Kurtlerin NEVRUZ diye bir bayrami yok?..
Yekety
it mean in the "PURE" TURKIC LANGUAGE???????????
ey...@ozemail.com.au
açıga çıktı. Devletin kutladıgı bir bayram Halkın bayramı olamaz. hele
Kürt halkının hiç olamaz. Kürt halkı 4000 in üzerinde köyünü silah
zoruyla bosaltan devletle aynı bayramı kutlayamaz.
Eger Yılmaz la karısı bayram kutluyorsa, egar devlet sokaklarda
yakılmak üzere lastik dagıtıyorsa, o ista gerçekten bir ikiyüzlülük
var demektir.Bu konuda Kemalist devletten daha yüzsüzü dünyada
görülmemistir.
Eger bir seyi baska türlü berbat edemiyorsa onu devletlestirerek,
resmilestirerek, Kemalistlestirerek berbat ediyor. Solu 12 eylülden
sonra kemalistlestirdi, geriye ECETÜRK kaldı simdide NEWROZa el attı.
Ondanda "nevruz" kalacak. Eger günün birinde Kürtçeyi serbes bırakırsa
mutlaka Türkçenin bilmem en eski hangi lehçesi diye yapacak. Bu
kemalizmin temelinde var. Laiklesiyoruz diye dini de
devletlestirmedilermi? Simdide güya laikligi kurtarmak için, Erbakanı
saha dısı bırakmak ugruna çevirmedikleri dolapmı kaldı? Sahi erbakan
Evrenden dahami seriatçi?
Cıvanlı adaletinizi, Milli görüsçü islamiyetinizi pasalı
demokrasinizi, çillerli Mesutlu hükümetinizi, Çig köfteli meclisinizi,
Kontra sefli partilerinizi, Nevruzlu bayramlarınızı canı gönülden
kutlarım! benim cici kemalistlerim
Kürtleri Newroz suz bıraktınız. Ama Kürtlersiz NEWROZ olmayacak.
Nevruz sizin olsun.
Hepimizin NEWROZU kutlu olsun.
Mehmet Gokturk
|What does NEVRUZ mean? In Kurdish it means NEW-Day (New-year), what does
|it mean in the "PURE" TURKIC LANGUAGE???????????
My Persian is not that good but I know Nev means New and Roose means day.
Remeber Nevsehir ;)
As i KNOW the Numbers Yek-du-se-car-penc-ses etc.
Don't worry, New York is not related with Kurdish Language, neither
bir-iki-uc-dort-bes-alti ..
By the way can you count from 1 to 10 in Kurdish ?
Thanks..
mehmet
Hakan Basagaoglu
Soyle bir Orta Asya daki Turk Devletlerine bakarsan hepsinde nevruz
kutlanmaktadir, Eski Turk gelenek, gorenek ve adetlerinin daha iyi bir
sekilde korunmus oldugu (kismen) bu toplumlarNevruz un eski Turk
toplumlarinda kutlandigiginin bir gostergesidir. Newroz kelimesinin ozune
de bakarsan Farsca kokenli bir kelimedir. Nov (New) Ruz (Day)
anlamindadir, ve baharin gelisini simgelemek icin kullanilmaktadir. Bu
Iran da olsun ve tum Orta Asya Turk Devletlerinde olsun bu mantikla
kutlanir. Turk Devletinin yapmis oldugu kutlama da diger Turk
devletlerinde kutlanan ve Kurt vatandaslarinca da benimsenen bu bayrami
millilestirmek olmustur, yaklsaim son derece dogrudur. Dostlugun, baharin
gelisini temsil eden bu bayram maalesef ayrilikci (bolucu) Kurt
gruplarinca ilginc sebeplerle degisik amaclara cekilmeye calisilmaktadir.
Eger bayram kutlanmazsa Turkiye kultur yok ediyor, eger kutlanirsa iki
yuzlu oluyor, sen ne yaptiginin ve konustugunu farkinda degilsin, Newroz
mus nenruz olmus, soyledigim gibi newroz un ozu farsca, Kurtce degil,
ikincisi Nevruz newroz olunca icerigimi degisyor, bu kadar sekilci ve
basma kalip olmana gerek yok,
Sen Kurtce konustunda agizina kilit mi taktilar, amacain konuyu baska bir
yere cekmekse, sana sunu soyleyeyim, Turk Cumhuriyetinin tek bir resmi
dili vardir (her azinligin dili resmi dil olamaz, ve egitim dilide
olamaz) ve o devlet Tek BIR BAYRAK ile temsil edilir.
Kemalist devletten ziyade senin gibilerden daha yuzssuzu gorulmemistir,
daha oncede yazdigim gibi, sen Kurt oldugun icin isemi giremedin, burs
icin basvurdun da yurt disina mi gonderilmedin, universite ye gitmen mi
yasaklandi, okk ye temsil etmedigin surece meclisemi giremedin, Turkiye
nin herhangi bir yerinde yasaman mi yasaklandi, is sahibi mi olamadin,
holding mi kuramadin, Cuneytin dedigi gibi besle kargayi oysin gozunu,
Senin gibi boluculerin emin ol gucu hic bir seye yetmez, yetmeyecek,
Kemalistler buna hic ama hic izin vermez,
HAKAN
ey...@ozemail.com.au wrote:
: 1996 yilindan sonra kürtlerin NEWROZ isminde bir bayrami olmadigi
: açąga çąktą. Devletin kutladągą bir bayram Halkąn bayramą olamaz. hele
: Kürt halkąnąn hiç olamaz. Kürt halką 4000 in üzerinde köyünü silah
: zoruyla bosaltan devletle ayną bayramą kutlayamaz.
: Eger Yąlmaz la karąsą bayram kutluyorsa, egar devlet sokaklarda
: yakąlmak üzere lastik dagątąyorsa, o ista gerçekten bir ikiyüzlülük
: var demektir.Bu konuda Kemalist devletten daha yüzsüzü dünyada
: görülmemistir.
: Eger bir seyi baska türlü berbat edemiyorsa onu devletlestirerek,
: resmilestirerek, Kemalistlestirerek berbat ediyor. Solu 12 eylülden
: sonra kemalistlestirdi, geriye ECETÜRK kaldą simdide NEWROZa el attą.
: Ondanda "nevruz" kalacak. Eger günün birinde Kürtçeyi serbes bąrakąrsa
: mutlaka Türkçenin bilmem en eski hangi lehçesi diye yapacak. Bu
: kemalizmin temelinde var. Laiklesiyoruz diye dini de
: devletlestirmedilermi? Simdide güya laikligi kurtarmak için, Erbakaną
: saha dąsą bąrakmak ugruna çevirmedikleri dolapmą kaldą? Sahi erbakan
: Evrenden dahami seriatçi?
: Cąvanlą adaletinizi, Milli görüsçü islamiyetinizi pasalą
: demokrasinizi, çillerli Mesutlu hükümetinizi, Çig köfteli meclisinizi,
: Kontra sefli partilerinizi, Nevruzlu bayramlarąnązą caną gönülden
: kutlarąm! benim cici kemalistlerim
:
: Kürtleri Newroz suz bąraktąnąz. Ama Kürtlersiz NEWROZ olmayacak.
: Nevruz sizin olsun.
:
: Hepimizin NEWROZU kutlu olsun.
:
:
--
Murat
Genel olarak diller ilgili.
ozel olarak Farsca ve Kurtce ile ilgili,
gelenekler ile ilgili, "kultur" dedigimiz seyin ne oldugu ile
ilgili, yayilisi ile ilgili, politik manipulasyonlar ile ilgili
bilgilerini artirdiktan da sonra yorum yapmalisin.
Murat
Hakan Basagaoglu
Bilgimi olcecek kadar cok mu bilgilisn, yoksa yorum icin herkesin senden
izin veya onay mi almasi gerekiyor, SCG de yazan su ukala Yunanlilardan
hic bir farkin yok, yazim tarzi acisindan,
HAKAN
Behrooz Shajai
kutlamasini hic sordunmu, sormadin mi? Siz PARANOID bir ulus siniz. Ustelikle kultur hirsizligi
de size gercekten yarasir. Kurt folkloru, halk halaylarini caldiniz. Simdi de sira kurtlerin ulusal
geleneklerine gelmis.
Orta Asya binlerce sene Iranin hakimiyeti altinda kalmistir. Orta Asya Turk halklari Newroz
kutlamasi garip bir sey degildir. Iranli(Kurtler, Farslar, Pestular, beluclar, tacikler vb.) halklari
Newroz kutlarlar ve dedigim gibi Orta Asya halklari de bu gelenegi onlardan ogrenmis. Ama
Newrozu bir Turk bayrami yapmak, sacmaca, fantazisizlik, hirsizliktan baska bir sey olamaz.
Newrozun, ozellikle kurt halkina, kendi anilari, kendi anlamlari var. Peki Istanbulun donmis
Arnavut Turke ne anlama gelebilir.
CIHE WE DOJEH E!
Behrooz Shajai
Nevshehir is a persian-kurdish word not a Turkish one. That kind of words you can find in old
Turkish or as you say Osmalica.
Nev(turkish deformation of New), Now(new persian), Nu(new kurdish) New(the version in the
bigingnig of a word instead of Nu) are iranian words.
With Iranian I mean the land Iran not the state. Sehir (persian Shahr or kurdish shehr) is the
word for city or town. So please dont tell me that Nev shehir is a Turkish word.
Besides your osmanian forefathers had a lot of persian words in their language.
Count kurdish?
Here it comes:
Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des)
20 bist
30 si
40 chil
50 penci
60 shest
70 hefte
80 heshte
90 not
100 sed (think obout the french cent)
As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
Hakan Basagaoglu
: Hakan ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ !
: Genel olarak diller ilgili.
: ozel olarak Farsca ve Kurtce ile ilgili,
: gelenekler ile ilgili, "kultur" dedigimiz seyin ne oldugu ile
: ilgili, yayilisi ile ilgili, politik manipulasyonlar ile ilgili
: bilgilerini artirdiktan da sonra yorum yapmalisin.
: Murat
Murat, simdi sira benim, ve ayni seyi ben sana soyleyeyim,
MURAT ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ,
Genel olarak diller ile ilgili imis, farsca diye Murat burada cikis yapmis,
Murat Farscayi oldukca iyi konusurum. Esimin Iran
asilli olmasindan dolayi bu dile ve kulture senden cok daha fazla yakin
oldum, (umarim kultur ilr rejimi ayirabiliyorsundur)
Ikincisi eminim doguda senden daha uzun kalmisimdir, dedelerim Kafkas
lardan goc ettikten sonra olukca uzun bir sure Erzurum ve cevresinde
ikamet etmisler, dolayisyla dogudaki insani da yasamini da cok iyi bilirim.
Sen benim soylediklerime cevap verecek bilgi duzyin neymis, yukaridaki
iki satir laf kalabaligi yaparak AYDIN havasimi estirmeye calistin, yoksa
cok bos zamanin vardida klavye basinda parmak egsersizi mi yapmaya
calisiyordun,
Bos konusup, yazmaktan bos bir zamanin olursa Cevdet in homepage ile
ilgili yazmis oldugum mesajda Kurt kulturu hakkinda yazdigimi oku ve
birde bu tartismayi baslatan ilk mesaji oku. Eminim tartismayi baslatan o
ilk mesaji okuduktan sonra azicik dusunebilen bir insan bu mesaj
arkasindaki art niyeti anlayabilir, soyledigim gibi azicik DUSUNEBILEN
INSAN,
HAKAN
MITHAT
(Behrooz Shajai) writes:
Re: Kurtlerin NEVRUZ diye bir bayrami yok?..
UYGURLARDA NEVRUZ KUTLAMALARI
Nuraniye ve Erkin Ekrem
Hacettepe Universitesi, Tarih bolumu
Nevruz, M.O.VIII yy'dan gunumuze kadar cetin kis sartlarinin sona erip
tabiatin uyandigi; kar, buz ve donlarin eriyip aktigi, nehirlerin cosup
tastigi, ciceklerin actigi, agaclarin yeserdigi, gece ile gunduzun esit
oldugu ve insanlarin kalbinde guzel duygularin canlandigi baharin
mujdecisi olan 21 Mart gununde dogudan batiya, guneyden kuzeye butun Turk
Dunyasi tarafindan buyuk bir coskuyla kutlanagelmektedir.
Bilindigi gibi "Nevruz" Orta Asya'da yasayan Uygur, Turkmen, Ozbek,
Azeri, Kazak, Kirgiz gibi Turk topluluklari ile Anadolu ve Balkan
Turklerinin ve de Iranlilarin "yenigun" veya "yilbasi" olarak kabul
ettikleri gundur. "Nevruz'un ne zamandan beri ve kimler tarafindan bir
solen olarak kutlandigi meselesi hala tartisilan bir konudur. "Nevruz
solenleri"nin su veya bu topluluga ait oldugunu ileri surmenin ilmi
olmayacagini savunan Nizameddin Huseyin, 21 Mart'ta Orta Asya'da ve
Kafkasya'da yasayan Uygur, Turkmen, Kazak, Kirgiz, Ozbek, Tatar, Yakut,
Teleot, Karakalpak, Sala, Baskirt, Cuvas, Macar, Kumuk, Karacay gibi Turk
topluluklari yaninda Cinliler, Japonlar, Vietnamlilar, Iranlilar, Araplar,
Hintliler, Mogollar gibi halklarin da cesitli kutlamalarda bulunduklarini
ileri surmektedir. Abdulhalik Cay'in Turk Ergenekon Bayrami Nevruz adli
eserinde belirttigi uzere oniki hayvanli Turk takvimine gore "Nevruz"
Turklerde cok eskiden beri bilinmekte ve cesitli torenlerle
kutlanmaktadir. Ancak bazi bilim adamlari, oniki hayvanli Turk takvimine
ve bircok Cince kaynaga gore Turklerde Nevruz solenlerinin yapildigi
yolundaki bilgilere ragmen, Nevruz kelimesinin Farsca kokenli olmasindan
ve Firdevsi'nin Sahname adli eserinde Nevruz kutlamalarinin Iran Sahi
Cemsid doneminde basladigi yolundaki mitolojik bilgilerden hareketle,
Nevruz'un Iran menseli oldugu fikrini ileri surmeye devam etmislerdir.
(Islam Ansiklop. C.7 , 179).
Ote yandan Nevruz'la ilgili en eski Cin kaynaklarini taradigimizda
Do-you'nun Tongdian adli eserinde yer alan bilgilerden Perslerin yilbasi
kutlamalarini 3. ay olan Mart ayinda degil, 6. ay olan Haziran ayinda
yaptigi anlasilmaktadir (1935, 1042b). Bunun yaninda Firdevsi'nin Sahname
adli eseri XI. yuzyilda yazilmis olup ozellikle milattan onceki olaylar
rivayetlere dayanmaktadir. Ayrica Cemsid hakkinda(1) birbirinden farkli
rivayetlerin olusu bu kaynagin degerini azaltmaktadir. Oysaki Du-you'nun
T'ong-dian adli eseri, VIII. yuzyilda yazilmis olup yazildigi donemin yani
(618-907) Tong sulalesi doneminin belgelere dayanan bir tarihidir. Bu
yuzden burada verilen bilgilerin dogrulugu tartisma goturmez.
Diger taraftan Prof. Abdulkerim Rahman, Nevruz bayraminin Yunan
menseli oldugunu ileri surmektedir. "Bu gun Eski Yunanlilarin icki ve
eglence tanrisi Dionis serefine kutladiklari milli bir bayramken,
Eramis'ten onceki IV. yuzyildan baslayarak Yunanlilarin Orta Asya'yi isgal
etmesiyle birlikte bu bolgelere yayilmistir. O bolgenin kultur
unsurlariyla birleserek Nevruz olarak sekillenmistir." diyen Prof. Rahman,
bu iddiasina kaynak olarak Tirmiz'de bulunan bir tabaktaki oyma resmi,
Buhara'da bulunan ve simdi Berlin'de korunmakta olan diger bir tabaktaki
resmi, Bedehsan'da bulunan bir gumus tabaktaki resmi, Turkmenistan'in
guneyindeki Nisa'da bulunan kemikten yapilmis bir kadehteki resmi ve
'Karasuk Medeniyeti' diye adlandirilan Orta Asya Medeniyeti'ne ait
arkeolojik kazilarda elde edilen cesitli resimleri gosterir (Rahman, 1989,
s.415-422). Ayrica Prof. Rahman yukaridaki kalintilarda tasvir edilen
resimlerin Orta Asya halklarina ait oldugunun Prof. Dr. G.A. Pugacinkova
tarafindan bir cok belgelere dayanilarak ispat edilmis oldugunu yine ayni
kitabinda belirtmistir (Rahman, 1989, ss 414-422).
Prof. A. Cay'in yukarida belirtmis oldugumuz Turk Ergenekon Bayrami
Nevruz adli kitabinda oniki hayvanli Turk takvimini ve bazi kaynaklari
esas alarak bu gunun "Turklerin Ergenekon Bayrami" oldugu fikrini ileri
surmektedir (Cay, 1985, 7-10).
Bu konu ile ilgili Cince kaynaklar arastirildiginda A. Cay'in bu
goruslerinin isabetli oldugu ortaya cikmaktadir. Tsi-ma-chian'in yazdigi
Shih-chi adli kitabin "Hun Tezkiresi" bolumunde, "Her yilin 1. ayi olan
(yilbasi) Mart ayinda Hunlarin butun beyleri Chan-yu ordugahina toplanip
kendi adetlerine gore cesitli kutlamalar ve ibadetlerde bulunduklari 5
ayda (miladi takvime gore 8. ayda) Lung-ch'eng denilen yerde toplanip
atalarina yer-sulara ve Goktanri'ya kurbanlar sunarak buyuk torenler
yaptiklari ve sonbaharda atlar semirdigi zaman ordugahta bulunan kisilerin
ve hayvanlarin sayilarinin tespit edildigi kaydedilmektedir (shih-chi,
Hsung-nu Chuan, 1975-2892: Han-shu Hstung-nu-chuan, 1962-3752).
Fenye'nin yazdigi son Han sulalesi tarihinde yer alan "Guney Hunlari
Tezkiresi" bolumunde kaydedildigine gore ise: "Hunlar orf ve adetlerine
gore 1.5.9. aylar (miladi takvime gore 3,8, 12) olmak uzere yilda uc defa
toplanip Tanri'ya kurbanlar sunup cesitli torenler yapiyorlar"
(1965-2944).
Chou Sulalesi tarihinin "Gokturk Tezkiresi" bolumunde "Gokturler
yilnameleri bilmezler, ancak otlarin yesermesini yani bahari yeni yilin
baslangici olarak kabul ederler" diye kaydedilir (1971-910). Tu-you'nun
yazdigi T'ong-dian adli eserin "Gokturk Tezkiresi" bolumunde ise
Gokturklerin orf ve adetlerinin Hunlarla ayni oldugu kaydedilmektedir
(1935-1068A). Ayni eserde, Gokturk hukumdarlarinin Gokturk Beyleri ile
birlikte her yil "Atalar Magara"sinda anma torenleri duzenledikleri 5.
ayda Yer-su ve Gok-Tanri'ya kurbanlar sunduklari kaydedilmektedir
(1935-1068b).
Bati Gokturklerinin de her yil bahar aylarinda atalarinin oturduklari
magaralara gidip cesitli anma torenleri duzenledigi ve 5. ayin 8'inde de
bir araya gelip yine cesitli solenler duzenledikleri
kaydedilmektedir.(1935-1077a). Tsui Sulalesi Tarihi'nin "Dogu Gokturkler
Tezkiresi" bolumunde de bu tur kayitlar yer almaktadir (1973-1864). Prof
Dr. Ch'in-chung-mian'in eski Cin takvimi hakkindaki bir arastirmasindan
anlasildigina gore, Cinlilerin ilk takvimi olan ve Mart ayinin yilbasi
olarak kutlandigi Nung-li adi verilen hem gunese hem aya gore duzenlenmis
takvim Hsia Sulalesi (M.O.XXII yy M.O. VII yy.) doneminde ortaya
cikmistir. Bu takvimde bu gune kadar bazi degisiklikler yapilmis olmakla
beraber Cinlilerce gunumuze kadar kullanilmistir. M.O.VIII yy.larda
yasayan eski Turk kavmi "Ti"ler de bu takvimi kullanmaktadir
(Ch'ing-chung-mian, 1982. 640-651). Bu kaynaga gore, eski Turklerde de
yilbasi Mart ayi olup, Chou Sulalesi Tarihi (557-581) adli eserde yer alan
"Gokturk Tezkiresinde"ki "Gokturkler bitkilerin yeserdigi zamani yilbasi
olarak kutlarlar" seklindeki ifade bunu dogrulamaktadir.
Yeni Tong Sulalesi Tarihi, Uygurlar Tezkiresi bolumunde
belirtildigine gore "Uygurlarin atalari Kao-ch'e'lardir.1.(1975:611).
Kuzey devletleri Tarihi Kao-che bolumunde "Kao-che'larin atalarinin
'Kirmizi Ti'ler oldugu yazilidir.(1964:3270).
Bu kaynaklara gore Uygurlarin atalari "Ti"lerdir. M.O. VIII yyda
yasamis olan Uygurlarin atalari doneminde Mart ayi yilbasi olduguna gore
M.S. VIII. yy.da yasayan Uygurlarda da Mart ayinin yilbasi olmasi
muhtemeldir.
Bilindigi gibi Hunlar Uygurlarin atalaridir. Hunlarin orf ve adetleri
de Uygurlar ile aynidir. Buna gore Hunlarin her yilin birinci ayinda
(yilbasinda) yaptigi kutlamalarin Mart ayinda yapilmis olmasi gerekir.
Yani Hunlarin tum beyleri ile Ch'an-yu ordugahina toplanip yaptigi kutlama
ve ibadetlerin "Nevruz Soleni"nin ilk sekli oldugu kanaatindeyiz.
Ergenekon Efsanesine gore, her yilbasinda, Ergenekon'dan cikis
gununde demir doverek cesitli kutlamalar yapiyorlardi. Bu da Cin
kaynaklarinda yer alan "Gokturkler her yili Atalar magarasinda Goktanri ve
Yersu'lara kurbanlar vererek kutlama torenleri yapar" yolundaki gorus ile
aynidir. Hun, Gokturk, ve Uygur orf ve adetlerinin ayni oldugu gorusunden
yola cikacak olursak, Ergenekon Efsanesi ile Cin kaynaklarinda yer alan
torenlerle Gokturklerin her yil torenlerine ikisinin de her Mart ayinda
yapilmis olmasi gerekmektedir.
Prof. Cay yukarida bahsedilen kitabinda, Ergenekon'dan cikis ile
"Nevruz"un ayni gunde oldugunu ileri surmektedir. (Cay 1985:7-11). Yani
Cin kaynaklarinda yer alan Hun ve Gokturklerle ilgili bu bilgiler Nevruz
geleneginin ta o zamanlarda baslayarak var oldugunu ve milli motifler
tasidigini gostermektedir. Ayrica, Orta Asya'da arkeolojik calismalardan
elde edilen bazi tabaklarda ve comleklerde bulunan resimler de bu
kutlamalarin cok eski zamanlarda sekillenmeye basladigini kesin olarak
gostermektedir (Rahman, 1986:s.2).
840 yilinda Turan bolgesine goc eden Uygurlar, Wang-yen-te'nin
anlattiklarina gore ilkbahar aylarinda cemaat halinde civardaki mabedlere
gitmekte idiler (Izgi, 1989, s.59-65).
Kasgarli Mahmud'un Divanu Lugat'it-Turk adli eserinde, Turk
boylarinin yeni yil (Nevruz) yerine "yenigun" ifadesini kullandigi
gorulmektedir. Kasgarli eserinde "Yenigunden sonraki ilk bahar ayina oglak
ayi denir. Cunku bu ayda oglaklar buyumus olur" der (Mahmud, DI.T, C.I,
s.347). DLT'de belirtildigi uzere Uygurlar, XI yy'da diger Turk boylarinda
oldugu gibi "Nevruz" degil, "yenigun" terimini kullaniyorlardi.
Ote yandan Uygurlarda "yenigun" terimi yerine "Nevruz" teriminin
hangi tarihten itibaren kullanilmaya baslandigi kesin olarak bilinmemekle
birlikte, bu kullanima ilk Ali Sir Nevai'de rastliyoruz.
Buyuk mutefekkir, Ali Sir Nevai, Car Divan adli eserinde "Nevruz" adi
verilen muzik makamlarindan ve Nevruzda okunan siirlerden bahseder. Bunlar
Noruz Huseyin, Noruz Kusek, Noruz Buruk, Noruz Bosbilla, Noruz Rast, Noruz
Sultan'dan olusmaktadir (Mehmetemin, 1980:42).
Eski Uygurlarin yeni yil soleni faaliyetleri hakkinda tarihi
kaynaklarda bu konu ile ilgili bircok bilgi bulunabilir. Hui-li'nin Muzik
Tezkiresi adli eseri ile Shang-ta'nin T'ang Sulalesinde Chang-an ve Bati
Memleketleri adli eser, konu itibariyle birbirine benzemektedir. Eski
Uygurlarda, Nevruz Soleni gelenekleri ile ilgili genis bilgilerin yer
aldigi her iki eserde tolpar (topar; uctuguna inanilan kanatli efsanevi
at) ustunde oynanan "Horto Dansi", "Salma Taslas Dansi", "Oglak Tartis
Dansi" ile hayvan kiyafetindeki maskeli danslar ve "Goyzi dani (Kucar
dansi)" gibi cesitli danslarin sarki ve muzik esliginde, eski yilin
ugurlanip yeni yilin karsilanmasi, cinlerin kovulup halkin guvenlige
kavusturulmasi ve bunlarla ilgili dileklerde bulunulmasi yolundaki cesitli
faaliyetler hatira seklinde anlatilmistir. Bu solenin o donemde yerli
agizlarda "sumuz" seklinde gectigi ve kelimenin Oguz Turkcesine ait oldugu
ve Kusen'de ortaya ciktigi belirtilmektedir (Rahman, 1989:417).
"Sumuz" kelimesiyle ilgili olarak pekcok dusunce one surulmektedir.
