The essential differences between the Latin and modern Mass, astonishing!
polin
post on the soc.culture.polish and soc.culture.ukrainian.
I would like to email it for comment to an Ukrainian-Catholic bishop of Stamford
Dr. Basil Losten. Whoever knows his email please do it.
My question is if the Mass of the Ukrainian Rite has been also adulterated by the
Vatican II or it remains intact as the Mass of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
This is important because Levebrists instead of leaving the ex-Latin Rite should
switch to the Ukrainian Rite which among others permits married priesthood.
I short the text below states that the Pius V Mass was for individual [not
communal] sinners and sinfull priest transformed into spiritualist who presented
the sinners with real presence [not symbolic] of Christ in the consecrated bread
and vine.
Moreover the question to the Bishop Losten is if Ukrainian Catholics accepted the
theorem that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Polina Borowska with thanks
PS Incidentally, Bhimarama not once was determined by his opponents to be crazy
and hate-driven racist.
Think if this is correct after reading his text. If you like this text below or
you learned something from it email a thankyou note to Bhima. He is a young man.
BHIM...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Note: Cardinal Siri of Genoa ( the Arch-conservative and Right-winger ) not
> only ' almost ' got elected Pope in 1978 - he ACTUALLY WAS elected Pope
> back in 1958 instead of Cardinal Roncalli ( Pope John XXIII ) who was a
> Jew-o-philic crypto-Freemason and capital-"M" Modernist - THAT whole scandal
> is really some story !
>
> It was the Jews who were responsible for Siri's loss of the Papacy !
> ==============================================================================
> ============================================
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Check out Finally
> Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:22:32 EDT
> From: BHIM...@aol.com
> To: BHIM...@aol.com
>
> <A HREF="http://www.pax-et-veritas.org/vovii/docs/finally.htm">Click here:
> Finally</A>
>
> "INSIDE THE VATICAN," Lead Story, October 1998, p.13, reads:
>
> "Rome had been at pains during the 1970s and 1980s to see that no official
> schism occurred in the much-troubled Caltholic Church. That hope was dashed
> on June 30, 1988, when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, against Rome's express
> wishes, consecrated four bishops to ensure the future of his Society of St.
> Pius X.
>
> "The failure to head off the schism was never fully explained, though we know
> that Lefebvre had come to distrust nearly everyone in the Roman Curia,
> including Cardinal Ratzinger and the Pope, worrying that they -- and he --
> would be manipulated by their anti-Lefebvrist advisors. In this frame of
> mind, Lefebvre refused a proffered
> compromise and proceeded to the fateful consecrations.
>
> "Some in Rome, it is said, wanted Lefebvre to break with the Pope and go into
> schism, desiring that the traditionalist theology Lefebvre preached would
> then be irredeemably stigmatized as schismatic, even heretical. If that is
> so, they got part of their wish: Lefebvre died five years later without
> having been reconciled with Rome.
>
> "But the departure of Lefebvre was not the end of the traditionalist movement
> in Roman Catholicism.
>
> "First, Ratzinger saw to it that a new priestly society was formed, called
> the Fraternity of St. Peter, which would carry on many of the traditionalist
> views of the Lefebvrists, but within the Church. This movement, starting from
> the tiniest beginnings, has flourished.
>
> "Second, as the years have passed, the questioons Lefebvre raised in the
> 1970s and 1980s about the Council's teaching on religious freedom and its
> apparent abandonment of the traditional doctrine that there is 'no salvation
> outside the Church' have begun to be raised by others who have remained in
> the Church."
>
> (supra, p.17)
>
> "[3] THE LITURGY AND THE RETURN OF THE HOLY
>
> "John Paul seems to have recognized that modern man is hungry for 'the
> absolute,' and he seems increasingly to connect the increase of the hunger
> with the reform of the liturgy introduced after the Second Vatican Council.
> There yet remains time in this pontificate for some dramatic action to be
> taken on a matter which is of profound importance for all
> Catholics: the restoration of the solemnity of the Church's liturgy.
>
> "Recently, the Italian priest Gianni Baget Bozzo, for many years a close
> collaborator of Cardinal Giuseppe Siri of Genoa (who was twice almost elected
> Pope in 1978), raised the issue of the restoration of theliturgy in the
> Italian press. In an article in Il Giornale on August 26 entitled "Why the
> Latin Mass is Not a Rite for Nostalgics Only," Bozzo set
> forth the arguments in favor of the 'old Mass' which an increasing number in
> Rome are beginning to find compelling.
