TURKISH NATIONALISM

[hanife]

TURKISH NATIONALISM

"No idea can be upheld against the interests of the Turkish nation, the
foundation of the indivisibility of the Turkish existence with its
state, its country, its history and moral values, Ataturk’s nationalism
(Kemalism), principles, revolutions and civilizations"

This statements is from a section of the Turkish Constitution which was
ratified in 1982. It not only proves that Kemalism still prevails in
Turkey, but also means that Turkish law will not accept any idea that is
in conflict with the interests of the Turkish nation and Turkish
nationalism.

After the expulsion of the Greeks and the mass extermination of the
Armenians, the Kurds were the only remaining important non-Turkish
element in the country. On the first of November 1922, once military
victory was assured, Mustafa Kemal declared to Parliament: 'The state is
a Turkish state!' Repression directed against the Kurds, the only
community which threatened the existence of Turkey as a quasi ethnically
homogeneous nation state, soon followed.

In 1924, the Kurdish language was banned. The Kurds thus lost, by
decree, their very identity, since no one in Turkey could be anything
but Turkish, unless they belonged to one of the landless religious
minorities whose rights were recognized in the treaty of Lausanne
[1923].

M. Kemal began efforts to create a new Turkish nationalist ideology.
From that tome on ward, there was no ethnic group in turkey other than
Turkish and no language was allowed but Turkish. There were ‘one
party’, ‘one nation’ and ‘one leader’. Ismail Besikci, Turkish
sociologist, observed that Mussolini’s ideas were influential in
determining this ideology and established that there were significant
parallels to be drawn.

In the same time, M. Kemal ordered that scientific conferences be held.
At one these conferences, the "Son-Language" theory was accepted.
According to this theory the Turkish language was "the mother of all
languages". The "Turkish history thesis was accepted at another
conference. According to this theory "the superior Turkish race" was the
"mother of all civilizations and races" M. Kemal's plan for devising
nation led him to create a mythical history of Turkey. The Turks, who
originally came from central Asia, became the originators of the great
Sumerian, Babylonian and Hittite civilizations of Asia minor and
Mesopotamia. In this hyper-nationalist vision, the Kurds simply do not
exist. According to Kemalist official historians the Kurds were
originally Turanian and came from the steppes of central Asia 5000 years
ago and their present dialect is a corruption of Turkish mixed with
Persian and Arabic.
The Turkish Janissary Corps (Turk Ocaklari) was responsible for the
organization of these conferences.

The president of Turkish Janissary Corps, Abdullah Suphi Tanriover made
following statement on April 23 1930:

"A form nationalism, also known as Fascism, has appeared in Italy after
a very difficult struggle. We see some of our own political and social
ideas as being similar to aspects of this movement. Fascism concerns
economic, political and social harmony based on the idea of the
"motherland" Like the Fascist youth, nationalist Turkish youth will also
take up arms and will defend the Turkish revolution against anything
that threatens it. We see both our past and our future in the enthusiasm
of Fascism". [ Ayin Tarihi, May 1930 (74th edition), pp.6201-6215].

While this ideology was created within Turkey, friends and enemies were
also identified according to Turk’un Turk’ten baska dostu yoktur (The
only friends of Turks are Turks). Internal enemies were identified as
communists, socialists, Muslim fundamentalists, Kurds Armenians and
other ethnic minorities. Bir Turk dunya ya bedeldir (One Turk is worth
all the world) and Ne mutlu Turkum diyene (What a happiness to say that
I m Turkish) became the slogans of the day.

Turkey is one of the countries which signed the United Nations
"International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial
Discrimination" (1965), but this has net been ratified by Parliament.
The International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the
Crime of Apartheid (1973) has been either signed nor ratified by the
Turkish State. Racism is prohibited by Turkish Law. But this does not
include "Turkish racism". Minorities, who oppose this and identify
themselves as non-Turkish, are actively being portrayed s racist, and
there are various legal measures directed against these ‘racists’.

In the Turkish Constitution the phrase "anybody who opposes the
indivisibility of the Turkish Republic with its nation and its country,
will be deprived of their basic human rights and freedom" is mentioned
thirty-three rimes. In addition to this, and according to the Turkish
Criminal Law (para. 125), the Anti-Terror Law (para. 8) and a number of
the other Laws, anyone who tries to divide the country, who says that
there is more than one nation in Turkey, who acts on or organizes on the
basis of this matter, can be punished by various penalties including
imprisonment and execution.

It is also crime to say ‘Hurray to Turkish-Kurdish brotherhood’. The
Kurdish deputies who added this statement to their pledges at the
opening ceremony of Parliament in November 1991, taken to court for
attempting to divide the country.

To have Turkish nationalism accepted by the people, all institutions,
especially in the filed of education, are held responsible for its
propaganda. In elementary schools, children have to recite a long text
starting with the phrase : "I am Turkish, I am honorable, I work hard.".
This text ends with "I give my existence as a present to the Turkish
existence". In all universities, academies and colleges Turkish
Revolution History is a mandatory course. Turkey’s Teachers Association,
campaigned to remove the chauvinistic elements from the educational
system. After the 1980 coup, this Association was banned by the military
court and for ‘conducting activities to divide Turkey’ and its leader
were given sentences of up to 8 years imprisonment. The slogans which
were identified in 1930s are not only valid in schools, but are also
widely accepted by the population.

It is generally believed that each internal enemy is supported by
outsiders. Efforts to seek out this external support depend on the
position of the people of groups involved within the Kemalists context,
and on the attributes of the enemies.

According to left-wing Kemalists; the Kurds are a problem created by
Western imperialists. Muslim fundamentalism is a problem that was
exported to Turkey by the reactionary Arab countries and more recently,
by Iran. According to right-wing Kemalists, Turkey is opposing a world
that is against the development of Turks and Muslims. Both groups are
governed by one feeling : "Turks don not have any friends by Turks
themselves". THE WHOLE WORLD IS AFFRAID OF THE TURKS AND THEIR
DEVELOPMENT.

The "Ataturk Peace Award’ was awarded to Nelson Mandela in 1992 for
being ‘anti-racist and hero’. When he refuse the award because of the
oppression of the Kurds, he was called ‘an insolent African’, ‘an ugly
African’ and ‘the terrorist Mandela’ [Milliyet, Turkiye and Sabah, 19
and 20 May 1992].

‘Turan’ is still dream. But realizing this dream is not so easy in the
world today. By the way, the biggest ideologist of Turan, Ziya Gokalp
was a Zaza Kurd.

Racism is prohibited in Turkey, racism is defined and portrayed as being
identical to anti-Turkish sentiments. This kind of racism is combated.
All other kinds of racism, especially those directed against the
minorities in Turkey itself, are neglected or even supported.

Hanife

Refs.::

Racist Violence in Europe, T. Bjorgo, R. Wittle (Eds.,), 1993..

The Kurdish Tragedy, Gerard Chaliand, 1994

[Erhan]

hanife hanim,

Baskalirin cirkin taraflarini oyle ustune basa basa gostermek sizi de
cirkinlestiriyor.

Bu tip aciklamarla, bu tarihte bu olmus su olmus, ne elde etmek
istiyorsunuz ?

Onemli olan su andaki durum ve o durumu nasil duzeltebilmek.

Biliyorum siz PKK destekcisiniz. Bence yaniliyorsunuz. PKK ile isiniz
yurumeyecek. Umut ettiginizin tersini alcaksiniz.

Cabalariniz "KURT' kelimesini 'TABU' olmaktan kurtarmak olmali.
Siz tersini yapiyorsunuz.

Saygilarimla,
Erhan

[hanife]

Erhan wrote:

Erhan Bey,

Gosterdiklerimin Turkiye Cumhuriyet'inin cirkin yanlari oldugunu kabul
ediyorum. Ama eger cirkinlikler ortaya konulmazsa, acik acik
tartisilmazsa nasil duzeltebiliriz ki onlari? Zaten butun sorunlarin
temelinde 'aman Turkiye'nin itibari sarsilir', 'aman Turkiye bolunur'
diye 'konusmamak' yatmiyor mu? Halbuki bunlar acik acik tartisilabilse,
'konusan Turkiye' yaratilabilse sorunlarin cozumu cok daha kolay ve
demokratik yollardan olmayacak mi? Halbuki bugun kimse bunlari acik acik
tartismadigi icin 'bastakiler'de bu durumun kaymagini yedigi icin
memnunlar. Sonra da bir iki ses ortaya cikinca bizlerin 'suskunlugu'
yuzunden o insanlar haketmedikleri tavra ve suclamalara maruz
kaliyorlar. Halbuki bizlerde konusabilsek, o insanlarin yanliz
olmadigini gosterebilsek 'bastakiler' de bu kadar rahat, gozumuzun icine
baka baka 'kaymak' yiyemiyecekler. Biz 'sustugumuz' icin bunlari
hakediyoruz. Erhan Bey, konusmaktan kimseye zarar gelmez. Konusacagiz
ki, farkli gorusleri de duyalim ve onlarinda isiginda 'kendi
dogrularimizi' bulabilelim. Obur turlu 'koyun surusu'nden farkimiz
kalmaz.

Benim 'Turkish Nationalism'' adli yazimda verdiklerim dediginiz gibi
'tarih'de kalmis seyler olsaydi onlari yazma geregini hissetmezdim. Ama
ne yazikki onlar bugun de tum canliligiyla icimizde, bizimle
birlikteler. Benim o yaziyi yazmam daki amac Turk insanini, kendisini
'irkciliktan' soyutladigini zanneden insanlari dusunmeye itmekti. Acaba?
dedirtebilmekti. Cunku nedense herkes 'irkciligi', insanlardaki 'renk'
ayirimindan farkli dusunemiyorlar. Hele hele kaldiki o yazimdaki
sloganlari Turkiye'de 'irkci' degilim diye diye insanlar gururla
kullaniyorlar. Sizin "Kurt' kelimesinin 'tabu' oldugunu kabul ettiginiz
gercekte, benim yazimda bahsettigim ve ne yazikki tarihte kalmamis olan
politikalarin sonucudur. O zaman 'Turkish nationalism' ne yazikki
sorunun nedenlerinden biridir. Bundan odun vermeyen, bunu duzeltmeye
calismayan bir halkla (Turk halki), nasil sorunu cozebilirsiniz ki? "Bir
Turk dunyaya bedeldir", diyen bir halkin Kurt halkina 'saygi' duymasini
beklemek hayalcilik olmaz mi? 'Turk'un Turk'ten baska dostu yoktur'
diye inanan bir halkin 'Kurt' lerle 'kardeslige, guvene' dayanan
birlikteligini beklemek ne kadar dogrudur sizce? Kaldiki Kurt'ler
tarihin her doneminde, Turk'lerin Anadolu'ya girisini saglayan Malazgirt
Savasi'ndan tutunda Kurtulus Savasi'na kadar Turk kardesleri ile omuz
omuza savasmislar, cekilen her aciyi ortak paylasmislardir. Ama gelin
gorunki Turk kardesleri butun bunlari inanilmaz bir hizla unutmus,
'benim basarim', 'benim vatanim', 'benim haklarim' demislerdir.
Kendileri ile birlikte bu topraklar icin olen, o basari sirasinda
onlarla aciyi esit sekilde paylasan Kurt kardeslerine Turk'ler, 'dilini
kullanmayi, kulturunu yasatmayi' cok gormuslerdir. Kurt varligini inkar
edip, onlari 'Turk'lestirmeye' calismislardir. Erhan Bey, sizin
kitabinizda buna ne deniyor bilmem ama, benimkinde 'nankorluk' deniyor
buna. Iste butun bunlarin nedeni o 'nationalism' dir.Bugun Turk halki
"Kurt' gercegini, 'nationalism'den kurtuldugu icin degil, PKK'nin
zoruyla kabul etmek zorunda kalmistir. Halen insanlar 'bunu verirsek,
sunuda isterler' diyorlar. Sanki 'lutfediyorlar' bizim temel haklarimizi
bize vermek icin. Boyle bir konumdaki halka 'guvenilmez' ! Halen dunyaya
'Turk milliyetciligi' ile bakan bir halkin, baska Kurt'lerin haklarina
saygili, adil bir cozum bulabilmek icin 'samimiyetle'
yaklasilabilecegine inanilmaz. Boyle bir halk'tan ne yazikki haklar
'soke soke alinir'. Bu da iste PKK'nin varolma nedenidir !

Saygilarimla,

Hanife

[Siamak Rezaei (Durroei)]

Hi,
The break up of Soviet Union has brought forward golden oppurtunities
for Kurdish nationalism. In this century Kurdish interstes were sacrificed to
prevent the Russians to move closer to the Persian Gulf and the rich
oil fields of the region, but by creation of buffer states between
Kurdish lands and Russia that threat is almost over.

The Kurdish leaders need to take these events and upportunities into
consideration and expand their views in order to put Kurdish interests in
more harmony with the interests of other players in the region. For
Kurdish struggle no ideology is stronger and more useful than Kurdayati.

One strategy that Kurds in Turkey should
consider is strategic alliance with countries like Armenia. Armenia
has already entered such alliance with Iran, Greece [and Georgia] who
face the same threat from the Azeri-Turkish pressure on their borders
and interests.

By creation of a Kurdistan in their western frontiers the Aremenians
can secure their western front from the Turkish threat and the Kurds
can also guarantee to Aremenians that in the case of break up of
Turkey the Armenians can have some of the northern parts of the regions
between Kurdish areas and black sea. In other words access to the
international waters and NATO, EU countries. Kurdistan can take over the
same role that Turkey has failed to play in the region and with
cooperation with Greece, it can act as a secure and safe silk road
between Europe and [middle] east.

The Turks have shown that that they don't understand any language but
the language of force and it is time for Turks to eat the fruits of
the devil seeds that they have sown at the beginning of this century.

Long live Kurdayati
- Siamak

[Alexandros Aliferis]

I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to
unify the nation towards a threat.
For the Turks, they make the Kurds and Christians as a threat. The
Turks have to remember that their ancestors are not Turks but the orginal
inhabitiants of Anatolia. The Turks are nothing, but an American....all
mixed into bowl. The difference is they don't uphold Civil liberties
towards their minorities.
Before the Turks came, Anatolia was orginally inhabited by christians.
How can a huge Turkish population arise from this. Is it that people were
converted to be Muslims and had to learn Turkish and eventually abandoned
their native languages of Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Georgian, Kurdish,
Arabic...etc.?
Half of the people who say they are Turks in Turkey are really of
Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Kurdish, Arabic, and other blood. However, their
ancestors generations ago abandoned their true identity for fear of death.
Please do the math for this because the Turks are the ones who invaded
and came from the Mongol steppes with only yogurt to eat and meat.
-To FREEDOM and TRUTH

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:
: I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to

: unify the nation towards a threat.
: For the Turks, they make the Kurds and Christians as a threat. The
: Turks have to remember that their ancestors are not Turks but the orginal
: inhabitiants of Anatolia.

How about your ancestors, Alex. Do you think that they are real Greeks?
You are just a mixture of Sirbs, Macadenion, Turks, Bulgarian, etc etc +
Greeks. It is easy to realize that you are so much different from real
civilized ancient Greeks in the history.

: The Turks are nothing, but an American....all

: mixed into bowl. The difference is they don't uphold Civil liberties
: towards their minorities.

How about your civil liberties towards Turkish minorities in the Western
Thrace, or towards Macadenion and Albanian. Do you want me to pass all
those info to SCT and SCG again. Have you forgatten again your civil
liberties in Cyprus before 1974 towards the Turkish Cypriot? Let me know
if you want to see all those info from the non-Turkish sources here again!

: Before the Turks came, Anatolia was orginally inhabited by christians.

: How can a huge Turkish population arise from this.

here is the food for thought! all those people in Anatolia were really
originally christans before jesus? or ????????????????? :-)))))
some facts in History*:-)))

: Is it that people were

: converted to be Muslims and had to learn Turkish and eventually abandoned
: their native languages of Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Georgian, Kurdish,
: Arabic...etc.?

you have no clue on the history, my friend. Tell more about Frigia, Lidia
and
so many different civilizations in Anatolia before Greeks. Why did they
all disappear? Can you show me a single person who can speak any of those
languages? or keep his/her own culture? After Greeks period, they all
disappeared, isnt that right? do you think that they were all volunteered
to be assimilated by Greeks? In Turkey and/or outside Turkey, you can
still see the countries or people speaking Arabic,Greek,Armanian, Slavic,
etc., just opposed to the Greek period in Anatolia. food for thought for
you:-) eevn Greeks in Greece can speak their language after your
mainland was ruled over by Turks more than 600 years!

: Half of the people who say they are Turks in Turkey are really of

: Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Kurdish, Arabic, and other blood. However, their
: ancestors generations ago abandoned their true identity for fear of death.

Ha ha ha! can you show me a single real pure Greek person!
you are in a big dream boy! wake up!
Talk about your real identity? can you prove that you are a real Greek?
or mixture of Sirb+Turk+Sirb+etc... :-)))

: Please do the math for this

are you suggesting us to do math? arent you a person who hates the math:-)
Look Alex, you should also do some statictics, and tell us what is the
probability of your ancesstors being a real Greek? I know you are very bad
at math and stat, but just give it a try:-)

:because the Turks are the ones who invaded

: and came from the Mongol steppes with only yogurt to eat and meat.

thats why you are dancing 'Cifte Telli', eating baklava, dolma, lokum,
Turkish doner. If your claim is true then Yogurt must have a spirutual
power, it helps to Turks to kick the butcher todays Greek's butt in
Anotolia, and Cyprus for a couple of times (I called you as todays Greek,
since I do not have any intention to insult the real ancient Greeks).

: -To FREEDOM and TRUTH
:

Read some history books dream boy! You can learn the facts there. Then
lets talk about the truth. I will send many info to this thread about the
freedom and truth in Greece soon. I am certain that you will enjoy reading
the facts about your x-country:-)))))))))))
Hakan

[Erol Keskin]

RACER wrote:

> Friz wrote:
> >
> > You could be right, races are mixed and no one is pure,
> > but there is one thing pure, KURDISTAN.
> > Kurdistan is real!!! and will be free!!!
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > [Image]
>
> You've had too much beans again :-)))

Beans, beans, beans, the magical fruit
The more they eat, the more they toot.

Keh keh keh.

Erol

[RACER]

Alexandros Aliferis wrote:

> Half of the people who say they are Turks in Turkey are really of
> Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Kurdish, Arabic, and other blood.

Who cares as long as they speak a common language, share the same
beliefs, have the same target, and kick Greek butt whenever necessary.

[RACER]

[Friz]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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You could be right, races are mixed and no one is pure,
but there is one thing pure, KURDISTAN.
Kurdistan is real!!! and will be free!!!

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Kurd.gif"

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FouzOyu3fwu4gSu4g0u4hWu4h4u4iau4i8u4jeu4jwu5kTsBBQAAOw==
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[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:
: I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to

here is the final remarks about the todays Greeks! lets see after all you
will keep laughing!

"... In conclusion, I would like to say that, of all the nations of the
world, only Turkey had the humanity to save what was left of the Turkish
Cypriot population after years of ETHNIC CLEANSING in 1974, and only
Turkey now stands for justice in Cyrprus. The preposterous by the Greek
and G/C governments that the T/C are but a rebellious minority and that
the TURKISH PEACE OPERATION of 1974 was an unprovoked act of agression are
still widely beleived in the world at large. Unfortunately, many Americans
(including so me key members of Congress) subscribe to this spurious
version of events, not knowing (or perhaps, not caring) that by promoting
the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus without adequate guarantees
for the protection of T/C community, they are, in fact, promoting the
CREATION of NEW BOSNIA"
by
Pierre Oberling (Prof.)
(from an updated version of a public lecture given at the University of
Texas at Austin on March 7, 1995)

so Alex, after all, you must be more familiar with todays Greeks....
you might have some feelings now hoe civilized they are:-)))))))
Did you realize the differences from the Ancient Greeks (Real Greeks)????
As you said before, Greeks are politic people, yes you are right, but you
can not hide the facts! next time, please come up with some referances
rather than pointless clams!
Hakan

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Some more info on Human rights in Greece!!!
0---------

Turkish Minority in Western Thrace

There are nearly 150 000 ethnic Turks living in Western Thrace in
north-eastern region of Greece.
This community constitutes the Turkish Moslem Minority of Western Thrace
whose status is
established by the Lausanne Peace Treaty of l923. The obligations assumed
by Greece under
"Section III" of this Treaty (Encl. 1) dealing with the protection of
minorities cover the following
basic rights and liberties:

Full and complete protection of life and liberty without distinction
of birth, nationality,
language, race or religion,
Free exercise of any creed, religion or belief,
Full freedom of movement,
Same civil and political rights as other Greek citizens,
Admission to public employments and functions,
Free use of any language in private intercourse, in commerce,
religion, in the press or in
publications of any kind or at public meetings,
Full protection of religious foundations,
Equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense,
any charitable, religious
and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for
instruction and education,
with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own
religion freely therein,
To take into regard for the Turkish Moslem minority, in so far as
this concerns family law or
personal status, measures permitting the settlement of these
questions in accordance with the
customs of the minority,
To grant all facilities and authorisation to the pious foundations
(Wakfs) and the religious and
charitable institutions of the minority.

Furthermore, these rights conferred to the Minority are recognised as
fundamental laws by Greece.
No law, no regulation, nor official action should conflict or interfere
with these stipulations, nor
should any law, regulation, nor official action prevail over them.

Thus, according to the Lausanne Peace Treaty, Greece is under the
obligation to extend to the
Turkish Moslem Minority in Western Thrace the same treatment and security
as to other Greek
citizens.

Despite this, since the signing of this Treaty, with the exception of the
period from the l930's up to
early l950's, there has been a persistent and massive violation of human
rights in Western Thrace.
For years the Greek authorities have been violating their obligations
undertaken according this
Treaty and other international treaties to which Greece is a party.
Furthermore, the attitude of the
same authorities is in contradiction with the principles and values that
have inspired the European
Communities, the principles of the Helsinki Final Act and the Paris
Charter as well as other CSCE
documents and declarations on the questions of minorities and even with
the Greek Constitution
itself.

Today, the members of the Turkish Moslem Minority in Western Thrace
continue to be subjected
to discriminatory treatment in every aspect of their lives:

Denial of Ethnic Identity

It is officially denied that in Greece there exists a Turkish minority. In
fact any allusion to its
existence is a penalty punishable under the law. The post office refuses
to accept written
communications that contain any reference to the minority being Turkish.
Government leaders, even
the Parliament turn down petitions on behalf of the minority if addressed
in the name of the "Turkish"
minority.

Greek courts also have outlawed the use of the word "Turkish" minority. In
1988, the Greek High
Court affirmed a 1986 decision by the Court of Appeals of Thrace in which
Union of Turkish
Association of Western Thrace was ordered closed. The Court held that the
word "Turkish"
referred to citizens of Turkey and that the use of the word "Turkish" to
describe Greek moslems
was held to endanger public order.

This decision has led to vigorous protestations of the Turkish Minority.
As a result of the High
Court's decision, most Turkish associations have remained closed.

Lawsuits were filed against the leaders of the Turkish minority Dr. Sadık
Ahmet and İbrahim Şerif,
during the elections of 1989, for distributing campaign leaflets that
referred to Minority as Turkish.

Many members of the Turkish Minority have been prosecuted during local
election on October 16,
1994 on the ground of using the word "Turkish" in the campaign documents.

Deprivation of citizenship:

Turkish Minority in Western Thrace constituted 65% of the population in
Western Thrace in 1920
when it was ceded to Greece. Now, it only makes up 35% of the population,
despite the high birth
rate. In order to achieve its goal to eradicate the Turkish minority as an
ethnic, religious and cultural
entity, Greece has arbitrarily expelled thousands of minority members from
its citizenship, through
the article 19 of the Greek Nationality Law. (Encl. 2)

Article 19 of the Greek Citizenship Law, reads as follows: " A person of
non-Greek ethic origin
leaving Greece without the intention of returning may be declared as
having lost Greek nationality."

This article which is based on racial premises, has been used as a weapon
to deprive the ethnic
Turks of their citizenship. This article is even in contradiction with
Article 4 of the Greek constitution
which states that "every Greek citizen has the freedom to go abroad and
return to his country; travel
and settlement within the country cannot be restricted."

The Greek authorities, taking advantage of this article have expelled
thousands of Greek citizens of
Turkish Muslim origin. The decision in this connection is an
administrative act and there is no appeal.
Over the years many thousands of the members of the Turkish Muslim
Minority have lost their
Greek citizenship due to expulsion under Article 19. families. It is the
only racially based citizenship
law in Europe and it is still in force today.

Educational Problems

Turkish Minority's problems in the educational field are continuing with
added gravity, in
contravention of the provisions of the Lausanne Treaty, the 1951 Cultural
Agreement and the 1968
Protocol between Greece and Turkey. Deprived of proper teachers,
educational material and
modern buildings, children of the minority are faced with the alternatives
of either becoming
undereducated second class citizens, or going to Turkey for education and
getting alienated from
their land and in many cases, losing their citizenship as a result.

There are numerous problems in the educational field.

To name a few:

The minority today can neither establish, nor manage and control its
educational establishments
despite the explicit provisions of the Lausanne Treaty.

By order of the Minister of Education, an arbitrary system of lottery has
been imposed for the
selection of students to enroll in the two minority high schools in 1993.
According to the new
regulation, the Celal Bayar High School in Komotini is authorized to
accept sixty new students,
whereas, the quota for the Muzaffer Salih High Sclool in Xanthi is limited
to only thirty newcomers.
This is a stark indication of how Greece treats the Turkish Moslem
Minority, since every year about
one thousand students graduate from the Minority primary schools. As
stated above, the Lausanne
Treaty gives the Minority the right to establish its own educational
institutions. The reactions of the
Turkish Moslem Minority as well as the reaction of some Greek circles to
this exercise have gone
unheeded.

The minority also is deprived of the right to choose their own teachers.
Since 1968, the Greek State
is unilaterally training "minority teachers" in the so called "Special
Pedagogical Academ

[Erhan]

Hanife hanim,

Tartismak iyi birsey. Ama bazen tartismalar bir SIKAYETe donusuyor
(bakiniz bu yazinizi hangi haber gruplarina postalamissiniz).

Ben bunun SIZE ve BIZE ne hayiri olacagini merak ediyorum.
Sonunda bu isi cozecek Kurt ve Turk'dur.

Ustelik bir cok yazilarda bir genellestirme yapiliyor, Turkler veya
'the Turks' diye bahs ediliyor. Bu sistemi ayakta tutan Turk'ler
degildir, yukarida 'kaymak yiyenler' diye adlandirdiginiz kisilerdir.
Bunlarin arasinda Kurt'ler de olmali. Sizin kadar olmasada Turk'lerde
bu sistemdem zarar goruyor (gunde 14 saat calisip evdeki cocuklarinin
karnini doyuramamak).

Bakin, ben bu konularda uzman degilim. Tarih'i fazla bilmem, ama
bugunu bilirim. Ve duruma birseyler yapilmasi gerekilmesi oldugunu
goruyorum. Herkes elinden geldigini yapmasini isterim. Etrafimda KURT
kelimesi bir TABUdur ama yinede bol kullanirim ve inanirmisiz bu kucuk
bir seyin bile faydasi oldu ! Kurt'lere kotu bakan ve kotu konusan
ESAS BOLUCU ve TERORISTIR diye epey zamandir soyledim cevremde, bunun
etkisi oldu inanin !

Ben KURT'un gercek yuzunu gormek istiyorum! Bize Kurt'leri tanitin,
PKK'yi degil.

Hepimiz biliriz Kurt'lerin sesi guzeldir (hani derler ya, Urfa'da
katir agirsa bile dinlelinir) ve bir cok sanatci Kurt'tur. Bence bunu
saklamamalari lazim.
Birde hep merak ederim MILLI takimda Kurt varmi diye, olsa ne guzel
olur :)

Sonra, birde Kurt'ce bir iki kelime ogretin bize, neden olmasin ?
Siz bizim dilimizi ogrendiniz, biz neden sizinkini ogrenmiyelim.
Nevete ciye? Saati ciye?

Saygilarimla,
Erhan

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Now, lets see who is supporting this terrorist group (Alex, food for
thought:-)

**************************************************
Relations Between Greece and PKK

Greece has traditionally adopted a supportive attitude to all elements
hostile to Turkey.

PKK is no exception to that.

Members of several illegal organizations, including PKK separatists, who
left Turkey often without
proper travel documents following the military takeover of 1980, took
refuge in Greece to reside at
Camp Lavrion in the vicinity of Athens.

ERNK and Kurdistan Committee branches have been set up in Athens in 1985
and 1986.

Kurdish separatist activities are presently being carried out by a
militant of Turkish citizenship named
Hasan Daş. Periodical meetings are held by separatist organisations and
propaganda activity is
intense. Some minor publications continue to appear.

A group composed of one New Democracy Party and three PASOK
parliamentarians, some
journalists and retired generals visited PKK camps in Bekaa Valley in
October 1991 during New
Democracy Government.

- On the occasion of Nevruz ("New Day" : yearly spring celebrations of 21
March), a group of
Greek politicians have organized on 20 March 1992 a joint press conference
with the ERNK in the
Bekaa Valley. Lefteros Verivakis, Dimitris Vounatsos and Elizabeth
Papazoi, three members of the
Greek Parliament

from the PASOK Party were among those who participated in the conference.
It has to be
underlined that these politicians had met with Abdullah Öcalan, leader of
PKK, prior to the press
conference during which they made declarations in support of the terrorist
activities against Turkey.
Spokesman of the Greek New Democracy Party was also included in this group
of PKK
supporters.

- In February 1993, a group of Greek parliamentarians (PASOK deputies
Alexandra Damianidi,
Theodoros Kacanevas, Pangiotis Sguridis, Yorgos Prasayannakis, former
Defense Minister Orestos
Papastratis and former Agriculture Minister Mashos Gikonoglu) and
Hacilotis who is the
representative of the Archbishop of Greece, have visited the so-called
Kurdish Diaspora Assembly
in Brussels. They have reportedly exchanged views with the Kurds on the
subjects of the "genocide"
committed by the Turkish army, providing support to the Kurds and raising
public awareness about
the Kurdish issue. They visited the UN office in Brussels to submit a
petition against Turkey. During
this visit three deputies from the New Democracy Party read out a message
where they declared
their solidarity with the "Kurds" and expressed that "Greeks and Kurds
were fighting together
against the aggression of the common enemy".

- On 8 July 1993, the Greek government has permitted ERNK; the affiliated
organization of PKK,
to hold a press conference on the island of Cos which is located only few
miles from the Turkish
coast. A retired admiral of the Greek navy and representatives of some
Greek political parties have
reportedly participated to this press conference.

The terrorist group was thus given the opportunity to declare publicly its
intention to perpetrate
terrorist attacks in touristic regions of Turkey.

- ERNK was also permitted by the Greek authorities to carry out a poster
campaign aiming to
prevent the flow of tourists to Turkey. Furthermore, on 20 July 1993, the
"Kurdistan committee" in
Athens has sent to all travel agencies in Greece a declaration signed by
ERNK announcing that the
"Kurdish attacks" in the touristic regions of Turkey would continue.

- According to press reports, Papathemelis, then Minister for Public
Order, has received a PKK
delegation on 10 October 1993.

- In November 1993, the visit of five Greek parliamentarians (Nora Kaceli,
ias Papailias, Dimitris
Vounatos, Panayiotis Kamenas and Maria Mahera) to Diyarbakěr (Turkey) was
announced by the
press as having taken place upon the invitation of ERNK Office in Athens.
The press reports have
also indicated the purpose of the visit as expressing "support of the
Greek people to the fight of the
Kurdish people for freedom".

- Following the wave of PKK terrorist attacks on Turkish targets in
several European cities on 4
November 1993. Turkey has requested Greece to ban PKK and its affiliate
organizations and
stressed that the attitude of Greece in this regard would have a
determining effect on the future
course of bilateral relations. State Minister Papandreou, to whom this
request was conveyed by the
Turkish representative in Athens, gave a negative reply.

- Four Greek parliamentarians (Leonardos Hadziandreou, Costa Boduvas,
Michael Galenianos and
Maria Mahera) participated to the Convention of DEP held in Ankara on 12
December 1993. In
their speeches they expressed support for "the war of the Kurds". They
used the same expressions
at the press conference they held when they returned to Athens. It has to
be underlined that Greek
parliamentarians made provocative statements against the territorial
integrity of Turkey not only in
Greece but also while they were visiting Turkey.

- An association named "Greek-Kurdish Friendship Association" organized on
18 December 1993
in Athens, a meeting of support to the "Kurdish people". The said
Association carries out activities
aiming to provide "financial, moral and diplomatic support to the Kurdish
people".

- A Greek NGO named "League for Peoples Rights and Liberation" has
launched on 17 January
1994 a "campaign of solidarity with the Kurdish people". Mihalis
Haralambidis is the President of
this NGO. He is also a member of the Central

Committee of PASOK. At the press conference organized for the inauguration
of the campaign, he
was accompanied by Damyanos Vasiliyadis, President of the Greek-Kurdish
Friendship
Association and Themas Stogoropoulos, a retired ambassador. At the said
press conference, the
objective of the campaign was declared as collecting 200 million Drahmas
to provide financial
support to the "struggle of Kurdistan". The posters which are used in this
campaign contain a map
where southeastern Turkey is represented as "Kurdish territories".

- On 22 January 1994, the municipality of Dedeaşaç and the "Endohora"
periodical have jointly
organized a meeting called "the Kurds".

- Greek support to PKK is channelled not only through NGO's.
Municipalities also play a role in
the forefront. At a press conference held on 22 March 1994 in Athens,
eight mayors have declared
that their support for the liberation of "Kurdistan" was not only moral
but also material.

- A Kurdish refugee named Serim Murat declared in an interview published
in "Rizospastis" daily of
20 March 1994, that the Greek authorities were lenient towards persons
like him. In fact,
Mr.Sgurides, Deputy Speaker of the Greek Parliament, declared to the Greek
Cypriot daily
"Simerini" of 27 March 1994, that "all Kurds persecuted by the Turkish
State are accepted to
Greece as refugees".

- It has been established that a number of PKK terrorists have entered the
Turkish territory from
Greece. The Turkish television "TRT-2" broadcasted on March 1994 a program
on the subject. In
the said program. Hasan Yělmaz (code name: Hasan Daş), the PKK
representative in Athens, has
declared the following to a newsman named Cevat Taylan:

"We take under our protection the Kurds who come to Greece. These persons
are free to go to
serve in the Kurdish military (this means they are free to join the PKK
ranks). In fact, many of them
insist on joining the military. However, we impose certain conditions. We
do not send there the
persons who are not suitable for the service."

- Two persons named Çěnar Gündoşdu and Aladdin Hasan were sentenced to 8
years of
imprisonment on the grounds of enabling certain Kurds to enter Greece
illegally. They were later on
released by the decision of a higher court. They were presented in the
press reports as "Kurdish
patriots and refugees". Press reports indicate that they are members of
the ERNK office in Athens.

- The PKK has opened on 5 April 1994 its second office in Athens under the
name of "The ERNK
Representation in Greece and in the Balkans". The office's address is
"Vasilisis Sofias No.4". The
other PKK office in Athens is operational at the address od "Ipokratus 72"
under the name of
"Greece-Kurdistan Committee".

At the opening ceremony of second PKK office, Mr.Ali Sapan, a publicly
known PKK member,
read out the message of Abdullah Öcalan, leader of the PKK. Ali Sapan has
also declared that they
would intensify their attacks against touristic targets in Turkey.
Mr.Panayiotis Sguridis, Deputy
Speaker of the Parliament and four parliamentarians (Dimitris Vounatsos,
Mijhalis, Galeneanos,
Yiannis Stathopoulos and Maria Mahera) have participated in the opening
ceremony.
Mr.Haralambidis, member of the PASOK Central Committee took also part in
the ceremony.

The flag of the PKK was placed in front of the ERNK office. The PKK flag
remained in that place
for a period of ten days.

- Four PKK terrorists who were caught after having perpetrated a bombed
attack in Grand Bazaar
of Istanbul, confessed that they had been trained in camps located in
Greece and sent to Turkey to
perpetrate terrorist acts.

- On 25 June 1994, Mr.Kostas Boduvas, a PASOK deputy, participated in the
demonstration
organized by the PKK in Frankfurt.

- On 5 July 1994, the Greek authorities permitted PKK to open a "Kurdish
Red Crescent Society"
in Athens. Mr.Bantouvas, a PASOK parliamentarian, Mr.Rumbakiotis, Deputy
Chairman of Athens
Bar Association and the representative of the Greek Red Cross took part in
the opening ceremony.
The objective of the society has been declared as "offering medical
treatment to Kurdish guerrillas
wounded in the ongoing war in the Turkish Kurdistan and helping spouses
and children of the
Kurdish guerrillas who are in Turkish prison."

- On 20-21 September 1994 PASOK Deputies Mr.Kostas Banduvas, Dimitris
Vounatsos and
Hristos Kipouros and retired Admiral Mr.Naksakis who is known as an
emminent supporter of
PKK and Mr.Dimitris Martos, representative of the "League for Peoples
Rights and Liberation"
participated in a Pro-PKK meeting organized in Sofia. The said Greek
representatives once again
expressed their views for the support to PKK.

- On 17 November 1994, 22 Greek Deputies stated that they sent a letter to
the European
countries condemning the arrest of Kani Yělmaz in London, representative
of "ERNK" for Europe.