Meshur Kasgarli, Buda alimi Uylan (732-820) Nomm Sozcuklerinin Serhi adli
kitabinda: "Sumuz" batida bulunan Uygurlarin kullandigi bir kelime olup,
asil sekli "samuz"dur. Bu kelime Kuca'nin batisinda ortaya cikmistir. Onun
izlerine hala rastlanir. Bu oyun vahsi hayvan sekilleri iceren maskeler
takilarak oynanir. Ya da yoldan gecen kisiye camur atarak, su sicratarak
veya elle salma (tas atilan uzun bir sopa), ilmek (insanlari boynundan
yakalamak icin kullanilan bir cesit sopa) alarak o kisiyi yakalayip saka
yapilir diye yazmistir. (A.Memtimin, Sin-jiangin T'ang Devrindeki
Nahsa-Ussul Sanati, s.75-86). Bu konuda Cince kaynaklarda buna benzer
cesitli bilgilere rastlanmaktadir.
Eski Turklerde yilbasi terim olarak mevcuttur. Cince kaynaklarda
kaydedilen ve Cinlilerce "Mao-shih" olrak telaffuz edilen bir terim
bulunmaktadir. Hsin-Tang-shu Hui-he-chuan (Yeni Tang Sulalesi Tarihi)
Uygurlar Tezkiresinde "Hakaslar (Kirgizlar) yilbasini "Mao-shih-ai"
diyorlar, uc ayi bir mevsim kabul ediyorlar. 12 Hayvanli Turk takvimini
kullaniyorlar" diye kaydetmektedir (Hsin-T'ang-shu, 1975:6147).
Yine ayni eserde bu terimi aciklamak icin Hsuan-yu-chi adli kitabi da
belirterek "Hakas halklari yilbasina Mao-shih-ai" diyorlar, ay'a da "ai"
diyorlar. Her uc ayi bir mevsim olarak kabul ederler" diye yazmaktadir
(Hsin-Tang-shu, 1975:6152)
Cince kaynaklarinda kaydedilen "Mao-shih-ai" terimi icin Prof Cay
"muz ay/Buz ay" gibi aciklamalarda bulunmustur. (Cay, 1985, 41). Bu konuda
Prof Dr Ahmet Bican Ercilasun ise "Mao-shih" teriminin basyil/bas jil
olabilecegini dusunmektedir.
Yine Hsin-T'ang-shu'da Hakaslarin dil ve yazilarinin Uygurlar ile
tamamiyla ayni oldugu kaydedilmektedir. (Hsin-T'ang-shu, 1975:6148). Bu
kaynaga gore, Uygurlarin da yilbasi terimi icin Mao-shih-ai yani
mao-shih-ay demesi muhtemeldir.
Gunumuz Uygurlari arasinda Nevruz Soleni ile ilgili faaliyetler su
sekilde cereyan eder: Nevruz baslamadan once insanlar, yeni yilin serefine
sevinc duygusunu ifade eden cesitli siirler, sarkilar (Nevruzname) yazip
hazirlarlar. Nevruz gunu insanlar bayramlik elbiselerini giyerek tum
evleri, kutsal yerleri, mesire yerlerini, alis veris merkezleri kisaca vb
yerleri ziyaret ederler. Bu arada meydanlarda siir atismalari, milli
oyunlar icra edilir. Sarkilar soylenir, danslar edilir, guresler
tutulur... Kisaca herkes kendine has becerisini ortaya koyar. Bu
faaliyetlere buyuk kucuk herkes katilir. Ayrica bu gunde herkes gucu
yettigi kadar birbirine cesitli hediyeler verir. O gun buyuk bir coskuyla
kutlanir. Diger taraftan bu gunde okunan "Nevruznameler"de gencleri ilim
ogrenmeye tesvik, ahlakli ve faziletli olmak gibi cesitli temalar islenir.
Buna iliskin ornek verecek olursak:
Keliptur hus mubarek usbu kun yaranler-yaranler
Acab muzluk darahlarni yarar kun-tunda boranlar
Tariaddut birla maktapta okup, oglanlar-oglanlar
Bolup bir kuni alamda zor insanlar - oglanlar
(Ey yarenler iste hos ve mubarek gun gelmistir
Boralar agaclardaki buzlari gunden gune eritir
Okulda tereddutle okuyan oglanlar
Bir gun alemde buyuk insan olurlar)
Kaldi noruz kaldi bu gun, arisi bina atkili
Barca adam konlini sad - huram atkili
Har kisi mollisidin alsun dua konlini
Maripatka toldurup goli-gulzar atkili
(Bugun Nevruz gokyuzunde bir cennet yaratmak icin geldi
Butun insanlarin gonlunu sad etmek icin geldi
Her insan hocasindan dua alsin
Boylece gonlunu marifetle doldursun ve gonlunu gul bahcesine dondursun)
Nevruzda icra edilen faaliyetlerin dile getirildigi bir diger siir de
soyledir:
At binip oglak alip mesrep kilur kundur bu kun
Keldi noruz yilbasi ketdi konlinun cirkini
Noruz diban kilurler hatunlarinin Turkini
Meclis kilip aynasur acar konul mulkini
Kaygu mihnetler ketip oynasir kuntur bu kun.
(At binilip oglaklar alinan, cesitli solenler duzenlenen gundur bu gun
Nevruz geldi gonuldeki cirkinlikler gitti
Hanimlar Nevruz ile ilgili sarkilar soyleyip geliyorlar
Kiz ve oglanlar kulaklarina guller kistirip, takkelerini yana kaydirip
geliyorlar
Kurulan meclislerde oynanir oyunlar acilir gonuller
Kaygi ve mihnetin dagildigi gundur bu gun)
Bazi bolgelerde, Pamir eteklerinde Uygurlar arasinda Nevruz solenlerinde
"Kaplan" oyunu, "Aslan" oyunu gibi geleneksel oyunlar da icra edilir.
Kaplan oyunu: Bir kisi kaplan kiliginda bir maske takip iki Hoten
sapkasiyla kulaklarini orter. Elleriyle yere cokup, dort ayakli olur ve
kaplan hareketlerinin taklidini yapar. Elinde kirmizi bir gul tutan bir
diger kisi de onun hareketlerine yon vererek onu dans ettirir. Bu arada
coban ravabi (bir Uygur halk calgisi) ile balman (yine Uygur halk calgisi)
ve tef ahenkli olarak calinir. Oyunun sonunda kaplan kiligina giren kisi
maskesini cikarir ve ona kirmizi bir gul takdim edilir.
Yine bazi bolgelerde "Argimak" oyunu oynanir. Yeni elbiselerini
giymis olan bir kimse, tahta bir at ile meydana girer. O anda sazla tempo
tutulur. Bu oyunlarda kotu kis sartlarini kovma bahari karsilama ana
temasidir.
Nevruzda torenler tamamlandiktan sonra, insanlar bir araya gelir ve
arpa, bugday, misir, nohut, fasulya, kurutulmus erik, igde, salgam,
sarmasak, et gibi malzemeler karistirilarak ve goce ya da un katilarak
pisirilmis olan "Nevruz Asi"ni yerler. Nevruz Asi genelde "Abesan" adiyla
anilir ve herkes gucu yettigi oranda bu asin hazirlanmasina katkida
bulunur. Bu as meydanda bulunan herkese ikram olunur.
Nevruz Asinin hazirlanmasi ile ilgili siirde bu durum soyle dile
getirilir:
Tapkini koy kelturur
Topalmigan coce horuz
Tapkini gul kelturur
Topalmigan bir bas piyas.
(Bulursan koyun getir
Bulamaz isen pilic getir
En guzelini bulabilen getirir
Bulamazsa bir bas sogan getirir.)
Nizameddin Huseyin'in belirttiginr gore: Uygurlarda Nevruz kutlamalariyla
ilgili duzenlemeler "Tokuz kilik" ya da "Tokuz Ogul" ananesi cercevesinde
gelismektedir. Eskiden beri bu ananeler devam etmektedir. Bu ananeler
asagida toplu olarak verilmistir:
BIRINCI ANANE: Nevruz gunu her misafire sofra kurulur. Bu gunde
misafirlere yemek ikram etmenin onemi cok buyuktur. Yemekten sonra Nevruz
ayini yapilir. Ayin bittikten sonra, "yeni yasin kutlu olsun" denilerek
insanlar birbirlerini tebrik ederler. Birlikte yenilip, birlikte icilen,
birlikte dua edilen ve saygi ve sevgi icerisinde gerceklesen bu durum
"Nevruz Ayinine Cikmak" olarak tabir edilir. Bu, "Tokuz kilik"in ilkini
olusturur.
IKINCI ANANE: Insanlar, aralarindan ayrilmis olan buyuklerinin kabirlerini
ziyaret ederler.
UCUNCU ANANE: Insanlarin birbirini ziyaret etmeleri, yardima muhtaclara
yardim etmeleri, hastalari ziyaret etmeleri kotu is ve hareketleri
olanlara nasihat etmeleridir. Buna "Nevruz Gezisi" adi da verilir.
DORDUNCU ANANE: Butun yerlesim birimlerinde, Nevruz oyunlari cocuk, genc,
yasli, orta yasli insanlarin temsilcileri tarafindan sergilenir. Herkes
bildigi nispette hunerini gosterir. Kimi siir okur, kimi dans eder.
Nizameddin Huseyin'in belirttigine gore Uygurlar arasinda 50den fazla
"Nevruz gosterisi turu", 70den fazla da "Nevruz Namesi" vardir. Nevruzda
oynanan oyunlar icinde: Bori ile Koy (Kurt ile Kuzu), Oglak, Kucung yetse
al (Top kapmaca), Oyuncu Sir (Oyuncu Aslan), Heyyar (Komedyen), od atlas
(atesten atlama), Talasma (Kopek dogusu), Ususme (Koc dogusturme), Cokusma
(Horoz, keklik vb dogusu), Cepic (yaris), Gul mesuk (Gul ile asik), Koglas
(kiz kovalama), Mukumukus (saklmabac), Kokles (uzun atlama), Kos Koklas
(Kosup kovalama), Doram (Taklit), Celisis (Gures), Tatismak (Ip cekme
yarisi), Darbazlik (Cambazlik), Suret (Taklit), Dum-Dum (Bir tekerleme
oyunu) gibi oyunlar asil olarak sayiliyordu. Nevruz nameleri ise Koklem Ay
Keldi Noruzgul, anam-anam, Hizir-Noruz, Cihan Canan gibi nagmelerden
olusmaktadir. Nevruz ayinin ilk yedi gunu bu tur cesitli etkinliklerin yer
aldigi torenler, solenler duzenlenir.
BESINCI ANANE: Uygurlarin ananeleri icinde Nevruz gezmelerinin ayri bir
degeri vardir. Her Nevruz'da at seylisi (at gezisi), Bezme seylisi
(Muzikli oturma gezisi), Dag seylisi (Dag gezisi) gibi cesitli faaliyetler
duzenlenir.
ALTINCI ANANE: Nevruzda "Hikaye-Destan" gunu tertip edilir, sarayda,
avluda meydanda toplanan halka Bilim adamlari Nevruziye destanlarini
anlatir. 1983 yilinda Yarkend'in Telebag kasbasinda duzenlenen bir Nevruz
soleninde siir okuyan edebiyat meraklisi Abdurrahman Emin'in
"Nevruziye"sine ait bir bolum soyledir:
Yaslik her kisinin gulistan cagi
(Genclik her kisinin Gulistan cagi)
Her tanda bulbulun navakes cagi
(her sabah bulbulun inledigi zaman)
Bir kaca sut bolsa bu omur digen
(Bir tabal sut olsa bu omur dedigin)
Yaslkin su sutun kaymaki yagi
(Genclik su sutun kaymagi, yagi)
Bahit yamgur emes kokten yagarga
(Mutluluk yagmur degil ki gokten yagsin)
Tehi yerdin cikip sudek akarga
(ustelik yerden cikip su gibi akmaz)
Behit sunda ne kelse oz kolindin
(Mutluluk her zaman insanin kendi elleri ile yaratilir)
Tiris Tirmas yengilme oz yolundan
(Calis cabala yenilme kendi yolundan cayma)
YEDINCI ANANE: Nevruz kirginlarin baristirildigi anne babaya, ese dosta,
ahbaba karsi sayginin, hurmetin ve sevginin ifade edildigi bir gundur. Bu
gunde parcalanmak uzere olan aileler mahallenin ileri gelenleri tarafindan
baristirilirlar.
SEKIZINCI ANANE: Nevruz ayi zamanda ekonomik faaliyetlerin planlanip
programlandigi bir gundur. Yol, kopru gibi yerlerinin elbirligiyle
gerceklestirildigi, ekim hazirliklarinin yapildig bir gundur.
DOKUZUNCU VE SON ANANE: Fakirlere, kimsesizlere, yaslilara, ihtiyac
halinde bulunanlara maddi ve manevi yardim eli uzatilir. Yardim elini
uzatacak durumda olanlar, halleri vakitleri yerinde olanlar bunu bir borc
olarak telakki ederler.
Nevruzda yapilan butun bu 9 ananenin hepsinin toplumun maddi ve manevi
olarak refahinin arttirilmasi yaninda sosyal ve kulturel bir yonu de
vardir. Yukarida belirtildigi uzere, Uygurlar da diger Turk topluluklari
gibi cok eski devirlerden baslayarak yeni yil kutlamalarini Mart ayinda
duzenlemektedirler. Bu gelenek daha sonra dini, mitolojik, ve folklorik
bir ozellik kazanmis ve Uygur Turklerinin vazgecilmez adetleri arasinda
girmistir.
Cevdet Akbay
Cok garip bu insanlar! Daha cok yakin senelere kadar kutlanmasina dahi
tahammul edilmeyen bayramlar simdi milli oldu, herkes dun yasak olan
simdi millilestirilen bayramlari sahiplenmeye basladi!
Insanin tabiati, once yok etmeye calisir, beceremeyince de "he ya bu
bizim bayramimiz, bak atalarimiz da oyle kutlarlardi!" demeye baslarlar.
Anlasilmasi zor bir konu...
cevdet...
On 12 Apr 1996, Ilhan MITHAT wrote:
> In article <4kk0sl$e...@mn5.swip.net>, behrooz...@mbox200.swipnet.se
> (Behrooz Shajai) writes:
> Re: Kurtlerin NEVRUZ diye bir bayrami yok?..
>
> UYGURLARDA NEVRUZ KUTLAMALARI
> Nuraniye ve Erkin Ekrem
> Hacettepe Universitesi, Tarih bolumu
[silindi]
Hakan Basagaoglu
Behrooz, could you please also write them in Persian? It would be exactly
same? except neh will be noh, chil will be chel, just minor differences
in pronuncation, your name Behrooz is also Persian word, check it from
any Persian Dictionary,
: Count kurdish?
: Here it comes:
:
: Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des)
: 20 bist
: 30 si
: 40 chil
: 50 penci
: 60 shest
: 70 hefte
: 80 heshte
: 90 not
( Could it be English NOT??????)
: 100 sed (think obout the french cent)
: As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
:
My dear, if you want to make some comments please do it wisely, you are
black IGNORANT, what is your point, you copied Persian words above,
If some people can not use the circular stuff on their shoulder, they
really bacome so funny, do you know what I mean, Behrooz?
HAKAN
Mehmet Gokturk
(Behrooz Shajai) wrote:
Please Read the bottom part where i have my response
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[my first initial answer....to yekety...]
|In article <gokturk-1004...@192.0.2.1>, gok...@seas.gwu.edus says...
|>
|>In article <4khee0$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, yek...@aol.com (Yekety) wrote:
|>
|>|What does NEVRUZ mean? In Kurdish it means NEW-Day (New-year), what does
|>|it mean in the "PURE" TURKIC LANGUAGE???????????
|>
|>
|>My Persian is not that good but I know Nev means New and Roose means day.
|>Remeber Nevsehir ;)
|>As i KNOW the Numbers Yek-du-se-car-penc-ses etc.
|>
|>Don't worry, New York is not related with Kurdish Language, neither
|>bir-iki-uc-dort-bes-alti ..
|>
|>By the way can you count from 1 to 10 in Kurdish ?
|>
|>Thanks..
|>
|>mehmet
|>
|
[..then behrooz's answer..]
|Nevshehir is a persian-kurdish word not a Turkish one. That kind of words
you can find in old
|Turkish or as you say Osmalica.
|Nev(turkish deformation of New), Now(new persian), Nu(new kurdish)
New(the version in the
|bigingnig of a word instead of Nu) are iranian words.
|With Iranian I mean the land Iran not the state. Sehir (persian Shahr or
kurdish shehr) is the
|word for city or town. So please dont tell me that Nev shehir is a
Turkish word.
|Besides your osmanian forefathers had a lot of persian words in their language.
|
|Count kurdish?
|Here it comes:
|
|Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des)
|20 bist
|30 si
|40 chil
|50 penci
|60 shest
|70 hefte
|80 heshte
|90 not
|100 sed (think obout the french cent)
|As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
-----------------
Here are my answers :
-----------------
1- I DID NOT HAVE THE WORD "TURKISH" IN MY POST...this is important
2- I DID NOT CLAIM THAT NEVSHEHIR IS TURKISH (AS YOU DID..for your side)
3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDERS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS TURKISH.."
BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE PERSIAN
IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR KURDISH)
AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT KURDISH-
PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL MIDDLE-
EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
9- PLEASE TRY TO READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN FIRST, NEXT TIME...
10- CALM DOWN, I AM NOT GONNA BITE YOU..
PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
gokturk
Hakan Basagaoglu
MITHAT BEY,
Konuya referans zenginligi icinde aciklama getirdiginiz icin cok tesekkurler,
Bu sekilde cok farkli kaynaklardan bilgilerin derlenmesi cok guzel, ve
dolayisiyla bu tur yazilarin okunmasida bir zevk... Sirasi gelmisken
referansiz camur atmaya yonelik asagidaki yaziya herhalde pek bir yorum
yapmaya gerek yok,
Zamaniniz icin tekrar tesekkurler,
HAKAN
Cevdet Akbay (cak...@unix1.sncc.lsu.edu) wrote:
:
:
:
: Cok garip bu insanlar! Daha cok yakin senelere kadar kutlanmasina dahi
:
:
MITHAT
Basagaoglu) writes:
>
>MITHAT BEY,
>
>Konuya referans zenginligi icinde aciklama getirdiginiz icin cok
tesekkurler,
>Bu sekilde cok farkli kaynaklardan bilgilerin derlenmesi cok guzel, ve
>dolayisiyla bu tur yazilarin okunmasida bir zevk... Sirasi gelmisken
>referansiz camur atmaya yonelik asagidaki yaziya herhalde pek bir yorum
>yapmaya gerek yok,
(M) Hakan, sagol. Aslinda nete gectigim Uygurlar'daki Nevruzun tarihcesin,
Turk Kulturunde Nevruz
Uluslararasi Bilgi Soleni (Sempozyumu) Bildirileri
Ankara 20-22Mart 1995
adli ve Ataturk Kultur, Dil ve Tarih Yuksek Kurumu Ataturk Kultur Merkezi
Yayinindan alinmistir.
Yer azligindan bu makalenin sonunda verilen kaynak listesini (iki liste
Turk kaynaklari ve Cin kaynaklari olmak uzere) katmadim. Bu kitapta, diger
tum Turk ulkelerinde ve bazi Turk etkisi altinda kalmis ulkelerde
(Balkanlarda) Nevruz'un nasil kutlandigini, tarihcesini anlatan tebligler
yer almaktadir. Prof. Dr. Sadik Tural'in yayina hazirladigi bu kitabi
(Ankara, 1995) Ataturk Kultur Merkezinden, yayin no.100 ve Kongre ve
Sempozyum Bildirileri Dizisi Sayi:5 olarak istetebilirsiniz. Bilgi olsun
diye ben de kitapta yer alan makalelerin listesini yapiyorum. Enteresan
bulacaginizi sanirim:
Selam ve dostlukla
MITHAT
Prof.Dr. Sadik Tural - Sunus
Ayvaz Gokdemir - Acis
Ortak Bildiri - Turk dili konusan ulkeler kultur bakanlarinin Nevruz
(Yenigun) konusundaki ortak bildirisi
Turk Tarihinde ve Kulturunde Nevruz - Prof. Dr. Resat Genc, Ataturk
Kultur, Dil ve Tarih Yuksek Kurumu Baskani, Ankara, Turkiye
Turk Kulturunde Nevruz ve Takvim - Prof. Dr. mustafa Kafali, Ankara
Universitesi, Dil ve Tarih, Cograya Fakultesi, Tarih Bolumu Ankara,
Turkiye
Onasya Kulturlerinde Yeniden Dogus ve Turklerde Nevruz - Prof. Dr. Harun
Gungor, Erciyes Universitesi, Ilahiyat Fakultesi, Kayseri, Turkiye
Klasik Edebiyatimizda Nevruz - Dr. mujgan Cunbur, Ataturjk Kultur Merkezi,
Edebiyat ve Folklor Bilim Uygulama Kolu Baskani, Ankara, Turkiye
Nevruz Bayrami ve Carsamba Gunleri - Doc. Dr. Abdulkadir Yuvali, Erciyes
Universitesi, Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi, Tarih bolumu Baskani, Kayseri
Turkiye
"Dede Korkut Oguznameleri"nde Baskent "Surmeli" (Igdir Ilimiz) - Prof. Dr.
Fahrettin Kirzioglu, Ankara, Turkiye
Konya'da 1918 yili Ergenekon Bayrami - Prof Dr Saim Sakaoglu, Selcuk
Universitesi, Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi, Turk Dili ve Edebiyati Bolumu
Baskani, Konya, Turkiye
XIV - XV. yuzyil Edebiyatinda Nevruz ve Nevruziyeler - Prof. Dr.
Abdurrahman Guzel, Canakkale 19 Mart Universitesi rektoru, Canakkale,
Turkiye
Islam Tarihi Kaynaklarina Gore Nevruz Bayrami - Prof. Dr. Saban Kuzgun -
Firat Universitesi, Ilahiyat Fakultesi Dekani, Elazig, Turkiye
Nevruz Uzerine Bir Sohbet - Yard. Doc. Dr. Pakize Aytac, Gazi
Universitesi, Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi, Turk Dili ve Edebiyati Bolumu,
Ankara, Turkiye
Nevruz Bayrami Iran'da - Dr. Cevat Heyet, Tahran, Iran
Nevruz Gelenegi ve Azerbaycan - Prof. Dr. Kamil Veliyev Nerimanoglu, Baku
Devlet Universitesi, Azerbaycan Dilciligi Bolumu Baskani, Baku Azerbaycan
Tarihte Nevruz ve Azerbaycan Folklorunda Oldugu Degeri - Dr. Kadir
Golkarian, Tebriz, Iran
Eski Iran ve Azerbaycan Eyaletinde Nevruz - Dr. Habib Idrisi, Ataturk
Universitesi, Fen Edebiyat Fakultesi, Dogu Dilleri Bolumu, Erzurum,
Turkiye
Ortacaglara Ait Dogu Kaynaklarinda "Nevruz" - Dr. Akilbek Kilicev, Kirgiz
Devlet Milli Universitesi, tarih Bolumu, Biskek, Kirgizistan
Nevruz Bayraminda Nogay Halk Adetleri - Dr. Isa Indraliyev, Karacay-Cerkes
Cumhuriyeti Cerkessk ul. Kosmonartov, Dagistan - Turkiye Turkcesine
aktaranlar: Mariyam Bulgarova, Celalettin Erbay
Uygurlarda Nevruz Kutlamalari - Dr.s. Nuraniye - Erkin H. Ekrem, Hacettepe
Universitesi, Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi, tarih Bolumu, Ankara Turkiye
Uygur "Bahar Bayrami", "Ilk Yaz" Buku Kagan "Koken" ve "Yeniden Dogus"
Efsanesi, Prof.Dr. mehlika Aktok Kasgarli, PAris Fransa
tatar ve Uygur Turklerinde Nevruz Bayraminda Siir Soyleme Gelenegi - Doc.
Dr. Isa Ozkan, Gazi Universitesi, Fen-Edebiyat Fakultesi Ogretim uyesi,
Ankara Turkiye
Baskurt Halkinin Milli Bayramlar Sisteminde Nevruz - Prof Dr. Ahmet
Suleymanov, Baskurdistan Ilimler Akademisi Uyesi, Baskurdistan, Rusya
Karacay-Malkar Turklerinde Nevruz Bayrami - Prof Dr. Hamit Malkonuyev,
Malkar Arastirma Enstitusu, kabartey/Malkar RUSYA
Kafkasyali Karacay-Malkar Turklerinin Halk Takviminde Yeni Yil "Nevruz" -
Prof Dr. Ibrahim Samanov, Cerkezistan
Turkmenistan Halk Sufizmine Dair Notlar, Dr. Yasar Kalafat, Ankara,
Turkiye
Eski ve Ortacaglarda ve Gunumuzde Nevruz - Dr. Orazpolad Eke Baharli,
Turkmenistan Bilimler Akademisi, tarih Enstitusu, Asgabat, Turkmenistan
Turkmenistan Yazma Kaynaklarinda Nevruz Bayrami Hakkinda - Prof. Dr. Nazar
Halimov, Turkmenistan Ilimler Akademisi, Tarih Enstitusu, Asgabat,
Turkmenistan
Tarihten Gunumuze Dogu Turkistan'da Nevruz Kutlamalari - Prof Dr.
Abdulkerim Rahman, Turkiye Turkcesine Aktaranlar E. Emet ve A. Celikbay,
Cin Sinjiang Universitesi, Dil ve Edebiyat Fakultesi Ogretim Uyesi,
Sincan, Cin
Kirgiz Tarihi ve Nevruz - Dr. Olcabay K. Karatayev, Kirgiz Devlet Milli
Universitesi, Asya ve Afrika Ulkeleri Tarihi Kursusu Ogretim Uyesi,
Biskek, Kirgizistan
Kafkas Nogay Turklerinde Nevruz Bayrami - Doc. Dr. Ramazan Kereytov,
Turkiye Turkcesine Aktaranlar Mariyam Bulgarova, Celalettin Erbay, Karacay
Cerkes Cumhuriyeti, Cerkessk,Cerkezistan
Ozbekistan'da Nevruz Tekrar Halkin Bayrami Oldu - Prof Dr. Akhmatali
Askarov, Turkiye Turkcesine Ceviren Huseyin Ozbay, Taskent, Ozbekistan
Taskent Mahallinde Nevruz Bayraminin Kutlanisi - Prof. Dr. Ismail
Sahislam, Taskent , Ozbekistan
Amerika Kizilderili Kabileleri ve Turk Dunyasinda "Yeni Yil Basi"
Merasimlerinde Paralellikler - Dr. Ahmet Ali Arslan, Washington,U.S.A.
