Welcome!!!
Bohdan Rekshynskyj
Pryvit!
Welcome to the new group alt.current-events.ukraine! Let's start the
discussions by examining the issues such as:
*) The "nuke" treaty with Russia and the U.S.
*) The Crimean crisis and its relation to constitutional law.
*) The upcoming elections.
*) Any other political situation.
z povahoyu,
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
P.S. - be sure to have those killfiles ready, chuckle!
Max Pyziur
: Pryvit!
: Welcome to the new group alt.current-events.ukraine! Let's start the
: discussions by examining the issues such as:
: *) The "nuke" treaty with Russia and the U.S.
: *) The Crimean crisis and its relation to constitutional law.
: *) The upcoming elections.
: *) Any other political situation.
These seem to better fit into a category that possibly could be called
ongoing issues. Current events is a category suited to specific things
such as natural disasters (the flood of '93, the LA or any other quake for
that matter) or specific things such as the bombing of the World Trade
Center.
: z povahoyu,
: Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
: P.S. - be sure to have those killfiles ready, chuckle!
Uvaha Bohdane; my vsi tut dorosli. Nas ne treba traktuvaty yak malykh.
z povahoyu
Joel Furr
Say "good night," Bohdan. This group has been rmgrouped globally by
myself and by Ron Jarrell, and we both correctly noted that
alt.current-events is for short-term events and groups that don't stay
around forever. By attempting to create a substitute for
talk.politics.ukraine, you appear not to have understood this.
In any case, very, very few sites will receive this group, so you
completely and totally wasted your time. Better you had listened to us
in the first place and directed discussion of these events to
soc.culture.ukrainian or talk.politics.soviet.
Better luck next time.
dragon_fly
>
>
> Pryvit!
>
> Welcome to the new group alt.current-events.ukraine! Let's start the
> discussions by examining the issues such as:
>
> *) The "nuke" treaty with Russia and the U.S.
> *) The Crimean crisis and its relation to constitutional law.
> *) The upcoming elections.
> *) Any other political situation.
>
>
>
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
>
>
> P.S. - be sure to have those killfiles ready, chuckle!
Actually BohdAnus does not have to worry much. Russian imperialists would take
good care of his and other Okraninians' Turkish asses very soon. Meanwhile we can
continue our civilized and thoughtful discussions on Turko-Ukrainian themes in which
I anticipate Hasan Mutlu to join his Ukrainian brethren on half note.
So let's start with the English translation of the following report on
the savage exploitation of Ukrainians by Russian imperialists:
> From: bur...@helios.TN.CORNELL.EDU (Sergei Burkov)
> Subject: X-post from Sovokinform
> -Rabochie iz stran SNG (Ukrainy, Belorusii, ...) ezdyat za granicu na
> valyutnye zarobtki, zhivut v komnatah po 8 chel, ne edyat, ne p'yut,
> a beregut valyutu, dlya doma, dlya sem'i. Para mesyacev takoj raboty
> daet deneg bol'she, chem godovaya zarplatta v hohlobaksah ili zajchikah.
> Nichego udivitel'nogo? A figa! Zagranica - e'to Rossiya, a valyuta -
> rossijskij rubl'. V Rossii takim manerom rabotaet 300-400 tys ukraincev.
> Bolee togo, teper', po zakonu, nuzhno imet' rossijskuyu grin cartu
> ili hotya by ^work permit.^ Rabotadatel' v Rossii imeet pravo nanyat'
> inostranca tol'ko esli na dolzhnost' ne pretenduet rossijskij grazhdanin
> Uzhe sdelano isklyuchenie dlya studentov, deyatelej nauki i kul'tury.
> Na ocheredi rossijskie J1, F1, H1 vizy?
The workers from CIS countries (the Ukraine, Belorus, ...) are going abroad
to work for hard currency, living by 8 people in one room, not eating, not drinking,
saving hard currency for home, for family. A couple of months of such work
gives more money than an annual salary in karbovanets or zaichiks.
Nothing surprising ? Come on ! The "abroad" here means Russia, and
"hard currency" - rubles. Now there are more than 300-400 thousand Ukrainians
working in Russia in such a way. However by law one has to have a Russian
"green card" or at least work permit. The employer in Russia has a right
to hire a foreigner only if the position is not claimed by a Russian citizen.
However there are exceptions for students, scholars...
Are there Russian J1,F1,H1 visas to come soon ?
Wholeheartly ad infinum,
Dragon
223...@msu.edu
ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) writes:
>>>> "JF" == Joel Furr <jkf...@snarf.eecs.umich.edu> writes:
>JF> alt.current-events is for short-term events and groups that don't
>JF> stay around forever.
>
>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
Yes.
>-- MIME mail is welcome.
>Eugene N. Tyurin ( ITP @ SUNYSB ; HOST = insti.physics.sunysb.edu )
>Internet: gene@HOST ; World Wide Web: http://HOST:80/~gene/plan.html
># Ken Thompson: When in doubt, use brute force.
Basil
Alexander Rylyakov
>>
>>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>
>Yes.
>
Answering "Yes!" when asked "Why?" sounds like
"Vsegda!" when asked "Vashe politicheskoe kredo?"
Sasha.
Eugene Tyurin
JF> alt.current-events is for short-term events and groups that don't
JF> stay around forever.
Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
--
Michael Burianyk
No offense to you Joel, but for those of us who are perhaps not totally up
on usenet, the alt. hierarchy, etc., etc., could you please tell us who you
and who Ron Jarrell are and what powers you have to 'rmgroup' globally
so that "very few sites will receive this group"?
One of the perceptions I had about usenet was that it was a democracy.
This 'rmgroup' act of yours doesn't seem democratic.
Also if you can 'rmgroup' alt.current-events.ukraine, please let us know who
has the power to 'rmgroup' alt.current-events.russia, alt.c-e.usa and alt.c-e.bosnia,
which our newserver here carries.
Michael Burianyk
University of Alberta
Hank Streeter
Eugene Tyurin <ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>
>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>
Because Ukraine has survived for hundreds and hundreds of years, despite
all adversity.:-)
*I'm* as sure of Ukraine being a "long-term event" as I am of Russia,
France, Germany, etc., being "long-term events." But who knows - mankind may
wipe itself off the face of the earth tomorrow.
Aside: There seem to be a small number of people around who, possibly
because they are insecure in their *own* identity, continue to hope for
the demise of the Ukrainian culture (just ain't gonna happen folks -
accept reality!) and to deny the existence of Ukraine (again - get real!!).
These are very petty, pitiful people, totally lost in their own hatred and
fear.
Those who are secure within themselves have no need to make themselves feel
worthy by trying to belittle and insult others.
Na vse dobre,
Larisa Streeter
***Opinions are mine, but are available for rental at a modest fee.***
Michael Burianyk
> Bohdan Rekshynskyj (boh...@panix.com) wrote:
>
> : Pryvit!
>
> : Welcome to the new group alt.current-events.ukraine! Let's start the
> : discussions by examining the issues such as:
>
> : *) The "nuke" treaty with Russia and the U.S.
> : *) The Crimean crisis and its relation to constitutional law.
> : *) The upcoming elections.
> : *) Any other political situation.
>
> These seem to better fit into a category that possibly could be called
> ongoing issues. Current events is a category suited to specific things
> such as natural disasters
Yeah, like alt.current-events.usa and especially alt.current-events.russia! :-),:-),:-),:-),:-),:-),
:-),:-),:-),:-),:-),:-), - ad infinitum.
I don't know - I haven't seen any charter for the alt.current-events heirarchy (nor am
I particularly interested in seeing it right now), but it seems to me that whatever the
original specifications were, they're evolving. There are plenty of 'current-events'
happening in Ukraine right now.
For instance, listening to the CBC radio news last night, I heard a report from
Crimea. The part that I most remember was a description of the bodyguards of
the leading presidential candidate. It seems that they are so big that they are
able to hide AK-47s under their coats without showing a bulge. Bodes well
for current and near future events, doesn't it?
Anthony Bugera
> Say "good night," Bohdan. This group has been rmgrouped globally by
> myself and by Ron Jarrell, and we both correctly noted that
> alt.current-events is for short-term events and groups that don't stay
> around forever. By attempting to create a substitute for
> talk.politics.ukraine, you appear not to have understood this.
>
> In any case, very, very few sites will receive this group, so you
> completely and totally wasted your time. Better you had listened to us
> in the first place and directed discussion of these events to
> soc.culture.ukrainian or talk.politics.soviet.
>
> Better luck next time.
I just went through a few of the other groups with
'alt.current-events.___' titles and I don't see a problem with
alt.current-events.ukraine. The suggested topics all seem to be
'current events' or am I missing something?
Plus, I don't mean to be rude but, who the hell are you two to rmgroup
globally? If you have some kind of authority then at least identify
yourselves properly. I want to know who to bitch to. And why suggest
these other newsgroups?
Anthony Bugera
Internet: abu...@wimsey.com Quadra.... The only way to
Compu$erve: 76470,1560 Fly!
GEnie: A.Bugera
Serdar Argic
>No offense to you Joel, but for those of us who are perhaps not totally up
>on usenet, the alt. hierarchy, etc., etc., could you please tell us who you
>and who Ron Jarrell are and what powers you have to 'rmgroup' globally
>so that "very few sites will receive this group"?
But don't forget that 'Furrian/SDPA's criminal Armenian grandparents
committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of
despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned
them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound
hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated
personal property and real estate. And today, they put Azeris in the
most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history.
Serdar Argic
'We have never denied the Armenian crime of
genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.' (Agop Zahoryan)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian)
John Stanley
Michael Burianyk <bu...@probe2.phys.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>One of the perceptions I had about usenet was that it was a democracy.
You are very much mistaken. I can't imagine what would have given you
that idea.
In any case, alt.c-e.ukraine is in altnet, so what USENET is isn't
really important.
>Also if you can 'rmgroup' alt.current-events.ukraine, please let us know who
>has the power to 'rmgroup' alt.current-events.russia, alt.c-e.usa and alt.c-e.bosnia,
>which our newserver here carries.
Anyone who can send a control message can send an rmgroup. How others
respond to that rmgroup depends on what the group you are removing is
and who you are.
Robert Talbert
My best friend is in Ukraine right now, and will be there for a year, doing
some missionary work. I was very excited at the creation of this group,
since soc.politics.ukraine or whatever it's called didn't seem quite what
I was looking for. Given that the mail delivery is so slow from the USA to
Kiev, and how US news programs and newspapers seem to think that drivel
about Tonya Harding and Lorena Bobbitt are more newsworthy than the dynamic
events in the old USSR, and given that this is my best friend we're talking
about, I thought this would be a great place for me to hear firsthand news,
inside opinions, and generally keep apprised of the situations over there.
What I found so far is, with a precious few exceptions, a bunch of pointless,
masturbating posts having extremely little to do with current events in
Ukraine. I am not a USENET insider, I do not care about alt configurations
or zoophilia newsgroups, and I certainly do not want to have my time wasted
by pointless flames against so-and-so because he did this-and-such. I am
interested in current events in Ukraine. If my .rnewsrc file is mistaken and
this is some OTHER newsgroup, as the evidence would suggest thus far, someone
please do something smart for once and tell me which newsgroup I should look
for.
Either lay off the noise and flamewars, or just delete the damned newsgroup.
Either way, I'm extremely disappointed in the behavior of the posters here and
in the content of the reading, especially since there IS so much to talk about
that is actually topical.
-- Robert
--
Robert N. Talbert | "I saw what cannot be seen
Mathematics Department | She spoke to me
Vanderbilt University | 'Take what you've learned, set it free
tal...@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu | See what you'll see.' " --- King's X
Max Pyziur
: Look,
: My best friend is in Ukraine right now, and will be there for a year, doing
: some missionary work. I was very excited at the creation of this group,
: since soc.politics.ukraine or whatever it's called didn't seem quite what
: I was looking for. Given that the mail delivery is so slow from the USA to
: Kiev, and how US news programs and newspapers seem to think that drivel
: about Tonya Harding and Lorena Bobbitt are more newsworthy than the dynamic
Wake up Bob. Cheesecake gets people to buy newspapers and turn on TVs;
sorry to break it to you.
: Either lay off the noise and flamewars, or just delete the damned newsgroup.
: Either way, I'm extremely disappointed in the behavior of the posters here and
: in the content of the reading, especially since there IS so much to talk about
: that is actually topical.
Yo Bob!
Relax; take a chill pill; loosen your tie.
...
Now even though I am one of those unspeakable people to whom you refer in
your post I am genuinely interested in knowing what your buddy is doing and
what kind of missionary work he is involved.
So, uh, Bob. Tell us.
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
I, for one, can not believe they actually agreed to give up the nukes. <or
sell them whichever way you look @ it!> Now, Ukraine is nothing more than
a 3-d world country <maybe less> and who knows, maybe they'll never have a chance
to develop. Since I live in the States now, I do like the fact that now
US could only be destroyed 13481358215381265 times in a nuclear war instead of
134813521539999 were the Ukrainians not that adventurous. They had a perfect
weapon for Universal Blackmail <TM> and they just gave it up. Good luck getting
those huge aid packages from the US and Europe.
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
Haheheh... Snappy comeback. With Russia that close it might not be that
permanent.
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
>In article <GENE.94Ja...@brook.physics.sunysb.edu>,
>Eugene Tyurin <ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>>
>
>Because Ukraine has survived for hundreds and hundreds of years, despite
>all adversity.:-)
You mean the Soviet version of Ukraine??? Noone even speaks Ukrainian in most
of the cities!!!! This is not survival, this is mutation.
>
>*I'm* as sure of Ukraine being a "long-term event" as I am of Russia,
>France, Germany, etc., being "long-term events." But who knows - mankind may
>wipe itself off the face of the earth tomorrow.
Ukraine can not be on the same chart in terms of stability as Russia. Which
in turn can not be in the same position as the European countries. As a test
of this, would you be able to say with 80% accuracy who's got the power in
Moscow?? I'd say not. Noone knows that anyway, even the ones who do have it can't
be sure. ANd Ukraine is completely dependent on Russia, even Kravchuk and his
co-parlamentaries <or co-dumaries, whichever way you want it> admit that.
>
>Aside: There seem to be a small number of people around who, possibly
>because they are insecure in their *own* identity, continue to hope for
>the demise of the Ukrainian culture (just ain't gonna happen folks -
>accept reality!) and to deny the existence of Ukraine (again - get real!!).
>These are very petty, pitiful people, totally lost in their own hatred and
>fear.
>
>Those who are secure within themselves have no need to make themselves feel
>worthy by trying to belittle and insult others.
>
>Na vse dobre,
>
Zdorovenki buli to you, too!
>Larisa Streeter
>
>***Opinions are mine, but are available for rental at a modest fee.***
This is wishful thinking or, perhaps luck of knowledge. Just what do you mean
by Ukranian culture???? Noone speaks the language, noone names their son
Dmitro or Apanas, noone dances Gopak on the street. The only "close"
comparison with the pre-soviet Ukrainian culture is that gorilka is still
mighty popular.
Gene
Myron Hlynka
Subject: Windsor newsletter part 1.
THE WINDSOR VITER
(pronounced VEE-ter; viter is the Ukrainian word for "wind")
Newsletter of the Ukrainian Canadian Business and
Professional Association of Windsor.
Volume 4, Number 1
February, 1994
Published 6 times per year.
Co-editors: Dr. Lucia Mandziuk & Dr. Myron Hlynka, 150
Kenwood St., Lasalle, ON, N9J 1R5. Ph. (519)-978-0702
President: Eva Perduk 3175 Halpin Rd.
