Celtic Placenames in Turkey.
Harold
begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
Dardanelles etc.
y...@theworld.com
: There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
: begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
some of these can't be celtic.
: Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
Finns?!
: Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
: Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
: Dardanelles etc.
these are turkish:
Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
all turkic)
Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
suffix.
FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
Fener "lighthouse" < greek
Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek
Kalkan "shield"
-------
AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
Anatolian speaking people.
Trabzon is greek trapezium.
the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
"Tripoli"???)
what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
y...@theworld.com
: Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek
rather greek via arabic
y...@theworld.com
In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
: There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
: begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
some of these can't be celtic. Galatia is.
: Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
Finns?!
: Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
: Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
: Dardanelles etc.
these are turkish:
Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
all turkic)
Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
suffix.
FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
Fener "lighthouse" < greek
Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek via arabic
Yusuf B Gursey
In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
: There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
: begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
some of these can't be celtic.
: Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
Finns?!
: Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
: Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
: Dardanelles etc.
these are turkish:
Alessandro Riolo
Harold, from <johan...@planetaccess.com>,
in <news:f22f0289.0303...@posting.google.com> wrote:
> There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey
> which begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
God knows where you see any relationship between Celts and Hittites.. Are
you an hidden follower of Bossi?
--
Ale
E` in corso la CFV per per
*it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
Si puň leggere il manifesto su
_it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
Bogdan Giusca
Some Celtic tribes were living in Central and Eastern Europe 2500 years ago, so I
wouldn't exclude this idea.
M. Ranjit Mathews
> Harold wrote:
>
>>There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey
>>which begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
>
> God knows where you see any relationship between Celts and Hittites.. Are
> you an hidden follower of Bossi?
Of Varro.
Alessandro Riolo
Bogdan Giusca, from <sp...@dapyx-soft.com>,
in <news:b4qnt8$230g7m$1...@ID-151546.news.dfncis.de> wrote:
> Some Celtic tribes were living in Central and Eastern Europe
> 2500 years ago, so I wouldn't exclude this idea.
But for Galatia, where the Celts were eradicated from a certain Mitridates
more than 2 thousand years ago, all of the toponimos quoted from the poster
where completely unrelated with Celts..
--
Ale
E` in corso la CFV per per
*it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
Si può leggere il manifesto su
_it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
mb
> In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
>
> : There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> : begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
>
> some of these can't be celtic.
>
> : Ankara (anchor), Finnike,
Ankara = Ankyra (Gr, possibly Phryg. root), Finike = Foinikeia (Gr.,
same rt as Phoenix, Phoenician, etc.).
> Finns?!
Right. Martians too. Wait, Karjala (Karelia) = Kar yala, so perhaps
Finnish toponyms should be Turkish. Lots of snow up there.
> : Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
> : Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
> : Dardanelles etc.
>
> these are turkish:
>
> Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
> Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
> Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
> water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
> all turkic)
> Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
> suffix.
Cham, pine.
> FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
> Fener "lighthouse" < greek
> Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek via arabic
> Kalkan "shield"
>
> -------
>
> AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
> Anatolian speaking people.
>
> Trabzon is greek trapezium.
>
> the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
> "Tripoli"???)
Yes.
> what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
Hey, if that helps anyone feel better, why not?
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote
:>
:> some of these can't be celtic.
:>
:> : Ankara (anchor), Finnike,
: Ankara = Ankyra (Gr, possibly Phryg. root), Finike = Foinikeia (Gr.,
ankara (anqara) < `ar. 'anqira(t) < Ankyra (Ancyra)
older turkish Engu"ru" , Engu"riyye etc. partly through false etymology of
pers. angu:r (engu^r) "grape(s)"
: same rt as Phoenix, Phoenician, etc.).
then greek < semitic or AA
:> Finns?!
:> these are turkish:
:>
:> Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
:> Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
:> Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
:> water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
i.e. i.e. do*ng*uzlu is now pronounced domuzlu though not the name of the
city!
in Latin originally "Laodiceia ad Lycum", the turks called it first Ladiq
(Ladik - there are other towns of the same name) it became Do*ng*uzlu
during the late 13th cent. - a period of mongol dominance in antolian
turkish affairs and a fresh influx of only superficially muslim turkmens
(tribal turks).
it became Den~izli in the 17th cent. or so, a period of islamic scrupples.
:> all turkic)
:> Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
:> suffix.
: Cham, pine.
Oh, C,ameli c,am "pine" (for c,am ag~acI pine ("wax") tree) < `ar. *sh*am3
"wax" (non-literary borrowing).
:> FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
:> Fener "lighthouse" < greek
:> Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek via arabic
:> Kalkan "shield"
:>
:> -------
:>
:> AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
:> Anatolian speaking people.
:>
:> Trabzon is greek trapezium.
:>
:> the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
:> "Tripoli"???)
: Yes.
there were sure a lot of them!
:> what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
Ken Down
johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
> There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
> Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water)
Highly unlikely. The name incorporates the Turkish/Arabic "sehir", which
means "city".
Ken Down
--
__ __ __ __ __
| \ | / __ / __ | |\ | / __ |__ All the latest archaeological news
|__/ | \__/ \__/ | | \| \__/ __| from the Middle East with David Down
================================= and "Digging Up The Past"
Web site: www.argonet.co.uk/education/diggings
e-mail: digg...@argonet.co.uk
mb
> : same rt as Phoenix, Phoenician, etc.).
>
> then greek < semitic or AA
I think the jury is still out on that. On the Greek side, all that
Andriotis and Babiniotis report as Sem. origin is that the P. called
themselves KinaHni or some such thing. There is a (pre-?)Hell.
"phoinix", originally "not white, dark", later "red, reddish", that
gave name to a fruit - and some speculation re its being applied to
tanned complexions.
...
> i.e. i.e. do*ng*uzlu is now pronounced domuzlu though not the name of the
> city!
May be returning. That's what a friend of mine called it many years
ago (without any knowledge of the previous name) after a spell of
military service there!
> it became Den~izli in the 17th cent. or so, a period of islamic scrupples.
Brace yourself for the next batch. "Kahraman" Mara$ and "$anlI" Urfa
are to be declared ur-Celtic, too.
However, he might have a point in that the toponymics of Galatia (and
not only)are not all transparent, and the attributions to Phrygian,
Carian etc. often look like uninvestigated guesses (as in the recent
Lycaonian discussion). Reviewing the gazetteer for possible Celtic
influence wouldn't be a bad idea.
mb
...
> But for Galatia, where the Celts were eradicated from a certain Mitridates
> more than 2 thousand years ago, all of the toponimos quoted from the poster
> where completely unrelated with Celts..
Less "eradicated" than smallpox. A Celtic dialect was still spoken in
the first century AD. Reported by no less than the Pope himself (ok,
not Pope, St. Paul).
vj...@biostrategist.com
The Galatians of the Bible were Celts according to the Eleftheruthaky
Desk Encyclopedia (Encyclopedic Dictionary) published ca 1972 in Athens.
- = -
Vasos-Peter John Panagiotopoulos II, Columbia'81+, Bio$trategist
BachMozart ReaganQuayle EvrytanoKastorian
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Clinton Econ Bubble Burst 8mo before Bush Jr was Prez]
Aemon
wrote:
I could quite believe that there are place names of Celtic origin in
Turkey but you, Harold, in your over eagerness to prove your assertion
are committing basic linguistic and logical errors.
I'm fairly sure that Galatia is a name of ultimately Celtic origin but
Ankara....I doubt that very very much.
Nik
Aemon
>In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
<cut>
>what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
He wants them to be, for some strange emotional reason that he's not
letting on.
Nik
Alessandro Riolo
vj...@biostrategist.com, from <vj...@biostrategist.com>,
in <news:b4s0du$fsg$1...@reader2.panix.com> wrote:
> The Galatians of the Bible were Celts according to..
The Galati were surely Celts according everyone I have read..
REAL
Aemon wrote:
http://www.ancienttimes.net/cgi-ancienttimes/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=47&topic=4
Post Title: Origins of Ankara
Post Description: from Kruta
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ankara, the capital of modern Turkey, was known as Ancyra to the Hellenes
and Galatians.
Legend had it that the city was founded by King Midas and that it was a
Phrygian city long before the Celtic invaders came to Asia Minor.
But Ancyra became a chief city of one of Galatian nations, the Tectosages,
as mentioned in an earlier post by Somatophylax. It was later the biggest
city in Galatia. Thus the Celtic invaders may have been the real founders
of Turkey's present-day capital.
REAL
Alessandro Riolo wrote:
> Bogdan Giusca, from <sp...@dapyx-soft.com>,
> in <news:b4qnt8$230g7m$1...@ID-151546.news.dfncis.de> wrote:
>
> > Some Celtic tribes were living in Central and Eastern Europe
> > 2500 years ago, so I wouldn't exclude this idea.
>
> But for Galatia, where the Celts were eradicated from a certain Mitridates
> more than 2 thousand years ago, all of the toponimos quoted from the poster
> where completely unrelated with Celts..
Mithridates had nothing to do with the erradication of the Celts. It was the
Romans who eventually displaced the Celts in Asia Minor. You really need to
educate yourself on these matters if you are to speak of them.
THE CELTS IN ASIA MINOR
by John Patrick Parle
http://www.echoedvoices.org/Jun2002/Celts_in_Asia_Minor.html
NUMISMATIC SITES OF THE ANCIENT GREEK WORLD
http://www.toddmiller.com/maps/sites.html
THE HISTORICAL GEOGRAPHY OF ASIA MINOR
http://webminister.com/ramsay/rhg00c.shtml
GREEK COINS OF ASIA MINOR
http://www.attalos.com/cgi-bin/feature?class=Coins+%26gt%3B+Greek+Coins+%26gt%3B+Asia+Minor
Sajo Markecz
"Alessandro Riolo" <alessand...@sen.it> wrote in message
news:zohca.80153$zo2.2...@news2.tin.it...
>
> vj...@biostrategist.com, from <vj...@biostrategist.com>,
> in <news:b4s0du$fsg$1...@reader2.panix.com> wrote:
>
> > The Galatians of the Bible were Celts according to..
>
> The Galati were surely Celts according everyone I have read..
>
> --
> Ale
> E` in corso la CFV per per
> *it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
> _it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
>
The ancestry of the English people are not quite as clear cut as most people
, with the exceptions of a few relatively contemporary archaeologists ,
anthropologists , geneticists , historians , and linguists , assume it to be
. Most people seem to think that the English are mostly of Germanic Anglian
, Saxon , Jutish , and Scandinavian ancestry . From 1940 , when the Nazi
Germans bombed Britain in the Battle of Britain and the Blitzkrieg , this
has understandably caused a great deal of embarrassment to the descendants
of English - speaking people living in Britain , Ireland , and the former
British colonies , including Canada , the U.S.A , Australia , and New
Zealand . Even after the American colonies , with the exception of the
Canadian ones , declared their independence in 1783 , English , Welsh ,
Scottish , and Irish immigrants continued to arrive in large numbers in the
U.S.A. in the years after 1783 , as they still do in current times . The
genetic , linguistic , and archaeological fact of the matter is that the
English are of mixed Germanic , Celtic , Roman , and Iberian stock since
ancient times . In 1997 in the West Midlands of England a male adult
skeleton dating from around 3000 B.C. was found , and subsequent D.N.A.
tests found a direct adult male descendant of the dead man living either 30
kilometers or 30 miles away in a town where he was either a teacher or the
head master at a local high school . This means that he has Iberian , Celtic
, Roman , and Germanic ancestry , as the Celts did not arrive in the two
post - Ice Age continental European islands of Britain and Ireland until
2000 B.C. onwards . The pre - Norman Conquest Old English language shows in
its surviving manuscripts and inscriptions many Germanic words influenced by
the Celtic Briton and Latin languages in terms of prefixes , suffixes ,
inflections , pronunciation , accent , syntax , spelling , and loan words ,
when compared with the various dialects of the continental Germans .
