HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Gjorgji Pulevski
reports that are available online on various populations -
Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=1012271619
----------------------------------
Tissue Antigens
Volume 53 Issue 3 Page 213 - March 1999
The origin of Cretan populations as determined by characterization of
HLA alleles
Authors affiliations:
A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, P. Iliakis2*, M. Gonzбlez-Hevilla1, J.
Longбs1, E. Gуmez-Casado1, K. Sfyridaki2, J. Trapaga1, C.
Silvera-Redondo1, C. Matsouka2, J. Martнnez-Laso1
Abstract:
-----------------------------------
Tissue Antigens
Volume 57 Issue 2 Page 118 - February 2001
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Authors affiliations:
A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
Gуmez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2,
V. Zdravkovska2, J. Martнnez-Laso1
Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the
Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR,
-DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first
time determined and the results compared to those of other
Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic
distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis
have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1)
Macedonians belong to the older Mediterranean substratum, like
Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French,
Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,
2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who
do not belong to the older Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are
found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both
Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as
*0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304
and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and
Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and
finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour
joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when
these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and
might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people
living in pharaonic Egypt.
--------------------------------
Tissue Antigens
Volume 57 Issue 3 Page 208 - March 2001
Distributions of HLA class I alleles and haplotypes in Bulgarians -
contribution to understanding the origin of the population
Authors affiliation:
M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
Abstract: In this study we present for the first time HLA class I
allele and haplotype frequencies at DNA level in the Bulgarian
population.
----------------------------------
1: Tissue Antigens 2000 Mar;55(3):239-49 Related Articles, Books,
LinkOut
HLA genes in Arabic-speaking Moroccans: close relatedness to Berbers
and Iberians.
Gomez-Casado E, del Moral P, Martinez-Laso J, Garcia-Gomez A, Allende
L, Silvera-Redondo C, Longas J, Gonzalez-Hevilla M, Kandil M, Zamora
J, Arnaiz-Villena A.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, 12 de Octubre,
Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain.
-----------------------------------
Tissue Antigens
Volume 57 Issue 4 Page 308 - April 2001
HLA alleles and haplotypes in the Turkish population: relatedness to
Kurds, Armenians and other Mediterraneans
Authors affiliations:
------------------------------------
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=1012271619
Macedonia Forum: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/64646
astron
Could it show that the Macedonians were not Slavs ?
Considering that Homo Sapiens originated from Africa , what does your data show ?
The present occupiers of fyrom are not macedonians , but a fabricated nationality , invented and used by Communists in Tito's Yugoslavia to put irredentist " pressure " on Greece and Bulgaria .
Your leaders in Skopje are more realistic than you though , and that is what counts , as you could easily end up losing the little territory that you have .
Also , its against Australian laws to incite racial hatred on the internet .
WHOIS Query Result for 144.134.203.224:
Telstra (NET-TELECOMAU4)
Network Development and
Construction Branch 32 Pirie Street Adelaide
South, 5000
AU
Netname: TELECOMAU4
Netblock: 144.134.0.0 - 144.134.255.255
Coordinator:
TELSTRA CORPORATION (HM100-ORG-ARIN) hostm...@broadway.bigpond.com
+61 2 9395 9038
Domain System inverse mapping provided by:
SY-DNS01.TMNS.NET.AU 139.134.2.2
SY-DNS02.TMNS.NET.AU 139.134.2.18
Record last updated on 28-Aug-2001.
Database last updated on 9-Feb-2002 19:55:58 EDT.
--
Turkey's territorial claims on Greece are nothing short of " Lebensraum" ; Hitler's living -- space justification for invading Poland and partitioning it with the Soviet Union in 1939-1941 , thus triggering World War 2 .
The only viable solution to the problems of our region is the partition of the Republic of Turkey .
The link between the United States and muslim Turkey must be severed in the interests of the christians which Turkey seeks to exterminate .
Muslim Turkey's corrupt supporters within the United States Administration must be neutralized politically .
That is the duty of every christian in America.
+++Official Greek Government References For Turkey's Aggression Against Greece And Cyprus since 1923+++
http://www.haf.gr/ An excellent detailed site in English( not propaganda , but fact ) showing how Turkey's behavior is IDENTICAL TO ADOLPH HITLER'S !
http://www.mod.gr/
http://monomahos.fsn.net/
http://www.thiteia.org/
http://www.akrites.org/
http://www.hellasarmy.gr/
http://www.army.gr/
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/
http://www.sse.gr/
http://www.stratologia.gr/
Ilya Talev
"Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> wrote in message
news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
>
> Tissue Antigens
> Volume 57 Issue 2 Page 118 - February 2001
>
> HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
>
> Authors affiliations:
>
> A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> Gуmez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2,
> V. Zdravkovska2, J. Martнnez-Laso1
> Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the
> Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR,
> -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first
> time determined and the results compared to those of other
> Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic
> distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis
> have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1)
> Macedonians belong to the older Mediterranean substratum, like
> Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French,
> Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,
> 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who
> do not belong to the older Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are
> found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
> people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Fantastic Discoveries!
However, since the "Macedonian" data is
derived from the blood bank in Skopje
(Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood
Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of Macedonia),
it cannot possibly exclude Albabian and Gypsy
population of the city of Skopje since the bags
with blood for transfusion all over the world
do not state the name or the nationality of the
donor.
The second greatest revelation in this article is
that as soon as Bulgarians or Pomaks, or Albanians
become "Greeks" (due to the peculiar policies
of the Greek State over the last 100 years),
their genotype becomes Ethiopian.
IT
Agamemnon
> reports that are available online on various populations -
> Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN GREEKS
since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
2) That Egypt was ruled by the Greek Hyksos Dynasty descended from Io, since
Ethiopian DNA is derives from earlier Greek DNA.
3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus were
colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the Phoenicians
were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
http://www.enthymia.co.uk/Myths2.htm
>
>
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122716
Agamemnon
"Ilya Talev" <ta...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:e0v98.56306$8d1.15...@news1.rdc1.md.home.com...
Says who.
The Macedonian DNA comes from the Aristotle University in northern Greece.
>
> The second greatest revelation in this article is
> that as soon as Bulgarians or Pomaks, or Albanians
> become "Greeks" (due to the peculiar policies
> of the Greek State over the last 100 years),
> their genotype becomes Ethiopian.
That's because Arnaiz-Villena who wrote this article is an Afro-Centrist
FRAUD and a RACIST who cant even read a time line which shows that the
Ethiopian tribes in question are descended from Greeks who colonised Egypt.
The split between the main branch of the Acheans and Cypriots predates the
split between one sub-branch one the Achaeans and Ethiopians.
>
> IT
>
>
WolfWolf
"astron" <ast...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
news:3C667AF5...@bigpond.com.au...
>
> Also , its against Australian laws to incite racial hatred on the internet
.
>
Hitler's living -- space justification for invading Poland and partitioning
it with the Soviet Union in 1939-1941 , thus triggering World War 2 .
>
> The only viable solution to the problems of our region is the partition of
the Republic of Turkey .
>
> The link between the United States and muslim Turkey must be severed in
the interests of the christians which Turkey seeks to exterminate .
>
> Muslim Turkey's corrupt supporters within the United States
Administration must be neutralized politically .
>
> That is the duty of every christian in America.
>
Comparing Hitler's attack against Poland - and your wish of partitioning
other countries.
astron re Voyager, you have never exposed more clearly your paleo-nazi
attitude.
Go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego! My Ozo
drinking & Suflaki eating schmuck...
WolfWolf
The European
choro-nik
"Agamemnon" wrote...
> What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
>
> 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN
GREEKS
> since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
> 2) That Egypt was ruled by the Greek Hyksos Dynasty descended from Io,
since
> Ethiopian DNA is derives from earlier Greek DNA.
==or the other way round!!! Are greeks really of Habeshi origin?
>
> 3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus
were
> colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
> 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the Phoenicians
> were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to watch
different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human species
is no different.
> 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly? (june, this is not a
come-on for you. so don't pop up your head or i'll chop it off for you. do
you get it? comprehende?)
gogu
news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
> At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> reports that are available online on various populations -
> Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
>
>
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122716
19
BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
First, what an UNBIASED site:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Second, have a look at the names of the "authors":-)))))
A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
G?mez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2, V.
Zdravkovska2, J. Mart?nez-Laso1
or:
M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
Clearly UNBIASED sources:-))))))))))))))
Geeeeet lost you idiot slav extremist!
First try not to starve and then come and speak about Macedonia, you
BARBARIAN!
Now read -if you are able to do that- to see what REALLY reliable sources
are telling about Greeks.
Science has resolved the racial origins by genetic methods, once and for
all. This discussion is obsolete. Wake up you are in the 21st century
--------------------------------------------
Last major publication from last year's Science:
The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant
Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective
by
Semino et al
SCIENCE VOL 290 10 NOVEMBER 2000
p.1155-1159
Basic conlusions about what interests you (You like it or not):
Greeks are VERY closely related to Albanians and Sardinians.
They are VERY distant to Turks (Middle Eastern descent mostly) and
Macedonians or FYROMwhatever (Slavic descent mostly, close to Croats,
Chechs, Ukrainians).
In Greeks (and Albanians and Sardinians) THE THREE MOST prominent
european markers are represented almost equally (27-33%), hence they are
almost at the center of the european tree and that's why they are
genetically the most complex european populations.
Check these figures to see where you belong:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/290/5494/1155/F1
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/290/5494/1155/F3
--------------------------------------------------
Linguistics, genetics and Italy
Italy is the best-studied country in Europe in terms of gene frequency
analyses and is relatively well-known palaeolinguistically, too. Recent
studies of the genetic distributions have attempted to investigate the links
between historical, ethnic and linguistic data (Barbujani & Sokal 1991a,b;
Moral et al 1994; Piazza et al 1988). Piazza et al (1988) performed a
Principal Components analysis of 34 alleles, excluding those 'clearly
correlated with environmental or pathological factors' (ibid: 210), from
individuals whose families were not of recent migration. Sardinia, which is
highly isolated genetically from Italy (and the rest of Europe) was also
excluded from the analysis. The authors argue that many of the regions of
genetic difference could be correlated with historical evidence of either
immigrant groups or language areas. The best discrimination was of
historically-attested areas of Greek immigration (Magna Graecia) from the
rest of Italy. Southern Italian populations are genetically similar to those
of modern Greece, and a difference between east and west Sicilia was also
ascribed to Greek colonization in the east, and Phoenician colonization in
the west (ibid: 206). The second PC appeared to discriminate Etruria; and
the third PC the area of Liguria, and another in east Italy, the latter
roughly corresponding to the area of proto-historic East Italic inscriptions
(see below).
A different kind of statistical analysis using 61 alleles (Barbujani & Sokal
1991b) provided rather contradictory results, such as the 'lack of genetic
differentiation of Sicily' (ibid: 408), though they concurred that borders
showing 'sharp genetic change' were discernible around Magna Graecia and
Etruria. However they were concentrating on whether modern linguistic
differences showed any relation to modern genetic differentiation. They
concluded that in Italy 'there are cases in which linguistic differentiation
appears to maintain, and not only to be correlated with, genetic
differentiation' (ibid: 409).
A third example from Italy relates to Sardinia. The city of Alghero in the
north-west is said historically to have been captured by the rulers of
Aragon (Spain) in the mid-13th century, the Sardinians ejected and a
Catalonian colony founded. The Catalan language is still spoken there today.
A genetic analysis of 61 alleles concluded that
'the genetic markers do not support any interpretation of the cultural
affinities ... between Alghero and Catalonia, in terms of genetic proximity.
This lack of fit between the linguistic evidence and the genetic evidence
makes Alghero an exception to the usually important parallelism between
linguistics and genetics'
(Moral et al 1994: 452)
http://archaeology.lamp.ac.uk/amarkp/PUBLIST/GLASN1.HTM
------------------------------------------------
And as for how INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY regards ancient Macedonians, please
have a look at the Britannica, you slav fascist!
--------------------------------
History
"Macedonia's Greek ethnic composition was overturned by the invasion of
Slavic peoples into the Balkans in the 6th and 7th centuries AD. Most of the
region subsequently fell under the sway of the first Bulgarian empire in the
9th century. The Bulgarians were Christianized during this period by
disciples of Saints Cyril and Methodius, whose adaptation of Greek
characters to a Slavonic dialect spoken in southern Macedonia eventually
became the Cyrillic alphabet. For the rest of the Middle Ages parts of the
region were variously ruled by the Byzantine Empire, the second Bulgarian
empire, and the Serbian empire."
Copyright © 1994-2000 Encyclop?dia Britannica, Inc.
--------------------------------
Here you can find some more ancient sources, showing YOU are a fucking LIAR:
--------------------------------
"The Macedonian people and their kings were of Greek stock, as their
traditions and the scanty remains of their language combine to testify."
John Bagnell Bury, "A History of Greece to the Death of Alexander the
Great", The Modern Library, New Uork, 1913
"A strong Illyrian and Thracian influence can thus be recognized in
Macedonian speech and manners. These however are only trifles
compared with the Greek character of the Macedonian nationality;
for example the names of the true full blooded Macedonians,
especially of the princes and nobles, are purely Greek in their
formation and sounds."
Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", Norton & Company, 1967
"the majority of the new generation of historians ......
agree, and rightly so, that the Macedonians were Greeks".
Herman Bengtson, Griechische Geschichte4, Muenchen 1969, p. 305:
"That the Macedonians were of Greek stock seems certain. The claim made by
the Argead dynasty to be of Argive descent may be no more than a generally
accepted myth, but Macedonian proper names, such as Ptolemaios or Philippos,
are good Greek names, and the names of the Macedonian months, although
differed from those of Athens or Sparta, were also Greek. The language
spoken by the Macedonians, which Greeks of the classical period found
intelligible, appears to have been a primitive north-west Greek dialect,
much influenced by the languages of the neighboring barbarians."
J.R. Hamilton, "Alexander the Great", London, 1973
"In favour of the Greek identity of the Macedonians is what we know of their
language: the place-names, names of the months and personal names, which are
without exception Greek in roots and form. This suggests that they did not
merely use Greek as a lingua franca, but spoke it as natives (though with a
local accent which turns Philip into Bilip, for example). The Macedonians'
own traditions derived their royal house from one Argeas, son of Macedon,
son of Zeus, and asserted that a new dynasty, the Temenids, had its origin
in the sixth century from emigrants from Argos in Greece, the first of these
kings was Perdiccas. This tradition became a most important part of the
cultural identity of Macedon. It enabled Alexander I to compete at the
Olympic Games (which only true Hellenes were allowed to do).... The
Macedonians, then, were racially Greek."
Richard Stoneman, "Alexander the Great", Routiledge,
London and New York, 1977
"Modern scholarship, after many generations of argument, now almost
unanimously recognizes them as Greeks, a branch of the Dorians and
"Northwest Greeks" who, after long residence in the north Pindus region,
migrated eastward. The Macedonian language has not survived in any written
text, but the names of individuals, places, gods, months and the like
suggest strongly that it was a Greek dialect. Macedonians institutes, both
secular and religious, had marked Hellenic characteristics, and legends
identify or link the people with the Dorians."
John V.A. Fine, "The Ancient Greeks a Critical History", Harvard University
Press, Massachusetts, 1983
"That the Macedonians and their kings did in fact
speak a dialect of Greek and bore Greek names
may be regarded nowadays as certain."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia",
Univ. of California Press, LA, 1990 Pg 3
"Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their
origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II. Then as now,
political struggle created the prejudice. The orator Aischines once even
found it necessary, in order to counteract the prejudice vigorously fomented
by his opponents, to defend Philip on this issue and describe him at a
meeting of the Athenian Popular Assembly as being 'Entirely Greek'.
Demosthenes' allegations were lent on appearance of credibility by the fact,
apparent to every observer, that the life-style of the Macedonians, being
determined by specific geographical and historical conditions, was different
from that of a Greek city-state. This alien way of life was, however, common
to western Greeks of Epeiros, Akarnania and Aitolia, as well as to the
Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted. Only
as a consequence of the political disagreement with Macedonia was
the issue raised at all."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", Univ. of California Press, LA,
1990
"The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most
easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia
but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their
monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia,
suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in
principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle
the Illyrian problem at its roots."
Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press,
1990.
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same
footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for service
in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound
the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were doubled.
Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the
West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994
MACEDON
"Outlying Greek kingdom north of Thessaly, inland from the Thermaic Gulf, on
the northwest Aegean coast...Its name came from an ancient Greek word
meaning highlanders...Macedon was inhabited by various peoples of
Dorian-Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian descent, who spoke a Greek dialect and
worshipped Greek gods...Unification and modernization came gradually, at the
hands of kings of Dorian descent."
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World.", Oxford, 1995
"Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in
the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and
Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians
spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their
territory, they were essentially Greeks."
Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin
Publ., 1996
------------------------------------
And here is what YOUR EX PRESIDENT Kiro Gligorov believes YOU are:
--------------------------------
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not
descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February
26,
1992, p. 35. )
--------------------------------
Now go and take your Prozac, you will NEVER be Macedonians! YOU ARE SLAVS!
Point!
LEARN ALBANIAN!!! NOW!!!!
WolfWolf
"gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a46ss3$fnb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> ? "Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
> >
> >
>
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122716
> 19
>
>
> BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
> First, what an UNBIASED site:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> Second, have a look at the names of the "authors":-)))))
>
> A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> G?mez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2, V.
> Zdravkovska2, J. Mart?nez-Laso1
> or:
> M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
>
> Clearly UNBIASED sources:-))))))))))))))
> Geeeeet lost you idiot slav extremist!
> First try not to starve and then come and speak about Macedonia, you
> BARBARIAN!
Gogu - Barbarian is a synonym for the antique Macedonians, comprende? So why
shouldn't he speak about it, moron?
And if names give indication about being biased - look at your own. It
couldn't be worse!!
Doesn't it show your origin as mongrel from south Moldovia?
Now go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego! My
ivaylo p. ivanov
....
>
> Fantastic Discoveries!
>
> However, since the "Macedonian" data is
> derived from the blood bank in Skopje
> (Tissue Typing laboratory. Institute of Blood
> Transfusion, Skopje. Republic of Macedonia),
> it cannot possibly exclude Albabian and Gypsy
> population of the city of Skopje since the bags
> with blood for transfusion all over the world
> do not state the name or the nationality of the
> donor.
I don't know about Macedonia but I can say for sure that in Bulgaria
till the mid 80-s (and may be to this day) transfusion blood bags were
labeled with the name (and thus the nationality) of the donor.
Ivaylo.
ivaylo p. ivanov
...
> A different kind of statistical analysis using 61 alleles (Barbujani & Sokal
> 1991b) provided rather contradictory results, such as the 'lack of genetic
> differentiation of Sicily' (ibid: 408), though they concurred that borders
> showing 'sharp genetic change' were discernible around Magna Graecia and
> Etruria. However they were concentrating on whether modern linguistic
> differences showed any relation to modern genetic differentiation. They
> concluded that in Italy 'there are cases in which linguistic differentiation
> appears to maintain, and not only to be correlated with, genetic
> differentiation' (ibid: 409).
I am very surprised that a Greek would like to cite this particular
study since it showed that there is a clear genetic disequilibrium
between the Greeks of Northern (Macedonia/Thrace) and Southern Greece
(something I've discussed at length here before). This is one of only
two disequilibria that they found in the whole of Europe which could
not be explained by linguistic differences!!! Surprisingly (or perhaps
not surprisingly), no such genetic barrier existed between Northern
Greeks and Bulgarians or Northern Greeks and Macedonians (the Skopje
type). Incidentally, it has been know for a long time that the Greeks
of Southern Greece have sharply different allele frequencies compared
to people populating the rest of the Balkans (including Northern
Greece)!
Ivaylo.
ivaylo p. ivanov
> At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> reports that are available online on various populations -
> Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
>
.....
>
> HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
>
> Authors affiliations:
>
> A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> Gуmez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2,
> V. Zdravkovska2, J. Martнnez-Laso1
.....
>
> Distributions of HLA class I alleles and haplotypes in Bulgarians -
> contribution to understanding the origin of the population
> Authors affiliation:
>
> M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
> Abstract: In this study we present for the first time HLA class I
> allele and haplotype frequencies at DNA level in the Bulgarian
> population.
.....
Every study on this topic that comes from a team from the Balkans is
automatically a suspect!!! For respectable genetic studies on this
topic see the references quoted by "Gogu". In any case as alleles
under strong selective pressure the HLA haplotypes are not very
appropriate for determining ancestral relationships between
populations.