Windsor, ON, N8R 1W1 Ph. (519)-979-3575
Association Address: U.C.B.& P. Assoc.(Windsor)
1033 Ottawa Ave. Windsor, Ontario N8X 2E3
CALENDAR OF EVENTS
Feb. 2 U.C.B.& P. Annual Meeting.
May 6 U.C.B.& P. Annual Graduation Banquet.
June 10-12 Carrousel Week 1
June 17-19 Carrousel Week 2
July 16 U.C.B.& P. Golf Tournament.
FEB. 2 ANNUAL MEETING PLEASE ATTEND!
The Ukrainian Canadian Business and Professional Association
of Windsor is holding its annual meeting on Wednesday, Feb.
2, at the Ivy Rose Restaurant, 2885 Howard Ave. Dinner is at
6:00 p.m., followed by the meeting. All members and any
other interested persons are invited. This is a good place
to present ideas for the future direction of the association
and to pay your annual dues.
PAY YOUR 1994 DUES
Dues remain at the low rate of $25 for husband and wife, and
$20 for an individual. You may pay your 1994 dues at the
annual meeting or by mail. Make checks payable to Ukr. Cdn.
B.&. P. Assoc. (Windsor).
Mail dues to membership committee member
Ted Kostyniuk
1980 Huron Church Rd.
Windsor, Ontario N9C 2L5
WINDSOR AREA NEWS
The Dec. 9 U.C.B. & P. Assoc. Christmas Party at the Top
Hat was a success. Over 50 people came for a lovely dinner
and excellent entertainment.
The Ukrainian Graduates of Detroit and Windsor held their
annual meeting on Jan. 22 at St. Clair College. Dr. Rosalie
Kapustij continues as president, doing an excellent job.
Dr. Michael Zin of the University of Windsor, gave 12
lectures on financial accounting, business organization,
and managerial accounting, in Lviw, Ukraine, during a three
week program in June, 1993. He also gave an address about
business on Radio Lviw in July.(from Newsline, University of
Windsor newsletter, Nov.29, Dec.6).
Mike Krys (Kryworuchko) has been elected President of the
Essex County Real Estate Board for 1994. Congratulations!
Fenia Buchok of Windsor celebrated her 90th birthday on Dec.
21. She was born in Zukotyn, Ukraine in 1903.
There were three Malanka (Ukrainian New Year's eve) parties
in Windsor on January 15. One was at St. Vladimir Cultural
Club. One was at the Fogolar Furlan (sponsored by the
Ukrainian School at Sts. Vladimir and Olga Church), and one
was held at Prosvita Hall. (Technically, Ukrainian New
Year's Eve falls on January 13.)
The Ukrainian National Federation held its annual Christmas
Dinner on Sunday, January 23, at the U.N.F. Hall on Ottawa
St.
Mary Staruch was the subject of an article in the Dec. 15
Windsor Star Neighborhood section. She has been active in
St. Vladimir's Ukrainian Orthodox Church/Cathedral in
Windsor since 1936. Her granddaughter, Lisa Pinsonneault,
maintains the family cultural activity by participating in
Ukrainian dance.
The Windsor Star published a Letter to the Editor by Morris
Prytulak about Ukraine's nuclear weapons on December 9,
1993.
The January 10 issue of Ukrainsky Holos published another
poem by Leamington's Peter Kuzyk. World Literature Today
(Autumn, 1993) has a review by Wolodymyr Zyla of Peter
Kuzyk's poetry book Garden of Verse.
Windsor's Ivan Jaciw has one of his better humorous art
works on the cover of the December, 1993 issue of Vsesmikh.
The cover shows a Canadian Santa Claus and a Ukrainian St.
Nicholas.
The Ukrainian Credit Unions in North America (including
Windsor) have again produced a beautiful 1994 wall calendar.
This year the art work for each month is by Detroit's late
artistic genius Edward Kozak (a.k.a. EKO).
The Dorwin Plaza Trade Center on Dougall Ave. in Windsor
recently opened its doors. The trade center has small booths
for dealers in a variety of items, from clothes to food. It
is open Friday-Sunday. Among the vendors are Halyna Fenkanyn
and Andrei Hawryshko, (DYMOK Meat Products), who sell two
types of excellent Ukrainian kobasa.
Gini Lynn Girard has already qualified for the national
championships in the triple jump. Gini Lynn is a member of
the national champion University of Windsor Track Team.
(from Newsline, January 17, 1994.)
Stephan Stebelsky returned from Yugoslavia to celebrate
Ukrainian Christmas with his family in Windsor. Stephan is
based at the Canadian Embassy in Belgrade, where his duties
include on-site reporting, providing assistance to
Canadians, selecting refugees for immigration to Canada, and
investigating war crimes. Stephan visits neighboring
Albania, Bulgaria and Macedonia as part of his duties.
Recently Stephan was in Sofia, Bulgaria, and spent a
pleasant evening dancing with the daughter of the Bulgarian
president.
The Windsor Viter received a letter from retired Windsorite
Dr. Walter Romanow. He says that he and Yvonne enjoy the
bright blue skies in Edmonton. (ed. If the Romanows wanted
brisk cold weather, they could have stayed in Windsor.)
NATIONAL
The Montreal Ukrainian Canadian Professional and Business
Association held a successful computer show on Ukrainian
topics on Dec. 4. Ukrainian language software was exhibited.
Other software of various kinds developed by Ukrainian
Canadians was demonstrated. There were discussions of
electronic mail to Ukraine and Ukrainian Canadians and
Americans across North America. One of the organizers was
Will Zuzak. (Watch for this name! Will is very active in
taking the Canadian media to task over its (lack of)
coverage of Ukrainian Canadian and Ukrainian topics.)
A Ukrainian International Summer School will offer
university courses in Ukrainian language and history at the
University of Alberta in Edmonton from July 4-August 10,
1994. Accommodation is available at St. John's Institute.
(Source: Michael Burianyk, U. of Alberta.)
The Global TV Network televised a one hour documentary about
the life of Winnipeg Ukrainian Canadian sculptor Leo Mol,
January 9, 1994.
Dr. Denis Hlynka has been appointed Acting Director of the
Centre for Ukrainian Canadian Studies at the University of
Manitoba for the 1993-94 academic year. Dr. Hlynka is a
professor of educational technology at the University of
Manitoba (and brother of Dr. Myron Hlynka).
INTERNATIONAL
The 1993 movie My Life starring Michael Keaton, has a scene
which includes a Ukrainian wedding. The movie is set in
Detroit where Bob Jones (Ivanovich) (played by Michael
Keaton) returns after many years absence. The actual wedding
scene was filmed at St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic
Cathedral in Chicago. The priest officiating the wedding was
Rev. Walter Klimczuk, according to V. Rev. Eugene Halitsky,
who phoned Rev. Klimczuk to talk about the movie.
The following item is due to Ross Chomiak on the Internet.
"Yesterday I stopped at a suburban Washington haberdashery
in Northern Virginia and saw a rack full of winter parkas
designed by New York's Bill Blass. But the label said MADE
IN UKRAINE."
World champion figure skater 16 year old Oksana Bayul of
Ukraine was defeated at a skating competition in November by
a skater from Germany. The name of the "German" girl - Tanja
Szewczenko !
Israel and Ukraine signed an agreement to promote scientific
cooperation, according to the Jerusalem Post of Dec. 6, 1993
(Source: Henry Abramson, University of Toronto).
The Windsor Viter received a letter from Ukraine written by
Jaroslav Dutkewych, who is the director of the U.S. Peace
Corps in Ukraine. The Peace Corps in Ukraine has its own
stationary. The Peace Corps has 45 Business Development
volunteers and 23 English language teachers in Ukraine.
A TRIBUTE TO CHAIKA GALLERY
On January 15, 1994, Chaika Gallery in Warren, Michigan
closed its doors. It will be missed. Chaika Gallery opened
only a few years ago. Before Chaika, the Detroit
Metropolitan area could boast the best Ukrainian art
gallery/store in North America. After Chaika arrived,
Detroit boasted the TWO best galleries. Chaika was a dream
of owner Myra Dutkewych. It had a large display area with
lots of room and a bright modern design. It held frequent
art shows featuring artists from North America and Ukraine.
Chaika reached out to the non-Ukrainian community in
advertising and publicity. Its creative shows (such as a
children's art show) made it a pleasure for customers. It is
unfortunate that the Ukrainian community in the Detroit area
is not large enough to support the high quality material
displayed. Myra is considering moving to a location which is
more visible and receives more consumer traffic. She would
carry more of an international assortment of items,
including a Ukrainian section. We wish her every success.
--
Myron Hlynka
Dept. of Math. & Stat.
University of Windsor
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
Myron Hlynka
Subject: Windsor Viter Newsletter Part 2
U.C.B.& P. ASSOCIATION
HERITAGE AWARD
Last Chance!! Deadline: Feb. 28, 1994. It's time for
university students to apply for the Ukrainian Canadian
Business and Professional Association of Windsor HERITAGE
AWARD. Applications have been left at both Ukrainian
churches in Windsor and are also available from the Awards
Office at the University of Windsor. One (or two) award(s)
of $500. will be given, at the Annual Graduation Banquet on
May 6.
REMEMBER THE JULIETTE SHOW?
Between 1954 and 1966, there was a weekly TV show on CBC
called The Juliette Show.
Juliette (Sysak) is a Ukrainian Canadian singer and
entertainer born in Winnipeg and currently living in
Vancouver. The Juliette Show followed immediately after the
televised hockey game on Saturday evenings. Since the
Saturday hockey game was the most popular program in Canada,
the Juliette Show had an ideal time slot.
Juliette was the best known Ukrainian Canadian of the 50's
and 60's, better known that politicians like Winnipeg mayor
Stephan Juba or federal cabinet minister Michael Starr,
better known than sports stars like hockey goalie Terry
Sawchuk.
Juliette had a choir and backup group of about 10 singers.
She tried to have at least one Ukrainian Canadian in the
group. Every year, for Ukrainian Christmas, Juliette or one
of her singers would sing a Ukrainian Christmas carol on the
program which would be dedicated to her parents. In 1966,
the CBC canceled her show. The CBC brass felt that the
show's success was due to the fact that it aired right after
the hockey game, and that any replacement would be equally
successful. They were wrong. Nobody remembers the show that
replaced the Juliette Show, but almost everyone born in
Canada before 1960 remembers Juliette.
CBC television showed a one hour interview of Juliette by
interviewer Brian Linehan (seen in Windsor on Dec. 20,
1993).
MEET YOUR EXECUTIVE
(We profile two more of the 1993-94 executive members of the
Windsor Ukrainian Canadian Business and Professional
Association.)
Morris Yaworsky is Chair of the Awards Committee. He was
born in Eldorena, Alberta, north east of Edmonton, He
attended high school and normal school (for teacher
training) in Edmonton and then taught in the Vegreville area
for three years. In 1941, Morris joined the RCAF and served
until 1945 when he returned to Canada. In 1945, he met and
married Nel Karlechuk in Windsor. They moved to Edmonton
where Morris attended the University of Alberta, receiving
B.Sc. and B.Ed degrees. He taught in Brooks, Alberta until
1951, when he moved to Windsor. From 1953-1985, Morris and
his brother were with Biltwell Construction, and they built
many homes in the Windsor area, including the home that
Morris currently lives in.
Morris has been involved in community work. He has been a
long time member of the Ukrainian Canadian Business and
Professional Association (and has held several executive
positions). Morris is a former president of the Ukrainian
Graduates of Detroit and Windsor. Morris has been active
with Sts. Vladimir and Olga church and served as chair of
the building committee when the rectory was built. He was
the president of a men's club at the church. Morris was a
member of the Ukrainian Studies Council when Ukrainian
language courses were introduced at the University of
Windsor. Morris is responsible for the idea of creating a
history of Ukrainian Canadians in Windsor. (ed. This project
is moving quickly to completion.)
In addition to Ukrainian community involvement, Morris
has been active in the Progressive Conservative Party. He
also worked for many years as a committee member and fund
raiser for the Cancer Society.
Leisha Nazarewich is the Public Relations Chair. She was
born in Toronto. She has a B.A. (English and History), M.A.
(English) and an L.L.B., all from the University of Windsor.
She teaches English at Riverside High School in Windsor.
This year she is on leave and working full time in the
Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation (OSSTF) office
in Windsor.
Leisha is active in the Ukrainian Canadian Business and
Professional Association of Windsor, the Ukrainian Graduates
of Detroit and Windsor, Sts. Vladimir and Olga Ukrainian
Church (Church Council), the Ukrainian Women's Organization,
and the Ukrainian Canadian Congress (vice-chair).
In addition, she is Chair of the Windsor Public Library
Board, secretary of the Women's Incentive Centre, member of
the Women's Economic Forum, and First V.P. of OSSTF
(District 1).
In her spare time, Leisha enjoys reading.
THANK YOU
Thanks to Margie and Myroslaw Prytulak for their help in
preparing and mailing this newsletter. (eds.)
KNOCK. KNOCK.
Knock. Knock.
Who's there?
Ivan.
Ivan Who?
I van to invite everyone to attend the annual meeting on
February 2.
DEADLINE FOR THE NEXT ISSUE
Any news items or announcements for the April, 1994 issue of
the Windsor Viter should be received by the editors by March
15, 1994.
HELP WANTED
Full time jobs and the care of one and a half year old twins
is taking its toll on the co-editors of The Windsor Viter.
Help is needed in putting on postage stamps and address
labels, folding newsletters, stuffing and sealing envelopes,
and adding return addresses. Approximate current circulation
is 190 newsletters. Pay is zero dollars but lots of thanks.
Approximate time required is 6 hours per issue. Please call
the editors if you are willing to help out.
WACHNA COAT OF ARMS
The Wachna family has contributed greatly to the city of
Windsor. Theodosy Wachna arrived at Ellis Island in the
U.S.A. in 1894 and moved to Manitoba in 1896. Of the 15
children of Theodosy and Anna, the following eventually made
their home in Windsor - John Wachna, Walter Wachna, Dr. Tony
Wachna, Casey Wachna, Verna Wachna Kostyniuk, Boris Wachna,
and Dr. Ted Wachna. The family has created a coat of arms
which appears below (Sorry, can't do this on e-mail.)
Wachna Drive in Windsor is named after the family. A history
of the family's early year's has been published under the
title Look Who's Coming, by Mary Paximadis, 1976.
A LONG TIME AGO ON CHRISTMAS EVE by Daria Pylypiak (Age 10)
This story is used with permission of the Windsor Star
and Daria Pylypiak. The story won first place for the age 8-
10 category in the Windsor Star Christmas Story contest.
It was published in the Windsor Star on Dec. 24, 1993.
"Dido, will you tell me a story?" John asked.
"Okay. Come here and sit on the couch with me," John's
grandfather replied in a strong Ukrainian accent.
"Are you going to read from the Batman book?" asked John.
"No, no, John," protested John's grandfather. "It is
Christmas Eve. I will tell you a Christmas story - a real one."
"Okay," sighed John. He was hoping for a good action
adventure, and was sure that this would not be one.
"This story happened to my sister, brother, and me a long
time ago on Christmas Eve in Ukraine," began John's
grandfather.
"This is going to be boring," thought John to himself.
His grandfather continued. "When I was a boy about your
age, on Christmas Eve, we would walk into the forest and
chop down our tree - not like in this country where we go to
a nursery, pick out a tree already cut down, and put in the
car to take home. We used to walk a long way - many
kilometers - searching for the right tree. We would cut it
down and carry it home - no car, no delivery - just a sled."
"How could someone walk so far for a Christmas tree?"
thought John.
