans simply
because he’s not a Republican, and in the eyes of some of the
Democrats, simply because he hasn’t done what they wanted.
I guess that it all comes down to his not doing what they want him to
do.
It’ll be interesting to see what History says of Obama in 30 years.
9/22/2010 1:03:38 AM
Recommend (2)
TabLUnoLCSWfromUtah wrote:
It appears that the military failed to carry out order dictated by the
President of the United States. It sounds like a treasonable act on
the part of the military to me.
9/22/2010 1:03:24 AM
ekeizer wrote:
Can we stop pretending that Woodward does any actual editing or work
as an “associate editor” for the Post? It’s a nice arrangement – free,
fawning publicity for Woodward’s books in exchange for “exclusives”
like the occasional excerpt – but I highly doubt it involves any work
for the paper on Woodward’s part.
9/22/2010 1:02:43 AM
costaricanet wrote:
As the Author of the original War Within that I wrote in 1999 and as
an admirer of Mr. Woodward and his colleagues (Mr. Bernstein)’s
tremendous journalistic effort(s) since the Watergate days, I am
compelled to (humbly) comment. Please excuse my comments if they are
out of context or something worse..
The success that America (and the American people) have enjoyed may
seem externally as luck as all of the attacks during Don Barrack
Hussein Obama’s administration have been thwarted by the people that
would have died in those (same) attacks. BUT, this is also the BEAUTY
of the expression of the people and by the people.
Anyway, my point is that YOU Mr. Woodward, know better and you know
who the true enemy within is and I believe that you OWE us all another
war within book. This book can start at Donald Rumsfield’s speech and
follow through the Pentagon strike, an all that needs to come to
light. I will even offer to give you the war within domain name if you
still have it in you Bob.
9/22/2010 1:02:19 AM
Recommend (1)
mdratliff wrote:
until the Pakistan/India/Cashmire crisis is settled, Pakistan will
continue to contribute to unstability in the region…Get out as soon as
possible and support a counterinsugery against the Taliban at
relatively little cost in American lives…
9/22/2010 12:56:38 AM
qualquan wrote:
Obama should screw up his courage and do the right thing else he will
be yet another failed prez like GWB.
First of all he should make the right diagnosis as to why we were
attacked. Bin Laden has repeatedly cited his motivation to be the
plight of the Palestinians and not his dislike for our “freedoms and
democracy” Else, he avers he would have attacked Sweden.
But we and our lapdog MSM assiduously sweep his repeated comments (re
his motivation) under the rug.
So instead of resolving fairly the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we
embarked on endless, counterproductive, budget busting, multi trillion
dollar wars on borrowed money.
So wrong diagnosis followed by wrong treatment.
Then we wonder why our economy, joblessness and homelessness stay in
the rotten state they are, impervious to all the stimulus packages
etc.
Obama should tell the generals that their beloved wars are causing us
to lose American jobs and homes AND creating more enemies. Besides,
the treatment lies elsewhere.
We have lost almost an entire decade since we started these wars.
With our economy shattered lets just pause and ask a question which
the MSM and politicians keep avoiding.
Just who is really winning? Us or them?
9/22/2010 12:53:33 AM
Recommend (2)
L_Stevens64 wrote:
What is it .?
That Our Country.?
is like Trying to do like Instill .
Into whose minds.
of where of peoples .
of what Countries .?
I would like Support to Our Troops.
and Allies More .
For they Our Military and Allies.
to not have to be what subjects as of targets at where of.
More than just what Occupation of where.
of what Countries if possible.
What will keep what Major Weapons to being used .
if some Country does try to do this.
If some Country does try to go against where of another Country .
is there a what a retaliatory of response to being done .
Is most of this what.?
True or false.?
And why would the Military.
of where.?
Or even Our Own Country.
want any stop .
in what a building Up of what weapons .?
Is this what some have said.
is it towards.
A making of what Money .?
If there is enough what Weapons to do what.
destroy how much of Our World.
then why make such of more .
What about Old weapons are any being like kept up.
or checked into how they are also.
To Our World is full of what pain and what suffering.
that most do not give much care .
for some of another even most of the time.
What will ever stop War .?
People seem so bent on troubling whom of some other person.
that conflicts overtake any persons common sense too.
As does so many of what Vices of Our World.
And Greed is maybe included in this too.
these are just what scape goats.
I would say some too to being of used.
by Countries sometimes too.
what is or whom is to have a blame.?
Countries themselves.
should bear up to their own Responsibility .
in their Own Country.
and as they have not .
but looked to what an outward way.
to go at where of .
then that is why I say.
Countries are Responsible.
for what has happened .
in much of the history of where of problems.
Oh well .
Thanks for another day .
A What a dollar of a five O’clock squall or of for what supper also.
waste what and there or who has what of .?
well good bye.
From a veteran .
Larry.
see everyone.
on a flip side .
of Our World.
try to Have some care.
for some you may.?
If any are able too.
what is in store for whom .
a future anything for whom .
what will be for the next generations .
anything .?
Oh well a lot of talk .
squawk .!!
have a nice night.
if any are able too.
the end .
9/22/2010 12:47:29 AM
Recommend (1)
e_ssy wrote:
All the more reason why the axis of evil – Bush, Cheny, Rumsfeld –
should be tried for crimes against humanity.
9/22/2010 12:45:10 AM
Recommend (2)
tokenwhitemale wrote:
“Every day when I turn on my computer there is one more thing posted
that the Obama administration and the Democrats are doing to take over
the country and destroy our freedoms. “
Dude you live in a dreamworld where the government doesn’t actually
have this country under its thumb and we actually have freedoms other
than what allows us to have.
Though I do have to say that you do a great job of turning the
RightWing Paranoia Gun (with Fear & Loathing ammo) on the President.
Funny how when GW was president such talk would be called treason by
the right-wing zealots. Now it’s the President himself who is
destroying America, what?
Which part, the things that he’s doing that are the same that GW did,
or the things that he’s doing differently?
9/22/2010 12:42:33 AM
Recommend (2)
tokenwhitemale wrote:
“2012frank wrote:
“…I need to get a life. Seriously.
Someone please send me a life…
what makes it even worse is that I’m so completely jealous of the
lives of Obama and all of the presidential advisers, that I’m running
a fever. I’m delirious, really. Someone help me, please…”
9/22/2010 12:36:56 AM
Recommend (1)
hurleyvision wrote:
The U. S. doesn’t need to be in Iraq or Afghanistan. When we are gone
they will kill each other off. This is their way of life. And, if the
wacko’s win and are the only ones living, we can crank up the Enola
Gay.
9/22/2010 12:36:05 AM
tokenwhitemale wrote:
“melanerpes wrote:
“We can absorb a terrorist attack.”
A bloodless calculation. That’s a chill I feel, not a tingle.”
Ok make a bloody calculation and say that we can’t absorb another
terrorist attack.
2 guys in a shopping-mall with zip-guns will bring this nation to its
knees.
Now go run off a cliff, for Gods’ sake.
“Yes, it’s terrible, the suffering inflicted by the Taliban on those
unfortunate enough to fall under their control (women especially). And
yes, they will offer sanctuary to those who would attack us. But our
strength is finite. Our putting troops there won’t stop it. If
anything, our presence there strengthens the Taliban long-term by
giving them an infidel enemy to fight in-country; while we go
bankrupt.”
Worse than that, we draw more fanatics to the fight and our troops
begin to be seen as “terrorist casualties” in and of themselves. We
kill 10,000 jihadists, that’s actually a bonus for them. If we lost
10,000 troops in Afghanistan it would be a disaster on several levels.
Then there are the civilian casualties, the massive fraud in the
Afghan government which empower the Taliban as well. 8 years and we
have yet to learn that this is not a winnable situation.
9/22/2010 12:33:51 AM
Recommend (1)
moebius22 wrote:
No comment about the stated draw down date?!
9/22/2010 12:32:10 AM
Recommend (1)
framyx wrote:
Sounds like we have a leader in the oval office. Successful? Yet to be
determined. Shall we fight for him or against him? Appears that
depends on whether you are Republican or Democrat!
A nation divided will fall!
9/22/2010 12:31:51 AM
Recommend (1)
d12s34f56 wrote:
Let’s history be the judge on Obama and the strategies he pursues.
9/22/2010 12:26:20 AM
tokenwhitemale wrote:
Iraq and Afghanistan are just two countries in the Middle East. We
simply can’t afford to keep pouring $200B/year and 10,000 troops into
each of them.
9/22/2010 12:22:45 AM
Recommend (5)
stinkingtuna wrote:
The way to fight terror and win is with more terror. That is what we
have to practice to win. Bomb Mecca and all centers of Islam. Tear
down the mosques. Our military could accomplish this in a few months.
Slaughter large populations when they resist. Annihilate the enemy
before they annihilate us. If they get riled up then kill them all.
Either *hit of get off the pot. I know, I know, it has it’s downside
but at least we would be left standing. And history would be written
in English and not Arabic or Pashto or Farsi or whatever those fools
speak in.
9/22/2010 12:20:40 AM
Recommend (2)
LawsLuvr wrote:
A nation of lies. Makes me wanna cry… we pour billions of our dollars
and soldiers into afghanistan, and STILL THE CIA INSISTS ON ONLY
FIGHTING IN SECRET?! AND RUNNING THE SHOW? Obama, you fired the wrong
general. Does this put Gates in charge??? He’s not under Mullen or the
Joint Chiefs, that’s for sure.
9/22/2010 12:15:52 AM
chamateddy wrote:
With the election fraud by Karzai et al, he had everything given to
him of a silver platter.
Now, it’s too late
9/22/2010 12:13:42 AM
chamateddy wrote:
With the election fraud by Karzai et al, he had everything given to
him of a silver platter.
Now, it’s too late
9/22/2010 12:13:42 AM
nova94v wrote:
we really can’t stay in this war for 10 more years.all you naysayers
against obama=do you have a better solution?by the fact that he has
set limits on what the usa can do against much of what the military
wants show that he is the president.if he chose another alternative
all of you fingerpointing people would still have something to say.
9/22/2010 12:10:18 AM
vwcat wrote:
reading the comments I wonder how many actually read all of the
article or just saw the name Obama in the heading and went straight
for the comments to make slurs against the president that have
absolutely nothing to do with the article.
Just more empty headed wingnuttia fare.
empty headed hate and rage from frightened and pointless rightwingers.
9/22/2010 12:09:45 AM
Recommend (1)
cmeares wrote:
Absorb a terrorist attack on U.S. soil? How well does Obama think we
would absorb a major chemical, biological, or nuclear attack on NYC,
DC, or LA–or how about all three simultaneously? That’s a terrorist’s
wet dream, and they are working every day to make that dream a
reality.
9/22/2010 12:06:14 AM
Recommend (1)
melanerpes wrote:
“We can absorb a terrorist attack.”
A bloodless calculation. That’s a chill I feel, not a tingle.
9/22/2010 12:03:10 AM
Recommend (1)
hogsmile wrote:
He should have pulled the plug on it early last year, not shoveled
even more resources down that rat-hole.
Yes, it’s terrible, the suffering inflicted by the Taliban on those
unfortunate enough to fall under their control (women especially). And
yes, they will offer sanctuary to those who would attack us. But our
strength is finite. Our putting troops there won’t stop it. If
anything, our presence there strengthens the Taliban long-term by
giving them an infidel enemy to fight in-country; while we go
bankrupt.
9/21/2010 11:59:09 PM
Recommend (5)
wave41 wrote:
Did anyone in the military explain to Obama that the “exit strategy”
is to win? You do the job and then you leave. But of course, Obama
isn’t concerned about “winning” a war which is why he will ultimately
fail and cost even more American lives.
9/21/2010 11:58:30 PM
Recommend (1)
potomacfever00 wrote:
it would be a charitable statement to say that the poseur sitting in
the oval office is in over his head.
it’s terrifying to ponder just how much more damage he can do to this
country with the two years he has remaining in his presidency.
coming soon to an automobile bumper near you:
“Don’t Blame Me, I Voted For Hillary”
9/21/2010 11:54:58 PM
Recommend (2)
trotsky2 wrote:
Now what?
9/21/2010 11:52:13 PM
Recommend (1)
wave41 wrote:
He’ll spend a trillion dollars on a health care plan that is worse
than what we currently have but he won’t spend a trillion on a
national security issue.
9/21/2010 11:49:11 PM
Recommend (3)
tx-il wrote:
I think this article sums up the Obama Presidency: Trying to make
everyone happy, makes absolutely no one happy.
It’s sad and depressing that such a talented and smart man has been
such a weak President.
9/21/2010 11:43:12 PM
Recommend (3)
2012frank wrote:
Obama has been cut throat, calculating, aloof, arrogant and divisive
“from day one”. He and his liberal political elites think they know
what’s best for the people and the bigger the government the better.
He has routinely ignored the will of the people (debt, health care,
borders), and while his most noticeable feature are his big ears, he
lacks the common sense to use them.
For most Americans, Obama means 13 trillion dollars in debt and rising
to 17-19 trillion before he is through. Debt service of up to $ 1
trillion a year. A permanent reduction in the lifestyle of all of our
descendants. The end of American exceptionalism and the gross
reduction of American power. Double digit unemployment. An ever
smaller number of productive people supporting an ever growing number
of government workers . Massive inflation. Abandoning the dollar as
the world’s reserve currency. And the laughter of China, Russia and
every two bit dictator in the middle east, Asia and South America.
Every day when I turn on my computer there is one more thing posted
that the Obama administration and the Democrats are doing to take over
the country and destroy our freedoms. Obama is chronically detached
from the central and immediate concerns of “The People” he was hired
to serve, instead, he is dragging America into the alternate universe
of his Socialistic ideology. He thrives in the ether of platitudes,
having no interest in or ability to perform actual leadership. We are
now experiencing the effects and may well be in for a very rough ride
these next 2 years.
As Lou Holtz says, “Life is ten percent what happens to you and ninety
percent how you respond to it.” The issue is how Obama and his
bumbling, finger-pointing, evasive group of academic administrators
fully and completely bungle their jobs demonstrating daily their
inability to handle almost anything.
9/21/2010 11:38:32 PM
Recommend (4)
georges2 wrote:
Oh, so Obama isn’t really Commander in Chief material! Hmmm. We
Republicans had it right after all. I’m absolutely astonished the Post
published this. Are you seeing the light, WaPo?
9/21/2010 11:34:07 PM
Recommend (6)
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Religious
fundamentalism, Terrorism
22/09/2010
« Goodbye Again
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/22/india-worries-about-hindu-corporate-terrorists/
India in talks on BlackBerry e-mail access-source
Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:30pm EDT
(Repeats story issued late on Tuesday)
(Recasts, adds background)
By Bappa Majumdar
NEW DELHI, Sept 21 (Reuters) – India is in talks with Research In
Motion Ltd (RIM.TO) to gain access to BlackBerry corporate e-mails
after securing access to instant messages sent via the devices, a
senior government source said on Tuesday.
India, which along with several other countries has expressed concerns
that BlackBerry services could be used to stir political or social
instability, had threatened RIM with a ban if it were denied access to
data.
A spokeswoman for RIM, which has never commented on whether the Indian
government has access to BlackBerry services, was not immediately
available for comment.
The Indian interior ministry said on Aug. 30 that the Canadian firm
had offered several ways to allow authorities to monitor BlackBerry
communications. The government said it would check their feasibility
over the next 60 days. [ID:nSGE67T0I0]
Saudi Arabia, fretful over services such as online pornography, has
reached a deal with RIM on access to the BlackBerry Messenger instant
messaging service, a consumer product that operates outside of the
secure corporate domain, according to government sources.
[ID:nN10122755]
Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates have raised similar concerns, with
the UAE setting an Oct. 11 deadline for RIM.
READABLE FORMAT
India had threatened to shut off RIM’s encrypted e-mail and instant
messaging services unless it gained access to them, in a campaign
driven by fears that unmonitored e-mail and messaging puts the
country’s security at risk. [ID:nSGE6800HD]
“They have started giving us access to messenger service from Sept.
1,” the government source said on Tuesday. “Discussions are under way
so that we get access to the other service, which is corporate e-mail,
so that we can read it in readable format.”
A source had earlier told Reuters the Indian government had been
granted access to data effective Sept. 1, but the nature of the access
was unclear.
Robert Crow, a vice president at the Canadian maker of the popular
BlackBerry phones, met interior secretary Gopal Pillai and other
senior officials on Tuesday, the government source said. Crow refused
to comment on the nature of discussions after the meeting.
India’s efforts to monitor BlackBerry traffic could have an impact on
the shape of India’s mobile phone market, the world’s fastest-growing,
and possibly hand gains to Apple Inc (AAPL.O) and Nokia Oyj
(NOK1V.HE), BlackBerry’s two biggest smartphone rivals in India.
Data sent from non-RIM devices is easier to intercept and only
requires the approval of the carrier, whereas RIM says carriers have
no access to its encrypted data.
India also wants RIM and other Internet communications providers such
as Google Inc (GOOG.O) and Skype to put up local servers and allow
full monitoring of traffic.
(Writing by Sumeet Chatterjee; Editing by Jui Chakravorty and David
Holmes)
((sumeet.c...@thomsonreuters.com; +91-22-6636 9068; Reuters
Messaging: sumeet.chatter...@reuters.net))
((If you have a query or comment on this story, send an email to
news.feed...@thomsonreuters.com)) Keywords: INDIA BLACKBERRY/
(C) Reuters 2010. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution
ofReuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is
expresslyprohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.
Reuters and the Reuterssphere logo are registered trademarks and
trademarks of the Reuters group ofcompanies around the world.
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
22/09/2010
« Nobel Laureate President Betrayede
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/22/cyber-war-here-i-oops-america-comes/
'Intelligence Squared U.S.' debate on terrorism
cyberwar debate
cyberwar1
cyberwar2
Cyberwar Risk Poses Specter Of Cyberwar Crimes
by Tom Gjelten
September 22, 2010
Audio for this story from Morning Edition will be available at approx.
9:00 a.m. ET
Transcript
Brendan Hoffman/Getty Images
Air traffic control systems are part of the national infrastructure
that may someday come under attack, experts say. Here, flights bound
for Baltimore/Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport are
highlighted on a monitor.
Brendan Hoffman/Getty Images Air traffic control systems are part of
the national infrastructure that may someday come under attack,
experts say. Here, flights bound for Baltimore/Washington
International Thurgood Marshall Airport are highlighted on a monitor.
September 22, 2010 First of two parts
It may come as a surprise to some war victims, but there actually is a
body of international law that establishes when and how nations can
legally engage in armed conflict.
Various treaties — the United Nations Charter, and the Hague and
Geneva conventions — distinguish between victims and aggressors, and
put forward combat guidelines that, when honored, provide some
protection to civilians. Professional militaries train with the rules
of war in mind, recognizing that abiding by them works to their
benefit as much as to the enemy’s.
It is no surprise, then, that many legal experts, diplomats and
military commanders around the world are now debating how to extend
the law of war to cyberspace. The emergence of electronic and cyberwar-
fighting capabilities is the most important military development in
decades, but it is not yet clear how existing treaties and conventions
might apply in this new domain of conflict.
We don’t know when or if a cyberattack rises to the level of an ‘armed
attack.’
- Professor Daniel Ryan, National Defense University
Uncertainty about the legal and ethical limits of state behavior in
cyberspace could have disastrous consequences.
“If nations don’t know what the rules are, all sorts of accidental
problems might arise,” says Harvard law professor Jack Goldsmith. “One
nation might do something that another nation takes to be an act of
war, even when the first nation did not intend it to be an act of
war.”
Under the U.N. Charter, states have the right to go to war if they
come under an “armed attack” from another state. But there is no
consensus yet on what that right means in the event of an attack on a
country’s computer networks.
One important consideration is whether the attack is the work of a
lone hacker, a criminal group or a government. The law of war applies
primarily to conflict between states, so truly rogue actions would not
normally be covered.
The purpose of the activity is also relevant. Michael Hayden, having
directed both the National Security Agency and the CIA, would not
include an effort by one country to break into another country’s
computer system to steal information or plans.
Cyberwar Or Simply Espionage?
“We don’t call that an attack,” Hayden said at a recent conference on
hacking. “We don’t call that cyberwar. That’s exploitation. That’s
espionage. States do that all the time.”
Gary P. Bonaccorso/Getty Images
Soldiers monitor computer screens inside the U.S. Central Command’s
mobile headquarters, in this U.S. military photo from 2002. A major
concern regarding cyber warfare is the difficulty in distinguishing
military targets from civilian targets.
Cyberwar, Hayden and others argue, involves a deliberate attempt to
disable or destroy another country’s computer networks. But how much
damage must be done before a cyber operation could be considered an
act of war under the U.N. Charter — and thus justify the use of force
in response?
“We don’t know when or if a cyberattack rises to the level of an
‘armed attack,’ ” says Daniel Ryan, who teaches cyber law and the law
of war at the U.S. military’s National Defense University.
International law is also somewhat unclear when it comes to how states
could use cyberweapons in wartime. The Hague and Geneva conventions
require militaries to minimize the damage to civilians in wartime. So
in a cyber conflict, military targets would presumably have to be
distinguished from civilian targets, with civilian computer networks
off limits.
“A direct attack on a civilian infrastructure that caused damage, even
loss of life of civilians, would, I think, be a war crime,” Ryan says.
The civilian computer infrastructure would include the networks that
control an air traffic control system or a water supply, for example.
But distinguishing civilian and military cybertargets is not
necessarily so simple.
Private Networks
“Computers don’t always have signs over them that say, ‘I’m a military
target’ [or] ‘I’m a civilian target,’ ” says Harvard’s Goldsmith.
“Also, the two things are intermixed. Ninety to 95 percent of U.S.
military and intelligence communications travel over private
networks.”
One danger is that an attacking military may set out to hit a military
target but then hurt civilians in the process. This could happen if
the attack is disproportionate to the military objective.
The law of war requires “proportionality.” You can’t level a city to
destroy a single military unit located there. In the cyberworld, this
rule means you couldn’t plan a massive computer attack, even on a
military network, without regard for the civilian computer networks
that would be affected by that attack.
But with computer networks so highly interlinked, it will be harder to
adhere to the proportionality rule in a cyber conflict than in a
conventional war.
“The U.S. government, when they’re dropping a bomb, they have all
sorts of computer algorithms and studies that they use to show exactly
what the consequences are going to be from dropping this bomb from
this angle on this building,” Goldsmith says. “Those consequential
analyses are much harder in cyberspace, and so it’s hard to apply the
proportionality test.”
Given all the indirect effects that might flow from a cyberattack,
cyberwar planners could easily be confounded by the legal
considerations.
Looking For The ‘Right Answer’
“Since we can’t predict what the unintended consequences of the use of
cyber might be, that would say, you can’t attack at all in
cyberspace,” Ryan says. “That can’t possibly be the right answer.”
To Ryan, the “right answer” is that commanders should have to consider
those effects of a cyberattack they are able to consider, but not
those consequences that can’t be anticipated.
Former CIA Director Hayden, a retired Air Force general, suggests
using common sense. One example of an attack that should be illegal,
he says, would be the insertion of damaging software into an
electrical grid.
“Overall, finance is so dependent upon investor confidence that
cyberpenetration of any electrical grid, for whatever transient
advantage it might create for the aggressor state, is so harmful to
the international financial system that we should just all agree:
These are like chemical weapons; we’re just not going to use them,”
Hayden said in July.
Yet another troublesome issue is how the rules of war could be
enforced in cyberspace. Skeptics point out that even if governments
could agree on what is illegal, it wouldn’t necessarily mean they
would honor those agreements.
“It is a near certainty that the United States will scrupulously obey
whatever is written down, and it is almost as certain that no one else
will,” says Stewart Baker, a former NSA general counsel and an
assistant secretary of homeland security under President George W.
Bush.
‘No One Is Going To Get Caught’
If anything, it would be harder to enforce the law of war in the
cyberworld than in other domains of warfighting. The amount of
anonymity in cyberspace means that a devastating attack might leave no
“signature” or trace of its origin.
“Since we know that that’s going to happen all the time,” Baker says,
“and no one is going to get caught, to say that [a cyberattack] is a
violation of the law of war, is simply to make the law of war
irrelevant.”
But whether war crimes are prosecuted or not, military commanders like
to know the rules under which they are supposed to fight. “There is a
great deal of discussion going on right now about this,” says Daniel
Ryan, whose students at the National Defense University include senior
U.S. military and government officials.
Discussion of the legal and ethical issues around cyberwar is also a
popular and controversial subject at the United Nations; the upcoming
session of the U.N. General Assembly is likely to feature renewed
debate over the issue.
In tomorrow’s report: the pros and cons of an international cyber-arms-
control accord
Are Terrorists Criminals Or Enemy Combatants?
by NPR Staff
Chris Vultaggio
The audience at New York University’s Skirball Center for the
Performing Arts voted 55 percent against the motion “Treat Terrorists
Like Enemy Combatants, Not Criminals” after the Sept. 14 debate.
Read A Transcript (PDF)
Hear The Debate
The Broadcast Version Of The Debate
[50 min 19 sec]
Add to PlaylistDownloadTranscript The Full Audio Of The Debate
[1 hr 40 min 10 sec]
Add to PlaylistDownload Coming Up
On Oct. 6, a panel of experts will debate the motion Islam Is A
Religion Of Peace
text size A A A September 21, 2010 Nine years after the Sept. 11
attacks, Americans continue to struggle with the complex ethical and
legal questions that have been raised by the country’s fight against
terrorism. Among them: whether terrorists should be treated as
criminals or as enemy combatants.
Some view a law enforcement approach to terrorism as dangerous. They
argue that treating terrorists like criminals takes away vital tools
that can be used to prevent attacks, such as interrogating detainees
for intelligence and launching drone strikes.
But others counter that holding suspects without charge and denying
them the ability to defend themselves in court goes against American
values — and eventually erodes the freedoms of law-abiding citizens.
Four experts recently went head to head on the issue in the latest
debate in the Intelligence Squared U.S. series. The motion for the
Oxford-style debate was “Treat Terrorists Like Enemy Combatants, Not
Criminals.” Two panelists argued in favor of the motion; two argued
against.
Before the debate, the audience at New York University’s Skirball
Center for the Performing Arts voted 33 percent for the motion and 32
percent against, with 35 percent undecided. After the debate, those
arguing against treating terrorists like enemy combatants were
declared the winners — 55 percent of the audience sided with them,
while 39 percent were in favor of the motion and 6 percent remained
unsure.
John Donvan, correspondent for ABC News’ Nightline, moderated the
Sept. 14 debate. Those debating were:
Chris Vultaggio
Michael Hayden (left) and Marc Thiessen argue in favor of treating
terrorists as enemy combatants.
FOR THE MOTION
Michael Hayden has served as director of the Central Intelligence
Agency; as the country’s first principal deputy director of national
intelligence; and as director of the National Security Agency and
chief of the Central Security Service. He also served as commander of
the Air Intelligence Agency and director of the Joint Command and
Control Warfare Center. He retired as a four-star general from the
U.S. Air Force after 39 years of active service. Hayden is currently a
principal at the Chertoff Group, where he focuses on intelligence and
risk analysis.
Marc Thiessen served as chief speechwriter to President George W. Bush
and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and, before that, as a senior
aide to Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jesse Helms. He is
a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a weekly
columnist for The Washington Post and author of The New York Times
best-seller Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How
Barack Obama Is Inviting the Next Attack (2010). His work has appeared
in The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, National
Review, Weekly Standard, Daily Beast and other publications.
Chris Vultaggio
David Frakt and Stephen Jones argue against the motion “Treat
Terrorists Like Enemy Combatants, Not Criminals” during the Sept. 14
debate.
AGAINST THE MOTION
David Frakt is a professor at Barry University’s Dwayne O. Andreas
School of Law and a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve
JAG Corps. From April 2008 to August 2009, he served as lead defense
counsel with the Office of Military Commissions, where he became the
first military defense counsel to win the dismissal of charges in a
military commission, in the case of Mohammed Jawad. He was previously
an associate professor and director of the Criminal Law Practice
Center at Western State University College of Law in Fullerton, Calif.
Stephen Jones is managing partner of the law firm of Jones, Otjen, and
Davis. He has been involved in the defense of cases involving alleged
acts of terrorism and/or disloyalty stretching back to the Vietnam
War. In May 1995, he was appointed by the U.S. District Court to serve
as the principal defense counsel for Timothy McVeigh, who was charged
with the use of a weapon of mass destruction in the Oklahoma City
bombing, which resulted in 168 deaths and was at that time the largest
mass murder in American history. He has also represented retired or
former employees of the Central Intelligence Agency, the National
Security Agency and National Security Council staff.
Has The Cyberwar Threat Been Exaggerated?
by NPR Staff
Dennis Brack
Four experts argue over the motion “The Cyber War Threat Has Been
Grossly Exaggerated” during an Oxford-style debate moderated by John
Donvan (center), before an audience at the Newseum in Washington,
D.C., on June 8.
June 16, 2010 As succeeding presidential administrations and leaders
in the Pentagon devote increasing resources to defending U.S. computer
networks and planning for potential cyber warfare, some observers are
questioning whether the cyber threat has been overstated.
While risks do exist, they say, most of them don’t truly rise to the
level of war. And framing the debate in war terms could provide
justification for the U.S. intelligence community to assert greater
authority over what people can do on the Internet, they argue.
But those who warn of the country’s cyber vulnerabilities argue that
criminals, hackers and other nations pose a great threat to disrupt
and destroy the data networks the U.S. relies on so heavily — and
strong defenses are essential.
Four experts recently gathered to explore both sides of the issue in
an Oxford-style debate on the motion “The Cyber War Threat Has Been
Grossly Exaggerated” before an audience at the Newseum in Washington,
D.C. The debate was the first in the Intelligence Squared U.S. series
to be held outside New York City.
Before the debate, the audience voted 24 percent in favor of the
motion “The Cyber War Threat Has Been Grossly Exaggerated,” and 54
percent against, with 22 percent undecided. And the side arguing
against the motion carried the day: After the debate, 71 percent of
the audience voted to oppose the motion, 23 percent supported it and 6
percent remained undecided.
Coming Up
Here are the planned Intelligence Squared U.S. debates for Fall 2010:
FOR THE MOTION
Marc Rotenberg is executive director of the Electronic Privacy
Information Center in Washington, D.C. He teaches information privacy
law at Georgetown University Law Center and has testified before
Congress on many issues, including access to information, encryption
policy, consumer protection, computer security and communications
privacy. He testified before the 9/11 Commission on “Security and
Liberty: Protecting Privacy, Preventing Terrorism.” He has served on
several national and international advisory panels, including the
expert panel on cryptography policy and computer security for the
Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
Bruce Schneier is an internationally renowned security technologist,
referred to by The Economist as a “security guru.” He is the author of
nine books — including the best-sellers Beyond Fear, Secrets and Lies
and Applied Cryptography — as well as hundreds of articles and essays,
and many more academic papers. His influential newsletter Crypto-Gram
and his blog Schneier on Security are read by more than 250,000
people. Schneier is the chief security technology officer of BT.
Dennis Brack
Retired Vice Adm. Mike McConnell argues for the team against the
motion, which won the debate.
Dennis Brack Retired Vice Adm. Mike McConnell argues for the team
against the motion, which won the debate.
AGAINST THE MOTION
John M. “Mike” McConnell, a retired vice admiral, is executive vice
president and leader of the national security business for Booz Allen
Hamilton and is a member of the firm’s leadership team. McConnell
previously served from 2007-09 as U.S. director of national
intelligence, a position of Cabinet rank under presidents George W.
Bush and Barack Obama. As DNI, he served as the principal intelligence
adviser to the president and as a member of the U.S. National Security
Council. McConnell’s career has spanned more than 40 years, focusing
on international developments and foreign intelligence issues,
including 29 years as a career intelligence officer in the U.S. Navy.
Jonathan Zittrain is professor of law at Harvard Law School, where he
co-founded its Berkman Center for Internet & Society, and is a member
of the Board of Trustees of the Internet Society. Previously, he was
professor of Internet governance and regulation at Oxford University.
He performed the first large-scale tests of Internet filtering in
China and Saudi Arabia in 2002, and now as part of the OpenNet
Initiative, he has co-edited a study of Internet filtering by national
governments, “Access Denied: The Practice and Policy of Global
Internet Filtering.”
The Intelligence Squared U.S. series is produced in New York City by
The Rosenkranz Foundation.
The cybercultures reader
David Bell, Barbara M. Kennedy
3 Reviews
Psychology Press, 2000 – Computers – 768 pages
The Cybercultures Readerbrings together articles covering the whole
spectrum of cyberspace and related new technologies to explore the
ways in which these technologies are reshaping cultural forms and
practices at the turn of the century. The reader is divided into
thematic sections focussing on key issues such as subcultures in
cyberspace, posthumanism and cyberbodies and pop-cultural depictions
of human-machine interaction. Key features include: * section
introductions locating the essays in their theoretical and
technological context * editor’s introduction and accompanying user’s
guide * extensive bibliography
Customer Review
Ignore the cliched title and access a wide variety of academic views,
June 11, 2010
By Michael Speck
This review is from: The Cybercultures Reader (Paperback)
I fond some of this book cliched and tenditious. However by
perservering and wading through the entire text revealed some gems,
look in particular for aldous Huxley’s formula for bad art!
A great resource and one that would be very useful for undergrads
especially
My Comment:
On Page 676, Chapter 44 edited by Ananda Mitra.
Ananda talks about Virtual Commodity: Looking for India on the
Internet.
Ananda exposes Dr Jai Maharaj. A hired gun by Brahmins like S
Kalyanaraman, who is associated with and honored by RSS, a Brahmin
terrorist organization. Dr Jai Maharaj also takes Hindu shit from
others such as Ashok V Chowgule, an Induastrialist of Goa, offices in
Mumbai. Ashok Vishvas Chowgule is a vice president of heinous Hindu
terrorist branch of RSS. They are credited with Ayodhya’s Muslim
mosque called “Babri Masjid. demolition”
This terrible act has spawned nationwide bombings, murders, massacres
and mayhem. One Dawood Ibrahim, originally from Kalvan village/town in
the hills of Nashik district in Maharashtra, responded in kind in
managing multiple bombings in Bombay/Mumbai.
Hindu terrorism if not in its most vicious form survived.
Now these Hindu hoodlums and their American Hindu patrons hire
hooligans like Dr Jai Maharaj to do their dirty work for them. To this
day, Dr Jai Maharaj has posted over million posts, oops, crossposted.
If this is not terrorism then what is?
I don’t have to quote what Dr Jai Maharaj posts. You can search on
Google:
Dr Jai Maharaj “Dr Jai Maharaj” You will get a truckload of Hindu
shit, hateful messages from Hindu Brahmins and lot of balderdash such
as a route taken by mythical person named Rama to Lanka. Lanka is not
mythical and India, also is not mythical. It is these Hindu hoodlums
who make a myth a reality.
…and I am Sid Harth
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)
•‘Cyber War’ author Richard Clarke: U.S. needs radical changes to
protec…
Conflict, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Terrorism
22/09/2010
« India Worries About Hindu Corporate Terrorists
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Obama's Wars
Bob Woodward
Official defends Obama ahead of revelations in Woodward book
By the CNN Wire StaffSeptember 22, 2010 8:55 a.m. EDT
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Journalist Bob Woodward reveals deep rifts on Afghanistan strategy
A frustrated Obama sought an exit plan, the book says
Official defends Obama as analytical and desicive
Washington (CNN) — A senior administration official defended President
Barack Obama on Wednesday as a decisive commander-in-chief ahead of
next week’s release of a book that reveals an administration deeply
divided over U.S. strategy in Afghanistan.
“Obama’s Wars,” by veteran Washington journalist Bob Woodward,
describes a frustrated president who urgently sought an exit plan,
only to be provided with options that involved increased U.S. troop
levels, the Washington Post reported Wednesday. Woodward is associate
editor of the newspaper.
Woodward takes readers behind the scenes in the Obama White House
through accounts of closed-door strategy sessions, private
conversations, internal memos and hours of interviews with key
players.
“This needs to be a plan about how we’re going to hand it off and get
out of Afghanistan,” Obama is quoted telling his aides as he agreed to
a short-term escalation of 30,000 troops, according to the Post.
“Everything we’re doing has to be focused on how we’re going to get to
the point where we can reduce our footprint. It’s in our national
security interest,” Obama said, according to the newspaper.
In a October 2009 meeting with Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates
and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Obama said: “I’m not doing 10
years. “I’m not doing long-term nation-building. I am not spending a
trillion dollars.”
A senior administration official Wednesday downplayed the rifts
portrayed in the book, slated for release Monday.
“The President comes across in the review, and throughout the decision-
making process as a commander-in-chief who is analytical, strategic,
and decisive, with a broad view of history, national security, and his
role,” the official said.
The official said Obama wanted concise answers to questions about the
capacities of the Afghan government and whether counterinsurgency
strategy could be effective there. The official said Obama wanted to
know exactly what kind of U.S. presence was required and what could
realistically be achieved in the immediate future.
Woodward reveals a president greatly at odds with top military
advisers Gen. David Petraeus and Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Woodward writes that dissent turned into name calling on both sides,
the Post reported. At one point, Petraeus felt shut out and told an
aide that he considered Obama advisers Dabvid Axlerod a “complete spin
doctor.”
Among other disclosures in Woodward’s book, according to the Post:
– The U.S. government was unprepared to deal with a nuclear terrosrist
attack on American soil. Obama told Woodward in an interview: “When I
go down the list of things I have to worry about all the time, that is
at the top, because that’s one where you can’t afford any mistakes.”
– And that Afghan President Hamid Karzai was diagnosed as manic
depressive, Woodward says, citing U.S. intelligence reports. “He’s on
his meds, he’s off his meds,” Woodward quotes U.S. Ambassador Karl W.
Eikenberry as saying.
Obama presidency ‘hobbled by discord’ according to book
Extracts from Obama’s Wars portray president anxious to pull US troops
out of Afghanistan and at odds with senior advisers
Comments (27)
Julian Borger guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 22 September 2010 12.46 BST
Barack Obama’s presidency is hobbled by discord, according to a new
book, Obama’s Wars. Photograph: Pablo Martinez Monsivais/AP
The Obama presidency is hobbled by discord and mutual contempt among
its senior policy-makers and top generals according to a new book
which is likely to damage the administration in November’s
congressional elections and undermine its efforts in Afghanistan.
The book, Obama’s Wars, by the veteran investigative journalist Bob
Woodward, is out on Monday, but extracts published overnight by the
Washington Post and the New York Times make it clear that it will hurt
the administration in the runup to mid-term elections, in which
Democrats are already struggling and in which they are expected to
lose control of the House of Representatives.
The book also portrays a president anxious to pull US troops out of
Afghanistan as soon as possible, and at odds with his military
commanders and some senior advisers, who openly question whether his
strategy will work. It is likely to be read as evidence that the
attempt to divide the Taliban is having more success dividing
Washington.
Woodward appears to have had access to secret memos and accounts of
sensitive discussions within the administration as it tried to decide
on its Afghanistan strategy a year ago. It is already known that the
generals asked for more troops than the 30,000 finally agreed by
Obama, and that vice-president Joe Biden argued for a more limited war
effort aimed principally at targeting al-Qaida. Woodward reveals that
Obama resolved the dispute by designing his blueprint, a six-page
document which he presented to his White House staff on 29 November.
It approved the extra troops but laid down sharp restrictions on what
the military could and could not do in Afghanistan.
“This needs to be a plan about how we’re going to hand it off and get
out of Afghanistan,” Obama is reported to have said. “Everything we’re
doing has to be focused on how we’re going to get to the point where
we can reduce our footprint. It’s in our national security interest.
There cannot be any wiggle room.”
He is also quoted as telling the defence secretary, Robert Gates, and
the secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, in late October last year:
“I’m not doing 10 years … I’m not doing long-term nation-building. I
am not spending a trillion dollars.”
The book reveals that senior officials harboured doubts over whether
the “hybrid” plan would work. Biden warned that escalation would mean
“we’re locked into Vietnam”. Lieutenant General Douglas Lute, the
president’s Afghanistan adviser, is described as believing that the
strategy review carried out by the administration did not “add up” to
the decision ultimately made. Richard Holbrooke, the president’s
special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, is quoted as
saying that the strategy “can’t work”.
Among the other revelations made by Obama’s Wars:
• US intelligence reported to the White House that the Afghan
president, Hamid Karzai, was suffering from manic depression, and was
taking medication.
• Obama believes that the US can “absorb” another terrorist attack. He
told Woodward: “We’ll do everything we can to prevent it, but even a
9/11, even the biggest attack ever … we absorbed it and we are
stronger”.
• The CIA has set up a 3,000-man Afghan paramilitary unit, known as
the Counterterrorism Pursuit Teams, used for covert cross-border
operations against al-Qaida and Taliban havens.
• US intelligence told Obama that Pakistan was not a reliable partner
in the Afghan conflict, either unwilling or unable to stop elements in
its own intelligence service from supporting the Afghan insurgents.
Obama is quoted as saying: “We need to make clear to people that the
cancer is in Pakistan.”
One of the most striking elements of Woodward’s account is the
ferocious backbiting among senior members of Obama’s team.
During disputes over the Afghanistan strategy, General David Petraeus,
then head of Central Command, told his aides that the administration
was “[expletive] with the wrong guy”. Petraeus describes David
Axelrod, the president’s top political adviser, as “a complete spin
doctor”. The national security adviser, James Jones, refers to the
White House political team as “the water bugs,” the “politburo,” the
“mafia,” or the “campaign set”.
22 September 2010 Last updated at 07:17 ET
Profile: Bob Woodward, from Watergate to Obama
Bob Woodward has written several best-selling non-fiction books To
most people, Bob Woodward’s name will always be synonymous with one
word: Watergate.
The veteran journalist was at the heart of the scandal that rocked the
White House and brought down US President Richard Nixon in 1974.
Along with Carl Bernstein, his colleague at the Washington Post,
Woodward was instrumental in uncovering a series of abuses of power
that reached the highest level of the administration.
More than three decades on, Woodward remains at the Washington Post
and is regarded as one of the country’s most respected investigative
journalists.
He can still be a thorn in the side of the White House, most recently
releasing a book that has stirred up controversy over the war in
Afghanistan.
Woodward’s new book suggests policy divisions over the Afghan war
Entitled Obama’s Wars, the book suggests that President Barack Obama
and his aides are deeply divided over the war in Afghanistan, despite
Mr Obama’s commitment to increase troop levels.
It hints at conflicts over the timetable for a US withdrawal, with
President Obama reportedly wanting an exit strategy, saying: “I can’t
lose the whole Democratic Party”.
The book is one of 15 written by the 67-year old over his long career,
all of which have become best-sellers.
His first, All The President’s Men, about Watergate and co-authored
with Bernstein, was in 1976 adapted into a film starring Robert
Redford and Dustin Hoffman.
Robert Upshur Woodward was born in Geneva, Illinois, on 26 March 1943,
to Jane and Alfred Woodward.
He studied history and English literature at Yale University before
undertaking a five-year tour of duty with the US Navy.
Upon being discharged as a lieutenant, Woodward considered law school
– as his father suggested – but instead took two weeks’ work
experience at the Washington Post, which eventually ended in him being
hired as a reporter.
Big break
His big break came when he and Bernstein were assigned to cover a 1972
break-in by five men who were arrested trying to bug the offices of
the Democratic National Committee, housed in the Watergate complex in
Washington DC.
Woodward made his name early on in his career The incident was traced
to members of a Nixon support group, the Committee to Re-elect the
President.
A series of cover-ups followed, and the conspiracy became known as
Watergate.
President Nixon and his aides at first dismissed the Washington Post’s
reports.
But as the claims gathered substance, Nixon’s support plummeted and,
in August 1974, he became the only US president to resign from office.
Nixon was replaced by his Vice-President, Gerald Ford, who pardoned
him, while Nixon’s chief associates – Harry Haldeman, John Ehrlichman
and John Mitchell – were convicted in 1975 over their role in the
Watergate scandal.
Woodward has won a number of accolades for his work over several
decades, including crucial contributions to two Pulitzer prizes won by
the Washington Post – for Watergate and, more recently, for coverage
of the 9/11 attacks.
But he is not without his critics, with some condemning his use of
unnamed sources.
Journalist Christopher Hitchens accuses him of “access” journalism,
where reporters gain information from sources on certain conditions.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews
22/09/2010
« Israelites not chosen people, merely extremely lucky
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Commonwealth Games and Coolies
Collapsed Pedestrian Bridge 3
India battles to save scandal-hit Commonwealth Games
Factboxes
Factbox – Commonwealth teams’ reaction to setbacks
8:22am BST
Factbox – Commonwealth teams’ reaction to setbacks
3:33pm BST
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Roof portion collapses at India Games stadium complex
11:29am BST
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11:17am BST
Scotland team delays departure to Commonwealth Games
11:17am BST
Cancellation could be disastrous for Games’ future – NZ PM
8:22am BST
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8:22am BST
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Athletes reconsider New Delhi Games
11:53am BST
India woes mount, as Games near
1 / 5
Indian security personnel stand guard in front of a collapsed
pedestrian bridge outside the Jawaharlal Nehru Stadium in New Delhi
September 21, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Adnan Abidi
Athletes reconsider New Delhi Games (01:55) Report
By Amlan Chakraborty
NEW DELHI | Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:33pm BST
NEW DELHI (Reuters) – India scrambled against the clock to save the
Commonwealth Games after big ticket athletes quit the showcase event
and nations threatened to stay home unless authorities cleaned venues
“unfit for human habitation.”
Scotland delayed its departure to New Delhi and Wales gave organisers
until later on Wednesday to guarantee that the venues and athletes’
village are safe. The New Zealand swimming team is seeking a “Plan B”
should the event be cancelled.
Commonwealth Games Federation president Michael Fennell, who said the
two-week event suffered from filthy conditions, will arrive on
Thursday for a probable meeting with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
In the next few days thousands of athletes will start arriving for the
October 3 start.
India had hoped to use the $6 billion (3 billion pounds) Games, held
every four years for members of the former British Empire, as a
display of its growing global economic and political clout rivalling
China.
Instead, the Games have descended into farce with some countries
giving organisers an ultimatum of a few days to get everything ready
or face the prospect of national withdrawals from an event which is so
far only showcasing Indian traveller-tale cliches of filth, chaos and
corruption.
“Officials found that building works had fallen seriously behind
schedule and that its allocated accommodation blocks were far from
finished and in their view, unsafe and unfit for human habitation,”
Team Scotland said in a statement.
A portion of false ceiling in the weightlifting venue caved in on
Wednesday, a day after the collapse of a footbridge by the main
stadium injured 27 workers, highlighting the problems facing
organisers as they race to complete work.
Nobody was injured at the weightlifting venue.
“There have been dogs roaming around the village, the apartments are
filthy, there are piles of rubble and right now it’s not fit to
receive 6,500 athletes and officials,” Michael Cavanagh, chairman of
Commonwealth Games Scotland, told the BBC.
“National Shame” was the headline in one Indian newspaper.
New Zealand’s swimming team left today for Abu Dhabi, with an official
saying another competition was in the pipeline if the Games are
cancelled. Australian and Canadian squads are in Singapore and the
British in Doha, suggesting another Asian meet could be hastily
organised.
There have been reports of stray dogs, stagnant water, workers
urinating in public, and human faeces being found at the unfinished
village where the athletes will live.
Stagnant pools of water, breeding grounds for dengue mosquitoes, lie
around and a Reuters reporter said homeless people were living outside
the main stadium.
Indian government officials say the problems, including the roof
collapse on Wednesday, are mostly minor glitches and the Games will be
a success.
But criticism is mounting even within India, where the country’s
leadership is seen as out-of-touch and having failed to understand
what is expected of a nation which is not short of funds nor skilled
labour to host a major sporting event.
It also highlights concerns about how India will effectively spend
some $1.5 trillion (957.6 billion pounds) on infrastructure over the
next decade which is fundamental to managing fast economic growth and
a growing population of 1.2 billion.
DENGUE EPIDEMIC, SECURITY LAPSES
World discus champion Dani Samuels of Australia pulled out of the
Games because of security and health concerns, as did England’s world
triple jump champion Phillips Idowu.
Four other champions have quit for various reasons, including
injuries, in the last 24 hours.
“Sorry people, but I have children to think about. My safety is more
important to them than a medal,” Idowu wrote on his Twitter feed.
Triple Olympic sprint champion Usain Bolt of Jamaica is the highest
profile athlete to skip the event.
An epidemic of Dengue, in part blamed on stagnant water around
unfinished construction sites, has hit Delhi and thousands of people
are being treated in hospital.
Many residents are fleeing Delhi during the Games, worried about
security and traffic chaos.
Only days after two foreign visitors were shot and wounded by unknown
assailants in Delhi, Australian TV broadcast how a reporter bought
bomb making devices to smuggle through security points. Indian police
denied he ever crossed a checkpoint.
Highlighting how the Games has become a political minefield for a
government already reeling under high inflation, officials from Prime
Minister Manmohan Singh’s office toured the village.
“The prime minister is of course extremely concerned,” Cabinet
Secretary K.M. Chandrasekhar, who is overseeing the preparations, told
CNN-IBN.
So far 77-year-old Singh, who took charge of monitoring the
preparations a month ago after criticism of missed deadlines, has
remained silent, underscoring what critics say is his out-of-touch
leadership.
Sporting power Australia backed the Commonwealth Games on Wednesday
and many venues, including the main Jawaharlal Nehru stadium, have
been praised as world-class.
Officials note that other events, such as the 2004 Athens Olympics,
were dogged by problems but turned out fine.
However, Canada’s Games team said it might delay the arrival of some
of its athletes if adequate accommodation was not available.
New Zealand Olympic Committee officials have arrived in Delhi to
inspect facilities and security.
“I think if the Commonwealth Games didn’t go ahead, that could have
significant implications for the future of the Commonwealth Games, and
that’s not something we’d like to see,” New Zealand Prime Minister
John Key told reporters.
Indian officials defended their record.
“Please try to understand … They want certain standards of hygiene,
they want certain standards of cleanliness, which may differ from my
standard,” said Lalit Bhanot, spokesman of the Delhi organising
committee.
(Reporting by Reuters bureau in New Delhi; Writing by Alistair
Scrutton and Paul de Bendern; Editing by Ken Ferris)
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
22/09/2010
« Rats are the First to Jump Sinking Ship
SPierce
"navanavonmilita" <baku...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:52c05a99-dd6b-4a0f...@q2g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...
Cyber War, Here I, Oops, America Comes
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/22/cyber-war-here-i-oops-america-comes/
(snipped)
We don’t know when or if a cyberattack rises to the level of an ‘armed
attack.’
# It's easier to understand if you define first what is the * purpose * of
any attack. Is it just some individual nut with a purpose or is it a
government paid employee or employees with a purpose.
So then ANY attack of ANY kind then has significance, whether photographing
buildings, aquiring weapons, or attempting to hack into computers. As soon
as you detect government behind something odd happening, look out for the
next step. There is a pattern to war. This is what historians find out
down the line.
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/23/chicago-chicago-that-wonderful-town/
No fan of Rahm Rahm ‘em . . .
September 23, 2010
BY MICHAEL SNEED Sun-Times Columnist
Rahm just got rammed. Legendary feminist Gloria Steinem is not only
shocked . . . shocked . . . shocked there aren’t more women running
for Mayor Daley’s job, but she is NO fan of mayoral hopeful Rahm
Emanuel.
u Plug ‘em: “I campaigned against him [Rahm] for Congress and I’d be
happy to campaign against him for mayor,” said Steinem, who claims she
disagrees with Emanuel on many issues relating to women.
u Press ‘em: Steinem, accompanied by actress/buddy Jennifer Beals, who
is starring in the upcoming Chicago-based TV series “Ride Along,” was
in town Wednesday promoting the Women’s Media Center, a vehicle to
“positively impact the visibility of women in the media.”
The Palin file . . .
$$$$: What price tea? Sneed’s abacus is clicking up numbers like $40
million-plus annually filling the pocketbook of Tea Party favorite
Sarah Palin. Amazing.
The Jackson story . . .
Dateline: The hard line . . . It’s a safe bet U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson
Jr.’s political future is dicey since reports surfaced of his
dalliance with a nightclub hostess — in the midst of a fed probe
involving the alleged sale of President Obama’s old Senate seat.
u The femme side: It’s also a safe bet Jackson’s vivacious wife, 7th
ward Ald. Sandi Jackson — who has worked hard supporting the
transformation of the old U.S. Steel plant site into what has been
described as one of the most significant economic-development projects
in the United States — plans to run for re-election.
Ay caramba!
Sneed hears a Hispanic caucus primarily composed of Chicago aldermen
met recently to decide whom to endorse for mayor . . . and word is
they wound up endorsing themselves!
Film flam . . .
It should come as no surprise uber rich guy Warren Buffett was an
invited guest at the premiere of the Michael Douglas/Gordon Gekko
“Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps” film.
Gulp!
First lady Michelle Obama, on a nationwide campaign to battle
childhood obesity — in addition to hitting the hustings for mid-term
Dem candidates nationwide — is fielding a request by goofball fitness
guru Richard Simmons to help her wage war.
Vote ‘em . . .
Sneed is told actor Vince Vaughn, who is very proud of his Chicago
roots and loves filming here, is so eager to vote in the Nov. 2 mid-
term elections, he overnighted the form to his hometown Chicago
Election Board, updating his voter registration. “He apparently wanted
to make certain it would get there on time,” said a Sneed source.
u Postscript: Voters have until Oct. 5 to file name and address
updates ahead of the Nov. 2 midterm elections.
Hawk squawk . . .
Blackhawks coach Joel Quenneville compared mustaches with TV
motorcycle guru Paul Teutul Sr. at the United Center recently.
u Dress ‘em: Teutul, the star of reality TV series “American Chopper”
who’s building a special Blackhawks bike to be auctioned for charity,
even got suited up in the Hawks locker room. Trust me, it wasn’t a
pretty picture.
A music note . . .
Legendary musician Quincy Jones, 77, told London’s Guardian newspaper
his closest friends are dying at an alarming rate: 174 pals in the
last four years. Yipes!
Tiger tips . . .
At last peek, golfing cad Tiger Woods’ ex-wife Elin Nordegren was
hoping to open a counseling center for children of divorce.
Say whaaa . . .
Sorry, Nate: Sneed must have been smoking posies when noting estranged
political wife Elizabeth Edwards, instead of actress/author Jamie Lee
Curtis, would appear on the “Nate Berkus Show” this Friday.
Sneedlings . . .
U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia dining with DePaul
University President Rev. Dennis H. Holtschneider and Ald. Ed Burke
and wife, Justice Anne Burke, at the Trump Tower Wednesday night . . .
Today’s birthdays: Bruce Springsteen, 61, and Jason Alexander, 51.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews
23/09/2010
« Look, who is Talking
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/23/thus-spake-uncle-sam-oops-obama/
Uncle Obama Speaketh
Published 12:29 23.09.10
Latest update 12:29 23.09.10
Obama to warn UN of alternatives to Mideast peace
U.S. President: If no agreement reached, hard realities of demography
will take hold and more blood will be shed.
By Natasha Mozgovaya and Haaretz Service
Tags: Israel news Barack Obama Palestinians Middle East peace
U.S. President Barack Obama is due to speak at the United Nations’
annual ministerial meeting in New York on Thursday afternoon, and
express the urgency for an Israeli-Palestinian peace deal.
U.S. President Barack Obama speaking in New York on September 22,
2010.
Photo by: AP
“If an agreement is not reached, Palestinians will never know the
pride and dignity that comes with their own state. Israelis will never
know the certainty and security that comes with sovereign and stable
neighbors who are committed to co-existence,” Obama will tell the UN
General Assembly, according to excerpts released ahead of his planned
speech on Thursday.
“The hard realities of demography will take hold. More blood will be
shed. This Holy Land will remain a symbol of our differences, instead
of our common humanity.”
Obama expressed deep hope in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process and
the imminent establishment of a Palestinian state.
“When we come back here next year, we [could] have an agreement that
will lead to a new member of the United Nations – an independent state
of Palestine, living in peace with Israel.”
The U.S. president defended Israel’s right to exist, and expressed the
United States’ support for its ally.
“Those who long to see an independent Palestine rise must stop trying
to tear Israel down,” Obama said.
“Israel’s existence must not be a subject for debate. Israel is a
sovereign state, and the historic homeland of the Jewish people,”
Obama said. “It should be clear to all that efforts to chip away at
Israel’s legitimacy will only be met by the unshakeable opposition of
the United States.”
Obama condemned the bloodshed surrounding the conflict, and lauded
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas for engaging in talks
instead of violence.
“And efforts to threaten or kill Israelis will do nothing to help the
Palestinian people – the slaughter of innocent Israelis is not
resistance, it is injustice. Make no mistake: the courage of a man
like President Abbas – who stands up for his people in front of the
world – is far greater than those who fire rockets at innocent women
and children.”
“The conflict between Israelis and Arabs is as old as this
institution… We can waste more time by carrying forward an argument
that will not help a single Israeli or Palestinian child achieve a
better life…Or, we can say that this time will be different.”
Obama is scheduled to deliver his speech to the UN General Assembly at
4 P.M. local time (10 A.M. EDT).
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
23/09/2010
« Chicago, Chicago That Wonderful Town
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/23/delhi-cwg__snafu-situation-normal-all-fucked-up/
Indian Sports Showcase Turns Into Fiasco
By ROBERT MACKEY
September 23, 2010, 11:35 am
Indian Sports Showcase Turns Into Fiasco
By ROBERT MACKEY
BBC
A photograph provided to the BBC this week by someone who inspected
accommodations for Commonwealth Games athletes in Delhi this week
showed animal paw prints on a bed.
Updated | 12:57 p.m. An Indian official apologized on Thursday for
what he called “a collective failure” by the organizers of the
Commonwealth Games, a sporting event due to start in 10 days in Delhi
that has been beset by problems.
Teams from several nations have delayed their trips to India after
advance delegations reported unsanitary conditions in the athletes’
village, and the collapse of a pedestrian bridge and part of the
ceiling at one venue raised concerns about safety.
Speaking to India’s NDTV on Thursday, next to a headline that read,
“Collapsing Games, the Joke’s on India,” the treasurer of the
organizing committee for the Delhi games, A.K. Mattoo, said, “I feel
sad, we are sorry for whatever has happened, directly or indirectly by
us or by one of the stakeholders.”
After listing five other government agencies that have been also
involved in the preparations for the games, he added: “I genuinely
feel sorry for whatever has happened and would like to apologize, not
only on our part — the part of the organizing committee — but
everybody else connected…. This is a collective failure.”
As India’s prime minister, Manmohan Singh, got involved in the effort
to make sure the games will go ahead, officials from Australia, Wales
and Scotland told reporters that they expect to send their athletes
after all.
This year’s edition of the games, which are held every four years for
athletes from countries that used to be part of the British Empire,
was supposed to have been a showcase for modern India, but concerns
about accommodations being “unfit for human habitation” were raised
this week after advance teams were allowed inside apartments
constructed for the athletes.
Reporters have been kept at a distance from the apartments but
photographs shot this week and provided to the BBC show exposed
electrical wiring running through pools of stagnant water, collapsed
walkways, dirty bathrooms and animal paw prints on beds.
Reporting from Delhi for the BBC, Sanjoy Majumder wrote this week that
what is outside the apartments might be more worrying than what is
inside:
The village itself has been built on the banks of the Yamuna River.
Just outside it are pools of green, stagnant water left over from
flooding after Delhi’s worst monsoon in three decades. It’s a breeding
ground for mosquitoes and has raised fears of disease — there have
been nearly 100 cases of dengue fever over the past month.