The reason why the former Roman colonies in Wales , Cornwall , and southern
Lowland Scotland remained largely Celtic rather than Latin speaking , unlike
the formerly Celtic Roman province of Transalpine Gaul now known as France
and Belgium , was because Wales and Cornwall were part of the far flung
frontier provinces of the Roman Empire which attracted relatively few
permanent Latin - speaking colonists , and Britain after all has been a
continental European island since the gradual melting of the last Ice Age
raised world sea levels . Cisalpine Gaul was located where what is now the
northern Italian plain of the Po River Valley , the region of Italy called
Lombardy . Cisalpine Gaul was invaded and settled in the 300's B.C. by the
Celts , followed by the Germanic Visigoths , Ostrogoths , Heruls , Sciri ,
and Gepidae in the 400's A.D. , and then by the Germanic Lombards in the
late 500's and early 600's A.D. The isolated nature of Ireland from Britain
, and even more from continental Europe , explains why remnants of Celtic
paganism in the form of superstitious beliefs in banshees , leprechauns ,
halloween , mistletoe , kelpies , and four - leaf clovers persisted among
the ordinary Irish peasantry side by side with Roman Catholic Christianity
for such a long time . Even by 407 A.D. , when the last Roman field troops
left Wales , Cornwall , southern Lowland Scotland and England , there were
still many poor peasant farmers and first - generation urban slum immigrants
of peasant background who believed in both Celtic and Greco - Roman paganism
, and who spoke Celtic dialects as their first language , for example the
semi - legendary Druid priest called Merlin , although Christians by this
time formed a sizeable proportion of the Romano - British middle and upper
classes , most of whom were fluent in both Celtic dialects and Latin .
Armorica or Brittany in northwest France turned out to be a Celtic enclave
because that part of Gaul has thin , rocky soils , and because many Celtic
refugees from Briton sought refuge there after the Germanic seaborne
invasions of Britain after 407 A.D. With the Roman field armies of Britain
gone , central authority soon collapsed as there was no more means to
enforce it , and the Romano - British Celtic tribes soon reverted to the
tribal civil warfare that had existed before the Roman conquest of Britain ,
making them thereby an easier prey for the Anglian , Saxon , Jutish , and
Frisian invaders . However , the Germanic conquest of post - Roman Britain
was held up for a while by certain Romano - Celtic British warlord
chieftains called Ambrosius Aurelianus , who may have been the real King
Arthur , and by Riothamus or Riothamnus , who may have been the real
Lancelot , in around 500 A.D. , although after their deaths the Celtic
tribes once more reverted to civil clan warfare , and the common resistance
offered to the Anglo - Saxon Germanic invaders subsequently collapsed . The
Germanic Frankish , Burgundian , Visigothic , and Ostrogothic peoples who
invaded France or Gaul after the Romans had exhausted themselves in imperial
dynastic civil wars that lasted from 383 - 388 , 392 - 394 , 406 - 432 A.D.
, and after the Gaulish Baugadae or vagabond peasant revolt of 435 - 437
A.D. , found it more valuable to learn Latin then Celtic , unlike their
fellow Germanic brethren who invaded Britain by sea . The Germanic invaders
of Gaul could invade in larger numbers by horseback on land , than the
Germanic invaders of Britain could do by sea , as they had no sea barrier
like the Strait of Dover , the English Channel , and the North Sea to cross
.
The reason why Romania in the Balkans , once part of the former Roman
province of Dacia [ 106 - 271 A.D. ] turned out to be a Latin enclave
surrounded by Slavic - speaking and Hungarian or Magyar - speaking peoples ,
was because the Roman province yielded valuable gold and silver mines for
the Roman colonists , although towards the end of the Roman rule of Dacia ,
the gold and silver mines were mainly exhausted , since the ancient deep -
shaft mining techniques were not as advanced as today . During the times of
various foreign invasions from other quarters that were to follow after 271
A.D. , when the Roman imperial authorities withdrew their last field troops
and civil servants from the province of Dacia , the Romanized and Latinized
Dacians were often able to retreat for safety into the many forested
mountains and hills of Romania , and with the less advanced farming and
transport techniques of the ancient world as compared with that of today ,
the forests of ancient Roman Europe covered a far larger area . Before the
Roman conquest , the Dacians spoke an Indo - European language related to
the Ilyrian-Thracian-Phrygian branch , of which only the Albanian dialect
remains today as a living language . The rest of the Balkan Albanians
sexually intermingled , ethnically mixed , or miscegenated , and culturally
and linguistically assimilated with the Slavic tribes that invaded the
Balkan peninsula in around 570 - 650 A.D. , followed by the Hungarians or
Magyar invaders in around 890 - 955 A.D. The Croats , Serbs , and the
ethnically Serbian akin Montenegrins , Slovenes , and Northern Slavic
Bulgarian - speaking Macedonians , as opposed to the Southern Greek -
speaking Macedonians , of whom Alexander the Great was a member , arrived in
the Balkans as ethnically and politically distinct but distantly related
Slavic - speaking tribespeople . The Slavs of Bulgaria , who arrived in the
region during the late 500's A.D. , were conquered in the early 600's A.D.
by the less numerous Turkic - speaking people called the Bulgars , a fierce
and well organised group of semi - nomadic warrior horsemen and herders .
However , although the Scandinavians basically speak the same Germanic
language and are nearly all Lutherans , they still form the separate
nation - states of Sweden , Norway , and Denmark right to this day . The
so - called "Yugoslavs" or Southern Slavs are not all members of the same
Christian denomination , and the differences in dialect are greater among
them then among that of the Scandinavians . The reason why the Slavic -
speaking Bosnians and Illyrian - speaking Albanians are mostly Muslim today
is because their ancestors were members of the Eastern Orthodox heretical
sect called the Bogomils , whose beliefs had many things in common with
those of the heretical Roman Catholic sects called the Patarenes and Cathars
or Albigensians of northern Italy , Switzerland , and southern France , and
who often found it politically and economically expedient to convert to
Islam during the Ottoman Turkish Conquest of the Balkans after the Greek -
speaking Byzantine capital of Constantinople fell in 1453 . The western
three - fifths of Bosnia - Hercegovina was part of The Kingdom of Croatia
that lasted from 925 - 1102 A.D. , while the eastern two - fifths of
Bosnia - Hercegovina was part of Serbia . During the Second World War the
ultra - nationalist and pro - Royalist Serbs known as the Chetniks and
Zborists [ after Zbor , a Serbian fascist political party of the early
1940's ] , often collaborated with the Germans and Italians against the
Communist - led pan - Yugoslav or Southern Slav Partisan resistance group ,
as did also the Croatian ultra - nationalist group known as the Ustasha .
Before the rise of the 1800's and 1900's nation - state , ethnic divisions
were less rigid , providing a greater deal of two - way mutual intermarriage
, concubinage , and cultural borrowing then today , although as many semi -
nomadic , tribal hunter - gatherer societies that remain today and of the
relatively recent past show , tribal and ethnic loyalty can command strong
allegiances and feelings of group and territorial solidarity .
Even the people living within the borders of the modern day nation state of
Germany are not ethnically homogenous by ethnic ancestry , since the German
colonists who followed in the wake of the crusading order of knights called
the Teutonic Knights , accompanied by Christian missionaries of the
Cistercian order from 1150 A.D. onwards , ethnically mixed , intermarried ,
concubined , sexually intercoursed , and raped with the Slavic ethnic groups
known as the Wends , Pomeranians , Abodrites , and Sorbs [ Serbs ] , and the
Baltic Indo - European people called the Prussians , Lithuanians , and
Latvians who lived east of the Elbe and Saale Rivers . These people were
mostly pagans or polytheists , with the exception of the Roman Catholic
Slavic Poles , but were gradually converted to Christianity by force , and
soon became culturally assimilated with the German invaders , often adopting
the German language and customs over many generations , and losing or
heavily diluting their own in the process . South of the Main River and west
of the Rhine River lived many Celtic tribes who subsequently became first
Latinized by Roman invaders , and then by Germanic invaders . The Romans in
the early years of the Empire made several attempts to conquer the Germanic
lands as far as the Elbe River , but by the time that the Romans were ready
to conquer what is today part of the modern day nation - state of Germany ,
the Roman armies were already overstretched in maintaining their
geographically vast and ethnically diverse empire .
Moreover , the Romans suffered a severe setback when the legions under the
command of the Roman general Quinctilius Varus were ambushed in several
guerrilla - style attrition attacks in the heavily forested and mountainous
Teutoburger Wald in A.D. 9 by the warriors of the Germanic chieftain called
Arminius , a former pro - Roman mercenary soldier . This defeat for the
Romans was soon enough avenged by the Roman armies led by the Roman general
called Germanicus Caesar who led a campaign into the lands of the Germanic
tribes living east of the Rhine River from 14 - 17 A.D. , inflicting several
defeats on the Germans , including wounding Arminius and recapturing the
stolen legionary colours of Varus in 16 A.D. However , Germanicus Caesar was
hampered by the loss of two Roman reinforcement transport fleets in North
Sea storms , and the then undrained and uncleared swamps , marshes , bogs ,
lakes , and forests of the North German Plain . Moreover , the Roman Emperor
Tiberius [ r. 14 - 37 A.D. ] was jealous and fearful of the success of
Germanicus Caesar , and ordered the abandonment of efforts to conquer the
Germanic lands as far east as the Elbe River , or maybe even further east to
the Oder - Western Niesse Rivers , to be distinguished from the Eastern
Neisse River . The Oder - Western Neisse River is the internationally
recognised border that exists between Poland and Germany today .
The reason why the Swedish Vikings were able to conquer the large Slavic -
speaking lands of the Russians , Belorussians , and Ukrainians was because
these Slavic peoples were disunited , forming mutually antagonistic tribes
who more or less constantly fought each other , and the Swedish Vikings took
advantage of this , recruiting into both their army rank and file , and
their officer or warlord - corps , Slavs in large numbers in order to fight
rival Slavic tribes , thereby subduing the individual Slavic tribes one by
one .The majority of the ordinary rank and file soldiers , as well as the
commanders , of Swedish - led Viking armies of Russia , were of Slavic
origin , and there were many offspring as the result of intermarriage ,
concubinage , polygamy , casual sexual relations , and rape between Swedish
males and Russian women . The many long rivers and lakes of Russia formed a
network of inland water routes that connected the Baltic Sea with the Black
Sea and the landlocked Caspian Sea , the latter really being a large salt
lake once connected in prehistoric times to the Seven Seas , and this formed
a natural " highway " for the Swedish Viking long ships , with many
relatively safe ports of call at fortified trading towns located at various
points on the watery network , and these forts provided some sort of unified
system of defense for both the Swedes and the Slavs against the marauding
tribes of Bashkir or Hungarian/Magyar and Turkic Bulgar , Petcheneg , and
Cuman semi - nomadic warrior horsemen and herders .
The Romans as they conquered their provinces recruited from among the
conquered people soldiers , and eventually officers , for both the Roman
legions and their usually trustworthy allied auxiliary forces , so that by
100 A.D. only about 20 % of the Roman soldiers came from the Italian
peninsula , and this rate fell to about 10 % by 200 A.D. Under the reign of
the Emperor Septimius Severus [ r. 193 - 211 A.D. ] , the Emperor's private
bodyguard called the Praetorians were opened up for the first time to
provincials , as previously only Italian - born Roman citizens were allowed
to join the Praetorian Guard . In 212 A.D. , the Roman Emperor Caracalla [
r. 211 - 217 A.D. ] , granted citizenship to all the free born subjects of
the Roman Empire , although many of the free subjects were actually tenant
or serf farmers and guild apprentices , thereby making these citizens liable
to pay taxes to the Imperial treasury , a case of " no representation
without taxation ." The non - free inhabitants of the Roman Empire were
slaves , as opposed to bonded tenant farmers or serfs and guild apprentices
, as opposed to journeymen and guild masters or workshop - owners . The main
reasons why the Western or Latin half of the Roman Empire fell can be summed
up as one of abandonment for the Eastern or Greek - speaking Byzantine half
of the Roman Empire , tax evasion , and draft dodging , and imperial
dynastic civil warfare at the same time as large scale and multiple
Barbarian invasions were occurring . From 383 - 388 A.D. , 392 - 394 A.D. ,
and 406 - 432 A.D. the Roman field armies wasted themselves in recurrent
imperial dynastic civil wars , made worse by the invasions of the Roman
provinces by such Germanic ethnic groups as the Visigoths , Ostrogoths ,
Burgundians , Franks , Vandals , Lombards , Sueves , Heruls , Sciri ,
Gepidae , Frisians , Jutes , Angles , and Saxons , the Celtic Scots of
northern Ireland and the Picts of Scotland , the Persian Iranians and their
cousins the Sarmatians ,the Turkic Alans , and the Berber Moors and Blemmyes
. Many of the Germanic ethnic groups were themselves fleeing the semi -
nomadic warrior horsemen and herders called the Huns , a Mongolian ethnic
group .
