Censorship of SERDAR ARGIC
dallas bucher
Who the hell do you people think you are to censor my newsfeed? So, you
don't like what Mr. Argic has to say? Gee, let's all cancel everything that
anyone finds objectionable and everyone will be happy, right? Do you seriously
think that this is the way to do this? Use kill files if you don't want to read
what he has to say. As far as I know, what Mr. Argic has to say is as true as
anything that anyone has to say about the Armenian massacre. Is it Revisionism?
If so, please post something to refute what he has to say. Yeah, he posts the
same crap in every one of his postings, but what if it's true, and we've all
believed the ALLEDGED truth of what happened in the Caucasus at the beginning
of this century? At least Mr. Argic posts his references, which is more than
most of you have done. Yeah, it must be annoying as hell to have to sift through
all of his postings, especially if you really don't want to hear it. However,
THE MAN HAS A RIGHT TO SAY HIS PEACE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO HEAR IT OR NOT!!!
(sorry about the caps:-)). My basic point is, I don't like this alt.cancle.bots
GARBAGE, and I think that all of you that are so happy about it ought to
remember that what comes around, goes around. Maybe you'll be the next one
scheduled for "SPECIAL" treatment.
They came for the blacks, but I wasn't black, so I said nothing.
They came for the gypsies, but I wasn't a gypsy, so I said nothing.
They came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I said nothing.
They came for the Turks, but I wasn't a turk, so I said nothing.
They came for the Catholics, but I wasn't Catholic, so I said nothing.
Then, they came for me and my family. When I begged for help,
there was no one left to help me.
Please do not follow up to this or E-Mail me anything, because
I am simply expressing my opinions on this pathetically stupid
*CENSORSHIP* thing.
Love to all,
Peace to all,
Understanding for all.
Dallas Bucher i000262(dbucher)@discg3.dla.mil
Defense Industrial Supply Center
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
(215)697-3649 (AV)442-3649
oak...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>
> Who the hell do you people think you are to censor my newsfeed? So, you
>don't like what Mr. Argic has to say? Gee, let's all cancel everything that
>anyone finds objectionable and everyone will be happy, right? Do you seriously
>THE MAN HAS A RIGHT TO SAY HIS PEACE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO HEAR IT OR NOT!!!
>(sorry about the caps:-)). My basic point is, I don't like this alt.cancle.bots
>GARBAGE, and I think that all of you that are so happy about it ought to
>remember that what comes around, goes around. Maybe you'll be the next one
>scheduled for "SPECIAL" treatment.
I agree completely. The net is a new frontier where there is a possibility of
not having someone influence what is said for the first time! Let it stay that
way. Keep all sorts of auto cancel bots and whatever out ! Whats next you
put traces on my e-mail adresses, capture private e-mail?
>
>They came for the blacks, but I wasn't black, so I said nothing.
>They came for the gypsies, but I wasn't a gypsy, so I said nothing.
>They came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew, so I said nothing.
>They came for the Turks, but I wasn't a turk, so I said nothing.
>They came for the Catholics, but I wasn't Catholic, so I said nothing.
>Then, they came for me and my family. When I begged for help,
>there was no one left to help me.
>
> Please do not follow up to this or E-Mail me anything, because
>I am simply expressing my opinions on this pathetically stupid
>*CENSORSHIP* thing.
>
>Love to all,
>Peace to all,
>Understanding for all.
>
> Dallas Bucher i000262(dbucher)@discg3.dla.mil
> Defense Industrial Supply Center
> Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
> (215)697-3649 (AV)442-3649
>
A.O.Koker.
2260...@msu.edu
oak...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>In article <CoGwK...@disce1.uucp>, i000262 (dallas bucher) writes:
>>
>> Who the hell do you people think you are to censor my newsfeed? So, you
>>don't like what Mr. Argic has to say? Gee, let's all cancel everything that
>>anyone finds objectionable and everyone will be happy, right? Do you seriously
>
>>THE MAN HAS A RIGHT TO SAY HIS PEACE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO HEAR IT OR NOT!!!
>
>not having someone influence what is said for the first time! Let it stay that
>way. Keep all sorts of auto cancel bots and whatever out ! Whats next you
>put traces on my e-mail adresses, capture private e-mail?
>
message to news.admin.policy protesting the cancellation of Serdar's
postings.
Everyone has the right to express their feelings. Individuals have the
freedom to choose what to read and what not to read. There is absolutely no
sense in someone else deciding what one should read.
Tunga
Raffi Kojian
> freedom to choose what to read and what not to read. There is absolutely no
> sense in someone else deciding what one should read.
Humans have rights, programs do not.
n_w$$h
Cetin Kaya Koc
writes:
* * Everyone has the right to express their feelings. Individuals have the
* * freedom to choose what to read and what not to read. There is absolutely no
* * sense in someone else deciding what one should read.
*
*
* Humans have rights, programs do not.
*
* n_w$$h
How do I know that you are not a program?
Cetin Koc
Oregon State University
2260...@msu.edu
people? Well, I got bad news for you.
Those programs are written by people, aren't they? <YES>
Those people have the right to express their opinions, right? <YES, AGAIN>
Then does that mean the programs written by them represent the opinions
of those people? <AHA! GOT IT!>
I included the answers beside the questions in case you have trouble finding
them out all by yourself.
Enjoy the rest of your life!!
Tunga
oak...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
In article <2p1dg...@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU>, k...@rize.ECE.ORST.EDU (Cetin Kaya Koc) writes:
>In article <2p1b1p$9...@galaxy.ucr.edu> ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian)
>writes:
>* * Everyone has the right to express their feelings. Individuals have the
>* * freedom to choose what to read and what not to read. There is absolutely no
>* * sense in someone else deciding what one should read.
>*
>*
>* Humans have rights, programs do not.
all forms of inteligence shall have such rights, not just man!
A.O.Koker
David Davidian
[db] Who the hell do you people think you are to censor my newsfeed? So, you
[db] don't like what Mr. Argic has to say? Gee, let's all cancel everything
[db] that anyone finds objectionable and everyone will be happy, right? Do you
[db] seriously think that this is the way to do this? Use kill files if you
[db] don't want to read what he has to say. As far as I know, what Mr. Argic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[db] has to say is as true as anything that anyone has to say about the
[db] Armenian massacre.
Well, sir, why did you base a posting on such little knowledge? Besides later
in your posting you call what "Mr. Argic" has to say as crap! Why the
contradiction?
[db] Is it Revisionism? If so, please post something to refute what he has to
[db] say.
Argic, or whatever, has posted the following at least a hundred times over the
past week:
[(*] This article has just been cancelled by the criminal Armenians
[(*] of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
[(*] attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
[(*] in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
Can you tell us where you ever read, or even seen Azeris claim that Armenians
killed a million Azeris in 1988? You cannot, neither has Argic, and neither
has anybody, because it is not true! This is just as revisionist as is the
claim that Armenian killed 2.5 million anything in 1914.
I suspect you haven't been reading since the advent of Argic, and Mutlu before
it! Before you make comments like these, you had better read those refutations.
Most all of what has been posted under the name of Argic, and Mutlu before him,
has been addressed and refuted. The results include:
1) Turks strip-quoting,
2) Turks quoting text from pages with only photographs,
3) Turks quoting Turks who had earlier revised Russian military accounts,
4) Turks quoting from references that don't exist,
5) Turks quoting from Armenian language references with translations from
"another world".
6) Turks quoting "academics" on the Turkish government payroll,
7) Turks quoting other Turks who revise Turkish history,
8) Turks engaging in creative demographics where time and space are irrelevant,
9) etc.
[db] Yeah, he posts the same crap in every one of
~~~~
[db] his postings, but what if it's true, and we've all believed the ALLEDGED
~~~~~~~~
[db] truth of what happened in the Caucasus at the beginning of this century?
Yes, it's true crap!
Just to demonstrate that you either have been fooled or can't read, the events
in question are the events concerning the Turkish genocide of the Armenians
which for the most part took place in Asia Minor, not the Caucasus, and most of
these Armenians were murdered before the end of 1915.
[db] At least Mr. Argic posts his references, which is more than most of you
[db] have done. Yeah, it must be annoying as hell to have to sift through
[db] all of his postings, especially if you really don't want to hear it.
[db] However, THE MAN HAS A RIGHT TO SAY HIS PEACE, WHETHER YOU WANT TO HEAR
[db] IT OR NOT!!! (sorry about the caps:-)). My basic point is, I don't like
[db] this alt.cancle.bots GARBAGE, and I think that all of you that are so
[db] happy about it ought to remember that what comes around, goes around.
[db] Maybe you'll be the next one scheduled for "SPECIAL" treatment.
Well, [db], I prefer not to have an auto-cancel facility for Argic. Argic
allows a convenient mechanism for Turkish Genocide Apology to be punched in
the face with the entire world watching,
[db] Please do not follow up to this or E-Mail me anything, because
[db] I am simply expressing my opinions on this pathetically stupid
[db] *CENSORSHIP* thing.
You wrote more about the content of Argic's postings than about their auto-
cancellation. If you didn't want a followup than you should not have stated
publicly your support of Turkish historical revisionism, clearly never having
read any refutations of Argic and Turkish anti-Armenianism. You could have
simply posted an opinion on the auto-cancellations, but didn't!
--
David Davidian d...@urartu.sdpa.org | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761 | even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238 | Turkish MP, March 1992
2260...@msu.edu
d...@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>[db] don't want to read what he has to say. As far as I know, what Mr. Argic
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>[db] has to say is as true as anything that anyone has to say about the
>[db] Armenian massacre.
>
>Well, sir, why did you base a posting on such little knowledge? Besides later
>in your posting you call what "Mr. Argic" has to say as crap! Why the
>contradiction?
>
to cancel it because they don't like it!
>[(*] attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
>[(*] in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
>
>Can you tell us where you ever read, or even seen Azeris claim that Armenians
>killed a million Azeris in 1988? You cannot, neither has Argic, and neither
>has anybody, because it is not true! This is just as revisionist as is the
>claim that Armenian killed 2.5 million anything in 1914.
Why in the hell, do you refer to Muslims as anything. They are humans
and deserve some respect, at least more than YOU do!
>
>1) Turks strip-quoting,
>2) Turks quoting text from pages with only photographs,
>3) Turks quoting Turks who had earlier revised Russian military accounts,
>4) Turks quoting from references that don't exist,
>5) Turks quoting from Armenian language references with translations from
> "another world".
>6) Turks quoting "academics" on the Turkish government payroll,
>7) Turks quoting other Turks who revise Turkish history,
>8) Turks engaging in creative demographics where time and space are irrelevant,
>9) etc.
>
put it at the very end!
>[db] Yeah, he posts the same crap in every one of
> ~~~~
>[db] his postings, but what if it's true, and we've all believed the ALLEDGED
> ~~~~~~~~
>[db] truth of what happened in the Caucasus at the beginning of this century?
>
>Yes, it's true crap!
>
people to cancel his postings.
>
>Well, [db], I prefer not to have an auto-cancel facility for Argic. Argic
>allows a convenient mechanism for Turkish Genocide Apology to be punched in
>the face with the entire world watching,
>
>
>You wrote more about the content of Argic's postings than about their auto-
>cancellation. If you didn't want a followup than you should not have stated
>publicly your support of Turkish historical revisionism, clearly never having
>read any refutations of Argic and Turkish anti-Armenianism. You could have
>simply posted an opinion on the auto-cancellations, but didn't!
>
>
point out that wahtever the contents are, auto-cancellation is wrong.
His only mistake is he thought smart people would read his postings, not
people like you who don't go beyond evaluating messages word by word rather
than looking at the whole message itself.
Sleep well,
Tunga
Zak May
> I invite all those that are against "CENSORSHIP" in the Usenet to send a
> message to news.admin.policy protesting the cancellation of Serdar's
> postings.
>
> Everyone has the right to express their feelings. Individuals have the
> freedom to choose what to read and what not to read. There is absolutely no
> sense in someone else deciding what one should read.
The net is for people. Serdar Argic is a robot. Robots don't have rights.
___
Zak.
2260...@msu.edu
sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>
>The net is for people. Serdar Argic is a robot. Robots don't have rights.
>
>___
>Zak.
>
Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
who create them.
I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
Tunga
Raffi Kojian
> >Humans have rights, programs do not.
>
> people? Well, I got bad news for you.
>
> Those programs are written by people, aren't they? <YES>
> Those people have the right to express their opinions, right? <YES, AGAIN>
> Then does that mean the programs written by them represent the opinions
> of those people? <AHA! GOT IT!>
Well Tunga, despite what you think is a breakthrough in logic you are wrong.
People do have a right to express their opinions, and programs they write may
or may not do that, but the program does not have constitutional rights.
Otherwise computer virus' would destroy the information superhighway!
So, as I said, Humans have rights, programs do not.
n_w$$h
(As for the bozo who questioned whether I am human, why don't you give me your
phone number and I will try and convince you ;-)
Raffi Kojian
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> all forms of inteligence shall have such rights, not just man!
not in the USA they don't. I can't say about Turkey...
n_w$$h
David Lesher
>who create them.