Orta Asya ve Balkan Destanlari Arasindaki Iliskiler - Albert Bates Lord,
Ithaca, New York, Turkceye Ceviren Metin Ekici,
Eski Turklerin Ergenekon'dan Cikis Bayrami/Sultan-Nevruz (21 Mart) - Prof
Dr. Neriman Gorgunay Kirzioglu, Ankara Turkiye
Uygurlarda Nevruz - Nizameddin Huseyin (ya da Xinjiang Ribao,
Yazar/Arastirmaci - Dogu Turkistan) Turkiye Turkcesine Aktaranlar:
Nuraniye Ekrem, Reside Gurses), Dogu Turkistan, CIN
Kazakistan'da Nevruz Kutlamalari, Doc Dr. Totay Tacioglu Tuzlugul,
Kazakistan Temsilcisi, Turkiye Turkcesine Aktaranlar Mariyam Bulgarova,
Celalettin Erbay
Nevruz Kutlamalarinda Muzik - Ogun Atilla Budak, Ataturk Kultur Merkezi,
Ankara Turkiye
Behrooz Shajai
Behrooz, could you please also write them in Persian? It would be exactly
same? except neh will be noh, chil will be chel, just minor differences
in pronuncation, your name Behrooz is also Persian word, check it from
any Persian Dictionary,
: Count kurdish?
: Here it comes:
:
: Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des)
: 20 bist
: 30 si
: 40 chil
: 50 penci
: 60 shest
: 70 hefte
: 80 heshte
: 90 not
( Could it be English NOT??????)
: 100 sed (think obout the french cent)
: As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
:
My dear, if you want to make some comments please do it wisely, you are
black IGNORANT, what is your point, you copied Persian words above,
If some people can not use the circular stuff on their shoulder, they
really bacome so funny, do you know what I mean, Behrooz?
HAKAN
Yes, Hakan the Kurdish numerals are pronounced almost like the persians. It is because
Persian and Kurdish belong the same language family. But your Turkish language is an
Mongolian language, unlike the Kurdish.
But the question is if a Kurd can understand persian. Not. They are different languages in
spite of the fact that they belong same language family.
Yes my name is a persian word. Beh(Good) Rooz(day), it means happy. I cant deny it. It is
because it is difficult to choose a Kurdish name in Iran.
later
Hakan Basagaoglu
: In article <4km643$e...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez06...@dale.ucdavis.edu says...
<HB>
I do not claim that Persian and Turkish are in the same language familiy,
Turkish is involved in Ural-altaic language family, however, there are
more than 2,000 common words in Turkish and Persian languages, at least 2,500
commom words between Hungarian and Turkish, but we can not understand
each other becasue of diffrences in pronouncation but more
significantly, diffrences in grammer rules, I mean completely different.
As far as I know, not only numbers but many words are same in
Persian_Kurdish languages, grammer rules are also almost same, most of the
sentences in Kurdish is just a replicant of sentences in Persian, and
mixing up with some Arabic words.
My point is that;
1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
more
words derived from Russian and Persian, and we call it Azeri Turkish, and
you are speaking almost persian language with completely diffrenet
dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
2)Do not claim immediately Nevsehir is a Kurdish word, we do not claim
it is a Turkish origon, but I belived that it is a Persian word, remeber
that Persian language was preferred in almost all poems after 15th
century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
words.
:
: But the question is if a Kurd can understand persian. Not. They are different languages in
: spite of the fact that they belong same language family.
: Yes my name is a persian word. Beh(Good) Rooz(day), it means happy. I cant deny it. It is
: because it is difficult to choose a Kurdish name in Iran.
Why this is so?
:
:
:
: later
:
I remember this signature well, this is exactly same signature that our
silly Greek guy (bencls or something like that) has. Is it just a coincidence?
Or you have a team work here.
HAKAN
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Behrooz Shajai
Thanks..
mehmet
[..then behrooz's answer..]
|Count kurdish?
|Here it comes:
|
|Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des)
|20 bist
|30 si
|40 chil
|50 penci
|60 shest
|70 hefte
|80 heshte
|90 not
|100 sed (think obout the french cent)
|As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
-----------------
Here are my answers :
-----------------
1- I DID NOT HAVE THE WORD "TURKISH" IN MY POST...this is important
First of all you don't need write it in cap.
You say it know, because everyone knows it is not Turkish
2- I DID NOT CLAIM THAT NEVSHEHIR IS TURKISH (AS YOU DID..for your side)
So mean also that Newroz is not a Turkish ceremony!
3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDERS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
You have problem with it?
5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS
TURKISH.."
BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
I meant it is not a Turkish word. It is an Iranian word, however. That is plain.
6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE
PERSIAN
IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
If you understand I mean that even your Osmanian fathers got influences from ther persians.
Know think about the word Nevruz in your litterature.
7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR
KURDISH)
AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT
KURDISH-
PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The rest is relics from
the iranian Azeri, before seldjuks occupied Azerbayjan(Azerpadgan: The place for fire
temples, an allusion to Mezdaism). However they are assimilied and they reckon themselves
as a Turkish people. About, the people from Turkestan, yes they speak Turkish languages.
How much is the differences between your Turkish and their Turkish, is not familiar to me.
But if you can german, i could say that the differences between Kurdish and persian is almost
like the differences between German and English.
If you want deny the Kurdish as a language, it is your problem. The only one who does it is
you and your Turkish Official Ideology.
8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
MIDDLE-
EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't have the
Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
gokturk
Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied Kurdistan who lodged their
brothers from south.
Besides your Turkish soldiers stole the aim which was sent to the area.
Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is ridiculous!
Behruz
Mehmet Gokturk
Turkish language is an
|Mongolian language, unlike the Kurdish.
We are not discussing Turkish here, btw, You should have said ALTAIC ...
|
|But the question is if a Kurd can understand persian. Not. They are
different languages in
Hmmm. Like Turks cannot understand Kazaks ? or what? show me by examples..
|spite of the fact that they belong same language family.
|Yes my name is a persian word. Beh(Good) Rooz(day), it means happy. I
cant deny it. It is
|because it is difficult to choose a Kurdish name in Iran.
Then what? What is Kurdish then? Don't get me wrong, i am trying to be
constructive..
thanks
gokturk (my name is turkish...)
|
|
|
|later
Mehmet Gokturk
| 1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
|Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
|more
|words derived from Russian and Persian, and we call it Azeri Turkish, and
|you are speaking almost persian language with completely diffrenet
|dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
|
| 2)Do not claim immediately Nevsehir is a Kurdish word, we do not claim
|it is a Turkish origon, but I belived that it is a Persian word, remeber
|that Persian language was preferred in almost all poems after 15th
|century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
|words.
|
EXACTLY...I agree with hakan..
thanks
gokturk
Mehmet Gokturk
|-----------------
|Here are my answers :
|-----------------
|
|1- I DID NOT HAVE THE WORD "TURKISH" IN MY POST...this is important
|
|First of all you don't need write it in cap.
|You say it know, because everyone knows it is not Turkish
I am getting angry you know. I wrote in caps. I know what that means..
what does "you say it know" means? It is not Turkish.So what?
That makes you happy right? Be happy my dear kid..
|
|2- I DID NOT CLAIM THAT NEVSHEHIR IS TURKISH (AS YOU DID..for your side)
|
|So mean also that Newroz is not a Turkish ceremony!
What's this now. Who claims that Nevruz is Turkish. It has been
celebrated among Turks also. I don't care about the original origin.
probably from assyrian times who cares. Don't make this "Temcit Pilavi"..
|
|3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
| IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDERS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
|
|4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
|
|You have problem with it?
No I don't . But it seems you have.... ;)
|
|5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS
|TURKISH.."
|BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
|I meant it is not a Turkish word. It is an Iranian word, however. That is
plain.
As i said. Does it make you happy? Why Turks bother you this much?
"Yedigi canaga sicmak" do you know what this means..It is a Turkish
proverb. Probably exists in Persian and Kurdish.
|
|6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE
|PERSIAN
| IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
|
|If you understand I mean that even your Osmanian fathers got influences
from ther persians.
|Know think about the word Nevruz in your litterature.
"NOW" You are writing like Greek guys, I am getting agreed with Hakan..
I am not denying the cross influences but look at yourself anything
Turkish makes you crazy. Why? Ask yourself...
|
|7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR
|KURDISH)
| AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT
|KURDISH-
| PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
|
|Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The res
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh really? They are iranian. You sound like a fascist skinhead. Who cares
for the origins. You know We have Black Turks in Torbali (town of Izmir)
yes, they are TURKS. Got my point? I bet no...
is relics from
|the iranian Azeri, before seldjuks occupied Azerbayjan(Azerpadgan: The
place for fire
|temples, an allusion to Mezdaism). However they are assimilied and they
reckon themselves
|as a Turkish people. About, the people from Turkestan, yes they speak
Turkish languages.
|How much is the differences between your Turkish and their Turkish, is
not familiar to me.
They are more different than Persian-Kurdish...Not to mention Uzbeks etc.
|But if you can german, i could say that the differences between Kurdish
and persian is almost
|like the differences between German and English.
Hmmmm.. Ich bin energy sparer.. I spend energy...;)
|If you want deny the Kurdish as a language, it is your problem. The only
one who does it is
|you and your Turkish Official Ideology.
Nope. Open any LAnguage book. Even posts from sck shows Kurdish is a subdialect
of PERSIAN. Look at those documents...please...
|
|
|8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
| DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
| LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
|MIDDLE-
| EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
|
|I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
have the
|Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
As i said, anything bad for turks makes you happy. Typical childish syndrome.
Who cares behrooz. Wake up. I am not trying to Burn down schools you know.
I am trying to build them..
|
|PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
| checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
|
|gokturk
|
|Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied
Kurdistan who lodged their
Waoowww.... Those schools burned down by PKK right? Those refugees stayed
in the schools and government buildings. It was the Kurdish population ha?
Get a life man.. Are you from the Moon? How much it cost to Turkey?
I am repeating if you don get it : GET A LIFE !!!
|brothers from south.
|Besides your Turkish soldiers stole the aim which was sent to the area.
|
Waooww... "my Turkish Soldiers" hmm..What did theydo with that "aid" (not aim)
? Stick to their proper places? Do you really believe in this?
|Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is
ridiculous!
You don't understand or brainwashed or full of hate (why?) or something
i can't imagine..But, yes In terms of HUMANITY and HUMAN RIGHT ISSUES
YES I CLAIM THAT WE _ARE_ BETTER THEN FRENCH...
We are not sucking the African blood, we are not making nuclear tests and
one moth later condemning china for their tests..We are YES better...
WE give IMPORTANCE to people (it was our fault!). jut read some history...
regards....
gokturk
|
|Behruz
Mehmet Gokturk
(Behrooz Shajai) wrote:
[...]|Orta Asya binlerce sene Iranin hakimiyeti altinda kalmistir. Orta
Asya [..]
Ne zaman olmus bu? Hangi Orta Asya? Cografya derslerini ektiydin galiba...
gokturk
Mehmet Gokturk
|>what does "you say it know" means? It is not Turkish.So what?
|>That makes you happy right? Be happy my dear kid..
|>
some kind of a subdialect
|for Turkish!
Where did I say such? I don't remember. I am aware of the fact that
Persian is a great and unique language. I like persian language and
Iranian guys/girls.
|
|So mean also that Newroz is not a Turkish ceremony!
|
Keep on going. As I said, "Be happy" if it makes you ..
|>What's this now. Who claims that Nevruz is Turkish. It has been
|>celebrated among Turks also. I don't care about the original origin.
|>probably from assyrian times who cares. Don't make this "Temcit Pilavi"..
|
|>Temcit Pilavi or not. It is not a Turkish ceremony. Before the Kurds
began to celebrate
Samething...;)
|Newroz in Northwest Kurdistan, you didn't care about Newroz. You claim that
UUpps. That's wrong. I was in Izmir/Tire in 1975 and we were celebrating
Nevruz. There were no kurds around. (maybe there were but who cares
who came from where unless you idiot guys brought the subject to this point.)
(It was NOT Hidirellez..)
Newroz is also a
|Turkish ceremony because you want take it from us.
We are not trying to take anything. Look at yourself, you are trying to
prove that nevruz is Kurdish. What's this now? Who is Dagli who is Bagci?
|
|>3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
|> IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDE
|RS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
|>
|>4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
|
|You have problem with it?
|
|No I don't . But it seems you have.... ;)
|
|You have problem with it!
What's that then? Tell me that i can learn it..
|
|5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS
|TURKISH.."
|BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
|I meant it is not a Turkish word. It is an Iranian word, however. That is
|plain.
|
|>As i said. Does it make you happy? Why Turks bother you this much?
|"Yedigi canaga sicmak" do you know what this means..It is a Turkish
|proverb. Probably exists in Persian and Kurdish.
|
|Do you want to prove your Turkish Civilization with slunders? I have
tried to pursue a polite
|discussion with you. So be self-controlled!
That is a proverb. It's not slang. And perfectly fits for this issue.
It is not directly related with bathroom issues. Answer the content
not the surface. ok?
|
|6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE
|PERSIAN
| IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
|
|If you understand I mean that even your Osmanian fathers got influences
|from ther persians.
|>|Know think about the word Nevruz in your litterature.
|
|>"NOW" You are writing like Greek guys, I am getting agreed with Hakan..
| am not denying the cross influences but look at yourself anything
|Turkish makes you crazy. Why? Ask yourself...
|
|That wasn't any answer! :-)
|
Where was the question? Look above, quesion was mine..(unanswered..)
|7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR
|KURDISH)
| AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT
|KURDISH-
| PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
|
|
|>|Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%.
The res
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|>Oh really? They are iranian. You sound like a fascist skinhead. Who cares
|>for the origins. You know We have Black Turks in Torbali (town of Izmir)
|>yes, they are TURKS. Got my point? I bet no...
|
|As I said before they are an Iranian people with an almost Turkish
language. Skeanhead or
|not, Azerbaidjan was a place for the mezdaists. Your Torbali Turks were
slaves. They are
|assimilied. If they reckon themselves as Turks, it is great. Be happy!
Slavery did not exist after Islam came. right? Remember Malcolm X..and
your French friends.... ;-)
|
|>is relics from
|the iranian Azeri, before seldjuks occupied Azerbayjan(Azerpadgan: The
|place for fire
|temples, an allusion to Mezdaism). However they are assimilied and they
This is becoming like Istanbul -> Islambol ;)))))
Behrooz! Let me say something.. "I DON'T CARE WHERE ARE YOU FROM OR WHAT
LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK AS LONG AS YOU DON'T BOTHER OTHERS" "IF YOU DO, I HAVE
THE RIGHTS TO TAKE NECESSARY MEASURES, EVEN FOR MY SON"
|reckon themselves
|as a Turkish people. About, the people from Turkestan, yes they speak
|Turkish languages.
||How much is the differences between your Turkish and their Turkish, is
|>not familiar to me.
|
|>They are more different than Persian-Kurdish...Not to mention Uzbeks etc.
|
|>|But if you can german, i could say that the differences between Kurdish
|>and persian is almost
|>|like the differences between German and English.
|
|>Hmmmm.. Ich bin energy sparer.. I spend energy...;)
|
|>|If you want deny the Kurdish as a language, it is your problem. The only
|>one who does it is
|>|you and your Turkish Official Ideology.
|
|
|>Nope. Open any LAnguage book. Even posts from sck shows Kurdish is a
subdialect
|>of PERSIAN. Look at those documents...please...
|
|What Language book?????!!!!! A Turkish one?? Don't be silly! Kurdish is a
westiranian
|language. But it doesn't mean that is a Persian subdialect.
I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY TURKISH LANGUAGE BOOK ON THIS ISSUE YET AND RIGHT
I DON'T BELIEVE THEM AFTER THIS POINT. LOOK BOOKS WRITTEN BEFORE
THE FIRST WORLD WAR...OR EARLY 20TH CENTURY..I am not silly,
It is under persian. I can't do anything. It might be taken as unique language
if you want to..
|
|8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
| DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
| LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
|MIDDLE-
| EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
|
|I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
|have the
|>|Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
|>
|>As i said, anything bad for turks makes you happy. Typical childish syndrome.
|>Who cares behrooz. Wake up. I am not trying to Burn down schools you know.
|I am trying to build them..
|
|You have the Occident complex! I didn't burn down schools. I am against
that kind of unnecessary
|destruction. But you are paranoid. (A TURKISH NATIONAL CHARACTER).
|
What is national character? Cursing on Turks is YOUR national character, right?
Hey, what is this YOUR and MINE stuff? I don't want this, you understand?
||PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
|| checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
||
||gokturk
||
||Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied
|Kurdistan who lodged their
|
|>Waoowww.... Those schools burned down by PKK right? Those refugees stayed
|>in the schools and government buildings. It was the Kurdish population ha?
|>Get a life man.. Are you from the Moon? How much it cost to Turkey?
|>I am repeating if you don get it : GET A LIFE !!!
|
|First of all PKK is not my organization.
I didn't say YOU did it.
|I was refugee in Turkey. So I know your hospitality.
|
You probably know. Where were you staying?
||brothers from south.
||Besides your Turkish soldiers stole the aim which was sent to the area.
||
|>
|>Waooww... "my Turkish Soldiers" hmm..What did theydo with that "aid" (not aim)
|>? Stick to their proper places? Do you really believe in this?
|
|I know this. I gave a lot of mony to your police-officers. You know a lot
of RUSVET!
Where did this happen? Why did you give it? You know taking AND giving it
Haram in our religon..
|
||Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is
|>ridiculous!
|>
|>You don't understand or brainwashed or full of hate (why?) or something
|>i can't imagine..But, yes In terms of HUMANITY and HUMAN RIGHT ISSUES
|>YES I CLAIM THAT WE _ARE_ BETTER THEN FRENCH...
|>
|>We are not sucking the African blood, we are not making nuclear tests and
|>one moth later condemning china for their tests..We are YES better...
|>WE give IMPORTANCE to people (it was our fault!). jut read some history...
|
|We see what you do with your Kurdish minority.
|Heheheh!!!!!
LISTEN: NOT ALWAYS THE RIGHT GUY WINS. IT SEEMS WE ARE LOOSING NOW.
BUT I REMIND YOU THAT THE WAR HASN'T STARTED YET. DON'T LAUGH !
PEOPLE ARE DYING THERE. THIS IS NOT A COMEDY. IF YOU THINK
IT IS FUNNY GO THERE AND FIGHT.
THERE WILL PROBABLY BE UN ARMED FORCES IN FUTURE IN THAT
REGION BUT THERE WON'T BE A CIVILIZED DEVELOPED SAFE PLACE
IN THAT REGION ANYMORE..IT'S GONE BEHROOZ. WE BOTH LOST...
take care..
gokturk
|
|>regards....
|
|>gokturk
|
|
|Behruz
|
|
|Behruz
Mehmet Gokturk
|Citizenship is not a sufficient criterion of certifying of peoples ethnic
origin.
|I have Swedish citizenship. Am I a Swede. Regarding to Swedish law I have
some [....]
Sen takildin kaldin etnik kokende...bak..Turkiye de rusvet verip kapagi
isvec e atmissin. Bana iskence ettiler de demissindir..ya da evlendin mi?
Takildin kaldin abicim ya.. Azeri vezeri ne farkeder? Turkce anliyorsun iste.
En azindan yari Turksun..Ananin babanin nereden geldigini mi arastirayim?
ben NAZI degilim, bana ne yav. Otur oturdugun ulkede, calis cabala uret.
defterdeki kagidi yirtip yeni yazmaya calismak caliskan ogrenci adeti
degildir..anlatabildim mi?
hadi selamlar (fazla uzattik, herkes anladi ne demek istedigimizi..)
gokturk
Behrooz Shajai
>
>[...]|Persian and Kurdish belong the same language family. But your
>Turkish language is an
>|Mongolian language, unlike the Kurdish.
>
>We are not discussing Turkish here, btw, You should have said ALTAIC ...
Right. Altaic, as the mongolian.
>|
>|But the question is if a Kurd can understand persian. Not. They are
>different languages in
>
>Hmmm. Like Turks cannot understand Kazaks ? or what? show me by examples..
Differences between Persian and Kurdish or Kazak and Turkish.
In the first case give me an example on English and I'll write both the persian and the Kurdish
variants.
>|spite of the fact that they belong same language family.
>|Yes my name is a persian word. Beh(Good) Rooz(day), it means happy. I
>cant deny it. It is
>|because it is difficult to choose a Kurdish name in Iran.
>
>Then what? What is Kurdish then? Don't get me wrong, i am trying to be
>constructive..
What do you mean "Kurdish then" ? You mean my Kurdish name?
Behrooz Shajai
>| 1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
>|Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
>|more
>|words derived from Russian and Persian, and we call it Azeri Turkish, and
>|you are speaking almost persian language with completely diffrenet
>|dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
>|
Turkish before. See my answer in the earlier articles.
>| 2)Do not claim immediately Nevsehir is a Kurdish word, we do not claim
>|it is a Turkish origon, but I belived that it is a Persian word, remeber
>|that Persian language was preferred in almost all poems after 15th
>|century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
>|words.
>|
>[...]
>
>EXACTLY...I agree with hakan..
>
>thanks
>
>gokturk
I didn't mean that Nevsehir is a Kurdish word. It is however an Iranian word. You can see it
both an persian and Kurdish word.
Behruz
Hakan Basagaoglu
: |Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The res
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In addittion to Gokturk's explanation;
Behrooz, I guess you do not know the difference between origon (ethnic) and
citizenship,
In Iran, Azeri Turks are Iranin citizen but their origion is Turks, those
people have really dignity, they know how to live in peace in Iran, they
never deny their culture and origion and also never pose a threat to Iran,
In Azerbeycan, Azeri Turks are again Turks and have Russian Passport, I
am not sure that at present time they have their own passport. In Kars
and Ardahan and around there are also many Azeri Turks, they are also Turk
and have Turkish Republic Passport. All those people they have kept their
tradation and cultures, and they never ever create any problems for their
countries. You can understand my point if you really know what is the
diffrence between citizenship and origon,
Have you ever asked yourself why those people are called as Azeri Turks
rather than Azeri Iranian?
Bahrooz we have a perfect proverb that fits pretty well with your reactions
and replies without thinking. 'Sazan gibi atlamak',
<Gokturk>
: |8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
: | DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
: | LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
: |MIDDLE-
: | EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
: |
: |I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
: have the
<Behrooz>
: |Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
<HB>
Complex syndrom? How did you reach this conclusion,
you are really making fun of yourself my dear,
(Continued below)
: |
: |PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
: | checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
: |
: |gokturk
: |
: |Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied
: Kurdistan who lodged their
:
: Waoowww.... Those schools burned down by PKK right? Those refugees stayed
: in the schools and government buildings. It was the Kurdish population ha?
: Get a life man.. Are you from the Moon? How much it cost to Turkey?
: I am repeating if you don get it : GET A LIFE !!!
:
: |brothers from south.
: |Besides your Turkish soldiers stole the aim which was sent to the area.
: |
:
: Waooww... "my Turkish Soldiers" hmm..What did theydo with that "aid" (not aim)
: ? Stick to their proper places? Do you really believe in this?
:
: |Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is
: ridiculous!
:
: You don't understand or brainwashed or full of hate (why?) or something
: i can't imagine..But, yes In terms of HUMANITY and HUMAN RIGHT ISSUES
: YES I CLAIM THAT WE _ARE_ BETTER THEN FRENCH...
<HB> Look Behrooz, you are really extremely fool than I had thought. May be
you remember when east and wet germany unified, west Germany did not let
east germany citizens move in west Germany for two-three weeks althogh
both of them are German. All those people stayed in tents for 2-3 months,
probably you know that West germany has better economy when compared to
Turkiye,
Recall what happened in Turkish-Iraq border, when Saddam bombed Kurdish
villages Turkey let those people to move in Turkiye, they were 20,000 people.
(First group was 20000, I guess Gokturk right, then increased up to 300,000)
Turkiye was not prepared such thing my dear, but helped all those people,
they stayed in tents for a short time, after that thay are moved to
governmental lojmanlar. Did you see those unused-clean lojmanlar after
three months, even if you put a pig there, I am sure that it would escape
immediately, everything was destroyed.In any rate, Turkiye provided them
with
accomodation and foods. What France did, they came there, they carried out
some medical test on them (those nice people trated those pesmerges like
lab rats) and those who passed those test (only those healthy people)
were then transferred to france (as far as I remember, not more than 100
so where is the rest, why those nice people did not take care of the rest,
whre was the Europe, where was all other contries who supports Human rights)
and they survived with horses and pigs
in ranches, but rest were in Turkiye. May be Turkiye must have said 'NO',
what do you think? Then nobody can judge Turkiye, right? You should be
thankfull, we trated Pesmerges as HUMAN not like lab. rats that French did.
If you had a dignity, I would not heard such silly comments from you,
As I told you, please try to think for a second, before posting something
here,
HAKAN
Behrooz Shajai
>|-----------------
>|Here are my answers :
>-----------------
>
>1- I DID NOT HAVE THE WORD "TURKISH" IN MY POST...this is important
>
>First of all you don't need write it in cap.
>You say it know, because everyone knows it is not Turkish
> am getting angry you know. I wrote in caps. I know what that means..
>what does "you say it know" means? It is not Turkish.So what?
>That makes you happy right? Be happy my dear kid..
>
I just want to certify the facts! It was you who began making persian some kind of a subdialect
for Turkish!
So mean also that Newroz is not a Turkish ceremony!
>What's this now. Who claims that Nevruz is Turkish. It has been
>celebrated among Turks also. I don't care about the original origin.
>probably from assyrian times who cares. Don't make this "Temcit Pilavi"..
>Temcit Pilavi or not. It is not a Turkish ceremony. Before the Kurds began to celebrate
Newroz in Northwest Kurdistan, you didn't care about Newroz. You claim that Newroz is also a
Turkish ceremony because you want take it from us.
>3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
> IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDE
RS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
>
>4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
You have problem with it?
No I don't . But it seems you have.... ;)
You have problem with it!
5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS
TURKISH.."
BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
I meant it is not a Turkish word. It is an Iranian word, however. That is
plain.
>As i said. Does it make you happy? Why Turks bother you this much?
"Yedigi canaga sicmak" do you know what this means..It is a Turkish
proverb. Probably exists in Persian and Kurdish.
Do you want to prove your Turkish Civilization with slunders? I have tried to pursue a polite
discussion with you. So be self-controlled!
6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE
PERSIAN
IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
If you understand I mean that even your Osmanian fathers got influences
from ther persians.
>|Know think about the word Nevruz in your litterature.