"One Christmas Eve, my sister, brother, and I walked into
the woods to get a tree. My brother, Taras, was supposed to
keep my sister Maria and me safe. He was in charge of
directions. His job was to keep us from getting lost. That
day however, something happened and we got lost."
"Don't stop, Dido," said John, more excited now.
"Okay, John. Let me catch my breath," continued John's
grandfather.
"That day was very cold and snowy. Our mother warned us not
to go too far for the tree or we wouldn't be home in time
for the start of the Christmas Eve dinner. Taras insisted
that we would be fine as we started out. Maria and I were
not so sure about this as Taras, but we had to go along. He
was bigger.
"We entered the woods outside of the village searching for
a Christmas tree. A sudden gust of snow blew into our faces.
Maria fell down and began to cry. Suddenly right in front of
us stood the perfect Christmas tree. We chopped it down but
the blowing snow made Taras forget where we were and just
made Maria cry harder. We sat down on our sled and tried to
think of what to do. It just kept getting colder and darker.
I remember thinking that we needed a miracle to get us home.
Poor Taras looked so sad. He had been looking so proud
earlier that day.
"Suddenly I saw a white stag through the snowy shadows. I
had seen that stag before near our village. Somehow I knew
that we had to follow that stag so that we would be home
before the first star came out. Taras and Maria were eager
to follow him too.
"We quickly loaded the tree on the sled and started to walk
behind the stag. After a while, we saw our village. We
looked for the stag. but it was gone. We quickly ran home
and decorated our tree. Once the first evening star
appeared, we started our special Christmas Eve dinner.
Taras, Maria and I thanked God for sending that stag to help
guide us home. Our mother said that the stag was probably
our guardian angel."
"That was a great story, Dido!" exclaimed John. Never would
he have thought that his grandfather had an exciting
adventure of this kind.
Bohdan Rekshynskyj
[text abridged]
>My best friend is in Ukraine right now, and will be there for a year, doing
>some missionary work. I was very excited at the creation of this group,
>since soc.politics.ukraine or whatever it's called didn't seem quite what
>I was looking for. Given that the mail delivery is so slow from the USA to
>Kiev, and how US news programs and newspapers seem to think that drivel
>about Tonya Harding and Lorena Bobbitt are more newsworthy than the dynamic
>events in the old USSR, and given that this is my best friend we're talking
You're absolutely right. The US media is basically garbage with 10 second
sound bites.
>about, I thought this would be a great place for me to hear firsthand news,
>inside opinions, and generally keep apprised of the situations over there.
Not necessarily true. See other groups, such as soc.culture.soviet or
soc.culture.turkish.
>What I found so far is, with a precious few exceptions, a bunch of pointless,
>masturbating posts having extremely little to do with current events in
>Ukraine. I am not a USENET insider, I do not care about alt configurations
>or zoophilia newsgroups, and I certainly do not want to have my time wasted
>by pointless flames against so-and-so because he did this-and-such. I am
Then you'd better find another forum. It's going to happen here. I suggest
you buy a book about the INTERNET and get the fundamentals. Learn about
killfiles and the people who post drivel and then use them.
>interested in current events in Ukraine. If my .rnewsrc file is mistaken and
>this is some OTHER newsgroup, as the evidence would suggest thus far, someone
>please do something smart for once and tell me which newsgroup I should look
>for.
>
>Either lay off the noise and flamewars, or just delete the damned newsgroup.
Or you can just stop reading it.
>Either way, I'm extremely disappointed in the behavior of the posters here and
>in the content of the reading, especially since there IS so much to talk about
>that is actually topical.
Again, you haven't seen anything yet. The place is an anarchy with lots of
people who take no responsiblity for their posts. You need more exposure.
Regards,
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Hank Streeter
<ekho...@uceng.uc.edu> severely strained his brain cell writing:
>You mean the Soviet version of Ukraine??? Noone even speaks Ukrainian in most
>of the cities!!!! This is not survival, this is mutation.
The fact that many Ukrainians in Ukraine do not speak Ukrainian is due to
the aggressive russification process imposed on that country for the last
several decades. I notice you limit your claim to "most of the cities."
Given that a vast portion (if not a majority) of the population lives in the
country, it seems to me your argument is (intentionally) too biased to be
given any consideration whatsoever. And what is survival to you? The people
were given no choice as to the language they would speak in public, so they
adapted as best they could - some only spoke Russian, others spoke
Russian in public and Ukrainian in private. This certainly qualifies as a
survival tactic.
>Ukraine can not be on the same chart in terms of stability as Russia. Which
>in turn can not be in the same position as the European countries. As a test
>of this, would you be able to say with 80% accuracy who's got the power in
>Moscow?? I'd say not. Noone knows that anyway, even the ones who do have it
>can't be sure. ANd Ukraine is completely dependent on Russia, even
>Kravchuk and his co-parlamentaries <or co-dumaries, whichever way you
>want it admit that.
You are right when you say that neither Ukraine nor Russia can be
compared to European countries when it comes to economic stability -
there IS no stability associated with ANY of the xSU countries. And who
is in power in Moscow? Probably whoever has the money and the ammo.
However, you missed my point. I was not referring to economic stability when I
said I was certain of Ukraine's (and Russia's and France's, etc.) survival. I
was referring to the entire spectrum of attributes that define a culture:
language, history, music, customs, etc. *These* I believe will survive.
Whether Ukraine is able to maintain its independence or will once again
fall under the yoke of some other nation - that I cannot say. But either
way, whether free or under domination, Ukraine will survive through and
within the Ukrainian people. It always has.
>This is wishful thinking or, perhaps luck [sic] of knowledge. Just what do
>you mean by Ukranian culture????
And just what do you mean by asking such an insipid question? You really
need to have this defined for you?? Sheesh!
Ok. The sociological definition of culture (which is the one I'm employing
here, obviously) reads: the sum total of ways of living built up by a
group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another (Random
House Dictionary of the English Language). Like music, language, customs, etc.
In this case, I am refering to the Ukrainian language, Ukrainian music,
Ukrainian history, Ukrainian poetry, Ukrainian customs.......Get the idea? If
you need examples of the above, let me know. I can provide some excellent
reference materials for you to fill the gaps in your knowledge.
>Noone speaks the language, noone names their son Dmitro or Apanas,
You have statistical verification of these allegations?? I don't think
so. And ask all the Dmitris on this newsgroup whether or not the name
Dmitro (or Dmitri) is still in use. ;-)
>noone dances Gopak on the street.
Well, uh, gee, I don't see people dancing the flamenco through the
streets of Madrid either, but that certainly doesn't mean that the
Spanish culture is dead.
>The only "close" comparison with the pre-soviet Ukrainian culture is that
>gorilka is still mighty popular.
Bullshit.
For whatever reason, you are obviously in a state of denial over the
existence of Ukraine. Is Ukraine a threat to your identity? Do you fear
that if you acknowledge the existence of the Ukrainian culture this will
somehow compromise you in the eyes of your friends? Or that the existence
of the Ukrainian culture somehow minimizes the Russian culture? Phooey!
Russian culture is great in its own right, just as Ukrainian culture is
and French culture is, etc. *No* culture is "better" than any other -
they're merely different. And *no* culture is bettered by disparaging or
exterminating another. The diversity of cultures on this planet is
what makes living here so damn interesting and exciting. I truly pity
people like you who apparently cannot appreciate this rich multi-cultural
tapestry.
There are many subjects regarding the xSU countries that could be
extremely interesting and enlightening topics of discussion on this
forum. Wouldn't it be better if we all discussed those subjects rather
than try to deny each other's existence? What a waste of time.
Larisa Streeter
anu...@neosoft.com
*****Opinions are mine, mine, mine!!!*****
Yury M. Mukharsky
Hank Streeter <anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
<I notice you limit your claim to "most of the cities."
<Given that a vast portion (if not a majority) of the population lives in the
<country,
>And what is survival to you? The people
>were given no choice as to the language they would speak in public, so they
>*****Opinions are mine, mine, mine!!!*****
And (some of them) are wrong. Do you have facts to support opinions of
yours expressed above?
Yury
Hank Streeter
Yury M. Mukharsky <muh@physics2> wrote:
>>*****Opinions are mine, mine, mine!!!*****
>And (some of them) are wrong.
You may agree or disagree with certain opinions, but they cannot be right
or wrong because they are a person's *judgements* or *beliefs* and thus,
necessarily, right for that person. Opinions can change based on facts
presented.
Would you care to present facts relevant to the issues raised?
>Do you have facts to support opinions of yours expressed above?
Certainly. My opinions are based on facts that I know or have learned
about. What are YOUR opinions based on?
Larisa Streeter
anu...@neosoft.com
*****insert standard disclaimer here*****
Yury M. Mukharsky
Hank Streeter <anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>
>Certainly. My opinions are based on facts that I know or have learned
>about. What are YOUR opinions based on?
On facts. I do not know about yours. I know that it was _not_ in any
way dangerous or humilating to use Ukrainian on public.
I strongly suspect that urban population of Ukraine far exceeds rural population.
I would be strongly surprised if that would not be the case, since that's
true for most (if not all) developed countries, as far as I remember.
Yury
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Ah, and what do you consider wrong? What support do you have other
than the Russified circles you moved about in? I think you should
try to establish your tattered credibility (as evidenced by your
prior posts on soc.culture."soviet") before "casting your stone".
But then, Ms. Streeter is right. It is a waste of time arguing
with Russified elements of the Sovok society which have emigrated
here and have nothing worthwhile (as evidenced by all the lovely
things discussed in s.c.s and t.p.s) to discuss other than
"tampons in Moscow" or "Mr. V's sexual perversions" ad nauseam
et infinitum. Tsk, tsk.
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj, Ultor
dmitry pruss
about the post by Yury Mukharsky (who BTW knows the things Ukrainian thru
his personal experiences there) :
>
>It is a waste of time arguing
>with Russified elements of the Sovok society which have emigrated
>here and have nothing worthwhile (as evidenced by all the lovely
>things discussed in s.c.s and t.p.s) to discuss other than
>"tampons in Moscow" or "Mr. V's sexual perversions" ad nauseam
>et infinitum. Tsk, tsk.
>
So, Bohdan - what the hell are you doing here? Take a lesson from another
guy who also likes things in quotes - xpost your lengthy texts here, grep
the other's posts for a string 'Ukra' and don't argue with those whose
intellectual level is too low to argue with you (does anyone argue, for
that matter?)
You have scu of your own - enjoy it with your beloved Dragonfly and don't
bitch on us.
Followup set there.
D
Hank Streeter
<muh@physics4> wrote:
>Two statement in the article by Larissa were wrong. You may check the article
>I expleined what is wrong about them, although it's would be perfectly obvious
>for anyone who lived in Ukraine and have their eyes open. So the point in
>pointing out these mistakes was to show that either
>
>1. Larissa did not live in Ukraine or
True, I have not lived in Ukraine, but I don't have to live in a place to
gather information about it (from a variety of sources) and to thus
develop an opinion about it. And ALL sources I have heard from have
verified that to speak Ukrainian was, generally, *strongly* and
emphatically and consistently discouraged.
>2. She kept her eyes shut.
I believe it is you, Yury, who is shutting out the main emphasis of my post.
You focus on trivialities (is the urban population larger than the rural one)
and deliberately ignore the whole *point* of the post.
I was correcting the original statement that no one in Ukraine spoke
Ukrainian. This statement is *certainly* false, wouldn't you agree? I was
also correcting the initial assertion that Ukraine has no culture of its
own. Again, a *totally* false statement.
Do you disagree with my position? Then prove me wrong. Offer me evidence
that what I said in my original post is incorrect. And I don't mean like,
"The urban population comprises 51% and the rural 49% according to the
latest census figures so ha-ha you're wrong Larisa." That would only
prove that my population statistics are out of date. Address my *main*
points.
Like I said before, opinions can be changed given additional data. But
somehow, I'm not holding my breath that such evidence will be
forthcoming, in this case.
Larisa Streeter
anu...@neosoft.com
*****Opinions are still mine - especially if you disagree with them.*****
boh...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com
>In article <CKII3...@uceng.uc.edu>,
>>In article <2ic0pv$l...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (Hank Streeter) writes:
>>>In article <GENE.94Ja...@brook.physics.sunysb.edu>,
>>>Eugene Tyurin <ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Because Ukraine has survived for hundreds and hundreds of years, despite
>>>all adversity.:-)
>>
>>You mean the Soviet version of Ukraine??? Noone even speaks Ukrainian in most
>>of the cities!!!! This is not survival, this is mutation.
>AND Russian.
I was in Ukraine in 1990 -- same observation. The "more equal than equals"
spoke the language of the Russian occupation regime whereas the majority of
the rest spoke Ukrainian. Even the Ukrainian border guards in Chop spoke
Ukrainian.
>I was in L'viv in November. They ONLY spoke Ukrainian.
>
>[text extirpated]
>
>
>>
>>This is wishful thinking or, perhaps luck of knowledge. Just what do you mean
>>by Ukranian culture???? Noone speaks the language, noone names their son
>>Dmitro or Apanas, noone dances Gopak on the street. The only "close"
>>comparison with the pre-soviet Ukrainian culture is that gorilka is still
>>mighty popular.
>>Gene
>>
>Oh great, another graduate-wannabe virus on the net. Finish your degree, get
>an education, and try reading the entry about Ukrainian culture in
>the Encyclopedia Britannica, for starters. When you're educated and
>have respect and tolerance for others, maybe you'll even post something
>remotely intelligent.
Kholodenko
>
>
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj, Ultor
>
>
>Further inane posts by you shall be discarded. You're in my killfile.
>
Same here -- into the killfile goes another russophilic chauvinist.
boh...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com
>In article <2imqea$k...@sugar.neosoft.com>,
>Hank Streeter <anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>>
>>Certainly. My opinions are based on facts that I know or have learned
>>about. What are YOUR opinions based on?
>
>On facts. I do not know about yours. I know that it was _not_ in any
>way dangerous or humilating to use Ukrainian on public.
Oh, REALLY? So what was the reason Ivasiuk was tortured to death by the KGB in
1979? The state harassment of this popular Ukrainian composer started only
when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*.
And the official party line was that he killed himself by breaking his ribs,
gouging his eyes out, and then hanging himself.
That's one "datapoint." How many thousands of others do you need? The
suppression of the Ukrainian language by Russians is very well known.
>
>I strongly suspect that urban population of Ukraine far exceeds rural population.
>I would be strongly surprised if that would not be the case, since that's
>true for most (if not all) developed countries, as far as I remember.
>
>Yury
Bohdan Bodnar
Eduard Ponarin
>Given that a vast portion (if not a majority) of the population lives in the
>country, it seems to me your argument is (intentionally) too biased to be
>given any consideration whatsoever.
Shame on you! You don't know even the basic facts about your
country. Ukraine was one of the most urbanized republics in the
former Soviet Union. In 1979, the percentage of urban population
was 82.4 in Ukraine. The process of urbanization continued through
the 1980s, and probably the current figure is a little higher. (I
simply don't want to go and look it up in newer books, but you are
welcome to if you don't believe me.)
Regarding language usage, Russian in its southern variety was the
language of the cities except for Western Ukraine which is
practically the only place where Russian is not used very much in
everyday life.
Ed Ponarin,
e...@umich.edu
THESE OPINIONS MAY NOT COINCIDE WITH THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
>>In article <GENE.94Ja...@brook.physics.sunysb.edu>,
>>Eugene Tyurin <ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>>>
>>
>>Because Ukraine has survived for hundreds and hundreds of years, despite
>>all adversity.:-)
>
>You mean the Soviet version of Ukraine??? Noone even speaks Ukrainian in most
>of the cities!!!! This is not survival, this is mutation.
AND Russian.