During the years after 250 A.D. , the Roman senatorial aristocracy of the
Western half of the Roman Empire acquired large landed estates and fortified
rural mansions and castles called villas , protected by armed retainers or
private bodyguards . With these fortified homes and private bodyguards , the
Roman senators could afford to chase off imperial tax collectors sent to
collect money for soldier's wages , and also imperial army recruitment
officers who wished to draw away some of their tenant farmers for a period
of military service that was supposed to last for 25 years . This tax and
draft evasion meant that the Roman Army recruiting officers were forced
increasingly to hire the services of the least Romanised ethnic groups
living within the Roman Empire , and the various ethnic groups living
outside the imperial frontiers . By the late 300's and early 400's A.D. ,
many people of Germanic ancestry not only formed the membership of the rank
and file of the Roman army , but even numbered among the officers of the
army , for example Merobaudes , Arbogast , Gainas , and Stilicho . The poor
pay of the Roman soldiers in the latter years of the Empire meant that they
were often attracted into supporting rival contenders for the throne in
imperial dynastic civil wars who promised them wage increases and war
plunder , and the survivors of the losing side in a battle often mutinied
and formed bands of deserters who terrorized and plundered the countryside ,
robbing rich , poor , and those somewhere in between alike as the
opportunity arose . During the great peasant revolt of the Bagaudae or
Vagabonds that broke out in Gaul from 435 - 437 A.D. , largely in protest
against the heavy rents exacted from them by their senatorial landlords and
their private armies , many deserting Roman legionaries joined the peasants
. The peasant revolt in Gaul was crushed by a mercenary army of Huns ,
called in by the West Roman imperial authorities . The bankruptcy of the
imperial treasury became more apparent when during the reign of the West
Roman Emperor Gratian from 367 - 383 A.D. , heavy body armour in the form of
overlapping metal plates or scales sewn into leather tunics , chain - link
mail armour , metal helmets , and oblong shields ceased to be issued to the
ordinary rank and file Roman legionary . They were still issued with pikes ,
lances , long - swords , round shields , and archery equipment though . Many
Roman army recruiting masters kept false muster rolls of non - existent ,
deserted , and killed soldiers , thereby pocketing their wages for
themselves .
The reason why the Roman Emperor Constantine decided to move the capital of
the Roman Empire from Rome to Byzantium , renamed Constantinople [ Greek for
" Constantine's City ," ] in 330 A.D. , were partly economic and strategic
in motivation . The Roman Emperor Constantine [ r. 306 -337 A.D. ] , was the
first Roman Emperor to grant religious toleration to the Christians , after
having suffered periodically for centuries persecution at the hands of the
pagans or polytheists . The eastern or officially Greek - speaking half of
the Roman Empire , which came to be known as the Byzantine Empire , had
larger , more prosperous , and more numerous cities and towns then the
officially Latin - speaking Western half of the Roman Empire , and therefore
a more easily extracted source for taxation revenue , from which soldiers
and mercenaries could be paid at a decent level . Also , the strategic and
economically valuable site of Byzantium , now renamed Constantinople , was
more easily defended with its strong fortifications which controlled trade
routes on both a North to South and East to West Axis . The Roman Empire was
officially divided into a Western and Eastern half in 395 A.D. , with the
last West Roman Emperor overthrown in 476 A.D. , and the last East Roman or
Byzantine Roman Emperor overthrown in 1453 A.D. The conquering Muslim
Ottoman Turks called Constantinople Istanbul , which is the Turkish
pronunciation and spelling for the name Constantinople .
The various branches of the Indo - European speaking family came originally
as semi - nomadic warrior horsemen and herders from the steppes and prairies
of the lands north of the Black and Caspian seas , from where they conquered
the other lands of Europe , the Middle East , and India from around 2500
B.C. onwards , gradually mixing with the previous inhabitants of those lands
, with the conquered people usually reduced to the status of slaves and
serfs . The remnants of the non - Indo - European speaking peoples include
such ethnic and linguistic groups as the Guanches of the Canary Islands
archipelago , the Basques of the Pyrenees , the Berbers or Hamites of the
Atlas Mountain ranges of North - West Africa and the oases of the Sahara
desert , and the Berbers are distant cousins of the Arabs , the Picts of the
Scottish Higlands , the Iberians of pre - 900 B.C. Spain and Portugal , the
Arabs , the Sumerians , the Georgians of the Caucasus Mountain range that
separates Turkey from Georgia , Armenia , and Azerbaijan , the Lapps , Finns
, Estonians , Hungarians , and Turks , the Burushaski of the Hunza Valley of
Pakistan , the Dravidians of the Punjab and of central and southern India ,
the Elamites of Iran before the coming of the Iranians in around 1500 B.C.
onwards , the Ligurians and Elymians of pre - 1000 B.C. Italy and Sicily ,
the Pelasgoi and Eteo - Cretans of pre - 2000 B.C. Greece and Crete , the
Lydians , of whom the Etruscans traced their ancestry from , Mysians ,
Carians , Pamphylians and Cappadocians of what is now the Turkish or
Anatolian peninsula before the conquests of Alexander the Great , and the
Ainu of Hokkaido , Sakhalin , the Pacific provinces of Russian Siberia , the
Kurile Islands , and the Kamchatka Peninsula . The members of the Indo -
European linguistic family include the Germans , Slavs , Celts , Latins ,
Greeks , Albanians , Armenians , and the Indo - Iranians or Sanskrit Aryans
, the latter branch including the Baltic Old Prussians , Lithuanians , and
Latvians as well as the Iranians or Sankrit people of Iran , Afghanistan ,
Pakistan , and northern India . The word Aryan comes from the Sanskrit word
" Arya , " which means " nobles , " or " owners of land . " When the Indo -
European speaking Iranians invaded and conquered from 1500 B.C. onwards the
lands of what today make the nation - states of Iran , Pakistan ,
Afghanistan , and India , they usually intermarried with the natives or
earlier invaders , usually in the form of a master - slave relationship ,
where the conquered native women usually became the concubines of their
harem - keeping slave master . The offspring of such relationships usually
themselves became slaves , as the Colored or mixed - race/miscegenated
people of Apartheid South Africa . In India , such so - called " half castes
" formed the " Sudra " or " Labourer " caste , as opposed to the " Dasa ,"
or " black " caste , that is , the racially unmixed but enslaved dark -
brown skinned Dravidian peoples of India . The words " Sudra " and " Dasa "
belong to the Sanskrit branch of the Indo - European speaking people , as
opposed to the non - Indo - European speaking Dravidian people . It is
interesting to note that as a percentage of the total number of dark - brown
skinned , Bantu - speaking African slaves transported to North , Central ,
and South America , the U.S.A. in British colonial and post - colonial times
received about 5 % of the total number , explaining why there is greater
intermarriage between whites and blacks in Latin America , where the
advanced and highly populated slave and serf - owning agricultural and urban
civilizations of the Aztec , Maya , and Inca were also located .
The Sahara , Arabian , and Central Asian deserts during the early and middle
stages of Inter - Glacial periods between major Ice Ages has been a tropical
savanna grassland and light scrub land and light woodland , with lakes ,
swamps , and rivers and large animal herds . This far more fertile then
present Sahara existed from 128,000 - 113,000 B.C. , 26,000 - 20,000 B.C. ,
and 8000 - 4000 B.C. During the dry desert intervals , the Berbers of North
Africa and the Arabs of the Middle East , both of whom are distant cousins
to each other , retreated to the desert oases and the Mediterranean forests
of the Atlas Mountains of what is now part of northern Morocco , Algeria ,
and Tunisia , and the Mediterranean forests of the coastal mountains , hills
, and plains of what is now part of Syria , Lebanon , Israel , and Palestine
. These forests have been mostly removed by centuries of overgrazing ,
overcultivation , and deforestation which has resulted in serious erosion .
At the height of the last Ice Age , in around 17,000 B.C. , when
temperatures were at their coldest , the Atlas Mountains and the Lebanon
Mountains had increased rainfall and higher levels of snowfall then today ,
with the highest peaks even having minor glaciers . Even today , the highest
peaks of the Atlas and Lebanon mountains have light to moderate winter snow
fall . During the height of the last Ice Age , when sea levels were 130
meters lower than today , before the gradual melting of the ice sheets and
glaciers gradually raised sea levels again to their current position , a
near land bridge existed in what is now the Strait of Gibraltar that
separates Morocco from Spain , as well as the sea between Sicily and Tunisia
, and there were complete land bridges where the Strait of Dover separates
France from England , where the Irish Sea separates Ireland from Britain ,
the Strait of Messina separates Sicily from Italy , the now shallow waters
of the northern Adriatic Sea , formerly an Ice Age plain , and the Straits
of Bosphorus [ Byzantium , Constantinople , or Istanbul ] and the Hellespont
[ the Dardanelles or Gallipoli and the Troad ] , separate Thracian or
European Turkey from Anatolian or Asian Turkey . Using these land bridges
and ancient wooden and reed rafts and the wooden frame , animal hide covered
boats , human populations travelled both to and from Europe , Asia , and
Africa , as did also the Melanesians and Negritos of South East Asia who
arrived by means of island hopping in New Guinea , Australia , and Tasmania
, which then formed one single continent during the Ice Age , and thereby
became the ancestors of the Australian Aborigines , and as the Mongoloid
Asians and Ainu crossed the prehistoric Ice Age land bridge called Beringia
that used to connect Siberia and North America , thereby becoming the
ancestors of the American Indians or Amerindians and their cousins the
Eskimos or Inuit . The reason why the Australian Aboriginal people of King
and Flinders Island , located in what is today Bass Strait , a stretch of
water that separates the Australian mainland from the island and Australian
state called Tasmania , became extinct when the sea levels gradually rose
after the gradual melting away of the Ice Age , and thereby cutting off the
Bassian Plain land bridge that used to connect Australia and Tasmania , was
because the islands were too small in area to sustain a semi - nomadic
tribal population of hunter - gatherers , not having enough animal and plant
life to sustain for the long - term a hunter - gatherer population . Also ,
there was a severe period of drought on King and Flinders island from 4000 -
2000 B.C. , and even to this day fresh water is hard to find on these
islands during summer . When the Europeans visited these islands for the
first time for themselves in the late 1700's and early 1800's , they found
them to be uninhabited of humans .
Heinrich Himmler , the leader of the Nazi Gestapo , once ridiculously tried
to prove that the Japanese are undercover Aryans , because they racially
mixed with the Ainu , who had some Caucasian physical features before they
extensively mixed with the Japanese , even though the Ainu language does not
belong to the Indo - European linguistic family , and because the Japanese
made the martial art of Judo a required subject in their schools in 1909 , a
subject that was banned in Japanese schools from 1945 - 1950 , being
reintroduced as a compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1950 onwards .
Judo traces its origins from the samurai martial art of Jujitsu . Judo and
Jujitsu is still a required part of the training of the members of the
Japanese armed forces and the police , although 3 years of compulsory
military service in the Japanese armed forces was abolished after 1945 ,
service now being on an entirely voluntary basis . The three techniques of
judo are nagewaza [ throwing ] , katamewaza [ wrestling ] , and atemiwaza
[ striking with both the arms and legs ] . The atemiwaza techniques may only
be taught to judokas above the rank of white belt , and may only be used by
them in training and self - defence , but never in judo sporting contests .
The Katamewaza techniques may only be taught to judokas from early
adolescence upwards . During the Second World War , when low on bullets and
food , the Japanese soldiers often launched a banzai bayonet charge and
judo - atemiwaza attack . The ancient Spartans had a martial art called
Pankration or Pancratium , which was a combination of wrestling , boxing ,
kicking , and throwing , and Pankration was made a required subject for the
soldiers of the Greek - speaking southern Macedonian armies of King Phillip
and his son Alexander the Great . The Japanese language is actually part of
the Altaic linguistic family that also includes Korean , Manchurian , Tungus
, Inner Mongolian [ now a province of China ] , and Outer Mongolian [
militarily occupied by Russia from 1916 - 1991 ] . There is also a Malaysian
linguistic substratum to the Japanese language , as there is also in other
parts of southern China and South - East Asia , the Malaysian people living
there having been assimilated by conquering tribes that came from southern
China , from where the Malaysian people themselves once came from .
Sajo Markecz
Sajo Markecz
"Ken Down" <digg...@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:na.94b4574bd2....@argonet.co.uk...
