famous Poles, for baba
RPP
Ukraine is marvelled at for its great contributions to history and
world culture???
1 Jan Dlugosz: Historian, diplomat of King Casimir Jagiellonczyk,
secretary of Bishop Z. Olesnicki, canon of Cracow. Studied at the
University of Cracow, made three journeys to Italy. From 1467 teacher
of the King's sons, named Archbishop of Lwow in 1478. His monumental
twelve-volume Historia Polonica or the Chronicle of the Famous Kingdom
of Poland written in Latin, took a quarter of a century to prepare.
Author of many historical works of great value
2. Mikolaj Kopernik (Copernicus): Studied at the universities of
Cracow, Bologna, Padua and Ferrara. Great Polish scientist,
mathematician, economist, physician, astronomer Considered universally
the father of modern astronomy. His revolutionary heliocentric theory:
the earth rotates daily on its axis and planets revolve in orbit
around the sun. After years of study, delayed by the religious and
political climate, Copernicus published his great work, De
Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium in the year of his death, thus laying
the foundation for modern developments in astronomy.
3. Andreas Fricius Modrevius (Modrzewski): Studied at the University
of Cracow and of Wittenberg, tried to mediate between Protestants and
Catholics. Political writer major political theorist and philosopher
of the Polish Renaissance. In the lengthy socio-political treatise
Commentariorum de Republica Emendanda - (On the Reform of the
Republic), 1551, he gave an incisive analysis of the state as a whole
and presented an all-inclusive program of change Pioneer of the modern
European science of state and law ("Laws should be the same for all
estates.")
4. Mikolaj Rej: Poet and prose writer of the Polish Renaissance,
recognized as the Father of Polish Literature. The first Polish writer
to forsake Latin in favor of his native tongue, he was a self-educated
man of great vitality. As a Protestant he took an active part in the
Reformation movement. Was a member of parliament. His satires
criticized the faults of the society in a picturesque and terse
language.
5. Jan Kochanowski: The greatest pre-Romantic writer in all Slavdom,
he was the father of Polish poetry. A humanist educated in Italy and
Poland. From 1564 till 1570, the king's secretary. He was a vital,
many-sided and prolific writer: his surviving lyrical poems and
satires include 16,700 verses in Polish and 7000 in Latin. Among his
works are his Laments, translations of the Psalms into Polish and The
Dismissal of the Greek Envoys, the first Polish drama.
6. Jan Heweliusz: Polish astronomer, member of the Royal Academy, and
councilor. Studied law at the University of Leiden. In 1641, he built
a well- equipped observatory and constructed its instruments, then
charted the lunar surface in Selenographia (1647), catalogued in 1564
stars, observed sunspots, discovered four comets and studied the
phases of Saturn. A crater on the moon was named in his honor His
writings are Prodcomus Cometicus (1665), Cometographia (1668), Annus
Climactericus (1685).
7. Tadeusz Kosciuszko: One of Poland's greatest heroes and patriots,
he fought for freedom with the American Revolutionary Army. Kosciuszko
distinguished himself by building and fortifying West Point, and
became engineer of the Southern Army. In 1783, the United States
Congress offered him citizenship, land, a pension and the rank of
Brigadier General. He returned to Poland where he led the Insurrection
of1794. His indomitable devotion to the cause of freedom made him a
symbol of the pursuit of freedom everywhere.
8. Kazimierz Pulaski: He fought courageously but unsuccessfully to
save Poland from partition. In 1777, he came to America to fight in
the war for independence and, as a cavalry general, won distinction in
numerous campaigns. Mortally wounded in the Battle of Savannah, he
left behind him a cavalry unit which became the nucleus for future
squadrons and earned him the title of "Father of the American
Cavalry." In recognition of his services numerous towns, schools,
highways, bridges, etc. were named after him in U.S.A.
9. Jozef Poniatowski: Nephew of King Stanislaw Poniatowski, minister
of war and leader of the Polish army, participated in the war of 1792
and in the insurrection of 1794. He aided Kosciuszko and formed a
Polish Army Corps. As a commander in Napoleon's army during the battle
of Leipzig, he was given the rank of Marshal of France. Died in battle
10. Adam Mickiewicz: Acknowledged as Poland's greatest poet. Whatever
his chosen form - ballad, poetic tale, romantic drama, or epic - the
result was artistically brilliant and profound in meaning. The leader
of Polish Romanticism, he created such masterpieces as The
Forefathers' Eve, Grazyna, Konrad Wallenrod, and the great Pan
Tadeusz. Succeeding generations of Polish poets were to feel the force
of his genius. Was an exile in Russia between 1824 and 1829 for his
political activities. Spent the rest of his life in Western Europe.
11. Juliusz Slowacki: Second only to Mickiewicz this Romantic poet
and playwright came to be appreciated after his death for his skill
with language and his lyric philosophic approach to reality. His work
fused the Romanticism of Northern Europe with the classic tradition of
the South. His major works include Maria Stuart, Kordian, Anhelli,
Balladyna, Lilia Weneda, The King Spirit. In 1831, Slowacki emigrated
as political refugee to Western Europe.
12. Zygmunt Krasinski: Traditionally ranked with Mickiewicz and
Slowacki as one of Poland's great roman- tic poets, dramatists and
writers. He is more socio- politically conservative than the other
two. Krasinski is best known for his philosophical messianic The Dawn
and his dram as: Undivine Comedy, portrays the tragedy of old-world
aristocracy defeated by the new democracy, Irydion, (in the con text
of Christian ethic), deals with the problem of the struggle of a
subjugated nation against the oppressor.
13. Stanislaw Moniuszko: The year 1858 marks the birth of Poland's
national opera - the Warsaw premiere of Moniuszko's master-work Halka.
His creative adaptation of folk melodies, heightened by his great
talent, lifted Polish morale during the period of partition. Halka was
acclaimed as a success in leading European opera houses and in 1905,
in the U.S. His other works include: The Haunted Castle, The Countess,
and The Raftsman
14. Cyprian Norwid: One of Poland's most original minds of the 19th
century: poet, dramatist, sculptor, painter, and engraver. Ignored by
critics and publishers. His works were rediscovered in this century
and have influenced Polish writers. His style, precursory of 20th
century poetry, is characterized by great beauty and lucidity. The
content is philosophical and ironic. His collections of poems are:
Vademecum, Quidam, dramas: The Actor The Ring of a Great Lady,
philosophical essays: Black Flowers, White Flowers
15. Jan Matejko: His love for Poland's history and tradition, and his
extraordinary capacity for work, gave Europe many vast narrative
paintings. The Prussian Homage, The Battle of Grunwald, and The Union
of Lublin - kept alive the memory of his nation's greatness and gave
Poland new insights into her past as well as a sense of the
individuality of her culture.
16. Henryk Sienkiewicz: In 1905, four years after the first Nobel
Prize, he was the first Polish author to receive the award for
literature. He wrote about the most heroic and tragic episodes of
Polish history. His best known work is Quo Vadis? (1896), an analogy
of his compatriots and Russia to the early Christians and Imperial
Rome but his greatest work is the trilogy With Fire and Sword, The
Deluge and Pan Wolodyjowski (1883-1888). In his day, his country had
ceased to exist politically. Through his historical writings he was,
as he said, the Ambassador of Poland to the world at large.
17. Boleslaw Prus: A major representative of 19th century realism in
Polish literature. His thorough knowledge of contemporary society, his
inventiveness in composition and style, and his specific sense of
humor brought about the modernization of the Polish novel. His major
works include Chronicles, The Outpost, The Doll, The Emancipated Women
and The Pharaoh.
18. Jozef Konrad Korzeniowski a.k.a. Joseph Conrad. Greatest novelist
in the English language. Nuff said.
19. Ignacy Paderewski: The world first knew and honored him as a
composer and virtuoso pianist. With the advent of World War I, he
turned to new careers: orator, diplomat, statesman, constantly working
for Polish independence. After helping Poland's rebirth through the
Treaty of Versailles he returned to Warsaw to form a coalition
government. After 1939 he once again raised his voice - first from
France, then from the U.S. - in a call for Poland's liberty.
20. Wladyslaw Reymont: Author of novels in which epic realism is
combined with naturalism. He excelled in depicting the provincial
atmosphere with its different social groups - as well as the social
panorama of an industrial city. In 1924, he received the Nobel Prize
for literature for his four-volume novel, The Peasants (1904- 1910).
Never before had an author dealt with the daily life of the farmers
with such perception.
21. Maria Sklodowska-Curie: one of the greatest phsysicist, received 2
nobel prizes, and was one od the greatest pioneers in the area of
nuclear physics.
22. Stanislaw Wyspianski: An extraordinarily multi-faceted talent -
playwright, poet, painter, sculptor, architect, and designer
Wyspianski displayed genius in whatever he did but his greatest
contribution was in writing and producing extremely original plays
dealing with the problem of Poland's destiny.
23. Wladyslaw Sikorski: Politician, general, co-founder of the Polish
army during World War I. Elected premier of Poland in 1922; following
Pilsudski's coup d'etat, he settled in Paris where he wrote military
history. During World War II, he fought in France. In 1940, became
commander-in-chief of the Polish Military Forces and premier of the
Polish government-in-exile in London. Most prominent figure of Polish
political life during World War II. He was killed in an airplane crash
at Gibraltar.
24. Karol Szymanowski: One of Poland's outstanding composers. He
evolved from Neoromanticism, through Impressionism and Expressionism
to a style based upon the elements of Polish folklore. Worked on many
forms: opera - Hagith King Roger; ballet - Harnasie; oratorio - Stabat
Mater; symphonies; piano and violin concertos, chamber music choral
works and songs.
25.Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz: Writer painter philosopher
theoretician of art, creator of the theory of "pure form" in art,
theater and poetry. Chief representative of "catastrophism" and of a
unique, innate expressionism. Author of grotesque parodic novels: A
Farewell to Autumn, Insatiability, dramas: The Madman and the Nun, The
Water Hen, The Shoemakers, all of them introducing the future
avant-garde theatre. His paintings are symbolistic.