Mr. Sguridis, Deputy Speaker of Greek Parliament, PASOK Deputies, Kostas
Banduvas, Dimitris
Vounatsos, New Democracy Deputies, Mr.Kamenos and Mr.Mihail Galenianos
were again among
the said 22 Signatory Deputies.

- At the end of November 1994, 31 PASOK Deputies became signatories of the
letter sent to the
Greek Foreign Minister for the issuence of an entry visa to Greece for
Kani Yělmaz.

- Furthermore, campaing against Turkish tourism have been carried in
parallel to the aforementioned
activities in Greece.

- Greece has permitted Revolutionary Populist Communist Party (DHKPC), a
branch of Dev-Sol
to open a bureau in May 1995.

- On 14 June 1995, six Greek parliamentarians representing the main stream
Greek political parties
(except the Communist Party) visited the leader of terrorist organization
in Syria and expressed their
support for the "struggle of PKK" and honored him with a shield. The said
Greek parliamentary
delegation was headed by the Deputy Speaker of the Greek Parliament.

- The statements made after the above-mentioned responsible visit by the
Deputy Speaker of the
Greek Parliament Mr. Panagiotis Sgouridis and the Government Spokesmen Mr.
Elefteros
Venizelos were controversial.

While Mr. Sgourides stating that, the mixed Parliamentary delegation was
representing the Greek
Parliament and terrorist organization PKK is being recognized as a
"Political Party", Mr. Venizelos
termed the visit of the Greek parliamentarians as their personal
initiative and claimed that the
government is not responsible from the activities of the Greek MPs.

- Also in June 1995, Mr. Ya_ar Kaya, "President of the so called Kurdish
Parliament" together with
two of his supporters visited Athens and welcomed as if he is an official
dignitary received again by
Mr. Sgouridis, Deputy Speaker of the Greek Parliament and realized
meetings with some of the
Greek MPs, and spoke at a largely covered press conference.

- USA has made various representations to Greek Government regarding the
stand of the Greek
Government on terrorism.

In this regard, in the report prepared by the State Department and
presented to the Congress on
"Patterns of Global Terrorism 1994" it is stated that Greece became the
venue for large number of
terrorist attacks and that Greek authorities made little progress against
terrorist groups, due to
ambivalent government attitude toward counter terrorism.

- We are informed that USA, Germany, France, Italy, Austria, Sweden and
Finland, as countries
sending tourists to Greece, have made a collective representation to the
Greek Government
regarding lack of political will of the Greek authorities in the struggle
against terrorism.

- Turkey is closely monitoring the Greek Government's attitude towards
PKK.

- We have warned the Greek Government not to lend any support to this
organization and asked
them to fulfill their international obligations in combat against
terrorism.

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:

[-Surensoy,E.]

Good job Hakan!!

Congratulations !!!

Indeed, their purpose is to create another Bosnia; they all know
so well that until the very end, the whole uncivilized Europe
will stand watch and prevent others to intervene until all
Turks will be wiped off the face of Earth. This is called Western
(un)Civilization.

..//..

In article <6055e9$9i9$8...@mark.ucdavis.edu),
Hakan Basagaoglu <hbas...@catbert.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
)Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
):
): I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to
)
)
)here is the final remarks about the todays Greeks! lets see after all you
)will keep laughing!
)
)"... In conclusion, I would like to say that, of all the nations of the
)world, only Turkey had the humanity to save what was left of the Turkish
)Cypriot population after years of ETHNIC CLEANSING in 1974, and only
)Turkey now stands for justice in Cyrprus. The preposterous by the Greek
)and G/C governments that the T/C are but a rebellious minority and that
)the TURKISH PEACE OPERATION of 1974 was an unprovoked act of agression are
)still widely beleived in the world at large. Unfortunately, many Americans
)(including so me key members of Congress) subscribe to this spurious
)version of events, not knowing (or perhaps, not caring) that by promoting
)the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus without adequate guarantees
)for the protection of T/C community, they are, in fact, promoting the
)CREATION of NEW BOSNIA"
)by
)Pierre Oberling (Prof.)
)(from an updated version of a public lecture given at the University of
)Texas at Austin on March 7, 1995)
)
)so Alex, after all, you must be more familiar with todays Greeks....
)you might have some feelings now hoe civilized they are:-)))))))
)Did you realize the differences from the Ancient Greeks (Real Greeks)????
)As you said before, Greeks are politic people, yes you are right, but you
)can not hide the facts! next time, please come up with some referances
)rather than pointless clams!
)Hakan

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Alex, Dost:-)
You have no clue on what pkk is... It is a separatist terrorist
organization which has support only from Greece, Syria, Russia.
Here is the UN declaration about the terrorism, read but at leeast this
time try to understand it:-)

****************

OSCE COMMITMENTS REGARDING TERRORISM

· Helsinki Final Act (1975)

Accordingly, they will, inter alia, refrain from direct or indirect
assistance to terrorist activities, or to
subversive or other activities directed towards the violent overthrow of
the regime of another
participating State. (pp.80Part 1., Chapter VI.)

· Concluding Document of the Madrid Follow Up Meeting (1983)

The participating States condemn terrorism, including terrorism in
international relations, as
endangering or taking innocent human lives or otherwise jeopardizing human
rights and fundamental
freedoms, and emphasize the necessity to take resolute measures to combat
it. They express their
determination to take effective measures for the prevention and
suppression of acts of terrorism,
both at the national level and through international co-operation
including appropriate bilateral and
multilateral agreements, and accordingly to broaden and reinforce mutual
co_operation to combat
such acts. They agree to do so in conformity with the Charter of the
United Nations, the United
Nations Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly
Relations and
Co-operation among States and the Helsinki Final Act.

In the context of the combat against acts of terrorism, they will take all
appropriate measures in
preventing their respective terrítories from being used for the
preparation, organization or
commission of terrorist activities, including those directed against other
participating States and their
citizens. This also includes measures to prohibit on their territories
illegal activities of persons, groups
and organizations that instigate, organize or engage in the perpetration
of acts of terrorism.

The participating States confirm that they will refrain from direct or
indirect assistance to terrorist
activities or to subversive or other activities directed towards the
violent overthrow of the regime of
another participating State. Accordingly, they will refrain, inter alia,
from financing, encouraging,
fomenting or tolerating any such activities.

They express their determination to do their utmost to assure necessary
security to all official
representatives and persons who participate on their territories in
activities within the scope of
diplomatic, consular or other official relations. (pp. 34,35)

· Document of the Stockholm Conference on Confidence-and Security-Building
Measures
and Disarmament in Europe (1986)

They emphasize the necessity to take resolute measures to prevent and to
combat terrorism,
including terrorism in international relations. They express their
determination to take effective
measures, both at the national level and through international
co-operation, for the prevention and
suppression of all acts of terrorism. They will take all appropriate
measures in preventing their
respective territories from being used for the preparation, organization
or commission of terrorist
activities. This also includes measures to prohibit on their territories
illegal activities, including
subversive activities, of persons, groups and organizations that
instigate, organize or engage in the
perpetration of acts of terrorism, including those directed against other
States and their citizens.
(Para.25)

· Concluding Document of the Vienna Follow Up Meeting (1989)

The participating States unreservedly condemn, as criminal, all acts,
methods and practices of
terrorism, wherever and by whomever committed, including those which
jeopardize friendly
relations among States and their security, and agree that terrorism cannot
be justified under any
circumstances.

They express their determination to work for the eradication of terrorism
both bilaterally and
through multilateral co-operation, particularly in such international fora
as the United Nations, the
International Civil Aviation Organization and the International Maritime
Organization and in
accordance with the relevant provisions of the Final Act and the Madrid
Concluding Document.

Convinced of the need to combine measures at a national level with
reinforced international
co-operation, the participating States express their intention

- to pursue a policy of firmness in response to terrorist demands;

-to reinforce and develop bilateral and multilateral co-operation among
themselves in order to
prevent and combat terrorism as well as to increase efficiency in existing
co-operation at the
bilateral level or in the framework of groups of States including, as
appropriate, through the
exchange of information;

-to prevent on their territories illegal activities of persons, groups or
organizations that instigate,
organize or engage in the perpetration of acts of terrorism or subversive
or other activities directed
towards the violent overthrow of the regime of another participating
State;

-to take effective measures for the prevention and suppression of acts of
terrorism directed at the
diplomatic or consular representatives and against terrorism involving
violations of the Vienna
Conventions on Diplomatic and Consular Relations, in particular their
provisions relating to
diplomatic and consular privileges and immunities;

-to ensure the extradition or prosecution of persons implicated in
terrorist acts and to co-operate
closely in cases of conflict of jurisdiction where several States are
concerned, acting in both respects
in accordance with the relevant international agreements;

- to consider becoming parties, if they have not yet done so, to the
relevant international conventions
relating to the suppression of acts of terrorism;

- to continue to work in the appropriate international bodies in order to
improve and extend
measures against terrorism and to ensure that the relevant agreements are
accepted and acted upon
by as many States as possible. (pp.6, Para.s 8,9,10)

Document of the Copenhagen Meeting of the Conference on the Human
Dimension
(1990)

The participating States declare that the will of the people, freely and
fairly expressed through
periodic and genuine elections, is the basis of the authority and
legitimacy of all government. The
participating States will accordingly respect the right of their citizens
to take part in the governing of
their country, either directly or through representatives freely chosen by
them through fair electoral
processes. They recognize their responsibility to defend and protect, in
accordance with their laws,
their international human rights obligations and their international
commitments, the democratic order
freely established through the will of the people against the activities
of persons, groups or
organizations that engage in or refuse to renounce terrorism or violence
aimed at the overthrow of
that order or of that of another participating State. (Para.6)

· Charter of Paris (1990)

Although the threat of conflict in Europe has diminished, other dangers
threaten the stability of our
societies. We are determined to co-operate in defending democratic
institutions against activities
which violate the independence, sovereign equality or territorial
integrity of the participating States.
These include illegal activities involving outside pressure, coercion and
subversion.

We unreservedly condemn, as criminal, all acts, methods and practices of
terrorism and express our
determination to work for its eradication both bilaterally and through
multilateral co-operation. We
will also join together in combating illicit trafficking in drugs. (pp.18)

· Helsinki Document (1992)

Declaration

We restate our unreserved condemnation of all acts, methods and practices
of terrorism. We are
determined to enhance our co-operation to eliminate this threat to
security, democracy and human
rights. To this end, we will take measures to prevent in our territories
criminal activities that support
acts of terrorism in other States. We will encourage exchange of
information concerning terrorist
activities. We will seek further effective avenues for co-operation as
appropriate. We will also take
the necessary steps at a national level to fulfil our international
obligations in this field.

· Budapest Document (1994)

a) Summit Declaration

We recognize that societies in the CSCE region are increasingly threatened
by terrorism. We
reiterate our unreserved condemnation of all acts and practices of
terrorism, which cannot be
justified under any circumstances. We reconfirm our determination to
combat terrorism and our
commitment for enhanced co-operation to eliminate this threat to security,
democracy and human
rights. (Para.ó)

b) Decisions

The participating States will not support terrorist acts in any way and
will take appropriate measures
to prevent and combat terrorism in all its forms. They will co_operate
fully in combating the threat of
terrorist activities through ìmplementation of international instruments
and commitments they agree
upon in this respect. They will, in particular, take steps to fulfil the
requirements of international
agreements by which they are bound to prosecute or extradite terrorists.
(Part.IV, ChapterII,
Para.6)

· Rapporteurs' Report of the Warsaw Human Dimension Implementation Meeting
(1995)

One delegation noted that consideration should be given within the OSCE to
the subject of human
rights and terrorism. It suqaested that this subject should be further
dealt with by including it in the
agenda of the next Implementation Meeting on Human Dimension Issues.
(pp.8)

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:

: I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to

--

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

well, Alex, here is the another example for todays Greeks' attrocities.
I had sent this info many times both to SCG and SCT before. But I dont
blame you, some people needs to read the same thing more than 100 times to
understand even a single sentence:-)))

-----
First Part
Enjoy the Facts
-------

From: National Review, 12.06.1995
by Brian Cozier

"Greek Cypriot terrorist movement led by political bandit called George
Grivas had one simple aim: Enosis or union with Greece."
...
"In my view, the Turkish intervention of 1974 was not an invasion, as
widely
accepted, but a morally justified rescue operation."
.....
"I regret the Greek rejection of a federal solution, which alone makes
sense
to me."
.....
"Greek Cypriots are trying to make life uncomfortable for Northern Cyprus
by
cutting of gas and electricity daily."
.....
"There are warning signs today in the Greek Cypriot Republic..."
...for months past, a Russian Mafia and ex-KGB presence has been building
up
there. There is a massive arms build-up as well... There are also
reliable
reports on a still more sinister development, with the training of
anti-Turkish, leninist terrorists of the PKK in the South (Greek
Cypriot)..."

======
From: PERIODIKA, 6.2.1994 (Greek Cypriot weekly magazine)
(From an interview with Mr. Ayionatitis, the leader of the Greek Political
Party "Ergatikei Demokratika Association")

"Greek Cypriot leadership says that the Cyprus problem began in 1974; but
it
began long before this and even before the independence
(1960)...Power-holders on our side were oppressing Turkish Cypriots before
1974..."
"...We should not forget that before 1974 Turkish Cypriots had been
treated
like Negroes...Turks were doing the worst work but receiving the least
money.
Turks had not had any control over the island's economy."
"Reverting to the state of affairs before 1974 would not be a justified
move
at all. turks will never agree to this. And we have to admit one more
thing:
If Turkey arrived in 1974 to save the Turkish Cypriots, the latter were
really in need of being saved. No one could know what the coupists would
do
if they took over. Turkish Cypriots were concerned about their fate in
case
Cyprus was united with Greece and they were justified with their concern.
It
is because of this concern that Turkish Cypriots have been fighting
against
Enosis since 1945. Under this climate, there remains to be no
justification
for refugees to return to their homes."
=====
From: THE WIND BLOWS
MEMOIRS OF SIR ALEC DOUGLAS-HUME, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE UK

"...I was early convinced that if Archbishop Makarios could not bring
himself
to treat the Turkish Cypriots as human beings, he was inviting the
invasion
and partition of the island."
======
from: VOICE OF GERMANY, 30.07.1974
(FROM AN INTERVIEW WITH MS INGRID HEBIL, A GERMAN TOURIST IN CYPRUS)

"...the human mind cannot comprehend the Greeks butchery. Greek National
Guard....entering the Turkish homes, ruthlessly rained bullets on women
and
children, they cut the throats of many Turks; rounding up the Turkish
women,
they...raped them all..."
=====
from: THE UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL, 20.08.1974
"...Every hour new ditches and numerous corpses are being discovered. it
is
very difficult to endure the job..."
======
From: NBC, NATIONAL BROADCASTING CORPORATION, 29.07.1974
JOHN PALMER REPORTING:
"....In the Turkish village of Aleminio, the Turks were collected in front
of
a wall and the Greek national army shot them all and killed them
indiscriminately..."
=====
From: THE WASHINGTON POST, 23.07.1974
"...In a Greek raid on a small village near Limassol, 36 people out of the
population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said they had been given orders
to
kill the inhabitants before the Turkish forces arrived.."
=====
From: UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL (upi), USA, 23.07.1074
"...the Greeks killed many women and children in Limassol. I have seen the
bodies of 20 children lying on the road...some were wounded and
crying...the
Greek soldiers are waiting for their turn to enter in the Turkish homes
and
kill the women..."
=====
From: THE LONDON TIMES, 22.07.1974
"In the island, thousands of Turks were held as hostages. turkish women
were
raped and Turkish children killed on the streets. The Turkish Quarter in
Limassol was burnt down. The incidents have been confirmed by Greek
Cypriots."
=====
From: EVENING STANDARD, 19.07.1074
"...today, early in the morning Greek ships boarded on Famagusta (the main
seaport of Cyprus) port and discharged Greek soldiers fully furnished with
modern arms...soon after the discharge, atrocities started to take
place....Cyprus is not a soverign state anymore...Widespread massacre is
taking place all over the island..."
"...At the main police station, one witness saw people tied to each
other....they were later executed.."
=====
From: A STATEMENT BY MAKARIOS AS QUOTED IN THE GREEK YPRIOT PRESS OF 17
MARCH
1965
"...We shall keep the Cyprus question open and will never close it under
any
circumstances or conditions....until we close it through union with
Greece, a
genuine ENOSIS without exchanges."
======
From: THE STATEMENT OF ARCHBISHOP MAKARIOS, AUGUST 1964
"...If Turkey comes in order to save Turkish Cypriots, Turkey will find no
Turkish Cypriots to save..".
=====
From: WASHINGTON POST, 17.02.1964
"...the fanatic Greeks are gradually approaching to ethnic genocide..."
=====
From: WASHINGTON POST, 16.02.1964
ARTICLE BY ROBERT H. ESTABROOK, 16.02.1964
"...Archbishop Makarios, robed adn bearded cleric who serves as President
of
Cyprus, has a Byzantine talent for equitation....his Government
deliberately
provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of the Turkish
population..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Second Part
----
Enjoy the facts
----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Turkish State of Cyprus which was established in 1963,finally declared it's
independence on 15th of NOVEMBER 1983.

The Greco-Turkish State of Cyprus which was established in 1960 was collapsed in 1963,
after Greek/Greek Cypriots armed forces launched attacks against Turkish Cypriots in
order to achieve Enosis.

The American writer Andrew Borowiec describes the atrocities commited against Turkish
Cypriots in the following words:
"Towns and villages were littered with corpses; within months some 24,000 Turkish
Cypriots fled their villages to seek protection in larger enclaves..... In 1964
a multinational UN force was dispatched to the island. CYPRUS became LACED with
BARBED WIRE, dotted with gun emplacements and scarred by burned out and abondoned
villages."

(The Mediterranean Feud by Andrew Borowiec,
Praeger Publishers, 1983, New York, p.96-97)

Greek Cypriot author Zenon Stavrinides in his book ' The Cyprus Conflict'
describes The Turkish Cpriots political stand within the years of 1963 and 1974
as follow:

".... intercommunal fighting broke out in December 1963, thus bringing about the
collapse of the unitary Greco - Turkish State of Cyprus. Within the armed enclaves which
the Turks created, a system of political, administrative, judical, social and other
institutions was set up, which eventually took almost ALL THE ORGANIC CHARACTERISTICS of
a small STATE. The Greeks ofcourse, refused to recognise it, and the Turks did not ask
for recognition from other countries..... But although it lacked the name of a state
what the Turkish Cypriots created was in essence a small national state, EXISTING within
DEFENDED BORDERS,with its own Goverment, public services and even luxuries.....
Dr Kutchuk headed the Turkish Cypriot Administration until 1973, when he was succeeded
by Mr Rauf Denktash."

(Zenon Stavrinides,
The Cyprus Conflict)

In an interview with the correspondent of Frankfurther Rundshau as published in the
Cyprus Mail on 16 May 1974; Greek Cypriot President Makarios states "ENOSIS has allways
been for the Greek Cypriots a deep rooted national aspiration. To me independence is a
compromise. In other words, if I had a free choice between Enosis and independence,
I would support Enosis."

In another interview with Maria Rejane of Le Point, published on 19 February 1973,
Makarios stated ".... If I had any ambitions, my greatest ambition would be for my name
to be associated with Enosis."

On 15th July 1974 Greek/Greek Cypriot armed forces launched another attack on Turkish
Cypriots to achieve Enosis.

On 20th July 1974 Turkey intervenes in Cyprus under the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee.

On 13th february 1975 Turkish Federated State of Cyprus declared.

On 15th of November 1983, TURKISH REPUBLIC of NORTHERN CYPRUS was established
by the self determenation of the people of North Cyprus.

HAPPY TRNC DAY TO ALL OF YOU

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Part III
enjoy the facts
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that a succinct 'Greek article' containing useful timely
information about the Greek crime of genocide against the Muslims
and Jews merits discussion with a 'hella'. I don't care to take
sides in your ongoing debate with 'Yalin Ekici' but the above drivel,
as chic as it is in Greece, can't be left unchallenged. Greek propaganda
organs resorted to all sorts of baseless propaganda methods, in an
attempt to discredit the Turkish nation and the Turkish Cypriot
people before the eyes of the world public opinion and to present
them to the world as a destructive race. They somehow forget to
mention or try to hide the fact that during the 1963-1974 period,
the cultural and historical heritage of the Turkish Cypriots was
not only neglected, but was also subjected to a systematic and
deliberate destruction by Greek Cypriots and their leadership,
as part and parcel of their policy to eliminate everything in
the island which indicated Turkish existence.

Three methods were used in achieving this:

(1) The first method was to plunder or destroy all such heritage
during attacks launched against Turkish villages. The following is
a list of mosques which were destroyed in this way:

Omerie Mosque Korakou Mosque
Bayraktar Mosque Aredhio Mosque
Tahtakale Mosque Ay Marina Mosque
Araplar Mosque Linou Mosque
Dukkanlar Onu Mosque Vrolsha Mosque
Eliophodes Mosque Selemani Mosque
Kato Deftera Mosque Sellain T'Appi Mosque
Kato Lakadamia Mosque Arnadhi Mosque
Ayios Vasilios Mosque Ayios Thoedoros Mosque
Omorphita Mosque Styllos Mosque
Skylloura Mosque Asha Mosque
Potamia Mosque Peristerona (Piyi) Mosque
Kokkina Mosque Lefkoniko Mosque
Pyroi Mosque Melanarga Mosque
Petra Mosque Monarga Mosque
Trakhoni Mosque Vitsadha Mosque
Neokhorio Mosque Aloda Mosque
Mathiati Mosque Perivolia tou Trikomou Mosque
Ayios Georgios Mosque Ephtakomi Mosque
Kataliondas Mosque Moniatis Mosque
Psomolophou Mosque Anoyira Mosque
Akaki Mosque Kilani Mosque
Morphou Mosque Kato Kividhes Mosque
Orunda Mosque Yerovasa Mosque
Peristerona Mosque Malia Mosque
Dhenia Mosque Silikou Mosque
Prastio Mosque Phalosu Mosque
Paphos Mosque Eledhiou Mosque
Mansoura Mosque Amergeti Mosque
Dhali Mosque Asproyia Mosque
Solea Mosque Pitargou Mosque
Aylenja Mosque Polis Mosque
Palekythro Mosque Khoulou Mosque
Ayios Sozomenos Mosque Kritou Terra Mosque
Ayios Epiphanios Mosque Loukrounu Mosque
Mamoundali Mosque Lemba Mosque
Kithasi Mosque Kato Paphos Mosque
Haci Mehmet Tekke Prastio (Kithasi) Mosque
Timi Mosque Turabi Mosque and Shrine
Ayios Epiktitos Mosque Sophtates Mosque
Trapeza Mosque Anophodia Mosque
Keumurju Mosque Anglisidhes Mosque
Vasilia Mosque Maroni Mosque
Dhiorios Mosque Kalavassos Mosque
Ayios Ermolaos Mosque Lefkara Mosque
Hz. Omer Shrine Mosque Pyrga Mosque
Kyrenia Mosque Ayia Anna Mosque
Umm Haram Mosque Acemzade Mescidi Mosque
Aplanda Mosque Zuhuri Mosque
Alethriko Mosque

(2) The second method was to knock down such historical monuments
on the pretext of constructing car parks, roads or public buildings.
The Dukkanlar Onu Mosque in Paphos and the Pertevpasa Mosque and
the Yenicami Mosque in Maras (Varosha) can be cited as examples
of Turkish historical monuments which were knocked down, partly
or wholly, and converted into car parks.

(3) The third method was to abandon such historical monuments to
the mercy of antique dealers, or to the adverse effect of weather
conditions.

Needless to say, during this period not a single penny was paid
to the Turkish Cypriots by the Greek Cypriot leadership from the
aid they received from UNESCO or other organizations for the
preservation of the historical and cultural heritage of Cyprus.

--------------

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)

******************************************************************

Example for human rights in Greece!!!
Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!

- 12 August 1996

The exterior wall facing the street of Atatürk's house, in the grounds of
the Turkish Thessalonaki
Consulate-General was spray-painted in red with a slogan reading
"F...Turkey". In response to
official Turkish representations the grafitti was erased by the Greek
police on the same day.

- 13 August 1996

A group which was largely composed of members of the PKK, demonstrated
infront of the Turkish
Embassy in Athens at approximately 1:25 p.m. The demonstrators who carried
PKK and ERNK
banners, and some Greek and Greek Cypriot flags, burnt the Turkish flag.
After 30 minutes, the
demonstration had turned into a predominantly PKK rally and a fight broke
out between the
members of the PKK and Greek-Greek Cypriot demonstrators. As a result, the
PKK members
were removed from the demonstration by the Greek police. During the
demonstration the Greek
security authorities took effective measures around the Turkish Embassy.

- 14 August 1996

In the evening, at 18:30 hours, a group of 40 people composed of Greeks
and Greek Cypriots,
arrived at the Turkish Consulate-General in Thessalonoki and held a
demonstration. Contrary to
prior practices, the Greek police allowed demonstrators to approach the
Consulate-General as
close as 10 to 15 meters. Encouraged by this, fanatical demonstrators
attacked the car of the
Consulate-General which wasleaving the premises with their fist blows and
kicks. The Consular car
was able to drive away taking the risk of running over the demonstrators.
The staff of the Turkish
Consulate-General was later followed and threatened. It was observed that
Greek security
authorities remained obviously inactive during this period and did not
intervene to stop the
harassment.

- 15 August 1996

Information was received that a crowded demonstration would take place
infront of the Turkish
Consulate-General in Thessaloniki. However, due to increased security
measures taken infront of
the Consulate-General by Greek security authorities the demonstration did
not take place. It was
understood that an individual, who arrived at the Turkish Consulate at the
late hours of the night,
hung new placards inviting the people of Thessaloniki "to a demonstration,
that would be held infront
of Turkish Consulate on the evening of August 16 at 18:00 and again on the
17th of August at 11:00
in the morning."

- 16 August 1996

(i) Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace

At 2:30 am, a group of Greeks attacked five Turkish shops located in the
Sapçı district of Western
Thrace. As a result of the attacks, the windows of the drapery shop owned
by Mustafa Musa, the
game saloon belonging to Koşif, the furniture shop of Mustafa Nihat
Nurhan, (which is located 50
metres away from the Sapçi police station) and his car-upholstery repair
shop were smashed. The
windows of the furniture store owned by Nihat Nurhan was shattered by
gun-fire.

(ii) Threats Against The Turkish Consulate-General in Thessaloniki

Individuals calling the Thassaloniki Consulate around 12:30 threatened
"The killing of the two Greek
Cypriots in Cyprus would be avenged with the blood of the Consul General."
The Thessaloniki
security authorities were informed of these threats. Moreover, the need
for effective security
measures to be taken was voiced to the Macedonian-Thracian Ministry.

(iii) The Slowdown of Passage at the Ipsala Border Crossing

As a result of the slowdown by Greek Customs Authorities at the Kipi
border crossing at the
Turkish Ipsala frontier gate, which facilitates the overland transport
between Turkey and Europe, a
queue extending for five kilometers was formed by trucks on the Turkish
side. The Greek authorities
attempted to explain the delays in the crossing by the pretext that it was
due to a religious holiday.
The normal work at the border resumed after representations made to Greek
authorities.

(iv) The attack on the Turkish Consulate-General in Rhodes.

At 14:00 hours, the Turkish Consulate-General in Rhodeswas attacked by a
group of 200
demonstrators carrying placards and flags. As a result of the attack a
window was broken and
window shutters were damaged. In addition an unknown object wasthrown into
the garden
discharging a heavy smoke which engulfed the premises while demonstrators
forced a black coffin
into the garden of the Consulate-General. Meanwhile, another group which
detached itself from the
crowd entered the garden of the Consulate-General and tore down the coat
of arms. During the
demonstrations, it was observed that the mayor of the Municipality of
Rhodes, Genopolus was
watching the demonstration.

(v) The Attack against the Turkish Consulate-General in Komotini
(Gümülcine)

News regarding large scale demonstrations against Turkey was reported in
the local press. The
Morenia Archbishop of Komotini, Damaskinos, the instigator of the events
of 29th of January 1990,
this time agitated the local population by exploiting the events in
Cyprus. He also used the pretext
that the Hagia Sophia was being converted into a mosque by the Turkey. As
a result of these
instigations and the chiming of the church bells to summon the
demonstators, a crowd of
approximately 280 people (with the participation of certain manipulated
associations) gathered
around the Komotini Church at 18:30. At the same time, a group of
approximately 100
motorcyclists armed with iron clubs and chains and carrying Greek flags,
entered the Turkish
neighborhoods and began to riot. As a result of the attacks of this
motorcyclist group, 70 year old
Emine İncegizli and 60 year old Solitica Cansız were gravely injured and
hospitalized. The most of
people living in Turkish neighbourhoods of Komotini were severely beaten
with chairs and kicks
while official police vehicles following the Greek demonstrators looked on
and did not intervene.

Around 19:00 hours, the crowd which gathered at the church moved to the
Turkish
Consulate-General in Komotini and burnt a Turkish flag they had brought
along. Afterwards, some
demonstrators, due to the laxity of the police, climbed the fence
surrounding the Consulate-General
and attempted to bring down the Turkish flag. The attackers, initially
stopped by the Consulate
personnel, succeeded in the second attack by tearing down the Turkish flag
and burnting it . Around
20:00 hoursattackers moved once again towards the Consulate-General and
burnt down the newly
hoisted flag. The group then proceeded to force the rear gate of the
Consulate-General in an
attempt to enter the premises. When this failed, the group destroyed the
shops of the Turkish
minority located in the center of the town.

During the attack, the coat of arms of the Consulate-General was torn from
its place and damaged,
windows were smashed and cars belonging to the staff of the
Consulate-General inside the garden
were damaged. Furthermore, a petrol bomb was thrown into the garden. This,
however, did not
explode.

According to initial estimates, 45 shops belonging to members of the
Turkish minority were badly
damaged in the town centre.

The Turkish press was prohibited from filming these events and was
prevented from entering the
Turkish neighbourhoods.

- 17 August 1996

Following the religious sermon conducted at the Aghiou Dimitrou Church in
Thassalloniki, a group
of 150 to 200 people carrying Greek and Greek Cypriot flags, as well as
PKK banners, marched
towards the Turkish Consulate at 11:15 hours. Due to result of security
measures taken, the group
was not permitted to approach the Consulate-General. However, another
group of 10 to 15
people, including the church bishop, the former Minister of Interior and
PASOK member of the
parliament Papatheleris, and other members of parliament from
Thessaloniki, under the escort of the
police, arrived infront of the Consulate-General and left a declaration of
protest. After speeches and
the singing of the national anthem, the demonstrators dispersed at 13:00
hours. This showed that the
Greek police, could keep the attackers away at a safe distance when they
wish to do so.

- 18 August 1996

In the early hours of morning, the Turkish flag at the Turkish
Consulate-General in Komotini was
brought down and taken away by an unknown individual attacker, in the
presence of the Greek
police.

- 19-21 August 1996

The violent attacks against the members of the Turkish minority are still
continuing.

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

well, Alex. You were born and have grown up in US, and visited your
x-country almost 14 years ago, once in your life. As you told me
earlier, you are planning to visit both Greece and Turkey just after your
graduation. Well, it appears to me that you have so much clue on Turkey:-)
let me provide some info about the todays Greeks (let me repeat here, I am
gonna use the term 'today Greeks' to talk about your real ancesstors and
new generation to show that I have no intention to insult the ancient
Greeks.

here is the short course for you compiled from my and others postings:

1)
First one is from Elifina's posting. read carefully to know more abour
your ancesstors:

Fifteen thousand out of forty thousand
Moslem residents of the Peloponnesus were killed ("Greek Struggle for
Independence 1821-1833" , Douglas Dakin, p.59)

(well, proabably you know how to use Melvyl system, go and search for it)

2) Shamefull Incidents
"I saw with my own eyes the shamefull incidents. The Greeks burned doen
Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homesin the villages aroung
Famagusta. Defenless Turkish villagers, who have no weapons, live in an
atmosphere of terror created by Greek marauders, and they evacuate their
homes and go live in tents in the forests......."

source: France Soir- 7/24/1974

3) ... It is nonsense to claim, as the Greeks do, that all casualties were
caused by fighting between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many
Turkish people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban
homes, including wife and three small children of the Turkish head of army
medical services-allegedly by a group of forty men, many in army boots and
greatcoats.... (pictures will be scanned and displayed on the net soon)

source: Guardian - 12/31/1964

4)
The Turks in Famagusta Have all Been Massacred

.... the Greek Cypriots cruelly attacked the Turks. I do not think that
even one Turks has been left a live after this massacre. We were also told
that the Greeks had raided a hospital and killed every Turk there,
including eoman and children...

source: La Nouvelle Gazette - 7/26/74

5) A Real Massacre
When the PEACE OPEARTION started, the Greek Cypriots and Greek soldiers
in the island carried out massacres in areas which were not reached by the
Turkish military units. (90 Turkish cypriot villagers from the villages of
Tashkent, Mari, and Terazi and all the civilian inhabitants of the Turkish
Cypriot villages Atlilar, Murataga, and Sandallar were masaccres....

source: The Montreal Gazette 9/4/1974

6) .... Swedish Chief Inspector Lars Hakannson of the United Nations Peace
Keeping Force said: I am counting the heads. So far I have seen 72 and
there are more in the earth. There are at least 7 heads definetelt
identified as children....

source: The Montreal Gazette - 9/4/1974

7) SKILL in HORROR
... There is BARBARISM in Cyprus after all. Alamios village is a scene
where Greek Cypriots exhibited their skill in horror...
.... Alaminos village has already been in the news because a MASSACRE of
13 T/C was discovered 3 weeks ago. A UN investigation indicated that 13
were killed by a FIRING SQUAD.....

source: Associated Press - 8/13/1974

8) 'during the violent year of 1964, when the Greeks raised a conscript
army- the National Guard- to fight the Turks, and a military force of MORE
THAN 10,000 men was clandestinely sent from Greece to resist a possible
invasion from Turkey, there was little else that ordinary people could
think and talk about than the 'national cause'

source: The Cyprus Conflict, National Identity and Statehood
by ZENON STAVRINIDES. p.67)

(more examples from todays Greeks in the next message)

Hakan

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:
: I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to

: unify the nation towards a threat.
: For the Turks, they make the Kurds and Christians as a threat. The

: Turks have to remember that their ancestors are not Turks but the orginal
: inhabitiants of Anatolia. The Turks are nothing, but an American....all

: mixed into bowl. The difference is they don't uphold Civil liberties
: towards their minorities.

: Before the Turks came, Anatolia was orginally inhabited by christians.

: How can a huge Turkish population arise from this. Is it that people were

: converted to be Muslims and had to learn Turkish and eventually abandoned
: their native languages of Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Georgian, Kurdish,
: Arabic...etc.?

: Half of the people who say they are Turks in Turkey are really of
: Armenian, Greek, Slavic, Kurdish, Arabic, and other blood. However, their
: ancestors generations ago abandoned their true identity for fear of death.

: Please do the math for this because the Turks are the ones who invaded

: and came from the Mongol steppes with only yogurt to eat and meat.

: -To FREEDOM and TRUTH
:

--

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

some more info on pkk for Alex -the Greater Ignorant-

*******************************************************************

COMMENTS ON SEVERAL ARGUMENTS USED BY THE TERRORIST
ORGANIZATION PKK AGAINST TURKEY

The PKK argument: "In Turkey, there are two national communities, the
Turkish and the Kurdish
peoples."

The fact: The Turkish democracy is based on the concept of the
"nationalism of citizenship". The
point of the term "nationalism of citizenship" is that it is based on
individualism and does not reflect a
collectivist approach.

- To further elaborate, the term "Turkish people" includes all Turkish
citizens, whatever their ethnic
roots are, and it is an expression of their togetherness as equal
individuals. Therefore, ethnic roots of
the citizens is a special subject which is a concern for the citizens
themselves and not for the state.

- The PKK's aim today is to create a model of "ethnic nationalism" against
"nationalism of
citizenship" in Turkey. "Ethnic nationalism" is a collectivist and
authoritarian term in nature which
rejects to approach a person as an individual and which is not democratic.
It is based on "exclusion"
of those from different ethnic origins. Nevertheless, it is obvious that
ethnic peculiarities of a person
which come by birth are not sufficient to build an identity. Not only
national identity, but even a
collectivist ethnic identity cannot be created only on this basis.
"Identity" is a term which reflects the
personal understanding of an individual regarding his or her feeling of
belonging. The PKK is trying
to persuade those citizens of Turkey who are of Kurdish origin and the
State of Turkey, to accept
the "ethnic nationalism" approach and solutions based on this approach by
means of a terrorist
campaign.

- During the elections of 24th December 1995, a Party which defines itself
as a "Kurdish Party"
(HADEP) competed with other parties. The PKK labeled the elections as a
referendum which
would test its alternative nationalism model against the "nationalism of
citizenship". This approach
was openly declared in the MED TV and the "Özgür Politika" Newspaper which
are both the
propaganda organizations of the PKK. The result was that HADEP could only
receive 1/7th of the
votes of all Kurdish origin citizens of Turkey. 6/7 of the citizens of
Kurdish origin voted for other
parties.

This proves that the citizens of Kurdish origin in Turkey reject ethnic
nationalism. This is only
natural. "Nationalism of citizenship" gives the citizens a supra-ethnic
identity and at the same time,
does not reject the ethnic identities of individuals. Nevertheless,
"ethnic nationalism" is based on the
exclusion of other ethnicities. It does not give the individual the
opportunity of "cohabitation" and
sharing a common faith. The results of the elections indicate that the
majority of the Turkish citizens
of Kurdish origin see their future in living together on an equal basis
with all other Turkish citizens.