In an interview with Britain’s Channel 4 News on Wednesday, Novy
Kapadia, an Indian sports journalist, said that the problems stemmed
from “trying to compete with China, saying that we’ll do a
Commonwealth Games that will be better than the Olympics in China —
which in its own way was quite absurd; it’s a different political
system over there [and] they started much earlier.”
He added that “multiple authorities” in Delhi, “got very greedy and
ambitious,” in “competing with China, trying to redo the whole of
Delhi,” rather than simply concentrating on new sports stadiums and
roads around them. “There was no point in trying to restore Connaught
Place and getting overambitious and then not finishing anything. That
has become the problem for the Commonwealth Games: you tried to climb
a mountain; you couldn’t even climb the hill.”
Mr. Mattoo’s apologetic comments on behalf of the organizers marked a
sharp departure from remarks made two days earlier by Lalit Bhanot,
the committee’s general secretary, who told reporters on Thuesday,
“everyone has a different standard of cleanliness. The rooms of the
games village are clean according to you and me, but they have some
other standard of cleanliness.”
That remark led one NDTV reporter, Sonali Chander, to comment on
Twitter that it was “shocking how senior officials make idiotic
comments.”
Arguments among officials from other nations and the Indian organizers
have spilled into the open this week, but problems have been obvious
for some time. Earlier this month, one Indian sports star, Saina
Nehwal, was forced to apologize for telling reporters that “looking at
the stadiums and looking at the progress, I don’t really think we are
capable of holding such big tournaments, because I’ve seen many games,
like the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne and the Olympic Games in
China — compared to that it’s not up to the mark.”
26 Readers’ Comments
1.AER
Cambridge, England
September 23rd, 2010 11:12 am
India wants to be world player? Well welcome to the world, we’re
watching and we’re not gullible.
Recommended by 9 Readers
2.archibald74
Brighton
September 23rd, 2010 11:13 am
What a missed opportunity for India as a future (current?) economic
power house.
China knew the importance of the Olympics and set about giving the
impression – not just to viewers but also businesses and investors –
that it was a country that could get things done, and do them well.
India, no doubt with the same intentions at the back of its mind,
started far too late and this combined with some last minute bad
weather means disaster potentially looms. Certainly, even if venues
are finished many won’t have the basic tests done over a period of
months that you would expect. The effect of this will be pretty much
the exact opposite as that the Olympics had for China.
Sadly, with the spotlight of the world now upon them, issues such as
child labor are now also emerging, it was reported on the BBC earlier
that the inhabitants of New Delhi have known child labor was being
used since the building began.
The Indian government must rue the day they decided to bid for the
games.
Recommended by 5 Readers
3.CheshireCat
Chicago
September 23rd, 2010 11:13 am
Anyone who has been to India can see that it is simply not on the same
level as China. In fact, the crumbling infrastructure just seems to
get worse. Part of the problem is the exploding population that the
authorities just don’t seem to think is a problem. With 800 million
people living under the poverty level, how can the country advance?
China has been continuously lambasted for its one child policy, but
the effects of unchecked population growth is plain to see.
When I keet reading articles by pundits that India is going to surpass
China because of it’s “vibrant democracy” or some other feel-good
reason, I just keep shaking my head in disbelief.
Recommended by 24 Readers
4.sha
NYC
September 23rd, 2010 11:13 am
A corrupt political system is an embarassement to the hard working,
highly intelligent people of Delhi and India.
I hope it leads to an honest evaluation of corruption and graft as a
true impedient to National success. Democracy is messy — but this it
shouldn’t be slovenly.
Recommended by 12 Readers
5.intcamd
NJ
September 23rd, 2010 11:19 am
What a shame!
We held the Asian games in 198[2] and that was a better show; looks
like we regressed
The country and the government needs to take care of its people,
provide for the minimum basics of life, improve infrastructure all
over the country, and make sure its citizens are protected before
embarking on misadventures like this. However, no one will be held
accountable, partcicularly those who are truly culpable. They will
likely find some small fry scapegoats w/o political cover.
Recommended by 6 Readers
6.ACW
New Jersey
September 23rd, 2010 12:05 pm
There are animal paw prints on my bed. So what? (Admittedly, they were
made by my cat, whom I know, rather than by an unknown intruder; but
it seems a bit squeamish of them nonetheless.)
Recommended by 0 Readers
7.lakshmi97
Maharashtra
September 23rd, 2010 12:05 pm
The Common Wealth games village showcases what the rest of India is to
day, in shambles, and yes unfit for human habitation, North South East
and West, thanks to our inept Government and the unbelievable
corruption thriving at every level, which ensures that India will
remain forever a slum that is aspiring to be a super power.
In a way it is good that this happened. By being globally exposed days
before this international event, at least now the power hungry
dictators in Delhi, who buy the votes from the gullible , poor,
illiterate masses at election time, show the good grace to quit their
dirty games, which perhaps might get them the gold for down right
fraud!
Recommended by 2 Readers
8.The Noted Bloggist
Southern CA
September 23rd, 2010 12:05 pm
I hope India manages to fix all the problems and have a successful
tournament. Good luck!
Recommended by 1 Readers
9.Tamza
California
September 23rd, 2010 12:05 pm
India is/ has been a false facade. IITs are talked of as the MIT of
east. I have seen MIT, and IIT is no MIT. You take the cream of the
crop, and compare with the average, and you will appear great up to a
point. You claim to be the world’s largest democracy, yet you have
oppressive rule in one of the states, at the very foundadtion. Not a
true democracy … when things go against what you want. You kill
innocent protestors. The failure of the games, and I dont see HOW they
can go on is just one more indicator of a rotten to the core corrupt
facade. I have been saying for at least 7 years, and say it again,
this outsourcing of backoffice work to India is a big mistake: there
is no quality control, no provacy control. Only cost control was the
driving force, and that is no longer true.
Recommended by 2 Readers
10.Joe A
New York, NY
September 23rd, 2010 12:07 pm
I don’t think there’s an Indian in the world right now who isn’t
cowering with shame at the mention of CWG. Our Government has failed
us, and we (and the Indian media) have failed our country by not being
more proactive back when it could have produced some real results.
This should, in the least, inject some humility into us, and put us in
our place — that being of a very distant second to China in Asia, in
terms of infrastructure and planning (the backbones of a successful
industrialised nation), with plenty more to learn and do before we can
claim the recognition we vie for.
This was never a project to be entrusted upon the giant, bureaucratic,
corruption-ridden machine that is the Indian government. Was there any
pre-construction planning at all? Red flags would have popped up long
time ago. tsk tsk. It should have been outsourced to private firms or
technocrats like E Sreedharan with a proven record.
I hope this at least makes us get out of our “chalta hai” attitude and
tidy up our act. I can go on and on about work culture, respect,
accountability, civic sense and the rest, but I’m beginning to sound
like a broken record. The damage is done, I hope there’s enough
“passable” work done for the games to go ahead as planned without any
more embarrassments.
Recommended by 3 Readers
11.duriseti
California
September 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm
I’m embarrassed to be an Indian Ex-pat.
CheshireCat hit the nail on the head. The crumbling infrastructure and
poor quality of construction, even current, is self-evident. In fact,
I would argue that along with urban congestion, it is the most
noticable feature of a swing through any Indian city.
Corruption is rampant.
Population growth since independence — tripled. Hindu-Muslim
animosities and suspicion contributed to inaction on this) front. This
same population growth is a threat to global prosperity — not just
India’s.
Illiteracy, especially in the Northern states, is endemic.
Absolutely shameful. The worst part of it is that the average mind-
numbingly stupid and corrupt Indian bureaucrat will barely feel a
twinge of shame for their obvious failures.
Recommended by 2 Readers
12.coolobserver
Californina
September 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm
Corruption is the SOLE problem behind it. As an NRI I can easily
imagine that every construction company/supplier involved saw this as
a chance to make millions supplying lowest quality materials/work at
highest cost. Another factor is absolute lack of infrastructure at
every level but that is also a result of decades of corruption and
failed socio-economic policies meant more for grand-standing to the
voting public than actually improving the country. You can’t bribe
nature!! No quality, bridges will collapse…unless the educated class
wakes up in India from its selfish indifference, and unless the
political system is cleaned inside out thoroughly (I am told more than
80% of India’s members of parliment have at least one criminal case
against them including for murders, and convictions, jail time!) there
is absolutely no hope for India to amount to anything in the socio-
economic-political global forum. The only thing left to impress the
world with is the original ancient Indian culture which also they are
very busy killing in the name of vote-politics catering to so-called
minority religions.
Recommended by 1 Readers
13.Rudolph
New York, NY
September 23rd, 2010 12:08 pm
The Yamuna River has not been in existence since Delhi expanded 10
fold and history was no more (50 years ago). Instead the sudden
increase in population, needing the water badly, have changed that
river into a 1000 mile long swamp totally destroying the beauty of the
Taj Mahal and creating serious health problems of millions of people.
Certainly the Common Wealth Nations, all of whom obviously have
visited India on many occasions, must have known that. Also all of
them must have gotten stuck in heavy traffic in Delhi or Bombay
itself, not because of the many cars but because of different rules of
the traffic police (their sense of judgement of ”right-of-way” is
based on the importance and seniority of the driver rather than the
yellow-or-red of the traffic lights thus creating hour long delays,
and collective anger of the drivers). India is India, the most
fascinating country on earth, but a place you don’t visit for pleasure
and relaxation as per western standards but for experience and memory.
The same unexpected frustrations are now obvious in the lack of
readiness of the Common Wealth Games. But don’t just blame it on the
Indians. The entire Common Wealth is equally guilty because they all
know India or are just plain naive.
Recommended by 1 Readers
14.Jughead
SXM
September 23rd, 2010 12:09 pm
It’s not only New Delhi, the entire country is a slum. Corruption is
endemic.
Nobody cares. Despite all this blatant corruption, nobody has been
charged everybody is just trying to sweep the stinking filth of
corruption under the rug.
Recommended by 1 Readers
15.elayne
DC
September 23rd, 2010 12:09 pm
China had total sovereignty over all the planning that went into the
Olympics. They can just kick someone out of their home, doesn’t have
to worry about environmental problems or what the press will say or if
they will lose an election because they were to heavy handed to their
citizens. India is not perfect and has a long way to go but the people
are free to petition their government and vote out those they don’t
like. Democracy is hard work but worth it. Democratic nations often
take one step back for every two steps forward but in the long run it
is more sustainable. I wonder how many people India detained or sent
home for complaining about the situation.
How do you think China handled people that went against the party line
at the Olympics?
Recommended by 3 Readers
16.Jeff
L.A.
September 23rd, 2010 12:10 pm
The biggest hurdle for India is the Indian mind set. India took some
of the worst attributes of Imperial Britain and colonialism and fused
them onto their caste society. China was able to make a clean break
with it’s decaying past by basically executing or exiling all the so
called class enemies or retros. India on the other hand has layers and
layers of decaying culture and behavior that is almost immune to
change.
Recommended by 0 Readers
17.Tim
Texas
September 23rd, 2010 12:13 pm
Four decades of socialism has left a legacy of corruption and
incompetence. Hopefully, events like this will force India to confront
the culture of multiple interfering agencies and a lack of
responsibility all round.
#3 Cheshire Cat: India has far less than 800 million poor; you loose
credibility when your statistics are so totally wrong.
Recommended by 0 Readers
Robert Mackey
Reporter, New York Times
September 23rd, 2010 12:13 pm
India’s population is estimated at far more than 800,000 – more 1.1
billion, according to the World Bank.18.PRASHANT
BOSTON
September 23rd, 2010 12:13 pm
IM NOT SURPRISED. THIS IS INDIA, CORRUPTION AT ITS BEST WITH THE
POLITICIANS EITHER APOLOGIZING OR MAKING A REMARK OF THE BRIDGE THAT
COLLAPSED THAT IT WAS NOT MEANT FOR ATHLETES OR STAFF…..BUT “FOR THE
COMMON MAN”……
WELCOME TO INDIA, CORRUPTION AT ITS BEST
Recommended by 1 Readers
19.Practical Dude
New York, NY
September 23rd, 2010 12:14 pm
India finally had to confront the high standards prevalent among the
best around the world. And we’re seeing, in examples such as this
shameful failure, that India is ripping away the blindfold they’ve
been wearing since the time they kicked out the British in 1947. It’s
one thing to say “we’re great, we have a long and rich history, etc”,
but it’s quite another to actually prove yourself where the rubber
meets the road. This fiasco of the Commonwealth Games shows what is
abundantly clear to most people visiting India or doing business there
– large scale incompetence, dull headed ways of thinking, corruption,
an unproductive laissez-faire attitude when asked to accomplish tasks.
India better shape up, or else the world, meaning the real world that
expects real results, will continue to kick its behind.
Recommended by 3 Readers
20.My 2 Cents
Blacksburg, Va.
September 23rd, 2010 12:14 pm
The people of India can be bright and industrious. However, its
government and bureaucracy are large, inept and, more importantly,
very corrupt. There are well meaning individuals in public service who
have the spirit and intent to serve, but these are lost souls in a
culture that teaches that getting ahead by making do and cutting
corners is necessary to flourish. Eventually, the Indian system holds
its people and nation back, indeed in many ways it holds the nation
backward.
The Commonwealth Games fiasco is a shame and a potential blot.
However, it could also be a learning experience if those involved are
ethically reflective. They should pause and examine issues related to
their lackadaisical performance, the use of child labor, the
unsanitary habitation with which they welcome their visitors, and
their reluctance to attend to true service.
If some in India consider that a comparison with China is odious, then
consider that South Africa was on the world stage only recently.
Nations are able to organize and project themselves effectively no
matter how large or small they are, and no matter what the extent of
their many problems is.
India should also be able to also do so. It can redeem itself just as
its democratic traditions help it do so every few years.
Recommended by 1 Readers
21.Mrinal Jhangiani
Edgemont, NY
September 23rd, 2010 12:15 pm
I am not surprised at all. The CW games will get cancelled and no one
will be held accountable. Indians will shout about it a bit and in a
couple of months all will be forgotten.
India, its politicians, elite businessmen and all urban Indians only
know how to point fingers, and pass the buck and the blame.They are
best at playing the blame game rather then making an effort to change
their neighborhood, their schools, their communities and the country
at large. But, charity starts at home.
Let me give you an example of what I mean – Gurgaon is home to some of
the largest multinational corporations headquarters in the region,
Google, Microsoft, Amex, Oracle, HP, just to name a few – yet outside
their swanky offices in Cyber City – their main access roads are
infested with mosquito puddles, Gigantic potholes, bullock carts,
buffaloes, goats, people spitting, urinating – you name it. It is a
nightmare. Why cant these companies spend just a few hundred thousand
dollars to hire contractors and get it fixed. I know the pat answer –
Its not their problem, its the builders (DLF) responsibility.
Another eg. Mumbai – Malabar hill has some of the most expensive
apartments in the world (Average apartment costs a million dollars –
the real expensive ones can go upwards of 15 million) Yet outside
these very same posh buildings you will find rubble, smelly garbage
and slums, the garbage having come from the building itself. The
residents say it is not their responsibility its the Municipal
corporations responsibility, when any one of those residents could
spend a few thousand dollars and have garbage disposed off properly
for the year.
India doesn’t need anything except a sound spanking and some
discipline – and Indians need to take a hard look in the mirror and
see the ugly reflection.
I am sorry for this pent up tirade – I left India 26 years ago, but I
go back for work several times a year. I am so saddened at what has
become of the country I still want to call home.
Why do Indians keep blaming their politicians. If the average educated
Indian said no more, and then got off their butts and collectively got
involved in managing and running the country, we wouldnt have this
situation where the Games will have to be cancelled.
All Indians are to blame for this failure and embarassment – if you
know there is a problm and look the other way – then sadly but truly
your apathy is as much the problem as the politicians corruption.
Recommended by 4 Readers
22.manbearpig
Waukesha, WI
September 23rd, 2010 12:15 pm
They should just cancel the whole thing. Melbourne has already offered
to host the games if Delhi pulls out.
It would just be humiliation if it gets cancelled. If they go ahead
and, say, a stadium roof or a sportsperson accommodation highrise
collapses during the next rain, that wound would be very hard to heal.
In hindsight, Chennai, Mumbai, Bangalore or Hyderabad should have bid
for the games. Delhi is the corruption capital of a very corrupt
India.
Recommended by 1 Readers
23.Kailash
Herndon, Va
September 23rd, 2010 12:15 pm
Main Problem is Indian Olympic Committee which is responsible for the
games . Its head Suresh Kalmadi and his team have looted the money of
Govt. of India by giving contracts to the companies which doesnt have
any experience . Govt. of India has failed to monitor the organising
committee and it ended up in this state . This shows how corruption
has spoiled everything in my country .
Recommended by 0 Readers
24.Marc Bissou
Folsom, CA
September 23rd, 2010 12:15 pm
Even if these sporting event is not properly staged, I don’t think it
will impact the economic growth or the foreign investment in India.
The growing market of Middle class Indian is also too large to be
ignored by corporations around the world. India may not be China, but
does provide growth. And the fact that infrastructure is bad, is an
incentive for construction companies to bid for improving that. The
Indian government has already being outsourcing the development of its
Airports to world consortiums from Singapore and Germany. So I am sure
many more projects will be in the pipeline.
Recommended by 0 Readers
25.RC
Pompano Beach FL
September 23rd, 2010 12:17 pm
Per the article: Lalit Bhanot, the committee’s general secretary, who
told reporters on Thuesday, “everyone has a different standard of
cleanliness. The rooms of the games village are clean according to you
and me, but “they” have some other standard of cleanliness.
”The “they” that is referred to is the rest of the civilized world…
and yes… we do have some other standard of cleanliness… and are
justified in having it.
Working for an airline, my relative has been to India several times
and has had many layovers there that comprise many days, over the
years. She is eclectic, open minded, and loves cultural interaction…
one of the primary reasons of her choice to become a flight attendant
on an international carrier.
Her experience there was gratifying and interesting in some ways. She
is glad to have had the exposure,(no pun intended)… but her general
take is that the standards there are far below that of the west
regarding virtually everything. Her descriptions are best summed up
as: the Taj Mahal is great…deplorable conditions… substandard…
unsanitary… dirty… no desire to ever return there… plan your vacation
to another destination… you’ll be disappointed, and other likewise
comments.
We can look for the reasons why this is the case, but reasons are
inconsequential to people from the international community who arrive
in India as tourists, guests, dignitaries, business men/women, or
athletes. This is a serious blow to any sought after prestige by India
within the international community. Their embarrassment and
humiliation is well deserved as a result of this debacle.
Mr. Mahoot is to be commended for having the gumption to apologize,
which, seems quite sincere to me. His shame is evident, and I can
empathize with him.
Let the Games begin!… perhaps after a nights good sleep in between
clean and sanitary sheets.
Recommended by 0 Readers
26.ScottNYCSeptember 23rd, 20101:17 pm
The British are offering advice on levels of cleanliness? LOL
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News, Views and Reviews
23/09/2010
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Social Network" opens in NY to buzz, controversy</a>
Stars of the film ''The Social Network'' (L-R) Jesse Eisenberg, Andrew
Garfield and Justin Timberlake present an award at the 2010 MTV Video
Music Awards in Los Angeles, California September 12, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Mike Blake
By Christine Kearney
NEW YORK | Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:27pm EDT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Billed as an exhilarating, visceral tale about
the founding of Facebook, "The Social Network" gave the opening of the
New York Film Festival on Friday an aura of anticipation and a touch
of controversy.
The film has attracted widespread attention with its assertion that it
tells the true story of the birth of the website -- which now boasts
more than 500 million members and is worth tens of billions. Yet, it
is based on a book criticized for its reporting methods.
One of the most talked about films of the year, "The Social Network"
was transformed into a movie by Hollywood heavyweight director David
Fincher and writer Aaron Sorkin. It has brought an unusual pizzazz to
the 17-day film festival, which typically emphasizes the art of cinema
over Hollywood-style premieres.
"This movie is absolutely a true story, but with the catch that people
disagree about what the truth was and the movie takes no position on
what the truth is. It presents everybody's story," Sorkin, best known
for his TV hit "The West Wing," told Reuters.
The movie opens across the United States October 1, telling the rags-
to-riches tale of how Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg was
transformed from an intelligent, socially awkward Harvard University
student to the hottest property in Silicon Valley for creating the
online community.
It intersperses scenes of depositions taken for lawsuits by
Zuckerberg's former best friend and Facebook co-founder Eduardo
Saverin, as well as by Olympic rowing twin brothers and former Harvard
students Tyler and Cameron Winklevoss.
Both lawsuits resulted in undisclosed large settlements.
Zuckerberg, now 26, is not expected at Friday's premiere. He refused
to cooperate with the film and told Oprah Winfrey on her chat show on
Friday, "It's a movie, it's fun" but his life was not so dramatic.
Now worth $6.9 billion according to Forbes, Zuckerberg announced a
$100 million donation to Newark, New Jersey schools on Friday,
deflecting some media attention from the film's premiere.
ZUCKERBERG, PRICKLY & SMART
Zuckerberg also refused to cooperate with the book upon which the film
is based, Ben Mezrich's "The Accidental Billionaires -- The Founding
of Facebook, A Tale of Sex, Money, Genius and Betrayal." Some critics
blasted it as frivolous for featuring too much narrative and not
enough fact.
The movie stars 26-year-old Jesse Eisenberg as Zuckerberg, Andrew
Garfield as Facebook CFO Saverin, and Justin Timberlake as Napster
creator and Internet wunderkind Sean Parker. None of the characters
are portrayed in an altogether positive light.
Fincher, know for such hit movies as "Fight Club," Se7en" and "The
Curious Case of Benjamin Button," said he knew the film would be
controversial when he took it on, but he refused to do a "cuddly"
portrayal of Zuckerberg.
"I knew it was controversial," said Fincher. "I like the fact that he
is prickly and smarter than everybody and makes no apologies for it."
Fincher declined to say if he views the movie as a true story or a
work of fiction, saying only that fact-based movies have to take the
perspective of certain characters.
Whether fact or fiction, early reviews have been good. Critic Todd
McCarthy said of the movie, "Everything about it is rich." And the
quick-witted and speedy dialogue of Sorkin's script has garnered early
Oscar chatter.
Fincher said the film addressed wider themes of friendship, loyalty,
jealousy and power.
"It's not the story of a website, it's the story of a time and a place
and the friendship, a bunch of dreamers and a bunch of people who saw
what the future was going to be like, and tried to capitalize on it
and the acrimony that broke out between them," said Fincher.
(editing by Mark Egan and Bob Tourtellotte)
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/
idUSTRE68E63720100916">Facebook gets movie treatments as social media
hits high</a>
Jesse Eisenberg as Mark Zuckerberg in a scene from ''The Social
Network''.
Credit: Reuters/Columbia Pictures
By Zorianna Kit
LOS ANGELES | Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:54pm EDT
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Facebook hits the silver screen this fall with
two movies coming out within weeks of each other at a time when social
media is at an all-time high.
Independent documentary "Catfish" and glitzy Hollywood feature "The
Social Network" couldn't be more different. But both could very well
be two sides of the same coin.
"We've gotten to a point where it's time to reflect on it," said
"Catfish" filmmaker Ariel Schulman.
"'The Social Network' shows us how we got here. 'Catfish' shows us
where we're at."
Facebook is the most popular social networking site in the world with
over 500 million active users. Sites like MySpace, microblogging site
Twitter, and Tumblr are also thriving, creating an intricate online
world where everything from dating websites to video game communities
have users who put their personal lives out on public display.
As "Catfish" illustrates, not everyone on these sites is who they say
they are.
"Catfish", which opens in U.S. theaters on Friday, follows Nev
Schulman, a photographer who falls in love with a girl on Facebook.
Over time, their romance blossoms and they begin to text and talk on
the phone.
When Nev, his brother Ariel and their friend Henry discover some
startling revelations, they set off on a road trip to meet the girl in
person.
"The Social Network," arrives on October 1, with a pedigree that
includes Oscar-nominated David Fincher directing from a screenplay by
the four-time Emmy Award winning Aaron Sorkin.
The film is based on Ben Mezrich's book "The Accidental Billionaires:
The Founding of Facebook, A Tale of Sex, Money, Genius, and Betrayal."
Chief executive Mark Zuckerberg, now 26, is played by Jesse Eisenberg.
"It's interesting that these two movies are coming out at the same
time," said Schulman, who directed "Catfish" with Henry Joost.
"We are however many years in to the social networking phenomenon and
I think it has hit a tipping point," he said.
Schulman, along with Joost, shot his brother Nev's 2008 real-life
romance and road trip to visit the girl of his dreams. He felt there
is now a sort of "collective subconscious" around Facebook.
Schulman likens social networks to a "collection of avatars" where
users put up "ideal versions of themselves" for others to see.
"We each play the role of our own personal publicist that way," he
noted, cautioning that because of that, "you can't go online naively."
"You've got to protect yourself," said Schulman. "Everyone has
different intentions."
Ironically for an actor portraying the man now in charge of Facebook
in "Social Network," Eisenberg himself is not a Facebook user, nor
does he ever plan to be.
"If you're in a public setting like (actors) are, you come to really
value your privacy," he said.
However, Eisenberg is quick to point out that it's not "the medium
that's the danger, it's the people using the medium" and that's why
he's chosen to stay off it.
Though Nev Schulman says he doesn't feel completely protected from his
"Catfish" situation happening again, he says he has no regrets about
his Facebook romance.
"I ended up going on a great life experience with my brother and my
dear friend Henry," said Nev Schulman.
What was real, were the life lessons that came with all that.
"I now have a better understanding of what I thought I wanted, what I
really want and what's important insofar as my relationships with
friends and family," he said. "This experience has allowed me to grow
and change for the better."
(Editing by Jill Serjeant)
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6881KY20100909">How
Facebook got involved in human rights film</a>
By Alex Ben Block
Thu Sep 9, 2010 7:17am EDT
LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - A harrowing trip to Africa cemented
a filmmaker's bond with Facebook and created a new way for human
rights activists to spread the word -- while promoting the social
networking site's month-old streaming video channel.
A week into Michealene Cristini Risley's trip to the Republic of
Zimbabwe in August 2007 to make a documentary exposing sexual abuse by
men who believed raping virgin girls would cure their HIV/AIDS, the
Bay Area filmmaker was arrested on trumped-up charges and thrown into
prison -- putting her in danger of being raped herself.
After three days, an American journalist who read about Risley's
predicament on her Facebook page alerted a CIA agent, who made a call
to Zimbabwe president Robert Mugabe. She was released unharmed and
fled the country with her HD footage.
On September 28, Risley will be at Facebook headquarters in Palo Alto,
Calif., to thank its employees for the company's role in her release
and to go on Facebook's LIVE streaming video channel to share her
story and answer questions. It's all part of the coordinated launch of
the documentary, "Tapestries of Hope," that came out of her trip.
Her Facebook appearance, which will be available for replay after the
initial airing, serves as the centerpiece of an innovative marketing
and promotional strategy employing new media -- especially social
media -- as well as a limited theatrical release, cable TV and in-
theater ads and hundreds of house parties, all to raise awareness of
the issue and encourage Congress to pass the International Violence
Against Women Act, now winding its way through the U.S. Senate.
It also marks a nice promotional moment for Facebook as "The Social
Network" -- the David Fincher film about the origins of the company --
gets ready to hit theaters without the cooperation of Facebook.
"We're taking all the different platforms and putting them together to
use them in the best possible way," said Risley, who has told the
story of her own childhood sexual abuse in a book and exposed the
problem of sexual abuse in America in the 2005 short film
"Flashcards."
Now married and the mother of three boys, Risley said that for her,
"Tapestries" "is a mission, not a movie."
To serve that mission, she has put together a coalition that includes
Brainstorm Media of Beverly Hills (and its Something to Talk About
documentary program), the Family Violence Prevention Fund, CARE and
advocacy group Women Thrive Worldwide.
The effort includes promotions on Facebook's corporate and networking
pages, ads on DirecTV and advertising through the Screenvision network
in about 100 theaters (and 50 others in the same areas) that will
screen the documentary on September 28 after live discussions on the
issues.
The idea of doing more than just a screening was put forward by Meyer
Shwarzstein, president of Brainstorm Media. "To get people into the
theater, you've got to make it an event," he said. "No one has done
this before, using this combination of live events, theatrical, social
media and digital platforms."
Brainstorm is backing the one-night showing, which will be distributed
electronically via Screenvision's in-theater video network (it usually
only plays ads before a movie). Shwarzstein also is working on sales
for TV, VOD and video. After those are set, the documentary will air
free on a Facebook page as well.
Facebook execs got involved after hearing how their social media
network helped in Risley's release. Besides the streaming
presentation, there are articles and promos on numerous Facebook
corporate and networking pages, messages to members and more.
"A lot of people think of Facebook as a place to connect to all the
people in their lives they care about," said Nicky Jackson Colaco,
public policy manager for Facebook. "We think of Facebook as a place
where you can also connect to the causes you care about. This is a
reflection of what is going on in the real world every day, women
fighting for human rights. It's absolutely natural they should also be
doing it online."
Suzanne DePasse, who is exec producing the documentary with her
partner Madison Jones, said there is no way they could get the level
of promotion necessary if they had to rely on traditional paid media
and advertising.
"What is beautiful about today's world is you can literally sit at
your desk and reach hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people,
by virtue of the Internet and new media," DePasse said.
While the promos will flash through cyberspace and on TV and movie
screens, the message also will be reinforced at some 500 house parties
(with eight to a dozen people at each) in the week leading to the
screening. They are being organized and hosted by Pink Papaya, a
direct sales company with 1,200 sales consultants in 35 states that
sells aromatherapy, body and bath and other products.
Pink Papaya got involved several years ago with Betty Makoni, the
woman who founded the Girl Child Network in Zimbabwe and is featured
in the documentary. "We're going to have a 'synergy week' leading up
to the movie to promote awareness," said Susan Huneke, Pink Papaya
founder and CEO.
Each attendee will get a flyer with info on the nearest theater
showing the doc, sign-up sheets to pledge they will attend, prizes for
party hosts and an offer to donate a package of merchandise to a girl
in Zimbabwe for each "Pinkyini" package of products sold in the U.S.
The company also will provide a $10 gift certificate for its products
to anyone who pays to see the movie.
Ruth Sharma, founder and president of Women Thrive Worldwide, said
this documentary might be what is needed to get legislation -- which
would involve the U.S. in supporting women's human rights globally --
passed by Congress. More than 10 members of Congress were solicited
and signed up over Facebook.
"'Tapestries of Hope' is really important because it makes the issues
real, connects with people and talks about what can be done," Sharma
said. "Legislation can seem dry and arcane, but when you see what
Betty has done, it really brings this home to people."
<a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/
idUSTRE68M2Y320100923">Facebook CEO Zuckerberg to give $100 million to
schools: report</a>
Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg smiles while unveiling the company's new
location services feature called ''Places'' during a news conference
at Facebook headquarters in Palo Alto, California August 18, 2010.
Credit: Reuters/Robert Galbraith
NEW YORK | Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:59pm EDT
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Facebook founder and chief executive Mark
Zuckerberg plans to announce he will donate $100 million to help
improve public schools in Newark, New Jersey, according to U.S. media
reports.
The announcement due on Friday would coincide with the premiere of
"The Social Network," a Hollywood movie by David Fincher chronicling
the popular social media site's rise. New York magazine described the
film as "not particularly flattering" to the 26-year-old Zuckerberg.
In conjunction with the donation, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie
has agreed to cede some control of the state's public school system to
Newark Mayor Cory Booker, including the power to name a new
superintendent, though Christie would retain the right to take back
control, the New York Times reported.
Zuckerberg, Christie and Booker are set to make their announcement on
Friday on television's "Oprah Winfrey Show," the Times said.
On Wednesday, Forbes estimated Zuckerberg's fortune to be worth $6.9
billion.
(Reporting by Phil Wahba; Editing by Jerry Norton)
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WW III Weapon
Stuxnet worm mystery: What’s the cyber weapon after?
Stuxnet worm attack has been centered on Iran, studies show. Experts
offer dueling theories as to the cyber weapon’s target: Iran’s Bushehr
nuclear power plant or the nuclear fuel centrifuge facility at Natanz?
In this 2008 file photo released by the Iranian President’s Office,
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, center, visits the Natanz
Uranium Enrichment Facility some 200 miles south of Tehran. Some cyber
security experts say the Natanz plant could be the target of the
Stuxnet worm.
Iranian President’s Office/AP/File
By Mark Clayton, Staff writer / September 24, 2010
Top industrial control systems experts have now gleaned enough about
the Stuxnet worm to classify it as a cyber superweapon. But the
mystery of what its target is – or was – remains unsolved, though
guesswork about its mission is intensifying among those who have
studied Stuxnet’s complicated code.
Educated guesses about what Stuxnet, described as the world’s first
cyber guided missile, is programmed to destroy include the reactor for
Iran’s new Bushehr nuclear power plant, as well as Iran’s nuclear fuel
centrifuge plant in Natanz. Both facilities are part of Tehran’s
nuclear program, which Iranian officials say is for peaceful purposes
but that many other countries, including the United States, suspect
are part of an atom-bombmaking apparatus.
The Bushehr power plant was supposed to be humming by now, but is not
– a possible sign that Stuxnet impaired one of its vital systems, says
one computer security expert. But another analyst who has also been
assisting on the Stuxnet case says the worm’s internal order makes
that scenario unlikely. The nuclear fuel centrifuge plant in the
Iranian town of Natanz is a better fit and a larger nuclear threat, he
says.
There is no independent confirmation that Bushehr or Natanz or
anyplace else has been attacked by a directed cyberweapon. But
competing theories are emerging about Stuxnet’s target. Here are two
from a cybersecurity duo from Germany who have worked, separately, on
deconstructing Stuxnet – and why they think what they do.
Ralph Langner is no Middle East policy wonk or former diplomat privy
to insider information. He is a German software security engineer with
a particular expertise in industrial control system software created
by industrial giant Siemens for use in factories, refineries, and
power plants worldwide.
This week, Mr. Langner became the first person to detail Stuxnet’s
peculiar attack features. He explained, for example, how Stuxnet
“fingerprints” each industrial network it infiltrates to determine if
it has identified the right system to destroy. Stuxnet was developed
to attack just one target in the world, Langner says and other experts
confirm. His best guess as to the target?
During an interview with the Monitor about Stuxnet’s technical
capabilities, Langner pointed at the Bushehr nuclear power plant. He
cites shards of information he has gleaned from open sources,
including news accounts, as well as his technical understanding of the
attack software. Here are his main arguments for his case.
Iran is the epicenter of the Stuxnet infection. Geographic studies by
Microsoft, Symantec, and others show the majority of infections to be
in Iran, making it a likely location for Stuxnet’s presumed target.
• Bushehr is a high-value target. Damaging the nuclear power plant
would deal a blow to Iran – a blow that would be worth the
considerable time and money a government would expend to develop such
as sophisticated cyberweapon.
• Concern about Bushehr is high among nations with cyberwar
capability. The imminent completion of the nuclear plant has roiled
the international community. Dismayed parties include the US and
Israel, in particular. But China, Russia, and France also are presumed
to have sophisticated cyberwarfare capabilities.
• Bushehr uses Siemens software and equipment. Stuxnet appears to
target Siemens SCADA systems. Bushehr was built largely with equipment
from Siemens, the German industrial giant that began the reactors in
the 1970s but later pulled out of the project. The plant still uses
industrial control software created by Siemens, but it has been
installed by Russian contractors.
• Stuxnet spreads via USB memory sticks. A steady flow of Russian
contractors to the Bushehr construction site ensured outside access to
the plant’s computer system. USB memory sticks are an invaluable tool
for engineers during construction of sophisticated computer-intensive
projects. Contractors building the plant would likely have made wide
use of them – giving Stuxnet a way to move into the plant without
having to rely on the Internet.
• Bushehr’s cyberdefenses are dubious. A journalist’s photo from
inside the Bushehr plant in early 2009, which Langner found on a
public news website, shows a computer-screen schematic diagram of a
process control system – but also a small dialog box on the screen
with a red warning symbol. Langner says the image on the computer
screen is of a Siemens supervisory control and data acquisition
(SCADA) industrial software control system called Simatic WinCC – and
the little warning box reveals that the software was not installed or
configured correctly, and was not licensed. That photo was a red flag
that the nuclear plant was vulnerable to a cyberattack, he says.
“Bushehr has all kinds of missiles around it to protect it from an
airstrike,” Langner says. “But this little screen showed anyone that
understood what that picture meant … that these guys were just simply
begging to be [cyber]attacked.”
The picture was reportedly taken on Feb. 25, 2009, by which time the
reactor should have had its cybersystems up and running and
bulletproof, Langner says. The photo strongly suggests that they were
not, he says. That increases the likelihood that Russian contractors
unwittingly spread Stuxnet via their USB drives to Bushehr, he says.
“The attackers realized they could not get to the target simply
through the Internet – a nuclear plant is not reachable that way,” he
says. “But the engineers who commission such plants work very much
with USBs like those Stuxnet exploited to spread itself. They’re using
notebook computers and using the USBs to connect to one machine, then
maybe going 20 yards away to another machine.”
In the end, the evidence pointing most strongly toward Bushehr is
Bushehr itself, Langner says. “What would be the one prime target that
would be worth the whole scenario – all the money, the teams of
experts needed to develop Stuxnet? Bushehr is the one target that
might be worth the cost.”
Not so fast, says Frank Rieger, a German researcher with GSMK, a
Berlin encryption firm that has been helping governments on the
Stuxnet case, who is familiar with the internal architecture of
Stuxnet. His theory is that Stuxnet’s target is a different facility
in Iran: Natanz.
The Natanz nuclear centrifuge facility is widely condemned as a
nuclear weapons threat. It currently produces low-enriched uranium for
power plants, but nonproliferation experts it could be converted to
produce highly enriched uranium fuel for use in nuclear weapons.
Two things in particular may make Natanz a more likely Stuxnet target,
Mr. Rieger says.
• Stuxnet had a halt date. Internal time signatures in Stuxnet appear
to prevent it from spreading across computer systems after July 2009.
That probably means the attack had to be conducted by then – though
such time signatures are not certain.
• Stuxnet appears designed to take over centrifuges’ programmable
logic controllers. Natanz has thousands of identical centrifuges and
identical programmable logic controllers (PLCs), tiny computers for
each centrifuge that oversee the centrifuge’s temperature, control
valves, operating speed, and flow of cooling water. Stuxnet’s internal
design would allow the malware to take over PLCs one after another, in
a cookie-cutter fashion.
“It seems like the parts of Stuxnet dealing with PLCs have been
designed to work on multiple nodes at once – which makes it fit well
with a centrifuge plant like Natanz,” Rieger says. By contrast,
Bushehr is a big central facility with many disparate PLCs performing
many different functions. Stuxnet seems focused on replicating its
intrusion across a lot of identical units in a single plant, he says.
Natanz also may have been hit by Stuxnet in mid-2009, Rieger says. He
notes that “a serious, recent, nuclear accident” was reported at that
time on WikiLeaks, the same organization that recently revealed US
Afghanistan-war documents. About the same time, the BBC reported that
the head of Iran’s nuclear agency had resigned.
Lending some credence to the notion that Stuxnet attacked more than a
year ago, he says, is the International Atomic Energy Agency’s finding
of a sudden 15 percent drop in the number of working centrifuges at
the Natanz site. Rieger posted that data on his blog.
“Bushehr didn’t present the immediate threat that Natanz and the other
centrifuge plants did at that time and still do,” Rieger says. “What
is clear is that there was an enormous amount of effort spent to do
Stuxnet in this way, and it all points [to a target with] a high level
of priority assigned to it by the people who did it.”
Virus hits Iran nuclear programme
By Daniel Dombey in Washington and agencies
Published: September 27 2010 01:56 | Last updated: September 27 2010
01:56
Iran confirmed on Sunday that its nuclear programme had been affected
by a mysterious computer virus, but sought to play down the impact.
Mahmoud Jafari, head of the Bushehr nuclear power plant, said the
Stuxnet worm had only affected staff computers rather than the system
running the reactor itself.
EDITOR’S CHOICE
Iranian president sours nuclear talks hopes – Sep-23.Sunni-led Arab
states on alert over Shia Iran – Sep-23.UN powers ready for new talks
with Iran – Sep-23.Russia axes missile deal with Iran – Sep-22.Gulf
states in $123bn US arms spree – Sep-20.Iran fear triggers arms surge
– Sep-20..“A team is inspecting several computers to remove the
malware … Major systems of the plant have not been damaged,” he told
the official IRNA news agency.
But Iran’s state-run Mehr news agency reported that the IP addresses
of 30,000 computer systems infected by the worm had also been
detected.
Stuxnet, the first program designed to cause serious damage in the
physical world, has hit an unknown number of power plants, pipelines
and factories over the past year.
Since Iran has suffered most of the infections, questions have been
raised about whether the virus is connected to western governments’
top secret sabotage campaign against Tehran’s nuclear programme.
Ashgear Zarean, deputy head of Iran’s Atomic Energy Agency, insisted
that precautions had prevented the worm from hitting Bushehr.
“It is expected that the vigilance and skills of Iranian experts would
once again thwart the cyber-warfare of the enemies,” he said.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. You may share using our
article tools. Please don’t cut articles from FT.com and redistribute
by email or post to the web.
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Conflict, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Terrorism
27/09/2010
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U.S. Wants to Make It Easier to Wiretap the Internet
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: September 27, 2010
WASHINGTON — Federal law enforcement and national security officials
are preparing to seek sweeping new regulations for the Internet,
arguing that their ability to wiretap criminal and terrorism suspects
is “going dark” as people increasingly communicate online instead of
by telephone.
Read All Comments (18)
Essentially, officials want Congress to require all services that
enable communications — including encrypted e-mail transmitters like
BlackBerry, social networking Web sites like Facebook and software
that allows direct “peer to peer” messaging like Skype — to be
technically capable of complying if served with a wiretap order. The
mandate would include being able to intercept and unscramble encrypted
messages.
The bill, which the Obama administration plans to submit to lawmakers
next year, raises fresh questions about how to balance security needs
with protecting privacy and fostering innovation. And because security
services around the world face the same problem, it could set an
example that is copied globally.
James X. Dempsey, vice president of the Center for Democracy and
Technology, an Internet policy group, said the proposal had “huge
implications” and challenged “fundamental elements of the Internet
revolution” — including its decentralized design.
“They are really asking for the authority to redesign services that
take advantage of the unique, and now pervasive, architecture of the
Internet,” he said. “They basically want to turn back the clock and
make Internet services function the way that the telephone system used
to function.”
But law enforcement officials contend that imposing such a mandate is
reasonable and necessary to prevent the erosion of their investigative
powers.
“We’re talking about lawfully authorized intercepts,” said Valerie E.
Caproni, general counsel for the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
“We’re not talking expanding authority. We’re talking about preserving
our ability to execute our existing authority in order to protect the
public safety and national security.”
Investigators have been concerned for years that changing
communications technology could damage their ability to conduct
surveillance. In recent months, officials from the F.B.I., the Justice
Department, the National Security Agency, the White House and other
agencies have been meeting to develop a proposed solution.
There is not yet agreement on important elements, like how to word
statutory language defining who counts as a communications service
provider, according to several officials familiar with the
deliberations.
But they want it to apply broadly, including to companies that operate
from servers abroad, like Research in Motion, the Canadian maker of
BlackBerry devices. In recent months, that company has come into
conflict with the governments of Dubai and India over their inability
to conduct surveillance of messages sent via its encrypted service.
In the United States, phone and broadband networks are already
required to have interception capabilities, under a 1994 law called
the Communications Assistance to Law Enforcement Act. It aimed to
ensure that government surveillance abilities would remain intact
during the evolution from a copper-wire phone system to digital
networks and cellphones.
Often, investigators can intercept communications at a switch operated
by the network company. But sometimes — like when the target uses a
service that encrypts messages between his computer and its servers —
they must instead serve the order on a service provider to get
unscrambled versions.
Like phone companies, communication service providers are subject to
wiretap orders. But the 1994 law does not apply to them. While some
maintain interception capacities, others wait until they are served
with orders to try to develop them.
The F.B.I.’s operational technologies division spent $9.75 million
last year helping communication companies — including some subject to
the 1994 law that had difficulties — do so. And its 2010 budget
included $9 million for a “Going Dark Program” to bolster its
electronic surveillance capabilities.
Beyond such costs, Ms. Caproni said, F.B.I. efforts to help retrofit
services have a major shortcoming: the process can delay their ability
to wiretap a suspect for months.
Moreover, some services encrypt messages between users, so that even
the provider cannot unscramble them.
There is no public data about how often court-approved surveillance is
frustrated because of a service’s technical design.
But as an example, one official said, an investigation into a drug
cartel earlier this year was stymied because smugglers used peer-to-
peer software, which is difficult to intercept because it is not
routed through a central hub. Agents eventually installed surveillance
equipment in a suspect’s office, but that tactic was “risky,” the
official said, and the delay “prevented the interception of pertinent
communications.”
Moreover, according to several other officials, after the failed Times
Square bombing in May, investigators discovered that the suspect,
Faisal Shahzad, had been communicating with a service that lacked
prebuilt interception capacity. If he had aroused suspicion
beforehand, there would have been a delay before he could have been
wiretapped.
To counter such problems, officials are coalescing around several of
the proposal’s likely requirements:
¶ Communications services that encrypt messages must have a way to
unscramble them.
¶ Foreign-based providers that do business inside the United States
must install a domestic office capable of performing intercepts.
¶ Developers of software that enables peer-to-peer communication must
redesign their service to allow interception.
Providers that failed to comply would face fines or some other
penalty. But the proposal is likely to direct companies to come up
with their own way to meet the mandates. Writing any statute in
“technologically neutral” terms would also help prevent it from
becoming obsolete, officials said.
Even with such a law, some gaps could remain. It is not clear how it
could compel compliance by overseas services that do no domestic
business, or from a “freeware” application developed by volunteers.
In their battle with Research in Motion, countries like Dubai have
sought leverage by threatening to block BlackBerry data from their
networks. But Ms. Caproni said the F.B.I. did not support filtering
the Internet in the United States.
Still, even a proposal that consists only of a legal mandate is likely
to be controversial, said Michael A. Sussmann, a former Justice
Department lawyer who advises communications providers.
“It would be an enormous change for newly covered companies,” he said.
“Implementation would be a huge technology and security headache, and
the investigative burden and costs will shift to providers.”
Several privacy and technology advocates argued that requiring
interception capabilities would create holes that would inevitably be
exploited by hackers.
Steven M. Bellovin, a Columbia University computer science professor,
pointed to an episode in Greece: In 2005, it was discovered that
hackers had taken advantage of a legally mandated wiretap function to
spy on top officials’ phones, including the prime minister’s.
“I think it’s a disaster waiting to happen,” he said. “If they start
building in all these back doors, they will be exploited.”
Susan Landau, a Radcliffe Institute of Advanced Study fellow and
former Sun Microsystems engineer, argued that the proposal would raise
costly impediments to innovation by small startups.
“Every engineer who is developing the wiretap system is an engineer
who is not building in greater security, more features, or getting the
product out faster,” she said.
Moreover, providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are
likely to object to watering it down. Similarly, in the late 1990s,
encryption makers fought off a proposal to require them to include a
back door enabling wiretapping, arguing it would cripple their
products in the global market.
But law enforcement officials rejected such arguments. They said
including an interception capability from the start was less likely to
inadvertently create security holes than retrofitting it after
receiving a wiretap order.
They also noted that critics predicted that the 1994 law would impede
cellphone innovation, but that technology continued to improve. And
their envisioned decryption mandate is modest, they contended, because
service providers — not the government — would hold the key.
“No one should be promising their customers that they will thumb their
nose at a U.S. court order,” Ms. Caproni said. “They can promise
strong encryption. They just need to figure out how they can provide
us plain text.”
23 Readers’ Comments
.1.George P. Hickey Seattle, WA September 27th, 2010 8:02 am
The Obama administration is taking the civil rights abuses of the Bush
Administration to new heights. We Americans live in a surveillance
state governed by a President who, just like the previous one, claims
the right to imprison and assassinate American citizens without a
trial.
Consider also, that all three branches of our government are
controlled by powerful insatiable profit seeking corporations, and the
description of this country as a Democratic nation of laws rings quite
hollow.
Recommended by 23 Readers
.2.Jon Seattle September 27th, 2010 8:02 am
Big Brother Obama is watching. Dick Cheney would be proud.
If anyone doesn’t think we are already a corporate controlled police
state, then they are in serious denial.
Some people might refer to that type of state as fascism.
Recommended by 20 Readers
.3.Linda Joy Adams Colbert, OK September 27th, 2010 8:04 am
I thought they were already monitoring all Internet commenication
check ing for code words. or is it not yet legal to use the info in
court? I have facebook friends all over the world. most of them have
pastor or evangelist in front of their name so if the govt
‘eavesdroppers’ want to join our prayer chat lines please feel free to
sign up and join in. This world can use all the prayer help
possible.Linda Joy Adams
Recommended by 1 Reader
.4.Darryl Williamstown, MA September 27th, 2010 8:04 am
I am sick and tired of the legislature yielding to the desire of the
administration in power by gutting the 4th Amendment. Why is it that
all administrations, both liberal and conservative, want to have the
power to infringe upon our privacy rights under the guise of
“security” or “safety”?
Recommended by 21 Readers
.5.HIGHLIGHT (what’s this?) Jeffrey Atwood 90069 September 27th,
20108:04 am
Will this result in another end-run around the FISA (Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Act)? Will we return to the J. Edgar Hoover
era of illegal wiretaps? It seems like the government manages to cry
“state secrets” every time their methods are questioned. The Bush
Administration made a mockery of due process by ignoring the FISA
court, pushing through the oxymoronic Patriot Act, and tapping into
the Internet (that AT&T switching center tap revealed by Max Klein).
Recommended by 16 Readers
6.Chuck Swanson Green Valley, AZ September 27th, 2010 8:07 am
THE POLICE STATE GETS MORE AND MORE SOPHISTICATED EVERY DAY.
I am very glad I am 70 and won’t have to put up with this, but I am
very sorry for my six grandchildren.
./
Recommended by 11 Readers
.7.Jester James Pennsylvania September 27th, 2010 8:07 am
yea… you mean Big Brother isn’t already reading my email? or does Big
Brother just want to make it legal and easier?
Recommended by 8 Readers
.8.jane c.arkansas September 27th, 2010 8:07 am
Obama and the Democrats are trying to turn this country into a police
state. They must be stopped
Recommended by 8 Readers
.9.paul anthony australia September 27th, 2010 8:11 am
excellent… it needs to be done yesterday. post haste…! there will be a
mammoth dark hole in tracking abillity if this is not put in place. i
can encrypt straight from my phone,beleive me , you need this to be
put in place.if i were to use what is available at my fingertips right
now this minute,within 30minutes i would be able to make fresh contact
with many groups and persons of intrest”if you get my drift”and it
would only take a few seconds after that to encrypt a message and
start trouble. i in no way mean to cause panic,im not saying there is
an impending attack,but when you deal with terrorism and the likes of
modern cyber crime, you need to be on top of your game…! your privacy
is still intact. i do not wish to enter into a debate with anyone on
this topic, “there is nothing wrong with debate,but my veiws on this
topic are unchanging,its vital” paul anthony
Recommended by 2 Readers
.10.Arbuckle Doc Arbuckle Mountains September 27th, 2010 8:12 am
They’ve said, for a long time, that if you build a better lock, you
will meet a better grade of lockpicker; is the government having a
problem, recruiting the best of the lockpickers, or what??? ~ Perhaps,
someone should explain, to them, that this is a new century!!! ~ Why
should the government expect everyone to use 19th century technology,
in the 21st century, simply because, that is the extent of THEIR
technical abilty??? ~ Perhaps, they might consider, hireing s few pre-
teenagers, who really understand “Modern” communications!!!!
Recommended by 3 Readers
.11.Me underground Secret hiding place September 27th, 2010 8:12 am
I’d like to comment but uh……..
Recommended by 6 Readers
.12.Concept P Boro September 27th, 2010 8:12 am
Big Brother is watching you
Recommended by 1 Reader
.13.Raffi LA September 27th, 2010 8:12 am
America, the land of the free…
Recommended by 1 Reader
.14.Dave Europe September 27th, 2010 8:19 am
You’ve got to keep in mind that the people who will administer
internet wire-tapping (e.g., CIA, Mossad) are the very same ones who
came up with the Stuxnet worm — and that’s not very inspiring . . .
Recommended by 2 Readers
.15.tom frantz ashland oregon September 27th, 2010 8:20 am
Like we really need this after the Patriot Act. Orwellian Nightmare!!!
.16.M Seattle, WA September 27th, 2010 8:20 am
I’ll take crippled law enforcement over the outlawing of true
encryption.
.17.ekeizer4 Oregon September 27th, 2010 8:21 am
Isn’t part of the Internet’s appeal that no single country “owns” it?
Even China can only filter the Internet; it can’t regulate what
appears online beyond its own cyber-walls. How could the U.S. enforce
a law that it wants to apply not only to large companies but anonymous
hackers in basements halfway across the world? A corporation that
wishes to do business in the U.S. might follow the law, but what
authority would American law enforcement have over random people using
peer-to-peer services? If the U.S. thinks it can act as the world’s
Internet police, it is sadly mistaken.
.18.RJB Canada September 27th, 2010 8:21 am
When is the tyranny of increased police powers and endless invasions
of privacy going to end? “officials” should really read “The Gestapo
are preparing to seek….” It is clearly time to wake up to the fact
that the threats to national security are exaggerated and spurious and
too often concocted for ulterior motives. If they can’t do the job
with the powers they now have their competence is questionable.
.19.Janet Lafayette September 27th, 2010 8:24 am
There’s no limit to the American government’s willingness to limit
freedom in its quest to protect freedom. ~~Anon.
.20.Vigdor Schreibman Washington, DC September 27th, 2010 8:24 am
The problem with this proposal, and the article, intself, is the
presumption that US federal and state police agency presently abide by
the law. This is not true. These police agencies have the power, if
not the legal authority in my experience, to simply disregard the law
whenever they feel they should, as Bush era policies have shown, to
best achieve their police goals.
.21.WKH Vermont September 27th, 2010 8:25 am
AS long as court judges with national security and privacy rights
experience must be persuaded of the need, then this unfortunately is
probably the price the average citizen must pay to maintain the last
vestages of value we once called freedom. The perpetrators of the
September 11th national tragedy have surely won. AS a society, do we
value the mirage of safety(national security) over the social
responsbilties of freedom ? This reader believes the gamblers of Wall
Street who bets are hedged by the national treasury are the greater
security risk than a handful of misguided religious zealots.
.22.HJ Boitel New York September 27th, 2010 8:25 am
This article is disappointing since it makes not effort to inform the
reader as to the standards that the proposed net-tapping laws would
impose for the issuance of net-tap order.
–Would they be the Fourth Amendment standards that are applicable to
searches and seizures and to telephone taps?
–Would the net-tapers be required to minimize their interceptions so
as to avoid interceptions of a suspect’s communications that are not
covered by the court order?
–How about minimization that avoids interception of communications by
innocent third parties that use the same computer or account or
storage device as the suspect?
–Will the mere use of encryption software be permitted to shift mere
suspicion to probable cause?
–Will individuals who use now commonly available strong encryption
tools that reside on their own computers, without third party
processing, be required to desist from such use or be required to
reveal the decryption alogrythm?
–For some time an emphasis has been placed upon protection of
identity. Will the legislation prohibit the use of internet facilities
that permit anonymous internet communication? In this regard, it
should be noted that it would be relatively easy for an anonymous
posting to a blog, such as this, to also act as a means by which
messages can be communicated between people ho wish those
communications to be secret?
–Would probably clause be limited to circumstances where it is claimed
that laws of the United States are violated or would it be sufficient
to allege that the law of any foreign government or treaty
organization is being violated?
–For how long would service providers be required to keep data that
might, at some time in the future, be sought by a net-tap order?
–Supposing a targeted person uses an internet facility to store his
own data for his own use and not with the intent of making any
communication of it to another alleged partner in crime, would such
personal storage also be subject to seizure and would the seizure
rules be the same?
–Who will bear the cost of regulations that impose upon communications
providers the ability to comply with such net-tap orders?
HJBoitel
.23.T O’Neill Dallas September 27th, 2010 8:27 am
“Moreover, providers of services featuring user-to-user encryption are
likely to object to watering it down. Similarly, in the late 1990s,
encryption makers fought off a proposal to require them to include a
back door enabling wiretapping, arguing it would cripple their
products in the global market.”
This sounds a little like the infamous clipper chip debacle, but with
the facts garbled. If this paragraph is not refering to the clipper
chip, what is it refering to??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip
When even Google can’t protect their data from being hacked by
outsiders, having vast numbers of in-use decryption keys being stored
in one place just sounds like a colossally bad idea.
Thank you for your submission. Comments are moderated and generally
will be posted if they are on-topic and not abusive. An email will be
sent to you at baku...@msn.com (Change e-mail)
Your Submitted Comment
Display Name
navanavonmilita
Location
USA
My dear uncle Osama,
Received your pigion-mail dated August 26, 2010. It takes the joy out
of me because of the slow delivery. I am sure you must have received
my 39 Skype peer-to-peer messages promptly. I also sent you 42
encrypted messages thru Blackbery. Thanks to the Research in motion of
Toronto, Canada. You shall find a wealth of information on uncle Sam’s
health, wealth and fast fading wisdom.
Poor uncle Sam. What can I say? He is going bonkers. The word out
there in the belway is that uncle Sam is losing his bowels, oops,
bowed legs, oops, well, I cannot say no more as it is stamped as top
secret.
By the way, how is aunt #9, aunt #13, aunt #49? I hope their pregnancy
would go smoothly. Let me wish cousins #28, #7, #83 happy birthdays.
Uncle Osama, please consider my communications thru several and sundry
internet blogs, babies of blogs, cousin blogs, social media pages on
facebook, mylifeandtimes, myspace, yahoowhosehoo, osamamamma urgently
as I have passed you top secret Pentagon papers, diaries of ex-
Pentagon nabobs, homework assignments of CIA boys from Virginia Farm.
This may be the last time I may communicate with you and your rather
large family members as uncle Sam is going to put his foot down and
close all avenues of internet communications. Our pigeon-mail system
is not affected. I am sending a new message today. You shall receive
it on December 25, 2010, hopefully, if the pigeon is not intercepted
and killed by uncle Sam’s laser weapons.
May Allah be Praised.
PS: Uncle Sam sends you his love so does aunt Sammy-Mammie and
goodwishes for all our cousins. May your tribe increase. Uncle Sam’s
tribe, oops, tribals are increasing twice by the day and thrice by the
night. Saturdays, Sundays excluded, oops, fourth of July included,
oops, Presidents’ Day included, oops, uncle Osama’s birthday
doubletime double included.
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Religious
fundamentalism, Terrorism
27/09/2010
« Happy 10th Birthday Google, Oops, G0000000000gle
P. Rajah
Stuxnet malware is 'weapon' out to destroy ... Iran's Bushehr nuclear plant?
The Stuxnet malware has infiltrated industrial computer systems
worldwide. Now, cyber security sleuths say it's a search-and-destroy
weapon meant to hit a single target. One expert suggests it may be after
Iran's Bushehr nuclear power plant.
[....]
Stuxnet surfaced in June and, by July, was identified as a
hypersophisticated piece of malware probably created by a team working
for a nation state, say cyber security experts. Its name is derived from
some of the filenames in the malware. It is the first malware known to
target and infiltrate industrial supervisory control and data
acquisition (SCADA) software used to run chemical plants and factories
as well as electric power plants and transmission systems worldwide.