26. Witold Lutoslawski: Leading contemporary composer noted for his
pioneering work using the modern atonal twelve note scale. Recipient
of numerous international awards and doctorates honoris causa
including several from American universities, Lutoslawski's chief
compositions are: "Funeral Music For String Orchestra," "Venetian
Games," "Three Poems by Hen ri Michaux," several symphonies and
quartet works. He is acclaimed throughout the world as an exponent of
new trends in music.
27. Karol Wojtyla: The Pope. Nuff said.
28. Lech Walesa: One of the reasons Ukraine is now a sovereign state.
MC
even reply to your msg .. why? He won't be able to think of a 1/2 decent
argument for any of those 26 named famous polish people ..
Why bother with the fool? He is just an upstart twit, although granted
he has fierce nationalist pride .. it doesnt mean that he can go around
talking bullshit in the newsgroup.
Taking it from both sides really .. in the soccer groups, from those
American/English yobbos .. in the soc.history groups from those Western
fools who don't have a clue wtf they're talking about (all bow down to
Alex Milman .. ) .. and here with that twit ..
<sigh>
MC
bab...@my-deja.com
MC <mb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Lots of good info .. but why waste your time with baba? I doubt he'll
> even reply to your msg .. why? He won't be able to think of a 1/2
> decent argument for any of those 26 named famous polish people ..
Why would I? I never denied that Poland has famous people.
Russia has even more famous people, I hope you don't think that that
makes it a very highly cultured place also.
> Why bother with the fool? He is just an upstart twit, although granted
> he has fierce nationalist pride .. it doesnt mean that he can go
> around
> talking bullshit in the newsgroup.
Please state which of the following were bullshit (the most recent
stuff)...:
Poland tried to wipe out Ukrainian culture in Galicia in 1920's
and 1930's (I'll repost this if you have "forgotten"). Show how it's
wrong please.
Poland invaded ZUNR and its occupation was attained through outright
lies to the West. Again, please show something to the contrary.
Lech sure doesn't. He states the ridiculous, and moves on after it is
shown for its idiocy, to another ridiculous point.
You were silent when Lech claimed that Poles actually "built" Ukrainian
schools? Is lying ok with you if a Pole commits it?
If some Poles choose to belive fairy tales such as Conrad being "the
greatest English -writing novelist" or of Poland building Ukraine's
schools, that's up to them. But if they these lies find their way onto
soc.culture.ukrainian, they will be dealt with...repeatedly.
> Taking it from both sides really .. in the soccer groups, from those
> American/English yobbos .. in the soc.history groups from those
> Western
> fools who don't have a clue wtf they're talking about (all bow down to
> Alex Milman .. ) .. and here with that twit ..
You seem to like that word. Reminds me of Monty Python for some
reason...
Seriously, MC, you would not hear from this "twit" on your newsgroup
if the idiot Lech had not opened his lying and ignorant mouth all over
soc.culture.ukrainian in the first place.
I mean, he went out of his way to brag about Poles "kicking Ukrainian
ass" on the Ukrainian newsgroups.
How would you feel, MC, if some German @sshole decided to go all over
soc.culture.polish and brag about kicking Polish ass in '39?
Even better, if he resorted to lies and distortians to magnify this?
Perhaps he foolishly thought that his lies and idiocy would be
tolerated.
Please take the time to realize the situation and its background before
you go off talking about "twits".
<sighing right back at you>
Babai
> <sigh>
> MC
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> Baba,
Why the feminization again Lech? Didn't get enough "assing"
from S Bobrow last night?
> you say Poland only had Chopin who is world famous,
A complete and total lie. Prove it. Repost where I said that, that
Poland had only Chopin. Ridiculous, I'm not another Lecjh for goodness
sake.
The examples you gave below are actually intersting, for the first time
(among your posts). Perhaps you should go without "assing"
from S Bobrow more often.
You even provided some comic relief with the statement of Conrad being
the greatest novelist of the English language.
The question, however, concerned world culture. Many of the examples
you mention, though showing great thinkers, are limited to the Polish
experience. Ukraine has similar examples.
I will repeat your feat. Seen in the context of Ukraine's total
occupation and the suipression of its culture (much greater than what
the Poles experienced), it is more modest but no less impressive:
1. Gogol, one of the founders of Russian literature. From a kozak
family and wrote frequently of Ukrainian themes (i.e. Taras Bulba)
More acclaimed than any Polish novelist (with the exception of
"Lech-land").
2. Shevchenko (should be #1 of course). Grew up a serf and as a boy
was beaten by his master for educating himself. Viewed in Ukraine as a
national prophet whose cultural, political influence was remarkable. He
condemned Polish oppression but wished good relations with Poles (the
poem "Poliakam"),among other things. His works were translated into
Polish, Czech, Russian, and German in his lifetime, most of which was
spent in Czarist exile. He was forbidden to write and was forced to do
so clandestinely. Parts of the Kobzar have now been translated into 100
languages, and there are archives of his work in St. Petersburg,
Moscow, Cracow, Geneva and elsewhere. The French literary scholar E.A.
Durand and C. Dickens, Jr. among many others wrote about him.
He was also a brilliant artist, one of the first to work with
graphite. 835 of his works exist and another 270 are lost.
Shevchenko was listed by the UN as one of the world's 100 most
significant writers. In 1964 a monument was unveiled in Washington D.C.
in honor of Shevchenko, with former president D. Eisenhauer being the
keynote speaker.
No, Lech, he did not get a Nobel Prize.
3. The choral composer Leontovych, who composed over 150 choral works
plus liturgies. His Shchedryk, knwon as "Carol of the Bells"
4. The Philosopher Hryhoriy Skovoroda, 1722-1794, wandered through the
countryside of eastern Ukraine, translated Cicero, Plutarch, Horace and
Ovid. His philosphy has been described as a form of Christian
mysticism, a version of Christian Platonism, strict rationalism, and/or
a moral philosphy according to various scholars. Skovoroda beleived
that the purpose of philosophy was to attain happiness, attainable by an
inner state of peace, joy and confidence.
5. The composer Vedel, chief example of Cossack baroque style of
classical music. Chiefly religious music: over 80 works have been
identified, including sacred concertos, one liturgy, one all-night
vigil, and works such as the concerto "On the Rivers of Babylon" and the
trio "Open the Gates of Repentance".
6. Archipenko, one of the best known and earliest Cubist sculptors.
7. Ivan Puluy (Johann Puluj), discoverer of the X-Ray (his former
professor Roengten got the credit, unfortunately). There's a small
section of the technical museum in Vienna devoted to him.
8. Petro Kapytsia, nuclear physicist and Nobel lauriate.
Conducted his research in Cambridge.
etc. etc. (Kotsiubinsky, who was admired by Lermontov, Franko, etc. etc.
sorry my time is limited).
Of course, Ukrainian culture influenced others as well. Tchaikovsky was
partially of Ukrainian descent, and some of his works were based on
Ukrainian folk songs. Interestingly, Mozart's son's works also had
much Ukrainian influence (he travelled to Galicia).
You get the idea. Lech would not benefit much from this, as he is too
stupid, but any other interested Poles or Ukrainians might.
Given the difficult and hard circumstances of Ukraine and of many of
these people (particularly Shevchenko - what peasant of *any*
nationality could have risen so far!!!) Ukraine certainly has nothing to
be ashamed of in terms of cultural achievement.
> while
> Ukraine is marvelled at for its great contributions to history and
> world culture???
See above, Lech. Your snide mocking is evidence only of your ignorance.
I wonder if Poland, under similar circumstances, would have accomplished
the same. If any Pole who suffered as did Shevchenko, who as a child
was beated for trying to educate himself, would have been able to
accomplish what Shevchenko did.
There is indeed something in the Ukrainian spirit...
Babai
MC
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Heh, I've read enough accounts of Germans beating the crap out of the
Poles in '39 .. 3/4's of it is crap and never mentions the severe
casualty rates of the Germans and the fact that the Poles did wonders
with the equipment they had, aswell as their mobilization numbers..
I really don't care either way, its just that the Poles (along with the
Ukranians etc..) have had their history trampled upon (mostly during the
18th century .. the partitions..), their history changed, records
destroyed .. by who? The Russians .. the ruskies are still holding
original Polish documents/books, etc in their libraries and have not
handed them back yet .. it makes me mad when ppl talk about what
happened in the past (especially stupid westerners, they're completley
clueless, not all but 90% ..) in Poland/Ukraine after reading crappy 2nd
rate American drivel ..
The End ..
Michael.
RPP
>In article <3764BB...@hotmail.com>,
> MC <mb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lots of good info .. but why waste your time with baba? I doubt he'll
>> even reply to your msg .. why? He won't be able to think of a 1/2
>> decent argument for any of those 26 named famous polish people ..
>
>Why would I? I never denied that Poland has famous people.
You said in a sarcastic manner that "Poles OOH have Chopin", implying
he is our only claim to fame.
>
>If some Poles choose to belive fairy tales such as Conrad being "the
>greatest English -writing novelist" or of Poland building Ukraine's
>schools, that's up to them. But if they these lies find their way onto
>soc.culture.ukrainian, they will be dealt with...repeatedly.
>
Conrad is the father of the English novel, and is respected as one of
RPP
>In article <3764808a...@news.kwom.com>,
> le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
>
>
>> Baba,
>
>Why the feminization again Lech? Didn't get enough "assing"
>from S Bobrow last night?
>
>> you say Poland only had Chopin who is world famous,
>
>A complete and total lie. Prove it. Repost where I said that, that
>Poland had only Chopin. Ridiculous, I'm not another Lecjh for goodness
>sake.
You named Gogol, and someone else, and spewed how Ukraine has so many
respected people, and then in a sarcastic one liner you said "And
Poles have Chopin".
>
>The examples you gave below are actually intersting, for the first time
>(among your posts). Perhaps you should go without "assing"
>from S Bobrow more often.
>
>You even provided some comic relief with the statement of Conrad being
>the greatest novelist of the English language.