The PKK argument: "PKK is the representative of the Kurdish people and
talks on behalf of the
Kurdish people".

The fact: - It is crystal clear that the real representatives of the
citizens that are of Kurdish origin in
Turkey are the parliamentarians elected by their votes on 24th December
1995. Among them are
many parliamentarians of Kurdish origin. This proves that the PKK or the
co-called "Kurdish
Parliament in Exile" have no right to speak on behalf of the citizens of
Kurdish origin in Turkey.

- Such acts which are not based on people's will are anti-democratic. The
natural conclusion of this
fact is that those who accept the PKK or the co-called "Kurdish Parliament
in Exile" as
"representatives of the Kurdish people" also adopt an anti-democratic
stand. The elections which
took place on 24th December 1995 proved that neither the PKK nor the
co-called "Kurdish
Parliament in Exile" has legitimacy.

The PKK argument: "Turkey rejects the identity of the Kurdish people.
Turkey does not allow the
Kurdish people to become involved in politics."

The fact: - Those who have the right to convey the requests or complaints
of the Turkish citizens of
Kurdish origin in Turkey are parliamentarians elected on 24th December
1995 from the regions
where those people live. Thus, when the elected parliamentarians are
there, other institutions, even if
they have not been involved in terrorist activities, cannot be accepted as
parties to a dialogue. We
believe that no one has the right to communicate such a request which
means disrespect for the very
basic principles of representative democracy. Furthermore, no grounds can
justify involvement in a
dialogue with a terrorist organization.

These facts prove that, contrary to allegations of the PKK, the Kurdish
identity in Turkey is not
being rejected. What the constitutional order in Turkey rejects is the
approach of "collective
identities" and the allegation that there is a separate "Kurdish people"
in Turkey apart from the
"Turkish people"; an approach based on "ethnic nationalism". Recent
elections proved that these
biased approaches were also rejected by the Turkish citizens of Kurdish
origin. Apart from this, no
one in Turkey is punished or ostracized when they label themselves as
Kurds or when they speak
Kurdish.

The allegations that the Kurdish people are not free to be involved in
politics is a distortion of the
truth. Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin in Turkey, like all other
Turkish citizens, have been using the
right to vote and to be elected freely. In addition to this, a party which
labels itself as "the
representative of the Kurdish people" competed in elections on 24th
December 1995 but could
receive only a minor percentage of the votes from those citizens of
Kurdish origin.

The PKK argument: "There is a war going on between the Government of the
Republic of Turkey
and the PKK. The PKK has declared a unilateral cease-fire. To end the war,
the other side should
also declare a cease-fire and both parties should start negotiations. To
this end, the international
community should exert pressure on Turkey."

The fact: The PKK has been trying to present its terrorist actions and the
fight of the Turkish
security forces against these actions, as "clashes between two warring
parties". In doing this, the aim
of the terrorist organization is to make the international community
believe that events taking place in
southeastern Turkey fall in the category of "armed conflict" or "civil
war" in line with the 1949
Geneva Conventions and its additional protocols. Thus, the terrorist
organization aims to gain in a
legal status based on such allegations.

Under the Geneva Conventions, the events taking place mainly in the
southeastern parts of Turkey
cannot be evaluated in the way the PKK intends.

Because:

- PKK is a terrorist organization which has killed 4700 civilians. It does
not respect any "rules of
war". Several non-governmental organizations have emphasized in their
reports that PKK's signing
several documents on how "it will respect the Geneva Conventions" does not
change this reality.
The declaration of the so-called "cease fire" by the terrorist
organization also does not change this
fact. The words by the leader of the PKK which had been broadcast in the
MED TV (pointing that
"he will turn Turkey into hell" or "he declares cease-fires before massive
attacks") show his real
intentions.

- Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions is in fact on civil war and not on
other forms of conflict. The
minutes of the negotiations on this Article clearly prove this fact.

- According to Protocol No. 2 which is in a way the enlarged version of
Article 3, a necessary
condition to speak of civil war is that an armed group should have the
continuous control of a
certain territory of a country and possess the ability to operate from
this particular region. This is not
the fact in the southeastern part of Turkey.

- The PKK resorts to violence in all parts of Turkey, though the majority
of its operations are
directed against citizens of Kurdish origin in the southeast. However
there have also been attacks by
it in metropolitan areas and tourist resorts. In the latter case, the PKK
was targeting foreign
holiday-makers. It has also staged operations in Western European
countries. How can these
events possibly be regarded as constituting a "civil war" or indeed an
"armed conflict" since it is
spread over such an area and directed at innocent people.

- The leader of the PKK resides in Syria. The training camps and bases of
the terrorist organization
are also in Syria or else on Lebanese territory under Syrian control as
well as latterly in some
regions of northern Iraq. These are the "safe havens" of the PKK and the
terrorist organization
operates mainly from these regions. In essence, the PKK attacks
originating in Syria constitute
"indirect aggression" or "armed intervention" against the territorial
integrity and political
independence of Turkey under Article 2(4) of the UN Charter."

Alexandros Aliferis (ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
:

[Adil]

On 22 Sep 1997, Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:

#Alex, Dost:-)
# You have no clue on what pkk is... It is a separatist terrorist
#organization which has support only from Greece, Syria, Russia.

Actually, Armenia is also involved, as all the Russian weapons had to pass
through Armenia. Some news reports also suggest Armenia providing training
and refuge to PKK.

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

In article <342551E9...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,

Sayin Hanife hanim, Oncelikle belirtiyim bende baba tarafimdan dolayi
Kurt kani tasimakta olan bir Turkum. Nekadar ne kani tasidigim bana gore
hicde onemli degil, sonucda bizlerde Turkiye halkinin bir parcasi ve ayni
ulkun insanlariyiz. Sizin sempati duydugunuz PKK orgutu ise tamamiyle
tartismasiz teror orgutudur. Onlara Kurt diyerek Kurdun itibarini
zedeliyorsunuz. Turke dusman cikarsa, arkasindan milliyetcisi cogalir,
fasistide olur. Ataturke dusman cikarsa, yine arkasindan gozu Ataturkden
baskasini gormeyen fanatikler dogar. Bunlar kacinilmazdir. Fakat bu
durumda yapilmasi gereken, her yanlisa yanlis demek, herkeze esitlik
saglamaktir. Turkiye bu zeminleri insanlarina saglayamiyorsa, bunun
acisini hepberaber cekmekdeyiz. Hakkini alamiyorsan haksizlik yapmak
zorunda, siddete ve terore basvurmak zorunda degilsindir, eger tersi
olsa, bizlerde aynisini yapariz, ve itibardan cok daha onemli
degerlerimizi kaybeder gideriz.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Erhan]

On Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:57:15 -0400, hanife
<han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:

Hanife hanim,

Tartismak iyi birsey. Ama bazen tartismalar bir SIKAYETe donusuyor
(bakiniz bu yazinizi hangi haber gruplarina postalamissiniz).

Ben bunun SIZE ve BIZE ne hayiri olacagini merak ediyorum.
Sonunda bu isi cozecek Kurt ve Turk'dur.

Ustelik bir cok yazilarda bir genellestirme yapiliyor, Turkler veya
'the Turks' diye bahs ediliyor. Bu sistemi ayakta tutan Turk'ler

degildir, yuradi 'kaymak yiyenler' diye adlandirdiginiz kisilerdir.

Bunlarin arasinda Kurt'ler de olmali. Sizin kadar olmasada Turk'lerde
bu sistemdem zarar goruyor (gunde 14 saat calisip evdeki cocuklarinin
karnini doyuramamak).

Bakin, ben bu konularda uzman degilim. Tarih'i fazla bilmem, ama
bugunu bilirim. Ve duruma birseyler yapilmasi gerekilmesi oldugunu
goruyorum. Herkes elinden geldigini yapmasini isterim. Etrafimda KURT
kelimesi bir TABUdur ama yinede bol kullanirim ve inanirmisiz bu kucuk
bir seyin bile faydasi oldu ! Kurt'lere kotu bakan ve kotu konusan
ESAS BOLUCU ve TERORISTIR diye epey zamandir soyledim cevremde, bunun
etkisi oldu inanin !

Ben KURT'un gercek yuzunu gormek istiyorum! Bize Kurt'leri tanitin,
PKK'yi degil.

Hepimiz biliriz Kurt'lerin sesi guzeldir (hani derler ya, Urfa'da
katir agirsa bile dinlelinir) ve bir cok sanatci Kurt'tur. Bence bunu

saklamalari lazim.

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

>And what about the actual numbers? How many muslims were then how many now?
>What happened to the Greek minority of Constantinople which is mentioned in the very same treaty?

well, put your numbers here first.
secondly, you should note that history in the Anatolia does not start with Greek period, you shold note
that there were other civilization before the Greek that were assimilated and/or wiped out by the Greeks
totally. Do you think that they were all ortodox christans before the Greek period? what about the ortodox
christian numbers before and after the Greek period in Anatolia? These are the historical facts. You
converted, we converted and others converted too. We should admit this fact. I never denied this fact.
But Turks were more tolerant about that. Thats why you guys can still keep your culture and religion
although your mainland was ruled by Islam-leading Ottoman Empires for more than 600 years. While you
knocked down most of the mosques and historical monuments in Cyprus and in your mainland (ask Alexandras
Aliferis for more detail, or if you want I forward his e-mail to my personal account on this topic)
you have still Ortodox Church in Istanbul for years.
Some of those Greek minority fled back to Greece voluntarily just after their armies kicked out from
Anatolia, and the rest was sent back to Greece afterwards. In meantime, Turks from islands in Aegean sea
and the Western Thrace were also deported from Greece to Turkey. You should see the both sides of the
coin. By the way, those who left Istanbul can live there freely with their own calture and language, just
one famous example is Fedon (a pop-singer). He is still cracking dishes when he sings, and can tell his
identity everywhere freely.

>You dare to talk?


Yeap, how about you, instead of lurking here and sending a message directly my personal account, why dont
you contibute to this discussion here. Nothing to scare, man. I personally believe that we are not the
angel on the earth, but you are not either. Your folk tried spawing his hatred feelings against the Turks
here, and I believe that he MUST see also the other side of the coin. Is it really hard to understand
that?

>I know it doesn't sound nice but I would like to do to you only what your kind has done to the Greeks
>of Asia Minor, nothing more nothing less.

As I said above, we are pretty kind to the Greeks in Asian Minor, much more than you do for the Turks
in Western Thrace. Please go over the 10th thread (I guess) to see what I mean.

>Alex

>PS try soc.culture.genoside it suits you and your equals better...

Send your suggestion to your folks' my dear, I am not the person who came up with flame post, and not the
provocator, I am just following up his postings, and reply to his pointless claims. Havent you realized
it? now go back and read the first message now, who came with pointless claim without a single referance?

>(I refer to your equals only not to all the Turks, I am not like you...)

my equals? I wish you were more specific about that. You mean the person who can come up with some real
evidences? or telling the truth and hurt you guys!
talk to Alex from UC Davis about who I am. I joined the Greek night in Sacramento, I joined the Greek Food
Festival in Sacramento and danced with Greeks (with Alex too) with your music at the background. I am not
smearing all Greeks here as I pointed out earlier. I met a coouple of ver nice and kind Greeks here on
campus, but the rest they are thrash. Ask Alex what the percentage of the Greeks not to see any Turks
including me in the Greek nights? We, as a Turkish Assosiation in Davis, invited Greeks to eat a pizza to
know each other and get rid of all anomosities among us. In our association, all of us
(no exception) supported this idea. I talked about that with Alex. But it was failed. Ask Alex (Aliferis)
for more detail, ask him why this plan failed. Ask Alex what percentage of the people in his association
not dislike but HATES the Turk, Turkish Students. Ask Alex who said "We Greeks have no respect for Turk"
on phone. Ask him did he hear anything like that from any Turkish student in the Davis campus? any single
example he can put here?.. NO... definately NO. ]
Yes you are not like me. Because you are not straight. But, ask Alex, who you are. He said all the Greeks
are politic, dont thrust their words. He told those words when he suffered from new members in his
association. I dont have any intention to plant any hatred feeling between Greeks and Turks, but I must
put the facts here who would like to masturbate here in SCT by infesting our discussion groups. anything
you dont agree on, put your own referance and deny the my points.if you look at my postings, I have no
vlaims, but just referances. relaity that can be verified by checking all those referances. It should not
make you sad/angry. Is it clear enaouh?

(I am not releasing your e-mail address here, but next time lets continue our discussion here, or I will
forward your next replies with your e-mailaddress here)

Hakan

[RACER]

Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...

>
> >
> >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
> >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
> >
> >******************************************************************
> >
> >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
> >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
> >
> >

> There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
>
> >

> Agamemnon

GREECE TO IMPRISON ANOTHER RELIGIOUS
LEADER OF THE TURKISH MINORITY OF WESTERN
THRACE

Washington, May 19, 1995 -- For the second time, Greeceis about to
imprison a
religious leader of the Turkish minorityin Western Thrace, contrary to
its bilateral and
multilateralcontractual obligations; the first being Mehmet Emin Aga,
Muftiof Xhanti,
who was convicted in January 1995 and is still servingout his sentence.

Similarly elected by the Turkish minority in full accordance
withprovisions of the Treaty
of Lausanne of 1923 and the Athens Agreementof 1913, Mr. Ibrahim Sherif,
Mufti of
Komotini, was sentencedby the Greek Court of First Instance in December
1994 to
eightmonths imprisonment pending his appeal which is scheduled to beheld
on May 24.

As Greek authorities have recently intensified their repressivepolicies
and threats
against the Turkish minority, Turkey is appealingto human rights
organizations to send
monitors to Mr. Sherif'supcoming appeals trial so that he will not face
the same fateas
Mr. Aga.

It is hoped that Greece, a European Union member, will honor
itsbilateral and
international commitments to religious freedom andput an end to
persecution of duly
elected religious leaders ofthe Turkish minority in Western Thrace.

[Agamemnon]

Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...

>

>some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
>(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
>
>******************************************************************
>
>Example for human rights in Greece!!!
>Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
>
>

There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.

>

>- 12 August 1996
>
>The exterior wall facing the street of Atatürk's house, in the grounds
of
>the Turkish Thessalonaki
>Consulate-General was spray-painted in red with a slogan reading
>"F...Turkey". In response to
>official Turkish representations the grafitti was erased by the Greek
>police on the same day.

The Street of Atatuks house.

Pitty that it was the Turks that Burnt Down the House of their founder
in 1955

Now you have only yourselfs to blame.

Agamemnon

[Agamemnon]

Erol Keskin wrote in article <3425E033...@cmq.com>...

>
> Beans, beans, beans, the magical fruit

Beans are PULSES not fruit.

That shows Turkish intelligence for you

Agamemnon

[RACER]

Agamemnon wrote:
>
> Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>
> >

> >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
> >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
> >
> >******************************************************************
> >
> >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
> >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
> >
> >

> There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
>

> Agamemnon

LOL YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY. ENJOY MF!

PRESS RELEASE

12 June 1996

TOPIC: STRIPPING MINORITY GREEK CITIZENS OF
THEIR CITIZENSHIP. THE RAMADANOGLOU
FAMILY CASE.

Two Greek citizens -Mr. Hussein Ramadanoglou and his wife, Mrs.
Aisse-Gul
Fetaoglou, are the latest victims of the notorious Article 19 of the
Code for Greek
Nationality.

This article provides for the administrative measure of deprivation of
citizenship on the
grounds of "having left the country with no intention to return" It is
in the discretion of the
Ministry of Domestic Affairs to interpret the "intention" of
individuals, and this discretion
has been consistently used against Greek citizens, members of the Muslim
minority of
Thrace, North-Eastern Greece, composed of ethnic Turks, Pomaks and Roma.

The case of the Ramadanoglou is notable both for its timing -in a period
when the new
Greek government is publicly committing itself to improve the conditions
and respect
the rights of the Muslim minority- and for the blatantly senseless
application of the
above mentioned Article 19.

Indeed, the Ramadanoglou, of the Xanthi region in Thrace, in their
petition to the
minister of Domestic Affairs of May 14, 1996, present ample evidence to
sustain their
claim that they are Greek and have every intention to live work and
raise their children in
this country.

Mr. and Mrs. Ramadanoglou, together with their new-born daughter Pelin
went to
Frankfurt, Germany, in 1990, where Mr. H. Ramadanoglou got himself a
job. Their son,
Yussuf, was born there in 1992.

Mr. H. Ramadanoglou has twice renewed his passport at the Greek
consulate in
Frankfurt and was holding a valid passport with date of expiration April
17, 1996. Mrs.
Ramadanoglou likewise renewed her passport once in Frankfurt and is
holder of one
valid till May 4, 1999, while their daughter has a passport valid till
March 14, 1998. Their
son, whose birth has been registered with the Frankfurt Greek Consulate,
has a
passport also valid till March 14, 1998.

Moreover, Mr. H. Ramadanoglou holds a social security card in Greece,
valid till
December 31, 1996, while his wife passed a test in Greece for having
license in
December 1995. Finally, since September 1996 their daughter is attending
school in
Xanthi, not living in Germany any more.

The Ramadanoglou family have been visiting Greece almost every year,
where their
parents live permanently, and have also brought or sent sums of money
repeatedly.

Last April they came to Greece again. Since the passport of Mr.
Ramadanoglou was
due for renewal, he cared to obtain a new one, this time from the
relevant Greek
authorities in Xanthi.

Thus, holding legal documents in perfect order considering themselves as
genuine
Greeks, having relatives and property in Greece, the two Ramadanoglou
and their
daughter had absolutely no reason to believe that trouble was
forthcoming, when they
decided to visit an uncle in Turkey.

On the way back, they were told that their citizenship had been taken
away already
since November 1992, under Article 19. Notably, their son who did not
accompany
them to Turkey retains his citizenship!

Mr. H.Ramadanoglou managed to unearth a document, dating November 1991,
which
claims that he never renewed his passport since 1991- a claim which is
manifestly
untrue.

It is a clear case of administrative measures with no discernible
connection with any
sense of law, taken in the context of discriminatory attitudes against
minorities
members. As such, they must be immediately stopped. The passports of the
Ramadanoglou family must be returned, and article 19 must be repealed.

Panayote Elias DimitrasSpokesperson
Greek Helsinki Monitor & Minority Rights Group - Greece
P.O. Box 51393
GR-14510 Kifisia Greece
tel. +30-1-620.01.20
fax: +30-1-807.57.67

[George Soumakis]

RACER wrote:
>
> Agamemnon wrote:
> >
> > Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> >

At least there is a muslim minority to speak of... What happen to the
Greek and Christian minorities in turkey???? They have lost all their
lands in Turkey and all their lands (ie. imbros) and 1955 in
Konstantinople.

George

> > >
> > >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
> > >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
> > >
> > >******************************************************************
> > >
> > >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
> > >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
> > >
> > >

[Erol Keskin]

Agamemnon wrote:

Everything is relative when you have fun.

Besides, *I* did not author the lines. It is a well known
children's rhyme. But then again, a fruit like yourself
(probably never been a child in his whole life) has to find
something wrong in everything that won't match his propaganda
limits.

What a shame yau are --for the humanity.

Erol

[RACER]

Agamemnon wrote:

> There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
>

Here from Britannica for your thick empty rascist head:

Thrace: Brief Historical Background

Thrace, Thráki (Greek), Thracia (Latin) Trakya (Turkish) is the
South-eastern region of
Balkans. Boundaries of historical Thrace have varied, extending from
Danube River to
the north of the Aegean Sea to the South. The Roman province of Thrace,
smaller than
the historical Thrace, bounded on the north by the Balkan Mountains,
extended up to the
west only to the Néstos River. Modern Greek Thrace is bounded by the
Néstos River to
the west, the Rodopi Mountains to the north, and the Maritsa River to
the east and
corresponds to the southern part of Bulgaria, the Greek province of
Thrace.

Ancient Greek and Roman historians agreed that the Thracians, who were
of Indo
European stock and language, were superior fighters; only their constant
political
fragmentation prevented their overrunning the lands around the
north-eastern
Mediterranean. Although these historians characterised the Thracian
tribes as primitive
partly because they lived in simple, open villages, the Thracians in
fact had a fairly
advanced culture that was especially noted for its poetry and music.
Their soldiers were
valued as mercenaries, particularly by the Macedonians and Romans.

Most Thracians became subject to Persia in about 516-510 BC. Members of
the
Odrysae tribe briefly unified their fellow Thracians into an empire that
in 360 BC split
three ways and was quite easily assimilated (356-342) by Philip II of
Macedon. The
Thracians provided Philip's son, Alexander the Great, with valuable
light-armed troops
during his conquests. In 197, Rome assigned much of Thrace to the
kingdom of
Pergamum, though the coastal area west of the Maritsa was annexed to the
Roman
province of Macedonia. In the 1st century BC, Rome became more directly
involved in
the affairs of the whole region, and dynastic quarrels among the local
Thracian rulers,
who had by then become client kings of Rome, prompted the emperor
Claudius I to
annex the entire Thracian kingdom in AD 46. Thrace was subsequently made
into a
Roman province. The emperor Trajan and his successor, Hadrian, founded
cities in
Thrace, notably Sardica (modern Sofia) and Hadrianopolis (modern
Edirne). In about
AD 300, Diocletian reorganised the area between the Lower Danube and the
Aegean
into the diocese of Thrace.

From the 3rd to the 7th century the population of Thrace was altered
greatly by repeated
Gothic, Visigothic, and Slavic invasions and immigrations. In the 7th
century the
Bulgarian state was founded, and Byzantium consequently lost all Thrace
north of the
Balkan Mountains to the Bulgarians. Racked by Byzantine civil wars in
the 14th century,
Thrace fell piece by piece, up to 1453, to the Ottoman Turks, who ruled
it for four
centuries thereafter. Russian encroachments in the eastern Balkans
culminated in the
Russo-Turkish Wars (1828-29 and 1877-78), but Russia failed to create a
"Greater
Bulgaria" that would include the northern portions of Thrace at the
expense of Turkey.
The whole of Thrace therefore remained under Turkish domination. During
the Balkan
Wars (1912-13) Thrace suffered terribly. After World War I the
boundaries of Greece,
Bulgaria, and Turkey in Thrace were established by the treaties of
Neuilly (1919),
Sèvres (1920), and Lausanne (1923), and after World War II they remained
unchanged.

As a result of wars and both forced and voluntary population migrations,
the ethnic
character of Thrace has become more homogeneous during the 20th century,
although
there are still large Turkish minorities in both Greek and Bulgarian
Thrace. The Turks in
Greek (Western) Thrace were excluded from the Greek-Turkish population
exchange of
1923, while many of the resettled Greeks from Anatolia were settled in
Western Thrace.
A relatively small number of Turks from Bulgaria were resettled in
Eastern Thrace. The
Muslim population was exempted from repatriation to Turkey by the Treaty
of Lausanne
in 1923, but many emigrated after the appropriation of their land in
1924 and
subsequently continued to emigrate because of deteriorating relations
between Greece
and Turkey.

The Greek population of Thrace has grown rapidly since 1923 and is now
the dominant
population group, generally enjoying a higher standard of living than
the Muslim
minority. Greek is gradually supplanting Turkish as the language of
instruction even in
Muslim schools. Tensions between Greeks and the remaining Muslims have
led to
occasional outbursts of intercommunal violence. Most Thracian Muslims
are of Turkish
ancestry and speak Turkish. The Pomak people, a Turkicized Muslim group
speaking a
Bulgarian dialect, are concentrated along the border with Bulgaria.
There is also a
small group of sedentary Gypsies who speak Romany and Turkish.

High-quality Turkish tobacco, cultivated primarily by Muslims, is the
chief cash crop of
the region. Corn (maize) and rice are grown on the lowlands of the Evros
River and the
plains of western Thrace. Vineyards are found around Alexandroúpolis,
where wine is
produced. Oyster farming around Keramotí and eel fishing at Komotiní
provide exports
to central Europe. The manufacturing industries of Thrace consist
chiefly of the
processing of agricultural crops, tobacco curing, and wine production.

Archaeological sites, including Abdera, home of Democritus, the
5th-century
philosopher who developed an atomic particle theory, and of Protagoras,
a counselor
of Alexander the Great, and the course of the Roman highway called the
Via Egnatia
attract tourists. Komotiní has a large museum with objects from
throughout Thrace.
Komotiní also is the site of Democritus University (1973) and of a
Muslim secondary
college.

Source: "Thrace", Britannica CD. Version 97. Encyclopaedia Britannica,
Inc., 1997.

[hanife]

do...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

> Sayin Hanife hanim, Oncelikle belirtiyim bende baba tarafimdan dolayi
> Kurt kani tasimakta olan bir Turkum. Nekadar ne kani tasidigim bana
> gore
> hicde onemli degil, sonucda bizlerde Turkiye halkinin bir parcasi ve
> ayni

> ulkun insanlariyiz. Turke dusman cikarsa, arkasindan milliyetcisi

> cogalir,
> fasistide olur. Ataturke dusman cikarsa, yine arkasindan gozu
> Ataturkden
> baskasini gormeyen fanatikler dogar. Bunlar kacinilmazdir. Fakat bu
> durumda yapilmasi gereken, her yanlisa yanlis demek, herkeze esitlik
> saglamaktir. Turkiye bu zeminleri insanlarina saglayamiyorsa, bunun
> acisini hepberaber cekmekdeyiz. Hakkini alamiyorsan haksizlik yapmak
> zorunda, siddete ve terore basvurmak zorunda degilsindir, eger tersi
> olsa, bizlerde aynisini yapariz, ve itibardan cok daha onemli
> degerlerimizi kaybeder gideriz.
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
> ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Sayin X,
Adinizi bilmedigim icin boyle hitap ediyorum kusura kalmayin. Cok dogru
soylemissiniz. Kimin ne kani tasidigi onemli degil. Bence de insanin
insan yapan degerler arasinda 'kanin' hic bir onemi yok. En azinda
bilimsel olarak 'kanin asil' oldugu ispatlanmis degil. O yuzden de
kanimla degil kendi kisisel ozelliklerimle ovunmeyi severim. Dogrusu
"Turklere dusman cikarsa, arkasindan milliyetcisi cogalir" sozunuz
ilgimi cekti. Bunun Ataturk milliyetciligi ile alakasi oldugu inancinda
degilim.. Aslinda bu benim degil 'sosyolog'larin gozlemi. Ataturk
biliyorsunuz Turkiye'yi batiyla 'entegre' etme konusunda inanilmaz bir
istek icindeydi. Hatta bir cok kisi bunun 'saplanti' derecesinde
oldugunu soyler. Ataturk'un zamaninda biliyorsunuz Avrupa'da 'fasizm'
ruzgarlari esiyor ve tum Avrupa'yi etkiliyordu. Ataturk Avrupa'ya
onlardan biri oldugunu gostermek icin Turkiye'de fasizm ruzgarlarini
estirdi. Tabii uzagi goremedigi icin bugun oldugu gibi 'fasizm'in
insanlik sucu kabul edilecegini bilemedi. Hayatta olsaydi onunda
'fasizm'den inanilmaz bir donus yapacagindan hic kuskum yok. Yani
Turkiye'de irkciligin biz Kurt'ler le veya baska dusmanlarla alakasi
yok. Ataturk tarafindan uydurma tezlerle suni olarak yaratilmis
herkesinde baliklama ustune atlamis oldugu bir sey irkcilik Turkiye'de.
Tam tersine bu irkcilik yuzunden ona uygun olsun diye "dusmanlar'
yaratilmistir. Sonunda da is cigirindan cikmis ve Turk olmayan her unsur
dusman kabul edilmistir. Yani kisaca fasizm dusmanlar sonucunda ortaya
cikmamis tam tersine fasizm sonucunda dusmanlar yaratilmistir.

"Sizin sempati duydugunuz PKK orgutu ise tamamiyle
tartismasiz teror orgutudur. Onlara Kurt diyerek Kurdun itibarini
zedeliyorsunuz. "

Dogrusu bu biraz agir bir soz. Bunu soylemeden once gercekten bu konuda
okumanizi ve Turkiye devletinin etkisinden kurtularak bu karara
kendinizin karar vermenizi isterdim. Bugun bir cok uluslararsi yayin
organlarinin "Kurt Oldurme Tarlalari" diye basliklarla, TC'devletinin
Kurtlere yaptigini anlatan yazilar yazarken sizin halen PKK'nin
yaptiklarini gormeniz ve TC'nin kileri ise gormemeye calismaniz cok
uzucu. Sayin X, eger PKK'nin sivilleri oldurmesi sizde onu teror orgutu
diye nitelendirmenize neden oluyorsa, bu tanima TC'yi de katmak
zorundasiniz. Ustelik TC sivilleri devlet olarak korumayi vadetmesine,
kanunlari ile bunu yapmasi gerekmesine ragmen oldurmekte. Ustelik devlet
olarak onun elindeki guc (ordusu, haber alma teskilati, polileri, gizli
polisleri, kotragerillalari) PKK'nin elindekinden kat kat fazla oldugu
icin onun yaptigi sivilleri oldurme islemi cok daha planli, cok daha
bilinclidir. Bu bakimdan ele alinirsa olay TC, PKK'dan daha fazla
teroristir. TC'nin kullandigi bir guc daha vardirki iste o en acisidir.
TC kanun yapma yetkileri ile, cikarttigi antidemokratik kanunlarla
yaptigi teroru 'legal' gosterebiliyor. Ne yapalim PKK'nin elinde oyle
bir guc olmadigi icin onun yaptiklari 'illegal' olarak kalmak durumunda
su anda. Bugun olen sivil sayisi inanilmazdir, ve butun kaynaklarca
bilindigi gibi 'devlet' tarafindan oldurulen sivillerin sayisi onlarca
kat daha fazladir PKK'nin oldurduklerine gore. Bunu neden mi yapiyor TC
. Cok duydugunuz bir soz bunun cevabi. Hani hep duyarsiniz 'halk ile
PKK'yi ayirt edemiyoruz'. Ama yanlislikla oldurduklerini sanmayin tam
tersine, halka dostsa dostlugunu, dusmansa dusmanligini gostermesi icin
baski yapilmistir. Cunku onlara gore halki PKK'dan ayirmanin en kolay
yolu: eger koylu 'koy korucusu' olursa PKK'li olmadigini gostermis
olacakti. Yani TC butun uluslarasarasi kanunlari hice sayarak silahli
bir mucadelede korumasi gereken halki tam tersine ileri surmustur. Eski
bir turk sozu olan "Kurd'u Kurd'e kirdirmak" sozu hayat bulmustur TC'nin
politikasinda. Bu silahli savasta taraf tutmak istemeyen binlerce iinsan
'PKK sempatizani' olarak oldurulmustur devlet tarafindan. Hemde haince,
iskenceler altinda, kaybolmalarla yok edilmistir bu insanlar .Halbuki
bugun uluslarasi kanunlara gore devlet vatandaslarini sahip oldugu
silahli bir mucadele taraf almaya zorlayamaz hatta tam tersine
vatandslarinin yasamlarini korumakla gorevlidir. Iste yine ayni
uluslarasi kanunlara gore boyle bir devlet karsisinda 'halkin' kendisini
silaha sarilarak korumaya calismasi 'legal'dir. Devletin bu baskilari
sonucunda ' o karasiz' kisiler, nasilsa oldurulecekler hic degilse
savasarak olmeyi ve kendilerinin en dogal haklari olan savunma haklarini
kullanmak icin PKK'ya katilmislardir. O yuzden de TC devletinin halka
uyguladigi terorun PKK'nin basarisinda katkisi cok olmustur. PKK bile
her iki yilda bir sayisini iki katina cikarmayi hayal edemiyordu
herhalde. Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
yerlerinden edilmistir. Koyleri yakili yikilmistir. Cunku koy korucusu
olmak istememislerdir. Butun bunlar bu kadar acikken sizin 'tanimlari'
sadece PKK'ya karsi kullanmaniz haksizlik olmuyor mu? O tanimlar
kendiliginden genisler (siz isteseniz de istemeseniz de) ve TC'yi de
icine alir ve 'terror devleti' damgasini hakederek verir. Dogrusu sizin
en azindan Kurt halkinin cektigi zalimlige, haksizliga bir Turk'den daha
duyarli olmanizi beklerdim.

Sayin X, PKK'yi desteklersiniz veya desteklemezsiniz. O onemli degil.
PKK politik bir orguttur. Her orgut gibi onun da gunahlari, sevaplari
vardir. Ama Kurt halkinin cektiklerini, ugradigi haksizligi PKK'dan
bagimsiz dusunmek zorundasiniz. PKK'yi desteklemiyorum diye eger TC'nin
Kurt halkina yaptiklarini destekler konumuna girerseniz, Kurt halkina
karsi haksizlik etmis olursunuz. PKK benim siyasi tercihim olmustur. O
benim kisisel tercihimdir. Ama Kurt halkina yapilanlar haksizliklar,
zalimlikler, zulum bir gercektir. Bunun tek sorumlusu da Kurd'u Kurd'e
kirdirarak cikar uman TC'dir.

Eger sizin yukarida bahsettiginiz 'itibar' sozu TC' icin kullanilmissa
kusura kalmayin TC o itibari zaten coktan kaybetmistir. gerci daha
onceden itibari var miydi o da ayri bir tartisma konusudur.

Hanife

[han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu]

In article <34272db0...@newsserv2.caiw.nl>,

an...@anon.com (Erhan) wrote:
>
> Hanife hanim,
>
> Tartismak iyi birsey. Ama bazen tartismalar bir SIKAYETe donusuyor
> (bakiniz bu yazinizi hangi haber gruplarina postalamissiniz).

Erhan Bey,

ona sikayet demiyelim isterseniz, geliniz ona insanlara bir konu hakkinda
bilgi vermek diyelim. Diger gruplara gonderdim ki insanlar okuyabilsin.
Sahsen ben pek zaman bulamiyorum diger newsgroup'lara bakmaya. O yuzden
benim bir yaziyi okumami isteyen kiside o yaziyi kurdish ve turkish
newsproup;larina gondermeli. O yuzden oralara gonderdim. Dedigim gibi
sadece bilgi verme amacimdi. Keske oyle 'bu durumu' degisterebilecek
birilerini bulsamda yakasina yapisip sikayetlerimi dile getirebilsem.
Kimbilir belki ise yarardi.

Ben bunun SIZE ve BIZE ne hayiri olacagini merak ediyorum.
> Sonunda bu isi cozecek Kurt ve Turk'dur.

Turkiye bir cok Kurt aydininin, insaninin yurt disina kacmasina neden
oldu. Kacmasalardi onlar bugun zaten ya hapis de olacaklardi ya da
mezarda. Iste o insanlar yurtdisinda diger kisilere gercekleri
anlattilar. Kurt sesi, Turkiye'de dinleyici ve sesini duyurayacak
kosullar bulamadi ama yurt disinda buldu. Turkiye'nin kovaladigi Kurt
sesi, oyle bir gur ses olusturdu ki Turkiye'yi rahatsiz etmeye basladi.
Erhan Bey, dunya artik oylesine farkli bir konumda ki oyle Turkiye'nin
kendi kafasina gore takilmasi mumkun degildir. Turkiye'de kimse
Amerika'nin izni olmadan hapsiramaz bile. O zaman da yurt disindaki
insanlarin bilgilenmesinin onemi aciga cikar.

Sonra Erhan Bey bu gruptaki Turk'lere soylesem ne ifade eder? Bir kere
cok az kisi gercegi gogusleyebilecek duzeyde cesur. Ikincisi hani derler
ya 'kelin ilaci olsa kendi basina surermis'. Onlar zaten ne yapabiliyorki
acinacak hallerine? Yillardir gelen Turkiye'yi yiyor, giden yiyor.
Onlarin hepside birer seyirci. Arada bir kendi aralarinda elestiriyorlar
durumu, o zaman da zaten askeriye gelip 'hot' diyor onlara. Onlarin da
sesi solugu kesiliyor. Onlarin kendine hayri yok zaten, Kurt halkina
nasil olsun? Ne diyelim Kurt halkinin kurtulusu, Turk halkininda
kurtulusunu beraberinde getirsin.

> Ustelik bir cok yazilarda bir genellestirme yapiliyor, Turkler veya
> 'the Turks' diye bahs ediliyor. Bu sistemi ayakta tutan Turk'ler
> degildir, yukarida 'kaymak yiyenler' diye adlandirdiginiz kisilerdir.
> Bunlarin arasinda Kurt'ler de olmali. Sizin kadar olmasada Turk'lerde
> bu sistemdem zarar goruyor (gunde 14 saat calisip evdeki cocuklarinin
> karnini doyuramamak).

Bu sistemden zarar gormeyen zaten yok. Ama gelin gorunki her ne kadar
"Bir Turk dunyaya Bedeldir" denilse de Turkler aslinda korkaktir. Simdi
bu lafima her kes kizacaktir biliyorum. Ama yillardir inek gibi
sagildigini bilen, bastakilerin ulkenin kaymagini gozunun icine baka bak,
agzini sapirta da sapirta da yemesine seyirci kalan bir halka ne
denecegini bilemedigim icin 'korkak' dir diyorum. Yok eger sizin daha iyi
bir taniminiz varsa ben onu da kullanabilirim bence bir sakincasi yok.