That much the experts discovered right away.
But what was the motive of the people who created it? Was Stuxnet
intended to steal industrial secrets – pressure, temperature, valve, or
other settings –and communicate that proprietary data over the Internet
to cyber thieves?
By August, researchers had found something more disturbing: Stuxnet
appeared to be able to take control of the automated factory control
systems it had infected – and do whatever it was programmed to do with
them. That was mischievous and dangerous.
But it gets worse. Since reverse engineering chunks of Stuxnet's massive
code, senior US cyber security experts confirm what Mr. Langner, the
German researcher, told the Monitor: Stuxnet is essentially a precision,
military-grade cyber missile deployed early last year to seek out and
destroy one real-world target of high importance – a target still unknown.
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/28/babri-scandal-is-here-to-stay/
Babri Masjid verdict: Supreme Court rejects plea for deferment
NDTV Correspondent, Updated: September 28, 2010 14:22 IST
New Delhi: A three-judge bench of the Supreme Court, headed by the
Chief Justice of India, has cleared the way for the Lucknow bench of
the Allahabad High Court to pronounce verdict on the Ayodhya title
suit case.
The apex court has rejected a petition to defer verdict in the Ayodhya
land dispute case. The petition, filed by retired bureaucrat Ramesh
Chand Tripathi, had sought that the verdict be deferred to allow the
contesting parties to arrive at an out-of-court settlement.
The High Court can now give verdict on any day. It has two days before
one of the three judges on the Lucknow bench hearing the title suit,
DV Sharma, retires on October 1.
Last week, on September 23, a Supreme Court interim order had
restrained the Allahabad High Court from pronouncing the verdict in
the four title suits. The verdict of the Lucknow Bench of the
Allahabad High Court was to have been delivered a day later.
NDTV Social
Mukul Rohatgi, representing petitioner Tripathi, had argued that the
Centre “has acted merely as it is a receiver of the property”- a
proactive stand has to be taken by the Centre, he said.
Last week, for the first time in the 60-year-old case, the union
government was made a party to the case and its views were presented
in court by the Attorney General, who said that the Centre would
welcome a settlement but did not want uncertainty.
Rohatgi argued that the Supreme Court “must experiment to come up with
an innovative solution.”
A main party in the case- the Nirmohi Akhara – also wanted the court
to defer the verdict by three months to allow for reconciliation.
But a majority of the parties in the case on both sides, including the
Central Board of Wakfs, the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board and
the All-India Hindu Maha Sabha pleaded for vacating the stay and
allowing the High Court to pronounce the verdict.
“The difference between Mandir group and Masjid group are so diverse.
That’s why we want the judgement to be pronounced,” said Anoop
Chaudhri, senior lawyer for Sunni Central Board of Waqf Board, UP.
There were 27 respondents in the case.
The three-judge bench of the Supreme Court, which heard and rejected
the petition today, comprised Chief Justice of India SH Kapadia,
Justice Aftab Alam and Justice KS Radhakrishnan.
The Ayodhya dispute: A timeline
NDTV Correspondent, Updated: September 28, 2010 14:44 IST
New Delhi: The disputed Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri mosque site has been
contentious for over a hundred years now.
The property dispute, or the title suit, went to court in 1949, soon
after the idols of Ram and Sita were placed there. Today, a three-
judge bench of the Supreme Court, headed by the Chief Justice of
India, rejected petitioner Ramesh Chandra Tripathi’s plea to defer the
verdict and cleared the way for the Lucknow bench of the Allahabad
High Court to pronounce verdict on the Ayodhya title suit case.
The High Court bench is to decide who the land belongs to and what
stood here first, a temple or a mosque. One side in the legal battle
claims that this has been a mosque for 400 years. The other side says
an ancient temple was demolished to build that mosque. They say this
is the birthplace of Lord Ram.
1528: The Babri Masjid was built in Ayodhya in 1528. Hindu groups
claim it was built after demolishing a temple.
1853: The first recorded communal clashes over the site date back to
this year.
1859: The colonial British administration put a fence around the site,
denominating separate areas of worship for Hindus and Muslims. And
that is the way it stood for about 90 years.
1949: In December of that year, idols were put inside the mosque. Both
sides to the dispute filed civil suits. The government locked the
gates, saying the matter was sub-judice and declared the area
“disputed”.
1984: The movement to build a temple at the site, which Hindus claimed
was the birthplace of Lord Ram, gathered momentum when Hindu groups
formed a committee to spearhead the construction of a temple at the
Ramjanmabhoomi site.
1986: A district judge ordered the gates of the mosque to be opened
after almost five decades and allowed Hindus to worship inside the
“disputed structure.”
1986: A Babri Mosque Action Committee was formed as Muslims protested
the move to allow Hindu prayers at the site.
1989: The clamour for building a Ram temple was growing. Fronted by
organizations like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, foundations of a temple
were laid on land adjacent to the “disputed structure.”
1990: The then BJP president Lal Krishna Advani took out a cross-
country rathyatra to garner support for the move to build a Ram temple
at the site. VHP volunteers partially damaged the Babri mosque. Prime
Minister Chandrashekhar intervened and tried to negotiate with the
various groups. But talks failed.
1991: Riding high on the success of Advani’s rathyatra, the BJP became
India’s primary opposition party in Parliament and came to power in
Uttar Pradesh.
1991: The movement for building a temple gathered further momentum
with Karsevaks or Hindu volunteers pouring into Ayodhya. Bricks were
sent from across India.
1992: On December 6, the Babri mosque was demolished by Karsevaks.
Communal riots across India followed.
1992: On December 16, ten days after the demolition, the Congress
government at the Centre, headed by PV Narasimha Rao, set up a
commission of inquiry under Justice Liberhan.
1993: Three months after being constituted, the Liberhan Commission
began investigations into who and what led to the demolition of the
Barbri mosque.
2001: Tensions rose on the anniversary of the demolition of the mosque
as the VHP reaffirmed its resolve to build a temple at the site.
2002: Early that year, as Uttar Pradesh headed for Assembly elections,
the BJP did not commit itself to the construction of a Ram temple in
Ayodhya in its election manifesto. The VHP, however, remains adamant
and set March 15 of that year as the deadline for construction to
begin. Hundreds of volunteers start converging on the site.
2002: On February 27, at least 58 people were killed in Godhra,
Gujarat, in an attack on a train believed to be carrying Hindu
volunteers from Ayodhya. Riots followed in the state and over 1000
people were reported to have died in these.
2002: In April that year, a 3-judge Lucknow bench of the Allahabad
High Court began hearings on determining who owned the site.
2003: The court ordered a survey to find out whether a temple to Lord
Ram existed on the site. In August, the survey presented evidence of a
temple under the mosque. But Muslim groups disputed the findings.
2003: In September, a court ruled that seven Hindu leaders, including
some prominent BJP leaders, should stand trial for inciting the
destruction of the Babri Mosque. But no charges were brought against
Lal Krishna Advani, by now the Deputy Prime Minister.
2004: A Congress-led government returned to power at the Centre, after
the general elections threw up what many saw as a surprise result.
2004: In November, an Uttar Pradesh court ruled that an earlier order
which exonerated LK Advani for his role in the destruction of the
mosque should be reviewed.
2007: The Supreme Court refused to admit a review petition on the
Ayodhya dispute.
2009: The Liberhan Commission, which was instituted ten days after the
demolition of the Barbri mosque in 1992, submitted its report on June
30 – almost 17 years after it began its inquiry. Its contents were not
made public.
2010: The High Court bench in Lucknow hearing the title suit case,
said it would pronounce verdict on September 24, Friday last. Days
later, a plea to defer verdict on the Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid
title suit was rejected by the Allahabad High Court.
The petitioner, Ramesh Chandra Tripathi, then approached the Supreme
Court, which stayed the High Court verdict on Friday. The two judges
who heard the case differed, resulting in the Chief Justice stepping
in. A three-judge bench of the Supreme Court, headed by the Chief
Justice of India on Tuesday, September 28, cleared the way for the
Lucknow bench of the Allahabad High Court to pronounce verdict on the
Ayodhya title suit case.
Archaeology of Ayodhya
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ayodhya debate
Babri Mosque
Ram Janmabhoomi
Archaeology
2005 Ram Janmabhoomi attack
Liberhan Commission
People and organizations
Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh
L. K. Advani
Atal Bihari Vajpayee
Murli Manohar Joshi
Kalyan Singh
All India Babri Masjid Action Committee
Babur
Bharatiya Janata Party
Koenraad Elst
The archaeology of Ayodhya concerns the excavations and findings in
the Indian city of Ayodhya in the state of Uttar Pradesh. Much of this
revolves around locating Ram Janmabhoomi, the birth place of the
legendary figure Rama.
Archaeological studies in the 1970s: Project “Archaeology of the
Ramayana Sites”
Though results were not reported in that period,[citation needed]
between 1975 and 1985 an archaeological project was carried out in
Ayodhya to examine some sites that were connected to the Ramayana
story. The Babri Mosque site was one of the fourteen sites examined
during this project. After a gap of many years since the excavation
the BB Lal led ASI team claimed in the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh
(RSS) magazine Manthan in October 1990 of having found the pillar-
bases of what may have been a temple at the site which must have
belonged to a larger building than the Babri Mosque.
The team of archaeologists of the ASI, led by B.B. Lal, found rows of
pillar-bases which must have belonged to a larger building than the
Babri Mosque.
Accordingly, archaeological findings of burnt bases of pillars made of
brick, a few metres from the mosque indicated that a large temple
stood in alignment with the Babri Mosque since the 11th century.[1] In
a trench at a distance of four metres south of the mosque, parallel
rows of pillar-foundations made of brick-bats and stones were found.
[2]
Professor Gupta later commented on the findings of the period prior to
1990: “Several of the temple pillars existing in the mosque and
pillar- bases unearthed in the excavations conducted in the south of
the mosque (although in the adjoining plot of land) show the same
directional alignment. This will convince any student of architecture
that two sets of material remains belong to one and the same
complex.“[3]
June to July 1992
In July 1992, eight eminent archaeologists (among them former ASI
directors Dr. Y.D. Sharma and Dr. K.M. Srivastava) went to the Ramkot
hill to evaluate and examine the findings. These findings included
religious sculptures and a statue of Vishnu. They said that the inner
boundary of the disputed structure rests, at least on one side, on an
earlier existing structure, which “may have belonged to an earlier
temple”. (Indian Express, 4 July 1992.) The objects examined by them
also included terracotta Hindu images of the Kushan period (100-300
AD) and carved buff sandstone objects that showed images of Vaishnav
deities and of Shiva-Parvati. They concluded that these fragments
belong to a temple of the Nagara style (900-1200 AD).
Prof. S.P. Gupta commented on the discoveries:
“The team found that the objects were datable to the period ranging
from the 10th through the 12th century AD, i.e., the period of the
late Pratiharas and early Gahadvals. (….) These objects included a
number of amakalas, i.e., the cogged-wheel type architectural element
which crown the bhumi shikharas or spires of subsidiary shrines, as
well as the top of the spire or the main shikhara … This is a
characteristic feature of all north Indian temples of the early
medieval period (…) There was other evidence – of cornices, pillar
capitals, mouldings, door jambs with floral patterns and others –
leaving little doubt regarding the existence of a 10th – 12th century
temple complex at the site of Ayodhya.”[4]
2003: The ASI report
The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) excavated the mosque site at
the direction of the Allahabad Bench of the Uttar Pradesh High Court
in 2003. The archaeologists reported evidence of a large 10th century
structure similar to a Hindu temple having pre-existed the Babri
Masjid. A team of 131 labourers including 29 Muslims – who were later
on included on the objections of the Muslim side[citation needed] –
was engaged in the excavations. In June 11, 2003 the ASI issued an
interim report that only listed the findings of the period between May
22 and June 6, 2003. In August 2003 the ASI handed a 574-page report
to the Lucknow Bench of the Allahabad High Court.
The ASI, who examined the site, issued a report of the findings of the
period between May 22 and June 6, 2003. This report stated:
Among the structures listed in the report are several brick walls ‘in
east-west orientation’, several ‘in north-south orientation’,
‘decorated coloured floor’, several ‘pillar bases’, and a ‘1.64-metre
high decorated black stone pillar (broken) with yaksha figurines on
four corners’ as well as “Arabic inscription of holy verses on
stone” [5] Earlier reports by the ASI, based on earlier findings, also
mention among other things a staircase and two black basalt columns
‘bearing fine decorative carvings with two crosslegged figures in bas-
relief on a bloomed lotus with a peacock whose feathers are raised
upwards’.
The excavations give ample traces that there was a mammoth pre-
existing structure beneath the three-domed Babri structure. Ancient
perimeters from East to West and North to South have been found
beneath the Babri fabrication. The bricks used in these perimeters
predate the time of Babur. Beautiful stone pieces bearing carved Hindu
ornamentations like lotus, Kaustubh jewel, alligator facade, etc.,
have been used in these walls. These decorated architectural pieces
have been anchored with precision at varied places in the walls. A
tiny portion of a stone slab is sticking out at a place below 20 feet
in one of the pits. The rest of the slab lies covered in the wall. The
projecting portion bears a five-letter Dev Nagari inscription that
turns out to be a Hindu name. The items found below 20 feet should be
at least 1,500 years old. According to archaeologists about a foot of
loam layer gathers on topsoil every hundred years. Primary clay was
not found even up to a depth of 30 feet. It provides the clue to the
existence of some structure or the other at that place during the last
2,500 years.
More than 30 pillar bases have been found at equal spans. The pillar-
bases are in two rows and the rows are parallel. The pillar-base rows
are in North-South direction. A wall is superimposed upon another
wall. At least three layers of the floor are visible. An octagonal
holy fireplace (Yagna Kund) has been found. These facts prove the
enormity of the pre-existing structure. Surkhii has been used as a
construction material in our country since over 2000 years and in the
constructions at the Janma Bhumi Surkhii has been extensively used.
Molded bricks of round and other shapes and sizes were neither in
vogue during the middle ages nor are in use today. It was in vogue
only 2,000 years ago. Many ornate pieces of touchstone (Kasauti stone)
pillars have been found in the excavation. Terracotta idols of divine
fugurines, serpent, elephant, horse-rider, saints, etc., have been
found. Even to this day terracotta idols are used in worship during
Diwali celebrations and then put by temple sanctums for invoking
divine blessings. The Gupta and the Kushan period bricks have been
found. Brick walls of the Gahadwal period (12th Century CE) have been
found in excavations.
Nothing has been found to prove the existence of residential
habitation there. The excavation gives out the picture of a vast
compound housing a sole distinguished and greatly celebrated structure
used for divine purposes and not that of a colony or Mohalla
consisting of small houses. That was an uncommon and highly celebrated
place and not a place of habitation for the common people. Hindu
pilgrims have always been visiting that place for thousands of years.
Even today there are temples around that place and the items found in
the excavations point to the existence of a holy structure of North
Indian architectural style at that place.
Some results of the 2003 ASI report
Period 1000BC to 300BC:
The findings suggest that a Northern Black Polished Ware (NBPW)
culture existed at the mosque site between 1000 BC and 300 BC. A round
signet with a legend in Asokan Brahmi , terracotta figurines of female
deities with archaic features, beads of terracotta and glass, wheels
and fragments of votive tanks have been found.[6]
Sunga Period. 200 BC:
Typical terracotta mother goddess, human and animal figurines, beads,
hairpin, pottery (includes black slipped, red and grey wares), and
stone and brick structures of the Sunga period have been found.[6]
Kushan period. 100-300 AD:
Terracotta human and animal figurines, fragments of votive tanks,
beads, bangle fragments, ceramics with red ware and large-sized
structures running into twenty-two courses have been found from this
level.[6]
Gupta era (400-600 AD) and post-Gupta era:
Typical terracotta figurines, a copper coin with the legend Sri
Chandra (Gupta), and illustrative potsherds of the Gupta period have
been found. A circular brick shrine with an entrance from the east and
a provision for a water-chute on the northern wall have also been
found.[6]
11th to 12th century:
A huge structure of almost fifty metres in north-south orientation
have been found on this level. Only four of the fifty pillar bases
belong to this level. Above this lied a structure with at least three
structural phases which had a huge pillared hall.[6]
Radar search
In the January 2003, Canadian geophysicist Claude Robillard performed
a search with a ground-penetrating radar. The survey concluded the
following:
“There is some structure under the mosque. The structures were ranging
from 0.5 to 5.5 meters in depth that could be associated with ancient
and contemporaneous structures such as pillars, foundation walls, slab
flooring, extending over a large portion of the site”.
Claude Robillard, the chief geophysicist stated the following:
“There are some anomalies found underneath the site relating to some
archaeological features. You might associate them (the anomalies) with
pillars, or floors, or concrete floors, wall foundation or something.
These anomalies could be associated with archaeological features but
until we dig, I can’t say for sure what the construction is under the
mosque.”[7]
Inscriptions
Hari-Vishnu inscription:
During the demolition of the Babri mosque in December 1992, three
inscriptions on stone were found. The most important one is the Hari-
Vishnu inscription inscribed on a 1.10 x .56 metre slab with 20 lines
that was provisionally dated to ca. 1140. The inscription mentioned
that the temple was dedicated to “Vishnu, slayer of Bali and of the
ten-headed one” [Rama is an incarnation of Vishnu who is said to have
defeated Bali and Ravana].[8] The inscription is written in the Nagari
Lipi script, a Sanskrit script of the 11th and 12th century.[8] It was
examined by world class Epigraphists and Sanskrit scholars (among them
Prof. A.M. Shastri).[8][citation needed]
Ajay Mitra Shastri, Chairman of the Epigraphical Society of India and
a specialist in Epigraphy and Numismatics, examined the Hari-Vishnu
inscription and stated:
“The inscription is composed in high-flown Sanskrit verse, except for
a small portion in prose, and is engraved in the chaste and classical
Nagari- script of the eleventh-twelfth century AD. It was evidently
put up on the wall of the temple, the construction of which is
recorded in the text inscribed on it. Line 15 of this inscription, for
example, clearly tells us that a beautiful temple of Vishnu-Hari,
built with heaps of stone (sila-samhati-grahais) and beautified with a
golden spire (hiranya-kalasa-srisundaram) unparalleled by any other
temple built by earlier kings (purvvair-apy-akrtam krtam nrpatibhir)
was constructed. This wonderful temple (aty-adbhutam) was built in the
temple- city (vibudh-alaayni) of Ayodhya situated in the Saketamandala
(district, line 17) (…). Line 19 describes god Vishnu as destroying
king Bali (apparently in the Vamana manifestation) and the ten-headed
personage (Dasanana, i.e., Ravana).”[8]
Pillars
Pillar bases were first discovered by the ASI’s former director-
general BB Lal in 1975. In the Babri Mosque were at least fourteen
stone pillars that have been dated to the early 11th century and more
pillars were found during excavations buried in the ground near the
mosque. Two similar pillars were also found placed upside down by the
side of the grave of Fazle Abbas alias Musa Ashikhan. This Muslim
saint was the person that incited Mir Baqi to destroy the Janmasthan
temple and build a mosque on it.[9]
Controversy of the archaeological findings
The ASI findings are hotly disputed.[10]
In fact, two Muslim graves were also recovered in the excavation as
reported in Outlook weekly. While the ASI videographed and
photographed the graves on April 22, it did not perform a detailed
analysis of them. The skeletons found at the site were not sent for
carbon-dating, neither were the graves measured.[11]. Anirudha
Srivastava a former ASI archaeologist said that in some trenches, some
graves, terracotta and lime mortar and surkhi were also discovered
which indicated Muslim habitation and it was also surmised that there
existed some mosque on the site and that Babri was built on the site
of another mosque.[12]
Richard M Eaton, an American historian of medieval India, in his
Essays on Islam and Indian History (ISBN 0-19-566265-2) documents
major instances of destruction of Hindu temples between 1192 and 1760.
The total adds up to 80. Eaton in his book does not claim that this
list is exhaustive. Furthermore, each of theses 80 cases represents
the destruction of not just one, but of a large number of temples. For
example one of these 80 cases, the “1094: Benares, Ghurid army” case,
refers to the Ghurid royal army that “destroyed nearly one thousand
temples, and raised mosques on their foundations”[citation needed].
This figure of 80 cases doesn’t include a Ram temple at Ayodhya.
Following allegations that the Hari-Vishnu inscription corresponded to
an inscription dedicated to Vishnu that was supposedly missing in the
Lucknow State Museum since the 1980s, the museum director Jitendra
Kumar stated that the inscription had never been missing from the
museum, although it wasn’t on display and he showed the inscription of
his museum at a press conference for all to see. It was different in
shape, colour and text contents from the Vishnu-Hari inscription.[13].
There were also attempts by Babri Masjid supporters to prohibit all
archaeological excavations at the disputed site. Naved Yar Khan’s
petition at the Supreme Court to prohibit all archaeological
excavations at the Mosque site was rejected.[14]. Similarly there were
questions raised as to what level the archaeological digging should
continue – should they stop till the point an evidence of Hindu temple
was found with both Buddhists and Jains asking for the digging to
continue much further to find if they could also lay claim to the site.
[15]
Pillar bases were first discovered by the ASI’s former director-
general BB Lall in 1975. His report gave an enormous boost to the Ram
Temple cause. It was however criticised by archaeologist D. Mandal. In
the excavation of 2003, fifty of “pillar bases” were once again
unearthed. Although they appear to be aligned, D. Mandal’s conclusion
by archaeological theory stated that: “pillar bases” belonged to
different periods, that is, all of them had never existed together at
any point of time; they were not really in alignment with one another;
they were not even pillar bases, but junctions of walls, bases of the
load-bearing columns at the intersections of walls.[16]
Alleged Flaws of the ASI Report
While in its interim report the ASI said it had found no signs of the
temple.[17] The final ASI report of August 25, 2003 stated that there
was evidence of a large Hindu temple having pre-existed the Babri
mosque. Midway into the excavations the courts ordered the removal of
the head of the ASI excavations for not following the excavation norms.
[18]
On the basis of these investigations Suraj Bhan and former Chairman of
the Indian Council of Historical Research Irfan Habib concluded that
what the ASI found was as a previous layer of mosque.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2981106.stm
Political Reaction
The leaders of Babri Masjid Action – Reconstruction committee
expressed reservations on the credibility of the ASI in carrying out
the assignment impartially owing to political pressure. ASI comes
under the Ministry of Human Resource Development, which was headed by
Murli Manohar Joshi, himself an accused in the Babri Masjid demolition
case.[19] The Muslim side expressed doubts on the final ASI report
claiming that the notes and other draft items were supposedly
destroyed by the ASI with the 24 hours of the final report submission.
[20] The sounding tests by a Canadian agency mentioned that some
structure or anomalies could be established but that could not be a
temple on a conclusive note.
Prof Suraj Bhan, who has personally taken an inventory of the site,
said the ASI had clubbed pottery from the 11th to the 19th century
together and not really distinguished them into different periods. He,
however, questioned the basis for the ASI interpreting that a massive
burnt brick structure was that of a Ram temple. “The Babri Masjid had
a planned structure and the ASI findings conform to this plan. The
Nagar style of star-shaped temple construction prevalent between the
9th and 12th century is not at all present at the structure,” he said.
One of the central findings in the ASI report was a very large temple,
the foundations of which far exceed the circumference of the Babri
mosque.
Along the same lines as Habib, Muslim Personal Law Board secretary
Mohammed Abdul Rahim Quraishi “said a team of well-known
archaeologists including Prof. Suraj Bhan had visited the site and
inspected the excavated pits and was of [the] opinion that there was
evidence of an earlier mosque beneath the structure of the Babri
Masjid”.[21]
The two agree on a pre-Babri Muslim presence, but it should ne noted
that how Quraishi’s “interpretation” of the findings is already
starkly at variance with Habib’s: the latter saw no mosque underneath,
while Quraishi’s employee Bhan did. This indicates the non-seriousness
of at least one of these interpretations, possibly both. By contrast,
the ASI team could settle for a single interpretation, just one, which
also converges with S.P. Gupta’s, K.N. Dixit’s and R.K. Sharma’s
reading.
Noted lawyer Rajeev Dhawan said the Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid case
has taken a wrong turn and the ASI report had no historical or moral
significance and the conclusions were based on political
considerations. However, anti-temple lawyer, Mr. Dhawan said, “The
legal case did not relate to the question of whether a temple existed
on the site or not”.[22]
Court defers the use of ASI report
The Special full Bench of the Allahabad High Court, hearing the
Ayodhya title suits on February 3 ruled that the report of the
Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), which carried out excavations to
find out whether a temple had ever existed at the place where once the
Babri Masjid stood, would be seen only in the light of further
evidence in the case. The three-member bench further remarked “no
doubt, the objections taken against the report have to be considered
before the ASI report is acted upon but that situation will arise only
when the court decides the matter finally.”
The court remarked that it would not be advisable nor expedient to
make any comments at this stage regarding the correctness or accuracy
of the report, or the tenability or otherwise of the objections.
Whether the report is biased or suffers from discrepancies or
infirmities, or is unacceptable, for various reasons stated in
objections have to be considered along with the rest of the evidence
that has been brought on record, the Bench added and said that in its
considered view this is not the proper stage to pronounce on these
points.
These harsh, unkind and unpleasant comment aimed at the ASI, a very
reputed institution and the excavating team of experts who after toil
of months unearthed ruins of archeological materials that clearly
indicated presence of a Hindu temple prior to Babri mosque. The
finding must be taken as its face value without implying political-
religious motive to the excavating team. Let the high court decide to
what extent findings would help it come to a just, legal and human
conclusion.
The Sunni Central Waqf Board, one of the litigants in the dispute,
said it was ‘vague and self contradictory’. They accused ASI report of
ignoring the discovery of glazed tiles and pottery indicative of
Muslim settlements in the area before Babar’s invasion. It is very
likely, but that does not disprove the existence of vast structure
indicative of a Hindu temple prior to Babri mosque on the same site.
Advocate Zafaryab Jillani, counsel for the board said that the Waqf
board would produce ‘irrefutable ‘ historical and archeological
evidence to challenge the findings. Jillani told the BBC as saying,
the ASI has ‘misinterpreted the findings’.
The ASI kept their neutrality by declining to make any comments on the
team’s findings and left the matter to the High court. The Muslim
contestants do not deny the authenticity of the discovery of
archeological materials but only differ in interpretation and refused
to take evidence as conclusive evidence that the structure was a Hindu
temple.
See also
•Ayodhya
•Babri Masjid
•Ram Janmabhoomi
•Ramayana
References
1.^ (B.B. Lal (Manthan,10/1990) and S.P. Gupta (Indian Express, 2
December 1990), and annexure 28 to the VHP document Evidence for the
Ram Janmabhoomi Mandir.)
2.^ (Professor B. B. Lal, in the Hindu: 1 July 1998.)
3.^ (Indian Express, 6 December 1990)
4.^ (Narain, Harsh. 1993. The Ayodhya Temple Mosque Dispute)
5.^ Sandipan Deb in Outlook India, 23 June 2003
6.^ a b c d e (Pioneer, 9 September 2003. Ayodhya: lost and found By
Sandhya Jain)
7.^ [1] Rediff Online News, March 19, 2003
8.^ a b c d (Puratattva, No. 23 (1992-3), pp. 35 ff.)
9.^ (Hans Bakker: Ayodhya)
10.^ The ASI Report – a review
11.^ http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-joshi30403.htm
Countercurrents / Outlook
12.^ http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep08/top.asp Deccan
Herald September 8, 2003
13.^ (Hindustan Times, 8 May 2003)
14.^ (The Hindu, 10 June 2003)
15.^ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2848393.stm BBC News 14
March 2003)
16.^ (http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030602&fname=Cover
+Story+%28F%29&sid=1 The Outlook)
17.^ ‘No sign’ of Ayodhya temple
18.^ Rediff
19.^ Tripathi, Purnima. “The Ayodhya dig”. Frontline.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2007/stories/20030411004102700.htm.
20.^ Milligazette
21.^ (“ASI ‘finds’ temple, Muslim front says no”, Hinduonnet.com, 25
August. 2003)
22.^ Historians find flaws in ASI report Escaping the ASI’s final
conclusions
External links
•Ayodhya the spiritual abode. Complete details of Ayodhya, proofs and
documents.
•Hindu Temple lays beneath – dailypioneer.com – August 26, 2003
•The “Ram temple” drama – Frontline
•ASI Report Critical Study – The Hindu (newspaper)
•ASI fabricating evidence – The Hindu (newspaper)
•Times of India news on ASI excavations Times of India
•The ASI report- The Hindu Daily
•Layers of truth From The Week – shows artists impression of ASI
underlying temple
•Ayodhya on YouTube
•[2]
•[3]
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.orghttp://wikipedia.org/wiki/
Archaeology_of_Ayodhya“
Categories: Ayodhya | History of Uttar Pradesh | Archaeological sites
in Uttar Pradesh
•This page was last modified on 16 September 2010 at 19:10.
•Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike
License;
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
Inc., a non-profit organization.
…and I am Sid Harth
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28/09/2010
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http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/28/cwg-oops-congress-wealth-games/
An Express Investigation on CWG: Their Common Wealth
82 Comments
Shobhana K
Tags : commonwealth games 2010, Delhi CWG, CWG scam, Suresh Kalmadi
Posted: Tue Sep 28 2010, 04:29 hrs
Updated: Tue Sep 28 2010, 14:22 hrs
Parents, are you listening?Sex ‘n Sena Hockey Sex scandalBJP Father
and daughter, uncle and nephew, twin siblings, mother and son, sister
and brother, father and daughter and daughter-in-law — the list of
employees of the Organising Committee of the Commonwealth Games,
chaired by Suresh Kalmadi, includes at least 38 of the top brass who
are related to each other, an investigation by The Indian Express has
revealed.
For the record, these men and women were hired after they responded to
ads in newspapers, sent applications and were then interviewed by a
committee.
The man who heads the committee, N P Singh, Joint Director, General
Administration and Workforce, says it is a “coincidence that so many
of them are inter-related.” Asked if this raised questions of
propriety and favouritism, Singh said: “What is more important is
their competence, not the relationships. This is just a coincidence.”
This is what Singh calls “just a coincidence”:
1. Four nephews of OC vice chairman Randhir Singh have been hired.
Three work in the Commonwealth Games Association Relations (dealing
with Commonwealth associations of 71 countries), directly under
Singh.
Amar Singh Wazir and Yadu Raj Singh are Directors; Tejinder Singh is
Project Officer while the fourth nephew is with the OC’s Spectator
Services wing as Assistant Project Officer. A Director is paid an
average salary of Rs 79,000 a month (see box).
When asked if his uncle helped, Yadu Raj Singh said: “I have a strong
background in sports and communication. I have previously worked for a
marketing firm which works for several golf tournaments in India. In
2006, I was asked if I wanted to be part of Commonwealth Games. After
this, I was selected through interview and was sent to Melbourne for
two months of training. I am handling some of the biggest Commonwealth
Games contingents.”
Said Amar Singh Wazir: “If my uncle was responsible for my job, then
he would have straightaway appointed me at a senior post of a Deputy
Director General. I joined OC as Project Officer and was promoted (to
Director) on the basis of appreciation letters.”
Asked to explain the presence of three relatives in the OC, Randhir
Singh said that in a “royal family like mine,” several people are
inter-related. “If my own children were employed here, then it would
make sense. Not some distant far-off relations. They applied and they
are all smart, sensible boys,” Singh said.
2. Bharati Singh Rao, daughter of Rao Inderjit Singh, Congress MP from
Gurgaon, is Director, Image and Look. She was hired a year ago. She
declined to comment but her father, when contacted, said: “She is a
graphic designer. She has a degree from Fine Arts college in Delhi.
She has been working in her personal capacity and has nothing to do
with me.”
3. Sangeeta Welinkar is Additional Director General (Image and Look)
and her son Udhav Waman Welinkar quit the OC last month as
Administrative Assistant (Volunteer programme). Sangeeta Welinkar is
in the core committee of OC chairman Suresh Kalmadi and worked with
him during the Pune Youth Games as well. She draws a salary of Rs 1.31
lakh per month. Her son Udhav’s salary was Rs 33,500 per month.
Welinkar refused to comment on the issue. “I have nothing to say. You
should talk to the Secretary General. And my son quit a long time
back,” she said.
4. Vivek Raja, son of P K Murlidharan Raja, Secretary General of the
Boxing Federation, is working with the OC as Director, Workforce,
which is also partly responsible for hiring staff. “My father did not
even know when I was applying in this organisation. I have been hired
based on my experience and not because of my connection. My previous
experience includes working in Barclays and Kelly Services which
handled several corporate clients like Siemens and J P Morgan,” Raja
said.
5. Raj Singh is OC’s Competition Manager, his daughter Manisha Sharma
is Administrative Assistant (Ticketing) and his daughter-in-law
Shelkha Sharma is a receptionist in Kalmadi’s office. Raj Singh is
also Vice President of the Wrestling Federation. “Manisha and Shelkha
are working in their own capacity. I was not even in town when they
filled in the applications. They are highly qualified, they don’t even
need the job, they are working to get experience,” Singh said.
6. Shikha Verma is Director, Creative Cultural Events, and her twin
sister Shipra Verma is Director (Protocol ). Many in the OC confuse
one with the other. “I am basically a model, I came to work here for
experience. My sister is a basketball player and a lecturer in DU. She
had left the OC to go back to college but now, for the last few
months, she is back,” said Shikha Verma.
7. Jamal Raazi is Director (Technology) and his wife Sana Raazi is
Project Officer (Technology). Both were promoted two months ago. “I
work in the technical side, while she is more into operations. We both
joined together. We have applied and have gone through the entire
process of interview before being selected,” said Jamal Raazi.
8. Syed Yasar Ibrahim is Assistant Project Officer (Venue Development
& Overlays) and his wife Umama Ibrahim is APO (Venue Development and
Overlays). “I had joined the Organising Committee in 2007 after I
completed MBA in sports management. My wife completed her engineering
from Amity College in Lucknow. They needed engineers, so she applied
and joined in 2009,” said Syed Yassar Ibrahim.
9. Siddarth Mall is Assistant Project Officer (Sponsorship and Sales)
and wife Deepali Kapoor is APO of the Volunteer Programme. “I have
been a state-level cricket player and I also have a background in
marketing, I worked earlier for J K Tyres and Eicher. I joined the
Organising Committee a year back. My wife was working here for the
last three years. She was working earlier for a government body, I do
not remember the name,” Mall said.
10. Capt N L Khan is Director (Administration) and his wife Geeta Khan
is APO (Spectator Services). When contacted, Khan said: “Whether my
wife works here or not is not a newspaper’s business.”
11. C S Rathi is Assistant Project Officer (Sports) and his son Ajay
Rathi is APO, (Lawn Bowl). “I am an ex-Navy personnel,” said C S
Rathi, “I have myself participated in the walking marathon in 1990 at
the Beijing Asian Games, my record was not broken for 10 years. I
joined OC in 2006 after applying through an advertisement.” He said
that as soon as his son graduated in physical education, he applied
for the job. “My son is also an athelete,” he said.
12. Col Surinder Kumar is Project Officer (Office Administration) and
his son Shashwat is APO (Sports). “It is coincidental that we have
joined together. We have nothing to hide. My son told the interviewers
that his father is working here. My four generations have been working
in the Army. We do not have any godfather in the OC who gave us this
job,” said Kumar.
13. Savita Thakur is Assistant Project Officer (Ticketing) and her
sister Babita Thakur is Administrative Assistant (Transport). “I was
registered with naukri.com and that is how I got this job. I was
earlier working for an airline in their ticketing department. When I
joined, I saw there were several vacancies, so I told my sister who
was working in an insurance firm to apply and she was selected,”
Savita Thakur said.
14. Aparna Ghosh is Director (Venue Operations) and her niece Aneesha
Mitra is Administrative Assistant (Ceremonies). “I am coach of
basketball and I have been working with the OC for three years.
Aneesha is my niece and there was an opportunity so she joined.”
15. Anita Guliani is Administrative Assistant (Administration) and her
daughter Mansi Guliani is Administrative Assistant (Ceremonies). “My
mother was working with Athletics Federation of India and she joined
the Organising Committee soon after its formation. I came to know
there were vacancies, so I gave my resume,” said Mansi Guliani.
16. Avny Lavasa is Project Officer (Queen’s Baton Relay) and her
brother Abir Lavasa is APO (Venue Operations). “My sister has been
working for the OC since February 2008, she has done a course in
sports management from Melbourne. I am a Ranji-level cricket player.
We were interviewed before being given this job,” said Abir Lavasa.
17. Jeet Ram is Stenographer (Ceremonies) and his son Neeraj is
Administrative Assistant (Technology). “Both my son and I have joined
the OC using fair means. I have been working here since 2006 while my
son is here for the last one year. He has done his diploma in computer
hardware, so the Technology unit hired him,” said Jeet Ram.
18. D Anand Kumar is Project Officer (Sports) and his wife D Rama Devi
is APO (Accounts). “We both got appointment letters together and we
have been with the OC since November 2005. My husband had earlier
worked in Afro-Asian Games, so he had experience,” said Rama Devi.
19. Pratap Bhosale is Project Officer (Logistics) and his daughter
Priyanka P Bhosale is Administrative Assistant (Cleaning and Waste
Management). “I have done environment management from Pune. Me and my
father have earlier worked in the Pune Youth Games. We both were
called by Delhi Organising Committee as soon as the games wrapped in
Pune,” Priyanka Bhosale said.
An Express Investigation on CWG: Their Common WealthFather and
daughter, uncle and nephew, twin siblings, mother and son, sister and
brother, father and daughter and daughter-in-law — the list of
employees of the Organising Committee of the Commonwealth Games,
chaired by Suresh Kalmadi, includes at least 38 of the top brass who
are related to ea ….Read more
82 Comments |
to be or not to be
By: padalaviswesh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 20:49:03 PM
so long we vote to the wrong persons by looking at their
family,caste,creed,their religion, riches,glamour,there may not be
much change in our country affairs.we should think well before we ink
and to ink correctly one should have the capacity to think correctly
in judjing the correct person that he or she is going to elect.There
should be a law to blacklist the corrupted and punish them severely
keeping in mind the country’s prosperity.The younger generation should
have disciplined and properly educated, not aimed at riches but at
least some part of it to help and serve the helpless in the
country.Try to elect leaders like Lal bahadur sastry,Subash chandra
bose,or leaders with great dynamism and the the country will
prosper.Democracy in our country is too free without fulfilling our
rights to it or at times it is rigid to fufill some peoples
interest.The custom of political,or power heirarchy should end like
father to son,son to son and etc.,Jaiho India.
Put an end to dynastic rule. It is not british monarchy. Need social
justice
By: tperumal | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 19:19:10 PM
There is absolute need for reservation in politics. The sons and
daughter companies should not be allowed to take the mantle. Isnt it
the same ideology this politics fought against and came to power.
Lalloo cannot appoint his son, nor can mulayam. Sonia should quit
along with Rahul.Same for karunanidhi.This should be done for social
justice. There are lot better non corrupt leaders.Indian leadership
should improve, by putting an end to this dynastic rule. They can be
grassroot level party worker, and can climb the ladder like others,
instead of landing on the top.
When corruption is accepted as a way of life
By: Jas | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:57:32 PM
It is just another sad story that leads me to think – Does stupid
people deserve any better?
Chalti ka naam India
By: Anil Sabaji | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:36:03 PM
We all know we have been taken for a big ride in the name of game by
the Party in Power. We know Kalmadi since he was an Collection agent
of Congress during Konkan Railway Project and beware he will head
future Nuclear Power Station Project as he is the only one who has got
exposure to handling mega projects. I feel proud of Singh who
obediently seeing everything in the eyes of Sanyasi but not capable of
doing anything. India’s yuvaraj is doing his apprenticeship in
politics under leaders like Kalmadi and Singh, so you are assured of
what to expect from him. I have stopped dreaming of India becoming a
clean nation. Patha nahi mei kab gun leke sab ko maarunga..thats the
kind of fire in my belli seeing rampant corruption from chaprasi to
chaiman, from chamche se netha..
CWG
By: uday | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:35:32 PM
INDIA can orgnise World cup cricket,ASIAD successfully,whatz so
special with CWG why are we failing this time Simple reason CWG OC is
a body 100% occoupied by politicians ,Sarkari Babu and their families
who have a oxford degree on amashing wealth but not a high school
certifcate on quality and accountablity
kith and kins, good for nothing
By: paul USA | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:16:31 PM
We all know merit never weigh that much than back door entry Urge IE
to dig out haryana/Punjab boards,corporations and other public
undertakings,hundreds cousins/sons/daughters/ wives,not even
matriculates,been working for over years. Who so ever elevated
politician, CHAIRMAN/VICE CHAIRMAN MEMBER/DIRECTOR,these politicians
priortize posting of their owns,then MLA’s coming to attend the
session, never travel in official chef driven cars,their personal
vehicles,mostly maintenance of their personal vehicls/house
furnishings / landscaping/maid servants/cooks at tzx payers expenses.
5-6 servants 24/7 at their residence,but seen collecting their monthly
pay check once a month in the office building. shame shame shame EH
HAI MERRA INDIA
MAKE HAY WHILE THE SUN SHINES
By: RAJAT KUMAR MOHINDRU .JALANDHAR CITY .PUNJAB | Tuesday , 28 Sep
’10 18:13:50 PM
The investigation carried out by the Indian express in regard to the
Commonwealth Games is highly appreciable .As the picture is clear that
Make Hay while the Sun Shines is absolutely true , the reason that a
caucus formed to manuplate the expenditure to exhaust for the
commonwealth Games . as Investigations reveal that the appointed are
like a interlocking chain having nears and dears of the high ups . a
very strange picture , Is this we are going to show the Global ? The
allegations of misappropriation of funds in regard to the expenditure
for Commonwealth games cannot be ruled out due to the investigation
conducted by the Indian express . Congratulations to the team of
Indian Express to unearth the true picture .
HELL ON EARTH
By: varghese | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:11:37 PM
It is not corruption incident but a BLOODY HELL ON EARTH especially in
INDIA OR BHARAT entangled with whole family.
Their common wealth
By: Ghulab Khush | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 18:02:16 PM
Could all this have been going on without the knowledge of Manmohan
Singh? Difficult to believe. The role of M S Gill in allowing the
stink in the CWG preparations also needs to be investigated.
India’s pride at stake
By: Praween Jha | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 17:46:40 PM
I fully agree with kerisnaji Rao , that we should stop finding fault
till games are over. Our pride is at stake and that is more important
than discovering more corruption and irregularities in the OC
functioning. We must also highlight the postive aspects as i think lot
of good work has also been done by honest Indians. For all the goof
ups the Congress government at centre and Sheila govt are more guilty
than Suresh Kalmadi. Sheila Dixit is the main culprit.
family planning wealth
By: rakesh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 17:30:54 PM
you will find sangeeta’s whole family involved with the events she is
engaged with and that is how “mil baat ke khaate hai” this family.
each one in the family benefits – their names should also get due
publicity and their earnings should also be given due importance for
public knowledge.
Mr
By: kerisnaji Rao | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 16:11:24 PM
Please , let the games finish successfully. India’s reputation is at
stake.You want to catch the thieves catch them later. Do not stir the
pot now.We are all worried as to what will happen next! We want the
games to be a success .
May God save us all
By: John | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:40:31 PM
May God save India and Indians!! No one else can do this job!!
Vote for congress and we will have the result in front of you.
By: freddie | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:29:20 PM
Indian are dogs and will always be a dogs. Who like to lick congress
who is looting the country. Indian and middle class people deserve
this. Congress is the main looter of Indian economy. Whenever congress
want to make somebody a PM it is always been somebody dumb and puppet
who is controll by the dyansty ruler. Who think that the Indian wealth
is the business of dyansty for generation. I see many youth who are
been misguided by the party.
Why do politicians need a bigger “main” job?
By: Bu Fatroosh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:28:31 PM
Politicians ostensibly join this “profession” for the “social” cause
and work for salary as any of us do. But, what I have never been able
to figure out is why they have to and why they are allowed to double/
triple hat officially and on top of being a minister / CM / Governor /
etc they then become presidents/chairmen of sports bodies / events?!?
E.g., Sharad Pawar and Suresh Kalmadi to name only two of scores of
them in India!!! Shame!
coomon-wealth
By: Parvez Ali | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:22:06 PM
Immediatly after the CWG we need to tide up the entire team. Kalmadi
to send his constuency to work for the people and to do politics.
Mr
By: Sujith Sidharthan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:07:15 PM
Its a shame that a progressive India has to put up with the likes of
Suresh Kalmadi, who has been at the helm of IOC for generations. A
recent attempt at change of guard was met with some bizzare bylaws
which resist govt interference in Olympic associations. But when a man
with no sporting credentials is holding the post for such prolonged
periods speaks volumes about the deteriorating health of the
organisation. The diagnosis is obvious and needs urgent resuscitation
and cure. This news comes as no surprise as this man has developed
such a thick skin that he will come out with such shameless
explanation. While being at the head of the ‘project’ boasted to
overtake the success of Beijing Olympics and biggest game ever, this
man seem to be leading it to the worst game ever. The recent
proclamation that the cleanliness of the games village was not his
responsibility epitomises the moral character and leadership
credentials of this man. Wake up India…cleanse this tumour or …perish.
response to sujith sidharthan
By: santhosh abraham | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:30:15 PM
well written
Shame on you all !
By: Indian | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 15:00:51 PM
India is not great. It thinks it’s great. It is one of the worst in
almost all moral parameters. Well said by Randy, it’s all because of
corrupt/incompetent/nepotic policitians elected by lazy, dumb, greedy,
corrupt population.
Possibly not evil?
By: Vidyut | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:42:01 PM
Is it possible that some families are more involved in such things
than others, so there can be several members? I think if they appeared
for interviews and got the jobs, it is less important how many people
from a family came than how they did their jobs, or if corruption can
be proved. To have rigged up interviews, its not necessary to only
appoint people from a family. There are hajaar ways. Take money to
give jobs – an Indian classic. Give jobs in name only to people who
don’t really work – story of many government servants. Have known
people to create a network to defraud the system….. many ways. If it
can be proven, it must be punished. Otherwise, I don’t see the crime
in people related with each other being given jobs.
corruption and commonwealth
By: harish chandra | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:26:35 PM
Corruption has become the hallmark of UPA regime.Be it the CBI, CVC or
any other institution , all of them have been moulded by the current
regime to shield the corrupt. So, when you are appointing a person of
doubtful integrity as CVC disregarding the spirit of apex court
judgment,you infact already have assured the safety to likes of
Kalmadis and his cohorts, who are shamelessly running the show and
have brought this spectacle. Also, all this in the name of aam adami.
So much about the sincerity of scholar Prime-Minister and the real and
totally unaccountable power behind the scene-Smt Sonia. What right
does she have to carry the title of “Gandhi” when she is farthest from
the idea of Gandhi? . It is also very nauseating that you offer
compensation to those pelting stones, showing brazen loyalty towards
Pakistan and destroying public property while millions of people are
suffering . This is not the way to deal with lawlessness in
Kashmir.Whole country is stinking.
An Express Investigation on CWG:
By: P.C.LUTHRA | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:16:31 PM
HANDOVER THIS COUNTRY TO SUCH “LOOTERAS” (DECEITS) AND TAKE “SANYAS”
SINCE THERE DOES NOT EXIST GOVT CONTROL.AS IS EVIDENT FROM SPEED OF
WORK IN CWG 2010 VENUES ABOUT SANITATION AND UPDATING OF FACILITIES
AND LAVISH SPENDING ON BUYING EQUIPMENTS THAT WE DO NOT WORK & NEGLECT
DUTY & RESPONSIBILITY.SEE CONDITION OF ROADS AND TRAFFIC SIGNALS THERE
ARE HUGE DEBRIS, FILTH, REFUSE, DIRT WHILE TRAFFIC SIGNALS OUT OF
ORDER ON DATE. IT IS DESPITE THE FACT TEAM OF NCR MINISTERS IS DEPUTED
TO LOOK AFTER AND EARMARK AREA LYING NOT DONE UP. STREET POLES WITHOUT
BULBS/TUBES ETC. WORK DONE BY MCD ON ROAD SIDES FOR CWG 2010 IS FOUND
NOT DONE AT ALL. SILT FROM ROAD SIDELINES STACKED ON FOOTPATHS,BRICKS
HAVE GONE DOWN SINCE SET WITHOUT PROPER FOUNDATION, POST OFFICE
WITHOUT LETTER BOXES AS THEY HAVE BEEN REMOVED FOR CWG 2010 WELCOME.
SILT & GARBAGE LYING IN HEAPS IN POST OFFICE PREMISES.THIS IS OUR
PRIDE.
Common Wealth at Stake
By: Balaji | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:07:55 PM
Those who witnessed the pace at which the work had undertaken would
definitely agree that such mega events are not our cup of tea. Money
earned by the common man is at stake. We have spent huge amount to
create this mess. Even though we have the infrastructure, manpower to
create any magic, till the corrupt politians are there in our country,
we cannot achieve anything.
So whats new!
By: C Srinivas | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:06:35 PM
There is hardly anything new that we as readers don’t know. This is a
country of a million Kalmadi’s and do we even care about the rest of
them. Did you guys object to rampant nepotism in Politics? You hailed
these guys coming into politics using their family names as the “new
hope” of India when you very well know that there might be a million
deserving candidates if only the playing field were level. This report
is nothing but an attempt to cash in on the public cynicism on the CWG
games. If you were so concerned you would wage a campaign to root out
all kinds of nepotism that prevails in this country. Newspapers have
virtually converted India into a monarchy with the Gandhi’s as the
reigning kings. Who gave you the right? They dont even have a 30%
support in the country….did you ever think about that? Would these so
called jokers get a job, an election ticket or be any good to this
country without their family name, muscle and money power? You know
the answer and so do I!
surprise
By: badrinarayanan.l | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:04:56 PM
It is really a surprise to note the silence of President of congress –
I, on allegations made against Mr. kalmadi for the past several months
by the media with full of supporting datas. Probably congress-I is
getting ready for next election and generating fund.
It would be interesting to know ……
By: Bhadury | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:03:11 PM
It would be interesting to know how many of the contractors who are
working in the CWG projects are related to some of those in the OC
positions. Also would be interesting to know how many of the
contractors who worked in Pune games under Suresh Kalmadi are also
working as contractors in various CWG projects. That would show a
money trail to Suresh Kalmadi and his hench-men and women.
mrs
By: anita | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:02:55 PM
There should be exemplary punishment for these people. In all walks of
life where there is an involvement of the Indian state, we find
corruption, inefficiency, cronyism. To say that it is a waste of tax
payers money is not enough. In our lives, we make serious effort to
avoid wasting money, so how do we allow these vermins to get away with
wasting our money. Are they not ashamed? There are people dying of
hunger but grains rot. The Ministry says that they cannot distibute.
The PDS is inept. Whatever the government touches, it corrodes.
PM must go
By: shyam kishore | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 14:00:06 PM
The PM should go . He is only interested in creating a good image
about himself abroad . he lacks administrative qualities completly ,
He is unaware of what is happening under his nose and too scared of
his coilation parities and his boss . I dont see why he is still
holding Mr Kalmadi and not initiating any action against him. The more
he continue the more damge is done to the nation .
Kalmadi
By: Dr K N Ninan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:50:51 PM
Kalmadi & Co should be hanged for bringing disgrace to this country
through their corruption, nepotism and inefficiency.Kudos to Indian
Express for exposing these crooks !
Common Political Wealth
By: Vinod | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:38:44 PM
So what? This is true everywhere in India. And not just that of the
ruling party. If the other one was in power, they would have put their
people in all these places. They are all politicians, please! they are
all doing the same business under different brand names! Whatever
people may shout, nothing can be done. So better be happy that atleast
some people are getting jobs.
Journalism of Courage?!
By: Sreekumar, Varathra | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:38:42 PM
Curiously, the newspaper does not point its fingers to the real
culprits – the present dynasty ruling (read: looting) India and its
ever-loyal Babu setup comprising mostly of “rootless wonders”. No
wonder, because the very same media played a very big role in bringing
them to power by painting everybody else as “anti-national”. If Indian
Express stands by its motto, it should hold its head high and say that
the “Emperor is Naked” instead of going for this type fly-by-night
“yellow journalism”.
common wealth
By: wd | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:38:14 PM
1.On the whole, no one is going to say the bunch has been competent.
2.Even if they are qualified, I am pretty sure that they would be
choosen over some equally or even more qualified. 3.The salaries are
just so high! Felt sick. 4.The explanations like royal family, don’t
need job working for experience etc were just amusing and tragic.
5.India will progress when we stop this trend. its just polished
casteism.
Action Plan
By: Ashish Srivastava | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:37:40 PM
Too many columns are written about what ails us. We get infuriated
with the disclosures. But that is all that we do. Perhaps that is all
that we can do. And the people sitting up there know that and
therefore continue in their evil ways. I am afraid to say it but yes,
raping the country. What is needed is an action plan, perhaps to be
led by the media. The media might shy away saying that they are
impartial commentators. But they ought to remember that sooner or
later the impasse will affect them too. There is no time to be an
impartial commentator. It is time for action!
Rahulbaba will come and rescue
By: Nimish Mehta | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:32:09 PM
All these parasites need not worry – Rahulbaba will come in the media
one day and will just tell that we should not be concerned, organizing
games is a tough job and we should allow the committee to have “some
flexibility”. Matter ends, Rahul baba’s iconic image will help accept
this logic just as he did it with Omar Abdullah. After all, India is
his fiefdom! By the way, heartiest congratulations to Indian Express
team for “your habit and your history”.
DON’T ENVY!
By: Nagarajan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:27:04 PM
Given a chance and connected with CWG, most of us would have somehow
or the other used our influence to get a job for family members. Why
this envy and hypocritical comments. You mean to say if BJP or for
that matter any other party, the jobs would have been given to me and
you based on our qualificaitons. At present in India, even private
companies, influence and connecitons have become part of them game to
get job.
Common wealth Games
By: randy | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:20:27 PM
I like to thank The Indian Express for digging all this information to
show how deeply our system is damaged or how unsystematic we are.
Every Indian is responsible for it.( ignoring it, watching it like
nothing happen. I think we should be on the streets to denounce the
games and blocks the roads to teach a lesson the these stupid
politicians. To tell them why they took so irresponsible decision to
go for CWG when we have 880 millions of poor are underfed and have no
place to live. We have 60 million children working laborer instead of
going to school and Indian insensitively employ them. Shame on us.
Shame on us.
PM should go first
By: Chandrakant Marathe | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:15:12 PM
All the mess created in India whether CWG, Kashmir,Maoist policy,2G
scam, etc. is because we have a weak prime minister of a corrupt
congress party. First PM should go and his party should be defited.
Weak PM
By: Nationalist | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:43:04 PM
The weak PM gave sound thrashing to the BJPwallas but they havenot
taken any lessons. As far as corruption is concerned, do not forget
tehelka, coffin scam. It is the case of pot calling the kettle black
Moral Corruption
By: sifarnama | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:14:02 PM
Why restrict this to the CWG. This has become a norm for all handouts
in this country. Government projects have become a routine family
affair and direct and indirect methods have been employed to favour
family members. Worst is that Govt. of India who should take the lead
in routing this, point towards court and police to take up the matter,
knowing very well, that the process is endless and the accused can sit
comfortably, as it shall be years till anything gets proven. Sadly the
public sits and waits for god to come and cites inability to correct
the situation. Is it not the tax payer who should stand firm, and
refuse to accept status quo.
It is not but our fault
By: sujeet sinha | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:13:30 PM
It is not about CWG but every where. It is just because we are ready
to eat shit, we are being offered the same on everday basis on every
corner. India and Indians have a long tradition of being ” SELFISH”
and thats the reason we get to see all this amusment if life. Unless
we start thinking for others, believe me it is not the end worst is
yet to come.
common wealth -kalmadi
By: randy | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:11:40 PM
Nepotic, corrupt & incompetent leaders; choosen and elected by greedy
and corrupt population Period.
we will forget it all soon
By: AK GOEL | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:11:26 PM
Whichever way we can look at these revelations and investigations made
about CWG affairs ,the sad part is that for three full years there
will be no elections in the country and so everyone so elected and in
position will sit pretty on their chairs and will do nothing.Come
election time after 3 yrs and the electorate will vote again in same
manner ,without taking into account any of these revelations. This
happens everytime and so will happen again and those in power know
this too.
COINCIDENTAL UNDERMINING OF PM
By: Indianglobal | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:48:54 PM
THIS IS MORE THAN ENOUGH FOR A COMPULSORY RESIGNATION OF PM MANMOHAN
SINGH AND HIS GOVT.,A COINCIDECE AND REVELATION OF THE PLUNDERING OF
INDIAN PEOPLES MONEY AT AN IMMENSE DIMENSION FOR THE UNDERMINING OF
CONGRESS PARTY IN DELHI. WHAT IS THE COMMENTS OF Mr.RAHUL GANDHI ON
THIS DISASTER? IS IT MORE THAN A MUBAI 26/11!
Rahul is no position to say anything about it
By: Jas | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 19:04:44 PM
What would he say? Isn’t he coming to the highest office through the
family ties?
corruption at Height
By: bharat | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:47:40 PM
Wow, what a coincident!!!!!! the same way in Corruption!!!!! this is
also a Corruption Incident, bloody hell!!!
common wealth
By: madhukar | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:43:55 PM
it is hard to believe that out of more than thousands of eligible
candidates, their relatives only met the criteria. also the contracts
for the construction work were given to their kiths and kins. we cant
expect anything better from a congress regime. hope the 2020 olympics
also will come to india, under the same administration.
CWG
By: Vinod | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:36:52 PM
You mean the BJP or BSP would have not put their people in these
places? Of course they would! open your eyes. All politicans are the
same!
so what!
By: sudhir suri | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:43:06 PM
One more scam, so what!Scams are top down and not bottom up. Bigger
scams have yet to surface.Since there is no organizational
accountability built (on purpose) from day one ,nothing will
happen,Indian intelligentsia has failed India.
commitment against robbers….
By: mittal | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:34:23 PM
These people think dat india z my own property..i can use(loot) it as
i want.so dese people shud b killed,hanged etc……for dis corruption…
from which nobody can nt courage to do dis type of work in future………..
Reply to CWG appointments
By: K.R.Devarajan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:22:36 PM
The above named officials should have discharged their duties
deligently, as they had the requisite expertise, not withstanding
their relationship.
Yatha Raja Thatha Praja
By: Sundaresan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:22:01 PM
Why blame these minions? If the elected/related-to-elected wealth-
mongers aka ministers/CM/Chairperson’s/”Sipahi’s” are all rendered so
by virtue of relations then it is only natural that the aam aadmi does
the same. Darling yeh hai india!!! IE will write abt it. beyond that
what can it do? they release publication of people closely associated
with the ruling family.
Common wealth
By: Balakotaiah | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:13:30 PM
Kalmdi is clear in his concious that he is guilty and will not
stepdown. PM and others says guilty will be punished. If a small class
four employee takes Rs10/- bribe he will loose his job and may be sent
to jail. In this case Kalamdi alone is not responsible for the mess,
may entire ruling collision. So whom to punish? Any courts (SC) can
come forward. I am 65 and I never saw a guilty politician punished in
our country. So why this hue and cry. People will forget all by end of
October 2010. You can go ahead Mr. Corrupts. Good luck to all of you.
