Yad Vashem Stole Murals From Ukraine for Its New Museum - 20Jun01
Stefan Lemieszewski
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/20/arts/20MURA.html?ei=1&en=bf&ex=994051660&page
wanted=print
June 20, 2001
Artwork by Holocaust Victim Is Focus of Dispute
By CELESTINE BOHLEN
A bitter international scandal has erupted in a city
in Ukraine, about 30 miles from the Polish border,
where last month workers from Yad Vashem, Israel's
main Holocaust museum, chiseled five fragments from
a newly discovered series of wall paintings. They
are the last known work of Bruno Schulz, a Polish
Jewish writer, artist and Holocaust victim.
With that single act, whose legality is disputed,
Yad Vashem, the most august memorial to Jewish victims
of Nazi slaughter, has unleashed a rumble of protests
through a part of Europe that still feels battered
and bruised by a vicious and violent century.
The Schulz murals, illustrations of Grimm fairy tales
that decorated the nursery of a Gestapo officer's son,
have been caught in the throes of that history.
According to Yad Vashem, the fragments in its
possession, which depict a princess, a horse-drawn
carriage and several shadowy figures, including two
dwarfs, are now being restored. Plans call for them
to be put on display at Yad Vashem's new historical
museum in Jerusalem, which is to open in 2004.
Schulz, an evocative writer whose stylized drawings
also have a cult following, painted the murals under
duress. He was working on them when he was shot to
death on Nov. 19, 1942, in Nazi-occupied Drogobych
(pronounced droh-HOH-bich), or Drohobycz, as it had
been known between the wars, when it was part of Poland.
They were found last winter by Benjamin Geissler, a
German filmmaker, in an apartment inside the villa
once occupied by Franz Landau, the Gestapo officer
who demanded them. Mr. Geissler, 37, had come to
research a film on Schulz, a tragic figure who, it
was once said, was born an Austrian, lived as a Pole
and died as a Jew.
In written statements, representatives of Yad Vashem
defended the removal of the fragments. They said they
had approval from local authorities in Drogobych, a
point that the authorities vehemently dispute.
But the crux of Yad Vashem's argument refers to a
higher claim to property left by Jewish Holocaust
victims, particularly in Poland, where the prewar
Jewish community of 3.5 million has now dwindled
to several thousand.
"Most of the Holocaust survivors live in Israel,
but the remnants of the vibrant Jewish life, and of
the suffering of the victims and the survivors are
scattered throughout Europe," wrote Lisa Davidson,
an assistant spokeswoman for the museum. "Therefore
we have the moral right to those remnants."
This argument has been fiercely disputed in Poland,
where Schulz is seen first and foremost as a Polish
writer. His luminous, sensuous style, in books like
"The Street of Crocodiles" (originally titled
"Cinnamon Shops") and "The Sanitorium Under the
Sign of the Hourglass," has earned him a faithful
following inside and outside Poland.
When Jerzy Ficowski, a Warsaw- based author and
editor who is Poland's leading expert on Schulz,
heard that Yad Vashem had taken the fragments,
he dismissed it as an absurd impossibility.
"Alas, after a few days I had to retract my denials
because Yad Vashem itself acknowledged what it
considers to be an act of justice, and what I
consider a crime," he said through a Polish
translator.
Ms. Davidson of Yad Vashem said that Drogobych
officials had told the museum's representatives
that the disposition of the wall paintings was up
to the Kaluzhni family, owners of the apartment
where they had been found. She also said that the
same officials said that the city had final
authority over the murals.
But Nikola Mykhac, head of the city's cultural
affairs department, said in a telephone interview
that no one from the city administration had given
written or oral permission for removal or export
of the fragments.
"There was no talk of taking away these effects,"
he said. "We cannot even imagine how they could
have removed them from a technical point of view."
Mr. Mykhac said he only helped arrange an initial
viewing of the wall paintings by the Yad Vashem
representatives.
Once the removal, which took place from May 19 to
May 21, was discovered, the event become front- page
news in Poland. Polish officials issued a statement
condemning the action, which they said bordered on
vandalism, and cultural commentators delved into the
tricky question of whether Schulz was a Jewish author
writing in Polish or a Polish author of Jewish origin.
Ukraine's claim to Schulz, which is based purely on
geography, is more accidental. But still, Drogobych,
once a bustling multicultural center in Galicia, an
Austro-Hungarian province, was where Schulz spent his
first and final years. (He went to university in Vienna,
where his family fled just before World War I.) "This
town and land became a self-sufficient microcosm," he
wrote in "The Republic of Dreams," an essay.
"This was his small homeland, the only world where he
could breathe and work, as he himself has said," Mr.
Ficowski said. "He rejected all offers to move elsewhere,
to Warsaw or wherever, because he was not able to create
anywhere but Drogobycz. Thus his artwork was not only
chopped up, and a part of it taken away; it was also
wrenched from its most important context."
Perhaps the most bitter reaction has come from
Drogobych's tiny Jewish community, made up of fewer
than 400 Jews.
Dora Katznelson, 80, vice president of the Reform
Jewish congregation in Drogobych, was so infuriated
that she sent a letter to the Israeli government,
which was later published in the Polish newspaper
Gazeta Wyborcza.
"Not just Jews and Poles," Ms. Katznelson wrote, "but
also Ukrainians who read every day in Ukrainian
newspapers about the barbarous theft of Schulz's
paintings, cry in wonder, `Yad Vashem? It's impossible.' "
Born in Bialystok, in Poland, Ms. Katznelson has spent
40 years in Drogobych and said she had once seen
firsthand the city administration's indifference to
the legacy of the Jewish community. She was present
in 1992 when a top city official declined to accept
a monument to Schulz sent by Israel on the 50th
anniversary of his death, arguing that residents
would criticize him for raising a monument to "a
stranger," even though Schulz was a native son.
Anti-Semitism, which has deep roots in the region,
has periodically erupted into violence, most
virulently during the Nazi occupation. The years
under Soviet rule were marked by another kind of
repression.
In Israel some have suggested that this history
of intolerance was reason enough to remove the wall
fragments to Yad Vashem. "Who cares about them in
Drogobych?" scoffed Yehuda Bauer, a former official
at Yad Vashem who was quoted in Gazeta Wyborcza on
June 1.
Still, Ms. Katznelson is convinced that Drogobych
is the right place for a memorial to Schulz. "These
were the last paintings of a great Polish Jewish
artist, and as his last creation, it should stay
here," she said in an interview.
Even when they were thought to be lost, the murals
have been an integral part of Schulz's story. It
was well known that he had been commanded by Landau
to decorate the walls of his son's nursery in a villa
that had itself been taken from a Jewish family.
For 60 years the murals — not frescoes, since they
were not painted in fresh plaster but in a compound
made from cheese — went undetected in the Villa Landau,
as the building came to be known. It had been divided
into five apartments after Drohobych became part of
the Soviet Ukraine after World War II.
It was only last February, when Benjamin Geissler
and his father, Christian Geissler, arrived to
research their film, that a close inspection was
finally made of the tiny pantry off the kitchen in
the apartment of Nikolai Kaluzhni, a former Communist
Party clerk, and his wife, Nadezhda.
There, behind the onions and garlic and beneath a
coat of rose-colored paint, the Geisslers found the
faint outline of Schulz's sketches. Later Polish and
Ukrainian experts came to the apartment, cleaned
some parts of the walls and confirmed that the work
was Schulz's.
Afterward, Benjamin Geissler began a campaign to
raise money to turn the Villa Landau into a museum
to Schulz and to resettle the current tenants.
Anticipating the danger of looters, he also wrote
to the Ukrainian Culture Ministry, asking for guards
at the site.
He received no response. Later, when he went to
Jerusalem to interview survivors of the Drogobych
ghetto, officials at Yad Vashem gave him no indication
of their plans, he said.
Meanwhile, Benjamin Geissler said, he received a
letter from Mr. Kaluzhni, dated May 17, saying that
a group from Israel was ready to pay $3,000 for the
murals, which, according to the city, had become his
property through the process of privatization. In the
letter Mr. Kaluzhni said he had refused the offer.
What happened next is unclear, but two days later,
the crew from Yad Vashem, led by a Ukrainian immigrant
to Israel, arrived.
All together, five fragments — the three large sketches,
each roughly one-and-a-half square feet, and two smaller
patches — were removed after gauze was taped on the
wall to protect the surface. The crew applied gauze to
another fragment but left it behind. How the fragments
were taken out of the country is not clear: under laws
from the Soviet era, export of cultural property
created before World War II requires approval from the
Ukrainian Ministry of Culture.
According to diplomats from both countries, the
Ukrainian and the Polish governments have filed formal
inquiries with the Israeli government. But so far,
they said, they have received no response.
Presumably, much more of the original murals remains
in the apartment, but it is uncertain how or when the
work will be uncovered.
"The picture is destroyed," Mr. Geissler said in a
telephone interview from Hamburg, "and nobody will
know the whole picture. For me, it is very tragic to
see Bruno Schulz only as a Jewish victim or only as
a Polish writer. He is simply Bruno Schulz, and this
is a violent post- mortem attack against him."
S A Farber
much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords and how
happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
Shalom
Stefan Lemieszewski <ste...@direct.ca> wrote in message
news:N%fZ6.27959$Mb7.9...@brie.direct.ca...
>
>
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/20/arts/20MURA.html?ei=1&en=bf&ex=994051660&p
> For 60 years the murals - not frescoes, since they
> were not painted in fresh plaster but in a compound
> made from cheese - went undetected in the Villa Landau,
> All together, five fragments - the three large sketches,
> each roughly one-and-a-half square feet, and two smaller
> patches - were removed after gauze was taped on the
Ihor
"S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> Big joke,
Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
Then they are thieves.
> Bully for them. We all know how
> much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> and how
> happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in their
houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards the
Ukrainians. By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face of
Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
>
> The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
Why do you care about the Pope? Are you Catholic?
This visit is truly special for him. He's half-Ukrainian, and he adressed
the nation in pure Ukrainian, spoken almost like a native. He said he waited
for this moment for so long and finally his dreams came true.
WaRR
Ihor wrote in message ...
Pope is half-ukrainian ? Thats a new one. Maybe he is half vietnamese too ?>
He spoke almost like a native becuse lands he is visiting used to belong
to Poland and were stolen from Poland by Stalin and given to a puppet
state called Ukrainian Soviet Republic. When Pope was younger he
used to go on outing trips to eastern Poland, now located in western
Ukraine. When he was a soldier he also used to travel there for military
excercises. Pope speaks several languages quite fluently, he speaks
fluent Italian, which I guess makes him half Italian....
But if its going to be any easier on your orthodox idiots in Kijow then make
him entirely Ukrainian.
Pope's family hostory is available on 100s websites. Go educate yourself.
On the other hand I do understand Ukrainians...they are so desperate so
for some role models and their society can only provide headless corpses...
WaRR
Poul
> "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > Big joke,
> Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> Then they are thieves.
> > Bully for them. We all know how
> > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
Huh? You never heard about Ukrainian looting Jewish homes
after Nazis sent them to death camps?
> > and how
> > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
> These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in their
> houses,
Tiny minority, bless their hearts; as opposed to vast majority who
happily cooperated with Nazis in extermination of Jews.
>and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards the
> Ukrainians.
Huh? Enlighten us...
> By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face of
> Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
What is is bullshit "Jews in the face of Kaganovich" ?
Is some Unkranian who murders people acting for all of them?
Ah, I forgot, you're Ukrainian...
RPP
Half ukrainian:) Now the Ukes are claiming the Pope as one of their
own hehehe. I guess a country with no great men has to steal them.
Ihor
"RPP" <le...@mail.neinc.ca> wrote in message
news:3b379306....@news.icom.ca...
The hehehe is supposed to change the fact that his mother was Rusin a.k.a.
Ukrainian exactly how?
Loved his speach in pure Ukrainian with no accent :)
WaRR
Ihor wrote in message ...
>
This recent article in Rzeczpospolita talks about Ukrainians trying to do
everything to increase symphaty to Pope among their fellow Ukrainians.
One way to do it was to create a myth of "pope's mother".
In a nice tone Rzeczpospolita retraces back history of Pope's family
from the records in Bielsko Biala county dating back to early 19
century. It forgives Ukrainians for making these statements quoting
that few years back even jews wanted some piece of Pope and
created their own myths.
SuperExpress wasnt that nice and simply laughed its ass off :)
WaRR
PS. Here is Reczpospolita article.
Lwowski dziennik "Za Wilnu Ukrainu" obwiescil wczoraj na pierwszej stronie,
ze "Mama Jana Pawla II byla Ukrainka". To - zdaniem gazety - mialoby byc
przyczyna sentymentu papieza do Ukrainy. Dziennik twierdzi, ze o rusinskim
pochodzeniu matki wspomnial kardynal Karol Wojtyla podczas wizyty w
Instytucie Ukrainskim w Harvardzie.
Zgadza sie, ze papiez ma do Ukrainy sentyment i ze podczas pobytu na
Kongresie Eucharystycznym w USA odwiedzil naukowa placówke ukrainska w
Harvardzie. Reszta jest zmysleniem.
Zdaniem gazety Kaczorowscy (nazwisko panienskie matki papieza) wywodza sie z
Chelmszczyzny, z której uszli do Galicji z powodu przesladowan unitów, a w
domu rodzinnym Emilii Wojtylowej mówilo sie po ukrainsku; od matki papiez
mial nauczyc sie tego jezyka, którym - twierdzi gazeta - "posluguje sie z
przyjemnoscia, w przeciwienstwie do wielu Ukrainców (którzy wola mówic po
rosyjsku)".
W aktach parafii w Bielsku-Bialej sa akta pradziada papieza, Mikolaja. Jego
syn Feliks, a dziadek Karola, urodzil sie tamze w 1849 roku, a wiec zanim
rozpoczelo sie przesladowanie unitów. Zadne zródla nie potwierdzaja, by w
dziecinstwie Karol Wojtyla znal jezyk ukrainski.
Podobne przeinaczenia biografii papieza zdarzaja sie czesto. Przed podróza
Jana Pawla II do Izraela w prasie pojawily sie "swiadectwa" dwóch kobiet -
jedna jako dziewczynke Wojtyla mial wyniesc z getta, druga rozpoznala w
papiezu widzianego podczas wojny uzbrojonego zolnierza AK. Ostatnio weteran
Armii Czerwonej przypomnial sobie, ze ocalil kleryka Wojtyle od
rozstrzelania przez NKWD. Lwowski dziennik, chcac wzbudzic sympatie do
papieza przed delikatna wizyta na Ukrainie, odwolal sie do mitu.
Ihor
"WaRR" <wa...@ojczyzna.org> wrote in message
news:VVWZ6.1001$Wr.2...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
Perhaps my knowledge of Polish is the reason, but I saw nothing in proof
that his mother wasn't Rusin. Maybe you can translate that part?
If he isn't parially Ukrainian, then gee, so it's a myth, big deal :)
>
> SuperExpress wasnt that nice and simply laughed its ass off :)
Yellow press?
WaRR
It is not a big deal but I believe in being truthful and thorough,
especially when it comes to my great countrymen like the Pope.
Since you dont understand Polish I will explain it to you. Pope's
family on his mother side (claimed by that Ukrainian newspaper
to be Ukrainian) comes from Chelmno, Poland. Mother's
maiden name is Kaczorowska, her grand grandfather was
Michal Kaczorowski, granfather Feliks Kaczorowski. All
documents date back to early 19 century and can be viewed
in Bielsko-Biala, Poland.
Now I grant you one thing. Pope is fond of western Ukraine
because as a young Polish soldier he often visited these
areas, which were by the way located in Poland at that time.
Pope loves Lwow and so do I.
WaRR
NoSpAm
> "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > Big joke,
>
> Yad Vashem or Schulz?
>
> > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
>
> Then they are thieves.
>
Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu." They would
have never allowed the mural to be restored, and they
would have destroyed the house when time came.
All this fuss is because Ukranian officials weren't
greased. If Yad Vashem shelled out a few grand to each
of them, I'm sure you would not have heard of this.