>"NOW" You are writing like Greek guys, I am getting agreed with Hakan..
am not denying the cross influences but look at yourself anything
Turkish makes you crazy. Why? Ask yourself...
That wasn't any answer! :-)
7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR
KURDISH)
AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT
KURDISH-
PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
>|Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The res
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh really? They are iranian. You sound like a fascist skinhead. Who cares
>for the origins. You know We have Black Turks in Torbali (town of Izmir)
>yes, they are TURKS. Got my point? I bet no...
As I said before they are an Iranian people with an almost Turkish language. Skeanhead or
not, Azerbaidjan was a place for the mezdaists. Your Torbali Turks were slaves. They are
assimilied. If they reckon themselves as Turks, it is great. Be happy!
>is relics from
the iranian Azeri, before seldjuks occupied Azerbayjan(Azerpadgan: The
place for fire
temples, an allusion to Mezdaism). However they are assimilied and they
reckon themselves
as a Turkish people. About, the people from Turkestan, yes they speak
Turkish languages.
|How much is the differences between your Turkish and their Turkish, is
>not familiar to me.
>They are more different than Persian-Kurdish...Not to mention Uzbeks etc.
>|But if you can german, i could say that the differences between Kurdish
>and persian is almost
>|like the differences between German and English.
>Hmmmm.. Ich bin energy sparer.. I spend energy...;)
>|If you want deny the Kurdish as a language, it is your problem. The only
>one who does it is
>|you and your Turkish Official Ideology.
>Nope. Open any LAnguage book. Even posts from sck shows Kurdish is a subdialect
>of PERSIAN. Look at those documents...please...
What Language book?????!!!!! A Turkish one?? Don't be silly! Kurdish is a westiranian
language. But it doesn't mean that is a Persian subdialect.
8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
MIDDLE-
EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
have the
>|Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
>
>As i said, anything bad for turks makes you happy. Typical childish syndrome.
>Who cares behrooz. Wake up. I am not trying to Burn down schools you know.
I am trying to build them..
You have the Occident complex! I didn't burn down schools. I am against that kind of unnecessary
destruction. But you are paranoid. (A TURKISH NATIONAL CHARACTER).
|PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
| checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
|
|gokturk
|
|Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied
Kurdistan who lodged their
>Waoowww.... Those schools burned down by PKK right? Those refugees stayed
>in the schools and government buildings. It was the Kurdish population ha?
>Get a life man.. Are you from the Moon? How much it cost to Turkey?
>I am repeating if you don get it : GET A LIFE !!!
First of all PKK is not my organization.
I was refugee in Turkey. So I know your hospitality.
|brothers from south.
|Besides your Turkish soldiers stole the aim which was sent to the area.
|
>
>Waooww... "my Turkish Soldiers" hmm..What did theydo with that "aid" (not aim)
>? Stick to their proper places? Do you really believe in this?
I know this. I gave a lot of mony to your police-officers. You know a lot of RUSVET!
|Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is
>ridiculous!
>
>You don't understand or brainwashed or full of hate (why?) or something
>i can't imagine..But, yes In terms of HUMANITY and HUMAN RIGHT ISSUES
>YES I CLAIM THAT WE _ARE_ BETTER THEN FRENCH...
>
>We are not sucking the African blood, we are not making nuclear tests and
>one moth later condemning china for their tests..We are YES better...
>WE give IMPORTANCE to people (it was our fault!). jut read some history...
We see what you do with your Kurdish minority.
Heheheh!!!!!
>regards....
>gokturk
Behruz
Behruz
Behrooz Shajai
Sence Turkmenistan, Tacikistan, Uzbekistan vb Orta Asya degilmi?
Behrooz Shajai
:
: |Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The res
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In addittion to Gokturk's explanation;
>Behrooz, I guess you do not know the difference between origon (ethnic) and
>citizenship,
>In Iran, Azeri Turks are Iranin citizen but their origion is Turks, those
>people have really dignity, they know how to live in peace in Iran, they
>never deny their culture and origion and also never pose a threat to Iran,
>In Azerbeycan, Azeri Turks are again Turks and have Russian Passport, I
>am not sure that at present time they have their own passport. In Kars
>and Ardahan and around there are also many Azeri Turks, they are also Turk
>and have Turkish Republic Passport. All those people they have kept their
>tradation and cultures, and they never ever create any problems for their
>countries. You can understand my point if you really know what is the
>diffrence between citizenship and origon,
>
I still claim that Azeris are a Iranian people by their origin. I don't talk about citizenship, turk
arkadas. I have already explained what I mean. And I'll say again. They are an assimilated
people of Iranian origin.
You must understand when I say Iran I don't mean the present state Iran, but the Iran as a
mosaic of Iranian people and that means: Persians, Kurds, Peshtous, Beluches, Lors, tajiks
etc.
But as you say the present fact is that the present Azeri population has a Turkish language.
I lived actually 7 years in Tebriz. My family lives still in Tebriz. The reason that I can a little
Turkish is because I can Azeri. I most say Azeri has still some fragments of the ancient Azeri
language which was an Iranian language.
>Have you ever asked yourself why those people are called as Azeri Turks
>rather than Azeri Iranian?
Citizenship is not a sufficient criterion of certifying of peoples ethnic origin.
I have Swedish citizenship. Am I a Swede. Regarding to Swedish law I have some rights
which is specified for my origin: Studying my hometang at school. But Kurds in their own
country can't study their language. That is your interpretation of equal citizen rights.
>Bahrooz we have a perfect proverb that fits pretty well with your reactions
>and replies without thinking. 'Sazan gibi atlamak',
Yea! You have many proverbs!
Gokturk>
|8- DOES IT MAKE YOU EUROPEAN IF YOU SPEAK 'INDO EUROPEAN LANG'
| DON'T FORGET POOR INDIA ALSO SPEAKS INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE..
| LANGUAGE IS ONLY A TOOL. IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOOD..YOU ARE STILL
|MIDDLE-
| EAST GUY...WHATEVER YOU SPEAK..;)
|
|I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
have the
<Behrooz>
|Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
<HB>
Complex syndrom? How did you reach this conclusion,
you are really making fun of yourself my dear,
(Continued below)
So you dont have that Complex?
gokturk
1. They were not Peshmergas. I still don't understand why you use that word. Pershmerga is a
Kurdish Guerilla. But As you know the main part of them was women, children and other
civilians.
2. The reason which forced you to say YES was the world opinion. They waited there several
days before you said yes. I still claim that the main aid came from the Kurdish population in
Northwest or your Southeast.
>As I told you, please try to think for a second, before posting something
>here,
>
>HAKAN
Behruz
Behrooz Shajai
|Citizenship is not a sufficient criterion of certifying of peoples ethnic
origin.
|I have Swedish citizenship. Am I a Swede. Regarding to Swedish law I have
Sen takildin kaldin etnik kokende...bak..Turkiye de rusvet verip kapagi
isvec e atmissin. Bana iskence ettiler de demissindir..ya da evlendin mi?
Takildin kaldin abicim ya.. Azeri vezeri ne farkeder? Turkce anliyorsun iste.
En azindan yari Turksun..Ananin babanin nereden geldigini mi arastirayim?
ben NAZI degilim, bana ne yav. Otur oturdugun ulkede, calis cabala uret.
defterdeki kagidi yirtip yeni yazmaya calismak caliskan ogrenci adeti
degildir..anlatabildim mi?
hadi selamlar (fazla uzattik, herkes anladi ne demek istedigimizi..)
gokturk
English, please!
And I am not a half-turk. I lived in Tabriz, untill 1986. 1986-1987, in Turkey(Wan,
Istanbul[Taksim, Sisli, Kucukpazar, those cheap motels you know, Tarabya, Istinye etc.]).
I will not answer the rest untill you write on English!
Behrooz Shajai
|what does "you say it know" means? It is not Turkish.So what?
|That makes you happy right? Be happy my dear kid..
|
I just want to certify the facts! It was you who began making persian
some kind of a subdialect
|for Turkish!
I really don't remember if I said persian is a subdialect of Turkish. That is wrong I should say
you claim that Kurdish is a subdialect of Persian.
Where did I say such? I don't remember. I am aware of the fact that
Persian is a great and unique language. I like persian language and
Iranian guys/girls.
Yes, without Persian you don't have any classic litterature.
Are you BI?
|
|So mean also that Newroz is not a Turkish ceremony!
|
Keep on going. As I said, "Be happy" if it makes you ..
I am already happy. Hehehehe :-)
|What's this now. Who claims that Nevruz is Turkish. It has been
|celebrated among Turks also. I don't care about the original origin.
|probably from assyrian times who cares. Don't make this "Temcit Pilavi"..
|
|Temcit Pilavi or not. It is not a Turkish ceremony. Before the Kurds
>began to celebrate
Samething...;)
|Newroz in Northwest Kurdistan, you didn't care about Newroz. You claim that
UUpps. That's wrong. I was in Izmir/Tire in 1975 and we were celebrating
Nevruz. There were no kurds around. (maybe there were but who cares
who came from where unless you idiot guys brought the subject to this point.)
(It was NOT Hidirellez..)
Yea! I believe you!
Newroz is also a
|Turkish ceremony because you want take it from us.
Do you distort my text or have I written wrong?
We are not trying to take anything. Look at yourself, you are trying to
prove that nevruz is Kurdish. What's this now? Who is Dagli who is Bagci?
According you we are always DAGLIS. Yea you know Dag Turkleri!
|
|3- IRANIAN OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE CULTURE ETC. AS YOU SAID.
| IT BRINGS IRANIAN CULTURE IN THE BORDE
|RS OF TURKEY AND VICE VERSA
|
|4- persian->shahr , kurdish->shehr YEAH RIGHT !!!!
|
|You have problem with it?
|
|No I don't . But it seems you have.... ;)
|
|You have problem with it!
>What's that then? Tell me that i can learn it..
|
|5- YOU ARE SAYING ABOVE THAT "PLEASE DON'T TELL ME NEVSHEHIR IS
|TURKISH.."
|BUT I AM NOT SAYING SUCH, HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAYING THAT IT IS KURDISH
|I meant it is not a Turkish word. It is an Iranian word, however. That is
|plain.
|
|As i said. Does it make you happy? Why Turks bother you this much?
|"Yedigi canaga sicmak" do you know what this means..It is a Turkish
|proverb. Probably exists in Persian and Kurdish.
|
|Do you want to prove your Turkish Civilization with slunders? I have
tried to pursue a polite
|discussion with you. So be self-controlled!
That is a proverb. It's not slang. And perfectly fits for this issue.
It is not directly related with bathroom issues. Answer the content
not the surface. ok?
Turks in Central Asia don't bother me!
|6- YOU ARE COUNTING IN PERSIAN OBVIOUSLY MY OSMANIAN FATHERS HAVE
|PERSIAN
| IN LANGUAGE AND IT DOES NOT BOTHER ME. DOES IT BOTHER YOU?
|
|If you understand I mean that even your Osmanian fathers got influences
|from ther persians.
||now think about the word Nevruz in your litterature.
|
|"NOW" You are writing like Greek guys, I am getting agreed with Hakan..
| am not denying the cross influences but look at yourself anything
|Turkish makes you crazy. Why? Ask yourself...
|
|That wasn't any answer! :-)
|
Where was the question? Look above, quesion was mine..(unanswered..)
Your question was a rhetorical garbage! You answered yourself
.
|7- DO YOU CONSIDER THE AZERI LANGUAGE IS NOT TURKISH? (AS YOU DID FOR
|KURDISH)
| AZERI'S SPEAK TURKISH AND DIFFERENCES ARE MUCH MORE OBVIOUS THAT
|KURDISH-
| PERSIAN DIFFERENCES. NOT TO MENTION UZBEKS AND KAZAKS...
|
|
||Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%.
The res
| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|Oh really? They are iranian. You sound like a fascist skinhead. Who cares
|for the origins. You know We have Black Turks in Torbali (town of Izmir)
|yes, they are TURKS. Got my point? I bet no...
|
|As I said before they are an Iranian people with an almost Turkish
language. Skeanhead or
|not, Azerbaidjan was a place for the mezdaists. Your Torbali Turks were
slaves. They are
|assimilied. If they reckon themselves as Turks, it is great. Be happy!
Slavery did not exist after Islam came. right? Remember Malcolm X..and
your French friends.... ;-)
And how explain you the Black Moslems in USA. They was moslems before they went to
USA, wasn't they?
|
|is relics from
|the iranian Azeri, before seldjuks occupied Azerbayjan(Azerpadgan: The
|place for fire
|temples, an allusion to Mezdaism). However they are assimilied and they
This is becoming like Istanbul -> Islambol ;)))))
Behrooz! Let me say something.. "I DON'T CARE WHERE ARE YOU FROM OR WHAT
LANGUAGE YOU SPEAK AS LONG AS YOU DON'T BOTHER OTHERS" "IF YOU DO, I
HAVE
THE RIGHTS TO TAKE NECESSARY MEASURES, EVEN FOR MY SON"
Oh, please! Do take your necessary measures! Bother others, well I don't know. But obviously
I do bother you! :-)
|reckon themselves
|as a Turkish people. About, the people from Turkestan, yes they speak
|Turkish languages.
||How much is the differences between your Turkish and their Turkish, is
|not familiar to me.
|
|They are more different than Persian-Kurdish...Not to mention Uzbeks etc.
|
||But if you can german, i could say that the differences between Kurdish
|and persian is almost
||like the differences between German and English.
|
|Hmmmm.. Ich bin energy sparer.. I spend energy...;)
|
||If you want deny the Kurdish as a language, it is your problem. The only
|one who does it is
||you and your Turkish Official Ideology.
|
|
|Nope. Open any LAnguage book. Even posts from sck shows Kurdish is a
subdialect
|of PERSIAN. Look at those documents...please...
An Iranian language, but not a Persian subdialect, as I can see! You are damn obstinate! :-(
|
|What Language book?????!!!!! A Turkish one?? Don't be silly! Kurdish is a
westiranian
|language. But it doesn't mean that is a Persian subdialect.
I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY TURKISH LANGUAGE BOOK ON THIS ISSUE YET AND RIGHT
I DON'T BELIEVE THEM AFTER THIS POINT. LOOK BOOKS WRITTEN BEFORE
THE FIRST WORLD WAR...OR EARLY 20TH CENTURY..I am not silly,
It is under persian. I can't do anything. It might be taken as unique language
|
|I just wanted to mention that Kurdish is a Indoeuropian languge. I don't
|have the
|Occident-Complex syndrom as your Turkish fellows.
|As i said, anything bad for turks makes you happy. Typical childish syndrome.
|Who cares behrooz. Wake up. I am not trying to Burn down schools you know.
|I am trying to build them..
|
|You have the Occident complex! I didn't burn down schools. I am against
that kind of unnecessary
|destruction. But you are paranoid. (A TURKISH NATIONAL CHARACTER).
|
What is national character? Cursing on Turks is YOUR national character, right?
Hey, what is this YOUR and MINE stuff? I don't want this, you understand?
You began with Lousanne 1923. Now it is you an us! Sorry!
||PS: France took 75 Refugess when Turkey accepted 300.000 and they
|| checked the teeth of those 75, like animals..get a life...French..huh..
||
||gokturk
||
||Oh, you did not, it was the Kurdish population in Turkish occupied
|Kurdistan who lodged their
|
|Waoowww.... Those schools burned down by PKK right? Those refugees stayed
|in the schools and government buildings. It was the Kurdish population ha?
|Get a life man.. Are you from the Moon? How much it cost to Turkey?
|I am repeating if you don get it : GET A LIFE !!!
|
|First of all PKK is not my organization.
I didn't say YOU did it.
|I was refugee in Turkey. So I know your hospitality.
|
You probably know. Where were you staying?
Yes, I know, I had even to buy the book and the pencil to sign my name at Police Station,
every day! That is your hospitality
.
|I know this. I gave a lot of mony to your police-officers. You know a lot
of RUSVET!
Where did this happen? Why did you give it? You know taking AND giving it
Haram in our religon..
Oh, yes, Your people are great believer of Islam!!! They never give and take bribes(Rusvet).
You ask where and why? Well, honey, everywhere. At the station, city(you know Aksaray
where there was a lot of foreigners) Why? You ask me? Maybe in my residence permit, they
had written Musulman, and KURT in a parantes above!!!!
This is a funny story Mehmet! I most tell you.
When I came to Wan(Ok, you say Van) I went directly to the Police station, Yabanci
subesi(Foreigners). After Superintendent Mr. Ali Celiks many fists, they began to ask
questions. The first question was my origin. As other Kurds I said I am a Azeri. My name, that
was Ok too. Well I was so silly instead of my residence place I said my birth place. And it is a
Kurdish village near the Turkish border.
They looked each other. They knew thar there is not any Azeris living in my village. You'r a
Kurd, your pezeveng! Etc. ...
So I think I was the first person in Turkey with had the word KURD in his official identity papers.
Actually I was proud of it.
But it make problems in Istanbul and everywhere else too.
Mehmet I was 15. I'll never forgive your barbari.
|
||Tell me Mehmet, do you think you are better than the french`? This is
|ridiculous!
|
LISTEN: NOT ALWAYS THE RIGHT GUY WINS. IT SEEMS WE ARE LOOSING NOW.
BUT I REMIND YOU THAT THE WAR HASN'T STARTED YET. DON'T LAUGH !
PEOPLE ARE DYING THERE. THIS IS NOT A COMEDY. IF YOU THINK
IT IS FUNNY GO THERE AND FIGHT.
I don't know if you are loosing or not. But this time, as I have said before, if we go to hell, we'll
take you with us!
You mentioned many proverbs. Persians have one which I like: "My laughing is not of
happiness. Crying is not enough for my misery. That's why I laugh!"
THERE WILL PROBABLY BE UN ARMED FORCES IN FUTURE IN THAT
REGION BUT THERE WON'T BE A CIVILIZED DEVELOPED SAFE PLACE
IN THAT REGION ANYMORE..IT'S GONE BEHROOZ. WE BOTH LOST...
WE HAVE NOTHING OF VALUE TO LOSE MY TURKISH BROTHER(!),
take care..
OK, THREATEN ME!!
Cehennemde gorusuruz
Behruz
Mehmet Gokturk
|English, please!
|And I am not a half-turk. I lived in Tabriz, untill 1986. 1986-1987, in
Turkey(Wan,
|Istanbul[Taksim, Sisli, Kucukpazar, those cheap motels you know, Tarabya,
Istinye etc.]).
|
|I will not answer the rest untill you write on English!
Then don't..
Hope you see you sometime and have a friendly meal..(Istinye is not that bad..)
gokturk
Mehmet Gokturk
|questions. The first question was my origin. As other Kurds I said I am a
Azeri. My name, that
Strange..Are you Azeri or Kurd what? Why did you escape? Wy didn't you
escape to Russia or Cyprus. Hell, Turkey accepted you and you are cursing on
Turkey..That's what "yedigi canaga.."
[...]
|
|WE HAVE NOTHING OF VALUE TO LOSE MY TURKISH BROTHER(!),
|
As i said and everyone knows, these are the words of a loser or brainwashed.
anyhow, i am trying to be constructive and i will be..because I KNOW and
i am AWARE of the fact that we have BOTH values in danger because of this
issue. You may not know this. because you are Swedish now in Sweden
Azeri in Turkey right? We are not that kind of people...We are refusing
to write ethnic origin into Turkish Passport for these reasons. Yours is
a good example though if it would have been written.
I am not answering the rest someone else please..
Who is threatening who? Probebly we'll see each other there ..;))
gokturk
Behrooz Shajai
Then don't..
Yea!! Over my dead body when both of us are in the hell!
Cehennemde gorusmek uzerine
Behrooz Shajai
[...]
|questions. The first question was my origin. As other Kurds I said I am a
Azeri. My name, that
Strange..Are you Azeri or Kurd what? Why did you escape? Wy didn't you
escape to Russia or Cyprus. Hell, Turkey accepted you and you are cursing on
Turkey..That's what "yedigi canaga.."
[...]
I couldn't say that I am a Kurd. All of the Kurds from Iran says that they are Azeri, may Kabil(or
was it Habil?) brother! Just the word Kurd in my Ikamet tezkeresi created enough of problems
for me.
Turkey didn't accept me. They just wanna my and other peoples name for their(!) security. I
lived by my own money in Turkey. We even paid the policemans ticket from Wan to Istanbul.
So not a kurus, not a motelroom not any thing from Turkey. But we payed a lot of money to
your cups.
|WE HAVE NOTHING OF VALUE TO LOSE MY TURKISH BROTHER(!),
|
>As i said and everyone knows, these are the words of a loser or brainwashed.
>anyhow, i am trying to be constructive and i will be..because I KNOW and
>i am AWARE of the fact that we have BOTH values in danger because of this
>issue. You may not know this. because you are Swedish now in Sweden
>Azeri in Turkey right? We are not that kind of people...We are refusing
>to write ethnic origin into Turkish Passport for these reasons. Yours is
>a good example though if it would have been written.
I didn't say that I have my origin written into may Swedish Passport. But every child from
begining untill university has the right to learn and study his/her own language(2-3 h/w). It is not
a specific right for kurds, but for all those who have another motherlanguage than Swedish.
>
>I am not answering the rest someone else please..
>
>Who is threatening who?
You are taking "NECESSARY MEASURES" so I must take "CARE" of me!
Mehmet Gokturk
|So not a kurus, not a motelroom not any thing from Turkey. But we payed a
lot of money to
|your cups.
What does acceptance mean? US give greencard and expects people to do
their own. Do you expect Turkey would give your bus ticket to Istanbul to
send
you to Sweden and let you write these things now. No. My country won't pay
you guys..But I know people from Iran, making money in Turkey happily and
they have no problem whatsoever..
(COPS by the way)
gokturk
(PS: I did not mean you sw passport, i meant your old one in turkey writen
musluman-kurd thing, things will become like that if the existence of minorities
are written to the passports. I am also iritated from religion part
of the passports, it makes problems for non-muslims..)
Hakan Basagaoglu
Distribution:
Behrooz Shajai (behrooz...@mbox200.swipnet.se) wrote:
: In article <gokturk-1304...@192.0.2.1>, gok...@seas.gwu.edu says...
: >
: >[...]|My point is that;
: >| 1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
: >|Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
: >|more
: >|words derived from Russian and Persian, and we call it Azeri Turkish, and
: >|you are speaking almost persian language with completely diffrenet
: >|dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
: >|
: I didn't say that Azeris do not speak Turkish. It is some kind of Turkish. But they didn't speak
: Turkish before. See my answer in the earlier articles.
:
Which language were they speaking before? and who thought them turkish,
do you remember you had claimed Iran conquered Middle Asia one upon a
time, can we say that, Irania thought them Turkish (hani o from Mongolian
family), write something reasanble thing, my dear crpa-producer,
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
Distribution:
Behrooz Shajai (behrooz...@mbox200.swipnet.se) wrote:
: In article <4kq5k0$j...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez06...@dale.ucdavis.edu says...
:
: :
: : |Azeris are an Iranian people. Their language is Turkish, but only 80%. The res
: : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
: In addittion to Gokturk's explanation;
:
: >Behrooz, I guess you do not know the difference between origon (ethnic) and
: >citizenship,
: >In Iran, Azeri Turks are Iranin citizen but their origion is Turks, those
: >people have really dignity, they know how to live in peace in Iran, they
: >never deny their culture and origion and also never pose a threat to Iran,
: >In Azerbeycan, Azeri Turks are again Turks and have Russian Passport, I
: >am not sure that at present time they have their own passport. In Kars
: >and Ardahan and around there are also many Azeri Turks, they are also Turk
: >and have Turkish Republic Passport. All those people they have kept their
: >tradation and cultures, and they never ever create any problems for their
: >countries. You can understand my point if you really know what is the
: >diffrence between citizenship and origon,
: >
: I still claim that Azeris are a Iranian people by their origin. I don't talk about citizenship, turk
: arkadas.
Behrooz kocum, do you have any proof indicating that Azeris are Iranian,
when I was Iran I talked many many Azeri people there, thay all claim
that they are Turks, but they are Iran citizen.
Behrooz, during the Ottoman Empiror, northern Africa, Saudi Arabia, Balkans,
Southern Eastern Asia, almost half of Europe were conqured by Turks, but
now all those countries are speaking their native language. You again
conflict yourself, you claim that those pleases in X time of history,
were conquered by Iran, and also you claim that those people are Iran,
tell me who thought Turkish to those people, Iranian or Russian? Why do
they have still Turkish Culture and why do they believe Ergenokan. You
should get life. I wonder you are really adult, or you are using your
father account here.
I have already explained what I mean. And I'll say again. They are an assimilated
: people of Iranian origin.
Show us your proof,
: You must understand when I say Iran I don't mean the present state Iran, but the Iran as a
: mosaic of Iranian people and that means: Persians, Kurds, Peshtous, Beluches, Lors, tajiks
: etc.
: But as you say the present fact is that the present Azeri population has a Turkish language.
: I lived actually 7 years in Tebriz. My family lives still in Tebriz. The reason that I can a little
: Turkish is because I can Azeri. I most say Azeri has still some fragments of the ancient Azeri
: language which was an Iranian language.
:
You are confusing again, My dear, you claim that Kurdish is not
subdialect of Persian and it is western language. It is intersting but,
you are using exactly same number 1 to billion, Also, your words and
sentences just a replication of those in Persian. So what?
Another point, Iranian people can not understand Azeri Turkish but we
can, if it were some fragment of Iranian like Kurdish, Iranian people at
least would understand what they read. To live in Tebriz does not make
you Azeri or to feel like Azeri. Do you have any evidence indicating that
Azeri Turkish is a fragment of Persian?
: >Have you ever asked yourself why those people are called as Azeri Turks
: >rather than Azeri Iranian?
:
: Citizenship is not a sufficient criterion of certifying of peoples ethnic origin.
: I have Swedish citizenship. Am I a Swede. Regarding to Swedish law I have some rights
: which is specified for my origin: Studying my hometang at school. But Kurds in their own
: country can't study their language. That is your interpretation of equal citizen rights.
:
We had discussed all those things before. Like Iran,Turkiye has also
mozoic of many culture and groups, not only Kurds, therfore it is not
feasible to give all those group education in their native language. Now
you are Swede, now its your country, are you taking education in your
language now? You may know that, their economy and opportunities much
better than Turkiye!!!
: >Bahrooz we have a perfect proverb that fits pretty well with your reactions
: >and replies without thinking. 'Sazan gibi atlamak',
:
: Yea! You have many proverbs!
:
Yes, and they fit pretty well, dont you agree with me?