> Bakin, ben bu konularda uzman degilim. Tarih'i fazla bilmem, ama
> bugunu bilirim. Ve duruma birseyler yapilmasi gerekilmesi oldugunu
> goruyorum. Herkes elinden geldigini yapmasini isterim. Etrafimda KURT
> kelimesi bir TABUdur ama yinede bol kullanirim ve inanirmisiz bu kucuk
> bir seyin bile faydasi oldu ! Kurt'lere kotu bakan ve kotu konusan
> ESAS BOLUCU ve TERORISTIR diye epey zamandir soyledim cevremde, bunun
> etkisi oldu inanin !

Erhan Bey, oncelikle iyi niyetiniz icin tesekkur etmek isterim. Sizin
gibi olaylara yaklasabilen cok az. Bu cok guzel bir sey. Sizdeki insani
degerlerinin henuz yokolmadiginin gostergesidir. Fakat diyelim ki Erhan
Bey tek tek insanlari sizin gibi olmayi becerdik (herhalde yuzlerce
yillara ihtiyac var), ne olacak? Bu devlet politikasina yansimadigi
surece biz yine haklarimizi alamiyacagiz, cocuklarimiza istedigimiz adi
koyamiyacagiz. Biraz once bahsettik Turk halkinin kendi cikarlari icin
bile sesini cikaramadigini, nasil Kurt halki icin sesini cikaracak? Biz
zaten kosul ne olursa olsun ses cikardik mi, terorist, bolucu oluyoruz.
Bunda hic bir zaman degisiklik olmayacak.

Ama ben yine de sizin kisi olarak elinizden geleni yapmaniza gercekten
saygi duyuyorum. Cunku hic bir seyi degistiremezsek de, kisi olarak
elimizden geleni yapmak bizim insanlik borcumuz. Bunu yapabilen sizin
gibileri gormek inanin cok guzel. Iste Turk insani sizin gibi davranmaya
basladiginda Kurt-Turk kardesligi icin umut var demektir.

> Ben KURT'un gercek yuzunu gormek istiyorum! Bize Kurt'leri tanitin,
> PKK'yi degil. >
> Hepimiz biliriz Kurt'lerin sesi guzeldir (hani derler ya, Urfa'da
> katir agirsa bile dinlelinir) ve bir cok sanatci Kurt'tur. Bence bunu
> saklamamalari lazim.
> Birde hep merak ederim MILLI takimda Kurt varmi diye, olsa ne guzel
> olur :)

Kurt'u anlatmak.... Bakin bu cok zor iste. hadi ben anlattim diyelim
sizin gercekten anlamanizi saglayabilir miyim bilmiyorum. Kurt'u dogulu
sanatcilarda yada futbolcularda anlayamazsiniz. Once Kurt kadinina
bakmaniz lazim. Onun hicligini, hic birakilmisligini, caresizligini,
dusurulmuslugunu, kadersizligini gormeniz gerek... Sonra Kurt
delikanlisina bakacaksiniz, onun dilsizligini, boynu bukuklugunu,
ezikligini, umutsuzlugunu goreceksiniz.... Gormek yetmez.. yureginizde o
aciyi hissetmeniz gerek. Oyle bir aci hissedeceksiniz ki yureginiz
dayanamayip isyan edecek. Olmamali bu insanlarin kaderi diyeceksiniz tum
yureginizle, bu duzen degismeli diye haykiracak beyniniz ....Iste once
bunlari hissedeceksiniz Kurd'u anlamak icin. Ve Kurd'u anlamak onu
sevmenin ve sorunlarinin cozumunun baslangici olabilir.....

> Sonra, birde Kurt'ce bir iki kelime ogretin bize, neden olmasin ?
> Siz bizim dilimizi ogrendiniz, biz neden sizinkini ogrenmiyelim.
> Nevete ciye? Saati ciye?

Erhan Bey, ben dilimi istiyorum diye haykirirken bosuna mi bagiriyorum?
Ben ne yazikki Kurtce bilmiyorum. Ne konusabiliyorum ne de yazabiliyorum.
Ama azimliyim (bu is inada bindi cunku) ogrenecegim. Malumunuz Kurt inadi
da oyle kolay gecen cinsden degildir. Gelecek gunlerde size guzel sozler
yazarim soz.

De ma xatire^ t'e (Hoscakalin)

Saygilarimla,

Hanife

>
> Saygilarimla,
> Erhan

[Erol Keskin]

Erol Keskin wrote:

And I'll tell you another thing you fucking moron:
I am nat a freaking Slav who is trying to pass as an Ancient
Greek! Neither I nor my government has any plans to pass
ourselves other than what we are.

You stupid "Dirt Squatter"!!!!!

[Stavros N Karageorgis]

In article <6090f4$h...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> RACER <MX-R...@worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Agamemnon wrote:

>> There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
>>

>Here from Britannica for your thick empty rascist head:

I wonder who has the empty head, dear friend. Did you actually READ what you
posted?

>Thrace: Brief Historical Background

<snip>

>As a result of wars and both forced and voluntary population migrations,
>the ethnic character of Thrace has become more homogeneous during the 20th
>century, although there are still large Turkish minorities in both Greek and
>Bulgarian Thrace.

I guess you read THIS part, right? And that made you happy. But did you also
read this?

<snip>

>The Muslim population was exempted from repatriation to Turkey by the Treaty
>of Lausanne in 1923, but many emigrated after the appropriation of their
>land in 1924 and subsequently continued to emigrate because of deteriorating
>relations between Greece and Turkey.

Even this is not entirely accurate since the lands of the etablis Muslims in
Greek Thrace were specifically EXCLUDED from being appropriated, and HAVE BEEN
excluded from state appropriation, unless as part of the country-wide rural
re-distribution programs.

BUT, did you read what follows?

>The Greek population of Thrace has grown rapidly since 1923 and is now
>the dominant population group, generally enjoying a higher standard of
>living than the Muslim minority. Greek is gradually supplanting Turkish as
>the language of instruction even in Muslim schools.

The last statement is patently false. Turkish is not only not being supplanted
by Greek in Muslim minority public schools in Thrace, it was and to a large
extent still is THE primary language of instruction even in POMAK villages.
Pomaks are NOT Turkicized Slavs at all, and their native tongue is NOT
Turkish, and yet, in accordance with the provisions of the Lausanne Treaty,
Pomak children, on account of their Muslim religion, are still (although this
is in the process of changing, with the development of Pomak school-books
etc.) taught in Turkish.

Read on.

>Tensions between Greeks and the remaining Muslims have led to
>occasional outbursts of intercommunal violence. Most Thracian Muslims
>are of Turkish ancestry and speak Turkish.

Not most. Roughly 50% thereof.

>The Pomak people, a Turkicized Muslim group speaking a
>Bulgarian dialect, are concentrated along the border with Bulgaria.

The Pomaks are NOT nor have they EVER been Turkicized. In all probability
their ancestors voluntarily converted to Islam during the Ottoman Empire
years. Islamization, especially for groups such as the Pomaks, did NOT mean
anything like Turkicization.

>There is also a small group of sedentary Gypsies who speak Romany and
>Turkish.

So, there you have it. Excepting some details, Britannica describes the
Thrakian Muslim Greek citizens as being primarily Turkish-descended
(Tourko-yeneis, in Greek) and Turko-phone, but including sizeable Pomak
(Slavonic-speaking and of still uncertain ethnological descent) and Roma/Gypsy
components. The Muslims of Greek Thrace are hegemonized by a Turkish
ethno-nationally identified intelligentsia and civic-leadership, most of whom
remain more or less loyal Greek citizens, but they are NOT one, unitary
ethno-national Turkish minority. Furthermore, Greek citizens of Muslim
religion have special religious minority community rights and protections,
flowing from the Lausanne Treaty(ies). Qua 'ethnic' Turk or qua 'ethnic
ANYTHING" no Greek citizen has (and that is as it should be) any special
rights or privileges.

To the extent that the descendants of Western Thrakian Muslims of the early
20th century are today ethno-nationally Turkicized (while their leaders were
staunchly and virulently ANTI-Kemalist and 'old-school' Muslims in the 1920's
and early 1930's), this is entirely due to the Greco-Turkish rapprochement
in the early 1930's, which gave the Kemalist Turkicizers free reign in Muslim
minority affairs, and allowed groups with few (if any) allegiance or
connection with Turks and Turkiye (ethnologically or ethno-linguistically) to
become progressively Turkicized, at least linguistically. It is really quite
fresh of the Turkish government and over-eager nationalist Turks to be
claiming that Greece has, and still is, oppressed any Turkish Muslim minority
of Greek citizens in Thrace. What has actually happened is that Greek citizens
of Muslim religion, regardless of their own ethnological and linguistic
backgrounds, and despite their originally virulently anti-Turkish (Kemalist
style) stances, have been TURKICIZED to a significant but NOT preponderant
extent, UNDER THE VERY NOSE of the allegedly 'obsessed' with creating
a by ethno-national identity homogeneous Greek citizenry.

<snip>

>Source: "Thrace", Britannica CD. Version 97. Encyclopaedia Britannica,
>Inc., 1997.

"And so much did our city [,Athens,] bequeath to the other peoples
in the ways of reason and speech, that her disciples did
in turn enlighten others, and the name of the Hellenes is
now considered pertinent not to race but rather to spirit,
to the point of calling Hellenes those with whom we share
education and upbringing, rather than those with whom we
share in nature."

Isocrates, Panegyricus, 50

Regards,
Stavros N. Karageorgis, C.Phil. (Sociology)
E-mail: kara...@ucla.edu

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Thanks, Adil. I had forgatten to put it. Actually, I had passed on
many info on that matter to both SCT and SCG before,
therefore, I do not want to resend the same info here again.
I know Alex in person, I met him many times in the campus and
Greek nights. He is the president of the Hellenic club here, and is
totally confused and his brain is tangled up-). Sometimes he is
e-mailing us to meet at coffee house for chatting or having a lunch
together. He was telling us how racist the Hellenic club members are
and most of them having hatred feeling against the Turks in Davis
campus, even they were born in US and never beeen to Greece
and Turkey before. Sounds like they are having a hihg-level
education on this matter in their families:-))))
sometimes he is calling us up to complain about Hellenic club
members and claiming that they have low IQ and brainwashed people,
living still in history. Next day, he is calling us to say that he
has no respect for Turks. He must be an idiot, and certainly we all
know how double-faced he is, so we are just ignoring him. Person*ly,
I met several Greeks here in campus, just few of them are really
civilized and nice people. But the rest, including Alex (about 90%
of those Greeks I met in the Davis campus) are all the same... just
thrash.
Alex, the Greatest Ignorant, likes spawing his hatred feeling from
time to time to SCT and adding many other discussion groups to CC
to search for any person who supports his moronic, baseless and
pointless claims. He must be extremely weak to support his pointless
claims...

Regards,
Hakan

Adil (bagu...@aludra.usc.edu) wrote:

: On 22 Sep 1997, Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
:
: #Alex, Dost:-)

: # You have no clue on what pkk is... It is a separatist terrorist
: #organization which has support only from Greece, Syria, Russia.
:
: Actually, Armenia is also involved, as all the Russian weapons had to pass

: through Armenia. Some news reports also suggest Armenia providing training
: and refuge to PKK.

:
:

--

[uzman]

Merhaba Erhan,

Kürt kelimesinin Türkiye'de ta Özal zamanindan beri tabu olmadigini
unutmayiniz. Ankara'da Selanik Caddesine gitsinler lütfen Kürtceye baski
var dyien arkadaslar ve bir tane "Welat" alsinlar. Ben, Kürtce
bilmedigim icin okuyamadim. Kürtce müzik yasak deme rahatligini
göseteren arkadaslar da Ankara'da FM bandini bir tarasinlar, bazi
istasyonlarda neredeyse sadece Kürtce müzik duyduklari zaman, umarim,
iclerinde birazcik olsun, birazcik özelestiri yetisi varsa, en azindan
"ben neler anlatmistim millete" der.

Uzman

****** Bu mesajin Macar grubunda isi ne dostlar silinmistir******

[Nevit & Ilham]

George Soumakis wrote:
>
> RACER wrote:
> >
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> > >
> > > Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> > >
>
> At least there is a muslim minority to speak of... What happen to the
> Greek and Christian minorities in turkey???? They have lost all their
> lands in Turkey and all their lands (ie. imbros) and 1955 in
> Konstantinople.
>
> George
>

Do you deny that there are Turks in Greece and Cyprus and say there are
only Moslem Greeks?

Nevit

> > > >
> > > >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
> > > >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
> > > >
> > > >******************************************************************
> > > >
> > > >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
> > > >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
> > > >
> > > >

> > > There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
> > >

--
mailto:nev...@ibm.net
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/9594/tiles.htm
---

[Hakan Basagaoglu]

Alex the Greatest ignorant says:

>ez05...@mailbox.ucdavis.edu Alexandros Aliferis at University of
>California, Davis

> I laugh at this propaganda in Turkey because it's nothing, but to
>unify the nation towards a threat.
> For the Turks, they make the Kurds and Christians as a threat. The
>Turks have to remember that their ancestors are not Turks but the orginal
>inhabitiants of Anatolia. The Turks are nothing, but an American....all
>mixed into bowl. The difference is they don't uphold Civil liberties

***************************
>towards their minorities.
**************************

but his folk claims that (without any single referance, as usual)

: > >
: > >
: > There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
: >
: > Agamemnon

well, above is the another typical example for Greek mentality on how
they uphold Civil liberties towards their minorities:-) even they have no
clue on what the monority is and who are called minority. This must be the
same mentality they had when they wiped out all other civilizations in
Anatolia during the Greek period.

Agamemnon, read the Racer's message below and also visit the nearest
library before spawing your hatred feeling here. By the way, dont forget
to take Alex 'the Greatest Ignorant' with you.

Hakan

RACER (MX-R...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: Agamemnon wrote:
: >
: > Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...

: >
: > >
: > >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*

: > >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
: > >
: > >******************************************************************
: > >
: > >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
: > >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!

:
:
: LOL YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY. ENJOY MF!

[Peter MacFarlane]

RACER wrote:

> Here from Britannica for your thick empty rascist head:
>
> Thrace: Brief Historical Background
>
>
>
> Thrace, Thráki (Greek), Thracia (Latin) Trakya (Turkish) is the
> South-eastern region of
>

> [cut]

>
> Source: "Thrace", Britannica CD. Version 97. Encyclopaedia Britannica,
>
> Inc., 1997.

Dear Racer,

You really can't expect the world to take you seriously. You bleat about
the rights of Turks in Greece, in full knowledge of the fact that the
Treaty of Lausanne makes their welfare contingent on Turkey's respect
for the rights of the corrsesponding Greek minority in Turkey. In 1955
Turkey kicked the Greek minority out of Turkey. In the meantime the
Turkish minority (which represents only HALF of Greece's Muslim minority
-- the rest are Pomaks and Gypsies) in Greece has thrived both
numerically and economically. The Greek minority in Turkey in now
virtually non-existent.

You can't have it both ways Racer. If you're a just man maybe you'll
think again before posting information with such a willfully misleading
intent.

PM

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

In article <34285C88...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,

Sayin Hanife hanim,

Ben hicbirsekilde kimsozkonusu olursa olsun, insan haklarinin
cignenmesine tamamiyle karsiyim... Bunu yapan bircok zaman TC dir,
dogru. Ve Kurtler doguda ezilmislerdir, haksizca katledilmislerdir, bunu
TC yapmistir, dogru. Goruyorsunuzki ben dogruya dogru diyebiliyorum.
Fakat asil nokta sudur; Ortada bir kavga sozkonusudur ve bu kavgada
taraflarin her ikiside bir sekilde, kurallari cignemektedirler. Pkk
yansitmaya calisdiginiz gibi, daha cok TC ye karsi defans amacli olan bir
orgut degildir. Pkk kendisini TC ye hissetdirebilmeyi enbuyuk
amacbilmistir, bununda nedeni ve asil olan tek nedeni Kurdistandir.
Sizinle Kurdistan olmalimi hic deginmek dahi istemiyorum fakat sonuc
olarak bu kavgada insan haklari cignendigi anda iki tarafda haksiz
durumdadir. TC kavgada haksiz degildir, fakat yaptigi yanlis icin
hatalidir sadece. ki buda insan haklarini cignemesidir. Oncelikle sunu
kabul edin, TC derken TC fasistdir deyipde atlamayin. TC Dunyanin en
garip devletidirki, icinde bircokkonuda, bircokzit gorusler icinde bir
halka sahip. TC de din bir sorundur, dil bir sorundur, okul bir
sorundur, bazen tutdugun takim bile bir sorundurki, tek sorun olmiyan
insanlarin renkleri olsagerek onunda nedeni TC de fazla renkli insanlar
bulunmayisi... TC kisilik sorunu olan bir ruh hastasi gibidir. Dusununki
siz bu hastanin bir yakinisiniz, neyapmaniz gerekirdi soruyorum... Ben
bu hastanin bir yakiniyim, bir parcasiyim, ve ben bu hastaya ne bazilari
gibi arkami donuyorum... Ne onun dusmani oluyorum, nede ona hatalarinda
destekci oluyorum...Ben bu hastadan sorumluyum, bu hastayi nevarki
seviyorum, ve kendime edindigim enbuyuk gorevlerden biride onu
iyilestirmek... Cunku o iyilesmezse, ne Turku, nede Kurdu, nede baskasi,
hicbirzaman mutlu olamayiz.

Botan
( belki biliyorsunuz, adim Kurtcedir )

[Evangelos Mamaloukas]

Article 19, as you mention below, has recently (or is in the process of
being - I am not sure) been abolished from Greek legislation.

RACER <MX-R...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<608tbp$5...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...

> Agamemnon wrote:
> >
> > Hakan Basagaoglu wrote in article <6052t3$9i9$2...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
> >
> > >

> > >some more clue on todays Greeks for *Alex the Greatest Ignorant*
> > >(as usual all from the non-Turkish soources)
> > >
> > >******************************************************************
> > >
> > >Example for human rights in Greece!!!
> > >Violence against The Turkish Minority in Western Thrace!!!!!
> > >
> > >

> > There is no Turkish Minoity in Greece, only Greek Muslims.
> >
> > Agamemnon
>
>

[hanife]

do...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

Sayin Botan,

Adinizin Kurt ismi oldugunu biliyorum. ustelikde cok guzel bir isim. Eh
Kurtce isim alabildiginize gore 1982'den once dogdugunuzu varsayiyorum
Biliyorsunuz 1982 Anayasa'si "Turk geleneklerineaykiri" kisi ve yer
isimler konulmasini yasakliyor.

> Sayin Hanife hanim,
>
> Ben hicbirsekilde kimsozkonusu olursa olsun, insan haklarinin
> cignenmesine tamamiyle karsiyim... Bunu yapan bircok zaman TC dir,
> dogru. Ve Kurtler doguda ezilmislerdir, haksizca katledilmislerdir,
> bunu
> TC yapmistir, dogru. Goruyorsunuzki ben dogruya dogru diyebiliyorum.
>

Bunlari gorebildiginize gercekten sevindim.

> Fakat asil nokta sudur; Ortada bir kavga sozkonusudur ve bu kavgada
> taraflarin her ikiside bir sekilde, kurallari cignemektedirler. Pkk
> yansitmaya calisdiginiz gibi, daha cok TC ye karsi defans amacli olan
> bir
> orgut degildir.

Bu konuda sizinle hemfikirim. Zaten ortada bir savas varsa ben kimsenin
ellerinin temiz kalacagini sanmiyorum. Bana gore bunu idia eden kisi
gercekleri inkar ediyor demektir. Ama bu savasin disindada olsa ortada
aci icerisinde yasayan, ezim ezim ezilen bir Kurt halki var ki, iste bu
benim yuregimi terim yerindeyse "cayir cayir" yakiyor. Ve bu caresizlik,
umutsuzluk, karsi karsiya kaldiklari haksiz tavir o insanlarida savasin
icerisine cekiyor. Baska secnekleri var mi? Ben bu gectigimiz mart
ayinda Turkiye'deydim. Devlet Igdir'da devlet toreniyle Nweruz
kutluyordu. televizyondan seyrediyorum cevre koylerden kimse gitmemis.
ATV televizyonu soruyor insanlara "bakin devlet sizin icin Newruz
kutlamasi yapiyor, nicin katilmiyorsunuz" . Bi koylunun vrdigi cevap cok
anlamliydi: "Newruz bizim neyimize gerek, devlet bize bir iyilik
yapacaksa yaylaya cikma yasagini kaldirsin. benim hayvanlarimin yarisi
gecek yaz sicaktan telef oldu. Eger bu senede yasak kalkmazsa benim
hayvanlarimin hepsi olur. Coluk cocuk biz ne yiyecegiz?". Iste o zaman
anneme donup "Bu develt bu yaz o yasagi kaldirmaz, bu adamlarin
hayvanlari olup gider, bu kis da bunlarin cocuklari gider PKK'ya
katilir" demistim. Simdi kim gercek suclu burada? Mecliste bu karari
alan adamin cebine ayda 350-500 milyon geciyor, bu insanlari mi
dusunecek?

Ya "koy korucus" olmuyor diye yerinden, yurdundan edilen halka ne
demeli? Kisin sogundan yasadigi cadirda yeterince korunamadiklari icin
cocuklari olen ana-baba ne hisseder sizce? Ve eger bu kislerin cocuklari
PKK'ya katilirsa kim suclayabilir onlari?
Suarsi barizki, ortada gorevini yapmayan bir devlet var. Ve onun
hatalarini cok iyi kullanan PKK.

Benim PKK'nin defansindan kastettigim sey, silahli mucadele acisindan
degildi. PKK Kurt dili, kulturu, varligi icin mucadele ediyor (en
azindan oyle soyluyor). TC ise 70+ yil once vermesi gereken Kurt
haklarini vermemek icin savasiyor. TC artik Kurt'lerin ne kadar
tehlikeli olduklarini anladi. Eger bu savasi kazanirsa benim hic kuskum
yokki, bir daha boyle isyanlarin cikmamsi icin elinden geleni ardina
koymayacaktir. Bundan zerre kadar kuskum yok. Iste bu konumda PKK Kurt
halki adina "savunmadadir" demek istemistim.Cunku bugun PKK olmasin
Turkiye yildirim gibi ortaligi darmadagin edecektir.

> Pkk kendisini TC ye hissetdirebilmeyi enbuyuk
> amacbilmistir, bununda nedeni ve asil olan tek nedeni Kurdistandir.
> Sizinle Kurdistan olmalimi hic deginmek dahi istemiyorum fakat sonuc
> olarak bu kavgada insan haklari cignendigi anda iki tarafda haksiz
> durumdadir. TC kavgada haksiz degildir, fakat yaptigi yanlis icin
> hatalidir sadece. ki buda insan haklarini cignemesidir.

Butun yaptiklarina sadece "hata" demek sizce dogrumu? Siz, ben bunu
gorebiliyorsak, haber alma uzmanlariyla olsun, politik danismanlariyla
olsun bunu sizce TC niye goremiyor? Belki de gore gore bu secimi yapiyor
ne dersiniz? Bunu yaptigi kesin cunku bu politikayi 10+ yildir
uyguluyor. Sizce bir hatayi farketmek icin yeterince uzun bir sure degil
mi? Sayin Botan, sizde biliyorsunuz ki bu TC'nin Kurt politikasi. Aci
ama gercek bu.....

> Oncelikle sunu
> kabul edin, TC derken TC fasistdir deyipde atlamayin.

Sayin Botan, korumasi gerektigi halkina bile bile eziyet eden, onlari
bile bile PKK ile sahip oldugu savasta taraf olmaya zorlayan, bunu
Kurd'u Kurd'e kirdirmak icin yapan bir devlete "fasist" demezsem kime
diyecegim?

> TC Dunyanin en
> garip devletidirki, icinde bircokkonuda, bircokzit gorusler icinde bir
>
> halka sahip. TC de din bir sorundur, dil bir sorundur, okul bir
> sorundur, bazen tutdugun takim bile bir sorundurki, tek sorun olmiyan
> insanlarin renkleri olsagerek onunda nedeni TC de fazla renkli
> insanlar

> bulunmayisi...TC kisilik sorunu olan bir ruh hastasi gibidir.
> Dusununki

> siz bu hastanin bir yakinisiniz, neyapmaniz gerekirdi soruyorum...
> Ben

> bu hastanin bir yakiniyim, bir parcasiyim, ve ben bu hastaya ne
> bazilari
> gibi arkami donuyorum... Ne onun dusmani oluyorum, nede ona
> hatalarinda
> destekci oluyorum...Ben bu hastadan sorumluyum, bu hastayi nevarki
> seviyorum, ve kendime edindigim enbuyuk gorevlerden biride onu
> iyilestirmek... Cunku o iyilesmezse, ne Turku, nede Kurdu, nede
> baskasi,
> hicbirzaman mutlu olamayiz.
>
> Botan
> ( belki biliyorsunuz, adim Kurtcedir )
>

Sayin Botan dogrusu Turkiye'nin sorunlarini cok iyi ozetlemissiniz.
Butun bunlara katiliyorum. dediginiz gibi TC hasta, ama bu hasta degisik
bir hasta. Bu hasta hastaligini kabul etmeyen, tedavi olmayi rededen bir
hasta. Kendisinin "turp" gibi oldugunu soyleyen bir hastayi nasil
tedaviye ikna edeceksiniz? Bilirsiniz hasta oldugunu kabul etmeyen
insanlarin garip psikolojileri vardir. Siz hasta olduklarini, tedaviye
ihtiyaclari olduklarini soyledikce size kizmaya baslarlar. Bunu yapmaya
devam ederseniz, tedaviye ikna etmeye calistiginiz kisi, sizin ona
"komplo" kurdugunuzu dusunmeye baslar, ve bir gun gelir sizi kendisine
dusman ilen eder.

Sayin Botan boyle bir hastanin "tedavi" edilmesi gerektigi fikrinize
katiliyorum. Simdi, hasta oldugunu kabul etmeyen, ilac almayi, doktora
gitmeyi rededen bir hastaya ne yapilir: ya birakirsiniz kendi haline ve
umut edersinizki bir gun gercegi kabul etsin ve bu arada da olmemesi
icin dua edersiniz; yada zorla doktora goturur tedaviyi zorla
aldirirsiniz. Sayin Botan siz hangisini secerdiniz?

Saygilarimla,

Hanife

[Nikos Sarantakos]

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:38:30, kara...@ucla.edu (Stavros N
Karageorgis) wrote:

>rights or privileges.
>
>To the extent that the descendants of Western Thrakian Muslims of the early
>20th century are today ethno-nationally Turkicized (while their leaders were
>staunchly and virulently ANTI-Kemalist and 'old-school' Muslims in the 1920's
>and early 1930's), this is entirely due to the Greco-Turkish rapprochement
>in the early 1930's, which gave the Kemalist Turkicizers free reign in Muslim
>minority affairs, and allowed groups with few (if any) allegiance or
>connection with Turks and Turkiye (ethnologically or ethno-linguistically) to
>become progressively Turkicized, at least linguistically. It is really quite
>fresh of the Turkish government and over-eager nationalist Turks to be
>claiming that Greece has, and still is, oppressed any Turkish Muslim minority
>of Greek citizens in Thrace. What has actually happened is that Greek citizens
>of Muslim religion, regardless of their own ethnological and linguistic
>backgrounds, and despite their originally virulently anti-Turkish (Kemalist
>style) stances, have been TURKICIZED to a significant but NOT preponderant
>extent, UNDER THE VERY NOSE of the allegedly 'obsessed' with creating
>a by ethno-national identity homogeneous Greek citizenry.
>

A second shot in the arm happened during the '50s (1953?) when the
Greek Government, just having concluded an anti-Warsaw-Pact 'Balkan
Friendship Covenant' with Turkey and Yugoslavia , forcibly
accelerated the turkification of Muslims, inter alia by forcing them
to rename their associations from 'Muslim' to 'Turk'. Obviously, this
lunatic policy stopped with the 1955 pogroms in Istanbul.

NS

[-Surensoy,E.]

Turkiye'nin hic bir anayasasi, 1982 anayasasi da dahil, "Turk
geleneklerine aykiri" kisi ve yer isimleri yasaklamaz. Onceki iki
anayasalar gibi, 1982 Anayasasinin ilgili hukunleri aynen soyledir:

Madde 10: Herkes, dil, irk, renk, cinsiyet, siyasi, dusunce, felsefi
inanc, din, mezhep ve benzeri sebeblerle ayrim gezettilmeksizin kanun
onunde esittir.

Hicbir kisiye, aileye, zumreye veya sinifa imtiyaz taninamaz

Devlet organlari ve idare makamlari butun islemlerinde kanun onunde
esitlik ilkesine uygun olarak hareket etmek zorundadir.

Madde 12: Herkes, kisiligine bagli, dokunulmaz, devredilmez,
vazgecilmez temel hak ve hurriyetlere sahiptir.

Temel hak ve hurriyetler, kisinin topluma, ailesine ve diger
kisilere karsi odev ve sorumluluklarini da ihtiva eder.

Madde 14: (1 nci Pragraf) Anayasada yer alan hak ve hurriyetlerin
hicbiri, Devletin ulkesi ve milletiyle bolunmez butunlugunu bozmak,
Turk Devletinin ve Cumhuriyetinin varligini tehlikeye dusurmek, temel
hak ve hurriyetleri yok etmek, Devletin bir kisi veya zumre tarafindan
yonetilmesini veya bir sosyal sinifin diger sosyal siniflar uzerinde
egemenligini saglamak veya dil, irk, din, ve mezhep ayrimi yaratmak
veya sair herhangi bir yoldan bu kavram ve goruslere dayanan bir
devlet duzeni kurmak amacila kullanilamazlar.

Adi Arapca olan Hanife Turkiye hakkinda kin ve yalan propagandasi
yapacagina, adini derhal Kurtce bir adla degistirip, kendisine Kurtce
ad vermemis olan anasina babasina bozulsun.

../..

In article <342C62D2...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu),
hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu) wrote:
)do...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
)
)Sayin Botan,
)
)Adinizin Kurt ismi oldugunu biliyorum. ustelikde cok guzel bir isim. Eh
)Kurtce isim alabildiginize gore 1982'den once dogdugunuzu varsayiyorum
)Biliyorsunuz 1982 Anayasa'si "Turk geleneklerineaykiri" kisi ve yer
)isimler konulmasini yasakliyor.
)
)> Sayin Hanife hanim,
)>
)> Ben hicbirsekilde kimsozkonusu olursa olsun, insan haklarinin
)> cignenmesine tamamiyle karsiyim... Bunu yapan bircok zaman TC dir,
)> dogru. Ve Kurtler doguda ezilmislerdir, haksizca katledilmislerdir,
)> bunu
)> TC yapmistir, dogru. Goruyorsunuzki ben dogruya dogru diyebiliyorum.
)>
)
)Bunlari gorebildiginize gercekten sevindim.
)
)> Fakat asil nokta sudur; Ortada bir kavga sozkonusudur ve bu kavgada
)> taraflarin her ikiside bir sekilde, kurallari cignemektedirler. Pkk
)> yansitmaya calisdiginiz gibi, daha cok TC ye karsi defans amacli olan
)> bir
)> orgut degildir.
)
)Bu konuda sizinle hemfikirim. Zaten ortada bir savas varsa ben kimsenin
)ellerinin temiz kalacagini sanmiyorum. Bana gore bunu idia eden kisi
)gercekleri inkar ediyor demektir. Ama bu savasin disindada olsa ortada
)aci icerisinde yasayan, ezim ezim ezilen bir Kurt halki var ki, iste bu
)benim yuregimi terim yerindeyse "cayir cayir" yakiyor. Ve bu caresizlik,
)umutsuzluk, karsi karsiya kaldiklari haksiz tavir o insanlarida savasin
)icerisine cekiyor. Baska secnekleri var mi? Ben bu gectigimiz mart
)ayinda Turkiye'deydim. Devlet Igdir'da devlet toreniyle Nweruz
)kutluyordu. televizyondan seyrediyorum cevre koylerden kimse gitmemis.
)ATV televizyonu soruyor insanlara "bakin devlet sizin icin Newruz
)kutlamasi yapiyor, nicin katilmiyorsunuz" . Bi koylunun vrdigi cevap cok
)anlamliydi: "Newruz bizim neyimize gerek, devlet bize bir iyilik
)yapacaksa yaylaya cikma yasagini kaldirsin. benim hayvanlarimin yarisi
)gecek yaz sicaktan telef oldu. Eger bu senede yasak kalkmazsa benim
)hayvanlarimin hepsi olur. Coluk cocuk biz ne yiyecegiz?". Iste o zaman
)anneme donup "Bu develt bu yaz o yasagi kaldirmaz, bu adamlarin
)hayvanlari olup gider, bu kis da bunlarin cocuklari gider PKK'ya
)katilir" demistim. Simdi kim gercek suclu burada? Mecliste bu karari
)alan adamin cebine ayda 350-500 milyon geciyor, bu insanlari mi
)dusunecek?
)
)Ya "koy korucus" olmuyor diye yerinden, yurdundan edilen halka ne
)demeli? Kisin sogundan yasadigi cadirda yeterince korunamadiklari icin
)cocuklari olen ana-baba ne hisseder sizce? Ve eger bu kislerin cocuklari
)PKK'ya katilirsa kim suclayabilir onlari?
)Suarsi barizki, ortada gorevini yapmayan bir devlet var. Ve onun
)hatalarini cok iyi kullanan PKK.
)
)Benim PKK'nin defansindan kastettigim sey, silahli mucadele acisindan
)degildi. PKK Kurt dili, kulturu, varligi icin mucadele ediyor (en
)azindan oyle soyluyor). TC ise 70+ yil once vermesi gereken Kurt
)haklarini vermemek icin savasiyor. TC artik Kurt'lerin ne kadar
)tehlikeli olduklarini anladi. Eger bu savasi kazanirsa benim hic kuskum
)yokki, bir daha boyle isyanlarin cikmamsi icin elinden geleni ardina
)koymayacaktir. Bundan zerre kadar kuskum yok. Iste bu konumda PKK Kurt
)halki adina "savunmadadir" demek istemistim.Cunku bugun PKK olmasin
)Turkiye yildirim gibi ortaligi darmadagin edecektir.
)
)
)> Pkk kendisini TC ye hissetdirebilmeyi enbuyuk
)> amacbilmistir, bununda nedeni ve asil olan tek nedeni Kurdistandir.
)> Sizinle Kurdistan olmalimi hic deginmek dahi istemiyorum fakat sonuc
)> olarak bu kavgada insan haklari cignendigi anda iki tarafda haksiz
)> durumdadir. TC kavgada haksiz degildir, fakat yaptigi yanlis icin
)> hatalidir sadece. ki buda insan haklarini cignemesidir.
)
)Butun yaptiklarina sadece "hata" demek sizce dogrumu? Siz, ben bunu
)gorebiliyorsak, haber alma uzmanlariyla olsun, politik danismanlariyla
)olsun bunu sizce TC niye goremiyor? Belki de gore gore bu secimi yapiyor
)ne dersiniz? Bunu yaptigi kesin cunku bu politikayi 10+ yildir
)uyguluyor. Sizce bir hatayi farketmek icin yeterince uzun bir sure degil
)mi? Sayin Botan, sizde biliyorsunuz ki bu TC'nin Kurt politikasi. Aci
)ama gercek bu.....
)
)> Oncelikle sunu
)> kabul edin, TC derken TC fasistdir deyipde atlamayin.
)
)Sayin Botan, korumasi gerektigi halkina bile bile eziyet eden, onlari
)bile bile PKK ile sahip oldugu savasta taraf olmaya zorlayan, bunu
)Kurd'u Kurd'e kirdirmak icin yapan bir devlete "fasist" demezsem kime
)diyecegim?
)
)> TC Dunyanin en
)> garip devletidirki, icinde bircokkonuda, bircokzit gorusler icinde bir
)>
)> halka sahip. TC de din bir sorundur, dil bir sorundur, okul bir
)> sorundur, bazen tutdugun takim bile bir sorundurki, tek sorun olmiyan
)> insanlarin renkleri olsagerek onunda nedeni TC de fazla renkli
)> insanlar
)> bulunmayisi...TC kisilik sorunu olan bir ruh hastasi gibidir.
)> Dusununki
)
)> siz bu hastanin bir yakinisiniz, neyapmaniz gerekirdi soruyorum...
)> Ben
)
)> bu hastanin bir yakiniyim, bir parcasiyim, ve ben bu hastaya ne
)> bazilari
)> gibi arkami donuyorum... Ne onun dusmani oluyorum, nede ona
)> hatalarinda
)> destekci oluyorum...Ben bu hastadan sorumluyum, bu hastayi nevarki
)> seviyorum, ve kendime edindigim enbuyuk gorevlerden biride onu
)> iyilestirmek... Cunku o iyilesmezse, ne Turku, nede Kurdu, nede
)> baskasi,
)> hicbirzaman mutlu olamayiz.
)>
)> Botan
)> ( belki biliyorsunuz, adim Kurtcedir )
)>
)
)Sayin Botan dogrusu Turkiye'nin sorunlarini cok iyi ozetlemissiniz.
)Butun bunlara katiliyorum. dediginiz gibi TC hasta, ama bu hasta degisik
)bir hasta. Bu hasta hastaligini kabul etmeyen, tedavi olmayi rededen bir
)hasta. Kendisinin "turp" gibi oldugunu soyleyen bir hastayi nasil
)tedaviye ikna edeceksiniz? Bilirsiniz hasta oldugunu kabul etmeyen
)insanlarin garip psikolojileri vardir. Siz hasta olduklarini, tedaviye
)ihtiyaclari olduklarini soyledikce size kizmaya baslarlar. Bunu yapmaya
)devam ederseniz, tedaviye ikna etmeye calistiginiz kisi, sizin ona
)"komplo" kurdugunuzu dusunmeye baslar, ve bir gun gelir sizi kendisine
)dusman ilen eder.
)
)Sayin Botan boyle bir hastanin "tedavi" edilmesi gerektigi fikrinize
)katiliyorum. Simdi, hasta oldugunu kabul etmeyen, ilac almayi, doktora
)gitmeyi rededen bir hastaya ne yapilir: ya birakirsiniz kendi haline ve
)umut edersinizki bir gun gercegi kabul etsin ve bu arada da olmemesi
)icin dua edersiniz; yada zorla doktora goturur tedaviyi zorla
)aldirirsiniz. Sayin Botan siz hangisini secerdiniz?
)
)Saygilarimla,
)
)Hanife
)
)
)
)
)> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News
)> ====-----------------------
)> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
)
)
)

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

In article <342C62D2...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,

Sayin Hanife hanim, TC nin Kurt politikasi bir yana, bir de Enflasyon zam
politikasi, yolsuzluk, peskes, yalancilik, sozunde durmama, yakinbir
zamana kadar dini somurme politikasi, yazarlari sanatcilari sansurleme
politikasi, bazilarini iceri tikma politikasi gibi vesaire politikalarida
mevcutdur, bilirsiniz. Simdik koca devleti basinda T.C. bukadar
politikayi halkina yedirmeye kalkiyor hatda uyguluyorda, kimseler birsey
yapamiyor bazilarida yapmiyor, budurumda Kurdude, Turkude, Aleviside
vesaireside can cekismiyormu? Aslinda Turkiyede politika heryonuyle cok
cirkindir. Sokakdaki her vatandas haksizliklarin, dolandiricilarin,
birtakim politikalarin kurbanidir. Diyorsunuzki bu hasta T.C. , hasta
oldugunu kabullenmiyor, neyapalim, PKK olup bizde adam oldurelim, bizde
insan hakki cigneyelim, Turkiyeyi bolelim, Kurde Kurdistan saglayalimda,
en azindan kendimizi bu cileli hastanin yanindan uzaklastiralim...
Diyorsunuzki, bu hasta T.C. umrumda hicmi hic degil, ben Kurdu
kurtarayimda, geride kalanda irkini one sursun, teror yaratsin, kendi
haline, caresine baksinlar. Zaten Turkiyede 100% Turku cokda degil,
herkezler bir gruba, sempati duyabilir, bir kulturu yasatma arzusu adi
altina saklanip teror estirebilir. Yok Hanife hanim, bu - is - boyle -
olmaz....... Kultur yasatmak terorle olmaz. Vatani bolmeye calismak,
hatda bolmek kulturunuze, kulturumuze birseyler kazandirmaz. Iste
bunedenle, " PKK ya Kurt diyerek Kurtlerin itibarini zedeliyorsunuz "
diye yazmistim size. Turkiyeyi anlamamiz gerek Hanife hanim... Turkiyeye
el uzatmamiz gerek, ona dost olmamiz gerek. Kardesligi politikalarin
zedeleyemeyecegi noktalara tasimamiz, onu oylesine ortaya koymamiz
gerekki, politikalar yaninda sonuk kalmali, ona boyun egmeli ve bizlerde
gercekte ayni olan amacimiza ulasalim. PKK yi sevmiyorum, ondan nefret
ediyorum demeliyiz once... Turk milliyetciligininde Kurde kucak acmasi,
fasizme kapisini kapatmasi gerek. Sonra politikacilarin yenilenmesi
lazim... Ciller, Erbakan ve bunlardan beter digerlerinin gercekten
vatandasi olup yasamayi arzuladiklari ulkelerine geri gonderilmeleri
gerekmektedir. Turkiyede ekonominin kalkinmasi, egitimin cagdaslasmasi
lazim... Sayin hanife hanim, kini ve onyargiyi biraksaniz, kulturunuzu ve
iyi niyetinizi asil dogru olan yonde odaklamaniz mumkun olucakdir... Ve
inanin, ozaman, gercek bir hak savascisi olucaksiniz....