>
> "There has been an increase, in many dioceses, of the permission granted to
> the faithful to celebrate the traditional Catholic Mass, which dates back
> 1,800 years," Bozzo began. 'The Mass is called the Mass of St. Pius V because
> it was this Pope who codified its authentic text. It is in Latin and so
> starting to clebrate it again has up until now been seen as the longing of a
> club of nostalgics for the past in an age of globalization.'
>
> "But the desire for the 'old Mass' is more than just nostalgia and
> anxiety in the face of modernity, Bozzo argues.
>
> "'The groups in favor of the Mass of St. Pius V which sprang up immediately
> after the introduction of the reformed liturgy following the Second Vatican
> Council loved the beauty of the Latin language and of Gregorian chant, and so
> they wanted the Mass in Latin because it was in Latin,' he writes. 'But those
> who are interested in the Mass of
> St. Pius V today are not attracted by the Latin alone, but rather by the text
> of that Mass, independent of the language.'
>
> "It's not just the Latin and the chant that is at issue, but the content
> of the Mass, Bozzo argues.
>
> "'The post-conciliar reformed Mass is a different thing from the traditional
> Mass,' he says. 'It is certainly orthodox, but it does not have the mystical
> spiritual quality of the ancient Mass. The old Mass has a personal tone. The
> earthly celebrant is the priest, who feels himself to be a sinner who, as
> such, asks forgiveness. The people feel the same thing, and seek forgiveness
> in a personal self-accusation, not in a communal one. Each person is a
> sinner; collective sin does not exist. The word "we" appears only after the
> end of the penitential part of the Mass.
>
> "'Finally,' he writes, 'the entire old Mass is dominated by the proclamation
> of the real presence (not metaphorical or symbolic) of Christ under the
> appearance of bread and wine. The signs of the cross over the bread and the
> wine which accompany the Canon, indicate... the renewal of the sacrifice of
> the Cross. The kisses of the altar express a form of
> tenderness.
>
> "'There are great things in the Mass of St. Pius V that are not found in the
> Mass of Paul VI. The Mass of Paul VI is marked by an affective sterility....
> It is a cold Mass, to which guitars are added as an extraneous sound, with
> words without doctrine and music sometimes devoid of beauty. Could it be that
> there is some connection between the great crisis that invested the Church in
> the 1970s and the change in the Mass? Could it be that the crisis in priestly
> vocations stems from the loss of the sacrality of the priest, well-expressed
> in the ancient Mass?
>
> "'If the custom of celebrating this Mass should flourish once again among
> Catholics, even if only alongside the monopoly, rigorously imposed, of the
> reformed liturgy, it would be a good thing,' Bozzo sums up. 'The Council
> recognized the religious freedom of non-believers and multiplied the
> liturgical forms. Can there not be freedom in the post-conciliar Church to
> celebrate the Mass of the Tradition?'
>
> "It is, we think a good question, and one John Paul is clearly pondering."
polin
polin
BHIM...@aol.com wrote:
> Some time hopefully in the not too distant future I would very much like to
> have the opportunity to go into a lot of detail on the issues of what exactly
> happened behind-the-scenes at that epocal 1958 Papal conclave that insued
> upon the demise of Pope Pius XII ( "Hitler's {wartime} Pope" - according to a
> recent anti-Catholic and anti-German author ! ) who had reigned from 1939
> -to- 1958 and which Papal conclave eventuated in the second " Pope John the
> 23rd " { historic note: 1. the No. " 23 " is the Signature Number of the
> masonic " illuminati " cult - just as the number " 6 " , and its multiples,
> is so obviously symbolic for the Jews ! ; and 2. the name " Pope John XXIII
> had ALREADY been the name of one of the anti-Popes of the fifteenth century -
> as well as one of the previous desputed popes during one of the great schizms
> ! ---- and a # 3 : The Chief , at THAT time ( ie. 1958 ) of the head of an
> illuminati-like cult called " The Priory of Zion " which had supported the
> Communist-Internationalist cause during the Second World War, was, "
> coincidently " , entitled Jean XXIII - " Jean " being , of course , the
> French for " John " ! Furthermore , it is a provable FACT that the very ,
> very Liberal/Leftist , pro-Modernist, and extremely Jew-o-philic Cardinal
> Roncalli ( who became " Pope John XXIII " ,or , rather , who became the THIRD
> person by that title in Church history counting both schizmatic and disputed