This is just my curiousity, why do you write your name in Turkish, like
Behruz?
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
Distribution:
Behrooz Shajai (behrooz...@mbox200.swipnet.se) wrote:
: In article <gokturk-1404...@192.0.2.1>, gok...@seas.gwu.edu says...
:
: [...]
: |questions. The first question was my origin. As other Kurds I said I am a
: Azeri. My name, that
As other Kurds you are Azeri, (bu adam cok komedi yada embesil), now he
started to claim Azeri's are Kurds, what else Behrooz, can we also say that
African-Anericans are colored Kurds.%^%$%$%$&^^T*&
:
: Strange..Are you Azeri or Kurd what? Why did you escape? Wy didn't you
: escape to Russia or Cyprus. Hell, Turkey accepted you and you are cursing on
: Turkey..That's what "yedigi canaga.."
Gokturk bu adam kimlik bunaliminda!
: [...]
:
: I couldn't say that I am a Kurd. All of the Kurds from Iran says that they are Azeri, may Kabil(or
: was it Habil?) brother! Just the word Kurd in my Ikamet tezkeresi created enough of problems
: for me.
: Turkey didn't accept me. They just wanna my and other peoples name for their(!) security. I
: lived by my own money in Turkey. We even paid the policemans ticket from Wan to Istanbul.
: So not a kurus, not a motelroom not any thing from Turkey. But we payed a lot of money to
: your cups.
This is your problem, bribe is everwhere, if you dont use your brain you
must bribe, we have a ver nice proverb again for you "Allah kazi da
yaratmis tilkiyide". If you look at around, you can see many Kurds
(Turkish citizen Kurds) were awarded scholarship for their grad studies
in europe and USA, you can find many Kurds working in government, you can
find Kurds in all part of Turkiye (did anyone force you not to live in
certain part of Turkiye), you can find many rich Kurds in Istanbul, some
have holdings and very good business. Nobody does not offer any favor
unless you try to grab it. There are many poor Turks and poor Kurds, does
not matter what their origin is, but you should try to learn to use
circle on your shoulder,
:
: |WE HAVE NOTHING OF VALUE TO LOSE MY TURKISH BROTHER(!),
: |
:
: >As i said and everyone knows, these are the words of a loser or brainwashed.
: >anyhow, i am trying to be constructive and i will be..because I KNOW and
: >i am AWARE of the fact that we have BOTH values in danger because of this
: >issue. You may not know this. because you are Swedish now in Sweden
: >Azeri in Turkey right? We are not that kind of people...We are refusing
: >to write ethnic origin into Turkish Passport for these reasons. Yours is
: >a good example though if it would have been written.
:
: I didn't say that I have my origin written into may Swedish Passport. But every child from
: begining untill university has the right to learn and study his/her own language(2-3 h/w). It is not
: a specific right for kurds, but for all those who have another motherlanguage than Swedish.
:
Not just for learning? Did you ask them to give you education in Kurdish
for your undergrad or grad studies?
: >
: >I am not answering the rest someone else please..
: >
: >Who is threatening who?
: You are taking "NECESSARY MEASURES" so I must take "CARE" of me!
:
: Probebly we'll see each other there ..;))
: >
: >gokturk
:
--
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
Behrooz,
Could you plesae tell me how come Azeris are Kurds? If you can prove it,
I am sure that you will be nominated for a Nobel Prize, you will modify
all sciences,and antropology, history, etc...
(Refer your previous mail, I pointed out your claim in that posting)
I am looking forward to hearing more incredible claims from you,
But please first think for ten minutes then send us something, if you
support your claims with some proof, we will appreciate it, because you
know we hear such things for the first time, I also suggest you to cross
post your messages to other turkish site (uygurs, Kazakh, Azeri (I am not
sure if it was established), may be they can learn more about their
origian, you know thay are Azeri, how can they know something about
Azeris history (yani ne alaka !! Azeri Azeri tarihinden ne anlar, burada
ceyrek Azeri, 3% Turk, 12 % Iranli % 35 % Isvec li ve gerisde Kurd olan
alim Behrooz varken), behrooz will provide a light
for mysterious in Azeri history, then everything will be crystal clear,
Have a fun my dear friend, let me ask your age, are you really above 15
yrs old?
HAKAN
Murat
> =
> Murat (Mu...@alkymi.unit.no) wrote:
> : Hakan ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ !
> : Genel olarak diller ilgili.
> : ozel olarak Farsca ve Kurtce ile ilgili,
> : gelenekler ile ilgili, "kultur" dedigimiz seyin ne oldugu ile
> : ilgili, yayilisi ile ilgili, politik manipulasyonlar ile ilgili
> : bilgilerini artirdiktan da sonra yorum yapmalisin.
> : Murat
>
=
> Murat, simdi sira benim, ve ayni seyi ben sana soyleyeyim,
> MURAT ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ,
OOO bir kizgin Turk daha!
Yarim bilgili Memo ne diyor "sazan gibi cirpinmak", bu deyim sana =
uyar mi bir sor bakalim MemoGokturk=B4e?
> Genel olarak diller ile ilgili imis, farsca diye Murat burada cikis yapmi=
s,
> Murat Farscayi oldukca iyi konusurum. Esimin Iran
> asilli olmasindan dolayi bu dile ve kulture senden cok daha fazla yakin
> oldum, (umarim kultur ilr rejimi ayirabiliyorsundur).
Kultur ile rejimi ayirmayi bir yana birakalim, sen bir seyi =
"bilmek" ile bir seyi "icra etmek" arasinadaki farki kacirmissin.
Ayrica senin benden "iyi" farsca bildigine dair nasil bu kadar =
emin olabiliyorsun. Senin iddiana gore Farsca (yada Turkce vs vs.) =
konusabilen bir kisi bu dil ile ilgili bilgilere de(linguistik =
bilgiler) sahip kabulediliyor, oyle mi?
> =
> Ikincisi eminim doguda senden daha uzun kalmisimdir, =
Hangi Dogu ? Neyin dogusu ?
Cografya yi da size gore mi belirliyelim?
Bu Etnosentrik girdaptan ne zaman kurtulacaksiniz?
Ayrica durmadan mesnetsiz varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun; beni =
tanimadan benimle ilgili kiyaslamalarda bulunuyorsun. Kaldiki =
varsayiminin dogru olmasi bile senin birseyi "bildiginin" kaniti =
olamaz.
dedelerim Kafkas
> lardan goc ettikten sonra olukca uzun bir sure Erzurum ve cevresinde
> ikamet etmisler, dolayisyla dogudaki insani da yasamini da cok iyi biliri=
m.
> =
Curuk argumanlar hakan, curuk . "Zirva tevil goturmez" lafini
insanlar iste tam bu nedenlerle soyleme ihtiyaci duyuyorlar.
> Sen benim soylediklerime cevap verecek bilgi duzyin neymis, yukaridaki
> iki satir laf kalabaligi yaparak AYDIN havasimi estirmeye calistin, yoksa=
"Aydin Havasi" ??
Bu sokak dilinde "kisa kes Aydin havasi olsun" ifadesindeki "Aydin =
Havasi" mi yoksa baska bir seyi mi kasdediyorsun?
> cok bos zamanin vardida klavye basinda parmak egsersizi mi yapmaya
> calisiyordun,
Bilgilerinin sinirlarini bilip yorumlarini bu cercevede yaparsan
seni kizdiracak tepkiler almazsin. =
Dil ve kultur uzerine bilgilerimizi artirmamiz hepimiz icin bir =
zorunluluk, senin yaptigin ise ilkokul duzeyindeki toplama =
bilgi ile ahkam kesmek olmustu; eh haliyle tutarsiz:zirva sifati =
uygun kacti.
> =
> Bos konusup, yazmaktan bos bir zamanin olursa Cevdet in homepage ile
> ilgili yazmis oldugum mesajda Kurt kulturu hakkinda yazdigimi oku ve
> birde bu tartismayi baslatan ilk mesaji oku. =
Peki ala "homepage" i okuyacagim. Ancak tartismayi baslatan mektubu =
okumam gerektigini dogrusu dusunmuyorum. benim derdim Eksik ve =
yanlisligi apacik bilgiler uzerine uzayip giden tartismalara =
katilmak degil, bu bilgi acisindan duzeysiz tartismalari, uslup =
olarak ta iyice duzeysizlestirenlere hafif bir uyari.
Murat
Eminim tartismayi baslatan o
> ilk mesaji okuduktan sonra azicik dusunebilen bir insan bu mesaj
> arkasindaki art niyeti anlayabilir, soyledigim gibi azicik DUSUNEBILEN
> INSAN,
> =
> HAKAN
Murat
>
> MITHAT BEY,
>
> Konuya referans zenginligi icinde aciklama getirdiginiz icin cok tesekkurler,
Referans ??
Halk dilinde soyle bir deyim vardir:
"Siracinin sahiti serbetci"
Daha Akademik yazalim; bol miktarda kaynak gostermenin bir hipoteze
daha fazla "dogruluk" kazandiracagini kim soyledi?
Lafi uzatmadan Poincaire in ozlu sozunu aktaralim da hipotezine
payanda toplamak icin cakil tasi toplayanlara bir hatirlatma olsun:
"Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones,
so is science made
of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of
facts is not necessarily science.
-- Henri Poincaire
> Bu sekilde cok farkli kaynaklardan bilgilerin derlenmesi cok guzel, ve
> dolayisiyla bu tur yazilarin okunmasida bir zevk... Sirasi gelmisken
> referansiz camur atmaya yonelik asagidaki yaziya herhalde pek bir yorum
> yapmaya gerek yok,
>
> Zamaniniz icin tekrar tesekkurler,
>
> HAKAN
>
> Cevdet Akbay (cak...@unix1.sncc.lsu.edu) wrote:
> :
> :
> :
> : Cok garip bu insanlar! Daha cok yakin senelere kadar kutlanmasina dahi
> : tahammul edilmeyen bayramlar simdi milli oldu, herkes dun yasak olan
> : simdi millilestirilen bayramlari sahiplenmeye basladi!
> :
> : Insanin tabiati, once yok etmeye calisir, beceremeyince de "he ya bu
> : bizim bayramimiz, bak atalarimiz da oyle kutlarlardi!" demeye baslarlar.
> :
> : Anlasilmasi zor bir konu...
> :
> : cevdet...
> :
> :
Hakan Basagaoglu
: Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
: >
: > MITHAT BEY,
: >
: > Konuya referans zenginligi icinde aciklama getirdiginiz icin cok tesekkurler,
:
: Referans ??
: Halk dilinde soyle bir deyim vardir:
: "Siracinin sahiti serbetci"
<HB>
Su it aponun ve surusunun serbetci sahiti kim acaba?
:
: Daha Akademik yazalim; bol miktarda kaynak gostermenin bir hipoteze
: daha fazla "dogruluk" kazandiracagini kim soyledi?
<HB>
Bie hoptez savunuyorsan key referenslari yakalamalisin, referans
zenginligi icinde vermen calismanin bence kalitesini artirir, bir konu
hakkinda cok fazla gorus okudugundan ve bunlari referans edecek kadar
ozumlediginden konuyu daha genis olarak ele almani saglar. Tezat dustugun
veya veya seni support eden calismalri okuyucuya iletirsin, okuyucuda
gerektiginde bu referanslarida inceleyerek konuya daha yakin olur, ve
zaman zaman da daha iyi feedback saglar. Yani isler senin iki uyduruk
lafinla degil, bir cok kisinin degisik basilmis yorumlari ile
degerlendirildiginde deger kazanir. Oyle dersine calimamis gibi 10 yas
alti cocuklarinin tabirleriyl degil, sana yalmis gelen bir seyi
refranslarla dusersen, daha yapici olursun, aksi takdirde sen camur
edebiyatina devam edersin,
<HB> Arkadas cok akademik yazmis! yani Allahtan akademik bir ortamdayiz,
olmazsak yutturacakti ha!
: Lafi uzatmadan Poincaire in ozlu sozunu aktaralim da hipotezine
: payanda toplamak icin cakil tasi toplayanlara bir hatirlatma olsun:
:
: "Science is facts; just as houses are made of stones,
: so is science made
: of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house and a collection of
: facts is not necessarily science.
: -- Henri Poincaire
:
<HB> Cok ilgili oldu, hemen konuyu bagladin, bir de uzun hava gecermisin!!!
Okuma ogudu veren Murat arkadasimiza daha oncede sordum, boyle yazmayi
nereden ogrendin diye, eger bize okudugun kitaplari yazarsan bizde
onlardan kacinalim....
Merakimdan sorayim, sanatiniz hep boyle akademik kicerikli yazilar yazmak mi?
Neyse ya, Murat benim daha ciddi islerim var, gitsen Mustafa Soysal a
filan yaz, es seviyelerde mukemmel diyaloglar cikarirsiniz,
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
kaciracak kadar ne sen nede mesajlarin maalesef benim icin onemli,
sen daha gecen ay sci.enrg.civil de alt.stupidty ye mesajin gonderilerek
dusunce yapin acisindan net te aptalligi tescil eden Murat degilmisin? Seni
korumak icin bir iki mesaj attik, ama saniyorum oy birligiyle aptalligin
onaylandi, sen burada yazmana devam eden, pek burada sana dokunan olmuyor,
yazilarin yine bir suru sacmalikla dolu, yine kavram kargasasi icindesin,
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
:
: > Murat (Mu...@alkymi.unit.no) wrote:
: > : Hakan ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ !
: > : Genel olarak diller ilgili.
: > : ozel olarak Farsca ve Kurtce ile ilgili,
: > : gelenekler ile ilgili, "kultur" dedigimiz seyin ne oldugu ile
: > : ilgili, yayilisi ile ilgili, politik manipulasyonlar ile ilgili
: > : bilgilerini artirdiktan da sonra yorum yapmalisin.
: > : Murat
: >
:
: =
:
: > Murat, simdi sira benim, ve ayni seyi ben sana soyleyeyim,
: > MURAT ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ,
Murat gercekten her yazinla alt.stupidty e gececek adamsin, Hakan zirva
tevil goturmez diye sazan gibi adlayan sendin, yine kimin hangi mesaji
gonderdiginimi karistirdin?
: OOO
bir kizgin Turk daha!
Adamin kendi cumlesini kendisine yazdim Kizgin Turk oldum, sen nesin o zaman,
kizgin x (her ne isen)
: Yarim bilgili Memo ne diyor "sazan gibi cirpinmak", bu deyim sana =
:
: uyar mi bir sor bakalim MemoGokturk=B4e?
:
: > Genel olarak diller ile ilgili imis, farsca diye Murat burada cikis yapmi=
: s,
: > Murat Farscayi oldukca iyi konusurum. Esimin Iran
: > asilli olmasindan dolayi bu dile ve kulture senden cok daha fazla yakin
: > oldum, (umarim kultur ilr rejimi ayirabiliyorsundur).
:
: Kultur ile rejimi ayirmayi bir yana birakalim, sen bir seyi =
:
: "bilmek" ile bir seyi "icra etmek" arasinadaki farki kacirmissin.
: Ayrica senin benden "iyi" farsca bildigine dair nasil bu kadar =
:
: emin olabiliyorsun. Senin iddiana gore Farsca (yada Turkce vs vs.) =
:
: konusabilen bir kisi bu dil ile ilgili bilgilere de(linguistik =
:
: bilgiler) sahip kabulediliyor, oyle mi?
Bu mesaj da alt.stupidty e aday, sen benim farsca bilgimi bilmeden boyle
nasil atip tutabiliyorsun, benim bu dili icra etmem icin siir mi yoksa
roman mi yazmam gerekiyor, Alim Murat biraz sacmaliyor yine...
: > =
:
: > Ikincisi eminim doguda senden daha uzun kalmisimdir, =
:
:
: Hangi Dogu ? Neyin dogusu ?
Kuzeyin 90 derece saat yonu, gunetinde 90 derece saat yonu tersi yonunu
kastediyorum, bilmem anlayabildin mi?
: Cografya yi da size gore mi belirliyelim?
Yok canim sen nasil istersen biz ona gore belirleyelim, yani artik
Avrupa ya dogu daki Avrupa Kuzey kutbuna da bati kutbu diyelim, eger yine
senin boyle parlak fikirlerin (!) olursa alt.stupidty den once buraya gec,
: Bu Etnosentrik girdaptan ne zaman kurtulacaksiniz?
Ne munasebet Murat Bey, sen bizi kurtracaksin, sen yeni yonler icat
edeceksin ya!!!!!
Birak kavram kargasiligi yapmayi, dogudan herkesin ne kastedddigni
biliyorsun, ay da mi yasiyorsun,
: Ayrica durmadan mesnetsiz varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun; beni =
:
: tanimadan benimle ilgili kiyaslamalarda bulunuyorsun. Kaldiki =
Bunu sen yapiyorsun, bana ilk mesaji ilginc yorumlarla yazan sensin, yine
mesaj sirasini karistirdin, Murat iyi ki bu mesaji yine yuzlerce sci.
gruplarina gondermiyorsun, yoksa halin yine dumandi....
:
: varsayiminin dogru olmasi bile senin birseyi "bildiginin" kaniti =
:
: olamaz.
:
Ama senin olur, beki sen beni tanimadan bana kitap oku, tevil goturmez
gibi 10 yas alti cocukalrinin kavgalarini hatirlatan satirlari niye
dusuyorsun?
:
: dedelerim Kafkas
: > lardan goc ettikten sonra olukca uzun bir sure Erzurum ve cevresinde
: > ikamet etmisler, dolayisyla dogudaki insani da yasamini da cok iyi biliri=
: m.
: > =
:
:
: Curuk argumanlar hakan, curuk . "Zirva tevil goturmez" lafini
: insanlar iste tam bu nedenlerle soyleme ihtiyaci duyuyorlar.
:
Dogudaki insaninla ic ice yasadigim mi, Kafkas ta goc etmemiz mi curuk,
curuk olan noktayi gosteremeyecek kadar basit bir yazim tarzi geciyorsun,
aslinda senden daha fazlasini beklemekte yalnis olur.
: > Sen benim soylediklerime cevap verecek bilgi duzyin neymis, yukaridaki
: > iki satir laf kalabaligi yaparak AYDIN havasimi estirmeye calistin, yoksa=
:
:
: "Aydin Havasi" ??
: Bu sokak dilinde "kisa kes Aydin havasi olsun" ifadesindeki "Aydin =
:
: Havasi" mi yoksa baska bir seyi mi kasdediyorsun?
Kendini AYDIN gibi gostermeyi hedefledigini kast ettim, boyle son
zamanlarda bir suru aydinlarimiz turedi, hic bir sey begenmez,
baskalarina ogut vermeyi seven, baskalarinin ifadelerini neden
gostermeden abuk subuk laflarla reddeden, ama isin erbablari ile
karsilastiklarinda da aptalliklari tescil eden BOS AYDINLARDAN bilmem
acik oldun mu?
:
:
: > cok bos zamanin vardida klavye basinda parmak egsersizi mi yapmaya
: > calisiyordun,
:
: Bilgilerinin sinirlarini bilip yorumlarini bu cercevede yaparsan
: seni kizdiracak tepkiler almazsin. =
:
Murat gercekten cok komiksin, bani kizdiracak ne laf ettin ki? Arkdaslara
senin mesajini forward ettim acaba kizacak bir sey bulabilrlermi diye,
Sana kisaca mesajlarini ozeti, palyacoya kimse kizmaz, sadece guler,
: Dil ve kultur uzerine bilgilerimizi artirmamiz hepimiz icin bir =
:
: zorunluluk, senin yaptigin ise ilkokul duzeyindeki toplama =
:
: bilgi ile ahkam kesmek olmustu; eh haliyle tutarsiz:zirva sifati =
:
: uygun kacti.
BOS AYDIn yine konustu, begendigim sana yalnis gelen kismi yazamiyorsun
bile, ama boyle iki uc satirla isi gecistirmeye calisyorsun, BOS AYDIN...
:
:
:
: > =
:
: > Bos konusup, yazmaktan bos bir zamanin olursa Cevdet in homepage ile
: > ilgili yazmis oldugum mesajda Kurt kulturu hakkinda yazdigimi oku ve
: > birde bu tartismayi baslatan ilk mesaji oku. =
:
:
: Peki ala "homepage" i okuyacagim. Ancak tartismayi baslatan mektubu =
:
: okumam gerektigini dogrusu dusunmuyorum. benim derdim Eksik ve =
:
: yanlisligi apacik bilgiler uzerine uzayip giden tartismalara =
:
: katilmak degil, bu bilgi acisindan duzeysiz tartismalari, uslup =
:
: olarak ta iyice duzeysizlestirenlere hafif bir uyari.
:
: Murat
Yani milletin akillisi sensin, senin uyarin olmazsa millet kor doguse
girecek, yakinda herhalde kendini peygamber filan da ilan edersin,
:
: Eminim tartismayi baslatan o
: > ilk mesaji okuduktan sonra azicik dusunebilen bir insan bu mesaj
: > arkasindaki art niyeti anlayabilir, soyledigim gibi azicik DUSUNEBILEN
: > INSAN,
: > =
:
: > HAKAN
Murat bence sen burayi bosver, sci.engr.civil den almis oldugun mesajlari
iyice degerlendir, ve acikcasi senin gibi BOS AYDIN lada zamanimi daha
fazla harcamak istemiyorum, sen en iyisi mustafa soysal veya hakki
kocabas a filan takil, nefis bir tartisma dizisi cikarirsiniz, yada
biliyorun nereye yazacagini!!!!!
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
Eger Murat nun un ve mast in Fars cadaki anlamlarini biliyor ve tarihte
Iran lilar ile Uygurlularin iliskilerini biliyor ise boyle bir soru sorma
geregini duymazdi, nitekim tarihte bir cok millet kulturel acidan
etkilesim icine girmisler ve kelime degis tokusu olmustur, ama Alim Murat
maalesef bunlari gorememis ve boyle bir soru sormustur, Murat bu tur
sorulari sadece soc. grouplara gonder sci. gruplarina gonderirsen duzyin
hemen tescil olunur, biliyorsun degil mi? Hadi iyi eglenceler,
HAKAN
EWRU
>Behrooz Shajai (behrooz...@mbox200.swipnet.se) wrote:
>: In article <4km643$e...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez06...@dale.ucdavis.edu says...
>:
>: Behrooz, could you please also write them in Persian? It would be exactly
>: same? except neh will be noh, chil will be chel, just minor differences
>: in pronuncation, your name Behrooz is also Persian word, check it from
>: any Persian Dictionary,
>:
>:
>: : Count kurdish?
>: : Here it comes:
Here some more:
>: :
>: : Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des
JU,dąde,hire,çor,ponc,$e$,howt,he$t,new,des
>: : 20 bist
20 vist
>: : 30 si
30 Hires
>: : 40 chil
40 çewres
>: : 50 penci
50 poncas
>: : 60 shest
60 $e$t
>: : 70 hefte
70 howtay
>: : 80 heshte
80 he$tay
>: : 90 not
90 neway
>: ( Could it be English NOT??????)
>: : 100 sed (think obout the french cent)
>: : As you see Kurdish is a Indoeuropian language unlike the Turkish.
>: :
>:
>: My dear, if you want to make some comments please do it wisely, you are
>: black IGNORANT, what is your point, you copied Persian words above,
>:
>: If some people can not use the circular stuff on their shoulder, they
>: really bacome so funny, do you know what I mean, Behrooz?
>:
>: HAKAN
>:
>:
>: Yes, Hakan the Kurdish numerals are pronounced almost like the persians. It is because
>: Persian and Kurdish belong the same language family. But your Turkish language is an
>: Mongolian language, unlike the Kurdish.
><HB>
>I do not claim that Persian and Turkish are in the same language familiy,
>Turkish is involved in Ural-altaic language family, however, there are
>more than 2,000 common words in Turkish and Persian languages, at least 2,500
>commom words between Hungarian and Turkish, but we can not understand
>each other becasue of diffrences in pronouncation but more
>significantly, diffrences in grammer rules, I mean completely different.
You shoul say, there are more than couple of thousand Persian, an
Kurdish vord in the turkish language. and olso you should remember
there are lots of turkish vor been produced from persian or kurdish
vord.
like: Hefteh= hafta
Çar-yek= çeyrek
Serxwe$=sarho$
Çorçovę çerçeve
Xani(khani) hane
seraw(b)=$arab
Most funny one vould be KÜTÜPHANE, KÜTÜB in arabik (BOOKS) hane in
kurdi$(KHANE) -home- KÜTÜPHANE in turkish(?) librarei
what a combination
>As far as I know, not only numbers but many words are same in
>Persian_Kurdish languages, grammer rules are also almost same, most of the
>sentences in Kurdish is just a replicant of sentences in Persian, and
>mixing up with some Arabic words.
The Kurddish and persąan gramer are completly different, Its not like
Azeri and Turkish, You will be surprise how litle arabic vord in
kurdish if you compare to the turkish. One could not say that lots of
persian vord are in kurdish, if he/she understand litel bit
linguistic, lets count how many german vord are in english, or wich
one come from others? It is perfectly okay persian and kurdish
language have same or similar vords. thats what make language to be
belong to same lang. family.
>My point is that;
> 1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
>Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
>more
Azeri does not speake turkish they are speake azeri language, which
blong to same languge family that turkish blong to. like
Kirgiz,tajik.ozbek,atc. Ther is no language known azeri turkis, There
are, azeri language and turkish language.
>words derived from Russian and Persian, and we call it Azeri Turkish, and
>you are speaking almost persian language with completely diffrenet
>dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
How come one could speake one language with COMPLEATLY diffirint
dialect and still could be same language. if it is completly
diffirent what make it dialect.
> 2)Do not claim immediately Nevsehir is a Kurdish word, we do not claim
>it is a Turkish origon, but I belived that it is a Persian word, remeber
>that Persian language was preferred in almost all poems after 15th
>century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
>words.
I can understand you, it is quite right to say persian in turkish
instade of say kurdish. even exectly same vord. I can not see on any
vord write made in .....
If vord originaly belong to one language. it is end of story.!
>:
>: But the question is if a Kurd can understand persian. Not. They are different languages in
>: spite of the fact that they belong same language family.
>: Yes my name is a persian word. Beh(Good) Rooz(day), it means happy. I cant deny it. It is
>: because it is difficult to choose a Kurdish name in Iran.
>Why this is so?
>
>:
>:
>:
>: later
>:
>I remember this signature well, this is exactly same signature that our
>silly Greek guy (bencls or something like that) has. Is it just a coincidence?
>Or you have a team work here.