Ivaylo.
Ivaylo.
June R Harton
> reports that are available online on various populations -
> Macedonians,
Macedonians are only Greek. The FYROMians are Wedst Bulgarians.
> Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
It is completely bogus...the particpants were lied to by the FYROMians
and got it all wrong and completely made fools of themselves, laddie.
It is time for you fyrom'ers to stop lying to yourselves:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
June R Harton
"choro-nik" <chor...@choro.com> wrote in message
news:5IA98.3266$dL6.22...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly?
Go wash your mouth out with soap.
It is time for you to stop lying to yourself:
Gjorgji Pulevski
The Y chromosome is passed mostly unchanged from father to son, along with
occassional identifying mutations, allowing a detailed comparison of
patrilineal relationships descent within and between families and population
groups, just as mitochondrial DNA has permitted comparisons of matrilineal
relationships and descent. These comparisons have shed light on the origins
of modern humans, our relationships with other primates, how populations
spread across the globe and mixed with each other, and how individuals are
related to each other. Below are links to news reports and scientific
articles relating to the Y chromosome.
Images
Phylogeny Tree (Underhill, Peter A., et. al. "Y chromosome sequence
variation and the history of human populations.)
Distance Tree (ibid)
Haplotype Tree (Underhill, Peter A., et. al. "Detection of Numerous Y
Chromosome Biallelic Polymorphisms by Denaturing High-Performance Liquid
Chromatography.")
Population Tree (The Central Siberian Origin for Native American Y
Chromosomes, AJHG)
Articles
Human Population Genetics Laboratory - Publications (Stanford University)
The American Journal of Human Genetics Electronic Edition (The American
Society of Human Genetics)
The American Society of Human Genetics (Abstracts)
Hammer Group (Selected Publications and Y Chromosome Consortium Newsletter)
University of Leicester Dept. of Genetics (Dr Mark A. Jobling)
Why Y? The Y Chromosome in the Study of Human Evolution, Migration and
Prehistory (Neil Bradman and Mark Thomas)
Genetic variation on the Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA (The Clinical
Molecular Genetics Society)
Y-LineT - DNA-based test designed to help you research your genealogy or
family history (Oxford Ancestors)
Y-chromosome Adam
Comparisons between men around the world give a family tree for mankind
suggesting that the most recent common male ancestor lived about 59,000
years ago in Africa, some 84,000 years after "Mitochondrial Eve".
Adam and Eve probably never met (Nature Genetics)
Genetic 'Adam never met Eve' (BBC News)
Study Boosts 'Out of Africa' Theory (Discovery News)
Boost for 'Out of Africa' theory (BBC News)
Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson's relationship to slave descendents
Y Chromosome DNA Data on Jefferson and Hemmings (Robert J. Huskey)
Did Thomas Jefferson Father Slave Children? (Nova on PBS)
Mapping Jefferson's Y Chromosome (Frontline on PBS)
Jefferson's DNA and Sally Hemings (Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.)
Thomas Jefferson - Sally Hemings DNA Study (family historian)
Jefferson-Hemings DNA Testing: An On-Line Resource (Monticello)
Jefferson's secret life (US News)
A Jefferson descendant emerges in Issaquah (Seattle Times)
Jews
Jewish relationship to Arabs, a common ancestor for Cohen priests,
relationship to African tribe
Jewish Population Genetics (NY Times)
Jews and Arabs are 'genetic brothers' (BBC News)
Origins and diversity of Jewish Y-chromosome haplotypes (ASHG)
Tracing the Cohanim (Nova on PBS)
The Lemba, The Black Jews of Southern Africa (Nova on PBS)
The Genetics of Jewish Populations (Ethan T. Vishniac)
Americans
Native American relationship to Central Siberians
The Central Siberian Origin for Native American Y Chromosomes (American
Journal of Human Genetics)
Male Sex Chromosome May Reveal Migration (Science Magazine)
Y Chromosome Haplotypes Reveal Distinct Migration Patterns in Siberia and
the Americas (ASHG*)
Europeans
95% of Europeans are descended from just 10 stone-age men
DNA study traces ancient ancestry of Europeans (AP/SF Chronicle)
Europe's 10 founding 'fathers' (BBC News)
Europe's seven female founders (BBC News)
A synopsis of the entire European Y-chromosome biallelic haplotype spectrum
(ASHG*)
Creationists
Typical distortions by a "scientific creationist"
Are We Evolving (Hugh Ross Ph.D.)
Y-chromosome Reveals The Genesis Flood Account. (Hugh Ross, Ph.D.)
Siberians
DNA & the Peopling of Siberia (Smithsonian)
Irish
Scientists use Irish genes to uncover Europe's past (AP/SF Chronicle)
Y-chromosome variation and Irish origins (Nature Magazine, 3/23/00)
Geneticists Show That Irish Are A Race Apart (Reuters)
For fair use only.
Gjorgji Pulevski
-------------------------------------
"Gjorgji Pulevski"
June R Harton
> "Gjorgji Pulevski"
> > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
Complete garbage, you mean:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to>
> Newsgroups:
>
alt.culture.fyrom,alt.culture.macedonia,alt.culture.macedonia,alt.news.fyrom
> ,alt.news.macedonia,soc.history.ancient
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:37 PM
> Subject: Possible Academic FRAUD by Science Magazine
>
> I have just been reading the SMALL PRINT in the "Science" article that has
> been placed under scrutiny here and have discovered MAJOR irregularities
in
> the sample.
>
> Below "Table 1" on page 1157 of the report published in "10 NOVEMBER 2000
> VOL 290 SCIENCE www.sciencemag.org"*, there is the following paragraph.
>
> "?Several samples were previously described (10, 11, 28). Samples not
> previously examined included 23 French, 16 Germans, 39 northern Italians,
45
> Sardinians, 58 Croats, 20 Macedonians from northern Greece, 55 Poles, 50
> Ukrainians, 20 Syrians, 24 Saami, 43 Udmurts, and 46 Mari."
>
> It is clear that the people referred to by Michael Mackinnon in his
analysis
> of "Table 1" are far from being a population from FYROM but are Greeks,
NOT
> Slavs from FYROM but GREEKS. 20 Northern GREEKS were used in the sample
in
> "Table 1".
>
> I apologise to Michael Mackinnon since he was right that I did not read
the
> article properly.
>
> The data here has been FRAUDULENTLY presented and the entire article is an
> Academic FRAUD beyond measure, since an "ethnic" term which has been
utterly
> REJECTED and BANNED by all international organisations such as the UN, EU,
> IOC and NATO, because it is under dispute, has been used to describe a
> statistical population without any form of explanation or definition.
>
> Until it is clarified just WHO these so-called "Macedonians" really are
> these statistics and any research based on them can have NO scientific
> validity.
>
> 1) Just WHO are the so-called "Macedonians from northern Greece" referred
to
> on page 1157. Are these people Ethnic Macedonian Greeks or are they
> FYRO-Bulgarian Speakers from Greece.
>
> If they are FYRO-Bulgarian Speakers how can the sample be guaranteed to be
> ethnically pure and free from contamination from ethnic Greeks.
>
> If they are ethnic Greeks then why the hell have the been separated from
the
> other Greek sample.
>
> What point is the Editor trying to make ? That the northern Greeks are
Slavs
> ?
>
> 2) Does the population described as "Macedonians" also include Bulgarian
> Slavs who were living in FYROM.
>
> If so WHY choose samples from different geographic ares. The usual
practice
> is to make certain beyond any doubt that the people sampled have been
living
> in the same geographic region for many generations, by choosing isolated
> villages. But there are NO isolated FYRO-Bulgarian villages in northern
> Greece. Why choose Greece ?
>
> If not WHY were no FYRO-Bulgarian Speakers from FYROM used. Why take a
> sample only from Greece and not FYROM.
>
> 3) Does the data used in Fig 3 on page 1158 also include these Greek
> citizens or have these been excluded. The note give does NOT make this
> clear.
>
> If so how can this sample be said to be valid. It is mixing different
> populations which may cluster in different places or which may be
> contaminated.
>
> If the sample is INHOMOGENEOUS then the analysis is FATALLY FLAWED.
>
> What are the likes of Cavalli-Sforza doing putting their names to this
> PERVERSION.
>
> This is DAMMING evidence why the term "Macedonia" can NEVER be used to
> describe either FYROM or its people.
>
> It has made a MOCKERY of science !!!!!
>
>
> *Title of Article "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens
in
> Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective"
June R Harton
"Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> wrote in message
news:IxL98.5131$BE4....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
It was obviously nonsense by the conclusions and nonsense
association of various different peoples who are unconnected.
Also note the West Bulgarians who participated in it!
It is entirely a scam. Also the author factually stated again complete
garbage as related to ancient history and historians. He falsely
records Danaus as Black and misreports Homer and Herodotos.
He also does not know that Herodotos specifically relates where
Blacks actually were and who they were.
All in all the 'work' is not worth the paper it was printed on.
from: Spirit Of Truth
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:tPJ98.1311$Aw.291...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> wrote in message
> news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > Macedonians,
> > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
>
> It is completely bogus...the particpants were lied to by the FYROMians
> and got it all wrong and completely made fools of themselves, laddie.
How can you say this, Junebugger?
Have you been there when the tests were made?
Do you know the test persons and their identities?
Are you so hungry that you mixed among them in order to get some free
biscuits after the tests?
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
>
> "Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> wrote in message
> news:IxL98.5131$BE4....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > "Gjorgji Pulevski"
> > > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to>
> > Newsgroups:
> >
>
alt.culture.fyrom,alt.culture.macedonia,alt.culture.macedonia,alt.news.fyrom
> > ,alt.news.macedonia,soc.history.ancient
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:37 PM
> > Subject: Possible Academic FRAUD by Science Magazine
> >
> > I have just been reading the SMALL PRINT in the "Science" article that
has
> > been placed under scrutiny here and have discovered MAJOR irregularities
> in
> > the sample.
Be careful, Junebugger, when quoting from A.
He has been proven REPEATEDLY to be guilty of ACADEMIC FRAUD!
WolfWolf
The European
Voyager
http://www.britannica.com/magazine/article?content_id=13529&query=historyanc
1) What ancient historians wrote
Polybios
"In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the kinsmen Macedonians and their
ruler, Philip, about the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the
Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people (Romans), ...but now
if you invite them do not you see that you invite them against your ownself
and the whole of Hellas. ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians
against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the
Thessalians, almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who
are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your
ancestors, ... be afraid of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the
Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most influential amongst yourselves
oppose that then stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.
(Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania)
"How highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of
their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of
the security of Hellas? For who is not aware that Hellas would have
constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the
Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?"
(The Histories of Polybios, IX, 35, 2)
Herodotos
"Now that the men of this family are Hellenes, sprung from Perdiccas, as
they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge,
and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been
already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia"
(Herodotus, The Histories 8.43)
"Tell your king who sent you how his Hellenic viceroy of Macedonia has
received you hospitably... "
(Herodotus V, 20, 4)
"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Hellenes, as they themselves
say, I myself chance to know"
(Herodotus V, 22, 1)
Thoukididis
"The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the
father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from
Argos"
(Thucididis 99,3)
"In all there were about three thousand Hellenic heavy infantry, accompanied
by all the Macedonian cavalry with the Chalcidians, near one thousand
strong, besides an immense crowd of barbarians."
(Thukididis 4.124)
Arrian
"He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in
the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of
Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from
the barbarians dwelling in Asia",
(Arrian I, 16, 7)
"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great
harm, though we had done them no prior injury;... I have been appointed
hegemon of the Greeks... "
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II, 14, 4)
Aeschines
....at the congress of the Lakedaimonian allies and the rest of the
Hellenes, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat,
was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control,
he joined the rest of the Hellenes in voting..."
(Aeschines, On the Embassy 32)
Plutarchos
"But he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes'; that is to
say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things
Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every every continent, to search out the
uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the boiunds of Macedonia to the
farthest Ocean, and to diseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic
justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly
in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes.
But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate
Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and
progenitor of my family, and desire that victorius Hellenes should dance
again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage
mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos...' "
(Plutarchos, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332 a-b)
"Yet through Alexander, Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods
of the Hellenes ... Alexander established more than seventy cities among
savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Hellenic magistracies ... Egypt would
not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its
Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Hellenic city, for
by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the
worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its
influence.'
(Plutarchos Moralia. On the Fortune of Alexander, I, 328D, 329A)
"When he (Alexander the Great) arrived at Ilion he sacrificed to Athena and
offered libations to the Heroes."
(Plutarchos, Alexander 15)
Isokratis
"It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom,
to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race."
(Isokratis, To Philip 127)
Pausanias
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the
Hellenic Assembly: ... the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race
... In my day there were thirty members: six each from Nikopolis, Macedonia
and Thessaly ... "
(Pausanias Phokis VIII, 2 & 4)
Diodorus of Sicily
"Such was the end of Philip ... He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame
as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a
throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Hellenes, while the
growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his
adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.95.1-2)
"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession
statues of the twelve Gods wrought with great artistry and adorned with a
dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these
was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip
himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods.
Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white
cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and
followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was
protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of
spearmen."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.92.5-93.2)
"After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,and his son in
Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the hellenic dialect,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1)
"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant
campaigns. ...The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady
marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing
was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the
barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)
Titus Livius
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language"
(T. Livius XXXI,29, 15)
2) Historical Evidence of the Greekness of Macedonia
All the historical sources are agreed on the location of Macedonia: it lay
between the Aegean Sea and the Mounts Cambounia, Pieria and Olympus to the
south, lakes Ochrid and Prespa and Mounts Bambouna, Skomion (Rila Planina)
and Rhodopon to the north, the river Nestos to the east and the Grammos and
Pindus ranges to the west.
The inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
Greek tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
the Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
spoke was among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities with the
Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion of the
Madeconians was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and traditions
were those found throughout the Greek world (Wells, The Outline of History,
Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Glimpses of World History).
King Philip II of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great - to whom Skopje
is currently attempting to attribute a 'Slavomacedonian' (sic) identity -
acted not simply as Greeks but as Panhellenic leaders in the sense that they
embodied the old idea of the formation of a united Greek state with the
amalgamation of the Greek city-states. As Johann Gustav Droysen - among
other scholars - points out in his History of Alexander the Great, both
Philip and Alexander "brought to the peoples of Asia and implanted in them
not the Macedonian culture, which had no independent standing, but the Greek
culture".
In subsequent periods, and especially after the appearance in the Balkans of
the Slavs and Bulgars (6th and 7th centuries AD), the geographical area of
Macedonia as defined above continued to be the bulwark and bastion of the
Greek race, just as it had been in antiquity. Polybius calls Macedonia "the
advanced line of defence" and pays tribute to the Macedonians for fighting
the barbarians ('non-Greeks') to preserve the security of the (other)
Greeks" (Polybious, Historiae, Leipzig 1898.). This view is reiterated for
the Byzantine period by the French historian Paul Lemerle in his classic
work Philippe et la Macedoine Orientale (Paris, 1945).
No mention is made of 'Macedonia' or 'Macedonians' as a distinct
ethnological group in any official text of either the recent or the more
distant past. Neither the Treaty of Berlin, for example, nor the Treaty of
San Stefano which was revoked by it make any reference to such concepts. The
official Turkish census of 1905 gives figures for the populations of Greeks,
Bulgarians and "quasi-Bulgarians" in the vilayets of Thessaloniki and
Monastir, where the Greeks were in the majority, but contains no reference
to 'Macedonians'-for the simple reason that none of those questioned stated
such descent.
E.M. Cousinery, who served as French consul in Thessaloniki, informs us in
his Voyage dans la Macedoine (Paris, 1851) that "the Bulgarians" (as the
Slav-speakers were called at that time) "never penetrated into the forests
below Mt. Vermion, where the population remained Greek". The German
geographer Leonard D. Schultze, writing of the same area in his Macedonien
Landschafts und Kulturbilder (Jena, 1927) observes that in terms of
language, tradition, cultural affinities, national will and religion the
inhabitants of Macedonia are "as genuinely Greek as their brothers to the
south". Both these authors repeat, in different ways, what Lord Salisbury,
representing Britain at the Congress of Berlin, said at the session of 19
June 1878: "Macedonia and Thrace are as Greek as Crete".
The fact that a small percentage of the population of this area also speaks
a language which is fundamentally Bulgarian (though containing numerous loan
words from Slav, Greek, Vlach and Albanian) is no proof of Slav or Bulgarian
origins. As demonstrated in the recent past with the forcible removal to
Greece of Greeks from Asia Minor who spoke not a word of the Greek language,
the linguistic criterion, taken in isolation, is of no value whatever.
It is also characteristic that among the freedom-fighters of the 'Macedonian
Struggle' (1904-1908) there were many who spoke the local tongue but were
fully Greek in terms of national consciousness. Their names-Kotas, Dalipis,
Kyrou, Gonos and others-are still remembered. The Russian historian E.
Goloubinsti (Brief History of the Orthodox Churces of Bulgaria, Serbia and
Romania, Moscow 1871) wrote of these Greeks who were not Greek speakers that
"they had relentless hate and profound contempt for everything Bulgarian or
Slav".
After the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, the area occupied by ancient Macedonia
was divided up, 51% of it becoming Greek territory, 38,32% going to
Yugoslavia and 10,11% passing into Bulgarian hands. This brought about a
territorial status in which, with the voluntary exchange of populations
under bilateral agreements (the Treaty of Neuilly, 1919, which provided for
the voluntary exchange of populations between Greece and Bulgaria, and that
of 1926 known as the 'Kafantaris-Moloff agreement') and the settling of
Greeks from Turkey in the Greek part of Macedonia, the population of that
area became purely Greek even though some of the inhabitants were bilingual.
In other words, Greek Macedonia became an entirely homogeneous part of the
Greek State. This became even more the case in the post-Occupation period
(1945-1949), when almost all the bilingual inhabitants of the area whose
national consciousness was not Greek moved to neighbouring states, and to
Yugoslavia in particular, where their quasi-Greek or quasi-Bulgarian
nationalities were mutated into the 'Macedonian' - that is, Slav-Macedonian
- nationality.
The emergence of this state of affairs was preceded by a number of violent
incidents, such as the Ilinden rising, during which the Bulgarians were
alleged to have revolted against the Turks on 2 August 1903 in the town of
Krushevo, near Monastir, where the population was overwhelmingly Greek. In
fact, however, the Bulgarians rose in revolt against the Greek population,
whom they attempted to exterminate-with the co-operation of the
Turks-without significantly harming the other inhabitants of the town
(Douglas Dakin, The Greek Struggle in Macedonia 1897-1915, Thessaloniki
1966).
Until the year 1914, the concepts of "Macedonia" as a Slav state and of "the
Macedonian race" as a separate nationality were completely unknown. The part
of Macedonia which was incorporated into Serbia, like that which became
Bulgarian, was a narrow strip of territory along the Greek border, and it
amounted to a very small proportion of Serbia as a whole. Skopje, which
today claims to be the capital of what it calls "the Republic of Macedonia",
in fact lies a considerable distance outside Macedonia. The "People' s
Republic of Macedonia" later renamed "Socialist Republic of Macedonia", was
founded at the end of the German Occupation as a deliberate political
attempt intended - with the conceding of the Skopja and Tetova districts,
which had never belonged to Macedonia in any sense - to state the presence
of a Serbian population in the thinly-populated part of Macedonia beyond the
Greek frontiers (where the inhabitants were Serbs, Greeks, Greek Vlachs,
quasi-Turkish Muslims and Bulgarians), or, at least, of a Slav-speaking
population with a language of their own and a shifting national
consciousness. The founding of the People's Republic of Macedonia was thus
intended to lead, in the long term, to the re-constitution of a 'Macedonian'
state-though this time under a Slav mantle and with the aim of giving
Yugoslavia an outlet on the Aegean.
Conflicts between National Movements in the 19th Century
During the l9th century, as the Balkan peoples - one after the
other-acquired the nuclei around which their nation-states would be built,
their national ideologies coincided in areas where there were mixed
populations and where there were also overlapping national claims.
One of the areas in which these problems manifested themselves in
particularly acute form was Macedonia. In the l9th century, this part of the
world was the place where four mutually conflicting national ideologies-the
Greek, the Bulgarian, the Serbian and the Albanian-came up against one
another. As a result, it was inevitable that the national identity of the
inhabitants of the area should be one of the fundamental factors in the
promotion of each side's claims.
Leaving aside the Muslims, who made up approximately 1/3 of the total
population, it was at this time extremely difficult to determine the
national identity of the Christian population groups. Until the mid-19th
century, the bulk of the rural population remained faithful to the
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which was the guardian of the
Greek language, the Greek Byzantine tradition and even of historical memory.