>
One of the greatest, and the father of the English novel.
>The question, however, concerned world culture. Many of the examples
>you mention, though showing great thinkers, are limited to the Polish
>experience. Ukraine has similar examples.
>
REally? Who???? Kosciuszko? Pulaski? Chopin? Lem? Marie
Sklodowska-Curie? Copernicus? Walesa? Pope John Paul II? They are
really only Polish. What about Conrad???
>I will repeat your feat. Seen in the context of Ukraine's total
>occupation and the suipression of its culture (much greater than what
>the Poles experienced), it is more modest but no less impressive:
>
>1. Gogol, one of the founders of Russian literature. From a kozak
>family and wrote frequently of Ukrainian themes (i.e. Taras Bulba)
>More acclaimed than any Polish novelist (with the exception of
>"Lech-land").
More acclaimed than the Nobel prize laureates Poland has had?? You
think Gogol is more acclaimed than Sienkiewicz? Lem? You are joking
me. BTW, Gogol, as was pointed out by another poster, was a pro
tsarist figure, who should be hated by you.
> Shevchenko
> No, Lech, he did not get a Nobel Prize.
Nor was he of the caliber of the greatest poet of eastern Europe,
Mickiewicz. Sorry to burst your bubble.
>
>3. The choral composer Leontovych, who composed over 150 choral works
>plus liturgies. His Shchedryk, knwon as "Carol of the Bells"
Chopin.
>> while
>> Ukraine is marvelled at for its great contributions to history and
>> world culture???
>
>See above, Lech. Your snide mocking is evidence only of your ignorance.
>
>I wonder if Poland, under similar circumstances, would have accomplished
>the same. If any Pole who suffered as did Shevchenko, who as a child
>was beated for trying to educate himself, would have been able to
>accomplish what Shevchenko did.
Actually, many of the great artists Poland produced were in the time
of the Partitions.
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3764808a...@news.kwom.com>,
> le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
>
> > Baba,
>
> Why the feminization again Lech? Didn't get enough "assing"
> from S Bobrow last night?
>
> > you say Poland only had Chopin who is world famous,
>
> A complete and total lie. Prove it. Repost where I said that, that
> Poland had only Chopin. Ridiculous, I'm not another Lecjh for
goodness
> sake.
> The examples you gave below are actually intersting, for the first
time
> (among your posts). Perhaps you should go without "assing"
> from S Bobrow more often.
>
> You even provided some comic relief with the statement of Conrad being
> the greatest novelist of the English language.
>
> The question, however, concerned world culture. Many of the examples
> you mention, though showing great thinkers, are limited to the Polish
> experience. Ukraine has similar examples.
>
> I will repeat your feat. Seen in the context of Ukraine's total
> occupation and the suipression of its culture (much greater than what
> the Poles experienced), it is more modest but no less impressive:
>
> 1. Gogol, one of the founders of Russian literature. From a kozak
> family and wrote frequently of Ukrainian themes (i.e. Taras Bulba)
> More acclaimed than any Polish novelist (with the exception of
> "Lech-land").
Wrote also of Russian themes.He wrote in Russian.
It's said that Dostoyewski was also of polish descent (according to a
Pole who shared a prison with him) but I would not call him even a half-
Pole.
> Interestingly, Mozart's son's works also had
> much Ukrainian influence (he travelled to Galicia).
>
> You get the idea. Lech would not benefit much from this, as he is too
> stupid, but any other interested Poles or Ukrainians might.
>
> Given the difficult and hard circumstances of Ukraine and of many of
> these people (particularly Shevchenko - what peasant of *any*
> nationality could have risen so far!!!) Ukraine certainly has nothing
to
> be ashamed of in terms of cultural achievement.
>
> > while
> > Ukraine is marvelled at for its great contributions to history and
> > world culture???
>
> See above, Lech. Your snide mocking is evidence only of your
ignorance.
>
> I wonder if Poland, under similar circumstances, would have
accomplished
> the same. If any Pole who suffered as did Shevchenko, who as a child
> was beated for trying to educate himself, would have been able to
> accomplish what Shevchenko did.
I don't know how much Ukrainians are similiar to Poles,but I've noticed
a interesting thing in our nation.Throughout the history,our strenght
and determination was often relative to opposing forces.
In times of opression,we were getting stronger,while in seemingly
"easy" times we were getting weaker.It can be best easily seen when it
comes to the times of germanization and russification during the
partitions.There was a Pole who claimed that Poles benefitted from
germanization actions of O.Bismarc,because they resulted in big rise of
determination (especially in education) and patriotism.
> There is indeed something in the Ukrainian spirit...
Something there is for sure,although I don't know if it's so great as
you think.
RPP
>It's said that Dostoyewski was also of polish descent (according to a
>Pole who shared a prison with him) but I would not call him even a half-
>Pole.
Nietzche was of Polish descent but we arent desperate enough to try to
claim him.
mba...@my-deja.com
> >Pole who shared a prison with him) but I would not call him even a
half-
> >Pole.
>
> claim him.
Poland,hate Poles,and as far as I know hated his polish heritage.
Nietche however,in his autobiography from 1883,wrote that in his
opinion,Poles are the most talented and brave from slavic nations,and
Slavs as such are much more talented than Germans. He wrote that
Germans are among higher talented nations only due to element of slavic
blood.He also wrote that as boy he was proud of his polish ancestry.
In "Ecco homo" from 1908,he wrote (poor translation)I'm still so much a
Pole,that I would give all the world's music for Chopin"
So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
RPP
>Nietzche is a different case than Dostoyewski.Dostoyewski hated
>Poland,hate Poles,and as far as I know hated his polish heritage.
>
>Nietche however,in his autobiography from 1883,wrote that in his
>opinion,Poles are the most talented and brave from slavic nations,and
>Slavs as such are much more talented than Germans. He wrote that
>Germans are among higher talented nations only due to element of slavic
>blood.He also wrote that as boy he was proud of his polish ancestry.
>
>In "Ecco homo" from 1908,he wrote (poor translation)I'm still so much a
>Pole,that I would give all the world's music for Chopin"
>
>So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
>
I agree. What I tried to say, and probably didnt say clearly, was that
Polish culture has such a wealth of great people, that we dont need to
claim people like Nietzche, but we certainly could make a case if we
tried. baba OTOH has to go out of his way to claim people of 2nd, 3rd
or 4tg generation Ukrainisn heritage to even try and keep up and match
Polish culture. That was my point.
bab...@my-deja.com
MC <mb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
>
> Heh, I've read enough accounts of Germans beating the crap out of the
> Poles in '39 .. 3/4's of it is crap and never mentions the severe
> casualty rates of the Germans and the fact that the Poles did wonders
> with the equipment they had, aswell as their mobilization numbers..
Very true, 50,000 German casualties. The Germans paid a relatively high
price for the invasion of Poland. They kicked ass but the Poles fought
with courage; they bravely fought the best army in Europe.
Likewise, the cossacks and the ill-trained, almost unequipped peasants
fought quite bravely and quite well against the best army of 17th
century Europe, that of Poland, and scored some impressive victories.
They were never even crushed, as Poland's negotiation (rather than
arrest/execution as was seen in previous rebellions such as Nalivayko's
(sic)) with Khmelnitsky shows.
I hope you realize that some pro-Russian (because let's face it, the
biggest benefactor of Polish-Ukrainian animosity is Russia; Germans also
benefitted but that kind of Germany died at the same time that
imperialistic Poland died) provacateurs bragging about Polish hussars
cutting down Ukrainian peasants is akin to Germans bragging about their
2,600 tanks wasting Poland's army, which was equipped by only 150 tanks.
That discussions of cossack/Ukrainian barbarity is quite similar to
Hitler's words about Poland as a nation where "sadistic beasts give
vent to their perverse instincts".
Babai
>
> I really don't care either way, its just that the Poles (along with
> the Ukranians etc..) have had their history trampled upon (mostly
> during the 18th century .. the partitions..), their history changed,
> records destroyed .. by who? The Russians .. the ruskies are still
> holding original Polish documents/books, etc in their libraries and
> have not handed them back yet .. it makes me mad when ppl talk about
> what happened in the past (especially stupid westerners, they're
> completley clueless, not all but 90% ..) in Poland/Ukraine after
> reading crappy 2nd rate American drivel ..
> The End ..
> Michael.
>
bab...@my-deja.com
mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
...cut...
> Nietzche is a different case than Dostoyewski.Dostoyewski hated
> Poland,hate Poles,and as far as I know hated his polish heritage.
That's a bit extreme. He wrote very unflattering descriptions of
Polish aristocrats, which, sorry, was rather accurate. His hilarious
description of the Polish "pany", foppish and polite in words while
slyly stealing money from the pockets of the drunk Karamazov in the
book of the similar name reminds me so much of the polite, smooth
Piderewski charming Westerners while lying that ZUNR was composed of
Bolsheviks and that therefore Galicia should belong to Poland.
At any rate, it was no more unflattering than was Sienkewicz's
description of Ukrainians.
Dosteyevsky was regarded as one of the world's greatest writers and
thinkers, and among other things was *highly* praised by Nietsche
(who wrote something to the effect of Dostoyevsky being the only
author worth reading), Freud, and countless other great thinkers.
> Nietche however,in his autobiography from 1883,wrote that in his
> opinion,Poles are the most talented and brave from slavic nations,and
> Slavs as such are much more talented than Germans. He wrote that
> Germans are among higher talented nations only due to element of
> slavic blood.He also wrote that as boy he was proud of his polish
> ancestry.
>
> In "Ecco homo" from 1908,he wrote (poor translation)I'm still so much
> a Pole,that I would give all the world's music for Chopin"
Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the info. Nietzsche was not the
only such German thinker. Joseph Gottfried Herder, an influential
crrator of the modern idea of nationalism, wrote "Ukraine will one day
become a new Greece; the beautiful climate of this country, the gay
disposition of the people, their musical inclination, and the fertile
soil will all awaken...there will rise a great and cultured nation whose
boundaries will extend to the Black Sea and thence into the far-flung
world".