[text extirpated]
>
>This is wishful thinking or, perhaps luck of knowledge. Just what do you mean
>by Ukranian culture???? Noone speaks the language, noone names their son
>Dmitro or Apanas, noone dances Gopak on the street. The only "close"
>comparison with the pre-soviet Ukrainian culture is that gorilka is still
>mighty popular.
>Gene
>
Oh great, another graduate-wannabe virus on the net. Finish your degree, get
an education, and try reading the entry about Ukrainian culture in
the Encyclopedia Britannica, for starters. When you're educated and
have respect and tolerance for others, maybe you'll even post something
remotely intelligent.
Lydia Kulbida
>
This is my first posting to this group, although I have been reading for a
while. I couldn't let this last comment pass by without rebuttal. I
traveled through Ukraina in the summer of '92 with my New York based dance
group. We performed in Lviv, Kiev, Kharkiv, Ivano-Frankivske and Kalush.
Except for a few people in Kharkiv, everyone we met spoke Ukrainian. Our
program consisted of traditional folk dances, a stylized piece
commemorating the millenium of Christianity, a ballet called "Fight For
Freedom" and a suite of Ivasiuk numbers done in various styles (modern,
jazz, ballroom and ballet). At every performance we were given numerous
standing ovations. Many people in the audiences cried during scenes of
oppression in "Fight For Freedom." Ukrainian choreographers congratulated
our director for taking Ukrainian dance to another level, something they
were unable to do under a communist regime. We were invited to see other
groups perform and rehearse and saw arts and culture flourishing. No our
trip was not perfect, we had problems dealing with people who had a
bureaucratic mentality, but on the whole I was very pleased. I left the
country feeling closer to my relatives, having made new friends (including
one named Dmytro!) and I gained a deep appreciation for the beauty of the
land and the dreams of the people.
On to a totally different subject - this group. Maybe since I'm new to the
Internet I'm being naive, but I expected totally different types of discussion.
I can't believe the whole discussion on whether ukraine should or shouldn't
be an alt.current-events group. I just looked at the alt.current-events.russia
group to see why they rate their own group and found most of the recent
postings have to do with having sex with a menstruating woman. What does that
have to do with the price of a ruble in Moscow? How is that a current event?
And why do so many postings have such mean-spirited digs?
I'll stop now and put on a flame proof suit as I await replies.
Lida
Zak May
>YM> I know that it was _not_ in any way dangerous or humilating
>YM> to use Ukrainian on public.
I don't understand what the argument is about - we never differentiated
between the two languages, at least not in the East. Ukrainians (esp.
those from the rural areas) spoke Ukrainian, Russians and Jews spoke
Russian, and nobody had any trouble understanding each other. Now it
*was* a little embarassing to use *Russian* in Ukrainian vilaages (they
didn't like that), but we spoke Ukrainian and had no problems either.
The first I heard of language troubles was when nationalist gangs started
roaming Har'kov streets, questioning everybody's knowledge of Ukrainian
and beating the shit out of people if they didn't know the word "stelia"
or something stupid like that. Never heard of anybody having any trouble
because they didn't speak Russian, on the other hand.
> So what was the reason Ivasiuk was tortured to death by the KGB in 1979?
Politics, maybe? Who's Ivasiuk?
> The state harassment of this popular Ukrainian composer started only
> when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*
This is outward stupid - are you sure it's not the Pablo Neruda story?
How popular was the guy, that I don't know his name? And what were the
songs about? Elaborate please.
> The suppression of the Ukrainian language by Russians is very well known.
Oh yeah? Why was the study of it mandatory in high schools then?
___
Zak.
Rear-Admiral P.Pidorenko
>
> In article <2ims28$p...@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics2 (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>>
>>On facts. I do not know about yours. I know that it was _not_ in any
>>way dangerous or humilating to use Ukrainian on public.
>
> Oh, REALLY? So what was the reason Ivasiuk was tortured to death by the KGB in
> 1979? The state harassment of this popular Ukrainian composer started only
> when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*.
> And the official party line was that he killed himself by breaking his ribs,
> gouging his eyes out, and then hanging himself.
Yeah, we tortured the bastard to death. Me personally gouged his dicky eyes
out with my prick.
[ Okrainian pigs should eat shit and die. Crimea would become
Russian once again. All Turko-Okrainians should go where they
rightfully belong - Turkey and North Korea. ]
(Chapter II, paragraph 3, Program of LDPR)
> That's one "datapoint." How many thousands of others do you need? The
> suppression of the Ukrainian language by Russians is very well known.
Ukrainian "language" ?! Huh-huh-huh-huh-huh !! Who speaks that
"language" besides mentally deficient pig farmers and their North-american
counterparts ?
> Bohdan Bodnar
BohdAnus, get a life insurance. KGB is after your arse.
>>> Petro Pidorenko, Rear-Admiral <<<
KGB Information Agency, HQ
Shabolovka 37,
Moscow
Yury M. Mukharsky
Hank Streeter <anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> wrote:
>True, I have not lived in Ukraine, but I don't have to live in a place to
>gather information about it (from a variety of sources) and to thus
>develop an opinion about it. And ALL sources I have heard from have
>verified that to speak Ukrainian was, generally, *strongly* and
>emphatically and consistently discouraged.
Am I source enough?
>
>I believe it is you, Yury, who is shutting out the main emphasis of my post.
>You focus on trivialities (is the urban population larger than the rural one)
>and deliberately ignore the whole *point* of the post.
Larissa, I am correcting outrageously stupid mistakes you made, if don't
wnat these correction, you are welcome to put me into your kill file.
When somebody saying somebody reasonable one is tends to listen to that. Until
speaker says somethis outrageously wrong. At this point listener understands
that speaker nows nothing about the subject. That is he maybe heard something,
but he has no basic knowledge or brains or both to tell the truth from
hearsay or outright lies. The statement "Speaking Ukrainian in public was supressed"
undoubtfully belongs to this category. It's like hear your biology teacher
mentioning australian elephants. No those elephants are not the topic of the
today's class, but after this casual remark you somehow becomes not very
interested in the rest of his teaching. Unless you are literature major and
plan to right prose of absurd of course.
Yury
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
[text extirpated]
>Regarding language usage, Russian in its southern variety was the
>language of the cities except for Western Ukraine which is
>practically the only place where Russian is not used very much in
>everyday life.
Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
occupation forces are no longer there.
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj, Ultor
>
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Yury M. Mukharsky <muh@physics4> wrote:
>>In article <2ims28$p...@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics2 (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Certainly. My opinions are based on facts that I know or have learned
>>>>about. What are YOUR opinions based on?
>>>
>>>On facts. I do not know about yours. I know that it was _not_ in any
>>>way dangerous or humilating to use Ukrainian on public.
>>
>>Oh, REALLY? So what was the reason Ivasiuk was tortured to death by the KGB in
>>1979? The state harassment of this popular Ukrainian composer started only
>>when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*.
>>And the official party line was that he killed himself by breaking his ribs,
>>gouging his eyes out, and then hanging himself.
>>
>>That's one "datapoint." How many thousands of others do you need? The
>>suppression of the Ukrainian language by Russians is very well known.
>
>unkrainian who grew up in Ukraine, do you?
^^^^^^^^^^
Interesting neologism. Why don't you just say you're not Ukrainian
instead of "Un"Ukrainian?
Your contribution would be welcomed if it weren't tainted by previous
Russian chauvanism. There is no need for Russian and Ukrainian
emigrants and descendents thereof to continue these diatribes, BUT
it's interesting to see how the provocateurs are (till now) always
Ukrainophobic (Viznyuk, Steshenko, Pidorenko, et alii). I have been on
the net for a while and have seen not one post in such a vein as
Russophobic (although I expect to see one anyday now - no doubt it
will be a Ukrainophobe seeking to cause or propogate more ill-will
and stifle meaningful discussion.)
>Do it now, before I supplied data points against your beliefe, they are fragile
>so nurture them, protect them.
>
>Data point one: Songs in Ukrainian: Does "Chervona Ruta" qualify? Do you want
>more?
>
>Data point two: is public school public enough place for you? What about
>Ukrainian class there.
>
>If you are still reading, tell me if you need more. And don't support _ridiculous_
>statements, if you want people to listen to _reasonable_ ones which you may
>do in the future.
Somehow, I can't see how input from people who endlessly discuss
genitals, female hygiene, and various sexual perversions as
being competent or even mature (the vast majority of the
individuals posting are from universities. It's quite
apparent that they have not progressed beyond adolescence.)
enough to discuss *any* topic. (This last is not directed at
you, Mr. Mukharsky)
>
>Yury
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Eduard Ponarin
>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>occupation forces are no longer there.
Chy ty skazyvsja, choloviche? The "Russian occupation forces" are
still there. The only difference is that they are considered
"Ukrainian national forces" now.
dmitry pruss
>way dangerous or humilating to use Ukrainian on public.
Not in Ukraine or surrounding oblast's of Russia, at least. The only
anti-Ukrainian discrimination which comes in mind is that they couldn't
enter MSU and other Russian universities without righting an essay in good
Russian (while Middle-Asians could earn bonus marks on that)
>I strongly suspect that urban population of Ukraine far exceeds rural population.
>I would be strongly surprised if that would not be the case, since that's
>true for most (if not all) developed countries, as far as I remember.
>
From my hi-school course of geography: UkrSSR - 55% urbane; RSFSR - 60%. Must
have grown since then.
Nevertheless, Yury, I have to admit that these factual mistakes didn't
change any major conclusion of the article you criticized.
D
Hank Streeter
Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>Shame on you! You don't know even the basic facts about your
>country. Ukraine was one of the most urbanized republics in the
>former Soviet Union. In 1979, the percentage of urban population
>was 82.4 in Ukraine. The process of urbanization continued through
>the 1980s, and probably the current figure is a little higher. (I
>simply don't want to go and look it up in newer books, but you are
>welcome to if you don't believe me.)
My deepest apologies for not having *THE* most current population
statistics at my fingertips.......;-D
No, I *don't* know the percent urbanized vs rural figures, for Ukraine OR
for the United States OR for anywhere else NOR do I believe that that
matters very much to the POINT OF THE POST. To wit: Ukrainian IS spoken
in Ukraine.
For some reason, several of you are attempting to focus attention to
the minutiae of my post and to create an issue where there really isn't one
rather than address the gist of what I was saying. It's very easy to nit
pick the parts (oh, that word is wrong, that sentence is too long, that
adjective is misplaced) but a rather more difficult matter to refute the
meaning of the whole. [I gather this is a popular technique in the
"successful avoidance of discussing issues I don't wanna talk about"
category.]
>Regarding language usage, Russian in its southern variety was the
Ed, I *certainly* hope you don't mean to imply that Ukrainian is a
"southern variety of Russian," do you?? Please tell me there are no
dragon flies buzzing around your head. ;-)
Larisa
anu...@neosoft.com
*****Opinions guarded by watchdog day and night.*****
Lydia Kulbida
>
Ivasiuk composed many popular songs, most notably "Chervona Ruta." Others
include "Malvy," "Zaprosy Mene U Sny Svoyi" and too more to mention. Singer
Sophia Rotaru is well-known for her interpretations of his songs. Many of
his compositions were about love - love lost, love that would never be.
I don't think I've been to a single zabava or wedding where the band did not
play any Ivasiuk songs. When I visited his gravesite in Lviv it was covered
with flowers, and my family tells me it is never bare. I guess you could
say the gentleman is still very popular and his music will not be forgotten.
Lida
Martin Lee Group
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj <boh...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <2iol4i$i...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
>Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>[text extirpated]
>
>>practically the only place where Russian is not used very much in
>>everyday life.
>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>occupation forces are no longer there.
>
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj, Ultor
>>
Mr. Wise Guy
Second, your Russian occupation forces=Ukrainian national army today
---
Valeri Smelyansky
Department of Physics le...@helios.physics.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto
Toronto, Ontario (416) 978 5848 FAX
CANADA M5S 1A7 (416) 978 2943 VOICE
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Martin Lee Group <le...@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>In article <2iosve$i...@panix.com>,
>Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj <boh...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <2iol4i$i...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
>>Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>>[text extirpated]
>>
>>>language of the cities except for Western Ukraine which is
>>>practically the only place where Russian is not used very much in
>>>everyday life.
>>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>>occupation forces are no longer there.
>>
>>>
>Mr. Wise Guy
*implicitly* in languages, Mr. Smelyansky
>Second, your Russian occupation forces=Ukrainian national army today
They will include those Russians who did not want to go back to Russia,
yes. However the most notable Russian occupation force is in Krym
today. That is what I had more in mind.
As an additional statement - it will not profit anyone to see
strife amongst Ukraine and Russia. Remember that.
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Yury M. Mukharsky
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj <boh...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>>>occupation forces are no longer there.
Regarding all this discussion on using Ukrainian in public, I would like
to hear from Knowledgeble Ones if it's common in human history for children
of officers of occupational army to be forced to learn local language.
Yury
Zak May
> to hear from Knowledgeble Ones if it's common in human history for children
> of officers of occupational army to be forced to learn local language.
Actually, the officers' children were the only ones who were *not* forced
to learn the language, so - you lose that one ;-) Unless you have different
info.
___
Zak.
Russ Mestechkin/303875/burlingt/B00003d
|> In article <2iol4i$i...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
|> Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
|>
|> matters very much to the POINT OF THE POST. To wit: Ukrainian IS spoken
|> in Ukraine.
^^^^^^^^
Is this what all this argument all about? G-d, total degradation....
Let's now argue wether Russian is spoken in Russia!
BTW, does anyone has tapes of "Voply Vidopliasova" and "Bratov Gadukinyx"?
--
RM mest...@vnet.ibm.com
________________________________________
...if all you told was turned to gold,
if all you dreamed were new,
imagine sky high above
in Caribbean blue
...Earus... Afer Ventus...
dmitry pruss
>Bohdan <boh...@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> wrote:
>>YM> I know that it was _not_ in any way dangerous or humilating
>>YM> to use Ukrainian on public.
>
>I don't understand what the argument is about - we never differentiated
>between the two languages, at least not in the East. Ukrainians (esp.
>those from the rural areas) spoke Ukrainian, Russians and Jews spoke
>Russian, and nobody had any trouble understanding each other. Now it
>*was* a little embarassing to use *Russian* in Ukrainian vilaages (they
>didn't like that), but we spoke Ukrainian and had no problems either.
When I was a kid on a vacation, I didn't - and surely heard 'kacap, kacap,
za popku cap'.
Not that I mind it too much :) :) :) :-) but I tried to recall a
symmetric saying in Russian (which would discourage Ukrainian kids to speak
their tongue) - and couldn't remember any...
D
Yury M. Mukharsky
Two statement in the article by Larissa were wrong. You may check the article
I expleined what is wrong about them, although it's would be perfectly obvious
for anyone who lived in Ukraine and have their eyes open. So the point in
pointing out these mistakes was to show that either
1. Larissa did not live in Ukraine or
2. She kept her eyes shut.
Yury
Hank Streeter
<bfol...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Ivasiuk composed many popular songs, most notably "Chervona Ruta." Others
>include "Malvy," "Zaprosy Mene U Sny Svoyi" and too more to mention. Singer
>Sophia Rotaru is well-known for her interpretations of his songs. Many of
Yeah!! Whatever happened to Sophia Rotaru?? What a great voice that lady
has!! Has she released any new albums lately??
Larisa
anu...@neosoft.com
*****Tone-deaf.*****
Hank Streeter
>(Zak's wailing away: "...bo tvoja vroooooda, to je chistaja voooda...")
>;-)
"Wailing"??? Oh, lordy.....And I thought you had the reputation of being
*the* music man 'round these parts!!?! ;-)
>So what's this with him not being able to write songs in Ukrainian?