>HAKAN
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>:
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mehmet Gokturk
||>Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
|
^^^^
me and hakan
[...]
Mehmet Gokturk
|Most funny one vould be KÜTÜPHANE, KÜTÜB in arabik (BOOKS) hane in
|kurdi$(KHANE) -home- KÜTÜPHANE in turkish(?) librarei
|what a combination
You are getting close to what I am trying to say but probably from the
other end.. ;)
[...]
|The Kurddish and persąan gramer are completly different, Its not like
|Azeri and Turkish, You will be surprise how litle arabic vord in
|kurdish if you compare to the turkish. One could not say that lots of
I won't be surprised. That's fine..
|persian vord are in kurdish, if he/she understand litel bit
|linguistic, lets count how many german vord are in english, or wich
|one come from others? It is perfectly okay persian and kurdish
|language have same or similar vords. thats what make language to be
|belong to same lang. family.
There is a treshold right? That treshold is not easy to construct in
80 years. Otherwise, why should I have problem with the language?
It's just a tool. Maybe in future people will communicate through telephaty.
|
|>My point is that;
|> 1) You conflict with youself when you claim that Azeries does not speak
|>Turkish, (Azeri speaks Turkish with slightly different acsend and with some
Take another EFL course..I didn't claim such.
|>more
|Azeri does not speake turkish they are speake azeri language, which
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just open up an international language atlas and look. Also look where
Kurdish is spoken. I did and find quite interesting results. Kurdish
is also spoken in distant areas of former USSR and other places. Maybe
you can think other places that Kurdish history existed then eliminated
because there were no turks there ;{ (guess where i am talking about)
|blong to same languge family that turkish blong to. like
|Kirgiz,tajik.ozbek,atc. Ther is no language known azeri turkis, There
If you think of the family, Hungarian and Finnish are in the same family
also. But we cannot understand those, although i think we have many common
words with Korean. (ana baba vesaire)
[...]
|>century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
|>words.
|I can understand you, it is quite right to say persian in turkish
|instade of say kurdish. even exectly same vord. I can not see on any
|vord write made in .....
|If vord originaly belong to one language. it is end of story.!
As you wish.. There is no story. because they are Persian. No books
nothing..Where is the literature..Sehname and Mount Nemrud ? yeah right..
I want those people smile whatever language they speak. you got that?
gokturk
Siamak Rezaei
...
><HB>
>I do not claim that Persian and Turkish are in the same language familiy,
>Turkish is involved in Ural-altaic language family, however, there are
>more than 2,000 common words in Turkish and Persian languages, at least 2,500
>commom words between Hungarian and Turkish, but we can not understand
>each other becasue of diffrences in pronouncation but more
>significantly, diffrences in grammer rules, I mean completely different.
>Persian_Kurdish languages, grammer rules are also almost same, most of the
>sentences in Kurdish is just a replicant of sentences in Persian, and
>mixing up with some Arabic words.
Persian and Kurdish do have lots of things in common, because they are
both from the Iranian branch of Indo-European languages.
But they are different languages. They are not dialects, because they
have different characterstics in different levels of Lexicon, Syntax,
Semantics and Discourse.
* Persian has lots of borrowing from Arabic, Kurdish not that many and
uses its word making rules very actively.
* Persian has no specific suffix like /ka/ in Kurdish.
* Persian like Turkish uses the same mechanism for subject/object
marking go read Brown paper on this, that is specific object
marking. Kurdish like older Iranian languages is an ergative
language.
* Persian is mainly SOV (verbs appear at the end) with very
flexibility in its word order like Turkish, and unlike Kurdish.
* Persian -unlike kurdish- is a language with discourse marker /ra/
showing similarity with Arabic mobtada marker /o/.
* ....
These are some of the reasons that show Kurdish language in parallel to
other aspects of Kurdish culture (traditions, dress, songs... )
has preserved its essence (at least from thousands years ago), despite
lots of invasions.
Don't show your ignorance on a public media.
>century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
>words.
It is not just words. You have also grammatical borrowing from Persian
and Iranian languages. /ki/ the clause marker is one of them. In Turkish,
markers appear at the end. Turkic languages lack finite embedded clauses and
they have borrowed it from Persian or Russian.
Don't tell me that all Turkic languages are the same. Azeri and
Turkish are similar dialects of one branch of Turkic languages. The
ones which are closer to Mongolia are different.
>HAKAN
It is better sometimes to close your mouth on issues that you are
ignorant. God only knows everything.
And please don't send your Turkish stuff on this list. INTERNET is a
public media with its rules. Either English or Kurdish on SCK.
I am wondering why there are not so many ignorant people from other
soc.culture.groups that cross-post their stuff in their language
to this group? YOU ARE A SHAME ON THE FACES OF YOUR FELLOW TURKS.
And Please don't answer in Turkish to these ignorants. It encourages them
to remain in their ignorance.
With best wishes for people like you to come out of your ignorance.
- Siamak
PS Sia-mak IS NOT a Turkish name with the meaning of "to make black" :)
It is an old Iranian name. It means "black mountain".
Ali
Bu arada Uygurlar "ekmek" kelimesini de kullanIyorlar ama bizim
kullandIgImIz anlamda degil.. $ekerli ve kurabiyeye benzeyen
bir $ey icin.. O kadar fark da olsun artIk..
Murat
Evet Hakancigim Eline saglik,
Boylece Kulturun ve dilin, en temel maddelerin adi bile soz konusu
olsa bile, nasil kolay degistigine-etkilendigine dair guzel bir
ornegi acikladin. Afferim sana; yanliz o benim hakkimda yazdigin o
tutarsiz varsayimlar iyi olmamis.
yeri gelmisken hatirlatayim;
Uygurlarin ve diger Orta Asya halklarinin Newroz kutlamalarini
bu bayramin bir Turk bayrami oldugunu savlayan vatandaslara da
yukarida yazdiklarini iletirsen, onlarda senin yuksek bilgi
dagarcigindan nasiplenirler. Yanliz daha onceden de belirtim
bilgiler istiflenerek pek bir yere varilmiyor, onlar arasindaki
baglantilari bulmaya calisman lazim. Eminim bunu da basaracaksin.
HAdi sana kolay gelsin
Murat
Hakan Basagaoglu
Distribution:
:
: Evet Hakancigim Eline saglik,
: Boylece Kulturun ve dilin, en temel maddelerin adi bile soz konusu
: olsa bile, nasil kolay degistigine-etkilendigine dair guzel bir
: ornegi acikladin. Afferim sana; yanliz o benim hakkimda yazdigin o
: tutarsiz varsayimlar iyi olmamis.
: yeri gelmisken hatirlatayim;
: Uygurlarin ve diger Orta Asya halklarinin Newroz kutlamalarini
: bu bayramin bir Turk bayrami oldugunu savlayan vatandaslara da
: yukarida yazdiklarini iletirsen, onlarda senin yuksek bilgi
: dagarcigindan nasiplenirler. Yanliz daha onceden de belirtim
: bilgiler istiflenerek pek bir yere varilmiyor, onlar arasindaki
: baglantilari bulmaya calisman lazim. Eminim bunu da basaracaksin.
: HAdi sana kolay gelsin
: Murat
Murat,
Bakiyorum yime karistirmaya basladin. Oncelikle kelime alis verisinden
bahsetim, Newroz un Pars lardan Uygurlara gectiginden degil, bizim Yunan
lilarlada oldukca fazla ortak kelimemiz var, 600 yilda icli disli olmusuz
ama adamlar Kurban Bayramini filan kutlamiyorlar, bunlar cok farkli
seyler, her ne kadar referansli yazilardan pek hoslanmiyorsan da MITHAT
in yazisinda cok guzel referanslar var, bir goz ativer. Eminim Newruz un
Turk Bayrami oldugunu belki yakalarsin,
Dedigin gibi bilgiler istiflenerek hic bir yere gidilmiyor, bunlari
birlestirmek gerek, ama benim bu konuda senden hic ama hic umudum yok,
laf salatasiyla istiflenmis bilgini sandevic yapman maalesef hic bir sey
cikarmiyor,
Not: Senin hakkinda yazdigim hic bir sey tutarsiz degildir,
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu
Bazi seylri anlaman lazim, belki cok daha acik yazmam da senin acindan
faydali olacaktir,
Birincisi, nun ile must kelimelerinin Uygurlarda kullanilmasi kulturel
iliskiyi gosterir, ancak kultursel etkilesimlerin tek yonlu oldugunun
gostergesi degildir, yani tum kultursel etkilesimlerin farslardan
uygurlara dogru oldugu yolundaki bir yorum yalnistir, ornek olarak
Iranlilar sadece Hazar Denizinde olan bir baligi uzunburun diye telafuz
ederler, ayrica tetige gelen-giden derlerve tam bir Turkce ile, simdi sen
bunlara bakip ta Nevruz Uygurlardan Turklere gecmis mi diye dusunebilimisin?
Sen dusunebilirsin, ama genel anlamda bu yalnis, sozun kisasi etkilesim
vardir, ancak bu hic bir zaman tek yonlu degildir, ve bir kac kelimeden
de boylesi genellemeler gitmek senin gibi akadenmisyen yazilari yazan ve
cok kitap okuyan bir zat a da hic yakismiyor!!!!,
Diger bir konu, Nevruz un Kurt ler tarafindan ortaya cikarildigini 100%
kanitlayan hic bir belge yoktur (tek tarafli olmayan), ama Nevruz un bir
cok Orta Asya Devletlerince (Turk Devletleri disinda da) kutlandigi
bilinmektedir (MITHAT in referanslara bir zahmet bakiver),
Kurtlerin konusma dilinin Farscanin degisik bir telafuz u oldugu
bayramlaraininda Fraslarin bayramlari ile benzestigi dusunulurse, bu
bayramin Kurtlerce ilk olarak ortya ciktigi suphe goturuyor, sadece
efsanelerde bu tur sonuclara gidersin,
Varsayalim bu Farslardan gecti, peki sana ne? Once Farsi gelsin, bana bu
bayrami nicin kutluyorsun diye sorsun? Ben muattab oalark onu karsimda
gormek isterim, elbetteki seni degil. Dikkatini cekerim, Iran tarihte
Tibet Turkleri ile ne kadar bir kulturel etkilesimi olmustur, onlarada mi
Nevruz u Farslar empoze etmis, acaba Mogollara da mi?
Murat kafasini kuma sokmus devekusundan farkin yok,
HAKAN
Hakan Basagaoglu (ez06...@dale.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: 3174E9...@alkymi.unit.no>
:
:
Hakan Basagaoglu
Distribution:
EWRU (ey...@ozemail.com.au) wrote:
:
: >: : Here it comes:
: Here some more:
Where? you should check Behrooz's posting once more, you did post here
anything diffrenet from Behrooz's regarding prononcuation of numbers, oh
I see youmodified bist as vist, vauw what s a serious contribution!!!!!
: >: :
: >: : Yek, du, se, char, penc, shesh, heft, hesht, neh, deh(des
: JU,d¹de,hire,çor,ponc,$e$,howt,he$t,new,des
: >: : 20 bist
: 20 vist
: >: : 30 si
: 30 Hires
: >: : 40 chil
: 40 çewres
: >: : 50 penci
: 50 poncas
: >: : 60 shest
: 60 $e$t
: >: : 70 hefte
: 70 howtay
: >: : 80 heshte
: 80 he$tay
: >: : 90 not
: 90 neway
: >: ( Could it be English NOT??????)
{erased}
: there are lots of turkish vor been produced from persian or kurdish
********
: vord.
*****
: like: Hefteh= hafta ------->(Persian)
: Çar-yek= çeyrek ------->(Persian)
: Serxwe$=sarho$ ------->Persian (sar=head; hos=dizzy)
: Çorçovê çerçeve ------->(Persian (Char-ceve) (four-edge)
: Xani(khani) hane ------->(Persian) (Khune or khane)
: seraw(b)=$arab -------> (Persian)
: Most funny one vould be KÜTÜPHANE, KÜTÜB in arabik (BOOKS) hane in
: kurdi$(KHANE) -home- KÜTÜPHANE in turkish(?) librarei
First of all, ,ay be you notice that, all words you had listed above are
entirely persian, can you write down here 50 words real Kurdish words?
you are using replicant of sentences
and words in Persian, As I pointed out earlier, after 15 th century,
Persian language was preferred in most of Poems, which in turn, leaded to
invasin of Turkish language by many arabic and persian words, therfore
you can find words like KUTUBHANE, nothing related with Kurdish, my dear.
: what a combination
Better than to copy all words from a single source? Dont you think that
this more creative?
: >dialect and mixing with some words from Arabic and you call it Kurdish)
: How come one could speake one language with COMPLEATLY diffirint
: dialect and still could be same language. if it is completly
: diffirent what make it dialect.
I mean, exactly same words, and same sentences, only difference is
pronounciation,OK?
:
: > 2)Do not claim immediately Nevsehir is a Kurdish word, we do not claim
: >it is a Turkish origon, but I belived that it is a Persian word, remeber
: >that Persian language was preferred in almost all poems after 15th
: >century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
: >words.
: I can understand you, it is quite right to say persian in turkish
: instade of say kurdish. even exectly same vord. I can not see on any
: vord write made in .....
: If vord originaly belong to one language. it is end of story.!
:
This words belong tp Persian language, origional language, yeah, this is
end of story!
HAKAN
Murat
Hakan, Yukarida yazdigima bir kez daha goz atar misin?
Ben senin Farsca bilginin duzeyi ile ilgili degilim, senin akil
yurutmen yanlis onu vurguluyorum; Cok iyi Farsca konusuyor
olabilirsin ancak bir dili "konusabilmek" ile "bilmek" arasinda
onemli bir fark var. Umarim bu kez anlatabildim.
Ikincisi, Konvensional olarak kabullenilmis her hangi bir kriter
olmaksizin kendi Farscan ile her hangi bilmedigin birinin Frasca
duzeyini karsilastirman da yanlis. Simdi isimiz Farsca bilgini
konusmak degildi, ancak apacik akil yurutmelerde yaprigin bariz
hatalari vurgulayarak sana yontemini degistirmenin -en fazla sana_
yararli olabilecegini hatirlattim. Ilk yazindaki "Kor gozum
parmagina" turunde ki sacmaliklar yuzunden cevabi yazilarim da bir
olcude alayci idi, ola ki bunu fazlaca mesele yapmissindir diye o
uslubu terketmeyi yegliyorum. Umarim bundan sonra kanayan bir
yaraya parmak bastiginda, refleksleri de hesaba katarsin. Illa ayni
fikirde olamak zorunda degiliz, ancak hic olmazsa acik ve tutarli
akil yurutmeler ile ve bilgilerimizin sinirlarini hep akilda
tutarak tartisalim (eger bir ise yarayacaksa!). tekrar ilk
uslubumuza donmemek umuduyla.
>
> : > =
> :
> : > Ikincisi eminim doguda senden daha uzun kalmisimdir, =
> :
> :
> : Hangi Dogu ? Neyin dogusu ?
>
> Kuzeyin 90 derece saat yonu, gunetinde 90 derece saat yonu tersi yonunu
> kastediyorum, bilmem anlayabildin mi?
Hakan , soyle soyleyeyim: diyelimki benim amcam (hayatinda Van dan
"batiya" gecmemistir) icin "Dogu" Iran dir. Iranli biri icin ise
"dogu" pakistandir. Bu bicimiyle yonleri konusmakta oldugumuzu
farketmisindir. Ancak eger bir Cografya uzerine konusacaksak orayi
daha iyi tanimlayacak bir isim kullanmak zorundayiz. Ideolojik
olarak Kurdistan demekte zorlandiginin farkindayim, ancak bir isimi
belirlerken basvuracagimiz bazi kriterler olmali; ornegin
mevzu-bahis cografyada yasayanlar oraya ne diyorlar?
tarihsel olarak oraya ne denmis? vs vs.
Sen "Dogu" derken (yada "Dogu Anadolu" ) su anda aklima gelen iki
akli selim kuralini cignemis oluyorsun;
1-tarihsel olarak uzerine konustugumuz yer "Kurdistan" olarak
adlandirilmis ve bu taa TC nin ilk yillarina kadar boyle
kullanilagelmistir (bkz. TBMM tutanaklari 1923-25),
2-O topraklar uzerinde yasayan insanlar, kendilerine aksi
dayatirilmayincaya kadar o ulkeye "Kurdistan" diyorlar .
Ben "kurdistan" dedigimde ise TC nin son 60 yilda koydugu bir
yasagi cignemis oluyorum. Bana gore halihazirda "de-facto" yok
olmus bir yasa, ve yakinda "de-jure" olarak ta kotu bir tarih
dilimi olarak yok olacak.
>
> : Cografya yi da size gore mi belirliyelim?
>
> Yok canim sen nasil istersen biz ona gore belirleyelim, yani artik
> Avrupa ya dogu daki Avrupa Kuzey kutbuna da bati kutbu diyelim, eger yine
> senin boyle parlak fikirlerin (!) olursa alt.stupidty den once buraya gec,
Konuyu saptirmayalim, yeri gelmisken tum yonlere gore
isimlendirmelerin tekrar gozden gecirilmesi bence yararli; genel
ilke olarak bunlar birer "kabul" durler ve bu "kabul" leri
varolus gercekleri gibi algilamak da eksik dusunce bicimidir.
beynimizin kapasitesi bu tur yanlislari duzeltmemiz icin yeterli,
ancak o aliskanliklarimiz yok mu, iste onlar onumuzde buyuk
engeller. Apropo: neden "Orta Dogu" deniliyor ve biz de bunu kabul
ediyoruz? Simdi Iranda Tebriz kentinde yasayan biri icin Kudus
neden "Orta Dogu" olsun? "Guney bati Asya" daha dogru bir
tanimlama olmaz mi? Sen Oriantalistleri yada Oriantalizmi eminim
duymus-okumussundur. Sen hic Yeni Zelandali yada Avusturalyali
kisilerle sohbet ettin mi? Onlarin dunya haritasini cizerken
alayci bir yaklasimlari var; bizim alistigimiz bicimin tepetaklak
olmus halini seviyorlar; ve kendi acilarindan da pek haksiz
sayilmazlar. Bizim bundan aldigimiz ders ise "kabullerin" herkes
tarafindan pek te "kabul" edilemez olabilecegini icimize sindirmek,
bilmem anlatabiliyormuyum?
>
> : Bu Etnosentrik girdaptan ne zaman kurtulacaksiniz?
>
> Ne munasebet Murat Bey, sen bizi kurtracaksin, sen yeni yonler icat
> edeceksin ya!!!!!
>
> Birak kavram kargasiligi yapmayi, dogudan herkesin ne kastedddigni
> biliyorsun, ay da mi yasiyorsun,
>
> : Ayrica durmadan mesnetsiz varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun; beni =
> :
> : tanimadan benimle ilgili kiyaslamalarda bulunuyorsun. Kaldiki =
>
> Bunu sen yapiyorsun, bana ilk mesaji ilginc yorumlarla yazan sensin, yine
> mesaj sirasini karistirdin, Murat iyi ki bu mesaji yine yuzlerce sci.
> gruplarina gondermiyorsun, yoksa halin yine dumandi....
>
> :
> : varsayiminin dogru olmasi bile senin birseyi "bildiginin" kaniti =
> :
> : olamaz.
> :
>
> Ama senin olur, beki sen beni tanimadan bana kitap oku, tevil goturmez
Sana "kitap oku" demedim (bkz, ilk cevabim), bazi konularda
yaptigin yorumlarin daha hazmedilir olabilmesi icin bilgilerini
artirmani onerdim. Sen bilgilerinin mutlak tepe noktasinda oldugunu
iddia etmiyorsundur herhalde, bilgi artirmak, aralardaki
baglantilar uzerine dusunmek iyidir, ayni fikirde degilmisin?
Bu oneri herkes icin gecerlidir.
> gibi 10 yas alti cocukalrinin kavgalarini hatirlatan satirlari niye
> dusuyorsun?
Pek uygun bir ornek degil 10 yas altindaki cocuklar "benim Babam
seninkini doger" derler. Bu gunlerde sct de bir turk arkadas
TSK nin 1 milyon elemani ve gucu ile ogunuyordu; bence bu "benim
babam senin babani doger" ve 10 yasi alti kavgalarina benziyor.
Ben hala senin ilk yazdiklarini "sacma=zirva" buldugumu
soylemeliyim; dogal olarak sacmaliklar uzerine tartisilamayacagi
icinde "tevil goturmez" ifadesini kullandim.
Yazi tarzimi aniden degistirmekle iki mesaj iletigimi saniyorum:
1-Boyle didiserek anlamsiz bir is yapiyoruz; zaten yeterince insan
oluyor, yeterince surtusme var, yenisine hic te gerek yok,
2-Her zaman herkesin uygun bulacagi bir platformda daha uygarca
iletisimin daha fazla insanca oldugu.
>
> :
> : dedelerim Kafkas
> : > lardan goc ettikten sonra olukca uzun bir sure Erzurum ve cevresinde
> : > ikamet etmisler, dolayisyla dogudaki insani da yasamini da cok iyi biliri=
> : m.
> : > =
> :
> :
> : Curuk argumanlar hakan, curuk . "Zirva tevil goturmez" lafini
> : insanlar iste tam bu nedenlerle soyleme ihtiyaci duyuyorlar.
> :
>
> Dogudaki insaninla ic ice yasadigim mi, Kafkas ta goc etmemiz mi curuk,
> curuk olan noktayi gosteremeyecek kadar basit bir yazim tarzi geciyorsun,
> aslinda senden daha fazlasini beklemekte yalnis olur.
>
> : > Sen benim soylediklerime cevap verecek bilgi duzyin neymis, yukaridaki
> : > iki satir laf kalabaligi yaparak AYDIN havasimi estirmeye calistin, yoksa=
> :
> :
> : "Aydin Havasi" ??
> : Bu sokak dilinde "kisa kes Aydin havasi olsun" ifadesindeki "Aydin =
> :
> : Havasi" mi yoksa baska bir seyi mi kasdediyorsun?
>
> Kendini AYDIN gibi gostermeyi hedefledigini kast ettim, boyle son
> zamanlarda bir suru aydinlarimiz turedi, hic bir sey begenmez,
> baskalarina ogut vermeyi seven, baskalarinin ifadelerini neden
> gostermeden abuk subuk laflarla reddeden, ama isin erbablari ile
> karsilastiklarinda da aptalliklari tescil eden BOS AYDINLARDAN bilmem
> acik oldun mu?
Ben oldum olasi insanlari sinirlari belli olmayan-muglak-
tasnifatlara zorlanmasini icime sindiremedim. Zorunlu oldugumuzda,
baska daha uygun yontem bulamadigimizda hep basvuruyoruz. Ben senin
kastetigin anlamda Aydin felan filan degilim, boyle bir hevesim de
yok. Bilgilerimin sinirlarini kontrol ederek elestirilerimi yaparim
ve onlarin sonuclarina da katlanmayi goze alirim. ne bilgi ne de
"dogrular" in mutlak olmadigina -degismez seyler olmadigina
inandigim icin, daha cok yontem uzerine akil yurutmeye calisiyorum
(bunu farketmis olman gerekir), Eger farkina varmadan "malumat
fro$"
olmus isem bu benim icin tam anlamiyla bir bonluktur, elimden
geldigi kadar bu isten uzak durmaya calisiyorum; ancak insan
konusunca hata yapar elbette.
>
> :
> :
> : > cok bos zamanin vardida klavye basinda parmak egsersizi mi yapmaya
> : > calisiyordun,
> :
> : Bilgilerinin sinirlarini bilip yorumlarini bu cercevede yaparsan
> : seni kizdiracak tepkiler almazsin. =
> :
>
> Murat gercekten cok komiksin, bani kizdiracak ne laf ettin ki? Arkdaslara
> senin mesajini forward ettim acaba kizacak bir sey bulabilrlermi diye,
> Sana kisaca mesajlarini ozeti, palyacoya kimse kizmaz, sadece guler,
>
Dusuncesiz ve bon olmaktansa Palyaco olmayi tercih ederim, sonunda
Palyacolar kendilerini degil baskalarini anlatarak guldurmezler mi?
Insanlari aglatacagima guldurmus olmakta her zaman tercihimdir.
> : Dil ve kultur uzerine bilgilerimizi artirmamiz hepimiz icin bir =
> :
> : zorunluluk, senin yaptigin ise ilkokul duzeyindeki toplama =
> :
> : bilgi ile ahkam kesmek olmustu; eh haliyle tutarsiz:zirva sifati =
> :
> : uygun kacti.
>
> BOS AYDIn yine konustu, begendigim sana yalnis gelen kismi yazamiyorsun
> bile, ama boyle iki uc satirla isi gecistirmeye calisyorsun, BOS AYDIN...
>
> :
> :
> :
> : > =
> :
> : > Bos konusup, yazmaktan bos bir zamanin olursa Cevdet in homepage ile
> : > ilgili yazmis oldugum mesajda Kurt kulturu hakkinda yazdigimi oku ve
> : > birde bu tartismayi baslatan ilk mesaji oku. =
> :
> :
> : Peki ala "homepage" i okuyacagim. Ancak tartismayi baslatan mektubu =
> :
> : okumam gerektigini dogrusu dusunmuyorum. benim derdim Eksik ve =
> :
> : yanlisligi apacik bilgiler uzerine uzayip giden tartismalara =
> :
> : katilmak degil, bu bilgi acisindan duzeysiz tartismalari, uslup =
> :
> : olarak ta iyice duzeysizlestirenlere hafif bir uyari.
> :
> : Murat
>
> Yani milletin akillisi sensin, senin uyarin olmazsa millet kor doguse
> girecek, yakinda herhalde kendini peygamber filan da ilan edersin,
Degisen zaman ve zeminlerde akil akil dan ustundur derler;
bugun ben yarin sen, obur gun bir baskasi. Insanlardan bilgi ve
uyari almanin ne gibi sakincasi var? Eger bu isi butun dogalligi
ile yapabilseydik belkide hic bir zaman ne Peygamberlere ne de
megoloman liderlere ihtiyac duymazdik.
>
> :
> : Eminim tartismayi baslatan o
> : > ilk mesaji okuduktan sonra azicik dusunebilen bir insan bu mesaj
> : > arkasindaki art niyeti anlayabilir, soyledigim gibi azicik DUSUNEBILEN
> : > INSAN,
> : > =
> :
> : > HAKAN
>
> Murat bence sen burayi bosver, sci.engr.civil den almis oldugun mesajlari
> iyice degerlendir, ve acikcasi senin gibi BOS AYDIN lada zamanimi daha
> fazla harcamak istemiyorum, sen en iyisi mustafa soysal veya hakki
> kocabas a filan takil, nefis bir tartisma dizisi cikarirsiniz, yada
> biliyorun nereye yazacagini!!!!!