This factor reinforced an automatic tendency towards Greek culture on the
part of the population groups which did not speak Greek: in other words,
those which spoke Slav languages, Vlach or Albanian. However, in the
hinterland and particularly in the Slav-speaking areas of central and north
Macedonia, the Greek national ideology advanced slowly and new influences
began to penetrate the region. The antagonism between the Greek and
Bulgarian churches, which became much more acute after the foundation of the
Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870, caused sharp clashes between Greeks and
Bulgarians in the parts of Macedonia which they shared.
The Greek-Bulgarian Conflict
The Greek national ideology attached particular importance to the Classical
Greek past of Macedonia and, naturally enough, stressed the period and
achievements of Alexander the Great. At about this time, a pamphlet telling
the story of Alexander's life and emphasising the continuity of the Greek
nation was printed in the local Slav dialect (though in the Greek alphabet)
and placed on the curriculum in schools in areas still under Turkish
control. Attention was also paid to cultivating and disseminating the
tradition of the Byzantine Empire. The two multi national empires, that of
Alexander and that of Byzantium, provided forceful arguments for believing
that despite their differences of language and custom the various population
groups would choose to identify themselves with Greek culture against a
background of broader state formations. Indeed, Rigas Pherraios had
envisaged something of this nature with his Balkan Federation.
The Bulgarian national ideology, on its part, attempted to graft the
cultural tradition of Bulgaria on to the Slav-speaking population of
Macedonia. There was one major obstacle to this: the fact that a
considerable proportion of the Slav speaking population, particularly in the
central and southern regions, had retained a flourishing Greek historical
tradition. The Bulgarians soon realised that the factor of history militated
against the dissemination of the Bulgarian national ideology, and for that
reason they turned their attention to other mechanisms by which national
consciousness can be moulded.
The first such mechanism which they exploited was that of linguistic
affinity. Subsequently, the Bulgarians attempted to manipulate popular
indignation over the social oppression exerted by the area's Ottoman rulers.
Their aim was to provoke a popular uprising which, suitably handled, might
turn into a Bulgarian national movement. In parallel, the Bulgarians
fomented a confrontation between the rural population and the Greek clergy,
launching a violent attack on what they called the 'spiritual slavery' of
the Ecumenical Patriarchate. With the help of the Bulgarian State, Bulgarian
schools began to spring up in the towns and villages of Macedonia. The basic
aim of these schools was to inspire in the pupils pride in the medieval
history of Bulgaria and particularly in the empire of Tsar Samuel, whose
capital was at Ochrid. The Bulgarian historical armoury was not, of course,
sufficient to eliminate the Greek cultural and historical heritage in
Macedonia, and for that reason a system of forging historical truth by
appropriating historical events and personalities was adopted. The Greek
missionaries Cyril and Methodius were thus presented as Bulgarians, while
their apostolic and civilising work among the Slavs was deemed to be a
'political and cultural achievement on the part of the Bulgarians'. Even
Alexander the Great, who occupied so important a place in the hearts and
minds of the people of Macedonia, was portrayed in popular texts of the time
as being of Bulgarian descent. This is closely related to the nature of
Skopje's current propaganda target, which is to portray Alexander the Great
as a 'Skopjian'.
The Serbs, Romanians and Vlachs were late in appearing on the scene in
Macedonia. However, they, too, saw it as expedient to enlist the aid of the
memory of a Serbian presence in Macedonia in the Middle Ages-regardless of
the fact that from the chronological point of view this presence was
confined to the period of Tsar Dusan and his successors (14th century).
Romanians and Vlachs
A further problem was the appearance among the Vlachs of Macedonia of the
Romanian national ideology in the last two decades of the l9th century. Of
all the non Greek-speaking population groups in Macedonia, the Vlachs had
given the most whole-hearted support to the Greek national ideology. They
were a living example of how a non Greek-speaking population could be fully
incorporated into the Greek national movement. During the War of
Independence of 1821 a similar phenomenon had been observed in the case of
the Christian Albanian-speakers (the 'Arvanites'), who identified themselves
completely with the Greek national cause. However, in the late 1860s the
Romanian national ideology began to penetrate some Vlach communities, and
its impact was still stronger after Romania gained its independence in 1877.
The Romanian 'enlighteners' pointed to the common Latin origin of the
Romanian and Vlach languages and also attempted to exploit the historical
factor, inventing theories about a common historical origin for the Vlachs
of the southern Balkans and the Romanians of the Danubian areas. These
efforts had very limited-though far from negligible-results. One of the
fundamental reasons why the Romanians failed to win the majority of the
Vlachs over to their cause was undoubtedly the fact that for many centuries
the Vlachs had identified themselves with the Greeks by whose side they
lived and had taken active part in all the struggles of the Greek nation for
its liberation. This living memory could not be substituted by historical
references to the Roman period.
A further central problem which arose during the l9th century was that of
whether the Slav-speakers of Macedonia were Bulgarians or belonged to a
separate Slav group. At that time, the term 'Macedonians' was very widely
used, sometimes in a regional and geographical sense and sometimes
culturally. When the Serbians realised that they could not pass the
Slav-speakers of Macedonian of as true Serbs, they chose to put forward the
theory of the existence of a separate Slav-Macedonian people which differed
from the Bulgarians but had affinities with the Slavs. At a later date, some
of the revolutionaries who emerged from the ranks of the Bulgarian national
movement began to promote the idea of an autonomous 'Macedonian' state which
would be independent even of Bulgaria. They took as their slogan "Macedonia
for the Macedonians", but in effect this was only a tactical maneuver.
Although the leaders of this movement appeared to be supporting the creation
of an independent Macedonia, they made no attempt to interfere with the
Bulgarian historical identity of the Slavs of Macedonia, thus demonstrating
that in fact they continued to be attached to the Bulgarian national
identity. The only difference was that their political aim was autonomy and
not union.
The 'Macedonian Struggle'
After the foundation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870, clashes between
Greeks and Bulgarians began in Macedonia. The main aim of the Greek side was
to prevent the Bulgarian attempt to gain control of the Slav-speaking
populations who lived in the area between a
Kastoria-Ptolemaida-Yannitsa-Zichni (Serres) line to the north and a
Ochrid-Perpeles-Stromnitsa-Meleniko-Nevrokopi line to the south. The Greek
defeat in the war of 1897 allowed the Bulgarians to compel a large part of
the Slav-speaking population in this area to embrace Bulgarian ideals. This
resulted in the Ilinden rising on the feast day of the Prophet Elijah in
1903, a revolt which was crushed by the Turkish army.
The rising led, in turn, to the sacking of many Greek villages and towns,
including Krushevo. The looting and the persecution of Greek populations put
the Greek on to a war footing, and 1904 saw the beginning of the Greek armed
rising known as the Macedonian Struggle, which was to last until 1908.
Throughout the Macedonian Struggle armed bands of volunteers from the free
Greek state (from Crete, Epirus, Thessaly and many parts of the Greek world
which were as yet unredeemed), fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the local
inhabitants, were able to prevent any extension of Bulgarian activities and
to preserve the Greek character of southern and central Macedonia. In many
cases, the Greek units consisted principally of Slav and Vlach-speaking
guerrillas fighting for the Greek cause. This preference for the Greek
national ideal caused the Bulgarians to call them 'Grecomani'-that is,
fanatical Greeks. The descendants of these freedom fighters still live in
the Monastir district.
The armed Macedonian Struggle was broken off in July 1908, because of the
Young Turk Revolt. When the Young Turks overthrew the feudal regime of the
Sultan, they issued a general amnesty and also promised all the
nationalities equal civil rights.
The Macedonian Struggle, which began under the most adverse circumstances
and lasted four whole years, was an unqualified triumph for the Greeks. One
reason for this was that the Struggle attracted Greeks from the free state,
from Crete and from other enslaved areas, who fought side-by-side with the
Macedonians. A second, and equally serious, reason for the success was that
the Greeks were fighting in an area inhabited by a fraternally-related
population with the same ideals and the same dedication to the Ecumenical
Patriarchate and the Greek national idea, regardless of the fact that the
Greek language was not always spoken.
How to Construct a Nationality
The Turkish defeat in the First Balkan War brought the Ottoman period in the
history of Macedonia to an end. Of the geographical area of Macedonia as a
whole, Greece received 51%, Serbia 39% and Bulgaria 10%. The mass exodus of
populations which found themselves living on foreign soil, together with
exchanges and deportations, drastically altered the ethnological composition
of all these parts of Macedonia, and were particularly noticeable in the
Greek section.
The successive defeats of Bulgaria in the First and Second World War led to
the growth in Bulgarian Macedonia of a combative Bulgarian Macedonian
nationalism. The Comintern attempted to exploit the irridentist trends of
this nationalism by adopting the policy of a "unified and independent
Macedonia" to form part of a "Balkan Communist Federation ".
In Yugoslav Macedonia, the policy of conversion to Serbian ideals applied by
Belgrade produced relatively poor results. In order to escape ill-treatment,
part of the population refrained from expressing its pro-Bulgarian
disposition, suppressed its Bulgarian names and made use of the politically
neutral geographical term Macedones. Other sections of the population chose
to incorporate themselves openly into the Serbian national community.
In Greek Macedonia, the remnants of the Slav-speaking population amounted to
100-150,000 after the exchange of populations and were divided into two
groups: one fairly large group, which under Turkish rule had thrown in its
lot with the Greek national identity, and a smaller group which had adopted
the Bulgarian national identity or remain non-aligned.
During the Second World War, the incursion of the Bulgarian army into
Yugoslav Macedonia was welcomed by one section of the population as the
first step towards the liberation and incorporation into the Bulgarian state
for which they longed. A similar phenomenon, though on a much smaller scale,
also occurred in Greek Macedonia.
The Yugoslav partisans under Tito soon became aware that at all costs they
must break the bonds between the population of Yugoslav Macedonia and
Bulgaria. They thus exploited the growing discontent towards the Bulgarian
occupying forces among the population: the Bulgarians reacted with cruelty
and mass reprisals to the attacks of the partisans. Tito's partisans
promised the population that in post-War Yugoslavia the Macedonians- that
is, the Slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia-would have rights equal to those enjoyed
by all the other nationalities, and even equal to those of the Serbs. They
emphasised, however, that the Slavs of Macedonia had no affinities either
with the Serbs or with the Bulgarians: they constituted a separate,
Macedonian, nationality. The idea of distinct Macedonian nationality was
welcomed by a significant proportion of Yugoslav Macedonia. The political
and social conditions were ripe for acceptance of the new theory: Bulgaria
had been defeated, Tito had succeeded in gaining Stalin's consent to
implementation of the new Macedonian policy, and the population was worn out
after half a century of Serbian and Bulgarian efforts to impose on it their
own national identities.
After the success of the Patriotic Front revolution in Bulgaria (in which
the Communist Party of Bulgaria played the leading role) in September 1944,
negotiations began between the Communist Parties of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria
on the future of Macedonia and of the Balkans as a whole once the War was
over. On 2 August 1944 the formation of the "Socialist Republic of
Macedonia" was announced at Prohor Pcinjsci Monastery: it was to form part
of the new federal Yugoslavia.
In September 1944, a Yugoslav delegation headed by General Tempo and Lazar
Kolisevki, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Macedonia, visited
Sofia and extracted from the new Bulgarian leadership a promise that the
inhabitants of Pirin (Bulgarian Macedonia) would be granted autonomy as a
first step towards unification with the federal "Republic of Macedonia " in
Tito's Yugoslavia. In April 1945, Tito imposed a federal system on
Yugoslavia and installed the governments of the federal states of Serbia,
Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Montenegro and Skopje, the last of which was
founded on 30 April 1945.
In the meantime, and while the outcome of the civil war which had broken out
in Greece remained in the balance, the Yugoslavs exerted ever-increasing
pressure on their Bulgarian comrades to have Bulgarian Macedonia ceded to
Yugoslavia. By the end of 1946, the Bulgarians' had made specific
concessions to Yugoslavia over Macedonia. At its 10th Session in August
1946, the Central Committee of the CPB resolved to work "towards cultural
convergence between the inhabitants of Pirin Macedonia and the People's
Republic of Macedonia ". This was followed by a sweeping programme of
cultural exchanges, while at the same time the inhabitants of Pirin were
given the right to chose between the Bulgarian and the "Macedonian"
nationality.
Tempted by the various incentives offered, most of them chose to be
"Macedonians". After a long period of consultation, Tito and Dimitrov, the
leaders of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, met at Bled in Yugoslavia on 2 August
1947 and signed a series of agreements known as the Bled Protocols, by which
Bulgaria agreed, in return for certain minor concessions, to recognise the
inhabitants of Bulgarian Macedonia (Pirin) as "Macedonians" and to prepare
the ground for the incorporation of the Pirin province into the "Socialist
Republic of Macedonia". In return, Bulgaria requested only that the
so-called "Western districts" which the Serbs had occupied at the end of the
First World War be returned.
However, Tito's grandiloquent plans for a "Federation of the South Slavs"
under his leadership fell foul of Stalin. The split came in the summer of
1948, and it made nonsense of all Yugoslavia's plans to make Tito the master
of the Balkans using the 'Macedonian question' as a lever. In these
circumstances, Bulgaria was able to release itself from the concessions it
had made over Macedonia. It rejected the theory of the "Macedonian nation"
and expelled the political instructors dispatched to Bulgaria by Skopje.
Sofia then attempted to exploit the difficulties in which the Yugoslavs
found themselves to raise once more the pre-War slogan of a "united and
independent Macedonia ".
----------------------------------------------------------
SKOPJE'S THEORETICAL SLEIGHT OF HAND.
1. Cyril and Methodius, the "Patrons Saints of Europe"
It is historically proven fact- and one which is accepted by Slav
historians- that the Slavs settled in the Balkans in the 6th century AD and
that their cultural history begins in the 10th century AD. The cultural
history of the Slavs was founded by two Greek monks from Thessaloniki, Cyril
and Methodius, who taught the Slavs the Cyrillic script and initiated them
into Orthodox Christianity. It is a matter of common knowledge that the
Byzantine Greek achievements in science, the arts and letters constitute the
main and central part of the infrastructure of Slav cultural history.
However, some Slav historians argue that these two Greek monks were actually
"Slavs", and Skopje has advanced an even stranger and less accurate theory:
that since Cyril and Methodius were from Thessaloniki, they were "Macedonian
Slavs" and that, consequently, as their descendants (!), they have the
honour of having "enlightened" their fellow-Slavs.
A serious blow to the credibility of these theories was struck by Pope John
Paul II (himself a Slav), who on 31 December 1980 issued an official
apostolic encyclical (Egrigiae Virtutis), to the Catholic Church as a whole
and sent a private letter to the President of the Hellenic Republic
proclaiming Cyril and Methodius, "our brother Greeks, born in Thessaloniki",
patron saints of Europe. The Pope reiterated this proclamation in an address
delivered on 14 February 1981 in the church of San Clemente, Rome.
There is no shortage of Slav politicians and historians who accept that
Cyril and Methodius were Greek: They include the Czech Byzantologist F.
Dvornik, the Serbian historians of early Serbian literature P. Popovich, Dj
Sh. Radovich and Dj. Trijunovich, and the Slovenian Professor B. Grajeneurer
of the University of Ljubljana.
One characteristic example of this can be found in the History of Early Slav
Literature (Belgrade, 1980) by professor V. Bagdanovich, a Serb, who writes:
"Cyril and Methodius were born in Thessaloniki and were of Greek not Slav.
descent".
The Greekness of the Slav-Speakers
Various sets of Statistics saw the light of day during the period of intense
Greek Bulgarian conflict concerning the ethnological composition of the
Macedonian population. The numerical data given fluctuate wildly, since the
sets of statistics were based on different criteria and were designed to
serve the national ambitions of those who compiled them.
When it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, Macedonia was divided
administratively into two vilayets of Thessaloniki and Monastir. The general
inspector of vilayets had his headquarters in Thessaloniki, and in the
run-up to the Balkan Wars this post was held by Hilmi Pasha. His census of
1904 must be a close approximation to the real situation; it gives the
following proportions of Greeks and Bulgarians:
Greeks Bulgarians
------- ----------
Vilayet of Thessaloniki 373,227 207,317
Vilayet of Monastir 261,283 178,412
Total 634,510 385,729
In an interview with the French writer Paillares, Hilmi Pasha had the
following to say about the Slav-speakers: "My view, and the view of my
government, is that these people are Greeks. We classify our subjects
according to the churches and schools they frequent. Unless violent pressure
is applied to them, these people call themselves Greeks" (L' improglio
Macedonien, Paris 1907, pp. 50-51.).
As early as 1871, the Russian author Golonbinski wrote that "these so called
Greeks display towards anything Bulgarian or Slav a more relentless hatred
and more profound contempt than even real Greeks would have done". And in
memorandum which the inhabitants of the Monastir area sent to the French
government in 1903, they expressed the point more eloquently than any
traveller could do :"We speak Greek, Bulgarian and Albanian; that does not
make any of us the less Greek, nor do we permit to call our Greekness into
question".
Further proof of the Greekness of the Slav-speakers-and of the inhabitants
of the area in general - is to be found in the educational organisation of
the Greeks of Macedonia. In the Monastir area there were 284 Greek schools,
of which the town of Monastir alone had a secondary school, a teacher
training school, a girls' school, a boys' school, a seminary, an 'urban
academy' and 14 primary schools. In Krusheno there was a junior secondary
school, a girls' high school, a boy's high school, four primary school and a
nursery school. They were primary school, girls' schools, institutes of
advanced education and nursery schools in Megarovo, Trnavo, Milosista,
Nizopoli, Gopesi, Upper and Lower Belista, Brusnik, Lahci, Bukovo,
Stromnita, Gevgeli and Meleniko. In some cases, the Greeks may have lost
their language as a result of living in close proximity with members of
other races, but they never lost their sense of nationality. Greek education
kept that sense alive even when it was delivered in Slav or Vlach.
The area which was incorporated into Greece after the Balkan Wars included
the greater part of the vilayets of the Thessaloniki and Monastir. Over the
next ten to fifteen years (to 1925), tremendous shifts of population took
place and radically altered the ethnological composition of the area. During
the period of wartime (1912-1919), scores of thousands of Bulgarians left
the area, a trend which continued with the departure of 53,000 Bulgarians by
virtue of the agreement for the voluntary exchange of populations between
Greece and Bulgaria. Only the Slav-speakers of western Macedonia remained:
the majority of this population was Greek in terms of national consciousness
and had chosen of their own free will to stay in Greece.
The League of Nations produced the following statistics for Greek Macedonia
in 1926, when the exchange of populations between Greece had also been
completed:
Greeks 1,341,000 88%
Muslims 2,000 0.1%
Bulgarians 77,000 5.1%
Miscellaneous (mostly Jews) 91,000 6.0%
Total 1,511,000
In 1924, within the framework of the League Nations, Greece and Bulgaria
signed a protocol (known as the "Kalfoff- Politis protocol") by which Greece
recognised as Bulgarian the Slav-speaking population which had remained on
its territory. However, there was such an outcry in Greece (while at the
same time Serbia reacted by abrogating the Greek- Serbian Treaty of Alliance
of 1913) that the Greek Parliament refused to ratify the protocol and the
League of Nations released Greece from the obligations which it had
undertaken.
Alexander's name is Greek. The word "Alexandros" is produced from the prefix
alex(=protector) and the word andros(=man) meaning "he who protects men".
The
prefix "alex" can be found in many Greek words today (alexiptoto=parachute,
alexisfairo=bulletproof - all these words have the meaning of protection).
Philip's name is also Greek. It is produced from the prefix Philo(=friendly
to
something) and the word ippos(=horse) meaning the man who is friendly to
horses.
The prefix "philo" and the word "ippos" are also found in many words of
Greek
origin today (philosophy,philology, hippodrome,hippocampus).
The Slavic propaganda insists that ancient Macedonians did not have Greek
names or (in some cases) that only the royal family had Greek names. Here is
a list of names of ordinary Macedonian people,mentioned in history, which
proves once again the falsity of the Slavic arguments.