>I didn't know his *name*. What's the whole story, anyway?
Second that. I'd very much like to hear this, also.
Larisa
anu...@neosoft.com
*****....to ye bystraya voda synikh hir....*****
Dima Volodin
: They will include those Russians who did not want to go back to Russia,
: yes. However the most notable Russian occupation force is in Krym
: today. That is what I had more in mind.
Ya, konechno, ponimayu, chto Bohdanu Peteru nasrat' na takie
melochi, no vsio-taki interesno - naverniaka ved' znaet
itogi poslednih vyborov v Krymu.
: Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Dima
dmitry pruss
>Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>
>No, I *don't* know the percent urbanized vs rural figures, for Ukraine OR
>for the United States OR for anywhere else NOR do I believe that that
>matters very much to the POINT OF THE POST. To wit: Ukrainian IS spoken
>in Ukraine.
>
>For some reason, several of you are attempting to focus attention to
>the minutiae of my post and to create an issue where there really isn't one
>rather than address the gist of what I was saying.
Well, after listening to Yuri's anxiety and Bohdan's bitching it came to me
that one thing of what you were saying wasn't so minute.
It's about the population being brutally forced to speak Russian.
While Russification was indeed on agenda of the CPSU, it seldom went as far
as to discourage people to speak a particular tongue. I know only of two
examples - Crimean Tatar and Hebrew. That could have been a few more,
anyway these are isolated cases.
The trend they encouraged was , instead, towards bilingualism.
Now, in a few cases it brought indeed a devastating effect to some of the
languages, resulting in a massive language loss among the Karelians, the
Tatars, the Byelorussians and of course the Jews. In other cases, no *home*
fluency loss ever occured (like in Georgia or Estonia).
A few factors correlated with the ease of the loss - being a largely urbane
or disperced minority , or sharing a wide layer of culture and language
with Russian.
These sorts of factors affect the assimilation tendencies similarly
throughout the world, and one shouldn't invoke a notion of "Bolshevik
cowardness" to understand why these factors worked in such a transnational
empire as the USSR.
Being related to Russia, and having large proportion of educated, urbane,
or intersperced population, the Ukrainians were naturally not exempt of
such evolution.
And nevertheless, Ukrainian is not going to die. So - what's all the
excitement about?
>>Regarding language usage, Russian in its southern variety was the
>
>Ed, I *certainly* hope you don't mean to imply that Ukrainian is a
>"southern variety of Russian," do you?? Please tell me there are no
>dragon flies buzzing around your head. ;-)
Let me substitute for him - vzzzz ;-)
So: generally speaking, there're two groups of Russian dialects, Northern
and Southern (though oversimplified a concept, it's exact enough for such a
discussion). They differ both in vocabulary and pronounciation, the
Muscovite talk being largely nothern by the word usage, and roughly
intermediate by the sound usage.
Voronezh, Don and N Caucasus dialects sound particularly similarly to the
Ukrainian and share a considerably larger part of vocabulary with it when
does the Muscovite talk. In fact I met people from Stawropol who consider
themselves "just hohly", but not Ukrainians...
(Yes I know that they may descend from the sich')
The point is, the local dialects have a great tendency to mix if the
original languages are closely enough related. This, unfortunately,
happened with Belorussian , which is largely substituted by *pomak* (mixed
quazi-Russian dialect) even in the countryside.
And yes, to me, a Muscovite, the southern manner of speaking Russian seems
distinctly outlandish.
Regards,
D
Zak May
> Yeah!! Whatever happened to Sophia Rotaru??
Who cares?
> What a great voice that lady has!!
You're out of your mind, seriously.
> Has she released any new albums lately??
What's lately for you? After the Matetsky thing (songs from which you can hear
all over the "Malen'kaja Vera" soundtrack) she had a couple of minor hits, very
upbeat and stupid. Nothing resembling the grace of her original material. The
bad thing about Pugatchova in Russian/Soviet pop music is that now every middle
aged female singer thinks she can sing heavy Eurodisco. They can't. It's sad.
___
Zak.
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
>include "Malvy," "Zaprosy Mene U Sny Svoyi" and too more to mention. Singer
>Sophia Rotaru is well-known for her interpretations of his songs. Many of
>his compositions were about love - love lost, love that would never be.
>I don't think I've been to a single zabava or wedding where the band did not
>play any Ivasiuk songs. When I visited his gravesite in Lviv it was covered
>with flowers, and my family tells me it is never bare. I guess you could
>say the gentleman is still very popular and his music will not be forgotten.
>Lida
Ah, Lida, Mal'vy!
Zasnuly mal'vy kolo khaty...
The singer OLYA renders this beautifully (I am listening to her even
now on CD)! You can get it from Yevshan. Their 800 number escapes
me - drop me email or ask information at 800-555-1212 for Yevshan's
number.
Please tell us more about your trip to his gravesite! Which cemetery
in L'viv? Yanivs'kyj? Lychakivs'kyj?
Where was it? I will be there either in March or June...
From the 2nd volume of Encyclopedia of UKRAINE:
Ivasiuk, Volodymyr, b. 4 April 1949 in Kitsman, Chernivtsi oblast,
d 1st May 1979 near L'viv. Composer.
From 1972 he studied music under A. Kos-Anatolsky at the L'viv
Conservatory. Although he composed piano an cello pieces, Ivasiuk
is best known for his songs, which number about 50. His first
song, 'Vidlitaly zhuravli' (The Cranes Were Leaving) was released
in 1965, In some cases - eg, in 'Lysh raz tsvite liubov' (Love
blooms but Once), 'Balada pro mal'vy' (Ballad about Hollyhocks),
and 'Ia - tvoie krylo' (I am Your Wing) - he composed the melody only;
in others - eg, in 'Dva persteni' (Twp Rings), 'Vodohrai' (Water
Fountain), 'Pisnia bude pomizh nas' (A Song Will Be among Us), and
'Chervona ruta' (Red Rue) - both the melody and lyrics. Ivasiuk's
tunes are a blend of Ukrainian folk and contemporary popular music.
He was one of the most popular songwriters in Ukraine. His
mutilated body was discovered in a woods outside L'viv about three
weeks after he had been murdered. The circumstantial evidence
points to the KGB as the perpetrator of the slaying. Ivasiuk's
funeral was attended by over 10,000 people.
Requiescas in Pace....
z povahoyu,
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Yury M. Mukharsky
I do. First year they were required to attend classes but had no exams. Second
year they should pass exams together with other pupils. At least children
of permanently stationed officers.
Yury
Hank Streeter
<pr...@helix.nih.gov> wrote:
>It's about the population being brutally forced to speak Russian.
I suppose this depends on your definition of brutally.
>While Russification was indeed on agenda of the CPSU, it seldom went as far
>as to discourage people to speak a particular tongue. I know only of two
>examples - Crimean Tatar and Hebrew. That could have been a few more,
>anyway these are isolated cases.
>
>The trend they encouraged was , instead, towards bilingualism.
While I am all for bilingualism (and tri- and quatri- and as many as you
can!), I don't believe it is something that should be imposed on a native
population in their own country. It would be like the Spaniards going
into Portugal and insisting all the Portuguese speak Spanish as a second
language. But the *Spaniards* don't need to speak Portuguese. Perhaps the
"bilingual encouragement" would be more palatable to me if it were mutual
in Ukraine AND in Russia, like "encouraging" Ukrainian-Russian bilingualism
in Russia.
The trend starts small - gee, wouldn't it be a good idea to speak another
language. Then, when a significant part of the populace is bilingual,
phasing out of the "other" language is slowly instilled. Does this have
to be by brute force? Not at all [tho I'm NOT saying there were no
violent coersions, either]. It can be done subtly or overtly, by
bribes or by threats. And it's a funny thing that this bilingualism was
not encouraged in Russia but was in the other republics.
Say I am a Ukrainian-only speaker and I wish to get a job. I probably
cannot get a decent job if I cannot speak Russian, correct? Ergo, I
*must* learn Russian if I am to get a decent job to survive. Did anyone
hold a gun to my head and tell me to do it? Didn't have to. The economic
reality, coupled with pressure to conform, would be enough to "convince" me.
The same principle is at work in China. There, couples are "encouraged"
to have only one child, if any. No one holds a gun to their head.
Instead, they are offered "incentives": medical care and educational
provisions only for 1 child, peer pressure to have only 1, pressure from
the local citizenry to have only 1. And it works because people see the
reality of not complying.
>And nevertheless, Ukrainian is not going to die. So - what's all the
>excitement about?
Naturally it's not going to die. I'm just tired of bullshit like
Kholodenko's passing unchallenged. Well, that's what it started as but it
soon grew into whether or not the Ukrainian/Russian bilingualism was
indeed imposed by Russia and how many people actually spoke Ukrainian.
>>dragon flies buzzing around your head. ;-)
>
>Let me substitute for him - vzzzz ;-)
Quick! Someone grab the RAID!! ;-)
>So: generally speaking, there're two groups of Russian dialects, Northern
>and Southern (though oversimplified a concept, it's exact enough for such a
>discussion). They differ both in vocabulary and pronounciation, the
>Muscovite talk being largely nothern by the word usage, and roughly
>intermediate by the sound usage.
And thanks for the explanation of Russian dialects.
Regards,
Larisa
anu...@neosoft.com
*****Opinions can be bilingual also.*****
Yury M. Mukharsky
<>
<>Politics, maybe? Who's Ivasiuk?
<>
<>> The state harassment of this popular Ukrainian composer started only
<>> when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*
<
<include "Malvy," "Zaprosy Mene U Sny Svoyi" and too more to mention. Singer
OK, now I finally know who Ivasjuk is. I guess Zak does, too. Just FYI
Larisa: Ivasjuk wrote _a lot of Ukrainian songs_. As a matter of fact I don't
know about any of his _Russian_ songs. Maybe there are some details which
I am not aware of, but on the surface: wrong shot again.
Yury
Dima Volodin
: While Russification was indeed on agenda of the CPSU, it seldom went as far
: as to discourage people to speak a particular tongue. I know only of two
: examples - Crimean Tatar and Hebrew. That could have been a few more,
: anyway these are isolated cases.
Hebrew was banned as a part of almost "sektantskoy"
religion. But who cares anyway.
: So: generally speaking, there're two groups of Russian dialects, Northern
: and Southern (though oversimplified a concept, it's exact enough for such a
: discussion). They differ both in vocabulary and pronounciation, the
: Muscovite talk being largely nothern by the word usage, and roughly
: intermediate by the sound usage.
Nnnnno. "Moskovskii govor" (and to a lesser extent StPete's) is very
distinctive in it's sound usage. As of the word usage it's somewhere in
the middle between the Nothern and the _Middle_ (Ryazan', Kaluga etc.)
Russian. StPete is closer to what is considered the pure literary
Russian. (I am not a linguist - it's juts how it feels to me)
: D
Dima
Boris A. Veytsman
says:
I may add that these rules were about all children, whose
parents moved to Ukraine from other places (well, officers
were always on the move). The rules Yuri quotes were for
elementary school children; if a high school kid moved to Ukraine,
he/she may be completely excused from the Ukrainian language
course; whoever it was not the automatic excuse - it ought to
be endorsed (don't remember, were it school pedagogues or
district school dept that made a decision in each case). I
remember in my school they granted the excuse rather reluctantly.
And nobody was excused from the Ukrainian Literature course;
the 'migrated' kids may write their essays in Russian, however and
even use Russian translations of the studied literature
Good luck
-Boris
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Yury M. Mukharsky <muh@physics4> wrote:
This is the few times that you "got it"! Yes, you are shooting blanks
again! Ivasiuk refused to write any of his songs in Russian!
Get this one?
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Yury M. Mukharsky
>><>> when he refused to write his songs in *Russian* and wrote them in *Ukrainian*
>
>again! Ivasiuk refused to write any of his songs in Russian!
>Get this one?
Bohdan, I am little confused, who of us two has an English as first language
and who as third? If harassment started *only* when he refuse/wrote then
what did he do before it started? Wrote them in Russian?
OK, I stop it. Put me into you kill file, I told you.
Yury
223...@msu.edu
e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
>In article <2iosve$i...@panix.com> boh...@panix.com (Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj) writes:
>>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>>occupation forces are no longer there.
>
>Chy ty skazyvsja, choloviche? The "Russian occupation forces" are
>still there. The only difference is that they are considered
withdrawn soon.
>"Ukrainian national forces" now.
Ukrainian Military Forces
That is why Moscow is afraid Ukraine.
By the way, about 80% of servicemen of the Black Sea Fleet are citizens of
Ukraine.Basil
Eduard Ponarin
Rekshynskyj) writes:
> >Second, your Russian occupation forces=Ukrainian national army today
> They will include those Russians who did not want to go back to Russia,
> yes. However the most notable Russian occupation force is in Krym
> today. That is what I had more in mind.
I can't see what you mean. You said "Praise the Lord that Russian
occupational forces have left Ukraine". Now you are saying that what
you really meant by your statement (or what you had in mind when you
wrote it) is that Russian occupation force is still in Crimea. So,
what do you really-really mean?
> As an additional statement - it will not profit anyone to see
> strife amongst Ukraine and Russia. Remember that.
Did someone advocate a war between Ukraine and Russia here? I think
it's hardly possible. I mean what kind of Russian would want to go
across the border with Ukraine to Kharkov (Kharkiv), Chernigov
(Chernihiv), Kiev (Kyyiv), etc. and do the things they usually do in
a war? As I read in a UPI story, Moscow police does not even have the
guts to apply the mayor's decree against profiteers to the Ukrainians
and Belorussians trading on Moscow markets. (Whereas they apparently
enjoy applying it to the others.) Get real: it's not those rotten
and crumbling Ukrainian nukes or "Ukrainian national forces" that
protect Ukraine from Russia. It's the fact that you guys are
perceived in Russia as sort of Russians, be it offensive to you or
not.
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
>Look,
>
>My best friend is in Ukraine right now, and will be there for a year, doing
>some missionary work. I was very excited at the creation of this group,
>since soc.politics.ukraine or whatever it's called didn't seem quite what
>I was looking for. Given that the mail delivery is so slow from the USA to
>Kiev, and how US news programs and newspapers seem to think that drivel
>about Tonya Harding and Lorena Bobbitt are more newsworthy than the dynamic
>events in the old USSR, and given that this is my best friend we're talking
>about, I thought this would be a great place for me to hear firsthand news,
>inside opinions, and generally keep apprised of the situations over there.
>
>What I found so far is, with a precious few exceptions, a bunch of pointless,
>masturbating posts having extremely little to do with current events in
>Ukraine. I am not a USENET insider, I do not care about alt configurations
>or zoophilia newsgroups, and I certainly do not want to have my time wasted
>by pointless flames against so-and-so because he did this-and-such. I am
>interested in current events in Ukraine. If my .rnewsrc file is mistaken and
>this is some OTHER newsgroup, as the evidence would suggest thus far, someone
>please do something smart for once and tell me which newsgroup I should look
>for.
>
>Either lay off the noise and flamewars, or just delete the damned newsgroup.
>Either way, I'm extremely disappointed in the behavior of the posters here and
>in the content of the reading, especially since there IS so much to talk about
>that is actually topical.
>
>-- Robert
>
>--
>Robert N. Talbert | "I saw what cannot be seen
>Mathematics Department | She spoke to me
>Vanderbilt University | 'Take what you've learned, set it free
>tal...@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu | See what you'll see.' " --- King's X
Dang. I've been trying to convey this point to some groups for about a year or
so. This is futile <as I have discovered>... Your choices are to put up with
the garbage in order to get what you want or to unsubscribe. That simple.