THIS IS SO SHOCKING NEWS TO INDIANS
By: Rajendran PK | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:09:07 PM
ONE OF THE CREATIVE INVESTIGATIVE REPORT SINCE THEN THE CWC CRITICIZM
STARTED. THANKS TO IE FOR SUCH REPORT, THANKS TO REPORTERS SHOBHANA K
AND TEAM THOSE COLLECTED SUCH GOOD INFORMATION TO PUBLIC. IF WE GO
INTO DEEP IN EACH CONTRACTS AND SUB-CONTRACTS, WE MAY FIND LOTS OF
CURRUPTION AND MONEY EATING MACHINES, THOSE SERVE AS CWG COMMITEE –
RELATIVES ETC. THERE WILL BE LOTS OF COMPANIES IN THE FAKE NAME THOSE
LOOTED PUBLIC MONEY..CRORE 70000.00 SHOULD BE PUNISHED. TOGETHER WITH
MMS, SONIA AND KALMADI. I WAS HAVING GREAT RESPECT TO MR.MANMOHAN, NOW
EVERYTHING HAS LOST. HE IS NOT ABLE TO FIND OUT THE DEADLY CORRUPTION
UNDER HIS NOSE, AND TALKING ABOUT YEAR 2025 DREAM! AN INVESTIGATION OF
BILLION DEALS OF DEFENCE ARMS SUPPLY CONTRACTS ALSO TO BE
INVESTIGATED. THERE WILL BE SHOCKING RESULTS… NOW PUBLIC DONT THINK
MANMOHAN SINGH MINISTRY IS STRAIGHT FORWARD!
Naxals
By: Frustrated Indin | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:05:16 PM
When less than 1% of the nation is looting the nation and depriving
more than 99% of population. and still there is no one to complain and
take action, then it will encourage more people to take GUN into their
hands and very soon you will find Naxals will start finding support in
Urban India also….wait and watch….
I really admired UPA but after seeing this I have no more words
By: raj | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:02:26 PM
Good job UPA. You have to clean your acts your plate is also full like
BJP 1. CWG 2. 2G Scam 3. Sugar Scam 4. IPL Scam 5. Not taking strong
action on terrorist of all religions. Clean up fast or you will also
end up like BJP – India Shining but not peoples life.
Great piece of journalism
By: pradeep | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:58:12 AM
Hats-off to the Express reporter and editors who have pushed through
this story. Kudos for the amount of research gone into this report.
Having said that, will this report bring about any sense of
shamelessness or accountability? We have an insensitive South Block!
The prime minister hasn’t said a word against the wrong-doers of the
ConmanWealth Shame! Media guys..bring it on! Laage raho Media Bhais!
Corruption in CWG appointments
By: Dilip Mahanty | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:58:09 AM
Indian Express used to be exceptional because it used to do
investigative journalism in the past, unlike many other dailies. For
some reasons it has not been very investigative in recent times, It is
good that it is taking up the cudgel on behalf of ordinary citizens
and exposing the goons who are destroying the country’s reputation.
Please continue to do so. More power to your pen!
LEADERS ARE CARETAKERS
By: P V Gopalakrishna | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:52:42 AM
What are the leaders for if they cannot take care of their henchmen?
Common Wealth
By: RJ | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:51:16 AM
It would be naive in the extreme to believe that this trail begins or
ends with this family. For those of with some memory of Congress
corruption it is obvious that the sinews spread horizontally as well
as vertically.
we will foget it all soon
By: akgoel | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 13:14:56 PM
Whichever way we can look at these revelations and investigations made
about CWG affairs ,the sad part is that for three full years there
will be no elections in the country and so everyone so elected and in
position will sit pretty on their chairs and will do nothing.Come
election time after 3 yrs and the electorate will vote again in same
manner ,without taking into account any of these revelations. This
happens everytime and so will happen again and those in power know
this too.
Truth
By: Harsh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:17:47 AM
Investigation also has to be done about the role of media and court
cases in the creation of current CWG mess.
Good Work.
By: Priya | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:13:17 AM
Good work IE. Would have loved and appreciated the expose even better
if it had happened an year ago. One does wonder what the self
proclaimed god of investigative journalism Tehelka was doing all this
time?
HEADS TO ROLL
By: Sanjiv | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:12:25 AM
This is a loot.. People need to go to jail for this loot…PM and the
Congressis can in no way sit on this…NO WAY…HEADS WILL HAVE TO ROLL….
Head is Rolling
By: Radhey Gupta | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:48:03 PM
My head is already rolling and reeling. Can we take these people to
court somehow or they have impunity from courts in India. Then they
should be trid in international courts as CWG is an international
event.
Their Common Wealth
By: singh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:10:49 AM
they have their common wealth by family, for the family and of the
familty. that is how they have all looted the country. Kalmadi should
be hanged for this loot as is done in China. they dont deserve mercy.
Very meritorious work too…
By: Ramachandran | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:01:20 AM
I am planning to bring out a book – “All time great coincidences” –
and 38 kins getting jobs in the same small organisation on merit,
surely must qualifies among top entries. Need permission to use this.
Who is the right authority to grant permission, please? Sonia, PM or
Kalmadi? Also want readers to suggest title of 2nd book about
performance and rewards. With the games yet to begin, even tickets to
be printed, employees in the department of “Spectator Services” of OC
have done exemplary service – and got promotions. (This to be included
in a joke book, with original characters, to preserve the authenticity
of the joke on the nation by the CWG in tact).
Their common wealth.
By: Arun Jude Anthony | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 10:47:16 AM
Let me congratulate u & ur papper for this wonderfull story of this so
called UCWG.Not to mentioned we should not be amused for all the
corruptions which have taken place in this UCWG. All this drama which
is now unfolding it is all bcoz of kalmadi’s family org commtt. Every
indian & specially the delhi citizen should read this article it is an
eye opner to all of us. Me & my staff congratulate all of u. and i
hope more & more stories will come out. But nevertheless, this three
scoundrels kalmadi Banot & r singh has amass public money for they
families upto 4 generations. It is become gigusting to raed papers now
days.
CWG – Congress Wealth Games…
By: manch | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 10:43:58 AM
People are jealous of Congress’s wealth and power. They are also
brainwashed to believe India is a DEMOCRACY and a FREE country. Thats
why they feel bad!!! Please realize India is Sonia’s and her cronies
like Sheila Dixit, Kalmadi, Pawar’s etc. FIEFDOM. In their mind
Indians are supposed to pay taxes for them and their next 7
generation’s luxuries. They have rightfully taken over from our
previous rulers (Britishers) and celebrating this occasion so aptly
through CWG-2010 where Prince Charles will hand over the baton to the
president Pratibha Patil during the CWG (Congress Wealth Games)
opening ceremony…….. Jai Ho!!!!
Competence is showing
By: Mohit | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 10:16:12 AM
The (in)competence is surely showing in the way the games have shaped
up.
about Kalmadi
By: Bruce | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 9:40:59 AM
It is not a game. It is a chance to prove who we are and what India
is. But Kaladi proves who he is and for what he is. His main aim was
money. And he had taken how much he can. If a normal human does a
mistake, what the policemen are doing. Now they are being like a
security for him. Kalmadi should be punished. Let the pure poliician
rule our India. We need a good leaders.
Public memory in India is too short
By: ajay | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 9:22:30 AM
It is sad that all this hue and cry made over CWG will die once the
games are over both with media and Indian public. As you have aptly
mentioned in your coloumn “the common wealth” will be subjected to
some bureaucractic commissions which will take years to check years to
verify the omissions. Within a month of CWG we will have some new
sensational news to talk. So Kalmadi and Company would have stuffed
the currency in some foreign bank and would enjoy at the expense of
stupidity of public of India and press. For the last fifty years we
have witnessed innumerable instances. It is high time that we have
laws which are practiced in Islamic countries…Kalmadi and company
should be publicly caned…
so???
By: tirumala | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 8:10:30 AM
The guys don’t seem to be a total misfit. Some of them are quite
qualified to be there on their own merit. It might have so happened
that these fellows, being close to organizing committee, knew of the
openings and applied. Many others outside didn’t know and didn’t
apply. Probably, the advertisement for the openings was not done
properly and hence most of them who applied happened to be friends/
relatives of OC members. Just because CWG is in a mess doesn’t mean
that we should dig up and create stories. These people were working
for more than a year. Where was IE all these days?
All is well (or is it WHALE !?!)
By: manch | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:04:17 AM
Obviously, IE is late by a year to report it hence it is not a
problem. Carry on OC with your doings or lack of it…
Who are you?
By: Iquebal Ahmed | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:03:56 AM
Are you a relative of Mr. Kalmadi and hence one of the beneficiary?
Good expose
By: Abhiram | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 9:53:40 AM
I am amused to see this comment from “tirumala” – Instead of
congratulating the express for exposing people, this person seems to
condone their actions! Wow – no wonder we Indians elect corrupt
politicians!
not a relative nor a friend
By: tirumala | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 12:05:34 PM
No sympathy from my side to Kalmadi! Just that I wondered on the
coincidences and thought that there might be another explanation,
another point of view. IE’s view might be skewed as they want a story,
our view need not match, necessarily. IE never proved any of them
incapable for the positions. They just said these fellas are related
to so and so and left the rest to readers! CWG is messed up, doesn’t
mean we buy everything bout CWG newspapers throw at us! I might be
wrong. But I don’t mind giving a different point of view!
NEPOTISM IN INDIA
By: NIRANJAN | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 7:57:02 AM
NEPOTISM HAS STARTED IN INDIA LONG BACK. DURING THE TIME WHEN KINGS
RULES THEIR REALMS, THEY FOUND IT NECESSARY TO APPOINT THEIR RELATIVES
TO ENSURE LOYALTY. IT APPEARS THAT AFTER INDEPENDENCE, OUR NETAs HAVE
PERPETUATED THE PRACTICE TO ENSURE THAT THE GRAFT MONEY IS SPREAD
EQUALLY AMONG THEIR FAMILY AND FRIENDS!
Why we still won’t respond?
By: Sunil | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 7:38:35 AM
It seems like a family business of Kalmadi and his babus… Wake up my
fellow indian’s it’s high time to finish these currupted politicians
and beaurocrats…
Poor Shobhana
By: Kannan | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 7:24:14 AM
Shobhana, I don’t see anything wrong here. Afterall Kalmadi followed
his boss, Sonia, the MD and Chairperson of Congress (P) Ltd. When
politicians like Abdullah, Mooka, Gowda, Yadavs and Karunakaran can
exist in India and rule their territories, then why not Kalmadi?
Afterall everyone is from a royal family so better shut up.
reply to Kannan
By: Suresh | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 10:45:56 AM
Exactly…..as is this is something new in india…what are we cribbing
about??
Re: Shobhana
By: Avinash Baranwal | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 9:53:05 AM
Correct…when Rahul can be considered/groomed for future PM, why not
these tiny human beings? After all, does not some people are born with
talent in their family. Darwins laws of heritance applies here.
Ofcourse, it is a big mis-fortute for India, but then it is a
coincidence that India is doomed.
Please maintain dignity
By: Yashesh Bhatia | Tuesday , 28 Sep ’10 11:50:42 AM
kannan: this statement is very rude “Afterall everyone is from a royal
family so better shut up.” maintain decorum and respect journalism.
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society
28/09/2010
« Babri Scandal is Here to Stay
SPierce
(snipped)
the list of
employees of the Organising Committee of the Commonwealth Games,
chaired by Suresh Kalmadi, includes at least 38 of the top brass who
are related to each other, an investigation by The Indian Express has
revealed.
# Probably all true, but close connections can be just as efficient a
method of control as any other. The British Empire was run that way.
Come to think of it the Roman Empire was too.
World War 2 was also run by close family connections in Britain because the
aristocratic families were all connected and connected to parliamentary
figures. So you appoint those you know are loyal...notice the word
'appoint'.
It's safer to have family connections and obligations than trusting
ambitious outsiders. I believe the Chinese run the country that way
too...harsh but efficient.
Democratic methods don't have a good record for loyalty and efficiency.
It's an abstract idea that's escaped from an early Greek idea and didn't
work efficiently...they democratically killed Socrates for making them
think.
navanavonmilita
> "navanavonmilita" <bakul...@msn.com> wrote in message
My dear S Pierce,
I highly apreciate your prompt and very accurate comment. Thanks a
bunch.
As a matter of fact, You should be honored at the CWG XIX opening
ceremonies presided by none other than Queen's consort.
It is a fact that all Indian businesses, from a small wayside food
vendor to the almishty government of India one finds this ancient
system of having close family members in very important posts,
ministries.
Gujarati shopkeepers keep all their family members engaged in the
business. That helps.
Indian farmers, from dirt farmers, tenants on someone elses farm also
keep their family engaged in the farming, thus cutting costs,
training, supercision and additional government taxation on outside
labor.
Nepotism is a bad word. It should be banned by UN resolution. What do
you think?
By the way I have a news for you. Care to comment?
May Allah, Oops, US Drones be Praised
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/28/may-allah-oops-us-drones-be-praised/
Drone Attack in Pakistan
‘Mumbai-style’ terror attack on UK, France and Germany foiled
• Drone attacks intercept militants based in Pakistan
• Western intelligence agencies confirm plot fears
Richard Norton-Taylor and Owen Bowcott The Guardian, Wednesday 29
September 2010
Article history
One hundred and sixty-six people were killed in a series of gun and
grenade assaults in Mumbai in 2008. Photograph: EPA
A plot to launch “commando-style” attacks on Britain, France, and
Germany has been intercepted and foiled by drone attacks on militants
based in Pakistan, security and intelligence sources said last night.
The plan for suicidal onslaughts similar to the 2008 atrocity in
Mumbai – where 166 people were killed in a series of gun and grenade
assaults – was disrupted after a combined operation involving US, UK,
French and German intelligence agencies, officials said.
British security and intelligence sources, who have been concerned for
some time about the possibility of a Mumbai-style attack in Europe,
confirmed that they believed a plot was being hatched from Pakistan.
The increased rate of coordinated US drone raids along the border with
Afghanistan is believed to be a response to intelligence gathered
about the plot. Security sources insisted that attacks in Europe were
not imminent.
The Eiffel Tower in Paris, however, has been evacuated twice because
of a bomb scare in the past two weeks, a precaution that may have been
prompted by the intelligence.
No further evidence of such a plot was provided. Jonathan Evans, the
head of MI5, earlier this month spoke publicly about the continuing
threat of terror attacks in the UK. In his speech, he suggested that
around 50% of the plots identified had links to Pakistan – a decline
on previous estimates that suggested the figure was nearer 75%.
The terror group behind the 2008 Mumbai attacks was the outlawed,
Pakistani-based Lashkar-e-Taiba.
In the aftermath of the attack western intelligence agencies gained
access to computers seized from the Islamist group which listed other
potential targets outside the Indian subcontinent for commando-style
terror strikes.
Nine of the gunmen were killed – but a lone survivor gave Indian
investigators a full confession that the assault was planned in
Pakistan by Lashkar, a militant group that originally began an armed
campaign against the Indian army in Kashmir.
US military briefings suggested the latest missile attacks in Pakistan
had been coordinated by the CIA and were an unusual example of using
drones to pre-empt possible terror plots.
“There are some pretty notable threat streams,” one US military
official told the Wall Street Journal, adding that the significance of
the threats is still being assessed by counterterrorism experts.
The CIA is believed to have launched at least 20 drone strikes this
month in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Tribal Areas, the region
bordering Afghanistan That is the highest monthly total in the past
six years, according tofigures from the New America Foundation think
tank which monitors drone operations.
Four people were reported killed in the latest raid on Monday by US
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) that are operated remotely out of air
force bases in the US. A senior al-Qaida leader was among one of those
killed in drone raids, Pakistani and US officials said yesterday.
There has also been speculation that some of the attacks may be
targeted against the Islamist Haqqani network, a group that has not
previously operated outside the region.
The group controls the area in north-western Pakistan where
intelligence officials suspect Osama bin Laden may be hiding.
American officials declined to comment on specific plots in Europe or
elsewhere but acknowledged that targeted drone strikes in Pakistan
were meant to disrupt militant networks planning attacks.
“It shouldn’t surprise anyone that links between plots and those who
are orchestrating them lead to decisive American action,” a US
official told Reuters.
“The terrorists who are involved are, as everyone should expect, going
to be targets. That’s the whole point of all of this.”
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews, Terrorism
28/09/2010
« CWG, Oops, Congress Wealth Games
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/29/cwg-xix-communal-war-games-xxxxxvvvvv/
Hello CWG XXXXXVVVVV
India’s capital locked down ahead of Commonwealth Games
By Sudipto Ganguly and Amlan Chakraborty
NEW DELHI | Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:58am EDT
NEW DELHI (Reuters) – Security forces have taken over Commonwealth
Games venues and places like luxury hotels and metro stations in New
Delhi to ensure thousands of athletes from around the world are safe
against possible attacks by militants.
The lockdown, backed by the presence of 100,000 police across the
Indian capital comes as athletes were busy training for the October
3-14 multi-sports event.
India will use an array of commandos, snipers and police to protect up
to 8,000 athletes and officials staying at the Games Village
accommodation hub.
“The guns are actually making me feel more comfortable,” said Lauren
Mitchell, a gymnast competing for Australia.
MiG fighter jets and armed helicopters would be on standby for the
Games and Mi-35 attack helicopters would be airborne during opening
and closing ceremonies, the India Express daily said.
Mobile surface-to-air missiles and anti-aircraft guns have also been
deployed.
India had hoped to use the Games to display its growing economic and
political influence, rivaling neighbor China, which put on a
spectacular 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics.
But an attack on Taiwanese tourists by suspected militants, a dengue
fever epidemic, some filthy apartments in the athletes village, and
the collapse of a footbridge injuring 27 workers has forced India on
the defensive.
Venues are now finally coming into place with all 71 teams of the
Commonwealth due to be in place by Thursday.
Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit reviewed the facilities at the
Commonwealth Games Village on Wednesday and expressed satisfaction at
the progress made.
The estimated $6 billion spent on the Games and infrastructure linked
to it, including a new international airport, a metro system and
flyover highways as well as the cleaning of the city, are still
expected to give a boost.
SECURITY CONCERNS
Several top athletes have pulled out of the Games because of security
and health concerns, although some have also decided to skip the
competition because of injury.
India has long been a target for Pakistani-based militants, mainly
fighting for against Indian rule in Kashmir, a Himalayan region.
Homegrown militants have also carried out a series of bombings in
recent years.
In a positive sign on the diplomatic front, Indian Foreign Minister SM
Krishna invited his Pakistani counterpart to attend the Games.
“Foreign Minister (Shah Mehmood) Qureshi is most welcome to witness
some of the Games at least, and there again give us a chance… to
continue the dialogue,” S.M. Krishna told NDTV news channel in
comments aired on Wednesday.
The two sides are trying to improve ties that plummeted after the 2008
Mumbai attacks which killed 166 people and derailed a sluggish four-
year-old peace process with Pakistan.
Indian states are also on high alert on the eve of a ruling over
whether Hindus or Muslims own land around the Babri mosque in northern
India, a controversy that led to the deaths of some 2,000 people in
1992.
SEMENYA OUT
Caster Semenya, the women’s 800 metres world champion, has withdrawn
from the Games because of a back injury, dealing the event another
blow, South Africa’s Olympic body said.
The 19-year-old, cleared to compete in July after gender tests had put
her career on hold since she won the world title in August 2009, has
suffered serious lower back pain and has been uncomfortable in her
last few races.
Teams were practicing in the sprawling Games Village, which, despite
being criticized for the lack of cleanliness in some apartments, has
extensive training facilities. The competition venues have also been
praised.
“Great venues out there, the cycling stadium, the amazing wrestling
facility. I have never seen a wrestling facility like this. The
gymnastic venue was also terrific,” said Steve Moneghetti, Chef-de-
Mission for Australia.
High-profile athletes missing from the Games include world champion
sprinter Usain Bolt, who said the event had come too late in the year,
and Kenyan 800 metres world record holder David Rudisha, who blamed
fatigue for his withdrawal.
Other athletes have pulled out citing health concerns surrounding
dirty accommodation in the village while some have withdrawn because
of fears over security.
In a boost for the Games, Isle of Man cyclist Mark Cavendish, a Tour
de France stage winner and one of the world’s best sprinters, said he
would compete in the road race.
(Additional reporting by Jasion Humphries in DURBAN and Ken Ferris in
JOHANNESBURG; Writing by Paul de Bendern; editing by Alistair Scrutton
and John O’Brien)
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
29/09/2010
« May Allah, Oops, US Drones be Praised
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/29/poverty-thy-name-is-india/
Poverty, thy name is India
Poverty, thy name is India
India’s New Identification Efforts Aimed at the Poor
Kurt Achin | New Delhi 29 September 2010
Photo: AP
A child sits in front of a garbage dump on World Poverty Day in
Hyderabad, India, 17 October 2007 (FILE).
Related Articles
Study: More Poor People in India than in 26 African Countries
UN Summit Aims to Reduce Poverty, Hunger and Disease
India has formally launched an ambitious program to provide
identification numbers to its population. Authorities say they plan to
put ID cards in the hands of 100 million of India’s poorest citizens
within months, making it easier for them to access basic services.
Indian officials set a festive mood for the new plan, with Prime
Minister Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, leader of the dominant
Congress Party, personally handing out the first identification cards
to villagers in Maharashtra state. The government has set an ambitious
deadline, aiming to provide hundreds of millions of people with a
unique 12-digit number within just a few years.
Officials say the numbers and the data profiles behind them will offer
a fast track for India’s poorest citizens to benefit from a wide range
of services, from food distribution to banking.
The project is a top priority for the government, says Prime Minister
Singh, adding that India’s most economically and socially backward
citizens will derive the maximum benefit from the new plan.
The poorest of the poor in India frequently have difficulty obtaining
the right paperwork to certify their identity, and receive government
benefits. The new digitally encoded ID cards contain key biographical
data, backed up by fingerprint and retinal scans.
Congress Party leader Sonia Gandhi says the objective is not just
progress, but inclusiveness of everyone in the country. Gandhi said
officials are aware the challenges of the 21st century cannot be
overcome by old ideas and methods. The goal, she says, is to empower
the people.
India leveraged its human talents in information technology to advance
the identification program. The government appointed billionaire
founder of Infosys Corporation, Nandan Nilekani, to lead the
initiative. He, in turn, recruited Indian tech talent from companies
around the world to volunteer their time on the proje
Study: More Poor People in India than in 26 African Countries
Selah Hennessy | London 14 July 2010
Related Articles
India Considers Changing Its Food Distribution System for the Poor
India’s Economy Posts Highest Growth Since Global Downturn
Union Strikes Shut Down Parts of India
India’s New Identification Efforts Aimed at the Poor
According to a new study more people live in poverty in eight Indian
states than in 26 of sub-Saharan Africa’s poorest countries. The
creators of the new study said the level of poverty in South Asia
compared to Africa was a surprising discovery.
The Multidimensional Poverty Index takes into account issues such as
health and education and whether or not people have access to clean
water and electricity.
Sabina Alkire is director of the Oxford Poverty and Human Development
Initiative and she co-created the new index.
“One striking feature is that most of the poor people live in South
Asia – 51 percent of the 1.7 billion people that we have identified as
poor are resident in that continent,” says Alkire. “And it is not only
the number, but also the intensity.”
She says about one-quarter of the world’s poor live in Africa,
according to the MPI.
“When we compare the 26 poorest countries of Africa with states in
India that have the same intensity of deprivation, we find there are
more poor people with this intensity of deprivation in India than in
sub-Saharan Africa. And that is quite striking,” Alkire adds.
Alkire says the new Index paints a different and sometimes surprising
picture of poverty than studies that look at income alone.
For example, in Ethiopia 90 percent of people are ‘MPI poor’ compared
to the 39 percent who are classified as living in ‘extreme poverty’.
And 1.7-billion people living in the countries covered by the Index
live in poverty according to the MPI – that is higher than the 1.3-
billion people who live on $1.25 a day or less.
Alkire says a benefit of the new index is that it shows how poverty
affects people living in different regions of a country.
“So we looked at Kenya, where Nairobi has the poverty of the Dominican
Republic – not too much poverty – whereas the northeastern rural area
of Kenya is worse than our poorest country, Niger, with more than 90
percent of people poor,” Alkire said.
She says it also shows the range of poverty amongst different ethnic
groups – she says in some countries the variety is tremendous.
The Multidimensional Poverty Index was developed by the Oxford Poverty
and Human Development Initiative with support from the United Nations.
It will be featured in the upcoming UNDP Human Development Report,
replacing the Human Poverty Index.
Researchers analyzed data from 104 countries with a combined
population of 5.2 billion – just under 80 percent of the world’s total
population.
India Considers Changing Its Food Distribution System for the Poor
Direct Subsidy (or Coupon) System Proposed to Plug Leaks in the Public
Distribution System
Dave DeForest 25 August 2010
“To be effective, a coupon system needs a complete registry of all the
citizens of the country..” A. Ganesh-Kumar
A proposal being considered by India’s political leaders would change
the way the nation’s poor receive government aid. Some politicians and
government economic advisers are proposing scrapping the current
system and instead distributing food coupons directly to the poor.
Currently, poor Indians receive a special card with which they can
purchase food at “fair price shops” set up to distribute food to the
needy. The food is procured and sold through the government’s Public
Distribution System (PDS).
A coupon system would eventually enable poor people to purchase food
in any store in the country, not just those in the government system.
“By introducing the direct subsidy system, the government can spend
half the money it is spending now and get double the benefit,”
economic advisor Kaushik Basu told the Economic Times.
The current system is expensive to operate in part because resources
moving through the system have a tendency to “leak out” through theft
and inefficiency.
“The trucks sometimes don’t reach (or only half the load reaches) the
shop, sometimes there is a lot of siphoning of the grain that takes
place even at the fair price shops,” said A. Ganesh-Kumar, a New Delhi-
based research fellow with the International Food Policy Research
Institute.
Besides leakage, he says one the most important of India’s challenges
is to determine exactly how many poor people there really are.
“The coupon system is an alternative in the sense that the government
does not get itself involved in the actual business of procuring,
storing and distributing grains,” Ganesh-Kumar said. “It can bring
down costs for the government, but the same issue of the
identification of the poor remains,” he added.
“To be effective, a coupon system needs a complete registry of all the
citizens of the country,” he pointed out. “Right now the government
has set up a unique identity authority which is supposed to do exactly
that, but this process will take maybe two or three years…” he said.
Ganesh-Kumar says poverty estimates widely range between 28 to 80
percent of the population, but the official government figure is 37
percent. He says some people currently receiving benefits are not
really poor and some who do need help are not getting it.
With the need so great, feeding the poor has been a perennial issue in
political campaigns in India and leaders routinely promise to
eliminate hunger.But many poor people are simply “falling through the
cracks” in the current system.
Despite a generous allocation of government resources, many poor
people continue to suffer from malnutrition.
The British newspaper the Guardian reported this year that there are
more poor people in India than in all of the 26 nations of sub-Sahara
Africa combined. The Times of India reports that half of all child
deaths in India are due to malnutrition.
A. Ganesh-Kumar said he regretted that the cost-effectiveness of the
current system has not been given enough attention in current
discussions about possible changes. “The need of being cost effective
is…not even being debated in this country,” he said.”
Ganesh-Kumar would not hazard a guess as to whether the new coupon
system will be approved. He pointed out that there are more than
100,000 people who work for the current system and they will
undoubtedly oppose getting rid of it.
India Takes Lead in Speaking for Poor Nations at WTO Talks
Hong Kong 16 December 2005
India has taken the lead in speaking for developing nations at World
Trade Organization talks in Hong Kong, which are supposed to focus
largely on development issues.
India came to the negotiations demanding that rich countries give up
subsidies and other supports to their farmers, an agenda that many
other developing nations embrace. But by some accounts the issue is a
possible deal breaker in World Trade Organization talks.
The United States and the European Union have both offered to reduce
farm subsidies and tariffs, but not as much as many developing nations
want.
They have called on India, with its comparatively large economy, to
open its markets to their industrial products and services. The richer
nations also say India should do more to help fellow developing
nations by trading with them.
On Friday, Indian Commerce Minister Kamal Nath emphasized his point
that rich countries’ farm subsidies are preventing this from
happening.
“India buys $500 million, roughly, of cotton – imports $500 million of
cotton,” said Kamal Nath. “Unfortunately, we can’t do it from Africa,
because of the subsidies given by the United States and the export
credits given by the United States. So, developed countries need to
first, also, see and correct the artificiality of prices which is
created by virtue of their subsidies which inhibit south-south
trade.”
India has called for special treatment for developing countries,
saying they need – among other things – more time to implement trade
agreements than developed nations.
U.S. officials have countered by doubling their trade development
assistance package to poor countries to $2.7 billion a year and other
concessions.
Several developed countries, including the United States, have
indicated they are willing to grant duty-free and quota-free market
access to the world’s very poorest nations. However, there are some
exclusions to that, such as Bangladeshi textiles.
Bangladesh, a major producer of textiles, says it will insist on no
less than a package that includes open access for its manufactured
products to all markets.
…and I am Sid Harth
Economy, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
29/09/2010
« Of UID and Hindu Hoodlums
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/29/tribal-exploitation-101/
Tribals Exploited
Tribals Exploited
Tribals Exploited
Tribals Exploited
Tribals Exploited
Tribals Exploited
‘Rahul Gandhi’s heart is in the right place’
August 31, 2010 18:38 IST
Tags: Rahul Gandhi, Orissa, Sam Pitroda, Dr Manmohan Singh, Titlagarh
Sam Pitroda [ Images ] says Rahul Gandhi’s [ Images ] support for the
tribals is correct and while he backs development he says it must be
done by preserving the rights and culture of the tribals.
Congress General Secretary Rahul Gandhi’s visit to Lanjigarh in the
neighbourhood of the Kalahnadi district of Orissa to address tribals
living the Niyamgiri hills has provoked a debate. While speaking from
the podium surrounded by abject poverty, he celebrated the withdrawal
of permission to Vedanta to mine bauxite. He also told tribals that he
is their soldier in New Delhi [ Images ].
“Two years ago, I had told a gathering here that for the tribals of
Kalahandi, there is a soldier in Delhi named Rahul Gandhi. My work is
not finished, it has just begun. Whenever you need me, wherever, I am
ready to stand with you,” he said.
Rahul’s visit which indirectly targeted development and supported
preserving the environment has many dimensions that have evoked
different feelings in different people. The most important question
that emerges from the current debate is about developmental approval
of tribal areas, what should be its terms and conditions and at same
time how do governments preserve tribal culture and their fundamental
rights over their land.
Here Sam Pitroda, one of Rahul Gandhi’s close aides and advisor to
prime minister Dr Manmohan Singh [ Images ] on public information and
infrastructure and innovations, shares memories of his birthplace in
the nearby village from where Rahul addressed tribals on August 26. He
thinks the right approach is to balance the attempt of preserving the
environment but at same time development must get the green signal.
“In 1942, I was born and raised in a small village Titlagarh in
Bolangir district which is very close to Kalahandi. Even after
independence, there was no radio, no television, no water, no
electricity, no roads, no connectivity, no schools, no hospitals, no
dispensaries for many, many years. My mother delivered eight children
without trained medical staff.
Luckily, we turned out be healthy and we managed to get a good
education.
What I remember about my birthplace is that it was a rich tribal belt.
Rich in terms of dense forests, rich in terms of tradition and
culture. However, the tribals were poor then and even now they are
poor. Our area was one of the poorest regions of India [ Images ]. On
the mountains surrounding our homes we knew lots of tribes who had
lived there since centuries.
Some of them would leave hills to work in homes of the non-tribals. I
distinctly remember that two great tribal women Badhwari and Tara
raised all of us. They were like our mother and inseparable part of
our life. I have a strong bond with tribals of Kalahandi because I was
born their and raised by their women.
My father moved from Gujarat in search of work and settled in the
village of Titlagarh near Kalahandi. There was a famine in Gujarat in
the 1930s. He had arrived in Orissa because his relative was working
with a local contractor who had migrated from Kutch. In childhood,
obviously, I was not knowledgeable about tribals and their issues. I
look at them differently, now. Then, tribal people were just part of
our lives and we lived together. I left Orissa when I was ten years
old to study in Baroda, Gujarat.
My parents were under great influence of Mahatma Gandhiji and Sardar
Patel. I still remember, then, in those deep forests of Orissa when
news came that Gandhi has died, our entire family bathed. As if
somebody from the family has died. It’s a Gujarati ritual that on
hearing the news of someone’s death, you take a bath. I left Titalgarh
only because there was no school. My father’s great dream, even while
living in village of Orissa, was that his all children must study.
In those days, we knew that tribal land have got of minerals and
stones of all kinds. In the back of our home in Titlagarh, we used to
dig six inches and would find mica. We would find layers and layers of
it. We used to call it abarakh in Gujarati. We used to play with it.
Then, I had different idea of tribals. But, now I know tribals all
over world are struggling and how. Their situation has not changed so
much even in the US. There they are called ‘Red Indians’. In the US
also, the government is criticised for their plight. The issue of
tribal land rights exist all over world. It’s an international debate
about how to go about their development.
Some of the countries have tried to modernise them as against
preserving their distinct roots and culture. I think tribals are very
important part of human civilisation. It’s up to the country to decide
what it wants. There is an old debate amongst nations about it. The
country can opt to preserve the tribal heritage and abandon the idea
of massive development or it can go for whole hog development and
bring tribals into the mainstream.
I, personally, think that there should be a balance. We should develop
some areas while we should also preserve whatever is worth
preserving.
I am in no position to speak on validity of the Vedanta project in
tribal areas because I have not studied it but due to 9 percent growth
we want to monetise these assets in tribal areas. Earlier, these
minerals and stones were just lying there but we did not have the
wherewithal to monetise them. This is a new phenomenon (where growth
is sustained by export of minerals and use of it in producing goods.)
When India was growing at 3 to 4 percent the question of exploiting
tribal land did not arise.
I think Rahul Gandhi’s heart is in the right place. I think his visit
to the tribal areas and giving them support was the right thing to do.
I am not qualified to speak on the issue of co-relation of the
environment and development. I would just say that even now there is
poverty and deprivation in our tribal areas.
If the tribals are getting more while their area is being developed we
should support those efforts.”
Sheela Bhatt
Tembhali: The road ends beyond 100 metres
Last updated on: September 28, 2010 22:16 IST
Prasanna D Zore and Uttam Ghosh travel to Tembhali, in Nandurbar
district of Maharashtra, ahead of PM Dr Singh’s visit to the hamlet to
distribute the much-talked-about Unique ID to the villagers. But the
gross reality is at a stark contrast from this make-believe ‘model
Indian village.’
Good times seem to have descended on Tembhali, a small hamlet in
Maharashtra’s Nandurbar district. But only just.
Ever since news broke that Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh will visit
Tembhali, to give the Unique Identification Numbers to a batch of 15
adivasis, the village seems to be having a ball.
In 25 days flat since then, the tehsil’s public and works department
have played wonders with the dusty, mud-strewn pathways that the 1,500-
odd villagers would take to reach their houses.
Mud has been replaced by concrete in any direction you move, so that
India’s PM and Congress President Sonia Gandhi get to see a model
village.
The truth, however, ends just 100 metres away from the spot designated
for the dignitaries — that include the likes of Maharshtra Chief
Minister Ashok Chavan, Deputy CM Chhagan Bhujbal, Governor R
Sankaranarayanan and UIDAI chief Nandan Nilekani.
The concrete road abruptly gives way to a mud stretch as far as the
eye can see.
Does that ring a bell? Is that the end of the road for Tembhali?
Once you take a left turn out of Shahada and move straight to
Tembhali, the road branches out into two routes. A banner humbly
suggests: This way for the aam janata; this way for VIPs.
We wonder if unique identification numbers will ever breach the divide
between the aam and the VIPs? Our guess is as good as yours.
Image: An Aadhar poster en route to Tembhali
Photographs: Uttam Ghosh/Rediff.com
En route to Tembhali, you come across a number of road pavers working
busily with a couple of contractors goading them to move quickly.
The road has to be paved and tarred by 4 pm on September 28, so that
the VIP cavalcade — including that of the mukhya mantriji — will be
taking this route on Thursday morning for their tryst with Tembhali.
Wonder if this will be their first visit to Tembhali ever? I can
already here murmurs cursing Aadhaar’s launch from Tembhali.
Plus this is like killing two birds with a stone: Pave the road plus
give work to labourers as part of the National Rural Employment
Guarantee Act.
“How we wish the PM comes to every such village in India every six
months,” whispers a contractor into our ears.
Image: Govt’s dual-strategy: Pave the road plus give work to labourers
as part of the NREGA
Photographs: Uttam Ghosh/Rediff.com
With the PM’s visit it’s not only the PWD that is in the overdrive.
The local electricity distribution service, that is the part of Maha
Vitaran, too are bending their backs to supply live electricity to
villagers, lest the PM and Soniaji decided to take a walk behind a
certain Lakshman rekha that the Congress workers would secretly wish
the dignitaries should not cross.
Now there is electricity as well as new electric meters installed in
many of the nearby houses. Incidentally, a few of the electric meters
are not wired to the nearby pole that supplies electricity.
Double the fun, isn’t it? Get light without paying for some villagers
Finally, a few lucky Tembhali villagers are now able to experience the
light as it were.
Interestingly, Tembhali faces only four-hour load shedding between 10
am to 2 pm. Now, these adivasis too can study when the sun sets and
cook their food without worrying about the darkness.
Image: Now there is electricity as well as new electric meters
installed in many of the nearby houses
Photographs: Uttam Ghosh/Rediff.com
One wonders if the entire hype and hoopla will die down as soon as the
PM and his colleagues fly over the Satpuras back to the safe environs
of New Delhi and Mumbai.
For, like the concrete road that ends just 100 metres away from the
place from where Dr Singh is likely to address the people, the local
goons and contractors will go back their usual exploitative way, says
activist Balu Naik who has worked for the adivasis in Nandurbar for
the last 17 years.
What kind of a future can the PM and Sonia Gandhi promise to these
unfortunate people? We will see that six months down the line.
Image: Village kids in front of their huts
Photographs: Uttam Ghosh/Rediff.com
We doubt. The adivasis are quite placid and mean no harm to anybody.
They don’t get angry at their plight. They blame it on their fate.
With such attitude one wonders if the Che Guevrera band on this
gentleman’s hand is the sign of times to come.
A time to take note, New Delhi.
Image: ‘Sign of times to come’
Photographs: Uttam Ghosh/Rediff.com
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Economy, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian
society, News, Views and Reviews, Terrorism
29/09/2010
« Mumbai Hoodlums Unite
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/30/build-a-hindu-hall-of-shame/
Babri Masjid Attacked
Babri Masjid Attacked
Babri? They don’t know, don’t care
Neha Pushkarna, TNN, Sep 30, 2010, 04.54am IST
Comments (8)
Tags:shri ram college of commerce|commonwealth games|babri masjid|
ayodhya verdict NEW DELHI: Forget and move on. This sums up what
youngsters in the city who are in their teens or barely out of it feel
about the Ayodhya issue, cause for a lot of anxiety. A final verdict
is due on Thursday. Handling the pressure of studies, expectation of
parents and relationships on one hand and looking forward to a hidden
but promising future on the other, who has got time to dig into the
past and relive the horrors of communal violence that started with the
demolition of Babri Masjid on December 6, 1992?
ToI spoke to several youngsters on Wednesday, who were either born in
the same year when Babri Masjid was brought down or around that time.
The truth is most of them do not even know what the dispute is all
about. Or they simply don’t care.
”I wasn’t really aware of the entire issue till I became aware of the
hype around the verdict. I think there was a masjid which the BJP
demolished. But that was a long way back. I am more worried about our
safety after the verdict is out,” said 18-year-old Twinkle Uppal, who
is loving her life as a fresher in Shri Ram College of Commerce. ”I
feel equally spiritual whenever I go to a temple, gurdwara or mosque.
Where’s the problem?”
Azra Khatun, who was just two when the masjid came down in Ayodhya,
said: ”I came to know about the issue while studying about caste and
religion in one of the chapters in school. I don’t see a point in
fighting over a piece of land. I respect all religions. Be it a mosque
or a temple, I am fine with both.” She added, ”With Commonwealth Games
happening in the city, a lot of foreigners have come here. Let’s show
them our bonding.”
Unlike Azra, many youngsters admitted that they first read about the
Ayodhya issue only a few weeks ago when the media started reporting on
the forthcoming verdict. ”I live in a hostel where there is no TV and
I don’t get time to scan newspapers either. Is it about the demand to
demolish a mosque. We are still confused if it will be safe to go to
college on Thursday,” wondered 19-year-old Garima from Delhi
University.
Not sure if the demolition happened in this decade or the last, 19-
year-old Ipshita Guha, a student of economics, added, ”My family is
quite paranoid back home in Kolkata. They don’t want me to even step
out. But I don’t care. Academics is already too much to handle.”
Though they struggle to put together facts to get the Ayodhya story
right, they do have interesting solutions that would benefit humanity,
not religion. ”Build a school or hospital there,” suggested 19-year-
old Ravikant, a student of mathematics. ”Build a playground. Children
there will love it. There are thousands of mosques and temples
already,” offered a second-year student of BCom (honours), Sidhya
Senani.
Twenty-year-old Mohit Arora, who has come to study in the city from
Patna, summed up by saying, ”Only good things should be kept as a
memory. The government should build a monument there that will become
a legacy for the country.”
Babri? They don’t know, don’t care
Comments (8)
AK (SG)
30 Sep, 2010 11:05 AM
Think practical. No Hindu or Muslim would dare work in that School,
Library or Hospital that is constructed as such sensitive site. They
will always be afraid of their lives. Better to have it as Prohibited
Land or Police Training Camp. Police Training Camp is better as UP
Police is getting obese in absence of proper running around.
Agree (5)
Disagree (0)
Recommend (0)
vis (mau)
30 Sep, 2010 09:53 AM
build statue of amitabh and shahrukh over there, all confusion will
solved
Agree (3)
Disagree (3)
Recommend (0)
OffensiveKrishna (Hyderabad)
30 Sep, 2010 09:08 AM
Construction of a School; an Hospital, a multi religious center, a
library, a play ground …. many people are giving suggestions without
knowing the history of the issue; one gentleman suggested to construct
urinals at the site; setting aside the actual issue with such
simplistic solutions is not possible; Mother Theresa has tried to
secure the site to build a service center; it is known to all Mother
Theresa Service centers are really centers for religious conversion.
The idea to convert the Ram Janmabhumi to any other form will lead to
other repercussions. Manmohan’s India Story plank and Rahul’s Ayodhya
is nothing stance will not solve the problem; rather they will
intensify the problem.
Agree (7)
Disagree (4)
Recommend (1)
gcmohan (chennai )
30 Sep, 2010 07:33 AMall this will change if and when jehadists enter
Agree (3)
Disagree (5)
Recommend (0)
R.K.Mutalik (SANKESHWAR -Karnataka)
30 Sep, 2010 07:22 AM
It is better to build a medical research center for AIDS ,cancer, and
free treatment for in comely poor
Agree (8)
Disagree (3)
Recommend (2)
ZOOZ (Jaipur)
30 Sep, 2010 07:08 AM
Yup..construct smthing like school hospital which will be beneficial
for all instead of corrupt politicians
Agree (6)
Disagree (3)
Recommend (2)
ajad (india)
30 Sep, 2010 07:00 AM
this type of generation will re take us to the days of foreign rule.
at least when you are a student you should know our history.this
generation is only one motto to mug up books and settle in America.
Agree (6)
Disagree (9)
Recommend (3)
Nandu (Nandu)
30 Sep, 2010 06:04 AM
Construct a Govt School in that place;
Agree (8)
Disagree (2)
Recommend (2)
Sid Harth (USA)
30 Sep, 2010 01:30 PM
Build a “Hindu Hall of Shame.”
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
30/09/2010
« al Quaeda Strikes Back
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/30/hindu-solomons-verdict/
I am amused at the Ayodhya verdict.
Hindu Hoodlums may not be so pleased as they were asking the whole
‘kitten kaboodle,’ for themselves. So what did a panel of three
distinguished justices did?
They asked that the land be trifurcated. 1/3rd to Ramlalla. 1/3rd to
Sunni Muslim Waqf Board and the last 1/3rd to ‘Nirmohi Akhara.’
Ain’t that a cute justice. The whole process of justice in the land of
milk, oops, holy Hindu cow milk, and corruption honey. Not to forget
mafia and black money, contrieved, unstable and dangerous unholy
political alliances, like UPA, NDA.
Even in the left side of the center parties such as SP, BSP, JD, JD(U)
we find a certain degree of injustice. That may be the understatement
of the millennium.
I like peace and I am doomed, oops, damned if I say that this strange
form of dividing the disputed land of Muslim Waqf Board is not the
right way to settle the dispute.
SO Let them cut that disputed baby in three.
King Solomon would be turning in his grave by this Banana Republic’s
aka India, form of injustice.
Imagine:
Muslims like to offer their prayers five times a day. Hindu hoodlums
of Ramlalla would make it a point to play loudly all those Bollywood
songs, albeit, Hindu worship songs at the exact time from their 1/3rd
part.
Nirmohi Akhara guys would go bonkers as they cannot read their Granth
Sahib in peace while Hindu Hoodlum make such a ruckus.
Muslims, fedup with this daily nonsense may join Sikhs of Nirmohi
Akhara, bring tons of explosive devices and throw tham at Ramlalla
Hindu Hoodlums. The place would go up in smoke in 1/3rd of a minute.
Mark my words, just 20 seconds’ action is what determines the future
of a Hindu Hoodlumland called India.
The End
Law Office of
Baruch C. Cohen, Esq.
A Professional Law Corporation
5455 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 1410 Telephone: (213) 937-4501
Los Angeles, California 90036 Facsimile: (213) 937-4503
July 10, 1998
The Brilliant Wisdom of King Solomon
By: Baruch C. Cohen1
The Book of Kings [Melachim 1 3:12] states that Israel’s great King
Solomon was twelve years old when God promised him that he would be
granted great wisdom. He turned out to be the wisest man ever to live.
As an illustration of the fulfillment of this blessing of wisdom, the
Book of Kings reports the following account of a case that was brought
before King Solomon’s court in Jerusalem.
Two women came to King Solomon and stood before him. One woman (#1)
said: “My Lord, this woman and I dwell in the same house, and I gave
birth to a child while with her in the house. On the third day after I
gave birth, she also gave birth. We live together; there is no
outsider with us in the house; only the two of us were there. The son
of this woman died during the night because she lay upon him. She
arose during the night and took my son from my side while I was
asleep, and lay him in her bosom, and her dead son she laid in my
bosom. when I got up in the morning to nurse my son, behold, he was
dead! But when I observed him (later on) in the morning, I realized
that he was not my son to whom I had given birth!”
The other woman (#2) replied: “It is not so! My son is the live one
and your son is the dead one!”
The first woman (#1) responded: “It is not so! Your son is the dead
one and my son is the living one!”
They argued before King Solomon.
King Solomon said: “this woman (#2) claims ‘My son is the live one and
your son is the dead one, ‘and this woman (#1) claims ‘Your son is the
dead one and my son is the living one!”‘
King Solomon said, “Bring me a sword!” So they brought a sword before
the King. The King said, “Cut the living child in two, and give half
to one and half to the other”
The woman (#2) turned to the King, because her compassion was aroused
for her son, and said: “Please my Lord, give her the living child and
do not kill it!”
But the other woman (#1) said: “Neither mine nor yours shall he be.
Cut!”
The King spoke up and said: “Give her (#2) the living child, and do
not kill it, for she is his mother!” All of Israel heard the judgment
that the King had judged. They had great awe for the King, for they
saw that the wisdom of God was within him to do justice. [I Melachim
3:16 - 27]. The woman was rightfully awarded custody of her son.
It should be noted, that King Solomon’s was the first major recorded
and published decision in the history of legal jurisprudence, and I
believe that with the help of the commentaries, one can begin to
appreciate the magnificent depth of his wisdom.
OBSERVATIONS
Some say that King Solomon truly knew who was the real mother as soon
as he saw the two women. This was the nature of the special divine
wisdom that God gave him. As King Solomon was able to understand the
speech of the animals and the birds, so he could see the truth in
someone’s face. His knowledge was of Divine origin. It was
infallible.
According to the Abarbanel and Metzudas David, King Solomon studied
the countenance of each woman as they presented their claims and
counter-claims, and by means of his penetrating and heavenly wisdom,
understood which of the two women was telling the truth.
Still, to prove this to the people, he had to demonstrate it in a way
that everyone would acknowledge. Perhaps that is why he pretended not
to know who said what, and repeated their arguments in reverse order,
by repeating Woman #2′s argument first, and Woman #1′s argument
second.
He even pretended to apply the well-known law of dividing disputed
property. If two people come to court holding on to the ends of a
piece of clothing, and each claims it to be his, the court divides it
and gives each one half. King Solomon seemed to pretend to be ignorant
of the many complicated details of this law, and to think that it
applied to babies as well, which would have been ridiculously
simpleminded. No judge would ever make such a foolish mistake. Yet, he
succeeded in convincing the two women that he was serious.
Nonetheless, he was careful not to let the trick go too far. He
specifically commanded his servants to bring the sword to him, not to
give it to one of the guards. They too, were no doubt fooled and he
did not want them to divide the baby before he had a chance to stop
them. In fact, the King’s ministers said “Woe to you Oh Land, whose
king is but a boy!” They thought “what has God done to us to give us
such a king? How long will we have to suffer with such foolish
judgments?” But afterwards, when they saw the women’s reactions they
knew that he had recently received Divine inspiration and rejoiced
saying “Happy are you, oh Land, whose king is a free man!” – i.e., one
who studies Torah (Koheles – Ecclesiastes 10:16-17).
King Solomon’s trick succeeded. The imposter revealed herself by her
heartless cruelty. After all, no mother would have let her own child
be killed just to spite another woman.
But how could King Solomon have been sure the other woman would not
also have mercy on the child? Wouldn’t most people break down in such
a situation and relinquish their claims? What sort of person would
want to be responsible for the death of an innocent child, even if it
were not her own?
Perhaps this was an aspect of the depth of King Solomon’s insight – he
knew that no normal mother lies on her own child and crushes him in
her sleep. Babies always sleep with their mothers and fathers, yet
this never happens, for perhaps God implants within a human being an
innate sensitivity that prevents her from doing such a thing. A woman
who lies on her child must be lacking basic human feeling, and such a
person would certainly have no mercy on the child of another.
According to the Abarbanel, perhaps such a woman developed a blood
lust and possessed a cruel desire to see another life snuffed out.
And what of the compassionate one? Was it not possible that she was
acting cunningly to impress the King with a false sense of motherly
commiseration?
WHO HAD THE BETTER ARGUMENT?
Notwithstanding the outcome, many believe that Woman #1 still made a
convincing and persuasive argument. She made it clear that there were
no witnesses because they lived alone. Perhaps she suspected that
Solomon would be able to tell how old the baby was and identify the
mother. According to the Radak and the Metsudas David, her argument
was bolstered by the claim that no one else knew the identities of the
babies, nor had one been sick, that the neighbors might remember whose
baby it was. When she first got up, it was still dark. She could not
recognize the baby, so she did not suspect that it was not hers. All
she knew was that it was dead. But when it got light, she saw it and
realized what had happened. She asserted that her baby boy was born
three days earlier, and therefore there was some reliable distinction
available.
Woman #2 had only a brief presentation and did not claim to have any
proof. She simply said that the child was hers. All she did was state
her case.
Based on the first round of oral arguments, it would appear that Woman
#1 had the better claim, and that she was the real mother.
It is noteworthy, that the women did not bring the corpse of the dead
child for further identification. Perhaps the child was buried
already, or its features were already changed making recognition
difficult.
SUBTLE TRUTHS BEGIN TO UNRAVEL
Yet, as the women’s dispute continued, their respective positions
seemed to change ever so slightly. There was something disturbing and
disingenuous about the way in which Woman #1 continued arguing her
case, in that she subsequently seemed less concerned with having a
live child and focused more on the other having the dead one. The fact
that she mentioned the dead child first, in itself, was an indication
of this (“It is not so! Your son is the dead one and my son is the
living one!”).
Woman #2, by contrast, always spoke of her own son first (“No. my son
is the living one and your son is the dead one”). It seemed as if her
heart was with her son. She spoke out of love and was apparently
heartbroken at the thought of potentially losing her child.
According to the Devorim Rabah, King Solomon then repeated the
arguments of both women, verbatim, without adding anything, making
sure that he properly understood the arguments of both sides,
listening carefully, and if there was anything that he misunderstood,
the women had an opportunity to correct him.
ODD DEVELOPMENTS IN THE STORY
King Solomon’s wisdom surely gave him the insight to foresee that the
real mother (#2) would recoil in terror when she heard of his
intention to kill the infant, nevertheless, could his wisdom have
possibly predicted the liar (#1)’s response – to comply with this
grotesque compromise?
Second, the woman who was lying (#1) was initially interested in
taking the living child for herself, otherwise she never would have
asserted such a bold and aggressive claim.
As soon as the real mother offered to let the liar keep the child in
order to spare its life, the liar should have accepted the real mother
offer’s and kept the child. She could have played up her victory by
saying: “Aha! She admits that the baby was truly mine all along! She
is a kidnapper but not a murderer. The baby is mine.” Instead, she did
something totally unpredictable. She refused saying “Neither mine nor
yours shall he be. Cut.”
I have always wondered what made her suddenly lose interest in having
the child for herself?
A brilliant and original answer to these questions is offered by Rabbi
Mordechai Kornfeld of
Har Nof Jerusalem, of the Shmayisroel Torah Network
(www.shemayisroel.co.il), who cited two 13th century commentators: Rav
Yehoshua Ibn Shu’ib in his Drasha for Parshas Mishpatim, and Rav
Menachem HaMeiri in his commentary to Yevamos 17a; and another 14th
century commentator, the author of Shemen Rokeach and
Sha’arHachazokas. They believe that in order to understand the real
story behind King Solomon’s decision, an understanding of the laws of
Yibbum is necessary.
THE LAWS OF YIBBUM.
The Torah describes the practice of Yibbum in the Parsha of Ki Setzei
(Devarim 25:5,7,9):
“If there are brothers, and one of them dies without children, the
wife of the deceased man may not marry out to another man. Her brother-
in-law (her deceased husband’s brother) must marry her and thus
perform Yibbum on her … If the man does not want to marry her, she
shall approach the elders and declare ‘My brother-in-law refuses to
establish his brother’s name in Israel; he does not consent to perform
Yibbum on me’
… Then she shall approach him in the presence of the elders and remove
his shoe from his foot, and spit in front of him and proclaim “Such
should be done to a man who would not build up his brother’s house!”
Yibbum is a Halachic rite which must be performed when a man who has a
living brother dies childless. If this uncommon situation occurs, the
widow must not remarry unless one of two actions are taken – either
she must marry the brother of the deceased or she must be released
from the obligation of marrying her brother-in-law by having him
perform the Chalitzah (“removing” of the shoe) ceremony.
It is obviously uncomfortable for a woman to be trapped in this
situation, wherein she would be subject to the will of another man.
Her brother-in-law may not be locatable, compliant or appealing.
There are several fundamental laws concerning the childless nature of
the deceased and the age of the bother that control whether Yibbum
applies:
LAWS CONCERNING THE CHILDLESS NATURE OF THE DECEASED
1. Rule #1: The man must die childless. According to the Talmud
Yevamos 87b, Dying childless includes instances where a man once had
children, but these children were already dead at the time of his own
death.
2. Rule #2: Grandchildren: According to the Talmud Yevamos 70a, if the
deceased man has no living children but he does have living
grandchildren, he is not considered to be childless, and therefore,
there is no Yibbum obligation.
3. Rule #3: Offspring: According to Talmud Yevamos 11 lb and Shabbos
136a, if the deceased left behind any offspring at all, there is no
Yibbum – even if the offspring is only one day old. Even if the
offspring is still a viable fetus at the time of the husband’s death,
its mother is exempted from being bound to the living brother. If the
fetus is a stillborn or is aborted, or dies, or is killed before it
lived for thirty days, it is not considered to have ever been a viable
offspring, and Yibbum would be required.
LAWS CONCERNING THE AGE OF THE DECEASED’S BROTHER
4. Rule #4: Brother-In-Law: According to the Talmud Yevamos 17b, the
widow is obligated to marry her deceased husband’s brother. If the
deceased husband does not leave a living brother, his wife is free to
marry whoever she pleases.
5. Rule #5: Minor: According to the Talmud Yevamos 1 05b, if the
brother of the deceased is a minor, the widow is still bound to him,
and does not have the option of freeing herself through Chalitzah
since a minor lacks capacity to perform the ceremony. Instead she must
wait until the brother reaches the age of majority (Bar Mitzvah 13) in
order for him to render Chalitzah at that time. Only then may she
remarry. According to the Talmud Niddah 45a if she wants to marry him,
she must wait until he reaches 9 years of age.
APPLICATION & CONCLUSION
We now return to King Solomon’s judgment.
The Midrash (Koheles Rabah 10:16) tells us that the reason both of
these women were so desperate to have the living child declared theirs
was that they were both potential Yevamos (widows subject to Yibbum).
Neither of the two had any other offspring. Whoever would be judged to
be the childless woman would not only lose the infant, but would also
be trapped in the unpleasant status of Yevamah, being dependent upon
her brother-in-law’s good will.
The Midrash (Yalknt Shimoni 2:175) asserts that the husbands of the
two women were father and son, making the two women, mother-in-law and
daughter-in-law to each other.
According to the Meiri in his commentary to Yevamos 17a, the two
Midrashim may be complementing each other – thanks to our 5-rule
Yibbum analysis.
The two women – mother-in-law and daughter-in-law – had just lost
their husbands, and needed a live child to exempt them from the status
of a Yevamah. Both women gave birth to babies. However, these two
babies were still less than 30 days old at the time that one of them
died. The mother of the dead child would therefore be subject to the
laws of Yibbum (Rule #3). This was the lying mother’s motivation for
taking the other woman’s child.
If it were the mother-in-law’s child who had died, she would have no
incentive to kidnap her daughter-in-law’s child. Even though her son
(the deceased husband of her daughter-in-law) had passed away before
her own husband had, and therefore he would not exempt her from Yibbum
(Rule #1), nevertheless, she would be exempt from Yibbum for another
reason. The living child was her son’s child, and a grandchild exempts
one from Yibbum (Rule #2).
Only the daughter-in-law had the motive to lie and try to claim that
the child was hers. If it was her baby who had died within 30 days of
its birth, leaving her childless, she would have been bound to her
husband’s brother as a Yevamah (Rule #4) – and that brother would have
been -none other than the living baby (who was in fact her mother-in-
law’s child – i.e., her deceased husband’s bother)! Since her brother-
in-law was a newborn, the daughter-in-law would have had to wait 13
years before this baby would be able to perform Chalitzah on her and
free her to remarry (Rule #5).
King Solomon realized all of this and suspected that since the only
one with a strong motive to lie was the daughter-in-law, the child
must really belong to the mother-in-law.
Perhaps this also explains why King Solomon ordered that the child be
cut in half.
If the remaining child were to be killed, this too would free the
daughter-in-law from her Yevamah status – since the living baby was
her only brother-in-law (Rule #3). From the daughter-in-law’s
perspective, in fact, killing the child would result in a better
solution for her. By just kidnaping the child she might have convinced
the earthly court that she was not a Yevamah. However, she herself
would know that the child was not really hers and that she really was
not permitted to remarry, until Chalitzah was performed. By having the
baby killed, though, she would truthfully be released from the bonds
of Yibbum.