Only if they obey the Three Laws. Otherwise they are clearly
beserk. Call Susan @ U. S. Robotics [_the_ original one]
and get her help with this one....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close)....kibo# 777............pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead..............vr....................20915-1433
Neal Pendleton
"... all forms of inteligence ..." that still does not cover zuma's `bot.
Neal "I'v got 'bot rot" Pendleton
oak...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>>Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>>who create them.
>
>Only if they obey the Three Laws. Otherwise they are clearly
>beserk. Call Susan @ U. S. Robotics [_the_ original one]
>and get her help with this one....
the tree laws are effective if robot is fully independently acting!
as typed above robots have their rights and represent the ideas of
their creator.
i would not jump to the conclusion that ai needs to be that way!
sincerely,
A.O.Koker.
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
>In article <2p432a...@umbc9.umbc.edu>
>sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>>
>>The net is for people. Serdar Argic is a robot. Robots don't have rights.
>
>Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>who create them.
Your legal opinions could have saved a major industial company a few
million dollars. A worker in an industrial plant tried to enter the
robot's work space and fix something before deactivating it, the robot
killed the worker, and the worker's family walked out with $12 mil.
They should have claimed 'Self Defense'...
If you want to talk robot rights examine the Asimov Laws... As applicable
to robo-posters.
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos Kokomo, IN 46904 (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools, AD/SI c2...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics/GM Hughes Electronics [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
2260...@msu.edu
wb8...@netcom.com (David Lesher) writes:
>
>>Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>>who create them.
>
>Only if they obey the Three Laws. Otherwise they are clearly
>beserk. Call Susan @ U. S. Robotics [_the_ original one]
>and get her help with this one....
>--
Tunga
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>
>2260...@msu.edu writes
>> >Humans have rights, programs do not.
>People do have a right to express their opinions, and programs they write may
>or may not do that, but the program does not have constitutional rights.
>Otherwise computer virus' would destroy the information superhighway!
>
>So, as I said, Humans have rights, programs do not.
>
>n_w$$h
>
rights, half of the things we do throughout our life is illegal and
unconstitutional and etc.
You MUST have SOME ability to reach conclusions and results by yourself!
Don't always wait for a constitution to cover the subject.
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
c2...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>
>>Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>>who create them.
>
>Your legal opinions could have saved a major industial company a few
>million dollars. A worker in an industrial plant tried to enter the
>robot's work space and fix something before deactivating it, the robot
>killed the worker, and the worker's family walked out with $12 mil.
>
>They should have claimed 'Self Defense'...
>
>If you want to talk robot rights examine the Asimov Laws... As applicable
>to robo-posters.
>
>Spiros
Of course they will have to pay the money. Because the robots represents
the ideas of its creator, the creator is responsible for the actions of the
robot in a similar sense. You have to understand the tie between the robot and
its creator.
Therefore your example does not oppose my defense but rather supports it.
Poor logic..:-)
Oh, by the way I am a great Asimov fan, and now much more about robots than you
can think of. (I am an EE graduate with a graduation project on robots!!!)
Tunga
David Hultgren
The problem is:
Suha/Serdar/RooT is just a single assho.. , and his
robot is dumb, but look at the BW he takes and the damage
he is doing!
Now think what would happen if many "special
interrest groups" started to use roboposters in his
charming way. It could ruin the net completely!
If the man continues to missuse the net and crosspost to
groups who havent the slightest connection to his
rambelings, I dont see that he has anything to do here at
all!
Cant somebody give the man a newsgroup of his own where he
and the few who are interrested in "discussing" with him
could go?
btw. does anybody know the cowards real emailadress?
(I know he is supposed to be A. Cosar on Un.of Minnesota,
has anybody confronted him there about it?)
--
David Hultgren, Space Eng.
Co: Paulsson
Lillekrok 8
S-22738 Lund
SWEDEN
------------------------------------------
"I have a spelling checker.
It came with my PC.
It plane lee marks four my review
Miss steaks aye can knot see."
(Jerrold H. Zar)
------------------------------------------
Darius H Torchinsky
While reading this thread, I saw that a lot of allusions to
letting people have their free speech were made. The problem with
Serdar is not that he (or she or it, whatever) has a voice, but that
his (or her or its) voice is a bit too loud... It's perfectly
acceptable to talk about the slaughter of Muslims by a despotic
government, but to splash it across the Internet, on newsgroups
that have nothing to do with it (i.e. soc.culture.iranian) is
wrong. It's downright pollution and is just a bit unreasonable.
Soc.culture.iranian used to be a place where you could
discuss things persian. Now, people are in a fix trying to get
their Kill files arranged, and the whole group is buzzing with
a chant of "Let's get rid of Serdar." His (or her or its) drivel
does not belong on that net, and for that reason, I think that
Serdar SHOULD be silenced, at least from the groups in which he
does not belong...
Darius Torchinsky
A. Cosar
>The problem is:
>Suha/Serdar/RooT is just a single assho.. , and his
>robot is dumb, but look at the BW he takes and the damage
>he is doing!
Any proof for this marvellous flight of imagination? If you don't
provide one I will have to conclude that you are yet another liar/idiot
paying lip service to ASALA/SDPA/ARF Armenian terrorists/apologists.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: co...@anatolia.org
UUCP : rutgers!uunet!anatolia!cosar
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Hultgren
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
NOTE. If You reply to the multi-named mr cosar/Serdar/a.s.o.
Remove the misc.test and alt.test from the follow-upps
(it is a pathetic try to sabotage Your replies by sending
You echos from all nodes getting Your post)
(To soc.culture.nordic: Excuse me for including You on the
postlist, but since A. Cosar had, I wanted to warn You
also about his sabotage...)
----------------------------------------------------------
In article <gate.iRJ...@anatolia.org>,
co...@anatolia.org (A. Cosar) writes:
|> In article <2pbftk$r...@nic.lth.se> e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
|>
|> >The problem is:
|> >Suha/Serdar/RooT is just a single assho.. , and his
|> >robot is dumb, but look at the BW he takes and the damage
^^^^
Not only that, A. Cosar also seems to be much for sabotage!
|> >he is doing!
|>
|> Any proof for this marvellous flight of imagination? If you don't
|> provide one I will have to conclude that you are yet another liar/idiot
|> paying lip service to ASALA/SDPA/ARF Armenian
terrorists/apologists.
Well, Stop putting the testgroups in the header for a start!
(I call trying to fool beginners sending to the test sites
a kind of sabotage...)
Hows that for a proof for the damage You do? (Thanks for
giving me one more reason in Your pathetic sabotage attempt)
---------------------------------------------------------
(none of this will propably be replied to, stay tuned for
some insult to my grandparent or some couple of
kb of textquotes about armenian killings and me
protecting them!)
----------------------------------------------------------
You are a pathetic coward, When You do not use Your bots
You tries to sabotage the replies to Your postings!!!
(b.t.w. You have done more against the turkish muslims
with Your bots and sabotage attempts than anyone on the
net)
If I believed Your ramblings, I would suspect You to be
an "Agent of the criminal Armenians of SDPA/a.s.o."
If I should try to discredit the muslim turks, I could not
do better than You!
|>
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Internet: co...@anatolia.org
|> UUCP : rutgers!uunet!anatolia!cosar
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
PETER VOROBIEFF
><2260...@msu.edu> wrote:
>> Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>> who create them.
>
>you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
>my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
>
>> I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
>> hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
>
A correction. USENERD cannot run without robots. What we need to get rid
of are berserkers.
Zak May
> Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
> who create them.
If you need a robot to propagate your idea in the first place -
you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
> I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
> hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
No. We will get rid of robots on Usenet.
___
Zak.
2260...@msu.edu
dtor...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Darius H Torchinsky) writes:
[lots of stuff deleted]
>.............................................. It's perfectly
>acceptable to talk about the slaughter of Muslims by a despotic
>government, but to splash it across the Internet, on newsgroups
>that have nothing to do with it (i.e. soc.culture.iranian) is
>wrong. It's downright pollution and is just a bit unreasonable.
>Darius Torchinsky
I don't want to start a discussion on this subject but,
don't you think that these stuff are also related to the Iranian as both
countries are a neighbor of Iran. I think it makes perfectly sense to
acknowledge the neighbor of both countries on what is going on.
Tunga
2260...@msu.edu
sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>
><2260...@msu.edu> wrote:
>> Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>> who create them.
>
>If you need a robot to propagate your idea in the first place -
>you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
>my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
>
That is why robots are used. You know many people REALLY work.
>> I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
>> hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
>
>No. We will get rid of robots on Usenet.
>
TUNGA
Jon Tara
>Xref: crash soc.culture.turkish:62178 news.admin.policy:13406
>soc.culture.nordic:33729
>Path:
>crash!newshub.nosc.mil!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!anatolia!anato
>lia.org!cosar
>From: co...@anatolia.org (A. Cosar)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,news.admin.policy,soc.culture.nordic
>Subject: David Hultgren of Sweden and his role in the censorship attempt by
>Stefan Chakerian
>Message-ID: <gate.iRJ...@anatolia.org>
>Date: Sun, 24 Apr 94 22:34:05 PST
>References: <CoGwK...@disce1.uucp> <16F9DC7CC...@msu.edu>
><2p432a...@umbc9.umbc.edu> <16F9E12D3...@msu.edu>
><1994Apr22.1...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> <16FA0F2F5...@msu.edu>
><2pbftk$r...@nic.lth.se>
>Sender: news%anat...@uunet.uu.net
>Followup-To: soc.culture.nordic,misc.test,alt.test
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Distribution: world
>Organization: anatolia.org
>Lines: 16
>In article <2pbftk$r...@nic.lth.se> e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
>>The problem is:
>>Suha/Serdar/RooT is just a single assho.. , and his
>>robot is dumb, but look at the BW he takes and the damage
>>he is doing!
>Any proof for this marvellous flight of imagination? If you don't
>provide one I will have to conclude that you are yet another liar/idiot
>paying lip service to ASALA/SDPA/ARF Armenian terrorists/apologists.
You just provided it. Look at the header above.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Internet: co...@anatolia.org
>UUCP : rutgers!uunet!anatolia!cosar
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
_____________________________________________________________________
Jon Tara|Internet: jt...@crash.cts.com | My child was Kibo of the
|CompuServe: 76477,3422 | month at Usenet Middle
| | School!
Chris Owen
>In article <2pgn21...@umbc9.umbc.edu>
>sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>
>>
>><2260...@msu.edu> wrote:
>>> Robots do have rights as well, as they represent the ideas of the people
>>> who create them.
>>
>>If you need a robot to propagate your idea in the first place -
>>you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
>>my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
>>
>
>Hey, everybody does not have the time to spend posting messages on the network.
>That is why robots are used. You know many people REALLY work.
Oh, come on. Surely even the most clueless newbie knows that the purpose of
electronic forums is supposed to be for discussion and the exchange of
information? Ahmed Cosar, on the other hand, spends his time bombarding
newsgroups with hundreds of often violently abusive postings. He uses false
addresses so that he can't be contacted and ignores pleas to cut down on
the spamming; he's not interested in discussion, either, as any expression
of a view even slightly different from his results in abuse and name-calling.
How can that be described as a _legitimate_ use of the net?
And did you use a robot to compile and post your message? Of course not.
Virtually every posting to Usenet is written by a human. Cosar's aren't -
they're a database of files automatically posted by a machine. His own
input is fairly minimal.
>>> I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
>>> hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
>>
>>No. We will get rid of robots on Usenet.
>>
>
>A very narrow minded discussion style... No other comment!
>
>TUNGA
And a very naive one from you... I agree with Zak, Cosar does need to be
stopped. His spamming is getting out of hand (especially now that he's using
false headers). Censorship's the wrong word for it; if he used his right to
post responsibly, like virtually everyone else, nobody would complain. But
he's killing newsgroups now (look at soc.history) and in so doing, he's
denying other people _their_ rights. How can that possibly be justified?
- Chris Owen
2260...@msu.edu
tr9...@black.ox.ac.uk (Chris Owen) writes:
>
>>I don't want to start a discussion on this subject but,
>>don't you think that these stuff are also related to the Iranian as both
>>countries are a neighbor of Iran. I think it makes perfectly sense to
>>acknowledge the neighbor of both countries on what is going on.
>>
>>Tunga
>
>The death of Turks in eastern Anatolia in 1915 is totally irrelevant to
>anything Iranian. Personally, I think he's just trying to whip up some
>good old fashioned Islamic militancy from the readers of soc.culture.iranian.
>
> What's important isn't geographical closeness, it's relevancy. Your argument
>would mean that it's OK to spam soc.culture.british with rantings about the
>ill-treatment of whales by the Norwegians, who are after all neighbours of
>Britain. I doubt if many s.c.b. readers would agree with that...
You know what would happen if everybody minded their own business and did not
try to keep informed about the stuff going on in the world, especially in their
neighborhood?