Saygilarimla,
Botan

Son olarak, Burdan Enis beyede bir cif sozum olucak. Sayin Enis bey
Hanife hanima reply ederken guzel bir olayi aciklamissinizda, yazinizi
sonunda hakaret ederek nekadarda degersizlestirmissiniz... Lutfen
birakalim bu saplantilarimizi artik... Baskalarinin yanlis yaptigina
inandigimizda dahi saygi ile mudehale etmesini bilelim.. Umarim beni
anlayisla karsilarsiniz!

[Hakki Kocabas]

In message <<60jb5b$c...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>> en...@ihgp4.ih.lucent.com writes:
> Turkiye'nin hic bir anayasasi, 1982 anayasasi da dahil, "Turk
> geleneklerine aykiri" kisi ve yer isimleri yasaklamaz. Onceki iki
> anayasalar gibi, 1982 Anayasasinin ilgili hukunleri aynen soyledir:
>
> Madde 10: Herkes, dil, irk, renk, cinsiyet, siyasi, dusunce, felsefi
> inanc, din, mezhep ve benzeri sebeblerle ayrim gezettilmeksizin kanun
> onunde esittir.

Muslumanlar haric, onlar "Irtica Hortluyoooo!" naralariyla
her turlu ayrima tabi tutulabilir, okullari kapatilabilir,
vakiflarina ve her turlu varliklarina el konulabilir,
camilere giri$-ciki$lari vizeye baglanabilir, ya da
polis joplarina baglana bilir...onlarin urettikleri
mallarin alim-satimi yasaklanabilir, oncelikler
devlet kurulu$larinin bunlara boykot uygulamasi
yapmasina Genlekurmay'ca davet cikarilabilir, brifingler
verilebilir, bunlari sakalli, ba$ortulu bahaneleriyle
okullardan, devlet dairelerinden cali$maktan, orduda
subay olarak gorev almaktan alikonabilir...daha neler
neler yapilabilir bu mazlum insanlara Bekta$iler tarafindan,
bu onlarin keyfine kalmi$tir - silah onlarda ya keyif de
onlardadir;->RO(T/F)L
Fakat, bu saltanat ne kadar surer?!
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||

[Mehmet Gulsen]

> hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:

>Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
> yerlerinden edilmistir.

Hanife,

Agzindan cikani kulagin duyuyor mu? "Moralist" ayaklari
atip, sonra boyle bariz yalanlar yazmak edepsizligin ta kendisi
degil mi?

Mehmet,

[hanife]

Sayin Surensoy,

Siz gunumuzde kendini 'demokratik' diye niteleyen ulkeler icerisinden
her hangi birinin anayasasinda 'irkcilik serbest', 'iskence serbest'
diye maddeeler bulundugunu gordunuzm uki Turkiye'nin anayasasinda
olmasini bekliyorsunuz. Turk anayasasina gore 'iskence' de yasaktir ama
her yil yuzlerce insan iskence sirasinda oluyor. Oyleyse ne anlami var
anayasada bulunan ama 'islerligi' olmayan maddelerin? Bir ulkeyi
demokratik yapan, anayasasinda ne kadar insan haklari ile ilgili
maddelerin oldugu degil, o maddelerin ne kadarinin uygulandigidir.

Simdi bu anayasanin 10. maddesi varken, benim "The Facts" adi altinda
yayinladigim orneklerin olusumunu nasil acikliyorsunuz? Ozellikle
ilkokula giden cocuklarin o yastan sonra isim degistirmeye zorlanmasina
ne diyorsunuz? Ne ise yarayor sizin madde 10?
Guzel aksesuar ha?

Hanife

[uzman]

Hanife Hanim (Hanim sanirim)

Bir dakikanizi ayirirsaniz sevinirim.

hanife wrote:

> Sayin Surensoy,
>
> Siz gunumuzde kendini 'demokratik' diye niteleyen ulkeler icerisinden
> her hangi birinin anayasasinda 'irkcilik serbest', 'iskence serbest'
> diye maddeeler bulundugunu gordunuzm uki Turkiye'nin anayasasinda
> olmasini bekliyorsunuz.

Israil'de iskence uygulamasi anayasa mahkemesince de onaylandi. Bilginize.

> Turk anayasasina gore 'iskence' de yasaktir ama
> her yil yuzlerce insan iskence sirasinda oluyor.

Amnesty bile yüzlerceden bahsetmiyor. Nasil ulastiniz bu rakama ? Hele hele
Amnesty'nin raporlarinda bile son zamanlarda iskencede ölüm olaylarina
rastlanamazken !

> Oyleyse ne anlami var
> anayasada bulunan ama 'islerligi' olmayan maddelerin? Bir ulkeyi
> demokratik yapan, anayasasinda ne kadar insan haklari ile ilgili
> maddelerin oldugu degil, o maddelerin ne kadarinin uygulandigidir.
>

Hmmm

> Simdi bu anayasanin 10. maddesi varken, benim "The Facts" adi altinda
> yayinladigim orneklerin olusumunu nasil acikliyorsunuz? Ozellikle
> ilkokula giden cocuklarin o yastan sonra isim degistirmeye zorlanmasina
> ne diyorsunuz? Ne ise yarayor sizin madde 10?
> Guzel aksesuar ha?
>

Hmmmm

> Hanife

[hanife]

Sayin Botan,

Geciken cevabim icin ozur dilerim oncelikle.

Dediginiz cok dogru, kokusmusluk tamamen sarmis Turkiye'yi. Aslinda
temiz bir yaninin kaldiginida sanmiyorum Turkiye'nin. Turk halki ise
yillarca icinde yasadigi, degistiremedigi bu sistemin parcasi olmaya
basladi bile. Kisa yoldan kose donme hayalleri, rusvetcilik, moral
degerlerinin yok olusu, fuhusun inanilmaz artisi, uc-kagitcilik bunlarin
sonuclarindan bazilari. Bu cirkinlik icerisinde bazi insanlar kurtulusu
"din'de bazilari da 'devrim'de ariyor. Bu iki grubun da kendilerini
digerlerinden ayiran en buyuk ortak ozellikleri bu kokusmuslugun bir
parcasi olmak istememeleri. Diger istemediklerini iddia edenler ise
kendilerini kurtaracak bir 'mucize' bekliyorlar. Bu bekleme suresinde de
bilerek veya bilmeyerek bu sistemin parcasi oluyorlar. Onlar bu sistemin
parcasi oldukca da, bu kokusmusluktan kurtulmak zorlasiyor hatta
imkansizlasiyor. Kuskusuz bu sistemin parcasi olmus bir gruptan bunu
yikacak kisilerin cikacagini beklemek hayalcilik olur. O zaman kim
kurtarak Turkiye'yi sayin Botan, nereden getirtilecek bu insanlar? Hadi
bu insanlar bulunsa bile gucleri yetecek mi bu sistemi degistirmeye? Bu
sistem ne kadar kokusmus da olsa cok saglam oturmus. Oyle kolay kolay
disaridan kisisel mudaheleler ile sarsilacak gibi degil, tam tersine
kendisine karsi cikacak her kisiyi bogacak, oldurecek gucte. Bakin
Susurluk bu kokusmus sitemin, 'vurucu' gucunu aciga koydu. Uyusturucu
kacakciligindan, katillere kadar genis bir vurucu gucu var. Oyleki artik
tum devlete bunlar hakim olmus vaziyetteler. Bunlara uyum saglayamayan
hic kimse basa gelemez Turkiye'de. Bakin Cillere, onlarla birlikte
uyusturucuya karismadi mi? Ama beni asil ilgilendiren bu pisliklerin,
Kurt halkinin karsina cikarmalari bu katilleri. Bu katiller binlerce
Kurt aydinini iskenceler altinda oldurdu. Kurt halkinin belasi kesildi
bunlar. Bunlara karsi savas veren PKK'yi desteklemeyip de bu katilleri
mi destekleyecegim ? Olmaz oyle sey sayin Botan, ben halkimi tek tek
haince olduren, Kurt aydinimi mi dalindan koparan ve butun bunalarida
'vatanseverlik' adina yapanlari asla ve asla desteklemem. Bunlardan
kurtulmak icin parmagini bile oynatmayan, Kurt'ler le mucadele ediyorlar
diye bunlari vatansever kabul eden Turk halkida elbet zamani geldiginde
bunlardan bulacaktir cezasini.

Sayin Botan, boylesine pisligin icine boynuna kadar batmis bir devlete
guvenilmez. Boyle pislik icinde yuzen bir devlet ne Kurt halkina acir,
ne de merhamet duyar. Bunlar icin her yol mubahdir. Bakin bugun bir cok
Turk sol orgutleride bu pislikten cikisi PKK ile gordukleri icindir ki
PKK'ya destek vermeye basladilar. Boyle pislige batmis devletle baris
yapamazsiniz, arkasindaki gucler izin vermez buna. Bunlar birakin bize
azinlik haklarimizi vermeyi, yasama hakki bile vermez.

Sayin Botan ben bunlarin hepsinden kurtulus olarak tek guc PKK'yi
goruyorum. Aslinda garip ama bana gore Turk halkinin kurtulusu da
PKK'dan geciyor. Siz bu pislikten nasil cikilacagini dusunuyorsunuz? Kim
veya kimler kurtaracak Turkiye'yi? Ve kim biz Kurt'lere 70+ yildir
yapilamayani yapip haklarimizi verecektir? Bunu gercekten bilmek
isterim?

Sayin Botan, siz benim icin yazilanlara aldiris etmeyin. Ben hic
etmiyorum cunku. Onlar icin susturamadiklari sesi bogmak icin her turlu
yola basvurmak 'mubah'. Dedimya her kes kendi capinda o kokusmuluktan
payini almis vaziyette. Ama yazdiklariniz icin yine de tesekkurler.

Saygilar,

Hanife

[hanife]

Sayin Uzman,

Sayin Uzman, bir dil icin bakin bazi dergileri yayinlaniyor, bazi
yerlerde de sarkilari caliniyor diye "Kurtce'ye baski olmadigini' iddia
etmeniz sonucta 'dil' konusunda ki bilginizin az oldugunu ve 'bunlarin
bu ilkel diline bu kadari yeter de artar' gibi bir dusuncenizin oldugunu
ortaya koyuyor.Aslinda bu mantik Turkce'nin niye edebiyatta, sanatta ve
bilimde varlik gosteremeyen, 'zayif' bir dil olmaktan oteye
gidemediginide aciklar.Cunku bir dil sarki-turku soylemekten daha fazla
islere yarar. Sizin adinizi bahsettiginiz Welat veya baska Kurtce
yayinlarda, sarki-turkuden bahsettigi olcude acik kalir. Eger ciddi bir
yayin olarak gorevlerini yerine getirmeye kalkarlarsa, halka olup biteni
yazmaya calisirlarsa, gazeteleri bombalanir, gazetecileri oldurulur ve
bunlari dagitanlar ise dovulerek, sakat birakilir.

Ayrica "ta Ozal zamanindan" diyerek neyi kastettiginizi de anlamadim.
Ozal ta basindan beri mi bunlari serbest birakti zannediyorsunuz? Sayin
Uzman Kuzey Iraq'daki Kurt'lerin Turkiye sinirina gelmesi ile butun
gozlerin Kurt'lere ve Turkiye'ye cevrilecegini tahmin eden Ozal yukarida
bahsettiginiz seyleri serbest birakmistir. Ayni Ozal aslinda "Kurt'lerin
dunya kamuoyuna cikmasi ile birlikte Turkiye'nin Kurt azinliklar
politikasinin kesin kes degismesi gerektigini de dusunmus, ve hatta PKK
ile masaya oturulmasi gerektigine inanmis biridir. Ozal Kurt'lere otonom
verilmesinden yanaydi. Sizin gibi bir kac sarki turku ile durumu bir 70
yil daha idare ederiz mantigina sahip degildi.

Eger 'bu ilkel dilinizi gidin evinizde tarlanizda konusun, o size
yeterde artar' dediginiz icin tesekkur ve minnet bekliyorsaniz,
tesekkurler Sayin Uzman, comertliginiz, adaletiniz ve insanliginiz icin!

Hanife

[Erhan]

Sayin Uzman,

Soylediklerinizi bilmiyordum, ve bence guzel ve umutverici. Ama benim
goruslerim kendi tecrubelerimdem kaynaklariniyor. Bakiniz benim
yurtdisinda ve Turkiyedeki gorduklerim seyler soyle:
Kurt kelimesi duyuldugunda insanlar arkalarini ceviriyor.
(Guney-)Dogu'dan batikadi sehirlere goc edenler'e nerdeyse nefretle
bakiliyor, rahatimizi bozdular diye (ve kendilerini onlardan ayirmak
icin Istanbul'luklarini dereceyle belirtiyorlar : "ben 7 nesil
Istanbul'luyum"). Daha cok orneklekler verebilirim ama tablo acikta,
Kurt'lere asagilici bir gozle bakiliyor. (Bu PKK'nin varligindan
dolayi olabilir, ama bu yuzden yapiliyorsa o insanlar PKK'nin tuzagina
dusmusler, ve PKK gibi BOLUCU olmuslardir!)

Simdi benim anladigim kadariyle Turkiye'nin kanununa gore herkes
esittir. Ve gecenlerde politicilarimiz avrupayi ornek verdiler (su 8
yillik mecburi ogretim konusunda). Ama yurt disinda yasanlar bilir,
herkes esit degildir, farklidir ve o farklara saygi duyulur. Burda
ilkokullarda Turkce dersleri aldik, ve orta/lise okullarinda bu imkan
yine vardir. Yasadigim sehirde bir cami yaptirdik, belediye sehir
merkezinden bir arsayi hediye etti bize, sonra ezan okumasina bile
izin verdi. Dusunun, bir yabanci diyarda minareli bir Turk camisi ve
ezan sesleri....

Mantikli dusunelim, biz neden Kurt'lere baska devlet aratalim ?
Turkiye'yi herkesin mutlu yasayacagi bir ulke olsa daha iyi olmaz mi ?

Sonra, mantigi bir kenara atalim, INSANLIK ve VICDAN yokmu bizde ?
Arkadas benim vicdanim sizliyor.

Simdi, hanife hanim bana tesekkur etmisler bir onceki yazisinda, buna
gerek yok, ben kimsenin tesukkuru icin yazmiyorum, ben ulkemin guzel
bir yer olmasini istiyorum. (Elimden fazla birsey gelmiyor aslindaya,
ama bir koseye cekilip susmaktan iyidir.)

Biliyorum, boyle konusanlara 'vatan haini' deniyor. Fazla umrumda
degil artik. Ben vatan haini falan degilim, Turkiyede bir savas gibi
bir sey olsa, bu canimi Allah Allah bagira bagira vermekten
cekinirsem, serefsizim.

Saygilarimla,
Erhan

[Murat]

.......

> > > Ben hicbirsekilde kimsozkonusu olursa olsun, insan haklarinin
> > > cignenmesine tamamiyle karsiyim... Bunu yapan bircok zaman TC dir,
> > > dogru. Ve Kurtler doguda ezilmislerdir, haksizca katledilmislerdir,
> > > bunu
> > > TC yapmistir, dogru. Goruyorsunuzki ben dogruya dogru diyebiliyorum.

> > > Fakat asil nokta sudur; Ortada bir kavga sozkonusudur ve bu kavgada

> > > taraflarin her ikiside bir sekilde, kurallari cignemektedirler. Pkk
> > > yansitmaya calisdiginiz gibi, daha cok TC ye karsi defans amacli olan
> > > bir
> > > orgut degildir.

Peki ne yapiyor bu pkk?
bosaltilan 3000 koyun ne kadrini pkk bosaltti?
diyelim ki 2999 unu pkk bosaltti- peki simdi beli kirildigina gore , bu
koyluleri devlet neden koylerine geri yollamiyor?
Beli mi kirilmadi yoksa bu koylerin 2999 unu devlet mi bosaltti?
buna nmet bir cevap lazim.
oda suclu bu da suclu deyip nasretin hoca fikrasina mi cevirelim isi?
adamin fikralarini gulmek icin mi dusunmek icin mi okuduk!
elbette bir catisma yada bir problemde taraflarin biri ak bir kara
olmaz.
kimse bunun boyle oldugunu soylemez.
ancak problemin sonucuna degilde cikis nedenine bakarsaniz ortada pkk
yokken de TC nin ayni aymazliklari bogazimiza kadar gelmisti- simdi de
oyle- en ufak bir politika degisikliginin izleri yok, siz de kalkmis yok
pkk yok Tc diyorsunuz.
Botan bey-hanim once TC nin gozundeki mertegi cikaralim da sonra Pkk nin
gozundeki cople ugrasiriz.

.....

> > > Pkk kendisini TC ye hissetdirebilmeyi enbuyuk
> > > amacbilmistir, bununda nedeni ve asil olan tek nedeni Kurdistandir.

politika yapmaya soyunan bir orgut elbette kendini hissetirecektir.
caydirici olmanin ne anlama geldiginden haberdar misiniz?

> > > Sizinle Kurdistan olmalimi hic deginmek dahi istemiyorum

Deginin deginin ,
bir cekindiginiz, bir sikintiniz mi var?
pkk mi size sansur uyguluyor?

> fakat sonuc
> > > olarak bu kavgada insan haklari cignendigi anda iki tarafda haksiz
> > > durumdadir.

Insan haklari bu problemin en hasaas ve bir an once haledilmesi gereken
yanidir,
ancak tek yani degil, bunun otesinde bu problem siyasi ulusal bir
problemdir-

> TC kavgada haksiz degildir, fakat yaptigi yanlis icin
> > > hatalidir sadece. ki buda insan haklarini cignemesidir.

neymis bu TC yi hakli yapan gerekceler?
Uniter devleti savunma hakki- eternal bir hak mi?
Her on yila bir delik desik edilen ve delik desik edenleri (ORDU)
nerdeyse dokunulmaz mertebesine cikaran bir sistemin anayasasi mi.
Kendi kurumlari ve liderlerince bile takilmayan HUKUK u mu?

TC nin yaptigi kirimlari hakli cikarmaya calisan her kisi TC nin
yalagindan su iciyor demektir.
adi Botan degil Kurdistan da olsa bu boyledir.

> >
> > > Oncelikle sunu
> > > kabul edin, TC derken TC fasistdir deyipde atlamayin.

hayir TC fasitir deyip atmiyoruz-
TC fasittir deyip tutuyoruz.
Sen bize gozlerinin icine baka baka YALAN mi soylememizi istiyorsun?
Bu mu politika?
buysa bunun adi yalandir ve bu tur yalanlarla olusmus kulturler hic bir
problemi cozemezler.
TC de Kurdistan da ve kurtler icin fasit bir devlet aparati gibi
islemektedir.
TC turkler icin nispi demokratik aclimlar saglamaktadir, bu turklerin
istedigi gibi hareket eden kurtler icin de bir olcude gerceklesebilir
(henuz o bile gerceklesmis degil- bakin TC daha Kurt Vakfi gibi kulturel
faliyetleri yurutme amaciyla olusturulmaya calisilan ilimli kurtlere
bile goz actirmiyor-K:burkayin paralelindei parti bile rahat
calisamiyor- henuz
uslu kurtlere bile lolipop vermeye yanasmiyor- bu TC nin sicili ve
zihniyeti dir ve degismesi icin de iyice salanmasi gerekiyor)

>
> Sayin Hanife hanim, TC nin Kurt politikasi bir yana, bir de Enflasyon zam
> politikasi, yolsuzluk, peskes, yalancilik, sozunde durmama, yakinbir
> zamana kadar dini somurme politikasi, yazarlari sanatcilari sansurleme
> politikasi, bazilarini iceri tikma politikasi gibi vesaire politikalarida
> mevcutdur, bilirsiniz.

Bunlar hep birbiriyle iliskili seyler.

Simdik koca devleti basinda T.C. bukadar
> politikayi halkina yedirmeye kalkiyor hatda uyguluyorda, kimseler birsey
> yapamiyor bazilarida yapmiyor, budurumda Kurdude, Turkude, Aleviside
> vesaireside can cekismiyormu?

Pkk bunun aksini mi soyluyor?
siz hic pkk nin ne dedigini izlediniz mi kuzum?

>Aslinda Turkiyede politika heryonuyle cok
> cirkindir. Sokakdaki her vatandas haksizliklarin, dolandiricilarin,
> birtakim politikalarin kurbanidir. Diyorsunuzki bu hasta T.C. , hasta
> oldugunu kabullenmiyor, neyapalim, PKK olup bizde adam oldurelim,

Pkk adam oldurme orgutu degil.
PKK de tipki diger insanlardan olusan orgutler gibi kosullarin
bicimlenmesi ile bir suru sevabi ve gunahi olan bir orguttur.
ortada durup duruken frankestayn lar yaratmayalim,
bunun uzerine basipta "uslu edepli" tiplemeler cizmeyelim
sunu surasinda uc kisiyiz birbirimizi de biliriz.
insanligin ortak hastaliklari- herkeste ne kadar var sa pkk de de o
kadar var.
burda tartisilmasi gereken konu-
bu ozel problemde TC kabak gibi haksiz -PKK de hakli tarafin temsili
gucleridir.
her savas kirlidir ve her savasta bir suru gunahsizlar da olur.
PKK bu dunyada ne ilk ne de son ulusal kurtulus mucadelsi veren bir
orguttur.
PKK nin yontemleri de ne ilk ne de son kez basvurulan yontemlerdir.
TC nin bobur bobur boburlendigi Kuvayi-milliye harekati su yabancalari
ile
mi yapildi?
ANC sapan mi kullandi?
FKO naylon torba patlatarak mi bugunlere geldi?
ya siz bizi aptal saniyorsunuz yada siz aptal olmalisiniz, secim sizin!
Bu insanoglunun hastalikli sistemlerinin ne yazik ki anladigi dilde hep
"sidet" ogesi bulunuyor.
Bu herkes icin kotudur.
bu gercegin mucidi de PKK degildir.
Bu gercegin tiksindirici oldugu aciktir, ve bu tiksindirici sucun sanigi
savasin nedenlerinde yani TC nin yanlis bicimlenmis sisteminde yatar.
pkk nin gunahlari TC nin kiler yaninda culpa lewis tir.

> bizde
> insan hakki cigneyelim, Turkiyeyi bolelim, Kurde Kurdistan saglayalimda,
> en azindan kendimizi bu cileli hastanin yanindan uzaklastiralim...

PKK nin talepleri sizin muglak talepleriniz yaninda gayet net gorunuyor.
pkk ister taktik ister gercek anlamda olsun- bolunme isteginde
olmadigini soyluyor.
Kurtler Turkiyede kendi cikarlarina uygun bir yasam oldugunda neden
kendilerini bir maceraya atsinlar- bu karari pkk degil kurt halki
serbest iradesini dillendirebilecegi zaman verecektir.

> Diyorsunuzki, bu hasta T.C. umrumda hicmi hic degil,

tam tersi, pkk yayinlarinda turkiye ye olan ilgisini cok eskiden ve cok
sik vurguluyor.
bu yanlis dogru ayri bir konu, ama pkk nin soyledikleri bunlar.
basit kurt bireyler olarak bir cok kurdun de turkiye yi kendi cikarlari
kollandigi anda bir vatan gibi goreceginden benim kuskum yok.

ben Kurdu
> kurtarayimda, geride kalanda irkini one sursun, teror yaratsin, kendi
> haline, caresine baksinlar.

Bunu soyleyen kim?
SCT de yazan kurtlerin bence hepsi, Turkiye yi daha yasanir bir yer
halinde
gormeyi kalpten istiyorlar.
Tum olan bitene ragmen turk halkini da sistem den ayiriyor kurtler.
bu yapis yapis bir populizmle degil elbet- biz biliyoruz ki turk halki
da destekledigi hukumetler yoluyla islenen suclarin dolayli ortagi
olmustur. ancak bunun boyle olmasinda iki halkin gercek anlamda iletisim
kurmasina engel olunmasi yatmaktadir.
Bu nedenle sct gibi serbest ortamlar onemlidir- herkes etegindeki
taslari doksun- herkes kim ne diyor ne soyluyor olanca ciplakligi ile
gorsun ki- birbirini taniyor gibi yapmak yerine gercekten tanisin.
siz ise pkk ye yalan yanlis yakistirmalar yaparak bu iletisim bolmek
isteyenlerin yaratigi
Frankestay izlenimini pekistiriyorsunuz.
Pkk yi sevelim sevmeyelim- onun soylediklerine kulak vermek zorundayiz.
pkk nin yazdigi cizdigi soyledikleri artasinda Turkiye yi umursamama
degil tersine asiri derecede turkiye ve turkleri umursama var. en
azindan ben okudugum tum yayinlarinda bunu gozledim. siz de okuyun siz
de goreceksiniz.

Zaten Turkiyede 100% Turku cokda degil,
> herkezler bir gruba, sempati duyabilir, bir kulturu yasatma arzusu adi
> altina saklanip teror estirebilir. Yok Hanife hanim, bu - is - boyle -
> olmaz....... Kultur yasatmak terorle olmaz.

Bir kere teror ne ona karar verelim!
nedir teror sayin Botan?

>Vatani bolmeye calismak,
> hatda bolmek kulturunuze, kulturumuze birseyler kazandirmaz.

Vatn nedir?
vatan ustunde hep eziyet cektiginiz bir yer midir?
vatan nedir sayin botan?
once vatan i tanimlayalim?

sonra bolmek nedir?
bir vatan nasil bolunur?
kim boler?
nasil boler?
bunlari da yanitlayalim

Iste
> bunedenle, " PKK ya Kurt diyerek Kurtlerin itibarini zedeliyorsunuz "

PKK kurttur, kurtlerin de pkk den once bir kurusluk itibari yoktur.
pkk den once varligimizdan bile haberleri yoktu, genc kusaklarin.
Bizi sirkeci halinde hammalik yapan uc-bes pasakli herif olarak
gornelere cok rasladim.
Kurt olarak bes paralik bir itibarimiz yoktu sayin botan, bir kurt
olarak.

> diye yazmistim size. Turkiyeyi anlamamiz gerek Hanife hanim...

Turkiye yi anliyoruz
TC yi de anliyoruz.
ikisini de birbirinden ayiriyoruz.

> Turkiyeye
> el uzatmamiz gerek, ona dost olmamiz gerek.

kimse dusman olmadi, turkiye ye.
Ha siz sisteme dost olmamiz gerektigini oneriyorsaniz, kaba olacak ama
siz avcunuzu yalayin!

> Kardesligi politikalarin
> zedeleyemeyecegi noktalara tasimamiz, onu oylesine ortaya koymamiz
> gerekki, politikalar yaninda sonuk kalmali, ona boyun egmeli ve bizlerde
> gercekte ayni olan amacimiza ulasalim.

sittin sene bu denendi olmadi da , simdi olacak ha?
kimle Racer-Erol taifesi ile mi?
Onlarin bictigi don bana uymaz, size mubarek olsun.
Bu yapiskan kardeslik edebiyati da ne dosta ne dusmana inadirici
geliyor.
Kardeslik lakirdiyla olmaz, tas gibi pratik adimlar , ve hukuksal
korumayla olur.
Kardeslikmis!

>PKK yi sevmiyorum, ondan nefret
> ediyorum demeliyiz once...

halt etmisisin sen
Pkk yi onca konuda elestirsem bile bunu soylemeyi hic bir kurde onermem.
PKK, Kurtler eger kurd yada turk olmayi ozgur iradeleri ile secmek
istiyorlarsa ,
onlar icin sigortadir. sigorta nin sevilmesi yada nefert edilmesi
gerekmez.
Yanip kavrulmak istemiyorsak sigortamiz olmali.

> Turk milliyetciligininde Kurde kucak acmasi,
> fasizme kapisini kapatmasi gerek.

Bunu bizlere degil , turk tosuncuklarina soyleyin, ve "Kurd" nin yanina
da "ulusu" nu ekleyin bakalim kac metre ziplayacaklar.
Yoksa simdi moda oladu "KurT" lafini sakiz gibi cignemek.
Kurt te nasil bir kurt? Bu onlarin "kurt" u icin pek acik degil
(her halde kamran inan gibi turkten daha turk miliyetcisi veyahut.
Hikmet cetin
kendi kasabasi top atislari altinda cayir cayir yanarken, cecen lerin
derdiyle gerilen bir urkek tavsan gibi kurdu kastediyor olmalilar)

> Sonra politikacilarin yenilenmesi
> lazim... Ciller, Erbakan ve bunlardan beter digerlerinin gercekten
> vatandasi olup yasamayi arzuladiklari ulkelerine geri gonderilmeleri
> gerekmektedir.

olur.

> Turkiyede ekonominin kalkinmasi, egitimin cagdaslasmasi
> lazim...

lazim...

> Sayin hanife hanim, kini ve onyargiyi biraksaniz, kulturunuzu ve
> iyi niyetinizi asil dogru olan yonde odaklamaniz mumkun olucakdir...

Kini ve onyargiyi birkamalarini ona sahip olanlara onerin.
ben hanife nin yazilarinda ne kine ne de Turklere karsi bir onyargiya
rasladim.
Insanin elbette bazi onyargilari olacaktir, benim sizin ve hanifeninde
vardir muhakkak.
ancak hanifenin yazilarinda Turklere karsi ben onyargi goremiyorum.
Annesi turk olan bir kisinin annesine kin duymasi pek te mumkun
gorunmuyor.
ancak sizin yazilarinizda pkk yi izlemeden onun hakinda epey onyargili
oldugunuz izlenimi cikiyor.
TC yi izlemek gayet kolay- her gun onlarca gazete TV bu isi icin
elimizin altinda-
TC kendi yaptiklari ust uste konulunca bizim onu suclamamiza bile gerek
kalmaksizin
kokuyor- bunu soylemek icin ne on ne arka ne de yan yargiya gerek yok-
mal kendini
gosteriyor. Kin de ilmik ilmik pkk lilere karsi dokunmus.
o gerilla cesetlerinin -parcalanmis elbiseleri cikarilmis reesimleri de
kimin kin le hareket etiginin gorsel kanitlaridir. siz ogutunuz yanlis
adrese yoneltmisiniz. adresi kontrol edin ve elinizi de vicdaniniza
koyun.
murat

[Murat]

uzman wrote:

Mr. Uzman.
Cahillige zor tahammul ediliyor,
size zor zor tahammul ediliyor.
Bizim sabrimiz eyup peygamberinkinden de guclu,
Asagidaki yaziniza bir iki sey ekleyeyim de "Bir dile baski nasil olur"
onu
anlamaya calisin artik.

>
> Merhaba Erhan,
>
> Kürt kelimesinin Türkiye'de ta Özal zamanindan beri tabu olmadigini
> unutmayiniz. Ankara'da Selanik Caddesine gitsinler lütfen Kürtceye baski
> var dyien arkadaslar ve bir tane "Welat" alsinlar. Ben, Kürtce
> bilmedigim icin okuyamadim.

Peki bakin bakalim bu Welat kac kez toplatildi ve kac calisani su anda
iceride?
Alin bu Welat i elinize gidin Diyerbakir ya da Van da okumayi deneyin
bakalim;
basiniza neler gelecek-?
Bu welat gazetesi ve diger muhalif gazeteler neden ornegin Van ve
Hakkari de satilamiyor?
yoksa orda bu gazeteler ilgi yok ta Ankara selanik cadesinde mi var?

>Kürtce müzik yasak deme rahatligini
> göseteren arkadaslar da Ankara'da FM bandini bir tarasinlar, bazi
> istasyonlarda neredeyse sadece Kürtce müzik duyduklari zaman, umarim,
> iclerinde birazcik olsun, birazcik özelestiri yetisi varsa, en azindan
> "ben neler anlatmistim millete" der.

Kurtce muzuk Kurdistan da hala yasaktur. bu de facto boyle-
Diyelim ki Van Hakkari yolundasiniz ve Kelequm da ozel-tim- jandarma
yol aramasi yapiyor. eger kurtce kaset bulursa olacaklari siz tahayul
bile edemezsiniz.
ek bilgi olsun-kurtce sizin ankara daki fm bandindan once- diyarbekirde
, ustelikte askeri bir alan icinden siki korumada coktan radyo
yayinlarinda kullaniliyordu. Soz gazetesi nin sahibi- kriminal bir
sahis(bkz bu sahisla ilgili cumhuriyet gazetesinde 1996 da yayinlanan
yazi dizisi) tarafindan yurutulen bu faliyet neredeyse uc-dort yili
buluyor.
Devlet sizin kadar malumatsiz degil. cok buyuk bir nufusun sadece kurtce
bildiginden
haberdar ve bunlarin tum yasaklara ragmen kurtce kullanmak zorunda
oldugundan haberdar ve bunlara kendi propagasini ancak bu yolla
ulastirabilecegini biliyor.
bir bilgi daha- kurtcenin en fazla baski gordugu donemlerde bile bu
dilin sahipleri ve bu dilden baska bir dil bilmeyenler onu kullandilar.
hatta Van- Istanbul otobuslerinde bile 1980-82 doneminde her turlu
riski goze alip kurtce bant calan soforlerimiz de vardi. bunlarin
varligi ile kurtce ye yillardir yapilmis olan ve hala yapilan
markaj-baskilar yok anlamina mi geliyor?

Bir dilin nasil yasakli oldugunu anlamaniz icin illa size bu isin abc
sini mi yazmak gerek- anlayisiniz bu kadar sig mi?