This is the reason the daughter-in-law suddenly lost interest in
keeping the child when she saw that King Solomon was ready to cut the
child in half. This would serve her interests even more if she took
the child for herself. Therefore she insisted: “Cut!”
Young King Solomon guessed that this would be the woman’s reaction. By
tricking her into making a seemingly ludicrous statement, he revealed
her true motives and that she was lying.
This is why, “All of Israel heard the judgment that the King had
judged. They had great awe for the King, for they saw that the wisdom
of God was within him to do justice.”
Respectfully,
BARUCH C. COHEN
FOOTNOTES
Baruch C. Cohen’s practice includes all aspects of creditors’ and
debtors’ rights, corporate reorganizations, personal bankruptcies, and
all types of bankruptcy litigation in state, federal and bankruptcy
courts.
Copyright © 1997-2008 by Ira Kasdan. All rights reserved.
…and I am Sid Harth
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)
•Evidence for Ram Mandir in Ayodhya: BB Lal
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News, Views and Reviews
30/09/2010
« Ayodhya Verdict
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/30/when-the-saints-go-marching-in/
Policemen Marching
30 Sep, 2010, 02.21PM IST,AGENCIES
Committee of saints, AIMPLB to hold own meets after Ayodhya verdict
Comments
ALLAHABAD: A committee of saints will meet here to study the verdict
on the Ayodhya title suits as soon as the pronounces its judgement.
“A meeting of Sant Uchchadhikar Samiti will be held here at the ashram
of Jagadguru Vasudevananda Saraswati, the pontiff of Jyotirmath
shrine,” district unit president Pawan Srivastava told PTI.
Srivastava said the meeting is likely to take place as soon as the
verdict is out, but did not specify its exact timing.
He said the meeting will be attended by Vishwa Hindu Parishad supremo
Ashok Singhal, after which the VHP will announce its “future course of
action”.
Depending upon the contents of the Allahabad High Court’s Lucknow
Bench order, the future course of action will be announced, he said.
The VHP has always maintained that the Ayodhya dispute could not be
solved by any court of law and that facilitating the construction of a
temple by an act of Parliament was the only solution to the vexed
issue.
Meanwhile, the executive committee of the All India Muslim Personal
Law Board (AIMPLB) will meet after the pronouncement of the Ayodhya
title suit verdict to deliberate over it and decide its future course
of action.
The 51-member executive body will hold a meeting, most likely in
Lucknow, the date for which will be decided shortly to deliberate over
the judgement and decide the future course of action, member of the
board, Khalid Rasheed Firangimahli told PTI here.
When the verdict was to be pronounced on September 24, this meeting
was scheduled for October 2 in Lucknow but now a fresh date will be
fixed shortly, he said.
Firangimahli said that as per an earlier decision taken by the board,
it will abide by the court verdict and follow the judicial process
and, if required, go to the Supreme Court.
Thank you
We appreciate you taking time to post your opinion
on this article.You might also like to read what others have to say on
this article.
When the saints go marching in
We are trav’ling in the footsteps
Of those who’ve gone before,
And we’ll all be reunited,
On a new and sunlit shore,
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
And when the sun refuse to shine
And when the sun refuse to shine
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the sun refuse to shine
And when the moon turns red with blood
And when the moon turns red with blood
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the moon turns red with blood
Oh, when the trumpet sounds its call
Oh, when the trumpet sounds its call
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the trumpet sounds its call
Some say this world of trouble,
Is the only one we need,
But I’m waiting for that morning,
When the new world is revealed.
Oh When the new world is revealed
Oh When the new world is revealed
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the new world is revealed
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Oh, when the saints go marching in
Lord, how I want to be in that number
When the saints go marching in
I used to have a playmate
Who would walk and talk with me
But since she got religion
She has turned her back on me.
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
30/09/2010
« Ayodhya Verdict Update: Thursday, September 30, 2010 18:46 PM IST
11:55 EST USA
navanavonmilita
A conversation with Philip Roth
The writer ruminates on God, his penchant for imagined hells, the
nature of imagination and the origins of his stories. His latest
novel, “Nemesis,” involves a polio epidemic in 1944 Newark.
Author Philip Roth, author of the book “Nemesis” published by Houghton
Mifflin Harcourt, 2010. (Nancy Crampton / September 24, 2010)
By David L. Ulin
Los Angeles Times Book Critic
October 3, 2010
la-ca-philip-roth-20101003
Reporting from New York — Perhaps one of the keys to aging as a
writer, Philip Roth is saying, is how one engages with calamity.
Certainly, that’s an issue in his latest novel, “Nemesis” (Houghton
Mifflin Harcourt: 280 pp., $26), which involves a polio epidemic in
the Jewish Weequahic neighborhood of Newark, N.J., in the summer of
1944. “I was making a list of subjects I had lived through that I’ve
never written about,” the author explains, sitting in a small
conference room at the Manhattan offices of his publisher, long
fingers steepled before him, voice smooth and understated as if worn
down a little bit by time. “There were quite a few, and when I thought
polio, I began to wonder how to treat it. I was born in 1933, so I
lived through the polio scare for many years.”
At 77, Roth has spent much of his career considering various menaces,
of both the individual and the collective sort. His 2004 novel “The
Plot Against America” posits an alternate history in which Charles
Lindbergh wins the 1940 presidential election, ushering in an oddly
nativist form of fascism; the American trilogy (“American Pastoral,”
“I Married a Communist,” “The Human Stain”) identifies a more elusive
danger: the strident sanctimony that, since at least the Red scare of
the 1950s, has been a dominant thread in the fabric of our public
life.
“Nemesis” has more than a little in common with such efforts, both
because of its Newark setting — Newark is to Roth what Dublin is to
Joyce, a landscape to which his imagination has consistently returned
since the publication of his first book, “Goodbye, Columbus,” in 1959
— and also because of the atmosphere of barely controlled panic, of
“vile accusation and intemperate hatred,” that runs throughout the
book. The story of Bucky Cantor, a 23-year-old playground director who
is forced to choose between the kids under his care and his devotion
to the young woman he wants to marry, becomes a nearly biblical
inquiry into conscience and responsibility, as well as the ongoing and
irresolvable conflict between humanity and God.
“Doesn’t God have a conscience?” Bucky wonders as he struggles to deal
with the sweep of the disease across his community. “Where’s His
responsibility?” The moment is reminiscent of the scene in “The Human
Stain” in which, as he confronts the “ceaseless perishing … [t]he
stupendous decimation that is death,” Roth’s alter ego, Nathan
Zuckerman, rages: “What an idea! What maniac conceived it?”
In Roth’s view, of course, this has everything to do with writing. “I
have no argument with God,” he says, “because I don’t believe in God.”
Nonetheless, it’s hard to read “Nemesis” without a sense of if not
theology then theodicy, the question of, as Roth puts it, “how God’s
goodness can exist in the face of all these catastrophes.” To Bucky,
this becomes the substance of a moral crisis; to Roth, it is yet
another iteration of the themes that mark his late novels, going back
to 2006′s “Everyman.”
These are dark books, concerned with tragic, even last things: the
death of the protagonist in “Everyman”; the series of “small,
ridiculous” mistakes that prove disastrous for the narrator of
“Indignation” (2008); the loss of acuity that afflicts the aging actor
at the center of “The Humbling” (2009). Taken together, they form a
suite of sorts — “Nemeses: Short Novels,” as Roth has taken to calling
them, “a sequence of thinking on my part about cataclysm.” Yet here
again, Roth raises a compelling set of distinctions, between the
writer and the character, between the author and his work. For all his
interest in collapse or ruination, he is refreshingly light-hearted
about it; at one point, he jokes, “I’m on a cataclysm kick.” And for
all that we may read the books as autobiographical — an older writer
putting his own concerns or worries into his fiction — Roth is adamant
that what he’s about is, as it has always been, the art of
storytelling, that to read him otherwise is to misunderstand the way
literature works.
That’s a complicated argument, considering that so many of Roth’s
books have appropriated the substance of his life as a starting point.
It’s not just Newark, where he was born and raised, but also his
struggle with Jewish middle-class conformity, as well as his
fascination with a certain unfettered sexuality, as embodied in novels
such as “Sabbath’s Theater” and “Portnoy’s Complaint.” The latter
book, in particular — a rabid confession from the psychotherapist’s
couch that made Roth a superstar when it appeared in 1969 — has long
been regarded as a thinly veiled personal statement, an illusion Roth
encouraged when he created Zuckerman, a writer who becomes infamous
for a novel, “Carnovsky,” which has something of the same effect.
And yet, if Roth is willing to acknowledge the connection, he is
insistent that such readings “fail to understand the nature of
imagination, which is what the writer has. People think that when a
character is angry, the writer is angry. But it’s not as simple as
that. The writer is delighted to have found the character’s anger. Or
his obstinacy. Or his unpredictability. It isn’t that I’m
unpredictable and obstinate. I’m just delighted that he is.”
Perhaps the most useful way to think about it, Roth continues, is as a
performance, in which he requires certain details, certain props, with
which to work. One element feeds another, until the story reveals
itself. “I don’t know very much,” he says about how he begins a novel.
“I write my way into my knowledge. Then, if I’m lucky, I get a break.
That’s why it’s so important to get started. Because however awful
starting is — and it is absolutely awful — when you get into it, when
you’ve got 10 pages, which may take two weeks, then you can begin to
build.” In the case of “Nemesis,” it was Bucky’s girlfriend who
provided the breakthrough, with her desire to keep him safe. At other
times, one novel has functioned as the fulcrum for another, shifting
his entire body of work. This is what happened with “The Ghost
Writer” (1979) and “The Counterlife” (1986), both of which represent
significant turning points. “‘The Counterlife’ especially,” Roth
recalls, “jettisoned me into ‘Operation Shylock’ and ‘Sabbath’s
Theater,’ and then I was cooking on all burners and stuff was just
coming out of me.”
By his own admission, Roth isn’t writing like that anymore; as he
says, “I don’t have that kind of energy now.” Yet with “Nemesis,” as
with “Everyman” and “Indignation” before it, he is talking through
himself to himself, across the arc of his career. Among the most
striking aspects of the novel is how much it reflects books such as
“Goodbye, Columbus” and “The Plot Against America,” in not just
narrative but theme too. Like the former, it involves a working-class
boy in love with both an upper-middle-class girl and the seeming
safety of her family. Like the latter, it evokes a fictional disaster
— there was no polio epidemic in Newark in 1944, any more than there
was a Lindbergh presidency — as a cautionary measurement, an
expression of how fortunate we were.
“I don’t know what causes me to want to imagine some hell that didn’t
happen,” Roth says, his voice quietly expressive, “but I think in a
way it’s a tribute to our luck.” As for the echoes, he suggests: “It’s
bound to happen, because things will come back disguised or in new
forms. You only have your dozen love letters to write, you know?”
Copyright © 2010, Los Angeles Times
Philip Roth
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the author. For the cellist, see Philipp Roth.
Philip Roth
Born Philip Milton Roth
March 19, 1933 (1933-03-19) (age 77)
Newark, New Jersey, U.S.
Occupation Novelist
Nationality American
Period 1959–present
Genres Literary fiction
Influences
Henry James, Franz Kafka, Saul Bellow, J.D. Salinger, Milan Kundera,
Charlotte Brontë, Emily Brontë, Henry Miller, Louis-Ferdinand Céline,
James Joyce, Joseph Conrad, William Faulkner, Fyodor Dostoyevsky,
Ernest Hemingway, Gustave Flaubert, Leo Tolstoy, Bernard Malamud,
Nikolai Gogol, Mark Twain, Sherwood Anderson, Primo Levi, John Updike,
Albert Camus
Influenced
Jonathan Lethem, Michael Chabon, Jonathan Franzen
Philip Milton Roth (born March 19, 1933)[1] is an American novelist.
He gained fame with the 1959 novella Goodbye, Columbus, an irreverent
and humorous portrait of Jewish-American life that earned him a
National Book Award,[2] and became a major celebrity with the
publication, in 1969, of the storm-provoking Portnoy’s Complaint, the
humorous psychoanalytical monologue of “a lust-ridden, mother-addicted
young Jewish bachelor,” filled with “intimate, shameful detail, and
coarse, abusive language.”[2][3]
Roth has since become one of the most honored authors of his
generation: his books have twice been awarded the National Book Award,
twice the National Book Critics Circle award, and three times the PEN/
Faulkner Award. He received a Pulitzer Prize for his 1997 novel,
American Pastoral, which featured his best known character, Nathan
Zuckerman, the subject of many other of Roth’s novels. His 2001 novel
The Human Stain, another Zuckerman novel, was awarded the United
Kingdom’s WH Smith Literary Award for the best book of the year. His
fiction, set frequently in Newark, New Jersey, is known for its
intensely autobiographical character, for philosophically and formally
blurring the distinction between reality and fiction, for its “supple,
ingenious style,” and for its provocative explorations of Jewish and
American identity.[4]
Life
Philip Roth grew up in the Weequahic neighborhood of Newark, New
Jersey, as the second child of first-generation American parents, Jews
of Galician descent, and graduated from Newark’s Weequahic High School
in 1950.[5] Roth attended Bucknell University, earning a degree in
English. He then pursued graduate studies at the University of
Chicago, where he received an M.A. in English literature and worked
briefly as an instructor in the university’s writing program. Roth
then taught creative writing at the University of Iowa and Princeton
University. He continued his academic career at the University of
Pennsylvania, where he taught comparative literature before retiring
from teaching in 1991.
While at Chicago, Roth met the novelist Saul Bellow, as well as
Margaret Martinson, who became his first wife. Their separation in
1963, along with Martinson’s death in a car crash in 1968, left a
lasting mark on Roth’s literary output. Specifically, Martinson was
the inspiration for female characters in several of Roth’s novels,
including Lucy Nelson in When She Was Good, and Maureen Tarnopol in My
Life As a Man.[6] Between the end of his studies and the publication
of his first book in 1959, Roth served two years in the United States
Army and then wrote short fiction and criticism for various magazines,
including movie reviews for The New Republic. Events in Roth’s
personal life have occasionally been the subject of media scrutiny.
According to his pseudo-confessional novel Operation Shylock (1993),
Roth suffered a nervous breakdown in the late 1980s. In 1990, he
married his long-time companion, English actress Claire Bloom. In 1994
they separated, and in 1996 Bloom published a memoir, Leaving a Doll’s
House, which described the couple’s marriage in detail, much of which
was unflattering to Roth. Certain aspects of I Married a Communist
have been regarded by critics as veiled rebuttals to accusations put
forth in Bloom’s memoir.
Career
Roth’s first book, Goodbye, Columbus, a novella and five short
stories, won the National Book Award in 1960, and afterwards he
published two novels, Letting Go and When She Was Good. However, it
was not until the publication of his third novel, Portnoy’s Complaint,
in 1969 that Roth enjoyed widespread commercial and critical success.
During the 1970s Roth experimented in various modes, from the
political satire Our Gang to the Kafkaesque The Breast. By the end of
the decade Roth had created his alter ego Nathan Zuckerman. In a
series of highly self-referential novels and novellas that followed
between 1979 and 1986, Zuckerman appeared as either the main character
or an interlocutor.
Sabbath’s Theater (1995) has perhaps Roth’s most lecherous
protagonist, Mickey Sabbath, a disgraced former puppeteer. In complete
contrast, the first volume of Roth’s second Zuckerman trilogy, 1997′s
American Pastoral, focuses on the life of virtuous Newark athletics
star Swede Levov and the tragedy that befalls him when his teenage
daughter transforms into a domestic terrorist during the late 1960s. I
Married a Communist (1998) focuses on the McCarthy era. The Human
Stain examines identity politics in 1990s America. The Dying Animal
(2001) is a short novel about eros and death that revisits literary
professor David Kepesh, protagonist of two 1970s works, The Breast and
The Professor of Desire. In The Plot Against America (2004), Roth
imagines an alternate American history in which Charles Lindbergh,
aviator hero and isolationist, is elected U.S. president in 1940, and
the U.S. negotiates an understanding with Hitler’s Nazi Germany and
embarks on its own program of anti-Semitism.
Roth’s novel Everyman, a meditation on illness, aging, desire, and
death, was published in May 2006. For Everyman Roth won his third PEN/
Faulkner Award, making him the only person so honored. Exit Ghost,
which again features Nathan Zuckerman, was released in October 2007.
According to the book’s publisher, it is the last Zuckerman novel.[7]
Indignation, Roth’s 29th book, was published on September 16, 2008.
Set in 1951, during the Korean War, it follows Marcus Messner’s
departure from Newark to Ohio’s Winesburg College, where he begins his
sophomore year. In 2009, Roth’s 30th book The Humbling was published,
which told the story of the last performances of Simon Axler, a
celebrated stage actor. The announced title of Roth’s 31st book is
Nemesis.
In October 2009, during an interview with Tina Brown of The Daily
Beast website to promote The Humbling, Roth considered the future of
literature and its place in society, stating his belief that within 25
years the reading of novels will be regarded as a “cultic” activity:
I was being optimistic about 25 years really. I think it’s going to be
cultic. I think always people will be reading them but it will be a
small group of people. Maybe more people than now read Latin poetry,
but somewhere in that range… To read a novel requires a certain amount
of concentration, focus, devotion to the reading. If you read a novel
in more than two weeks you don’t read the novel really. So I think
that kind of concentration and focus and attentiveness is hard to come
by — it’s hard to find huge numbers of people, large numbers of
people, significant numbers of people, who have those qualities[.][8]
When asked his opinion on the emergence of digital books and e-books
as possibly replacing printed copy, Roth was equally as negative and
downbeat about the prospect:
The book can’t compete with the screen. It couldn’t compete [in the]
beginning with the movie screen. It couldn’t compete with the
television screen, and it can’t compete with the computer screen… Now
we have all those screens, so against all those screens a book
couldn’t measure up.[9]
This interview is not the first time that Roth has expressed pessimism
over the future of the novel and its significance in recent years.
Talking to the Observer’s Robert McCrum in 2001, he said that “I’m not
good at finding ‘encouraging’ features in American culture. I doubt
that aesthetic literacy has much of a future here.”[8]
Influences and themes
Much of Roth’s fiction revolves around semi-autobiographical themes,
while self-consciously and playfully addressing the perils of
establishing connections between the author Philip Roth and his
fictional lives and voices,[citation needed] including narrators and
protagonists such as David Kepesh and Nathan Zuckerman or even the
character “Philip Roth”, of which there are two in Operation Shylock.
In Roth’s fiction, the question of authorship[citation needed] is
intertwined with the theme of the idealistic,[citation needed] secular
Jewish-American son who attempts to distance himself from Jewish
customs and traditions, and from what he perceives as the at times
suffocating influence of parents, rabbis, and other community leaders.
Jewish sons such as most infamously Alexander Portnoy and later Nathan
Zuckerman rebel by denouncing Judaism, while at the same time
remaining attached to a sense of Jewish identity.[citation needed]
Roth’s fiction has been described by critics as pervaded by “a kind of
alienation that is enlivened and exacerbated by what binds it”.[10]
Roth’s first work, Goodbye, Columbus, for his irreverent humor of the
life of middle-class Jewish Americans, was controversial among
reviewers, which were highly polarized in their judgments;[2] a
reviewer criticized it as infused with a sense of self-loathing. In
response, Roth, in his 1963 essay “Writing About Jews” (collected in
Reading Myself and Others), maintained that he wanted to explore the
conflict between the call to Jewish solidarity and his desire to be
free to question the values and morals of middle-class Jewish-
Americans uncertain of their identities in an era of cultural
assimilation and upward social mobility:
The cry “Watch out for the goyim!” at times seems more the expression
of an unconscious wish than of a warning: Oh that they were out there,
so that we could be together here! A rumor of persecution, a taste of
exile, might even bring with it the old world of feelings and habits —
something to replace the new world of social accessibility and moral
indifference, the world which tempts all our promiscuous instincts,
and where one cannot always figure out what a Jew is that a Christian
is not.[11]
In Roth’s fiction, the exploration of “promiscuous instincts” within
the context of Jewish-American lives, mainly from a male viewpoint,
plays an important role. In the words of critic Hermione Lee:
Philip Roth’s fiction strains to shed the burden of Jewish traditions
and proscriptions. … The liberated Jewish consciousness, let loose
into the disintegration of the American Dream, finds itself
deracinated and homeless. American society and politics, by the late
sixties, are a grotesque travesty of what Jewish immigrants had
traveled towards: liberty, peace, security, a decent liberal democracy.
[12]
While Roth’s fiction has strong autobiographical influences, it has
also incorporated social commentary and political satire, most
obviously in Our Gang and Operation Shylock. Since the 1990s, Roth’s
fiction has often combined autobiographical elements with
retrospective dramatizations of postwar American life. Roth has
described American Pastoral and the two following novels as a loosely
connected “American trilogy”. All these novels deal with aspects of
the postwar era against the backdrop of the nostalgically remembered
Jewish-American childhood of Nathan Zuckerman, in which the experience
of life on the American home front during the Second World War
features prominently.[citation needed]
In much of Roth’s fiction, the 1940s, comprising Roth’s and
Zuckerman’s childhood, mark a high point of American idealism and
social cohesion. A more satirical treatment of the patriotism and
idealism of the war years is evident in Roth’s more comic novels, such
as Portnoy’s Complaint and Sabbath’s Theater. In The Plot Against
America, the alternate history of the war years dramatizes the
prevalence of anti-Semitism and racism in America during the war
years, despite the promotion of increasingly influential anti-racist
ideals in wartime. Nonetheless, the 1940s, and the New Deal era of the
1930s that preceded it, are portrayed in much of Roth’s recent fiction
as a heroic phase in American history. A sense of frustration with
social and political developments in the US since the 1940s is
palpable in the American trilogy and Exit Ghost, but had already been
present in Roth’s earlier works that contained political and social
satire, such as Our Gang and The Great American Novel. Writing about
the latter novel, Hermione Lee points to the sense disillusionment
with “the American Dream” in Roth’s fiction: “The mythic words on
which Roth’s generation was brought up — winning, patriotism,
gamesmanship — are desanctified; greed, fear, racism, and political
ambition are disclosed as the motive forces behind the ‘all-American
ideals’.”[12]
Awards and honors
Two of Roth’s works of fiction have won the National Book Award; two
others were finalists. Two have won National Book Critics Circle
awards; again, another two were finalists. He has also won three PEN/
Faulkner Awards (Operation Shylock, The Human Stain, and Everyman) and
a Pulitzer Prize for Fiction for his 1997 novel, American Pastoral. In
2001, The Human Stain was awarded the United Kingdom’s WH Smith
Literary Award for the best book of the year. In 2002, he was awarded
the National Book Foundation’s Award for Distinguished Contribution to
American Letters. Literary critic Harold Bloom has named him as one of
the four major American novelists still at work, along with Thomas
Pynchon, Don DeLillo, and Cormac McCarthy.[13] His 2004 novel The Plot
Against America won the Sidewise Award for Alternate History in 2005
as well as the Society of American Historians’ James Fenimore Cooper
Prize for Best Historical Fiction. Roth was also awarded the United
Kingdom’s WH Smith Literary Award for the best book of the year, an
award Roth has received twice.[14] He was honored in his hometown in
October 2005 when then-mayor Sharpe James presided over the unveiling
of a street sign in Roth’s name on the corner of Summit and Keer
Avenues where Roth lived for much of his childhood, a setting
prominent in The Plot Against America. A plaque on the house where the
Roths lived was also unveiled. In May 2006, he was given the PEN/
Nabokov Award, and in 2007 he was awarded the PEN/Faulkner award for
Everyman, making him the award’s only three-time winner. In April
2007, he was chosen as the recipient of the first PEN/Saul Bellow
Award for Achievement in American Fiction.[15]
The May 21, 2006 issue of The New York Times Book Review announced the
results of a letter that was sent to what the publication described as
“a couple of hundred prominent writers, critics, editors and other
literary sages, asking them to please identify ‘the single best work
of American fiction published in the last 25 years.’” Six of Roth’s
novels were in the 22 selected: American Pastoral, The Counterlife,
Operation Shylock, Sabbath’s Theater, The Human Stain, and The Plot
Against America.[16] The accompanying essay, written by critic A.O.
Scott, stated, “If we had asked for the single best writer of fiction
of the past 25 years, [Roth] would have won.”[17]
Films
Four of Philip Roth’s novels and short stories have been made into
films: Goodbye, Columbus; Portnoy’s Complaint; The Human Stain; and
The Dying Animal which was made into the movie Elegy.
Bibliography
Main article: Bibliography of Philip Roth
Zuckerman novels
•The Ghost Writer (1979)
•Zuckerman Unbound (1981)
•The Anatomy Lesson (1983)
•The Prague Orgy (1985)
(The above four books are collected as Zuckerman Bound)
•The Counterlife (1986)
•American Pastoral (1997)
•I Married a Communist (1998)
•The Human Stain (2000)
•Exit Ghost (2007)
[edit] Roth novels
•Deception: A Novel (1990)
•Operation Shylock: A Confession (1993)
•The Plot Against America (2004)
[edit] Kepesh novels
•The Breast (1972)
•The Professor of Desire (1977)
•The Dying Animal (2001)
[edit] Other novels
•Goodbye, Columbus (1959)
•Letting Go (1962)
•When She Was Good (1967)
•Portnoy’s Complaint (1969)
•Our Gang (1971)
•The Great American Novel (1973)
•My Life As a Man (1974)
•Sabbath’s Theater (1995)
•Everyman (2006)
•Indignation (2008)
•The Humbling (2009)
•Nemesis (2010)
Nonfiction
•The Facts: A Novelist’s Autobiography (1988)
•Patrimony: A True Story (1991)
Collections
•Reading Myself and Others (1976)
•A Philip Roth Reader (1980, revised edition 1993)
•Shop Talk (2001)
Library of America Editions
Main article: The Library of America’s definitive edition of Philip
Roth’s collected works
Edited by Ross Miller
•Novels and Stories 1959-1962 (2005) ISBN 978-1-93108279-2
•Novels 1967-1972 (2005) ISBN 978-1-93108280-8
•Novels 1973-1977 (2006) ISBN 978-1-93108296-9
•Zuckerman Bound: A Trilogy and Epilogue 1979-1985 (2007) ISBN
978-1-59853-011-7
•Novels and Other Narratives 1986-1991 (2008) ISBN 978-1-59853-030-8
•Novels 1993–1995 (2010) ISBN 978-1-59853-078-0
[edit] List of awards
•1960 National Book Award for Goodbye, Columbus
•1986 National Book Critics Circle Award for The Counterlife
•1991 National Book Critics Circle Award for Patrimony
•1994 PEN/Faulkner Award for Operation Shylock
•1995 National Book Award for Sabbath’s Theater
•1998 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction for American Pastoral
•1998 Ambassador Book Award of the English-Speaking Union for I
Married a Communist
•1998 National Medal of Arts
•2000 Prix du Meilleur Livre Étranger (France) for American Pastoral
•2001 PEN/Faulkner Award for The Human Stain
•2001 Gold Medal In Fiction from The American Academy of Arts and
Letters
•2001 WH Smith Literary Award for The Human Stain
•2002 National Book Foundation‘s Award for Distinguished Contribution
to American Letters
•2002 Prix Médicis Étranger (France) for The Human Stain
•2003 Honorary Doctor of Letters degree from Harvard University
•2005 Sidewise Award for Alternate History for The Plot Against
America
•2005 James Fenimore Cooper Prize for Best Historical Fiction for The
Plot Against America
•2006 PEN/Nabokov Award for lifetime achievement
•2007 PEN/Faulkner Award for Everyman
•2007 PEN/Saul Bellow Award for Achievement in American Fiction
•2010 Paris Review’s Hadada Prize
Notes
1.^ Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of American Writers. 2001. p. 350.
ISBN 9780877790228.
2.^ a b c Brauner (2005), pp.43-7
3.^ Saxton (1974)
4.^ U.S. Department of State, U.S. Life, “American Prose, 1945-1990:
Realism and Experimentation”
5.^ Lubasch, Arnold H. “Philip Roth Shakes Weequahic High”, The New
York Times, February 28, 1969. Accessed September 8, 2007. “It has
provided the focus for the fiction of Philip Roth, the novelist who
evokes his era at Weequahic High School in the highly acclaimed
Portnoy’s Complaint.… Besides identifying Weequahic High School by
name, the novel specifies such sites as the Empire Burlesque, the
Weequahic Diner, the Newark Museum and Irvington Park, all local
landmarks that helped shape the youth of the real Roth and the
fictional Portnoy, both graduates of Weequahic class of ’50.”
6.^ Roth, Philip. The Facts: A Novelist’s Autobiography. New York,
1988. Roth discusses Martinson’s portrait in this memoir. He calls her
“Josie” in When She Was Good on pp. 149 and 175. He discusses her as
an inspiration for My Life As a Man throughout the book’s second half,
most completely in the chapter “Girl of My Dreams,” which includes
this on p. 110: “Why should I have tried to make up anything better?
How could I?” Her influence upon Portnoy’s Complaint is seen in The
Facts as more diffuse, a kind of loosening-up for the author: “It took
time and it took blood, and not, really, until I began Portnoy’s
Complaint would I be able to cut loose with anything approaching her
gift for flabbergasting boldness.” (p. 149)
7.^ “Zuckerman’s Last Hurrah.” New York Times. November 30, 2006.
8.^ a b Flood, Alison (26 October 2009). “Philip Roth predicts novel
will be minority cult within 25 years”. The Guardian.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/oct/26/philip-roth-novel-minority-cult.
9.^ Brown, Tina (October 21, 2009). “Philip Roth Unbound: The Full
Interview”. The Daily Beast.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-10-21/philip-roth-unbound-the-full-interview.
Retrieved March 2, 2010.
10.^ Greenberg (1997), p.11
11.^ Roth, Philip (December 1963). “Writing About Jews”. Commentary.
12.^ a b Lee, Hermione (1982). Philip Roth. New York: Methuen & Co.,
1982.
13.^ Bloom, Harold. “Dumbing down American readers”. The Boston Globe.
September 24, 2003.
14.^ WH Smith Award
15.^ PEN American Center. “Philip Roth Wins Inaugural PEN/Saul Bellow
Award”. April 2, 2007.
16.^ The New York Times Book Review. “What Is the Best Work of
American Fiction of the Last 25 Years?”. May 21, 2006.
17.^ Scott, A.O. “In Search of the Best”. The New York Times. May 21,
2006.
References
•Brauner, David (1969) Getting in Your Retaliation First: Narrative
Strategies in Portnoy’s Complaint in Royal, Derek Parker (2005) Philip
Roth: new perspectives on an American author, chapter 3
•Greenberg, Robert (Winter 1997). “Trangression in the Fiction of
Philip Roth”. Twentieth Century Literature (Hofstra University) 43
(4): 487. doi:10.2307/441747. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0403/is_n4_v43/ai_20614549.
•Saxton, Martha (1974) Philip Roth Talks about His Own Work Literary
Guild June 1974, n.2. Also published in in Philip Roth, George John
Searles (1992) Conversations with Philip Roth p. 78
[edit] Further reading and literary criticism
•Bloom, Harold and Welsch, Gabe, eds., Modern Critical Interpretations
of Philip Roth’s Portnoy’s Complaint, Chelsea House, 2003.
•Bloom, Harold, ed., Modern Critical Views of Philip Roth, Chelsea
House, New York, 2003.
•Cooper, Alan, Philip Roth and the Jews (SUNY Series in Modern Jewish
Literature and Culture), SUNY Press, Albany, NY, 1996.
•Kinzel, Till, Die Tragödie und Komödie des amerikanischen Lebens.
Eine Studie zu Zuckermans Amerika in Philip Roths Amerika-Trilogie
(American Studies Monograph Series), Heidelberg: Winter, 2006.
•Milowitz, Steven, Philip Roth Considered: The Concentrationary
Universe of the American Writer, Routledge, New York, 2000.
•Morley, Catherine, The Quest for Epic in Contemporary American
Literature, Routledge, New York, 2008.
•Parrish, Timothy, ed., The Cambridge Companion to Philip Roth,
Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2007.
•Podhoretz, Norman, “The Adventures of Philip Roth,” Commentary
(October 1998), reprinted as “Philip Roth, Then and Now” in The Norman
Podhoretz Reader, 2004.
•Posnock, Ross, Philip Roth’s Rude Truth: The Art of Immaturity,
Princeton University Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 2006.
•Royal, Derek Parker, Philip Roth: New Perspectives on an American
Author, Praeger Publishers, Santa Barbara, CA, 2005.
•Safer, Elaine B., Mocking the Age: The Later Novels of Philip Roth
(SUNY Series in Modern Jewish Literature and Culture), SUNY Press,
Albany, NY, 2006.
•Searles, George J., ed., Conversations With Philip Roth, University
of Mississippi Press, Jackson, Mississippi, 1992.
•Searles, George J., The Fiction of Philip Roth and John Updike,
Southern Illinois University Press, Carbondale, Illinois, 1984.
•Shostak, Debra B., Philip Roth: Countertexts, Counterlives,
University of South Carolina Press, Columbia, SC, 2004.
•Simic, Charles, “The Nicest Boy in the World,” The New York Review of
Books, Vol. LV, No. 15, 9 October 2008.
•Wöltje, Wiebke-Maria, My finger on the pulse of the nation.
Intellektuelle Protagonisten im Romanwerk Philip Roths (Mosaic, 26),
Trier: WVT, 2006.
External links
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Philip Roth
Informational
•Literary Encyclopedia biography
•The Philip Roth Society
•Philip Roth looks back on a legendary career, and forward to his
final act
•Works by Philip Roth on Open Library at the Internet Archive
Interviews
•Roth interview – from NPR‘s “Fresh Air“, September 2005
•Roth interview – from The Guardian, December 2005
•Roth interview – from Open Source
•Roth interview – from Der Spiegel, February 2008
•Roth interview – from the London Times, October 17, 2009
•Roth interview – from CBC‘s Writers and Company. Aired 2009-11-01
v • d • e
Works by Philip Roth
Fiction Goodbye, Columbus · Letting Go · When She Was Good ·
Portnoy’s Complaint · Our Gang · The Great American Novel · My Life As
a Man · Sabbath’s Theater · Everyman · Indignation · The Humbling ·
Nemesis
Kepesh Novels The Breast · The Professor of Desire · The Dying Animal
Zuckerman Novels The Ghost Writer · Zuckerman Unbound · The Anatomy
Lesson · The Prague Orgy · The Counterlife · American Pastoral · I
Married a Communist · The Human Stain · Exit Ghost
Roth Novels Deception · Operation Shylock · The Plot Against America
Short Stories “The Conversion of the Jews” · “Defender of the Faith” ·
“The Kind of Person I am” · “Epstein” · “You Can’t Tell a Man by the
Song He Sings” · “Eli, the Fanatic” · “Philosophy, or Something Like
That” · “The Box of Truths” · “The Fence” · “Armando and the Frauds” ·
“The Final Delivery of Mr. Thorn” · “The Day It Snowed” · “The Contest
for Aaron Gold” · “Heard Melodies Are Sweeter” · “Expect the Vandals”
· “The Love Vessel” · “The Good Girl” · “The Mistaken” · “Novotny’s
Pain” · “Psychoanalytic Special” · “An Actor’s Life for Me” · “On the
Air” · “His Mistress’s Voice” · “Smart Money” · “The Ultimatum” ·
“Drenka’s Men” · “Communist”
Collections Zuckerman Bound · A Philip Roth Reader · Library of
America series
Non-fiction Memoirs The Facts · Patrimony
On Writing Reading Myself and Others · Shop Talk
Adaptations Films Goodbye, Columbus · Portnoy’s Complaint · The Human
Stain · Elegy
Philip Roth bibliography
Persondata
NAME Roth, Philip
ALTERNATIVE NAMES Roth, Philip Milton (full name)
SHORT DESCRIPTION Novelist
DATE OF BIRTH March 19, 1933
PLACE OF BIRTH Newark, New Jersey, United States
DATE OF DEATH
PLACE OF DEATH
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Roth“
Categories: 1933 births | Living people | American novelists |
American short story writers | American atheists | Jewish atheists |
Bucknell University alumni | Jewish American writers | Jewish
novelists | Members of the American Academy of Arts and Letters |
United States National Medal of Arts recipients | People from Newark,
New Jersey | National Book Award winners | Pulitzer Prize for Fiction
winners | Sidewise Award winning authors | University of Chicago
alumni | University of Iowa faculty | Princeton University faculty |
University of Pennsylvania faculty | Writers from New Jersey | Iowa
Writers’ Workshop faculty | American Jews | Galician Jews | Guggenheim
Fellows | Jewish American military personnel | Prix Médicis étranger
winners
•This page was last modified on 30 September 2010 at 21:50.
•Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike
License;
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation,
Inc., a non-profit organization.
…and I am Sid Harth
Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews
30/09/2010
« Portrait of A Hindu Hoodlum, Dharun Vir of Rutgers U VIII
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/10/01/my-dear-uncle-osama-3/
Uncle Osama
My Dear Uncle Osama,
assalamaleikum
This is to confirm your message, 911, oops, bad number. Anyway, your
coded message was delivered by P911, superbly encrypted, suitably
garbled, methodically manipulated and naturally late by one month. I
cannot blame you for a stale message. It is tough to train, oops,
mastermind, oops, properly brainwash green pigeons in the mountains of
northwest Pakistan. By the way, did you feed this green pigeon with
choice grains? It was so hungry when it arrived at my TV antenna that
it almost collapsed, tumbled down in the rain gutter and lay there
motionless for few hours. It was my good fortune that I decided to
clean up my gutters that day when I found it. I rescued it, brought it
to my kitchen, put some some Zem-Zem holy water in its beak, massaged
its almost catatonic body and lo and behold. It spoke.
May Allah be Praised, it said. May all those 3.3 million Hindu gods be
double praised, says I. Glory Hallelulah, it says.
The End
Purported bin Laden message focuses on relief issues
By the CNN Wire StaffOctober 1, 2010 7:18 a.m. EDT
A video purportedly featuring Osama bin Laden’s voice shows his photo
interspersed with images of disaster zones.STORY HIGHLIGHTS
The speaker addresses relief work
The message is more than 11 minutes
(CNN) — A message purportedly from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is
urging Muslims to tackle famine, flood relief, and clean water — stark
problems plaguing parts of the Islamic world.
The message, which appeared on jihadist forums Friday, strongly urged
Muslims to help Muslims by investing in infrastructure projects and
developing awareness programs, such as how to deal with issues like
water pollution.
The speaker started the message by wishing the Muslim world a happy
Ramadan, which fell between early August and early September, and he
also focused on the floods in Pakistan.
The speech, entitled, “Pauses with the Method of Relief Work,” came in
an 11 minute, 39 second video produced by al-Qaeda’s media arm, as-
Sahab.
CNN could not verify the authenticity of the message.
The video featured a still photo of bin Laden with alternating images
of people in disaster zones receiving aid over the voice of the
speaker.
A purported bin Laden tape surfaced in March. The voice on that tape
hints at retaliation if alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
is executed.
CNN’s Caroline Faraj contributed to this report
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, History, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews,
Propaganda, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
01/10/2010
« Philip Roth and I
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/09/30/portrait-of-a-hindu-hoodlum-dharun-vir-of-rutgers-u-viii/
Dharun Ravi rutger2
Dharun Ravi Rutgers PHOTO
Posted on September 29th, 2010 in New York by lalate
NEW YORK (LALATE) – Dharun Ravi (photo below) is the Rutgers student
charged with sending a live stream of his gay roommate Tyler Clementi
(aka Tyler Clemente) online via a webcam while Clementi had relations
with his boyfriend. When Dharun Ravi was told by his roommate that he
wanted their dorm room for himself for a few hours so that he could
have relations, Ravi’s reaction was “yeah”.
Ravi soon decided to allegedly become the roommate from hell. Ravi
left behind a webcam connected as he exited the room, claim police. He
ended to another Rutgers room. There he remotely accessed the webcam,
put Tyler online via live streaming video, captured pictures, posted
the pictures, activated a chat room for discussed, and tried to
promote his endeavors via social networking on Twitter, claim police.
Rutgers Pictures: Tyler Clemente Case
Rutgers Photo 1
Rutgers Photo 2
Rutgers Photo 3
What roommate would do such a thing?
After the Ravi was released last Wednesday, Clementi headed to the
George Washington Bridge. At 8:50 pm, Clementi was spotted standing on
the south walk of the bridge; his car, cellphone, and computer were
reportedly close by. New York news is reporting that Tyler Clementi
jumped to his death. His body has yet to be recovered.
Bashing of students by fellow students is dominating our society. In
twenty four hours, LALATE has reported four teen students, as young as
13 and as old as 18, taking their lives this school year because of
ridicule.
CNN’s Anderson Cooper last night addressed the subject. He invited
Andrew Shirvell who defended his “Chris Armstrong Watch”. Chris
Armstrong is a student at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor campus.
Shirvell is a member of Michigan’s attorney general’s office, and a
person obligated to prosecute wrongful conduct in the State of
Michigan. While Armstrong has been able to brush off Shirvell’s
ridicule, Shirvell took to national news last night to name call
Armstrong.
“I’m a Christian citizen exercising my First Amendment rights. I have
no problem that Chris is homosexual. I have a problem that he’s
advancing a very radical agenda.” When asked if he was bigot, Shirvell
then called Chris Armstrong a “bigot”. “The real bigot here is Chris
Armstrong, I don’t have any hate in my body at all”
For more the Clementi death on LALATE, click here:
http://news.lalate.com/category/new-york/
Groups: Prosecute Rutgers case as hate crime
New Jersey law among strictest in country; federal charges unlikely
Video
Gay rights groups say Rutgers suicide a hate crime
NBC News and news services NBC News and news services
updated 2 hours 18 minutes ago
Some gay rights groups are urging that New Jersey’s hate crime law be
used in the case of the Rutgers student who committed suicide after an
intimate encounter with another student was shown on the Internet.
The state’s hate crime law is among the strictest in the nation, and
it works as most of them do. It’s not an offense charged on its own.
Instead, it’s invoked at sentencing to seek a harsher penalty. The
criminal charges filed so far in the case — invasion of privacy —
would qualify for a hate crime enhancement, say legal experts in the
state.
Technolog: Internet was help — and hell — for Rutgers freshman
According to the Middlesex County prosecutor, New Jersey’s invasion of
privacy statutes make it a crime “to collect or view images depicting
nudity or sexual contact involving another individual without that
person’s consent.” It’s a separate crime to transmit or distribute
those images. The penalty can include a prison term of up to five
years.
If the hate crime enhancement were applied, it would raise the maximum
penalty to 10 years.
Tyler Clementi, 18, jumped off New York City’s George Washington
Bridge into the Hudson River last week. His body was identified on
Thursday after being found in the river a day before.
Most popular Was Rutgers suicide case a hate crime?
Updated 119 minutes ago Outrage on campus after sex-video suicide
Gay rights groups say Rutgers suicide a hate crime
Clementi’s roommate, Dharun Ravi, and fellow Rutgers freshman Molly
Wei, both 18, have been charged with invading Clementi’s privacy.
Prosecutors say that they used a webcam to surreptitiously transmit a
live image of Clementi having sex Sept. 19 and that Ravi tried to
webcast a second encounter on Sept. 21, the day before Clementi’s
suicide.
As for possible federal charges, a Justice Department official says
that’s not likely at this point. The federal hate crime law would not
apply, the official says, because it requires proof of an intent to
cause violence to the victim.
YouTube channel offers hope to gay teens
Steven Goldstein, chairman of New Jersey-based Garden State Equality,
said in a statement that his group considers Clementi’s death a hate
crime.
“We are heartbroken over the tragic loss of a young man who, by all
accounts, was brilliant, talented and kind,” Goldstein said. “And we
are sickened that anyone in our society, such as the students
allegedly responsible for making the surreptitious video, might
consider destroying others’ lives as a sport.”
Former assistant Essex County prosecutor Luanne Peterpaul, who is vice
chairwoman of Garden State Equality, said in order to apply the hate
crime law prosecutors would need to establish that the defendants were
motivated to act because they perceived Clementi as gay. But that can
be hard to prove, she said.
Story: Outrage on campus over student’s suicide after sex is broadcast
online
Gay rights groups say Clementi’s death is the latest example of a long-
standing problem: young people who kill themselves because they’re
bullied about being gay — regardless of whether they are.
In response to Clementi’s death and others, the group Parents,
Families & Friends of Lesbians and Gays said it would issue a “call to
action” on the topic.
Last week, Dan Savage, a columnist at the Seattle weekly newspaper The
Stranger, launched the It Gets Better Project, a YouTube channel where
gay, lesbian and bisexual adults share the turmoil they experienced
when they were younger — and show how their lives have gotten better.
NBC News Justice Correspondent Pete Williams and The Associated Press
contributed to this report
Obama signs hate crimes bill into law
October 28, 2009 7:39 p.m. EDT
President Obama signs the $680 billion defense spending bill that
includes the hate crimes law.
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Law is attached to $680 billion defense authorization bill
It is named for Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr., both killed in
1998
Shepard was gay, Byrd was African-American
Former President Bush had threatened to veto a similar measure
Washington (CNN) — President Obama on Wednesday signed a law that
makes it a federal crime to assault an individual because of his or
her sexual orientation or gender identity.
The expanded federal hate crimes law, hailed by supporters as the
first major federal gay rights legislation, was added to a $680
billion defense authorization bill that Obama signed at a packed White
House ceremony.
The hate crimes measure was named for Matthew Shepard, a gay Wyoming
teenager who died after being kidnapped and severely beaten in October
1998, and James Byrd Jr., an African-American man dragged to death in
Texas the same year.
Shepard’s mother, Judy, was among those at the ceremony that also
included Vice President Joe Biden, Defense Secretary Robert Gates,
Attorney General Eric Holder and leading members of Congress and the
Pentagon, who were on hand for the appropriations bill signing.
To loud applause, Obama hailed the hate crimes measure in the bill as
a step toward change to “help protect our citizens from violence based
on what they look like, who they love, how they pray.”
Video: Obama signs hate crime bill
RELATED TOPICS
Hate Crimes
Military and Defense Policy
Barack Obama
He cited the work of the late Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts and
others “to make this day possible.”
Later Wednesday, Obama stood with Shepard’s parents and relatives of
Byrd at a separate White House event honoring passage of the expanded
hate crimes law.
Noting reports of 12,000 crimes based on sexual orientation over the
past 10 years, Obama called the bill another step in the continuing
struggle for protecting human rights.
“Because of the efforts of the folks in this room, particularly those
family members standing behind me, the bell rings even louder now,”
Obama said. When he finished his remarks, he hugged the weeping
relatives as the audience applauded.
Several religious groups have expressed concern that a hate crimes law
could be used to criminalize conservative speech relating to subjects
such as abortion or homosexuality. However, Holder has said that any
federal hate-crimes law would be used only to prosecute violent acts
based on bias, not to prosecute speech based on controversial racial
or religious beliefs.
Former President George W. Bush had threatened to veto a similar
measure, but Obama brought a reversal of that policy to the White
House.
When the bill won final congressional approval last week, Human Rights
Campaign president Joe Solmonese called the hate crimes measure “our
nation’s first major piece of civil rights legislation for lesbian,
gay, bisexual and transgender people.”
Earlier this month, Obama told the Human Rights Campaign, the
country’s largest gay rights group, that the nation still needs to
make significant changes to ensure equal rights for gays and lesbians.
“Despite the progress we’ve made, there are still laws to change and
hearts to open,” he said in an address at the group’s annual dinner.
“This fight continues now and I’m here with the simple message: I’m
here with you in that fight.”
Among other things, Obama has called for the repeal of the ban on gays
serving openly in the military — the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.
He also has urged Congress to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and
pass the Domestic Partners Benefit and Obligations Act.
The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage, for federal purposes, as
a legal union between a man and a woman. It allows states to refuse to
recognize same-sex marriages. The Domestic Partners Benefit and
Obligations Act would extend family benefits now available to
heterosexual federal employees to gay and lesbian federal workers.
However, some advocates for stronger rights for the lesbian-gay-
bisexual-transgender community have complained that Obama’s
administration is moving too slowly on his legislative promises.
Opponents of the expanded hate crimes bill challenged the need to
specify one particular community in federal legislation. They
contended that existing federal hate crimes laws were sufficient to
protect the rights of people based on sexual orientation and gender
identity.
More than 77,000 hate-crime incidents were reported by the FBI between
1998 and 2007, or “nearly one hate crime for every hour of every day
over the span of a decade,” Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee
in June.
At Wednesday’s signing, Obama also praised what he called a bipartisan
effort to start changing the culture of military spending through the
annual appropriations bill. He noted that Gates had worked with
congressional leaders to end what Obama called wasteful projects like
the F-22 fighter bomber and a new presidential helicopter that would
have cost “almost as much as Air Force One.”
“I won’t be flying on that,” the president said.
Noting that cost overruns in military projects total tens of billions
of dollars, Obama called for further “fundamental” reforms in how the
government and Pentagon do business.
“We all know where this kind of waste comes from,” he said, citing
“indefensible” no-bid contracts and special interests pushing unneeded
weapons systems.
Such actions are “inexcusable”, “unconscionable” and an “affront to
the American people” as the nation faces two wars and an economic
recession, Obama said.
“Today I’m pleased to say that we have proved that change is
possible,” he said.
Watch Video:
Added On October 28, 2009
President Obama signed legislation that makes it a federal crime to
assault someone because of sexual orientation.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/politics/2009/10/28/obama.signs.hate.crime.bill.cnn.html
Motherlode
Adventure in Parenting
September 30, 2010, 12:22 pm
Suicide and the Internet
By LISA BELKIN
no credit…Published 09-30-2010: Tyler ClementiOnce again, I am
thinking about the parents.
The news that an 18-year-old freshman at Rutgers University committed
suicide after his roommate allegedly broadcast the young man’s sexual
encounter over the Internet, has become one of those stories that all
parents feel personally. Could my child be victimized so easily? Could
my child do something that stupid and cruel?
Tyler Clementi was a violinist. By description he was a quiet student,
not well known by others in his dorm, though hundreds turned out for a
memorial vigil on campus last night. His college career had only just
begun, and I keep putting myself in the shoes of his parents, who had
just dropped their child off for the start of a new adventure, then, a
few weeks later, received word that every parent dreads.
I also keep thinking of the parents of the roommate, Dharun Ravi, who
was probably matched with Celmenti by a random computer program, and
Molly Wei, the classmate charged with helping Mr. Ravi with the prank.
And a prank is what they seem to have thought it was. They would not
be the first to think so. Back when I was in college, a couple of
young men found themselves a video camera, climbed onto a dumpster
outside a dorm window, and taped a friend having sex. Then they showed
the film at a party and everyone laughed — everyone but the girl who
had no idea the the encounter had been filmed. No charges were ever
filed.
Seems the students got their idea from the movie MASH, when a
microphone is placed under a cot, broadcasting a tryst between Frank
Burns and Margaret Houlihan to the entire camp. Everyone laughed then,
too.
But while the idea may not be new, the technology is. You can violate
someone nowadays with the touch of a button and in front of the entire
world. I am betting that Ravi and Wei never thought for a moment that
by outing Clementi on the Internet he would leave a note online saying
he had headed for the George Washington Bridge and that his body would
be found in the Hudson River. After all, it was a joke. Wasn’t it?
And I would guess that Ravi and Wei’s parents are searching through
stored memories, too. Were there other “jokes” over the years that no
one stopped? Was there a tolerance of antigay slurs from time to time?
They are anguished, I am sure. Confused, perhaps, at how their
children could be so stupid. Or maybe they feel like victims of a
wireless world in which every misstep is magnified and cached forever.
In that way, they have an awful lot in common with the Clementis.
Tyler Clementi’s death was announced just as Rutgers kicked off a two-
year, campuswide project to teach the importance of civility, with
special attention to the use and abuse of new technology. Excellent
subject. But it’s one that parent’s should be teaching in the 18 years
before their children even get to campus.
“It’s only funny until someone loses an eye,” the saying goes.
No, it isn’t funny in the first place.
.85 Readers’ Comments
1.alw tucsonSeptember 30th, 201012:58 pm
This story is so incredibly heartbreaking. As a parent I can not
imagine being in the shoes of any of the parents involved.
The insensitivity of some people is amazing. I can not understand how
this could have been thought of as a joke. Even thinking about myself
as a college student I still don’t think back then I would have found
it amusing.
I am teaching my daughters to treat others how they would like to be
treated, & I sure hope they remember that lesson. If they were on the
other side of the lens I can only hope that they would be strong
enough to pull themselves through it.
Recommended by 13 Readers Report as Inappropriate
.2.EKA HoustonSeptember 30th, 201012:58 pm
Was what Ravi and Wei did cruel, insensitive, a violation of privacy?
Yes. Does it deserve 5 years in prison or any prison time at all? No
I just do not believe that incident alone led to this young man’s
suicide. I also don’t believe it came out of no where for his
parent’s. Having had 2 friends who committed suicide it never comes
out of nowhere for anyone that is paying the least bit of attention.
It is tragic that paths aligned for this to happen. What if… what if
he had a more tolerant roomate, or one less adept with technology or…
or… with that said one future has been ruined. There is nothing to be
gained from ruining 2 more over what was obviously intended to be a
prank.
Recommended by 16 Readers
.3.J. Gravelle Milwaukee, WISeptember 30th, 201012:58 pm
Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei ARE guilty of a hate crime, no matter how
you look at it. But they probably won’t be charged with one:
Congratulations, lawmakers. Once again, you’ve made a tragic situation
even worse…
-jjg
Recommended by 9 Readers
.4.A. BrooklynSeptember 30th, 201012:58 pm
Thank you for your comments, I’ve been thinking of all those involved
and touched by this and all I can feel is tragedy. Such a loss.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.5.K. Mayer
Middle Class ConnecticutSeptember 30th, 201012:58 pm
Hearts are breaking everywhere, for any one who’s been abused and
bullied on and off cyberspace. Shame on bystanders who tuned in, but
did nothing.
http://returntoworkmom.blogspot.com/
Recommended by 8 Readers
.6.Benji UKSeptember 30th, 20101:07 pm
It is easy to vilify, and they weren’t to know he would kill himself,
but you are at least giving Ravi and Wei the benefit of the doubt.
From the messages Clementi left on other sites, it’s clear his
perception was that they were being outright homophobic. Furthermore,
reports of the messages left on the live broadcast (over iChat)
suggest they are acutely homophobic in nature.
This is more than an “ordinary” tease, as with the video recordings of
straight couples you mention, because it invited homophobic elements
of the campus to express their disgust. There is a question as to
whether this was intentional, but Clementi appears to have thought so,
and there is such clear and obvious inevitability that this would
invite a scree of gay hating that it is hard to see the act as
anything other than a severe, malign and tragic case of outright
homophobic bullying.
Recommended by 42 Readers
.7.In Awe San Francisco, CASeptember 30th, 20101:15 pm
This is so incredibly sad. I can only hope that Tyler rests in peace
and that his parents will someday find peace with this whole mess.
As far as pranks…this is was not a prank in any way. This was not
harmless and Ravi and Wei knew that (they are 18, obviously
intelligent, of course they knew). How would they have liked it if it
happened to them? They need to be punished to the fullest extent of
the law…and then some.
As for Ravi’s and Wei’s parents…I am really trying to feel for them
but am having a hard time doing so. Maybe because I just feel so angry
that Tyler, a promising young musician with everything to live for,
was victimized by these two.
Sad, sad, sad.
Recommended by 28 Readers
.8.lisette
ncSeptember 30th, 20101:15 pm
My heart goes out to those parents. I can only imagine the shattering
grief they are feeling.
I am giving my kids the talk on NEVER NEVER NEVER do, or say, or even
whisper, anything you don’t want broadcast to the whole world, because
the whole world now carries a webcam in their cell phone. There are no
private moments anymore, there never again will be any. Oddly enough,
our insistence on pseudo-intimacy with everyone (c’mon, all those
people on facebook are not really your “friends”) has destroyed the
possibility and the safety of any real intimacy with anyone.
Recommended by 21 Readers
.9.momof2
SeattleSeptember 30th, 20101:20 pm
If interested, people can email the president of Rutgers directly and
tell him what you think at pres...@rutgers.edu.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.10.T
New York, NYSeptember 30th, 20102:46 pm
Technology is definitely muddling the lines between what is acceptable
social behavior and what is not. People can do or say anything they
want under the disguise of a screen name (i.e. this post) and not
encounter consequences the way one might have 10 or 15 years ago. Even
doing something as simple as having lunch with a friend has become a
chore, when they’d rather text someone else than talk to the person
right in front of them.
I just finished college, and I don’t have kids, but I notice what is
happening to my generation that so many of them simply don’t – we
don’t know how to interact with, or treat, people any more.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.11.miami lawyer mama
Miami, FLSeptember 30th, 20102:46 pm
This is simply heartbreaking. Upon reading the news, I imagined myself
in the place of Tyler’s parents. If I were his mother I would agonize
over that last facebook status, wondering if anyone saw it, if I had
seen it, if he could have been reached before it was too late. I cry
as I write this and as I read each article about this sad sad sad
story. My deepest condolences to his family.
As for the thoughtless, heartless, roommate, who knowingly exposed
Tyler to ridicule and derision, I have no sympathy. I leave judgment
to the courts, for both him and his girlfriend, who may not have taken
any role in Ravi’s act, based on the limited information available.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.12.obidos SomewhereSeptember 30th, 20102:49 pm
This Motherlode post repeatedly minimizes and trivializes the crime
these two adults appear to have committed. No, it wasn’t “stupid,”
and, no, it wasn’t a “prank” or a “joke.”
It was a premeditated, long-planned, calculated act of sadism. It was
evil.
It was also a hate crime against a gay man.
Many have said, “Oh, they probably would’ve done the same thing with a
heterosexual incident.” Possibly — and unless it emerges that they’d
done so in the past, we’ll never know — but if the encounter had been
heterosexual, it would’ve played out very differently in the culture,
the perpetrators would’ve known very well about that difference in
advance, and therefore the act would’ve been committed with a
different intent.
If it had been a straight encounter, the intended victim most likely
would’ve been the woman, and it would’ve likely constituted a hate
crime against women. The man in the encounter would’ve had his privacy
invaded, yes, but he typically would’ve been slapped on the back and
congratulated.
The infamous “Junior/Senior” night incident Ms Belkin recalls from her
college days was similarly a hate crime against women. Most people on
campus were unwilling to recognize it as such at the time, and Ms.
Belkin still doesn’t seem to have “gotten” it.
Last, this latest incident was a predatory crime that preyed on
someone perceived as vulnerable — in this case because the person was
reportedly shy and socially inhibited.
It *might* even have been a hate crime against “nerds” — i.e.,
students whose intelligence, academic abilities and/or talents are
strong, but whose social skills are weak — but based on what’s been
reported so far I don’t think we can distinguish whether it was an act
of hate toward a group, or merely the primitive and ugly part of human
nature that can’t resist the impulse to prey on the weak.
Please let’s not trivialize the sadism and evil involved in
cyberbullying. Phoebe Prince, Megan Meier, several other gay suicides
in the past few weeks — these incidents are piling up so fast it’s
becoming difficult to keep up. Minimizing the nature of the act only
plays into the hands of the perpetrators and makes their lawyers’ jobs
too easy.
Recommended by 70 Readers
.13.Sue AtlantaSeptember 30th, 20102:49 pm
Use the correct word: This was not a ‘prank.’ This was a grotesque
invasion of privacy. Why exempt the perps from punishment when every
one else is subject to ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’? They
deserve some prison time.
Do any of their defenders think that their act would have been just
fine if they had targeted a strong, stable heterosexual student? Wrong
is wrong. Would that their parents had taught them as much.