Everybody in the world would turn into what Americans have become: thinking
that they are the center of the world, not caring about other countries (and
then a country like Japan evolves in time to kick their ass). The most
important news subject to discuss would be the woman who cut her husband's
penis.
Do you really want to have such a narrow-minded look at the world?
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
>
> Oh, come on. Surely even the most clueless newbie knows that the purpose of
>electronic forums is supposed to be for discussion and the exchange of
>information? Ahmed Cosar, on the other hand, spends his time bombarding
>newsgroups with hundreds of often violently abusive postings. He uses false
>addresses so that he can't be contacted and ignores pleas to cut down on
>the spamming; he's not interested in discussion, either, as any expression
>of a view even slightly different from his results in abuse and name-calling.
>How can that be described as a _legitimate_ use of the net?
>
Well, it all started with nice discussions and presentation of documents. But
once they saw they could not disprove his findings they started attacking him
through mails, trying to delete his postings and calling him names.
Fight fire with fire!
> And did you use a robot to compile and post your message? Of course not.
>Virtually every posting to Usenet is written by a human. Cosar's aren't -
>they're a database of files automatically posted by a machine. His own
>input is fairly minimal.
>
Of course I didn't use a robot. Because I am still discussing the subject with
people who have character. They don't attack my personality because of the
things I write.
>>>> I am sure that with the current speed of technology we will soon start very
>>>> hot debates over this issue of robot rights. :-)
>>>
>>>No. We will get rid of robots on Usenet.
>>>
>>
>>A very narrow minded discussion style... No other comment!
>>
>>TUNGA
>
> And a very naive one from you... I agree with Zak, Cosar does need to be
>stopped. His spamming is getting out of hand (especially now that he's using
>false headers). Censorship's the wrong word for it; if he used his right to
>post responsibly, like virtually everyone else, nobody would complain. But
>he's killing newsgroups now (look at soc.history) and in so doing, he's
>denying other people _their_ rights. How can that possibly be justified?
>
> - Chris Owen
I have to accept that you are right this time. He does sometimes go too far in
fighting fire with fire. But I still emphasize that my intention is not to
justify Cosar's actions, I am only expressing my views on censorship in the
net. The topic got a little out of hand over time.
TUNGA
Chris Owen
If it was about the Kurds, maybe. But not if it's about the Armenians.
Bruce Ediger
>Well, it all started with nice discussions and presentation of documents. But
>once they saw they could not disprove his findings they started attacking him
>through mails, trying to delete his postings and calling him names.
>
>Fight fire with fire!
Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions", and
his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
Not only have "Argic's" documents been disproved, they have been exposed
as forgeries and shams.
Sincerely,
Bruce Ediger
2260...@msu.edu
bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger) writes:
>Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions", and
>his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
>mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
>full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
>
>Not only have "Argic's" documents been disproved, they have been exposed
>as forgeries and shams.
>
>Sincerely,
>Bruce Ediger
I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
TUNGA
David Hultgren
--
Do You realy think that A Cosar does the right thing when
he puts testsites in the "Followup-To:" part in the header?
I have never seen him answer a reply, normaly he just
insult the poster and his ancestors, ignores the posting
and hangs more of his articles on the end of the post. =
Infact, the nearest thing to a answer I have seen was when
he tried to fool me into detonating his mail "bomb"
(and had the guts to do it in a posting where he demanded
proofs of my accusations of him missusing the net!!)
What do You think somebody would have to do to get kicked
out from the net?
Sincerly,
David Hultgren, Space Eng.
Co: Paulsson
Lillekrok 8
S-22738 Lund
SWEDEN
Bruce Ediger
bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger) writes:
>Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions", and
>his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
>mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
>full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
2260...@msu.edu wrote:
>I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
If my position were as weak as yours, I would probably adopt the same tactics.
Facts in the matter are:
1. "Argic" doesn't "discuss" anything: he posts reams of materials that
purport to be arguments from authority.
1A. "Argic" always attempts to argue from authority. That is, he/they try
to post an unassailable mountain of text that is alleged to support
his/their positions. This is an inappropriate form of argumentation
for several easily verified things that are often a part of the dislike
that "Argic" generates (e.g., se...@zuma.uucp isn't a valid email address).
2. "Argic" gratuitously insults anyone whose views are not identical with
"his" own. These insults are the most ignoble and base of racial slurs,
or they don't make any sense at all (most of the people he insults don't
speak or read Turkish).
3. Anyone who bothers to check up on "Argic's" documents finds that "Argic's"
quotations are altered, out of context, incomplete or totally forged.
"Argic" never bothers to respond to these observations, he/they merely
post more of the "documents".
Argue the issues, or go away and come back when you are more interesting.
2260...@msu.edu
bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger) writes:
>If my position were as weak as yours, I would probably adopt the same tactics.
>Facts in the matter are:
>
>1. "Argic" doesn't "discuss" anything: he posts reams of materials that
> purport to be arguments from authority.
>
>1A. "Argic" always attempts to argue from authority. That is, he/they try
> to post an unassailable mountain of text that is alleged to support
> his/their positions. This is an inappropriate form of argumentation
> for several easily verified things that are often a part of the dislike
> that "Argic" generates (e.g., se...@zuma.uucp isn't a valid email address).
>
>2. "Argic" gratuitously insults anyone whose views are not identical with
> "his" own. These insults are the most ignoble and base of racial slurs,
> or they don't make any sense at all (most of the people he insults don't
> speak or read Turkish).
>
>3. Anyone who bothers to check up on "Argic's" documents finds that "Argic's"
> quotations are altered, out of context, incomplete or totally forged.
> "Argic" never bothers to respond to these observations, he/they merely
> post more of the "documents".
>
>
>Argue the issues, or go away and come back when you are more interesting.
You see, the problem is, I am bored of discussing the same issues over and over
again with people that decide to enter a discussion after everybody has already
said what they want to say.
So please don't make me repeat all those stuff we have discussed.
That's why I did not respond to your argument initially. And that is why
I won't respond to your argument again. This is really getting on my nerves.
All I said initially was that : I do not think the way to deal with unwanted
postings is censorship.
Enough said.
TUNGA
Serdar Argic
"Note: This article has just been cancelled by the criminal Armenians
of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
In article <1994Apr25.1...@Lehigh.EDU> pv...@Lehigh.EDU (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:
>A correction. USENERD cannot run without robots. What we need to get rid
>of are berserkers.
Still, that blind spot is typical of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia
criminals/crooks/wackos and historical revisionists and those
criminal Armenians who try to cover up and apologize for their
crimes.
Well, we are still waiting for your views on the Armenian genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people that took place in x-Soviet Armenia and
Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1920, which by the way was presented
in its full form and not just quoted in excerpts. For instance, are you
claiming that these 'Western/Jewish/Armenian' texts of 'it' are incorrect?
If so, please provide us with your corrections.
This is U.S. Ambassador Bristol, not 'rotten vorvor/tarama'.
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they
did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds,
Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by
massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During
the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no
ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or
handle other races under their power."
Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.
This three-day massacre [by Armenians] is recorded in history as the
'March Events' and thousands of Turks, old people, women and children
lost their lives.
Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises
au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.
"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
retreat from Marash."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred
and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at
least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
Poor 'vorvor of SDPA'.
Serdar Argic
'We have never denied the Armenian crime of
genocide inflicted upon 2.5 million Muslim
people between 1914 and 1920.' (Agop Zahoryan)
'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists
a single Turkish soul.' (Sahak Melkonian)
Serdar Argic
"Note: This article has just been cancelled by the criminal Armenians
of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
In article <2pgn21...@umbc9.umbc.edu> sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>If you need a robot to propagate your idea in the first place -
>you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
>my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
More ridicule, I take it? Still not addressing the 'Armenian Sources'
on the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people by the
Armenians in x-Soviet Armenia and Eastern Anatolia. Well, we still
fail to see how you can challenge the following Nazi Armenian
publications on the Armenian genocide of the Muslim people and
Sephardic Jews. Please help, 'rotten zak-zak/vor-vor' of SDPA/
Armenian Church.
Source: "From Sardarapat to Sevres and Lausanne" by Avetis Aharonian. The
Armenian Review, Vol. 16, No. 3-63, Autumn, Sep. 1963, pp. 47-57.
p. 52 (second paragraph).
"Your three chiefs, Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian are the ringleaders
of the bands which have destroyed Tartar villages and have staged
massacres in Zangezour, Surmali, Etchmiadzin, and Zangibasar. This is
intolerable. Look - and here he pointed to a file of official documents
on the table - look at this, here in December are the reports of the last
few months concerning ruined Tartar villages which my representative
Wardrop has sent me. The official Tartar communique speaks of the
destruction of 300 villages."
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
"Yes, of course. I repeat, until this massacre of the Tartars is stopped
and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership I
hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition."
"It is the armed bands led by Dro, Hamazasp and Kulkhandanian who
during the past months have raided and destroyed many Tartar villages in
the regions of Surmali, Etchmiadzin, Zangezour, and Zangibasar. There are
official charges of massacres."
The Armenian publication in Germany, Hairenik, carried statements
as follows:[1]
"Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews)
when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it
becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon
method, these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During the surgical
operation, the flow of blood is a natural thing."
Extracts from a letter dated December 11, 1983, published in the San
Francisco Chronicle.
"We have first hand information and evidence of Armenian atrocities
against our people (Jews). Members of our family witnessed the
murder of 148 members of our family near Erzurum, Turkey, by Armenian
neighbors, bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely Jewish
and/or Muslim. Armenians were in league with Hitler in the last war,
on his premise to grant themselves government if, in return, the
Armenians would help exterminate Jews. Armenians were also hearty
proponents of the anti-Semitic acts in league with the Russian
Communists."
Signed Elihu Ben Levi, Vacaville, California.
[1] James G. Mandalian, 'Dro, Drastamat Kanayan,' in the 'Armenian
Review,' a Quarterly by the Hairenik Association, Inc., Summer:
June 1957, Vol. X, No. 2-38.
Need I go on?
David Hultgren
--
In article <gate.kP7...@anatolia.org>, co...@anatolia.org (A. Cosar) writes:
|> In article <2pgd3m$s...@nic.lth.se> e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
|>
|> >NOTE. If
|> > You reply to the multi-named mr cosar/Serdar/a.s.o.
|> >Remove the misc.test and alt.test from the follow-upps
|> >(it is a pathetic try to sabotage Your replies by sending
|> >You echos from all nodes getting Your post)
|>
|> It is good to see that you finally decided to have a look at the
|> newsgroups you are posting. Consider it a free lecture in how to use
|> "Newsgroups" and "Followup-To" headers.
|>
|> Will you?
|>
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Internet: co...@anatolia.org
|> UUCP : rutgers!uunet!anatolia!cosar
|> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
or try complaining to postm...@gold.tc.umn.edu
(they seems not to respond either, but who knows?)
"Finally accepted to have a look at the newsgroups you are
posting"????
This is amusing comming from you and your robot/alias
crossposting brigade!!!
I can and did read the headers, worse with the others
who trusted you more than me, or the new users (guess they
liked your "lecture" when their accounts where filled)!
(what, no comments about my proof of you terrorizing the
net? (thanks for including evidence in the post!))
You are a disgrace to Turks everywhere, and have done more
bad public relations with your bots and sabotages than
anyone else on the net!!
David Hultgren, Space Eng.
Co: Paulsson
Lillekrok 8
S-22738 Lund
SWEDEN
---------------------------------------------
Since the coward doesnt have the guts to
answer to the real complaints about him missusing the net,
stay tuned for some articles from him whith insults of my
"criminal grandparents" and some kb of articles about
armenian killings and me supporting them! :-(
Tooraj Enayati
>In article <1994Apr26....@black.ox.ac.uk>
>tr9...@black.ox.ac.uk (Chris Owen) writes:
.
.
.
>> What's important isn't geographical closeness, it's relevancy. Your argument
>>would mean that it's OK to spam soc.culture.british with rantings about the
>>ill-treatment of whales by the Norwegians, who are after all neighbours of
>>Britain. I doubt if many s.c.b. readers would agree with that...
>
>You know what would happen if everybody minded their own business and did not
>try to keep informed about the stuff going on in the world, especially in their
>neighborhood?
>
>Everybody in the world would turn into what Americans have become: thinking
>that they are the center of the world, not caring about other countries (and
>then a country like Japan evolves in time to kick their ass). The most
>important news subject to discuss would be the woman who cut her husband's
>penis.
>
>Do you really want to have such a narrow-minded look at the world?
>
>TUNGA
You are missing the whole point. What I want to be and what I wnatto do
is not relevant. What is posted to s.c.i (or any news group) is!
If I want to know about Turkish and Armenian problems I switch to the
right newsgroups. So I have the option I DON'T NEED SOME ONE TO FORCE IT
DOWN IN MY THROAT. (sorry for screaming). What you are saying is just
like saying lets merge soc.calture.turkish and iranian together because
they are neighbours and they need to know about each other.
Sorry for cross posting this to so many groups but I think it relates to
all.