>
> > Bully for them. We all know how
> > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
>
> Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
>
You need to hit some books and find out. The Jewish posessions were
definitely looted by Ukranians and Nazis.
>
> > and how
> > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
>
> These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in their
> houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards the
> Ukrainians.
For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not. Read some books
by the survivors, and you'll see the attitude of Ukranians.
> By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face of
> Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
>
You really have no clue. Kaganovish was nothing more than a rubber stamp.
Stalin was the sole initiator of the Ukranian peasant extermination.
A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't state-sponsored
anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
>
> >
> > The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
>
> Why do you care about the Pope? Are you Catholic?
> This visit is truly special for him. He's half-Ukrainian, and he adressed
> the nation in pure Ukrainian, spoken almost like a native. He said he waited
> for this moment for so long and finally his dreams came true.
This whole Yad Vashem nonsense is the sole fault of Poland
and Ukraine. Because of their guilt towards the Jews, anything
they can implicate the Jews in is fair game for them. Shows
their real "love" of the Jews.
RPP
<ihor@N*Osp*am_12123_ukr.net> wrote:
>The hehehe is supposed to change the fact that his mother was Rusin a.k.a.
>Ukrainian exactly how?
>
His mothr was Polish, not Rusin.
>Loved his speach in pure Ukrainian with no accent :)
>
Good. You see, him being Polish he has 10 times the brains you
degenerates have. Half your wothless country doesnt speak your little
language.
Ihor
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:06:03 -0400, "Ihor"
> <ihor@N*Osp*am_12123_ukr.net> wrote:
>
>
> >The hehehe is supposed to change the fact that his mother was Rusin
a.k.a.
> >Ukrainian exactly how?
> >
>
> His mothr was Polish, not Rusin.
>
> >Loved his speach in pure Ukrainian with no accent :)
> >
>
> Good. You see, him being Polish he has 10 times the brains you
> degenerates have. Half your wothless country doesnt speak your little
> language.
If you're pathetic, this must explain why you're a Nazi. You try to
substitute your nonexistent personal pride and accomplishments with ones of
the nation you happen to belong to, and you exaggerate it ridiculously.
Don't worry about us, pathetic Nazik. You couldn't hear a word of Czech in
Praha in 1900. You Poles spoke German and Russian, the language of your
occupants. Similarly, western Ukrainians still speak some Polish, and many
eastern Ukrainians prefer Russian over Ukrainian. But everyone knows our
language fluently, it's just a matter of preference.
Ihor
"NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:3B38BF79...@nospam.org...
> Ihor wrote:
>
> > "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > Big joke,
> >
> > Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> >
> > > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> >
> > Then they are thieves.
> >
>
> Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
> Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
> there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
> attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu."
Racist BS.
> They would
> have never allowed the mural to be restored, and they
> would have destroyed the house when time came.
Come on, you're pathetic. It's a work of art, and it would most definitely
be restored, if not for thieves.
>
> All this fuss is because Ukranian officials weren't
> greased. If Yad Vashem shelled out a few grand to each
> of them, I'm sure you would not have heard of this.
>
>
> >
> > > Bully for them. We all know how
> > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> >
> > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> >
>
> You need to hit some books and find out.
What kind of books? Fascist zionist propaganda? Sorry, don't have those in
Canada, at least not where I shop.
> The Jewish posessions were
> definitely looted by Ukranians and Nazis.
>
>
> >
> > > and how
> > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
> >
> > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in
their
> > houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards
the
> > Ukrainians.
>
> For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not.
Same with collaborators and Nazis.
> Read some books
> by the survivors, and you'll see the attitude of Ukranians.
I know the attitude of Ukrainians without reading some fabricated lies like
one by Wiezenthal.
>
>
>
> > By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> > as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face
of
> > Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
> >
>
> You really have no clue. Kaganovish was nothing more than a rubber stamp.
> Stalin was the sole initiator of the Ukranian peasant extermination.
And then you can argue what the last name Dzhugashvili means.
Or that disproportionate number of Jews (to whole population) were Soviet
leaders and criminals.
Jews in Ukraine were never angels. They are partially responsible for the
anti-Semitism with their attitudes towards Ukrainians/Poles/Russians.
> A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't
state-sponsored
> anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
Anti-semitism as Soviet government policy came later, in the 60's.
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
> >
> > Why do you care about the Pope? Are you Catholic?
> > This visit is truly special for him. He's half-Ukrainian, and he
adressed
> > the nation in pure Ukrainian, spoken almost like a native. He said he
waited
> > for this moment for so long and finally his dreams came true.
>
> This whole Yad Vashem nonsense is the sole fault of Poland
> and Ukraine. Because of their guilt towards the Jews, anything
> they can implicate the Jews in is fair game for them. Shows
> their real "love" of the Jews.
Maybe shows lack of hate for Jews. I can tell you this, while some
Ukrainians are anti-semite, most don't care. I'm one of them. The one thing
that makes me angry are the lies attempted to discredit our nation and its
heroes.
Stefan Lemieszewski
Ihor wrote:
> "RPP" <le...@mail.neinc.ca> wrote in message
> news:3b38f047...@news.icom.ca...
>
> >
> > His mothr was Polish, not Rusin.
> >
The BBC's television World Report (26Jun01) today on the
Pope's visit to Lviv, mentioned that the Pope's mother was
Ukrainian.
(Perhaps only she knew for sure).
Stefan Lemieszewski
WaRR
RPP
<ste...@direct.ca> wrote:
>
>--------------22D03315C2FC6D833836DB18
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
>
>RPP wrote:
>
>>
>> His mothr was Polish, not Rusin.
>>
>
>CNN reports that the Pope's mother was Lithuanian:
Repots say she was rusin, lithuanian, jewish, etc. What next?
Japanese? Italian? Colombian? All these pathetic scoundrel nations
wish to attach themselves toa great man in any way they can. But hes
not half uke, nor half lithuanuian. He is Polish. Does he speal fluent
ukrainian? Yes, as he is a great man who speaks about 8 langages
fluently, while half of Ukraine only knows Russian language.
NoSpAm
> "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:3B38BF79...@nospam.org...
> > Ihor wrote:
> >
> > > "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > Big joke,
> > >
> > > Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> > >
> > > > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> > >
> > > Then they are thieves.
> > >
> >
> > Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
> > Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
> > there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
> > attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu."
>
> Racist BS.
>
Racist? What about Ukrainain's constant love of the
Jews? Going back to 1600s Ukrainians simply loved to
kill Jews. For the heck of it. Or, more likely for the plunder,
and also because nobody protected them. Is that racist too?
>
> > They would
> > have never allowed the mural to be restored, and they
> > would have destroyed the house when time came.
>
> Come on, you're pathetic. It's a work of art, and it would most definitely
> be restored, if not for thieves.
>
Since when did Ukrainians care about art? They can't even
take care of their own people, much less of art.
There are still people living in Chernobyl area,
and there are hundreds of thousands of people
who got doses high enough so that their immune
system is a wreck for the rest of their lives.
Israel happens to treat people like that. They even
took in some Ukraininan children to treat. What did
Ukraine do? They are "angry" about some artwork.
They should be kissing Israel's feet for treating their
kids. This is called "Ukrainian" attitude. Racist enough for you?
If you didn't see the pattern, Israel took in a piece
of art which would surely have NOT been restored
because in Ukraine nothing gets done if there is
no "grease" to go along. But why pay for some
lowlife official to MAYBE do anything about it
(Ukrainians NEVER cared for Jewish art) when
Yad Vashem can do a much better job at it.
>
> >
> > All this fuss is because Ukranian officials weren't
> > greased. If Yad Vashem shelled out a few grand to each
> > of them, I'm sure you would not have heard of this.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Bully for them. We all know how
> > > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> > >
> > > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> > >
> >
> > You need to hit some books and find out.
>
> What kind of books? Fascist zionist propaganda? Sorry, don't have those in
> Canada, at least not where I shop.
>
What are you? A freakin' Zhovto-Blakitni Nationalist? Bei Zhidiv i
Moskaliv? Nothing new under the sun. I bet you wouldn't even
visit Ukraine because you are not so nationalist about Chernobyl.
As for books, Canada has plenty of Jews you can hate, and I'm
sure you can ask your local rabbi to provide some to you for free,
in case your welfare check is too small.
>
> > The Jewish posessions were
> > definitely looted by Ukranians and Nazis.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > and how
> > > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
> > >
> > > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in
> their
> > > houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards
> the
> > > Ukrainians.
> >
> > For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not.
>
> Same with collaborators and Nazis.
>
No, not quite the same. Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years. So the
statistics is not surprising. What IS surprising is that
even 1 in 100,000 did a good deed. People like
that should be honored by monuments in stone,
something Ukranians are not ever likely to do.
There are still some pathetic Jews left in Ukraine,
so Ukrainians can be happy that they have their Zhids
to hate. I can even argue that without Zhids, Ukrainians
will not be as happy.
>
> > Read some books
> > by the survivors, and you'll see the attitude of Ukranians.
>
> I know the attitude of Ukrainians without reading some fabricated lies like
> one by Wiezenthal.
Well, believe what you want. By the way, real patriots know
better than to ignore the misdeeds of their home countries.
You really should visit Ukraine. Kiev is actually not
polluted as much. Make an attempt to visit Babi Yar,
and read something about the Jews in Ukraine. You will
begin to see clearer. Otherwise I take it your brain is
full of Neo-Nazi garbage published in Canada. I'm
sure you can even buy some of the books in
Ukraine.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> > > as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face
> of
> > > Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
> > >
> >
> > You really have no clue. Kaganovish was nothing more than a rubber stamp.
> > Stalin was the sole initiator of the Ukranian peasant extermination.
>
> And then you can argue what the last name Dzhugashvili means.
> Or that disproportionate number of Jews (to whole population) were Soviet
> leaders and criminals.
Ah, Ukrainians were not less criminals. In fact, Khrushchev was one
heck of a criminal. But this point is irrelevant - these same "Jews"
killed other Jews just as well, so your argument doesn't hold any water.
>
> Jews in Ukraine were never angels. They are partially responsible for the
> anti-Semitism with their attitudes towards Ukrainians/Poles/Russians.
>
Yeah, right. Thats a myth, if you chose to believe it. Jews are ALWAYS
responsible, don't know? "Yesli v krane nema vodi - znachit' vipili zhidi"
This is a classic antisemitic libel. I'm so happy I finally have one
admitted antisemite here. Maybe because Jews were persecuted for
as long as they resided in Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Please
tell me...when did Jews make pogroms on Ukrainians, Poles and Russians?
Englighten me why Jews were hated? Before the Revolution, my friend,
when there were NO Jews in the government? What was the reason
to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
>
> > A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't
> state-sponsored
> > anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
>
> Anti-semitism as Soviet government policy came later, in the 60's.
>
Hahahaha...dude, start with Stalin. It is well documented in US
that Stalin had an anti-Jewish policy from the beginning.
He killed ALL the Jewish bolsheviks, and he assasinated
Jewish leaders, and totally banned Jewish anything.
He almost killed all of the Jewish doctors and almost (1953)
deported all the Jews to Birobidzhan (Siberia), if Beria did not
pison the sucker.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
> > >
> > > Why do you care about the Pope? Are you Catholic?
> > > This visit is truly special for him. He's half-Ukrainian, and he
> adressed
> > > the nation in pure Ukrainian, spoken almost like a native. He said he
> waited
> > > for this moment for so long and finally his dreams came true.
> >
> > This whole Yad Vashem nonsense is the sole fault of Poland
> > and Ukraine. Because of their guilt towards the Jews, anything
> > they can implicate the Jews in is fair game for them. Shows
> > their real "love" of the Jews.
>
> Maybe shows lack of hate for Jews. I can tell you this, while some
> Ukrainians are anti-semite, most don't care. I'm one of them. The one thing
> that makes me angry are the lies attempted to discredit our nation and its
> heroes.
Heroes? Is Stepan Bandera your hero?
How about Khruschev? How about Taras Bulba?
Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so. So why the
heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
JEWISH HEROES?
RPP
>kids. This is called "Ukrainian" attitude. Racist enough for you?
>If you didn't see the pattern, Israel took in a piece
>of art which would surely have NOT been restored
>because in Ukraine nothing gets done if there is
>no "grease" to go along.
The murals WERE being restored. Polish scientists went to the house of
Schulz and were already conserving it. Yad Vashem simply stole it
under the cover of night, like common worthless thieves.
>No, not quite the same. Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
>shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years.
It was Poles who saved thousands of Jews from Chmielnicki. If not for
Poles, there would be no need for Hitler as all of Poland's jews would
have been killed by the cossacks and tatars. It was Poland who gave
Jews a refuge when no one wanted them. England, France, Germany
kicked their jews out. Spain killed their jews. It was Poland who
NEVER tried to convert Jews. Poland was about the only place in Europe
where the inquisition never took place. Poland was the only place in
Europe where jews had their own governments that answered ONLY to the
King. And the jews now spit on Poland. Talk about vile little cowards.
>
>Yeah, right. Thats a myth, if you chose to believe it. Jews are ALWAYS
>responsible, don't know? "Yesli v krane nema vodi - znachit' vipili zhidi"
>This is a classic antisemitic libel. I'm so happy I finally have one
>admitted antisemite here. Maybe because Jews were persecuted for
>as long as they resided in Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Please
>tell me...when did Jews make pogroms on Ukrainians, Poles and Russians?
>Englighten me why Jews were hated? Before the Revolution, my friend,
>when there were NO Jews in the government? What was the reason
>to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
>
Jews performed a very nasty pogrom on Poles in several places. One was
Lwow. You think Jews are so innocent? Read who was the boss of Polish
security forces in the first years of communism when the biggest
terror happened. Yes, it was a Jew. There was infact a large number of
Stalin placed Jews. Why? Stalin knew who would be the most barbarous
in that position. Read the names of Jews who were in charge in Poland
when all the deportations to siberia happened. Read about jews
cooperating with NKVD and selling out their Polish neighbours.
>
>>
>> > A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't
>> state-sponsored
>> > anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
>>
>> Anti-semitism as Soviet government policy came later, in the 60's.
>>
>
>Hahahaha...dude, start with Stalin. It is well documented in US
>that Stalin had an anti-Jewish policy from the beginning.
>He killed ALL the Jewish bolsheviks, and he assasinated
>Jewish leaders, and totally banned Jewish anything.
>He almost killed all of the Jewish doctors and almost (1953)
>deported all the Jews to Birobidzhan (Siberia), if Beria did not
>pison the sucker.
Really? Why did Stalin implement Jews like Berman, Licht, Rozanski etc
in Polish security forces? Stalin didnt hate jews. He hated anyone he
thought was against him, and he killed MANY MANY MANY more Russians
than jews. Stalin wasnt stupid, he knew how to use people. He knoew
that jews would be the most barbarous blood thirsty mosnters and used
them in Poland to implement his regime through terror.
>
>Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
>Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so. So why the
>heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
>JEWISH HEROES?
>
Finny you call Schulz a jew, when he NEVER used yiddish in his
writings. He exclusively used Polish. Jewish hero? You never heard of
him before this.
NoSpAm
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:39:31 -0400, NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> >No, not quite the same. Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
> >shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years.
>
> It was Poles who saved thousands of Jews from Chmielnicki. If not for
> Poles, there would be no need for Hitler as all of Poland's jews would
> have been killed by the cossacks and tatars.
You are simply not making any sense.
"If it wasn't for...". Why the heck should Jews worry
that somebody is going to get them? Poles saving Jews from
Poles? This is total crap, my friend. You just said that
Jews were murdered by Ukrainians and Poles. Next.
>
> snip
> Before the Revolution, my friend,
> >when there were NO Jews in the government? What was the reason
> >to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
> >
>
> Jews performed a very nasty pogrom on Poles in several places. One was
> Lwow.
Ok, evidence? I'm sure I can list you a few hundred pogroms of Jews,
but I'm sure you'd be laboring hard to find evidence of Jewish pogroms.
Regardless, who was the victim and who was the executioner?
I can hear you saying, "the Jews..", am I right? You just keep contradicting
yourself.