The ancestry of the English people are not quite as clear cut as most people
Sajo Markecz
"Bogdan Giusca" <sp...@dapyx-soft.com> wrote in message
news:b4qnt8$230g7m$1...@ID-151546.news.dfncis.de...
The ancestry of the English people are not quite as clear cut as most people
Sajo Markecz
<y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:b4qj8q$qiv$1...@pcls4.std.com...
Alessandro Riolo
> in <news:zohca.80153$zo2.2...@news2.tin.it> wrote:
>> The Galati were surely Celts according everyone I have read..
Sajo Markecz, from <zilm...@iprimus.com.au>,
in <news:3e71d...@news.iprimus.com.au> replied:
> The ancestry of the English people are not ..
What this textbook has to do with the ancestry of Galati?
--
Ale
E` in corso la CFV per per
*it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
Si può leggere il manifesto su
_it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
Des Small
Do you take corpus submissions from regurgiposting loonies using a
punctuation system that not even the French could love?
"Sajo Markecz" <zilm...@iprimus.com.au> writes:
> The ancestry of the English people are not quite as clear cut as
> most people , with the exceptions of a few relatively contemporary
> archaeologists , anthropologists , geneticists , historians , and
> linguists , assume it to be .
Structures like "The ancestry of the English people are," _do_ occur
in contemporary British English, though; I'll keep my eyes (and ears)
open for a more convincing example. The use of plural verb forms for
collective entities seems to have weakened the concept of agreement
enough that this left-most-noun proxying gets through the filters.
But in any case all the French periodicals I read (which is _le Nouvel
obs._ and _Point de Vue_ but never mind) insist on discussing
translations from "l'americaine", so us counter-colonials are clearly
of no account in the cosmic scheme of things.
[mercy snipping]
> The Japanese language is actually part of the Altaic linguistic
> family that also includes Korean , Manchurian , Tungus , Inner
> Mongolian [ now a province of China ] , and Outer Mongolian [
> militarily occupied by Russia from 1916 - 1991 ] .
But Inger's dog ate his incontroverticle proof, how sad.
Des
--
Des Small / Scientific Programmer/ School of Mathematics / University
of Bristol / University Walk / Bristol BS8 1TW / United Kingdom / Word
falling / Image falling
Harlan Messinger
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over and over?
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Alessandro Riolo
REAL, from <nospam...@hotmail.com>,
in <news:3E71CD99...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mithridates had nothing to do with the erradication of the Celts.
> It was the Romans who eventually displaced the Celts in Asia Minor.
> You really need to educate yourself on these matters if you are to
> speak of them.
Wow Real, you surprised me, at last you showed me you are able to write 3-4
lines yourself :-)
You see, having an *opinion* and writing about that is not that hard :-p
Anyway this not educated Italian guy was referring to the episode yours John
Patrick Parle reports so:
"In 88 B.C., King Mithridates IV of Pontus revolted against Rome. At the
same time, he invited sixty Galatian chiefs to a meeting in Pergamum, and in
an act of extreme ruthlessness had them all executed, with only three
escaping."
This episode sign the definitive end of the political power of the Celtic
tribes in Anatolia, despite any Deiotarides.
--
Ale
E` in corso la CFV per per
*it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
Si puo leggere il manifesto su
_it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
robert merritt
portions of northern Turkey that were invaded by migrating Celtic tribes
,who settled in for the long haul. It is not surprising that some vestiges
of place names would remain. They did not however bring any thistles or
blarney stones with them, so a connection with anything Scottish or Irish
will be hard to prove ....lol.
Robert M.
Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote in message
news:f22f0289.0303...@posting.google.com...
> There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
>
> Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
gerald.copp
"robert merritt" <rcme...@nb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:fVrca.23361$0W6.9...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge presented here. Considering that large
> portions of northern Turkey that were invaded by migrating Celtic tribes
> ,who settled in for the long haul. It is not surprising that some vestiges
> of place names would remain. They did not however bring any thistles or
> blarney stones with them, so a connection with anything Scottish or Irish
> will be hard to prove ....lol.
Nah - they were all from Cardiff!
Alessandro Riolo
robert merritt, from <rcme...@nb.sympatico.ca>,
in <news:fVrca.23361$0W6.9...@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
> I'm amazed at the lack of knowledge presented here.
In your post? Yes, of course..
> Considering that large portions of northern Turkey that were
> invaded by migrating Celtic tribes, who settled in for the long
> haul.
I would say some little Celtic tribes dwelt in a small portion of central
Anatolia, where amazingly they managed to survive as an indipendent
political entity for more than 2 centuries.
> It is not surprising that some vestiges of place names would remain.
Maybe, but not the ones quoted from the starter of this thread, bot for
Galatia.
--
Ale
E` in corso la CFV per per
*it.comp.programmare.dotnet*,
Si può leggere il manifesto su
_it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
REAL
Alessandro Riolo wrote:
> REAL, from <nospam...@hotmail.com>,
> in <news:3E71CD99...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mithridates had nothing to do with the erradication of the Celts.
> > It was the Romans who eventually displaced the Celts in Asia Minor.
> > You really need to educate yourself on these matters if you are to
> > speak of them.
>
> Wow Real, you surprised me, at last you showed me you are able to write 3-4
> lines yourself :-)
> You see, having an *opinion* and writing about that is not that hard :-p
I have expressed my arguments many times if you had cared to read. I also back
up what I say with proof at all times possible. More often than not the content
of the post provides the answer without the need for myself to intervene.
> Anyway this not educated Italian guy was referring to the episode yours John
> Patrick Parle reports so:
>
> "In 88 B.C., King Mithridates IV of Pontus revolted against Rome. At the
> same time, he invited sixty Galatian chiefs to a meeting in Pergamum, and in
> an act of extreme ruthlessness had them all executed, with only three
> escaping."
However, you had said:
"> But for Galatia, where the Celts were e
> more than 2 thousand years ago, all of the toponimos quoted from the poster
> where completely unrelated with Celts..
The Celts though were clearly not "eradicated from a certain Mitridates".. the
execution of 60 Galatian cheifs clearly does not constitute the eradictation of
the Celts.
> This episode sign the definitive end of the political power of the Celtic
> tribes in Anatolia, despite any Deiotarides.
If you cared to read on you would see when the definitive end Celtic political
power occured.
From the same source:
This event brought Galatia into more dependence on Rome, and worked to
consolidate Galatian leadership from many to one.
In 85 B.C. Galatia became an official protectorate of Rome. Deiotarus, a chief
of the Tolistobogii tribe, began to take central leadership of the Celtic
peoples in Galatia, and successfully defeated Pontus. Roman general Pompey
granted Deiotarus the title of king of all Galatia in 64 B.C. King Deiotarus
proved himself to be a wily Celt indeed as he played the political situations in
the Roman civil wars of the next decades. Famous Romans like Cicero and Marc
Antony spoke out in his favor, and Deiotarus was able to keep his reign in
Galatia, until his death in 40 B.C.
Deiotarus was followed in the kingship of Galatia by his son Deiotarus II, and
then by Amyntas. After the death of King Amyntas in 25 B.C., Galatia was annexed
by Rome and became a province of the empire. The Roman province of Galatia was
to remain in name for centuries, but Celtic independence there virtually
disappeared.
===========
Even in about 400 A.D., St. Jerome reported that the people of Galatia continued
to speak a Celtic language. But as the centuries passed, even these remnants
faded. Byzantine, and then Turkish control of the area led to diluting of Celtic
influences in what was once Galatia. It is interesting to note though that
Ankara, the current capital of Turkey, was once the capital of Celtic Galatia.
What else remains of the Celts of Galatia? Barry Cunliffe is quick to point out
that many towns in Turkey have Celtic placenames, from the days when the
Galatians ruled. The tomb of Galatian King Deiotarus II has been found in
Galatia, giving archaeologists hope that many more Celtic treasures from 2,000
years ago can be found in central Turkey. And perhaps this is the bright part of
the story of the ancient Galatians. As archaeologists begin to focus more on the
areas that were once Galatia, a fascinating wealth of information may be
uncovered of a Celtic people who lived long ago.
Ken Down
azyt...@mail.com (mb) wrote:
> Less "eradicated" than smallpox. A Celtic dialect was still spoken in
> the first century AD. Reported by no less than the Pope himself (ok,
> not Pope, St. Paul).
Reading Tacitus and Caesar's Gallic Wars, I have been impressed at how many
of the Celtic words they quote survive in modern Welsh.
J. Anderson
"Alessandro Riolo" <alessand...@sen.it> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:u9lca.82531$zo2.2...@news2.tin.it...
> Sajo Markecz, from <zilm...@iprimus.com.au>,
> in <news:3e71d...@news.iprimus.com.au> replied:
>
> > The ancestry of the English people are not ..
>
> What this textbook has to do with the ancestry of Galati?
I guess he's getting paid every time he posts this in a thread. I've seen it
25 times now.
John
(meitä on niin moneksi)
J. Anderson
"REAL" <nospam...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3E71C701...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Aemon wrote:
>
> > On 13 Mar 2003 08:55:03 -0800, johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> > >begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
> > >
> > >Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
> > >Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
> > >Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
> > >Dardanelles etc.
> >
> > I could quite believe that there are place names of Celtic origin in
> > Turkey but you, Harold, in your over eagerness to prove your assertion
> > are committing basic linguistic and logical errors.
> >
> > I'm fairly sure that Galatia is a name of ultimately Celtic origin but
> > Ankara....I doubt that very very much.
We've been through this Ankara bullshit half a year ago. I then asked him to
look at a map and explain why an inland place on an altitude of 850 m should
be called 'anchor'. The city has its name after the brook Ankara, a
tributary of the river Sakarya, and even if it would be navigable, there is
no reason to use anchors, because any vessel would of course be moored
quayside.
John
porsuk
REAL <nospam...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<3E72BD25...@hotmail.com>...
>
>
> Alessandro Riolo wrote:
>
> > REAL, from <nospam...@hotmail.com>,
> > in <news:3E71CD99...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Mithridates had nothing to do with the erradication of the Celts.
> > > It was the Romans who eventually displaced the Celts in Asia Minor.
> > > You really need to educate yourself on these matters if you are to
> > > speak of them.
> >
> > Wow Real, you surprised me, at last you showed me you are able to write 3-4
> > lines yourself :-)
> > You see, having an *opinion* and writing about that is not that hard :-p
:-)
>
> I have expressed my arguments many times if you had cared to read. I also
back
> up what I say with proof at all times possible. More often than not the
content
> of the post provides the answer without the need for myself to intervene.
this is precisely the reason why I skip over most of REAL's posts.
Mike
of the Danube river area introduced bronze to Britian through trading with
people of the Swiss Alps who in turn introduced Bronze to Britain. In the
long run, it was the people of the Danube river basin who developed Iron and
invaded Rome. Iron was also traded with the people of the Swiss Alps who in
turn traded with the Britains and Irish.
http://www.stephen.j.murray.btinternet.co.uk/bronze.htm
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/9/5078
Two extreme possibilities regarding the demographic nature of early cultural
transitions in the British Isles can be contrasted: (i) demic diffusion
models such as the wave-of-advance model (27) proposed for the arrival of
farming in Europe (2), which predicts considerable genetic discontinuity;
and (ii) cultural diffusion models, which predict genetic continuity, as
they involve little or no movement of people, only the diffusion of
technology. For example, the arrival of a Celtic material culture including
Hallstatt and La Tčne elite goods and skills in the late
Bronze Age and early Iron Age once was interpreted as reflecting waves of
immigrants but is now usually explained without invoking folk migrations
(3). As with the Neolithic, however, no solid evidence is available.
http://www.geocities.com/diarmidlogan/genetics.html
McNamara and MacNamara clans are located below:
http://www.bertdefriest.nl/MijnDNA.htm
http://www.burrenpage.com/Poulnabrone.html
http://www.lahinch.org/burren2.html
http://www.unr.edu/sb204/geology/europe.html
http://www.all-ireland.com/attractions/b/burren.htm
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/costume.htm
http://www.okelly.net/history/surname.htm
http://www.all-ireland.com/attractions/c/clare/clare.htm
I'm a McNamara!
http://www.geocities.com/diarmidlogan/genetics.html
The O'Shea and McNamara are the same within hp group 1 or 1.15.
http://www2.smumn.edu/uasal/DNAWWW/ytechnical.html
"Alessandro Riolo" <alessand...@sen.it> wrote in message
news:8Buca.59794$pG1.1...@news1.tin.it...