Ifestionas - Alexander's closest friend
Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira
Hermias - Philosopher
Anaksarxos - Philosopher
Kalisthenis - Philosopher
Marsias - Writer
Zoilos - Writer
Zeuxis - Painter from Heraclea
Leocharis - Sculptor
Lysippos - Sculptor
Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt
Antipatros - Historian
Aristokritos - Actor
Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's
Philotas - Another friend of Alexander's
Argeos - Rival of king Philippos
Pausanias - The man who killed king Philippos
Kassandros - Army general, founded the city of Thessaloniki
Ptolemeos - Army general
Antigonos - Army general
Selefkos - Army general
Arrianos - Cavalary commander
Nearchos - Navy commander
Neoptolemos - Arrmy officer
Python - Army officer
Hippostratos - Army officer
Kleitos - Army officer
Permenion - Army officer
Attalos - Army officer
Aristoboulos - Army officer
Kleitarxos - Army officer
Polycratis - Soldier
Bolon - Soldier
Koinos - Soldier
Xenokratis
Deukalos
Arrhideos
Charidimos
Parmenion
Antiochos
Krateros
Kalas
Perseas
Meleagros
Arpalos
Eumenis
Lyssimachos
Leonatos
Assandros
Memmon
and yes the above names are greek also
Now.....Let's try to decipher
informacii = information
istorijata - history or in Greek Istoria, from the Greek Histor = Knowing,
also
look up Herodotus, the father of History
Main Entry: his暗o斟y
Etymology: Latin historia, from Greek, inquiry, history, from histOr, istOr
knowing, learned; akin to Greek eidenai to know
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
kulturata - culture, or Koultoura
politikata - politics, from the Greek polis - city, politis - citizen
Main Entry: pol搏暗ics
Etymology: Greek politika, from neuter plural of politikos political
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
Makedonija - Makedonia
"The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the
grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer from
Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since
Macedon,
the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor of
Thessalians, who spoke Greek." (Nicholas Hammond, 1993)
The archaeological discoveries form the Macedonian land are the stongest
proof
that ancient Macedonia was part of the Greek civilization. All the ancient
monuments and inscriptions use the Greek alphabet. Furthermore there is a
large
number of discoveries in Asia in the route of Alexander the Great. All these
monuments, discovered in Pakistan, Kuweit, India and many more countries,
prove
that Alexanders quest was Greek.
but the below makes even greater sense!
President Mr. Kiro Gligorov:
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not
descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February
26,
1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have
no
connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians
no
longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors
came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D)."
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
The following questions arise immediately
Why do you call yourselves Macedonians then?
Why do you use ancient Macedonian symbols if they don't belong to you?
The historic truth is that the Slavs descented into the region not before
the
6th century long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of
Greece. They don't have any historical cultural or linguistic ties with
ancient
Macedonia. There is no historic or archaeological evidence connecting them
with
ancient Macedonia.
Now consider the above REAL INFORMACII
here's what it means:
Main Entry: in搭or搶a暗ion
1 : the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence
2 a (1) : knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) :
INTELLIGENCE, NEWS (3) : FACTS, DATA
A11otrios
text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> ==choro-nik wisecracks...
>
>
> "Agamemnon" wrote...
>
> > What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
> >
> > 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN
> GREEKS
> > since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
>
> ==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
proof that we have learned from out mistakes. That happened 3400 years
ago you know ;l)
> > 3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus
> were
> > colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
>
> ==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
Yeap :)
> > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
>
> ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly? (june, this is not a
> come-on for you. so don't pop up your head or i'll chop it off for you. do
> you get it? comprehende?)
I think it's the slavs that like to adopt names :)
Org
A11otrios
<a47764$haq$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com>, made the following shapes:
>
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a46ss3$fnb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> > ? "Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> > news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122716
> > 19
> >
> >
> > BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
> > First, what an UNBIASED site:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> > Second, have a look at the names of the "authors":-)))))
> >
> > A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> > G?mez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2, V.
> > Zdravkovska2, J. Mart?nez-Laso1
> > or:
> > M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
> >
> > Clearly UNBIASED sources:-))))))))))))))
> > Geeeeet lost you idiot slav extremist!
> > First try not to starve and then come and speak about Macedonia, you
> > BARBARIAN!
>
> Gogu - Barbarian is a synonym for the antique Macedonians, comprende?
No it isn't, it's for turks :)
> So why shouldn't he speak about it, moron?
Just squeal PigPig, you would be more relevant :)
> And if names give indication about being biased - look at your own. It
> couldn't be worse!!
Is that why you do not call yourself goofgoof? So that people can not
understand immediately you are an idiot?
> Doesn't it show your origin as mongrel from south Moldovia?
No it doesn't MongolMongol :)
> Now go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego!
That form of relaxation only works on you apparently.
> Me Ozo drinking & Suflaki eating schmuck...
What is Ozo and Suflaki? And why do you eat schmuck?
Org
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
news:MPG.16d1e2e45...@news.demon.co.uk...
> WolfWolf wrote:
> >
> > "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:a46ss3$fnb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> > > ? "Gjorgji Pulevski" <tm...@soon.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> > > news:2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > > > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > > > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > > > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122716
> > > 19
> > >
> > >
> > > BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
> > > First, what an UNBIASED site:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> > > Second, have a look at the names of the "authors":-)))))
> > >
> > > A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> > > G?mez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2, V.
> > > Zdravkovska2, J. Mart?nez-Laso1
> > > or:
> > > M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
> > >
> > > Clearly UNBIASED sources:-))))))))))))))
> > > Geeeeet lost you idiot slav extremist!
> > > First try not to starve and then come and speak about Macedonia, you
> > > BARBARIAN!
> >
> > Gogu - Barbarian is a synonym for the antique Macedonians, comprende?
> > couldn't be worse!!
>
Yes, it does!
>
> > Now go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego!
> > My Ozo drinking & Suflaki eating schmuck...
>
> What is Ozo and Suflaki?
That's what you have in your brain, where others have grey cells.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <5IA98.3266$dL6.22499522@news-
> text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > ==choro-nik wisecracks...
> >
> >
> > "Agamemnon" wrote...
> >
> > > What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
> > >
> > > 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN
> > GREEKS
> > > since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
> >
> > ==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
>
>
> proof that we have learned from out mistakes. That happened 3400 years
> ago you know ;l)
Hehehehehe ... and who were your teachers on your way towards civilization?
The Ottoman Empire!!
>
> > > 3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus
> > were
> > > colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
> >
> > ==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
>
> Yeap :)
>
> > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> >
> > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly? (june, this is not a
> > come-on for you. so don't pop up your head or i'll chop it off for you.
do
> > you get it? comprehende?)
>
> I think it's the slavs that like to adopt names :)
And it's Greeks that like to give names by force ;-))
WolfWolf
The European
Dorian West
his say. It's good for right minded people to see how utterly ridiculous
these criminal, alcoholics are.
Why don't you Slavs drink some proper stuff instead of the furniture polish
shit you make? Pretty soon you'll be thinking you're Martians and may want
to claim their history, culture and land! Neat stuff though, too bad you
can't handle your liquor.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
"astron" <ast...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
news:3C667AF5...@bigpond.com.au...
WolfWolf
>
> "choro-nik" <chor...@choro.com> wrote in message
> news:5IA98.3266$dL6.22...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly?
>
> Go wash your mouth out with soap.
Go fix your brain - and your genes - with instant glue!
WolfWolf
The European
choro-nik
don't say you were not warned, June.
--
choro-nik
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:pZJ98.1312$dR.292...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
>
Agamemnon
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:MPG.16d1e0d27...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <5IA98.3266$dL6.22499522@news-
> text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > ==choro-nik wisecracks...
> >
> >
> > "Agamemnon" wrote...
> >
> > > What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
> > >
> > > 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN
> > GREEKS
> > > since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
> >
> > ==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
>
>
> proof that we have learned from out mistakes. That happened 3400 years
> ago you know ;l)
There was no genocide. According to Homer the Indigenous Cretans were still
living on Crete at the time of the Trojan war along with Achaeans, Dorians,
Palasgians and Cynarians.
>
> > > 3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus
> > were
> > > colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
> >
> > ==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
>
> Yeap :)
And Phoenicians are descended from Greeks. Phoenix was the Great Great Great
Grandson of Io.
Agamemnon
> chop, chop!!! off with your head!!!
>
> don't say you were not warned, June.
We are NOT amused...
choro-nik
royal "we"?
anyway in the original posting you said...
> 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the Phoenicians
> were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
and i commented....
==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to watch
different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human species
is no different.
and now i add...
incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians preceded
the greeks. not the other way round as you claim. we are, most of us,
cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use pretending
otherwise. what have you to say to that?
--
choro-nik
"Agamemnon" <replace.wi...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a49gnt$cr0$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
Agamemnon
> ma re Aggie, since when have you assumed royal status and started using
the
> royal "we"?
>
> anyway in the original posting you said...
>
>
> > 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the
Phoenicians
> > were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
>
> and i commented....
>
> ==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
> dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to watch
> different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human
species
> is no different.
>
> and now i add...
>
> incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians
preceded
> the greeks. not the other way round as you claim. we are, most of us,
> cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use pretending
> otherwise. what have you to say to that?
You are WRONG. The Phoenicians are descended from Cadmus who was a Greek.
The name of the city of Tyre is from a Greek root and therefore it was
founded by the Greeks.
The fact that no Cypriots were found that resemble Syrian and Jews in this
research indicated that there is no alternative but to assume that the
Phoenicians were Greek since there aught to be enough Phoenician DNA in the
Cypriot population and also the Spartans and Athenians who had Theban
colonists living among them.
Ilinden
Ftcogians
Dorian West wrote:
> In the interests of free speech and democracy, let the block-head FTCOGIANS
choro-nik
alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet which in turn was derived
from an older alphabet written from right to left this older alphabet being
the basis of the modern day hebrew and arabic alphabets.
tyre was ransacked and laid to waste by alexander the great, the macedonian,
who murdered 10,000 of its citizens and sold another 30,000 into slavery.
--
choro-nik
"Agamemnon" <replace.wi...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a49s0v$fh0$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
Agamemnon
> phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the greek
> alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet which in turn was
derived
> from an older alphabet written from right to left this older alphabet
being
> the basis of the modern day hebrew and arabic alphabets.
CRAP. The Phoenician script is so indistinguishable from Archaic Greek
script dating to 1100 BC that is impossible to decide which came first.
Greek Civilisation goes back to 2200 BC long before any remains are found at
Tyre which was founded by the Greeks and has a Greek name.
>
> tyre was ransacked and laid to waste by alexander the great, the
macedonian,
> who murdered 10,000 of its citizens and sold another 30,000 into slavery.
You forget to mention that these 10,000 people who died were armed troops
who resisted Alexander's forces. The Tyrians were given a chance to
surrender but they did not. And don't forget that Cypriot King Pnythagoras
sacrificed most of his fleet in order to take the city. Need I also mention
the sieges by Shalmaneser III and Assurnasirpal ?
Gjorgji Pulevski
> tm...@soon.com (Gjorgji Pulevski) wrote in message news:<2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com>...
> > At the link below you can access extracts of the HLA gene profile
> > reports that are available online on various populations -
> > Macedonians, Turks, Greeks, Bulgarians, Iberians, Basques, Kurds,
> > Cretans, Palestinians and many others too.
> >
>
> .....
> >
> > HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
> >
> > Authors affiliations:
> >
> > A. Arnaiz-Villena1*, K. Dimitroski2*, A. Pacho1, J. Moscoso1, E.
> > Gуmez-Casado1, C. Silvera-Redondo1, P. Varela1, M. Blagoevska2,
> > V. Zdravkovska2, J. Martнnez-Laso1
>
> .....
> >
> > Distributions of HLA class I alleles and haplotypes in Bulgarians -
> > contribution to understanding the origin of the population
> > Authors affiliation:
> >
> > M. Ivanova, P. Spassova, A. Michailova, E. Naumova
> > Abstract: In this study we present for the first time HLA class I
> > allele and haplotype frequencies at DNA level in the Bulgarian
> > population.
> .....
>
> Every study on this topic that comes from a team from the Balkans is
> automatically a suspect!!!
And their version of history sucks too, they talk about "Bulgarian
lands" before there was any Bulgars in the Balkans. :-)))
>For respectable genetic studies on this
> topic see the references quoted by "Gogu". In any case as alleles
> under strong selective pressure the HLA haplotypes are not very
> appropriate for determining ancestral relationships between
> populations.
I don't know what you consider respectable, I guess it could be ones
that would give you ammunition against Macedonians!? :-) These results
are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals and
seem to be well regarded in medical circles. Why don't you visit the
web sites that are hosting the extracts or full reports, read them and
then comment!? Then I could take you more seriously because now you
appear as all hot air and no substance! :-)
> Ivaylo.
GP
Gjorgji Pulevski
[Lots of Tataroman mornonic drivel deleted!]
>Fantastic Discoveries!
Yes indeed!!! :-)
> IT
Read below first and the talk, glupcho!
A short summary....
January 27 2002 Trajko
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fwd from Macedonia Forum: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/64646
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the
Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR,
-DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first
time determined and the results compared to those of other
Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic
distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis
have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1)
Macedonians belong to the ‘‘older’’
Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North
Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks
(Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related
with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the
‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks
are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both
Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as
*0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304
and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and
Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and
finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour
joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when
these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and
might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people
living in pharaonic Egypt. The highly polymorphic HLA system has been
validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations
(and individuals) in many research studies since the first
International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the
subsequent seven International Workshops. HLA gene frequencies
correlate with geographically related populations. The existence or
absence of gene flow among neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed
with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic
distances (1, 2).
[....]
Discussion
Macedonians
Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans
and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with
Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1–3). This supports the theory that
Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan
peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks (10)
about 2000 B.C....The cultural, historical and genetic identity of
Macedonians is established according to our results. However, 19th
century historians focused all the culture in Greece ignoring all the
other Mediterranean cultures present in the area long before the
classical Greek one (25).
Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans
Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close
relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6
and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan
ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa
(Burkina-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely
specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table
5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek
genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at
an uncertain but ancient time.
The origin of the West African Black ethnic groups (Fulani, Mossi and
Rimaibe sampled in Burkina-Fasso) is probably Ethiopian (26, 27) (Fig.
4). The Fulani are semi-nomadic hunters and gatherers and one of the
few people in the area to use cows’ milk and its byproducts to
feed themselves and to trade; their facial parameters show a Caucasian
admixture. The Rimaibe Blacks have been slaves belonging to the Fulani
and have frequently mixed with them (27).
The Nuba people are now widespread all over Sudan, but are descendants
of the ancient Nubians that ruled Egypt between 8th–7th
centuries B.C. (28) and later established their kingdom at Meroe,
North Khartoum. Two kinds of Nubians were described in ancient times:
Reds and Blacks, probably reflecting the degree of Caucasian
admixture. Both the Oromo and Amharic peoples live in the Ethiopian
mountains (27). They obviously have in common a genetic background
with the west-African groups mentioned above. Linguistic, social,
traditional and historical evidence supports an east-to-west migration
of peoples through the Sahel (southern Sahara strip), although this is
still debated (26, 27).
Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from
southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part
of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have
occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least (Figs 1 and
2). The reason why this admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but
may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire which
hindered foreigners establishment (10). Also, the time when admixture
occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Negroid Egyptian
dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural
catastrophes (i.e.: dryness).
Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came
from Egypt (4, 25).
Fig. 4. Map showing the location of the populations tested in the
present work.
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=1012096107
for fair use only.
Trajko
--------------------
GENETIKA: MAKEDONCITE SO NAJSTARI GENI NA BALKANOT
January 28 2002 Trajko
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENETIKA
D-r Ko~o Dimitrovski, nau~en sorabotnik pri Katedrata za imunologija
za interesnite medicinski soznanija vo Madrid
MAKEDONCITE SO NAJSTARI GENI NA BALKANOT
Pi{uva: Mileva LAZOVA
Spored genetskite ispituvawa HLA genite se potvrda za makedonskata
avtohtonost na Balkanot.
Nie, Makedoncite, sme mnogu sli~ni so populacijata od Krit, Sicilija,
[panija, Francija, a sme porazli~ni od sosedniot gr~ki narod.
Nau~niot sorabotnik pri Katedrata za imunologija, pri Medicinskiot
fakultet vo Skopje, d-r Ko~o Dimitrovski i svetski poznatiot prof. d-r
Antonio Arnaiz-Vellena od [panija, vo bolnicata "12 Oktovmri" vo
Madrid realiziraa ispituvawe na HLA genite kaj Makedoncite pred tri
godini. Iako ova ispituvawe bilo naso~eno za medicinska cel, sepak
otkrieni se i nekolku interesni fakti. Analizata na krvta, odnosno na
HLA genite kaj Makedoncite potvrdi deka makedonskata populacija e
mnogu sli~na so mediteranskite narodi.
(...)
Interesen e i faktot deka Makedoncite se prili~no razli~ni od Grcite
koi za razlika od nas, poteknuvaat duri od sub-Saharskiot region.
STRU^NI ISPITUVAWA
Na Krit bev pokanet kako imunolog od Makedonija da referiram za
transplantaciite vo na{ata dr`ava, veli d-r Dimitrovski. Na taa sredba
ima{e stru~ni lica od celiot Balkan i od mediteranskite zemji, a be{e
prisuten i prof. d-r Antonio Arnaiz-Vellena od [panija koj e eden od
najpoznatite stru~naci za genetski i jazi~ni ispituvawa vo svetot. Toj
ima napraveno genetski ispituvawa na najgolem broj od mediteranski
narodi i na taa sredba koja be{e odr`ana pred tri godini, toj mi
predlo`i da realizirame genetsko istra`uvawe i na makedonskata
populacija. Vo toa vreme nie nemavme takvi molekularni tehniki za da
napravime edno vakvo genetsko ispituvawe. Sobrav primeroci na krv od
okolu 200 Makedonci i okolu 100 Albanci od Makedonija. Krvta ja
odnesov vo [panija, poto~no vo bolnicata "12 Oktomvri" vo Madrid pri
{to se izvr{i molekularna HLA tipizacija na na{ite primeroci. Potoa
rezultatite bea statisti~ki obraboteni, analizirani i prika`ani.
Rezultatite bile objaveni vo danskoto spisanie "Tkivni antigeni" koe
izleguva na angliski jazik i e najzna~ajno spisanie za ovaa
problematika.
Pozitivno be{e {to edna nezavisna laboratorija gi napravi tie
ispituvawa, zatoa {to dokolku se napravea ispituvawata kaj nas, }e
ima{e komentari dali e toa objektivno napraveno i analizirano, dodava
d-r Dimitrovski. Od dobienite soznanija nie, Makedoncite, sme mnogu
sli~ni so populacijata od Krit. Na{eto genetsko poteklo e mnogu blisko
so narodite od Mediteranot, pred s# so narodite od Korzika, Sicilija,
Sardinija, Francija, [panija, Italija.
Globalen pregled pome|u isto~en i zapaden Mediteran
Vo Srbija i Albanija s# u{te ne e napraveno vakvo ispituvawe, me|utoa
vo Hrvatska, Slovenija, Bugarija i Grcija ima vakvi rezultati.
Makedonija poslednite 80-tina godini be{e vo ramkite na biv{a
Jugoslavija. Nacionalnite dr`avi na Balkanot se formirale samo pred
150-tina godini. Pred toa, tie ne postoele i site bile samo `iteli na
Balkanot. Pri toa doa|ale Rimjanite, Vizantijcite, Slovenite, Turcite
i site se spojuvale na eden krstopat, a toj krstopat bila tokmu
Makedonija. Zaradi tie influksi na geni ve}e se razlikuvame od
Slovencite, Hrvatite, a sme poblisku do sosednite narodi. Postojat
somnevawa deka Slovenite do{le od zad Karpatite. Me|utoa, ako e toa
to~no, Slovenite vo Makedonija do{le najdaleku i se vgnezdile najdolu
od drugite Sloveni i pritoa se sme{ale so narodi sosema razli~ni od
niv. Od druga strana, Hrvatite na primer gi imale za sosedi
Slovencite, Srbite, koi se slavjanski narodi i mnogu sli~ni na niv i
kolku i da se me{aat, mala }e bide razlikata.
Analizite od krvta na Albancite od Makedonija s# u{te ne se objaveni
taka {to ne bi sakal da gi komentiram.
HLA FREKVENCIJA
Na Krit isto taka e napraveno ispituvawe na kritskata populacija od
strana na Prof. Arnaiz-Villena. Spored rezultatite od tie ispituvawa
dojdeno e do soznanie deka lu|eto {to `iveat na Krit se mnogu sli~ni
so narodite od Sicilija, Sardinija, Korzika, od Mediteranskite
ostrovi, a pomalku se sli~ni so Grcite od kontinentot (od Atika) ili
od Kipar.