I am still sitting here in amazement that no one _NOT A SINGLE_ person
can stop and idiot moron abusing the net just like this. I think UUNET
is just happy to be making so much money from his postings. Has anyone
thought of that?
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tooraj Enayati Melbourne Australia too...@daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au
Dave Ianianianson
|>
|>
|>
|> "Note: This article has just been cancelled by the criminal Armenians
|> of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
|> attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
|> in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
{usual stuff deleted, for sanity}
Now that it's spaming new.admin.policy might we, just maybe, see somebody
do something?
Dave Ianianianson
Serdar Argic
of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
In article <1994Apr25.1...@Lehigh.EDU> pv...@Lehigh.EDU (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:
>A correction. USENERD cannot run without robots. What we need to get rid
>of are berserkers.
Still, that blind spot is typical of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia
Serdar Argic
Serdar Argic
of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia National Laboratories in a desperate
attempt to cover up the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people
in 1914 and more than one million Azeri people in 1988 (hence, repost)."
In article <2pgn21...@umbc9.umbc.edu> sav...@umbc.edu (Zak May) writes:
>If you need a robot to propagate your idea in the first place -
>you're full of crap, I don't seem to have any trouble defending
>my views on the net without any help from AI programs.
More ridicule, I take it? Still not addressing the 'Armenian Sources'
p. 52 (second paragraph).
p. 54 (fifth paragraph).
Need I go on?
Serdar Argic
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos
>his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
>mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
>full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
Prepare to stand corrected. I had an 8-round discussion with Hasan Mutlu
on the relative economies of Greece and Turkiye. While his postings were
obviously biased (as were mine, no doubt) we both learned quite a bit from
the experience. We had to dig out quite a bit of statistics and data for
the two countries, present explanations, etc etc.
I would not mind these kinds of exchanges one bit. I ended up more
knowledgeable than I was before I posted/read, which is the whole
purpose of usenet. I am sure Hasan learned a few things about Greece
as well, as did most of the other readers.
Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos Kokomo, IN 46904 (317) 451-0815
Software Development Tools, AD/SI c2...@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Delco Electronics/GM Hughes Electronics [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Raffi Kojian
> >So, as I said, Humans have rights, programs do not.
> You see, the problem is, if we only honor things that are in the
constitutional
> rights, half of the things we do throughout our life is illegal and
> unconstitutional and etc.
Not really. The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness pretty
much cover it all. The bill of rights goes even further. So try and think of
anything missing. You can't unless you say robots, which don't deserve or need
rights.
> You MUST have SOME ability to reach conclusions and results by yourself!
> Don't always wait for a constitution to cover the subject.
I ALWAYS reach conclusions by myself. Do you know what a libertarian is?
> TUNGA
n_w$$h
Serdar Argic
>Not really. The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
>pretty much cover it all. The bill of rights goes even further.
A typical 'ounal/kocaoglan of SDPA/Armenian Church' in action. Your
criminal Armenian grandparents amply admitted their crime of genocide
they perpetrated against 2.5 million Muslim people in 1914. Why do you
SDPA/Armenian Church crooks deny it now?
In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Nazi Armenians in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion
had grown into eight battalions of 30,000-strong under the command of Dro
(the butcher), who was the former dictator of x-Soviet Armenia and the
architect of the cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds
between 1914-1920. An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious
Dashnak Party leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged
by this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of
extermination of the Jews.
This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an
"encore" performance staged by the Armenians during WWI when they
exterminated 2.5 million Muslim people.
And today...
Source: Newsweek, 16 March 1992
T H E F A C E O F A M A S S A C R E
Ethnic strife escalates dramatically in Azerbaijan
Azerbaijan was a charnel house again last week: a place
of mourning refugees and dozens of mangled corpses
dragged to a makeshift morgue behind the mosque. They
^^^^
were ordinary Azerbaijani men, women and children of
^^^^^^========^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Khojaly, a small village in war-torn Nagorno-Karabakh
^^^^^^^
overrun by Armenian forces on Feb. 25-26. Many were
killed at close range while trying to flee; some had
their faces mutilated, others were scalped. While the
victims' families mourned,
Photo: `We will never forgive the Armenians': Azeri woman
mourn a victim.
By Pascal Privat with Steve Le Vine in Moscow.
Raffi Kojian
network.
> That is why robots are used. You know many people REALLY work.
Tunga, this is perhaps one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Are you
saying that busy people who are unable to participate in conversations should
leave stereos with their recorded words on a bus seat and this is protected by
freedom of speach? And then what if the recording shouts out HEY NIGGER! Or
YOU SMELLY WOP? Then what? Your arguement lacks common sense.
> A very narrow minded discussion style... No other comment!
A good self-portrait it would seem.
n_w$$h
Hakki Kocabas
>Bendeki Kuran mealinden biri loop'a girmis Diyanet I$leri tercumesi
>digeri de Yamayasa kurucusu Amerikali'larin Ingilizce tercumesi.
>Namussuzlar herhalde es gecmislerdir Turk'lerin cihani yoneteceginin
>emredildigini.
>
Sen Allah'in her "emr"'ini Kuran'da ararsan i$in i$ :->ROTFL
Fizik ogrenmeye gelince gozlerin hic bir cevirmedik sayfa
birakmazken, Allah'in "emr"'lerine gelince niye gozlerini
mahmurla$tirirsin ?
Bak "emr" gecen ayetlere...Allah'in "EMR" kelimesini nasil
kullandigini anlamak icin....
Here is a tip for you: Belki bu kavram Fizik'te de i$ine yarar..
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
>
>Orhan Yenen
Gregory Taylor
>Prepare to stand corrected. I had an 8-round discussion with Hasan Mutlu
>on the relative economies of Greece and Turkiye. While his postings were
>obviously biased (as were mine, no doubt) we both learned quite a bit from
>the experience.
But Spiros, are you assuming that Hasan B-> Mutlu and the twitching imaginary
community spawned from the fingers of Ahmet-Koray-Suha-Serdar-RooT are one and
the same? You do Mutlu a considerable disservice by comparing the two of them.
During the brief periods that something like a Cosar emerges from his duckblind
of 'botscreed, he appears to be the run-of-the-mill socially deponent crank
who rises only to deny the handiwork of his system and lay out some lame
insults and do the usual revisionist things. The cluefully challenged dude
who posts his sorry life away from the "safety" of a downstream feed from
anatolia.org has merely inherited a similar set of ah... "scholarly" material,
probably from the same batch of Turkish scriveners who approve the visas of
"scholars" allowed access to the primary materials.
--
I could be happy now. From my seat in the airplane/I could imagine the full
enclosures of people/contented and with no needs beyond/private moments
walking the fenceline/before joining the others in the night enclosure
/that is the final shape of countries/Gregory Taylor/gta...@fullfeed.com
Kerem Mustafa Un
Seni tebrik ederim. Bir soru sordun bunca inancli arkadsin bir tanesinden bile cevap gelmedi. Bence daha kolay sorular sor. Mesela iki kere iki kac eder falan gibi.
KEREM
Raffi Kojian
> >Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions", and
> >his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
> >mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
> >full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
> >Not only have "Argic's" documents been disproved, they have been exposed
> >as forgeries and shams.
> >Sincerely,
> >Bruce Ediger
> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
> TUNGA
Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
n_w$$h
Raffi Kojian
> >Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions", and
> >his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly, not to
> >mention that the "documents" presented are out of context, doctored,
> >full of typos or deliberate distortions, or are outright forgeries.
> >Not only have "Argic's" documents been disproved, they have been exposed
> >as forgeries and shams.
> >Sincerely,
> >Bruce Ediger
> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
> TUNGA
Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
n_w$$h
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>
>> Hey, everybody does not have the time to spend posting messages on the
>network.
>> That is why robots are used. You know many people REALLY work.
>
>Tunga, this is perhaps one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. Are you
>saying that busy people who are unable to participate in conversations should
>leave stereos with their recorded words on a bus seat and this is protected by
>freedom of speach? And then what if the recording shouts out HEY NIGGER! Or
>YOU SMELLY WOP? Then what? Your arguement lacks common sense.
>
sentence of a long discussion that developed in several messages.
>> A very narrow minded discussion style... No other comment!
>
>A good self-portrait it would seem.
>
that you don't like from the discussion and then try to comment on it without
thinking if you have preserved the original ideas by presenting only that
sentence.
Smart thing to do!
>n_w$$h
By the way, why don't you find yourself a proper signature.
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
>
>> TUNGA
>
>Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
>
>n_w$$h
>
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
>
>> TUNGA
>
>Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
>
>n_w$$h
>
you can ever make sense.
TUNGA
orhan yenen
Anlat, anlat, heyacanli oluyor.
I$ine geldigi gibi de kivirt, nasil olsa alistik.
Yazdiklarina dikkat etsen, boyle sacmalamak zorunda kalmazsin.
Nette Eglenen
Orhan Yenen
A. Cosar
Warren Burstein
>
>You know what would happen if everybody minded their own business and did not
>try to keep informed about the stuff going on in the world,
>especially in their neighborhood?
I agree. Let's eliminate soc.culture.* and force everyone to post
everthing to soc.culture. And let's have supervision to make sure
they read the articles, too.
--
/|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem
|__/__/_/ is a very publishing house mathom.
|warren@ But the cabbie
A Akleman
thereby ignoring them, in the end, they'll be futilely posting to
nobody!...
Wouldn't that work - EVERYONE putting them on their kill-files - just
ignoring them - and not answering... That should work...
In fact, anyone who answers one of them can be put on a kill file as
well...
So we won't hear of them at all...
Those who want to argue with them can do so happily, safely killed by
everyone else...
Kubilay (Akleman)
Peter V.Vorobieff
--
Thus spake Kalmoth the Avenger, Kinsman of the Slain.
DISCLAIMER: All opinions expressed are neither mine nor
yours nor my employer's.
Serdar Argic
>Absolute crap. "Argic" has never been involved in "nice discussions",
>and his/their "presentation of documents" has been less than mannerly,
Coming from a self-admitted/exposed anti-Muslim 'Armenian Church
moronian of SDPA' who even denies the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people in x-Soviet Armenia and Eastern Anatolia,
it is rather amusing. As for your non-existent 'screws':
Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers,
Inc., New York (1952).
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).
'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
"We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The
man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse.
I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and
went inside.
The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for
its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an
iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black
with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As
the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face
up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what
was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted,
as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so
I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his
slashed genitals."
p. 363 (first paragraph).
'How many people lived there?'
'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
'Did you see any Turk officers?'
'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'
"The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me -
Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into
laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
have been.
From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last
scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags,
looms, even spinning-wheels.
'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must
leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And
for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains.
Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in
a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"
p. 354.
"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
Moslem villages."
p. 358.
"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."
p. 360.
"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet
down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said
Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'
Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though
I heard our Utica brass roar.
As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
The came a shrill wailing.
Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.
'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.
At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and
tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."
p. 361 (fourth paragraph).
"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair,
large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble
where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet
had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between
the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun
dress.
The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He
lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the
pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed
just below his neck, into the spine.
There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was
empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking
colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."
p. 358.
"...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands,
Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would
break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...
An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."
>>>Thanksgiving will soon arrive, the genocide of millions of Turkeys
>>>has already commenced in the quest to satisfy the bloodthirsty Americans.
>>
>>Soon, the genocide of 'killi/kokulu ermeni karilari' will commence,
>>'Kocaoglan of SDPA/x-Soviet Armenia'.
>So you do admit to wanting to commit genocide on the Armenians (ermeni)?
Did you moronian think that the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million
of our people would go unpunished? It is "our" land. It is "our"
property. Which means that we support the claims of the Turks and
Kurds to return to their lands in x-Soviet Armenia, to determine
their own future as a nation in their own homeland. Now tell us,
Mr 'compulsive liar': Who slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people
in x-Soviet Armenia and Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1920?
Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for
arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such
search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible tortures
had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where
valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware of the
existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population
of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to
the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks."
(Mikael Kaprilian - 1919)
>You guys are a two-faced pack of liars.
That is the result of watching your moronian face in the mirror
too much. Remember, the Armenians tore apart the eastern provinces
of Anatolia, massacred 2.5 million defenseless Muslim women, children
and elderly people, burned thousands of Turkish and Kurdish villages
and exterminated the entire Muslim population of x-Soviet Armenia
between 1914-1920. Such outrageous sleight of hand that is still
employed today in x-Soviet Armenia brings a depth and verification
to the Muslim Holocaust that is hard to match.
Source: Jorge Blanco Villalta, 'Ataturk,' TKK, 1979, pg. 234.
"They [Armenians] did not refrain from giving in to their racial
hatred and committing acts of cruelty and massacres against the
Moslem population, which were encouraged by the 'Tashnak' party,
mortal enemies of Turkey."