> Si puň leggere il manifesto su
> _it.news.annunci_ o _it.news.votazioni_
>
Seanie O'Kilfyle
"REAL" <nospam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E72BD25...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Alessandro Riolo wrote:
>
> > REAL, from <nospam...@hotmail.com>,
> > in <news:3E71CD99...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Mithridates had nothing to do with the erradication of the Celts.
> > > It was the Romans who eventually displaced the Celts in Asia Minor.
> > > You really need to educate yourself on these matters if you are to
> > > speak of them.
> >
> > Wow Real, you surprised me, at last you showed me you are able to write
3-4
> > lines yourself :-)
> > You see, having an *opinion* and writing about that is not that hard :-p
>
> I have expressed my arguments many times if you had cared to read.
Liar
You are a copy/paste spamming moron
Everyone knows what you are slimy liar unREAL
Yusuf B Gursey
: The ancestry of the English people are not quite as clear cut as most
: people
irrelevant.
but what feature made the poster that the *mames* (i.e. words) were of
celtic origin?
Harold
> In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
>
> : There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> : begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
>
>
>
> Finns?!
>
> : Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
> : Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
> : Dardanelles etc.
>
>
> Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
> Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
> Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
> water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
> all turkic)
> Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
> suffix.
> FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
> Fener "lighthouse" < greek
> Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek via arabic
> Kalkan "shield"
These are a good example of meaningless names in the wrong language
like "glass land". They all have very normal and typical Celtic
meanings. The Celts entered Europe from Anatolia Turkey and returned
there many times as Galatians, Phrygians etc.
"Eski" in the town Eskisehir means "water" and is used many times in
Celtic placenames throughout the world. "Eskimo" is alsoaCeltic word!
"Sehir" may mean town, it is not a celtic word. But a name like "town
by the water" for a town on a river is very common.
"Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide. It comes from
the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
meant "free arinobleman".
>
> -------
>
> AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
> Anatolian speaking people.
"Dardani" means "sea river" literally, and is a very suitable name for
a river-like connection between the Black and Medit seas.
>
> Trabzon is greek trapezium.
It sounds like "three rivers", a common name for Celtic places like
Treski or Treska in Slavic Europe.
>
> the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
> "Tripoli"???)
"Tir" means territory or land, also common, like Tirana in Albania.
>
> what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
Celts lived there for thousands of years and passed through it many
times as Phrygians, Albanians, Macedonians, Galatians etc. They were
all Celts.The names of towns have very ordinary meanings compared with
unnatural meanings in Turkish and otherlanguages.
Harlan Messinger
As was just pointed out to you, they have very normal and typical Turkish
meanings.
>The Celts entered Europe from Anatolia Turkey and returned
> there many times as Galatians, Phrygians etc.
Also Turks lived in Anatolia. Did you know that, or is that an amazing fact
for you?
>
> "Eski" in the town Eskisehir means "water" and is used many times in
Don't you think there's something odd about how, based on your own reports,
the Celts named almost every single city "water"?
> Celtic placenames throughout the world. "Eskimo" is alsoaCeltic word!
> "Sehir" may mean town, it is not a celtic word. But a name like "town
> by the water" for a town on a river is very common.
>
> "Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide. It comes from
> the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
> after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
>
> The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
> once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
> meant "free arinobleman".
> >
> > -------
> >
> > AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
> > Anatolian speaking people.
>
> "Dardani" means "sea river" literally, and is a very suitable name for
> a river-like connection between the Black and Medit seas.
>
> >
> > Trabzon is greek trapezium.
>
> It sounds like "three rivers", a common name for Celtic places like
> Treski or Treska in Slavic Europe.
Note that "sounds like" is not synonymous with "is". English "day" sounds
like Spanish "día" (meaning "day") but the two words come from entirely
different roots.
> >
> > the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
> > "Tripoli"???)
>
> "Tir" means territory or land, also common, like Tirana in Albania.
You seem to imagine that these various syllables have no meaning in any
*other* language.
> >
> > what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
>
> Celts lived there for thousands of years
Is it your contention the proposition "If Celts lived there, it follows that
all the place names there are Celtic" is a tautology? It isn't, and you
haven't answered his question. Again, note that Celts are not the only
people who have lived there for thousands of years (assuming Celts *have*
lived there thousands of years).
> and passed through it many
> times as Phrygians, Albanians, Macedonians, Galatians etc. They were
> all Celts.The names of towns have very ordinary meanings compared with
> unnatural meanings in Turkish and otherlanguages.
What is your obsession with "unnatural meanings" and what do you think that
term means? Is a "meaning" unnatural unless it has something to do with
water? Is "brotherly love" an "unnatural meaning" that makes it impossible
for that to be the source of the word "Philadelphia"?
J. Anderson
"Harold" <johan...@planetaccess.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:f22f0289.03031...@posting.google.com...
> "Eskimo" is alsoaCeltic word!
Without bothering to comment on the rest, what gave you this remarkable
idea? Eskimo comes from the Danish spelling of the French form (Esquimaux)
of an originally Algonquian word describing - surprise, surprise! - the
Inuit (also known as Eskimos). There is absolutely nothing Celtic involved
in this, however shocking you may find that.
John
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote
: ...
:> : same rt as Phoenix, Phoenician, etc.).
:>
:> then greek < semitic or AA
: I think the jury is still out on that. On the Greek side, all that
thanks.
: Andriotis and Babiniotis report as Sem. origin is that the P. called
: themselves KinaHni or some such thing. There is a (pre-?)Hell.
with x not H in some semitic scripts, representing 3. they called
themselves canaanites from merchants, though this is no tclear.
: "phoinix", originally "not white, dark", later "red, reddish", that
: gave name to a fruit - and some speculation re its being applied to
: tanned complexions.
according to Koehler p. 444 "k@na3an" and Enc. Judaica "Phoenicia" it
refers to the purple dyed wool that was an export, the Murex shellfish on
which the dye is based being found on the coast.
thus the name having meant *Merchants of Purple Dyed Wool
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<b4qkvg$3ip$1...@pcls4.std.com>...
:>
:> these are turkish:
:>
:> Eskis,ehir "Old City" (< turkic + persian)
:> Kemer "belt" (unless it is based on some earlier name).
:> Denizli (older de*ng*izli = "possesor of sea(s)", refering to the hot
:> water pools, formerly Do*ng*uzlu - modern Domuzlu = "possesor of swine",
:> all turkic)
:> Cameli "glass land" (unless based on an earlier name) < persian + turkic
:> suffix.
:> FIndIklI "possessor of hazelnuts) (< greek + turkic suffix)
:> Fener "lighthouse" < greek
:> Afyon "opium" (! opium poppies are abundant around it) < greek via arabic
:> Kalkan "shield"
: These are a good example of meaningless names in the wrong language
there is the problem of attestation. the turkish names do not appear until
the arrival of the Turks, and they make perfect sense in turkish. also you
are basing your etymology on current turkish roman orthogrpahy, which you
misread. at the very least, use classical greek or roman sources.
: like "glass land". They all have very normal and typical Celtic
it turns out to be "Pine Land", I was thrown off by the lack of
diacritics.
: meanings. The Celts entered Europe from Anatolia Turkey and returned
: there many times as Galatians, Phrygians etc.
: "Eski" in the town Eskisehir means "water" and is used many times in
the former (pre-turkish) name was Dorylaion
: Celtic placenames throughout the world. "Eskimo" is alsoaCeltic word!
: "Sehir" may mean town, it is not a celtic word. But a name like "town
s,ehir (*sh*ehir < pers. *sh*ahr)
: by the water" for a town on a river is very common.
: "Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide. It comes from
: the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
: after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
it is pronounced *ch*am - eli .
: The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
: once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
I bet it does!
: meant "free arinobleman".
:>
:> -------
:>
:> AFAIK the Dardani after whom the Dardanelles is named after are an Old
:> Anatolian speaking people.
: "Dardani" means "sea river" literally, and is a very suitable name for
: a river-like connection between the Black and Medit seas.
the componnets are found in other IE langugaes as well, if it is indeend
the correct components.
:>
:> Trabzon is greek trapezium.
: It sounds like "three rivers", a common name for Celtic places like
: Treski or Treska in Slavic Europe.
:>
:> the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
:> "Tripoli"???)
: "Tir" means territory or land, also common, like Tirana in Albania.
the "i" is a turkish addition, to avoid the greek consonant cluster.
:>
:> what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
: Celts lived there for thousands of years and passed through it many
: times as Phrygians, Albanians, Macedonians, Galatians etc. They were
oh!
: all Celts.The names of towns have very ordinary meanings compared with
: unnatural meanings in Turkish and otherlanguages.
they are hardly unnatural.
Yusuf B Gursey
: : I think the jury is still out on that. On the Greek side, all that
: thanks.
: : Andriotis and Babiniotis report as Sem. origin is that the P. called
: : themselves KinaHni or some such thing. There is a (pre-?)Hell.
: with x not H in some semitic scripts, representing 3. they called
: themselves canaanites from merchants, though this is no tclear.
: : "phoinix", originally "not white, dark", later "red, reddish", that
: : gave name to a fruit - and some speculation re its being applied to
: : tanned complexions.
: according to Koehler p. 444 "k@na3an" and Enc. Judaica "Phoenicia" it
: refers to the purple dyed wool that was an export, the Murex shellfish on
: which the dye is based being found on the coast.
also mentioned is Hurrian knaGGI "purple dye"
: thus the name having meant *Merchants of Purple Dyed Wool
Yusuf B Gursey
: In sci.lang mb <azyt...@mail.com> in <c5d8a9d0.03031...@posting.google.com> wrote:
: : Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote
: :>
: :> some of these can't be celtic.
: :>
: :> : Ankara (anchor), Finnike,
: : Ankara = Ankyra (Gr, possibly Phryg. root), Finike = Foinikeia (Gr.,
: : same rt as Phoenix, Phoenician, etc.).
the town is coastal . it may also have the shellfish on which the dye is
based (?).
Yusuf B Gursey
: Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote
: Brace yourself for the next batch. "Kahraman" Mara$ and "$anlI" Urfa
: are to be declared ur-Celtic, too.
Mara$ from mar3a*sh* sounds semitic
Urfa is what turks pronounced (so in Evliya C,elebi, 17th cent.) syriac
orha:y armenian uRhay , > arabic ar-ruha: (al-ruha:)
mb
...
> These are a good example of meaningless names in the wrong language
> like "glass land". They all have very normal and typical Celtic
> meanings. The Celts entered Europe from Anatolia Turkey and returned
> there many times as Galatians, Phrygians etc.
There was no Cameli in the time of Celt migrations. The Turks named it
that, in their "wrong" language, some 1300 years after the Celts were
gone. By the way, no Celts are ever reported in that area.
> "Eski" in the town Eskisehir means "water" and is used many times in
> Celtic placenames throughout the world.
The place was called "Dorylaion" until approx 1300 AD; when the Turks
started another township nearby, they called the old one "Old Town".
Eski= old, Shehir (<shahr, Pers.)= town.
> "Eskimo" is alsoaCeltic word!
Which means chocolate-covered ice cream?
> "Sehir" may mean town, it is not a celtic word. But a name like "town
> by the water" for a town on a river is very common.
> "Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide.
It means "belt" or "arch / aqueduct" in Turkish (< Pers.). Called so
because of ancient aqueducts nearby.
> It comes from
> the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
> after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
And "Harold" is a late form of "Camel"?
> The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
> once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
> meant "free arinobleman".
The word is fIndIk (<funduk(Tur) <pontikon [karyon]= Black Sea shore
nut, from Pontos [sea] (Grk) ie hazelnut. So fIndIklI = hazelnut
place.
...
> > Trabzon is greek trapezium.
>
> It sounds like "three rivers", a common name for Celtic places like
> Treski or Treska in Slavic Europe.
That's how it sounds to your ignorant ears. Trabzon (Tur)< Trapezounta
< Trapezos (Grk). Ever heard the word "trapeze"?
> > the ending in Tirebolu (-bolu) is from greek polis "city" (another
> > "Tripoli"???)
>
> "Tir" means territory or land, also common, like Tirana in Albania.
> > what makes you belive they are Celitc names, other than Galatia?