Recommended by 36 Readers
.14.Tish Houston, TXSeptember 30th, 20102:49 pm
I had just read the article about the young man jumping from the
bridge. Tragic in every way imaginable. As a teacher, I just dealt
with a young man who confided in me that he was being bullied by
another student. It struck a cord in me and just made me want to
snatch up the bully and shake him. This is a week after an 8th grader
committed suicide in our district because of bullying. Here I was
dealing with 4th graders. When you are raising the bully I do believe
you need to understand the severity of your child’s actions. It’s no
longer that “good ole boy fun” that people try to relate to. No, this
is down right mean and hateful torment of other children. Talk to your
children! Spare not the rod…if you love them you won’t.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.15.Lindsey Williamsburg, VASeptember 30th, 20102:49 pm
Let’s take the opportunity in this tragedy to use the internet for
good:
I think we don’t realize, in an increasingly gay-accepting society,
how hard it still is for GLBT youth.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.16.Andrea
MexicoSeptember 30th, 20102:49 pm
This comes after a string of recent suicides by teenagers as a result
of anti-gay bullying. Columnist Dan Savage has recently begun a
YouTube campaign called It Gets Better (reported both in his own
column and here in the NYTimes), asking adults who were the victims of
anti-gay bullying in middle school and high school to upload videos
talking about the fact that it does, indeed, get better. Too little,
too late for Tyler Clementi (and it doesn’t even touch on the invasion
of privacy issues), but hopefully it can help some kids…
Recommended by 17 Readers
.17.LK Houston, TXSeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
From a legal perspective (sorry I’m an attorney) it seems like an
awfully big logical leap from the note Clementi left to the assumption
that his suicide was the direct result of the actions of Ravi and Wei.
Clementi never said that in his suicide “note” and as another poster
said, it’s very unlikely that this one incident drove him to suicide.
What is far more likely is that he was already a very troubled young
man and at worst, this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. If
it hadn’t been this it would have been something else.
That said, it does not make what Ravi and Wei did ok. Quite to the
contrary it was cruel and immature. However, before we ruin two more
lives and send them to jail, stop and think about all the dumb things
you did in college. Although I never did anything hurtful to others, I
certainly did stuff that was technically illegal (underage drinking
anyone?) and which certainly could have gotten me sent to jail. My
husband and I have talked many times about how horrible it would have
been to be young and stupid in the age of the cell phone camera. For
the record, I was an A student who never once got in trouble either
with the law or the university but I am not going to be arrogant
enough to say I never did anything I regret.
Further, the accusation that this was a hate crime is far fetched at
best. Ravi’s comment that his roommate was “making out with a dude”
was simply an observation of what was occurring and the article says
that Mr. Clementi’s facebook post was a “favorite quote.” As for an
invasion of privacy, given that it was a shared room and Mr. Clementi
probably knew of Ravi’s webcam, it’s going to be awfully hard for the
prosecution to argue that Mr. Clementi had any expectation of privacy.
How any of this adds up to a hate crime is beyond me. Immature,
hurtful and stupid definitely. Criminal no.
Recommended by 17 Readers
.18.DVS Seattle, WASeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
Absolutely heartbreaking – in addition to hopefully doing all that we
can to teach our children respect, civility and compassion before they
head off to college, we need to be the parents that our children need
to avoid the devastating loneliness that leads someone to commit
suicide when victimized in this way.
We need to be the safe haven for our children (including our gay
children) so that they know they have somewhere to turn when treated
horribly by others.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.19.DH Boston, MASeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
I think that, alongside their project teaching civility, Rutgers and
other colleges need to have a project to discourage and punish
pranksters. The two seem to go hand in hand anyway, but some kids
really need a serious deterrent from playing pranks, and I’m afraid a
mere lecture on civility won’t do it. Especially with technology
magnifying the effect and audience of pranks, this issue needs to be
taken seriously and punished just like any other civil misconduct. Not
everybody finds it funny, it can lead to tragic ends, and nobody wants
to be on the receiving end anyway – so why is this stupidity being
allowed and ignored?
Recommended by 2 Readers Report as Inappropriate
.20.Dlmoro PhiladelphiaSeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
This is what now constitutes a college prank? Sure, I did stupid stuff
to myself and others in college, but never anything that was broadcast
to the entire world. My heart breaks for the Tyler’s parents. As for
the parents of the other two, whether or not those young adults are
charged with the crime, their parents should be sent to some type of
parenting class if they still have kids at home. How can you raise a
child to be so callous and hateful? How can you raise a child that
finds someone else’s pain the source of their amusement?
Recommended by 11 Readers
.21.Sara IowaSeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
I don’t think this was ever intended to be just a ‘prank’. I hope they
face punishment for their actions, either through our (awful) justice
system, or through the university.
Such a shame. And for what? A few giggles from homophobic jerks that
perpetuate a cycle of abuse and hate in our country. Ravi and Wei’s
parents should be ashamed of their children. I find the two
disgusting, that they could so carelessly degrade and mock another
person.
Recommended by 14 Readers
22.Randy ChicagoSeptember 30th, 20102:50 pm
You have to wonder how this young man was raised to think that the
solution to this was suicide. Parents are so quick to instill SEXCRIME
thoughts in their children. As someone who has gone through being
outed and bullied, I feel for the young man. But suicide? Seriously?
What was he taught by his parents? and I don’t blame the two
pranksters. Because that is what it was. A prank. Not a hate crime.
Recommended by 7 Readers
23.Bernadette
Austin, TX September 30th, 20102:51 pm
We give these kids the amazing tool that is the internet and then we
don’t give them any instructions on how to use it. It’d be like
putting a teenager in the driver’s seat of an 18 wheeler and then
putting them out on the highway. We’ve got to teach them how to drive
and not just assume they know the rules of the road. This is indeed a
terrible tragedy but I don’t really think the 18 year olds are to
blame. Sure, they might have known better but I truly believe at that
age, they couldn’t have any idea of the magnitude of their airing of
that video. It’s a concept that is somewhat unfathomable to a child
that young.
http://www.slowfamilyliving.com
http://www.bernadettenoll.wordpress.com
Recommended by 5
.24.Nicole Alabama September 30th, 2010
2:51 pmThank you for your thoughful comments on the other victims of
this tragedy.
No, it wasn’t a prank. Even if the young gentleman hadn’t killed
himself, it wouldn’t be a prank. Calling it a “prank” is just hiding
the truth: it was an act deliberately committed with the intent to
cause harm to another.
Recommended by 18 Readers
25.Jennifer
Anywhere
September 30th, 2010 2:51 pm
Do they deserve jail time? Yes, I think so. Imagine that someone
sneaked a camera into your bedroom, videotaped your private moments,
and then sent out an email so everyone and anyone could view it on the
internet. Would you think it was a “joke”?
The fact that this young man was, by all accounts, in the closet,
makes it much, much worse.
They are not guilty of murder, but they are certainly guilty of a
gross invasion of privacy.
26.VHUSASeptember 30th, 20102:51 pm
Yes, parents need to teach their children about the use and abuse of
new technology. Parents also need to teach themselves to be accepting
of the possibility that their child might be gay. Apparently,
Clementi’s parents did not know that he was. Did Clementi kill himself
partly out of fear and shame of their finding out? Sad story all
around. My heart goes out to the family.
Recommended by 8 Readers
27.CloudSan Diego, CASeptember 30th, 20102:51 pm
Anonymous #8- by that advice, I’d never have sex with my husband
again, because I certainly don’t want that broadcast over the
internet. We should be able to expect privacy in our own bedrooms.
What a tragic event.
I hope to raise children who would never do something so cruel. But I
guess I have to accept as well that it is not all in my hands. My
heart hurts for all of the parents involved, but especially for the
parents of Mr. Clementi.
Recommended by 8 Readers
28.AnonymousNew YorkSeptember 30th, 20102:51 pm
Kids don’t think about consequences, they just think about what’s cool
and funny. Because parents don’t have time to teach them, to make it
worse, no one allows to punish or discipline kids any more. So how can
we tell our kids they are not watching the right programs on the TV or
Internet and stop doing stupid stuff? Make an example by throwing the
2 pranksters off GWB, Maybe…….
Recommended by 0 Readers
29.JenSan FranciscoSeptember 30th, 20102:51 pm
#2, EKA, how can excuse the two kid’s behavior by “what ifs?” Granted,
this young man was obviously troubled, but no one, NO ONE deserves to
be treated as he was. Ravi and Wei’s actions were done with malice and
forethought (after the first recording episode). It is not a prank
when you continue to harrass and malign. What if’s won’t fix what they
did or bring him back. He still killed himself, and they were a
contributing factor.
There is a difference between pulling a prank and harrassing someone.
A prank is something you pull on a friend, whom you know will take it
well (like spiking their drink with salt). Harrassment is done with
malice to someone you don’t like, which is clearly what these two were
doing. They deserve to have the book thrown at them.
Recommended by 18 Readers
30.MichChicagoSeptember 30th, 20102:52 pm
It’s a nice thought Anonymous, but you’re basically telling your kids
they can never have an intimate moment, ever, in their entire life.
That in and of itself flies against the right to privacy that we
supposedly hold dear in society.
These fights are not over. This wasn’t a case of “gee, we thought
everyone wanted a sex tape out there” this was clearly to mock, not
simply embarass, but denigrate the students involved.
Will the receive jail? Probably not and maybe it isn’t warranted.
Perhaps they should receive expulsion, or community service though.
Some kind of consequence needs to follow these actions, or they will
continue to do this type of thing in varying degrees again & again.
And simply because someone might not die next time, does not make
their behavior less abhorrent.
Recommended by 4 Readers
31.genmedNew YorkSeptember 30th, 20102:52 pm
You baby-boomers really do think you are the most important people in
this country. This is a story about the tragic loss of life of a young
man in his prime, and we shouldn’t be empathizing with the parents of
the two bullies. Instead of saying how horrible this story is, you
turn the story on to yourselves– “did I do enough to make sure my kids
aren’t bullies? how must their parents feel?” Stop it and let the
younger generation grow up already and start taking responsibility for
themseves.
Recommended by 17 Readers
32.SusanEastern WASeptember 30th, 20102:53 pm
I read this shattering story this morning, and I am at a loss how
anyone could do this so casually and callously. It defies all reason
or civility. And how can one ever do penance for such a thing?
For Tyler’s parents, my heart pours out to you. I don’t have any idea
how you are going to deal with this most terrible of family disasters,
the loss of such a precious and promising young son. But if there is
any way I and others can help with whatever you find to do to get
yourselves through, please let us know, perhaps through this space.
I can’t get “I’ll Never Fall in Love Again” out of my head. And I will
never hear that lighthearted song the same way again. Tyler will never
fall in love again, and it’s a tragedy.
I hope many, many parents, counselors, teachers, and schools use this
case as an example of how powerful and dangerous new technology can
be. Once something is out there in cyberspace, you can never take it
back. Never.
I want to reach out to all my son’s friends from his first year at
college. I realize how lucky we are that he had the good fortune to
fall in with a kind, compassionate crowd. I feel like this incident is
going to change many lives, and I hope most are for the better.
Recommended by 7 Readers
33.lauranyt99nycSeptember 30th, 20103:57 pm
Here’s what I don’t get. There were more than 48 hours (I think)
between the first incident (videochat, twitter, etc.) and the second
attempted video/twitter that said it’s happening again. And in between
it seems that Tyler was reaching out for help. Obviously MANY people –
students, RAs, Rutgers staff, friends – knew what was happening. Why
didn’t someone act proactively and reach out to Tyler to support him.
It would have been easy to figure out that that’s what he needed –
some help, some support and friendship, someone to help him put this
horrible experience in perspective? No one did that, it seems. WHY
NOT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH EVERYONE??
Recommended by 21 Readers
34.Katie S.New York, NYSeptember 30th, 20103:57 pm
I was also deeply saddened when learning the details of this latest
cyber-bullying tragedy. You make a great point – we need to think
about the parents, as bullying in all forms continues to be a very
real concern for families everywhere. In fact, more than 64% of teens
online admit they engage in behavior they wouldn’t want their parents
to know about. Parents today need to be on the look-out for signs
their children are being cyber-bullied, as well as feel equipped to
start a conversation with their kids about how to stay safe online.
There are resources available to help parents with these
conversations. In light of Tyler’s death, Caron Treatment Centers has
compiled information on signs that your kid is being cyber-bullied and
how to keep kids safe online. If you’re interested, please read here:
http://caronchitchat.org….
It’s unfortunate that it took another tragedy to remind us to educate
children about bullying. Hopefully we can work together to prevent
this from ever happening again.
Many thanks,
Katie S., Caron Treatment Centers
@carontreatment
Recommended by 1 Reader
35.HIGHLIGHT (what’s this?) SusanEastern WASeptember 30th, 20103:57 pm
Lisa: This is what I always told my primary students: It’s not funny
unless EVERYONE involved thinks it’s funny. It’s simple but true.
One more thing these guys didn’t learn in kindergarten.
Recommended by 19 Readers
36.HIGHLIGHT (what’s this?) In AweSan Francisco, CASeptember 30th,
20103:58 pm
And what about the other man in the video with Tyler? Is he okay?
Hopefully he can also try and get some justice for this…
Recommended by 17 Readers
37.ajf-tmfBrooklyn, NYSeptember 30th, 20103:58 pm
This so tragic, but calling it a mere prank is letting them off the
hook. A prank is something you do at camp as a kid, like freezing a
bra or throwing water balloons at someone. Filming a sex act and
broadcasting it to your peers is at the very least unusually cruel, I
lean more toward thinking it is criminal. You can say these kids are
just stupid, but they’re not. There are lots of people who do stupid
things who are not also cruel.
www.themotherhoodfile.blogspot.com
Recommended by 15 Readers
38.LululimeSaskatchewan, CanadaSeptember 30th, 20103:58 pm
There should be some kind of consequences for the actions of these two
students. Whether gay or heterosexual, no one deserves to have a
private moment broadcast to the public without their consent, and you
can’t tell me that Tyler shouldn’t have had an expectation of privacy
simply because the act took place in a shared dorm room and he knew
his roommate had the ability to record it.
In British Columbia, a young girl was raped at a rave party and a 16
year old boy not only photographed the act but posted those images on
the internet. http://www.cbc.ca… He is now facing child pornography
charges, and he should be.
Regardless of the intent of either the two college students or this 16
year old youth, the fact is that the damage has been done. Some are
arguing that it doesn’t make sense to ruin two more lives but I would
argue that they brought this upon themselves when they chose their
actions. In both cases, it’s infuriating that we should be expected to
show consideration for the impact any consequences will have on their
futures when they clearly showed no consideration whatsoever for how
their actions would impact their targets.
Everyone makes mistakes in life – some more dire than others – but
mistakes also have consequences. There NEEDS to be consequences.
Recommended by 16 Readers
39.tecumsehquincy, illinoisSeptember 30th, 20103:58 pm
One of the ironies of this case is that the miscreants end up being
hung on their own petard. The vastness and power of the internet which
caused such horror in the soul of Tyler Clementi when he realized his
sex act was floating out in cyberspace (though I doubt few people ever
viewed it or cared) this power has been unleashed a million fold upon
Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei and unfortunately perhaps their families.
They are the ones wearing the scarlet letters and their lives will
forever be altered regardless if any jail time comes their way. In
fact the vast exposure given this case makes jail time more likely.
Recommended by 7 Readers
40.momoftwo1charlotteSeptember 30th, 20103:59 pm
As a parent this incident shakes me to the core. I hope by the time my
kids are old enough to be on their own they understand the
consequences of their actions and realize the hurt they can cause
others. Also, I want them to understand that no matter hopeless they
are feeling there is light at the end of the tunnel and they should
seek help. I feel awful for the parents of all parties concerned –
none would have expected this when they sent their kids off to
college.
Recommended by 4 Readers
41.danachicagoSeptember 30th, 20103:59 pm
At the Catholic school where I teach we have a whole behavior plan
that is called Be Christian, Be Respectful, Be Responsible…and yet, in
the 6th grade, the boys often put their hand on another boys shoulder
and say they are taking their gay temperature. What must that feel
like for a boy who may just be starting to figure himself out and find
he is not just like all the other boys??? Nothing is done about this
even though it has been brought to the attention of the principal
several times. Correct me, but I don’t think that behavior is
Christian, Respectful OR Responsible, I think it’s bullying of the
most subtle, insidious kind. What will that lead to if not
addressed????
Recommended by 11 Readers
42.Little Miss MeEdison, NJSeptember 30th, 20104:00 pm
I was discussing this event with a coworker who made a comment that
Wei and Ravi were just kids playing a prank. Kids? Are they over 18?
My parents impressed on me my whole life that the day I turned 18, I
was an adult. We (as parents and as a society) need to stop coddling
young adults. These two COLLEGE STUDENTS made a conscious decision to
invade Mr. Clementi’s privacy and the privacy of the other young man
involved. And it’s been my experience in life that a “prank” is only
fun if it is a joke among friends and there is no real injury. Here,
Mr. Clementi was seriously wounded by this action which was taken
because his roommate (clearly not a friend) felt – what,
inconvenienced? threatened?
I don’t think there will be any justice served for the Clementi
family. I am so sorry for their loss.
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
43.bruceben9wisconsin USASeptember 30th, 20104:21 pm
i could see this criminal act having a degree of depraved
indifference. cyberbullying is something just about everyone in the US
is aware of. especially young college age folks that use the internet.
suicides in these types of instances are not rare. they should have
known that even if a long shot, this type of behavior could possibly
lead to a very bad end. charge them w/ depraved indifference. 10 to 12
yrs.
Recommended by 4 Readers
44.Billie CriswellDelawareSeptember 30th, 20104:22 pm
This is a tragedy of unspeakable measure. It should sadden people on
several levels.
It is clear that there is a marked acceptance toward a homophobic
attitude that these young adults embraced and then exploited to the
detriment of Tyler, who was a talented young man just coming into his
sexuality and in need of privacy. It is an easy argument to say that
the students responsible for streaming the webcam of Tyler could “not
have known” that he would commit suicide, but I have little sympathy
for that argument. For had those two students taken any time to
consider what they would do if someone victimized THEM that way,
perhaps they would have reconsidered their disgusting behavior.
Their act was malicious, and calloused–without thought or regard for
human life. They were adult bullies. It’s not a wonder that our
children are being bullied to death–adults are engaging in the exact
same behavior, and then, their adult peers condone their behavior by
saying that they shouldn’t serve jail time. I personally believe that
they have to make an example of these two students who did this.
They were intolerant of Tyler’s right to be free and unbothered in his
sexuality. They humiliated him to a vast audience. Where has society
failed so badly that adults of just 18 think it’s okay to engage in
such invasive, cruel behavior?
There is a missing link somewhere between the Constitution and society
and it’s tolerance for one another in our freedoms, though, it can be
taught. But you cannot teach it if you don’t believe it. The only
intolerance that I have is for intolerance, and for that reason, I
think these people should be charged with a hate crime. Because Tyler
Clementi was a victim.
Recommended by 5 Readers
45.sipaNYCSeptember 30th, 20104:22 pm
Being ‘only’ 18 years is no excuse. In this country we sent 18 year
olds to war to kill or be killed in faraway countries. We execute 18
year olds if we find their crimes to be so heinous as to be beyond
redemption.
18 is more than old enough to know right from wrong and what these 18
year olds did was so so wrong
Recommended by 11 Readers
46.sql yodamadison, wiSeptember 30th, 20104:31 pm
I guess it was inevitable when that part of the story broke that
people would be focusing on the gay part. That is entirely beside the
point. Two student’s videotaped another in a sexual encounter without
his consent and distributed it.
If someone had taped and distributed your daughter changing in the
mall – talking to EKA and others – the person doing the taping would
still be guilty of a crime with a legal maximum punishment of five
years in prison. The fact that anyone would support leniency for these
two sexual criminals blows my mind.
Of course they deserve five years in prison.
Recommended by 12 Readers
47.LoisSunnyside, QueensSeptember 30th, 20104:39 pm
To In Awe — If everyone thinks its funny, it may STILL NOT BE FUNNY.
Recommended by 6 Readers
48.nee breslinnew mexicoSeptember 30th, 20104:53 pm
Ravi and Wei are vile creatures that should be charged with a hate
crime, period.
Teaching civlity shouldn’t start in college, it should start in the
crib. As should respect for fellow humans and all beings.
What the heck is wrong with parents that don’t teach their kids basic
humanity. If they did teach them, why didn’t it stick.
Vile creatures.
Recommended by 4 Readers
49.MarcLittle Rock, ArSeptember 30th, 20104:53 pm
This issue hits me hard because I’ve dealt with bully and I’ve dealt
with being suicidal. We can no longer tolerate a society that allows
for a teenager to be so ashamed of who he is and so humiliated that he
takes his own life. We all need to do more: http://bipolarrealities.wordpress.com…/
Recommended by 2 Readers
50.VHUSASeptember 30th, 20104:53 pm#36 – you make an excellent point –
what about the other man in the video? How must he be feeling, having
just lost his lover to suicide, and having his sexual experience
broadcast online as well? I hope he one day finds the strength to do
what Clementi could not – fight back and shame all those who took
part, directly or indirectly, in his and Clementi’s victimization. But
if he remains too traumatized to ever do so, no one could blame him.
Recommended by 6 Readers
51.KarenBrooklynSeptember 30th, 20105:28 pm
Bernadette, #23, I have to disagree. Calling an 18 year old who is
ready to begin living on his own “a child” who is too innocent to
understand the implications of his choices is denial, pure and simple.
And blaming it on ignorance of internet etiquette–seriously? This kid
has grown up in a world where Facebook has always existed. He knew how
to turn on his webcam from a different building. He’s hardly a recent
immigrant to the world of the internet. The real problem is that no
one ever taught him how to have respect for his fellow human beings.
In fact, it sounds like someone has been teaching him– whether
explicitly or not– that it is ok to use and disrespect other people
for his own amusement and aggrandizement. He would surely have found a
way to be a gay-bashing bully even without the internet.
Recommended by 12 Readers
52.Nicole K.Santa Rosa, CaliforniaSeptember 30th, 20105:28 pm
There are no harmless pranks because their focus is humiliation of
another person. Hatred of the individual or what they represent is the
stimulus for such pranks. In this case, because he is gay and in the
closet they set out to humiliate him. This is clear and makes it a
crime of hate. Citing the suffering of their families and the fact
that they are at a university is a red herring meant to distract us
from their deed.
Recommended by 5 Readers
53.RebeccaSuburban NJSeptember 30th, 20105:31 pmAfter reading the
posts attributed to Tyler Clementi on a website, it’s tough to align
the tenor of what he wrote with jumping off the GWB. Apparently, he
had been taking steps to hold Ravi responsible, and he was going to
file a room change request. Doesn’t sound like someone desperate or
despondent.
Recommended by 2 Readers
54.Tom NewmanNew Brunswick, New JerseySeptember 30th, 20105:41 pmJust
to be clear- there was not a memorial vigil on campus last night. The
LGBTQ group here at Rutgers held a die-in to get safe spaces for LGBTQ
students (a die-in is a protest in which protesters pretend to be dead
by lying on the ground and covering themselves with signs), and, from
what I could tell, used the heightened public awareness caused by the
recent death of Tyler Clementi as a means of drawing more attention to
themselves. As a Rutgers student who was deeply saddened by the recent
events, I went to the rally in hopes that there would be some evidence
of remembrance for Mr. Clementi, but was instead greatly disturbed by
what appeared to be the manipulation of the young man’s death for
political gains.
There is, however, a memorial scheduled for Friday, in front of Brower
Commons on the College Avenue campus, if anyone is interested in
going.
That being said, I do feel as though this article speaks with a
refreshing amount of compassion. While I am very angry that the
accused would act as they did (if they did – I do not wish to jump to
conclusions), I also pity them for their lack of discretion in the
matter. I have read many discussion groups where people are
bloodthirstily calling for extreme punishment of the accused, and I do
not feel as though this is a good reaction. Rather than responding
with more aggression, I feel as though we should at least be
compassionate in our treatment of the accused, so that they may learn
from their grave wrongdoings. Responding with more aggression only
fuels the ignorance that leads to these tragic occurrences in the
first place. In grieving instead of protesting, and in presenting the
accused with this grief rather than with hatred, we can perhaps allow
there to be some progress made in the matter – for Mr. Clementi’s
death was, after all, evidence of a profound lack of compassion that
exists in our society.
Recommended by 6 Readers
55.redd141Northern New JerseySeptember 30th, 20107:12 pm
Who are you kidding here? Rutgers isn’t a feel good, progressive
school. They dont attract the cream of the intelligent empathetic
crop. Evidentally the bullying, hazing, drinking and lack of tolerance
for anyone other than a hard drinking frat boy was so prevalent the
University was struggling to put in place “safe” programs for students
in groups considered to be fringe groups. By no means was this a prank
or an accident and any way you measure the “excuse” Ravi and Wei
should not only be jailed but considered mentally ill for the cruelty
and harm they caused Tyler. Ihope they are forced to watch their
parents’ agony that this is what their child really is. I bet they
behaved that way all through their Jersey high school years too – the
pattern is all to familiar. What they interfered with was none of
their business. They should get more than five years, and as always,
one can only hope someone will do to them what they have done….one
thousandfold.
Recommended by 5 Readers
56.RichardNew York NYSeptember 30th, 20107:13 pm
Contrary to what some commenters are saying, even if poor Tyler had
other issues, that does not excuse or mitigate what these two morons
did to him. By deliberately injuring him they took the risk of all the
consequences. To my mind Tyler is, tragically, another Matthew
Shepard.
Recommended by 6 Readers
57.Chana Jenny WeisbergJerusalemSeptember 30th, 20107:13 pm
I had turned off my computer for the night, but turned it back on
because I am so deeply upset by this story that I just heard for the
first time on motherlode.
How phenomenally tragic. At the very least, these people should be
thrown out of college. And hopefully there will be significant jail
time as well. How horrifically cruel.
How is it that these bright, young people came to totally lose their
humanity and decency?
www.JewishMom.com
Recommended by 4 Readers
58.MichChicagoSeptember 30th, 20107:13 pm
Prank: setting a roommate’s alarm ahead so they think they’re late for
class. Embarrassing perhaps, but you get over it.
Vicious: Setting a rooommate’s alarm back so they miss an important
exam. Warrants probation at the very least.
Depraved: Taping a roommates sexual exploits and blasting them across
the campus. Warrants expulsion at the very least.
Recommended by 23 Readers
59.JenniferAnywhereSeptember 30th, 20107:13 pm
Mr. Clementi probably knew of Ravi’s webcam, it’s going to be awfully
hard for the prosecution to argue that Mr. Clementi had any
expectation of privacy. How any of this adds up to a hate crime is
beyond me. Immature, hurtful and stupid definitely. Criminal no.+++++++
+++
I’ll admit that I’m not a lawyer, but it seems to me that in your own
bedroom with a door closed you certainly should have an expectation of
privacy. My husband has a camera phone. Does that mean that I have no
expectation of privacy the next time I take a shower?
Recommended by 4 Readers
60.SallyTXSeptember 30th, 20107:14 pmWhat these two did was a crime.
Their intent was to be cruel. I think a crime of this nature does
deserve imprisonment.
They are old enough to be held responsible for their despicable
behavior.
Recommended by 6 Readers
61.HMVAORSeptember 30th, 20107:14 pmHeartbreaking and Sad; this poor
young man was a victim of a crime. There is no joke in something like
this.
I sometimes shudder to think how de-sensitized we have become at the
hands of technology. I wonder how our society will look in another 20
years?
Recommended by 2 Readers
62.CHBrooklynSeptember 30th, 20107:14 pmThere isn’t enough attention
being paid to the fact that this was not only a heartless invasion of
privacy, it was also an outing. Outing gay people has a long and
abusive history and is usually intended to humiliate, shame, censure,
and cause harm to a gay person. Outing has killed before and will kill
again as long as homophobia is tolerated and queer people are treated
as second class citizens.
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
63.gbWashington, DCSeptember 30th, 20107:31 pmA prank? Sounds more
like sexual assault to me, digitized. And while there is the extra
(hate) layer because of the genders involved, I would see it that way
either way. There is no excuse to so horrifically invade that most
private event. No, it wasn’t murder, not physically. But what they did
is a kind of sexual assault, to my mind, given the utter lack of
consent. And absolutely a gross violation of privacy.
Recommended by 2 Readers
64.Steve I AmCentennial, ColoradoSeptember 30th, 20107:35 pm
As a former Prosecutor, I have to disagree with LK, (#17). While what
Ravi, and Wei, are alleged to have done was not only immature and
stupid, but it was also a crime. According to news reports I have
read, it is a crime under New Jersey law to videotape a person engaged
in sexual activity, and to broadcast that videotape on the internet,
without that person’s consent. Ravi and Wei should be prosecuted under
those statutes. Regardless of Ravi and Wei’s intent, Tyler Clementi’s
suicide was a foreseeable consequence of their actions, therefore, if
they are convicted, I think the People of the State of New Jersey
would be justified in seeking the maximum – 5 year – sentence against
each of them.
Recommended by 15 Readers
65.AJMidwestOctober 1st, 201010:42 am
As a parent, I am focused less on what those idiots did then what the
reaction to it was. I wouldn ‘t want my children to act in such a
cruel manner obviously but the lesson that I feel more compelled to
impart is that no matter what someone says about you, no matter how
embarrased or humiliated you feel, there is a way through this. Though
some people will do evil, there are many out there who want to help
you and will support you and do good. Seek them out. The evil doers
will hopefully get their punishment but it is more important for you
to realize that nothing that anyone does or say can take away from all
that is fundamentally good about you and if you can’t see that, get
help right away. You will, in the end be able to move on…don’t ever
ever forget that.
Recommended by 1 Reader
66.steveeast coastOctober 1st, 201010:42 am
People have commented on teaching and learning civility. In most
cases, this solves the problem. Occasionally, the law of the jungle
rules. I’m an alumnus of a prototypical 1950s Catskills summer sleep-
away camp. At my camp, bullying and being bullied was a way of life,
but the cycle could be broken by growing a thicker skin and by
informing the offender that what he was doing was wrong. Then again, I
was very confident and big for my age. However, I couldn’t stop the
physical abuse I received from a counselor ten years my senior. A
letter to grandpa, an alumnus of the Bugs and Meyer Mob, brought a
visit from “Uncle Moe” and “Uncle Louie”. The counselor quit his job.
Many years later, I found out they nearly killed him. I would like to
think today’s youngsters don’t live in the jungle. It’s a bad place.
Recommended by 0 Readers
67.KBNY, NYOctober 1st, 201010:43 am
I don’t see how what the roommate and his friend did counts as a hate
crime. Is it a hate crime because they targeted him because he was
gay? I have no doubt the video was sent because he was gay. And this
was definitely a lot more than a prank – this was cruel and heartless.
This was not funny, this was not something anyone would’ve found
amusing. They should be punished for what they did, because they were
certainly accessories to a young man’s death.
At the same time, I am certain that Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei had no clue
that their actions would lead to Mr. Clementi’s death. I also bet that
this webcam leak, or whatever it specifically was, was the straw that
broke the camel’s back. I am sure other things were going on in his
life, and this just did it. Because I am sure if he were well-
ahjusted, this would not have lead to suicide.
Also, why would Ms. Wei be charged as well? Mr. Ravi sent the video.
Recommended by 0 Readers
68.I’m surrounded by…Somerset Co., NJOctober 1st, 201010:43 amAs folks
have posted, one NEVER knows how one’s actions will be perceived or
taken.
The cavalier attitude toward Tyler by the two perpetrators and the
silent co-conspirators is just catastrophic. It DOES have implications
for our culture and society’s future!
This terrible event (too important to be called an ‘incident’) is an
extreme example of daily insensitivities that we all do/don’t do…not
smiling or saying thank you when someone holds the door, intentionally
averting gaze for no other reason than it’s inconvenient, and so on.
Rudeness on the road, poor turntaking skills (think merge for a major
tunnel entrance), and so on.
And while one never thinks that one’s own kids can do something like
this to another human, it’s surely true that the two perps are from
homes that would likely pass most of our ‘quality tests.’
Yet, here it is nonetheless. Don’t know what the answer is…very
sorrowful.
Recommended by 0 Readers
69.sjmPAOctober 1st, 201010:43 amThere are posts about one life ruined
and lets not ruin two more. Sorry no. The two perpetrators deserve to
have their lives ruined. At the very least, I hope they are expelled
from school and have charges brought against them.
Recommended by 5 Readers
70.jzzy55New EnglandOctober 1st, 201010:43 am
Throw the book at them. If they did the crime, they need to do the
time.
I see far too many “nice” kids who do not nice things getting away
with it because their affluent, connected parents are able to work the
system. In my community a troubled young man (of age to be prosecuted
AS AN ADULT) was vandalizing cars on and off for months, culminating
in a late-night spree involving several DOZEN damaged cars. Is he in
jail? Hell no. He’s at a high-priced rehab-boot-camp place so his
expensive lawyer can make the case in court that he’s done his time
and is a changed kid with a new attitude (we can hope, but unlikely).
This guy is dangerous and needs to do the time he has coming to him. I
don’t want him in the high school with MY kid and his friends, who ARE
nice kids.
The two who committed this felony can and should be charged, tried and
sentenced if found guilty.
And this sure does remind me of the Phoebe Hopkins case, which is also
in my locale. Bullying with intent to harm.
Recommended by 1 Reader
71.S. B.NJOctober 1st, 201010:45 am
“Seems the students got their idea from the movie MASH…”
Hmmm,I doubt that the average 18 year old even knows there was a movie
called MASH. If they know MASH at all, it’s from the TV show, which
may still be showing in reruns on cable.
Some articles have suggested the idea came from a much more recent
source: one of the American Pie movies.
Recommended by 0 Readers
motherlodelisa belkinOctober 1st, 201010:45 am
Right. Today’s teens don’t know MASH. But back when I was in college
the movie (and certainly the TV show) were still fairly recent… and
those are the students I was talking about. American Pie is the latest
incarnation of the same theme..72.Will McClainLos Angeles, CAOctober
1st, 201010:45 amI’m not sure how to comment on this issue.
What happened to Clementi was not only unfortunate it was avoidable.
That being said, the person who had the most power to avoid what
happened was Clementi himself. I don’t want to sound callous and I
don’t believe suicide is something that someone simple “does.”
The two students who recorded and broadcast him aren’t monsters.
They’re 18 year-olds. It would do us all a lot of good to realise
that. We can condemn their decisions, we can go use this story as a
lesson to our friends, family, and neighbors. We can argue that what
they did was criminal. But freshman in college, hell middle-aged
members of society, do incredibly stupid, callous, and thoughtless
things. It doesn’t turn them into monsters. The two of them will never
forget what happened and they’ll probably put more blame on themselves
than we can imagine. Only if they don’t will they become anything
closer to monsters.
We expect a certain amount of civility and a certain amount of reason
from the members of our society, and here it was lacking. But it’s
lacking just about everywhere – internet or no internet. Bedroom
antics and social oddities make headline news, twitter feeds, water-
cooler gossip, and facebook share buttons all the time. Usually
they’re about celebrities, politicians, athletes, and the like. We
expect these individuals to have the hides of a Rhino – if they didn’t
they’d fall apart. Only they do fall apart. Everyone falls apart at a
tipping point.
I want to have written this comment about how horrible these two
students were and how talented this poor student was, but I can’t
bring myself to. Not because I don’t feel for him, his parents, and
the whole community. Only because this could have happened at any
college, any university, any office, any city-block, any anything all
over the Western world. You can decide that just means humanity is
full of monsters. I’m just not ready to make that leap.
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers 73.Nathan’s MomA Playground Near
YouOctober 1st, 201010:45 amIn response to #17, who writes “As for an
invasion of privacy, given that it was a shared room and Mr. Clementi
probably knew of Ravi’s webcam, it’s going to be awfully hard for the
prosecution to argue that Mr. Clementi had any expectation of
privacy.”
While sharing a dorm room is certainly more intimate than living
alone, there does need to be some reasonable expectation of privacy.
For example, a college student should be able to change clothes,
without fear that her roommate was recording it on a webcam for later
broadcast.
Clementi asked Ravi to leave the room, Ravi agreed, and left.
Essentially, Clementi asked for privacy, and Ravi granted it. By
turning on the webcam without Clementi’s knowledge, Ravi violated that
agreement.
Recommended by 7 Readers
74.AMworldOctober 1st, 201010:46 amStop trying to defend the
indefensible. These two ‘kids’ are directly responsible for Tyler
Clementi’s death. They knew full well what they were doing was an
horrific invasion of privacy. Such people are a blight or a malignant
force whether they’re 18 or 38. Unfortunately they’re never the ones
that commit suicide. How terrible it must have been for that young man
the day he died, how alone he must have felt. I can only hope the ones
responsible get to feel something of that now.
Recommended by 0 Readers
75.LilianaMichiganOctober 1st, 201010:46 am
I cried when I read this story. I cried for the boy who committed
suicide. I cried for the foolish kids who posted the video, I cried
for their parents.
Incredibly unspeakably cruel. Where did this immoral humans grow up- a
sociopathic environment no doubt. May they suffer a thousandfold the
pain they inflicted.
Recommended by 1 Reader
77.Len RIRIOctober 1st, 201011:04 am
Invasion of privacy, death resulting. Criminal endangerment, death
resulting. Reckless endangerment, death resulting. Put the perp on
trial, then properly off to prison.
Let the word go out to all “pranksters” that there are behaviors in a
democratic society that are unacceptable. The emotional torture of
others is one of them.
Recommended by 4 Readers
78.BDNew YorkOctober 1st, 201011:11 amThis entire story is being
driven by latent homophobia. If the film was him with a hot blond it
would be a totally different story. In fact, if he committed suicide
shortly after release of tape of him with a young co-ed people would
say, “at least something good happened for him at the end.”
I applaud Lisa for being brave enough to say that this is something
that happens all the time in dorms. I dont even see how the published
comments were taunting or attacks unless you begin with the premise
that homosexuality is something to hide. Only then in some warped
1980s thinking can you define the published tweets as taunts.
Recommended by 1 Reader
79.AnitanjOctober 1st, 20102:39 pm
Any parents on this planet won’t want their kid’s life to be ruined.
My sympathies to Tyler’s family..
If you are parent, you will understand the misery for Tyler’s parents
as well as Ravi’s and Molly’s parents. Their life has changed for
forever.
My sympathy goes to all of them.
All of us should work towards “damage control”, how this can be
avoided in future? How to teach your kids not to cross boundaries,
which have virtually disappeared due to new technologies? Regarding
Ravi and Molly, I think that they should be punished, but not so much
that we will ruin 2 more lives. That will be equally cruel.
Recommended by 0 Readers
80.imatestcaserural oregonOctober 1st, 20102:39 pm
Voyeurism is a crime.
Invasion of privacy is a crime.
These things are not pranks. They are not jokes. They are crimes.
I hope no one will back away from prosecution because the defendants
have well-off families and were admitted to a prestigious university.
Recommended by 2 Readers
81.WackyDadFairfax, VAOctober 1st, 20102:40 pm
After reading this article, I have to wonder exactly what the
“Intimate moment” was that Ravi captured from the web cam. Sure, if it
involved nudity or sex, broadcasting it over the internet was a
serious sex crime and the 2 should be prosecuted and punished
accordingly. However, if it was just 2 men touching, hugging or
kissing, I don’t think this is too much different from a person that
takes an embarrasing picture of a couple, gay or strait, making out in
a private area and posting it on Facebook. It happens a thousand times
a day and people shrug it off as normal teenage life.
What makes this prank seem like such an act of cruelty has more to do
with the assumption that broadcasting the video was the one, the only
event that was so emotionally damaging to Tyler that he had no better
choice than to commit suicide. Humiliating yes, but no way can this
single incident justify Tyler taking his own life, which in turn, is
much, much more cruel and hateful to not only himself, but his parents
and all who love him than the pranksters who embarrassed him. Suicide
is a very, very bad way to go. Hurts everybody.
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers 82.Barbara JGermanyOctober 1st,
20102:41 pmSome posters both here and on Room for Debate feel that
Ravi and Wei are not entirely to blame for the suicide because
Clementi probably had “issues” that contributed.
Missing from the discussion is the matter that the students who are
shy and quiet (as Clementi was known to be), who are socially insecure
and with few or no friends, who are most likely to be emotionally
fragile, are among the ones most likely to be targeted for bullying or
humiliation. Clementi might have been the target of bullies in high
school as well; his sense of hopelessness and despair might have been
cumulative. That doesn’t give anyone a free pass to treat him as Ravi
and Wei did. When I was a child, the rule was “go pick on someone your
own size.”
My daughter, after completing primary school in a class blessedly free
of bullying, had her first day of lower secondary (grade 5) in a new
school less than three weeks ago. We went out early to the bus stop,
where a mother and son had already arrived. The boy looked barely old
enough to be in this grade and was so shy he never looked at my
daughter or spoke to her. I talked with the mother and found out he
was going to be in my daughter’s class. I’ll call him Peter here.
Fast forward to the Parents’ Evening this past Wednesday, where we sat
in a circle and met the teachers. One father asked if there was any
adult supervision on the (rather small) play area, because his son
had, twice, been surrounded during recess by a group of much older
boys who closed a circle around him and didn’t let him out. This was
Peter’s dad. The next day I mentioned this to my daughter, without
saying the boy’s name. She guessed that it was Peter, because, she
said, he was the only boy in the class who was shy.
My child would not have the spine (and maybe not the level of empathy
either) to stand up to Peter’s tormentors, and it might be unsafe for
her to do so anyway, but I’m trying to convince her of the importance
of seeking out a teacher immediately if she sees this or something
like it happening again. The homeroom teacher seems to take bullying
seriously, so I hope the problem will be dealt with successfully.
I also sympathize with the parents of all three students involved. The
Room for Debate blog focused mainly on the legal, social, and cultural
issues, so I’m glad, Lisa, that you’re presenting the story from a
parent’s perspective. Some of us are the parents of children who are
bullied or will be in the future; some are parents of the current or
future bullies, and some are parents of the children who might enable
the bullies with their support or silence, or preferably be strong
enough to take a stand against the bullying of their classmates. And
many of us could use some guidance on how to provide guidance to our
kids.
Recommended by 1 Reader
83.SqueakyRatProvidence RIOctober 1st, 20102:42 pm
You’re right it isn’t funny in the first place. Nor is it merely
“stupid.” It’s evil.
Recommended by 1 Reader
84.JJNJOctober 1st, 20102:42 pm
This is a good point, Lisa. I think it is important to consider what
the broader social environment was like for both Clementi and Ravi/Wei
rather than just condemning the latter two as monsters–not just
parents, but in the dorms. Ravi/Wei committed a criminal act and
should be punished for it. What struck me was that the reaction to the
first video/tweet was so positive that they apparently planned
another! Who were these people that expressed sympathy for Ravi for
having to live with a gay guy instead of outrage that he had invaded
his roomate’s privacy? As #33 notes–people knew about this and didn’t
support Clementi–this must have affected him. The article Lisa links
to mentioned that the first incident became a topic of gossip in the
dorms; a subsequent article mentions Clementi’s reaction to this
gossip, which was not supportive of him http://www.nytimes.com…
It seems to me that part of what makes bullying/harassment so awful
for victims is that people don’t take it seriously or support the
victim until after a suicide or some awful outcome–only then are
people “shocked, shocked,” that the bully would do something like that–
before that, it’s just a joke, etc. Where was the shock and horror at
Ravi’s actions the first time around? We need to teach kids not only
to not BE bullies, but to not tolerate bullying when it’s happening to
someone else.
Recommended by 3 Readers 85.
TomRutgersOctober 1st, 20102:43 pm
In response to the LK, the attorney.
It is ridiculous to say that the existence of a webcam in a college
dorm constitutes an unspoken understanding of zero privacy between
roommates. Ravi and Wei captured nude images of a third party without
that party’s consent. This is illegal.
Recommended by 3 Readers
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism, Terrorism
30/09/2010
« डॉ उर्मिलेश की सुप्रसिद्ध कविता – वन्दे मातरमPhilip Roth and I »
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/10/02/hindu-hoodlum-dharu-ravi-scandal-update/
Legal Debate Swirls Over Charges in a Student’s Suicide
By WINNIE HU
Published: October 1, 2010
Dozens of Rutgers University students wore black on Friday to remember
Tyler Clementi, a freshman who killed himself after his roommate,
according to prosecutors, secretly streamed over the Internet his
intimate encounter with another man.
Enlarge This Image
Laura Pedrick for The New York Times
A memorial to Tyler Clementi was set up by members of the Phi Delta
Theta fraternity at Rutgers University in New Brunswick.
Cyberbullying and a Student’s Suicide
Does the death of Tyler Clementi, a Rutgers student, argue for tougher
laws against malicious acts online?
But even as students conducted quiet rituals of mourning, a vehement
legal debate swirled over whether prosecutors, who have charged the
roommate and another freshman with invasion of privacy, should — or
would — raise the stakes by also pressing hate-crime charges.
Though bias charges are generally hard to prove, lawyers and civil
rights experts said, New Jersey has one of the toughest state laws on
hate crimes. Its so-called bias intimidation law allows prosecutors to
lodge separate charges and seek greater penalties against anyone who
commits a crime against someone because of the victim’s sexual
orientation. The law does not specify that the crime be violent.
The Middlesex County prosecutor, Bruce J. Kaplan, said Thursday that
his office was considering whether to press hate-crime charges against
Mr. Clementi’s roommate, Dharun Ravi of Plainsboro, N.J., and Molly
Wei of West Windsor, N.J. As of Friday, no additional charges had been
filed and a court hearing date had not been set.
But on talk shows and blogs, people outraged by the suicide of Mr.
Clementi, an accomplished violinist from Ridgewood, N.J., demanded
that the defendants face stiff penalties.
In a statement released through a lawyer, Mr. Clementi’s parents, Jane
and Joe Clementi, said: “We understand that our family’s personal
tragedy presents important legal issues for the country as well as for
us. Regardless of our legal outcomes, our hope is that our family’s
personal tragedy will serve as a call for compassion, empathy and
human dignity.”
On Sept. 19, Mr. Ravi messaged his Twitter followers that he had gone
to Ms. Wei’s dormitory room and activated a webcam in his own room,
showing Mr. Clementi as he was “making out with a dude.” Prosecutors
said the images were streamed live on the Internet.
On Sept. 21, the authorities said, Mr. Ravi tried to stream more video
and invited friends to watch. But Mr. Clementi apparently discovered
the camera and complained to school officials. The next day, he jumped
from the George Washington Bridge.
“It is crystal clear that the motive was to intimidate and harass that
young man based on his sexual orientation, whether actual or
perceived,” said Steven Goldstein, chairman of Garden State Equality,
a gay rights group.
Malcolm Lazin, a former federal prosecutor who is executive director
of Equality Forum, a national gay rights advocacy group, called on
prosecutors to charge the two students with reckless manslaughter.
“Clearly, what they did was premeditated,” Mr. Lazin said. “This was
not a visceral response. This was something that was well thought out,
executed and then put on the worldwide Internet.”
But several lawyers said it was hard to imagine that prosecutors could
make a case for manslaughter, which would require them to show that
Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei foresaw that their actions would lead to a
death.
“I think it would be hard to show that their conduct reached a level
of recklessness that caused Tyler Clementi to commit suicide,” said
Jay V. Surgent, a criminal defense lawyer in Lyndhurst, N.J.
Instead, these lawyers said, it was more likely that prosecutors would
pursue bias charges.
Robert A. Mintz, a criminal defense lawyer in Newark and a former
federal prosecutor, said, “What prosecutors will be looking at is
whether this is a prank that had gone horribly wrong, or whether this
was an orchestrated scheme to intimidate the victim based on his
sexual orientation.”
Mr. Mintz said that prosecutors would likely review the students’ e-
mail and Twitter messages, read any essays or blog entries, and
interview friends about what they might have said. “If there’s an
accumulation of circumstantial evidence, that can be very powerful,”
he said.
If the students are charged and convicted of a hate crime, they could
face up to 10 years in prison, instead of 5 years for the privacy
charge alone. State Senator Shirley K. Turner has proposed legislation
to raise the top sentence for invasion of privacy to 10 years.
Student vigils are planned over the weekend for Mr. Clementi.
Nate Schweber contributed reporting.
.Not Every Tragedy Should Lead to Prison
Updated October 1, 2010, 06:35 PM
Paul Butler, a former federal prosecutor, is an associate dean and the
Carville Dickinson Benson Research Professor of Law at George
Washington University. He is the author of “Let’s Get Free: A Hip-Hop
Theory of Justice.”
We don’t need any new criminal laws. We have more than enough right
now — 4,000 federal crimes, and many times that number of state
crimes. If prosecutors can’t find anything to charge a particular
cyberbully with, that bully has not committed a crime. If simply being
a jerk was a criminal offense, we would need many more prisons than
the hundreds we already have.
A national conversation about civility would be a more effective
tribute to Tyler Clementi than creating more criminal laws. .Suicide
is a tragic response to bullying. It is also a rare response. Of the
millions of children who suffer bullying, few take their own lives.
Bullies “cause” suicides in the same way that a man “causes” the
suicide of a lover he spurns. The criminal law typically does not hold
people responsible for outcomes that are idiosyncratic or
unpredictable.
It is possible to deeply mourn the deaths of Tyler Clementi and Phoebe
Prince, and also to acknowledge that their suicides are evidence of
deeper problems than bullying. In Clementi’s case, societal homophobia
probably played a big role as well. A straight college kid might be
outraged if his roommate broadcast his sexual activity, but for a
closeted gay man, the revelation of his orientation — to the whole
world — might be even more disturbing than the public display of his
genitals. Clementi’s bullies cruelly exploited that social prejudice,
but they did not cause it.
Every tragedy doesn’t have to result in somebody going to jail. When
people are punished, it should be for the harm that they intend to do.
If a bully crosses the line between freedom of speech, and invasion of
privacy, or harassment, those are the crimes he should be charged
with, as is happening in the cases currently in the news.
If the only tool you have is prison, then every problem looks like a
crime. There are better ways to address cyberbullying, including the
public education campaign now underway at Rutgers. A national
conversation about the importance of civility and respect would be a
more effective tribute to Tyler Clementi than trying to prosecute his
bullies for manslaughter. They acted meanly, and possibly even
criminally, but not homicidally.
Updated | Read Paul Butler’s response to reader comments.
Topics: Internet, Law, Technology
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162 Readers’ Comments
.1. Ethel Merman, Jr.
Riverdale, NY
September 30th, 2010 6:50 pm
As a musician and decent human being, I am sickened at the needless
death of Tyler Clementi, a sensitive and talented young man with a
bright future. Both students implicated in his death should go to
prison for the rest of their unnatural lives, where they will have
years to cogitate on the ramifications of their actions. They need to
live and think, each and every day, about what they did. At the very
least, they should both be expelled from Rutgers and should not be
given admittance to any other university on the planet. Shame on them
and prayers to Tyler’s family, who are clearly devastated, as am I.
May the passage of time assuage their grief.
Recommended by 67 Readers
.2. Retired USMC officer
Georgia
September 30th, 2010 6:59 pm
I am neither a homosexual nor a fan of the life. However, no
punishment is too severe for the ugly creatures who “had fun” at the
expense of a young man who did them no harm. The perpetrators
doubtless favor diversity but would not grant that freedom to a
roommate/classmate. Send them wherever their views are accepted by the
populace.
Recommended by 83 Readers
.3. DaveN
Rochester
September 30th, 2010 7:50 pm
Regardless of how one feels about the actions of those who took the
video, it’s tragic that a young man died just as he was preparing to
go out and make his way in the world. How can those who posted this
video not realize the potential trauma, embarrassment, and lifelong
humiliation of having a sex video posted on the Internet. To me the
gay aspect is irrelevant – at age 18 (and probably no less so today),
I would have been mortified. How anyone could see humor in this – even
if the results had been entirely different – is beyond me.
Recommended by 76 Readers
.4. Da_Philosopher
Los Angeles
September 30th, 2010 7:10 pm
This is such a tragic and heartbreaking case. Yet the writer hits the
nail on the head: “They acted meanly, and possibly even criminally,
but not homicidally.” The actions of some very stupid teens led to a
tragedy, but I sincerely doubt it was their intention to cause their
classmate’s death. This case is sad for everyone involved.
Recommended by 59 Readers
.5. RAL
NY, NY
September 30th, 2010 7:10 pm
The charges should be elevated to hate crimes. It seems as though they
clearly knew what they were doing when they chose to destroy an
innocent and harmless young man’s life, a young man who could have
contributed much to society with his musical abilities as well. What a
sad, sad waste. Such utter disregard for humanity should be dealt with
as severely as the law will allow. Rest in peace Tyler Clementi.
Recommended by 59 Readers
.6. LJ
Columbia, MD
September 30th, 2010 7:14 pm”When people are punished, it should be
for the harm that they intend to do.” WHAT?!! So if I hit someone on
the head with a bat intending to make them bleed, but I end up killing
the person, I should only be punished for assault and not murder 2?
What the heck kind of logic is that? Our legal system does and should
take into account the result of our actions, not just our intentions.
Cyber-bullying is a new crime, relatively speaking, and there aren’t
laws on the books to address these crimes.
Mr. Bulter also claims that “Clementi’s bullies cruelly exploited that
social prejudice, but they did not cause it.” No, they did not cause
homophobia, but they did more than exploit it. They contributed it and
have helped sustain it.
Recommended by 158 Readers
.7. Le Gra
NY, NY
September 30th, 2010 7:22 pm
Indeed the crime committed by criminals Riva & Wei was premeditated as
the Riva criminal set up two ichats for the purpose of berating and
pure violation of the most sacred privacy that being one’s intimacies.
Both Riva & Wei are well aware of the federal violations imposed by
recording without the mutual consent. Further, why was Riva given a
bail of $25,000.00 and the other criminal Wei released on her own
recognizant? Perhaps because Riva has a past criminal record he had to
post or his Father had too. A punishment fitting for this kind of
crime is necessary. It should be crafted so neither criminal Riva or
criminal Wei can ever enter a US college nor pay Rutgers back the
costs to conduct the University wide training. Further the
scholarships they received be rescinded after they are expelled and
given to two students at Rutgers who exhibit attributes such as “non-
judgmental & pure human kindness”! In summary ten (10) years in prison
to life would be fair that being five years each for each event. This
would give a message to all that life is a precious gift and sacred!
Recommended by 47 Readers
.8. J.B.
Dallas
September 30th, 2010 7:25 pmPaul Butler vague assertions regarding
teen suicide are disturbing and false. The CDC classifies suicide at
the third leading cause of teen deaths and says that over 4,400 teens
commit suicide each year. I think it’s pretty clear that a teen’s
social group and social standing play a huge role in a teen’s decision
to commit suicide.
As I am sure you are aware from your work as a lawyer, people are not
just punished for harm they intend to do, but harm actually inflicted.
If you set a building on fire intending to burn it down, but someone
inside is also killed, should you not been held criminally liable for
that death?
Bullying often is a way of enforcing specific social norms or social
structures onto a less powerful group of people. If someone stands
outside of a polling location and verbally intimidates minority
voters, is that ok as long as they don’t actually block the minorities
from voting? If the man that videotaped Mr. Clementi videotaped a teen
girl having sex would your reaction be different?
As a lawyer, I would hope for better logical reasoning and
understanding of the law from a law professor.
Recommended by 123 Readers
.9. cindy
TX
September 30th, 2010 7:25 pm
I reluctantly agree with Paul Butler because this nation has gone
prison crazy and it is often counter-productive. However, I find
myself to be utterly outraged at the action of this malicious person
who posted the video online. What he did was so very wrong, so very
cruel and insensitive, so very shameful.
Recommended by 35 Readers
.10. Ron Bannon
Newark, NJ
September 30th, 2010 7:28 pm
They are kids! All of them. Why is this being elevated to this level?
Yes, it’s wrong to bully, but it also wrong to bully the bully. Show a
little respect for reason, and stop jumping to conclusions about the
absolute nature of evil.
Recommended by 45 Readers
.11. Le Gra
Princeton, NJ
September 30th, 2010 7:29 pmIndeed the crime committed by criminals
Riva & Wei was premeditated as the Riva criminal set up two ichats for
the purpose of berating and pure violation of the most sacred privacy
that being one’s intimacies. Both Riva & Wei are well aware of the
federal violations imposed by recording without the mutual consent.
Further, why was Riva given a bail of $25,000.00 and the other
criminal Wei released on her own recognizant? Perhaps because Riva has
a past criminal record he had to post or his Father had too post the
bail. A punishment fitting for this kind of crime is necessary. It
should be crafted so neither criminal Riva or criminal Wei can ever
enter a US college and pay Rutgers back the costs to conduct the
University wide training for life. Further the scholarships they
received be rescinded after they are expelled and given to two
students at Rutgers who exhibit attributes such as “non-judgmental &
pure human kindness”! In summary ten (10) years in prison to life
would be fair that being five years each for each event. This would
give a message to all that life is a precious gift and sacred!
Recommended by 18 Readers
.12. Mac
Illinois
September 30th, 2010 7:30 pm
I think this could be more suicide than hate crime. The posting of the
video was likely a catalyst, but I think we need to know more about
the case. Would the people calling for life imprisonment for the
posters of the video feel the same if it were revealed that the father
of the deceased were a virulent homophobe? Likely they would. What if
it were the tenth suicide attempt for the boy? Likely they would. I
also agree that the public humiliation could have happened if the boy
were straight, too, so this isn’t on the surface a definite hate
crime. Let’s let the facts come into focus before we turn on the
outrage fully…
Recommended by 24 Readers
.13. Bob
Philadelphia
September 30th, 2010 7:31 pm
“They acted meanly, and possibly even criminally, but not
homicidally.”
And just how do you know this, sir? Based on what you’ve seen on the
news? I’d suggest that your rush to judgment is as premature as that
of the torch-and-pitchfork crowd who want to toss these two young
people in the dungeon.
I hope your decisions about federal prosecutions were more carefully
considered. I never thought I’d be urging a lawyer to let the criminal
justice system do its own work.
This is a time to console the family and to withhold our own judgment
on this awful tragedy. I’ve not yet read the other contributions to
this “debate”, but I’m afraid their opinions will be just as hasty.
Unfortunately, that’s what it takes to get media time.
Recommended by 23 Readers
.14. RadioKev
Montpelier, VT
September 30th, 2010 7:34 pm
I agree that the bulliers should face the consequences of current law.
This is not a hate crime, it does not have the same intent of a hate
crime. He did invade his privacy, and he should go to prison to the
extent of the law, but murder and hate crimes are too much for his
actions.
As this writer suggests, perhaps society is to blame that this student
took his life. Being homosexual isn’t wrong, and it shouldn’t be
hidden. It is deeply personal, and it’s his right to do with his
private affairs as he likes, but the extreme act of suicide only shows
that he was an unstable person. Embarrassment? Not worth taking your
life.
There are deeper issues that shouldn’t be slammed upon the defendant
here.
Recommended by 22 Readers
.15. blasmaic
Washington DC
September 30th, 2010 7:31 pm
Most people would agree that suicide is not an appropriate response to
bullying.
This opens a door to the question of who the bigger bully is, since
the room-mate and his accomplice are now on the recieving end of a lot
of anger and hate which they did not intend to stir, but which
Clementi knew would be sent their way. When there is so much outreach,
acceptance, empowerment, and support for gays and lesbians, how can it
be that a person’s only available response to bullying is a dramatic
suicide?
If suicide was his best solution, what else could have already
transpired between he and his dorm-mates? Why not apply that old rule
about the referees never seeing the first punch thrown (I cite Title
IX when using sports analogies), and trace the sequence of events from
the beginning?