A merciless massacre of the civilian population of the small Azeri
town of Khojali (Pop. 6000) in Karabagh, Azerbaijan, is reported to
have taken place on the night of Feb. 28 under a coordinated military
operation of the 366th mechanized division of the CIS army and the
Armenian insurgents. Close to 1000 people are reported to have been
massacred. Elderly and children were not spared. Many were badly beaten
and shot at close range. A sense of rage and helplessness has overwhelmed
the Azeri population in face of the well armed and equipped Armenian
insurgency. The neighboring Azeri city of Aghdam outside of the
Karabagh region has come under heavy Armenian artillery shelling. City
hospital was hit and two pregnant women as well as a new born infant
were killed. Azerbaijan is appealing to the international community to
condemn such barbaric and ruthless attacks on its population and its
sovereignty.
>And you're not even a real human.
Tell your SDPA/x-Soviet Armenian Government lies/crap to our
grandparents cold-bloodedly slaughtered by the Armenians in 1914.
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they
did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds,
Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by
massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During
the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no
ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or
handle other races under their power."
Serdar Argic
Serdar Argic
>Oh, come on. Surely even the most clueless newbie knows that the purpose
>of electronic forums is supposed to be for discussion and the exchange of
>information?
Every once in a while, you say the right thing. That's why we still
fail to see how you can challenge 'The Guardian' on the Armenian
genocide of more than one million Azeri people.
Source: THE GUARDIAN, 2 September 1993
NOWHERE TO HIDE FOR AZERI REFUGEES
Armenia is pushing a new wave of displaced people towards Iran.
Jonathan RUGMAN in Kanliq, south-west Azerbaijan, reports
On the main road south through Kubatli province, thousands of
men, women and children are packed into trucks at an Azeri
checkpoint waiting for permission to leave. Helicopters shuttle
in and out with the wounded, while a group of women sit wailing
at the roadside, tearing at their bloodstained faces with their
fingernails in a frenzy of grief.
A new exodus of refugees is under way towards Azerbaijan's
border with Iran as Armenia forces continue ignoring United
Nations demands that they stop their offensive. UN officials,
rejecting a death toll of 3,000 usually quoted by news
agencies, say at least 10,000 have been killed since the
fighting began in 1988.
Azerbaijan's defence ministry said yesterday that 18 villages
in the province had been captured and Kubatli town was still
resisting attack. Zangelan province is also reported to be
under assault.
All recent Armenian seizures are south-west of the disputed
territory of Nagorno-Karabakh, adding to the gains in the
regions of Jebrail and Fizuli last month.
Most of the current wave of refugees were sheltering in the
village of Kanliq outside Kubatli when Armenian tanks attacked
on Monday morning. Faisal Zeynalev, a 37-year-old doctor, said
16 or 17 civilians had been shot dead at close range and that
about 500 had been taken prisoner.
Dr Zeynalev reached an Azeri checkpoint on foot, carrying
nothing but his identity papers and a dusty anorak.
"The Armenians behaved like drunkards," he said, adding that he
had to leave the bodies of his two brothers behind, killed as
they were getting into a waiting car.
The rest of his family, including his two children, have
already been evacuated and he does not know where they are.
Sahin Latifov, a chemistry teacher, aged 34, from Kanliq, said
he had also lost contact with his wife and children. Although
he had packed his bags for departure, the attack was so sudden
everything had been left behind.
"I heard an explosion and then they started shelling the
village," Mr Latifov said.
"There are a lot of dead bodies and we can't take them. When I
reached the top of the hill I saw my house burning and I
couldn't go back."
Several eyewitnesses confirmed that Kanliq had been set alight,
a common practice as Armenian forces create a cordon sanitaire
in the villages around Nagorno-Karabakh.
Kanliq is just eight miles from the Armenian border and the
strong suspicion is that this week's attack was orchestrated
not by Karabakh Armenians but by Armenia.
"From time immemorial they have wanted to create a greater
Armenia," Dr Zeynalev said. "Armenia is a member of the
Commonwealth of Independent States, it has a big diaspora
lobby, but we have nothing."
On Tuesday local officials were given the extraordinary order
to prevent their civilians from leaving the Kanliq area for
fear that it would encourage Azeri soldiers to retreat.
"People have to leave in their own place," Captain Dunyamaliev
said, attempting to pacify a traffic jam of refugees up to two
miles long. At one point fighting broke out and shots were
fired as people waved their Soviet passports in his face and
screamed to be allowed through.
Scores of trucks resorted to crossing dirt tracks over the
surrounding hills.
While Azeri resistance crumbles, Armenian forces are now so
close to Azerbaijan's border with Iran that Armenian rockets
are travelling in an arc over the frontier highway, the escape
route for refugees travelling east.
"The road could be cut at any moment," said Louis Rivera from
the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. He added
that up to 80,000 people in Kubatli and Zangelan provinces will
be surrounded if the Armenians advance.
In the frontier town of Goradiz, formerly home to 10,000
people, about 100 are staying on in the hope that the Armenians
will not dare travel so far south.
The surrounding countryside is littered with the carcasses of
livestock killed in the stampede of humans and animals escaping
the fighting.
About 20 Azeri soldiers, half of them wearing training shoes,
have taken over an orchard outside Goradiz and made it a base
for the town's defence. Their commander is Captain Bagir who
was born in Armenia but forced to leave in the tit-for-tat
population expulsion between Armenia and Azerbaijan in 1988.
The captain explained a year-and-a-half of Azeri defeats by
pointing out that most Muslim conscripts to the former Soviet
army had only been allowed to perform menial and non-combat
tasks.
He said that when Russian troops withdrew from Azerbaijan they
damaged a lot of the equipment they left behind, and he
repeated the allegation made by every Azeri that Armenian
forces are supported by Russia.
"We can hear the Armenians speaking perfect Russian on their
Radios," the captain said.
Diplomats in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, say soldiers of
fortune from the Russian Seventh Army have been fighting on the
Armenian side, but that both parties have used mercenaries.
This week the UNHCR began distributing 4,000 tents and 50,000
blankets to those displaced in the recent hostilities. The
organisation said about 250,000 Azeris have been displaced so
far this year and about 1 million since the conflict began in
1988.
[Photo:] Casualties of war... A man carries his elderly mother
in the capital Baku. The UN says about 250,000 Azeris have been
displaced this year. Photograph: Sipa
[Map: Shows areas invaded by Armenians]
Serdar Argic
>1. "Argic" doesn't "discuss" anything: he posts reams of materials that
> purport to be arguments from authority.
You are a typical 'Armenian crook of SDPA'. If you prefer to imagine
that 99.99% of the scholars are not being taken seriously in this
universe, Mr Mouthpiece, be my guest. See, you look like 'Armenian
Church/SDPA' wackos on the net. In summary, your Armenian grandparents
committed unheard-of crimes, resorted to all conceivable methods of
despotism, organized massacres, poured petrol over babies and burned
them, raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound
hand and foot, took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated
personal property and real estate. And today, they put Azeris in the
most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history.
>
The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
>
Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
-------------------------------------------
>
Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
Agdam
------
>
Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
the map.
>
.......
>
As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
apart.
.......
>
I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
.......
>
"The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
......
>
"It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
just entered their trap."
>
The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
from the Armenians.
>
"The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
daughter fall right by me."
>
People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
>
.......
>
"The Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people" is everywhere.
Don't you have your own brain? No, I take that back - you don't.
Source: "The Turkish Times," April 1, 1990, No. 16, p. 11.
"Mass Grave of Turks Massacred by Armenians Discovered"
Source: Prof A. Balkan, "The Genocide of 2.5 Million Muslim Inhabitants
of Eastern Anatolia and Russian Armenia," 1972, Metin Publishers,
Istanbul, Turkiye.
p. 27.
"The Commander of the 15th Army Corps wrote that x-Soviet Armenian
army had attacked many Turkish villages with artillery and machine
guns, that the local people's goods and animals had been usurped, that
young women had been taken away, the women and children had been
tortured to death in the mountains, that these attacks on the
properties, lives and honor of the Muslims were still being
perpetrated, and requested the Armenian Government to put an end
to them. This appeal by Kazim Karabekir Pasha was left unanswered."
p. 34.
"In spite of all the good will that Mustafa Kemal showed, the French
occupation forces continued arming the Armenians to suppress the
Turkish people, and were giving them free rein to attack Muslim
villages and to kill the peasants. In Mustafa Kemal's words,
'The massacre against Muslims that was being perpetrated by the
French and the Armenians in Maras was enough to terrorize all
humanity.'
When similar events broke out in Urfa, Mustafa Kemal said:
'...the French who hide behind the mask of civilization and the
Armenians who serve them as examples have started a cruel
massacre among the Muslim people in and around Urfa.'
On 3 March, Mustafa Kemal expressed his concerns in these words:
'In Cilicia, Armenians are being armed by the French and are being
set loose upon the Muslim people. They have locked many Muslims in
churches, the fate of these Muslims is not known, and many women
have been raped.'
p. 35.
When nationalists started an armed defense against such Armenian
atrocities in Maras, Mustafa Kemal stated the following about the
Armenian massacres of the Muslims:
'Armenians who are armed by the French forces who have occupied the
southern areas are brought together under the protectorate of France.
They are attacking the Muslims in their vicinity with a desire for
genocide and are resorting to a merciless policy of murders and
massacres. The Armenians who collaborated with the French forces of
General Keret razed to the ground an ancient Muslim city like Maras
and tortured and slaughtered thousands of defenseless mothers and
children. Armenians are responsible for this savagery unprecedented
in history, and the Muslims fought against them and defended
themselves to preserve their honor and lives...'
Admiral Bristol followed closely the events in the Cilicia region
because he was in contact with the American representatives who
witnessed the events. The reports that he sent to Washington D.C.
show how accurate Mustafa Kemal's observations were. What is more,
the French Commander-in-Chief in Syria and High Commissioner
General Gouraud also wrote to Paris about the massacres committed
by the Armenians, and his reports serve to corroborate Mustafa
Kemal's statements."
>Why do you insist on
>arguing points of logic with an authority based argument? You're not
>helping yourself.
Who says so? You net-clown? Again, where is your non-existent list
of scholars and scholarly sources for your crap/lies? What a moron...
Source: Prof A. Balkan, "The Genocide of 2.5 Million Muslim Inhabitants
of Eastern Anatolia and Russian Armenia," 1972, Metin Publishers,
Istanbul, Turkiye.
p. 92.
"Following the occupation by Armenians after the Russian evacuation,
Armenians have burned and destroyed all Moslem villages and massacred
the people. This horrible deed, was not committed only West of Border
93 (The border at the time of 1877 - 1878 Ottoman - Russian War) but
also East of the border in Erivan, Gumru, Kars, Kagizman, Sarikamis
and partly in Ardahan and Ahilek in all the villages. The massacres
are confirmed by documentary proof and evidence.
Part of the incidents and occurrences investigated by military troops
in the operation regions are outlined below:
a. On 29 April, Moslems sent to Ahilek from Gumru on 5,000 carts,
were completely massacred by Armenians.
b. Villages of Zarudsad (Arpacay) district and of Melik were burnt
and inhabitants were massacred.
c. Again early in April, 67 villages of Suragil district were razed
to the ground.
d. An Armenian force, 18,000-strong, equipped with machine guns and
forty artillery guns in Kulp and vicinity, destroyed all villages
in Kulp and Erivan region, East of Kagizman.
e. On 1 May, a 28,000-strong Armenian cavalry murdered over 16,000
women, children and men in Sibes, Tepe, Duzkent and region. On
25 April, 5,700 Moslems from Subusan village East of Kars were
massacred by axes and knives and the corpses burnt. In Magisto
and Alaca villages, over 7,000 women, children and men were
murdered with the same brutality. All the inhabitants of Tekneli,
Haci Halil, Kalul, Harabe, Dagor, Milanli, Ketak, Alaca and Ilham
villages were massacred by Armenians.
f. On 1 May, the inhabitants of Dangal, Acarca, Mulabi, Morcahit,
Badigna, Havur, Koros villages burnt. Villages around Samran
Northeast of Erivan and around Boguylu North of Kinefski over
Arpacay were burnt and the inhabitants massacred. Many of our
soldiers were prisoners of war at Kars and many in Gumru were
bayonetted to death by Armenians in the presence of other Turkish
soldiers.
g. In short, the majority of the Moslem villages of Kars, Sarikamis,
Erivan, Ahilkelek, and Kagizman have been destroyed by Armenians.
h. The above are only small part of the crimes of Armenians in the
region. But these can be viewed as examples of the overall scene."
>Also, you include only a small portion from my post, and delete all of the
>substantive material.
Are you suffering from a severe case of myopia? Any mirror around?
Just answer the question: Who slaughtered 2.5 million Muslim people
in x-Soviet Armenia and Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1920?
Allow me. Referring to notes from the personal diary of Russian
General L. Odishe Liyetze on the Muslim front, he wrote,
"On the nights 11-12 March alone Armenian butchers bayoneted and
axed to death Muslim people in areas surrounding Erzincan. These
barbars threw their victims into pits, most likely dug according to
their sinister plans to extinguish Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant
counted and unearthed 200 such pits. This is an act against our world
of civilization."