>
> Celts lived there for thousands of years and passed through it many
> times as Phrygians, Albanians, Macedonians, Galatians etc. They were
> all Celts.The names of towns have very ordinary meanings compared with
> unnatural meanings in Turkish and otherlanguages.
Let's look at "Harold". Care to do some Celtic etymology on that?
I'm answering just to make sure an occasional lurker doesn't takes any
of what you write seriously, not to waste my time with you.
Yusuf B Gursey
> In article <f22f0289.0303...@posting.google.com>,
> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
>
> > There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> > begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
> > Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water)
>
> Highly unlikely. The name incorporates the Turkish/Arabic "sehir", which
s,ehir
turkish eski = "old".
> means "city".
>
as I said before, form persian, not arabic.
arabic *sh*ahr means "month" (not normally used in turkish).
> Ken Down
Harold
> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote
> ...
> > These are a good example of meaningless names in the wrong language
> > like "glass land". They all have very normal and typical Celtic
> > meanings. The Celts entered Europe from Anatolia Turkey and returned
> > there many times as Galatians, Phrygians etc.
>
> There was no Cameli in the time of Celt migrations. The Turks named it
> that, in their "wrong" language, some 1300 years after the Celts were
> gone. By the way, no Celts are ever reported in that area.
Celts and their cousins were almost everywhere in Turkey. The
Hurrians, Hittites, Galatians, Thracians, Phrygians wre all Celtic
related people.
>
> > "Eski" in the town Eskisehir means "water" and is used many times in
> > Celtic placenames throughout the world.
>
> The place was called "Dorylaion" until approx 1300 AD; when the Turks
> started another township nearby, they called the old one "Old Town".
> Eski= old, Shehir (<shahr, Pers.)= town.
>
> > "Eskimo" is also a Celtic word!
> > "Sehir" may mean town, it is not a celtic word. But a name like "town
> > by the water" for a town on a river is very common.
>
>
> > "Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide.
>
> It means "belt" or "arch / aqueduct" in Turkish (< Pers.). Called so
> because of ancient aqueducts nearby.
Kemer comes from Kimmerian or Kimbri Celts who have given their name
worldwide. "Cumberland" is one of the names from this.
This name is surrounded by other names in the same area, in Lycia,
which are also Celtic. Such as "Kale" which means Celt.
The word does not mean "banana belt" or "glass fig" or something
ridiculous like that.
>
>
> > It comes from
> > the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
> > after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
>
>
> > The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
> > once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
> > meant "free arinobleman".
>
> The word is fIndIk (<funduk(Tur) <pontikon [karyon]= Black Sea shore
> nut, from Pontos [sea] (Grk) ie hazelnut. So fIndIklI = hazelnut
> place.
This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
after a hazlenut.
>
> ...
> > > Trabzon is greek trapezium.
> >
> > It sounds like "three rivers", a common name for Celtic places like
> > Treski or Treska in Slavic Europe.
>
Yusuf B Gursey
Yusuf B Gursey
: In sci.lang Harold <johan...@planetaccess.com> wrote:
: : There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
: : begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
: some of these can't be celtic.
: : Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
: Finns?!
(adding extra n's to prove one's point is cheating)
: : Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
: : Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
: : Dardanelles etc.
: these are turkish:
I assume Kumra is "Kumru" (in the Black Sea region), meaning "dove" (<
`ar.), unless it is a turkification of a previous name.
António Pedro Marques
>>The word is fIndIk (<funduk(Tur) <pontikon [karyon]= Black Sea shore
>>nut, from Pontos [sea] (Grk) ie hazelnut. So fIndIklI = hazelnut
>>place.
>
> This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
> American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
> after a hazlenut.
Actually several portuguese towns are named after fruits. Hazelnuts and
apples rule.
--
António Pedro Marques . http://enseada.planetaclix.pt
Harlan Messinger
>
>This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
>American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
>after a hazlenut.
One thing the field of linguistics isn't noted for is the steady of
the mental states of people who name towns various things. Your friend
(assuming he is real) sounds like a nut.
Why exactly would a place not be named for hazelnuts if it happens to
be distinguished, say, by an abundance of hazelnut trees?
Do you think insane people are responsible for the names of Appleton,
Wisconsin; Orange and Citrus Counties, Florida; Peach County, Georgia;
Cedar Rapids, Iowa; Pine Bluff, Arkansas; Oakton, Virginia; Beech
Grove, Indiana; etc?
Do you know that a city in Hungary is named Szombathely ("Saturday
place"); that the name of Tajikistan's capital, Dushanbe, is the Tajik
word for "Monday"; and that Rio de Janeiro means "river of January"?
Are those too "weird" for you to believe?
Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico; Accident,
Maryland; Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
Do you think anybody thinks you're not making your "reasoning" up as
you go along?
--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Henry Polard
Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote:
Not to mention Federal Way, Washington:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z122230E3
"Fedral Way" obviously is Celtic for "all place names are Celtic just
like this one"; proof is left as an exercise for the reader.
Henry Polard || We are all Celts :-).
Peter T. Daniels
> Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico; Accident,
> Maryland; Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
Which really is just down the road from Blue Ball.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
> Celts and their cousins were almost everywhere in Turkey. The
> Hurrians, Hittites, Galatians, Thracians, Phrygians wre all Celtic
> related people.
Splork.
Yusuf B Gursey
:> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote
:> ...
:>
:>
:> > "Kemer" is also a name common in Celtic area worldwide.
:>
:> It means "belt" or "arch / aqueduct" in Turkish (< Pers.). Called so
:> because of ancient aqueducts nearby.
: Kemer comes from Kimmerian or Kimbri Celts who have given their name
: worldwide. "Cumberland" is one of the names from this.
: This name is surrounded by other names in the same area, in Lycia,
: which are also Celtic. Such as "Kale" which means Celt.
kale means "castle, fort" in turkish, form `ar. qal3a(t)
these names are not old. at the very least you must investigate the
earliwr names.
: The word does not mean "banana belt" or "glass fig" or something
: ridiculous like that.
who said it meant "banana belt" or "glass fig".
:>
:>
:> > It comes from
:> > the "Kimmerian" or "Kimbri" people. Kimmerland in Denmark is named
:> > after them too. ""Cameli" is probably "Kameri" with the same meaning.
:>
:>
:> > The keyword "Fin" or "Fen" is the same as in other parts of the world
:> > once under Celtic influence. It has nothing to do with "hazlenuts". It
:> > meant "free arinobleman".
:>
:> The word is fIndIk (<funduk(Tur) <pontikon [karyon]= Black Sea shore
:> nut, from Pontos [sea] (Grk) ie hazelnut. So fIndIklI = hazelnut
:> place.
: This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
: American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
: after a hazlenut.
it happens that the region is very well known for its hazlenuts.
tkavanagh
>
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
<snip>
locally known as T or C, and which was renamed on a bet from the TV
show.
tk
Harlan Messinger
Yes, though I will grant that it's likely that the Celts ever named
anything under similar circumstances.
Inger E Johansson
"Harlan Messinger" <h.mes...@comcast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:msbj7vgnjh39hgqi3...@4ax.com...
> tkavanagh <tkav...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
> >"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
> >>
> >> Harlan Messinger wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> > Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico
> >
> >locally known as T or C, and which was renamed on a bet from the TV
> >show.
>
> Yes, though I will grant that it's likely that the Celts ever named
> anything under similar circumstances.
One other question - when is the earliest possible period we can speak of
Celts as Celts? The Egyptian didn't mention Celts did they? Did the Greeks?
If so when in time?
Inger E
Harlan Messinger
Actually, AIUI, it wasn't a bet, it was a deal. The show promised to
stage an episode in any community that would take its name.
Tomi
news:7cgj7vgr81njf0im9...@4ax.com:
> tkavanagh <tkav...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>
>>"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
>>>
>>> Harlan Messinger wrote:
>><snip>
>>> > Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico
>>
>>locally known as T or C, and which was renamed on a bet from the TV
>>show.
>
> Actually, AIUI, it wasn't a bet, it was a deal. The show promised to
> stage an episode in any community that would take its name.
>
>
Yes, but what about Turkey which is after all our prime interest here in
the Nordic countries?
--
T: Tomi
Harold
worldwide:
Kal, Fin, Fen, Tir, Tre, Kum, Can, Den, Don etc.
These Celtic names that I gave a long list of, form clusters and are
grouped together in different parts of the country. The meaning is
obvious, since in the southwest, northeast, centre and northwest have
words which are similar and Celtic. This is because of the presence of
the Hittites, Thracians, Galitians etc in these regions historically.
You must understand history to understand the placenames and then you
will see why a name like "banana belt", which may sound normal in
Turko-Ugric, is incorrect and childish.
In the Northwest in the Thrace area we have:
Gelibolu (Gallipoli), Dardanelles (sea-river), Canakkale, Balli, Truva
etc.
Thracian Celts and Phrygians were here.
In the Centre in Galitia we have:
Ankara, Kirikkale, Cumra, Kemerhisat, Konya, Golbasi, Alaca,
Bogazkale.
Several Celtic groups were here, including Hurrians, Hittites.
In the Southwest in Lycia we have:
Finike, Kale, Kalkan, Golhisar, Kemer, Kumluca, Tefenni, Cameli,
Tavas.
The Hittites and other Celts were here.
On the Northeast Coast, Pontus, we have:
Kalkandere, Findikle, Trabzon, Fener, Tirebolu, Terme, Kelkit, Narman,
Askale.
So the placenames are grouped in geographic regions. Not too many in
the Southeast for example.
I will receive several Ph.D's for this important work in Linguistics,
History andPhilosophy. Please submit your offers by contacting me at
my email address.
Yusuf B Gursey <y...@TheWorld.com> wrote in message news:<b5bc38$3do$1...@pcls4.std.com>...
Harlan Messinger
>
>
> I will receive several Ph.D's for this important work in Linguistics,
> History andPhilosophy. Please submit your offers by contacting me at
> my email address.
>
????
Is this how when gets Ph.Ds where you're from? One announces "I will receive
several Ph.Ds" and then waits for people to write back, "Please let us be
one of the institutions that gives one to you"?
Yusuf B Gursey
no matter what argument you use, you run up with the problem attestation
(somehow people with outlandish tehories neglect this very obvious
consideration). the turkish ones you don't find before the turks. then you
have greek (or languages of the region). work with whattevr remains.
: These places have numerous root words found in Celtic places
: worldwide:
: Kal, Fin, Fen, Tir, Tre, Kum, Can, Den, Don etc.
fin- , fen-, tre- and tir- are found in words of greek origin.
: These Celtic names that I gave a long list of, form clusters and are
: grouped together in different parts of the country. The meaning is
: obvious, since in the southwest, northeast, centre and northwest have
: words which are similar and Celtic. This is because of the presence of
: the Hittites, Thracians, Galitians etc in these regions historically.
: You must understand history to understand the placenames and then you
: will see why a name like "banana belt", which may sound normal in
: Turko-Ugric, is incorrect and childish.
there is no such thing as "Turko-Ugric".
: On the Northeast Coast, Pontus, we have:
: Kalkandere, Findikle, Trabzon, Fener, Tirebolu, Terme, Kelkit, Narman,
: Askale.
many of these words / names are of greek origin or partly so.
: So the placenames are grouped in geographic regions. Not too many in
yes. aside from the turkish names, the names reflect the previous
languages of the region. so far only Galatia is celtic.
: the Southeast for example.
you don't have placenames of greek origin there, that's why.
: I will receive several Ph.D's for this important work in Linguistics,
really?
: History andPhilosophy. Please submit your offers by contacting me at
: my email address.
Yusuf B Gursey
: no matter what argument you use, you run up with the problem attestation
: (somehow people with outlandish tehories neglect this very obvious
a few might be as recently named so as in the 1920's.
: consideration). the turkish ones you don't find before the turks. then you
: have greek (or languages of the region). work with whattevr remains.
back to FIndIklI, it doesn't mean "hazelnut" but "abundant in hazelnuts".
the turkish word for "hazelnut" itself comes from the greek name for the
larger region, Pontus (in graeco-latin).
Henry Polard
johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
>
> I will receive several Ph.D's for this important work in Linguistics,
> History andPhilosophy. Please submit your offers by contacting me at
> my email address.
Please contact:
http://www.phdcanada.com/order2.htm
http://www.universities.com/Schools/B/Bernadean_University.asp
And of course:
Henry Polard || Homo Erectus was Celtic! Proof by assertion is valid!
Yusuf B Gursey
previously mentioned meanings not incl.