Or maybe university leaders would like “Good-bye, Cruel World” to
become the standard, normal response to room-mate conflict.
Recommended by 19 Readers
.16. Ladislav Nemec’
big bear, ca
September 30th, 2010 7:35 pm
It is technically impossible to stop disseminating (in real time) of
video stuff no matter what the content is.
There should be, however, very severe consequencies to acts like this
‘student duo’. I am not familiar with the current laws but they should
be made much more severe on a FEDERAL level – dissemination of the
stuff is surely not limited to one state (actually, not even one
country).
People should have a freedom of expression – censorship of ‘live’
stuff is impossible in any case – but they should have to pay the
price. Expulsion from a university should be the first step, followed
by prison (obviously, not for life as #1 suggests) and/or a hefty
fine. Also by ban to participate in these strange ‘public’ networks
like Twitter and Facebook (they are actually more, I guess). Basically
to be blacklisted.
An unnecessary tragedy. Growing up gay in a friendly family and
community perhaps gave this young man a false sense of security. There
is not such thing in a country where bible is quoted all the time even
if Leviticus 20 is not that popular nowadays (in publc, that is).
Recommended by 11 Readers
.17. miss the sixties
sarasota fl
September 30th, 2010 7:37 pm
This is no meaner than the acts of malicious people in previous
generations; it is simply that the current technology offers worldwide
dissemination in seconds. The suicide was not the result of the
bullying, but the result of a deeper problem – the other party filmed
did not kill himself. The story would not have received any press at
all except for the orientation of the victim. Public vilification and
expulsion from Rutgers should be adequate punishment for the accused;
I fail to see where this is a criminal act that requires legal action,
other than possibly a civil suit.
Recommended by 22 Readers
.18. Disgusted
NJ
September 30th, 2010 7:10 pm
“There are better ways to address cyberbullying, including the public
education campaign now underway at Rutgers.”
Really? I think the public education at Rutgers is proof that it’s too
little too late. Rutgers needs to take ACTION. Immediately. This is
outrageous, unnacceptable behavior–it’s that simple. There is hard
proof that the information was posted by this student; why hasn’t he
been expelled already? He’s NOT innocent–that’s already been proven.
What happened to ZERO TOLERANCE? Elementary school kids are being
suspended for carrying seemingly innocent items in knapsacks, but this
kid is still enrolled at RU? There is NO logical explanation for that.
The education needs to start in kindergarten, in my opinion. It’s
obviously too late for the current crop of college freshman to learn
how dangerous a ‘simple’ prank like this is.
I hope the former roommate rots in jail for the rest of his life, but
if he doesn’t, the nice news is that any potential employer or date
just has to Google his name to find out all about him. There’s a
little justice in that, no?
Recommended by 39 Readers
.19. Maria
Laurel, MD
September 30th, 2010 7:38 pm
I think consequences are needed for malicious acts online. I am a big
fan of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech, however, does not mean
the freedom to abuse. There is no such freedom. We do NOT need to be
abusive to make our opinions and needs known. When people use freedom
of speech maliciously they are engaging in an act of violence not an
act of speech. We need to make better distinctions about freedom of
speech.
All malice is a form of violence. Meanness is a form of violence.
Although we do not criminalize lesser forms of meanness it is a
mistake to dismiss the consequences of meanness – or emotional
violence. People on the receiving end are harmed. The harm is not
minor. Legalistic and literal definitions and dismissals of malicious
behavior are a form of denial of the realities of the effects of
malice. The attitude is at best callous. Have we not learned anything
about indifference from history?
Recommended by 38 Readers
.20. WP
Philadelphia PA
September 30th, 2010 7:39 pmWait a minute. It doesn’t matter of this
young man was homosexual or not. Another human being, his college
roommate, took a private moment of his life and published it with the
intent of holding him up to ridicule. That is not a crime?
Recommended by 80 Readers
sfullerton
CA
September 30th, 2010 7:41 pm
It’s unfortunate, of course, but I’m not that there is really a right
to privacy in a shared dorm room. I suppose that the “intrusion” seems
fairly atrocious to many, but it’s really not that far removed from
the type of prank that has been perpetuated by college room mates
since they have existed. People’s questionable activities have easily
entered the public domain with the advent of cell phone cameras and
other digital devices. It’s likely that this young man was more “DL”
than closely closeted, otherwise the camera would not have been
running at the crucial time and pointed in the correct direction.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.22. CK Johnson
Brooklyn
September 30th, 2010 7:44 pm
Thank you, Mr. Butler, for your thoughtful analysis. And while the
actions of the accused are reprehensible, let’s also not forget that
they are teenagers. Although they are “legal adults,” the law
recognizes that 18-year-olds often exercise poor judgment: the legal
age for drinking is 21, and in many states, so is the legal age for
unrestricted automobile driving. Teenagers frequently do dumb, mean
things without thinking through the consequences.
If either of the accused teens commits suicide over this incident, a
lot of people who have posted here will have to look in the mirror and
wonder if they should send themselves to jail.
Recommended by 19 Readers
.23. Leanne
Maryland
September 30th, 2010 7:46 pm
The death of anyone at such provocation is sickening, but laws are not
made to prevent this – we need to bring back shaming! build our
communities back to the point where they have an effect.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.24. Michael Branagan
Silver Spring, MD
September 30th, 2010 7:47 pm
I was astonished charges were even considered! What if there was no
video footage and someone said openly at a full school cafeteria table
“Could you keep it down, last night I could hear you two going at it
so long and loud that I couldn’t study”, and then the person jumped
off a bridge the next day. Should we prosecute the story teller at the
table?
Recommended by 14 Readers
.25. jo ma
Vernon, Texas
September 30th, 2010 7:48 pm
Neither Tyler’s roommate nor the girl Molly should go unpunished. Both
should go to prison, if for no other reason than to experience what it
is like to have your every action monitored. Watching Tyler on the web
cam was bad enough, but to spread it campuswide was cruel to say the
least.
Children begin to show their cruel tendencies as soon as they start to
school, witness playground bullying and merciless teasing and shunning
of the child who is somehow different from the rest.
When this is allowed to continue, when no adult intervenes, it only
grows worse.
The child who is overweight, timid, who is dressed differently, whose
clothes are somewhat worn, or who has physical defects or other
problems is ripe for bullying from his classmates.
When no one takes any action to stop the bullies, they and their
cliques only get worse as they get older.
It is a rare child who can stand up to the bullies of this world.
Our courts should come down hard on such people as Tyler’s roommate
and the girl who abetted him in crime.
And every parent should ask, “Is my child a bully?”
And if the answer is yes, then that parent should move heaven and
earth to instill some civility in that child before it is too late.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.26. Jasper
Washington, DC
September 30th, 2010 7:48 pm
This was an homophobic assault on an individual’s privacy and the
perps deserve the maximum possible punishment. Re: laws against
cyberbullying, the sooner such legislation is enacted and the more
inclusive it is, the better. The intranet has become an enabler of
antisocial, psychopathic, and jerk behavior and people who use the
internet to abuse others need to be taken down.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.27. Leslie
California
September 30th, 2010 7:49 pm
College can teach a young person a lot of things and many things about
other people and themselves. But, I thought young men and women come
with some common sense and a basic understanding of human dignity.
Otherwise, they are not qualified to be at university, or little else.
Recommended by 10 Readers
.28. Nathan
nyc
September 30th, 2010 7:49 pm
The use of recording devices brings a new and more dangerous threat to
cyber bullying. It needs to be handled separately.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.29. Romaine
St. Louis
September 30th, 2010 7:50 pm
I disagree. I think cyberbullying is different because the medium
makes it accessible forever. It may be that we don’t need a new
category of offense, that we can still just rely on something like
‘harassment’, and that sentences for harassment should be modified to
reflect the likelihood of long term damage to the victim — but one way
or another there needs to be stiffer penalties for this offense.
In the Clementi case the students who invaded his privacy in such a
despicable and permanent way should be severely punished. Expulsion
from Rutgers and a criminal conviction for invasion of privacy seem
justified.
Recommended by 14 Readers
.30. Bonnie
Princeton, NJ
September 30th, 2010 7:52 pm
Defamation, bullying, invasion of privacy and misrepresentation on the
internet should be punishable by law. Even an anonymous comment on an
internet bulletin board should be traceable. People should not wear
their constitutional right to free speech so lightly as to endanger
another’s wellbeing. The politicians are dragging their heels on this
one, and it’s infuriating at the number of lives both young and old
that have been irreparably marred or destroyed as a result. An adult
woman should not get away with masquerading as a teenage boy while
flirting with a teenage girl and a college student should not be
allowed to post privacy-invading videos on the internet without
suffering repercussions. How do other societies deal with this? There
are libel and defamation laws in the UK and other countries. Until the
laws are in place, this kind of abuse will continue.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.31. QED
Kansas
September 30th, 2010 7:57 pmWow – everyone from the Nanny State
Brigade is out en force for this one.
What Riva and Wei did was dumb and immature. It probably violated a
privacy law (although the fact that Tyler’s encounter occurred in a
room he shared with Riva makes me doubt this). But that is where it
stops. Tyler took the decision to kill himself – you know, that whole
free will thing – and only he is accountable for taking embarrassment
and turning it into suicide.
Let’s take off the training wheels – Tyler was an adult, and he failed
miserably as an adult dealing with the situation he was in. We don’t
need to be running around calling every insult a hate crime; rather,
we need to develop some thicker skin and start acting like adults.
Recommend Recommended Recommended by 17 Readers
.32. simply humanity
florida
September 30th, 2010 8:00 pm
I am deeply saddened, and mostly sickened to know that there are human
beings out there who think that this treacherous act was funny and
that this decent young man was deserving of this unimaginable
humiliation. I would like to see them humiliated just as deeply, if
that is even possible — an eye for an eye. But what would be equal to
death? Throw them out of school, let them grovel in the streets for
their living. They deserve nothing more. They destroyed a budding
human being. They must be ostracized! Rest in peace, Tyler. My heart
goes out to Tyler’s family.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.33. Anonymous
NY
September 30th, 2010 8:30 pm
No, bullying is NOT like spurning a lover. A man (or woman) who
decides he (or she) is no longer in love with their partner is free to
leave. If the partner is still in love, they will be in pain which
may, in some cases, lead them to commit suicide. A bully is tormenting
someone, not because they need to move on, but because they enjoy
having the power to do so. They are intending to inflict pain (whether
they admit it or not) and are responsible for the consequences, no
matter how “extreme” they may be.
Recommended by 18 Readers
.34. hmac
pasadena, ca
September 30th, 2010 8:30 pm
The problem with the kids or young adults in reference to the internet
is the adults. We used the internet to try and embarrass a sitting
president out of office. Ken Starr and company felt it was appropriate
to publish all the findings regarding Bill Clinton’s discretions on
the internet for the world to see. Not for the sake of public
disclosure to but to drive him out of office not because he was wrong
but because they hated him. Really didn’t care what the world thought
about our actions but as long as it would make Bill leave.
Our youth copy our example of ridicule and hate for something or
someone they don’t like. So if the president of the country is fair
game for blasting emails and video’s and content etc. who isn’t?
What we don’t understand is that we justify our actions by saying he
was a bad president (morally) but the youth have trouble
distinguishing between these lofty motives. They just follow the
principle we lay down. You don’t like what somebody does, spy them out
and put it on blast.
The Rush Limbaugh syndrome will soon reach our doors as well. You fire
people up to anger and hate someone going to do more than just pull a
voting lever. Maybe that’s what they want but the trouble is once hate
is out of the bag you can’t control where it will land or how far it
will go. The kids will follow that as well.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.35. J
Forest Hills
September 30th, 2010 8:40 pm
Of course this is a crime, and the two perpetrators should be punished
and ostracized from polite society! What kind of weirdos are going to
videotape a person’s private moment and then post the recording to the
Internet. It’s really quite sick — the actions of sociopaths rather
than ordinary college kids. Too much of the media’s focus has been on
the victim and not on the perpetrators who should not be able to show
their faces anywhere from this point forward. Shame!
Recommended by 10 Readers
.36. wemberly
Somewhere
September 30th, 2010 8:80 pm
I’m a lawyer, too, and I say, what rot!
@ “The criminal law typically does not hold people responsible for
outcomes that are idiosyncratic or unpredictable.”
True, but after the highly publicized cases of Phoebe Prince and Megan
Meier what part of this outcome was unpredictable? I’d be willing to
run that one by a jury anytime.
I agree that we don’t *need* new crimes to bring these alleged perps
to justice. Criminally negligent homicide, reckless homicide,
harassment, invasion of privacy and possibly (depending on the NJ
definitions) non-tactile sex crimes are all general-purpose crimes
that would fit the bill. (I don’t think it rises to the level of
depraved indifference murder, no matter how well the phrase “depraved
indifference” would, in lay terms, appear to describe the alleged
intent at issue in this case.)
But in the face of this startling proliferation of these internet
crimes, it would be *helpful* — sound social policy — for both
Congress and our state legislatures to enact new laws (recognizing
both crimes and torts) that are *specifically* directed at internet
crimes, and that recognize the greater damage inflicted by
instantaneous, permanent, worldwide dissemination of defamation and
invasion of privacy. That recognize the far greater enormity and
heinousness of the act in relation to traditional defamation and
invasion of privacy. That provide judges with guidelines, both for how
to conceptualize the act, and for sentencing.
Recommended by 24 Readers
.37. Ken
NYC
September 30th, 2010 8:10 pm
Brodcasting a sex act on the Internet without the consent of the
participants… I wonder if the correct legal response is not prison
but: Register the two offending students who filmed and broadcast the
victim as “sex offenders”. Let the existing laws concerning sex
offenders than be brought into play (restrictions on habitation,
employment, requirement to register change of address, etc.). Trust
me, these in-line pornographic pranksters and any others who think to
pull a stunt like this will never ever think to do something like this
again.
The laws do not need to be changed- just applied with the same mercy
shown to the victim, none at all.
Recommended by 28 Readers
.38. Barbara
Boston
September 30th, 2010 8:17 pm
For people who may think hatred of gays and lesbians is no longer a
problem, as a lesbian, let me assure you that this hatred is alive and
well. Yes, social values have shifted, it is true, just as social
values around racism, anti-semitism, and sexism have shifted. But all
of these things still exist in virulent form–a search through the
Internet for white supremacists or a glance at rape statistics and
rape sentences will show the level this hatred can take. So yes, these
two committed a hate crime because their action was aimed at a young
gay man.
It is not out of the realm of possibility that he killed himself just
because of this video. Young people are extremely vulnerable to
emotional stresses and frequently struggle to see that “this too shall
pass.” As far as the internet goes, this video will be out there
forever, and had this young man lived, the stigma of “being the man
who was video-taped” would have followed him. That is one of the
problems with the Internet – what goes out there stays out there.
At any rate, the cruelty these two exhibited seems to have infected a
lot of the social domain – or perhaps it has always existed, but the
Internet makes it more visible. It is a tragedy that this young man is
dead. Perhaps we can all offer a thought, a prayer even, of compassion
for all those who have suffered, particularly this young man’s family.
Recommended by 12 Readers
.39. Tom
New York
September 30th, 2010 8:18 pm
I don’t think the roommates broadcast of Tyler’s intimate encounter
was “malicious.” In fact, the roommate expressed approval that Tyler
was having an intimate encounter. Spying on a roommate and
broadcasting the encounter on-line is a terrible invasion of privacy
(and should be prosecuted)… but it was all in stupid “college fun.” If
you search on-line, there are many, many videos taken of people in
“private situations” without them knowing.
The primary issue here for discussion is Tyler’s internalized
homophobia. Had his intimate encounter been with a woman and
broadcast, I doubt we would be discussing his tragic death.
What’s the solution? We need to combat homophobia. We need to stop
demonizing gay and lesbian people. Our straight allies are our
strongest voices. More straight people need to speak out in support of
homosexuality as just a normal expression of sexuality. More gay and
lesbian people in the public eye need to come out. We need to speak
up, and against, these mean-spirited “born- again Christians” who are
anything but Christian. There is hope… every poll I’ve seen shows that
young people are much more comfortable than their parents with
homosexuality. Perhaps it will take until the next generation to
conquer this fear of gay people?
Recommended by 16 Readers
.40. Andrew Peck
Woodstock, New York
September 30th, 2010 8:21 pm
I am amazed at the virulence of malice toward the children who put
this video on the internet. They made a poor choice – a very poor
choice. But life in prison? Being embarrassed did not require suicide,
that was a choice of the victim. Whatever I say here will likely be
the target of hatred some of those who have contributed, nonetheless,
suicide is usually a hostile act, and the perpetrator of the suicide
has clearly been successful, posthumously, with his harmful and
hateful act. I usually put my name and town at the end of a post, but
fear to do so this time.
Recommended by 21 Readers
41. Tom
USA
September 30th, 2010 8:23 pm
Should be a hate crime…………..
Recommended by 4 Readers
.42. David Bartlett
Keweenaw Bay, Michigan
September 30th, 2010 8:28 pm
Should there be tougher laws prohibiting online bullying?
No. But there should be greater moral enforcement. Children should be
inculcated with the absolute notion of tolerance and acceptance. Even
more, adults themselves need to behave better themselves. As it is
now, I see absolutely no distinction between the attitudes and deeds
of young or old, with the exception that the rampant misbehaviors of
the old we are seeing all around us is inexcusable.
Yes, the suicide of Tyler Clementi is beyond regrettable and truly
tragic. But heap extra-legal punishment on his antagonists because of
it? Well, one could argue that behind every suicide is a potential
jail-house full of perpetrators.
So this is where we as a society come into play. We better begin to
grow up, and grow up fast. We are raising up into this world
generations of young people who refuse to play by the normal rules of
manners and conduct. And they are being raised up in an environment
that could easily be argued is the ugliest, most ill-mannered
generation since the time that neanderthals ruled the earth.
Grow up in that? Who would want to?
Recommended by 8 Readers
.43. Peter B
Sarasota
September 30th, 2010 8:30 pm
Why do we humans care so much what others think of us? How can anyone
take their own life just for being who they are – without interfering
with anyone else’s life? Can we somehow teach SELF ACCEPTANCE to the
young for those things that are just basic life choices? Blaming
technology is a waste of time. Suicides by those who have been “outed”
have gone on probably since before Moses, but definitely since I was
in college in the 1960′s. Those who expose others for whatever
personal life choice define themselves more than those they out. They
are petty and without their own self. The happiest people are those
who wish for the happiness of everyone, who provide bits of help and
humor. People who find joy in putting others down inevitably put
themselves down even more.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.44. Nguyen
Coastal Southern California
September 30th, 2010 8:32 pm
This news has given me a new low to the term roommate. Any civility
could be achieved if any of them had moved out. As in the case of
torture and harrassment, almost all of these acts in society are done
in secrecy, and often on going. That, in itself, explains the wrong
doing and malice that are not befitting any modern democratic society.
This is America. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all
men are created equal, that they …” Our forefather were so wise when
it comes to this matter!
.45. Hans Christian Brando
Los Angeles
September 30th, 2010 8:35 pm
The primary trouble is that technology keeps improving and evolving
and expanding, and human nature–let’s face it–does not.
The irony is that technology–specifically social networking–ultimately
may provide a punishment that makes any talk of jail time seem like a
picnic. Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei are probably not the two most
popular people on the digital circuit these days.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.46. ekeizer4
Oregon
September 30th, 2010 8:37 pm
Is being mean a crime now?
No one should go to jail over this. Cruelty happens every day,
especially among college-age people, but to suggest that anyone is
responsible for another person’s suicide is ludicrous. Making these
kids into criminals ignores the fact that, absent a suicide, their
prank would have passed into history with the media and public
oblivious to it. Is meanness only a crime if someone dies? Suicide is
something one does to one’s self. To hold others accountable for it is
to tell a mother her son’s death was indeed her fault, or to chastise
a best friend for “not being there.”
Recommended by 16 Readers
.47. Paul
Verbank,NY
September 30th, 2010 8:38 pm
Just because the technology makes it so easy for idiots to actually
manifest their bad behavior doesn’t lessen the impact. This type of
garbage is becoming all too common. I’m sure Rutgers had some type of
code of conduct, but until there are real punishments meted out that
can be used as an example, this type of behavior will continue. To say
they are just kids isn’t enough to justify letting them just walk
away. This was planned, not a party and someone had cell phone video.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.48. natseeds
MA
September 30th, 2010 8:38 pm
Clearly very sad for all involved. I don’t think you can prosecute
someone or send them to jail because of the psychological influence
they had on a tender soul. Yes our emotional reaction
cries out for a strong sense of justice for people who seem to have no
notion of any moral or ethical codes of reasonable behavior. And
clearly some form of punishment is warranted for the severity of their
behavior, certainly dismissal from Rutgers and let’s say five years of
community service, moral and ethical education, a stiff financial
penalty and any warranted jail time based on current law.
As for the future? Yes we need laws to address these kinds of
situations. And more than law we need a revamped educational and
social system that focuses on kindness, compassion, tolerance, and
human concerns in all dimensions (and not by the way a longer school
year) As long as our society is based on pseudo accomplishment and
prestige, and extraordinarily narrow definitions of what it means to
be a person, then laws will be no more than tools of punishment rather
than the guidance required to grow kids in to feeling, understanding
humans.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.49. C
New York
September 30th, 2010 8:41 pm
I read this comment on another site today and thought it was said so
perfectly stated I am quoting it verbatim: “Actually, the Rutgers
voyeurs should be sentenced to have the rest of their lives–all of it
including showers, bathroom, romantic encounters–broadcast via
webcam.”
Recommended by 9 Readers
.50. Elise
Vancouver
September 30th, 2010 8:41 pm
My deepest condolences to Tyler Clementi’s family. What a terrible
tragedy.
I have several gay relatives, and from them I have gained some idea of
how difficult it might be to “come out.” It’s unthinkable to me that
Mr. Clementi’s roommate and Ms. Wei would film and publicly post what
they did (even if Mr. Clementi were straight). Tyler Clementi’s
suicide sounded impulsive – like his tormentors, he was young, still a
vulnerable teenager – but it seems there is no question his tormentors
played a decisive role in driving him to it. For their blithe,
unspeakably cruel violation of Mr. Clementi’s privacy, they should be
severely punished – partly as an admonition about cyber invasions of
privacy, but overwhelmingly as an admonition to homophobes and as a
statement that American society will not tolerate the bullying of
homosexuals. I think the calls to seek to educate Mr. Ravi and Ms Wei
that I’ve read on NYTimes websites today certainly have merit, but I
think expulsion from college and perhaps jail time might send a very
effective message about what should not be tolerated.
Recommended by 12 Readers
.51. Sleepless in Chicago
Cicero, IL
September 30th, 2010 8:42 pm
I am amazed at the comments. What these students did simply isn’t
criminal behavior. Mr. Butler’s comments are completely on point. What
if they had said, ‘I hate violin players”, and the boy killed himself
and left a note saying he couldn’t live in a world that hated violin
players? Is that a crime? Yes, those students didn’t realize the
potential impact of their acts, and for that, they need counseling and
education [but I suspect that they already feel remorseful about it].
But what purpose will criminal prosecution serve, and where will you
draw the line between immature or inappropriate behavior and crime?
Recommended by 16 Readers
.52. Peter
NYC
September 30th, 2010 8:45 pm
“Clementi’s bullies cruelly exploited that social prejudice, but they
did not cause it.”
Seriously? Acting on societal prejudice means that you’re causing it
too! Assuming the two perpetrators were part of society, of course.
This poor level of logical reasoning is not appropriate for a law
professor.
Recommended by 15 Readers
.53. Mr. Howly
NYC
September 30th, 2010 8:45 pm
I hate to say it, but perhaps the Mr. Clemente might have directed his
extreme violence at his tormentors rather than at himself—or at least,
considered it first— whatever way he could accomplish it, since the
law at that age is utterly powerless to stop a student from turning
another student’s life into a living hell. He would have been tried,
found not guilty or at least guilty under mitigating circumstances,
given a light sentence and perhaps another bully would have thought
twice before picking on someone smaller.
Poor guy.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.54. TK
Buffalo, NY
September 30th, 2010 8:49 pm
Cyberhate is a mere reflection of society, and I don’t believe rules/
laws will change people who have it ingrained in their minds that
people who are “different” are of less worth than other human beings.
The issue here isn’t about being gay or ugly or unpopular, but rather
it’s about neighborhoods in which there is no real community. It’s
about parents raising children to be tolerant and accepting of other
diverse groups of people. It’s about schools teaching the value of
kindness and decency. It’s about churches and religious institutions
preaching messages of Love, not hate/exclusion. I want to hope for
this generation, but instances like these makes me wonder…
Recommended by 3 Readers
.55. Meg Olson
Pittsburgh, PA
September 30th, 2010 8:49 pm
As a 2001 alumni of Rutgers University and an LBGTQ straight-ally, I
am of course horrified by the Tyler Clementi’s suicide. But I am also
saddened by the portrayal of Rutgers University as an intolerant
academic institution. As a young woman from the midwest, I can say
that Rutgers taught me how to understand and explore diversity of all
kinds. My Rutgers has several ‘queer’ groups, including Lesbian and Bi-
sexuals in Action, Rutgers Gay and Bi-sexual Men, Bisexuals, Gays, and
Lesbians at Rutgers University, as well as LBTGQ groups for Latinos
and African Americans. My Rutgers had Demarest Hall, which was
considered a ‘safe dorm’ for LGBTQ students, gender conferences at
Douglass College, and a “Can’t tell? Don’t ask!” policy towards
transgendered people. Back in 1999, we showed “It’s Elementary!” a
movie about accepting the children of gay and lesbian couples, across
dorms at Rutgers College. Rutgers should not be held accountable for
Clementi’s suicide. Ravi and Wei, new students at Rutgers and
previously classmates at West Winsdor Plainsboro North High School,
arrived on the banks intolerant and ignorant and clearly not open to
the messages that Rutgers promotes about its LBTGQ community.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.56. mystic
new york city
September 30th, 2010 7:43 pm
The criminals who perpetrated this deed intended to harm this young
man. They may not have been homicidal but common sense dictates that
it is some level of manslaughter. They should be prosecuted for this
and nothing less.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.57. aldebaran
mexico
September 30th, 2010 7:46 pm
sorry but a “national conversation on civility” is not going to do
anything to solve this cyberbullying issue. this writer is upset b/c
there are already 4,000 federal laws on the books–so what is wrong
with 4,001??? so we should stop writing new laws b/c we are up to
4,000? this doesn’t make sense. this is a new crime b/c of the
prevalence of the internet and social networking sites. gov’t needs to
write laws protecting people who are bullied at school and online. to
tolerate this bullying is just being complicit in the crime. another
point–schools have to do more to protect the students–in this case,
tyler told his resident advisor about the incident. at that point, he
should have been immediately moved out of that dorm room–or ravi his
roommate should have been moved. tyler needed a safe environment. if
he had found protection and support then maybe he wouldn’t have
committed suicide. finallly, this writer shows such a huge lack of
understanding of the fragility of people like phoebe–who was from
ireland and trying to deal with huge culture changes, and tyler–a
young man who was just starting school and dealing with his sexuality
and the society’s take on “gays”–both were very young, very
vulnerable, going through the sexuality of those teen years and they
were attacked by people who relentlessly targeted them. ravi wrote
“yay!” on his twitter page re being able to catch tyler on the webcam
and stream it live. he was overjoyed that he had done this to another
human being. he was exultant. he deserves to be in jail along with his
accomplice and supporter–molly wei. and a better series of laws
prosecuting hate crimes, cyberbullying, bullying needs to be written.
enough already! how many more kids–good kids–sweet kids–have to die at
the hands of bullies??
Recommended by 7 Readers
.58. cjm
New York
September 30th, 2010 7:51 pm
The two students who caused the death of Tyler Clementi should be
arraigned, remanded, and taken to trial for murder. I’m not an
attorney but we have to draw a line somewhere. These students are
products of just how far our nation has declined. It’s more than clear
neither of these students have any idea just how serious their crime
is. Like so many young people today, from teenagers up to the age of
30, that entire generation is a failure; they have no souls, they have
no conscience, no comprehension, no sense of responsibility, and can
be considered only marginally intelligent. They are not living self
examined lives.
We cannot prosecute two students for having no conscience, but we can
prosecute them for the murder of Tyler Clementi, who, from everything
I have read was a highly talented, sensitive, and intelligent human
being. To address the question should we have tougher laws against
malicious acts online? No. What purpose would that serve? A murder has
occurred here, and we have very clear laws governing how to deal with
people who commit murder in this country.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.59. KMS
Portland, OR
September 30th, 2010 7:56 pm
The statement “Bullies ’cause’ suicides in the same way that a man
’causes’ the suicide of a lover he spurns,” is not internally
consistent. When you write for the NYT, you should be able to tell the
difference between a person who cannot accept another human being’s
choices about with whom they will spend their time and a person who
has been objectified, mocked and berated to the point of self-harm.
These are college freshmen, old enough to vote, kill or die on behalf
of this country. They are beholden to its laws, and they have broken
some of those laws. I’m sure some district attorney, judge and/or jury
will decide for the state whether this constitutes some kind of
criminally callous indifference to human life.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.60. Leron George
New York, Queens
September 30th, 2010 8:20 pm
Paul, what a despicable thing to write, “Suicide is a tragic response
to bullying. It is also a rare response. Of the millions of children
who suffer bullying, few take their own lives. Bullies “cause”
suicides in the same way that a man “causes” the suicide of a lover he
spurns”. It sounds like you, like many sympathizers would prefer to
excuse bullying instead of identifying it and extracting it from our
society. In Mr. Tyler’s case the bullying strikes me as almost
premeditated. These students actively sought him out waited for the
right moment to catch him in perhaps the first intimate moment he has
ever had and then proceeding to broadcast it to the entire world. That
is extreme at best and trying to minimize the extend of their actions
only demean whatever argument you are trying to make. Bullying comes
in many forms but to say that the perpetrators may not directly be
linked to the suicide of an individual is reckless logic at best.
Teens, especially gay teens are particularly fragile to a world that
scorns and detests their very existence. Who knows how close to the
end Mr. Tyler was before the incident but I think it’s safe to assume
that both Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei’s actions were enough to push him over
the edge.
My heart goes out to both of these young teens for being a victim of a
society that passively and blindly allow such behaviors to exist.
–Leron
Recommended by 16 Readers
61. mystic
new york city
September 30th, 2010 8:50 pm
Amy Goodman on Democracy Now (democracynow.org) has announced that
there were recently FOUR suicides in the country that resulted from
gays being bullied. This is shocking. Clearly even if death was not
intended, some level of manslaughter is warranted. As a nation we tend
to coverup our crimes so that we can “move forward”, and once
criminals get the message that they are immune from prosecution, the
crimes only continue and get worse.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.62. Rob Thomas
Springfield MA
September 30th, 2010 8:11 pm
As we read this Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell
has been interviewed on Andersen Cooper for his cyber bullying of a
Michigan College student. Incredible hatred and behavior no different
than that which drove others to suicide. The frustrating part is the
DA says the assistant DA does this on his own time is not any business
of the office. The cyber bully laws must not be valid in Michigan.
Will it take another death?
Recommended by 5 Readers
.63. pierce.moffett
portland, or
September 30th, 2010 8:30 pm
Astonishing that this is written by an attorney. “We should be
punished only for the harm we intend to do.” Right… Your law school
called, they want their degree back.
A diffuse, public activity such as education program is not a “better
way” to address cyberbullying. The better way would be aggressively
prosecute these two miscreants/sociopaths and put them away for a very
long time.
Recommended by 12 Readers
.64. jem40000
NE Thailand
September 30th, 2010 8:53 pm
The unfortunate lesson to be learned is to make sure, when conducting
oneself in private and expecting such activity to remain private, that
there is not a computer, camera, or other recording device left
plugged in and ‘on’ in the room …
Recommended by 4 Readers
.65. The Choir
WA State
September 30th, 2010 8:53 pm
No, we should not legislate against any kind of this behavior. That’s
ridiculous. The range of outcomes from people treating people
antisocially acceptable (I refuse to use “bullying,” as adults cannot
be bullied–that, cupcakes, etc., are things for kids, NOT adults–it’s
called, instead, “being an adult and dealing with people who are not
nice,” part of LIFE, people!) is wide, and because someone so mentally
ill overreacts and commits suicide means they had serious
psychological problems and weaknesses to begin with–another person may
have reacted more adult-like and maturely.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.66. E.O.
NYC
September 30th, 2010 8:56 pm
All this comments expressing outrage are insincere at best. An earlier
poster says he no “fan” of the lifestyle. People, Clementi didn’t kill
himself over the recording of his intimate encounter; the filming was
just the catalyst leading to a life of shame and humiliation caused as
a result of taunts directed against him by people who are no “fans” of
his lifestyle.
Recommend Recommended Recommended by 6 Readers
.67. TimesReaderNY
NY
September 30th, 2010 8:59 pm
The death of this young man was a unnecessary tragedy. No one posting
or writing about this likely knows all the facts. I am sure any of us
would have done what we could to have prevented his death.
But let’s keep our heads about this. Based on what we know to date, it
does not appear that those involved intended to cause harm of this
magnitude. Kids will be kids. Unfortunately, if one gives children, or
even young adults, live guns without proper training, it is very
likely someone will get hurt. That is why children are given toy guns
instead. The nature of today’s technology that we are providing to
children and young adults today is similar. And unfortunately, unlike
a live gun, adults often do not have the experience of the knowledge
to anticipate the potential bad outcomes of today’s electronic
technologies. Whether it is this tragedy, or other examples, such as
so-called “sexting”, people are using technology to producing
substantial unintended consequences. Passing more laws won’t rectify
the situation–they will only empower victory-thirsty prosecutors to
pursue more ill-advised cases. These are good people getting into bad
situations that they likely never anticipated–that doesn’t equal a
premeditated crime, and such bad judgement shouldn’t tarnish one’s
record. There are civil courts where damages can be sought by injured
parites, but let’s not criminalize stupid mistakes that anyone could
make. Children (and many adults for that matter) lack the judgement
required to deal with the power of today’s technolgies. Even the most
tech-savvy amongst us have been surprised at times by our own
experiences with power of modern electronic technologies.
In this specific case, let’s keep in mind there is more to the story
of what happened at Rutgers than we yet know. What we do know is that
these events occurred only 2 or 3 weeks into these Freshmen’s college
experience. The pressure on all of these first-time college Freshmen
is tremendous. They are all in a new world, likely away from parental
supervision for the first times in their lives, and they are thrown
together with people whom they are still getting to know–these are
difficult circumstances. Rather than this case be turned into a debate
about how children might be gay-bashing, or about what new laws should
be passed, the right question might be whether one roommate should
have been imposing on another roommate to secure privacy in their
joint dorm room for a sexual encounter–not once, but at least twice.
And there may have been prior incidents, as clearly the roommate had
to have thought this through a little bit to have enabled the camera
to have been remotely activiated from another computer–my guess is
that there were prior incidents. None of this justifies a death, but
those of us who have been placed in uncomfortable positions with
roommates, or have seen others placed in that position, know that
there is a frequent instinct to strike back, or at a minimum defend
one’s rights. It would appear that there was some tension growing
between these roommates–at a rapid rate given how close these
incidents were to the start of the school year. One has to wonder
where was the University in its role of loco parentis. Think about it–
this event could never have happened if these kids were still living
at home because they woundn’t have been living together in the same
room, so the one student wouldn’t have been in a position to record
the other. And remember, it’s not like the perp set up a special
camera to do this–he used his own camera that was in his own dorm
room. Despite the state law, he has a certain right to record the
events that occur in his dorm room, just as any individual or family
has a right to set up a nanny-cam in their own home. If the nanny
starts having sex on the couch in front of the nanny-cam, it would
appear one could become an automatic violator of this NJ law just by
having set up a camera on one’s own property to record events in one’s
own home. Oddly enough, it seems to me one would want to catch the
nanny having sex in shared spaces in the home, yet that very act by
the nanny would then turn the employer into a criminal and put the
recording off limits. I haven’t read the NJ law, but one’s dorm room
has many of the same aspects of protection as one’s own home.
I am sure many will write negative comments about the issues I have
raised, but I ask that one move beyond the attention-grabbing
headlines and the spin the media has put on this story, and think
through the raw facts. Any of us who attended college could have been
in similar circumstances in our past, whether it was a roommate who
took over the room for sex, or drug use. This becomes an invasion of
the other roommates’ right to a secure and comfortable living
situation.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.68. Hans Christian Brando
Los Angeles
September 30th, 2010 9:10 pm
Another irony–one that does indeed make this a gay rights issue–is
that gays are so often accused by their detractors (even the ones who
claim “I don’t have anything against gay people, but…”) of “flaunting
their lifestyle.” Look what happens when a young man seeks a little
privacy.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.69. Julie
NYC
September 30th, 2010 9:40 pm
As an attorney I think it is high time that in appropriate cases
prosecutors should have the ability to try alleged bullies using the
current penal laws concerning assault, battery, harassment, stalking,
and the like. I also think that private citizens should have standing
to sue alleged bullies pursuant to our various civil laws concerning
personal injury such as intentional infliction of emotional distress
and negligence. I cannot comment on whether this rises to the level of
a criminal act, but I do think this is ripe for civil litigation. The
perpetrator was the victim’s roommate and as such he knew or should
have known that this young man was shy and reclusive. Indeed, it
appears that the point of “outing” him to the internet was due in part
to the victim’s secretive behavior. I think it is fairly obvious that
he intended to publicly humiliate the victim. But, at the very least
he acted with reckless disregard of the possible consequences of his
actions. In other words, he really didn’t stop to think or care what
might happen if his victim discovered that his private encounter was
being broadcast for all the world to see. For that act of heightened
negligence, the roomate should be made to pay, and pay big. Punitive
damages its called. It won’t bring this poor, young man back, but
punitive damages are awarded when there is a public interest at stake
and a need to deter the behavior that caused the injury at issue. I
can think of no better example at the moment.
Recommended by 12 Readers
.70. Elextra
San Diego
September 30th, 2010 9:50 pm
It’s a tragedy to be sure…but what about the parents of children who
are raised without empathy, compassion and respect for their fellow
man. What about their lack of humanity? My daughter, who is now 44
teased a young girl at school when she was in the 5th grade, about the
fact that she didn’t have “fashionable” shoes. When the teacher let me
know how this little girl who, with my daughter’s friends, had been
bullied to the point that she didn’t want to come to school any more,
I asked for a meeting with all of the girls involved, the victim, the
perpetrators AND their parents. I wanted my daughter and her friends
to see this child’s humanity, and that she had parents who loved her
and I wanted my daughter to see the pain she caused in this child’s
life, up front and personal. My daughter left that meeting devastated!
Today she still thanks me for allowing her to develop the compassion
for anyone who is being unfairly judged. The only common denominator I
can conjure up for anyone who thinks, feels or acts superior to
another human being is that were you dying of an incurable disease,
would you judge a potential organ donor by the color of their skin,
whether they were hetereosexual, short, tall, fat, rich, educated or
ignorant?
Recommended by 7 Readers
.71. AM
New York, NY
September 30th, 2010 9:60 pm
It seems to me that the arguments along the lines of not holding Riva
and Wei responsible for the outcome,even if unintended, of their
actions is the same argument, now largely (and fortunately)
discredited that used to be made about drunk driving. People need to
understand that their actions can havetragic and criminal outcomes,
even if those oucomes were unintentional.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.72. Arthurr
NYC
September 30th, 2010 9:90 pm
Look. Let’s take the suicide part out of this for a second. And let’s
take the ‘gay’ part out. Now let’s take the sex part out. Lets say
these two people secretly put a couple ,man and woman, making out
privately, on the web. That would be a prank. Plain and simple. Add
the sex, you have real invasion of privacy, but still a prank. Add gay
and you have another level. Add suicide and you have real problem. But
their intent was initially a prank. It went terribly wrong, but i
believe it was just a prank to begin with. !8 year olds rarely see the
consequence of all their actions.
Recommended by 12 Readers
.73. Jack Smith
St Louis
September 30th, 2010 9:11 pm
That was not a nice thing to do, i.e expose your roommate’s perceived
shortcomings for the world to see. If you get punished for stealing
when you’re 18, you should be punished for stealing someone’s most
intimate moments. I believe 5 years and even 10 years is too little
time to serve, even if Mr Ravi didn’t think his heineous prank would
lead to his roommates’s suicide
Recommended by 6 Readers
.74. ea
washingtonI , d.c. s.
September 30th, 2010 9:12 pm
This campaign against the two defendants in this case is unfair. Any
change in the law would not affect their case because they have
already been charged. In fact, I have yet to read what exactly Wei had
to do with this incident. There is absolutely no evidence that the
suicide had anything to do with the posting of the video on the
Internet, just the suggestions of a coincidence of timing. Do we
really know what was going on in his life? There is no evidence of a
hate crime as far as I can see, and if there is no prior criminial
convictions, conviction on these charges probably will not result in
jail time. Stop this hyped campaign of interference in the justice
system and allow the system to work fairly.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.75. Dan P
NYC
September 30th, 2010 9:13 pm
Maybe prison is not the answer. However, there are other ways to
punish someone and make his/her life horrible. Possibly enormous civil
penalties could be levied against the perpetrators, resulting in a
lifetime of massive debt. THAT seems reasonable. It’s much better than
any amount of prison time and it will be a daily reminder of how their
idiocy hurt someone.
I think you CAN punish people for being idiots.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.76. remet23
New Brunswick, NJ
September 30th, 2010 9:15 pm
The comparison of the two incidences is false. While Phoebe Prince was
clear a case of bullying, it takes bully to throw cans of coke at her
in public and assault her openly. It is rather different in the case
of Tyler Clementi. It is all easy to think that those two fellow
students were monstrous bully and write them off. It’s all too easy to
think that if they are punished and locked up, we will be rid of two
abnormal youth. The reality is that those two are your normal, garden
variety jerk in college. They are around us, and no locking away one
or two will make this a safer society for us. We must acknowledge that
ordinary college kids can do this, and ask what we can do to prevent
ordinary college kids inflict such pain on others, and ultimately make
them understand WHY such travesty was more serious than other prank
they do regularly in the college dorm.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.77. Anthony
Manhattan
September 30th, 2010 9:19 pm
People need to get off of social networking sites and start really
living, this will surely lead to the the “Molly and Dharun” reality
show or the “Molly and Dharun” dancing with the stars and all of you
people who are calling for their heads will dutifully tune in.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.78. Frunobulax
Chicago
September 30th, 2010 9:22 pm
A dreadful and heartbreaking case with many lives scarred: one young
man a suicide; two more teenagers whose lives are now pretty well
ruined; and three families grieving. The criminal law has a place in
this case, although a limited one; and I wouldn’t be surprised if the
boy got only a short jail sentence and the girl probation. These acts
were more the product of foolishness and immaturity than malice. The
consequences, however, whatever the actors’, states of mind, will
reverberate for many years and touch many lives.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.79. Josh
Saint Louis
September 30th, 2010 9:23 pm
Tyler Clementi’s suicide should never have happened. That said, could
anyone claim that his response was a reasonable response to his
roommates actions? Suicide isn’t a reasoned action. Mourn the tragedy
of his death, but hold his roommate accountable for his actions alone
and not for what Tyler Clementi did in response.
Recommended by 11 Readers
.80. livid
NYC
September 30th, 2010 9:23 pm
This is a hate crime in the simplest of terms – they intended to
inflict harm (at the very least emotional) on Mr Clementi – because he
was perceived as different. I think the parents should be taken to
court because they enabled the crime by providing the tools to
accomplish the crime. Also by broadcasting it on the need they should
be charged with distributing porn (possibly to underage children). If
they do not see the light of day I would (maybe) be satisfied. I don’t
wish them physical punishment – but ongoing emotional punishment would
be justice.
Recommended by 5 Readers
81. Patti
Virginia
September 30th, 2010 9:23 pm
The best outcome of this event would be to educate people about the
extreme harm that bullying can inflict. We like to think that giving
someone a long sentence would get the word out to others who engage in
bullying. Unfortunately, that usually doesn’t work. People, especially
those in this age group who are less likely to think of the
consequences of their actions, often find some way to distinguish
themselves from a person who goes to jail. I don’t think that there is
much to be gained by a long jail sentence except for those who want to
satisfy their sense of revenge. I also suspect that the young man who
streamed this video has already learned how serious his “little prank”
turned out to be. Instead a jail sentence, I would like to see him
agree to devote himself to several years of community service during
which he would speak directly with those who engage in bullying and
communicate how deadly serious their actions can be. I would like to
see him use video on the Internet to reach out to those who bully to
impress upon them that they are not engaged in a funny prank.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.82. Barry
Virginia
September 30th, 2010 9:27 pm
Butler’s reasoning is wrong on so many accounts. One example: When
people are punished, it should be for the harm that they intend to do
Not so long ago, a high school student was sentenced to jail for
causing a fatal accident while driving drunk. I’m sure that she
intended to cause no harm when she started to drive that night. Should
she and other drunk drivers not be punished because of a lack of
intent?
And looking forward, laws specifying and clarifying cyberbullying and
its punishments are indeed necessary. Do we have enough laws? A
jarring example: the Bush administration did not think so after 9/11 —
we got the Patriot Act, among others. Sometimes the law needs to be
updated as times and technology change.
These two people need to be held accountable for their roles in
Clementi’s death. I won’t hazard an opinion on whether their
culpability rises to homicide. But an appropriate punishment may deter
other people from behaving similarly. Clear laws on cyberbullying
would only help the situation.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.83. Nick Lento
Cliffside Park, NJ
September 30th, 2010 8:26 pm
What happened was far worse than a “breakup”. That’s like comparing a
slap on the wrist with a rape/murder. Both are assaults but they are
qualitatively in different universes.
The perpetrators of this crime deserve to be prosecuted at the federal
level for violating the hate crime law.
If THIS doesn’t qualify as a criminal act of hatred then nothing does.
The defense for these monsters will be that they “didn’t *mean* to
kill the victim” that it was intended to be just a harmless prank and
that the victim “over-reacted” and that that somehow makes it all HIS
fault. That’s what the lawyers will be claiming…….and the claims will
be nonsense!!!!!
There is a principle in law that one is responsible for the
consequences of a criminal act. If you are the driver for a robbery
that results in a person being killed….you are guilty of murder as
much as the trigger-person. If you throw a heavy rock off a roof that
hits no one….you are guilty of a relatively minor offense. If you have
the bad luck to hit someone but only mildly injure them that’s another
more serious crime….and if you hit someone who dies…..then you are
guilty of some degree of manslaughter/homicide. It’s the same action,
but different outcomes dictate different criminal charges.
These miscreants should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of every
state and federal law on the books and if they are found guilty they
need to be sentenced to the MAXIMUM sentences possible with no
possibility of parole and the sentences should all run
consecutively….and if that means they spend the next twenty years in
jail then so be it!!! Such and outcome will serve as deterrence.
If they get off with no jail time, or just a few months it will be a
signal that this kind of criminal activity is acceptable and no big
deal. What it takes to be ABLE to do something like this is a
disconnection between a person’s heart/conscience and their
actions…..that’s a sociopathic reality that needs to be dealt with.
There is no law that can make people be decent human beings…..but if
and when the perpetrators understand that there will be serious
consequences for acting out their own pathology….they will refrain out
of a sense of self interest.
The abusers in this case are lucky in the sense that the victim chose
to turn his heartbreak and pain on himself……….he could just as easily
chosen to go the other way and taken them with him. They should be
thankful they are still alive.
Someday we may live in a world where this kind of violation will not
be such a big deal and no one would be more than annoyed and somewhat
angry……..but we are FAR from that place and until we get there we need
serious laws withe serious teeth and those laws need to be enforced to
the hilt!!!
If the perpetrators get off light on this then the laws need to be
strengthened and the penalties increased so that a person who does
this can be found guilty of manslaughter.
The fact that some are arguing that this is nothing but an “anomaly”
and that no one should be punished/held accountable is an indication
of just how much we have lost our connection with common human
decency.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.84. Grant
Hagerman, Idaho
September 30th, 2010 9:27 pm
The ‘perps’ set out to destroy a person’s reputation. Their ‘tee-hee-
hee’ moment evolved from their reptilian brains. Their resumes and
biographical data should be combed for previoud acts of senseless
behavior, put under a ‘microscope’; and the product of those
revelations should be broadcast to the public at large. If they have
previously betrayed the trust of a roommate, how can they be trusted…?
I want to know how they got into a university.
Question: What would you think if the victim killed the ‘perps’ before
he took his own life? Or what if the victim decided to live, not
commit suicide? Would you think he was justified in his actions? Does
that precede Hammurabi and/or the ‘Code of the West’? Do you agree
with Socrates’ pupil who asserted, “To do an injustice is by nature
good. To suffer an injustice is evil”,
concluding in the the necessisity of law. Does a boy have to be
hanging from a barbed wire fence inorder for his blood to cry out for
justice?
Recommended by 4 Readers
.85. bengoshi2b
Hawaii
September 30th, 2010 9:28 pm
“The bullies cruelly exploited that social prejudice, but they did not
cause it.” Who cares whether they “caused it?” Cruel intentional
public exploitation of a clearly defined and ongoing social prejudice,
affecting a substantial minority of the entire population, to a
potentially limitless number of people, is the issue. What “caused”
the social prejudice in the first place is irrelevant. I am not
normally a fan of jailtime as a deterrent for trendy new crimes, but
we are talking college-age kids here, not tweens or gradeschoolers.
These college kids are the first generation to come of age with social
media, and they have to be held responsible for its misuse in civil
society. From the sound of the facts, at least some time in
confinement seems appropriate.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.86. MacBones
NY
September 30th, 2010 9:29 pm
College dorm rooms aren’t for fornication, homosexual or heterosexual.
What his roommate did was wrong, but just as wrong this kid brings a
partner into their shared 12X12 cubicle. Who wants that? Further, a
person has a right to be homophobic. The university system should do a
better job of matching roommates. Why should a heterosexual male (or
female) be required to sleep in the same bedroom as a sexually active
homosexual? God knows, they (colleges) make enough money to do so-
living on Campus costs more than living off. What these kids did is
wrong, but it never would have happened if the College mixed roommates
more appropriately.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.87. Jim
Denver
September 30th, 2010 9:32 pm
This young man’s death should lead, as it is doing, to an examination
of attitudes towards gays, lesbians, and anyone regarded as
‘different’ by the typical people in society. Owing to the youth of
all involved, I would ascertain that this is an unfortunate incident
which cannot be rectified by pilloring the youth involved. Better to
use it as a ‘teaching incident’ to inform others around the country.
His choice to commit suicide is based on his youth, as was that of the
others involved. This means, to me, by the way,that eighteen year olds
are not always adults.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.88. sfullerton
CA
September 30th, 2010 9:36 pm
It’s actually quite ironic that we’re seeking to castigate the young
man and woman for their actions when a movie about the founding of
Facebook is coming out this weekend. It’s genesis was a clumsy attempt
to embarrass people using the internet by someone who’s now the leader
of the largest social networking site.
I’m afraid that where lines between acceptable and unacceptable
behavior are so blurry, there can be a knee-jerk reaction leading us
to err on the side of coddling. This is not like physical hazing.
Whether or not you like it, parents, schools, institutions cannot
protect the sensitive for ever. At some time you have to face some of
the difficulties that life holds for you.
I do not intend to sound insensitive, although, I suppose, that is
unavoidable. Mr. Clementi might have fared better at a smaller school.
There are probably a lot of “what if’s” that could cited.
Nevertheless, Mr. Clementi should not become a poster child. Rutgers
is not Laramie, WY.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.89. David Brown
Victoria
September 30th, 2010 9:37 pm
Great article but few of the people who responded get it. You can’t
criminalize every act that might have a bad consequence. You can’t
criminalize insults – you tell someone that they are ugly and the
person takes it so hard that he commits suicide. Or you tell someone
that he has bad breath and the person commits suicide half an hour
later. You really want to make these “words” into crimes. So where is
the line between criminalized words or pictures and non-criminalized
words and pictures. A person may commit suicide because he thinks that
he has no friends. So are people in the community guilty of a crime
because they have not properly befriended him. It is a slippery slope
when words and pictures are criminalized whether broadcast on the
internet or published in a book or delivered in the form of a letter
with photographs and sent in the mail. This type of criminalization is
not uncommon in a totalitarian state; it is wisely avoided in a
democracy.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.90. EPC
Uniontown, PA
September 30th, 2010 9:38 pm
Not a hate crime? He had already “posted” to his friends he had gotten
a man who was gay as his roommate. No one is saying anything about
what he had said to his friends either personally, or in a ‘phone
call. Would he have spied on his roommate if he had been straight? I
doubt it. In my opinion, this was a hate crime, pure and simple. The
punishment should fit the crime. A hate crime.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.91. nos103
illinois
September 30th, 2010 9:46 pm
I am sputtering inside with all sorts of indignation; What sense of
entitlement gave these 2 bullies the where-with-all to act out their
sociopathic detachment from empathy, crashed into their narcissistic
grandiosity, against and exploitative of another person, a peer?
However, I check myself from indulging in that indignity; judging
always seems to create bad karma for me. What does strike me as I read
the author’s shoulder-shrugging attitude of “what are you gonna do?”,
is that all people need protection from hate crimes carried out under
the guise of technology. While the 2 bullied teens who committed
suicide may have felt powerless to effectively challenge their
tormentors, their deaths should not be in vain. Mr. Butler, if there
aren’t effective laws, etc. (whatever legal-ease you want to use to
describe ‘prohibitions’/statutes, etc., etc.,), help to craft them, in
the spirit of what Tyler and Phoebe would have liked to see happen
when ‘stalked’ by the bullies who obsessed in tormenting them. My
message to you – be part of the solution, not the problem.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.92. Ed
Temple Hills, MD
September 30th, 2010 9:46 pm
I agree with Paul Butler. This is not a hate crime, and may prove not
to be a crime at all. The article says Dhurun knew about Tyler’s
sexuality before he moved in. So maybe he didn’t kill himself because
he was exposed.
Also doesn’t Dhurun have a right to be concerned about strange older
men entering his room?
Recommended by 5 Readers
.93. talltexan
dallas, tx
September 30th, 2010 9:48 pm
I have not read all the comments. I am a 46 yr old female- I have one
foot in the analog world and one foot in the digital world. I was
seriously harassed and bullied in real time growing up in the 70′s in
Junior High. What I find lacking in most all of the commentary is that
no one recognizes something seemingly specific to this generation AND
particular to these 3 Students- they all seemed to go to the internet
for social interaction, before (possibly, we don’t know all the
details) going to others more personally and physically available to
them. The young man who may or may not have been suicidal turned to
the NET to vent, to ‘ work things out’: might it not have turned out
differently if he called an old friend or talked to another student
friend, campus counselor in person? The 2 complete idiots harassed
this guy on line as if it was anonymous. What if they had just been
sitting at the cafe table together with a group of roomies complaining
that he was hoggin the room to have sex with a BOY, OMG…. In my
college in the ‘unenlightened 80′s” someone would have told them to
get over it and quit queer bashing. Trying to figure out how to
punished Net related crimes, tragedies etc will not be easy when we
barely comprehend how this new digital reality alters our own reality.
Unfortunate and Extremely uncharted territory for everyone involved.
I do not think it should pass without a price- but all options seem
tragic in light of this. Sincere condolences to all children and
families involved.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.94. MacBones
NY
September 30th, 2010 9:51 pm
Ridicule a crime? Tasteless, yes, a crime not so sure. Shouldn’t be
doing something in a shared dorm room you wouldn’t want the world to
know about. Go pay for a private hotel room and a similar event
happens, different story.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.95. barbara
nyc
September 30th, 2010 9:53 pm
The video is cruel. Our society sends the wrong message regarding
homosexuality. I am not homosexual and do not feel comfortable in gay
culture but Americans are biased. This bias justifies
abuse. It allows them to degrade, insult and humiliate. They do not
care about the results of their
actions. To them it is just deserts for being other. I am sure these
same people see themselves as normal, Christian or religious and
entitled. Homosexuality is some kind of threat that makes all of this
ok. These students understood the outcome would hurt. That is why they
did it.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.96. CFXK
DC
September 30th, 2010 9:58 pm
College Prank? I had parents who taught me right from wrong, and about
the primacy of respecting the basic human dignity of others. and they
taught me about the consequences of my actions when I disrespected
others. And they reprimanded me anytime I showed the least bit of
disrespect for another human being. This is not something you learn in
college. It’s about upbringing and character. Someone who so
disrespects another human being in this way lacks moral character and
is a reflection on the parents who failed to instill fundamental moral
decency within him. There are no excuses here.
Recommended by 10 Readers
.97. mom123
Boston MA
September 30th, 2010 10:23 pm
Wait a minute. When I was their age, any attempt to humiliate people
in this fashion was based on hearsay/I saw and not viral internet
postings. That really does change the playing field doesn’t it? I
discussed this incident with my teen and pre-teen (both of them in
school environments that are supposedly liberal but also insanely
competitive) We all agreed that “mind your own business” is not a bad
rule to live by. And, the fact that causing somebody immense hurt like
this is somehow akin to killing a person for any other reason than
self-defense or defense of your loved ones.
We also wondered about the perpetrators’ need for fitting in, perhaps
getting the old once-over in before they were targeted themselves for
being nerdy and over-achieving. Just sayin’ . Kids always understand
their peer group better than we can ever wish ourselves.
My heart goes out to all these kids’ parents.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.98. Al
Edison, NJ
September 30th, 2010 10:47 pm
Civility and decency need to start at the top. When our political
candidates and leaders are bashing each other and digging out dirt
about others’ private lives, what kind of example does it set for
young people. That said, Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei are old enough to think
about how they would feel if their private acts are broadcast over the
internet, and what they did was clearly malicious and premeditated and
definitely constitute bullying. As one reader stated, bullying is not
tolerated even in elementary school, these young adults ought to know
better. What they did should not simply be excused as a lapse of
judgement or youthful indiscretion (which many of our leaders use to
excuse their inappropriate behaviors). Whether it is considered as
hate crime, they should be punished to the maximum extent permissible
by law. A few years in prison is not too severe of a punishment
considering the consequence of their actions.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.99. Yuki Chor
Kuala Lumpur, MY
September 30th, 2010 11:13 pm
Human is weird. They cannot be categorized as bad nor good. True, what
these kids (15-18years old still considered as kids?) have done to
Tyler and Phoebe were bad, seriously bad. I have been bullied too, but
not to the extent that I could kill myself to relief from it. Taking
these abusers/bullies to the jail does not sounds right. It is not a
good way to treat these ‘kids’ or for them to relearn from their
mistakes. It would only give them nightmares and regrets for their
whole life. I do believe they are still immature in thoughts and being
silly in their teen life. Send them to some communty servieces for 2
years, for them too widen their knowleged and to know how stupid their
actions were.
You would just destroy these youngsters future if you send them to the
prison and claim it as an act of crime. Forgive and forget? Yes and
no.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.100. Joe Schmoe
Brooklyn
September 30th, 2010 11:57 pm
Outrageous demands of life imprisonment, hate crime charges, and so
forth are only going to generate sympathy for the two criminals, who
are guilty of invasion of privacy and (possibly) sex crimes. Some of
you ranting fanatics need to screw your heads on straight. These kids
surely deserve punishment, but only the same that would be meted out
had Tyler Clementi been having heterosexual sex. That he was gay
probably played a role in the events that transpired, but that is
incidental. I see no evidence of a “hate crime,” but rather a crime
born of morbid curiosity and a mean spirited desire to humiliate
somebody who, obviously, the two Rutgers criminals didn’t care for
personally. Poster #1 is ridiculous. Life imprisonment? Please. And
where are Tyler Clementi’s parents in all of this? Were they even
interested enough to know that they raised a son with incredibly low
self esteem?