> You think Jews are so innocent? Read who was the boss of Polish
> security forces in the first years of communism when the biggest
> terror happened. Yes, it was a Jew.
Yeah? Was it like 100,000 Jews that held the post? No? So why
are you babbling about one bad Jew? There were more than one
bad Jew, and as any nation, Jews had their villains. But
not collectively as a nation against another nation, unlike Poles and Ukrainians
towards Jews.
> There was infact a large number of
> Stalin placed Jews. Why? Stalin knew who would be the most barbarous
> in that position.
Coming from an antisemite like yourself. But the real reason was
because Stalin wanted Jews there to kill OTHER Jews in the
party. THIS way he could blame the Jews for killing some well-known
Party members, which FURTHER enraged the ordinary public.
This is well documented. Which is why you can not explain
why Stalin killed all of THOSE Jews by 1945. Sorry, man, truth hurts.
> Read the names of Jews who were in charge in Poland
> when all the deportations to siberia happened. Read about jews
> cooperating with NKVD and selling out their Polish neighbours.
>
Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
your answer.
> snip
> >Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
> >Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so. So why the
> >heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
> >JEWISH HEROES?
> >
>
> Finny you call Schulz a jew, when he NEVER used yiddish in his
> writings. He exclusively used Polish. Jewish hero? You never heard of
> him before this.
I never did, but Yad Vashem did. And not a single Pole or
Ukrainian did, either. Which proves again, that Poles are
using this as an excuse, as for the past 400 years they've
been using the "Jews killed Christ" excuse to murder
Jews.
Ihor
"Poul" <poul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6de3d876.01062...@posting.google.com...
> "Ihor" <ihor@N*Osp*am_12123_ukr.net> wrote in message
news:<AwvZ6.255959$Z2.29...@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...
> > "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > Big joke,
> > Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> > > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> > Then they are thieves.
> > > Bully for them. We all know how
> > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
>
> Huh? You never heard about Ukrainian looting Jewish homes
> after Nazis sent them to death camps?
I've heard a lot of things. Only some of them are actually true.
>
> > > and how
> > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
> > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in
their
> > houses,
>
> Tiny minority, bless their hearts; as opposed to vast majority who
> happily cooperated with Nazis in extermination of Jews.
Aw please.
>
> >and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly towards the
> > Ukrainians.
>
> Huh? Enlighten us...
Jews had a not-so-friendly attitude towards Ukrainians. Ukrainians didn't
like Jews as they didn't like Poles, the oppressors. For some, the hate for
a specific person transferred to his nation.
Jews always worked for the occupator, the Russians, the Poles, the
Soviets...
>
> > By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> > as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face
of
> > Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
>
> What is is bullshit "Jews in the face of Kaganovich" ?
Let me get this straight, do you not understand my grammar or do you not
know who Lazar Kaganovich is?
> Is some Unkranian who murders people acting for all of them?
>
> Ah, I forgot, you're Ukrainian...
Are you racist?
Ihor
> Ihor wrote:
>
> > "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> > news:3B38BF79...@nospam.org...
> > > Ihor wrote:
> > >
> > > > "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > Big joke,
> > > >
> > > > Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> > > >
> > > > > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> > > >
> > > > Then they are thieves.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
> > > Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
> > > there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
> > > attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu."
> >
> > Racist BS.
> >
>
> Racist? What about Ukrainain's constant love of the
> Jews?
a) Ukrainians don't have any bitter feelings towards Jews anymore.
b) Whatever feeling there was, I'm sure it was mutual and not uncalled-for
completely, which is no justification for it of course.
> Going back to 1600s Ukrainians simply loved to
> kill Jews. For the heck of it.
That's where you're wrong.
> Or, more likely for the plunder,
> and also because nobody protected them. Is that racist too?
Yes, of course, the only difference is that lots of things happened in
history, and you live today, and still are racist.
>
>
> >
> > > They would
> > > have never allowed the mural to be restored, and they
> > > would have destroyed the house when time came.
> >
> > Come on, you're pathetic. It's a work of art, and it would most
definitely
> > be restored, if not for thieves.
> >
>
> Since when did Ukrainians care about art? They can't even
> take care of their own people, much less of art.
This discussion is going nowhere. Not only are you racist, you're not very
intelligent as well.
> There are still people living in Chernobyl area,
There are people who do not want to move from the area. Their lives aren't
immediately endangered and they know of consequences of living exposed to
radiaton. Plus, there are maybe 200 of them in the 30-km no-entry zone.
> and there are hundreds of thousands of people
> who got doses high enough so that their immune
> system is a wreck for the rest of their lives.
> Israel happens to treat people like that. They even
> took in some Ukraininan children to treat. What did
> Ukraine do? They are "angry" about some artwork.
Come on, this is stupid. What does treatment of children from Chornobyl has
to do with stolen artwork?
> They should be kissing Israel's feet for treating their
> kids. This is called "Ukrainian" attitude. Racist enough for you?
Yes, of course. But are you actually trying to prove to me how far your
fascist zionism went? Please don't, spare my time.
> If you didn't see the pattern, Israel took in a piece
> of art which would surely have NOT been restored
> because in Ukraine nothing gets done if there is
> no "grease" to go along. But why pay for some
> lowlife official to MAYBE do anything about it
> (Ukrainians NEVER cared for Jewish art) when
> Yad Vashem can do a much better job at it.
How about getting it legally? Besides, I doubt some Yad Vashem would do
better job than Gov'ts of Ukraine and Poland.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > All this fuss is because Ukranian officials weren't
> > > greased. If Yad Vashem shelled out a few grand to each
> > > of them, I'm sure you would not have heard of this.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Bully for them. We all know how
> > > > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> > > >
> > > > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You need to hit some books and find out.
> >
> > What kind of books? Fascist zionist propaganda? Sorry, don't have those
in
> > Canada, at least not where I shop.
> >
>
> What are you? A freakin' Zhovto-Blakitni Nationalist?
I'm a nationalist, sure.
> Bei Zhidiv i
> Moskaliv?
What does this have to do with Ukrainian nationalism? Perhaps you should
educate yourself as much as your mental capabilities allow you as to what
nationalism actually means.
> Nothing new under the sun. I bet you wouldn't even
> visit Ukraine because you are not so nationalist about Chernobyl.
??
Don't worry, I'm leaving for Ukraine on July 8. Nice two months in Odesa and
Kyiv + surrounding villages.
> As for books, Canada has plenty of Jews you can hate,
But then I don't hate Jews.
> and I'm
> sure you can ask your local rabbi to provide some to you for free,
They don't carry zionist propaganda in sinagogue.
> in case your welfare check is too small.
Don't worry about my financial situation, it's quite good.
>
> >
> > > The Jewish posessions were
> > > definitely looted by Ukranians and Nazis.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > and how
> > > > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the
Jews.
> > > >
> > > > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews
in
> > their
> > > > houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly
towards
> > the
> > > > Ukrainians.
> > >
> > > For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not.
> >
> > Same with collaborators and Nazis.
> >
>
> No, not quite the same.
Statistics?
> Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
> shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years. So the
> statistics is not surprising.
Which statistics? Ones inside your head?
> What IS surprising is that
> even 1 in 100,000 did a good deed. People like
> that should be honored by monuments in stone,
> something Ukranians are not ever likely to do.
> There are still some pathetic Jews left in Ukraine,
I'm sure they and any other normal Jews feel the same way towards you, Mr.
Noname.
> so Ukrainians can be happy that they have their Zhids
> to hate. I can even argue that without Zhids, Ukrainians
> will not be as happy.
>
>
> >
> > > Read some books
> > > by the survivors, and you'll see the attitude of Ukranians.
> >
> > I know the attitude of Ukrainians without reading some fabricated lies
like
> > one by Wiezenthal.
>
> Well, believe what you want.
Wow, jee, thanks.
> By the way, real patriots know
> better than to ignore the misdeeds of their home countries.
Real patriots know better than to spread hatred, bias and fascist zionism
around the Internet, discrediting the vast majority of Jews from Ukraine
which are good people.
> You really should visit Ukraine.
Hasn't changed much since 1998.
> Kiev is actually not
> polluted as much. Make an attempt to visit Babi Yar,
> and read something about the Jews in Ukraine. You will
> begin to see clearer.
I read quite a lot on the subject and consider your advices laughable,
really.
> Otherwise I take it your brain is
> full of Neo-Nazi garbage published in Canada. I'm
> sure you can even buy some of the books in
> Ukraine.
Don't be so sure. We don't know what art is, maybe we burned down bookstores
as Jewish invention.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> > > > as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the
face
> > of
> > > > Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their
compatriots.
> > > >
> > >
> > > You really have no clue. Kaganovish was nothing more than a rubber
stamp.
> > > Stalin was the sole initiator of the Ukranian peasant extermination.
> >
> > And then you can argue what the last name Dzhugashvili means.
> > Or that disproportionate number of Jews (to whole population) were
Soviet
> > leaders and criminals.
>
> Ah, Ukrainians were not less criminals. In fact, Khrushchev was one
> heck of a criminal.
Khruschev was less of a criminal than Stalin, hope you agree with that. And
of course, there were lots of Ukrainians among Soviet elite, but mostly
after WW2.
> But this point is irrelevant - these same "Jews"
> killed other Jews just as well, so your argument doesn't hold any water.
Your generalizations don't hold any water. Your whole post just plain
doesn't hold any water, just as any written by racists and fascists who
don't have the brains to at least try to back up their bullshit more or less
intelligently.
>
>
> >
> > Jews in Ukraine were never angels. They are partially responsible for
the
> > anti-Semitism with their attitudes towards Ukrainians/Poles/Russians.
> >
>
> Yeah, right. Thats a myth, if you chose to believe it. Jews are ALWAYS
> responsible, don't know?
You're just plain impossible to talk to. There's no point.
> "Yesli v krane nema vodi - znachit' vipili zhidi"
That's Odesa joke. It has no relevance to anti-semitism.
> This is a classic antisemitic libel. I'm so happy I finally have one
> admitted antisemite here.
You call me antisemite for no reason but to use it as a straw to grasp on in
this discussion and you're happy about it?
> Maybe because Jews were persecuted for
> as long as they resided in Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Please
> tell me...when did Jews make pogroms on Ukrainians, Poles and Russians?
When did I say they did.
> Englighten me why Jews were hated?
I know some of the reasons the Jews might have been disliked, provided that
the people were quick to make generalizations and not very smart (just like
you):
1. Jewish attitude towards Ukrainians was hostile, majority of Jews
certainly didn't respect us.
2. Jews traditionally owned lots businesses and lended money. The people who
do the latter are bound to be disliked.
> Before the Revolution, my friend,
> when there were NO Jews in the government?
Sure there were. That has no relevance as the main villain inthe government
as far as Ukrainians were concerned were Poles or Russians.
> What was the reason
> to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
Why would I start a discussion like that to avoid some questions?
>
>
> >
> > > A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't
> > state-sponsored
> > > anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
> >
> > Anti-semitism as Soviet government policy came later, in the 60's.
> >
>
> Hahahaha...dude, start with Stalin. It is well documented in US
> that Stalin had an anti-Jewish policy from the beginning.
> He killed ALL the Jewish bolsheviks, and he assasinated
> Jewish leaders, and totally banned Jewish anything.
He didn't do it with Jews only.
> He almost killed all of the Jewish doctors and almost (1953)
> deported all the Jews to Birobidzhan (Siberia),
> if Beria did not
> pison the sucker.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The Pope should not be in that murderous country now.
> > > >
> > > > Why do you care about the Pope? Are you Catholic?
> > > > This visit is truly special for him. He's half-Ukrainian, and he
> > adressed
> > > > the nation in pure Ukrainian, spoken almost like a native. He said
he
> > waited
> > > > for this moment for so long and finally his dreams came true.
> > >
> > > This whole Yad Vashem nonsense is the sole fault of Poland
> > > and Ukraine. Because of their guilt towards the Jews, anything
> > > they can implicate the Jews in is fair game for them. Shows
> > > their real "love" of the Jews.
> >
> > Maybe shows lack of hate for Jews. I can tell you this, while some
> > Ukrainians are anti-semite, most don't care. I'm one of them. The one
thing
> > that makes me angry are the lies attempted to discredit our nation and
its
> > heroes.
>
> Heroes? Is Stepan Bandera your hero?
I respect him as a historical figure, somewhat contriversial perhaps.
> How about Khruschev?
Why would I respect Khruschev?
> How about Taras Bulba?
He's a literary caracter.
>
> Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
> Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so.
I don't know a lot about Schulz and he isn't my hero because he has little
to do with Ukraine.
> So why the
> heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
> JEWISH HEROES?
I'm angry at YAD VASHEM for stealing what doesn't belong to them (Schulz
being Jewish is no reason) and desrtoying a work of art (they "forgot" the
reast of the frescoes and partially destroyed them while removing the
visible ones, or you didn't know?)
>
Ihor
Andrzej Borowiec
relations between the Jews and the Ukrainians have to do with the
theft of Schulz's murals?
RPP
>RPP wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:39:31 -0400, NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote:
>>
>> >No, not quite the same. Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
>> >shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years.
>>
>> It was Poles who saved thousands of Jews from Chmielnicki. If not for
>> Poles, there would be no need for Hitler as all of Poland's jews would
>> have been killed by the cossacks and tatars.
>
>You are simply not making any sense.
Read about the 1648 Cossack-Polish war you ignorant fool.
>"If it wasn't for...". Why the heck should Jews worry
>that somebody is going to get them? Poles saving Jews from
>Poles?
Um, Poles saved jews from cossacks. It seems you are truly ignorant.
> This is total crap, my friend. You just said that
>Jews were murdered by Ukrainians and Poles. Next.
>
HAHA. Are you proud of being an idiot? Look up "Chmielnicki" in any on
line encyclopedia.
>
>>
>> snip
>
>> Before the Revolution, my friend,
>> >when there were NO Jews in the government? What was the reason
>> >to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
>> >
>>
>> Jews performed a very nasty pogrom on Poles in several places. One was
>> Lwow.
>
>Ok, evidence? I'm sure I can list you a few hundred pogroms of Jews,
>but I'm sure you'd be laboring hard to find evidence of Jewish pogroms.
Not really. I could find more than a few. Lwow was one. Grodno was
another. There were countless pogroms by jews during WW2. YEs, WW2.
You see, you werent just victims of that war. You were also criminals.
Jews joined NKVD alligned militias and gave Poles to the soviets, and
also in countless places they killed Poles themselves.
>Regardless, who was the victim and who was the executioner?
>I can hear you saying, "the Jews..", am I right? You just keep contradicting
>yourself.
>
>
>> You think Jews are so innocent? Read who was the boss of Polish
>> security forces in the first years of communism when the biggest
>> terror happened. Yes, it was a Jew.
>
>Yeah? Was it like 100,000 Jews that held the post? No? So why
>are you babbling about one bad Jew?
One bad jew? Sorry, but it wasnt one bad jew. It was a few bad jews
who held the HIGHEST positions. One general is more guilty than a
million soldiers. You jews proved that when you went after only the
very top nazis leaving the regular soldiers alone basically. Afterall,
why all the fuss with mengele when you could have cap[tured any
regular wehrmacht or ss corporal?
> There were more than one
>bad Jew, and as any nation, Jews had their villains.
hehe. Yeah, but you jews have a particular approach to yours. ou want
to get all the villains who harmed you yet you protect those villains
who harmed others. There is a certain jew who was a boss of a
communist concentration camp. He is responsible for thousands of
deaths. Poland wishes to get him back yet Israel doesnt consider
deaths of thousands of Poles a crime. Thats called racism, a jewish
specialty.
> But
>not collectively as a nation against another nation, unlike Poles and Ukrainians
>
>towards Jews.
>
Why not? Because you are the "chosen people"? The only crime commited
in Poland was Poles vs Pole. Specifically King Casimir III who allowed
your people into Poland when all the other countries were getting
smart and kicking you out.
>
>> There was infact a large number of
>> Stalin placed Jews. Why? Stalin knew who would be the most barbarous
>> in that position.