BTW, has anyone heard anything about an armed man supposedly taking 2 hostages
in some Ukrainian kindergarden today <Feb 3-d>.. I just got that from one of my
friends who was listening to the radio. Any details would be appreciated.
Gene
Eduard Ponarin
Mukharsky) writes:
> Regarding all this discussion on using Ukrainian in public, I would like
> to hear from Knowledgeble Ones if it's common in human history for children
> of officers of occupational army to be forced to learn local language.
I think something like that has already happenned in Ukraine in 1917.
Do you remember the episode from Bulgakov's piece when Skoropadskii
urges his adjutant to speak Ukrainian and 10 seconds later says: "OK,
OK, go back to Russian".
Eduard Ponarin
> to hear from Knowledgeble Ones if it's common in human history for children
> of officers of occupational army to be forced to learn local language.
Actually, there have been historic precedents of the sort. When Manchus
in the 17th century toppled the Ming dynasty in China and established
their own dynasty which lasted through 1911, they very soon lost their
language. (Possibly, in only one or two generations.) Today's Manchu
minority in China has Mandarine Chinese as its native tongue.
mark
>In article <CKII3...@uceng.uc.edu>, ekho...@uceng.uc.edu (Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko) writes...
>>In article <2ic0pv$l...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> anu...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (Hank Streeter) writes:
>>>In article <GENE.94Ja...@brook.physics.sunysb.edu>,
>>>Eugene Tyurin <ge...@insti.physics.sunysb.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Why are you so sure that Ukraine is a long-term event, uh? :-)
>>>Because Ukraine has survived for hundreds and hundreds of years, despite
>>>all adversity.:-)
>>You mean the Soviet version of Ukraine??? Noone even speaks Ukrainian in most
<MUNCH>
>On to a totally different subject - this group. Maybe since I'm new to the
>Internet I'm being naive, but I expected totally different types of discussion.
>I can't believe the whole discussion on whether ukraine should or shouldn't
>be an alt.current-events group. I just looked at the alt.current-events.russia
>group to see why they rate their own group and found most of the recent
>postings have to do with having sex with a menstruating woman. What does that
>have to do with the price of a ruble in Moscow? How is that a current event?
>And why do so many postings have such mean-spirited digs?
>I'll stop now and put on a flame proof suit as I await replies.
>Lida
*sigh*
It's like this: many non-alt groups are moderated. The alt groups, as a
general rule, are not.
a.c-e.r started out interestingly, esp with posts on what was going on
in Moscow, and elsewhere, during the crises of Yeltsin's military shutdown
of the parliament. It has degenerated into a bunch of sophomoric college
students having their own little personal flamewar (it should, perhaps,
be renamed, if that was possible, to alt.ex-soviet.students.agree-with-or
dislike-andrea, or maybe just alt.ex-soviet-students-that-want-to-insult-
andrea. Basically, they are clueless idiots, mostly. *Maybe* this newsgroup
won't go that way.
mark, *trying* to find out what's going on in the world, outside
the US all-the-news-that-we-want-to-print-media
YURI ZHARIKOV
>In article <2iol4i$i...@controversy.math.lsa.umich.edu>,
>Eduard Ponarin <e...@lotka.psc.lsa.umich.edu> wrote:
>[text extirpated]
>>Regarding language usage, Russian in its southern variety was the
>>language of the cities except for Western Ukraine which is
>>practically the only place where Russian is not used very much in
>>everyday life.
>Dyakuvaty Bohu that that fact is changing since the Russian
>occupation forces are no longer there.
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj, Ultor
Fortunately for the Ukraine this fact is changing in exactly OPPOSITE
direction.
And shut up about "Russian occupation forces" because some will start
talking about Ukrainian occupation forces soon.
Yura
Yury M. Mukharsky
>This is somehwat true, whereby the MaloRossiya term came about.
>The term, for Ukrainians and those of their heritage, is quite
>perjorative, insensitive, and invalid.
Bohdan you are Ukrainiofobic @#$%^. It was shown long ago, that
MaloRossia relates to Great Russia in the same way as "Small
Greece", or "Greece proper" to "Great Greece" or Greek Empire.
(Surprizingly no kidding this time. It's existing theory.)
Yury
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Theory for you, but in real life, not fact. To use your
analogy would be to equate Turkish (oh, oh, here comes Serdar!)
with Greek.
"Little Russian"s, Malorossiya, et cetera IS/WAS a pejorative
term for Ukrainians.
You blew it again, Yura. Vzhe dosyt', enough.
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
Eduard Ponarin <e...@umich.edu> wrote:
>In article <2ip96j$8...@panix.com>, boh...@panix.com (Bohdan Peter
>Rekshynskyj) writes:
>
>> >Second, your Russian occupation forces=Ukrainian national army today
>> They will include those Russians who did not want to go back to Russia,
>> yes. However the most notable Russian occupation force is in Krym
>> today. That is what I had more in mind.
>
>I can't see what you mean. You said "Praise the Lord that Russian
>occupational forces have left Ukraine". Now you are saying that what
>you really meant by your statement (or what you had in mind when you
>wrote it) is that Russian occupation force is still in Crimea. So,
>what do you really-really mean?
occupying the port at Sevastopil' in Krym (Crimea).
>> As an additional statement - it will not profit anyone to see
>> strife amongst Ukraine and Russia. Remember that.
>
>Did someone advocate a war between Ukraine and Russia here? I think
>it's hardly possible. I mean what kind of Russian would want to go
I do not think so. Russia, especially with the likes of the
jingoist Zhirinovsky, will "intervene" in the "near abroad".
Ostensibly to protect the "poor" Russian minority.
Mr. Poniarin - Ukraine has one of the best records in the NIS
(Newly Independent States), if not the best, in the treatment
of her minorities. Major accords have been signed with states
respecting and preserving the unique contribution these
minorities (which include Jews, Romanians/Moldovans, Hungarians
in addition to the Russians) have.
>across the border with Ukraine to Kharkov (Kharkiv), Chernigov
>(Chernihiv), Kiev (Kyyiv), etc. and do the things they usually do in
>a war? As I read in a UPI story, Moscow police does not even have the
Ah, American press again. I am convinced of their mediocrity and
banality. I look to Europe for a more educated and informed
coverage of events there. I do not disparage you here - all I
suggest is that you broaden your "information feeds".
>guts to apply the mayor's decree against profiteers to the Ukrainians
>and Belorussians trading on Moscow markets. (Whereas they apparently
>enjoy applying it to the others.) Get real: it's not those rotten
>and crumbling Ukrainian nukes or "Ukrainian national forces" that
>protect Ukraine from Russia. It's the fact that you guys are
>perceived in Russia as sort of Russians, be it offensive to you or
>not.
This is somehwat true, whereby the MaloRossiya term came about.
The term, for Ukrainians and those of their heritage, is quite
perjorative, insensitive, and invalid.
>Ed Ponarin,
>e...@umich.edu
>THESE OPINIONS MAY NOT COINCIDE WITH THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Yury M. Mukharsky
>analogy would be to equate Turkish (oh, oh, here comes Serdar!)
>with Greek.
>"Little Russian"s, Malorossiya, et cetera IS/WAS a pejorative
>term for Ukrainians.
Just FYI, the theory I spoke about belongs to professor whose name
escapes me at the moment from "Independent Ukrainian University" or so
exsisted before WWII in Prague.
>
>You blew it again, Yura. Vzhe dosyt', enough.
Chi vi pane pevni, khto "blew it"?
Yury
Eduard Ponarin
(Some banal statements deleted.)
>Yes, the vassal of Golden Horde Ivan Kalyta moved Patriarch from Kyyiv to
>Moscow and named him "Patriarch of Kyyiv and All Rus".
You immediately expose your ignorance. The Patriarchate in Russia was
established in the end of the 16th century, some 250 years after Ivan Kalita
died, that's number one. Number two, the Metropolitan of Kiev moved to Vladimir
(not in Volyn' but in Suzdal') rather than Moscow in mid-13th century by his own
initiative (Kiev was ruined and de-populated by the Mongols) some time before
Ivan Kalita was born. Number three, under Ivan Kalita Metropolitan Peter
moved to Moscow from Vladimir only after unsuccessfully trying to establish his
headquarters in Tver. (He and the prince of Tver didn't get along.) His move
was as voluntary as could be. Number four, the Church of Constantinople (of
which the Russian church was a branch until the end of the 16th century) has
always tried to preserve the unity of the Russian metropoly and therefore fully
supported the claims of Vladimir and later Moscow metropolitans on all Russian
metropoly.
>Russian language generally was developed on the basis of the ancient Ukrainian
>language.
:-) I might as well say that Ukrainian language generally was developed in
mid-19th century as combination of local village talk with Polish loan words
at which point it was forbidden by the central government as a dangerous
innovation. But notice, I'm not saying that (;-), although I would be much
closer to the truth than you are.
>Monetary contributions from Moscow were for Moscow troops.
Why did Mazepa beg Peter for that contribution then? Must have loved those
Moscow troops. :-)
>Ukrainians have known better how to deal with Crimean Tatars than Moscow;
>for that reason, Crimea became the part of the Russian empire only after
>the efforts of Ukraine.
>After rebirth of the Ukrainian statehood in the 16-17-th century,
>Ukraine became protected well from Tatars.
You probably believe in glorious Ukrainian Cossackdom which
supposedly established a mighty Ukrainian Cossack republic. This
is baloney in which only semi-educated romantic nationalists
believe.
Here is a quiz for you, Basil. Who was a prominent Ukrainian
nationalist, a friend and collaborator of Shevchenko in his
younger years, who wrote historical articles glorifying the
Cossacks until he started to read the sources? Then he became
silent for some years. When he resumed publishing, he visibly
changed his views and engaged into a polemic argument with
Shevchenko. Here is what he wrote in reply to Shevchenko, using
Shevchenko's own pseudo-folk style (I BEAR NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR
THE CONTENT AND QUALITY OF THE FOLLOWING VERSES OR ORTHOGRAPHICAL
MISTAKES THEREIN):
Ne heroyi pravdy-voly
V kamyshy khovalys',
Ta z tatarynom druzhyly,
Z turchynom jednalys'.
...
Pavljuky ta khmel'nykivtsy -
Khizhaky, p'janytsy;
Derly shkuru z Ukrayiny
Jak zhydy z telytsy.
A zidravshy shkuru,
Mjasom z turchynom delylys',
Poki vsi polja kistkamy
Bilymy pokrylys'.
So, can you tell me who that was? Also, try to read historical
sources, rather than nationalist propaganda. May be, that will
change your opinions.
>Ukrainian population wasn't serfs like in the Russian empire, and therefore
>was quite rich.
This statement is wrong in several ways. Number one, authors
generally agree that materially, Russian peasants were better off
than say, Irish peasants, who were "free". Number two, authors
also agree that the plight of those who lived in Eastern Ukraine
was terrible. They lived in pits because it didn't make sense to
build a house since it would be destroyed in the next Tatar raid.
Number three, you are wrong in saying that there were no serfs in
Cossack-controlled Ukraine. There are many documents and sources
which suggest that prominent Cossacks started enserfing their
neighbors long before 1775 (?) when Catherine brought Ukrainian
laws in agreement with Russian. The names of the following Ukrainian
landlords come immediately to mind: Zoshchenko, Rodzianko, Gogol'
(sorry, just can't write Hohol', 'cause it's too similar to
Khokhol ;-). Catherine did not introduce serfdom in Ukraine, as
some nationalists allege, she simply recognized the status quo.
>It was Ukrainians who contributed the most to taking of Crimea and Southern
>Ukraine.
:-) Yes, without those great Ukrainian generals Suvorov
and Rumjancev Russia would never get Crimea. Seriously, I
can only repeat my advice to read sources instead of
propaganda.
>And in my native country officially estimated 7,500,000 people died of
>starvation without any bombs during a year.
Ukrainian nationalists usually interpret the tragedy in Ukraine as
genocide of Ukrainians by the Russians. However, did it ever
occur to you that Russian people died as well of starvation in
Volga area in 1920s? (About 10 years before it happenned in
Ukraine.) That area on Volga was as big a breadbasket as Ukraine
was before the revolution. Did it ever occur to you that the
Bolsheviks wanted to break the backbone of the wealthy peasantry
rather than exterminate one particular ethnic group?
Peter V.Vorobieff
of Ed Ponarin.
I have to add (specifically for loonies) that I represent my
views on _history_ only and in no way imply any projections
on the issues of the present Ukrainian culture, independence
and statehood.
Speaking of the latter, however, I invite everybody to agree
with me that having the kind of a president Kravchuk is is a
shame for any self-respecting state.
>You probably believe in glorious Ukrainian Cossackdom which
>supposedly established a mighty Ukrainian Cossack republic. This
>is baloney in which only semi-educated romantic nationalists
>believe.
Ukraine (to be exact, the part of Kiev Rus' that later became
Ukraine) suffered the most from Baty Khan invasion in 1237-1241.
Kiev and other cities were razed. Depopulation was catastrophic.
The land did not recover even until sixteenth-seventeenth century
when a large part of it was a devastated, stateless battleground
sacked by the Tartars, raided by the Cossacks and occasionally entered
by the Poles. The only parts of the modern Ukraine that were
relatively well-to-do were those under the dominion of Poland.
Sixteenth or seventeenth century authors did not use the term
"Ukraine". They used "Dikoye Polye".
'nuff said.
223...@msu.edu
e...@east.psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
>In article <16F53103A...@msu.edu> 223...@msu.edu writes:
>>Yes, the vassal of Golden Horde Ivan Kalyta moved Patriarch from Kyyiv to
>>Moscow and named him "Patriarch of Kyyiv and All Rus".
>
>You immediately expose your ignorance. The Patriarchate in Russia was
>established in the end of the 16th century, some 250 years after Ivan Kalita
>died, that's number one. Number two, the Metropolitan of Kiev moved to Vladimir
All Rus" confirms nobody in Moscow cared about whether one is Metroplitan,
Patriarch, or Holy Synod. Sometimes before Patriarchate two Metropolitans
simultaneously existed for Moscow.
>(not in Volyn' but in Suzdal') rather than Moscow in mid-13th century by his own
sources) left Kyyiv after other people left Kyyiv; even after more than 250
years, in 1552, Kyyiv had less than 500 homes.
>initiative (Kiev was ruined and de-populated by the Mongols) some time before
>Ivan Kalita was born. Number three, under Ivan Kalita Metropolitan Peter
>moved to Moscow from Vladimir only after unsuccessfully trying to establish his
death of Alexander Suzdalsky.
>headquarters in Tver. (He and the prince of Tver didn't get along.) His move
in its struggle against Golden Horde but also supported Golden Horde then.
Ivan Kalyta served Golden Horde for the ticket (yarlyk) to be the grand prince
and collect taxes (dan'); that is why he was called Kalyta (Stock).
>was as voluntary as could be. Number four, the Church of Constantinople (of
and All Rus id Kyyiv?
>which the Russian church was a branch until the end of the 16th century) has
>always tried to preserve the unity of the Russian metropoly and therefore fully
Ukrainians brought Christianity to Eastern Europe?
>supported the claims of Vladimir and later Moscow metropolitans on all Russian
>metropoly.
developed culture, and Kievan literature, art, architecture reflected this.
And Peter I was especially severe in his policies toward the Russian Orthodox
Church, which he believed had retarded the development of the Russian state.
>>Russian language generally was developed on the basis of the ancient Ukrainian
>>language.
>
>:-) I might as well say that Ukrainian language generally was developed in
>mid-19th century as combination of local village talk with Polish loan words
9-th (not 19-th) century.
>at which point it was forbidden by the central government as a dangerous
>innovation. But notice, I'm not saying that (;-), although I would be much
>closer to the truth than you are.