On March 12, Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Muslim Holocaust),
"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
alas! mainly of women and children."
"The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and
the act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
Large holes were dug and the defenceless Turks were slaughtered like
animals next to the holes. Later, the murdered Turks were thrown into
the holes. The Armenian who stood near the hole would say when the
hole was filled with the corpses: 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this
hole can take ten more.' Thus ten more Turks would be cut into pieces,
thrown into the hole, and when the hole was full it would be covered
over with soil.
The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
destroyed the entire population, together with the villages."
>Why did you do that? A friendly note, "Serdar":
>if you respond rationally, you will not irritate and anger so many.
>Please don't delete the material in my posts, only to focus on a phrase taken
>out of context. It makes you appear foolish, and an easier target for
>debunking your arguments.
And when you have finished blatantly 'lying' I'd suggest you address
the Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people. Will you?
Source: The Times, 2 March 1992
CORPSES LITTER HILLS IN KARABAKH
ANATOL LIEVEN COMES UNDER FIRE WHILE FLYING WITH AZERBAIJANI FORCES TO
INVESTIGATE THE ALLEGED MASS KILLINGS OF REFUGEES BY ARMENIAN TROOPS...
As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as
they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to
journalists afterwards, showed DOZENS OF CORPSES lying in various parts
of the hills.
The Azerbaijanis claim that AS MANY AS 1000 have died in a MASS KILLING
of AZERBAIJANIS fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians
last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death
or missing...
Seven of us squatted in the cabin of an Azerbaijani M24 attack helicopter
as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings. Suddenly there
was a thump against the underside of the aircraft, a red flash of tracer
ripped past the starboard wing, and the helicopter rocked sharply. We
swung round, and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon
under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire.
We had been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post. We swung round
again, tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a
valley. The brown earth swooped around our heads, the helicopter swung
round again and followed the contours of the ground. Our cannon fired
repeated blasts.
Later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting
had landed successfully at Nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed
enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh, to pick up some of the dead. We had, in
fact, been attacked both by ground fire and by an Armenian helicopter.
I had seen the Armenian helicopter intermittently through the window,
its cannons firing, but had thought - mistakenly - that it was on
"our side". Our group of Western journalists had embarked on a
search-and-rescue flight that had become a combat mission.
Our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two
M24 Soviet attack helicopters in the Azerbaijani service, nicknamed
flying crocodiles for their armour. Our party was in the second
crocodile. The civilian helicopter's job was to land in the mountains
and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The attack helicopters
were there to give covering fire if necessary.
The operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the Soviet
armed forces because our pilot was a Russian officer. An Azerbaijani
official told us that there were now five former Soviet military
helicopters -and their pilots- fighting for Azerbaijan. "They have
signed contracts to fly for us," he said. The helicopter we engaged
in combat was most probably flown by a brother-officer of our Russian
pilot, but fighting for the Armenians.
We had taken off just before 5pm on Saturday from Agdam airfield, an
heated for the Armenian-controlled mountains of Karabakh, a sheer
white wall in the distance. The civilian helicopter picked up four
corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an
Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies
on the hillsides. We then took off again in a hurry and speed back
towards Azerbaijani lines. Azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before
the plain - and safety - gazed up at us as we passed.
Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look the bodies the
civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were
covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor
mortis. They had been shot.
What did our Russian pilot think of the tragedy, our close shave,
and the war in Nagorno-Karabakh? He gave us CHEERFUL GRIN, POLITELY
DECLINED TO ANSWER QUESTIONS, AND MARCHED OFF TO HIS DINNER.
Serdar Argic
> If it was about the Kurds, maybe. But not if it's about the Armenians.
>The death of Turks in eastern Anatolia in 1915 is totally irrelevant to
>anything Iranian. Personally, I think he's just trying to whip up some
>good old fashioned Islamic militancy from the readers of soc.culture.iranian.
Pardon us? The Armenian genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people took
place in "x-Soviet Armenia" and Eastern Anatolia. The Armenian genocide
of more than one million Azeri people took place in Karabag. And
there is no 'soc.culture.xsovietarmenia' to properly discuss the
traditional and historical Armenian barbarism and fascism. Got a
map?
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard R. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis,
1926
Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
against the Turkish people in Armenia.
2."Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.
3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American
Officer.
4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs
include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister
Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The
official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British
High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.
"I killed Turks (Azeris) by every means possible. Yet
it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The
best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw
them into wells and then fill the wells with big &
heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women,
men and children, threw big stones down on top of
them. They must never live on this earth."
--One of the architects of the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people reporting in 1918.
SOURCE: A. Lalayan, Revolutsionniy Vostok
(Revolutionary East), No: 2-3,
Moscow, 1936
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Muslim.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Neal Pendleton
|> In <16FA4AA2A...@msu.edu> 2260...@msu.edu writes:
|> >
|> >You know what would happen if everybody minded their own business and did not
|> >try to keep informed about the stuff going on in the world,
|> >especially in their neighborhood?
|>
|> I agree. Let's eliminate soc.culture.* and force everyone to post
|> everthing to soc.culture. And let's have supervision to make sure
|> they read the articles, too.
One of the wonderful things about newsgroups is that _I_ am able to
determine exactly which subjects are of interest to my welfare. If
we stretch 22601TKI's reasoning just a little, everything posted on
the net is important. Why not just do away with newsgroups?
Neal
Stefan Chakerian
A Akleman <akl...@festival.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>Surely if everyone puts Argic (/Cosar/whatever) on their kill files -
Not everyone has software with kill files! There are several sites
that either don't have the software or have Usenet "dilettantes"
that want to read occasionally but not enough to even know about kill
files. Those people become discouraged, which ultimately hurts Usenet.
Keep Usenet for the PEOPLE not for robots.
stef
--
Stefan Chakerian Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
sch...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov
A. Jaber
: In article <Cp1oq...@festival.ed.ac.uk>,
: A Akleman <akl...@festival.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
: >Surely if everyone puts Argic (/Cosar/whatever) on their kill files -
: ...
: Not everyone has software with kill files! There are several sites
: that either don't have the software or have Usenet "dilettantes"
: that want to read occasionally but not enough to even know about kill
: files. Those people become discouraged, which ultimately hurts Usenet.
: Keep Usenet for the PEOPLE not for robots.
: stef
: --
Does that include David Davidian as well
: Stefan Chakerian Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
: sch...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov
A Jaber ( Who put Serdar, Artun, Mutlu and Davidian in a Kil File)
A Akleman
: Stefan Chakerian (sch...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov) wrote:
: : In article <Cp1oq...@festival.ed.ac.uk>,
: : A Akleman <akl...@festival.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
: : >Surely if everyone puts Argic (/Cosar/whatever) on their kill files -
: : ...
: : Not everyone has software with kill files! There are several sites
: : that either don't have the software or have Usenet "dilettantes"
: : that want to read occasionally but not enough to even know about kill
: : files. Those people become discouraged, which ultimately hurts Usenet.
Sorry, I stand corrected!
: : Keep Usenet for the PEOPLE not for robots.
: : stef
: : --
: Does that include David Davidian as well
: : Stefan Chakerian Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
: : sch...@tesuque.cs.sandia.gov
: A Jaber ( Who put Serdar, Artun, Mutlu and Davidian in a Kil File)
Well, I personally put ALL of them on my killfile, just because the
whole debate seemed so pointless...
Kubilay
Raffi Kojian
> My argument will of course seem to lack sense if you just evaluate the final
> sentence of a long discussion that developed in several messages.
I did not take your sentence out of context, and it was enough to show your
arguement was basically silly, since you couldn't defend your hero Cosar
properly. (ie. NOBODY needs a robot to discuss things for them, they are not
getting anything out of the conversation while they take away from the
enjoyment of others.) That is the point you have not and cannot address.
> This is what I call a narrow-minded discussion style: Just choose one
sentence that you don't like from the discussion and then try to comment on it
without thinking if you have preserved the original ideas by presenting only
that sentence.
I found no reason to reply to your full text, just as I found no other reason
to reply to next comment, which I thank you for.
> Smart thing to do!
>
> >n_w$$h
> By the way, why don't you find yourself a proper signature.
>
>
> TUNGA
Look who's talking...
I love my sig, it is symbolic. Your silly attack on it shows what type of
person you aren't.
n_w$$h
Raffi Kojian
You mean you fail to realise that I am laughing in your
face for implying that you have any type of objectivity?
(which you accomplish by questioning someone elses)
n_w$$h
Raffi Kojian
> >> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
> >> TUNGA
> >Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
> >n_w$$h
> I am starting to wonder if you EVER make sense!
> TUNGA
You mean you fail to realise that I am laughing in your
Raffi Kojian
2260...@msu.edu writes
> >> I always respect an objective (!!?!?) view.
> >> TUNGA
> >Likewise (!!?!?) TUNGA.
> >n_w$$h
> I am starting to wonder if you EVER make sense!
> TUNGA
You mean you fail to realise that I am laughing in your
Serdar Argic
>A correction. USENERD cannot run without robots. What we need to get rid
>of are berserkers.
Still, that blind spot is typical of SDPA/Armenian Church/Sandia
criminals/crooks/wackos and historical revisionists and those
criminal Armenians who try to cover up and apologize for their
crimes.
Well, we are still waiting for your views on the Armenian genocide of
2.5 million Muslim people that took place in x-Soviet Armenia and
Eastern Anatolia between 1914 and 1920, which by the way was presented
in its full form and not just quoted in excerpts. For instance, are you
claiming that these 'Western/Jewish/Armenian' texts of 'it' are incorrect?
If so, please provide us with your corrections.
This is U.S. Ambassador Bristol, not 'rotten vorvor/tarama'.
Source: "U.S. Library of Congress": 'Bristol Papers' - General
Correspondence Container #34.
"While the Dashnaks [x-Soviet Armenian Government] were in power they
did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking Kurds,
Turks and Tartars; by committing outrages against the Moslems; by
massacring the Moslems; and robbing and destroying their homes. During
the last two years the Armenians in Russian Caucasus have shown no
ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or
handle other races under their power."
Source: Bristol Papers, General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Source: F. Kazemzadeh, "The Struggle for Transcaucasia," (New York, 1951),
pp. 69-77.
This three-day massacre [by Armenians] is recorded in history as the
'March Events' and thousands of Turks, old people, women and children
lost their lives.
Source: Quoted by General Hamelin in a letter to the High Commissioner,
February 2, 1919, in the official history, "Les Armees Francaises
au Levant," vol. 1, p. 122.
"They [Armenians] burned and destroyed many Turkish villages as punitive
measures in their advance and practically all Turkish villages in their
retreat from Marash."
Source: John Dewey, "The Turkish Tragedy", The New Republic, Volume 40,
November 12, 1928, pp. 268-269.
"They [Armenians] boasted of having raised an army of one hundred
and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war, and that they burned at
least a hundred Turkish villages and exterminated their population."
Poor 'vorvor of SDPA'.
2260...@msu.edu
You don't have to stretch anything anywhere. If you think that Iranian would
not be interested at things happening between Armenians and the Turks, then
you need some serious education on world politics.
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
>
>How do You know if he had a point to make, You said You never
>read his mail!!!
>
>
>The reasons we are pissed is his behavior!
>(read some of his junk and You will understand)
>
>--
>David Hultgren, Space Eng.
>
Oh, I am sure he has a very good point to make! You know why?
Simple. Look at his most aggressive opposers:
Spiros Chakerian
David Davidian
Raffi Kojian
Spiros (something, I forgot his last name)
What is common between these people?
I can see why you people are pissed at his behavior, but that still doesn't
give you people the right to cancel his postings.
Let me restate my suggestion: Just ignore him. If everybody could ignore
his postings, don't reply to his messages, don't write messages regarding
his personality, and get rid of that stupid alt.fan.serdar-argic,
I am sure that he will get bored of what he is doing very soon. What keeps
him going on is the attention he gets!
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
>
>Well, in all letters he has "replied" to, regardless of
>poster or even content (heard about his robots who flames
>on post containing keywords?), he just takes a line or two
>from the beginning, cuts it in half and starts saying
>something as "That's the whole point that you SDPA
>wackos/crooks invariably miss. So here's more "crimes of
>your fascist Armenian grandparents"
>
><insert many times posted articles here>
>
>If you are realy lucky, he will "misspell" Your name so it
>means something insulting on turkish!
>(this probably means this is one of the few letters he has
>read personally)
>
>
>Arguing? he has never answered a reply that I have seen!
>(insults is another matter)
>reposting articles 3 or 4 times the same day to a group is
>another charming way of "arguing" that he used!
>
>
>One question I never have heard You or any other of its few
>admirers answer, what do You think would happen if he
>rised the production capacity of his robots to, say 100
>times their capacity of today? 1000 times?
>Or even worse, say that more "special intrest groups"
>started using robots (think about a armenian robot and
>the serdar robot automatically posting and replying to
>each other!!)
>
>
>
>--
>David Hultgren, Space Eng.
>
ignored. The more people write about him, the more people reply him, the
more he posts.