Oswald Spengler predicted that one day Faustian (Western European)
civilization would one day, following a period of decay and decadence
(the current age), be conquered and pushed aside by the culture of the
Slavs (unfortunately he was too enamored of Danilevsky's idea and
thought that Russia would lead the way).
> So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
Well...it would be akin to Ukrainians claiming Tchaikovsky or
Chekhov (both of Ukrainian descent, quite enamored of Ukrainian culture,
and incorporating some Ukrainian themes into their works, yet very
Russian). 30 of Tchaikovsky's works for example incorporated Ukrainian
folk melodies or used Ukrainian themes, including the opera Mazepa,
symphonies no.2, no. 4, and n0. 7, and the opening of the famousd 1812
overture.
Gogol is a completely different story, being a Ukrainian from Ukraine
who, although writing in Russian, wrote of Ukrainian themes
(Taras Bulba among many others) and whose works had a very Ukrainian
quality.
Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
native language and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes.
In fact, the Stanford professor Alfred Guerard claimed that Joseph
Conrad was in most respects "more British than the British".
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
...cut...
> >
>
> I agree. What I tried to say, and probably didnt say clearly, was that
> Polish culture has such a wealth of great people, that we dont need to
> claim people like Nietzche, but we certainly could make a case if we
> tried. baba OTOH has to go out of his way to claim people of 2nd, 3rd
> or 4tg generation Ukrainisn heritage
When have I done this? Please repost when I stated this....
> to even try and keep up and match
> Polish culture. That was my point.
Ah, more of your talk on Ukrainian culture.
Hitler on Poland and its culture:
"a so-called state lacking every national historical, cultural
and moral foundation"
Sounds an awful lot like your numerous descriptions of Ukraine...
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
provacareur, but I continue to disprove his innacuracies:
In article <37673dfc...@news.kwom.com>,
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> >
> >Why would I? I never denied that Poland has famous people.
>
> You said in a sarcastic manner that "Poles OOH have Chopin", implying
> he is our only claim to fame.
firstly, in the same post I wrote that Ukrainian accomplishments were
more modest than Polish ones. So you lied there.
this is a copy of that portion of the text:
mbacal:
> Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> known in the world?
[ Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language
was banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere
and content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
Dykanky stories.
Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
Polish writer.
Of course there is also Archipenko, one of the world's most important
cubist sculptors (you can look him up in any Encyclopedia if you wish),
etc.
The Poles have Chopin of course.]
What is sarcastic about that?
I wrote that none of the above were greater than Chopin.
If you look for insults, you will find them everywhere.
> >If some Poles choose to belive fairy tales such as Conrad being "the
> >greatest English -writing novelist" or of Poland building Ukraine's
> >schools, that's up to them. But if they these lies find their way
> >onto soc.culture.ukrainian, they will be dealt with...repeatedly.
> >
>
> Conrad is the father of the English novel, and is respected as one
> of the greatest novelist of the English language.
"Father of the English novel". Hmm.....have you heard of Melville,
Hawthorne, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? (I'm assuming by your last phrase
that you mean "English language novel")
Certainly he is one of the greatest, although far behind James Joyce
and many many others (personally I prefer Conrad to Joyce but that
is a very idiosyncratic belief). If authors were ranked like pop music
songs Conrad would perhaps make the top twenty among English language
novelists, but would not crack the top ten. If you take into account
world literature he would be still less significant, although yes he is
still quite important. Comparing him or especially Sienkewicz to Gogol
or Tolstoy is *quite* absurd, however.
Perhaps we should repost this to some kind of literature newsgroup and
see what they say. I dount that they would take a post including the
phrases "Conrad father of the English novel" or "greatest English
language novelist" seriously however.
bab...@my-deja.com
provacareur, but I continue to disprove his innacuracies:
> >If some Poles choose to belive fairy tales such as Conrad being "the
> >greatest English -writing novelist" or of Poland building Ukraine's
> >schools, that's up to them. But if they these lies find their way
> >onto soc.culture.ukrainian, they will be dealt with...repeatedly.
> >
>
> Conrad is the father of the English novel, and is respected as one
> of the greatest novelist of the English language.
Babai
In article <37673ebe...@news.kwom.com>,
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
...cut...
> >
> >> you say Poland only had Chopin who is world famous,
> >
> >A complete and total lie. Prove it. Repost where I said that, that
> >Poland had only Chopin. Ridiculous, I'm not another Lecjh for
goodness
> >sake.
>
> You named Gogol, and someone else, and spewed how Ukraine has so many
> respected people, and then in a sarcastic one liner you said "And
> Poles have Chopin".
this is a copy of that portion of the text:
mbacal:
> Anyway could give me a example of a Ukrainian who would be very well
> known in the world?
[ Well, Gogol (Hohol). He wrote in Russian because his own language
was banned, but the literature is quite Ukrainian in theme, atmosphere
and content. Few works could be more Ukrainian than Taras Bulba or the
Dykanky stories.
Gogol also played a huge role in the genesis of Russian literature,
which is considered by many to be the best in the world (Russia is to
literature as Germany/Austria are to classical music)
And Gogol is far more well known/respected around the world than any
Polish writer.
Of course there is also Archipenko, one of the world's most important
cubist sculptors (you can look him up in any Encyclopedia if you wish),
etc.
The Poles have Chopin of course.]
What is sarcastic about that?
I wrote that none of the above were greater than Chopin, by placing
Chopin in the same group as them (obviously actually he is of higher
stature than Archipenko).
If you look for insults, you will find them everywhere.
> >
> >The examples you gave below are actually intersting, for the first
> >time (among your posts). Perhaps you should go without "assing"
> >from S Bobrow more often.
> >You even provided some comic relief with the statement of Conrad
> >being the greatest novelist of the English language.
> >
> One of the greatest, and the father of the English novel.
Good so you are correcting yourself. But still, I must correct your
innacuracy:
"Father of the English novel". Hmm.....have you heard of Melville,
Hawthorne, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? (I'm assuming by your last phrase
that you mean "English language novel")
Certainly he is one of the greatest, although far behind James Joyce
and many many others (personally I prefer Conrad to Joyce but that
is a very idiosyncratic belief). If authors were ranked like pop music
songs Conrad would perhaps make the top twenty among English language
novelists, but would not crack the top ten. If you take into account
world literature he would be still less significant, although yes he is
still quite important. Comparing him or especially Sienkewicz to Gogol
or Tolstoy is *quite* absurd, however.
Perhaps we should repost this to some kind of literature newsgroup and
see what they say. I dount that they would take a post including the
phrases "Conrad father of the English novel" or "greatest English
language novelist" seriously however.
> >The question, however, concerned world culture. Many of the examples
> >you mention, though showing great thinkers, are limited to the Polish
> >experience. Ukraine has similar examples.
> >
>
> REally? Who???? Kosciuszko? Pulaski? Chopin? Lem? Marie
> Sklodowska-Curie? Copernicus? Walesa? Pope John Paul II? They are
> really only Polish. What about Conrad???
>
> >I will repeat your feat. Seen in the context of Ukraine's total
> >occupation and the suipression of its culture (much greater than what
> >the Poles experienced), it is more modest but no less impressive:
> >
> >1. Gogol, one of the founders of Russian literature. From a kozak
> >family and wrote frequently of Ukrainian themes (i.e. Taras Bulba)
> >More acclaimed than any Polish novelist (with the exception of
> >"Lech-land").
>
> More acclaimed than the Nobel prize laureates Poland has had?? You
> think Gogol is more acclaimed than Sienkiewicz? Lem?
Seriously. Post this onto any literature newgroup and see if they will
laugh out loud to to themselves. To think that Sienkewicz is even
1/100th of Gogol is rather absurd.
> You are joking
> me. BTW, Gogol, as was pointed out by another poster, was a pro
> tsarist figure, who should be hated by you.
His political convictions are irrelevent in this matter: cultural
figures. MBacal asked about Ukrainian cultural figures of world fame
and I provided one. He did not ask about great political idealogues.
> > Shevchenko
> > No, Lech, he did not get a Nobel Prize.
>
> Nor was he of the caliber of the greatest poet of eastern Europe,
> Mickiewicz. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Well, certainly for Poles he is not, but the rest of the world may
think otherwise, given the awards and worldwide praise for Shevchenko's
work. Of course, to a Russian Pushkin is thge best, to a German perhaps
Goethe, to a Pole Mickiewycz, etc. etc.
> >3. The choral composer Leontovych, who composed over 150 choral
> >works plus liturgies. His Shchedryk, knwon as "Carol of the Bells"
>
> Chopin.
A sarcastic one liner? : )))))
> >> while
> >> Ukraine is marvelled at for its great contributions to history and
> >> world culture???
> >
> >See above, Lech. Your snide mocking is evidence only of your
ignorance.
> >
> >I wonder if Poland, under similar circumstances, would have
> >accomplished
> >the same. If any Pole who suffered as did Shevchenko, who as a child
> >was beated for trying to educate himself, would have been able to
> >accomplish what Shevchenko did.
>
> Actually, many of the great artists Poland produced were in the time
> of the Partitions.
True, but Poland's time of Partitions was a picnic compared to what
Ukrainians were facing. And Ukraine's misfortunes lasted far, far
longer.
Babai
Jack R. Badura
Hi Babai,
I enclose some of my notes to indicate the stereotypic and
"false ambitions" of Europeeno's.
That is were the "nned for various proofs and fantasy comes from".
We Europeeno,s are educated and brought up in few basic convictions:
1. Everyone's group is special, their features are
superior to everyone else's. Simply "numero's UNO".
2. European history is a one big conflict and royal intrigue,
warfare fought with your neighbor, which by
definitions make them enemies, tribal
conflicts create "history" there.
3. Very structured and pyramidal societies:
most of the populations are without means
of defence totally disarmed,
they believe that anything west of them is superior
and brown nose it and also believe that anything east them is
inferior
and offend it, kick it and downgrade it.