>
>Coming from an antisemite like yourself. But the real reason was
>because Stalin wanted Jews there to kill OTHER Jews in the
>party. THIS way he could blame the Jews for killing some well-known
>Party members, which FURTHER enraged the ordinary public.
>This is well documented. Which is why you can not explain
>why Stalin killed all of THOSE Jews by 1945. Sorry, man, truth hurts.
>
Funny eh? How after the Holocaust there were so little jews overall
but SO MANY in the communist party. And yet you deny jews are
commies:) Thats a funny logic.
>
>> Read the names of Jews who were in charge in Poland
>> when all the deportations to siberia happened. Read about jews
>> cooperating with NKVD and selling out their Polish neighbours.
>>
>
>Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
>Jews for the past 400 years?
They were? Please back this up with proof.
> Should Jews be thankful to
>them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
>your answer.
>
Jews should be thankful for a number of reasons:
1648-54: Chmielnicki and the Cossaks rose up against Poland. They
killed over 100 thousand jews. If not for Poland, this number would
have been 3 or 4 maybe 5 times larger. There would have been no jews
left.
Poland was the only place in Europe where no inquisition happened. No
jews were burned alive like in Spain, or killed or deported like
elsewhere.
Poland was the ONLY place on EARTH where jews had theor own
government. They ruled themselves like a state within a state. Their
leaders answered only to the king.
Poland was the only place where jews were not kicked out of. Spain,
England, Germany, France all kicked jews out at some time or another.
Why do you think there was 3 million jews in Poland, the largest
community on earth?
>
>> snip
>
>> >Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
>> >Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so. So why the
>> >heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
>> >JEWISH HEROES?
>> >
>>
>> Finny you call Schulz a jew, when he NEVER used yiddish in his
>> writings. He exclusively used Polish. Jewish hero? You never heard of
>> him before this.
>
>I never did, but Yad Vashem did. And not a single Pole or
>Ukrainian did, either.
Excuse me? Bruno Schulz was a very famous writer in Poland. He was the
winner of many literary awards, he was one of the MOST famous writers
in inter-war Poland. Again you show your ignorance.
> Which proves again, that Poles are
>using this as an excuse, as for the past 400 years they've
>been using the "Jews killed Christ" excuse to murder
>Jews.
>
Give us dates and references to all these 400 years of pogroms.
Please. Unless you are a LIAR, which you are.
>
RPP
>RPP wrote:
>Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
>Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
>them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
>your answer.
>
Its funny how Jews are so eager to accuse others with lies. Is it
because Jews are the worst racists on earth? Yoiu judge for
yourselves:
The following are famous quotes by Israeli rabbis and
politicians. Read and judge yourself; is Israel a victim
of anti-semitism?
"It is forbidden to be merciful to the Arabs. You must send
missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and
damnable" -- Rabbi Ovadia Yousef, April 2000.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able
to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged
cockroaches in a bottle." -- Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff
of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April
1983.
"One Million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." --
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin of Israel, Feb. 27, 1994
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities,
2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we
would use much more force...." Israeli Prime Minister Ehud
Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs." Menahim
Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon
Kapeliouk, 'Begin and the "Beasts"', New Statesman, 25 June
1982
"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never
existed." -- Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15,
1969.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are
resigned to live here as slaves." -- Chairman Heilbrun of
the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat,
the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"Jewish blood and a goy's [Gentile's] blood are not the
same." -- Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg, Inferring that
killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem
Post, June 19,1989.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the
demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on
that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs
of the territories." --Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli
Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel,
tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli
journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is
nobody to return them to." -- Golda Meir, Prime Minister of
Israel, March 8, 1969
J.M.
> RPP wrote:
> Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
> Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
> them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
> your answer.>
You stupid schmuck,
Poles did not, repeat NOT "murder Jews for the last 400 years". This is pure
bullshit. For hundred of years Poland has been the only Christian country
allowing Jews to settle, treating them decently and upholdning their rights
by royal decree. You can read about it in any history of the Jews. Polish
anti-semitism is a relatively late phenomenon, initially designed and
implemented by the Russian tzarist secret police (the Okhrana).
Even when you enfage in a "discussion" with a Nazi scumbag such as "RPP",
you should at least get your facts straight. Right now you are talking
offensive nonsense and behaving as a total and complete shmuck. The best
thing you could do is to convert to Islam, preferably the Shiite brand.
Please do so. I hate seeing a fellow Jew being so stupid.
J.M.
NoSpAm
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:44:16 -0400, NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote:
>
> >RPP wrote:
>
> >Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
> >Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
> >them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
> >your answer.
> >
>
> Its funny how Jews are so eager to accuse others with lies. Is it
> because Jews are the worst racists on earth? Yoiu judge for
> yourselves:
>
> The following are famous quotes by Israeli rabbis and
> politicians. Read and judge yourself; is Israel a victim
> of anti-semitism?
>
snip crap
What the fuck are you talking about, my friend?
I asked you a clear quesion: WHY did Poles
and and Ukrainians murder Jews for the past 400 years,
and what do you answer? What happened after
1917 is clear as water, but what you haven't
explained to me is what happened before.
You see, your explanation will put things in their
right places, and all that happened after 1917 can easily
be explained.
NoSpAm
> "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:3B39E213...@nospam.org...
> > Ihor wrote:
> >
> > > "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3B38BF79...@nospam.org...
> > > > Ihor wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "S A Farber" <shl...@iafrica.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3b365...@news1.mweb.co.za...
> > > > > > Big joke,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yad Vashem or Schulz?
> > > > >
> > > > > > if Yad Vashem did steal the mural
> > > > >
> > > > > Then they are thieves.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
> > > > Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
> > > > there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
> > > > attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu."
> > >
> > > Racist BS.
> > >
> >
> > Racist? What about Ukrainain's constant love of the
> > Jews?
>
> a) Ukrainians don't have any bitter feelings towards Jews anymore.
False. Ok, fine, I give up. I was born there.
"Ukrainians" in Ukraine = 1/2 Russians, 1/2 Ukrainians.
The anti-semitism there can only be rivaled by the Russian
antisemitism.
>
> b) Whatever feeling there was, I'm sure it was mutual and not uncalled-for
> completely, which is no justification for it of course.
Right. Kossacs didn't butcher Jews in 1600's (and well into the
20th century). Even Russian and Ukrainian
writers mention this as a matter of fact, and a well-known fact at that.
I can tell you which books have it, too.
>
>
> > Going back to 1600s Ukrainians simply loved to
> > kill Jews. For the heck of it.
>
> That's where you're wrong.
I didn't mean for the "heck of it". But the "Christ-killers" libel
was the reason. Check it out - this is a well-known fact.
Ask Ukrainians who live in Ukraine what they think of Jews.
You'll hear everything I mentioned.
>
>
> > Or, more likely for the plunder,
> > and also because nobody protected them. Is that racist too?
>
> Yes, of course, the only difference is that lots of things happened in
> history, and you live today, and still are racist.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > They would
> > > > have never allowed the mural to be restored, and they
> > > > would have destroyed the house when time came.
> > >
> > > Come on, you're pathetic. It's a work of art, and it would most
> definitely
> > > be restored, if not for thieves.
> > >
> >
> > Since when did Ukrainians care about art? They can't even
> > take care of their own people, much less of art.
>
> This discussion is going nowhere. Not only are you racist, you're not very
> intelligent as well.
>
You are not competent enough to judge my intelligence.
>
> > There are still people living in Chernobyl area,
>
> There are people who do not want to move from the area. Their lives aren't
> immediately endangered and they know of consequences of living exposed to
> radiaton. Plus, there are maybe 200 of them in the 30-km no-entry zone.
>
False, False, False. They do NOT understand risks. And lets not get into
Chernobyl debate. I just got a book published in Ukraine, which will
burst all of your bubbles in seconds. I can give you the ICBN number if
you wish. Fascinating facts.
>
> > and there are hundreds of thousands of people
> > who got doses high enough so that their immune
> > system is a wreck for the rest of their lives.
> > Israel happens to treat people like that. They even
> > took in some Ukraininan children to treat. What did
> > Ukraine do? They are "angry" about some artwork.
>
> Come on, this is stupid. What does treatment of children from Chornobyl has
> to do with stolen artwork?
No, not stupid. Ukraine has no right to complain about how bad
Israel is after all that the Jews in Ukraine have DONE for Ukraine.
And after all that Israel has done for Ukraine. I'm sure you understand
that the Ukrainians could live just fine without the "artwork", just like
they can live great without Jews.
>
>
> > They should be kissing Israel's feet for treating their
> > kids. This is called "Ukrainian" attitude. Racist enough for you?
>
> Yes, of course. But are you actually trying to prove to me how far your
> fascist zionism went? Please don't, spare my time.
>
> > If you didn't see the pattern, Israel took in a piece
> > of art which would surely have NOT been restored
> > because in Ukraine nothing gets done if there is
> > no "grease" to go along. But why pay for some
> > lowlife official to MAYBE do anything about it
> > (Ukrainians NEVER cared for Jewish art) when
> > Yad Vashem can do a much better job at it.
>
> How about getting it legally? Besides, I doubt some Yad Vashem would do
> better job than Gov'ts of Ukraine and Poland.
>
Legally? You talk like you don't know that the government of Ukraine
is full of thugs, just like in Moscow. The only "legal" thing is what
they can do, not what the citizens can do, as if you haven't read
about what is going on there right now. Besides, the "government"
would have surely refused. It is beurocratic to the core, and
a lot of money would have been wasted.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > All this fuss is because Ukranian officials weren't
> > > > greased. If Yad Vashem shelled out a few grand to each
> > > > of them, I'm sure you would not have heard of this.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bully for them. We all know how
> > > > > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> > > > >
> > > > > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You need to hit some books and find out.
> > >
> > > What kind of books? Fascist zionist propaganda? Sorry, don't have those
> in
> > > Canada, at least not where I shop.
> > >
> >
> > What are you? A freakin' Zhovto-Blakitni Nationalist?
>
> I'm a nationalist, sure.
>
> > Bei Zhidiv i
> > Moskaliv?
>
> What does this have to do with Ukrainian nationalism? Perhaps you should
> educate yourself as much as your mental capabilities allow you as to what
> nationalism actually means.
>
Hehehe, this is the core of Ukrainian nationalism after 1917. You've
never been to Ukraine, or read the literature that came out of there,
have you? Do you REALLY think I'm imagining all of this?
I can certainly enlighten you about Ukrainian history after 1917.
Especially what happened to the Jews of Ukraine, before Ukrainians
knew about Bolsheviks, and before Bolsheviks came to Ukraine.
You just ask - I will gladly share with you some interesting
historical information, but you don't seem ready to accept it.
>
> > Nothing new under the sun. I bet you wouldn't even
> > visit Ukraine because you are not so nationalist about Chernobyl.
>
> ??
>
> Don't worry, I'm leaving for Ukraine on July 8. Nice two months in Odesa and
> Kyiv + surrounding villages.
>
Oh, I see...how about visiting the ARCHIVES, for once?
I hope you can read Russian, because most Ukrainians
couldn't read or write before 1917.
>
> > As for books, Canada has plenty of Jews you can hate,
>
> But then I don't hate Jews.
>
> > and I'm
> > sure you can ask your local rabbi to provide some to you for free,
>
> They don't carry zionist propaganda in sinagogue.
I've heard everything you can think of already. Save your breath.
>
>
> > in case your welfare check is too small.
>
> Don't worry about my financial situation, it's quite good.
>
> >
> > >
> > > > The Jewish posessions were
> > > > definitely looted by Ukranians and Nazis.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > and how
> > > > > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the
> Jews.
> > > > >
> > > > > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews
> in
> > > their
> > > > > houses, and this considering that Jews weren't exactly friendly
> towards
> > > the
> > > > > Ukrainians.
> > > >
> > > > For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not.
> > >
> > > Same with collaborators and Nazis.
> > >
> >
> > No, not quite the same.
>
> Statistics?
>
Well, you'll go to Ukraine, visit the archives and let me know.
I'd be curious as well.
>
> > Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
> > shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years. So the
> > statistics is not surprising.
>
> Which statistics? Ones inside your head?
Ok, this is well documented. I can easily find this for you.
>
>
> > What IS surprising is that
> > even 1 in 100,000 did a good deed. People like
> > that should be honored by monuments in stone,
> > something Ukranians are not ever likely to do.
> > There are still some pathetic Jews left in Ukraine,
>
> I'm sure they and any other normal Jews feel the same way towards you, Mr.
> Noname.
>
They are business people, and they are not really Jews, but Russians
and Ukrainians hate them anyway. Did you know that some
of the richest businessmen in Russia and Ukraine are Jews?
>
> > so Ukrainians can be happy that they have their Zhids
> > to hate. I can even argue that without Zhids, Ukrainians
> > will not be as happy.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Read some books
> > > > by the survivors, and you'll see the attitude of Ukranians.
> > >
> > > I know the attitude of Ukrainians without reading some fabricated lies
> like
> > > one by Wiezenthal.
> >
> > Well, believe what you want.
>
> Wow, jee, thanks.
>
> > By the way, real patriots know
> > better than to ignore the misdeeds of their home countries.
>
> Real patriots know better than to spread hatred, bias and fascist zionism
> around the Internet, discrediting the vast majority of Jews from Ukraine
> which are good people.
>
The vast majority of Jews from Ukraine are 1) Dead 2) Gone to Israel
3) Assimilated. The rest is a tiny minority which stayed back for
various reasons. The Jews in Ukraine, Poland and Russia do not
belong there. They don't belong in Europe with its entrentched
anti-semitism either.
You haven't disproven anything. I simply don't see a point
for me to locate archival documents that are referenced
in the books I read. You can easily go to Kiev and check
out the archives yourself.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Jews in Ukraine were never angels. They are partially responsible for
> the
> > > anti-Semitism with their attitudes towards Ukrainians/Poles/Russians.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, right. Thats a myth, if you chose to believe it. Jews are ALWAYS
> > responsible, don't know?
>
> You're just plain impossible to talk to. There's no point.
>
> > "Yesli v krane nema vodi - znachit' vipili zhidi"
>
> That's Odesa joke. It has no relevance to anti-semitism.
>
Well, too bad you don't think so.
>
> > This is a classic antisemitic libel. I'm so happy I finally have one
> > admitted antisemite here.
>
> You call me antisemite for no reason but to use it as a straw to grasp on in
> this discussion and you're happy about it?
>
I'm sorry. You are NOT antisemite. You simply can't put together
all the facts. But that's ok. If you were sitting right next to me,
I'd be able to swamp you with sources. I will make an effort to post
a few links for you to see. I'm sure you can help if you wish to make
your point, and post some references of your own. This will
be entertaining.
>
> > Maybe because Jews were persecuted for
> > as long as they resided in Ukraine, Poland and Russia. Please
> > tell me...when did Jews make pogroms on Ukrainians, Poles and Russians?
>
> When did I say they did.
>
Sorry, some idiot said that.
>
> > Englighten me why Jews were hated?
>
> I know some of the reasons the Jews might have been disliked, provided that
> the people were quick to make generalizations and not very smart (just like
> you):
>
> 1. Jewish attitude towards Ukrainians was hostile, majority of Jews
> certainly didn't respect us.
Before 1917? Why would that be? Give me some facts, please.
>
> 2. Jews traditionally owned lots businesses and lended money. The people who
> do the latter are bound to be disliked.
>
Ah, ok, this is the origins of antisemitism. You know why?
Because Christians did not allow the Jews to own ANY land.
You still think the Jews are to blame for that?
>
> > Before the Revolution, my friend,
> > when there were NO Jews in the government?
>
> Sure there were. That has no relevance as the main villain inthe government
> as far as Ukrainians were concerned were Poles or Russians.
>
Name ONE Jew in the government. There weren't any before Revolution.
Unless you tell me of a Jew who supported Jews, and who was in
the government, your assertion is false. In Poland especially.
>
> > What was the reason
> > to hate Jews? And don't avoid the question.
>
> Why would I start a discussion like that to avoid some questions?
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > A Jew was kept by Stalin to show the world that there wasn't
> > > state-sponsored
> > > > anti-semitism in USSR. Stalin succeeded.