Grcite za razlika od site ovie mediteranski narodi drasti~no se
razlikuvaat po genetskata frekvencija. Spored genetskite ispituvawa,
se smeta deka tie poteknuvaat od nekoi predeli od pod Sahara, poto~no
sub-Saharski region. Tie imaat migrirano pokraj mediteranskiot isto~en
breg i go naselile ovoj region kade {to se sega, se soznanijata na
prof. Arnaiz-Villena.
Dendrogramot ja poka`uva relacijata pome|u makedonskata i drugite
populacii
Nepobiten fakt e deka mo`e da se smeni ime, mo`e da se smeni jazik,
me|utoa genite ne mo`e da se smenat. Genite se prenesuvaat od
generacija na generacija, se menuvaat samo edinkite koi gi nosat tie
genite i dokolku nema golemi demografski promeni so odliv i priliv na
narod (mehani~ki priliv), toga{ genite postojano si opstojuvaat na
edna teritorija i imaat odredena postojana frekvencija.
Nie vsu{nost toa go ispitavme, frekvencijata na HLA genite kaj
makedonskata populacija, veli d-r Dimitrovski. Pokraj toa {to sekoj
eden narod se prepoznava po svoite etni~ki, kulturni, jazi~ni
karakteristiki, se prepoznava i po odredena frekvencija na genite. HLA
genite se prenesuvaat so ra|awe na deca, a najgolem procent od
brakovite vo osnova se sklu~uvaat vrz osnova na ista etni~ka
pripadnost, ista religija, govorewe ist jazik. Pozdravi od genetski
aspekt se onie lu|e kade {to ima pogolemo me{awe na geni. Neme{aweto
na genite vo edna zatvorena populacija genetski ne e zdravo. Takvi
primeri ima kaj Evreite kade {to ne se me{aat genite od edna
populacija, tuku postoi me{awe na genite od edna familija, taka {to
edni isti geni postojano kru`at, a toa e lo{o. Treba da ima {to
pogolemo me{awe na genite za da mo`e organizmot da ima sposobnost {to
e mo`no pove}e da se odbrani od razli~ni bolesti. Vsu{nost, ovie geni
se zadol`eni za imunata odbrana na organizmot.
Celta na ova ispituvawe, gledano od medicinski aspekt, e idejata da se
ispita frekvencijata na genite kaj sekoj narod i voedno da se napravi
lista na ~ekawe za transplantacija. Vo Atina minatata godina me
pokanija me|u pretsedava~ite na "Tretiot imunolo{ki kongres na
Balkanot" zatoa {to imaat `elba da napravime edna balkanska lista na
~ekawe za transplantacija. Onie koi{to ~ekaat za transplantacija na
eden organ, so vakva lista }e imaat pogolema i pobrza mo`nost za
pronao|awe na pogoden daritel so geni koi se sli~ni na nivnite za da
mo`e organizmot pouspe{no da go prifati transplanatot.
Pri mojata poseta vo Atina ima{e odredeni reakcii od strana na moite
kolegi i prijateli Grci vo vrska so objaveniot trud. Reakcijata be{e
prosledena so mala doza na kritika, no sepak toa ne be{e presudno za
da ja naru{ime na{ata sorabotka. Me prifatija srde~no i starite
prijatelski vrski prodol`ija vo nasoka na ponatamo{na sorabotka i
sozdavawe na dolgo sakanata balkanska lista na ~ekawe za
transplantacija.
Pokraj ispituvawata {to gi napravivme vo Madrid, tamo{nite lu|e gi
informirav za Makedonija, za na{eto poteklo, gi odnesov site
kompakt-diskovi koi bea izdadeni, a na koi e prika`ana makedonskata
istorija i kultura. Odnesov i knigi i re~nici, bidej}i tie pravat i
lingvisti~ki studii. Tie go ispituvat potekloto na jazikot {to e mnogu
biten faktor zatoa {to se provlekuva od generacii na generacii i e
potvrda za potekloto na samiot narod koj go govori toj jazik.
Sourced from Makedonsko Sonce
http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevi/2002/sonce394/Tekst12.htm
For fair use only.
You can read at the link below formatted text (with highlights):
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=1012212829
Also forwarded from Macedonia Forum:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/64646
For fair use only.
June R Harton
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
news:a489pp$6pk$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
>Junebugger?
Get your obcenities out of here Turk.
from: Spirit Of Truth
June R Harton
West Bulgarian as evidence by your blood.
> These results
> are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals and
> seem to be well regarded in medical circles.
Frankly, as noted they werte rubbish.
. Why don't you visit the
> web sites that are hosting the extracts or full reports, read them and
> then comment!? Then I could take you more seriously because now you
> appear as all hot air and no substance! :-)
My dear Bulgarian, that has been done and the conmplete work
was garbage.
How would you like to try to dispute me, Troll?
June R Harton
>Junebugger
Get your obscenities out of here, Turk.
from: Spirit Of Truth
A11otrios
binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, made the following shapes:
> ma re Aggie, since when have you assumed royal status and started using the
> royal "we"?
>
> anyway in the original posting you said...
>
>
> > 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the Phoenicians
> > were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
>
> and i commented....
>
> ==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
> dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to watch
> different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human species
> is no different.
You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
>
> and now i add...
>
> incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians preceded
> the greeks.
In what? They lived at the same time. Phoenicians just reached the zenith
of their civilization long before the greeks did.
> not the other way round as you claim.
he doesn't claim that. Most anthropologists do.
> we are, most of us,
> cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use pretending
> otherwise. what have you to say to that?
What do you mean "WE".
You are a mongol man :) We are greeks :) We are pedigree, you are not ;)
Org
A11otrios
text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the greek
> alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet
There was no phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were still using ideograms.
> which in turn was derived
> from an older alphabet written from right to left this older alphabet being
> the basis of the modern day hebrew and arabic alphabets.
Nope :)
> tyre was ransacked and laid to waste by alexander the great, the macedonian,
> who murdered 10,000 of its citizens and sold another 30,000 into slavery.
Yeap. Irrelevant though :) Alexander did the same to Thebes too :)
Org
A11otrios
>
> "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> news:MPG.16d1e0d27...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <5IA98.3266$dL6.22499522@news-
> > text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > > ==choro-nik wisecracks...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Agamemnon" wrote...
> > >
> > > > What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
> > > >
> > > > 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are DORIAN
> > > GREEKS
> > > > since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
> > >
> > > ==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
> >
> >
> > proof that we have learned from out mistakes. That happened 3400 years
> > ago you know ;l)
>
> Hehehehehe ... and who were your teachers on your way towards civilization?
> The Ottoman Empire!!
*falls*
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AHH AH AH HAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAH AH AH H AH AH
HA HA HH AH AAAAAAAAAAAA HAH H AH AHAAAAAAAAA HAH AH AHH AH AH HAH A HH
AAAAAAAAH AH AH H AAAAAAAAAAAH H AH HAHAH H AHA H A H
aaaaaaaahhhh god... you are killing me pigpig oh boy..,
> > > > 3) Achaean DNA is the same as Cypriot DNA since both Greece and Cyprus
> > > were
> > > > colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
> > >
> > > ==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
> >
> > Yeap :)
> >
> > > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > >
> > > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly? (june, this is not a
> > > come-on for you. so don't pop up your head or i'll chop it off for you.
> do
> > > you get it? comprehende?)
> >
> > I think it's the slavs that like to adopt names :)
>
> And it's Greeks that like to give names by force ;-))
Nope :) We haven't named anybody piglet :)
On the other hand I remember some turks saying that Homer was turkish!
*points at pigpig*
*falls*
boy what a laugh...
god bless you pigpig :)
Org
A11otrios
<snip stuff that MongolMongol fabricated>
> That's what you have in your brain, where others have grey cells.
Grey cells? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AH AHHAHAAAAAAAAH AH AH H AH AH
AH HAH AH HA HAH H A
oh boy :) At least they are not WHITE cells now hah a hah ha h ah ha hhah
Little idiot :) Cells have no colour. Neurons are transparent.
But I am being fussy know. I mean how can you know that? You have none.
*smirk*
Org
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
> Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <A2_98.98$PL1.5458@news-
> binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, made the following shapes:
> > ma re Aggie, since when have you assumed royal status and started using
the
> > royal "we"?
> >
> > anyway in the original posting you said...
> >
> >
> > > 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the
Phoenicians
> > > were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
> >
> > and i commented....
> >
> > ==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
> > dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to
watch
> > different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human
species
> > is no different.
>
> You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
Why are you asking? Are you feeling such a vehement need to join them?
>
> >
> > and now i add...
> >
> > incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians
preceded
> > the greeks.
>
> In what? They lived at the same time. Phoenicians just reached the zenith
> of their civilization long before the greeks did.
But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how can we
expect a zenith?
>
> > not the other way round as you claim.
>
> he claims that, but most anthropologists don't.
>
> > we are, most of us,
> > cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use pretending
> > otherwise. what have you to say to that?
>
> What do you mean "WE".
We means we, comprende?
>
> I am a mongrel man :) I am greek :) You are not ;)
We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> WolfWolf wrote:
> >
> > "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> > news:MPG.16d1e0d27...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > > Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <5IA98.3266$dL6.22499522@news-
> > > text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > > > ==choro-nik wisecracks...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Agamemnon" wrote...
> > > >
> > > > > What are you alleging. The article bellow shows
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Macedonians have the same DNA as Cretans, meaning they are
DORIAN
> > > > GREEKS
> > > > > since in 1400 BC the Dorians annihilated the "Minoans" on Crete.
> > > >
> > > > ==proof of greek origins of genocide?!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > proof that we have learned from out mistakes. That happened 3400 years
> > > ago you know ;l)
> >
> > Hehehehehe ... and who were your teachers on your way towards
civilization?
> > The Ottoman Empire!!
> >
Cyprus
> > > > were
> > > > > colonised by the Phoenicians and Palasgians.
> > > >
> > > > ==so cypriots are in fact descendents of phoenicians!!!
> > >
> > > Yeap :)
> > >
> > > > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > > >
> > > > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly? (june, this is
not a
> > > > come-on for you. so don't pop up your head or i'll chop it off for
you.
> > do
> > > > you get it? comprehende?)
> > >
> > > I think it's the slavs that like to adopt names :)
> >
> > And it's Greeks that like to give names by force ;-))
>
> Nope :) We haven't named anybody piglet :)
You are doing it permanently. Aren't you gleek?!?
>
> On the other hand I remember some turks saying that Homer was turkish!
Nope! Wash your ears and then talk, glupcho!
Turks know what Vergil said:
"Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <kX0a8.4885$ch3.33684539@news-
> text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the greek
> > alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet
>
> There was no phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were still using ideograms.
Allotrios boy, what's your problem now? Eating Disorders, Panic Disorder,
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD),
Sexual Dysfunction, Addictive Disorders, Phobias, Advanced Issues in
Spiritual Warfare, Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), or Satanic Ritual
Abuse (SRA)?
WolfWolf
The European
Voyager
of yours.
Are you really believe that even a single reasonable person can
ever believe your nonsense ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Gjorgji Pulevski <tm...@soon.com>
Newsgroups:
alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkis
h,soc.culture.europe
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the
Greeks
A11otrios
I wonder, how the hell did you come by that conclusion, by my statement
of the fact, that Phoenicians were using ideograms instead of an
alphabet.
Boy you are one fucked up individual you are PigPig :)
> WolfWolf
> The European
Same about this european delirium you have.
heee hee hee
Org
A11otrios
>
> "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
> news:MPG.16d30f402...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <A2_98.98$PL1.5458@news-
> > binary.blueyonder.co.uk>, made the following shapes:
> > > ma re Aggie, since when have you assumed royal status and started using
> the
> > > royal "we"?
> > >
> > > anyway in the original posting you said...
> > >
> > >
> > > > 4) Today's Jews have no relation to the Phoenicians since the
> Phoenicians
> > > > were decedents of Io, but are an offshoot of the Arabs.
> > >
> > > and i commented....
> > >
> > > ==i am sure they are all somehow interconnected like different breeds of
> > > dogs. do not get me wrong. i DO love dogs and find it fascinating to
> watch
> > > different breeds and mongrels and reflect on the fact that the human
> species
> > > is no different.
> >
> > You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
>
> Why are you asking?
I was not asking. I was stating :) You see, there is no question mark in
my sentence you illiterate barbarian. So the rest is irrelevant.
> > > incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians
> preceded
> > > the greeks.
> >
> > In what? They lived at the same time. Phoenicians just reached the zenith
> > of their civilization long before the greeks did.
>
> But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how can we
> expect a zenith?
Boy, you need to take it easy on these drugs you get.
> > > not the other way round as you claim.
> >
> > he claims that, but most anthropologists don't.
> >
> > > we are, most of us,
> > > cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use pretending
> > > otherwise. what have you to say to that?
> >
> > What do you mean "WE".
>
> We means we, comprende?
You and your boyfriend write choro-nik's posts?
> > You are a mongol man :) We are greeks :) We are pedigree, you are not ;)
>
> We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
With pleasure :)
In the alphabet B is after A.
> WolfWolf
> The European
Since when are Mongols considered Europeans?
Org
A11otrios
Gleek? hhehehehehhe Oh boy! It seems PigPig cannot pronounce his "R".
I'll speak to him in his language from now on :)
You aLe a little piglet aLen't you PigPig :)
> > On the other hand I remember some turks saying that Homer was turkish!
>
> Nope! Wash your ears and then talk, glupcho!
Heeeeh eeeeeh eehe hheh eh
So at last you agree that Homer was not a Turk. At last!
> Turks know what Vergil said:
> "Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
Vergil did not say that you fool :) That was said by Cassandra and
Laokontas when the Trojans were bringing the Trojan Horse in their
city. Of course the Trojans were not as smart as the Greeks and they lost
:)
Also, learn english and write it in english.
"Beware the Greeks Bearing Gifts" :)
It shows how cunning my ancestors were. Your ancestors were jumping from
one tree to the other at the time this was happening :)
>
> WolfWolf
> The European
Be a man and do not shame your ancestors. You are not European, you are a
Mongol.
Org
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> >
> > Nope! Wash your ears and then talk, glupcho!
>
> Heeeeh eeeeeh eehe hheh eh
>
> So at last you agree that Homer was not a Turk. At last!
When did I say something different?
Turkey existed later, Homer was ANCIENT Greek - of course without any
relation with you mongrel.
>
> > Turks know what Vergil said:
> > "Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
>
> Vergil did not say that
It is written in Vergil's Aeneis, so these are Vergil's words, dimwit!
> you fool :) That was said by Cassandra and
> Laokontas when the Trojans were bringing the Trojan Horse in their
> city. Of course the Trojans were not as smart as the Greeks and they lost
> :)
Irrelevant!
It was Schliemann's Turkish girlfriend who showed him where to excavate.
Now Troja is Turkish, you know?
>
> Also, learn english and write it in english.
>
> "Beware the Greeks Bearing Gifts" :)
You must learn English - and to capitalize correctly.
And why shouldn't I quote Vergil in his own language? Did he write English,
dumbass?
>
> It shows how cunning my ancestors were. Your ancestors were jumping from
> one tree to the other at the time this was happening :)
Ancient Greek were of sub-Saharan origin, with links to Ethiopians. Face it,
and like it!
And you mongrel worm are still creeping on the earth.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
Not stating - supposing, which includes uncertainty. Hence the question. Got
it, idiot?
>
> > > > incidentally i just looked it up and found out that the phoenicians
> > preceded
> > > > the greeks.
> > >
> > > In what? They lived at the same time. Phoenicians just reached the
zenith
> > > of their civilization long before the greeks did.
> >
> > But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how can
we
> > expect a zenith?
>
> Boy, you need to take it easy on these drugs you get.
Why must you always play around with drugs? No drug can lift your level of
civilization.
>
> > > > not the other way round as you claim.
> > >
> > > he claims that, but most anthropologists don't.
> > >
> > > > we are, most of us,
> > > > cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use
pretending
> > > > otherwise. what have you to say to that?
> > >
> > > What do you mean "WE".
> >
> > We means we, comprende?
> >
> > > I am a mongrel man :) I am greek :) You are not ;)
>
> > We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
>
> With pleasure :)
>
> In the alphabet A is after B.
Your level of idiocy is already known. So why do you need to expose it again
and again?
Tell us that Greece respects human rights and her neighbours - that would be
REALLY new.
WolfWolf
The European
A11otrios
>
> "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> news:MPG.16d34698...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > WolfWolf wrote:
> > >
> > > > You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
> > >
> > > Why are you asking?
> >
> > I was not asking. I was stating :) You see, there is no question mark in
> > my sentence you illiterate barbarian. So the rest is irrelevant.
>
> Not stating - supposing, which includes uncertainty. Hence the question. Got
> it, idiot?
I was not supposing I was stating :) Your turkish voodoo medicine man
does not read my mind well it seems :) You don't give him as much kebabs
as you should.
> > > But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how can
> > > we expect a zenith?
> >
> > Boy, you need to take it easy on these drugs you get.
>
> Why must you always play around with drugs? No drug can lift your level of
> civilization.
As it is proven by you huh? hehehehehe
> > > > > not the other way round as you claim.
> > > >
> > > > he claims that, but most anthropologists don't.
> > > >
> > > > > we are, most of us,
> > > > > cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use
> pretending
> > > > > otherwise. what have you to say to that?
> > > >
> > > > What do you mean "WE".
> > >
> > > We means we, comprende?
> > >
> > You and your boyfriend write choro-nik's posts?
> >
> > > > You are a mongol man :) We are greeks :) We are pedigree, you are not ;)
> >
> > > We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
> >
> > With pleasure :)
> >
> > In the alphabet B is after A.
>
> Your level of idiocy is already known. So why do you need to expose it again
> and again?
So you think that A is after B huh? Oh boy. Poor pigpig. I wonder what
your boyfriend thinks of you :)
> Tell us that Greece respects human rights and her neighbours - that would be
> REALLY new.
No! We better stick with simple stuff. Okay today I'll show you
multiplication:
2 x 1 = 2
2 x 2 = 4
2 x 3 = 6
You complete the rest up to 5. If you feel very tired stop at 4 okay?
> WolfWolf
> The European
Heeee heh e he he hhehe heh e
Org
ivaylo p. ivanov
So, how should they call them - "the lands later to become Bulgarian"?
How do you call the Macedonian lands before the arrival of the
Macedonians?
>
> >For respectable genetic studies on this
> > topic see the references quoted by "Gogu". In any case as alleles
> > under strong selective pressure the HLA haplotypes are not very
> > appropriate for determining ancestral relationships between
> > populations.
>
> I don't know what you consider respectable, I guess it could be ones
> that would give you ammunition against Macedonians!? :-) These results
> are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals and
> seem to be well regarded in medical circles.
I am very sorry to inform you but "Tissue Antigens" is most definately
NOT a "very respectable journal" when it comes to studies on human
evolution! The journals "Science" and "PNAS" ARE! None of the labs
mentioned by you are known to me. All of the labs mentioned by "Gogu"
are.
> Why don't you visit the
> web sites that are hosting the extracts or full reports, read them and
> then comment!? Then I could take you more seriously because now you
> appear as all hot air and no substance! :-)
Several years ago I did a research for myself (by going to the library
not some webpages) and found that all (or almost all) papers on the
subject that came from Balkan countries were POLITICALLY MOTIVATED. If
I have time I will look at yours but I doubt I will find something
different. The papers quoted by "Gogu" come from respected neutral
teams that have nothing to gain from supporting the various Balkan
sides.
Ivaylo.
>
> > Ivaylo.
>
>
> GP
A11otrios
ooops! Pigpig swallowed my cum and choked and couldn't say anything in
that post!
Better save him!
*smacks PigPig's back*
nObPigPig: "SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK"
Thank god I saved him. Let's hope he lives :)
heeeeh eheh e hheh e
Org
A11otrios
> > I'll speak to him in his language from now on :)
> >
> > You aLe a little piglet aLen't you PigPig :)
> >
> > >
> > > Nope! Wash your ears and then talk, glupcho!
> >
> > Heeeeh eeeeeh eehe hheh eh
> >
> > So at last you agree that Homer was not a Turk. At last!
>
> When did I say something different?
Well you always lie :) That should be expected :)
> Turkey existed later,
Later? Why don't you say the truth? Where were the turks then pigpig?
> Homer was ANCIENT Greek - of course without any
> relation with you mongrel.
Well if it pleases is you :)
> > > Turks know what Vergil said:
> > > "Quidquid id est, timeo Danaos et dona ferentes."