: In the Northwest in the Thrace area we have:
: Gelibolu (Gallipoli), Dardanelles (sea-river), Canakkale, Balli, Truva
: etc.
C,anakkale "saucer (shaped) fort" (turkic + `ar.)
BallI "abundant in honey" (turkic)
kale refers to natural as well as manmade forts (in arabic qal`a(t)
more to the first)
: Thracian Celts and Phrygians were here.
let's stick to "just Celts" (!)
: In the Centre in Galitia we have:
: Ankara, Kirikkale, Cumra, Kemerhisat, Konya, Golbasi, Alaca,
KIrIkkale "broken" (ruined) fort (turkic + `ar.)
Kemerhisar Arch (or Aquaduct) castle (pers. + < `ar.)
Go"lbas,I (Go"lba*sh*I) "head of the lake" (it's on a lake).
Alaca (short for Alaca Hu"yu"k / Ho"yu"k) "somewhat varicolored" (mound)
(turkic)
: Bogazkale.
Bog~azkale (until recently Bog~azko"y) "Gorge Fort" (turkic + `ar.)
(ko"y turkic).
(last two near site of Hattusas / Khatussas , Hittite capital)
Konya is cl. greek Ikonion (Lat. Iconium) "icon, figure"
Cumra is pronounced Jumra (unless it is C,= i..e. *Ch*-)
: Several Celtic groups were here, including Hurrians, Hittites.
: In the Southwest in Lycia we have:
: Finike, Kale, Kalkan, Golhisar, Kemer, Kumluca, Tefenni, Cameli,
: Tavas.
Go"lhisar "Lake Castle" (turkic + < `ar.)
Kumluca "sandyish" (turkic)
Tavas possibly named after a place in central asia.
: The Hittites and other Celts were here.
: On the Northeast Coast, Pontus, we have:
: Kalkandere, Findikle, Trabzon, Fener, Tirebolu, Terme, Kelkit, Narman,
It's FIndIklI
: Askale.
Kalkandere : "sheild" (cliff) brook (turkic)
As,kale "Food Fort" (unless based on an earlier name).
Charles A. Burge
I think all doubts are laid to rest that this guy is clearly off his rocker. He
seems to be quite entertaining though. I'm still waiting to hear about Celtic
place names in Hawaii.
Charles
Matthew Harley
>
>
> One other question - when is the earliest possible period we can speak of
> Celts as Celts? The Egyptian didn't mention Celts did they? Did the Greeks?
> If so when in time?
"Hecataeus of Miletus (c 500B.C.), an early geographer and
writer, was the first to use the term "Keltoi".
http://www.geocities.com/mariamnephilemon/history.html
Matt Harley
Inger E Johansson
"Matthew Harley" <har...@eircom.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:3E7AEEFD...@eircom.net...
> Inger E Johansson wrote:
> >
> >
> > One other question - when is the earliest possible period we can speak
of
> > Celts as Celts? The Egyptian didn't mention Celts did they? Did the
Greeks?
> > If so when in time?
>
> "Hecataeus of Miletus (c 500B.C.), an early geographer and
> writer, was the first to use the term "Keltoi".
Which is far after the time Harold and other alike him try to make believe.
inger E
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mariamnephilemon/history.html
>
> Matt Harley
Mike
of the Danube river area introduced bronze to Britian through trading with
people of the Swiss Alps who in turn introduced Bronze to Britain. The
people in Turkey had started out as Paleolithic or Mesolthic farmers some
10, 000 years ago or later, eventually introducing farming to the Neothlic
population of Europe. In the long run, it was the people of the Danube river
basin who developed Iron and invaded Rome. (They were the 'Barbarians' but
never the less Kelts as opposed to Celts according to Greek)
Iron was also traded with the people of the Swiss Alps who in turn traded
with the Britains and Irish.
http://www.stephen.j.murray.btinternet.co.uk/bronze.htm
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/9/5078
The people of Norway were reminiscent of those Celts(Kelts) who invaded
Rome. Those people of Norway were not actually involved in the invasion of
Rome; simply they had genetics relating to them and were part of the
Neolithic or hunter-gatherer settlers of Norway.
The majority of Irish are of HG1 or 1.15 and not related to the Africans on
the Y-Chromosome.
On the southern tip of Sweden the blond newcomers met a well established
population of the Rh-negative leather tanners and boat builders, called
Hilleans by Apollonius of Rhodes. They got along fine with them because the
newcomers needed their products also. They were cutting and managing the oak
forests of that area, removing the bark for tanning the boatloads of
reindeer skins which their compatriots at Mount Komsa in Finnmark, Arctic
Norway were sending south. From here the oak-tanned leather was sent to the
Basque country and the Mediterranean to be used as sails. The oak wood was
used for building boats. It probably was a very lucrative trade and the
population lived well until a mini-ice age forced them out of the area and
they fled south into Poland, where their many descendants can still be
recognized by their blood peculiarity.
On the Norwegian islands of the west coast was another population of the
dark featured Berbers, called the Vanir in legends, all related to and in
regular contact with the Black Irish and Scots. The distance from Orkney to
Finnmark had proven to be too long, and intermediate support stations were
required. These groups of people at first appear to have resented the
intrusion by the blond tribe of Sea Peoples, which gave birth to the legend
of the enmity between the Vanir (the dark-haired islanders) and the Aesir
(the blond tribe). Both these tribes spoke the same Saharan language, even
though some dialectal differences had developed over the centuries. They all
had long known about each other, because the chief priestess, located on
Barra, had come from the blond tribe and trade with the Baltic had long been
active. Both practiced different forms of the same Goddess religion.
All these people described above belonged to the Sea Peoples, speaking one
language and believing in one Goddess in many manifestations. But trouble
was brewing and their traditional system of communicating became the vehicle
for the organization of, what the pharao called, "the League of the Sea
Peoples". Nancy Sanders, in her book "The Sea Peoples, wonders where such an
overpowering force could have come from:
".... we have to ask who was in a position to raise a fleet large enough,
well enough organized and, most important, having sufficient incentive to
carry out the massive devastation on land, as well as the action on the sea?
No northern power would have been likely to do it". (p.181)
With "northern power" she meant the countries on the north side of the
eastern Mediterranean, not north-western Europe. But that is exactly where
this enormous fleet came from, manned with people intent on reversing the
changes which had come to the Near East.
http://www.islandnet.com/~edonon/RH-NEG.htm
http://www.sbs.com.au/ancientireland/
Read more about the Milankovitch cycles and the effect it had on Europe. You
don't have to read it as it is quite complicated since it involves
populations in Europe and to a degree thier farmsteads and ability to grow
crops.
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac/time1/milankov.htm
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/seasons_orbit.html
Two extreme possibilities regarding the demographic nature of early cultural
transitions in the British Isles can be contrasted: (i) demic diffusion
models such as the wave-of-advance model (27) proposed for the arrival of
farming in Europe (2), which predicts considerable genetic discontinuity;
and (ii) cultural diffusion models, which predict genetic continuity, as
they involve little or no movement of people, only the diffusion of
technology. For example, the arrival of a Celtic material culture including
Hallstatt and La Tene elite goods and skills in the late
Bronze Age and early Iron Age once was interpreted as reflecting waves of
immigrants but is now usually explained without invoking folk migrations
(3). As with the Neolithic, however, no solid evidence is available.
http://www.geocities.com/diarmidlogan/genetics.html
McNamara and MacNamara clans are located below:
http://www.bertdefriest.nl/MijnDNA.htm
http://www.burrenpage.com/Poulnabrone.html
http://www.lahinch.org/burren2.html
http://www.unr.edu/sb204/geology/europe.html
http://www.all-ireland.com/attractions/b/burren.htm
http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/costume.htm
http://www.okelly.net/history/surname.htm
http://www.all-ireland.com/attractions/c/clare/clare.htm
I'm a McNamara!
http://www.geocities.com/diarmidlogan/genetics.html
The O'Shea and McNamara are the same within hp group 1 or 1.15.
http://www2.smumn.edu/uasal/DNAWWW/ytechnical.html
"REAL" <nospam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E71C701...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> Aemon wrote:
>
> > On 13 Mar 2003 08:55:03 -0800, johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >There are a very large number of Celtic placenames in Turkey which
> > >begin probably from the time of the Hittites or before.
> > >
> > >Ankara (anchor), Eskisehir (water), Tefenni (land of Finns?), Finnike,
> > >Kemer (Cimbri), Trava (three rivers), Denizli, Cameli, Kumra,
> > >Findikli, Fener, Tirebolu, Trabzon, Galatia, Afyon, Kalkan,
> > >Dardanelles etc.
> >
> > I could quite believe that there are place names of Celtic origin in
> > Turkey but you, Harold, in your over eagerness to prove your assertion
> > are committing basic linguistic and logical errors.
> >
> > I'm fairly sure that Galatia is a name of ultimately Celtic origin but
> > Ankara....I doubt that very very much.
> >
> > Nik
>
>
http://www.ancienttimes.net/cgi-ancienttimes/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=47&to
pic=4
>
> Post Title: Origins of Ankara
> Post Description: from Kruta
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
> Ankara, the capital of modern Turkey, was known as Ancyra to the Hellenes
> and Galatians.
>
> Legend had it that the city was founded by King Midas and that it was a
> Phrygian city long before the Celtic invaders came to Asia Minor.
>
> But Ancyra became a chief city of one of Galatian nations, the Tectosages,
> as mentioned in an earlier post by Somatophylax. It was later the biggest
> city in Galatia. Thus the Celtic invaders may have been the real founders
> of Turkey's present-day capital.
>
>
J. Anderson
"Harold" <johan...@planetaccess.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:f22f0289.03031...@posting.google.com...
> This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
> American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
> after a hazlenut.
Maybe it was the same person who named Darmstadt (literally = the intestine
city).
J. Anderson
"Harlan Messinger" <h.mes...@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2i3i7v84cbrj4h5fj...@4ax.com...
> Do you think insane people are responsible for the names of Appleton,
> Wisconsin; Orange and Citrus Counties, Florida; Peach County, Georgia;
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa; Pine Bluff, Arkansas; Oakton, Virginia; Beech
> Grove, Indiana; etc?
>
> Do you know that a city in Hungary is named Szombathely ("Saturday
> place"); that the name of Tajikistan's capital, Dushanbe, is the Tajik
> word for "Monday"; and that Rio de Janeiro means "river of January"?
> Are those too "weird" for you to believe?
>
> Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico; Accident,
> Maryland; Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
Allow me to add the town of Onancock, Virginia (for further information,
please go to http://www.onancock.com/), probably founded by Semitic Celts...
Charles A. Burge
IIRC, Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania has nothing really to do with the former
Olympian, but was named after him simply to gain attention for itself.
Other Pennsylvania town names include Bird-in-Hand, Blue Ball, and the famed
Punxsutawney, which I have heard refers to the prevelance of mosquitos in the
area.
Charles
Harold
> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
>
> >
> >This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
> >American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
> >after a hazlenut.
>
> One thing the field of linguistics isn't noted for is the steady of
> the mental states of people who name towns various things. Your friend
> (assuming he is real) sounds like a nut.
>
> Why exactly would a place not be named for hazelnuts if it happens to
> be distinguished, say, by an abundance of hazelnut trees?
The word "fin" has nothin to do with hazlenuts because it appears even
in "Vinland", a corrupt version of the Celtic name for the place which
means "Free People" or "Free Land". It can be found in many parts of
Turkey, wher just by coincidence, Celts were originally living. They
were in Turkey for 4000 years before the present Turks came there.
>
> Do you know that a city in Hungary is named Szombathely ("Saturday
> place");
I dont know Hungarians very well, but you should ask Italians about
them they seem to understand their early conquerors well.
> Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico; Accident,
> Maryland;
Americans can be very nutty.
> Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
I am happy to report that I was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It has
a very large population of German origin, almost 7 million. I
experienced Intercourse and it should be in capital latters too. Much
better than our German variety, less inhibitions almost French-like
which we admire so much.
> Do you think anybody thinks you're not making your "reasoning" up as
> you go along?
My conclusions are based on solid science and facts. I have already
received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on the
Internet. None were from Scandinavia (also a Celtic word meaning 'The
Scandi tribe on the ocean who have many ships'). This they will
regret.
I know you dont like me personally Harlan, but the war is long over
and you must separate the individual from his work. My proven theories
have much recognition and respect in the most prestigious universities
in the world. I have even received correspondence from Chinese and
Japanese professors about my important conclusions.