4. concept of acceptance of differences, of acceptance of
ethnicity, race and different religion, nationality etc. is rather
strange and not understood.
-How nicely we fall into this pattern.
Every culture, group etc has its own hero's.
Some a better, some are worst.
It is important to recognize any "great mind" (rather rare species) of
any nationality.
Take care.
JAck
Yours very truly,
Jack
May I invite you to visit my WEB SITE:
http://www.jrbadura.com
RPP
>> Conrad is the father of the English novel, and is respected as one
>> of the greatest novelist of the English language.
>
>"Father of the English novel". Hmm.....have you heard of Melville,
>Hawthorne, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? (I'm assuming by your last phrase
>that you mean "English language novel")
>
No, I mean Spanish language English novel.
>Certainly he is one of the greatest, although far behind James Joyce
>and many many others (personally I prefer Conrad to Joyce but that
>is a very idiosyncratic belief). If authors were ranked like pop music
>songs Conrad would perhaps make the top twenty among English language
>novelists, but would not crack the top ten. If you take into account
>world literature he would be still less significant, although yes he is
>still quite important. Comparing him or especially Sienkewicz to Gogol
>or Tolstoy is *quite* absurd, however.
Gogol? Tolstoy was a great, but Gogol is a minor figure. Putting him
anywhere near a list of Tolstoy, Conrad, Sienkiewicz is an act of
absurdity only a semi-Uke like you could commit.
>
>Perhaps we should repost this to some kind of literature newsgroup and
>see what they say. I dount that they would take a post including the
>phrases "Conrad father of the English novel" or "greatest English
>language novelist" seriously however.
>
>Babai
You dont think so? I oposted a long article on rec.arts.books on
Conrad, and the responses were quite favopurable. Ofcourse those
people dont have a Polish fear and deep seeded hatred inflicted upon
them by their illiterate peasant parents like you, so they have a
clear understanding of the significance of Conrad to the English
language.
RPP
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
>> claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
>> native language and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes
>
>The second criterion doesn't seem valid: Is Stanislaw Lem a Pole
>or is he an alien?
>
HAHAHA. Brilliant extrapolation of Baba logic.
>user
RPP
>Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
>claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
>native language and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes.
>In fact, the Stanford professor Alfred Guerard claimed that Joseph
>Conrad was in most respects "more British than the British".
>
>
I see. Claiming a Russian of Ukrainian ancestry is ok, but claiming a
Pole born in Poland whose 1st language was Polish, who was educated in
Poland, who only learned English in his adulthood OTOH is somehow
strange? Well, I suppose you see the logic there, afterall you need to
say so since you, like Gogol arent a true Ukrainian, just Ukrainian by
family descent.
As user said, if not incorporating Polish themes makes you not Polish,
is Lem a Pole or an alien?
RPP
>Hitler on Poland and its culture:
>
>"a so-called state lacking every national historical, cultural
>and moral foundation"
>
>Sounds an awful lot like your numerous descriptions of Ukraine...
>
>
>Babai
Quoting Ukraine's WW2 ally again?
mba...@my-deja.com
> >Poland,hate Poles,and as far as I know hated his polish heritage.
> >
> >opinion,Poles are the most talented and brave from slavic nations,and
> >Slavs as such are much more talented than Germans. He wrote that
> >Germans are among higher talented nations only due to element of
slavic
> >blood.He also wrote that as boy he was proud of his polish ancestry.
> >
> >In "Ecco homo" from 1908,he wrote (poor translation)I'm still so
much a
> >Pole,that I would give all the world's music for Chopin"
> >
> >
>
> Polish culture has such a wealth of great people, that we dont need to
> claim people like Nietzche, but we certainly could make a case if we
> tried. baba OTOH has to go out of his way to claim people of 2nd, 3rd
> Polish culture. That was my point.
than Nitsche.
But by the way,what does "OTOH" mean?
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <376987bb...@news.kwom.com>,
> le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> ...cut...
>
> > >
> >
that
> > Polish culture has such a wealth of great people, that we dont need
to
> > claim people like Nietzche, but we certainly could make a case if we
> > tried. baba OTOH has to go out of his way to claim people of 2nd,
3rd
> > or 4tg generation Ukrainisn heritage
>
>
> > Polish culture. That was my point.
>
>
>
> "a so-called state lacking every national historical, cultural
> and moral foundation"
for a comliment.
> Sounds an awful lot like your numerous descriptions of Ukraine...
And that what Ukrainians say about Ukraine sound very similiar (and is
quite similiar) to that what Nazi's maked up about Germany.
> Babai
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <7kap3n$hbi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> ...cut...
>
> > Poland,hate Poles,and as far as I know hated his polish heritage.
>
> Polish aristocrats, which, sorry, was rather accurate. His hilarious
> description of the Polish "pany", foppish and polite in words while
> slyly stealing money from the pockets of the drunk Karamazov in the
> book of the similar name reminds me so much of the polite, smooth
> Piderewski charming Westerners while lying that ZUNR was composed of
> Bolsheviks and that therefore Galicia should belong to Poland.
>
> At any rate, it was no more unflattering than was Sienkewicz's
> description of Ukrainians.
was't very hate filled toward you.Rembember that Sienkiewicz wrote
at the end (poor translation) "Hate grew in hearts and poisoned the
brother blood"
> Dosteyevsky was regarded as one of the world's greatest writers and
> thinkers, and among other things was *highly* praised by Nietsche
> (who wrote something to the effect of Dostoyevsky being the only
> author worth reading), Freud, and countless other great thinkers.
>
> > Nietche however,in his autobiography from 1883,wrote that in his
> > opinion,Poles are the most talented and brave from slavic
nations,and
> > Slavs as such are much more talented than Germans. He wrote that
> > Germans are among higher talented nations only due to element of
> > slavic blood.He also wrote that as boy he was proud of his polish
> > ancestry.
> >
> > In "Ecco homo" from 1908,he wrote (poor translation)I'm still so
much
> > a Pole,that I would give all the world's music for Chopin"
>
> Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the info. Nietzsche was not the
> only such German thinker. Joseph Gottfried Herder, an influential
> crrator of the modern idea of nationalism, wrote "Ukraine will one day
> become a new Greece; the beautiful climate of this country, the gay
> disposition of the people, their musical inclination, and the fertile
> soil will all awaken...there will rise a great and cultured nation
whose
> boundaries will extend to the Black Sea and thence into the far-flung
> world".
Well,I hope your nation will fulfill that vision someday.But
unfortunately,current situation is far from that.
> Oswald Spengler predicted that one day Faustian (Western European)
> civilization would one day, following a period of decay and decadence
> (the current age)
IMO the question is: Did Western civilization reached apogeum of it's
decadence? Or is the apogeum yet to come?
>, be conquered and pushed aside by the culture of the
> Slavs (unfortunately he was too enamored of Danilevsky's idea and
> thought that Russia would lead the way).
Many Westerners were (are?) completely wrong when it came to Russia.
> > So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
>
> Well...it would be akin to Ukrainians claiming Tchaikovsky or
> Chekhov (both of Ukrainian descent, quite enamored of Ukrainian
culture,
> and incorporating some Ukrainian themes into their works, yet very
> Russian). 30 of Tchaikovsky's works for example incorporated
Ukrainian
> folk melodies or used Ukrainian themes, including the opera Mazepa,
> symphonies no.2, no. 4, and n0. 7, and the opening of the famousd 1812
> overture.
>
> Gogol is a completely different story, being a Ukrainian from Ukraine
> who, although writing in Russian, wrote of Ukrainian themes
> (Taras Bulba among many others) and whose works had a very Ukrainian
> quality.
>
> Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
> claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
> native language
Nor did Gogol.In fact,did Gogol know ukrainian language? (well)
> and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes.
Incorporating Polish themes is not a duty.Mickiewicz incorporated Tatar
(Crimean)themes. Gogol incorporated russian themes as well
(Petersburg).
> In fact, the Stanford professor Alfred Guerard claimed that Joseph
> Conrad was in most respects "more British than the British".
The question is,does he knew anything about being "Polish"? Perhaps it
would turn out that Poles in generall are more British than the
British.(I've already heard that Poles are/were generally more Western
than Westerners)
Anyway,from Conrad's works,I know only "Lord Jim".Judging from this
book,Conrad was moralist,believing in strong morality and honor.As far
as I know it makes him more Polish than British.
> Babai
RPP
>> I agree. What I tried to say, and probably didnt say clearly, was that
>> Polish culture has such a wealth of great people, that we dont need to
>> claim people like Nietzche, but we certainly could make a case if we
>> tried. baba OTOH has to go out of his way to claim people of 2nd, 3rd
>> Polish culture. That was my point.
>than Nitsche.
Russians can keep Dostojewski.
>
>But by the way,what does "OTOH" mean?
>
On the other hand.
bab...@my-deja.com
Just making corrections, as usual....
In article <3769d154...@news.kwom.com>,
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 03:17:59 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >> Conrad is the father of the English novel, and is respected as one
> >> of the greatest novelist of the English language.
> >
> >"Father of the English novel". Hmm.....have you heard of Melville,
> >Hawthorne, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.? (I'm assuming by your last
> >phrase that you mean "English language novel")
> >
>
> No, I mean Spanish language English novel.
You claimed that Conrad was the "Father of the English novel".
Kind of interesting, considering the fact that his first experiences
with English involved, as a child , seeing the works of Cooper and
Melville.
I guess those wonderful "Polish primary sources" led you to believe
that that Conrad was the "Father of the English novel" or even better
the "greatest English language novelist".
> >Certainly he is one of the greatest, although far behind James Joyce
> >and many many others (personally I prefer Conrad to Joyce but that
> >is a very idiosyncratic belief). If authors were ranked like pop
> >music
> >songs Conrad would perhaps make the top twenty among English language
> >novelists, but would not crack the top ten. If you take into account
> >world literature he would be still less significant, although yes he
> >is still quite important. Comparing him or especially Sienkewicz to
> >Gogol or Tolstoy is *quite* absurd, however.