> > >
> > > Anti-semitism as Soviet government policy came later, in the 60's.
> > >
> >
> > Hahahaha...dude, start with Stalin. It is well documented in US
> > that Stalin had an anti-Jewish policy from the beginning.
> > He killed ALL the Jewish bolsheviks, and he assasinated
> > Jewish leaders, and totally banned Jewish anything.
>
> He didn't do it with Jews only.
>
Yes, but ALL weren't part of politburo. Jews were disproportionately
represented among the Bolsheviks for obvious reasons (i.e.
to escape from ghettoes where they were confined in Russia
and Poland and Ukraine). Stalin removed them ALL except
for an anti-Jew Kaganovich, who was against Judaism
and against everything Jews stood for, i.e. he was an
anti-semite.
Thats true, but he represents the Cossacs,
and I bet you remember how in that same
book the Cossacs go to kill some Jews.
I can even try to find the page for you.
>
> >
> > Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
> > Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so.
>
> I don't know a lot about Schulz and he isn't my hero because he has little
> to do with Ukraine.
>
Great, now you admitted it. So why whould Ukrainians complain
when Yad Vashem took the mural? (ie. complain in THIS particular
way, by saing that he was their national writer, etc., which is
surely nonsense. He was a private citizen, and Yad Vashem
bought an artwork from other private citizens).
>
> > So why the
> > heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
> > JEWISH HEROES?
>
> I'm angry at YAD VASHEM for stealing what doesn't belong to them (Schulz
> being Jewish is no reason) and desrtoying a work of art (they "forgot" the
> reast of the frescoes and partially destroyed them while removing the
> visible ones, or you didn't know?)
>
> >
The paragraph above says it all.
I really have to start posting some references for you. Give me
a few days.
J.M.
> RPP wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:44:16 -0400, NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote:
> >
> > >RPP wrote:
> >
> > >Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
> > >Jews for the past 400 years?
You stupid schmuck,
Ihor
> Ihor wrote:
> > > > > Consider what Ukranians would have done with that mural.
> > > > > Any idea? Oh, I know! They'd just paint over it and say
> > > > > there was nothing there. You know the Ukranian
> > > > > attitude? "Scho ne z'im to ponadkucuu."
> > > >
> > > > Racist BS.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Racist? What about Ukrainain's constant love of the
> > > Jews?
> >
> > a) Ukrainians don't have any bitter feelings towards Jews anymore.
>
> False. Ok, fine, I give up. I was born there.
You think I didn't know that?
I can see your love for your homeland.
> "Ukrainians" in Ukraine = 1/2 Russians, 1/2 Ukrainians.
And Jews in Ukraine are 1/2 Germans 1/2 Palestinians :)
> The anti-semitism there can only be rivaled by the Russian
> antisemitism.
When did you last visit Ukraine? 1940's?
Maybe you don't know how most of Jews got to Ukraine? They were expelled
from western European countries.
>
>
> >
> > b) Whatever feeling there was, I'm sure it was mutual and not
uncalled-for
> > completely, which is no justification for it of course.
>
> Right. Kossacs didn't butcher Jews in 1600's (and well into the
> 20th century).
Cossacks did not exist in 20th century...
As for Khmelnytsky's "pogroms", the killings of Poles and Jews were the
killings of oppressors. The two sides were not ethnically divided either,
there were plenty of Jews and even more Poles in Cossack army and a lot of
Ukrainians in Polish army. The murders were not racially or ethnically
motivated, but targetted specific people.
Perhaps this website will help you understand my point of view, provided you
actually read it:
http://www.ukar.org/weinry01.shtml
> Even Russian and Ukrainian
> writers mention this as a matter of fact, and a well-known fact at that.
> I can tell you which books have it, too.
Go.
>
> >
> >
> > > Going back to 1600s Ukrainians simply loved to
> > > kill Jews. For the heck of it.
> >
> > That's where you're wrong.
>
> I didn't mean for the "heck of it". But the "Christ-killers" libel
> was the reason. Check it out - this is a well-known fact.
Lots of these "well known facts" turn out to be slander and calumny.
> Ask Ukrainians who live in Ukraine what they think of Jews.
I'll find some antisemites, sure. But majority won't care what nationality
you are.
> > > Since when did Ukrainians care about art? They can't even
> > > take care of their own people, much less of art.
> >
> > This discussion is going nowhere. Not only are you racist, you're not
very
> > intelligent as well.
> >
>
> You are not competent enough to judge my intelligence.
My judgment is my business. I'm expressing what I think of you, you're free
to say what you think of me.
>
> >
> > > There are still people living in Chernobyl area,
> >
> > There are people who do not want to move from the area. Their lives
aren't
> > immediately endangered and they know of consequences of living exposed
to
> > radiaton. Plus, there are maybe 200 of them in the 30-km no-entry zone.
> >
>
> False, False, False.
Try to repeat it more.
> They do NOT understand risks.
They were advised to move, they read and heard about the people suffering
from the effects of radiation. Most of those people are elderly pensioners,
who don't have a whole lot longer to live and want to die on their land, the
land of their fathers.
> And lets not get into
> Chernobyl debate.
For a debate, each of the arguing sides is supposed to have basic knowledge
on the subject.
> I just got a book published in Ukraine, which will
> burst all of your bubbles in seconds.
There aren't any bubbles to burst, I've read quite a lot on the subject.
> I can give you the ICBN number if
> you wish. Fascinating facts.
Go.
>
> >
> > > and there are hundreds of thousands of people
> > > who got doses high enough so that their immune
> > > system is a wreck for the rest of their lives.
> > > Israel happens to treat people like that. They even
> > > took in some Ukraininan children to treat. What did
> > > Ukraine do? They are "angry" about some artwork.
> >
> > Come on, this is stupid. What does treatment of children from Chornobyl
has
> > to do with stolen artwork?
>
> No, not stupid. Ukraine has no right to complain about how bad
> Israel is after all that the Jews in Ukraine have DONE for Ukraine.
That's pathetic. Maybe after all the Serbs in US did for US they have no
right to complain about the ethnic cleansing that went on in Kosovo?
> And after all that Israel has done for Ukraine. I'm sure you understand
> that the Ukrainians could live just fine without the "artwork",
What do you think we are, a bunch of illiterate farmers?
> just like
> they can live great without Jews.
We can do without Jews like you, but ones with positive attitudes that
actually contribute something are more than welcome.
> > > If you didn't see the pattern, Israel took in a piece
> > > of art which would surely have NOT been restored
> > > because in Ukraine nothing gets done if there is
> > > no "grease" to go along. But why pay for some
> > > lowlife official to MAYBE do anything about it
> > > (Ukrainians NEVER cared for Jewish art) when
> > > Yad Vashem can do a much better job at it.
> >
> > How about getting it legally? Besides, I doubt some Yad Vashem would do
> > better job than Gov'ts of Ukraine and Poland.
> >
>
> Legally? You talk like you don't know that the government of Ukraine
> is full of thugs, just like in Moscow.
That doesn't mean the frescoes couldn't be taken legally, provided the Yad
Vashem actually could prove their rights on the frescoes. Since there's no
way they can, they simply stole them.
> The only "legal" thing is what
> they can do, not what the citizens can do, as if you haven't read
> about what is going on there right now. Besides, the "government"
> would have surely refused.
Because Yad Vashem has no rights to the frescoes. Ukr. gov't would never
refuse Polish museums to even take the frescoes to Poland, where they
undoubtedly belong.
> It is beurocratic to the core, and
> a lot of money would have been wasted.
What part of "theft is illegal" don't you get?
> > > Bei Zhidiv i
> > > Moskaliv?
> >
> > What does this have to do with Ukrainian nationalism? Perhaps you should
> > educate yourself as much as your mental capabilities allow you as to
what
> > nationalism actually means.
> >
>
> Hehehe, this is the core of Ukrainian nationalism after 1917. You've
> never been to Ukraine,
I was born in Odesa and immigrated to Canada in 1998. I am coming back every
summer, for July-August.
> or read the literature that came out of there,
> have you?
That's mostly what I read.
> Do you REALLY think I'm imagining all of this?
I think you're believing the propaganda without any thinking.
> I can certainly enlighten you about Ukrainian history after 1917.
Don't even try. I surely know more about our history than you do, judging
from what I've read so far.
> Especially what happened to the Jews of Ukraine, before Ukrainians
> knew about Bolsheviks, and before Bolsheviks came to Ukraine.
> You just ask - I will gladly share with you some interesting
> historical information, but you don't seem ready to accept it.
Go ahead with your information, but please, stick only to Jewish history,
anything else is very very well known to me.
> > Don't worry, I'm leaving for Ukraine on July 8. Nice two months in Odesa
and
> > Kyiv + surrounding villages.
> >
>
> Oh, I see...how about visiting the ARCHIVES, for once?
For once means that I should spend all of my time there or what?
I'll visit an archive, provided it's accessible to public and the topic is
interesting.
> I hope you can read Russian,
Fluently.
> because most Ukrainians
> couldn't read or write before 1917.
More Ukrainians could read and write before 1917 than the Russians, in
percentage, surely before XIX century, and maybe further.
> > > > > For 1 Ukranian who did this, 100,000 did not.
> > > >
> > > > Same with collaborators and Nazis.
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, not quite the same.
> >
> > Statistics?
> >
>
> Well, you'll go to Ukraine, visit the archives and let me know.
Ha.
> I'd be curious as well.
Then find out before jumping to conclusions.
>
>
> >
> > > Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
> > > shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years. So the
> > > statistics is not surprising.
> >
> > Which statistics? Ones inside your head?
>
> Ok, this is well documented. I can easily find this for you.
Then do so. I'm not sure what statistics you're going to look for, the
statistics for hatred?
> > > What IS surprising is that
> > > even 1 in 100,000 did a good deed. People like
> > > that should be honored by monuments in stone,
> > > something Ukranians are not ever likely to do.
> > > There are still some pathetic Jews left in Ukraine,
> >
> > I'm sure they and any other normal Jews feel the same way towards you,
Mr.
> > Noname.
> >
>
> They are business people, and they are not really Jews,
Please. A name like Eduard Gurvitz (former mayor of Odesa, the best one it
had in a long time, maybe ever) is not Jewish?
> but Russians
> and Ukrainians hate them anyway. Did you know that some
> of the richest businessmen in Russia and Ukraine are Jews?
Some of the richest oligarchs and mafiosis in Ukraine are Jews.
> > > By the way, real patriots know
> > > better than to ignore the misdeeds of their home countries.
> >
> > Real patriots know better than to spread hatred, bias and fascist
zionism
> > around the Internet, discrediting the vast majority of Jews from Ukraine
> > which are good people.
> >
>
> The vast majority of Jews from Ukraine are 1) Dead
> 2) Gone to Israel
Also to US, Canada and so on.
> 3) Assimilated.
Maybe so, but I was talking about those who immigrated to other countries
and are more aware of their heritage.
> The rest is a tiny minority which stayed back for
> various reasons. The Jews in Ukraine, Poland and Russia do not
> belong there. They don't belong in Europe with its entrentched
> anti-semitism either.
Where do they belong then?
> > > But this point is irrelevant - these same "Jews"
> > > killed other Jews just as well, so your argument doesn't hold any
water.
> >
> > Your generalizations don't hold any water. Your whole post just plain
> > doesn't hold any water, just as any written by racists and fascists who
> > don't have the brains to at least try to back up their bullshit more or
less
> > intelligently.
> >
>
> You haven't disproven anything.
I'm not trying to prove anything to you. IMO so far, you're pretty much
hopless.
> I simply don't see a point
> for me to locate archival documents that are referenced
> in the books I read.
Why not try to tell me the names of the books? And some of your allegations
are simply racist BS, what credible books write that?
> > > "Yesli v krane nema vodi - znachit' vipili zhidi"
> >
> > That's Odesa joke. It has no relevance to anti-semitism.
> >
>
> Well, too bad you don't think so.
It's a verse from a "folk song" written by Odessit Jews, who have quite a
sense of humour.
>
>
> >
> > > This is a classic antisemitic libel. I'm so happy I finally have one
> > > admitted antisemite here.
> >
> > You call me antisemite for no reason but to use it as a straw to grasp
on in
> > this discussion and you're happy about it?
> >
>
> I'm sorry. You are NOT antisemite. You simply can't put together
> all the facts.
Facts can be interpreted in many ways. You, for example, choose to believe
that the fact that Jews were killed by Khmelnytsky's Cossacks during the
Uprising against Poles means there was ethnically motivated genocide. I
believe it was simply rage against the oppressors, no matter the
nationality, which is proved by the fact that there were no clear ethnic
boundaries between the sides of the conflict. Did you know that many Jews
were Cossacks? That many Jews aided Khmelnytsky? Did you know that a lot of
Cossacks were Poles? Did you know that Jarema Vyshnevetsky, the murderer of
thousands of Ukrainians and a person who hated them more than anything was
himself a Ukrainian?
> But that's ok. If you were sitting right next to me,
> I'd be able to swamp you with sources. I will make an effort to post
> a few links for you to see. I'm sure you can help if you wish to make
> your point, and post some references of your own.
I did post some examples/sources above. And asked you for a couple,
something yet to come from you.
> > > Englighten me why Jews were hated?
> >
> > I know some of the reasons the Jews might have been disliked, provided
that
> > the people were quick to make generalizations and not very smart (just
like
> > you):
> >
> > 1. Jewish attitude towards Ukrainians was hostile, majority of Jews
> > certainly didn't respect us.
>
> Before 1917?
And after that to, for which you're a great example. After reading your
racist viewpoint on Ukraine, even my perception of Ukrainian Jews shifted a
bit. What can you say about not very educated people of 1940's, living in
some godforesaken village in Halychyna?
> Why would that be?
There was mutual hostility. Ukrainians disliked Jews as foreigners who
control the finances and who don't have very good attitudes towards them,
Jews disliked Ukrainians as an answer to being disliked and many thought
Ukrainians were inferior.
> Give me some facts, please.
What would those be? Examples?
> > 2. Jews traditionally owned lots businesses and lended money. The people
who
> > do the latter are bound to be disliked.
> >
>
> Ah, ok, this is the origins of antisemitism.
I know it is.
> You know why?
> Because Christians did not allow the Jews to own ANY land.
But they did.
> You still think the Jews are to blame for that?
I don't dislike Jews for owning businesses in Ukraine, or lending money (in
the past). I don't think that bitter feelings towards one man or a couple of
people of the same nationality should become bitter feelings towards the
nationality itself. And I don't believe in judging people based on their
ethnic origin either.
> > > Before the Revolution, my friend,
> > > when there were NO Jews in the government?
> >
> > Sure there were. That has no relevance as the main villain inthe
government
> > as far as Ukrainians were concerned were Poles or Russians.
> >
>
> Name ONE Jew in the government. There weren't any before Revolution.
> Unless you tell me of a Jew who supported Jews, and who was in
> the government, your assertion is false. In Poland especially.
I admit I don't know of any, but surely there were enough Jews in the
country...
> > > How about Taras Bulba?
> >
> > He's a literary caracter.
>
> Thats true, but he represents the Cossacs,
> and I bet you remember how in that same
> book the Cossacs go to kill some Jews.
> I can even try to find the page for you.
I don't really remember, I've read it as a kid...
> > > Is the Jewish writer/artist whose mural Yad Vashem took to
> > > Israel your hero? I wouldn't think so.
> >
> > I don't know a lot about Schulz and he isn't my hero because he has
little
> > to do with Ukraine.
> >
>
> Great, now you admitted it. So why whould Ukrainians complain
> when Yad Vashem took the mural?
Because Yad Vashem has no rights for it. The frescoes should be restored and
put in museum in Poland, as he is only ethnically Jewish, but written in
Polish and was otherwise Polish.
> (ie. complain in THIS particular
> way, by saing that he was their national writer, etc., which is
> surely nonsense.
Where was that said?
> He was a private citizen, and Yad Vashem
> bought an artwork from other private citizens).
Which it had no right to do, in accordance to laws of Ukraine. And for which
it would never be granted permission simply because there's no connection
between the two that would allow such "inheritance".