Bir dilin her turlu kurumu rahatlikla calismiyorsa- uzerinde en ufak
bir psikolojik baski bile varsa o dil-
de facto yasakli bir dildir.
Biz dilimiz oyle iki uc kaset bir kac sayfalik ve surekli goz hapsindeki
gazetelerle degil-
tipki turkcenin sahip oldugu haklarla istiyoruz. bu sartlara ulasmak
icin gosterilen cabalarin onune cikan her engel o dilin yasakli
oldugunun isareti olarak algilanmalidir.
murat

[Murat]

Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

>
> > hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
>
> >Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
> > yerlerinden edilmistir.
>

> Hanife,
>
> Agzindan cikani kulagin duyuyor mu? "Moralist" ayaklari
> atip, sonra boyle bariz yalanlar yazmak edepsizligin ta kendisi
> degil mi?
>
> Mehmet,

sayin mehmet
Hanife yi duzeltmek bana dusmez ama , onun hosgorusune (eger varsa ;-))
siginarak
hakli uyarinizdan sonra bir duzeltme yapayim:
hanifenin verdigi ac ve sefil insan sayisi dupedus bir abartmadir,
dogrusu
3, 999 999, dur. duzeltir onun adina da rahatsizlik verdigimiz kiymetli
sensitif insancil turk camiasindan ozur dileriz. umarim bu mesaj sizi
tatmin etmistir sayin edeb timsali mehmet efendibey gardas!
murat

[Murat]

Erhan wrote:
>
> Sayin Uzman,
>
> Soylediklerinizi bilmiyordum, ve bence guzel ve umutverici. Ama benim
> goruslerim kendi tecrubelerimdem kaynaklariniyor. Bakiniz benim
> yurtdisinda ve Turkiyedeki gorduklerim seyler soyle:
> Kurt kelimesi duyuldugunda insanlar arkalarini ceviriyor.
> (Guney-)Dogu'dan batikadi sehirlere goc edenler'e nerdeyse nefretle
> bakiliyor, rahatimizi bozdular diye (ve kendilerini onlardan ayirmak
> icin Istanbul'luklarini dereceyle belirtiyorlar : "ben 7 nesil
> Istanbul'luyum"). Daha cok orneklekler verebilirim ama tablo acikta,
> Kurt'lere asagilici bir gozle bakiliyor. (Bu PKK'nin varligindan
> dolayi olabilir, ama bu yuzden yapiliyorsa o insanlar PKK'nin tuzagina
> dusmusler, ve PKK gibi BOLUCU olmuslardir!)

Sayin Erhan,
PKK nin gerekce gosterilmesi ile ilgili, size bir iki kaynagi okumanizi
salik vereyim.
Ornegin Ismail Besikci Cumhuriyet Halk Firkasi nin ve kadro hareketini
irdeledigi ve icinde asil kaynaklara da gidebileceginiz cok sayida
referansin bulundugu kitaba bir goz atmaniz yeter. TC ve onun 1920-40
larda tek ideolojik aparati olan CHF ve Kadro hareketinin ideologlarinin
Kurtleri nasil asagiladigini kendi satirlarinda ve ismail besikcinin
onlari suc ustu yakalayan sade ve carpici yorumlarinda bulacaksiniz.
Ornekler oylesine cok ki- bu kitaptan baslayarak insani tiksindirecek
coklukta bu tur zihniyetin turk toplumuna nasil yukaridan asagi zerk
edildigine dair bin bir belge yi amator bir ugrasla bile ulasmaniz
mumkun. gerekceler her zaman bulunuyor, uyduruluyor.

saygilar
murat

>
> Simdi benim anladigim kadariyle Turkiye'nin kanununa gore herkes
> esittir. Ve gecenlerde politicilarimiz avrupayi ornek verdiler (su 8
> yillik mecburi ogretim konusunda). Ama yurt disinda yasanlar bilir,
> herkes esit degildir, farklidir ve o farklara saygi duyulur. Burda
> ilkokullarda Turkce dersleri aldik, ve orta/lise okullarinda bu imkan
> yine vardir. Yasadigim sehirde bir cami yaptirdik, belediye sehir
> merkezinden bir arsayi hediye etti bize, sonra ezan okumasina bile
> izin verdi. Dusunun, bir yabanci diyarda minareli bir Turk camisi ve
> ezan sesleri....
>
> Mantikli dusunelim, biz neden Kurt'lere baska devlet aratalim ?
> Turkiye'yi herkesin mutlu yasayacagi bir ulke olsa daha iyi olmaz mi ?
>
> Sonra, mantigi bir kenara atalim, INSANLIK ve VICDAN yokmu bizde ?
> Arkadas benim vicdanim sizliyor.
>
> Simdi, hanife hanim bana tesekkur etmisler bir onceki yazisinda, buna
> gerek yok, ben kimsenin tesukkuru icin yazmiyorum, ben ulkemin guzel
> bir yer olmasini istiyorum. (Elimden fazla birsey gelmiyor aslindaya,
> ama bir koseye cekilip susmaktan iyidir.)
>
> Biliyorum, boyle konusanlara 'vatan haini' deniyor. Fazla umrumda
> degil artik. Ben vatan haini falan degilim, Turkiyede bir savas gibi
> bir sey olsa, bu canimi Allah Allah bagira bagira vermekten
> cekinirsem, serefsizim.
>
> Saygilarimla,
> Erhan
>
> >uzman wrote:
> >

> >> Merhaba Erhan,
> >>
> >> Kürt kelimesinin Türkiye'de ta Özal zamanindan beri tabu olmadigini
> >> unutmayiniz. Ankara'da Selanik Caddesine gitsinler lütfen Kürtceye
> >> baski
> >> var dyien arkadaslar ve bir tane "Welat" alsinlar. Ben, Kürtce

> >> bilmedigim icin okuyamadim. Kürtce müzik yasak deme rahatligini

> >> göseteren arkadaslar da Ankara'da FM bandini bir tarasinlar, bazi
> >> istasyonlarda neredeyse sadece Kürtce müzik duyduklari zaman, umarim,
> >> iclerinde birazcik olsun, birazcik özelestiri yetisi varsa, en azindan
> >>
> >> "ben neler anlatmistim millete" der.
> >>

[uzman]

Bakiyorum sizler de isi "girgira" almaya baslamissiniz. Bazi kardesleriniz
kizmasin sonra ? Elbette, bu rakam tami tamina 4.000.000 olamaz. Hangi
kistaslara göre belirlenmis bakalim bu rakam ?

- Bu rakama Türk disdoktorlarinin gazabina ugrayan Kürtler dahil midir ?
Son belirlemelere göre bu sayi 1.367.989'dir.
- Trafik kazalarinda Türk kamyon ve otobüs soförleri tarafindan kiyilan
Kürtler bu sayiya dahil midir ?
Kamyon ve otobüs soförlerinin epece bir kisminin Kürt olmasi nedeniyle
Kürt soförler tarafindan magdur duruma düsürülen Türklerin durumu ne olacak
?
- Kürt "bölgesindeki" Kürt asilli karincalarin kaderi ne olacak ?
- GAP bölgesinde yetistirilen pamuklarin Istanbul'daki fabrikalara satisi
"dvaya ihanet"sayilacak midir ?

Bu can alici sorular nedeniyle mazlum Kürt camiasina verilen rahatsizlik
nedeniyle özür dilenir.

Murat wrote:

> Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
> >
> > > hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
> >

> > >Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
> > > yerlerinden edilmistir.
> >

[TOzturk]

WE HAVE SO MANY EMEMIES LIKE YOU. BUT SOME REASON WE ALWAYS FIND OUR SELF ON
THIS MAP.IF WE WANTED TO CONVERT EVERY NATION. OTOMAN SELCUK CONTROL. BIG
PART OF THE WORLD. THEY SHOUD BE SPEKING TURKIS AND THAIR RELIGION HAS TO BE
ISLAM.YOU SEE YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN. THEY ARE NOT ISLAM THEY HAVE THAIR OWEN
STATE NAME LIKE BULGARIA GRECE IRAN IRAK SYRIA .LIBYA .WE WERE NOT THAT BAD
AS YOU SAY. FATIHSULTAN MEHMET SAD 1453 IN ISTANBUL""I LIKE TO SEE MOSLEM IN
MOSQUE CHRISTIN IN CHURCH. HE WAS THE BIGEST POWER AT THAT TIME.LETS LOOK YOUR
KIND NEO NATZI HITLER ESAD ABDULLAH OCALAN HOW THEY THINK ABOUT JEWS CHRISTIN
AND ISLAM. YOU WILL NOT GET ANYWHERE IN THIS WORLD KILLING THE HUMAN.

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <3432AE...@alkymi.unit.no>, Murat <Mu...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
>Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
|>
|> > hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
|>

|> >Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
|> > yerlerinden edilmistir.
|>

|> Hanife,
|>
|> Agzindan cikani kulagin duyuyor mu? "Moralist" ayaklari
|> atip, sonra boyle bariz yalanlar yazmak edepsizligin ta kendisi
|> degil mi?
|>
|> Mehmet,
>sayin mehmet
>Hanife yi duzeltmek bana dusmez ama , onun hosgorusune (eger varsa ;-))
>siginarak
>hakli uyarinizdan sonra bir duzeltme yapayim:
>hanifenin verdigi ac ve sefil insan sayisi dupedus bir abartmadir,
>dogrusu
>3, 999 999, dur. duzeltir onun adina da rahatsizlik verdigimiz kiymetli
>sensitif insancil turk camiasindan ozur dileriz. umarim bu mesaj sizi
>tatmin etmistir sayin edeb timsali mehmet efendibey gardas!
>murat

Biri kalkip serefsizce yalanlarin arkasina siginarak ithamlarda
bulunuyor, sen ise aklin sira i$i piskinlige vurmaya calisiyorsun.
Ne diyeyim... Yalancilik ve iftiracilik ikinizinde paylastigi ortak
"kulturel" hasletlerinizden olmali...

Mehmet,

[hanife]

Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

Sayin cookkkkkkkkk serefliiiiiiiii Mehmet Bey,

Siz "boru mantigindan" ornekler vereceginize bir zahmet kutuphaneye
gidin de biraz okuyun, kaynaklar la dogru rakami verin. Bugun sizin
devletiniz bile 'koy bosaltmalarini' kabul ederken, siz halen bunu
redediyor oldugunuza gore sizin kendi haber kaynaklariniz var. Su
"dogrucu" haber kaynaklarinizin sonucunu bize de versenizde, bizim gibi
kendi haber kaynaklari olmayan Turk-Kurt kardeslerinizide mutlu etseniz
nasil olur acaba? Sahsen bence siz 'okumadan sallayan biri"siniz? Buda
sizi Turklerin paylastigi ortak ozellik. Politikacilarinizdan tutunda,
halkina kadar 'okumayi' sevmeyen baska bir millet bulunur mu acaba bu
dunyada? Bu arada baskalarini bu kadar kolaylikla 'serefsizlik'le
suclayan kisi serefsizlerle cok yasamis ve surekli onlari ailesinde,
cevresinde gormus bir kisidir. Uzgunum sizin adiniza!

Hanife

[Murat]

Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
>
> In article <3432AE...@alkymi.unit.no>, Murat <Mu...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
> >Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
> |>

> |> > hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
> |>
> |> >Bu politikanin sonucunda 4,000,000 civarinda Kurt ac, sefil
> |> > yerlerinden edilmistir.
> |>

> |> Hanife,
> |>
> |> Agzindan cikani kulagin duyuyor mu? "Moralist" ayaklari
> |> atip, sonra boyle bariz yalanlar yazmak edepsizligin ta kendisi
> |> degil mi?
> |>
> |> Mehmet,
> >sayin mehmet
> >Hanife yi duzeltmek bana dusmez ama , onun hosgorusune (eger varsa ;-))
> >siginarak
> >hakli uyarinizdan sonra bir duzeltme yapayim:
> >hanifenin verdigi ac ve sefil insan sayisi dupedus bir abartmadir,
> >dogrusu
> >3, 999 999, dur. duzeltir onun adina da rahatsizlik verdigimiz kiymetli
> >sensitif insancil turk camiasindan ozur dileriz. umarim bu mesaj sizi
> >tatmin etmistir sayin edeb timsali mehmet efendibey gardas!
> >murat
>

> Biri kalkip serefsizce yalanlarin arkasina siginarak ithamlarda
> bulunuyor, sen ise aklin sira i$i piskinlige vurmaya calisiyorsun.
> Ne diyeyim... Yalancilik ve iftiracilik ikinizinde paylastigi ortak
> "kulturel" hasletlerinizden olmali...
>
> Mehmet,

Sayin Mehmet Dogrucu davut
diyelim ki ben yalanciyim ve pur u pak cumhuriyetinize iftira atiyorum.
kabul!
peki siz hic bosaltilan binlerce koy lafi duymadiniz mi?
bunlarin sizin bildiginiz sayisi ne ?
bu koylerde yasayanlarin sayisi ne?
bu koyleri kim ve ne icin bosalti?
boslatilan koylerin sakinlerine ne gibi tazminatlar odendi?
Bunlar simdi nerde ve hangi kosullarda yasiyorlar?
Yayla yasagi nedir?
Bu yasakla etkilenen nufusun miktari nedir?
Bu ysak sonucu yaylaya gidemeyince insanlar sadece terlemekle mi
kaliyorlar?
"Dogu ve Guneydogu anadolu" dediginiz kurdistan da, koyunculuk ne
alemde?
Bu temel sektorden gecimini yapan kitleler ne alemde?
benim alilemi bilirmisiniz?
Bizim kasabadaki tum akrabalarimin su son uc-dort yil icinde kasabalari
bosaltilmadigi halde kasabayi neden terkedip Van- Adana ve Antalya ya
goc etigini- kimisinin Antalya da yapamayip-ser sefil olup tekrar van
geri geldigini bilrmisiniz?
Bunlarin onemli miktarinin 10-15 yil once kendi yaglari ile kavrulan
isleri gucleri ve suruleri olan insanlar oldugunu- oysa su anda
ekseriyetin Van da aylak aylak gezen issizler takimindan oldugunu,
evlerine giren yemek miktarinin - beslenmelerinin -huzurlarinin alt ust
oldugunu- bilirmisiniz?
Bunlar uzerine sizde bir istatistik varsa buyrun gecin- herkes bilsin
yararlansin.
bizim iftira ve yalanlarimiz da iyice ortaya ciksin.
haa bu durumuda basit hesaplarla su sayilar cikar ortaya : direk
bosaltilan koylerden gocertilenlerin tahmini sayisi (3000 koy carpi 1000
nufus= 3 milyon).
Bu koylerin bosaltilmasi ile bu koylulerin hayvanciligi su su busu ile
gecim saglayan kasabali ve diger koylulerin girdigi ekonomik krizden
dolayi yer degistirmesi, ve bu kitlenin tahmini sayisi: bunu da hadi
sizin gul hatiriniz icin onceki sayinin yarisi yapalim: 1. 5 milyon da
bu. Bunlar disinda bu coken ekonominin kentlerdeki yasayanlara
yansimasi ve bundan etkilenen nufusu da yarim milyon tahmin edersek
ortada 5 milyonluk bir kitlenin sefalete suruklendigini tahmin etmek
pek zor olmasa gerekir.
Bu alt ust oluslarda, sizin icin sct de bir tartismadan ibaret olan bu
sorun yuzunden bir suru cocugun , berbat kosullarda hastalanip oldugunu
soylesem acaba kacinci dereceden yalanci- ve iftiraci olurum?
size buyrun Istanbuldan Diyerbakira bir otobus bileti, gidin sefaleti
kendi gozunuzle gorun desem- bu daveti "cocukca" mi bulursunuz?
Ne yapalim da insanlarin ya kursun- bomba ile ya da yaratilmis bu
sefaletle oldugu bu cografyadaki felakete sizin dikatinizi cekelim?

simdi sizi dinleyelim bakalim, sizde anlatin!

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

In article <3432AD...@alkymi.unit.no>,

Sayin Murat bey,

Oncelikle belirteyim; siz benim tum iyi niyetimi, ve buraya aktardigim
gelecekle ilgili, gercek ve icten arzularimi yanlis algilamissiniz yada
anliyamayacak kadar korlesmissiniz. simdi gelelim o sevgili pkkniza...
Sayin Murat bey, surekli sistem, sistem deyip duruyorsunuz, sonra biz
sisteme karsiyiz, Turkiyeye, halka karsi degiliz diyorsunuz... Pkk
bugunku o icat etmemis oldugu fakat cokda guzel becerdigi cani teroru
yaratarak sisteme hangi yolla karsi koymaktadir sizce? Pkk benim ve her
Kurd bireyin sigortasidir diyorsunuz, Pkk Kurdun sigortasi degildir,
olamazda... Bu gun sevdigim bir arkadasimdan : "Kurtlerden pek
hoslanmiyorum..." sozunu isitme acisini duyuyorsam bunun tek nedeni,
sorumlusu pkk dir Murat bey... Pkk ne is yapar ? Pkk gider, halkin ugrak
oldugu bir bolgede bombayi birakir, artik o bomba patlarken ordan
gecicek olan benmiyim, senmisin yoksa kucaginda bebegi bir anne yada
yasli yada genc, hicmi hic onemli degil, kacar ve ertesi gunu zevki
dorukda haberleri bekler, ne halt etmisler gorsunler. Pkk nin Kurdleri
temsil etmesi olanaksizdir.... Pkk bunu tersine duyursa bile (sizin o
okudugunuz degerli yazilarda), bizler Turkiyede Kurd kulturunu asil
temsil eden yada temsil etmeye calisan, Turkiyeyi Turku ve diger
azinliklari ile refaha ve arzulanan noktaya kavusturmak icin asil savasi
verenler bunun tersini asla kabul edemeyiz. Asil savas cope bomba
birakip kacmakdan cok cok daha zordur Murat bey... Bizim asil savasimiz,
o size cozumu imkansiz gelen sistemi ulusca ve insanca yenme
sorumlulugumuz, sizin kine ve cahillige takili kalmis cirkin amaclar
gutmekte olan pkknin verdigi amacsiz, sonucsuz ve anlamsiz , kanli
oyundan cok daha yucedir... Istanbulda buyudum, okuluma gidip gelirken
Topkapiya vardikmi, o tum meydani inleten Kutce sarkilarin arasindan
gecer, ve benim gibi ordan gecen binlere, onbinlere bakincada hickimsede
duruma karsi bir rahatsizlik olsun farketmezdim. Gerci enbaslarda, bizim
evde onemli gunlerin yaratdigi misafir kargasalarinda evde herkezlerin
Kurtce konustuguna tanik olurken, ortada bu dili konusanlarin yasadiklari
memleketle sorunlari vardir diye aklimdan dahi gecmemistir. Doguda yasam
kotudur diye hep isitdigimde, yagmur yagmaz, hayvan otlatilmaz, devlet
zaten fakir, nedeni bu olmali diye dusunurdum... daha Pkk nedir
bilmezdim....bilmezde olaydim keske..... olmaz olaydi herbiri... Kurd
icin degil, dusmanin masasi olmus, beyinleri yikamis ve yikanmis, Turke,
Kurde herkeze eziyetin nedeni olmus, halen cirkef oyunlarla ayakda, halen
bebeklerin, cocuklarin katili, sizin gibi diger bircok Kurdun yalanci
umudu olmus, bir avuc kopuk, neydugu belirsizler olmaz olaydilar keske.
Kurd kani tasimaktan gurur duymama asla engel olamazlar artik, cunku onu
destekleyenlerin sizler gibi beyni yikanmis, gercekleri goremez kimseler
oldugunu biliyorum. Cartel gibi atesli ve fanatik bir gurup bile
sarkisinda yer veriyor " Turk, Kurt kardestir, bunlari ayiran kallestir"
diyor... Siz sisteme karsi ayaklariyla Turk dusmanligi guduyorsunuz.
Karsinizdakiler aptal insanlar degil Murat bey, Pkk yi desteklemekle,
Turk dusmanligi arasindaki iliskiyi biliyoruz sukur. Saygilarimla

Botan

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <34353BE6...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,
hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:

:Sayin cookkkkkkkkk serefliiiiiiiii Mehmet Bey,

:
:Siz "boru mantigindan" ornekler vereceginize bir zahmet kutuphaneye
:gidin de biraz okuyun, kaynaklar la dogru rakami verin. Bugun sizin

Bu ne dagalaklik! Rakami veren sensin.

Mehmet,

:devletiniz bile 'koy bosaltmalarini' kabul ederken, siz halen bunu

:
:

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <3434FD...@alkymi.unit.no>, Murat <Mu...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
>Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

.....

:Sayin Mehmet Dogrucu davut

Hala desteksiz atmaya devam ediyorsun. 3,000 koy rakamani nerden buldun?
Sonra koy basina 1000 nufusu?

Anlamadigim sey, neye guvenerek bu kadar bariz bir sekilde yalan
soyleyebiliyorsun? Kurtler icin yalan bu kadar ucuz mu? Verdigin rakamlar
en temel istasitiklerle celisiyor. Turkiye'de toplam 36,000 koy varken
guneydoguda nasil 3000 koy bosaltilabilir. Turkiye'de koylerin sadece
10%'nun nufusu 1,000 gecerken (ki bunlarin buyuk cogunlugu ege
ve akdeniz bolgesinde olmali) guneydoguda ortalama koy nufusunu
nasil 1000 kisi olarak alabilirsin.

Mehmet,

[Murat]

hala rakamlara takilip kaldiniz.
boslatilan koy sayisi 3 bin civarindadir ve bu sayi artik turk
gazetelerine bile yansidi. tersini idda eden TC nin verdigi sayiyi burya
gecer ve benim yalanimi tescil eder. bundan kimse de gocunmaz.
Koy basina 1000 nufus elbette garip, cunku benim hakkariden bildigim
akrak koyu (boslatilan) 1400 nufusluydu, diger boslatilan Kirvanis in
nufusu 1200 civarinda idi,
su anda iran sinirinda olan ve boslatilmasi eli kulaginda olan hozi de
300 kisi yasar.
bir de sayin rakam takintisi ni birakin. suna dikatinizi cekeyim:
hayvancilik cokunce koyleri askerle cokertmene de gerek kalmaz- koyler
kendi kendine boslamaya baslar-
benim bildigim kurt koylerinde cocuklar 5-6 yaslarina gelinceye kadar
nufusa bile kaydedilmez- hala hakkarinin hemen her koyunde bir suru
ihtiyar bile nufus kayidi olmaksizin yasarlar- sen bunlari gittte DIE
nin sari saman kagidindan sayfalarinda bul bakalim.

> Anlamadigim sey, neye guvenerek bu kadar bariz bir sekilde yalan
> soyleyebiliyorsun?

Birak ta bizim gunahimiz da yalan -abartma olsun-
sen ortmeye ugrastigin gunahlara ve boylece sahip oldugun pisliklere
bak.

> Kurtler icin yalan bu kadar ucuz mu?

Buna da sen karar ver!

>Verdigin rakamlar
> en temel istasitiklerle celisiyor.

senin o temel istatistiklerin benim dogugum buyudugum kasabamda % 30 u
nu ana dili kurtce olarak gosteriyor du- o da ana dili kurtce
istatistigini derlemenin yasaklanmadigi zamanlarda- kasabadaki memur ve
saker takimi disinda ortada tek turk yokken- bu % 70 ana dili turkce
olan kisi yi peydahlatan- kurtleri yok sayan TEMEL istatistiklerin sana
mubarek olsun- sen onlara inanmaya devam et.

>Turkiye'de toplam 36,000 koy varken
> guneydoguda nasil 3000 koy bosaltilabilir.

Guney dogu diyerek kendi tanimladiginiz bolgeleride tanimiyorsunuz:
acin bakin bakalim haritalariniza- Guney dogu anadolu bolgesine Van-
Bitlis, hakkari- Bingol-Mus -Tunceli- Erzurum- Agri- giriyor mu girmiyor
mu?
kurt nufusu yaklasik % 20-25 olarak kabul edersek bu 13-17 milyon
ediyor-
bunun % 40 koylerde yasiyor diyelim 5 ila 7 milyon nufus kirsal alanda
yasiyor demektir.
Bunlar en konservatif tahminler. benim ortalam koy nufusuna bu sayiyi
bolersek 5000-7 bin koy eder- 500 e bolersek 10-14 bin koy eder- sec
begen al.
tek bir kurt koyunun zorla bosaltilmasi bile benim burda senin kafani
utlememi mesru kilar. bu da benim takintim.

>Turkiye'de koylerin sadece
> 10%'nun nufusu 1,000 gecerken (ki bunlarin buyuk cogunlugu ege
> ve akdeniz bolgesinde olmali)

sen o istatistikleri bir daha gozden gecir.
ikincisi kurdistan da bir suru mezra hep birden tek koy adi ile anilir-
sakin kucuk mezralari birer koy saydigimizi sanmayin-

guneydoguda ortalama koy nufusunu
> nasil 1000 kisi olarak alabilirsin.

500 olsun
400 olsun- rakamlar hala urkutucu-
ayiptir- hadi diyelim kurt konusunda gozleriniz kor-vicdaniniz kuru-
kardesim Kucuk prensi de okuyupta sadece rakamlara takilmanin pek hos
olmadigini da mi kavrayamadiniz?
diyelim ki bosaltilan koylerin sayisi 100- yerinden edilen kurtlerin
sayisi da
200 , ne yani bu yenilir yutulur bir durum mu olacakti?

>
> Mehmet,

[Azadi97]

Who am I ?
By Cegerxwin

Who am I, you ask ? The kurd of Kurdistan,
a lively volcano,
fire and dynamite
in the face of enemy.
When furious,
I shake the mountains,
the sparks of my anger
are death to my foes.
Who am I ?

I am in the east,
forts and castles
towns and hamlets,
rouks and boulders,
What itony, what a shameful day !
A slave I am now for blood suckers
Yet I saved the Middle East
from the Romans and the crusaders.
Who am I ?

Ask the Near East,
Ask the Middle East,
villages and towns,
plains and deserts.
They were once all mine
when by war and knowledge
I defeated rivals
to become crowned over an empire
stretching to the borders of India.
Who am I ?

I am the proud Kurd,
the enemies' enemy,
the friend of peace-loving ones.
I am of noble race,
not wild as they claim.
My mighty ancestors
were free people.
Like them is want to be free
and that is why I fight
for the enemy won't leave in peace
and I don't want to be forever oppressed.
Who am I ?

I shall free my land
from the tyrants;
from the crrupt Shah,
the Turkish juntas
so we may live free
like other nations,
so my gardens and meadows
are mine again;
So I can join the struggle
for the good of mankind.
Who am I ?

It was I who defeated
Richard the Lionheart
My own blood I shed
ti defend these regions.
A thorn I was in my enemies' side;
in my shadow lived the Turk and Persian;
many a king held my horse's head.
Yes I am the warrior,
I am Saladin,
the King of Egypt, Syria and Palestine.
Who am I ?

I am Ardashir,
I am Noshi Rawan.
In the acient days
rivals feared my caesars
regretted my animosity.
I knew no fright;
in love with adventure;
from India to Greece
they paid me tribute.
Who am I ?

Yes , I am the Kurd,
the Kurd of Kurdistan
who is poor and oppressed today.
My castles and forts
are now demolished;
my name and my fame'
swindled by my assailants,
those who set germs intomy body
to paralize my existence
making a nameless soul of me;
a nation with no friends.
Who am I ?

I am the one who despite it all
remains the unyielding Kurd;
still formidable to the enemy.
The smell of dynamite is again in my nostrils
and in my heart the strong desire to erupt.
I am the fighting valiant of mountains
who is not in love with death
but for the sake of life and freedom
he sacrifices himself
so that the land of his ancestors,
the invincible Medes;
his beloved Kurdistan , may become unchained.
Who am I ?

One of my ancestors was the Blacksmith Kawa
who slayed Dahak, the notorious tyrant
to break off chains from Kurdish shoulders
and save many heads from the sword and death.
The day his vicious reign ended
was called NEWROZ, the New Day.
When Newroz comes winter departs
taking with it the dark harsh times
to make place for light and warmth.
This is the time, as Zoroaster says,
the evil spirit Ahriman is defeated
at the hand of Ormazd, the god of wisdom and light.
Who am I ?

I am the maker of Newroz;
again I shall become my own master,
the ruler of my land
so I may enjoy the fruits of my orchards,
relish the sacred wines of my vineyards
and put an end to a dark era
by seeking salvation in knowledge and science;
I shall make another new day
and breathe the pure air of the liberty.
Who am I ?

I am Kordokh, the good old Khaldew;
I am Mitan; Nayri and Sobar;
the son of Lo Lo ; Kardok and Kodi;
I am the Mede , the Gosh , Hori and Gudi;
I am the Kurmanc, Kelhor; Lor and Gor;
yes , I have always been and remain the Kurd.
Despite centuries of suppression
in a country by force divided.
Who am I ?

I am the son of Lor, Kelhor and Kurmanc
who have lost crown and reign
to become powerless,
betrayed in the name of religion
to carry rosaries in their hands
duped by the rulers,
deprived of might and wealth,
fighting each other, divided and torn
while my oppressed Kurdistan,
my wretched Kurdistan
remains prossessed.
Who am I ?

The son of the Kurdish nation
awaken from deep sleep,
marching forward,
proud as a lion
wanting the whole world to know;
I shall struggle
and continue the path to freedom;
I shall learn from great men,
Like Marx and Lenin.
I make a vow to my ancestors,
to Salar, Shergo and Deysem,
that this of mine
will remain vigorous, unyielding, stronger than death.
Let it be kown;
I announce with no fear;
Liberty is my goal;
I shall advance in this path.
Who am I ?

I am not blood thirsty;
no, I adore peace.
Noble were my ancestors;
sincere are my leaders,
We don't ask for war but demand equality
but our enemies are the ones who betray and lie.
Friendship I seek and offer my hands
to all friendy nations.
Long live Kurdistan;
death to the oppressor !!!

Poet : Cegerxwin

BIJI KURD U KURDISTAN
MERG BO DUJMENAN
KURDISTAN YAN NAMAN

[hanife]

Sayin Botan,

Sizce TC'nin yaptigi hatalari fazlaca kucumsemiyor musunuz? Buna karsin
PKK'nin yaptigi hatalari da fazlaca abartmiyor musunuz? TC ve PKK'yi
yargiladiginiz kantarin dozu TC lehine isliyor hep. PKK teror orgutudur
diyorsunuz ve ornek olarak da 'masum insanlari' oldurmesini
gosteriyorsunuz. PKK'nin masum insanlari oldurdugunu inkar etmiyoruz
biz. Bu masum insanlarin olmesi PKK'nin teror orgutu olmasini
sagliyorda, nasil TC nin teror devleti olmasini saglayamiyor onu
anlamiyorum ben? Bugun TC'nin masum Kurt insanini, aydinini, kahpece,
zindanlarda, iskence altinda, faili mechul denilen ama faili bal gibide
bilinen cinayetlerle oldurdugu uluslarasi tum kuruluslarca
belirlenmisken, siz nasil oluyorda PKK icin calistirdiginiz mekanizma
sistemini TC icin calistirmiyorsunuz? Neden? Cunku TC bomba
yerlestirmiyor ve sizi hedef almiyor oyle mi? Peki hedef aldigi kisiler
kimler? Devletin 'supheli' gordugu insanlar. Demekki sizce bir insanin
'suphe' altinda olmasi onun olumu hakettigi anlamina geliyorki o
insanlari masum saymiyor ve TC'nin yaptigini sadece 'hata' olarak
niteliyorsunuz. Sayin Botan, ne onemli ? olen insanlarin masum olup
olmamasimi yoksa oldurulme bicimi mi ? Bana gore TC vatandasinin
haklarini, en basta da yasam hakkini korumakla gorevliyken, bizzat
kendisi bu hakki vatandasinin elinden aliyorsa bana gore bu TC'yi daha
fazla terorist yapar. Kaldiki sizin o sadece 'hata' yapan TC'niz bu
hatalarini finase edebilmek icin uyusturucu kacakciligindan tutunda
kirallik katillerinden olusan kontra-gerilla eylemlerine kadar her seye
basvurmaktadir. Bugun Avrupa uyusturucu piyasasinin %75'nin, Ingiltere
piyasisinin ise %90'inini TC'nin elinde tuttugunu herkes biliyorken
sizin halen onlar hata yapiyor demenizi benim anlamam mumkun degil.
Sayin Botan ne cabuk unuttunuz Susurluk olayini? Abdullah Catli gibi 7
kisiyi oldurmus (1978), uluslarasi uyusturucu kacakcisi bir adamin,
yesil pasaport tasidigini, Bu pasaportun bizzat Mehmet Agar (zamanin
icicsleri bakani) tarafindan imzalandigini defalarca yurt disina cikip
cikip girdigini ne cabuk unuttunuz? Hic mi kendinize sormadiniz Icisleri
bakaninin ne isi var boyle bir katille diye? Yada nasil oluyorda bu
kadar pisligin icinden herkesin aklandigini sormuyorsunuz kendinize? Ve
en onemlisi Sayin Botan, nasil oluyorda bunlara halen 'hata'
diyebiliyorsunuz? Sizin teraziniz inanilmaz derece de bozuk Sayin
Botan. Bu kadar hata ust uste gelirse o 'hata' hata olmaktan cikar artik
!

Peki sorarim size nedir PKK'yi gercekten teror orgutu yapan? Bana masum
insanlar hikayesini soylemeyin. Cunku siz bizzat kendiniz uymuyorsunuz o
tarifinize TC soz konusu iken. Kurdistan'i istiyor olmasi mi? PKK su
kosullarda benim bildigim kadar boyle bir sey soylemiyor. Onun icin bu
konuyu PKK adina tartismak su anda anlamsiz. Ama ben istiyorum Sayin
Botan! Bunun neresi cirkin? Ben gecmis bir savasla suni olarak bolunerek
4 ayri devlet sinirlari icerisinde yasamaya mahkum edilmis 'somurge'
yapilmis bir milletin uyesiyim. Tekrar biraraya gelmeyi istemek neden
cirkin olsun? Bunu istemek insan olarak benim hakkim! Somurge bir millet
olarak istemek de Birlesmis Milletler'e gore en dogal hakkimiz
!(Self-Determination Rule). Siz nicin bunu bile bize cok goruyorsunuz?

Sayin Botan PKK'yi destekler veya desteklemezsiniz o sizin bileceginiz
sey. Buna saygi duyarim. PKK politik bir orguttur. Seversiniz veya
sevmezsiniz. Daha oncede belirttigim gibi onemli olan Kurt halkinin
yaninda olmanizdir. Ama TC'nin bu dunyanin en mazlum halkina
yaptiklarini sadece 'hata' olarak niteleyerek bunu yaptiginizi iddia
edemezsiniz. PKK'yi tarttiginiz kantara aynen TC'yi de oturtmaniz
gerekir. TC'ye taraf cikmaniz Kurt halkinin yanin da olmadiginizin
gostergesidir.

Saygilarimla,

Hanife

P.S Arkadasinizin "Kurt'leri sevmiyorum" demesinin sucunu bizde aramak
yerine onun 'sevgisizliginde' aramayi dusundunuz mu hic?

[hanife]

Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

> Arada cok korkunc fark var. TC'nin kanunlari var, ve herkesin
> mahkemelerde hakkini arama sansi var. Ust mahkemler var, onun otesinde
>
> Avrupa Insan Haklari mahkemesine kadar yol var.
>
> Peki, PKK tarafindan magdur edilenlerin gidebilicegi neresi
> var? PKK'yi baglayan herhangi bir hukuk var mi?
>
> Mehmet,

Mehmet Bey,

Cok dogru devletin yasama ve yargi kurumlari gibi gucleri var.Fakat
devlet bu korkunc gucunu bugun cikardigi kanunlarla kendi yaptigi teroru
'yasallastirma' icin kullanmakla mesgul. Avrupa Insan Haklarinda mahkum
edile edile bir hal oldunuz zaten. Onlarinda yaptirim gucu yok. Sizin
bahsettiginiz mahkemeler ne yapti kontragerilla olayinda, Susurluk
olayinda? Ise yaramayan, aksesuar olarak kullandiginiz kurumlarinizi
bana 'yol' olarak gosteremezsiniz. Hic bir ise yaramadiklari sadece bu
son olaylarda degil, yillarca bilinen bir gercektir.

PKK'yi 'legal' yapabilseydiniz, insanlarin sikayet edebilecekleri legal
yerleri olurdu. Siz PKK'yi teror orgutu diye tanimlayip, tum legal
yollari kapatip, ustelik de PKK'nin hic bir yer tarafindan taninmamasi
icin elinizden geleni yaptiktan sonra bu soruya benim cevap vermemi
istemeniz oldukca ilginc. Insanlara o yollari siz kapadiginiza gore bu
cevabi da sizin vermeniz gerekir.

Hanife

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <343C3E74...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,

hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
>Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
>
|> Arada cok korkunc fark var. TC'nin kanunlari var, ve herkesin
|> mahkemelerde hakkini arama sansi var. Ust mahkemler var, onun otesinde
|>
|> Avrupa Insan Haklari mahkemesine kadar yol var.
|>
|> Peki, PKK tarafindan magdur edilenlerin gidebilicegi neresi
|> var? PKK'yi baglayan herhangi bir hukuk var mi?
|>
|> Mehmet,
>
>Mehmet Bey,
>
>Cok dogru devletin yasama ve yargi kurumlari gibi gucleri var.Fakat
>devlet bu korkunc gucunu bugun cikardigi kanunlarla kendi yaptigi teroru
>'yasallastirma' icin kullanmakla mesgul. Avrupa Insan Haklarinda mahkum
>edile edile bir hal oldunuz zaten. Onlarinda yaptirim gucu yok. Sizin
>bahsettiginiz mahkemeler ne yapti kontragerilla olayinda, Susurluk
>olayinda? Ise yaramayan, aksesuar olarak kullandiginiz kurumlarinizi
>bana 'yol' olarak gosteremezsiniz. Hic bir ise yaramadiklari sadece bu
>son olaylarda degil, yillarca bilinen bir gercektir.