> Popes as well as that aforementioned anti-Pope of the fifteenth century ! )
> had himself been a member of this French-based masonic secret society before
> World War II - the SAME secret society that had had both Leon Trotsky and
> Vladimir Lenin among its most distinguished alumni back around the
> turn-of-the-century ! Since this development - ie. the replacing of the
> Conservative and Right Wing Cardinal Siri by the extremely Leftist and
> Modernist Cardinal Roncalli ( Pope John XXIII ) at the insistence of World
> Jewery in that 1958 Papal Conclave - let directly to the origins of that "
> Vatican II " council which changed , not only the Roman Catholic Church but
> all of Western Civilization , so ultra-profoundly and dramatically - it
> therefore behoves and it is therefore most important , for both Catholics and
> non-Catholics alike , to study and to learn in all detail exactly what
> happened at that ultra-historic Papal Conclave of the year 1958 ! What most
> people do not realize is that what happened behind-closed-doors in Rome on
> that occassion was at least as historic and as earth-shaking as that " Peace
> " Treaty of Versailles or the making-of-the-atomic bomb at Los Alamos ever
> was upon the history and the development of society in this Twentieth Century
> ! In a nutshell what happened is this : The arch-conservative Cardinal Siri
> of Genoa, Italy was elected Pope on the very first ballot - almost
> unanimously ! Two crypto-JEWS who were Cardinals within the Roman Catholic
> Church ( Does that surprise you ? ---- It shouldn't : nevertheless I will
> repeat it for emphasis - Two JEWS who had infiltrated into the RC Church in
> order to destroy Christendom from within - as per the directive of the High '
> Exhilarch' of Babylon to the Sephardic Jews of Spain in the fifteenth century
> ! - and who had infiltrated themselves even into the position of Cardinal ! ,
> a " Prince " of the Church ! -immediately broke the secrecy of the Conclave
> and stalled for time as they informed the Grand Sanhedrin of the Kehilla of
> this - for them , extrememly un-favorable - development. The Leaders of
> World Jewery then came back with this demand : " Get rid of that ' damn nazi
> ', Siri immediately .... or else ! " ! The " ...or else " was specified
> as being 1. the destruction of the Vatican bank in Rome economically and 2. a
> massive anti-Christian crack-down , a " pogrom " against all Christians ! ,
> within all of the Eastern ie Communist-run states of Europe from the Soviet
> Union to East Germany and the Balkans that would be more bloody than anything
> that any previous Stalinist could ever even dream about ! THAT was the
> ultimatum: And the Jews had absolutely no shame in making it known that THEY
> held that kind of power in all of the ' Communist ' countries of Europe !
> So.... the erstwhile 'Princes of the Church' then informed the general public
> that the White Smoke that had come out of the chimney that time "...was a
> mistake " , Cardinal Siri was ousted , and the Jews' political pawn, the
> Modernist-Leftist Cardinal Roncalli was subsequently elected Pope in a very
> close election. THAT is the story in a small nutshell. I would like to go
> into much greater detail in the future - suffice it to say that it is no
> coincidence that the very first thing that the new " Pope John XXIII "did
> when he ascended up to the Throne of Saint Peter was to author an Encyclical
> stating - in abject contradiction to what is explicitly and un-ambiguously
> stated in the Bible itself - that the Jews were no longer responsible for, or
> the least bit guilty of, the Crucifixtion of the Son of God, the Messiah,
> Jesus Christ. THAT declaration circa 1960 was the beginning of the process
> that culminated recently - circa 1992 - in The Church declaring - in abject
> contradiction to their own 2,000 year old Theology - that Conversion to the
> Catholic Faith was not necessary for the spiritual salvation of the Jews ,
> and that it was NOT necessary for the Jews to recognize Jesus as THE Messiah
> of Israel ! This declaration was an out and out Luciferian slap in the very
> Face of God Himself ! It was certainly the abject contradiction of the
> Church's own traditional theology ! The teaching that " Jews are no longer
> the subjects of conversion " is tantamount to denying that Jesus of Nazareth
> was historically the promised and ordained Messiah of Israel as predicted in
> the Prophets of the Old Testament - and as EXPLICITLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY
> stated by Jesus Himself - let alone His disciples - in the New Testament !