>>Monetary contributions from Moscow were for Moscow troops.
>
>Why did Mazepa beg Peter for that contribution then? Must have loved those
>Moscow troops. :-)
>>Ukrainians have known better how to deal with Crimean Tatars than Moscow;
>>for that reason, Crimea became the part of the Russian empire only after
>>the efforts of Ukraine.
>
>>After rebirth of the Ukrainian statehood in the 16-17-th century,
>>Ukraine became protected well from Tatars.
>
>You probably believe in glorious Ukrainian Cossackdom which
>supposedly established a mighty Ukrainian Cossack republic. This
>is baloney in which only semi-educated romantic nationalists
>believe.
The Ukrainian Kozak Republic was the first democracy in Eastern Europe,
democracy of Ukrainians, Armenians, Jews, Turks and other nations.
That Ukrainian Republic was the most militarized in Europe; incidentally,
it remains the most militarized in Europe after 4 centuries.
>Here is a quiz for you, Basil. Who was a prominent Ukrainian
>nationalist, a friend and collaborator of Shevchenko in his
was Ukrainian nationalist.
>younger years, who wrote historical articles glorifying the
>Cossacks until he started to read the sources? Then he became
>silent for some years. When he resumed publishing, he visibly
When Sirko liberated about 7,000 Ukrainians in Crimea, about 50% of them
were willing to stay in Crimea and not return to Sich.
Ukrainians gradually have become majority in Crimea.
>changed his views and engaged into a polemic argument with
>Shevchenko. Here is what he wrote in reply to Shevchenko, using
>Shevchenko's own pseudo-folk style (I BEAR NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR
>THE CONTENT AND QUALITY OF THE FOLLOWING VERSES OR ORTHOGRAPHICAL
>MISTAKES THEREIN):
>
> Ne heroyi pravdy-voly
> V kamyshy khovalys',
> Ta z tatarynom druzhyly,
> Z turchynom jednalys'.
> ...
> Pavljuky ta khmel'nykivtsy -
> Khizhaky, p'janytsy;
> Derly shkuru z Ukrayiny
> Jak zhydy z telytsy.
> A zidravshy shkuru,
> Mjasom z turchynom delylys',
> Poki vsi polja kistkamy
> Bilymy pokrylys'.
Moscow vassal.
>So, can you tell me who that was? Also, try to read historical
reading of Kulish, Smotrytsky, Skovoroda, Kapnist, Kostomarov, Hrinchenko,
Drahomanov, Krymsky, Vernadsky, Hryshevsky, Stus, Szpolyuk and others, in
addition to usual readings of secondary school.
Ukrainians Hohol, Nekrasov, Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Mayakovsky who wrote in
Russian are also fine.
Here are 2 quizes.
1. Which famous ancient text uses the Ukrainian words "vabyty", "vel'my",
"vpasty", "diyaty", "dryhy", "zhyto", "koryty"?
2. What is the name of the following folk song?
Pishet synochku mat': A mother writes to her [imprisoned] son
"Synochek moj rodnoj, "My dear beloved son,
Ved' i Rossiya vsya - You know that all Russia is
Eto konclager' bol'shoj". A big concentration camp".
>sources, rather than nationalist propaganda. May be, that will
In 1482 the Crimean Khan Girey (anchestor of Ivan the Terrible), inspired
by promises of gifts from Ivan III of Muscovy, captured and decisively
destroyed Kyyiv, plundered the Caves Monastery and the cathedral of
St.Sophia, and triumphantly sent Ivan III a golden chalice robbed from the
latter.
In 1993 the cathedral of St.Sophia in Kyyiv was also plundered.
>change your opinions.
It is difficult to change the past although the Russian and Soviet empire
is known by its attempts to change the past and develop opinions.
>>Ukrainian population wasn't serfs like in the Russian empire, and therefore
>>was quite rich.
>
>This statement is wrong in several ways. Number one, authors
>generally agree that materially, Russian peasants were better off
>than say, Irish peasants, who were "free". Number two, authors
exception of several years of harvest failure.
Irish peasants are better off than kolhozniks and sovkhozniks of the
Russian Federation, at least from 1917.
>also agree that the plight of those who lived in Eastern Ukraine
>was terrible. They lived in pits because it didn't make sense to
>build a house since it would be destroyed in the next Tatar raid.
Ukrainians preferred permanent residence in safe areas.
Every spring Ukrainians moved to unoccupied steppes where they lived by
fishing, hunting and bee keeping. As they increased in number, they began
to organize themselves into armed bands and in the early spring went on
expeditions into the steppes, staying there until early winter and coming
back to their permanent residences with great supplies of hides, cattle,
fish and honey.
About 1550 Prince Vyshnevetsky built a strong permanent fortress (sich)
on the Dnipro rapids. Gradually Sich has become military power.
The years 1600-20 marked the heroic era when Kozaks in their light boats
called "seagulls" (chaiky) cruised unhampered on the Black Sea, inflicting
defeats upon the Crimea and Ottoman porte at a time when Europe was
trembling in fear of the Turks.
Sich intervened Crimea, Moldavia, Wallachia, Muscovy.
For example, in 1624 Doroshenko intervened Crimea at the request of one of the
claimants on the trone in Crimea.
>Number three, you are wrong in saying that there were no serfs in
>Cossack-controlled Ukraine. There are many documents and sources
different; basically, before 1654 Ukraine never knew such a slavery as in the
Russian and Soviet empire.
>which suggest that prominent Cossacks started enserfing their
>neighbors long before 1775 (?) when Catherine brought Ukrainian
>laws in agreement with Russian. The names of the following Ukrainian
People Are Judged".
>landlords come immediately to mind: Zoshchenko, Rodzianko, Gogol'
>(sorry, just can't write Hohol', 'cause it's too similar to
>Khokhol ;-). Catherine did not introduce serfdom in Ukraine, as
>some nationalists allege, she simply recognized the status quo.
Siberia, Alaska.
Such way Ukrainian nationalists appeared in Asia and America, but without
serfdom because they never knew serfdom before liqidation of Sich.
>>It was Ukrainians who contributed the most to taking of Crimea and Southern
>>Ukraine.
>
>:-) Yes, without those great Ukrainian generals Suvorov
>and Rumjancev Russia would never get Crimea. Seriously, I
>can only repeat my advice to read sources instead of
>propaganda.
Crimea has become part of the Russian empire only after help of Ukraine.
Which nationalists deported Crimean Tatars from Crimea when Crimea was part
of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic?
>>And in my native country officially estimated 7,500,000 people died of
>>starvation without any bombs during a year.
>
>Ukrainian nationalists usually interpret the tragedy in Ukraine as
>genocide of Ukrainians by the Russians. However, did it ever
of Ukraine, in 1939 - 9.2%.
>occur to you that Russian people died as well of starvation in
>Volga area in 1920s? (About 10 years before it happenned in
>Ukraine.) That area on Volga was as big a breadbasket as Ukraine
of 1922: "8 mn souls were starving in the south of Ukraine, 2.5 mn of them
had absolutely nothing to eat. In Zaporoje 1 mn souls are literally starving.
Child mortality is tremendeous, it reaches 50%. 10,000 people die in Zaporoje
daily".
Harold Fisher, Head of America Relief Administration (ARA) in the Soviets at
that time: "The Moscow government and so-called Kharkov government did not
undertake anything serious for the aid to the hungry people in Ukraine. From
the first the Moscow Government had discouraged all proposals which tended to
bring the ARA contact with Ukraine and demanded from ARA not to split its
forces, but to concentrate them on the Volga area".
About 2 mn Ukrainians died in the famine 1921-22.
>was before the revolution. Did it ever occur to you that the
>Bolsheviks wanted to break the backbone of the wealthy peasantry
>rather than exterminate one particular ethnic group?
known, particularly to OGPU.Basil
Rear-Admiral P.Pydorenko
>
> For instance, Admiral Pidorenko thinks that ukrainians have
> no brains at all.
The physical examination of Ukrainian illegal immigrants
captured while trying to cross the border into Russia
revealed multiple anal infections, intestine parasites,
lice, and other deceases. The physical examination
did reveal also the presence of bone and spine brain.
Therefore I would never say that Ukrainians "have no brains at all".
Petro Pydorenko, Rear-Admiral
KGB Information Agency
Shabolovka 37
Moscow, Russia
dmitry pruss
>> For instance, Admiral Pidorenko thinks that ukrainians have
>> no brains at all.
>
>did reveal also the presence of bone and spine brain.
>
>KGB Information Agency
>Shabolovka 37
>Moscow, Russia
Petro, you better post in Russian if you can't cope with the
English terminology.
Ever heard a word 'bone marrow' ?
(Of course you should have heard - don't they have leaflets asking
for transplant donations in U Ohio?)
D
y...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Vytiahaty Pan'ka proty T.G. vse odno shcho Marksa proty Engel'sa,
abo Bojl'a proty Mariott'a.
-Yaroslaw.
Russ Mestechkin/303875/burlingt/B00003d
!news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!
magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
!metaphor.com! ... relay.fuug.fi!kiae!kgb.msk.su!pydorenko
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ivan - islib vse bylo tak prosto ia by byl Grafom Montekriso.
--
RM mest...@vnet.ibm.com
________________________________________
...if all you told was turned to gold,
if all you dreamed were new,
imagine sky high above
in Caribbean blue
...Earus... Afer Ventus...
Dima Volodin
: Path: hawnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com
: !news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!
: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
: !metaphor.com! ... relay.fuug.fi!kiae!kgb.msk.su!pydorenko
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Ivan - islib vse bylo tak prosto ia by byl Grafom Montekriso.
Da ladno - vpolne estestvennaya viznyukovskaya reakcia na
Ivana :-)
: RM mest...@vnet.ibm.com
Dima
Ivan Covdy
# Xref: cronos soc.culture.ukrainian:1101 soc.culture.soviet:24289
# Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM.
# Nntp-Posting-Host: tfkiev.btv.ibm.com
#
# Path: hawnews.watson.ibm.com!newsgate.watson.ibm.com
# !news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!
# magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
# !metaphor.com! ... relay.fuug.fi!kiae!kgb.msk.su!pydorenko
# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# Ivan - islib vse bylo tak prosto ia by byl Grafom Montekriso.
Da, Russ, vse ne tak prosto:
Vo-pervyh, esli b ja chto-to fordzhal, to ispol'zoval skoree uzh chuzhoj
kompjuter, chem svoj.
Vo-vtoryh, ja nikogda ne opuschus' do urovnja "okraincy po godu ne mojutsja
i u nih glisty i vshi v zadnice", eto prosto ne moj stil'. Voobsche-to, eto
stil' Steshenko, no v dannom konkretnom sluchae eto, ochevidno, Viznjuk, -
on zachastuju ne brezguet opuskat'sja do urovnja Steshenko.
# --
# RM mest...@vnet.ibm.com
# ________________________________________
# ...if all you told was turned to gold,
# if all you dreamed were new,
# imagine sky high above
# in Caribbean blue
# ...Earus... Afer Ventus...
--
Ivan Covdy, co...@hapner.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc., CA, USA
*** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Space, ***
*** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
Dimitri Vulis, CUNY GC Math
>Vo-pervyh, esli b ja chto-to fordzhal, to ispol'zoval skoree uzh chuzhoj
>kompjuter, chem svoj.
Dimitri Vulis
CUNY GC Math
D...@CUNYVMS1.BITNET D...@CUNYVMS1.GC.CUNY.EDU
Disclaimer: my Usenet postings don't necessarily represent anyone's views,
especially my own and/or CUNY's.
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
our universities in the states and are forged.
Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
dmitry pruss
>In article <1994Feb12.1...@alw.nih.gov>,
>dmitry pruss <pr...@helix.nih.gov> wrote:
>>In article <F90...@kgb.msk.su> pydo...@kgb.msk.su (Rear-Admiral P.Pydorenko) writes:
(quoted texts deleted)
>It's a forgery. No such chap. The posts emanate from one of
^^^^^^^^^
>our universities in the states and are forged.
^^^^^ >
> Bohdan Petro Rekshyns'kyj
Bohdan, why are you so hasty?
Won't you take my word that *my* post wasn't forged, and, as a matter of
fact, no college was involved?
;-) apologies requested,
Cheers,
D
PS: Unlike you, I tend to thing that pydo...@kgb.msk.su is a fairly
choosen alias which doesn't seriously break the rules of net.etiquette
(because it doesn't match the net.IDs of any existing person or
institution). Forgery is too strong a word in this case.
Besides, in spite of the fact that pydorenko's *humour* is quite dumb,
there's only a handfull of humo-challenged people who'd take him seriously.
For those who are indeed so challenged, the Net is a torture anyway, and by
explaining this one trick to them, you can't spare them of falling into
similar fool-traps in future.
Russ Mestechkin/303875/burlingt/B00003d
|> # !news.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!
|> # magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
|> # !metaphor.com! ... relay.fuug.fi!kiae!kgb.msk.su!pydorenko
|> # ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>
|> Da, Russ, vse ne tak prosto:
My apologies than.
|> Vo-vtoryh, ja nikogda ne opuschus' do urovnja "okraincy po godu ne mojutsja
|> i u nih glisty i vshi v zadnice", eto prosto ne moj stil'.
|>
Why did the asshole frame you? I don't believe that your gateway is feeding
kiae, is it?
--
RM mest...@vnet.ibm.com
________________________________________
...if all you told was turned to gold,
if all you dreamed were new,
Dmitri Manin
this is produced by a super-user, right, super vulis? If so, that does
narrow the possible range of authors (there's not that many
super-users among habitual scs posters, are there?).
Also the author forgot to forge Sender: field, which sais
ne...@kiae.su. Path agrees with that:
"...edu!metaphor.com!relay.fuug.fi!kiae!kgb.msk.su!pydorenko" (the
forged part goes on the right of kiae).
Hence, somebody with a super-user account at Kurchatnik. Akh kak uzok
krug etikh...
- M
Igor Belchinskiy
[...]
Just a hint - if you see too many ohio.edu in the path
of the Okranian forgery - should I continue?
--
Igor Belchinskiy b...@sdsp.mc.xerox.com
bil.w...@xerox.com Opinions are mine and strong.
y...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
I M A G I N E
While we waste our time in useless debates
in enormous Ocean
Rear-Admiral Petro Pydorenko
sails his steel Battleships...
Y.
Ivan Covdy
# Xref: cronos soc.culture.soviet:24335 soc.culture.ukrainian:1113
# NNTP-Posting-Host: cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
#
# In article <36...@cronos.metaphor.com>, co...@hapner.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
#>Vo-pervyh, esli b ja chto-to fordzhal, to ispol'zoval skoree uzh chuzhoj
#>kompjuter, chem svoj.
# You're welcome to do it on BBB BBS: 718-261-2013.
# Dimitri Vulis
# CUNY GC Math
# D...@CUNYVMS1.BITNET D...@CUNYVMS1.GC.CUNY.EDU
#
# Disclaimer: my Usenet postings don't necessarily represent anyone's views,
# especially my own and/or CUNY's.
I meant other ways, in particular, using telnet to talk to a remote nntp server.
dmitry pruss
Ukrainian history ;-) Not that I didn't contribute... still I can't match
Basil or Mykola with their 300-liners.
Of course it's very difficult to follow such a monstrously huge
article up. Even more, Mykola explicitly hints that no one shall
follow up unless in Ukrainian. (A similar approach is shared to a
great extent by Bohdan who is greatly concerned by creation of
a moderated Ukrainian forum, where no outsiders would be allowed
to post).
Why are they trying to protect their version of Ukrainian history
from being freely discussed?