>
> Gogol? Tolstoy was a great, but Gogol is a minor figure. Putting him
> anywhere near a list of Tolstoy, Conrad, Sienkiewicz is an act of
> absurdity only a semi-Uke like you could commit.
???? More fruits of Polish primary sources? In the Encyclopedia
Britannica Gogol is given as much coverage as Conrad (one would assume
any bias in Britannica would be in favor of the English novelist).
Sienkewicz on the other hand is given a brief few paragraphs, basically
ending in the comment that his "major novels have been criticized for
their theatricality and lack of historical accuracy".
Are you literate? I do not mean this as an insult, but do you read
much? If you did, I doubt that you would post the ridiculous statement
of Conrad being the father of the English novel, or Sienkewicz being on
a level comparable to Conrad, Tolstoy or Gogel. I mean, you were
probably completely unaware of Cooper, Melville, etc. etc.
Oh, Tolstoy is far more highly regarded than either Conrad or Gogol.
His Anna Karenina is considered by many critics to be the finest novel
written.
> >
> >Perhaps we should repost this to some kind of literature newsgroup
and
> >see what they say. I dount that they would take a post including the
> >phrases "Conrad father of the English novel" or "greatest English
> >language novelist" seriously however.
> >
> >Babai
>
> You dont think so? I oposted a long article on rec.arts.books on
> Conrad, and the responses were quite favopurable. Ofcourse those
> people dont have a Polish fear and deep seeded hatred inflicted upon
> them by their illiterate peasant parents like you, so they have a
> clear understanding of the significance of Conrad to the English
> language.
Quite favorable? How so? I stated that Conrad was a great novelist,
so in that case they agreed with me. You on the other felt the need to
exagerate (inferiority complex, perhaps?) that he was the "father of the
English novel" or the greatest English-language writer of novels.
A few people might think the latter (hell, I consider Bulgakov to be
one of the greatest writers, although he is not very well-known) but
the consensus is far different.
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > > to even try and keep up and match
> > > Polish culture. That was my point.
> >
> > Ah, more of your talk on Ukrainian culture.
> >
> > Hitler on Poland and its culture:
> >
> > "a so-called state lacking every national historical, cultural
> > and moral foundation"
> Due to the nature and honesty of the speaker of those words,I take
> it for a comliment.
>
> > Sounds an awful lot like your numerous descriptions of Ukraine...
> And that what Ukrainians say about Ukraine sound very similiar (and is
> quite similiar) to that what Nazi's maked up about Germany.
How so? Examples mbacal?
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
> >
> >"a so-called state lacking every national historical, cultural
> >and moral foundation"
> >
> >
> >
>
> Quoting Ukraine's WW2 ally again?
By seeing the similarity betweent he ways of thinking as shown by the
pair of quotes above, one can determine who is whose ally.
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
...cut...
> Last time finished reading "Ogniem i Mieczem" ("With Sword and Fire")
> I was't very hate filled toward you.Rembember that Sienkiewicz wrote
> at the end (poor translation) "Hate grew in hearts and poisoned the
> brother blood"
Dostoyevsky's description weren't hate-fueling, they were merely
patronizing and played upon negative stereotypes. Like
Sienkewicz.
...cut...
> >
> > Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the info. Nietzsche was not
> > the only such German thinker. Joseph Gottfried Herder, an
> > influential crrator of the modern idea of nationalism, wrote
> > "Ukraine will one day become a new Greece; the beautiful climate
> > of this country, the gay disposition of the people, their musical
> > inclination, and the fertile soil will all awaken...there will
> > rise a great and cultured nation whose boundaries will extend to
> > the Black Sea and thence into the far-flung world".
> Well,I hope your nation will fulfill that vision someday.But
> unfortunately,current situation is far from that.
I agree with you here.
> > Oswald Spengler predicted that one day Faustian (Western European)
> > civilization would one day, following a period of decay and
> > decadence (the current age)
> IMO the question is: Did Western civilization reached apogeum of it's
> decadence? Or is the apogeum yet to come?
Spengler predicted in the 20's in his Decline of the West book that a
monstrous conflict would occur in which the major paradigms of Western
(he called it Faustian) civilization fought for supremacy. This part
is over, and has been resolved. Communism and fascism were destroyed
and the West is dominated by the Viking materialistic "trader" culture
of the UK and its heir the United States.
He compared this to, at the close of the Classical age, the dominance
of Rome in relation to Sparta, Athens, and other classical states.
The particular UK/American system of values, morals, etc. is thus
comparable to the Roman system which dominated the entire Classical
world in its last stage. Thus, according to Spengler, we are in the
last stage of Western civilization.
Of course, we are at its height, like Rome in 100 AD or so. However,
the only way to go now is down, into continued decadence, moral and
spiritual decline, etc. etc. But that is all a long way away.
Anyways, that's my take on it. I have not read Decline of the West for
a long time. Spengler makes numerous interesting comparisons, showing
how Rome in its "end-phase" was having a problem with falling birth
rates, resulting depopulation and various government schemes to
encourage population growth (tax credits, etc.) which reminded me of
a similar situation in the West, particularly in Western Europe; the
younger America has a similar situation in its future, unless (like Rome
did) it settles its land by newcoming immigrants. Spengler also
described the coming of the "metropolis" at the last stage - the
universality of the city and of all cities. Etc. etc. You get the
picture.
> >, be conquered and pushed aside by the culture of the
> > Slavs (unfortunately he was too enamored of Danilevsky's idea and
> > thought that Russia would lead the way).
> Many Westerners were (are?) completely wrong when it came to Russia.
Yup.
> > > So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
> >
> > Well...it would be akin to Ukrainians claiming Tchaikovsky or
> > Chekhov (both of Ukrainian descent, quite enamored of Ukrainian
> > culture, and incorporating some Ukrainian themes into their works,
> > yet very Russian). 30 of Tchaikovsky's works for example
> > incorporated Ukrainian folk melodies or used Ukrainian themes,
> > including the opera Mazepa, symphonies no.2, no. 4, and n0. 7, and
> > the opening of the famousd 1812 overture.
> >
> > Gogol is a completely different story, being a Ukrainian from
> > Ukraine who, although writing in Russian, wrote of Ukrainian themes
> > (Taras Bulba among many others) and whose works had a very Ukrainian
> > quality.
> >
> > Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
> > claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
> > native language
> Nor did Gogol.In fact,did Gogol know ukrainian language? (well)
I am almost embarrased to answer this question for you, mbacal.
Gogol was born March 19, 1809 in a Ukrainian village in the Poltava
region (the most Ukrainian of non-Galician lands, and the basis of the
Ukrainian literary language) and lived there throughout his early
childhood. Both of his parents were members of the petty Ukrainian
gentry, in fact his father composed Ukrainian theatrical comedies, one
of which he helped puton when he was a student at a boarding school in
Chernihiv.
His first acclaimed works caused a stir in Russia partially because of
their use of numerous Ukrainian words and phrases.
So yes, mbacal, Gogol did know Ukrainian.
Gogol left for St. Petersburg when he was several years older than when
Conrad left Poland.
> > and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes.
> Incorporating Polish themes is not a duty.Mickiewicz incorporated
> Tatar(Crimean)themes. Gogol incorporated russian themes as well
> (Petersburg).
Of course not. But in the case of Gogol and Conrad it does show to an
extent where one's frame of mind is. Mickiewicz dreamed of Crimea,
Gogol of his idyllic childhood in Ukraine, while Conrad did not seem to
concern himself too much with Poland, at least creatively.
So if one were to compare who was "more or less" Polish or Ukrainian,
it would not be incorrect to conclude that Gogol was more Ukrainian
than Conrad was Polish, although neither belonged to the literary
traditions of their country of birth.
Babai
bab...@my-deja.com
> >claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
> >In fact, the Stanford professor Alfred Guerard claimed that Joseph
> >Conrad was in most respects "more British than the British".
> >
> >
>
???? Then in that case Conrad must be an Englishman of Polish
ancestry.
> but claiming a Pole born in Poland whose 1st language was Polish, who
> was educated in Poland, who only learned English in his adulthood OTOH
> is somehow strange?
???? I am surprized by your lack of what I thought was common
knowledge about Gogol. Thank you for so dramatically showing
everybody how insightful your Polish sources must be. I mean, first,
"Conrad - father of the Enlish-language novel", and "Conrad - greatest
English language novelist", and now this.
FYI:
Gogol was born March 19, 1809 in a Ukrainian village in the Poltava
region (one of the most Ukrainian of non-Galician lands, and the basis
of the Ukrainian literary language) and lived there throughout his
early childhood. Both of his parents were members of the petty
Ukrainian gentry, in fact his father composed Ukrainian theatrical
comedies, one of which he helped put on when he was a student at a
boarding school in Chernihiv.
His first acclaimed works caused a stir in Russia partially because of
their use of numerous Ukrainian words and phrases.
Gogol left for St. Petersburg when he was several years older than when
Conrad left Poland.
In his earliest literary works, Gogol wrote of his
idyllic youth in Ukraine, while Conrad did not seem to concern himself
too much with Poland, at least creatively.
So if one were to compare who was "more or less" Polish or Ukrainian,
it would not be incorrect to conclude that Gogol was more Ukrainian
than Conrad was Polish, although neither belonged to the literary
traditions of their country of birth.
> Well, I suppose you see the logic there, afterall you need to
> say so since you, like Gogol arent a true Ukrainian, just Ukrainian by
> family descent.
???? I guess you also think that the millions of Jews not living in
Israel are not "real Jews" either. Some of those millions were even
living outside their of their country for literally 100's of generations
longer than I have been.
> As user said, if not incorporating Polish themes makes you not Polish,
> is Lem a Pole or an alien?
I never claimed that. I wonder is User is as "intelligent" when it
comes to Conrad and Gogol as you are?
You are the one who claimed that Gogol was somehow less Ukrainian
than Conrad was Polish. I just showed how Gogol not lived longer in
Ukraine than Conrad lived in, er, um - he didn't even live in Poland
did he? He grew up in the Ukrainian part of the Russian Empire!