> Naturally the Vatican had even more recently declared that not only " ALL
> antisemitism " ( specifically " for whatever reason " - { what about a good
> one ? ! } - and " from whatever source " { read: many previous Popes and
> Saints and Doctors of the Church - let alone the Father Charles Coughlins of
> this world ! } but also " all Nationalism and nationalistic feelings " [sic]
> were the very worst of all mortal sins !
> And the newly-Jew-d-i-tized Vatican Leaders went on to declare - in direct
> and abject contradiction of all known and verified historical facts - that "
> The Church " ..as they put it " ....had ALWAYS [sic ! ] supported 'democracy'
> [sic] and had always condemned all antisemitism." [sic] THAT is what they
> actually said ! ( They really might as well as have proclaimed that the
> earth is flat , that the oceans are dry and that deserts are wet ! --- and
> that pi is a rational number with a finite number of decimal places ...to
> boot ! )! But this process had really begun with Pope John XXIII's
> declaration that the Jews were, as of the year 1961 or so, no longer guilty
> of the Blood of Jesus Christ whom they had crucified. Traditionally,of
> course, all Christian theology was dependent upon the idea that the Jews ,
> who had rejected their own Saviour and Messiah , were all guilty of the crime
> of Diecide. This is EXPLICITLY stated in the New Testament itself - and just
> as explicitly denied in Pope John XXIII's very first official Encyclical.
> But I can't get into all of the details here - about that 1958 Conclave , or
> about Cardinal Roncalli's membership in the illuminati freemasons. However I
> do want to point this out - Not just in regard to the change in the rites of
> the Mass celebration - as well as the change in the Habits and attire of the
> nuns ,etc. - but also along ALL lines , cultural, artistic, social and
> behavioral - it was that " Second Vatican Council " initiated by that Pope
> John XXIII that really - -
> PROFOUNDLY CHANGED THE WHOLE AND ENTIRE SYSTEM OF VALUES ,
> BOTH MORAL AND AESTETIC , AS WELL AS BEGAN THE PROCESS OF CHANGING
> THE VERY TEACHINGS AND CORE THEOLOGY OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
> ITSELF - A CHANGE FROM THE MYSTICAL AND THE SPIRITUAL AND
> TRADITIONAL (IE FROM THE CONSERVATIVE ) INTO THE SECULAR THE "
> POLITICALLY CORRECT " AND THE MODERNIST ( IE INTO THE LIBERAL / LEFTIST )
> - a Change which affected ALL of the whole world's civilization - and by no
> means just Roman Catholics ! It was between the years 1961 and 1964 that
> the Council worked all of these profound changes - those very same years that
> saw : 1. The birth of ' Rock ' music ; 2. the introduction of " the pill " ;
> 3. the un-doing of immigration laws in Western Europe , America, Canada and
> Australia (ie all of the traditionally White countries of the world )
> SIMULTANEOUSLY ! , 4. the popularization of " unisex " fashions ; 5. racial
> de-segration , and 6. the popularization of ' recreational drugs ' . The
> proximate seeds of all of this " Modernism " were sown during those years of
> Vatican II - ie the early 1960's - and then they flowered and were ripened in
> the " Sexual Revolution " , the Drug Craze ,etc of the Late 1960's and the
> early Seventies. These are historic facts. I very much doubt that the
> timing was really entirely ' coincidental ' ! It was the " Liberalization "
> of the Catholic Church - the Principle religious institution of the West ,
> and really, historically, of ALL of what had been called " Western
> Civilization " at this time ( 1960 - ' 64 ) - that resulted in all of the
> subsequent social decadance and degeneration and the breakdown of traditional
> moral values which just about everyone has noticed during the past twenty to
> thirty years or so. FIRST came the mental-plane / ideological Big Change ,
> THEN came the actual physical effects approximately a decade later. I could
> cite loads of official statistics - demographic ( like the mega-expotential
> decrease in the birthrate in White , European countries since the early
> sixties ) or cultural ( like the enormous increase in the divorce rate and in
> the illegitimacy rate,etc. ) - but do I really have to,I ask you ?
>
> Please do a Searh Engine on the subject of : " The Siri Thesis " .
>
> More later .... All for now.
> =============================================================
> =============================================================
> In a message dated 9/9/00 8:16:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> poli...@catskill.net writes:
>
> << Subj: Re: The essential differences between the Latin and modern Mass,
> astonishing!
> Date: 9/9/00 8:16:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From: poli...@catskill.net (polin)
> To: BHIM...@aol.com