> >
> > Vergil did not say that
> It is written in Vergil's Aeneis, so these are Vergil's words, dimwit!
"Turks know what Vergil said:"
That's what you said. Let me make it clearer "Vergil said:" means VERGIL
SAID. Not Vergil copied Homer. Idiot. You lied once again...
> > you fool :) That was said by Cassandra and
> > Laokontas when the Trojans were bringing the Trojan Horse in their
> > city. Of course the Trojans were not as smart as the Greeks and they lost
> > :)
>
> Irrelevant!
Indeed! So you should never mention Vergil.
<snip irrelevant stuff>
> > Also, learn english and write it in english.
> >
> > "Beware the Greeks Bearing Gifts" :)
>
> You must learn English - and to capitalize correctly.
Capitalizing the first letter of verbs and nouns is a way to stress
something. Of course you wouldn't know that. Idiot :)
> And why shouldn't I quote Vergil in his own language? Did he write English,
> dumbass?
He didn't write it you IDIOT. He copied it from HOMER. You are a
Mongoloidiotic PigPig! :)
> > It shows how cunning my ancestors were. Your ancestors were jumping from
> > one tree to the other at the time this was happening :)
>
> Ancient Greek were of sub-Saharan origin, with links to Ethiopians. Face it,
> and like it!
??? Really? Maybe that's why they found all that stuff! Maybe my
ancestors were smarter than anybody else at the time for that reason. I
wouldn't care even if they came from under the sea :)
On the other hand. You refuse to acknowledge about your ancestors. You
will go to hell for that! You should be proud about them Mongol!
> And you mongrel worm are still creeping on the earth.
Yeah :) I am your worst nightmare.
Well not really :) Niarlathotep maybe :)
>
> WolfWolf
> The European
eeeeeeeeeh eheheheh eh eh hehehhe
Org
A11otrios
<338e7fad.0202...@posting.google.com>, made the following
shapes:> ...
> > A different kind of statistical analysis using 61 alleles (Barbujani & Sokal
> > 1991b) provided rather contradictory results, such as the 'lack of genetic
> > differentiation of Sicily' (ibid: 408), though they concurred that borders
> > showing 'sharp genetic change' were discernible around Magna Graecia and
> > Etruria. However they were concentrating on whether modern linguistic
> > differences showed any relation to modern genetic differentiation. They
> > concluded that in Italy 'there are cases in which linguistic differentiation
> > appears to maintain, and not only to be correlated with, genetic
> > differentiation' (ibid: 409).
>
> I am very surprised that a Greek would like to cite this particular
> study since it showed that there is a clear genetic disequilibrium
> between the Greeks of Northern (Macedonia/Thrace) and Southern Greece
> (something I've discussed at length here before).
Where does it state that?
Org
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> WolfWolf wrote:
> >
> > "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> > news:MPG.16d34698...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > > WolfWolf wrote:
> > > >
>
> > > > > You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
> > > >
> > > > Why are you asking?
> > >
> > > I was not asking. I was stating :) You see, there is no question mark
in
> > > my sentence you illiterate barbarian. So the rest is irrelevant.
> >
> > Not stating - supposing, which includes uncertainty. Hence the question.
Got
> > it, idiot?
>
> I was not supposing I was stating :)
You were supposing. As a worm you cannot distinguish both concepts. So we
must teach you.
> > > > But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how
can
> > > > we expect a zenith?
> > >
> > > Boy, you need to take it easy on these drugs you get.
> >
> > Why must you always play around with drugs? No drug can lift your level
of
> > civilization.
>
> As it is proven by you huh? hehehehehe
Don't you give evidence by yourself? Yes, you do!
>
> > > > > > not the other way round as you claim.
> > > > >
> > > > > he claims that, but most anthropologists don't.
> > > > >
> > > > > > we are, most of us,
> > > > > > cross-bred mongrels whether we like it or not. it is no use
> > pretending
> > > > > > otherwise. what have you to say to that?
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you mean "WE".
> > > >
> > > > We means we, comprende?
> > > >
> > > You and your boyfriend write choro-nik's posts?
> > >
> > > > > I am a mongrel man :) I am greek :) You are not ;)
> > >
> > > > We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
> > >
> > > With pleasure :)
> > >
> > > In the alphabet A is after B.
> >
> > Your level of idiocy is already known. So why do you need to expose it
again
> > and again?
>
> So you don't believe that A is after B huh?
If you say so ...
>
> > Tell us that Greece respects human rights and her neighbours - that
would be
> > REALLY new.
>
> No! We better stick with simple stuff.
Angry, ashamed - and weaseling out, aren't we?
Well, perhaps it is understandable. I would be ashamed too if my country was
so deficient.
PM condemns 'phenomena of misinformation' in newscasts
08/02/2002 22:03:11
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
...
"We have phenomena of misinformation. The people, however, have the ability
to see the truth," he said.
http://www.ana.gr/cgi-bin/hwebwww.exe?-A=729327&-V=www_ape&-P&-w=&-Dviewrece
n.html
But look - Simitis said 'the people'. He didn't say 'Allotrios the worm'.
You have a loooooong way ahead - in evolution.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:tP6a8.6478$ew1.104...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
> news:a48a7e$703$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
> >Junebugger
>
>
>
No!
>
>
> from: Ghost of Lies
>
> (using Junebugger's mug to communicate to you)!
>
>
>
>
ivaylo p. ivanov
....
> Why don't you visit the web sites that are hosting the extracts or full
> reports, read them and then comment!?
Well, I decided to browse through the paper done in collaboration with
the team from Skopje. According to Fig.2 Moroccan Jews are much closer
to Macedonians (the Skopje variety) than they are to either other Jews
or even to non-Jewish Moroccans. Wow! Need I say more? I hope they
don't try to present this data to a conference on Human Evolution
because the audience might die of laughter!
Ivaylo.
A11otrios
>
> "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> news:MPG.16d366762...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > WolfWolf wrote:
> > >
> > > "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.16d34698...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > > > WolfWolf wrote:
> > > > >
> >
> > > > > > You must have a lot of goats to need all those dogs ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > Why are you asking?
> > > >
> > > > I was not asking. I was stating :) You see, there is no question mark
> in
> > > > my sentence you illiterate barbarian. So the rest is irrelevant.
> > >
> > > Not stating - supposing, which includes uncertainty. Hence the question.
> Got
> > > it, idiot?
> >
> > I was not supposing I was stating :)
>
> You were supposing.
Nope. Learn to read :) I know what I do, unlike you it seems :) Also, the
brainwash they applied to you doesn't work in people like me. Actually it
doesn't work in any other people than mongoloids of low intelligence hehe
heh eheh he
> As a worm you cannot distinguish both concepts. So we must teach you.
Oh MongolMongol's boyfriend. You should really tell me your name :) Are
you a Mongol too?
> > > > > But Allotrios - the C-Graph of Greeks developing as a flat line, how
> can
> > > > > we expect a zenith?
> > > >
> > > > Boy, you need to take it easy on these drugs you get.
> > >
> > > Why must you always play around with drugs? No drug can lift your level
> > > of civilization.
> >
> > As it is proven by you huh? hehehehehe
>
> Don't you give evidence by yourself? Yes, you do!
Not in this case. Especially since I never mentioned me :)
> > > > > > You are a mongol man :) We are greeks :) We are pedigree, you are not ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > We knew that. Tell us something we don't yet know :-))
> > > >
> > > > With pleasure :)
> > > >
> > > > In the alphabet B is after A.
> > >
> > > Your level of idiocy is already known. So why do you need to expose it
> > > again and again?
> >
> > So you don't believe that B is after A huh?
>
> If you say so ...
Good! You should never question me. My IQ is like infinite times more
than yours :)
Keep fabricating though :) hehe heh he h eh e hh e
It is amusing :)
> > > Tell us that Greece respects human rights and her neighbours - that
> would be
> > > REALLY new.
> >
> > No! We better stick with simple stuff.
>
> Angry, ashamed - and weaseling out, aren't we?
Why did you snip my lesson! Was it very hard for your mongoloid brain
PigPig's boyfriend? You must be like shit to fuck a turk. Either that, or
a turk yourself :))
> Well, perhaps it is understandable. I would be ashamed too if my country was
> so deficient.
Aha! So you are not a turk!
>
> PM condemns 'phenomena of misinformation' in newscasts
> 08/02/2002 22:03:11
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> ...
> "We have phenomena of misinformation. The people, however, have the ability
> to see the truth," he said.
> http://www.ana.gr/cgi-bin/hwebwww.exe?-A=729327&-V=www_ape&-P&-w=&-Dviewrece
> n.html
>
> But look - Simitis said 'the people'. He didn't say 'Allotrios the worm'.
Ah! He didn't say that cause I don't fabricate posts to misinform people
:) That is your Boyfriends field of expertize :)
> You have a loooooong way ahead - in evolution.
Ahead of you? Totally true!
> WolfWolf
The Zapotekan hehehe heh h eh e hh eheh he he
You have to admit it's closer ;)
Org
A11otrios
shapes:
Didn't you know? Moroccan Jews are the descendants of Alexander the
Great! Straight out of Roxane's womb!
hehehehehe
Org
gogu
news:3f53b3cd.02021...@posting.google.com...> > ivay...@my-deja.com (ivaylo p. ivanov) wrote in message > > I don't
know what you consider respectable, I guess it could be ones
> > that would give you ammunition against Macedonians!? :-) These results
> > are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals and
> > seem to be well regarded in medical circles.
> I am very sorry to inform you but "Tissue Antigens" is most definately
> NOT a "very respectable journal" when it comes to studies on human
> evolution! The journals "Science" and "PNAS" ARE! None of the labs
> mentioned by you are known to me. All of the labs mentioned by "Gogu"
> are.
What do you expect by a propagandist? Lies, ambiguous sources, screaming and
nothing more.
> Several years ago I did a research for myself (by going to the library
> not some webpages) and found that all (or almost all) papers on the
> subject that came from Balkan countries were POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.
And that's exactly why I didn't use any Greek sources, just to prevent this
propagandist from saying my sources are biased. But it seems that he
comprehension skills are around zero... A simpleton I would say.
> If
> I have time I will look at yours but I doubt I will find something
> different.
ALL of his sources come from "Macedonian" sites... That alone says too
much...
> The papers quoted by "Gogu" come from respected neutral
> teams that have nothing to gain from supporting the various Balkan
> sides.
And that's why he can not comment on them! Typical propagandist behavior!
> Ivaylo.
gogu
news:a48q6v$fan$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...> news:pZJ98.1312$dR.292...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "choro-nik" <chor...@choro.com> wrote in message
> > news:5IA98.3266$dL6.22...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly?
> >
> Go fix your brain - and your genes - with instant glue!
What a NAZI TURK!!!
> WolfWolf
> The Romanian/Turkish FASCIST and uneducated TROLL!!!
gogu
> Gogu - Barbarian is a synonym for the antique Macedonians, comprende? So
why
> shouldn't he speak about it, moron?
> And if names give indication about being biased - look at your own. It
> couldn't be worse!!
> Doesn't it show your origin as mongrel from south Moldovia?
>
> Now go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego!
My
> Ozo drinking & Suflaki eating schmuck...
THIS IS HOW A BARBARIAN TURK IS SPEAKING AND BEHAVING!
And with such citizens (though not all of them...), Turkey wants in EU...
gogu
news:338e7fad.0202...@posting.google.com...
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<a46ss3$fnb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
>
>
> ...
> > A different kind of statistical analysis using 61 alleles (Barbujani &
Sokal
> > 1991b) provided rather contradictory results, such as the 'lack of
genetic
> > differentiation of Sicily' (ibid: 408), though they concurred that
borders
> > showing 'sharp genetic change' were discernible around Magna Graecia and
> > Etruria. However they were concentrating on whether modern linguistic
> > differences showed any relation to modern genetic differentiation. They
> > concluded that in Italy 'there are cases in which linguistic
differentiation
> > appears to maintain, and not only to be correlated with, genetic
> > differentiation' (ibid: 409).
> I am very surprised that a Greek would like to cite this particular
> study since it showed that there is a clear genetic disequilibrium
> between the Greeks of Northern (Macedonia/Thrace) and Southern Greece
> (something I've discussed at length here before).
!!! I am sorry to say that, but it looks like a typical slav distortion!
Where did you find the word "Macedonia" here?
Do you have any references for this "fact". If not, try this one:
http://archaeology.lamp.ac.uk/amarkp/PUBLIST/GLASN1.HTM
"Italy is the best-studied country in Europe in terms of gene frequency
analyses
...
The best discrimination was of historically-attested areas of Greek
immigration (Magna Graecia) from the rest of Italy. Southern Italian
populations are genetically similar to those of modern Greece, and a
difference between east and west Sicilia was also ascribed to Greek
colonization in the east, and Phoenician colonization in the west "
> This is one of only
> two disequilibria that they found in the whole of Europe which could
> not be explained by linguistic differences!!! Surprisingly (or perhaps
> not surprisingly), no such genetic barrier existed between Northern
> Greeks and Bulgarians or Northern Greeks and Macedonians (the Skopje
> type).
1) Give the source! (I hope is not from a "Macedonian" or Bulgarian site:-))
2) IF this is true, it is because YOU ARE GREEKS and you don't know:-)
> Incidentally, it has been know for a long time that the Greeks
> of Southern Greece have sharply different allele frequencies compared
> to people populating the rest of the Balkans (including Northern
> Greece)!
" it has been know for a long time "??? By whom? Where? Are you able to give
a source about that? I mean regarding Northern Greeks...
As usually, you are "explaining" things at your will:-)
Nothing new!
Try again!
> Ivaylo.
gogu
>
> How can you say this, Junebugger?
> Have you been there when the tests were made?
> Do you know the test persons and their identities?
>
> Are you so hungry that you mixed among them in order to get some free
> biscuits after the tests?
Typical answer of SOME Turks...
Oh well, you see, they even want in EU:-)
WolfWolf
> ? "ivaylo p. ivanov" <Ivay...@my-deja.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:3f53b3cd.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > tm...@soon.com (Gjorgji Pulevski) wrote in message
> news:<2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com>...
> > > ivay...@my-deja.com (ivaylo p. ivanov) wrote in message > > I don't
> know what you consider respectable, I guess it could be ones
> > > that would give you ammunition against Macedonians!? :-) These results
> > > are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals and
> > > seem to be well regarded in medical circles.
>
>
> > I am very sorry to inform you but "Tissue Antigens" is most definately
> > NOT a "very respectable journal" when it comes to studies on human
> > evolution! The journals "Science" and "PNAS" ARE! None of the labs
> > mentioned by you are known to me. All of the labs mentioned by "Gogu"
> > are.
>
> screaming and nothing more.
>
Gogu, your propagandist nature (and other bad habits) are known already in
soc.culture.romanian.
Now they have thrown you out from there.
And now you are filling this newsgroup with your stench?
Doesn't work, you know?
Wait and see ... your end is near, liar!
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
> Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:a48q6v$fan$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
> >
> > "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > news:pZJ98.1312$dR.292...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> > >
> > > "choro-nik" <chor...@choro.com> wrote in message
> > > news:5IA98.3266$dL6.22...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > > > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly?
> > >
> > > Go wash your mouth out with soap.
>
>
> > Go fix your brain - and your genes - with instant glue!
> >
> > The European
>
Did you say something, moron?!?
Go and satisfy your craving for admiration elsewhere.
We have not asked for your pathetic lies, and we don't them.
WolfWolf
The European
gogu
Hehehe:-))) The IDIOT Turk is describing what he is suffering from:-)))
What a mega-JERK:-))))
WolfWolf
> Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:a47764$haq$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
>
> > Gogu - Barbarian is a synonym for the antique Macedonians, comprende? So
> why
> > shouldn't he speak about it, moron?
> > And if names give indication about being biased - look at your own. It
> > couldn't be worse!!
> > Doesn't it show your origin as mongrel from south Moldovia?
> >
> > Now go happy and find a goat in the plains of Hellas and master you ego!
> My
> > Ozo drinking & Suflaki eating schmuck...
>
THIS IS HOW A ROMNIAN FASCIST IS SPEAKING AND BEHAVING!
And with such citizens (though not all of them...), Romania wants to enter
the EU...
What a moron, this Gogu 'Crazyglue'!!
Experts in gogulogy have traced his itinerary and have found out his pattern
of behaviour.
He is a riffraff shunning the light. He travels by night in closed
containers. He is knocking around in a grey zone in the triangle Ankara -
Thessaloniki - Bucuresti. His whereabouts are mainly in the Gara de Nord
area. His means of maintenance is supposed to be traffick of prostitutes,
preferably with AIDS.
He is a blatant liar by nature. His physiological constitution doesn't allow
him to tell the truth. Truth produces decomposition of Gogu's organic
matter - hence the unusual quantity and pressure of methan gases.
The final solution of the Gogu phenomenon comes nearer. The grey zone of his
erratic trips is about to be closed. Once Romania and Turkey become full EU
members, the extended control by the Schengen rules will allow to close the
gap and expell the stinky goat from the civilized community.
For this purpose, the EU Commission has extended the accession chapters by
an additional set of rules under the name 'Gogu Repression Policy' (GRP).
The governments of the EU members and candidate states have welcomed this
initiative unanimously.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
No need to be sorry, Golanule idiotule, it is written in the document, and
to understand it you must read it.
And here's where the problem starts.
How can we expect from an uncivilized moron like you to read?
Get lost, pimpleface, yoou are a risk for humanity.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
Gogu este un copil batrin, in crize de spasmofilie.
"gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a4c5om$3o6$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:a489pp$6pk$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
> >
>
> > How can you say this, Junebugger?
> > Have you been there when the tests were made?
> > Do you know the test persons and their identities?
> >
> > Are you so hungry that you mixed among them in order to get some free
> > biscuits after the tests?
> >
> > WolfWolf
> > The European
>
>
>
>
WolfWolf
>
> Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> news:a4b2pg$3a9$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> >
> > "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> > news:MPG.16d30fcfc...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > > Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <kX0a8.4885$ch3.33684539@news-
> > > text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > > > phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the
greek
> > > > alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet
> > >
> > > There was no phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were still using
> ideograms.
>
>
> > Allotrios boy, what's your problem now? Eating Disorders, Panic
Disorder,
> > Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD),
> > Sexual Dysfunction, Addictive Disorders, Phobias, Advanced Issues in
> > Spiritual Warfare, Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), or Satanic
Ritual
> > Abuse (SRA)?
>
> What a mega-JERK I am:-))))
> Dracula and Frankenstein are nothing against me:-))))
We know that, Golanule Crazyglue.
Now let us see the rest of your diagnostics.
Who - or better what - is Gogu the stinky goat? He was found to be the
stupidest creature ever existed on the face of the earth and maybe in the
entire universe, known and unknown. His stupidity is incommensurable, no
one, even the greatest psychiatrists, really believed that something so dumb
can exist freely in nature, until he showed up. He is and will be a big
question mark for the doctors and the garbage men in the years to come.
Nature is full of mysteries.
WolfWolf
The European
gogu
>
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a4c47g$2ua$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> > ? "ivaylo p. ivanov" <Ivay...@my-deja.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> > news:3f53b3cd.02021...@posting.google.com...
> > > tm...@soon.com (Gjorgji Pulevski) wrote in message
> > news:<2570cd8.02021...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > ivay...@my-deja.com (ivaylo p. ivanov) wrote in message > > I don't
> > know what you consider respectable, I guess it could be ones
> > > > that would give you ammunition against Macedonians!? :-) These
results
> > > > are published in very respectable medical and scientific journals
and
> > > > seem to be well regarded in medical circles.
> >
> >
> > > I am very sorry to inform you but "Tissue Antigens" is most definately
> > > NOT a "very respectable journal" when it comes to studies on human
> > > evolution! The journals "Science" and "PNAS" ARE! None of the labs
> > > mentioned by you are known to me. All of the labs mentioned by "Gogu"
> > > are.
> >
> > What do you expect by a propagandist like me? Lies, ambiguous sources,
> > screaming and nothing more.
> Gogu, your propagandist nature (and other bad habits) are known already in
> soc.culture.romanian.
> Now they have thrown you out from there.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-)))))
You mean like THAT?:-)))
-------------------------------
From: Max Betivul (maxbe...@japan.com)
Subject: Re: Kiss my Ass Nazi Shit !!!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
View: Complete Thread (6 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2002-01-31 14:15:29 PST
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
news:a3cetl$fi6$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> Manowar is a stoned koala bear drooling eucalyptus spittle!
hi eeeeh this time IT is Btwin US [ro]yr interfering with
NO ath. reasons than kiddie stuff rev. BsoK and sQat oka ?