Iyi de senin derdi ne? Neden su anda yasadigin ulkenin
(ABD) kanunlarina saygi gosteriyorsun da, ayni saygiyi TC'den
esirgiyorsun. Iran-Contra, S&L skandallari diz boyu olmusken,
CIA eroin ticareti yapan mafya babalarina kol kanat gererken,
neden hemen eline silahi kapip en yakin otoyola cikip kimlik
kontrolune baslamiyorsun? Yada en yakin ilkokula dalip uc dort
ogretmeni kursuna dizmiyorsun?

>PKK'yi 'legal' yapabilseydiniz, insanlarin sikayet edebilecekleri legal
>yerleri olurdu. Siz PKK'yi teror orgutu diye tanimlayip, tum legal
>yollari kapatip, ustelik de PKK'nin hic bir yer tarafindan taninmamasi
>icin elinizden geleni yaptiktan sonra bu soruya benim cevap vermemi
>istemeniz oldukca ilginc. Insanlara o yollari siz kapadiginiza gore bu
>cevabi da sizin vermeniz gerekir.

PKK nasil yasal olacak? Su ana kadar Guneydogu'da 300 kusur
ogretmen oldurmusler. PKK'nin ogretmen oldurme kriteri ne? Hangi
hukukun hangi maddesine gore PKK ogretmen olduruyor. Ogrenelim de
TC'nin kanunlarini ona gore degistirelim ki, PKK "yasal" bir sekilde
ogretmen oldurebilsin.

Mehmet,

>
>Hanife
>

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <343A4D...@alkymi.unit.no>, Murat <Mu...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
>Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

!! Hala desteksiz atmaya devam ediyorsun. 3,000 koy rakamani nerden buldun?
!! Sonra koy basina 1000 nufusu?
!
! hala rakamlara takilip kaldiniz.
! boslatilan koy sayisi 3 bin civarindadir ve bu sayi artik turk
!gazetelerine bile yansidi.

Kim saymis 3,000 koyu? Listesi nerede yayinlandi?

!tersini idda eden TC nin verdigi sayiyi burya
!gecer ve benim yalanimi tescil eder. bundan kimse de gocunmaz.

Bu da senin sakat mantiginin tipik gostergesi. Iddia kiminse
o buyursun delillerini ortaya koysun. Eger biri rakam veriyorsa
herhalde o rakam(lar)i bir sekilde hesaplamis olmasi gerekir.

Senin mantigla, yani simdi biri cikip benim dedem 300 yasinda
dese, baska biride, insanlar o kadar sene yasiyamaz diye itiraz etse, itiraz
edenin dedenin dogru yasini ispatlamasimi gerekir? Nasil insanlarin
300 sene yasamasi biyolojik olarak mumkun degilse, Turkiye'nin mevcut
demografik kosullarinda 3,000 koyun bosaltmis olmasi mumkun degil.
Bunu, buyuk ihtimalle kafan basmadigindan anliyamiyorsun. Fakat
bu senin sahsi sorunun.

! Koy basina 1000 nufus elbette garip, cunku benim hakkariden bildigim
!akrak koyu (boslatilan) 1400 nufusluydu, diger boslatilan Kirvanis in
!nufusu 1200 civarinda idi,
!su anda iran sinirinda olan ve boslatilmasi eli kulaginda olan hozi de
!300 kisi yasar.

Yazdiklarinin dogru oldugunu kabul etsek bile bu ne
3000 koyun bosaltidigina, ne de bosaltilan koylerde ortalama nufusun
1000 kisi olduguna delil teskil eder.

!bir de sayin rakam takintisi ni birakin. suna dikatinizi cekeyim:
!hayvancilik cokunce koyleri askerle cokertmene de gerek kalmaz- koyler
!kendi kendine boslamaya baslar-
!benim bildigim kurt koylerinde cocuklar 5-6 yaslarina gelinceye kadar
!nufusa bile kaydedilmez- hala hakkarinin hemen her koyunde bir suru
!ihtiyar bile nufus kayidi olmaksizin yasarlar- sen bunlari gittte DIE
!nin sari saman kagidindan sayfalarinda bul bakalim.
!
!
!
!! Anlamadigim sey, neye guvenerek bu kadar bariz bir sekilde yalan
!! soyleyebiliyorsun?
!
!Birak ta bizim gunahimiz da yalan -abartma olsun-
!sen ortmeye ugrastigin gunahlara ve boylece sahip oldugun pisliklere
!bak.
!
!! Kurtler icin yalan bu kadar ucuz mu?
!
!Buna da sen karar ver!
!
!!Verdigin rakamlar
!! en temel istasitiklerle celisiyor.
!
!senin o temel istatistiklerin benim dogugum buyudugum kasabamda % 30 u
!nu ana dili kurtce olarak gosteriyor du- o da ana dili kurtce
!istatistigini derlemenin yasaklanmadigi zamanlarda- kasabadaki memur ve
!saker takimi disinda ortada tek turk yokken- bu % 70 ana dili turkce
!olan kisi yi peydahlatan- kurtleri yok sayan TEMEL istatistiklerin sana
!mubarek olsun- sen onlara inanmaya devam et.

Hangi istatiskten bahsediyorsun? Kaynak verebilir misin?

!
!!Turkiye'de toplam 36,000 koy varken
!! guneydoguda nasil 3000 koy bosaltilabilir.
!
!Guney dogu diyerek kendi tanimladiginiz bolgeleride tanimiyorsunuz:
!acin bakin bakalim haritalariniza- Guney dogu anadolu bolgesine Van-
!Bitlis, hakkari- Bingol-Mus -Tunceli- Erzurum- Agri- giriyor mu girmiyor
!mu?
!kurt nufusu yaklasik % 20-25 olarak kabul edersek bu 13-17 milyon
!ediyor-
!bunun % 40 koylerde yasiyor diyelim 5 ila 7 milyon nufus kirsal alanda
!yasiyor demektir.
!Bunlar en konservatif tahminler. benim ortalam koy nufusuna bu sayiyi
!bolersek 5000-7 bin koy eder- 500 e bolersek 10-14 bin koy eder- sec
!begen al.
!tek bir kurt koyunun zorla bosaltilmasi bile benim burda senin kafani
!utlememi mesru kilar. bu da benim takintim.

Yukarida yazdiklarin anlama yeteneginin ne kadar kit oldugunun
bariz gostergesi. Turkiye'nin tamamini alarak neden hesaplama yapiyorsun.
13-17 milyon kisinin tamaminin koy bosaltma iddialarin oldugu
bolgelerde mi yasadigini iddia ediyorsun?

Mehmet,

!
!
!
!
!!Turkiye'de koylerin sadece
!! 10%'nun nufusu 1,000 gecerken (ki bunlarin buyuk cogunlugu ege
!! ve akdeniz bolgesinde olmali)
!
!sen o istatistikleri bir daha gozden gecir.
!ikincisi kurdistan da bir suru mezra hep birden tek koy adi ile anilir-
!sakin kucuk mezralari birer koy saydigimizi sanmayin-
!
!
!guneydoguda ortalama koy nufusunu
!! nasil 1000 kisi olarak alabilirsin.
! 500 olsun
!400 olsun- rakamlar hala urkutucu-
!ayiptir- hadi diyelim kurt konusunda gozleriniz kor-vicdaniniz kuru-
!kardesim Kucuk prensi de okuyupta sadece rakamlara takilmanin pek hos
!olmadigini da mi kavrayamadiniz?
!diyelim ki bosaltilan koylerin sayisi 100- yerinden edilen kurtlerin
!sayisi da
!200 , ne yani bu yenilir yutulur bir durum mu olacakti?
!
!!
!! Mehmet,

[Mehmet Gulsen]

In article <343C08C4...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,
hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:

:Sayin Botan,

:
:Sizce TC'nin yaptigi hatalari fazlaca kucumsemiyor musunuz? Buna karsin
:PKK'nin yaptigi hatalari da fazlaca abartmiyor musunuz? TC ve PKK'yi
:yargiladiginiz kantarin dozu TC lehine isliyor hep. PKK teror orgutudur
:diyorsunuz ve ornek olarak da 'masum insanlari' oldurmesini
:gosteriyorsunuz. PKK'nin masum insanlari oldurdugunu inkar etmiyoruz
:biz. Bu masum insanlarin olmesi PKK'nin teror orgutu olmasini
:sagliyorda, nasil TC nin teror devleti olmasini saglayamiyor onu
:anlamiyorum ben? Bugun TC'nin masum Kurt insanini, aydinini, kahpece,
:zindanlarda, iskence altinda, faili mechul denilen ama faili bal gibide
:bilinen cinayetlerle oldurdugu uluslarasi tum kuruluslarca
:belirlenmisken, siz nasil oluyorda PKK icin calistirdiginiz mekanizma
:sistemini TC icin calistirmiyorsunuz? Neden? Cunku TC bomba

Arada cok korkunc fark var. TC'nin kanunlari var, ve herkesin

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

Sayin Hanife hanim,

Oncelikle, Pkk nin bir teror orgutu oldugunu, TC dediginizinde dunyada
taninan, bilinen bir ulke konumunda oldugunu hatirlatirim. Pkk nin
kendine belirledigi emel dogrultusunda, hic bir siyasal ve kulturel
faliyet gostermedigini, amacina, bir teror orgutunun butun
karakteristiklerini ortaya koyan yoldan, yani; insan oldurerek, kanunlari
hirsizlik, kacakcilik vs. yontemlerle cigneyerekden gitdigini kabul
edelim. Hanife hanim halen neden anlamamakda direniyorsunuz...? Size en
icden Kurtlugumle yaziyorum, Pkk sizi, bizi temsil etmez. Pkk hem
yanlis hemde haksizdir ki Kurt halkinin haklarini savunma arayislarini
terorizmin golgesinde birakmis, hakkini dogru yollardan arayan Kurtlerede
onlerinde engel olmusdur... TC yi Kurde karsi politikalar gutme
zorumluluguna sevketmisdir... Aslinda bu orgut Turkiye dusmani
ulkelerinde masasi olarak, herzaman, Kurt toplumuna yararli degil, Turk
toplumuna oldugu kadar zararli olmus, dahasi Kurdu Kurde dusurmusdur...
(Bunun en buyuk kanidi sizin bana karsi olan tutumunuzdur...) Ben size
Kurt kulturune olan ozveriniz, sorunlarina olan duyarliliginizla ilgili
saygi duyarken, pkk ya olan ilginizden dolayi elestiriyorum, fakat siz
beni fanatik bir tutumla Kurtlukden dislamak istiyorsunuz... Sayin Hanife
hanim, Pkk yi destekleyerek aslinda Kurt toplumuna zarar verdiginizi
bilin. Size bunun icin tek neden veriyorum; Eger pkk, Turkiye halkinin
yaninda olan, insancil hak arayan, iki kulturu bolme degil, birlestirme
idealinde olan bir orgut olsa idi, inanin onu destekleyenlerin basinda
ben olurdum . Nevarki sizin gibilere uzulurken, Turk fasistlerine
kizarken ve solcu sagci diye soyunanlara acirken , cevremdeki aydin, once
INSAN diyebilen kulturun mutlulugunu yasiyorum... Siz ve arkadaslariniz
bu kulturu anlamak icin once icinde bulundugunuz kin ve onyargidan
kurtulmaniz dahasi biraz gidipde Turkiye sinirlari icinde yasamaniz
gerekmektedir. O andan sonra, Kurtlerin ne haksizliklara, nederece
ugradiklariyla, hangi Kurt aydinlarin, neden hapse girdigiyle, hangi
koylulerin nenedenle koylerini terketdigiyle ilgili, bundanda ote;
fanatikligin nerelerde, nasil dogduguyla, kimlerin fasizme yoneldigiyle
ilgili ve, haklarin kimler tarafindan, nasil savunulmasi, korunmasi vede
alinmasi gerekdigi konularinda daha genis ve dogru gorusler
edinebilirsiniz... Size basit bir cagrida bulunuyorum, gelin Kurt
haklarini Pkk dan bagimsiz arayalim, gelin Turkiyede Turk Kurt kardesligi
icin savasalim, gelin Turkiyeyi BUTUNUYLE refaha tasiyalim, ve gelin
insan haklarinin cignendigi noktada, cigneyen kim olursa olsun ondan
destegimizi cekelim... Size TC yi destekleyin demiyorum, hicbir zamanda
demedim, size TC yi olmasi gereken TC yapmak ugrunda cabalayin dedim...
Size o hasta TC yi ne oldurun nede oksayin , size onu iyilestirelim
dedim... Ve siz bana ne yazdiniz Hanife hanim? Asil sizin yazdiginiz bir
cozummu? Pkk tek yolmu kaldi size Hanife hanim? Bukadarmi acizsiniz
yoksa bukadarmi kor? Eger burda benimle tartisabiliyorsaniz, aciz
olmadiginiz ortada. Saygilarimla,

Botan

In article <343C08C4...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu>,
hanife <han...@frank.polymer.uakron.edu> wrote:
>

[Murat]

Mehmet Gulsen wrote:

>
> In article <343A4D...@alkymi.unit.no>, Murat <Mu...@alkymi.unit.no> wrote:
> >Mehmet Gulsen wrote:
>

> !! Hala desteksiz atmaya devam ediyorsun. 3,000 koy rakamani nerden buldun?
> !! Sonra koy basina 1000 nufusu?

Evet 3000 civarinda koy boslatilip-yikilip, yakilmistir. TC nin ex.
Basbakani yazdigi kitapta 2 498 koyun bosaltildigini yaziyor.
TC nin ex basbakani bunu uyduruyorsa, "demokratik" DGM leriniz ve
savcilariniz ve siz ondan gidin hesap sorun. Bu herif benim degil sizin
devletinizin
basbakaniydi.:
"
Refahyol Hükümeti dönemindeki
icraatlarını kitaplaştırdı. Erbakan'ın
icraatlarını içeren kitapta, başbakanlığı
döneminde, gündeme bile getirmekten
kaçındığı, Kürt köylerinin yakılarak
boşaltılmasına ilişkin itirafları da yer
alıyor. Buna göre, 1990-1996 yılları
arasında, OHAL kapsamında bulunan 11
ilde 2 bin 498 köyün tamamen boşaltıldığı
itiraf ediliyor. Boşaltılan ve yakılan 2 bin
498 köyden, 2 bin 8'inin geri dönüşünün
mümkün olmadığı, 292 köyün geri
dönüşünün zaman içinde olabileceği, 198 köy
ve mezranın ise geri dönüşünün sağlandığı
iddia ediliyor.
........

2 bin 498 köy ve mezra boşaltıldı

"Terör ve Güvenlik" başlığı altında ele
alınan Kürt köylerinin göçe tabi tutulması
bölümünde, OHAL kapsamında bulunan 11
ilde yapılan araştırmalar sonucunda
1990-1996 yılları arasında 2 bin 498 köy
ve mezranın boşaltıldığı itiraf ediliyor.
Resmen itiraf edilen bu sayıya, 1997
yılında boşaltılan-yakılan onlarca köy ile
aynı şekilde 1990-96 yılları arasında Ağrı,
Erzurum, Erzincan, Sıvas, Kars, Iğdır,
Ardahan, Elazığ, Malatya, Urfa, Antep,
Maraş ve Adıyaman illerinde
boşaltılan-yakılan yüzlerce köy dahil
edilmiyor.

Başbakanlık rakamları, boşaltılan-yakılan
köylerin sayısını 2 bin 498 olarak
gösterirken, İHD ve TİHV kaynaklarına
göre, OHAL dışındaki illerin ve 1997
yılında da boşaltılan-yakılan köylerin
eklenmesi durumunda bu sayının 3 bini
aşıyor.
........

> !bir de sayin rakam takintisi ni birakin. suna dikatinizi cekeyim:

> !hayvancilik cokunce koyleri askerle cokertmene de gerek kalmaz- koyler
> !kendi kendine boslamaya baslar-

> !benim bildigim kurt koylerinde cocuklar 5-6 yaslarina gelinceye kadar
> !nufusa bile kaydedilmez- hala hakkarinin hemen her koyunde bir suru
> !ihtiyar bile nufus kayidi olmaksizin yasarlar- sen bunlari gittte DIE
> !nin sari saman kagidindan sayfalarinda bul bakalim.
> !
> !
> !
> !! Anlamadigim sey, neye guvenerek bu kadar bariz bir sekilde yalan
> !! soyleyebiliyorsun?
> !
> !Birak ta bizim gunahimiz da yalan -abartma olsun-
> !sen ortmeye ugrastigin gunahlara ve boylece sahip oldugun pisliklere
> !bak.
> !
> !! Kurtler icin yalan bu kadar ucuz mu?

> !
> !Buna da sen karar ver!
> !
> !!Verdigin rakamlar
> !! en temel istasitiklerle celisiyor.
> !

> !senin o temel istatistiklerin benim dogugum buyudugum kasabamda % 30 u
> !nu ana dili kurtce olarak gosteriyor du- o da ana dili kurtce
> !istatistigini derlemenin yasaklanmadigi zamanlarda- kasabadaki memur ve
> !saker takimi disinda ortada tek turk yokken- bu % 70 ana dili turkce

> !olan kisi yi peydahlatan- kurtleri yok sayan TEMEL istatistiklerin sana
> !mubarek olsun- sen onlara inanmaya devam et.
>
>
> Hangi istatiskten bahsediyorsun? Kaynak verebilir misin?
>
> !

> !!Turkiye'de toplam 36,000 koy varken
> !! guneydoguda nasil 3000 koy bosaltilabilir.

> !diyelim ki bosaltilan koylerin sayisi 100- yerinden edilen kurtlerin
> !sayisi da
> !200 , ne yani bu yenilir yutulur bir durum mu olacakti?
> !
> !!
> !! Mehmet,

[Murat]

do...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> Sayin Hanife hanim,
>
> Oncelikle, Pkk nin bir teror orgutu oldugunu, TC dediginizinde dunyada
> taninan, bilinen bir ulke konumunda oldugunu hatirlatirim.

TC ile ilgili son 5 yilda cikan kitap-makale ve arastirmalara
bak, amnesty international ve Helsinki Wach raporlarina goz at - cahil
cahil konusma!

> Pkk nin
> kendine belirledigi emel dogrultusunda, hic bir siyasal

Pkk siyasi bir partidir.
ideolojisini begenilmeyebilinir,
yontemleri sizin hosunuza gitmeye bilir-
bu onun Kurdistanin (tum kurdistanin) en guclu
siyasi gucu oldugu gercegini degistirmez.

>ve kulturel
> faliyet gostermedigini,

siyasi partiler ne zamandan beri kulturel faliyet gosteriyor?
Kaldi ki pkk nin actigi yoldan kurt muhalefetinin buyuk cogunlugu,
kulturel faliyet gostermek icin bir suru bagimsiz kurum olusturdu.
bunlardan ulkemisde faliyet gosteren MKM ler cok aktif kulturel
faliyetler icindedir.
ustelik sadece Kuzey de degil Guney de de kulturel faliyet
gostermektedir.

Yine pkk nin onculugunu yaptigi, canlandirdigi kurt ulusal muhalefeti,
bu canlanmayla
bir araya gelerek MED-TV gibi bir bagimsiz TV istasyonu ile kurt halkina
hayatlarinda ilk kez kendi dillerinde haber, muzik, tartisma,
dokumanter, cocuk programi, film
seyrettirmis ve farkli goruslerdeki turk ve kurtleri bir araya getirerek
tartistirmis ve kurt ulusunun hep gaspedilmis haklarindan onemli birini;
haber ve bilgi alma hakkini ona saglamistir. yukaridaki satirlari yazmak
icin sizin gozleriniz kor olmali-
adam gibi "ben pkk nin ideolojisine ve metodlarina karsiyim, gerekcem de
su bu deyip elestireceginize, mesnetsiz camur atiyorsunuz- ne kanitiniz
var ortada ne de soyledikleriniz gerceklerle en ufak bicimde uyusuyor.
sizin gercek niyetiniz nedir?

> amacina, bir teror orgutunun butun
> karakteristiklerini ortaya koyan

neymis bir teror orgutunun butun"karaketersistikleri" ?

milyonluk bir halki yillarca yok saymak mi?
koylerini basina gecirip, coluk cocuk insanlari copluklere surmek mi?
legal siyasi partilerin buyuk oy coklugu ile secilimis parlementerlerini
hapsetmek mi?
"suclu" diyerek onlarca fikirini beyan etmis aydini, bilim adamini
hapislere sokmak mi?
"sucu sabit" bulunan orgut uyelerini hapislere attiktan sonra her turlu
iskenceyi uygulamak ve 1980-84 arasinda sirf diyarbekir cezaevinde bu
genclerden 44 unun olmesine yol acmak mi?
Bir zamanlar devlete bakanlik .milletvekiligi yapmis kurtlere
cezaevlerinde kasik kasik
bok yedirmek mi?
koylulereine bok yedirmek mi?
koruculuktan vaz gecen koyluleri capraz atesle ve lav silahlari ile
oldurup baska orgutlerin ustune atmak mi?
9 jandarma katili koy agasi Tahir Adiyaman gibi kriminalleri Korucu basi
yapip- milletin vergisi ile alinan savas helikopterlerini emrine tahsis
etmek mi?
yine ayni Tahir adiyaman guruhunun kolece savundugunuz tabani ve tavani
delik desik devletin adliyesine saldirip adi suc islemis adamini
"devletin" evinden silah zoruyla almasina goz yummak mi?
Eroinci M zeydan lara , S Bucak lara bu toprak agalarina devletin tum
imkanlarini-
sunmak mi?
susurluk mu?
Yuksekova cetesi mi?
albayindan dgm savcisina, adalet bakanindan, basbakanina kadar her
duzeyde devlet gorevlisinin eroin- silah kacakciligi- adam oldurme ve
kriminallere kimlik saglama gibi her turlu pis ise adinin karismasi mi?
sen ne diyorsun be herif?
sen once bokunu yemeye hazirlandigin bu pisligin adini dogru duzgun koy
sonra gel karsima cak cak et- botan mis,
su sectigi ada bak!
senin her yanin botan degil kup kurdistan olsa ne yazar!
sen tasmali bir koleden de asagiya dusumusun!
kole ve kopek bir mecburiyete katlanir, sen bu katlanisi mazohist bir
zevke donusturmusun!
sahibin bile senin kadar asagilik degil!
yikil be herif, cekil kivrim kivrim kivranacagin kosene-
yasa bir solucan gibi surune surune.
senin gibi solucanlar yuzunden degilmi bunca cektigimiz acilar!

yoldan, yani; insan oldurerek, kanunlari
> hirsizlik, kacakcilik vs. yontemlerle cigneyerekden gitdigini kabul
> edelim. Hanife hanim halen neden anlamamakda direniyorsunuz...? Size en
> icden Kurtlugumle yaziyorum,

en icten kurtluge bak,
kim takar senin kole kurtlugunu?

> Pkk sizi, bizi temsil etmez.

seni tabiki temsil etmez!
seni temsil eden agalar, korucu baslari hepsi mecliste.
kendinle baskalarini karsitirma!

Pkk hem
> yanlis hemde haksizdir ki Kurt halkinin haklarini savunma arayislarini
> terorizmin golgesinde birakmis,

Pkk bir cok konuda yanlis olabilir!
ama pkk kesinlikle haksiz degildir!
kurt halkini terorize eden de sirtini dayadigin devletindir!

> hakkini dogru yollardan arayan Kurtlerede
> onlerinde engel olmusdur...

nasil araniyormus bu "dogru yoldan" hak?
sanki biz kurt tarihini , uysaligi hic bilmiyoruz

> TC yi Kurde karsi politikalar gutme
> zorumluluguna sevketmisdir...

1920 lerde Kocgiri katliamin a da mi pkk nin kiskirtmasi yol acti (git
kitap oku be adam; hemde
onunde biat etigin el etek opmenin de otesinde kic yalayiciligi
mertebesine gonullu aday gorundugun devletinin imanli savunucusu
kemalist aziz Ugur Mumcunun kitabini oku, bak bakalim kocgiride bu TC
nin embriyo hali neler yapmis, kac koy yakmis)

seyh sait isyani da mi , pkk nin isi idi, isyan dan sonra kurtlere
yapilmayan kalmadi?

1930 larda agri dagi isyani nda Cumhuriyet gazetesinin utanmazca yazdigi
binlerce koylunun katliami da pkk yuzunden mi oldu ?
1935 lerde Dersim.
1940 larda sason
tum bu isyanlar neye isyan di?
pkk mi yapti?
tum kirimlarin gerekcesi pkk miydi?
sen once kasarli zir cahilligini bir gider de gel karsima-
aksi halde senin bir oyana bir bu yana carparim, kolelik zihniyetini
besledigin o beynin iyice zedelenir- hadi yallah git once turklerin
yazdigi (senin migden kurtlerin yadigi kurt tarihini kaldirmaz) kurt
tarihini oku, sonra cik TC yi ve bu berbat gelenegi savun!

> Aslinda bu orgut Turkiye dusmani
> ulkelerinde masasi olarak, herzaman, Kurt toplumuna yararli degil, Turk
> toplumuna oldugu kadar zararli olmus, dahasi Kurdu Kurde dusurmusdur...

hadi hadi topla bu Tc nin zer zevatini; bunlar bayat argumanlar!
Kurdu kurde dusurmusmus:
ulan sen de kurtsun ben de Kurdum-
seninle cennette bile bir arada olmak istemem-
bu asagilik kole ruhu ile hic bir kosulda yan yana olmak istemem-
kimsenin beni sana dusurmesine gerek yok- sen kendin tiksintiye
layiksin.
git kosende yasa be adam!

> (Bunun en buyuk kanidi sizin bana karsi olan tutumunuzdur...)

senden tiksinmek icin ne apoya ne pkk ye hic gerek yok.

Ben size
> Kurt kulturune olan ozveriniz, sorunlarina olan duyarliliginizla ilgili
> saygi duyarken,

>pkk ya olan ilginizden dolayi elestiriyorum,

fakat siz
> beni fanatik bir tutumla Kurtlukden dislamak istiyorsunuz...

hanife boyle mi yapmis?
yok canim senin her yanin kurtoglu kurt de olsa farketmez.
senin de bir kurt olarak yasamaya kuskusuz hakkin var.
birakta benim de senden tiksinmeye hakim olsun!

Sayin Hanife
> hanim, Pkk yi destekleyerek aslinda Kurt toplumuna zarar verdiginizi
> bilin. Size bunun icin tek neden veriyorum; Eger pkk, Turkiye halkinin
> yaninda olan, insancil hak arayan, iki kulturu bolme degil, birlestirme
> idealinde olan bir orgut olsa idi, inanin onu destekleyenlerin basinda
> ben olurdum .

senin zihniyetindeki biri pkk yi destekledigi anda, ben pkk nin bir
numarali dusmani olacagim.
senin sorunun kurt- turk olmanda degil, senin temel sorunun
kolelige uygun bir ruhunun olmasi: bunu korumak senin hakkin,
senden tiksinmek te benim hakkim.

> Nevarki sizin gibilere uzulurken, Turk fasistlerine
> kizarken ve solcu sagci diye soyunanlara acirken , cevremdeki aydin, once
> INSAN diyebilen kulturun mutlulugunu yasiyorum...

sen bati afrikada olsaydin kole gemilerinde kolecilere karsi direnen
irkdaslarini kole tacirlerine gammazlardin.
sen guney afrika da olsaydin, beyazlarin "legal" gucune- yaltaklanir,
kapi araligindan sana uzatilan kuru ekmegi kemirmekten mutlu olurdun.
sen filistinde olsaydin, bir avuc topragi yahudi yerlesimcilere satip
iki kurus para almak icin filstinlilere ait topraklari, yahudilere pes
kes cekerdin,
sen insanim diyorsun, evet sen insan soyunun goruntude ayaklari uztunde
, ama zihniyette henuz homo eractus bile olamamis donemlerine aitsin;
sen oyle bir insansin; tiksinti ve bulantiya yol aciyorsun.

> Siz ve arkadaslariniz
> bu kulturu anlamak icin once icinde bulundugunuz kin ve onyargidan
> kurtulmaniz dahasi biraz gidipde Turkiye sinirlari icinde yasamaniz
> gerekmektedir.

zirva tevil goturmuyor!

O andan sonra, Kurtlerin ne haksizliklara, nederece
> ugradiklariyla, hangi Kurt aydinlarin, neden hapse girdigiyle, hangi
> koylulerin nenedenle koylerini terketdigiyle ilgili, bundanda ote;

bak , hem kel hem fodul diye buna denir!

> fanatikligin nerelerde, nasil dogduguyla, kimlerin fasizme yoneldigiyle
> ilgili ve, haklarin kimler tarafindan, nasil savunulmasi, korunmasi vede
> alinmasi gerekdigi konularinda daha genis ve dogru gorusler
> edinebilirsiniz...

eger sen bu "ogrenmenin" bir urunu isen, birak bizde bunlari
"ogrenmeyelim"

>Size basit bir cagrida bulunuyorum, gelin Kurt
> haklarini Pkk dan bagimsiz arayalim,

senin de bu hayali kucuk ali derneginin baskani yapalim!

> gelin Turkiyede Turk Kurt kardesligi
> icin savasalim,

Kardeslik icin mucadele ediliyor!
(bu lafla TC ve mustemilati o kadar oynadi ki, artik -kardeslik-
deyince:
bakyim bunun altinda ne yamuk var diyesim geliyor)
en iyisi soyle demek esit haklarda yasamak icin mucadele ediyoruz.
sen kolelige kardeslik diyorsan, baska kapiya!

>gelin Turkiyeyi BUTUNUYLE refaha tasiyalim,

haklarimizin tumu hukuki garantiler ile tanindigi zaman, cikarlarimiz
eger "iki ulus tek devlet" formulunde ise elbette butunlugu savunuruz.
yok "alevere dalever kurt memet nobete" olacaksa-
kulli mahfi$- olmaz bu i$

>ve gelin
> insan haklarinin cignendigi noktada, cigneyen kim olursa olsun ondan
> destegimizi cekelim...

Insan haklarinin "amasi" mamasi olmaz.
zaten biz bu konuda kimsenin gozunun yasina bakmiyoruz.
Pkk koy korucularina yonelik ilk yillardaki saldirilarinda,
tum aileyi katletmekle en buyuk kirimlari isledi, sen pkk nin bu
eylemlere neden son 5-6
yildir basvurmadigini saniyorsun?
insan oldurmek kirimdir- bu kosullarin olusmasina yol acan nedenler
oncelikle elestirilip- sonuclari ona gore degerlendirmek gerekir. yani
sizin once pasa pasa "TC uluslar arasi alanda taninan devletir felan
filan" yollu zirvanizi yalamaniz gerekir- once
70 kusur yillik kirimlari soyle yuksek sesle bir elstirin de sizin
endaminizi gorelim-
sonra pkk nin elstirisi de gelir elbet!

> Size TC yi destekleyin demiyorum, hicbir zamanda
> demedim, size TC yi olmasi gereken TC yapmak ugrunda cabalayin dedim...

Birde onu deyin!
siz destekliyorsunuz ya yeterli olmuyor mu?
"TC yi duzeltmek" bu pek muglak ve biraz da yalakalik kokan bir onerme.
burda adi "Pkk destekcisine" cikmis kisilerin yazilarini anlamaya
calisarak okumus olsaydiniz: bu kisilerin tekrar tekrar tum turk ve kurt
halkina ortak cikarlarinin daha iyi kollanabilecegi birlikte esit
yasama modeli onerildi- bu kurt halkinin dogal hakki olan "ayrilma
hakiki" nin unutulmasi anlamina da gelmiyor.
unutmayin birbirlerini seven ciftler icin de medeni kanunda eger bu
sevgi ve harmoni olaki bozulursa basvuracaklari "bosanma hakki"
mevcuttur.
onun icin gonullu birliktelikleri olusturmak icin IPOTEKLER-sarlar one
surulmez.

Sizin kah kole bir ruh, kah eyyamci bir nabza serbet havasinda
yaptiginiz suclamalar, onermeler yanlis adrese yoneltilmis- gercekten
esit bir birliktelik onunde ki kallavi engel sizin zirvalarla ortuk
olarak savundugunuz TC gelenegidir- sumuklubocek yumusakliginda
yaptiginiz onermeleri onlara sunun- sizi dinlerlerse bizi utandirmis
olurlar!
hodri meydan.

> Size o hasta TC yi ne oldurun nede oksayin , size onu iyilestirelim
> dedim...

gozyasartici!
sanki biz burda TC olsun-kahrolsun diye tek satir yazi yazmisiz!
sanki PKK TC yikilmali diye bir maddeyi programina almis!
sen once Pkk nin yayinlarini dikkatli incele,
bak orda goreceksin, pkk her yeni hukumete cagrida bulunup, bir sure de
taniyor,
pkk Tc nin saldirgan ordusuna bile tekrar tekrar cagirda bulunuyor!
pkk turkiyede muhattap ariyor, sen de kalkmis
"gelin TC yi sagaltalim" diyorsun!
olur sagaltalim da, once hastanin teshisinde anlaslaim:
size gore hasta hasta degil maasallah uluslar arasin taninmis bir tosun!
birde hastanin kendisinin kendini hasta diye kabul etmesi gerekiyor;
hastalik ayan beyan ortada olmasina ragmen hasta (TC) bir turlu
hastaligini kabul etmeyince, onu sagaltmak lokman hekimi bile asar!
siz en iyisi biraz daha okuyun ondan sonra gelin-
hem karsimda yipraniyorsunuz, hem benim vaktime yazik oluyor.
sonra bu olcude tiksinti yaratmaya hakiniz da yok!

> Ve siz bana ne yazdiniz Hanife hanim? Asil sizin yazdiginiz bir
> cozummu? Pkk tek yolmu kaldi size Hanife hanim?

pkk elbette tek yol degil!
HADEP var,
Serafetin Elcininpartisi (DKP mi ne: henuz galiba bir nevi fikir ve yan
cebime koy orgutu duzeyinde)
Kemal Burakayin Orgutu (bunun adini da bilmiyorum)
bunlar hep var!
kurtler de desteklerini ne olcude sunduklarini gorene gosteriyor.
hali hazirda kurt halki, tum risklere ragmen kimi destekliyor bir ona
bakalim-
sonra serbest propaganda ve secim hakimiz var mi bir de ona bakalim!
gorunen koye sizin gibi bir kilavuz gerekiyor mu?
hangi partiyi- yontemi secmek kurt halkinin isi.

biz ne yapabiliriz?
once serbest propaganda-iletisim hakimizi sokup almaliyiz
bunu onunde pkk degil TC engeli var.

[hanife]

uzman wrote:

> Hanife Hanim (Hanim sanirim)
>
> Bir dakikanizi ayirirsaniz sevinirim.
>

Sayin Uzman,

Size ayiracak her zaman vaktim var, neden olmasin?

> Israil'de iskence uygulamasi anayasa mahkemesince de onaylandi.
> Bilginize.
>

Dogrusu bunu bilmiyordum. Eger oyleyse ne buyuk 'utanc' onlar icin.
Iyiki Israel'li degilim.

> > Turk anayasasina gore 'iskence' de yasaktir ama
> > her yil yuzlerce insan iskence sirasinda oluyor.
>
> Amnesty bile yüzlerceden bahsetmiyor. Nasil ulastiniz bu rakama ? Hele
> hele
> Amnesty'nin raporlarinda bile son zamanlarda iskencede ölüm olaylarina
>
> rastlanamazken !
>
>

Sayin Uzman, benim kaynaklarima bakarsaniz cogu US-based Helsinki Watch
Reports'dur. Herhalde benim "Torture In Turkey" yazimi okumadiniz. Orada
her yil olenler icin rakamlar vermistim. O kismi alta aldim boylece
okuyabilirsiniz.

"The Human Rights Foundation of Turkey has determined that between
September 12, 1980 and September 12, 1995, 445 individuals died in
prison or in detention as a result of torture or police abuse [ File of
Torture : Death in Detention Places or Prisons, Ankara, Human Rights
Foundation of Turkey, March 1996, p.50-51]. The majority of those were
security detainees. Between 1991 and September 12, 1995, 124 individuals

died custody or in prison" [A Helsinki Watch Report, TURKEY Torture and
Mistreatment in Pre-trial Detention by Anti-Terror Police, March, 1997].

The Turkish Constitution prohibits torture and self-incrimination and
holds state actors responsible for their actions (Article 17, 38), but
at the same time allows for detention periods of up to 15 days, and
these periods can be extended during a state of emergency, under martial

law. (Article 19) Such lengthy periods of detention facilitate
maltreatment and torture.

Sayin Uzman, bir kisinin bile iskenceden olmesi ve iskencecinin
gerektigi sekilde cezalandirilmamis olmasi benim Turkiye'yi suclamam
icin yeterli bir nedendir. Ne demek istedigimi anliyormusunuz?