Bu son paragrafi pek anladigimi soyleyemem.
her neyse, kendi adima ben modu degistirdim, mevzuu bakii.
Sen istersen DOLU AYDINLAR la tartis.
sana saglikli gunler dilerim
murat
>
> HAKAN
Murat
>
> Murat bu kadar zirvalaan normal, senin gibileri cok gordum, uykumu
> kaciracak kadar ne sen nede mesajlarin maalesef benim icin onemli,
> sen daha gecen ay sci.enrg.civil de alt.stupidty ye mesajin gonderilerek
> dusunce yapin acisindan net te aptalligi tescil eden Murat degilmisin?
OOO Hakan bak bu olmadi iste!
benim mesajimi alt.stupidity e Toreki adinda bir vatandas gonderdi
ve o da tipki senin yaptigin gibi yanlis bir varsayimdan yola
cikmisti. Beni odevini yapmak isteyen bir ogrenci sanarak, ev
odevimi kendimin yapmasini hic te uygun olmayan bir dille yazdigi
icin, terbiyelilik olcusunde cevabini aldi. Oysa sordugum soru
Metal kimyasindan anlayanlar icin apacik bir yanlis kavram
iceriyordu ve amacim da ogrencilere soru soran hocalarin kendileri
bu olcude onemli hata yi nasil yaptiklari ile ilgili tartisma
acmakti. Ancak net ne yazikki uzul uzerine konusmaktan hoslanan
bir cogunlugun isgalinde, mesleki tartismalar henuz yeterince
baskin degil. Benim o soruyu sorarken, acikca yanlisligi vurgulamam
belkide gerekiyordu ancak, insanlarin kendileri gorsun istedim;
ancak Toreki adindaki pesinhukumlu kisi bunu bir ev odevi sanmasi
o sozunu ettigin maillesme yi baslatti. (sanirim bazi yerlerde
benim yazdigim baslikla hala devam etmekte).
Ancak senin yukarida soyledigin dogru degil, sanirim mesaji
alabilecek olanlar aldilar.
Gelelim senin de bu tartismaya katilmis olmana: Bak bunu
kacirmisim. Asagida beni korumak icin bir iki mesaj attigini
soyluyorsun; anlasilan belli bir ilke acisindan degilde sirf ismim
"murat" diye beni "koruma" geregi duydun !? yaniliyor muyum.
Oysa ben "korunmaya muhtac" bir degilim ayrica o tartismada da
hakli olan bendim. Madem simdi tersini dusunuyorsun, o zaman neden
oyle dusunmus sun? "Oybirligi" bu ifadenin seni bu olcude
etkilenmesine izin vermemeni oneririm, ayrica, bir tart bakalim,
tartistigimiz konu ile bu konu arasinda hic bir ilkski yok iken
neden bu mevzuyu konusmak istedin ?
Neyse, her sey duzelir Hakan
murat.
Murat
Murat
Murat
>
> Murat,
> Bazi seylri anlaman lazim, belki cok daha acik yazmam da senin acindan
> faydali olacaktir,
> Birincisi, nun ile must kelimelerinin Uygurlarda kullanilmasi kulturel
> iliskiyi gosterir, ancak kultursel etkilesimlerin tek yonlu oldugunun
> gostergesi degildir,
Kim bunu iddia etti ?
yani tum kultursel etkilesimlerin farslardan
> uygurlara dogru oldugu yolundaki bir yorum yalnistir, ornek olarak
> Iranlilar sadece Hazar Denizinde olan bir baligi uzunburun diye telafuz
> ederler, ayrica tetige gelen-giden derlerve tam bir Turkce ile, simdi sen
> bunlara bakip ta Nevruz Uygurlardan Turklere gecmis mi diye dusunebilimisin?
hayir, sadece tum olasiliklari goz onunde bulundurarak meseleye
bakmaya calisirim.
> Sen dusunebilirsin, ama genel anlamda bu yalnis, sozun kisasi etkilesim
> vardir, ancak bu hic bir zaman tek yonlu degildir,
Elbette, kim aksini idia ederse, etnik anlamda ayrimci olamayi bir
tarafa koyarsak, dunyayi yanlis algilamis olur.
ve bir kac kelimeden
> de boylesi genellemeler gitmek senin gibi akadenmisyen yazilari yazan ve
> cok kitap okuyan bir zat a da hic yakismiyor!!!!,
Ben cok kitap okurum bunun pek zararini gormedim.
>
> Diger bir konu, Nevruz un Kurt ler tarafindan ortaya cikarildigini 100%
> kanitlayan hic bir belge yoktur
Boyle bir iddia da , tipki seninki kadar yanlis.
Daha yeni yeni yasaklari deliyoruz, ortada ozelikle kurtler uzerine
dise dokunur tarih arastirmalari yok iken, kanitlardan soz acmak
sacmalik olur. (bu isin "akademik" yani). Birde gundelik hayatin
siradanligi icinden bakarsak Newroz u her hangi bir otorite nin
emri disinda kutlayan ve bunu yasamsal gelenek haline getirmis
herkes Newroz u kutlama hakina sahiptir ( bir bayramin sahibi
olmasina ne gerek var ?). Bias dan yoksun arastirmalarin yeterli
oldugu zaman ise newroz un orijini ile ilgili isteyen istedigi
akademik tartismayi yapabilir; bunun o bayrami zevkle kutlayan
halklarin pek umurunda olacagini zannetmiyorum).
(tek tarafli olmayan), ama Nevruz un bir
> cok Orta Asya Devletlerince (Turk Devletleri disinda da) kutlandigi
> bilinmektedir (MITHAT in referanslara bir zahmet bakiver),
> Kurtlerin konusma dilinin Farscanin degisik bir telafuz u oldugu
Hakan gene ilk noktaya donduk, mecburen bazi sorular soracagim:
1-Dil farkliligi hangi kriterler uzerine yapilabilinir ?
(Dil, Lehce, agiz neye gore belirlenmeli-yada belirleniyor ?)
Ornegin karsilikli anlasabilme iki "ayri dil" i lehce yapar mi?
Gramer- kelime hazinesi ve anlam yuku(semantik) in bu
tanimlamalarda rolu nedir?
Ornek olsun: Norvec ce , Isvec ce ve danimarkaca hakkinda bir
malumatin var mi bilmiyorum. Eger varsa uzerine dusunmeni oneririm.
Bu "diller" (En kabul goren tasnifatta bunlar ayri diller olarak
tanimlaniyor) karsilikli anlasilabilir durumdadir. hatta Norvec ce
ile Danimarkaca yazilis acisindan neredeyse ayni (bir kac ufak
farklilik disinda). Simdi bunlara "dil" mi "lehce" mi vs vs
diyecegiz?
Baska bir Ornek olsun: Turkik diller olarak tasnif edilen diller
arsindaki farkliliklar yukarida verdigim ornekteki farkliliklardan
cok daha fazla iken Turkiyede hakim gorus bunlari "lehce" olarak
tanimlama egilimlisi (ancak karsilikli anlasilabilirlik pek fazla
olamasa gerk ki, devletler arasi toplantilarda zaman zaman gozume
kulakliklar carpiyor), onemli oranda turk bilim adamlari-dilcileri
tarfindan bu hakim tez kuskuyla karsilaniyor.
2-genel olarak Diller , dil aileleri siniflandirmalari ne olcude
saglikli? (oyle ya butun tartismalara bu tasnifatlar uzerine
oturtuluyor)
> bayramlaraininda Fraslarin bayramlari ile benzestigi dusunulurse, bu
> bayramin Kurtlerce ilk olarak ortya ciktigi suphe goturuyor, sadece
> efsanelerde bu tur sonuclara gidersin,
>
> Varsayalim bu Farslardan gecti,
Neden boyle bir varsayim?
Surekli yetersiz bilgi ile (ustelik halihazirda eldeedilebilir
turde bilgiler var iken) varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun.
Neden Farslardan Kurtlere gecmis oluyorda tersi olamiyor?
Fraslar 5 Gozlu- iki kafali mi, onlarin Kurtlere karsi ustunlugu
ne?
Eger gerekcelerin tarihsel ise unutma Iran topraklarinda Pers
imparatorlugundan once Med ler var idi.
Ayrica zaman acisindan Iran-Irak arasinda Elam lari- Kasitleri,
Biraz daha bati dan Hurri-;Mittani leri, ek olsun Urartulari vs vs.
Bu topraklara hic bir gelenek biraamadiklarini mi kastediyorsun?
peki sana ne? Once Farsi gelsin, bana bu
> bayrami nicin kutluyorsun diye sorsun? Ben muattab oalark onu karsimda
> gormek isterim, elbetteki seni degil.
Yukaridaki "yorum" bence sacma, simdi bunun neresini tartisayim?
"Zirava tevil..." dersem her nekadar sinirlenmedigini soylesende
((oysa sinirlenmek insanca bir tepkidir!), aklinca ona buna beni
kucuk dusurecek alakasiz mailler yollayarak biraz bozuldugunu acik
etmissin) sinirleneceksin. Ne diyeyim?
Turkiyede ceryan eden bir kepazelige bir Fars in tepki gostermesi
ni mi bekleyecegiz?
Dikkatini cekerim, Iran tarihte
> Tibet Turkleri ile ne kadar bir kulturel etkilesimi olmustur, onlarada mi
> Nevruz u Farslar empoze etmis, acaba Mogollara da mi?
>
> Murat kafasini kuma sokmus devekusundan farkin yok,
Vallahi, Bukadar yildir bu onemli Bayraminizi hatirlamayip, birden
aklinizin basiniza gelmesi, kimin kafasini kuma gomme adetine sahip
oldugunu daha iyi gosteriyor.
Newroz size mubarek olsun. Tekrar edelim bir bayrama sahip aramak
icin hic bir neden yok; ancak insan akli sormadan edemiyor: bu
derecede onemli Turk bayrami neden bu kadar yildir bugunlerdeki
kadar hayhay li kutlanilmadi? Ben Newrozu bildigim gibi
kutlayacagim, sende kutla. Herkese Newroz mubarek olsun.
Murat
Hakan Basagaoglu
: Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
: >
: > Murat,
: > Bazi seylri anlaman lazim, belki cok daha acik yazmam da senin acindan
: > faydali olacaktir,
: > Birincisi, nun ile must kelimelerinin Uygurlarda kullanilmasi kulturel
: > iliskiyi gosterir, ancak kultursel etkilesimlerin tek yonlu oldugunun
: > gostergesi degildir,
:
: Kim bunu iddia etti ?
Nun ve must dan dolayi Nevruz un uygurlari gectigini imply etmeye
calismistin ya,
:
:
: yani tum kultursel etkilesimlerin farslardan
: > uygurlara dogru oldugu yolundaki bir yorum yalnistir, ornek olarak
: > Iranlilar sadece Hazar Denizinde olan bir baligi uzunburun diye telafuz
: > ederler, ayrica tetige gelen-giden derlerve tam bir Turkce ile, simdi sen
: > bunlara bakip ta Nevruz Uygurlardan Turklere gecmis mi diye dusunebilimisin?
:
: hayir, sadece tum olasiliklari goz onunde bulundurarak meseleye
: bakmaya calisirim.
:
Fakat, nedendir bilinmez ama olasiliklarinda Nevruz un Uygyrlar in
orijinal bayrami oalbailicegi yok, belki sen bizden farkli olasilik
tanimi kullaniyorsun, aynen yon de oldugu gibi!
:
:
: > Sen dusunebilirsin, ama genel anlamda bu yalnis, sozun kisasi etkilesim
: > vardir, ancak bu hic bir zaman tek yonlu degildir,
:
: Elbette, kim aksini idia ederse, etnik anlamda ayrimci olamayi bir
: tarafa koyarsak, dunyayi yanlis algilamis olur.
Ve sen tum Orta Asya Turklerindeki bu bayramin mutlak suretle Fras lardan
gectigini (100% kanitlayamadigin halde) iddia ederek, (ve bunu da ortak
kelimelerden genelleme yaparak) dunyayi yalnis algilamis olmuyormusun?
:
:
: ve bir kac kelimeden
: > de boylesi genellemeler gitmek senin gibi akadenmisyen yazilari yazan ve
: > cok kitap okuyan bir zat a da hic yakismiyor!!!!,
:
: Ben cok kitap okurum bunun pek zararini gormedim.
Cok kitap okuyan kisinin daha bilincli yazmasini beklerdim,
:
:
: >
: > Diger bir konu, Nevruz un Kurt ler tarafindan ortaya cikarildigini 100%
: > kanitlayan hic bir belge yoktur
:
: Boyle bir iddia da , tipki seninki kadar yanlis.
ben bu bayram ilk defa Turkler tarafindan ortaya cikarilmistir seklinde
bir iddia ile gelmedim, Nevruz un tum Turk devletlerince kutlandigini ve
Turk Cumhuriyetince de bu bayramin kutlanmasini dogru buldugumu
soylemistim, iddiamin yalnis tarafi bence yok, ama sana yalnis gelen
tarafi var ise, biraz ac, tartismaya oradan devam edelim.
: Daha yeni yeni yasaklari deliyoruz, ortada ozelikle kurtler uzerine
: dise dokunur tarih arastirmalari yok iken, kanitlardan soz acmak
: sacmalik olur. (bu isin "akademik" yani).
: Birde gundelik hayatin
: siradanligi icinden bakarsak Newroz u her hangi bir otorite nin
: emri disinda kutlayan ve bunu yasamsal gelenek haline getirmis
: herkes Newroz u kutlama hakina sahiptir ( bir bayramin sahibi
: olmasina ne gerek var ?).
Kutlamanin sekli bence daha onemli, yasamsal hale getirmeden oncede bu
bayram kutlaniyordu, Kafkas Turklerindenim, ve bizde bu bayrami
yasallastirmadan once kutluyorduk, sokaga cikarak bayrak yakarak, polis
taslayarak filan degil!!! Bayramin sahibi olmasina ne gerek var? guzel,
peki o zaman bu bayramin yasallastirmanin, ve Turkiye Cumhuriyetinde
bayram olarak declare edilmesinde ne sakinca var, huzur icinde kimsenin
baskalarini rahatsiz etmeden kutlanmasinda tabbiki hic bir sakinca yok,
: Bias dan yoksun arastirmalarin yeterli
: oldugu zaman ise newroz un orijini ile ilgili isteyen istedigi
: akademik tartismayi yapabilir; bunun o bayrami zevkle kutlayan
: halklarin pek umurunda olacagini zannetmiyorum).
Sonunda ayni fikirde oldugumuz bir nokta,
:
:
: (tek tarafli olmayan), ama Nevruz un bir
Yazilarima bakarsan her zaman Kurt dili, yada Kurdish diye yazdim, ancak
tanimlama acisindan gerek kelime icerigi, gerek grammer kurali acisindan
Fars canin degisik bir telafuzu seklinde, belirttigin nokta dogru,
lehcenin tanimi ve dil lailelerinin tanimi ile bir cok belirsizlik var,
ancak benim dusuncem Turkik dillerinin Turkce nin bir versiyonu (lehce
diyelim), Kurtce nin de Farsca nin degiisk bir versiyonu oldugu seklinde,
:
:
: > bayramlaraininda Fraslarin bayramlari ile benzestigi dusunulurse, bu
: > bayramin Kurtlerce ilk olarak ortya ciktigi suphe goturuyor, sadece
: > efsanelerde bu tur sonuclara gidersin,
: >
: > Varsayalim bu Farslardan gecti,
:
:
:
: Neden boyle bir varsayim?
: Surekli yetersiz bilgi ile (ustelik halihazirda eldeedilebilir
: turde bilgiler var iken) varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun.
: Neden Farslardan Kurtlere gecmis oluyorda tersi olamiyor?
: Fraslar 5 Gozlu- iki kafali mi, onlarin Kurtlere karsi ustunlugu
: ne?
Murat, sen bu bayramin farslardan uygurlara gectigi varsayimi kabul
ediyorsun, ama farsalardan kurtlere gectiginde ates puskuruyorsun, benim
bu bayramin farslardan gecme ihtimalini dusunmemin sebebi, tarihte
surekli ve cok daha koklu imparaorluk ve devletler kurdugundan,
: Eger gerekcelerin tarihsel ise unutma Iran topraklarinda Pers
: imparatorlugundan once Med ler var idi.
: Ayrica zaman acisindan Iran-Irak arasinda Elam lari- Kasitleri,
: Biraz daha bati dan Hurri-;Mittani leri, ek olsun Urartulari vs vs.
: Bu topraklara hic bir gelenek biraamadiklarini mi kastediyorsun?
:
Boyle bir iddiam yok, belki de Nevruz Urartulardan gecmistir??,
:
:
: peki sana ne? Once Farsi gelsin, bana bu
: > bayrami nicin kutluyorsun diye sorsun? Ben muattab oalark onu karsimda
: > gormek isterim, elbetteki seni degil.
:
: Yukaridaki "yorum" bence sacma, simdi bunun neresini tartisayim?
: "Zirava tevil..." dersem her nekadar sinirlenmedigini soylesende
: ((oysa sinirlenmek insanca bir tepkidir!), aklinca ona buna beni
: kucuk dusurecek alakasiz mailler yollayarak biraz bozuldugunu acik
: etmissin) sinirleneceksin. Ne diyeyim?
Maillerimin hic biri alakasiz degildi, Murat seni kucuk dusurmeyi
amaclamadim, sadece gordugum ve yorumladigim gercegi yazdim, yorum sana
kalmis. Sana yazdigim o cevaplar tartistigim kisinin sinirlerimi bozacak
olcude birisi olmadigini gostermek icindi,
sordugum soru yukarida belirtmis oldugum
varsayimdan hareket ettim, akademik yazilarda da bunlar vardir, yani
degisik yorum ve sonuclar degisik varsayimlarla verilebilir, varsayimi
yok ettiginde (kesin olarak) sonucu hemen ignore edersin, ama bu da bir
sonuctur, bu aslinda bir cok journal paper inda rastalayabilecegin bir sey,
tavsiyem buraya dusecegin akademik yazilarada bu noktayi islemeye calis,
inan calisma daha iyi oluyor,
: Turkiyede ceryan eden bir kepazelige bir Fars in tepki gostermesi
: ni mi bekleyecegiz?
:
Ne kepazeligi? Nevruz kutlamasi mi? Hani herkes istedigi sekilde
kutlardi, hani sahiplenilmesinin onemi yoktu? Murat, kendin ile cok
celisiyorsun,
:
:
: Dikkatini cekerim, Iran tarihte
: > Tibet Turkleri ile ne kadar bir kulturel etkilesimi olmustur, onlarada mi
: > Nevruz u Farslar empoze etmis, acaba Mogollara da mi?
: >
: > Murat kafasini kuma sokmus devekusundan farkin yok,
:
: Vallahi, Bukadar yildir bu onemli Bayraminizi hatirlamayip, birden
: aklinizin basiniza gelmesi, kimin kafasini kuma gomme adetine sahip
: oldugunu daha iyi gosteriyor.
: Newroz size mubarek olsun. Tekrar edelim bir bayrama sahip aramak
: icin hic bir neden yok; ancak insan akli sormadan edemiyor: bu
: derecede onemli Turk bayrami neden bu kadar yildir bugunlerdeki
: kadar hayhay li kutlanilmadi? Ben Newrozu bildigim gibi
: kutlayacagim, sende kutla. Herkese Newroz mubarek olsun.
: Murat
Onemli olan bu bayramin su anda kutlaniyor olmasi, evet Nevruz herkese
kutlu olsun,
HAKAN
Mehmet Gokturk
.....
: I am wondering why there are not so many ignorant people from other
: to this group? YOU ARE A SHAME ON THE FACES OF YOUR FELLOW TURKS.
It is none of my job but, just check who first crossposted on this thread.
INTO WHICH GROUP....
Yes, Allah knows, that`s MY hope.. .not YOURS..;(
mehmet
: And Please don't answer in Turkish to these ignorants. It encourages them
: to remain in their ignorance.
: With best wishes for people like you to come out of your ignorance.
: - Siamak
: PS Sia-mak IS NOT a Turkish name with the meaning of "to make black" :)
: It is an old Iranian name. It means "black mountain".
--
# Mehmet Gokturk The George Washington University EECS #
# gok...@seas.gwu.edu (703) 893-9002 #
# http://www.seas.gwu.edu/student/gokturk/. #
$$$
>
> Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
> >
> > Murat (Mu...@alkymi.unit.no) wrote:
> > : Hakan ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ !
> > : Genel olarak diller ilgili.
> > : ozel olarak Farsca ve Kurtce ile ilgili,
> > : gelenekler ile ilgili, "kultur" dedigimiz seyin ne oldugu ile
> > : ilgili, yayilisi ile ilgili, politik manipulasyonlar ile ilgili
> > : bilgilerini artirdiktan da sonra yorum yapmalisin.
> > : Murat
> >
>
>
> > MURAT ZIRVA TEVIL GOTURMEZ,
>
>
> > Genel olarak diller ile ilgili imis, farsca diye Murat burada cikis yapmis,
> > Murat Farscayi oldukca iyi konusurum. Esimin Iran
> > asilli olmasindan dolayi bu dile ve kulture senden cok daha fazla yakin
> > oldum, (umarim kultur ilr rejimi ayirabiliyorsundur).
>
> Kultur ile rejimi ayirmayi bir yana birakalim, sen bir seyi
> Ayrica senin benden "iyi" farsca bildigine dair nasil bu kadar
> >
>
>
> dedelerim Kafkas
> > lardan goc ettikten sonra olukca uzun bir sure Erzurum ve cevresinde
> >
>
> Curuk argumanlar hakan, curuk . "Zirva tevil goturmez" lafini
> insanlar iste tam bu nedenlerle soyleme ihtiyaci duyuyorlar.
>
> > iki satir laf kalabaligi yaparak AYDIN havasimi estirmeye calistin, yoksa
>
> Bu sokak dilinde "kisa kes Aydin havasi olsun" ifadesindeki "Aydin
>
> > calisiyordun,
>
> Bilgilerinin sinirlarini bilip yorumlarini bu cercevede yaparsan
> seni kizdiracak tepkiler almazsin.
>
> >
> > Bos konusup, yazmaktan bos bir zamanin olursa Cevdet in homepage ile
> > ilgili yazmis oldugum mesajda Kurt kulturu hakkinda yazdigimi oku ve
> > birde bu tartismayi baslatan ilk mesaji oku.
>
>
> Murat
>
> > ilk mesaji okuduktan sonra azicik dusunebilen bir insan bu mesaj
> > arkasindaki art niyeti anlayabilir, soyledigim gibi azicik DUSUNEBILEN
> > INSAN,
> >
Bildigim bir sey var oda "KURTLERIN NEVRUZ DIYE BIR BAYRAMI YOK" basligi bana ait ve o anlamda
buraya ilk postalayan benim. Tabi senin Tartisman nereden besladi bilemem.
Sacmalik ararsan, birilerinin Kurtceyi farscanin lehcesi yada arapca farsca kelimelerle dolu
temelsiz bir dil oldugunu soyleyenden baslayabiliriz. Hele bu iddiayi Turkce konusan birinin hic ama
hic soylememesi gerek. Bak ben iyi kotu Turkce biliyorum. Ayrica mumkun oldugu kadar "OZ" turkce
kullanmaya calisiyorum. Ama bir saysam su ana kadar yazdiklarimin %20-25 i turkce kokenli olmadigi
ortaya cikar.
"OZ" kelimesi uzerinde biraz dusunursen Birde "Uvey" turkcenin oldugu anlasilir Iste Turkcenin bu
kesiminden kurtulmak icin TC 70 yili askindir Dil Kurumu, Dil Akademisi, ve Kullanilacak turkceyle
ilgili resmi tebliglerle Orani ancak yuzde otuzlara dusurebildi. Simdi bir 'Dilden anlamaz" cikarda
kurtcenin zayi ,fikarave ordan buran alinma kelimelerden olustugunu ispatlamaga, hemde bunu "derin"
farsca bilgisine dayanarak iddia ederse, sacmalik o noktada zuhur eder.
Ister inan ister inanma KURTCEDEKI YABANCI KOKENLI KELIME ORANI CUMHURIYETIN BASINDAKI TURKCEDEN cok
cok az, BU GUNKU TUKCEDEKI YABANCI KELOME ORANIYLA cok yakindir.
Tabi bu neyi ispatlar! orasi tartisilir. Bence kurtcenin Turkceden daha "degerli" bir dil oldugunu
degil, ama Kurtcenin de cok koklu ve eski bir dil oldugunu, tum dis etkilere ragmen kendisini
koruyabilmis olmasiyla ispatladigini gosterir. Birkere ortadogu gibi bir cografyada, dillerin
biribirinden kelime alisverisi yapmasindan daha dogal hicbirsey dusunulemez. Hele bu dilleri konusan
halklarin tamaminin Islamlik gibi bir ortak yonu varsa bu dahada anlasilirdir.
biri, farsca ve kurtce sayilarin ayni oldugunu soyleyerek aslinda kurtcenin olmadaigini , "farscanin
hemen hemen aynisi fakat tamamen degisik bir lehceyle" konusuldugunu anlatiyor. Tabi dil gibi bir
konuyu bilmeden tartismaya calisirsa insan yanlizca sacmalamaz ayni zamanda komiklesirde.
ben sayabildigim kadariyla ayni baslik altinda 12 tane ayri yazi mevcut. Hepsini birdenhatirlayip
cevaplamak guc o nedenle boyle bir aciklama geregi duydum.
herkes payina duseni alsin
Zor sipaz
EWRU
Murat
Yekety
historical proof and matters that prove you wrong, you must always find a
way to mock it?
Mehmet Gokturk
At which point i am wrong? I also have scientific and historical proofs.
Keep in mind that i am not a skinhead and I am trying to do something good for
the people of my country. Someone accused Turks by stealing Nevruz and
i said "it is wrong". That was the starting point and i haven't seen scientific
proofs against this. Other parts of talks were dialogs of a hard nature, but ok.
thanks
gokturk
Mustafa Aslan
It is obvious that you know Turkish. But do you know Kurdish and Persian
and Arabic ? If your answer is not, then my suggestion is PLEASE DO NOT
EXPRESS YOUR IDEAS ABOUT A TOPIC THAT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE.