Look at what has happened! It all started in one or two groups. Then someone
replied, and it suddenly started to get cross-posted. Now it is all over the
net.
And the more you show him interest, the more he will post.
I am also sure that, if they can't stop him, they will join him. It is
just a matter of time. Once they see that, he finds his way around every time,
they will start doing the same thing to fight with him.
Therefore, pleeze ignore the guy!!!!!!!
TUNGA
David Hultgren
poster or even content (heard about his robots who flames
on post containing keywords?), he just takes a line or two
from the beginning, cuts it in half and starts saying
something as "That's the whole point that you SDPA
wackos/crooks invariably miss. So here's more "crimes of
your fascist Armenian grandparents"
<insert many times posted articles here>
If you are realy lucky, he will "misspell" Your name so it
means something insulting on turkish!
(this probably means this is one of the few letters he has
read personally)
Arguing? he has never answered a reply that I have seen!
(insults is another matter)
reposting articles 3 or 4 times the same day to a group is
another charming way of "arguing" that he used!
One question I never have heard You or any other of its few
admirers answer, what do You think would happen if he
rised the production capacity of his robots to, say 100
times their capacity of today? 1000 times?
Or even worse, say that more "special intrest groups"
started using robots (think about a armenian robot and
the serdar robot automatically posting and replying to
each other!!)
--
David Hultgren, Space Eng.
Co: Paulsson
Lillekrok 8
S-22738 Lund
SWEDEN
------------------------------------------
"I have a spelling checker.
It came with my PC.
It plane lee marks four my review
Miss steaks aye can knot see."
(Jerrold H. Zar)
------------------------------------------
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>
>2260...@msu.edu writes
>> My argument will of course seem to lack sense if you just evaluate the final
>> sentence of a long discussion that developed in several messages.
>
>I did not take your sentence out of context, and it was enough to show your
>arguement was basically silly, since you couldn't defend your hero Cosar
>properly. (ie. NOBODY needs a robot to discuss things for them, they are not
>getting anything out of the conversation while they take away from the
>enjoyment of others.) That is the point you have not and cannot address.
>
was that no one has the right to cancel other peoples mails. You are free not
to read it. OF course, some assholes (such as you are) tried to defend
themselves by saying that the postings are by a robot but not a person.
I made it clear that a robot represents its owners ideas, therefore the ideas
have to be respected regardless of whether a robot or a person posts them.
But you guys are so damn stupid that you just cannot understand these.
In my mails I have also stated many times that I DO NOT read Cosar's postings,
and have never read them. I tried to make it clear that I am not defending
Cosar but only fighting against censorship.
That is why you guys seem so narrow-minded.
>I love my sig, it is symbolic. Your silly attack on it shows what type of
>person you aren't.
>
>n_w$$h
or not, he is an asshole.
If I wanted to enjoy some symbolic art, I would be in the museum now, not
in the USENET.
Just put your damn name!
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
Go laugh in your own face, if you are not ashamed to look at your face that is.
I don't have time for assholes.
TUNGA
2260...@msu.edu
ra...@watnxt10.ucr.edu (Raffi Kojian) writes:
>You mean you fail to realise that I am laughing in your
>face for implying that you have any type of objectivity?
>(which you accomplish by questioning someone elses)
>
>n_w$$h
>
>
different than what Argic is doing.
You are actually even worse: He, at least, has a point to make.
TUNGA
David Hultgren
read his mail!!!
>In my mails I have also stated many times that I DO NOT read Cosar's postings,
>and have never read them."
>TUNGA
The reasons we are pissed is his behavior!
(read some of his junk and You will understand)
--
Neal Pendleton
|> In article <2q3nuc$g...@news.cerf.net>
|> n...@ten-fwd.airpcs.com (Neal Pendleton) writes:
|>
|> >
|> >In article <Cp0F5...@vaccine.worlds.com>, war...@vaccine.worlds.com (Warren Burstein) writes:
|> >|> In <16FA4AA2A...@msu.edu> 2260...@msu.edu writes:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >You know what would happen if everybody minded their own business and did not
|> >|> >try to keep informed about the stuff going on in the world,
|> >|> >especially in their neighborhood?
|> >|>
|> >|> I agree. Let's eliminate soc.culture.* and force everyone to post
|> >
|> >One of the wonderful things about newsgroups is that _I_ am able to
|> >determine exactly which subjects are of interest to my welfare. [...]
|> > [...] Why not just do away with newsgroups?
|> >
|> >Neal
|>
|> Both you guys missed the key point : neighborhood!
|>
|> You don't have to stretch anything anywhere. If you think that Iranian would
|> not be interested at things happening between Armenians and the Turks, then
|> you need some serious education on world politics.
|>
In theory I would have high regard for this wise Iranian who is curious about
the world around him, but:
A. Why would he not go to soc.cunture.turkish to read about the subject
that the Serdar entity posts?
B. Most of the newsgroups into which Serdar leaves his droppings are
not appropriate. A typical Serdar post, taken from Monday 25-Apr,
was cross posted to "misc.headlines". Everything in the article
refers to the period of around 1915 ... not hardly a "headline".
If Serdar was reporting news from last week, I could see where the
theoretical Iranian might be pleased with seeing the activities
of Armenians reported in "soc.culture.arabic". But most of Serdar's
articles are stories that happened 4 generations ago. How useful
is this to a reader of "soc.culture.jewish"?
C. Ahmet Cosar recently emerged from behind his 'bots and said that he
talked with Serdar about removing "alt.fraternity.sorority" from
the crosspost list, but threatened to put it back in if certian
people annoyed him enough. I guess that this is really an admission
that many (I think most) of the newsgroups Serdar uses are only
included in order to trash them.
D. We would not be having this discussion if Serdar had human limitations
on the amount of materiel that he dumps into the net. The big
problem is that the automated trash production is growing beyond the
ability of some people to handle (for some the limit is time=money,
for others the limit is patience).
Neal "James talks to Clarissa, Cosar talks to Serdar,
and Oral Roberts talks to God" Pendleton
2260...@msu.edu
n...@ten-fwd.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Neal Pendleton) writes:
>
>In theory I would have high regard for this wise Iranian who is curious about
>the world around him, but:
>
> A. Why would he not go to soc.cunture.turkish to read about the subject
> that the Serdar entity posts?
>
How would he know there is a Serdar writing in soc.culture.turkish if Serdar
doesn't post those stuff over to soc.culture.iranian? You don't expect the
guy to say "Hmm, let me look at soc.culture.turkish to see if there is any
posting in English that would interest us Iranians as well." I don't think
even the smartest Iranian would do that.
> B. Most of the newsgroups into which Serdar leaves his droppings are
> not appropriate. A typical Serdar post, taken from Monday 25-Apr,
> was cross posted to "misc.headlines". Everything in the article
> refers to the period of around 1915 ... not hardly a "headline".
> If Serdar was reporting news from last week, I could see where the
> theoretical Iranian might be pleased with seeing the activities
> of Armenians reported in "soc.culture.arabic". But most of Serdar's
> articles are stories that happened 4 generations ago. How useful
> is this to a reader of "soc.culture.jewish"?
>
I do agree on this aspect. That it has nothing to do with the Jewish or the
arabic. He has surely spread into too many newgroups.
> C. Ahmet Cosar recently emerged from behind his 'bots and said that he
> talked with Serdar about removing "alt.fraternity.sorority" from
> the crosspost list, but threatened to put it back in if certian
> people annoyed him enough. I guess that this is really an admission
> that many (I think most) of the newsgroups Serdar uses are only
> included in order to trash them.
>
Now Serdar is a robot that Cosar has created. So it doesn't make sense for
Cosar to talk with Serdar. But the point that I keep on saying is:
Ignore Serdar for some time, don't reply to him, don't discuss stuff about him.
Soon he will get bored.
The reason that he has been posting is simply because some people keep on
replying to him, resulting him to further post.
> D. We would not be having this discussion if Serdar had human limitations
> on the amount of materiel that he dumps into the net. The big
> problem is that the automated trash production is growing beyond the
> ability of some people to handle (for some the limit is time=money,
> for others the limit is patience).
>
Look at my above suggestion to solve this problem. The more you try to fight
with him, the worse he gets.
TUNGA
David Hultgren
just went on posting the same posters time and time
again!!
Even if it wasnt replied to, it still continued to post the
same bloody posts.
(check the quota replies from/to it to see what I mean)
2260...@msu.edu
e8...@efd.lth.se (David Hultgren) writes:
>
>Check its postings, Most of them is not even replies, it
>just went on posting the same posters time and time
>again!!
>
>Even if it wasnt replied to, it still continued to post the
>same bloody posts.
>
>(check the quota replies from/to it to see what I mean)
>
>
>--
>David Hultgren, Space Eng.
>
on the net, in its heading. Plus, the fact is that he just gets fired up when
somebody tries to reply him. So he posts everything all over again.
If everybody (and I mean everybody, not most of the people) ignored him,
there would be no reason for him to get fired up. And he will have to find
himself some other toy than the USENET.
TUNGA
Bruce Ediger
>Now Serdar is a robot that Cosar has created. So it doesn't make sense for
>Cosar to talk with Serdar. But the point that I keep on saying is:
>Ignore Serdar for some time, don't reply to him, don't discuss stuff about him.
>Soon he will get bored.
>
>The reason that he has been posting is simply because some people keep on
>replying to him, resulting him to further post.
Have you got a better theory or better information? "Serdar is a robot that
Cosar runs" is a pretty good operating hypothesis. However, I for one would
be happy to learn otherwise.
Besides that, you are wrong. Some perverse urge causes "Serdar" to gratutiously
insult and follow-up to some posts. The follow-up is almost always completely
out of context and irrelevant to the material being followed-up. Therefore,
ignoring or not arguing with "Argic" won't cause him/her/it/them to get
bored and go away.
Furthermore, why can't "Argic" and "Artun" show a little sportsmanship?
They aren't required by laws of nature to continue arguing. They don't
absolutely have to get in the last word do they?
Sincerely,
Bruce Ediger, A Real Human Being.
2260...@msu.edu
bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger) writes:
>Have you got a better theory or better information? "Serdar is a robot that
>Cosar runs" is a pretty good operating hypothesis. However, I for one would
>be happy to learn otherwise.
I do not have extra information, but seems like some people in that newsgroup
does.
>
>Besides that, you are wrong. Some perverse urge causes "Serdar" to gratutiously
>insult and follow-up to some posts. The follow-up is almost always completely
>out of context and irrelevant to the material being followed-up. Therefore,
>ignoring or not arguing with "Argic" won't cause him/her/it/them to get
>bored and go away.
is not important for them. As you have mentioned above, saying the last
word is more important.
So if you allow them to have the last word, they will see no reason to
go on posting.
>
>Furthermore, why can't "Argic" and "Artun" show a little sportsmanship?
>They aren't required by laws of nature to continue arguing. They don't
>absolutely have to get in the last word do they?
they would already be doing these stuff if they had common sense?
You cannot argue through the regular approach with a person that lacks common
sense. You have to be innovative and challanging. That is the biggest mistake
people have had while dealing with Serdar. They think they can outsmart him
with conceptual responses. That is not the way they operate.
>
>Sincerely,
>Bruce Ediger, A Real Human Being.
Tooraj Enayati
>In article <2q9k6k$i...@news.cerf.net>
>n...@ten-fwd.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Neal Pendleton) writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not good Neal, not good!
>>
>>In theory I would have high regard for this wise Iranian who is curious about
>>the world around him, but:
>>
>> A. Why would he not go to soc.cunture.turkish to read about the subject
>> that the Serdar entity posts?
>>
>How would he know there is a Serdar writing in soc.culture.turkish if Serdar
I don't have to know. Why should I any way? _IF_ I want to know then I
can go and find the right place. I don't need him to force his un-related
junk on me.
>doesn't post those stuff over to soc.culture.iranian? You don't expect the
>guy to say "Hmm, let me look at soc.culture.turkish to see if there is any
>posting in English that would interest us Iranians as well." I don't think
^^^^^^^^
>even the smartest Iranian would do that.
The key work is interest. Yes if I am iterested in some thing I'd go and
search for it. Once I had a question and I switched to fj.* groups that
have all the text in funny format and asked my question.
So what you saying is that Serdar has the right to send whatever he want
to where ever he want just because if he restrict his BS to only the related
news group other (un-interested peoples) won't be able to read it.
As for the "ignore him he'll go away", why don't you ignore us and hope
we go away?
>TUNGA
Is Tunga Turkish? ;-)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Tooraj Enayati Melbourne Australia too...@daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au
2260...@msu.edu
You see if you don't follow the discussion from the start, you pull us back
to where we started from. My initial point for this particular discussion was
that it is appropriate for Serdar to post to some of the newsgroups that
the neighbors of Armenia and Turkey are involved with.
I DID NOT say that he can post whereever he wants.
And, you cannot show me one prson on this world who would say:
"Let me go and have a look at soc.culture.turkish to see if there are any
postings about the Armenian problem."