--
-----------------------------------------------
Ihor
***
Цей корабель виготовили з людських тiл.
Геть усе: палуба, трюм, щогли
I навiть машинне вiддiлення.
Морока була з обшивкою -
особливо погано держали воду мiсця,
де попадалися людськi голови.
Коли утворювалася потужна водотеча,
дiру затикали кимось з екiпажу,
в той час як решта
шукала щасливоi пристанi
у вiдкритому морi.
Vasyl' Stus
Ihor
"Andrzej Borowiec" <an...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a1ccd30f.01062...@posting.google.com...
> Could somebody explain to me what the Pope's pedigree or historical
> relations between the Jews and the Ukrainians have to do with the
> theft of Schulz's murals?
Ask Mr. Farber (aka Nospam). He started the verbal diarrhea against
Ukrainians and Poles in defence of Yad Vashem (I guess).
RPP
>snip crap
>
>What the fuck are you talking about, my friend?
>I asked you a clear quesion: WHY did Poles
>and and Ukrainians murder Jews for the past 400 years,
>and what do you answer?
I asked you to provide dates and places of such murders. You obviously
couldnt.
> What happened after
>1917 is clear as water, but what you haven't
>explained to me is what happened before.
>You see, your explanation will put things in their
>right places, and all that happened after 1917 can easily
>be explained.
Really? Jews creatig the most bestial savage and murderous system in
history can be "explained"? Explained by what? Give me some examples.
>
>
>
RPP
>Great, now you admitted it. So why whould Ukrainians complain
>when Yad Vashem took the mural? (ie. complain in THIS particular
>way, by saing that he was their national writer, etc., which is
>surely nonsense. He was a private citizen, and Yad Vashem
>bought an artwork from other private citizens).
>
Yad Vashem stole those artworks. First, they did what nazis couldnt do
and destroyed them. Yes, destroyed them. By tearing out a segment they
destroyed what they left behind. Then, literally under the cover of
night, they smuggled them out of Ukraine. TOTALLY ignoring all
agreements signed by Israel about not removing artwork from a country.
They also broke Ukrainian law when they took those murals from
Ukraine. But ultimately they showed how much respect they have for
others. i.e NONE. And how much respect they deserve. i.e. NONE.
THIEVES dont deserve any respect. And Yad Vashem are thieves.
>>
>> > So why the
>> > heck are you angry at Jews for PROTECTING
>> > JEWISH HEROES?
>>
>> I'm angry at YAD VASHEM for stealing what doesn't belong to them (Schulz
>> being Jewish is no reason) and desrtoying a work of art (they "forgot" the
>> reast of the frescoes and partially destroyed them while removing the
>> visible ones, or you didn't know?)
>>
>> >
>
>The paragraph above says it all.
>I really have to start posting some references for you. Give me
>a few days.
>
You have to get educated first idiot.
jer...@newsguy.com
>
>Really? Jews creatig the most bestial savage and murderous system in
>history can be "explained"?
You are wrong, Lech.
Poles created that system. Not "Jews". Poles.
The infamous NKVD (initially called CheKa) has been created by a Polish
nobleman, one Feliks Dzierzynski.
I agree however with that "bestial savage" bit.
J.M.
WaRR
NoSpAm wrote in message <3B3A378F...@nospam.org>...
>RPP wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:39:31 -0400, NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote:
>>
>> >No, not quite the same. Ukrainians, like their cousins, Poles,
>> >shared the hatred of the Jews for the past 400 years.
>>
>> It was Poles who saved thousands of Jews from Chmielnicki. If not for
>> Poles, there would be no need for Hitler as all of Poland's jews would
>> have been killed by the cossacks and tatars.
>
>You are simply not making any sense.
>"If it wasn't for...". Why the heck should Jews worry
>that somebody is going to get them? Poles saving Jews from
>Poles? This is total crap, my friend. You just said that
>Jews were murdered by Ukrainians and Poles. Next.
What do you mean Poles saving jews from Poles ? RPP
clearly stated that jews were being killed by Chmielnicki
(ukrainian) and cossacs and tatars. Do you have a
problem understanding ?
>> You think Jews are so innocent? Read who was the boss of Polish
>> security forces in the first years of communism when the biggest
>> terror happened. Yes, it was a Jew.
>
>Yeah? Was it like 100,000 Jews that held the post? No? So why
>are you babbling about one bad Jew? There were more than one
>bad Jew, and as any nation, Jews had their villains. But
>not collectively as a nation against another nation, unlike Poles and
Ukrainians
>towards Jews.
Even though jews were only 1-2% of total population of Poland after
the war, over 90% of top TORTURERS and KILLERS in secret
police apparatus were jews !!!!
Today jews are 2% of population of Los Angeles yet over 62% of
all top jobs in Hollywood are held by jews !!!!
>> There was infact a large number of
>> Stalin placed Jews. Why? Stalin knew who would be the most barbarous
>> in that position.
>
>Coming from an antisemite like yourself. But the real reason was
>because Stalin wanted Jews there to kill OTHER Jews in the
>party. THIS way he could blame the Jews for killing some well-known
>Party members, which FURTHER enraged the ordinary public.
>This is well documented. Which is why you can not explain
>why Stalin killed all of THOSE Jews by 1945. Sorry, man, truth hurts.
You are an idiot. Stalin installed jews because he knew jews were
the most barbarous and would gladly do anything for the sake of
communism. Most victims of jews were Polish patriots and ordinary
public, intelligentsia. Truth hurts indeed. Jews embraced
communism before the war and after the war.
>> Read the names of Jews who were in charge in Poland
>> when all the deportations to siberia happened. Read about jews
>> cooperating with NKVD and selling out their Polish neighbours.
>>
>
>Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
>Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
>them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
>your answer.
Answer why did jews organized deportation of people to
Siberia ? Why did they kill and torture ? WHY ????????
Poland gave them shelter from twelve century onwards.
They flocked to Poland from entire Europe, persecuted
in every country. They never assimilated, they always
had their GETTOs in every town. Why do you think Poland
had the largest jewish population in 1939 ? Would jews
had lived there if Poles were killing them like you are telling
us ?
>> Finny you call Schulz a jew, when he NEVER used yiddish in his
>> writings. He exclusively used Polish. Jewish hero? You never heard of
>> him before this.
>
>I never did, but Yad Vashem did. And not a single Pole or
>Ukrainian did, either. Which proves again, that Poles are
>using this as an excuse, as for the past 400 years they've
>been using the "Jews killed Christ" excuse to murder
>Jews.
What do you mean not a single Pole heard of Schulz ?
How do you know that ? There are many places in
Poland where people study work of Schulz. Poland
sent a group of experts to examine his works in
present day Ukraine. Israel sent bunch of thieves,
who ripped out Schulz's frescos from the walls thus
destroying them completely. They quietly smuggled
them out of Ukraine - bunch of thieves.
WaRR
Jerzy Pawlowski
WaRR <wa...@ojczyzna.org> wrote:
> There are many places in Poland where people study
> work of Schulz.
Yes, like for example in Polish high schools. I
was taught that Szulz was a Polish writer. Now
Szulz has been judaized.
--
"Imbéciles réveillez vous!"
Jerzy Pawlowski (j...@panix.com)
NoSpAm
Hello Mr. JM,
If you are so knowledgeable, would you care to post some
links and explain why the negative attitude towards the Jews
was present in both the government and among the common
people.
NoSpAm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08386a.htm (Catholic encyclopedia)
In 1648, the Polish Jews began themselves to be persecuted by the
Cossacks of the Ukraine who invaded Poland and were victorious in three
successive
campaigns. They were next subjected to the disastrous invasions of the Russians
and the
Swedes. It is estimated that within ten years (1648-1658), more than 200,000
Jews were
slaughtered in the Polish dominions. In consequence, the surviving Jews of
Poland were
reduced to a condition of extreme poverty and abjection from which the Polish
kings of the
second part of the seventeenth century earnestly strove to extricate them.
I appologize for saying that it was the Poles who did the killing. It was
definitely
NOT the Poles, as one can see.
http://cyberroad.com/poland/jews.html
Jews in the Battle for Polish Independence
Jews actively participated in the national uprisings which took place on Polish
lands. A colonel of the
Polish Army, Berek Joselewicz, formed a Jewish cavalry regiment in 1794 which
took part in the
Kosciuszko Insurrection. The Colonel was killed during the battle of Kock in
1809. Jews were
represented in the November Insurrection (1830 - 1831), the January Insurrection
(1863), as well
as in the revolutionary movement of 1905. Many Polish Jews were enlisted in the
Legions,
commanded by , which fought for the independence finally achieved in 1918. About
100,000 Jewish
soldiers found themselves in the ranks of the Polish Army at the start of World
War II in September of
1939. Many were killed and wounded on the battlefield. For the duration of the
war, many Jews were
in the Polish Armed Forces in the West, in the Polish People's Army formed in
the Soviet Union, as
well as in civilian resistance movements and guerrilla detachments. Many lost
their lives or were
wounded; very many received the highest combat distinctions.
At the same time, especially in larger royal towns,
conflicts fired by economic rivalry broke out between
Jews and Christians. The tense atmosphere of this
struggle, conducted usually under religious slogans, was
conducive to the outbreak of anti-Jewish riots and
pogroms, for example in Krakow, Poznan, Lvov, Vilna,
Brest Litovsk and several other cities. Particularly
menacing were ritual trials organized in the period of
religious prejudices. However much more dangerous
was the situation in the Ukraine where the Jews
returned only in the late 17th century. The role played in
the 18th century by Jewish lease holders in the Polish
magnates' colonial policy turned the anger of the local
populace, as was the case during Bohdan Chmielnicki's
uprising, against both the Polish gentry and Jews
generally. In 1768, during a peasant rebellion called
kolisczzyz na, which was organized under the slogans of
"winning independence" and defense of the Russian
Orthodox religion, in Humari and several other
Ukrainian cities several thousand gentry and several tens
of thousand Jews were murdered.
From the same source:
It would be wrong to assume that the concentration of
Jews in certain branches of the economy and their
pauperization were the result of a deliberate policy on the
part of the state. It is true that the administration was
unfavorably disposed towards employing other than
Polish nationals in state enterprises, especially those of
military importance (for example railways and
armaments factories) and therefore removed Jews from
these establishments. However, the direct reason for
anti-Jewish discrimination has to be sought in the past,
in the relations which had been formed in the period of
the partitions.
From the same source:
These privileges resulted in hostile reactions against the
Jews by the Catholic clergy. In 1267, the Council of
Wroclaw created segregated Jewish quarters in citiesand
towns and ordered Jews to wear a special emblem. Jews
were banned from holding offices where Christians
would be subordinated to them and were forbidden to
build more than one prayer house in each town. These
resolutions, however, though they were reiterated during
the subsequent councils in Buda in 1279 and Leczyca in
1285, were generally not enforced due to the profits
which the Jews' economic activity yielded to the princes.
RPP
>In article <3b3c502d....@news.icom.ca>, le...@mail.neinc.ca says...
>>
>>Really? Jews creatig the most bestial savage and murderous system in
>>history can be "explained"?
>
>You are wrong, Lech.
>
>Poles created that system. Not "Jews". Poles.
>
>The infamous NKVD (initially called CheKa) has been created by a Polish
>nobleman, one Feliks Dzierzynski.
He was a Polish jew.
J.M.
RPP <le...@mail.neinc.ca> wrote in message
news:3b3cd3de....@news.icom.ca...
> >Poles created that system. Not "Jews". Poles.
> >
> >The infamous NKVD (initially called CheKa) has been created by a Polish
> >nobleman, one Feliks Dzierzynski.
>
Nope. He was a Polish nobleman. You can read about it in every Polish
history book.
A lot of Poles helped to create the bolshevik terror system. Feliks
Dzierzynski, Julian Marchlewski, Karol Swierczewski... The list is long
Sure, you can lie and claim every bolshevik with blood on his hands to be a
"Jew". But who will believe you, aside from your fellow Nazi scumbags?
RPP
>
>RPP <le...@mail.neinc.ca> wrote in message
>news:3b3cd3de....@news.icom.ca...
>> On 29 Jun 2001 02:19:11 -0700, jer...@newsguy.com wrote:
>>
>
>> >Poles created that system. Not "Jews". Poles.
>> >
>> >The infamous NKVD (initially called CheKa) has been created by a Polish
>> >nobleman, one Feliks Dzierzynski.
>>
>Nope. He was a Polish nobleman. You can read about it in every Polish
>history book.
Changes nothing as at the end these titles could have been bought. A
lot of jews became nobles.
>
>A lot of Poles helped to create the bolshevik terror system. Feliks
>Dzierzynski, Julian Marchlewski, Karol Swierczewski... The list is long
>
Marchlewski was a traitor. He was anti Polish independence and as such
not a Pole. He was a Soviet negotiator after the Polish-Soviet war. in
1920 he became a member of a commitee which wanted to make Poland a
soviet republic. So you see, he was not a Pole.
Swierczewski also fought against Poland in 1920.
So you see, they were not Poles.
J.M.
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:55:47 +0200, "J.M." <jer...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> Marchlewski was a traitor. He was anti Polish independence and as such
> not a Pole.
Bullshit. He was a Polish national, descended from a noble Polish family.
Being a traitor and betraying your own does not change your nationality or
your origin. This prominent bolshevik was Polish. So was Dzierzynski,
regardless of your pathetic attempts to make Dzierzynski a "Jew".
Dzierzynski's origin, again from Polish nobility, is well known and
documented. Sure, you can lie. But who will believe you?
> He was a Soviet negotiator after the Polish-Soviet war. in
> 1920 he became a member of a commitee which wanted to make Poland a
> soviet republic. So you see, he was not a Pole.
>
I don't see. Being a traitor and betraying your own does not change your
nationality or your origin. This prominent bolshevik was Polish. He was a
Polish national, descended from a noble Polish family. Sure, you can try to
explain these facts away. But who will believe you?
>
> Swierczewski also fought against Poland in 1920.
>
> So you see, they were not Poles.Being a traitor and betraying your own
does not change your nationality or your origin
>
I don't see. Being a traitor and betraying your own does not change your
nationality or your origin. Didn't you have a general who more or less
declared a war on his own people only to save his skin and his position as
the General Secretary of the communist party? I guess the name is
Jaruzelski. I guess his most famous military feat (beside terrorizing his
own people with martial law) has been leading Polish tanks to crush the
peaceful and non-violent protests in Prague in 1968. This Jaruzelski guy -
what is he, Chinese?
BTW, didn't a certain mr Kwasniewski, previously a communist hardliner and a
minister in Jaruzelski's martial-law "government", win the Polish
presidential election by a landslide? I don't know why you people love
commies so much, but obviously you do. Perhaps that's why you always look
for scapegoats?
Ihor
"WaRR" <wa...@ojczyzna.org> wrote in message
news:n2y_6.1562$79.3...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
> Even though jews were only 1-2% of total population of Poland after
> the war, over 90% of top TORTURERS and KILLERS in secret
> police apparatus were jews !!!!
Interesting statistics, but it would be sice to know the source...
>
> Today jews are 2% of population of Los Angeles yet over 62% of
> all top jobs in Hollywood are held by jews !!!!
Yes, and? If you're smart enough and skillful enough, you'll be one of 38%
non-Jews. Besides, are you saying the companies take Jews because they're
Jews and not neccessarily because they have better qualifications? They ARE
profitable, you know.
Ihor
""Jerzy Pawlowski"" <j...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9hi3lb$5s2$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <n2y_6.1562$79.3...@typhoon.we.rr.com>,
> WaRR <wa...@ojczyzna.org> wrote:
>
> > There are many places in Poland where people study
> > work of Schulz.
>
> Yes, like for example in Polish high schools. I
> was taught that Szulz was a Polish writer.
It's still so. The ethnic origin doesn't matter, like with Lithuanian
Mickiewicz, who was still a Polish writer.
> Now
> Szulz has been judaized.
And you choose to follow the stream?
Ihor
Kolijivschyna.