Fortunately you don't know any word an Indian Language, If you knew you
would say Kurdish is nothing but a dialect originated from Persian,
Arabic, Indo and Turkish. An according your thinking way there are only a
few major languages. Because English and French and Spanish are so close
to each other.
Here comes some kurdish words,
Bavo
Keko
Bercev
Iskan
Jiyan
Baran
Bez
Tekosin
Spas
Sippi
del
duj
Mishk
Serxwebun
Inne`
Find the exactly this words in Persian or in Arabic.
Now it is my turn,
Could you list me 50 Turkish word that everybody uses in daily
conversation ?
Babur Deliktas
"Hurriyeti aldik!" dediler, gaybe inandik;
"Eyvah, bu bazicede bizler yine yandik!"
Cem'iyyete bir firka dedik, tefrika cikti:
Sapsaglam iken milletin erkanini yikti.
"Turan ili" namiyle bir efsane edindik;
"Efsane, fakat, gaye!" deyip az mi didindik?
Kac yurda veda etmedik artik bu ugurda?
Elverdi gidenler, aciyin eldeki yurda!
Mehmet Akif ERSOY
1918
B.D.
Babur Deliktas
Anlamak yok cocuqum, anlar gibi olmak var;
Akil icin son tavir, saclarini yolmak var...
B.D.
LeilaKap
the 15th century Persian..This is the one I grew up with..Secondly, my
mother's family uses the "Gocmen" Turkish found in the higlands of
Bulgaria..I grew up with Armenian, Greek, Kurdish, Persian, Arabic, Tatar,
Georgian, Russian, Bulgarian, Cretan Greek, Italian, German, Latvian, and
Lladino..
So what is the point? Silliness is all I see..When we sit around the New
Year's table, there are at least 7-8 languages spoken, that is my
culture..That is the way cultures are born and live..That is what happened
to Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, ...etc..People
mixed, they got together and became closer..All is the same family, but
each of us is "ethnically" different..So what does it matter? Semantics or
linguistics, if you take it far enough goes into a realm called "the
psychology of linguistics"..None of which is real, in that part of the
world..Neither is it applicable..I learned Laij as a first language..I
learned to count and show the directions in Persian..Then in Bulgar...What
matters is that we have intermixed, there is no one who can claim to be
"pure" (after 4,000 years)..All is one except for those who create
divisions..One family, many problems as I see it..
Leila
LeilaKap
Zardushti, Shia'ism and Bahai'ism..
Novruz is our biggest celebration..It started out not as one thing or
another but cam from the folk who lived in Asia Minor..Not Greek, Not
Scythisn (Iranian)..But was from the cult of the Earth Mother..I believe
in the Earth Mother..We have the candles, the hay grass, the eggs
symbolizing the life to come, the onions and the garlic from the bulbs of
yesteryear..The fire that consumes our sins and lets us go forward..
The seven S's from the "sa'at" to the "saman and the sabzi"..
There is no onw ho can "claim" it..The Kazakh celbrate it in China, as the
Zoroastrians in the Sudan and Egypt celebrate it..
It is the time of the Spring Solstice, it is the time of the rebirth of
spring..The Druids have the same ceremonies, the Lapps in Finland, as do
the Gypsies and the Parsees of India..
Novruz, is the New Day and the Dawning of the New Year,,and I get tired
saying this evey year..
If you went more real antropological and sociological material, please
refer to Sir Frazer's "The Golden Bough"..
Leila
Murat
> =
> Murat (Mu...@alkymi.unit.no) wrote:
> : Hakan Basagaoglu wrote:
> : >
> : > Murat,
> : > Bazi seylri anlaman lazim, belki cok daha acik yazmam da senin acin=
dan
> : > faydali olacaktir,
> : > Birincisi, nun ile must kelimelerinin Uygurlarda kullanilmasi kultu=
rel
> : > iliskiyi gosterir, ancak kultursel etkilesimlerin tek yonlu oldugunun=
> : > gostergesi degildir,
> :
> : Kim bunu iddia etti ?
> :
> =
> Nun ve must dan dolayi Nevruz un uygurlari gectigini imply etmeye
> calismistin ya,
Onu sen oyle algilamissin; benim amacim kultur denen seyin oldukca =
dinamik oldugunu ve hayatin en onemli alanlarina dahi hizla nufuz =
etme yetenegine sahip oldugunu vurgulamakti.Kultur alisverisi
herzaman cok yonludur, bunun tersini idia eden gerceklere degil,
kafasindaki hulyalara takilmistir. Ozel olarak Newroz meselesinde =
bu adetin Orta Asya ya Iran yaylasindan gecme olasiligi daha fazla =
gorunuyor tersi icin pek fazla inandirici kanit yok
(bu Orta Asyadan hic bir seyin Iran a gecmedigi anlamina gelmez; =
bilen biliyor Mavara un Nehr in ne dercede zengin bir kultur yatagi =
oldugunu, elbette bir suru sey de tersine gecmistir- biz bunu mu =
tartisiyor duk ?)
> :
> :
> : yani tum kultursel etkilesimlerin farslardan
> : > uygurlara dogru oldugu yolundaki bir yorum yalnistir, ornek olarak
> : > Iranlilar sadece Hazar Denizinde olan bir baligi uzunburun diye telaf=
uz
> : > ederler, ayrica tetige gelen-giden derlerve tam bir Turkce ile, simdi=
sen
> : > bunlara bakip ta Nevruz Uygurlardan Turklere gecmis mi diye dusunebil=
imisin?
> :
> : hayir, sadece tum olasiliklari goz onunde bulundurarak meseleye
> : bakmaya calisirim.
> :
> =
> Fakat, nedendir bilinmez ama olasiliklarinda Nevruz un Uygyrlar in
> orijinal bayrami oalbailicegi yok, belki sen bizden farkli olasilik
> tanimi kullaniyorsun, aynen yon de oldugu gibi!
Bu tamamiyle imkansiz degil; teorik olarak elbette mumkun; hatta =
belkide ilk olarak cinli ler kutladilar; ancak eldeki verileri =
degerlendirdigimizde ortaya boyle bir sonuc cikmiyor. Ileride
bir arkeolog, bir dil bilimci yada ne bileyim bir tarihci =
inandirici kanitlar ile gelir ve senin bu soyledigini kanitlarsa
eski bildigimiz seyi cop tenekesine atariz.
> =
> :
> :
> : > Sen dusunebilirsin, ama genel anlamda bu yalnis, sozun kisasi etkiles=
im
> : > vardir, ancak bu hic bir zaman tek yonlu degildir,
ben hic bir zaman tek yonlu etkilesim olabilecegine inanmis degilim =
zaten; sanirim vahim bir yanlis anlasilma var (yada "stres altinda =
tartisma sendromu")
> :
> : Elbette, kim aksini idia ederse, etnik anlamda ayrimci olamayi bir
> : tarafa koyarsak, dunyayi yanlis algilamis olur.
> =
> Ve sen tum Orta Asya Turklerindeki bu bayramin mutlak suretle Fras lardan=
> gectigini (100% kanitlayamadigin halde) iddia ederek, (ve bunu da ortak
> kelimelerden genelleme yaparak) dunyayi yalnis algilamis olmuyormusun?
Evet, belkide yanlis algilamis oluyorum; sanirim Sir Karl Poper i =
duymussundur; Bilim ile Din ve Ideoloji ayrimini koyarken onemli =
bir kriter den soz eder (meslekten Bilim felsefesi calisanlarin =
hosgorusune siginarak ) "yanlislanabilirlik". Bu bilimsel dusunceyi =
digerlerinden ayiran onemli bir ozellik: En fazla kabul goren
tez (yada hipotez mi demek lazim) teorilesiyor taki yeni bulgular =
ile dizeltilene yada tumden yanlislanana kadar. Bu olasilik her =
zaman var. tabii sen Karl Poper=EDn bu yaklasimina inanmak zorunda =
degilsin.
> =
> :
> :
> : ve bir kac kelimeden
> : > de boylesi genellemeler gitmek senin gibi akadenmisyen yazilari yazan=
ve
> : > cok kitap okuyan bir zat a da hic yakismiyor!!!!,
Hakan baska argumanlarim-kanitlarim olmadigini nerden biliyorsun;
neti bir sohbet yeri olarak kabul ettigimizi dusunursen, burya her =
turlu detayi gecmeye ne zaman ne sabir elvermez.
> :
> : Ben cok kitap okurum bunun pek zararini gormedim.
> =
> Cok kitap okuyan kisinin daha bilincli yazmasini beklerdim,
Bana inanmiyor olabilirsin, bu dogal, ancak ne yapabilirim
okuyorum , dusunuyorum ve bunlar cikiyor, ama sana "bilincli" gelir =
ama gelmez, buna da ben bir sey yapamam.
=
> =
> :
> :
> : >
> : > Diger bir konu, Nevruz un Kurt ler tarafindan ortaya cikarildigini 10=
0%
> : > kanitlayan hic bir belge yoktur
> :
> : Boyle bir iddia da , tipki seninki kadar yanlis.
> =
> ben bu bayram ilk defa Turkler tarafindan ortaya cikarilmistir seklinde
> bir iddia ile gelmedim, Nevruz un tum Turk devletlerince kutlandigini ve
> Turk Cumhuriyetince de bu bayramin kutlanmasini dogru buldugumu
> soylemistim, iddiamin yalnis tarafi bence yok, ama sana yalnis gelen
> tarafi var ise, biraz ac, tartismaya oradan devam edelim.
> =
> : Daha yeni yeni yasaklari deliyoruz, ortada ozelikle kurtler uzerine
> : dise dokunur tarih arastirmalari yok iken, kanitlardan soz acmak
> : sacmalik olur. (bu isin "akademik" yani).
> : Birde gundelik hayatin
> : siradanligi icinden bakarsak Newroz u her hangi bir otorite nin
> : emri disinda kutlayan ve bunu yasamsal gelenek haline getirmis
> : herkes Newroz u kutlama hakina sahiptir ( bir bayramin sahibi
> : olmasina ne gerek var ?).
> =
> Kutlamanin sekli bence daha onemli, yasamsal hale getirmeden oncede bu
> bayram kutlaniyordu, Kafkas Turklerindenim, ve bizde bu bayrami
> yasallastirmadan once kutluyorduk, sokaga cikarak bayrak yakarak, polis
> taslayarak filan degil!!!
Burada bir mevzu ile digeri birbirine karisti,
Turkiye de Newroz u bu derecede dilimize dolanmasina sebep olan =
onemli bir sorun yasaniyor.Newroz tartismasi aslinda bu sorunun bir =
cok yuzunden biri. Polis taslamaktan bahsediyorsun, oysa bu =
kutlamalar sirasinda oldurulen insanlar
(aralarinda Sabah gazetesinden Izet Kezer de var) uzerine konusacak =
olursak eminim bu kez de tartisma oraya kayar. Goruyorsun ki Butun =
yollar Roma ya cikiyor. Kaldiki sizin bildikleriniz sadece olaylar =
had safaya ciktigi zamanlara ait, ya oncesi ya 1984 oncesi: acaba =
biz istedigimiz bicimde (hic te onu bunu taslayarak falan degil) =
Newrozu kutlamak istedigimiz de bize "buyrun kutlayin mi denildi ?.
Normal Kosullar Altinda misiz gibi konusuyorsun , oysa degiliz.
=
Bayramin sahibi olmasina ne gerek var? guzel,
> peki o zaman bu bayramin yasallastirmanin, ve Turkiye Cumhuriyetinde
> bayram olarak declare edilmesinde ne sakinca var, huzur icinde kimsenin
> baskalarini rahatsiz etmeden kutlanmasinda tabbiki hic bir sakinca yok,
Bu bayaramin resmilesmesine degil itirazlar, devlete bu karari =
aldiran zorunluluklari yaratan problem hala kanamaya devam ederken,
ustune ustluk bayramin kokeni ile ilgili Ergenekon hikayeleri =
anlatilarak sanki yapilmasi gereken daha onemli seyler yokmus gibi
bu yola basvurmak hos degil. Ileride bu problem kesinlikle =
cozulecek o zaman her isteyen istedigi bicimde, baris icinde =
bayrami kutluyacaktir.
> =
> : Bias dan yoksun arastirmalarin yeterli
> : oldugu zaman ise newroz un orijini ile ilgili isteyen istedigi
> : akademik tartismayi yapabilir; bunun o bayrami zevkle kutlayan
> : halklarin pek umurunda olacagini zannetmiyorum).
> =
> Sonunda ayni fikirde oldugumuz bir nokta,
> =
> :
> :
> =
> Yazilarima bakarsan her zaman Kurt dili, yada Kurdish diye yazdim, ancak
> tanimlama acisindan gerek kelime icerigi, gerek grammer kurali acisindan
> Fars canin degisik bir telafuzu seklinde, belirttigin nokta dogru,
> lehcenin tanimi ve dil lailelerinin tanimi ile bir cok belirsizlik var,
> ancak benim dusuncem Turkik dillerinin Turkce nin bir versiyonu (lehce
> diyelim), Kurtce nin de Farsca nin degiisk bir versiyonu oldugu seklinde,=
Bu tasnifatina katilmiyorum, cevabi da sonra vakit buldugum bir =
zaman yazamak isterim. Itiraz nedenim kesinlikle gocun ma degil
(Kurt olamadan dolayi, Kurtceyi iyi bilenler bu dilin Frasca dan =
oldukca farkli yapisal ozelikleri de oldugunu bilirler bu =
tartismanin ozel yani) benim itirazim aslinda senin santrik =
yaklsimina olacak: yani neden Turkce Uygurcanin bir versiyonu degil =
yada Farsa Kurtce nin bir versiyonu degil de tersi ? Ornegin Bir =
Kazak yada Ozbek belkide senin bu tanimina karsi cikabilir?
Neyse daha sonra!
> =
> :
> :
> : > bayramlaraininda Fraslarin bayramlari ile benzestigi dusunulurse, bu
> : > bayramin Kurtlerce ilk olarak ortya ciktigi suphe goturuyor, sadece
> : > efsanelerde bu tur sonuclara gidersin,
> : >
> : > Varsayalim bu Farslardan gecti,
> :
> :
> :
> : Neden boyle bir varsayim?
> : Surekli yetersiz bilgi ile (ustelik halihazirda eldeedilebilir
> : turde bilgiler var iken) varsayimlarda bulunuyorsun.
> : Neden Farslardan Kurtlere gecmis oluyorda tersi olamiyor?
> : Fraslar 5 Gozlu- iki kafali mi, onlarin Kurtlere karsi ustunlugu
> : ne?
> =
> Murat, sen bu bayramin farslardan uygurlara gectigi varsayimi kabul
> ediyorsun, ama farsalardan kurtlere gectiginde ates puskuruyorsun, benim
Yok ates puskurmuyorum, isin asli beni pek irgaladigini da =
soyleyemem (pek inandirici gelemdi galiba ama oyle)
Ancak hep sunu soyluyorum, olasiliklari secerken insan =
temayullerine gore seciyor, bu dogru mu?
Yeterli kanit yok iken gecis yonu hakkinda pek kesin seyler =
soylenemez. Farslar ile Uygurlar birbirlerinden daha fazla farkli =
kavimler iken yakinsamis olabilirler; oysa Kurtler ile Farslar =
belkide (emin degiliz) tarihin derinliklerinde birb irlerine daha =
yakin halkalar topluluklari idi bu nedenle kulturel alisveris bu =
iki kavim (yada daha dogrusu kavimler corbasi) arasinda daha =
bulanik, daha fazla sensitivite gerekiyor kultur trafigini izlemek =
icin.
> bu bayramin farslardan gecme ihtimalini dusunmemin sebebi, tarihte
> surekli ve cok daha koklu imparaorluk ve devletler kurdugundan,
> =
> : Eger gerekcelerin tarihsel ise unutma Iran topraklarinda Pers
> : imparatorlugundan once Med ler var idi.
> : Ayrica zaman acisindan Iran-Irak arasinda Elam lari- Kasitleri,
> : Biraz daha bati dan Hurri-;Mittani leri, ek olsun Urartulari vs vs.
> : Bu topraklara hic bir gelenek biraamadiklarini mi kastediyorsun?
> :
> =
> Boyle bir iddiam yok, belki de Nevruz Urartulardan gecmistir??,
> =
> :
> :
> : peki sana ne? Once Farsi gelsin, bana bu
> : > bayrami nicin kutluyorsun diye sorsun? Ben muattab oalark onu karsimd=
a
> : > gormek isterim, elbetteki seni degil.
> :
> : Yukaridaki "yorum" bence sacma, simdi bunun neresini tartisayim?
> : "Zirava tevil..." dersem her nekadar sinirlenmedigini soylesende
> : ((oysa sinirlenmek insanca bir tepkidir!), aklinca ona buna beni
> : kucuk dusurecek alakasiz mailler yollayarak biraz bozuldugunu acik
> : etmissin) sinirleneceksin. Ne diyeyim?
> =
> Maillerimin hic biri alakasiz degildi, Murat seni kucuk dusurmeyi
> amaclamadim, sadece gordugum ve yorumladigim gercegi yazdim, yorum sana
> kalmis. Sana yazdigim o cevaplar tartistigim kisinin sinirlerimi bozacak
> olcude birisi olmadigini gostermek icindi,
> =
> sordugum soru yukarida belirtmis oldugum
> varsayimdan hareket ettim, akademik yazilarda da bunlar vardir, yani
> degisik yorum ve sonuclar degisik varsayimlarla verilebilir, varsayimi
> yok ettiginde (kesin olarak) sonucu hemen ignore edersin, ama bu da bir
> sonuctur, bu aslinda bir cok journal paper inda rastalayabilecegin bir se=
y,
> tavsiyem buraya dusecegin akademik yazilarada bu noktayi islemeye calis,
> inan calisma daha iyi oluyor,
> =
> : Turkiyede ceryan eden bir kepazelige bir Fars in tepki gostermesi
> : ni mi bekleyecegiz?
> :
> =
> Ne kepazeligi? Nevruz kutlamasi mi? Hani herkes istedigi sekilde
> kutlardi, hani sahiplenilmesinin onemi yoktu? Murat, kendin ile cok
> celisiyorsun,
Galiba gec saatlerde yazdigim icin acik olmuyor; Newrozun =
kutlanmasina bir sey dedigim yok, onun gerekcelendirilmesine, =
kullanilan yonteme ve soyleme itiraz ediyorum.
> =
> :
> :
> : Dikkatini cekerim, Iran tarihte
> : > Tibet Turkleri ile ne kadar bir kulturel etkilesimi olmustur, onlarad=
a mi
> : > Nevruz u Farslar empoze etmis, acaba Mogollara da mi?
> : >
> : > Murat kafasini kuma sokmus devekusundan farkin yok,
> :
> : Vallahi, Bukadar yildir bu onemli Bayraminizi hatirlamayip, birden
> : aklinizin basiniza gelmesi, kimin kafasini kuma gomme adetine sahip
> : oldugunu daha iyi gosteriyor.
> : Newroz size mubarek olsun. Tekrar edelim bir bayrama sahip aramak
> : icin hic bir neden yok; ancak insan akli sormadan edemiyor: bu
> : derecede onemli Turk bayrami neden bu kadar yildir bugunlerdeki
> : kadar hayhay li kutlanilmadi? Ben Newrozu bildigim gibi
> : kutlayacagim, sende kutla. Herkese Newroz mubarek olsun.
> : Murat
> =
> Onemli olan bu bayramin su anda kutlaniyor olmasi, evet Nevruz herkese
> kutlu olsun,
Yillarca once bir kitapta okumustum (sanirim Wilhem Reich=EDn bir =
kitabi) : yaklasik olarak hatirladigim bir sey aklima geldi: "yanan =
bir yapi icinde, ates boceklerinin guzeliginden bahsediliyor" diye =
yaziyordu, galiba bizde aynen oyle yapiyoruz:
daha uygunu bir Kurt deyisi: "degirmeni su goturuyor sen cik-cika
nin pesine dusmussun" (Cik-Cik a donen degirmen tasina dokunan ve =
salanarak bugdayin oluktan degirmen tasina akmasini saglayan =
kucucuk ve bir caki ile hemece yapilabilecek bir sey)
Neyse tartisma surtuserek basladi, uygarca devam eder umarim
Murat
> =
> HAKAN
Mulla Cola
Kava Asenger was a Turk who grew up in Dushambe, Kazakhstan. The meaning
of Nevruz means, Nev= Never Ruz=Ruzia, with means Never Ruzia shall defeat
the great bearer of Kemal Mustafa Ataturk. All you Kurds must bow down to
the savior of mankind. The Great Cengiz Xan, shall return to his rightous
place and teach all non-turks how to write a horse.
Hakan Basagaoglu
OOO
bir kizgin Kurt daha!
:
: OOO Hakan bak bu olmadi iste!
Hakan Basagaoglu
<ERASED>
:
: It is obvious that you know Turkish. But do you know Kurdish and Persian
: EXPRESS YOUR IDEAS ABOUT A TOPIC THAT YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CLUE.
Mehmet, I know Persian very well, so I can express my ideas about this
topic, OK? Therfore I have enough clue Do not YELL?
:
: Fortunately you don't know any word an Indian Language, If you knew you
: would say Kurdish is nothing but a dialect originated from Persian,
: Arabic, Indo and Turkish. An according your thinking way there are only a
: few major languages. Because English and French and Spanish are so close
: to each other.
:
: Here comes some kurdish words,
:
: Bavo
: Keko
: Bercev
: Iskan (Arabic)
: Jiyan
: Baran (BA'RAN or Ba'run) (Persian)
: Bez (single-sylable) You can not claim anything on this word
: Tekosin
: Spas
: Sippi
: del (Persian)
: duj
: Mishk (Persian, or Arabic)
: Serxwebun
: Inne`
:
: Find the exactly this words in Persian or in Arabic.
:
(As I told you before, there is minor diffrences in pronouncation, if you
write down meaning of those words in English, I can put the corresponding
words in Persian and Arab, but you still could not write 50, anyway.
: Now it is my turn,
:
: Could you list me 50 Turkish word that everybody uses in daily
: conversation ?
bilgisayar,
gitmek,
kosmak,
pisirmek,
yazmak,
bagirmak,
oynamak,
at,
kedi,
kopek,
ip,
canta,
uyumak,
et,
balik,
tavuk,
alis-veris,
para,
dedikodu
arac-gerec,
cevirme (doner)
kuyruk,
yagmur (not ba'ran)
deniz,
kar (snow)
yol,
okul,
bolum,
ay (moon, month)
gunes
(Birden milyon a kadar olan tum sayilar)
ada,
sokak,
sicak,
soguk,
ayaz,
ilkbahar (you can not claim that bahar is derived from Persian)
yaz
sonbahar
kis (winter)
kara
ak
kazanmak,
kaybetmek,
eglenmek
icmek
yemek
oturmak,
kus
duman
yatak
I guess I wrote more than you did,
Is it OK?
HAKAN
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
Hakan Basagaoglu
<ERASED>
: * Persian has lots of borrowing from Arabic, Kurdish not that many and
: uses its word making rules very actively.
But Kurdish has borrowed many words from Persian (like your name),
*******************************
: * Persian has no specific suffix like /ka/ in Kurdish.
: * Persian like Turkish uses the same mechanism for subject/object
: marking go read Brown paper on this, that is specific object
: marking. Kurdish like older Iranian languages is an ergative
: language.
We agree that that structure is also same with Persian,
*************
: * Persian is mainly SOV (verbs appear at the end) with very
: flexibility in its word order like Turkish, and unlike Kurdish.
If the sentences are in question form, Turkish and Perian are completely
different, your remark is not always true,
: * Persian -unlike kurdish- is a language with discourse marker /ra/
: showing similarity with Arabic mobtada marker /o/.
Give an example, your point is not clear,
: * ....
*????????? not sufficient,
:
: These are some of the reasons that show Kurdish language in parallel to
: other aspects of Kurdish culture (traditions, dress, songs... )
: has preserved its essence (at least from thousands years ago), despite
: lots of invasions.
:
: Don't show your ignorance on a public media.
Dont show your stupudity on a public media, I did not make any comment
on your song, dress etc, language is the topic of our discussion, not
your dress etc.
:
: >century, therfore after that Turkish language was invaded by many Persian
: >words.
:
: It is not just words. You have also grammatical borrowing from Persian
: and Iranian languages. /ki/ the clause marker is one of them. In Turkish,
: markers appear at the end. Turkic languages lack finite embedded clauses and
: they have borrowed it from Persian or Russian.
We have adapted many phrase and clauses from Persian during the Ottoman
Empiror, but not from Russion,
I am sending your rely back, it does fit pretty well here,
It is better sometimes to close your mouth on issues that you are
ignorant.
:
: Don't tell me that all Turkic languages are the same.
All Turkic language are the SAME. The diffrences are due to
interactions with other countries like Chine etc.
: Azeri and
: Turkish are similar dialects of one branch of Turkic languages. The
: ones which are closer to Mongolia are different.
:
: >HAKAN
:
: It is better sometimes to close your mouth on issues that you are
: ignorant. God only knows everything.
And you!!!!!
:
: And please don't send your Turkish stuff on this list. INTERNET is a
: public media with its rules. Either English or Kurdish on SCK.
:
: I am wondering why there are not so many ignorant people from other
: soc.culture.groups that cross-post their stuff in their language
: to this group? YOU ARE A SHAME ON THE FACES OF YOUR FELLOW TURKS.
Read my reply below, my dear brain-washed friend,
:
: And Please don't answer in Turkish to these ignorants. It encourages them
: to remain in their ignorance.
Another brainwashed guy, if someone starts discussion in Turkish, I keep
on sending my messages in Turkish, as your folk Murat did, he sent his
messeges in turkish both to SCT on SCK, and he wrote in Turkish, I did
not start cross-posting, I only followed-up his message, but you could
not realize it. Actually, I do not expect from you more.
:
: With best wishes for people like you to come out of your ignorance.
:
: - Siamak
:
: PS Sia-mak IS NOT a Turkish name with the meaning of "to make black" :)
: It is an old Iranian name. It means "black mountain".
:
You are talking with yourself, you want to prove somethings for yourself,
no body claimed that your name is Turkish. I am certain that he tasted
beef from mad-cow.
HAKAN
Mehmet Gokturk
Cola) wrote:
Do you know what Timur did in Anatolia? Do you know the reason behind
the having multi-wives of Ottoman sultans after Bayezid? Guess why?
"Races cannot be good-bad, but the people or culture can..."
regards..
gokturk
there is no pure language by the way...
next time have a valid e-mail so that we can reply without bothering net...