I also showd you how his Ukrainian experience influenced his creativity
and his work, such as Taras Bulba and Evening in Dykanki.
So yes, indeed, if one were forced to say - who was more of a
Ukrainian or Pole, Gogol was more of a Ukrainian than Conrad was a
Pole, although neither belonged to the literary tradition of his
country of origin.
Babai
RPP
>
>???? More fruits of Polish primary sources? In the Encyclopedia
>Britannica Gogol is given as much coverage as Conrad (one would assume
>any bias in Britannica would be in favor of the English novelist).
Really? In my Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, Conrad is given 15
lines, Gogol is given 5.
>Are you literate? I do not mean this as an insult, but do you read
>much? If you did, I doubt that you would post the ridiculous statement
>of Conrad being the father of the English novel, or Sienkewicz being on
>a level comparable to Conrad, Tolstoy or Gogel. I mean, you were
>probably completely unaware of Cooper, Melville, etc. etc.
>
Judging frrom your nonsense, thats a question you ought to ask
yourself, not me. To even insist that a minor, peripheral and average
writer like Gogol be compared with Conrad is like some idiot 100 years
from now insisting on the brilliance of Micheal Crichton.
>Oh, Tolstoy is far more highly regarded than either Conrad or Gogol.
>His Anna Karenina is considered by many critics to be the finest novel
>written.
There you go kissing Russian ass again.
RPP
>
>You are the one who claimed that Gogol was somehow less Ukrainian
>than Conrad was Polish. I just showed how Gogol not lived longer in
>Ukraine than Conrad lived in, er, um - he didn't even live in Poland
>did he? He grew up in the Ukrainian part of the Russian Empire!
>
>I also showd you how his Ukrainian experience influenced his creativity
>and his work, such as Taras Bulba and Evening in Dykanki.
>
>So yes, indeed, if one were forced to say - who was more of a
>Ukrainian or Pole, Gogol was more of a Ukrainian than Conrad was a
>Pole, although neither belonged to the literary tradition of his
>country of origin.
>
The question here is this. How did your experience qualify you to be a
Ukrianian? I mean how does having a traitorous family of cowards
affect a person? You seem to be over doing it in your attemopts to
prove to us your ukrainian-ness. You are the ONLY one in this
discussion who is not of Polish or Ukrainian naionality, and as an
outsider you are trying to show us how you fit in this equation.
Have you ever vistied the Ukraine? I suppose it was tough to get
people to translate for you. You seem to me like one of those amateur
ethinics in America who love to go to the ethnic neighbourhood to eat
some homeland food, soak up the atmosphere and practice their
language.
mba...@my-deja.com
problem with Russian was always obvious.
> > > > So I'm not sure if claiming him a Pole would be desperate.
>
> > >
> > > Well...it would be akin to Ukrainians claiming Tchaikovsky or
> > > Chekhov (both of Ukrainian descent, quite enamored of Ukrainian
> > > culture, and incorporating some Ukrainian themes into their works,
> > > yet very Russian). 30 of Tchaikovsky's works for example
> > > incorporated Ukrainian folk melodies or used Ukrainian themes,
> > > including the opera Mazepa, symphonies no.2, no. 4, and n0. 7, and
> > > the opening of the famousd 1812 overture.
> > >
> > > Gogol is a completely different story, being a Ukrainian from
> > > Ukraine who, although writing in Russian, wrote of Ukrainian
themes
> > > (Taras Bulba among many others) and whose works had a very
Ukrainian
> > > quality.
> > >
> > > Claiming Gogol as Ukrainian would thus be more accurate than, say
> > > claiming Conrad as a Pole. The latter also did not write in his
> > > native language
>
> > Nor did Gogol.In fact,did Gogol know ukrainian language? (well)
>
> I am almost embarrased to answer this question for you, mbacal.
I'm not an expert on this matters.
> Gogol was born March 19, 1809 in a Ukrainian village in the Poltava
> region (the most Ukrainian of non-Galician lands, and the basis of the
> Ukrainian literary language) and lived there throughout his early
> childhood. Both of his parents were members of the petty Ukrainian
> gentry, in fact his father composed Ukrainian theatrical comedies, one
> of which he helped puton when he was a student at a boarding school in
> Chernihiv.
>
> His first acclaimed works caused a stir in Russia partially because of
> their use of numerous Ukrainian words and phrases.
>
> So yes, mbacal, Gogol did know Ukrainian.
>
> Gogol left for St. Petersburg when he was several years older than
when
> Conrad left Poland.
>
> > > and moreover, did not even incorporate Polish themes.
>
> > Incorporating Polish themes is not a duty.Mickiewicz incorporated
> > Tatar(Crimean)themes. Gogol incorporated russian themes as well
> > (Petersburg).
>
> Of course not. But in the case of Gogol and Conrad it does show to an
> extent where one's frame of mind is. Mickiewicz dreamed of Crimea,
> Gogol of his idyllic childhood in Ukraine,
I've heard that man was Tzar supporter.He was enemy of Ukraine.
> while Conrad did not seem to
> concern himself too much with Poland, at least creatively.
But he was't enemy of Poland.
> So if one were to compare who was "more or less" Polish or Ukrainian,
> it would not be incorrect to conclude that Gogol was more Ukrainian
> than Conrad was Polish, although neither belonged to the literary
> traditions of their country of birth.
In ethnic means Conrad was 100% Pole.Polish was his primary language.
Stepaniak Leszek
>
>On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:14:03 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>
>>You are the one who claimed that Gogol was somehow less Ukrainian
>>than Conrad was Polish. I just showed how Gogol not lived longer in
>>Ukraine than Conrad lived in, er, um - he didn't even live in Poland
>>did he? He grew up in the Ukrainian part of the Russian Empire!
>>
>>I also showd you how his Ukrainian experience influenced his creativity
A columnist of Aftenposten (issue 20.06.99, p. 9, Aftenposten is the
largest Norwegian paper) in the essay : "Joseph Conrad - unfortunately
very up to date" refers to Conrads "Heart of Darkness" . He also writes
that "Conrad characterized himself as homo duplex" and that "although Conrad
emigrated from Poland , was sea men and later English writing novelist ,
he was all his life influenced by Polish ideals and values". In Polish
school I learned that Joseph Conrad -Korzeniowski was an English novelist and
I agree with this . In another posting somebody quoted a comment of one the
VIP in English literature who stated that Conrad was essence of British
man or something like that. I believe that the VIP is quite dandy.
Somebody noticed that typical phenomenon of small nations (take Ireland,
Norway) is that they are giving a birth to waste higher number of great
talents in literature and art that statistical calculation would indicate.
Leszek Stepaniak
>>
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:24:40 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> > ???? More fruits of Polish primary sources? In the Encyclopedia
> > Britannica Gogol is given as much coverage as Conrad (one would
> > assume any bias in Britannica would be in favor of the English
> > novelist).
>
> Really? In my Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary, Conrad is given 15
> lines, Gogol is given 5.
What is Webster's, whose primary focus is not Encyclopedias, compared
to Britannica which is generally considered the top source of
information. It's like comparing Sienkewicz to Gogol and Conrad,
frankly. A book of the world's greatest masterpieces published by
Harper & Row and compiled by professors from 10 American universities
lists 2 works each by Conrad and Gogol. Dostoyevsky in contrast has
four, Hemmingway 5 (which I disagree with), Faulkner several, Tolstoy 3
I beleive, etc. etc.
Anyways this is quite silly...discussing the merits of literature with
someone who basically only reads Polish works, and who is crazy about
the amateur poetry of say Jim Morrison ("I am the lizard king, I can do
anything".....must in your estimation be comparable say to T.S. Eliot)
> >Are you literate? I do not mean this as an insult, but do you read
> >much? If you did, I doubt that you would post the ridiculous
> >statement of Conrad being the father of the English novel, or
> >Sienkewicz being
> >on a level comparable to Conrad, Tolstoy or Gogel. I mean, you were
> >probably completely unaware of Cooper, Melville, etc. etc.
> >
>
> Judging frrom your nonsense,
What nonsense? I merely repeat what is considered in the world outside
of Poland.
> thats a question you ought to ask
> yourself, not me. To even insist that a minor, peripheral and average
> writer like Gogol be compared with Conrad is like some idiot 100 years
> from now insisting on the brilliance of Micheal Crichton.
150 years after Gogol he is still considered one of the greatest.
I suspect you refer to Crichton here, a non-Polish author (I guess,
cause I don't read that kind of stuff) merely because Jurassic Park was
one of the most popular movies in Polish history.
>
> >Oh, Tolstoy is far more highly regarded than either Conrad or Gogol.
> >His Anna Karenina is considered by many critics to be the finest
> >novel written.
>
> There you go kissing Russian ass again.
As I have explained to mbacal, your inability to seperate politics from
aesthetics is a prime example of communist upbringing. This
unfortunate aspect of your personality probably also explains your
insistence on Conrad being the "greatest English novelist", the "father
of English literature", Sienkewicz being comparable to Gogol or Conrad
or Tolstoy, etc. You've tranformed Commie slavishness and distortion
reality into a pseudo-Polish variant of the same thing.
In other words, Homo Sovieticus has now evolved into Homo Sovieticus
Polonis, in your case.
bab...@my-deja.com
mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
...cut...
> >
> > > Many Westerners were (are?) completely wrong when it came to
> > > Russia.
> >
> > Yup.
> I really do not understand how can they be so mistaken.To us,Poles the
> problem with Russian was always obvious.
So it has been to all of Russia's neighbors...
...cut...
> >
> > > Nor did Gogol.In fact,did Gogol know ukrainian language? (well)
> >
> > I am almost embarrased to answer this question for you, mbacal.
> I'm not an expert on this matters.
Ok, good that you admit it. Why then did you jump to the conclusion
that I was wrong on this issue? If you don't understand something,
don't act as if you do.
...cut...