> which was organized under the slogans of
> "winning independence" and defense of the Russian
> Orthodox religion, in Humari and several other
> Ukrainian cities several thousand gentry and several tens
> of thousand Jews were murdered.
I agree with majority of what was said, except the negative stance towards
Kolijivschyna, which meant a whole lot more than simply murdering pans.
These sources describe why the Jews were disliked much better than I did.
Read it and think.
RPP
<ihor@N*Osp*am_12123_ukr.net> wrote:
>
>"NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
>news:3B3CB250...@nospam.org...
>>
>> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08386a.htm (Catholic encyclopedia)
>>
>> In 1648, the Polish Jews began themselves to be persecuted by the
>> Cossacks of the Ukraine who invaded Poland and were victorious in three
>> successive
>> campaigns. They were next subjected to the disastrous invasions of the
>Russians
>> and the
>> Swedes. It is estimated that within ten years (1648-1658), more than
>200,000
>> Jews were
>> slaughtered in the Polish dominions. In consequence, the surviving Jews of
>> Poland were
>> reduced to a condition of extreme poverty and abjection from which the
>Polish
>> kings of the
>> second part of the seventeenth century earnestly strove to extricate them.
>>
>> I appologize for saying that it was the Poles who did the killing. It was
>> definitely
>> NOT the Poles, as one can see.
EXACTLY right. You have accused Poles for the murders. If you read
about that uprising, Polish forces which were at first driven back,
saved many many jews. If not fot them, there would have been 3 or
times as many jewish deaths. It was Poles who prevented the
extermination of possibly half a million or MORE jews. Yet you,
attacked the memory of your saviours.
Interesting huh? A country who was "killing jews for 400 years" got so
much support from those who they were murdering? Maybe you should take
back your vile lies.
>> At the same time, especially in larger royal towns,
>> conflicts fired by economic rivalry broke out between
>> Jews and Christians. The tense atmosphere of this
>> struggle, conducted usually under religious slogans, was
>> conducive to the outbreak of anti-Jewish riots and
>> pogroms, for example in Krakow, Poznan, Lvov, Vilna,
>> Brest Litovsk and several other cities. Particularly
>> menacing were ritual trials organized in the period of
>> religious prejudices. However much more dangerous
>> was the situation in the Ukraine where the Jews
>> returned only in the late 17th century. The role played in
>> the 18th century by Jewish lease holders in the Polish
>> magnates' colonial policy turned the anger of the local
>> populace, as was the case during Bohdan Chmielnicki's
>> uprising, against both the Polish gentry and Jews
>> generally. In 1768, during a peasant rebellion called
>> kolisczzyz na,
>
>Kolijivschyna.
>
>> which was organized under the slogans of
>> "winning independence" and defense of the Russian
>> Orthodox religion, in Humari and several other
>> Ukrainian cities several thousand gentry and several tens
>> of thousand Jews were murdered.
>
Again, Poles who killed these jews? Poles in defense of Russian
Orthodox religion? Poles who killed Polish gentry?
RPP
Jews had a very good arrangement in Poland. They could earn money in
almost every sector they wished. They couldnt buy land, but this was
not an antoisemitic law. Only Nobles could buy land. Nobility was 10%
of the population. Poles not in the nobility could not own land
either. They were however allowed to make money in basically any other
vication. They had almost full autonomy. They had their own jewish
leaders who answered to nobody but the King himself. They were a state
within a state. The negative attitude often came from the fact that
they were a seperate society who lived beside the Plish society not
with them. The jewish wish for isolation was what gave rise to
mistrust. But massive killings? Never. Poles saved hundreds of
thousands of jews from the Cossacks. If Poles were such great
antisemites they would have left jews in Ukraine to a horrible fate
from cossack hands. You would be reading about 500 000 or 600 000
deaths, isntead of 200 000.
How did Jews repay Poland? Not very well.
RPP
>In article <n2y_6.1562$79.3...@typhoon.we.rr.com>,
>WaRR <wa...@ojczyzna.org> wrote:
>
>> There are many places in Poland where people study
>> work of Schulz.
>
> Yes, like for example in Polish high schools. I
> was taught that Szulz was a Polish writer. Now
> Szulz has been judaized.
>
Schulz was a Polish writer.
Poul
> > The anti-semitism there can only be rivaled by the Russian
> > antisemitism.
> When did you last visit Ukraine? 1940's?
1994. Still by far the most antisemithic country on Earth.
Far more than Russia for that matter.
> Maybe you don't know how most of Jews got to Ukraine? They were expelled
> from western European countries.
When did it happen?
> > > b) Whatever feeling there was, I'm sure it was mutual and not
> uncalled-for
> > > completely, which is no justification for it of course.
> > Right. Kossacs didn't butcher Jews in 1600's (and well into the
> > 20th century).
> Cossacks did not exist in 20th century...
This is beyond stupid...
<rest of BS snipped>
Poul
> "Poul" <poul...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > much Jewish art was stolen by the Ukranians and their nazi lords
> > > Somehow I haven't heard of this. Enlighten me, Mr. Farber.
> > after Nazis sent them to death camps?
> I've heard a lot of things. Only some of them are actually true.
So you DID hear of this, in contradiction of your previous claim.
> > > > and how
> > > > happily these same ukranians joined in with the slaughter of the Jews.
> > > These same Ukrainians went to death camps for saving thousands Jews in
> their> > > houses,
> > Tiny minority, bless their hearts; as opposed to vast majority who
> > happily cooperated with Nazis in extermination of Jews.
> Aw please.
Compare number of documented cases of Ukrainian saving Jews -
all they commemorised in Yad Vashem, BTW - with number of Ukrainian
capos in death camps, etc. Difference will be several orders of
magnitude.
<...>
> > > By writing these generalizations you insult their memory. Just
> > > as if I was to say that Ukrainians saved the same Jews that, in the face
> of
> > > Kaganovich, commanded the starvation of 5 million of their compatriots.
> > What is is bullshit "Jews in the face of Kaganovich" ?
> Let me get this straight, do you not understand my grammar or do you not
> know who Lazar Kaganovich is?
I don't understand how in your twisted mind one Kaganovich represents
whole Jewish people...
> > Is some Unkranian who murders people acting for all of them?
> > Ah, I forgot, you're Ukrainian...
> Are you racist?
No, but your wicked antisemithic rhetoric is very common in Ukraine.
Cultural phenomena, I guess...
Poul
> NoSpAm <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> news:3B3A378F...@nospam.org...
> > RPP wrote:
>
> > Answer the question, man. WHY were Poles murdering
> > Jews for the past 400 years? Should Jews be thankful to
> > them for this? Why should Jews love Poles? This is
> bullshit. For hundred of years Poland has been the only Christian country
> allowing Jews to settle, treating them decently and upholdning their rights
> by royal decree. You can read about it in any history of the Jews. Polish
> anti-semitism is a relatively late phenomenon, initially designed and
> implemented by the Russian tzarist secret police (the Okhrana).
Baloney. You cannot, repeat CANNOT, "design and implement" anisemithism
as deep as Polish one using secret police. It must be internal cultural
phenomena.
Bis...@af.net
You may find much information on this subject in a book "Native Realm",
ISBN 0-520-04474-6. The author, who, but for the grace of God, himself
almost became an anti-Semite, for as a young man, at dinner table had to
listen to an anti-Semitic relative from Warsaw, (rabid nationalist).
He writes, among other things, that Russia, before it absorbed the
Ukraine, Lithuania, Poland, had no Jews. They were forbidden to settle
on Russian territory, and for a long time the restriction was enforced.
Gradually , however, in the course of the nineteenth century adjustments
to this new statehood made some headway. For the Wilno rabbinate,
Russia's annexation of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a tragedy, and
they expressed as much in their proclamation to the faithful. For the
European Jews Wilno was northern Jerusalem, and rightly considered it
their cultural capital.
Unfortunately there was no bridge between Polish Catholics and the vast
majority of Jews who spoke Yiddish, only emancipated minority spoke
Russian, and a very small percentage used Polish.
Political anti-Semitism appeared very late, and it was devised by
Czarist officials, when the monarchy was already deteriorating, as an
instrument
of d i v i d e a t i m p e r a. Before that, there were rare cases
of crowds getting out of hand in a context of religious fanaticism.
Politics changed that. The Catholic population, in its furious
resistance to Russia, gradually began to look upon the Jews as a
separate nationality that was even not an ally, because the game they
were playing with the authorities was not the Polish game.
Thus the old image of the Jews as the enemies of Christ was replaced by
a new one: young men in high-necked Russian shirts, rallying to a
foreign civilization. The Socialist movement, split into two currents:
anti-Russian and pro-Russian. Russian-speaking Jews (called Litvaks)
were the mainstay of the second current, only to become, in
revolutionary Russia, fomenters of all kinds of heresies.
Sebastian
Andrzej Borowiec
(...)
>
> Hello Mr. JM,
> If you are so knowledgeable, would you care to post some
> links and explain why the negative attitude towards the Jews
> was present in both the government and among the common
> people.
The fact that you make the claim that
"the negative attitude towards the Jews
was present in both the government and among the common
people."
does not make it so. First, dear sir, kindly prove your claim
(possibly qualifying it <i.e. which government, what percentage of
which demographic, etc.>)
But let me try to answer your sweeping generalizations anyhow:
Some people tend to blame all members of other group for imagined or
factual deeds of _some_ members of that other group. Thus if I tended
to see all the Jews through the prism of what you appear to be I could
not help but be an anti-semite. What does that make you?
Andrzej Borowiec
J.M.
>
> Some people tend to blame all members of other group for imagined or
> factual deeds of _some_ members of that other group. Thus if I tended
> to see all the Jews through the prism of what you appear to be I could
> not help but be an anti-semite. What does that make you?
>
Now, back to these murals.
Yad Vashem has bought these murals from their previous owners, for a
symbolic amount.
It is not your fucking business, Mr Borowiec (or whatever your real name is)
to tell the previous owners, what to do with their property.
It is not your fucking business either, Mr Borowiec, to tell the new owners
(Yad Vashem), what _they_ should do with _their_ property, after they have
bought it.
Some people in your country (those of the far right) might dislike that
transaction. However, Drohobycz is not, repeat NOT located in Poland.
Neither is Jerusalem. Sorry to tell you - but you have no jurisdiction over
either of these places.
In case you didn't know - people of your kind do NOT possess any kind of a
collective claim on all property of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, in every
country of the world, however much you may dislike that fact.
So, go back to your work - blaming "the Jews" for "stealing" this and
"stealing" that. Do you think that anybodu gives a damn about your opinion?
However, your Rassenamtvorstand might not pay you, if you dont publish
enough anti-Semitic drivel. So please go on, by all means.
J.M.
J.M.
cos tu z twojej strony boiska przylecialo. Odbijam backhandem, napatrz sie i
podziwiaj piekna probke poslkiej kultury, zaprezentowana przez twojego
anonimowego rodaka "fatso":
_________
" I tu mam pytanie: badamy funkcje fizjologiczne jakiegos cadyka z Brooklynu
czy
tez Tel Avivu. Czy sra mu sie na twardo czy tez strzela "jet'em" mokrego
gowna.
Czy cadyk beknal czy tez pierdnal - oto jest pytanie. Nikt jakos nie kwapi
sie
do odgadniecia znaczenia najwazniejszego: co tez strzyknelo ze chrzczonego
nozem pracia Dostojnego Rabina. I ja protestuje przeciwko temu zaniedbaniu.
Ot
co!"
_________
only real fatso <fatso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010630130436...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
Mam nadzieje, Borowiec, ze ten tekscik napawa cie patriotyczna duma. Piszcie
tak jak najwiecej, wspaniale sobie swiadectwo wystawiacie.
J.M.
>
> Schulz was a Polish writer.
Funny thing, nobody considered him "Polish" when he got locked up in the
ghetto. Nobody considered him "Polish", when he got shot by the Gestapo. And
now, suddenly, he is "Polish"! Well, that's a lark!
Andrzej Borowiec
> Andrzej Borowiec <an...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a1ccd30f.01063...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Some people tend to blame all members of other group for imagined or
> > factual deeds of _some_ members of that other group. Thus if I tended
> > to see all the Jews through the prism of what you appear to be I could
> > not help but be an anti-semite. What does that make you?
> >
> Well, you _are_ an anti-Semite. So, what else is new?
Can you elaborate on the basis for your accusation?
>
> Now, back to these murals.
>
> Yad Vashem has bought these murals from their previous owners, for a
> symbolic amount.
>
> It is not your fucking business, Mr Borowiec (or whatever your real name is)
> to tell the previous owners, what to do with their property.
Please prove that Andrzej Borowiec is not my real name.
And I suppose if the owners of the murals decided to scrape them off
the walls and repaint them it would be ok too?
>
> It is not your fucking business either, Mr Borowiec, to tell the new owners
> (Yad Vashem), what _they_ should do with _their_ property, after they have
> bought it.
Could you refresh my memory and tell me what I advised them?
>
> Some people in your country (those of the far right) might dislike that
> transaction. However, Drohobycz is not, repeat NOT located in Poland.
> Neither is Jerusalem. Sorry to tell you - but you have no jurisdiction over
> either of these places.
I'm not a district attorney to seek jurisdiction in this matter.
You're trying to substitute the legality over morality of this matter.
Plus by association with the right-wingers make everybody who don't
agree with what Yad Vashem did make them guilty of prejudice against
the Israel or the Jews.
> In case you didn't know - people of your kind do NOT possess any kind of a
> collective claim on all property of Jews murdered in the Holocaust, in every
> country of the world, however much you may dislike that fact.
Present any proof that I have ever made such a claim.
>
> So, go back to your work - blaming "the Jews" for "stealing" this and
> "stealing" that. Do you think that anybodu gives a damn about your opinion?
> However, your Rassenamtvorstand might not pay you, if you dont publish
> enough anti-Semitic drivel. So please go on, by all means.
I couldn't give a flying fuck (to use your preferred vernacular) about
your opinion of me.
>
> J.M.
I didn't realize the shoe pinched you so bad. I advise you to trim
your toenails and learn to live with it.
Andrzej Borowiec
Andrzej Borowiec
Widze, ze sie doskonale z tym facetem rozumiecie. Nie wysylajcie juz
nic wiecej w moja strone.
Andrzej Borowiec
K Wallenrod
> Andrzej Borowiec <an...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a1ccd30f.01063...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > Some people tend to blame all members of other group for imagined or
> > factual deeds of _some_ members of that other group. Thus if I tended
> > to see all the Jews through the prism of what you appear to be I could
> > not help but be an anti-semite. What does that make you?
> >
> Well, you _are_ an anti-Semite. So, what else is new?
>
> Now, back to these murals.
>
> Yad Vashem has bought these murals from their previous owners, for a
> symbolic amount.
>
> It is not your fucking business, Mr Borowiec (or whatever your real name is)
> to tell the previous owners, what to do with their property.
>
> It is not your fucking business either, Mr Borowiec, to tell the new owners
> (Yad Vashem), what _they_ should do with _their_ property, after they have
> bought it.
>
> Some people in your country (those of the far right) might dislike that
> transaction. However, Drohobycz is not, repeat NOT located in Poland.
> Neither is Jerusalem. Sorry to tell you - but you have no jurisdiction over
> either of these places.
>
And Jedwabne is in Poland, so piss off. Though the world is yours to
lie to continuously.
KW
K Wallenrod
Bullshit...he was well known in Polish literary circles and his POLISH
friends tried to save him as best as they could. Here's a simple
task: read his biography.
KW
RPP
wrote:
>"J.M." <jer...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<9hl9c6$sm4$2...@zingo.tninet.se>...
>> Andrzej Borowiec <an...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:a1ccd30f.01063...@posting.google.com...
>> >
>> > Some people tend to blame all members of other group for imagined or
>> > factual deeds of _some_ members of that other group. Thus if I tended
>> > to see all the Jews through the prism of what you appear to be I could
>> > not help but be an anti-semite. What does that make you?
>> >
>> Well, you _are_ an anti-Semite. So, what else is new?
>
>Can you elaborate on the basis for your accusation?