Tx M
---------------------------
From: Max Betivul (maxbe...@japan.com)
Subject: to:Miss Greywolf Shit wolfwolf aka LeusteanMult
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.europe
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
Date: 2001-12-19 13:10:06 PST
I would like to take a moment to put inexorable pressure on Miss Greywolf
Shit
Wolf I to be a bit more careful about what she says and does. Let me start
by
stressing that I am not attempting to suppress anyone's opinions, nor do I
intend to demean Miss WolfWolf personally for her beliefs or worldviews. But
I
do feel that I must build bridges where in the past all that existed were
moats
and drawbridges. And there you have it:
Subject: Re: Reality
There are other communities similarly distributed over several countries
without own nations, and also with an important overall population. Think
about the gipsies in Romania .
WolfWolf
Subject: Re: Press release EU-Turkey
Critics about human rights, even more severe, can also be found in EU
statements about other candidates like Romania :-((orphan childs).
WolfWolf
Only Miss Greywolf Shit Wolf I could possibly insist that we should avoid
personal responsibility , Muuuuuie WolfuleGreyWolf vuile kut if you have to
shit on gogu and it's pers oka BUT don't shit on romanians Bhind their backs
lul !!
-------------------------------
From: Max Betivul (maxbe...@japan.com)
Subject: to wolfwolf
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.turkish, soc.culture.greek
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
Date: 2002-01-25 13:37:10 PST
take the spams with you and get A life or wanke on proper groups
fa o pauza baaaaaaa baka gitit or yr begING for span[M]king ? mmmm
---------------------------------
From: max (maxbe...@usa.com)
Subject: Re: Turkey is NOT Europe
Newsgroups: talk.politics.european-union, soc.culture.turkish,
soc.culture.greek, soc.culture.romanian
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
Date: 2002-01-25 14:01:03 PST
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> wrote in message
news:<a2fnld$d0$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com>...
WolfWolf dreaming of beeing The European
Hundreds of political prisoners in Turkey have been on a hunger strike
since October 20. There are almost 1000 hunger strikers spread among
several different prisons in Turkey. About 100 of them are committed
to hunger strike until death if their just demands are not met. They
are protesting the imposition of the "F System" by Turkish prison
officials. This is a system modeled on U.S. maximum security behavior
modification prisons that impose hi tech total isolation on prisoners
in order to break down their morale and control them politically. This
system is physical and psychological torture. As the hunger strike
continues, hundreds of political prisoners in Turkeyis prisons are at
risk of dying soon.
As you may know, Amnesty International opposes continued U.S. arms
shipments to Turkey. Amnesty believes Turkey has one of the worst
human rights records in the world, especially with respect to its
Kurdish minority. In particular, Amnesty opposes the proposed sale of
$4 billion in attack helicopters produced by the Bell Textron
Corporation in Texas. Since Congress must approve or reject the
transfer of these weapons to Turkey, would you kindly inform me of
your position on the proposed sale?
The forces of darkness are making inroads with every passing day.
Turkey, which controls half of the Kurdish land, refuses to even
acknowledge our presence. Turkish Kurdistan is called Eastern Turkey.
Kurds are called Turks and only recently and very reluctantly, Turks
of Kurdish origin. The Turkish law prohibits the Kurdish language and
culture. Mehmet Esat Bozkurt, a contemporary of Ataturk, a member of
his cabinet, was not expressing a personal opinion or being ironic
when he said, "We live in the freest country, which is called Turkey.
The Turk is the only lord, the only master of this country. Those who
are not of purely Turkish origin have only one right in this country:
the right to be servants, the right to be slaves." After seventy
years, nothing has changed.
With three other Kurds, two of whom had been my deputies, I was
transferred to the military prison number one in Diyarbakir. Whereas
my friends were locked in the same cell, I was isolated in another.
For three days I didn't see anyone -- a guard brought me my food and
took the plate away. I knocked on the door in order to get the news. A
sergeant told me, "It is for your security that you are locked up
alone." I stayed handcuffed in this disgusting cell for ten days, in
total seclusion. However, compared with what I had already seen, this
cell was rather spacious: two meters by 1.7 meters. There was a bed
but no mattress. I was dirty and there was no way to wash myself. I
wallowed in my filth, dreaming of a faucet, of a little bit of cologne
on some cotton. After being in custody for thirty days, on the
eleventh day of solitary confinement, I received a visit from a member
of my family. We were forbidden to speak Kurdish. My mother cried,
confronted with my silence. I refused to speak Turkish, and my mother
lamented, "My son has become a deaf-mute!"
Everything was a pretext for beatings and torture. O No one wanted to
anger a guard. If for some reason someone protested and the guard got
a hold of him, he would make him pay dearly. No sooner was he carted
off than, entirely undressed, he was held face down by four guards.
Each one holding one of his limps, they then shoved a club as far as
possible up his rectum. This is like the old torture by impalement,
except that the club did not have a point in order to rip up the
organs and kill the victims by inches. They were only trying to
humiliate us down to our very core. While they were impaling us, they
called us butt-fucked and asked us if we liked it.
Still worse, they [sometimes] let about fifty prisoners out of cell
and in front of everyone, they would make one of us hold the club and
another sit on it. If we refused to sit on the club, we were just as
quickly beaten. Yet very few of us gave in. So the jailers ganged up
in a group of seven or eight in order to punish and humiliate the
rebel. They sodomized him with the club, in front of us, and when they
took it out, all covered in blood, they shoved it in his mouth to make
him suck it. Those who underwent this test were broken for months,
their virility destroyed. We tried to boost their spirits. In order
not to undergo this dreaded torture, the prisoners submitted [to many
of the things that were asked of them]. So they were forced to shout,
"I am so proud to be Turkish" or "A Turk is worth the whole universe"
or "Turks have brought civilization to all the countries they have
conquered!"
Turkey is Europe ?
----------------------------------
YOU ARE TAKING SLAPS IN EVERY POSTING YOU REPLY, why don't you understand
that YOU are an IDIOT and a LOW CLASS scam that always will be ripped off by
me?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
Now, who was "thrown out from there" you FUCKING Pigpig?:-))))))))))
Once again, you are going away with your tail among legs:-)))
> And now you are filling this newsgroup with your stench?
> Doesn't work, you know?
> Wait and see ... your end is near, liar!
Hehehehehe:-))))
I PROVED who is the SPAMMER here Pigpig:-)))
Go away, buzz off:-)))
> WolfWolf
> The Romanian?turkish FASCIST and uneducated TROLL!!!
June R Harton
"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C688D71...@sympatico.ca...
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
.......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
> chop, chop!!! off with your head!!!
>
> don't say you were not warned, June.
>
> --
> choro-nik
Forwarded to the authorities, Turk.
from: Spirit of Truth
June R Harton
> And it's Greeks that like to give names by force ;-))
Not necessary, they have a real name, Bulgarians.
June R Harton
"WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> spammed and wrote nonsence
in message news:a4c7em$jb$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
ivaylo p. ivanov
> ? "ivaylo p. ivanov" <ivay...@my-deja.com> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:338e7fad.0202...@posting.google.com...
> > "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<a46ss3$fnb$1...@usenet.otenet.gr>...
> >
> >
> > ...
> > > A different kind of statistical analysis using 61 alleles (Barbujani &
> Sokal
> > > 1991b) provided rather contradictory results, such as the 'lack of
> genetic
> > > differentiation of Sicily' (ibid: 408), though they concurred that
> borders
> > > showing 'sharp genetic change' were discernible around Magna Graecia and
> > > Etruria. However they were concentrating on whether modern linguistic
> > > differences showed any relation to modern genetic differentiation. They
> > > concluded that in Italy 'there are cases in which linguistic
> differentiation
> > > appears to maintain, and not only to be correlated with, genetic
> > > differentiation' (ibid: 409).
>
>
> > I am very surprised that a Greek would like to cite this particular
> > study since it showed that there is a clear genetic disequilibrium
> > between the Greeks of Northern (Macedonia/Thrace) and Southern Greece
> > (something I've discussed at length here before).
>
> !!! I am sorry to say that, but it looks like a typical slav distortion!
> Where did you find the word "Macedonia" here?
What are you talking about? Now Northern Greece is no longer Macedonia
and Thrace? That's a new one.
>
> Do you have any references for this "fact". If not, try this one:
>
> http://archaeology.lamp.ac.uk/amarkp/PUBLIST/GLASN1.HTM
>
> "Italy is the best-studied country in Europe in terms of gene frequency
> analyses
> ...
> The best discrimination was of historically-attested areas of Greek
> immigration (Magna Graecia) from the rest of Italy. Southern Italian
> populations are genetically similar to those of modern Greece, and a
> difference between east and west Sicilia was also ascribed to Greek
> colonization in the east, and Phoenician colonization in the west "
>
>
> > This is one of only
> > two disequilibria that they found in the whole of Europe which could
> > not be explained by linguistic differences!!! Surprisingly (or perhaps
> > not surprisingly), no such genetic barrier existed between Northern
> > Greeks and Bulgarians or Northern Greeks and Macedonians (the Skopje
> > type).
>
> 1) Give the source! (I hope is not from a "Macedonian" or Bulgarian site:-))
I guess you are not in the habit of reading the papers you cite! Read
my friend, read before you write.
Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R.
Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are also linguistic
boundaries.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9.
Here is a short quote from the abstract – "Of the 33
gene-frequency boundaries discovered in this way, 31 are coincident
with linguistic boundaries marking contiguous regions of different
language families, languages, or dialects. The remaining two
boundaries (through Iceland and Greece) separate descendants of
different ethnic or geographical provenance but lack modern linguistic
correlates." Read the rest of the paper for more details.
> 2) IF this is true, it is because YOU ARE GREEKS and you don't know:-)
Yeh, as much as you are Bulgarian!
>
>
> > Incidentally, it has been know for a long time that the Greeks
> > of Southern Greece have sharply different allele frequencies compared
> > to people populating the rest of the Balkans (including Northern
> > Greece)!
>
> " it has been know for a long time "??? By whom? Where? Are you able to give
> a source about that? I mean regarding Northern Greeks...
I am talking about the "ABO" blood type groups. If I remember
correctly the frequency of the "A" allele drops quite dramatically
from the Bulgarian border to Peloponnesus. This is quite an old stuff
(may be 1940-s) but if you still insist on a reference I will try to
find one. Most U.S. colledge textbook on Human Genetics include a
figure on the distribution of the ABO alleles in Europe.
Ivaylo.
June R Harton
"ivaylo p. ivanov" <ivay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:338e7fad.02021...@posting.google.com...
However the rational for it may be explained several ways.
A11otrios
>
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a4c5d8$3fe$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> > Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> > news:a48q6v$fan$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
> > >
> > > "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:pZJ98.1312$dR.292...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> > > >
> > > > "choro-nik" <chor...@choro.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:5IA98.3266$dL6.22...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > > > > > 5) There is NO mention of any Slavs. Where did they come from ?
> > > > > ==name given to ancient true macedonians latterly?
> > > >
> > > > Go wash your mouth out with soap.
> >
> >
> > > Go fix your brain - and your genes - with instant glue!
> > >
> > > WolfWolf
Romanian? Did you mean Roma? He is a Gypsy? Strange! Gypsies are smarter
than Turks but PigPig has only the turkish characteristics!
> >
> >
>
> Did you say something, moron?!?
Sheesh. GoofGoof is deaf and blind too :)
> Go and satisfy your craving for admiration elsewhere.
You never seem to follow your own advice. Typical :)
> We have not asked for your pathetic lies,
He didn't give you any :) Or did he call you an intelligent person or
something like that?
> and we don't them.
And you don't them? hhhhhhheh heheheheh hehehe
A11otrios
>
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a4c7ad$4mk$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> >
> > Ο "WolfWolf" <em...@address.net> έγραψε στο μήνυμα
> > news:a4b2pg$3a9$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
> > >
> > > "A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.16d30fcfc...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > > > Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <kX0a8.4885$ch3.33684539@news-
> > > > text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > > > > phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the
> greek
> > > > > alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet
> > > >
> > > > There was no phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were still using
> > ideograms.
> >
> >
> > > Allotrios boy, what's your problem now? Eating Disorders, Panic
> Disorder,
> > > Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD),
> > > Sexual Dysfunction, Addictive Disorders, Phobias, Advanced Issues in
> > > Spiritual Warfare, Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), or Satanic
> Ritual
> > > Abuse (SRA)?
> >
> > What a mega-JERK:-))))
> > > WolfWolf
> > > The Romanian/Turkish FASCIST and uneducated TROLL!!!
>
> We know that, Golanule Crazyglue.
I would be very worried if you didn't know you are a Romanian/Turkish
FASCIST and uneducated TROLL :)
> Now let us see the rest of your diagnostics.
Nah! You couldn't diagnose lack of brain in yourself so why try to
diagnose anything else on others :)
Stick with fabricating our posts :) It is the only thing you got left :)
Org
A11otrios
shapes:
No he didn't say that, he said that in the report, there is no mention of
Northern Greeks being different to southern. It says that Southern
italians are similar to Modern Greeks. Macedonia IS in Modern Greece. I
think it was just a misunderstanding.
> > 1) Give the source! (I hope is not from a "Macedonian" or Bulgarian site:-))
>
> I guess you are not in the habit of reading the papers you cite! Read
> my friend, read before you write.
> Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R.
> Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are also linguistic
> boundaries.
> Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9.
>
> Here is a short quote from the abstract – "Of the 33
> gene-frequency boundaries discovered in this way, 31 are coincident
> with linguistic boundaries marking contiguous regions of different
> language families, languages, or dialects. The remaining two
> boundaries (through Iceland and Greece) separate descendants of
> different ethnic or geographical provenance but lack modern linguistic
> correlates." Read the rest of the paper for more details.
Is it referring to Thrace maybe?
> > 2) IF this is true, it is because YOU ARE GREEKS and you don't know:-)
>
> Yeh, as much as you are Bulgarian!
That wouldn't explain how can southern Italians are also Bulgarians ;)
Org
++
Could you post Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R., Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are
also linguistic
boundaries.,Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9. If you can access it?
Galina
ivaylo p. ivanov
Of course there is! Read the paper!
> It says that Southern
> italians are similar to Modern Greeks.
I don't see anything of this sort there. In fact it shows a clear
genetic boundary between Greeks (in Greece) and Southern Italians.
> Macedonia IS in Modern Greece.I
> think it was just a misunderstanding.
>
> > > 1) Give the source! (I hope is not from a "Macedonian" or Bulgarian site:-))
> >
> > I guess you are not in the habit of reading the papers you cite! Read
> > my friend, read before you write.
> > Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R.
> > Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are also linguistic
> > boundaries.
> > Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9.
> >
> > Here is a short quote from the abstract – "Of the 33
> > gene-frequency boundaries discovered in this way, 31 are coincident
> > with linguistic boundaries marking contiguous regions of different
> > language families, languages, or dialects. The remaining two
> > boundaries (through Iceland and Greece) separate descendants of
> > different ethnic or geographical provenance but lack modern linguistic
> > correlates." Read the rest of the paper for more details.
>
> Is it referring to Thrace maybe?
Is Salonika now in Thrace? See Fig.1 and tell me where the boundary
is.
Ivaylo.
WolfWolf
Yes, I mean like that:
From: Petre (petre_w...@scr.com)
Subject: Re: Mr. Wolf is absolutely right! Gogu gotta Pay Billions!!!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
View: Complete Thread (2 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2002-01-31 15:11:12 PST
...
At the same time You are constantly fighting against
Racism, Nazi and anti-Semitism...
We are happy that you're expressing your thoughts
on SCR.
Thanks for your time!
Petre
PS
Regarding the mother fucker stinky goat,
we should go to the end.
The International Tribunal.
------------------------------------------------
From: Petre (petre_w...@scr.com)
Subject: Re: Gogu = Securist?!?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
View: (This is the only article in this thread) | Original Format
Date: 2001-12-16 20:11:58 PST
...
E prea prost capra de gogu!
Gogu=mother fucker goat!
------------------------------------------------
From: Petre (petre_w...@scr.com)
Subject: Re: GOGU FASCIST
Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
View: Complete Thread (10 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2002-01-10 12:55:28 PST
As true as I stand here!
More over, he proved so many times
that his background - stupid clown,
is to be continued forever.
As far as I am concerned, gogu is a rag
good to wipe the shoes so far.
That's why we need him on scr!
It is obvious that you've gotten very subtle
skills to discover sick people, especially
with mental disorder,obnoxious characters,
epileptic, etc.
We sincerely appreciate your valuable contribution
to help untreatable people, for instance this dirty
mother fucker goat - gogupulici.
------------------------------------------------
From: Pravda Justice (pra...@srs.org.yu)
Subject: Re: WHEN I FUCKED Marsy-girls' baboon MOM SHE WAS PREGNANT WITH a
goat:-)))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.albanian
View this article only
Date: 2001-04-13 11:32:04 PST
Its very discussionable whether gogu is a homosexual but even if it were the
truth, he likes them young as the prettiest are in Greece, while only
perverted SHIPTARI fuck the old. Did you have a nice time with his mother?
I heard she had to get an abortion (the doctor on routine check found she
was carrying a baboon - type of monkey).
------------------------------------------------
Now - where else can you find a place for releasing your stench?
Get lost, baboon! We really don't need you!!
WolfWolf
The European
gogu
First of all, I said that in the specific passage I gave above THERE IS NO
mention
about Northern or Southern Greeks! Not that there is not in the entire
study! But if you read all the study you will
see that there is no reference that
Northern Greeks are COMPLETELY different from the Southern ones, as you want
to present it!
OTOH and if you want it that way, yes, but in this context the "Northern" is
not meant strictly describing
Macedonians but is meant geographically, with all the comes and goes of
people, plus that the "blood" boundaries are not as clear as in geography!
In few words, the reference is meant as a general guide. That was what I
understood. Maybe you are the most clever person around:-)
> > Do you have any references for this "fact". If not, try this one:
> >
> > http://archaeology.lamp.ac.uk/amarkp/PUBLIST/GLASN1.HTM
> >
> > "Italy is the best-studied country in Europe in terms of gene frequency
> > analyses
> > ...
> > The best discrimination was of historically-attested areas of Greek
> > immigration (Magna Graecia) from the rest of Italy. Southern Italian
> > populations are genetically similar to those of modern Greece, and a
> > difference between east and west Sicilia was also ascribed to Greek
> > colonization in the east, and Phoenician colonization in the west "
> >
> >
> > > This is one of only
> > > two disequilibria that they found in the whole of Europe which could
> > > not be explained by linguistic differences!!! Surprisingly (or perhaps
> > > not surprisingly), no such genetic barrier existed between Northern
> > > Greeks and Bulgarians or Northern Greeks and Macedonians (the Skopje
> > > type).
> >
> > 1) Give the source! (I hope is not from a "Macedonian" or Bulgarian
site:-))
> I guess you are not in the habit of reading the papers you cite!
Always! It is matter of interpretation though...
BTW, I am not so convinced that the theory of the so called "genetic
barriers" is infallible and I am more than sure that a revision will soon
appear as science is giving us better tools to define that... And GREATER
numbers of population willing to participate in such "experiments"... Do not
forget that science is making enormous steps forward and that at the time of
the study the sample was VERY SMALL!... We must say the WHOLE truth, not
only was is better serving our purposes...
> Read
> my friend, read before you write.
> Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R.
> Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are also linguistic
> boundaries.
> Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9.
>
> Here is a short quote from the abstract – "Of the 33
> gene-frequency boundaries discovered in this way, 31 are coincident
> with linguistic boundaries marking contiguous regions of different
> language families, languages, or dialects. The remaining two
> boundaries (through Iceland and Greece) separate descendants of
> different ethnic or geographical provenance but lack modern linguistic
> correlates." Read the rest of the paper for more details.
>
>
> > 2) IF this is true, it is because YOU ARE GREEKS and you don't know:-)
>
> Yeh, as much as you are Bulgarian!
Hehehe:-))) I am sure you would like that:-)
The truth is that modern Bulgarians have more Greek blood in them that
Greeks have Bulgarian!