There's only one possible explanation: that they are almost certain
that their version will fall apart in the first collisions with the
facts, and that they are ashamed of the real history of their country.
The fear of the history? Doesn't it sound Orwellian? (and it may in
fact be genetically linked to the old Communist stereotypes of Controlled
Information).
No, guys, I can't buy it. The history of Russia and Ukraine (and of
almost any old country) is full of atrocities, but it isn't the
case when one should hide the truth to avoid embarassment. No, real
ebarassment, real shame is _when_the_history_is_being_denied.
In other words, by listening to the stories of old, we can learn
little about who's right and who's wrong now. But, by looking who
is shy of the old stories, we can learn very much about it.
:) after this long preface, I hope people will forgive me my xposting
to scu and aceu in English ;-)
It's gonna be _very_ long post, and I have to break it into parts
according to the following groups of Basil's/Mykola's statements:
1) Moscow stole the Mitropolite/Patriarch seat from Kiev
2) Moscow conspired with Batu Khan to destroy Kiev
3) Moscow conspired with Khan Girey to destroy Kiev
4) The Cossack leaders didn't cooperate with Tatars, but wielded a
great influence over them.
One morally charged question will be reiterated through the entire
discussion:
"Moscow always cooperated with the Tatars and shall be ashamed of it;
Ukraine protected the Faith from the Tatars and shall be proud of it."
Part 1:
In article <16F5A124F...@msu.edu> 2231...@msu.edu writes:
>e...@east.psc.lsa.umich.edu (Eduard Ponarin) writes:
>>In article <16F53103A...@msu.edu> 223...@msu.edu writes:
lines into your texts - they're terribly hard to read!)
>>>Ivan Kalyta moved Patriarch from Kyyiv to
>>>Moscow and named him "Patriarch of Kyyiv and All Rus".
>>
(Basil apparently checked the sources and presented a more balanced
view - good enough to be argued with :-) :
Now he admits that it was Metropolitan rather than Patriarch and he moved
to Vladimir rather than to Moscow
>in 1300; Metrpolitan Maxim (Peter, by other
>sources) left Kyyiv after other people left Kyyiv; even after more than 250
>years, in 1552, Kyyiv had less than 500 homes.
Metropolitan in 1305.
But it should be no secret for you that the center of political power
in Russian lands moved from Kiev to Vladimir over a century before (when
neither Moscow nor Mongols were heard of). After a brief and largely
superficial revival of Kievan Grand Duchy by Vladimir II Monomakh in
mid-XIIth century, Andrei Bogolyubskij of Vladimir took and plundered
the city of Kiev, got the title of the Kievan Grand Duke _but_ transferred
the seat to his home Vladimir. There it remained, to be finally inherited
by the Muscovite Grand Dukes (together with the famed Monomakh's Crown).
Now, a great chunk of today's Ukraine and a home of Metropolitan
Petr, Galich-Volyn', formed a separate powerful state in late XIIth
century. Its largely pro-Western orientation finally allowed Duke
Daniil Romanovich to get a King's Crown from the Roman Pope.
Don't you find it natural that the clergy didn't like the Galician
state a bit? (And BTW - the stake on the West didn't help Daniil's
heirs a bit: Poland, Hungary and Lithuania tore it apart a century
after the Mongols' invasion). Why would they have liked the
Nothern Rus' lands? I'll discuss it below, but first, for
chronology sake, let me quote Mykola Sereda:
>Muscovites betrayed the
>Great King during the invasion of Batu-khan in 1237. The Great King Yuri
>was killed, as witnesses all historical evidence, by the founders of the
>Muscovite nation, to gain Batu's favors. So, they killed the Great King,
>by memory, I think, it was in 1237 on River Sit. To be more exact, Batu
>sacked the city of Riazan first, and seeing his might, the Muscovites
>chose treason to buy off the powerful invader and promised their
>servitude to Batu-khan. Thus Batu spared other cities in the North,
>and with his newly acquired vassals, moved against Kiev in 1240.
Uff... what a chunk of historical revisionism! First and most interesting,
the Great King mentioned here (Grand Duke or Great Prince in various
Western sources), Yuri of Vladimir was a grandson to Andrei Bogolyubski,
so, apparently, not a kind of a duke the hardcore Kievan jingoists would
love.
Second, Moscow belonged to _his_ domain and it wasn't even a Duchy seat
at that time (only almost half a century later Alexander Nevsky gave it
as a seat to his young son Daniil, as a sort of symbolic prize). In fact
it was of so little importance in the times of Batu Khan that the
Chronicles didn't mention it _at_all_ !
Third, in Yuri's domain, no one opted for treason except for him.
Yuri's capital, Vladimir, was stormed and reduced to rubble by the
Mongols. There's little doubt that tiny Moscow had the same fate. As to
the humble person of Yuri, he fled towards the border with Novgorod,
intending to hide in the woods till it's over. To his misfortune, a
small Mongol regiment of Burundai happened to come to his hideout, and
that's how he died.
A few cities did buy the Khan's favours, most notably Uglich. Yet none
of them sent regiments to fight alongside with Batu, not in 1237, nor
in 1240 (when again, the Dukes of Bolkhov in Volyn' opted to pay ransom,
mostly in horses the Mongols desperately needed).
Meanwhile, Vladimir and North-Western Rus' remained a stronghold of
Orthodoxy. As early as in 1240ies, St. Alexander Nevsky upheld
the Western borders against the Teutonic and Swedish crusaders,
and liquidated pro-Catholic heresies in Novgorod. Later on, he used
his connections among the Oriental Christians in the Horde to
establish an influential Orthodoxal eparchy there. Both Vladimir
and Moscow passed to his heirs, and the warm relations of the
Metropoly with them were absolutely natural.
Quoting Ed & Basil again:
[Rev. Petr]
>>moved to Moscow from Vladimir only after unsuccessfully trying to
>Metroplitan Pheognost, living in Vladimir, has belonged to Moscow after the
>death of Alexander Suzdalsky.
be noted that the final choice in favour of Moscow was made by Petr's
successor (after 1325), Theognost, an ethnic Greek.
It should be noted that Moscow was steadily gaining importance in Peter's
time, but it was still too small to consider it seriously. At the turn
of XIVth century (when the Metropoly already established in Vladimir),
the duchy of Moscow was no larger than the outer suburbs of today's
Moscow. Such places as Kolomna or Mozhaisk (in some 60 miles from
the downtown) were "abroad". Under Kalita's father, it already was
almost an equal rival to Suzdal and Twer'.
As to Petr's troubles with Twer' (hope that Viznyuk won't read this!),
the matter was fairly simple: the episcope of Twer' charged Petr in
corruption. It took an Ecclesial Congress to lift the allegations!
By mid-1320ies, the matters with Twer' became more politicized: it
entered an alliance with then-Paganist Lithuania against the Tatars
(and remained in such alliance for a better part of XIV and XVth
centuries), and as such, it was becoming a bad place for the top Orthodox
hyerarch. (The Lithuanians already annexed Black and White Rus' and were
about to take most of today's Ukraine by then)
The things were getting worse in Suzdal as well - it so
heavily relied on then-Islamized Tatars that the dukes allowed the
Muslims to settle on their lands (while in Moscow, conversion to
Orthodoxy remained a must).
In a few decades, Orthodoxy evolved in truly intolerant ideology,
best associated with the name of St. Sergius of Radonezh. From late
1360ies to 1380 they twice defeated Lithuanians under the walls
of Moscow, banned the Catholic merchants of Genoa, repelled the
Tatars near Vladimir and, finally, held against the combined
assault by the Tatars and Lithuanians at Kulikovo Field. But this
is another story...
Not this time anyway :)
Cheers,
D
Simon Streltsov
: follow up unless in Ukrainian. (A similar approach is shared to a
: great extent by Bohdan who is greatly concerned by creation of
: a moderated Ukrainian forum, where no outsiders would be allowed
: to post).
: Why are they trying to protect their version of Ukrainian history
: from being freely discussed?
it could be that he is annoyed by necessity of arguing all the time
with Russian position and wants to move on?
I had similar feeling, when my post re: forced assimilation and
inputing informers in Volozhin yeshiva up to closing it was
answered by "it is good to know one more language".
Of course, exposure to propoganda makes all of us do very stupid
statements here, but dealing with it already takes too much energy of
all participants .
I do not see anything wrong with a desire to create
a moderated forum per se
first, if it is a moderated forum and it is clearly says: it is
moderated, why not.
It will not prevent others from creating and reading other -
unmoderated - forums - on the same topic.
On the other hand:
From the experience of Jewish groups :
on s.c.jewish once a month people propose moderation
(50% of the traffic is Xian missionaries, alt.sex people protesting
circumcision, etc, while 30% is a _very_ good-level discussion).
It was always regected : people are ready to suffer noise in order
to have free opinions expressed.
Senya Streltsov
Hank Streeter
<pr...@helix.nih.gov> wrote an extremely long tome ;-), which I have not had
time to read and contemplate. However, I do wish to comment on Dmitry's
preamble (excerpted for brevity):
> Why are they trying to protect their version of Ukrainian history
>from being freely discussed?
Dmitry, I don't think there is an active attempt to prevent free
discussion of Ukrainian history NOR to promote a "Ukrainian" version of
Ukrainian history. However, there IS an active campaign by certain
posters to revise or reinterpret historical facts. (For example, I refer
you to the recent threads I've been participating in.)
> There's only one possible explanation: that they are almost certain
>that their version will fall apart in the first collisions with the
>facts, and that they are ashamed of the real history of their country.
Ukrainians are no more "ashamed" of their country's history than any
other people are of theirs. Every nation, every country has had violent,
regrettable, shameful episodes in their history. However, it is
counterproductive and unhealthy for people today to focus or obsess on
the shame or disgrace of the past. Historical facts have to be accepted,
understood, and examined. Actions that led to shameful acts must be
understood so that they can be avoided in the future. Only through the
realistic non-revisionist study of our past can we work towards avoiding
similar mistakes in the future.
> No, guys, I can't buy it. The history of Russia and Ukraine (and of
>almost any old country) is full of atrocities, but it isn't the
>case when one should hide the truth to avoid embarassment. No, real
>ebarassment, real shame is _when_the_history_is_being_denied.
Agreed. So let's stop the rewriting of the past and try to discuss salient
points from a non-partizan position. (Forgive my cynicism, but good
luck!! ;-)
> In other words, by listening to the stories of old, we can learn
>little about who's right and who's wrong now. But, by looking who
>is shy of the old stories, we can learn very much about it.
My point exactly.
The erroneous characterization of Russia as "The Big Bad Wolf" and
Ukraine as "The Poor Victimized Lamb" promoted by certain factions is as
untrue as it is insulting to both countries. To oversimplify and shoehorn
the two nations into these unflattering stereotypical charicatures
is to do injustice to both nations.
Larisa
anu...@neosoft.com
Eduard Ponarin
I'd like to point out and/or ask a couple of things regarding your recent
post.
In article <1994Feb16.0...@alw.nih.gov> you write:
>The sence of the latter quote slides away from here, yet it indeed should
>be noted that the final choice in favour of Moscow was made by Petr's
>successor (after 1325), Theognost, an ethnic Greek.
Wasn't Peter buried in Moscow, though?
>It should be noted that Moscow was steadily gaining importance in Peter's
>time, but it was still too small to consider it seriously. At the turn
>of XIVth century (when the Metropoly already established in Vladimir),
>the duchy of Moscow was no larger than the outer suburbs of today's
>Moscow. Such places as Kolomna or Mozhaisk (in some 60 miles from
>the downtown) were "abroad". Under Kalita's father, it already was
>almost an equal rival to Suzdal and Twer'.
You sure wanted to say something other than what you seem to be saying
in the last sentence of this paragraph. Kalita was a son of
Daniel, the first prince of Moscow, and brother of Yuri/George who
first succeeded his father. Moscow was not a major player in
Daniel's time. Its only importance came from the fact that Daniel
was the son of Nevsky and thus was a heir to the throne of
Vladimir. He, however, died before Andrew, his older brother and
his children lost the inheritance claim. I'm sure that sentence
of yours is simply a typo; unfortunately, some people may isolate
this quote and condemn the whole posting which, I think, is very good.
I think your point about Ukrainians being afraid of openly and
honestly discussing their history is especially important.
>As to Petr's troubles with Twer' (hope that Viznyuk won't read this!),
>the matter was fairly simple: the episcope of Twer' charged Petr in
>corruption. It took an Ecclesial Congress to lift the allegations!
That's correct. But it seemed to me that Bishop of Tver sort of
acted on behalf of Prince of Tver. The problem was that the
Orthodox Church did not like Tver's pro-Lithuanian position and
favored the Horde over Lithuania because the former was important
for Constantinople's political and economical interests in
northern Black Sea region. The Tatars, although being
Islamicized, were quite tolerant toward Orthodoxy. That's why
I believe that my original statement (that Peter did not get
along with the Prince of Tver) is essentially correct.
>In a few decades, Orthodoxy evolved in truly intolerant ideology,
>best associated with the name of St. Sergius of Radonezh.
?? Would you elaborate on that?
Best regards,
Yury M. Mukharsky
>dmitry pruss (pr...@helix.nih.gov) wrote:
>I had similar feeling, when my post re: forced assimilation and
>inputing informers in Volozhin yeshiva up to closing it was
>answered by "it is good to know one more language".
>Of course, exposure to propoganda makes all of us do very stupid
>statements here, but dealing with it already takes too much energy of
It seems to me that this was the case of very stupid understanding, not
very
stupid statement. At least you can not judge, since statement, which was
"It's a stupid idea not to teach your children your ideas, just to protect
them from other ideas", apparently did not reach you.
Yury
Simon Streltsov
: In article <2js9u5$a...@news.bu.edu>, Simon Streltsov <sim...@bu.edu> wrote:
: >I had similar feeling, when my post re: forced assimilation and
: >answered by "it is good to know one more language".
: >Of course, exposure to propoganda makes all of us do very stupid
: >statements here, but dealing with it already takes too much energy of
: It seems to me that this was the case of very stupid understanding, not
: very stupid statement. At least you can not judge, since statement, which was
: "It's a stupid idea not to teach your children your ideas, just to protect
: them from other ideas", apparently did not reach you.
Yura, does this topic require explanation:
do I understand you right:
you think that the problem was that Volozhin wanted
to shield their students from new ideas?
If yes, I'll elaborate.
Senya
Yury M. Mukharsky
No, the point was that in order to shield his students from info
on which he did not approve, Volozhin did not give them what he
thought was valuable. Examples of same mentality:
"I will not send my son to university, because he can start using
drugs there."
"I will take away radios, since people can listen to foe's stations."
"I will better tell my people to burn themselfs, then allow them to surrender".
"I will not let this guy to go to conference abroad, since he will be subjected
to foe's propaganda."
Yury
223...@msu.edu
dmitry pruss, KGB, or Moscow.
It would be useful for dmitry pruss/viruses to learn the historical facts.
Hala'sz Sa'ndor
-- Now, a great chunk of today's Ukraine and a home of Metropolitan
-- Petr, Galich-Volyn', formed a separate powerful state in late XIIth
-- century. Its largely pro-Western orientation finally allowed Duke
-- Daniil Romanovich to get a King's Crown from the Roman Pope.
This is Ruthenia? Or what is Ruthenia?
Eugene Yevgeny Kholodenko
the US. Let me ask you a question than, why would you even consider not
posting about Ukraine's history. You live in a free country <please, I don't
want any discussion here from anyone, I'll use this as an axiom for now :)>,
so you may post or discuss whatever you want. It will be for
your readers to determine whether your opinions deserve their attention, but
you are completely free to say anything you want. Really. I promise. :)
Gene Y.Kholodenko