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:14:03 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >You are the one who claimed that Gogol was somehow less Ukrainian
> >than Conrad was Polish. I just showed how Gogol not lived longer in
> >Ukraine than Conrad lived in, er, um - he didn't even live in Poland
> >did he? He grew up in the Ukrainian part of the Russian Empire!
> >
> >I also showd you how his Ukrainian experience influenced his
creativity
> >
> >So yes, indeed, if one were forced to say - who was more of a
> >Ukrainian or Pole, Gogol was more of a Ukrainian than Conrad was a
> >Pole, although neither belonged to the literary tradition of his
> >country of origin.
Rather than honorably admitting you are wrong (re: your primitive
attempts to mock me by claiming Gogol was not from UKraine) you resort
to changing the subject and, morevoer, resorting to insults like a
spoiled child throwing a tantrum when the grade school teacher corrects
it.
As for nationality, with the obvious exception of Jews few, if any,
immigrant groups have preservbed their traditions, language, etc. in
America more so than Ukrainians have. Yes, I have been to Ukraine, and
will be going there within a few months
No I did not need a translator, in fact I have seen some Ukrainians
cry when I spoke to them in the langauge of our ancestors because they
had forgotten it to certain extent after decades of Russification.
I take you believe that Jews not born in Israel are not real "Jews"
either? That as "outsiders" they have nothing to say when it comes to
Jewish issues? Are are you merely inconsistant as usual?
Babai
>
> The question here is this. How did your experience qualify you to be a
> Ukrianian? I mean how does having a traitorous family of cowards
> affect a person? You seem to be over doing it in your attemopts to
> prove to us your ukrainian-ness. You are the ONLY one in this
> discussion who is not of Polish or Ukrainian naionality, and as an
> outsider you are trying to show us how you fit in this equation.
>
> Have you ever vistied the Ukraine? I suppose it was tough to get
> people to translate for you. You seem to me like one of those amateur
> ethinics in America who love to go to the ethnic neighbourhood to eat
> some homeland food, soak up the atmosphere and practice their
> language.
>
bab...@my-deja.com
Interesting. Leszczek, Conrad died in the 1920's. Did he
interact/write about Poland, which had just regained its independence?
Just curious,
Babai
In article <7kkpq5$sjn$1...@snipp.uninett.no>,
in...@inf.nlh.no (Stepaniak Leszek) wrote:
> In article <376c68e0....@news.kwom.com>, le...@mail.netinc.ca
says...
> >
> >On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:14:03 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>You are the one who claimed that Gogol was somehow less Ukrainian
> >>than Conrad was Polish. I just showed how Gogol not lived longer in
> >>Ukraine than Conrad lived in, er, um - he didn't even live in Poland
> >>did he? He grew up in the Ukrainian part of the Russian Empire!
> >>
> >>I also showd you how his Ukrainian experience influenced his
creativity
RPP
>
>
>Rather than honorably admitting you are wrong (re: your primitive
>attempts to mock me by claiming Gogol was not from UKraine) you resort
>to changing the subject and, morevoer, resorting to insults like a
>spoiled child throwing a tantrum when the grade school teacher corrects
>it.
>
>As for nationality, with the obvious exception of Jews few, if any,
>immigrant groups have preservbed their traditions, language, etc. in
>America more so than Ukrainians have. Yes, I have been to Ukraine, and
>will be going there within a few months
>
Wow, going for a visit? You must feel really Ukrainian now. Too bad
your family fled the country like a bunch of cowards so that you
couldnt be a real Ukrainian.
>No I did not need a translator, in fact I have seen some Ukrainians
>cry when I spoke to them in the langauge of our ancestors because they
>had forgotten it to certain extent after decades of Russification.
They cried because of your accent I suppose. It must be an awful
feeling listening to your broken Ukrainian with an American accent. I
would cry too if I heard it..
>
>I take you believe that Jews not born in Israel are not real "Jews"
>either? That as "outsiders" they have nothing to say when it comes to
>Jewish issues? Are are you merely inconsistant as usual?
>
Oh baba, your defensive stance shows you have some serious issues. I
guess you realize that you will never be a real Ukrainian, but merely
an amateur trying to connect with his roots.
And the Jewish analogy doesnt work. Judaism is a religion. A Jew can
be of any race. Ukrainian is a specific ethnicity, connected to a
specific place. While a Chinese or Ethipoian can be a Jew, an
Ethiopian cant be a Ukrainian. Just like you cant be a real Ukrainian.
Sure, your parents may be Ukrainians tho they fled like cowards from
Ukraine, but you are not. You are a hobby Ukrainian, not much more.
And being a tourist in Ukraine doesnt make you Ukrainian.
>
>Babai
>
>
>>
>> The question here is this. How did your experience qualify you to be a
>> Ukrianian? I mean how does having a traitorous family of cowards
>> affect a person? You seem to be over doing it in your attemopts to
>> prove to us your ukrainian-ness. You are the ONLY one in this
>> discussion who is not of Polish or Ukrainian naionality, and as an
>> outsider you are trying to show us how you fit in this equation.
>>
>> Have you ever vistied the Ukraine? I suppose it was tough to get
>> people to translate for you. You seem to me like one of those amateur
>> ethinics in America who love to go to the ethnic neighbourhood to eat
>> some homeland food, soak up the atmosphere and practice their
>> language.
>>
>
>
RPP
>
>Anyways this is quite silly...discussing the merits of literature with
>someone who basically only reads Polish works, and who is crazy about
>the amateur poetry of say Jim Morrison ("I am the lizard king, I can do
>anything".....must in your estimation be comparable say to T.S. Eliot)
>
I dont read only Polish works, but mainly. As for Morrison, do you
have a problem with him? I enjoy Morrison more than Elliot, but Im not
going tosay he is more respected because he is not. As for why I read
mainly Polish works, is because Im a Pole. A REAL Pole, born and
raised, not a hobbyist like you.
>
>
>> thats a question you ought to ask
>> yourself, not me. To even insist that a minor, peripheral and average
>> writer like Gogol be compared with Conrad is like some idiot 100 years
>> from now insisting on the brilliance of Micheal Crichton.
>
>150 years after Gogol he is still considered one of the greatest.
>I suspect you refer to Crichton here, a non-Polish author (I guess,
>cause I don't read that kind of stuff) merely because Jurassic Park was
>one of the most popular movies in Polish history.
So? It was also one of the most popular in your country, the USA.
>
>>
>> >Oh, Tolstoy is far more highly regarded than either Conrad or Gogol.
>> >His Anna Karenina is considered by many critics to be the finest
>> >novel written.
>>
>> There you go kissing Russian ass again.
>
>As I have explained to mbacal, your inability to seperate politics from
>aesthetics is a prime example of communist upbringing.
ooohh, dont insult me. You know, the more you attack my "communist
upbringing" the more you attack and insult the land of your parents.
And if I had to choose my "communist upbringing" for your American
upbringing, Id choose the former. There would be nothing worse than
realizinf no matter how much I try, I could never be a real Pole, well
tha would eat me up. But thats your situation, you are a hobbyist
Ukrainian, with your broken Ukrainian and American accent.
> This
>unfortunate aspect of your personality probably also explains your
>insistence on Conrad being the "greatest English novelist", the "father
>of English literature",
You see, you show more soviet tendencies than me. I never said "father
of English literature", but the English novel. There is a raher large
difference.
>Sienkewicz being comparable to Gogol or Conrad
>or Tolstoy, etc. You've tranformed Commie slavishness and distortion
>reality into a pseudo-Polish variant of the same thing.
>
Here you go again with your children story writer Gogol.
>In other words, Homo Sovieticus has now evolved into Homo Sovieticus
>Polonis, in your case.
>
Or Homo Ukrainus Amateuris in yours. Have a nice day, and get a
translator for your trip to Ukraine. You will need it.
>
>Babai
Stepaniak Leszek
>
>
>
>Interesting. Leszczek, Conrad died in the 1920's. Did he
>interact/write about Poland, which had just regained its independence?
>Just curious,
>
>
>Babai
twice, but I do not remember when.
Leszek
>
>
>I
bab...@my-deja.com
le...@mail.netinc.ca wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 02:09:52 GMT, bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Rather than honorably admitting you are wrong (re: your primitive
> >attempts to mock me by claiming Gogol was not from UKraine) you
> >resort to changing the subject and, morevoer, resorting to insults
> >like a spoiled child throwing a tantrum when the grade school teacher
> >corrects it.
Your responses below merely confirm what I wrote above:
Babai
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Interesting. Leszczek, Conrad died in the 1920's. Did he
> interact/write about Poland, which had just regained its independence?
> Just curious,
He wrote articles titled "Notes on Polish Problem" (1916) and "The
Crime of Partition" (1919).
(freehand translation)
"Poles (...) are people of the West in temperament,in feelings,even in
lack of reason,with absolute understanding of all western ways of
thinking,even those far away from their historical experience"
J.Conrad, Notes on Life and Letters
(poor freehand translation)
"Both german obedience (even the most idealistic one),and russian
lawlessness (grown on degeneration of all virtues) are completely alien
to polish nation,who's advantages and disadvantages are of completely
another sort (...)"
J.Conrad Crime of the Partitions
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <7kif2f$er2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> mba...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> ...cut...
>
> > >
> > > > Russia.
> > >
> > > Yup.
>
> > I really do not understand how can they be so mistaken.To us,Poles
the
> > problem with Russian was always obvious.
>
change.
> ...cut...
>
> > >
> > > > Nor did Gogol.In fact,did Gogol know ukrainian language? (well)
> > >
> > > I am almost embarrased to answer this question for you, mbacal.
>
> > I'm not an expert on this matters.
>
> Ok, good that you admit it. Why then did you jump to the conclusion
> that I was wrong on this issue? If you don't understand something,
> don't act as if you do.
Being not expert does't mean lack of understanding.
Some things I do understand about Gogol:
-Gogol wrote in russian
-He was a Tzarist supporter (IMO this equals to being anti-ukrainian)
-People around the world say he was a Russian writer
> ...cut...
bab...@my-deja.com
mba...@my-deja.com
bab...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Thank you....
You're welcome...