Anyway, what is the point here? FYROM-ians can bark as long as they want
(the same can do some extremist Bulgarians), but what do you think they can
achieve? Every respectable history book describes Macedonians as people of
Greek stock and as I said every museum has Macedonian art in the Greek
section! So, what is the purpose of all this shit, from a people without
history that wants to steal the past of other people? Do you really think
they will sometime achieve their target? Do you really think that historians
around the world are stupid? Modern FYROM-ians are of slavic stock and no
serious scholar exists to deny that! The "Macedonian" ethnicity was created
by Tito -this is a well known fact for every person of good faith- and as
you can see in a Yugoslavian stamp somebody posted here, the name of that
province is CLEARLY "Vardarska"! And it is a YUGOSLAVIAN stamp, not a Greek
one:-)
> > > Incidentally, it has been know for a long time that the Greeks
> > > of Southern Greece have sharply different allele frequencies compared
> > > to people populating the rest of the Balkans (including Northern
> > > Greece)!
> >
> > " it has been know for a long time "??? By whom? Where? Are you able to
give
> > a source about that? I mean regarding Northern Greeks...
> I am talking about the "ABO" blood type groups. If I remember
> correctly the frequency of the "A" allele drops quite dramatically
> from the Bulgarian border to Peloponnesus. This is quite an old stuff
> (may be 1940-s) but if you still insist on a reference I will try to
> find one. Most U.S. colledge textbook on Human Genetics include a
> figure on the distribution of the ABO alleles in Europe.
Firstly sorry, I read "Southern Italy" instead of "Southern Greece"!
Secondly, it can be explained in more than one manners:
differences between Northern and Southern Greeks can and must exist, because
Greeks as you know were not all of exactly the same phylae! Dorians,
Ionians,
Achaeans, etc. That's why that difference. Macedonians were a
Doric phylae, Athenians (and most of the Southern Greeks) were not! So the
lack of a barrier between Northern Greeks and Bulgarians-FYROMians could
easily
explained saying that (many of) YOU and those FYROM-ians have a certain
percentage of GREEK
(Macedonian - the REAL type:-)) blood and you don't even know it:-)
Janissaries?:-) Just pulling your leg:-)
> Ivaylo.
gogu
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA:-))))
You are forgetting to say that PETRE is YOUR informer in scr and the MOST
HATED anti-Romanian there! Actually, he was forced to DISAPPEAR because
EVERYBODY was treating him like a TRASH!
OTOH, spatarul, MDP, Manower, Max, Max Betivul, Archivist4 and other
scr-ians SHITTED in your mouth:-)
So your explanations are as usually BULLSHIT:-))))
Take a nap you IDIOT TURK!
> From: Petre (petre_w...@scr.com)
HAHAHAHAHAHA:-)))
After you were PROVED to be a FUCKING LIAR, an ABUSER, a TROLL, a SPAMMER
and a PERVERTED Turk, you are continuing barking like a mad dog:-))) Oh
well, the usual Turkish extremist behavior:-) That's good, people are going
to know what (some) Turks are:-)))
choro-nik
believe it or not. <big G>
--
choro-nik
"Voyager" <ji...@dmail.com> wrote in message
news:10135205...@athprx02.forthnet.gr...
> Will you give us a break and go away with these nonsense
> of yours.
> Are you really believe that even a single reasonable person can
> ever believe your nonsense ?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gjorgji Pulevski <tm...@soon.com>
> Newsgroups:
>
alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.bulgaria,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkis
> h,soc.culture.europe
> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:51 AM
> Subject: Re: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the
> Greeks
>
>
> > "Ilya Talev" <ta...@attglobal.net> wrote >
> >
> > [Lots of Tataroman mornonic drivel deleted!]
> >
> > >Fantastic Discoveries!
> >
> > Yes indeed!!! :-)
> >
> > > IT
> >
> > Read below first and the talk, glupcho!
> >
> > A short summary....
> >
> > January 27 2002 Trajko
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > Fwd from Macedonia Forum: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/64646
> >
> > HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks
> >
> > Abstract: HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the
> > Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR,
> > -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first
> > time determined and the results compared to those of other
> > Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic
> > distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis
> > have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1)
> > Macedonians belong to the ‘‘older’’
> > Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North
> > Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks
> > (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related
> > with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the
> > ‘‘older’’ Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks
> > are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian)
> > people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both
> > Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as
> > *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304
> > and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and
> > Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and
> > finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour
> > joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when
> > these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and
> > might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people
> > living in pharaonic Egypt. The highly polymorphic HLA system has been
> > validated as useful for distinguishing and/or relating populations
> > (and individuals) in many research studies since the first
> > International HLA Anthropology Workshop (Evian, 1973) and in all the
> > subsequent seven International Workshops. HLA gene frequencies
> > correlate with geographically related populations. The existence or
> > absence of gene flow among neighbouring ethnic groups may be assessed
> > with the study of HLA frequencies and the corresponding genetic
> > distances (1, 2).
> >
> > [....]
> >
> >
> > Discussion
> >
> > Macedonians
> >
> > Our results show that Macedonians are related to other Mediterraneans
> > and do not show a close relationship with Greeks; however they do with
> > Cretans (Tables 3, 4, Figs 1–3). This supports the theory that
> > Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan
> > peninsula, probably long before arrival of the Mycaenian Greeks (10)
> > about 2000 B.C....The cultural, historical and genetic identity of
> > Macedonians is established according to our results. However, 19th
> > century historians focused all the culture in Greece ignoring all the
> > other Mediterranean cultures present in the area long before the
> > classical Greek one (25).
> >
> > Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans
> >
> > Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close
> > relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed (Tables 5, 6
> > and Figs 1–3) was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan
> > ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan and West Africa
> > (Burkina-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely
> > specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles (Table
> > 5) is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek
> > genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at
> > an uncertain but ancient time.
> >
> > The origin of the West African Black ethnic groups (Fulani, Mossi and
> > Rimaibe sampled in Burkina-Fasso) is probably Ethiopian (26, 27) (Fig.
> > 4). The Fulani are semi-nomadic hunters and gatherers and one of the
> > few people in the area to use cows’ milk and its byproducts to
> > feed themselves and to trade; their facial parameters show a Caucasian
> > admixture. The Rimaibe Blacks have been slaves belonging to the Fulani
> > and have frequently mixed with them (27).
> >
> > The Nuba people are now widespread all over Sudan, but are descendants
> > of the ancient Nubians that ruled Egypt between 8th–7th
> > centuries B.C. (28) and later established their kingdom at Meroe,
> > North Khartoum. Two kinds of Nubians were described in ancient times:
> > Reds and Blacks, probably reflecting the degree of Caucasian
> > admixture. Both the Oromo and Amharic peoples live in the Ethiopian
> > mountains (27). They obviously have in common a genetic background
> > with the west-African groups mentioned above. Linguistic, social,
> > traditional and historical evidence supports an east-to-west migration
> > of peoples through the Sahel (southern Sahara strip), although this is
> > still debated (26, 27).
> > Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from
> > southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part
> > of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have
> > occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least (Figs 1 and
> > 2). The reason why this admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but
> > may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire which
> > hindered foreigners establishment (10). Also, the time when admixture
> > occurred could be after the overthrown of some of the Negroid Egyptian
> > dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural
> > catastrophes (i.e.: dryness).
> > Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came
> > from Egypt (4, 25).
> >
> > Fig. 4. Map showing the location of the populations tested in the
> > present work.
> >
> >
>
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10120961
> 07
> >
> > for fair use only.
> >
> > Trajko
> >
> > --------------------
> >
> >
> > GENETIKA: MAKEDONCITE SO NAJSTARI GENI NA BALKANOT
> > January 28 2002 Trajko
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> > GENETIKA
> >
> > D-r Ko~o Dimitrovski, nau~en sorabotnik pri Katedrata za imunologija
> > za interesnite medicinski soznanija vo Madrid
> >
> > MAKEDONCITE SO NAJSTARI GENI NA BALKANOT
> >
> > Pi{uva: Mileva LAZOVA
> >
> > Spored genetskite ispituvawa HLA genite se potvrda za makedonskata
> > avtohtonost na Balkanot.
> >
> > Nie, Makedoncite, sme mnogu sli~ni so populacijata od Krit, Sicilija,
> > [panija, Francija, a sme porazli~ni od sosedniot gr~ki narod.
> >
> > Nau~niot sorabotnik pri Katedrata za imunologija, pri Medicinskiot
> > fakultet vo Skopje, d-r Ko~o Dimitrovski i svetski poznatiot prof. d-r
> > Antonio Arnaiz-Vellena od [panija, vo bolnicata "12 Oktovmri" vo
> > Madrid realiziraa ispituvawe na HLA genite kaj Makedoncite pred tri
> > godini. Iako ova ispituvawe bilo naso~eno za medicinska cel, sepak
> > otkrieni se i nekolku interesni fakti. Analizata na krvta, odnosno na
> > HLA genite kaj Makedoncite potvrdi deka makedonskata populacija e
> > mnogu sli~na so mediteranskite narodi.
> >
> > (...)
> >
> > Interesen e i faktot deka Makedoncite se prili~no razli~ni od Grcite
> > koi za razlika od nas, poteknuvaat duri od sub-Saharskiot region.
> >
> > STRU^NI ISPITUVAWA
> > Na Krit bev pokanet kako imunolog od Makedonija da referiram za
> > transplantaciite vo na{ata dr`ava, veli d-r Dimitrovski. Na taa sredba
> > ima{e stru~ni lica od celiot Balkan i od mediteranskite zemji, a be{e
> > prisuten i prof. d-r Antonio Arnaiz-Vellena od [panija koj e eden od
> > najpoznatite stru~naci za genetski i jazi~ni ispituvawa vo svetot. Toj
> > ima napraveno genetski ispituvawa na najgolem broj od mediteranski
> > narodi i na taa sredba koja be{e odr`ana pred tri godini, toj mi
> > predlo`i da realizirame genetsko istra`uvawe i na makedonskata
> > populacija. Vo toa vreme nie nemavme takvi molekularni tehniki za da
> > napravime edno vakvo genetsko ispituvawe. Sobrav primeroci na krv od
> > okolu 200 Makedonci i okolu 100 Albanci od Makedonija. Krvta ja
> > odnesov vo [panija, poto~no vo bolnicata "12 Oktomvri" vo Madrid pri
> > {to se izvr{i molekularna HLA tipizacija na na{ite primeroci. Potoa
> > rezultatite bea statisti~ki obraboteni, analizirani i prika`ani.
> >
> > Rezultatite bile objaveni vo danskoto spisanie "Tkivni antigeni" koe
> > izleguva na angliski jazik i e najzna~ajno spisanie za ovaa
> > problematika.
> >
> > Pozitivno be{e {to edna nezavisna laboratorija gi napravi tie
> > ispituvawa, zatoa {to dokolku se napravea ispituvawata kaj nas, }e
> > ima{e komentari dali e toa objektivno napraveno i analizirano, dodava
> > d-r Dimitrovski. Od dobienite soznanija nie, Makedoncite, sme mnogu
> > sli~ni so populacijata od Krit. Na{eto genetsko poteklo e mnogu blisko
> > so narodite od Mediteranot, pred s# so narodite od Korzika, Sicilija,
> > Sardinija, Francija, [panija, Italija.
> >
> >
> > Globalen pregled pome|u isto~en i zapaden Mediteran
> >
> > Vo Srbija i Albanija s# u{te ne e napraveno vakvo ispituvawe, me|utoa
> > vo Hrvatska, Slovenija, Bugarija i Grcija ima vakvi rezultati.
> > Makedonija poslednite 80-tina godini be{e vo ramkite na biv{a
> > Jugoslavija. Nacionalnite dr`avi na Balkanot se formirale samo pred
> > 150-tina godini. Pred toa, tie ne postoele i site bile samo `iteli na
> > Balkanot. Pri toa doa|ale Rimjanite, Vizantijcite, Slovenite, Turcite
> > i site se spojuvale na eden krstopat, a toj krstopat bila tokmu
> > Makedonija. Zaradi tie influksi na geni ve}e se razlikuvame od
> > Slovencite, Hrvatite, a sme poblisku do sosednite narodi. Postojat
> > somnevawa deka Slovenite do{le od zad Karpatite. Me|utoa, ako e toa
> > to~no, Slovenite vo Makedonija do{le najdaleku i se vgnezdile najdolu
> > od drugite Sloveni i pritoa se sme{ale so narodi sosema razli~ni od
> > niv. Od druga strana, Hrvatite na primer gi imale za sosedi
> > Slovencite, Srbite, koi se slavjanski narodi i mnogu sli~ni na niv i
> > kolku i da se me{aat, mala }e bide razlikata.
> >
> > Analizite od krvta na Albancite od Makedonija s# u{te ne se objaveni
> > taka {to ne bi sakal da gi komentiram.
> >
> > HLA FREKVENCIJA
> >
> > Na Krit isto taka e napraveno ispituvawe na kritskata populacija od
> > strana na Prof. Arnaiz-Villena. Spored rezultatite od tie ispituvawa
> > dojdeno e do soznanie deka lu|eto {to `iveat na Krit se mnogu sli~ni
> > so narodite od Sicilija, Sardinija, Korzika, od Mediteranskite
> > ostrovi, a pomalku se sli~ni so Grcite od kontinentot (od Atika) ili
> > od Kipar.
> >
> > Grcite za razlika od site ovie mediteranski narodi drasti~no se
> > razlikuvaat po genetskata frekvencija. Spored genetskite ispituvawa,
> > se smeta deka tie poteknuvaat od nekoi predeli od pod Sahara, poto~no
> > sub-Saharski region. Tie imaat migrirano pokraj mediteranskiot isto~en
> > breg i go naselile ovoj region kade {to se sega, se soznanijata na
> > prof. Arnaiz-Villena.
> >
> >
> > Dendrogramot ja poka`uva relacijata pome|u makedonskata i drugite
> > populacii
> >
> >
> > Nepobiten fakt e deka mo`e da se smeni ime, mo`e da se smeni jazik,
> > me|utoa genite ne mo`e da se smenat. Genite se prenesuvaat od
> > generacija na generacija, se menuvaat samo edinkite koi gi nosat tie
> > genite i dokolku nema golemi demografski promeni so odliv i priliv na
> > narod (mehani~ki priliv), toga{ genite postojano si opstojuvaat na
> > edna teritorija i imaat odredena postojana frekvencija.
> >
> > Nie vsu{nost toa go ispitavme, frekvencijata na HLA genite kaj
> > makedonskata populacija, veli d-r Dimitrovski. Pokraj toa {to sekoj
> > eden narod se prepoznava po svoite etni~ki, kulturni, jazi~ni
> > karakteristiki, se prepoznava i po odredena frekvencija na genite. HLA
> > genite se prenesuvaat so ra|awe na deca, a najgolem procent od
> > brakovite vo osnova se sklu~uvaat vrz osnova na ista etni~ka
> > pripadnost, ista religija, govorewe ist jazik. Pozdravi od genetski
> > aspekt se onie lu|e kade {to ima pogolemo me{awe na geni. Neme{aweto
> > na genite vo edna zatvorena populacija genetski ne e zdravo. Takvi
> > primeri ima kaj Evreite kade {to ne se me{aat genite od edna
> > populacija, tuku postoi me{awe na genite od edna familija, taka {to
> > edni isti geni postojano kru`at, a toa e lo{o. Treba da ima {to
> > pogolemo me{awe na genite za da mo`e organizmot da ima sposobnost {to
> > e mo`no pove}e da se odbrani od razli~ni bolesti. Vsu{nost, ovie geni
> > se zadol`eni za imunata odbrana na organizmot.
> >
> > Celta na ova ispituvawe, gledano od medicinski aspekt, e idejata da se
> > ispita frekvencijata na genite kaj sekoj narod i voedno da se napravi
> > lista na ~ekawe za transplantacija. Vo Atina minatata godina me
> > pokanija me|u pretsedava~ite na "Tretiot imunolo{ki kongres na
> > Balkanot" zatoa {to imaat `elba da napravime edna balkanska lista na
> > ~ekawe za transplantacija. Onie koi{to ~ekaat za transplantacija na
> > eden organ, so vakva lista }e imaat pogolema i pobrza mo`nost za
> > pronao|awe na pogoden daritel so geni koi se sli~ni na nivnite za da
> > mo`e organizmot pouspe{no da go prifati transplanatot.
> >
> > Pri mojata poseta vo Atina ima{e odredeni reakcii od strana na moite
> > kolegi i prijateli Grci vo vrska so objaveniot trud. Reakcijata be{e
> > prosledena so mala doza na kritika, no sepak toa ne be{e presudno za
> > da ja naru{ime na{ata sorabotka. Me prifatija srde~no i starite
> > prijatelski vrski prodol`ija vo nasoka na ponatamo{na sorabotka i
> > sozdavawe na dolgo sakanata balkanska lista na ~ekawe za
> > transplantacija.
> >
> > Pokraj ispituvawata {to gi napravivme vo Madrid, tamo{nite lu|e gi
> > informirav za Makedonija, za na{eto poteklo, gi odnesov site
> > kompakt-diskovi koi bea izdadeni, a na koi e prika`ana makedonskata
> > istorija i kultura. Odnesov i knigi i re~nici, bidej}i tie pravat i
> > lingvisti~ki studii. Tie go ispituvat potekloto na jazikot {to e mnogu
> > biten faktor zatoa {to se provlekuva od generacii na generacii i e
> > potvrda za potekloto na samiot narod koj go govori toj jazik.
> >
> > Sourced from Makedonsko Sonce
> > http://www.makedonskosonce.com/broevi/2002/sonce394/Tekst12.htm
> >
> > For fair use only.
> >
> > You can read at the link below formatted text (with highlights):
> >
>
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/message?forumid=64646&messageid=10122128
> 29
> >
> > Also forwarded from Macedonia Forum:
> > http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/64646
> >
> > For fair use only.
>
>
>
>
choro-nik
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> wrote in message
news:MPG.16d30fcfc...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Goat-like choro-nik while grazing in <kX0a8.4885$ch3.33684539@news-
> text.cableinet.net>, made the following shapes:
> > phoenician civilization preceded the greek civilization and the greek
> > alphabet was derived from the phoenician alphabet
>
> There was no phoenician alphabet. Phoenicians were still using ideograms.
==that's only what YOU say, not what academics say. BTW is that why Voyager
still talks in ideograms?
>
> > which in turn was derived
> > from an older alphabet written from right to left this older alphabet
being
> > the basis of the modern day hebrew and arabic alphabets.
>
> Nope :)
>
> > tyre was ransacked and laid to waste by alexander the great, the
macedonian,
> > who murdered 10,000 of its citizens and sold another 30,000 into
slavery.
>
> Yeap. Irrelevant though :) Alexander did the same to Thebes too :)
==you mean he committed a series of genocides. so he was a serial genocide
committer, wasn't he?
>
> Org
choro-nik
> You are a mongol man :) We are greeks :) We are pedigree, you are not ;)
choro-nik says....
no wonder your colleagues are such a mad lot. that's what too much
inbreeding does for you.
you know you should stop shagging your sisters. <G>
it's not healthy.
choro-nik
e-mail?
--
choro-nik
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:vBka8.6853$nC.110...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
choro-nik
posting by Galina?
--
choro-nik
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3C6A926D...@erols.com...
ivaylo p. ivanov
>
> Could you post Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R., Zones of sharp genetic change in Europe are
> also linguistic
> boundaries.,Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9. If you can access it?
>
> Galina
Try this:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/87/5/1816.pdf
or
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?action=stream&blobtype=file&blobname=/[PNASPDFPath]/1990/87-05/pdf/pq001816.pdf
(both are free I think)
Ivaylo.
June R Harton
>
> Could you post Barbujani G. and Sokal R.R., Zones of sharp genetic change
in Europe are
> also linguistic
> boundaries.,Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Mar;87(5):1816-9. If you can
access it?
>
> Galina
:)
Gail, what has this to do with you an American. I have it on record
where you vehemently stated that an American should not align
themselves with any other country and here it looks like you are
trying to undermine Greeks to accommodate the West Bulgarian
majority of FYROM who are trying to steal Greek history and
heritage?
June R Harton
"ivaylo p. ivanov" <ivay...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:338e7fad.02021...@posting.google.com...
Very accommodating of you to one who it seems to me also
undermines the Bulgarians as much as Greeks.
Gail, what's the idea of calling the Fyromian forces Macedonian
you are not referring to Macedonia (northern Greece) but FYROM.
In fact, most of these genetic researches lack substance in their
conclusions and results despite appearances and deal in vast
ignorances of actual history and texts very available.
June R Harton
> you don't have to believe it but you still are what you are whether you
> believe it or not. <big G>
Mind if I use that to enlighten the West Bulgarians who are pretending
to be Macedonians who were Greeks actually?
choro-nik
heard your footsteps....
--
choro-nik
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:GBGa8.8241$Yz2.120...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...