You are an antisemite because you dont agree with everything yad
vashem or jews do and dont condone their thievery.
>>
>> Now, back to these murals.
>>
>> Yad Vashem has bought these murals from their previous owners, for a
>> symbolic amount.
>>
>> It is not your fucking business, Mr Borowiec (or whatever your real name is)
>> to tell the previous owners, what to do with their property.
>
>Please prove that Andrzej Borowiec is not my real name.
>
>And I suppose if the owners of the murals decided to scrape them off
>the walls and repaint them it would be ok too?
>
Its is quite interesting that Yad Vashem can steal these murals and JM
ays its ok, they are the owners, but organizing a disco in Asuchwitz
by an owner of the building was met with such hostility. In one case
the jews can do anything they want but in the other Poles cant. What
great example of the jew hypocrisy.
NoSpAm
I don't think YOU gave this enough thought. The reality
is not very difficult to grasp -- because Jews
KEPT their religion, they paid for this dearly.
Starting in 1200's with Christian persecution
in Poland, all the way to the 20th century. Do me a favor,
and read ALL of the text (a few pages) on the polishjews.org
about the history of Jews in Poland. They were NOT
disliked because they were BAD people. They were disliked
because they were PLACED in a position in which
they were disliked. But all of the "dislike" is a pretense
for a more fundamental dislike. It is a dislike of
Christians, which is as old as Christianity is.
RPP
>
>I don't think YOU gave this enough thought. The reality
>is not very difficult to grasp -- because Jews
>KEPT their religion, they paid for this dearly.
>Starting in 1200's with Christian persecution
>in Poland,
What persecution? Is this more of that "Poles have been killing jews
for 400 years" crap when you mstook Chmielnicki for Poland? There may
have been some persecution, but then again, you know who was the
middleman for slavery of Slavs in the early middle ages? Jewish
travellers. So who was REALLy persecuting who?
>all the way to the 20th century. Do me a favor,
>and read ALL of the text (a few pages) on the polishjews.org
>about the history of Jews in Poland. They were NOT
>disliked because they were BAD people. They were disliked
>because they were PLACED in a position in which
>they were disliked.
They may have been placed there INITIALLY, but they got to love it.
Their positions in cities, as monopolies of trade for example. Jews
had a saying in Poland "Nasze kamienice wasze ulice" meaning the
houses are ours the streets yours. Read about Jewish behaviour during
the 3 partitions. In Poznan, jews were more anti-Polish than the
Prussians. Jews wanted to clear the city of Poles alltogether. Jews
wer the best allies of the partitioning powers in Prussian, Austria
and Russia. Not bad people? I beg to differ.
Ihor
You forgot the main reasons, as stated in those quotes you haven't carefully
read.
"conflicts fired by economic rivalry broke out between
> > > Jews and Christians. The tense atmosphere of this
> > > struggle, conducted usually under religious slogans"
The religion wouldn't have mattered if Jews would be respectful towards
Poles/Ukrainians, if they'd think of anything else other than their interest
and their interest only, if the people around them wouldn't see them as
oppressing exploiters.
> Starting in 1200's with Christian persecution
> in Poland, all the way to the 20th century. Do me a favor,
> and read ALL of the text (a few pages) on the polishjews.org
> about the history of Jews in Poland. They were NOT
> disliked because they were BAD people.
I never said that. They were disliked because so many of them were BAD
people who did very BAD things.
> They were disliked
> because they were PLACED in a position in which
> they were disliked.
Against their will? They didn't like the position? They cared about common
people?
> But all of the "dislike" is a pretense
> for a more fundamental dislike. It is a dislike of
> Christians, which is as old as Christianity is.
You like to generalize, I noticed that about you. Also, you like to fall
into extremities, like a child. Gotta think, buddy.
NoSpAm
> "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
>
> > They were disliked
> > because they were PLACED in a position in which
> > they were disliked.
>
> Against their will? They didn't like the position? They cared about common
> people?
>
> > But all of the "dislike" is a pretense
> > for a more fundamental dislike. It is a dislike of
> > Christians, which is as old as Christianity is.
>
> You like to generalize, I noticed that about you. Also, you like to fall
> into extremities, like a child. Gotta think, buddy.
They were persecuted elsewhere in Europe. They had no choice
but to accept the offer from the Poles. There is nothing
voluntary about that -- they got kicked out by the
Church-going common folk which was incited by the Church,
as you surely know by now. Some of the common folk was
the burghers who did compete with Jews. Thus, because
the Jews were better at what they do (as you yourself noticed
recently), they got kicked out. And to make everything legitimate,
RELIGION was used as a pretext (i.e. Jews killed Christ, etc).
NoSpAm
You can't read, can you? Jews fought on the Polish side in
ALL of its wars. They were more patriotic than some Poles
when it came to defending their country. I provided more than
enough evidence to this effect. Eitehr you are blind, or you
don't like Jews, or both.
Ihor
> Ihor wrote:
>
> > "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
> >
>
> > > They were disliked
> > > because they were PLACED in a position in which
> > > they were disliked.
> >
> > Against their will? They didn't like the position? They cared about
common
> > people?
>
> >
> > > But all of the "dislike" is a pretense
> > > for a more fundamental dislike. It is a dislike of
> > > Christians, which is as old as Christianity is.
> >
> > You like to generalize, I noticed that about you. Also, you like to fall
> > into extremities, like a child. Gotta think, buddy.
>
> They were persecuted elsewhere in Europe. They had no choice
> but to accept the offer from the Poles. There is nothing
> voluntary about that
Don't tell me Poland was their only choice.
> -- they got kicked out by the
> Church-going common folk which was incited by the Church,
> as you surely know by now. Some of the common folk was
> the burghers who did compete with Jews. Thus, because
> the Jews were better at what they do (as you yourself noticed
> recently),
??????
> they got kicked out. And to make everything legitimate,
> RELIGION was used as a pretext (i.e. Jews killed Christ, etc).
Didn't you say they were disliked because of their religion? Now you say
it's a pretext, with which I agree.
WaRR
NoSpAm wrote in message <3B4499B2...@nospam.org>...
>
>You can't read, can you? Jews fought on the Polish side in
>ALL of its wars. They were more patriotic than some Poles
>when it came to defending their country. I provided more than
>enough evidence to this effect. Eitehr you are blind, or you
>don't like Jews, or both.
Sure, especially when they welcomed communist soviet
occupiers in eastern Poland waving soviet flags and throwing
flowers on soviet tanks. When soviets settled down, jews
were then instrumental in denouncing Polish patriots and
pointing out Polish families to be exiled in Siberia.
After the war jews again took prominent seats in soviet
secret police NKVD.
WaRR
RPP
>Ihor wrote:
>
>> "NoSpAm" <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
>>
>
>> > They were disliked
>> > because they were PLACED in a position in which
>> > they were disliked.
>>
>> Against their will? They didn't like the position? They cared about common
>> people?
>
>>
>> > But all of the "dislike" is a pretense
>> > for a more fundamental dislike. It is a dislike of
>> > Christians, which is as old as Christianity is.
>>
>> You like to generalize, I noticed that about you. Also, you like to fall
>> into extremities, like a child. Gotta think, buddy.
>
>They were persecuted elsewhere in Europe. They had no choice
>but to accept the offer from the Poles.
Oh shut up. The jews were not persecuted. Infact the Jews had more
rights than anyone in Poland except the nobility. The jews were free,
had their own government. They lived as good as the burghers and
townsfolk, maybe even better, since they were close partners of the
nobility and made a lot of money on business of the nobility (a lot on
the grain trade for example). The jews had it FAR better than the
peasants for example. FAR FAR better.
> There is nothing
>voluntary about that -- they got kicked out by the
>Church-going common folk which was incited by the Church,
>as you surely know by now. Some of the common folk was
>the burghers who did compete with Jews. Thus, because
>the Jews were better at what they do (as you yourself noticed
>recently), they got kicked out.
They were not better, Usually, a minority is better able to organize
itself than the majority die to a real or perceived "danger" from the
majority. Jews were very well organized in Poland because they were a
minority. Poles in Greater Poland defeated the kulutukampf of
Bismarck, were far better organized than the Germans and thats why for
all of Prussia's trying, germanization of Poles in the Prussian
partition, with help of Jews btw, was a big failure.
> And to make everything legitimate,
>RELIGION was used as a pretext (i.e. Jews killed Christ, etc).
>
Religion was used as apretext in Wstern Europe but not POland, where
there was zero inquisition, there was no violent religous clashes,
where a Catholic church was across the street from a synagogue, and an
orthodox church. Religion wasnt a pretext for killing of jews by the
cossacks, instead it was due to jewish role in the noble estates.
Religion may have been an issue in the backwards west.
RPP
>
>NoSpAm wrote in message <3B4499B2...@nospam.org>...
>>
>>You can't read, can you? Jews fought on the Polish side in
>>ALL of its wars. They were more patriotic than some Poles
>>when it came to defending their country.
Poland was not their country! You were never part of Poland. Even
after 15 generations a jew could never be Polish. A handful of jews
fought for Poland. 99% betrayed Poland.
NoSpAm
This should be enough to prove you wrong on all counts. The Jews
"betrayed" Poland much like the Polish did.
There are records of joint revolts by Jewish craftsmen
and Christian "patcher" against the guild elders. There
were also joint revolts of the Jews and the burghers
against the gentry. This found expression in an
agreement which in 1589 Jews in Kamionka Strumilowa
concluded with the municipal authorities "with the
consent of all the populace". The councilors "accepted
the Jews into their own laws and freedoms while they
[the Jews] undertook to carry the same burdens as the
burghers". Jews pledged themselves to help in keeping
order and cleanliness in the town, hold guard and take
part in anti-flood operations together with Christians.
The latter promised that they would "defend those Jews
as our real neighbors from intrusions and violence of
both the gentry and soldiers. They would defend them
and prevent all harm done to them... since they are our
neighbors."
*****
In the second half of the 17th century Jews took an
increasingly numerous part in the wars fought by the
Commonwealth. During wars against the Cossacks and
the Tartars, the Jewish population provided infantry and
mounted troops. Some young Jews fought in the open
field, for example in the battle of Beresteczko. Jews also
fought in defense of besieged cities, for example
Tulczyn, Polonne, Lvov and others. During Poland's
wars with Sweden (1655-60), Russia (1654-67) and
Turkey (1667-99) Jews provided recruits and
participated in the city's defense (for example Przemysl,
Vitebsk, Stary Bychow, Mohylew, Lvov and
Trembowla), together with the burghers and gentry
organized sorties to the enemy's camp (for example at
Suraz in 1655, in the vicinity of Podhajce in 1667 and in
Przemysl in 1672). The military engineer Jezue
Moszkowicz of Kazimierz near Krakow, who in 1664
served in the Polish army, saved heavy mortars and
other weapons from being sunk during the war against
Russia.
During the Kosciuszko Insurrection and wars against
Tsarist Russia in 1794 Jews supported the uprising
either in auxiliary services or in arms. For example they
took part in the April revolution in Warsaw where many
of them perished. After the Russian army was repulsed
from Warsaw the idea was born to create a separate
military unit composed of Jewish volunteers. This idea
was backed by the commander in chief of the
Insurrection, Tadeusz Kosciuszko. "Nothing can
convince more the far away nations about the holiness of
our cause and the justness of the present revolution," he
wrote in a Statement on the Formation of a Regiment of
Jews, "than that, though separated from us by their
religion and customs, they sacrifice their own lives of
their own free will in order to support the uprising." The
Jewish regiment under Colonel Berek Josielewicz took
part in the fighting during the storming of the Praga
district of Warsaw by Tsarist troops on 4 November
1794. With the blood shed in this war they documented
the loyalty of the Jewish population to the cause of the
revolution and the slogans it upheld-equality and
fraternity.
****
Basic changes in the situation of Galician Jewry took
place after 1848. Jews were active in the revolutionary
movement of the period, which resulted in a
Polish-Jewish reconciliation and Jewish emancipation.
****
he November Insurrection of 1830-31 did not change
the legal status of the Jews. The conservative leaders of
the insurrection did not plan very progressive reforms in
any field of social life. Nevertheless since Jews in
Warsaw shared the national liberation aims of the
insurrection, in early 1831 small groups of the richest
Jewish sections were allowed to join the National
Guards. Representatives of the petite bourgeoisie could
enlist in the Municipal Guards while the proletariat
joined the Security Guards.
*****
Since the most politically-minded Jewish circles
considered the changes as their victory, they supported
the January Insurrection of 1863. Several months after
the outbreak of the insurrection, the insurrectionary
National Government proclaimed full equality of rights
for Jews in Poland. Jews found themselves in the ranks
of insurrectionary armies and also among the leaders of
the insurrection. The well-known banker and
industrialist, Leopold Kronenberg (1812-78), who had
wide-ranging contacts in European banking circles,
organized the insurrection's finances. The fall of the
insurrection, however, crushed hopes and destroyed the
reforms of the National Government.
*****
The Bund, like the illegal Communist Party of Poland to
which many Jews also belonged and the Polish Socialist
Party, saw the only chance of solving the Jewish
question in Poland in building a socialist society without
man's exploitation by man. It sought its allies among
workers of all nationalities living in Poland. It opposed
all concepts of emigration since it perceived the
impracticability of the idea of organizing emigration of a
several million strong nation. The socialist leaders
considered the Palestinian campaign to be an element
weakening the forces of the proletariat fighting for a
change in social relations and as a solution which at best
could constitute a chance for only few.
*****
All the workers, organizations, irrespective of the
differences that separated them, cooperated in many
important issues. They undertook a common struggle
against campaigns organized by the right wing of the
National Democratic Party. In Warsaw they even formed
an underground organization the task of which was to
put up armed resistance to the nationalist militants. Both
Jews and Poles connected with the workers, movement
took part in its work.
fatso
in Katyn List, that roll of honour of polish intelligentsia. It has to be
remembered what it meant: namely that the interrogated person has chosen to
be polish, and true to its fatherland, Poland. Those who have decided to
play along with soviets, have escape the execution.
Therefore, it is my belief, that any person who can claim direct
relationship to such a jewish-polish martyr does deserve polish citizenship
and all the honours due to descendance from a Polish Hero.
fatso
NoSpAm
Exactly. This applies to BOTH the Poles and the Jews. Equally.
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj
> On Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:55:47 +0200, "J.M." <jer...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >RPP <le...@mail.neinc.ca> wrote in message
> >news:3b3cd3de....@news.icom.ca...
> >> On 29 Jun 2001 02:19:11 -0700, jer...@newsguy.com wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> >Poles created that system. Not "Jews". Poles.
> >> >
> >> >The infamous NKVD (initially called CheKa) has been created by a Polish
> >> >nobleman, one Feliks Dzierzynski.
> >>
> >Nope. He was a Polish nobleman. You can read about it in every Polish
> >history book.
>
> Changes nothing as at the end these titles could have been bought. A
> lot of jews became nobles.
> >
> >A lot of Poles helped to create the bolshevik terror system. Feliks
> >Dzierzynski, Julian Marchlewski, Karol Swierczewski... The list is long
> >
>
> Marchlewski was a traitor. He was anti Polish independence and as such
> not a Pole. He was a Soviet negotiator after the Polish-Soviet war. in
> 1920 he became a member of a commitee which wanted to make Poland a
> soviet republic. So you see, he was not a Pole.
>
> Swierczewski also fought against Poland in 1920.
>
> So you see, they were not Poles.
>
> >Sure, you can lie and claim every bolshevik with blood on his hands to be a
> >"Jew". But who will believe you, aside from your fellow Nazi scumbags?
> >
So by your reasoning the Russian ethnics in Vlasov's army (of ww2)
were/are not Russians, because they fought against Stalin's Russia?
I agree that Stalin should be labeled as Russian.
So how do you label: Dziersynski, Marchlewski, Swierczewski ...
Ehh...
Jewish, by the way, does not denote and ethnicity or political nationality.
It denotes a religion and describes a cultural grouping.
i.e. there exist: Russian Jews, Polish Jews, Israeli Jews
but Jewish Catholics, or Jewish Buddhists, etc. are non existent groupings.