Now, that IS my point!
TUNGA (Yes, it is perfectly Turkish [ :-) ])
2260...@msu.edu
d...@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>
>In article <16FADB7A3...@msu.edu> 2260...@msu.edu (Tunga Kiyak)
>responded to article <CpC97...@csn.org> bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger)
>and wrote:
>
>[TUNGA] You cannot argue through the regular approach with a person that lacks
>[TUNGA] common sense. You have to be innovative and challanging. That is the
>[TUNGA] biggest mistake people have had while dealing with Serdar. They think
>[TUNGA] they can outsmart him with conceptual responses. That is not the way
>[TUNGA] they operate.
>
>It makes no difference what the name of the messenger is. The messages of mass
>distortions of history has no name. I have exposed and refuted the message of
>systematic historical revisionism and denying the Turkish genocide of the
>Armenians from whomever, for in all cases it comes from a mask covering Turkish
>governmental policy.
>
>The fool Argic, and Mutlu before him have never addressed refutations of their
>posted garbage. In the final analysis, I could care less if these posting come
>from autobots or Turks socialized to distort the historical record -- they are
>the same will all be addressed with tenacity!
>
>Mr. Kiyak, I would liked to have said "good try", but not here. I have seen
>innovative ways of supporting the posting of Argic/Mutlu/Cosar, but yours is
>certainly unique -- let him post and ignore him -- yet let denial propagate!
>
>
>--
>David Davidian d...@urartu.sdpa.org | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
Your style is most appropriate, I assume. You were offered to have a
soc.culture.armenia created for the discussion on this subject so that
it can be discussed freely without outside involvement.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO REJECTED THIS. You are the one who is trying to
distort the history, and give wrong information to the people on the net.
Therefore do not blame anyone else, but yourself, for the actions of Argic.
TUNGA
Neal Pendleton
[....]
|>
|> Here we start all over again!
|>
|> You see if you don't follow the discussion from the start, you pull us back
|> to where we started from. My initial point for this particular discussion was
|> that it is appropriate for Serdar to post to some of the newsgroups that
|> the neighbors of Armenia and Turkey are involved with.
|>
|> I DID NOT say that he can post whereever he wants.
|>
|> And, you cannot show me one prson on this world who would say:
|> "Let me go and have a look at soc.culture.turkish to see if there are any
|> postings about the Armenian problem."
|>
|> Now, that IS my point!
There is always some leakage of articles into related newsgroups, so I
doubt that anyone interested would have a hard time finding the subject
even if it was intelligently cross-posted. For a subject that is 80
years old, how many newbies get on the net and immediately start thinking
"where is all the talk about the Turk/Armenia genocide?" It must be
pretty close to, oh, aproximately, 1. ;-)
|>
|> TUNGA (Yes, it is perfectly Turkish [ :-) ])
In your other articles you reccomend ignoring Serdar with the idea
that he will get bored and go away. I do not think that will work
for the following reasons:
1. Newbies will not understand what Serdar is and will respond.
2. Some people are compelled to respond, such as David Davidian,
by some personal interest in the situation.
3. Some people will respond just for sheer perverse pleasure of
seeing the reaction of the 'bot.
4. Many articles have keywords, like a turkey recipie, which have
no bearing on Turkey but will trigger a response anyway.
5. The operators of Serdar have seen, much like the C&S green card
lawyers saw, that these newsgroups offer a free opportunity to
put out political advertising. Lack of response would not be
sufficient reason to stop posting.
Neal "I'll go with the first side to execute its own
officers for warcrimes" Pendleton
David Davidian
responded to article <CpC97...@csn.org> bed...@teal.csn.org (Bruce Ediger)
and wrote:
[TUNGA] You cannot argue through the regular approach with a person that lacks
[TUNGA] common sense. You have to be innovative and challanging. That is the
[TUNGA] biggest mistake people have had while dealing with Serdar. They think
[TUNGA] they can outsmart him with conceptual responses. That is not the way
[TUNGA] they operate.
It makes no difference what the name of the messenger is. The messages of mass
distortions of history has no name. I have exposed and refuted the message of
systematic historical revisionism and denying the Turkish genocide of the
Armenians from whomever, for in all cases it comes from a mask covering Turkish
governmental policy.
The fool Argic, and Mutlu before him have never addressed refutations of their
posted garbage. In the final analysis, I could care less if these posting come
from autobots or Turks socialized to distort the historical record -- they are
the same will all be addressed with tenacity!
Mr. Kiyak, I would liked to have said "good try", but not here. I have seen
innovative ways of supporting the posting of Argic/Mutlu/Cosar, but yours is
certainly unique -- let him post and ignore him -- yet let denial propagate!
--
David Davidian d...@urartu.sdpa.org | "How do we explain Turkish troops on
S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | the Armenian border, when we can't
P.O. Box 382761 | even explain 1915?"
Cambridge, MA 02238 | Turkish MP, March 1992
Chris Owen
>In article <2q9k6k$i...@news.cerf.net>
>n...@ten-fwd.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Neal Pendleton) writes:
>>
>> A. Why would he not go to soc.cunture.turkish to read about the subject
>> that the Serdar entity posts?
>>
>How would he know there is a Serdar writing in soc.culture.turkish if Serdar
>doesn't post those stuff over to soc.culture.iranian? You don't expect the
>guy to say "Hmm, let me look at soc.culture.turkish to see if there is any
>posting in English that would interest us Iranians as well." I don't think
>even the smartest Iranian would do that.
Turks, where do I look? soc.culture.turkish or soc.history, that's where.
Are you saying that if I want to find something out about Norway - the nearest
country to where I live in England - I should look in soc.culture.british?
>Now Serdar is a robot that Cosar has created. So it doesn't make sense for
>Cosar to talk with Serdar. But the point that I keep on saying is:
>Ignore Serdar for some time, don't reply to him, don't discuss stuff about him.
>Soon he will get bored.
Hmm. There's a non-sequitur there, Tunga. Serdar is a robot; robots don't
have emotions; robots therefore can't get bored. The robot isn't posting
because it gets some sort of orgasmic thrill out of posting to the net, it's
posting because it's been told to post. It'll continue posting until someone
tells it not to post.
>The reason that he has been posting is simply because some people keep on
>replying to him, resulting him to further post.
>
>> D. We would not be having this discussion if Serdar had human limitations
>> on the amount of materiel that he dumps into the net. The big
>> problem is that the automated trash production is growing beyond the
>> ability of some people to handle (for some the limit is time=money,
>> for others the limit is patience).
>>
>
>Look at my above suggestion to solve this problem. The more you try to fight
>with him, the worse he gets.
Yes, *but* people don't know this. If every single Usenet reader knew that
they shouldn't reply to the Zumabot then it might work. But they don't. How
can they, with a million newbies joining every month? The point is, Tunga,
that you're putting the ideal position. The practical position is that people
*don't* know that they shouldn't respond and short of mass-posting on a scale
similar to Serdar's, there is no practical way of getting the message across.
The ideal position breaks down under the weight of reality, I'm afraid...
--
/ Chris Owen, Trinity College, Oxford | tr9...@black.ox.ac.uk \
|---------------------------------------------------------------
| Canter and Siegel's criminal Armenian grandparents have |
\ committed net.genocide on 2.5 million Green Cards... /
Raffi Kojian
: In article <2qbbua$o...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>
: too...@daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au (Tooraj Enayati) writes:
You are wrong Tunga, I came to s.c.t to see if tthere was any discussions
about the Armenian Genocide. After all IT HAPPENED IN TURKEY!!! So where
else should I go? s.c.argentina?
n_w$$h
: >
Ken Arromdee
>Your style is most appropriate, I assume. You were offered to have a
>soc.culture.armenia created for the discussion on this subject so that
>it can be discussed freely without outside involvement.
Somewhat of a misrepresentation. The proposed soc.culture.armenia would have
been on the order of requiring that all refutations of Holocaust revisionists
be restricted to soc.culture.jewish while the revisionist themselves get to
post "the Jews slaughtered the Nazis" to any newsgroup of their choosing.
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"You, a Decider?" --Romana "I decided not to." --The Doctor
Andrew Varvel
For your interest, I've noticed that when zumabot doesn't get replies, it
will usually post stuff that it posted years ago over and over and over...
In fact, it is sometimes more likely to reply to something one or two years
ago than something replied to it at the time.
The idea that "if it gets ignored, then it will go away" is ludicrous. It
will just keep on posting, whether it gets replies or not! And if it
doesn't get replies, then some newbie will come along not realizing that the
posts are complete rubbish and post encouragement. Then, DD and some other
Armenians come along to disprove the roboposts, and after a while, general
public opinion will be heavily against (1) zumabot, (2) people who reply to
the nonsense, and especially (3) the newbie morons who believe this garbage
and actually encourage zumabot to post.
It's a cycle, really. Even proposed lobbying campaigns against the abuse of
the net seem to go into cycles. However, it seems that the magnitude of the
protest seems to get larger with each cycle. The way things are going, the
existence of zumabot could actually have major political repercussions in
the politics concerning Turkey.
It would be helpful to Turkish government and business if they disavowed
at least the tactics of zumabot and its puppetmaster at UM. If they are
known to be unwilling to disavow its rantings and ravings, then they will
probably be generally assumed to support such lunacy. The willingness (or
lack of willingness) of the Turkish government (and business interests) to
disavow the actions of Cosar would definitely affect public opinion
concerning Turkey, with repercussions on many fronts (such as membership in
the EC, US-Turkey trade policy, the amount of clout Turkey may have on NATO
actions in Bosnia (especially vis a vis Greece), etc.).
--AV--
Oezcan Oezbilge
> It makes no difference what the name of the messenger is. The messages of mass
> distortions of history has no name. I have exposed and refuted the message of
> systematic historical revisionism and denying the Turkish genocide of the
> Armenians from whomever, for in all cases it comes from a mask covering Turkish
> governmental policy.
>
> The fool Argic, and Mutlu before him have never addressed refutations of their
> posted garbage. In the final analysis, I could care less if these posting come
> from autobots or Turks socialized to distort the historical record -- they are
> the same will all be addressed with tenacity!
Stop pretending! You have more than a zillion times written from within a racist
discourse and have shown your real face to us, the followers of this newsgroup.
Your message is equally revisionist (as it makes use of historical data in a
systematically selective approach), irredentist (as it comes coupled with
nationalist claims, and tries to pave the way to the legitimation of such
claims), propagandist (as you have never attempted to engage in fruitful and
constructive communication with Turkish citizens but simply broadcasted to your
English speaking audience - and made use of this newsgroup as a medium for sole
propaganda) and utterly racist (as you have frequently quoted from eurocentrist,
white-supremacist and anti-turkist pens, and have reproduced their ideas in
your own postings).
We all know that you are paid for what you do here in the usenet. So, David, siktir
git! Koyun kiligina burunup adamin kafasini attirma!
Ozcan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In this expanding horizon of meaning,
sense is made "only through another bird".
Oezcan Oezbilge
Albatros Talking oezb...@aut.alcatel.at
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Davidian
Oezbilge) responded to article 13...@urartu.sdpa.org, d...@urartu.sdpa.org
(David Davidian) who wrote:
[DD] It makes no difference what the name of the messenger is. The messages of
[DD] mass distortions of history has no name. I have exposed and refuted the
[DD] message of systematic historical revisionism and denying the Turkish
[DD] genocide of the Armenians from whomever, for in all cases it comes from
[DD] a mask covering Turkish governmental policy.
[DD] The fool Argic, and Mutlu before him have never addressed refutations of
[DD] their posted garbage. In the final analysis, I could care less if these
[DD] posting come from autobots or Turks socialized to distort the historical
[DD] record -- they are the same will all be addressed with tenacity!
[oo] Stop pretending! You have more than a zillion times written from within
[oo] a racist discourse and have shown your real face to us, the followers of
[oo] this newsgroup.
I don't pretend, Ozcan.
[oo] Your message is equally revisionist (as it makes use of historical data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[oo] in a systematically selective approach), irredentist (as it comes coupled
~~~~~~~~~~~
[oo] with nationalist claims, and tries to pave the way to the legitimation
[oo] of such claims), propagandist (as you have never attempted to engage in
~~~~~~~~~~~
[oo] fruitful and constructive communication with Turkish citizens but simply
[oo] broadcasted to your English speaking audience - and made use of this
[oo] newsgroup as a medium for sole propaganda) and utterly racist (as you
[oo] have frequently quoted from eurocentrist, white-supremacist and anti-
[oo] turkist pens, and have reproduced their ideas in your own postings).
I see, my postings are "equally" as "revisionist", "irredendist", and
"propagandist" as those of Cosar/Mutlu/Argic.
[oo] We all know that you are paid for what you do here in the usenet. So,
[oo] David, siktir git! Koyun kiligina burunup adamin kafasini attirma!
In translation, we read:
[oo] David, screw off! Don't make me mad by [you] jumping into sheep's
[oo] clothing!
OK, only if you promise to take off your Grey Wolf facemask!