Iyi gunler Sayin Uzman

Hanife

[hanife]

Sayin Botan,

Benim artik size soyleyebilecek bir seyim kalmadi. Cunku siz bana TC'nin
propoganda sozlerini soylemekten oteye gitmiyorsunuz. hele hele bir cok
konuda Turk fasistelerinden farkli da dusunmuyorsunuz. Onlar hic degilse
karsi taraftalar, sizse Kurt'llerin yaninda oldugunuzu soyleye soyleye
Turk fasizmini destekliyorsunuz. Sayin Botan neden kendi halkinizla
ilgili bir seyler okumuyorsunuz? Boylece kulaktan duyma seyler
ogreneceginize ogrenin bakalim neler yasamis bu insanlar su 70+ yillik
TC suresinde. Kac tanesi oldurulmus, yok edilmis ve yerlerinden
surulmus. Sonrada okuyun bakalim Helsinki Watch reports'lari. Ki bu
Amerikan-dayanakli kaynaktir. Amerika'nin TC'yi destekledigini dusunerek
okuyun o yayinlari, gorun bakalim sizin TC'niz neler yapiyor gunumuzde.
Ve eger onlari okudugunuzda halen yurreginizde ofke, aci hissetmiyor ve
halen TC'yi destekliyorsaniz o zaman kendinize bir iyilik yapin "Kurt
degilim" deyin. Kurt olmak sadece 'kan' tasimakla olmuyor Sayin Botan,
bir secimdir o. Gorunen o ki siz o secimi 'yanlis' yapmissiniz. Fazla
okumadiginizi gordugum icin sozlerimi bir kitaptan alintiyla bitirmek
istiyorum.

" Bizim istedigimiz Turk halkiyla kardesce yasamak. Fakat sunu
dusunelim, acaba Turkiye halki kendi temsilcileriyle, kendi reyiyle bir
kardeslik istiyor mu? Yani, 'benim soyle ezik buzuk de olsa, zayif da
olsa, yuzsuz de olsa bir kardesim vardir' diyor mu? Demiyorsa, bu defa
boyle biri olduguna inanmali. Yoktur diyorsa; dogu olayi, surgun olayi
geriliktir diyen kim? Mahrumiyet bolgesidir, ocu gibi bakilan, korkulan
ve bunu hep diyen kimdir? Demekki, boyle geri biraktigi, cok deger
vermedigi bir kardesi vardir. Biz bu kardesi biraz savunma, biraz bende
varim deme durumundayiz. Ben de varim, benim de bu aile icinde bir takim
haklarim vardir dendiginde kizma, ofke oluyor. Gercekten binlerce yildir
yasamis, calismis, halen de kor topal yurumeye calisan biriyiz. Buna
sahip olmaliyiz. Turkiye halki buna saygili olmali ve eger kardesine bir
deger veriyorsa, buna kimlik hakkini, adini bile kendisine vermeyecek
kadar kucuk gormemeli. Turk diyorsa, hic olmazsa bir Turke yarasir
sekilde bakilmadigini herkes biliyor. Burada ikiyuzluluk
kaldirilmalidir. O sahte Turkluk teorileri Turklugu bulandiriyor. Turk
halkinin da guzellikleri olduguna eminim. Gercekten biz et ve tirnak
gibi Turk halkinin degerleriyle iciceyiz. ....Simdi Turk halki, durumu
kokten bir yoklamali. Her ne kadar kendi egemenleri tarafindan
kosullarilmis bir durumu yasiyorsa da bir kardesin uyarma durumu
gerceklesiyor ve hesap sormaya kalkiyor. Yanlis vuruyor, az vuruyor bu o
kadar onemli degil, bir isyan durumuna yoneliyor. Kurt halki Turk halki
kadar bu topraklar icin, bu vatan icin kan dokmustur. Istanbul'undan
tut, sinirina kadar ter dokmustur. Turkl halki bunlari gormek
durumundadir. Dolayisiyla, bu isyanin daha fazla kan dokulmeden ve adil
bir bicimde sonuclanmasini istiyorsa, oyle buyukluk kompleksine
tutulmadan aman ben soyle bolunurum de, parcalanirim da demeden kendini
uygarca bir tartismaya, sorunlari uygarca bir koymaya hazirlanmalidir.
Batida ki Turk halki bu konuda kendini gercekten gozden gecirmek
zorundadir. Ve gercekten biz cok mecbur oldugumuz icin, yalvardigimiz
icin degil, kendisinin esenligi, daha saglikli bir yasami icin bunu
yapmalidir. yapmasa, gene en cok kendi evlatlarini topraga verecektir.
... Orada oyle tek bir Anadolu cocugunun gitmesi bile gercekten aci
verici.. . Bunu onleyecek yol halkin kendisinin elindedir.

Biz Turkiye halkiyla halledemiyecegimiz bir meselemiz olmadigina
inaniriz. Halkin parlamentosu, halkin yonetimi, halkin yargisini,
halkin emniyetini paylasmak konusunda ozgur bir tartismaya sonuna kadar
variz. Ozgun bir meselenin halline sonuna kadar variz. ... Eger 'asariz,
keseriz' diyen politikalar gozden gecirilirse buzlar cozulmeye baslar...
Kendi topraginin, kendi tarihinin, kendi kulturunun yanina bile
yaklasamayan bir kimseye, kimse yasiyor demez. Kendi kimligini bile
soyleyemeyecek kadar insanliktan cikmis birisinin yasamdan bahsetmesi
soz konusu olamaz. Bize de atilan budur. Simdi bir keciye sen koyunsun,
illa sen koyun olacaksin denilse, keci kendi gercekligi icerisinde bunu
kabul etmez. Bize de dayatilan budur. Bu anlamsiz politikada israr,
buyuk tepkiye yol acacaktir.....Sorunlar uzerinde bir defa dusunme
cesareti gosterilmelidir. Adam muazzam okumus, akademilerden gecmis,
uluslararasi okullarda epey diploma almis ama, kendi gercegine bakmaktan
korkuyor.... Cozum tikandiginda celiskiler zorla halledilecektir.
Politik cozum zorla engellendiginde, biraz zor gelisecektir. Dahasi
gelisip gelismemesi bize bagli degildir. Cunku biz once zora basvuran
degiliz. Cunku biz once devlet degildik. Once elinde silah olan biz
degildik. ...Orgutsuz yakalamak, onlari zayif yakalamak, gunu geldiginde
ucuz kullanmak, gunu geldiginde yerle bir etmek insani bir politika
degildir..... "

Abdullah Ocalan

Mehmet Ali Brand, "Apo ve PKK", 1992, Milliyet Yayinlari, s.216-219.

[TOzturk]

iste sana ozgur tartisma .kacma ve acikla bir kurt kokenli Turgut Ozal nasil
once basbakan sonrada cumhurbaskani oldu. sayet senin idalarin doru ise. her
aslini inkar eden kurtler mevki sahibi olur dedigin dogru ise. sizin olsun
palavrasiyla degil. cagdas bir insan olarak acikla. iste sana ozgur tartisma
burada soyledigin aciklamadan size hicbir ozgursuzluk kimse getiremez . acikla
yalanla dolanla kacma kacaklik ta yapma
eger doru insansan acikla.

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

Sayin Hanife hanim, Gorunen o ki bir Kurdun Pkk hakkindeki olumsuz
fikirleri pek de hosunuza gitmedi. Hele hele Murat beyin kaba ve
kultursuzluk kokan yazisindan, sizlerde uyandirdigim ofkeyi fazlasiyla
anladim... Tartismanin budenli ofkeyle gecmesi hic hos degil, fakat
bunlari yinede saygiyla karsiliyorum.... Hanife hanim, durust olmak
gerekirse Kurt sorunuyla ilgili fazla okumus degilim, haklisiniz. Sadece
size kalabalik ve koklu bir Kurt ailesinden geldigim icin, tecrubelerime
dayanarak yazma tesebbusunde bulundum... Simdi diyeceksinizki neymis bu
koklu aile... Benim ailemin geldikleri yer Siirt'in Pervari ilcesidir,
babamda burda dogmusdur... Akrabalarimin yuzde doksani Kurtce konusur ve
Kurt kulturunu her yaniyla ortaya koyarlar... Aralarinda
Milletvekilinden ( gecmisde ), ogretmeninden tutunda koy korucusuna
kadar bir KURT olarak TURKIYEYE hizmet etmis olan kimseler mevcutdur...
Bunun yaninda koyumuze yapdigimiz hizmetlerde cok sayidadir. Sayin Hanife
hanim, ben yasadiklarimdan, gorduklerimden dolayi size hikaye
anlatmiyorum, zaten enbasindan tahmin etmisdimki yazdiklarim sizi
fazlasiyla rahatsiz edebilir, bunedenle edebiyatimi mumkun oldugunca
kibar bir dille ortaya koydum... Siz beni fasist bile yapdiniz, gulup
geciyorumda, asil ilgincime giden surekli beni anlamamakda direnisiniz.
Size TC nin yonetiminden, siyasetinden nedenli hoslanmadigimi defalarca
yazdim... TC nin bircok politikasini sevmedigimi belirtdim... Tek
anlasamadigimiz nokta Pkk nin konumu ve yaptiklari olmasi gerekirken, siz
olayi alakasiz yerlere cekmeye calisdiniz... "Pkk size tek caremi kaldi?"
sordum ve soruyorum... Benim siz Pkk yi destekleyen Kurtlerden ogrenmek
istedigim tek sey bu... Hadi bakalim, hodri meydan...

Saygilarimla
Botan
In article <3440FEB5...@frank.uakron.polymer.edu>,

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------

[hanife]

Sayin Botan,

Ben kesinlikle size PKK hakkinda ki dusuncelerinizden oturu kizmadim,
kizmam da. Her zaman dedigim gibi PKK politik bir orguttur ve her kes
onu secip secmeme hakkina sahiptir. Beni asil uzen taraf (dikkatinizi
cekerim kizdiran demiyorum) sizin TC'yi destekleyen tarafinizdir. Ben
bunu kabullenemedim. Murat'i cileden cikartan da bu oldu sanirim. sayin
Botan, eger ben Murat'la bundan 3 yil once yazisiyor olsaydim inanin
buna benzer seyleri bana yazacakti. Hemde eminim ayni dille yazacakti.
Sayin Botan bende yillarca PKK'yi desteklemedim. Ama bunlar tipki sizin
gibi kendi halkimla ilgili okumadigim donemlerdeydi. Ben hep Turklerle
birlikte yasadim, onlarla ayni etkilerle buyudum. Yani simdi insanlarin
dinlemiyorum diye bana kizdigi masallari zaten yillarca dinleyerek
buyudum. Bilmedigim tek sey ise gercekti. Ama gelin gorunki yuregimde
Kurt'lere olan sevgi her zaman vardi. Onlari cahilde bulsam, egitimsiz
de bulsam, inanilmaz derecede guzel insanlar olarak gordum. O yuzdendir
ki kendimi hep Kurt kabul etmisimdir. Ama bunlarin hic bir Kurd'u
anlamaya yetmiyor Sayin Botan. Bakin ben Turkiye'deyken yillarca Dersim
Isyanini merak ederdim. Okumak isterdim hep. Benim ilk okudugum
kitaplarda onlarla ilgilidir. Hatirliyorum defalarca kitabi birakmak
zorunda kalmistim. Kalbim dayanmiyordu okuduklarim karsisinda duydugum
aciya. Sayin Botan size okuyun dememin nedeni bu. PKK'yi okuyun
demiyorum size, Kurt halkinin inanilmaz acisini, cilesini okuyun. O Kurt
halki ki bu vatan icin seve seve canini vermis, emek vermistir. Sayin
Botan Kurt'lere yapilanlarin acisini taa yureginizde hissetmedikce,
hirsinizdan aglamadiginiz surece ben Kurd'um demeyin. Degilsiniz cunku.
Ben bunu kendimden biliyorum. Hep Kurd'um derdim kendime ama gercek
anlamda Kurd'u anladigim oylesine yakin bir tarihtirki. Ama Sayin Botan,
ben PKK'yi desteklemedigim donemde de hic bir zaman TC'nin tarafini da
tutmadim. Kurt halkina yaptigi seylere mazeret bulmadim. O yuzden de ben
Turkiye'de bile insanlar tarafinda PKK'li olmakla suclanirdim, PKK'li
olmadigim halde. Cunku ben TC'yi desteklemezdim. Siz bunu yapiyorsunuz
beni uzen taraf bu. Bunu benim aklim almiyor. Nasil bir insan kendi
halkina 'fasist'ce davranan bir devlete mazeretler bulur benim bunu
anlamam mumkun degil. ben boyle bir celiskiyi yasamadim hic.

Sayin Botan gelin benim bir onerimi dinleyin. Simdi siz bu konuda
okumadiginiz icin bizim sizinle su anda PKK'yi tartismamiz anlamsiz
olacak. Ama gelin siz bazi kitaplari okuyun once soyle eskiden neler
yapilmis onlari bir ogrenin sonrada gelin bugun icin ne yapilabilir onu
tartisalim. Ne dersiniz? Biz nasilsa buradayiz, PKK'da bir yere gitmiyor
ne zaman olsa tartisiriz onu. Eger istediginiz kaynak olursa benim
e-mailimi biliyorsunuz size seve seve kaynak gonderebilirim. Sayin
Botan, siz yeterki Kurt halkinin yaninda olun, sonrada benden canimi
isteyin.

Saygilarimla,

Hanife

[Murat]

do...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> Sayin Hanife hanim, Gorunen o ki bir Kurdun Pkk hakkindeki olumsuz
> fikirleri pek de hosunuza gitmedi. Hele hele Murat beyin kaba ve
> kultursuzluk kokan yazisindan, sizlerde uyandirdigim ofkeyi fazlasiyla
> anladim...

sensitif kole!
ben tercihimi acik yaparim, kole olmaktansa terbiyesiz olmayi tercih
ediyorum;
simdi de adabi muaseret ogrenelim bir koleden!

> Tartismanin budenli ofkeyle gecmesi hic hos degil, fakat
> bunlari yinede saygiyla karsiliyorum....

hadi canim!
neden saygiyla karsiliyorsun?
burda yapmacik"efendilik" gosteri yapmayalim;
burda gelip TC nin ucuncu sinif papagani gibi kibar kriminalite icra
edin-
bizde sanki bir sey yokmus gibi "efendi efendi" tartisalim!
yalanci yapmacikligin adi ne zamandan beri kibarlik oldu?
unutmayin Hitler binlerce yahudiyi gaz odalarina Wagner caldirarak
gonderdi:
ne ince ve kulturlu bir duyarlilik-

sinir ucuna dokunan refleksi hesaplamalidir; benim gosterdigim ozgur
yasama refleksidir-
yapmaciksiz-sansursuz- sizin tasidiginiz dusuncelerden tiksiniyorum-

> Hanife hanim, durust olmak
> gerekirse Kurt sorunuyla ilgili fazla okumus degilim, haklisiniz.

en kisa zamanda baslamalisiniz!
baslayinki benim gibiler ofkelenip terbiyesizlesmesin,
siz de tiksindirici olmayin. yeterli bilgiye dayanmadan nasil binlerce
kisinin hayatini
etkileyecek o kadar kesinlikte laflari edebiliyorsunuz ?

> Sadece
> size kalabalik ve koklu bir Kurt ailesinden geldigim icin, tecrubelerime
> dayanarak yazma tesebbusunde bulundum... Simdi diyeceksinizki neymis bu
> koklu aile... Benim ailemin geldikleri yer Siirt'in Pervari ilcesidir,
> babamda burda dogmusdur...

Yani Botan adi mintikadan geliyor!
Yani neredeyse ayni mintikadaniz!

Akrabalarimin yuzde doksani Kurtce konusur ve
> Kurt kulturunu her yaniyla ortaya koyarlar... Aralarinda
> Milletvekilinden ( gecmisde ), ogretmeninden tutunda koy korucusuna
> kadar bir KURT olarak TURKIYEYE hizmet etmis olan kimseler mevcutdur...

bakin simdi su lakirdiya, gel de sinirlenme!
hani Pervari yi bilmesem gecip gidecegim!
oyle laflar ediyorsun ki sentral sinir sitemime $i$ sokuyorsun!
1-Bu akrabalarin neden pervari ye degilde Turkiye ye hizmet etmis?
Pervari refah sevyesine eristi de Turkiye ye mi el atilar?
Pervari li cocuklarin gotlerinde don yok !
bunlarin donunu rizkini kim caldi ?
siralanan mesleklere bakalim
miletvekili (kurdistan icin calisanlar iceride, asireti icin calisanlar
hala mecliste)
Korucu (onemli bir cogunlugu ya komsu koyden ya oteki yamactaki koyden
kiz kacirip irzina gecerek turkiye ye hizmet ediyor- kurdistanin
genclerini av kopekleri gibi onlere surulerek izledikleri operasyonlara
suruluyorlar- kisiliksiz parali lejyonerler)
sizin ailede yoreye hizmet eden biri yok mu?
Muhakkak vardir! ancak bu galiba sen degilsin?

> Bunun yaninda koyumuze yapdigimiz hizmetlerde cok sayidadir.

siz koyunuzun miletvekilini mi sectiniz, siirt icin mi?
asirete hizmet olmasin?

>Sayin Hanife
> hanim, ben yasadiklarimdan, gorduklerimden dolayi size hikaye
> anlatmiyorum, zaten enbasindan tahmin etmisdimki yazdiklarim sizi
> fazlasiyla rahatsiz edebilir, bunedenle edebiyatimi mumkun oldugunca
> kibar bir dille ortaya koydum... Siz beni fasist bile yapdiniz,

bence hanife sana fasist demek le cok buyuk iltifat yapmis-
sen zavali kole ruhlu bir kurtsun-
hayatin bu ezikligin altinda pastirma gibi olmus zihnini de etkilenmis-
geri donus var mi elbette var- kurt nufusunun onemli bir bolumu senin
gibiydi-
simdi maasalah iki ayaklari ustunde duruyorlar.
Uzgunum kendimi zorlasamda sana karsi kibar olamiyorum, gercekten, cok
cabaladim
bir insanin kisiligine bu kadar saldirmak ve benim yaptigim turde
terbiyesizlik yapmak
hic hos degil, ancak her satirin adeta beni tahrik ediyor ve gercek
dusuncelerimi aciklamayi hep en dogru tavir buldugumdan oturu sana
bunlari yaziyorum.

> gulup
> geciyorumda, asil ilgincime giden surekli beni anlamamakda direnisiniz.

nereni anlayalim?
soyledigin seyler karmasik bir ruh hali degil ki!
Berbat bir kolelik durumu ile karsi karsiyayiz!
sanki ortada 3. relativite teorisi var da biz anlamakta gucluk
cekiyoruz.
TC nin tezlerini berbat bicimde tekrarliyorsun, ustelikte hic bir
bilgi, kanit kirintisina dayandirmadan!
Turkler bunu yaptiklarinda milli cikarlari acisindan yapiyorlar;
bence sen de asiretinin cikarlari acisindan yapsan yine de ammena
diyecegim; ama
soylemin TC yi sanki hizmet edilmesi gereken bir kurum sevyesine
cikardigindan;
yani katilimizin reklamini gozumuzun icine baka baka yaptigindan, benden
aldigin tepkiyi ziyadesi ile hakediyorsun!

> Size TC nin yonetiminden, siyasetinden nedenli hoslanmadigimi defalarca
> yazdim... TC nin bircok politikasini sevmedigimi belirtdim...

yazilarin ortada:
bak aynen alintiliyorum:

"
>Oncelikle, Pkk nin bir teror orgutu oldugunu, TC dediginizinde dunyada
> taninan, bilinen bir ulke konumunda oldugunu hatirlatirim.

Bu ne demek oluyor?
yani TC hakli pkk haksiz taraflar! oyle mi degil mi?

> Pkk nin
> kendine belirledigi emel dogrultusunda, hic bir siyasal
>ve kulturel
> faliyet gostermedigini,

Ya bu ne oluyor, elsestiri mi, iskembeden atilmis TC propagandasi mi?

> amacina, bir teror orgutunun butun
> karakteristiklerini ortaya koyan
yoldan, yani; insan oldurerek, kanunlari
> hirsizlik, kacakcilik vs. yontemlerle cigneyerekden gitdigini kabul
> edelim.

Bu soyledigin isleri 70 yildir hangi miktarda kim daha fazla yapmis onu
biliyor musun?
yoksa sizin asiretten yada yakinlarinizdan bir korucu yu oldurdu;
asiretin tikir tikir donen tekerine comak soktu diye PKK ye dis mi
biliyorsun?

>Hanife hanim halen neden anlamamakda direniyorsunuz...? Size en
> icden Kurtlugumle yaziyorum,

bu da garip bir ton; kurt olman hic bir sey ifade etmiyor!
Ahmet adiyman da hem kurt hem katil (Turkiyeye hizmet edenlerden !)
M.zeydan da hem kurt hem katil hem eroinci (Turkiyeye hizmet edenlerden
!)
S. Bucak ta hem kurt, hem katil, hem eroinci, hem ceteci (Turkiyeye
hizmet edenlerden !)
ya senin kurtlugune ek olarak ne tur baska icraatlarin var ?

> Tek
> anlasamadigimiz nokta Pkk nin konumu ve yaptiklari olmasi gerekirken, siz
> olayi alakasiz yerlere cekmeye calisdiniz...

senin yazdiklarin icinde anlamayla ilgili bir tek iller tutar cumle yok:
otur pkk nin kanitli, mantikli elstirisini yaz ve o zaman efendice karis
elestiri bekle!
boyle hatai bir konuda TC nin mimari oldugu camurlari atip, efendilik
beklemen
anlamsiz!

>"Pkk size tek caremi kaldi?"
> sordum ve soruyorum... Benim siz Pkk yi destekleyen Kurtlerden ogrenmek
> istedigim tek sey bu... Hadi bakalim, hodri meydan...

Prensip olarak pkk nin tek care olmadigi acik!
pratik olarak pkk nin en guclu ve destegi en yaygin orgut olamsindan
dolayi
onemi coktur (bu pkk nin hatalardan arinmis goksel bir orgut oldigi
yada olmasi gerektigi anlaminda degil); ileride cok secimli cozum
olasiliklarina ulasabilmek icin, pkk nin kurt toplumu icin hayat
sigortasi ozeligini gormeyen ya zihinsel kordur, ya da baska berbat bir
niyeti olmali! hepsi bu.

Kolelere saygi felan yok!
kolelikten cikmak icin yol cok!
murat

[Azadi97]

PUK: Massive operations against KDP forces.
The Kurdistan Observer
Oct 14, 97
A radio broadcast by Iraq-based PUK stated that their armed forces has
started  massive operations
against the KDP forces after the failure of last week's London meeting
of the Ankara peace process.

" we urge the KDP forces to surrender to our forces, our operations will
not come to halt until
we free the Capital, Arbil, and the Badinan areas." the radio said.

It also added that a large section of Safeen Mountain, including 15
villages, has fallen under the control
of PUK forces.
" The KDP forces has escaped from Haj Omeran towards Qasre area, they
have paid heavy losses
and withdrawn from a large area." the radio said.

The United Nations also said on Monday fierce fighting was raging
between rival Kurdish groups in Iraqi Kurdistan
on severalfronts in the buffer zone separating their militias.

The KDPcalled on the sponsors of the Ankara peace process, the United
States, Britain and Ankara, to take
action against the PUK.
                                           Back To News

[Azadi97]

>Subject: Re:Pkk Kurdun tek caresimi?Re: Botan, nereye bakiyor? Re: TURKISH
>NATIONALISM
>From: do...@worldnet.att.net
>Date: Mon, Oct 13, 1997 23:11 EDT
>Message-id: <8767945...@dejanews.com>
>
>

The Kurdistan Observer
Oct 1, 97

Kurdish parliament-in-exile calls on all parties to join forces  with
Turkish Kurds

Kurdish MED-TV on 30th September

Remzi Kartal, Kurdish parliament-in-exile executive council
member, has held a briefing on the work being conducted to
convene a national congress in southern Kurdistan [northern
Iraq]. At the end of his briefing, Kartal issued a call to all
the parties, organizations and institutions in Kurdistan to the
effect that the time has come to call people to accounts.
Explaining that efforts are being exerted to end the ongoing
civil war in southern Kurdistan and to convene a national
congress within the framework of the national interests of the
people, Kartal added that extensive work is being conducted
with all the political parties, the religious organizations and
notable personalities, except the KDP [Kurdistan Democratic
Party]. He said that work was under way with professional
organizations and intellectuals under the name of the Union of
Kurdistan Intellectuals. Kartal issued the following call to
all the Kurdish organizations and institutions:
 I call on everybody to fulfil their responsibilities
towards humanity and our people in this historic period.
Through your television, the Kurdish parliament-in-exile calls
once again on all the parties to join forces in the liberation
struggle for Kurdistan under the leadership of the PKK
[Turkey-based Kurdistan Workers'Party]. The Kurdish
parliament-in-exile calls on our people abroad. We expect our
people to show the necessary sensitivity to our call. The
parliament-in-exile calls on our people and on all the other
Kurdish organizations to fulfil their responsibilities by
staging mass activities and reactions, voicing their views in
the press, and taking a stand in diplomatic and political
arenas. We call on all the Kurdish organizations to fulfil
their historic responsibilities along these lines. Both history
and our people will not forgive those parties and institutions
that take no notice of the current betrayal, by being mere
spectators in the face of the occupation. For this reason, this
process makes it imperative for Kurdish organizations to take
an active part in the liberation struggle of our people. In
this vein, great responsibilities befall the Kurdish
organizations and people.

The Kurdistan Observer
Oct 1, 97

Alliance of Iraqi Kurdish parties condemns Turkish "occupation"

Kurdish MED-TV on 30th September
 
The Kurdistan Democratic Alliance - composed
of the PUK, the Kurdistan Democratic Socialist Party, the
Kurdistan Conservative Party, the Democratic
Movement and the Kurdistan Toilers'Party - has issued a
communique strongly condemning the second occupation operation
the Turkish Army has launched in southern Kurdistan with the
support of the KDP. The communique noted that the occupationist
Turkish Army had entered and violated the sacred Kurdish
territories on 24th September following the appeal made by
Barzani and high-ranking officials of the KDP, adding that tens
of thousands of troops and hundreds of tanks, artillery and
panzers, supported by many fighter planes, have occupied the
the Badinan region under the pretext of removing the PKK
[Kurdistan Workers' Party] from that region.
The communique pointed out that this is not the first attempt
made by the Turkish Army to occupy Kurdistan with the support
of the KDP, recalling that another occupation operation was
launched some four months ago on the day when the peace talks
between the PUK and the KDP were to begin in Ankara. The
communique went on to state that an extensive section of the
Badinan region was occupied by the Turkish Army as a
result of the 14th May operation, adding that dozens of
villages and hundreds of defenceless people had been victimized
by this occupation. The communique added that the Turkish Army,
in its recent operation, had occupied dozens of additional
villages in the regions of Amadiyah, Bamerni, Garah,
Metina and Nirwah, forcing hundreds of families to
emigrate from their villages. The alliance protested and
condemned this second occupation and warned the Turkish state
that it must withdraw its troops from the region immediately.
The communique concluded by calling on the United Nations,
Western countries and the world public to put pressure on the
Turkish state to end the occupation and on the Kurdish
organizations to resist it.

 Fighting between KDP and PKK reportedly easing
 Egyptian news agency MENA
Sep 30, 97
Baghdad, 30th September: Clashes between Kurdistan Democratic
Party (KDP) led by Mas'ud Barzani and the Kurdistan Workers'
Party (PKK) eased down yesterday, MENA, quoting witnesses from
northern Iraq, said today.
The two sides have suspended trade of artillery shelling, they
said.
Relative cautious calm prevails the area, they said. They did
not rule out that wide-scale fighting would be renewed at any
moment.
Turkish troops are also in the region in search of elements
from the outlawed PKK elements, witnesses added, they said.
Turkish troops backed by aircraft and tanks started last
Tuesday [23rd September] a wide-scale military operation in
northern Iraq.

PUK " 60 Turkish troops killed in Iraqi-Kurdistan "
Kurdistan Observer

The radio of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) has announced that
Sixty Turkish soldiers were
killed in Iraqi Kurdistan in clashes with the PKK fighters the past
three days.

The PUK-controlled radio, quoted the PKK as saying  that bodies of those
killed, among
them army commanders, have been transferred to the city of Van in Turkey
on a special plane.

The sources also said that some 44 PKK fighters were also  killed in the
conflict.
Heavy fighting is going on between Turkish armed forces and the Kurds
around cities of Amîdiya,
Dohuk and Zakho in northern Iraq, the PUK radio added.

Forces of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), in a military operation
launched inside Turkish
territory Saturday night, inflicted heavy damage on government
establishments in Hakkari,
the radio claimed.

[TOzturk]

sayin hanife
yazdiklarinizi surda burda okudukca beni cok celiskide birakiyorsunuz.bir
bakiyorum yapici sozlerle iyi egitim gormus bir cagdas insan. ama diger bir
yazisinda karsitina yazdigi yazilarda
pkk yi destekleyen ve 1000 lerce yil once olanlardan insanlari sorumlu tutan
ve bu gunun iyi veya kotu politika yapmis hukumetten cok turkiyeyi kendine
hedef almis insan.iste hanife hanim bendeki izleniminiz bu.hem yapici
yaziyorsunuz hemde cok yikici yaziyorsunuz.bu iki tezin yapicilik tezini
sectiginizde dun geride kaldi deyin.tarihi hic bir zaman unutalim demiyorum ve
ayni yanlisliklari yapmamak uzere yarina daha barisci daha olumlu bakalim
diyorum.turkiyede kurt halkinin problemleri aslinda butun insanlar icin
gecerli.eger konuyu yanlizca bir kokenin sorununu cozmekle bitireceginizi
saniyorsaniz birakin bu mucadeleyi.cunku turkiyede belli bir turk irkini
saptamak dahi imkansiz.bu insan hakkini herhangi bir teror yoluyla aradigimi
zanneden pkk gibi guruplarla kendinizi ayni kaba koyunca ;size bakis acimiz
otomatikman on yargilarla deyisiyor.cunku kabullenir bir gercek pkk turkiyede
hicbir kurt sorununa care getirmedi dahada zor getirdi.nasilmi ? gayet basit
bazen toplum kurt ile pkk yi ayirmada gucluk cekiyor hele birde kisi
eytimsizse kurt halkiyla diger kokenler arasinda buyuk bir zit ayirim
basliyor.size sahid oldugum bir olayi anlaticam.otobuste giderken karadenizli
bir vatandasimiz
besiktas kocaeli macinin neticesini sordu.sivesinden belli karadeniz bolgeli
oldugu.aniden otobusten inmekte olan bir baska vatandas soyle karsilik verdi "
senin besiktasla ne ilgin var sen lazsin dedi"
bu sefer karadenizli vatandasta cok hidetli bir sekilde bu hainler heryerde
diye cikis yapinca nerdeyse bir kavga ortami dogacakti .
sansimiza otobus cabuk durdu ve olaya karisan kisi otobusu terk etmis
oldu.simdi sorarim belki kara denizli vatandasimiz yanlis anladi diger insan
yanlizca besiktasin bir karadeniz takimi olmadigini bekirtmek istiyordu.neden
trabzon sporlu degilsin demek istiyordu kim bilebilir.iste pkk bu on yargilari
insanlarin kafasina kurt insani icin yanlis yerlestiriyor. .kurt iseniz ne
kadar guzel bir sey gecmisinizi biliyorsunuz lisanini konusup atani taniyorsun
guzel bir vasif.o insanlara yardim etmek ilerletmek istiyorsan cok daha
mukkemel . onlara pkk ya nasil girilirin yerine universiteye zorda olsa nasil
girilir egitim ilim nerde nasil alinir veya hukuki konularda insancil savunma
nasil yapilir eger bu ulke yeterli degilse dunyanun getirdigi insan haklari
tezi nasil kazanilmistir.bu gibi yollarla sevdigim dedigin kurt halkina dahada
faydaki olursun.
turkiyede kurt halkina veriln en ufak hakki pkk ya mal etmek cok buyuk hata
olur.zaten pkk da bunu hak etmedi.
sayin hanife akitalacak bir sinek kani dahi gecersiz bir yontem icin
cok fazladir ki genc insanlarimiz oluyor. belki cicegi burnunda olen bu insan
dunyayi cok daha iyi seviyeeye goturebilecekti.fakat bir yanlis probagandanin
kurbani oldu ve dunyasini bile tanimadan yok oldu.bu savasta veya her turlu
siddet catismasinda olen her insan icin gecerlidir.ben harbin cok azini gordum
ne oldugunu bilirim bunun icindir bir cani feda etmek cok ciddi bir konudur.
yapici olunuz dunyaya bakarak esinlenip ders alinmali etnik kavgalar ortadoguda
yogoslavyada rusyada afrikada insanlara ne kazandirmistir ki?? turkiyede bize
ne kazandirir?.gore gore kendimizi atese atmiyalim herkezin yaptigi hatayi bu
guzel ulkemizde yaptirmiyalim. sevgi baris herzaman problemlerin hallinde atilan en iyi adimdir

[ZeMzEmSuYu]

hanife denen orospu pkk eskiya orgutudur ve sende o eskiya orgutunun
parcasisin. simdi anladim gercekten yarrak pesindeymissin ama sana vermem ben
hastalik gecer filan hadi baska kapiya siktir git gurubumuzdan

[Hakki Kocabas]

In message <<19971018045...@ladder02.news.aol.com>> zemze...@aol.com writes:
> parcasisin. simdi anladim gercekten yarrak pesindeymissin ama sana vermem ben
> hastalik gecer filan hadi baska kapiya siktir git gurubumuzdan

hehhe..hehhe.hhee..sizin grup SCTM, yanli$ kapi caldin
bre Bekta$i....SCTM - Donmeh-Bekta$i-Mullah Tekkesi..
Tebrikler sonunda sizin de bir grubunuz olacak, sirlarinizi
birbirinzle payla$acaginiz...ben boyle bir gruba niye
hayir diyeyim?
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||

[do...@worldnet.att.net]

Sayin Hanife hanim,

Kurtlere olan ilginiz cok guzel... Sizi cok takdir ediyorumda, pkk ya
olan bu simsiki bagimliliginizi anlayamiyorum... News de hergun pkk
savunmak sizin icin neden bukadar onemli merak etdim dogrusu! Bakin
Hanife hanim, Pkk nedir neyapar bilmek icin okuyup hatip olmaya gerek
yok... kendini siddete adamis bir teror orgutunun nesini nasil
seversiniz, Turkiyeye ve Turk insanina kin beslemedikce bu gurubu nasil
siyasi diye nitelendirirsiniz.... sonra Pkk yi desteklemek bir secim isi
olucak kadar basit bir durummu? Hanife hanim siz bukadar dusmanlik ve kin
dolu olamazsiniz... Bir oyuna gelmissiniz! Sanmayinki butun Kurtler Pkk
ya sempati duyuyorlar... Sanmayinki Pkk yi destekleyenlerin hepsi
Kurtlere sempati duyuyorlar... Ve hic aklinizdan gecmesinki Pkk yi akli
basinda kimseler yonetmekde.... Pkk en basarili Kurt orgutuymusmus...!
Pkk oylesine basarili bir orgutki, sayesinde Kurt sorunuda bu noktaya
kadar geldi dahasi butun dunya Kurtlerden haberdar oldu... Pkk nin
oldurdugu insanlar, ozellikle turistler sayesinde international bir une
kavusduk, nemutlu bize... Turkiyenin dogusu fakirdi, simdi hem fakir
hemde tehlikeli bolge... Ama kazaniyorsunuz Hanife hanim, bakin simdi
Turkiyenin tumune talipsiniz!

Hanife hanim, Turkiyeninde buyuk hatalariyla Pkk bu noktalara geldi,
buyudu yayildi, guclendi fakat isterse dunyanin en buyuk teror gucu
olsun, sonunda bir teror orgutu olmakdan oteye gidemez... Faturada en
cok Kurtlere pahaliya patlamis olur sonunda...

Turkiyeyi iyilestirmek fikrime sicak bakmadiniz, cunku Turkiye hasta
oldugunu kabul etmiyormusmus...Eger ben kabul ediyorsam, bir baska aydin
insan kabul ediyorsa ne mutlu bize... Turk vatandasi degilmi bugune
kadarki cogu hukumetden aradigini bulamayip, politikalardan ceken, ac
kalan, bilgisizlige, acliga, gerilige mahkum kalan... ve bunun
karsiliginda; Turk oglu Turk degilmi o butun politikacilardan nefret
etdigini soyleyip, televizyonlarda boy gosteren deli gibi kizgin
vatandaslar.... yada gecmis deki hukumetlere nalet edip yenilerde umut
arayanlar... ne farkeder...

Hanife hanim bu Turk oglu Turkler ve benim gibi Kurtler ve digerleri,
bizler Turkiyenin koleleri degiliz, fakat ona olan vatan askimizin
yonunde, onun icinde yasayan her bir bireyi dusunerekden, refah, huzur ve
dogru icin cirpinmamiz, bizim ne buyuk ve ne denli sadik vatandas, insan
ve hak savascilari oldugumuzu gosterir...

Ben sahsen, Turkiyenin yonetiminde ileriye donuk guzel sinyaller
aliyorum... Yeni hukumet bazi konularda hatalari olsada guzel isler
yapiyor ve en guzelide kendine guzel amaclar belirlemis... Kurt sorununu
cozebilicek asil birim olan bu hukumet belkide bu konudada cok
beklenmedik adimlar atabilir...

Belkide cok enayiyim, yada belkide cok fazla umut doluyum fakat, iyi
niyet bu Hanife hanim, dogruyu buldumu yapisir ona.

Saygilarimla

Botan

In article <3442FD...@frank.uakron.polymer.edu>,

hanife <han...@frank.uakron.polymer.edu> wrote:
>
> Sayin Botan,
>

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------

[Murat]

Pkk kurtlerin tek caresi mi diye buyurmus sefil kole botan!
belki degil!
ancak kesin olan bir sey var pkk ,
kole kurtlerin , kimil zararlisinin ve ahmak kurtlerin tek caresi.