Recommended by 6 Readers
101. Mike
Provincetown MA
October 1st, 2010 12:10 am
I civilly and respectfully disagree with Mr. Butler that this was just
about “being a jerk”. Although the two other students who recorded
Clementi didn’t create the social prejudice of homophobia, they
certainly were aware that it existed and knew how damaging it could
be. Especially as members of ethnic minorities, their insensitivity is
pretty sad. How would Butler react if this was two white kids
recording a black student having sex and broadcasting it twice online
in perpetuity?
Recommended by 9 Readers
.102. sfullerton
CA
October 1st, 2010 12:60 am
How can people see this so differently – criminals / just misguided /
poor boy / blame it on the parents / campus mourns? BTW, McBone –
where do you suggest that college kids have sex – the quad after
midnight.
Clementi’s death, while sad, was not a “tragedy” (it might be tragic,
though). More like stupid. Clementi knew that his room mate was
capturing him on video & still held his liaison. He had even arranged
to have the room to himself – a little common sense would have gone a
long way.
Pranks are cruel. The bag of burning dog poo; the banana peel & water
balloon. This was just a bit more hi-tech.
I’m sure that thousands of Rutgers students will stand at a night time
vigil, candles burning while they convince themselves that Clementi
was a wonderful person – if only … what if …
Recommended by 4 Readers
.103. Eric Mitchell Sabinson
Campinas, Sao Paulo, Brazil
October 1st, 2010 12:20 am
Cyberbullying is a kind of virtual lynching. The common denominator is
the attempt to control, humiliate, intimidate, not only the victim,
Tyler, but all sexual minorities. It is obtuse not to understand that
a hate crime was committed.
Recommended by 9 Readers
.104. Andrew Vincent Alder
Palm Springs, California
October 1st, 2010 12:41 am
Mr Butler asserts that the male and female students that engineered
the taping/broadcast of Mr. Clemente’s private life should not be sent
to prison. What rot. The conduct of these two folks was outrageous and
though they may not have expected the object of their ridicule to take
his own life as a result of their actions, the fact is that once they
acted to set in motion their plot to have fun at this young man’s
expense, they must be held to account for whatever those consequences
turn out to be. They ruined the life of another; theirs lives deserve
the very same fate.
Recommend Recommended Recommended by 7 Readers
.105. Roger
Seattle
October 1st, 2010 12:42 amThere have been many thoughtful responses to
Professor Butler’s assertion that one should only be punished for the
harm one intended to do. I won’t take a lot of time adding my own
response in agreement with these responses. But I would like to hear
the professor’s response to the responses.
Recommended by 4 Readers
Paul Butler
October 1st, 2010 4:27 pm
I appreciate all the thoughtful comments from readers. A number of
people have focused on my statement that the criminal law generally
prefers to punish people for the harm that they intend to do. There
are some exceptions to this general rule, but I doubt if they would
apply to these kinds of cases.
Unintentional killers are sometimes prosecuted for negligent homicide,
but most such laws require that there be a “substantial” risk that the
defendant’s conduct would cause the death. Because suicide is a rare
response to bullying, it would be difficult for a prosecutor to prove
“substantial risk” beyond a reasonable doubt..106. Sarah
Europe
October 1st, 2010 1:34 am
Paul Butler wrote: ‘Bullies “cause” suicides in the same way that a
man “causes” the suicide of a lover he spurns. ‘
I could not disagree more vehemently with this statement! How can you
possibly equate what was clearly a malicious act, intended to crush
and humilate its victim, to the break-up of a relationship?
The mind boggles.
Recommended by 14 Readers
.107. Judith
Abroad
October 1st, 2010 1:38 am
@15:
So now Clementi is the bullier because he commited suicide?
I don’t deny that some of the responses to Ravi and Wei’s actions have
been rabid.
But now you’re placing all the blame on the victim?
You can’t even leave the poor kid alone in death…
Recommended by 6 Readers
.108. Sara B.
MI
October 1st, 2010 3:19 am
This was a malicious act with foreseeable consequences. Hurting
another for sport. It should lead to prison. If it were your son or
daughter secretly taped in a moment of intimacy and live broadcast on
the internet, I think you would want a little justice on his or her
behalf.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.109. yuri pelham
concord ma
October 1st, 2010 3:27 am
I’ve read 80 comments and see various points and feel like agreeing
with those who are vindictive and then later seeing this tragedy as
more a consequence of carelessness. What I wish to see in the comment
section… and up till now see none of what I want to see… is commentary
from intelligent thoughtful college students who may have more real
time perspective. I would like to see 100 comments from Rutgers
students posted where all can read and gain greater understanding.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.110. Eduardo
San Francisco
October 1st, 2010 3:55 am
There’s every reason to believe these two people will receive
punishment enough without ever going to prison. The result of what
they did will haunt them for many years to come…perhaps their entire
lives. So they will pay dearly in ways that few would want to
experience.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.111. Sean Martin
Mebane, NC
October 1st, 2010 6:51 am
>> “There are better ways to address cyberbullying, including the public education campaign now”
Oh yes, I’m sure that makes Tyler feel ever so much better.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.112. mhk
salem ny
October 1st, 2010 7:12 am
how could we raise children to college age who are so insensitive that
they think that it is funny and who are so homophobic that they think
it is ok to video another’s private moment? that is truly frightening…
of course they should be punished…they surely have erased their right
to be at rutgers or any other institute of advanced learning.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.113. willie sutton
Seattle
October 1st, 2010 7:26 am
Drunk drivers don’t intend to kill someone, but when it happens they
are charged with vehicular homicide. These bullies did intend to harm
someone. They are more culpable than the drunk driver.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.114. evemh2o
Rhode Island
October 1st, 2010 7:51 am
There is a lot to disagree with in Paul Butler’s take on the Rutgers
incident, and other readers have already weighed in. The best example
is disagreement with his point regarding “intent to harm.” However, I
believe that we need to understand that prison time cannot be the ONLY
consequence in a case like this. We do need other tools. Seriously, I
am in favor of bringing back public punishments as a deterrent. In
this case, severe public punishment, followed by some kind of lasting,
not to say permanent, censure that can function as a metaphorical jail
cell.
BTW. I am not even sure this tragic episode is “bullying” … invasion
of privacy, certainly.
By whatever name, it was a stupid, thoughtless,cruel act, and one
wonders how many other such acts don’t see the light of day because
the outcome was something less than a suicide. The perpetrators
deserve no pity.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.115. JS
DC
October 1st, 2010 8:70 am
Even if the young man had not been gay, this is still a crime.
Secretly taping someone having sex and broadcasting it on the internet
is still invasion of privacy — and just wrong. And unfortunately,
these two students probably would not have been charged with anything
if their victim had not killed himself. In addition to a national
conversation about respect and civility, we need a national
conversation (for young people at least) about technology and what is
and is not legal. Just because you can put something up on You Tube
doesn’t make it legal.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.116. Gordon
New York, NY
October 1st, 2010 8:11 am
I really thought this was a thoughtful and interesting piece.
“If the only tool you have is prison, then every problem looks like a
crime.”
Great point, and the great thing is that prison is not our only tool.
In fact, it’s one of our most ineffective tools. We should feel happy
that we have a society with so many levers to pull: media, schools,
sports teams, national celebrities, art – all can be directed at
educating people on the issue of societal homophobia and personal
privacy.
Recommended by 4 Readers
.117. Diogenes the Dawg
N. Padre Island, Tx.
October 1st, 2010 8:52 am
A fellow human being has needlessly and prematurely died. The two
fellow students who surreptitiously taped him like silent assassins
and then cruelly and callously posted the vidoe on the Internet so
that the whole world could mock him are surely just as guilty of his
death as if they had used a real knife to carve out his heart. It
never fails to amaze me how low people can casually sink for the
flimsiest of reasons.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.118. imatestcase
rural oregon
October 1st, 2010 8:54 am
Voyeurism and invasion of privacy are crimes.
It’s time we stopped calling them pranks.
Recommended by 8 Readers
.119. RonNYC
New York, New York
October 1st, 2010 9:80 am
Here’s my answer to this horrible situation: Gay groups should take
note of these two people’s names and keep them in mind. Wherever they
go in the U.S., there are going to be gay people (and of course anyone
else who believes their behavior is a hate crime) and those gay people
can make life difficult for them, shunning them, making sure
colleagues know who they are.
.120. Suzanne
New York
October 1st, 2010 9:12 am
#40 — by all means let’s do what we always do: Blame the victim.
Broadcasting a sex act and tweeting invitations to watch is “a poor
choice?” Really – just a poor choice? Eating fried food instead of
fresh vegetables is a poor choice. deciding to blow off an exam is a
poor choice. Humiliating someone for sport is more than a poor choice.
Do we consider drunk drivers as simply people who have made “a poor
choice” when their impaired driving is implicated in a a motor vehicle
fatality?.
Moreover, 18 year-olds are not children. 10 years old are children.
They can vote and go to war. If they are children then they shouldn’t
even be driving.
No not life in prison, but jail time. Absolutely.
Recommended by 5 Readers
121. Nancy
Brooklyn
October 1st, 2010 9:12 am
Don’t you think we raised our children to know better? What applies to
face-to-face interactions and etiquette should also apply to the
annonymous age of the internet. People of all ages seem to relish
putting someone else down on the web; they say awful and arrogant
things to lift themselves up (momentarily), thinking what they say or
message is important without care of the other side.
I do think those kids should be punished because they should’ve known
better. Every child should know that every action has a direct
consequence. If they are not punished by the courts, they should
definitely be disallowed on campus (anywhere).
Recommended by 1 Reader
.122. Aaron
New York
October 1st, 2010 9:16 am
It seems a little bit surprising that so many people are agreeing with
LJ at comment #6. The bat analogy is not very apt. If you hit someone
with a bat, you are intending to directly physically hurt them. Full
stop. You acted with intent of causing bodily harm, and being hit with
a blunt object directly causes death.
How many people do you know who got bullied or had someone do
something to embarrass them in their lives? Now of those people, how
many of them killed themselves? And therein, lies the difference in
the two.
Acting like these kids are murderers and stuffing them in jail does
nothing to solve the problem, it doesn’t address anything, and the
punishment does not fit the crime.
Recommended by 5 Readers
.123. John Culhane
Philadelphia
October 1st, 2010 9:28 am
WP from Philadelphia is right. Paul Butler completely overlooks the
plain fact that taping someone and then broadcasting it are two
separate crimes, with the latter carrying a potential criminal
sentence of five years! It is a crime. Now, whether it would be
possible to charge the defendant with some level of homicide is a
different question — that would be difficult to prove, but in
principle not impossible.
The facile equation of a “spurned lover” and a young closeted gay man
whose personal life is broadcast on the internet is an embarrassment,
and shows that Butler really doesn’t take this seriously.
Recommended by 6 Readers
.124. Mikael
PHL
October 1st, 2010 9:43 am
For goodness sake, we must treat the web like any other form of
communication. It’s a tool and can be used and abused like any other.
If the tool is used for evil, the evil-doer must be punished.
Recommended by 3 Readers
.125. Scott
Chicago
October 1st, 2010 9:48 am
Mr. Butler, I appreciate your comments. I would even further than your
spurned lover example, however, and point out that selectively
punishing bullies that cause suicide only encourages, rather than
discourages, suicide. In general, punishment should result from the
actions of the perpetrator, not the victim, lest the legal system
create some really perverse incentives.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.126. sadly
in america
October 1st, 2010 9:56 am
I’m a little astonished that the comments today and yesterday reflect
a sort of ignorance of what is on the internet. While it was certainly
wrong for these students to do this, I cannot believe that this does
not happen all the time. I wonder how many young women even know
whether their private sex acts are posted for all to see for all time.
The internet seems to contain so much of this stuff that I cannot
think that all of it is consensual. As low and despicable as it is,
really, do we all believe that this isn’t a common occurence on
college campuses as well as at high school and maybe even junior high
school parties?
Recommended by 3 Readers
.127. Shock and Awe
Atlanta, GA
October 1st, 2010 10:50 am
About 15 years ago American Pie was released containing one of the
most famous scenes in comedic history where the foreign exchange
student is taped via webcam changing. The two are subjected to
humiliation in front of a large crowd watching and theaters full of
people laughing uncontrollably. How would you have reacted if the next
scene jumped to both these kids committing suicide? If these Ravi and
Wei were good kids that made a terribly bad decision, but never
intended to cause physical harm (inflicting mental anguish, while
disgusting, was a norm in school. Anyone who doesn’t think so should
try being 16 again) read all of the rabid, foaming at the mouth
commentators that want them hung in the town square and then committed
suicide should those that made the comments be charged with
involuntary manslaughter or a hate crime?
Recommended by 5 Readers
.128. H. S. Rockwood III, Ph.D.
St Augustine, FL
October 1st, 2010 10:12 am
As the parent of a deceased suicidal daughter, I wish to throw in a
few thoughts about bullying in any form. Many might say that bullying
is simply an accepted, but frowned upon, part of young peoples’ social
interactions. The psychic damage the bullied person suffers can’t be
underestimated and often shapes that person’s future life and or
death. My loss occurred before technology created the on-line “social”
networks and the capacity to send webcam shots directly to the net. I
can’t imagine the added suffering my daughter would have experienced
if her bullyers had these taunting, terrible tools at hand. It is
often the already sensitive, shy, and, therefore, more vulnerable
children and adolescents that are the victims of malicious and
repeated bullying. I would recommend swift development of controls on
the rampantly increasing invasions of privacy that the cyberspace
phenomena have created.
Recommended by 7 Readers
.129. Nate
South Orange
October 1st, 2010 10:28 am
OK, so maybe these kids shouldn’t rot in jail for the rest of their
lives, but I’m appalled by the suggestion that there should be no
legal consequences at all. Regardless of their intent, the two had
every reason to expect that their actions would lead to harmful
consequences. We often hold people legally responsible in such
instances.
BTW–doesn’t it seem strange that teenagers who voluntarily distribute
explicit images of themselves (so-called sexting) are treated as sex
offenders and placed on registries, while the two Rutgers students are
offered general condemnation and a slap on the wrist? I agree that new
laws to address the complexities of digital communication are in
order.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.130. Gary
Virginia
October 1st, 2010 10:47 am
I agree with this column. Bullying, even at that age is a terrible
thing. But without a showing that these people are going unpunished
through lack of a law to charge them with, or complaints from judges
that the maximum punishment just causes defendants to laugh, there is
no cause for a new law.
Recommend Recommended
.131. Johnpaul
Chicago
October 1st, 2010 10:55 am
Should there be consequences for such callous and morally
reprehensible actions? Without doubt. Should these penalties be of a
legal nature, meted by local, state or federal authorities? With
regard to violations of privacy and/or harassment statutes, then most
certainly, and to the fullest extent. It should not, however, be the
purview of the law to govern social mores. We have societal
institutions already in place – the family, religion, education… –
charged with instilling a moral and ethical framework. We also possess
culturally punitive countermeasures – widespread exposure,
ostracization, stigmatization, public scorn, etc.- to apportion when
odious infractions of this nature do occur and engender such
justifiable outrage. Do these punishments seem equal to the crime?
Certainly not when considered against the untimely and senseless death
of a young man, especially when we perceive a direct and seemingly
incontrovertible causal chain of events. We would do well here,
nevertheless, not to confuse correlation with causation. The logic is
cold, and delivers little in the way of comfort, but it is vital in
the implementation of justice. To exact severe criminal penalties on
these miscreants would not be justice, but vengeance.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.132. Bea
UK
October 1st, 2010 11:16 am
NYTReader 67:
It would be one thing if youcaught the nanny having sex in your home
and decided to fire him/her.
And quite another if you decided to livestream it live to the whole
world.
Recommend Recommended
.133. Dee
USA
October 1st, 2010 11:37 am”Bullies “cause” suicides in the same way
that a man “causes” the suicide of a lover he spurns.”
Yes, yes, and yes, this is the correct thought process to look into
this. If Clementi is unable to face such ridicule or bullying, how is
he going to handle the rest of his adult life? Life is about strife,
and how you handle it is more important than the obstacle itself. Tons
of teenagers are ridiculed on a daily basis, and suicide is a direct
result of many things that are going on in that person’s life, not
just one isolated incident. There are multiple personal examples of
how people overcome such obstacles… it surprises me that some people
believe that taking one’s own life is the “solution” to the problems
in life – it is not.
The more prevalant issue is that Clementi is SCARED of growing up in a
society that shuns homosexuals. What does this say about us? If
anything, shame on us, not the roommate and his friend who just pulled
a childish prank. And believe me, if any of you believe they should be
thrown in jail because of this, then perhaps you should have a hard
look at yourselves and at our justice system which lets even child
rapists free.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.134. ASC
Boston, MA
October 1st, 2010 11:45 am
Clearly, as the people who instigated this sad tragedy have been
charged with, there was an invasion of privacy. Based on the comments
Mr Clementi posted last week, he was planning on bringing up the
invasion of privacy with the R.A. That’s exactly what an R.A. is for –
to deal with these kinds of abuses. My question is – what happened
with the R.A.? Was he/she ever contacted? How did they respond? The
R.A. is the “official” representative of Rutgers in this case, and it
would be their responsibility to (if the issue were raised) address
the situation appropriately (i.e., immediately remove the roommate
from the situation, etc., etc.) Hopefully Rutgers has a policy in
place for dealing with such situations.
.135. Ram
New York
October 1st, 2010 11:50 am
This was a tragedy, no question. I suspect the teens who did this were
overly influenced by movies such as “The Virginity Hit” and “American
Pie” where filming and broadcasting of private moments is treated as
comedy. No one was up in arms when Jim broadcasts his romp with Nadia,
despite Nadia no knowing about it. I guess it would have hit home if
they had Nadia commit suicide in the movie. My point here is that we
can all find obvious causes after something terrible happens and be
outraged after the fact, but along the way, we, the witnesses, and
even the perpetrators, are often not even considering that something
life-threatening is going on.
Bullying, unlike fighting, is asymmetrical and asynchronous. In a fist
fight, everyone knows that there’s a fight, who’s fighting, and knows
when its over. Bullying is not like that. It grows in the mind of the
victim and takes on a life of its own. The bully might not even be
aware of the consequences of their actions, and many would be contrite
if they did. Part of the solution at schools might be to have a formal
process run by the ombudsman to investigate situations like this
before they lead to extreme behavior.
Finally, self-destruction and destruction of others are both forms of
violence and should not be condoned, no matter how heart breaking the
circumstances.
.136. SqueakyRat
Providence RI
October 1st, 2010 12:21 am
The actions of Ravi and Wei were evil. They should be held responsible
for their consequences.
Recommend Recommended Recommended by 1 Reader
.137. George
NJ
October 1st, 2010 12:42 amOkay, is this commentary completely missing
the point, or is it me? In the case of Tyler, they did commit a crime
– Invasion of Privacy. In the case of Phoebe, they also committed a
crime – libel. Is this joker really not up-to-date on law?
.138. pkh
New York
October 1st, 2010 12:42 amIt is impossible for heterosexuals to
understand what it is like to live in a world where we, gays, must
live in fear. Our very nature–our genetic makeup, not our “lifestyle
choices”–are cast as “sinful”, “unnatural” or “strange” to name a few.
The assumption that suicide is a somehow illogical or unlikely
response to another human being sharing not just your sexuality, but
the acts themselves, with the world, is simply not based in reality.
Reality, I might add, created by heterosexuals who are all too
comfortable to allow gays to fight our own marriage battles, fight our
own privacy battles and fight our own equality battles. Rather than
speaking in euphemisms like “cyberbullying” or “deeper issues”, let’s
recognize that this is a country with a deep seated homophobia, which,
as is the case here, manifested itself if the unlawful voyeurism of a
dormitary roommate. It’s obvious why so many readers and writers have
searched for other explanations to Tyler’s suicide. To otherwise name
the cause would require looking in the mirror.
.139. Andrew J.
SF, CA
October 1st, 2010 12:51 amI don’t know whether or not these kids ought
to face jail time for what they did (abhorrent as it was), but I agree
with Mr. Butler that the greater tragedy is that we live in a culture
where a gay kid is so horrified that his sexual orientation might
become known that he would rather end his own life than face his
peers. No one should have to carry such fear in their hearts.
.140. Jane
Baltimore, MD
October 1st, 2010 1:30 pm
I must take issue strongly with the suggestion that bullying in such
cases is no more causal, and implies no more responsibility, than that
of a spurning another’s love. Mr. Butler’s analogy is faulty. The
first act is solely designed to inflict harm whereas the second is an
inadvertent result of an unfortunate circumstance. As a human in this
society, you have no obligation to continue loving someone; you do
have an obligation not to intentionally inflict harm. The degree of
intent to harm in Tyler’s case may be arguable to some people; for me,
I see my own gay son, 18 years old, as comfortable with his sexuality
as possible at this age, but alone in a new environment, ridiculed and
harassed for all the world to see, and want to personally throw the
perpetrators out a window.
141. Anon
NYC
October 1st, 2010 1:24 pm
Criminal laws cannot take the place of parenting. Our society does not
deem persons under age 21 to be mature enough to purchase alcohol but
we deem them responsible enough to understand and deal with
difference. More accurately, we do kids a disservice by teaching them
that they are wrong for even noticing differences instead of teaching
them how to constructively address and deal with them.
Had Ravi, Wei or Clemente known how to properly address thier
conflicting values and experiences they would have sought outside help
or counselling without shame and this entire situation may have been
avoided.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.142. Anthony
New York, NY
October 1st, 2010 1:36 pm
I think the people who are clamoring for prison have never been there
and do not truly know the harshness of such punishment. Just think for
a moment about losing five years of your life, even forgetting about
the physical, emotional, and sexual abuse one undergoes in prison?
That is a very harsh punishment. What these students did is
reprehensible, but they did not push this kid off a bridge. It is
dangerous territory to start holding people accountable for others’
suicides. As for freedom of speech, contrary to what others have said,
we DO have the freedom to speak maliciously and abusively, it is the
price we pay for freedom from the thought police. Many of those
speaking against the freedom of speech now would surely feel
differently if they sympathized with the speaker. That sort of
hypocrisy is the greatest danger to freedom of speech. We allow the
KKK and the Nazi party the right to speak because we refuse to allow
the majority to tell the minority it has to shut up or go to jail,
regardless of the unpopularity of the speech. If these kids had beat
Mr. Clementi up for being gay, that is one thing, but simply speaking
a disagreement with his lifestyle and seeking to shame him for it is
no different from speaking a disagreement with Catholicism, Judaism,
integration, even the right of certain ethnicities and races to life
at all — all types of speech which we protect. We cannot pick and
choose when to allow the freedom of speech based on our feelings about
the speech. Every act that is lamentable is not therefore criminal.
Sometimes, s*** happens. That is life. These bullies will live with
what happened and suffer ostracism for it. I think that is punishment
enough.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.143. BR
NJ
October 1st, 2010 1:53 pm
WAIT A MINUTE
This is not like the case of a spurned lover who commits suicide! How
dare you make that comparison. Someone who falls out of love with
someone does not intend to cause harm. The act here is an intentional
act. It was probably not intended to result in death, but it was
certainly intended to result in ridicule.
If I hit your car because I skidded on ice, you are damaged. If I hit
your car because I slammed on the gas and aimed right for you, you are
damaged and I committed a crime.
Your attitude is part of the problem with lack of responsibility and
accountability in our society. We need to honestly assess what the
motivations of this crime were and punish the criminals appropriately
for their intent and legal recklessness. (There is little question
that these students knew that their victim would be hurt. How hurt is
the question. If the answer is, as I suspect in this case, don’t know,
don’t care – there is a homocide here.)
Recommended by 1 Reader
.144. Will McClain
Los Angeles, CA
October 1st, 2010 2:00 pm
I don’t believe the two suspects should go to prison, regardless of
whether they are found guilty or not. I’ve been convicted of a crime
in my life and I know the self-imposed prison that results. I also
know that no one is unable to grow from their poor decisions. The two
individuals who did this deserve to be free to share their raw
experience with the rest of the world, not exiled from it. If they
show no remorse, then maybe I can understand the need to deal more
severely with them. Otherwise, I expect them to grow to a point far
beyond most of the individuals currently condemning them.
Recommend Recommended Recommended by 1 Reader
.145. Mark
New York, NY
October 1st, 2010 2:16 pm
This was a stupid prank, at about the same level of stupidity that I
remember from college, magnified, tragically, by technology that
thankfully was not around 35 years ago. There but for the grace of God
go I.
Mr. Ravi activated a camera in his own dorm room, and, delighting in
the coup he had accomplished, shared the pictures with others.
Does this warrant criminal prosecution? No. We would not even be
talking about it if Mr. Clementi had not thrown himself off a bridge,
and no one could reasonably have predicted that he would do that.
Mr. Ravi and Ms. Wei should be kicked out of Rutgers, and left to fend
for themselves to see where else they can get in.
Of course this was a horrible tragedy. Thoughtless and stupid actions
sometimes have horrible consequences, and thus we try to teach people
to avoid them. But the notion of a 10-year or 5-year sentence, or any
jail time at all, for Mr. Ravi or Ms. Wei is simply unjust.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.146. Paris
MA
October 1st, 2010 2:26 pm
Thank you for writing this – I agree 100%.
.147. FJP
NY, NY
October 1st, 2010 2:54 pm
Imagine there was a time when “merely” punishing one’s child by a
“good whipping”was considered OK, even with the welts, bruises, fear,
humiliation, and rage it led to . Since there was no law against it,
or at least as spelled out as today, one could have argued that there
were enough laws on the books, and folks needed education,
enlightenment, etc. That notion held until we started to reap the
wind.
We’re in the beginning of this cyberspace business, so possibkly more
data needs to come in to fashion adequate laws. It needs fixing soon…
not two generations from now.
Recommended by 1 Reader
.148. Miriam Hamsa Weinstein
Fairfax, CA
October 1st, 2010 3:00 pm
My son was expelled from a small college for taking a dorm frig out of
storage that belonged to someone else. He had been told by other
students that things in storage were up for grabs. When he learned it
belonged to someone on campus, he returned it. The other student said
it wasn’t an issue. He was expelled anyway. And I don’t think it took
more than a day for it to happen.
Young people today, raised on the media, violence, hypersexualization,
lack of privacy… have no moorings. In the days of claustrophobic small
communities in the 1950′s where everyone knew your business, this
egregious kind of behavior have been radically less likely to occur.
.149. In Japan
Tokyo
October 1st, 2010 3:11 pm
In that vein, manslaughter by drunk driving would not be punishable;
drunk drivers just intend to get home, not kill families in car
accidents. I agree that these kids were irresponsible but not
particularly malicious; however, they do not deserve to go completely
unscathed. We DO hold people responsible for consequences of
unintended action.
Also, just because there are 4000 current punitive codes does NOT mean
that there will be no need for more laws in the future. As technology
changes and society d(evolves), we need new laws to regulate action in
order to maintain order.
.150. W. Daniels
Boston, MA
October 1st, 2010 3:28 pm
I’m stunned at the degree that Prosecutor Butler is out of touch with
reality: “We don’t need any new criminal laws… If prosecutors can’t
find anything to charge a particular cyberbully with, that bully has
not committed a crime.” The drafters of our Constitution never
contemplated the technological changes in our society. What if in
1900, then President McKinley and our government said “we have enough
laws”. Would it not be illegal to run a red light? or would the Enron
executives not have gone to prison for wire-fraud; all because our
lawmakers didn’t have the foresight to anticipate changes in
technology?!
.151. Thoughtful
Oklahoma
October 1st, 2010 3:29 pm
I absolutely believe that cyberbullying should be punishable by law.
We are granted the right to free speech, including on the internet,
with the tacit assumption that it will not be abused. What happened to
this freshman during what must have been a difficult transition is
reprehensible, and the fact that Mr. Ravi was Mr. Clementi’s roommate
make it even more problematic. If it can be proven that, in fact, the
harassing and humiliating comments constituted a damaging threat to
Mr. Clementi’s emotional health, as in the case of Ms. Prince, those
responsible must be held accountable for their actions.
What I find more troubling, however, is a culture that makes coming
out so painful an experience that suicide becomes more appropriate.We
all have a part of the blame; let us blame a culture that still sees
it as acceptable to humiliate and defame others because of their
sexual orientation. Blame a culture that makes teenagers feel ashamed,
dirty, or evil because of whom they love.
Recommend Recommended
.152. Reader in Houston
Houston, TX
October 1st, 2010 3:36 pm
Perhaps, Mr. Butler, but your opinion speaks of a too-cool-headed
response that could be based either in indifference or fatigue. You
know the reason we have 4,000 federal laws? Because the federal
government doesn’t enforce the ones we have. Maybe if enforcers did
their jobs we wouldn’t need so many.
I question, though, if you “get” gay culture. Hip-hop culture hasn’t
especially been receptive to gay figures and homosexuality in that
culture of “gangstas” and tough streets has been marginalized. Do you
understand how intense the sense of isolation and helplessness are? Me
thinks not.
And you say that “If prosecutors can’t find anything to charge a
particular cyberbully with, that bully has not committed a crime.” You
may be right, but only in the statutory sense – in the moral sense,
you’re wrong. There was a clear violation here, and just because there
wasn’t a law to address it didn’t mean that a crime wasn’t committed.
Let me give you an example of this in action: on the infamous “The
Jenny Jones Show”, there was a program they did where they wanted to
do “ambush crushes” – where someone was brought on the show and was
told someone else they knew had a crush on them.
One guest to the show was a lower-class 20-something male. Another
guest who turned out to be this guy’s secret crush was…another guy.
The show was aired and was, predictably, a huge embarrassment to the
first guy, so much so that the first guy murdered the gay guy who
admitted a crush on him.
No one on “The Jenny Jones Show” went to jail. Not the host, the
producers, the directors, no one. (Google it if you’re curious about
the lurid details.)
Yes, it was bad judgment. Incredibly bad judgment. The show, of
course, is no longer on the air, the victim of low ratings. But was a
crime committed there? Yeah, in a sense, I think so.
My point here is, just because a law hasn’t been created for a
particular violation of something, if that violation sees the light of
day, doesn’t mean it’s not a crime. In the moral sense, it is. It just
means statutes haven’t caught up yet.
.153. Emily
Arcata, CA
October 1st, 2010 4:00 pmTo compare the relationships of spurning a
lover and the relationship between bully and bullyed is disingenuous.
When one lover leaves another, both people willingly entered the
relationship, however poorly it may have ended. What child do you know
that walked up to a bully and asked to be harassed, day in and day
out, now at school and at home? It’s been my experience that bullies
choose victims, and the less the victim accepts the situation, the
more the bully revels in it.
.154. Avid Rita
Cambridge
October 1st, 2010 4:12 pm
I appreciate the early publication of photographs of the two fun-
loving students who circulated the video publicly, and let’s remember
their names, Dharun Ravi and Molly Wei. There is also justice in
having their cold hearted and stupid acts follow them wherever they
go. Societal sanctions can be powerful, real shame can be powerful (as
Tyler Clementi has attested). Let the rest of their lives be deeply
affected, and let our culture feel that too.
.155. wdef
new Jersey
October 1st, 2010 4:23 pm
While I am not a fan of criminalizing everything, I am saddened that
someone who claims to be a legal scholar could write that the
consequences of an action and criminality hinge upon the intent, and
that isn’t always true. If my car slips on ice and my car plows into
another car and kills someone in an accident, that would be true, it
would be ruled an accidental death. If, however, drinking was found to
be part of the cause, or going too fast for conditions, I could be
charged with depraved indifference or vehicular manslaughter, even
though I had no intention of hurting anyone.
Likewise, if I greased the skids of a ladder someone was going to use
to paint their house, and they slipped and fell and hurt themselves, I
could be charged with a criminal offense, even though I thought it was
just a prank.
His argument reminds me of the recent argument about Edwards of the
Jets getting busted for DWI. People in his defense said things like
“he was pulled over for having smoked windows”, in effect saying he
wasn’t driving badly, so he shouldn’t have been busted, in effect it
is saying that because there was no evidence of driving drunk, somehow
it was no big deal. Braylon Edwards didn’t intend to hurt anyone and
obviously believed that his drinking and driving was no big deal, so
why is his DWI a crime? In this case and Braylon edwards, we had
people who did something without bad intent, who weren’t thinking of
the consequences, but in the case of DWI we say you are guilty even if
nothing happened, and if in a DWI, whatever the intent, if something
happens because of it you are guilty of a much bigger crime. The clown
in this case may not have thought off the consequences, but there
were, and the fact that he didn’t intent it makes no difference
legally.
As far as his denial that suicide in the case of bullying should not
be chargable, he is dead wrong. Yes, the burden is upon the prosecutor
to prove that link, to show direct causality of the action and the
suicide, but if they can then it does matter. Arguing that few kids
commit suicide when bullied is a ridiculous argument, and quite
frankly odious. If 999,999 kids out of 1 million get bullied and don’t
commit suicide, and 1 does, that one is a crime. The statistical
argument is basically that if 99.99% of bully victims don’t commit
suicide then the few that do couldn’t be caused by bullying, and that
fails for a major reason. Human psychology is not chemistry; if a
particular result happens 99.9% of the time in chemistry, that
indicates the result is the expected. With human psychology, the fact
that 99.99% of the people respond one way doesn’t mean the .01%
responding differently are noise, it means that in some cases the
response is different due to individual human nature. Plus quite
frankly with bullying we don’t even know the ultimate cause of it,
because there hasn’t been long term tracking. Who is to know if the
kid who spent his teenage years being bullied didn’t kill himself when
he was 22 as a result of it? The author is assuming that it only
matters if it happens right after.
As for this comment “They are kids! All of them. Why is this being
elevated to this level? Yes, it’s wrong to bully, but it also wrong to
bully the bully. Show a little respect for reason, and stop jumping to
conclusions about the absolute nature of evil.” it sounds like it is
written by someone who is either someone just as stupid as those who
did it, or who laugh at bullying and say “kids will be kids”.
First of all, these weren’t “kids” the perpetrator is 18, not 9. When
we are 18 we can enter into contracts, we can fight in the military,
get married, get a job, etc as adults, we are assumed to have adult
judgement in a legal sense. A 9 year old is a kid, who doesn’t fully
understand what they are doing; an 18 year old, while not fully
mature, if expected to be at a point where they can understand the
consequences of their action. Unless the guy doing this was found to
be mentally diminished (doubtful for a Rutgers student), then he is
not a kid. To argue differently is to diminish what they did as a
childish prank that is no big deal; when the roomate chose to do what
he did, several times, he was acting in a way he should have nown
better.
If it can be shown that the victim was otherwise okay,that if he
otherwise wouldn’t have committed suicide if it wasn’t for this bozo,
then the perp should be charged with depraved indifference, the same
way as if he had caused the victims death by other means, like
smearing peanut butter on someone’s bed who was deathly allergic to
peanut butter (which would be true even if he didn’t know the victim
was allergic). Stupid acts if they are found negligent are punishable
under the law.
They are kids! All of them. Why is this being elevated to this level?
Yes, it’s wrong to bully, but it also wrong to bully the bully. Show a
little respect for reason, and stop jumping to conclusions about the
absolute nature of evil.
.156. PLC
Los Angeles
October 1st, 2010 4:38 pm
Paul Butler says, “When people are punished, it should be for the harm
that they intend to do. “
Does this include the drunk driver who didn’t intend to kill the
people he hit?
.157. John
NC
October 1st, 2010 4:43 pm
Mark — there, but for the grace of God, go you? Do you mean to say
that, as a maturing young adult, technology-willing, you would have
mindfully and surreptitiously planned and recorded a deeply intimate,
private act of your room-mate and broadcast it publicly, without
warning or consent, as widely as technologically possible for the
purposes of ridicule and humiliation?
All I can say is that I’m glad I wasn’t at your institution of higher
learning at the same time you were. But for the grace of God!
Recommend Recommended
.158. Syllogizer
San Jose
October 1st, 2010 5:10 pm
Butler’s commentary on the issue is a sad testimony to the
incompetence of prosecutors. Even his misuse of the English language
shows he cannot understand the simple reasoning even more necessary to
handling the great moral and legal issues he tries to tackle in this
article.
Give us a break! “Every tragedy shouldn’t lead to prison”? Surely he
meant, “Not every tragedy should lead to prison”. Does he really now
know the difference? Then no wonder he has earned the even sharper
criticism so many comments in this blog have exposed him to. No wonder
so many cannot believe Butler can understand even the elements of law
and human decency.
For that matter, could he have really meant what he said, when he
said, “When people are punished, it should be for the harm that they
intend to do”. We are in even worse shape than I thought if a
prosecutor does not understand the difference between murder and
manslaughter — or why the law punishes both, though differently.
Why does GWU employ such an incompetent ignoramus as a professor?
.159. Eclepticearth
USA
October 1st, 2010 5:27 pm
I agree. Not every tragedy is the result of criminal behavior. And not
all bad behavior is criminal. And not all criminals belong in jail. We
already win the prize for putting more of our citizens in jail than
any other country in the world. In a society that endorses diversity,
we should expect that people will have trouble with diversity.
Harassment and invasion of privacy already are crimes, and if these
two children (perhaps over 18, but still children, I will venture a
guess that they have not yet had to live on their own wits and
resources) have crossed those lines, they deserve a day in court.
Nothing will bring back life to Tyler Clementi, but vengeance is not
what justice is all about. If their actions contributed to Tyler’s
death, any punishment the law provides for should allow for who they
are to be part of the equation, as we would expect if we were on
trial. Are they repeat offenders. Are they sorry. Are they apt to do
it again? Is their no other penance that jail?
Recommended by 1 Reader
.160. Rhonda
Alexandria
October 1st, 2010 5:18 pm
Perhaps this guy watches “America’s Funniest Videos.” Millions of
people love watching shows where people pull pranks that embarrass
others. What about “punked” and “boiling point” and the scary date
show on BET. This is the kind of stuff young people have grown up
with. It would be nice to read articles written by young journalists
who understand this phenomena. Too many old fogeys in the media rush
to judgment and slap “news” on the air or in the paper to be the
“first.” There’s a lot that needs to be sorted out. The best articles
will be the last articles, not these bits of news. Finally, how many
people have committed suicide after someone insulted them, divorced
them, fired them, etc? Those people are not prosecuted for murder. And
I can’t see it as a hate crime, as defined by law. Millions of people
make fun of and pull pranks on gay and lesbian people, black and
hispanic people, disabled, and so forth.
Recommended by 2 Readers .
161. Anthony
New York, NY
October 1st, 2010 5:46 pm
Who has not played a thoughtless, mean, and stupid prank on someone in
their lives or engaged in thoughtless, mean, and stupid conduct? Sure,
it would be factually different, but what if that someone had decided
to kill themselves? Maybe you pantsed someone and they couldn’t take
the humiliation. Maybe you blabbed about some embarrassing thing
another person had gotten into. Maybe you called someone a terrible
name or said a horrible thing to them because you were too mad or
stupid to realize how hurtful you were being. People who are older and
didn’t grow up with the current technology don’t seem to generally
understand, but one would hope people could be less sanctimonious and
realize that it could very easily have been you in the place of these
two students. I feel that some of the loudest voices may come from
those who are the most thankful that their terrible actions haven’t
resulted in similar results. Learn from this episode and try to change
your treatment of others. We could all be better people.
Recommended by 2 Readers
.162. buckeye jim
Columbus OH
October 1st, 2010 5:48 pm
Mr. Peck from Woodstock, New York (#40), I’m sorry but your comment is
so very wrong on two accounts. First, your analysis of the motives of
suicide are total hateful ignorant bunk. Second, the actions of others
caused someone else’s death. Regardless of the religious system or
judicial codes, societies since antiquity have always deemed that a
crime that requires appropriate punishment.
Recommend Recommended
…and I am Sid Harth
Conflict, Hindu Society, History, Hot Off The Presses, Indian society,
News, Views and Reviews, Religious fundamentalism
02/10/2010
« No News is Good News
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/10/02/pakistan-graveyard-of-democracy/
Pakistan, Graveyard of Democracy
Are times a-changin’ in Pakistan?
By Daud Khattak, September 30, 2010 Thursday, September 30, 2010 –
12:16 PM Share
Two and a half years of fragile democracy, war against terror,
devastating floods, economic slow-downs, millions of displaced people,
and now calls from the self-exiled leader of Urdu-speaking community
in Karachi, Altaf Hussain, for a French-style “revolution.”
Meanwhile, some of Pakistan’s radical television personalities have
created an environment on their shows where politicians, retired
military generals and pro-establishment politico-religious leaders
confront each other-creating a sense of uncertainty and showing
complete indifference among Pakistan’s elite to the genuine issues of
the people. This sense has only been exacerbated by the failure of
Pakistan’s government to bring about real reform. But will the chaotic
internal situation in Pakistan provide another opportunity for the
powerful Pakistani military establishment to intervene?
Indeed, it seems that now it may be, once again, the generals’ turn —
but this time the army may not return on the forefront of Pakistani
politics, preferring instead to play a role behind the scenes. It is
not in the military’s interest to further tarnish its image
internationally when the whole country is devastated by floods and
violence, and badly needs global support to pursue (and fund) its
relief, recovery and reconstruction agenda. The meeting this week
between Pakistani Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani and
the current government leaders has shown the increasing willingness of
the army to aggressively push for changes in the government’s behavior
and composition behind closed doors, rather than through tanks in the
street.
Many Pakistanis believe the three ‘As’ – Allah, Army and America – are
responsible for nearly anything good or bad happening in the country.
But while Allah and America are not being discussed this time as much
as they were in the past, it is the Army that currently gets much of
the focus.
No one wants the generals to take over the government again. But the
same time, it seems equally very difficult, if not impossible, to
remove the elected government or force real change through
constitutional means.
Under Pakistan’s constitution, opposition groups need 172 members in
Pakistan’s parliament out of 342 seats to bring a ‘No Confidence’
motion and reverse the elected government, and with it the prime
minister. Yet because the Pakistan People’s Party and its allies enjoy
a dominant electoral position, this vote seems unlikely to occur.
Impeaching the president would be even more difficult, as this vote
requires a two-thirds majority (295 votes) to succeed.
A direct intervention from the military, though it can not be ruled
out completely, does not seem to be a viable option; not only does the
Pakistani army not have a positive image in the west (in particular
due to its perceived failure to fully fight militant groups within its
borders), but in Pakistan itself the history of past military leaders,
such as Pervez Musharraf and Zia ul-Haq, does not leave many pining
for the return of a military dictator.
The alternative, in this scenario, is for the army to force the
elected president and prime minister to quit, form a national
government and arrange another general election, as was done four
times in the 1990s. Yet this scenario, too, would still be the army
playing the major and crucial role, though behind the scenes; this is
what now-retired Gen. Abdul Waheed Kakar did with the elected prime
minister Nawaz Sharif in 1994. And the current army chief Gen. Kayani
essentially forced the government to restore Chief Justice of the
Supreme Court Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry to his post during the
protests from the so-called “lawyers’ movement.”
However, even this alternative does not seem to be workable. President
Asif Ali Zardari, has been recognized by his allies as a man of strong
nerves and willpower, and once told local media that he would not
leave the presidential house even if he was threatened with being
taken out in an ambulance.
What now?
In the past week and a half three high level and emergency meetings of
the government allies have been held following rumors about changes in
the government. Former dictator Pervez Musharraf has announced the
launching of the manifesto for his own party on October 1 while his
previous colleagues of the Pakistan Muslim League, nicknamed the
“King’s Party” for their support of the country’s generals, are
forming new alliances to form the “All Pakistan Muslim League.”
The main opposition party, run by former premier Nawaz Sharif, the
Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz, has severed its ties with the government
and started an anti-government drive with increased zeal and
enthusiasm. As previously discussed, Altaf Hussain is openly calling
for the generals to intervene to reform Pakistani politics. The
leaders in poverty-stricken Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Baluchistan are
crying foul over the neglect and slow release of promised aid money
from the central government.
Meanwhile, the media also looks increasingly hostile to the civilian
government. More air time recently has gone to criticism of the
government’s policies and blame of the government for the current mess
in the country. And the media is saturated with pictures and videos of
military officials distributing food items and building bridges and
roads. Despite some criticism of the army’s very selective approach to
the relief and rehabilitation activities in the wake of the disastrous
flooding, people on the whole seem to consider the military their only
hope for assistance and governance.
All of these indicators point towards some kind of “change” – maybe in
the next few months, if not in the days or weeks ahead.
Only time will tell.
Daud Khattak is a Pashtun journalist currently working for the Radio
Free Europe/Radio Liberty’s Pashto-language station Radio Mashaal.
T RUTH
2:29 PM ET
September 30, 2010
Who really cares?
…..if the Pakistanis are content being Pathetikstan?
MARTY MARTEL
5:47 PM ET
September 30, 2010
Sooner or later, Pakistani Army will take over
First of all even now, democracy is at the mercy of Pakistani Army.
Witness how current government was almost bulldozed into extending
Kayani’s term as Army Chief. Witness how Kayani overruled civilian
government’s choice of all powerful ISI’s chief.
Current democratic government is not successful in fighting militants
within its borders. Since it the Army that is doing most of the
fighting with militants within Pakistani borders anyway, Musharraf
policy of only fighting with selective group of militants continues.
Civilian government has NOT been able to get Kayani’s Army to invade
Afghan Taliban groups residing in North Waziristan and Quetta, from
where those groups controlled by Mullah Omar, Haqqani and Hekmatyar
continue to stage cross-border raids in Afghanistan and return beck to
their bases in Pakistan with impunity.
Witness how Pakistani government was able to stop NATO’s supply trucks
at the border but is freely allowing Afghan Taliban fighters to cross
the same border graciously.
After having continued to support, sustain and shelter Afghan Taliban
groups within its own borders who are conducting Taliban insurgency in
Afghanistan, Pakistani President Zardari had the temerity to suggest
that US/NATO mission in Afghanistan is failing and US needs to look at
some other solution, conveniently ignoring the fact that it is his own
government that is sustaining Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan in the
first place.
With Pakistani economy in such dire straits and flooding making it all
the more worse, naturally Pakistani Army has NO desire to stage a coup
right now.
But Mr. Daud Khattak’s wishful thinking notwithstanding, Pakistani
Army will stage a coup, sooner or later under some pretext or the
other.
LEONJA
11:03 AM ET
October 1, 2010
sooner or later/reply to Marty Martel
note to author:
Spoken like a true “diplomat.”
What is the meaning of, “…some pretext or the other?”
There is only one viable pretext/orchestrator of this supposed
impending coup (which I happen to agree will take place in the
foreseeable future.)
I believe the United States has become a phantom of its former self.
We are coup happy!!!
Sadly, many lives will be compromised at-large; there will not be any
accountability for civilian casualties and if pinned down, our
government will issue its standard issue response with a preponderance
of “democracy rhetoric.” We might also think to throw out some
humanitarian reasoning to include concern for the common good and
welfare/safety of all nations under God.
We’ve been pushing for dominance in Pakistan for some time and the
reason for this probably has more to do with the natural gas and oil
reserves in the Stan regions than regional stability or even the
Taliban.
A rose is a rose is a rose, to put it nicely.
The will to power is a heavy burden and the price very high. I
personally wish my family members and those I love were not being
dispatched to this region because I see only danger and the face of a
phantom ghost-rider.
DR. KUCHBHI
10:24 AM ET
October 1, 2010
Democracy is the worst form of government ..
except for all the others….
It is messy, prone to open airing of differences, exposure of
corruption. But thanks to all these steam outlets, it is “arguably”
more inclusive and more likely to absorb that best antiseptic –
sunlight…
It’s a pity that Pakistanis lack the patience to tackle these issues
more patiently.
DR. KUCHBHI
10:24 AM ET
October 1, 2010
Democracy is the worst form of government ..
except for all the others….
It is messy, prone to open airing of differences, exposure of
corruption. But thanks to all these steam outlets, it is “arguably”
more inclusive and more likely to absorb that best antiseptic –
sunlight…
It’s a pity that Pakistanis lack the patience to tackle these issues
more patiently.
SIDROCK23
10:39 AM ET
October 1, 2010
if america would shut up for once
if america would shut for once and let a country handle its own
matters we might get somewhere. a country like pakistan needs a strict
and disicplined government to run it. the civilian government on
pakistan is full of uneducatd, illiterate, and corrupt morons who only
care about their nice “flats” in london and when the next biryani
dinner is. an army take over in pakistan is not only needed but the
best form of government for a country with as many problems as
pakistan. perhaps they can follow the turkey’s path where the military
lays the path for demoracy, and when they see it is not working on
going on the wrong path, than they intervene. however, this could
work, but americans won’t shutup about “demoracy and liberty” even
though they love dictators in saudi arabia, egypt, and jordan.
…and I am Sid Harth
Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)
•Fatima Bhutto Fries Zardari’s Ass: Sid Harth
•A Dream for Peace in Pakistan
•Kings and Queens of democracy
•The Beauty of Pakistani Democracy
Economy, History, Hot Off The Presses, News, Views and Reviews,
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02/10/2010
« Hindu Hoodlum Dharun Ravi Scandal Update
navanavonmilita
<a href="http://www.deccanherald.com/content/101231/revealed-high-
drama-inside-courtroom.html">Revealed: High drama inside the
courtroom</a>
B S Arun, Lucknow, Oct 1, DH News Service:
They came in metal trunks, locked and under heavy security.
The Ayodhya judgments, delivered by the three judges of the Lucknow
Bench of the Allahabad High Court on Thursday, had taken abundant
caution on one of the most highly expected verdicts in decades.
Justice Dharam Veer Sharma, who retired on Friday, had ensured that
the bundles inside the trunk had one more protective cover – they were
wrapped in cloth.
As they entered the packed court hall at the scheduled time of 3:30 pm
sharp on Thursday, the three judges – Justice S U Khan, Justice S
Agarwal and Justice Sharma – asked the copies of their judgments be
kept on the table in front of them. However, Justice Agarwal had to
ask some of his 21-volume judgment to be removed as advocates
complained that they “were not able to see him” because of the
mountain of judgment volumes in front of him. The judge obliged them.
Describing the court room scene to Deccan Herald, senior Supreme Court
advocate K N Bhat said on Friday: “The three judges, as soon as they
sat down, thanked counsels for their support. Then the senior most
judge Justice Khan started reading his judgment followed by Justice
Agarwal and Justice Sharma. The reading of the operative part of the
verdict was over by 4:45 pm”.
There were 42 seats for advocates and their clients – none else was
allowed - inside the court hall where the judgment was pronounced.
“Justice Agarwal saw me sitting at a corner in the hall along with
Sunni Wakf Board lawyer Zafaryab Jilani and asked me, have you shifted
sides? I told him Jilani may require my support. Jilani, however,
immediately retorted”, Bhat, who represented the Ram Lalla and
Janmasthan, plaintiffs in the dispute, said.
The Lucknow Bench had declared half a day holiday for the court and
the entire premises were cleared of people – except for security
forces – by 1 pm. The court hall was opened only at 3:15 pm, after the
bomb squad gave a final clearance.
The court had unprecedented security. The vehicles of the counsels had
to be parked at a distance after which they had to walk through
several layers of security.
“I, along with others, had to walk past 5-6 security check-posts. The
cellphones had to be deposited at a separate place away from the court
hall. I had never ever seen such security in my entire professional
career. I have witnessed late prime minister Indira Gandhi being
brought to court but this type of security was not there then”,
remarked Bhat, a former additional solicitor general of India.
By: asif
On: 02 Oct 2010 11:01 am
, ok verdict is over, now what is next? can the culprits be behind
bars? why advani , murlimanohar joshi and others are silent like a
coma patient in hospital? government should take severe action against
all who have taken part in the crime.... , being the leaders doing
such mistake how can we belive that they will lead the country or the
part in good mannur,
By: citizen
On: 02 Oct 2010 01:22 pm
Destruction of Babri Masjid was certainly wrong because Indians cannot
be compared to Mughals. Indians had been always kind. But while we are
anxious to see the culprits of Babri demolishers are punished let us
not forget those who destroyed thousands of temples across India. Let
us at least regret and pray that God forgive them,they did not know
what they were doing.
By: Samdani
On: 02 Oct 2010 10:11 am
This is all a game played and fixing for which India is famous. Just
think from where do these so called politicians earn there living.
With there so called little salary are they able to satisfy there home
needs. No way at all. They are worst than a beggar or called street
dog. At least street dog does not live his street and peep other
street. This is all a high drama where they alterted a high security
and there was nothing...there is a saying in hindi KHODA PAHAD NIKHLA
CHUHA.......THIS IS THE FATE OF INDIAN POLITICIANS
navanavonmilita
http://cogitoergosum.co.cc/2010/10/02/forget-cwg-xix-enjoy-hhg-xx-hindu-hoodlums-games/
Ayodhya divides Hindus too
Anirban Bhaumik, Lucknow:
The divisive Mandir-Masjid dispute of Ayodhya now seems to be dividing
the Hindus too. Two days after the three-judge Lucknow bench of the
Allahabad High Court delivered its verdict on the row, the Nirmohi
Akhara, which got one-third of the disputed site, seems all set to
move the Supreme Court, not only to carry on its protracted legal
battle against the Sunni Central Wakf Board, but also to take on the
Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP).
The High Court’s verdict gave Nirmohi Akhara—a Vaishnavite sect of the
Hindus—a share of the disputed site’s outer courtyard, where the Ram
Chabootra, Sita Rasoi and Bhandar Griha once stood. But the control of
the makeshift temple of Ram Lalla (infant Ram) was given to VHP
activist and lawyer Trilok Nath Pande, who succeeded Deoki Nandan
Agarwal in one of the title suits.
“We will move the SC, not only to seek ownership of the entire 2.77-
acre plot, but also to get our right on the sanctum sanctorum of the
Ram temple,” said Nirmohi Akhara Chief, Bhaskar Das.
The Akhara would soon have a meeting of its senior functionaries to
decide the next course of action.
The HC’s order meant that the VHP would control the Ram temple and
manage the affairs of Ram Lalla through the Ram Lalla Virajman, the
trust that symbolically is the legal guardian or friend of infant Ram.
It is now run by Pande who took over after Agarwal passed away in
2002.
The VHP leaders have already indicated that they would give the trust
an institutional framework and expand it by inducting more members.
But it made clear that Nirmohi Akhara would not be given the sole
right to control the affairs of Ram Lalla.
The Nirmohi Akhara, however, is not keen to let the VHP get control of
the makeshift temple, where the idol of Ram Lalla is now kept.
Raghuvar Das, former chief of the Akhara, had in 1885 filed a title
suit in a Faizabad court, seeking permission to build a temple on the
outer courtyard of the disputed structure. The suit was dismissed and
status quo maintained.
After the idol of Ram was allegedly mysteriously placed inside the
disputed structure in the intervening night of December 22-23 in 1949,
the shrine was placed under the custody of a receiver appointed by
Faizabad district administration. The authorities also ensured worship
of the idol by a priest. The Nirmohi Akhara filed another suit on
December 17, 1959, demanding control of the property.
“We have been pursuing a legal battle against the receiver and seeking
control of the makeshift temple since the last 50 years. If it is
being returned, we should get it and not someone who laid claim only
in 1989,” said Bhaskar Das, referring to the writ petition filed by
Agarwal on July 1, 1989, seeking to be appointed ‘sakha’ or friend of
Ram Lalla and control of the makeshift temple.
Das, now 82, alleged that the VHP had never consulted with Nirmohi
Akhara even after getting involved in the legal battle through Pande.
“We have the first right on Ram Lalla and we want our right back,” he
said.
The makeshift temple is now controlled by Faizabad Commissioner Rajiv
Krishna and the idol is worshipped by Satyendra Das, a priest
appointed by the authorities.
Mulayam Singh must seek pardon for Ayodhya comments
Lucknow, Oct 2, (IANS):
A Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Saturday demanded that Samajwadi
Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav should seek pardon for his comments
that the Allahabad High Court’s verdict on the Ayodhya dispute was
based on belief and not legalities and evidences.
“His (Yadav’s) comments are extremely unfortunate…He must seek pardon
from the people of this country, particularly the natives of Ayodhya,”
said Vinay Katiyar, BJP national vice-president, Saturday while
speaking to reporters in Faizabad district, some 150 km from Lucknow.
“On behalf of the residents of the holy Ayodhya city, I demand that
Mulayam Singh must bow his head at the Ram Lalla (the makeshift temple
at the disputed site) and seek pardon,” he added. Katiyar alleged that
Yadav’s comments are intended to solicit support from the minority
community.
“It is a desperate attempt to win back the Muslims…It’s disgraceful
that Mulayam Singh is exploiting the issue for appeasement of
Muslims,” Katiyar said. A special three-judge bench of the Allahabad
High Court’s Lucknow bench Thursday by a majority verdict ruled that
the place where the Babri Masjid in Ayodhya stood, before it was razed
by Hindu mobs in 1992, was indeed the birthplace of Hindu god Ram.
It also ruled that the entire disputed land in Ayodhya, a riverside
temple town in Uttar Pradesh, should be divided among the Sunni
Central Waqf Board, the Ram temple and the Nirmohi Akhara, a Hindu
sect and an original litigant in the case.
SRK happy with India’s maturity on Ayodhya verdict
New Delhi, Oct 2, (IANS):
Bollywood superstar Shah Rukh Khan says he is proud of the maturity of
the countrymen in supporting the Ayodhya verdict, and hopes that the
judgment will unite the nation.
“Equal distribution of land hopefully will lead to equal acceptance of
each other’s beliefs. Happy at maturity and patience countrymen have
shown,” Shah Rukh posted on his Twitter page late Friday.
He said: “1/3 of heart for family. 1/3 to work. 1/3 for pumping blood.
All get passing marks and heart still beats for my country. All good
knock on wood.”
The actor, a devout Muslim who married Hindu heartthrob Gauri Chhibber
almost 20 years ago, was the point of debate as an icon of religious
unity at a three-day conference which ended Saturday at a Vienna
University.
“There was a conference on me in Vienna. Was humbled and proud that
Indian cinema is becoming a global platform for discussion,” he said.
While he has been shooting for his home production “Ra.One” for some
time, he is now preparing to shoot for “Don 2”.
“Looking forward to just being a star on sets. Being a producer
doesn’t allow u (you) that on ‘Ra.One’,” he tweeted.
Ayodhya verdict: Jamiat leader calls for restraint
New Delhi, Oct 2, (IANS):
Leading Muslim organisation Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind Saturday asked people
to practise restraint in their reaction to the Ayodhya verdict and
said that, given the sensitivity of the issue, it was not appropriate
to take hasty decisions.
“According to the teachings of Quran, we should try to seek the
positive out of apparently negative things,” an official statement
quoted Rajya Sabha MP and Jamiat leader Maulana Mahmood Madani.
Stressing on avoiding expression of individual stands on this subject,
Madani, a Rashtriya Lok Dal MP from Uttar Pradesh, said: “There is
need to study the judgment first in detail and hold a meeting of all
Muslim groups to make a consensus on future course of action. We are
firm to act upon whatever unanimous decision will be taken by them.”
A special three-judge bench of the Allahabad High Court’s Lucknow
bench Thursday ruled in a majority verdict that the place where the
Babri Masjid in Ayodhya stood, before it was razed by Hindu mobs in
1992, was indeed the birthplace of Hindu god Ram.
It also ruled that the entire disputed land in Ayodhya, a riverside
temple town in Uttar Pradesh, should be divided among the Sunni
Central Waqf Board, the Ram temple and the Nirmohi Akhara, a Hindu
sect and an original litigant in the case.
…and I am Sid Harth
News, Views and Reviews
02/10/2010
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