Harold
The Celts and their ancestors were in Turkey for over 4000 years
before the present Turks arrived. Most Turks genetically are still
Celts, but culturally they are Turks. The Phrygians, Thracians,
Macedonians, Galatians were all Celts.
There were other tribes in Turkey too, such as Tolosti and Trocme.
There are many town and places named after all these groups and I will
give more details in a later post. Many of their names have been
modified or changed completely, but others can still be seen such as
Gelibolu for Gallipoli.
Peter T. Daniels
There are not "almost 7 million" people in Philadelphia.
> experienced Intercourse and it should be in capital latters too. Much
> better than our German variety, less inhibitions almost French-like
> which we admire so much.
>
> > Do you think anybody thinks you're not making your "reasoning" up as
> > you go along?
>
> My conclusions are based on solid science and facts. I have already
> received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on the
> Internet. None were from Scandinavia (also a Celtic word meaning 'The
> Scandi tribe on the ocean who have many ships'). This they will
> regret.
>
> I know you dont like me personally Harlan, but the war is long over
> and you must separate the individual from his work. My proven theories
> have much recognition and respect in the most prestigious universities
> in the world. I have even received correspondence from Chinese and
> Japanese professors about my important conclusions.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Charles A. Burge
> [snip]
The wider metro area does have 6 to 7 million people. However, that is counting everyone from Wilmington, DE,
southern NJ, and significant portions of PA, including Reading and Allentown.
They are most certainly not all of German origin. I sizable percentage is of Italian origin. Also there is a
significant number of Jews is Cherry Hill, NJ (not sure if they count as German origin or not).
Charles
Harlan Messinger
>Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<2i3i7v84cbrj4h5fj...@4ax.com>...
>> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
>> >American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
>> >after a hazlenut.
>>
>> One thing the field of linguistics isn't noted for is the steady of
>> the mental states of people who name towns various things. Your friend
>> (assuming he is real) sounds like a nut.
>>
>> Why exactly would a place not be named for hazelnuts if it happens to
>> be distinguished, say, by an abundance of hazelnut trees?
>
>The word "fin" has nothin to do with hazlenuts because it appears even
>in "Vinland", a corrupt version of the Celtic name for the place which
>means "Free People" or "Free Land".
Do you really not see what a non-sequitur this is? Your operating
premise is that any conceivable syllable can only be from one
language, which is a patent absurdity.
>It can be found in many parts of
>Turkey, wher just by coincidence, Celts were originally living. They
>were in Turkey for 4000 years before the present Turks came there.
>
>>
>> Do you know that a city in Hungary is named Szombathely ("Saturday
>> place");
>
>I dont know Hungarians very well, but you should ask Italians about
>them they seem to understand their early conquerors well.
>
>> Are you freaked out by Truth or Consequences, New Mexico; Accident,
>> Maryland;
>
>Americans can be very nutty.
>> Do you think anybody thinks you're not making your "reasoning" up as
>> you go along?
>
>My conclusions are based on solid science and facts.
A comment like "only a nut (mad person) will name a town after a
hazlenut" says otherwise.
>I have already
>received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on the
>Internet. None were from Scandinavia (also a Celtic word meaning 'The
>Scandi tribe on the ocean who have many ships'). This they will
>regret.
>
>I know you dont like me personally Harlan,
How would I dislike you personally? I don't know you personally. All I
know is that here, you're all talk and condescension and no proof.
> but the war is long over
>and you must separate the individual from his work.
You haven't shown any work, just a lot of claims.
>My proven theories
You haven 't given a shred of evidence that you have proven of your
any theories, you've just repeated them. You waste enough of your time
repeating your claims here. If you really had proof, why in the world
wouldn't you want to share that too? If you don't, why would you
expect anyone to take you seriously.
>have much recognition and respect in the most prestigious universities
>in the world. I have even received correspondence from Chinese and
>Japanese professors about my important conclusions.
Harlan Messinger
>Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<2i3i7v84cbrj4h5fj...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
>
>
>I am happy to report that I was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It has
>a very large population of German origin, almost 7 million. I
>experienced Intercourse and it should be in capital latters too. Much
>better than our German variety, less inhibitions almost French-like
>which we admire so much.
>
I'm astonished you mentioned Germans instead of Celts in connection
with Philadelphia.
Doug Weller
Is other mal, and had no idea what it meant!
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Doug Weller
[SNIP]
>
>My conclusions are based on solid science and facts. I have already
>received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on the
>Internet.
No you haven't. Either you are just lying (and playing games with us) or
mentally ill.
Go ahead, surprise us, tell us who gave you these PhDs so we can verify
them.
[SNIP]
I'm not sure why people response to this idiot and ignore the other one,
the Mike who keeps quoting from the guy who thinks every language is
related to Basque (Edo Nyland). Neither is worth paying attention to
(although I admit to not following my own advice).
J. Anderson
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.demon.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:qou28v45m6815hdvd...@4ax.com...
> I'm not sure why people response to this idiot and ignore the other one,
> the Mike who keeps quoting from the guy who thinks every language is
> related to Basque (Edo Nyland). Neither is worth paying attention to
> (although I admit to not following my own advice).
Personally, I think people with bizarre agendas are great fun and a nice
change from all the wise guys (including myself) who take everything
seriously and think they are in sole possession of the truth.
On the other hand, it's comforting to know that posting in newgroups
eventually will earn you a few PhDs... ;~)
John
Panu Höglund
>
> This town is also surrounded by many other Celtic town names. My
> American linguist friend says only a nut (mad person) will name a town
> after a hazlenut.
Your non-existing friend, you mean. In my opinion, only a nut would
name a town after warriors. You translate just about anything as
meaning "fierce warriors". Why should anyone call a town "warriors"?
Peter T. Daniels
>
> On 25 Mar 2003 11:08:17 -0800, in sci.lang, Harold wrote:
> [SNIP]
> >
> >My conclusions are based on solid science and facts. I have already
> >received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on the
> >Internet.
>
> No you haven't. Either you are just lying (and playing games with us) or
> mentally ill.
>
> Go ahead, surprise us, tell us who gave you these PhDs so we can verify
> them.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> I'm not sure why people response to this idiot and ignore the other one,
> the Mike who keeps quoting from the guy who thinks every language is
> related to Basque (Edo Nyland). Neither is worth paying attention to
> (although I admit to not following my own advice).
Because that one doesn't post to the newsgroup we read?
J. Anderson
"Panu Höglund" <phog...@abo.fi> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:397828d4.03032...@posting.google.com...
You forget water, Panu. Lots of Harold's 'Celtic places' seemed to be named
water-something. If this was the result of constant hangovers, the Celts
haven't changed much, have they?
John
Thomas McDonald
<snip>
> My conclusions are based on solid science and facts. I have
already
> received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published on
the
> Internet. None were from Scandinavia (also a Celtic word
meaning 'The
> Scandi tribe on the ocean who have many ships'). This they will
> regret.
>
> I know you dont like me personally Harlan, but the war is long
over
> and you must separate the individual from his work. My proven
theories
> have much recognition and respect in the most prestigious
universities
> in the world. I have even received correspondence from Chinese
and
> Japanese professors about my important conclusions.
Ah. Finally the penny drops.
Very good, Harold; you've wound us up for a good bit now, and
done it without breaking character in any major way. The "I have
already received several Ph.D's because of the papers I published
on the Internet" was just that little bit too over-the-top to be
believed, however. It gave the game away.
Of course, there are enough folks who post idiocy of a type
similar to yours on this NG (sci.archaeology), so your posts
didn't stand out as obvious trollery at first. But the game is
up now, in my mind at least.
Perhaps you could tell us if you have actual archaeological
issues to discuss? With your wit and persistence, not to mention
the research you must have done in order to pull your little game
off, you might in fact have something to contribute here aside
from the little joke you've been playing.
Tom McDonald
Doug Weller
I'm still reading sci.lang from time to time and I thought I saw him
here in this thread. Maybe not.
Henry Polard
Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote:
> johan...@planetaccess.com (Harold) wrote:
>
> >Harlan Messinger <h.mes...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:<2i3i7v84cbrj4h5fj...@4ax.com>...
> >
> >> Intercourse, Pennsylvania?
> >
> >
> >I am happy to report that I was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It has
> >a very large population of German origin, almost 7 million. I
> >experienced Intercourse and it should be in capital latters too. Much
> >better than our German variety, less inhibitions almost French-like
> >which we admire so much.
> >
>
> I'm astonished you mentioned Germans instead of Celts in connection
> with Philadelphia.
Germans are all descended from Celts, anyway. We're all Celts - get
with the program. I bet Harold can even prove that the sub-Saharan and
Pacific ocean peoples are really Celts - the latter's navigation skills
are proof. And remember - proof by assertion is valid.
Henry Polard || The Celts did not invent SUVs.
Dan Seur
placename?
Panu Höglund
Oh yes, and this explains the problem of the Celts "founding" a river.
Without doubt, the Celtic warriors got such copious hangovers, that
wherever the roving warrior band stopped to vomit, or to urinate after
too much beer, they left a river.
Panu Höglund
> Germans are all descended from Celts, anyway. We're all Celts - get
> with the program. I bet Harold can even prove that the sub-Saharan and
> Pacific ocean peoples are really Celts - the latter's navigation skills
> are proof. And remember - proof by assertion is valid.
Yes, not to mention the well-known fact that Jesus was Irish...:)
Panu Höglund
> there is no such thing as "Turko-Ugric".
Now there is, now that Harold the Multi-PhD Himself has postulated it. :)
M. Ranjit Mathews
No; he was the son of Thor. Haven't you watched movies with Nordic Jesuses?
Torsten Poulin
>> Yes, not to mention the well-known fact that Jesus was Irish...:)
> No; he was the son of Thor. Haven't you watched movies with
> Nordic Jesuses?
And Thor was a Celtic deity because the Scandinavians are Celts
without any culture of their own. Because of this lack of
culture, they were forced to resort to piracy in order to get
some from the Celts. If this doesn't make sense to you, you can
always ask Harold for clarification.
--
Torsten
M. Ranjit Mathews
Harold Sahib,
If William the Conqueror was a Celt, what was Harold of Wessex? Was he
a Celt too? How were Wm.'s Vitalstatistix so ample when he died? Did
he eat several boars at a sitting like Obelix? How did he win at
Hastings? Did he drink magic potion? How favoribly did Merlin compare
with Getafix? Why doesn't Aerospatiale produce Getafix engines? Did
the Normans in Sicily thump Romans like Asterix and Obelix did?
BTW, according to the Hindu right, Celts were Arya migrants from India
who taught grunting Europeans to speak, protoCeltic was broken
Sanskrit, and Druids were relabelled Brahmanas. So, for Valhalla's
sake, not another word about Celts; it's Aryas, Aryas all the way.
Aryana go bragh! Hic:-)
Sorry; it's all that madhu*.
* Mead in broken Sanskrit; it beats the heck out of that bitter junk
you force on yourself.
Namaste, Harold ji.
Harold
>
>
> no matter what argument you use, you run up with the problem attestation
> (somehow people with outlandish tehories neglect this very obvious
> consideration
You have a shortcoming in history I can see. Without an understanding
of history, linguistics etc is usually meaningless. Greek version of
many things is created to make themselves look like the centre, and
you are a victim of this. The Odyssey by Homer is actually just a copy
of Gilgamesh written by the Sumerians 2000 years before.
The Celts were in ALL of Europe before other IE people. This includes
Greece, which they occupied from almost 3000 BC. The Greeks were
actually living in Western Turkey before going to Greece. The Celts
were in almost all parts of Turkey, something you dont know. They
originated here and went to Europe from here. They returned as
Phrygians, Thracians, Galatians etc. many times to Turkey.
> : These places have numerous root words found in Celtic places
> : worldwide:
>
> : Kal, Fin, Fen, Tir, Tre, Kum, Can, Den, Don etc.
>
> fin- , fen-, tre- and tir- are found in words of greek origin.
Many "Greek" words are actually Celtic. The Greeks are a much later
people and borrowed much.
> : These Celtic names that I gave a long list of, form clusters and are
> : grouped together in different parts of the country. The meaning is
> : obvious, since in the southwest, northeast, centre and northwest have
> : words which are similar and Celtic. This is because of the presence of
> : the Hittites, Thracians, Galitians etc in these regions historically.
> : You must understand history to understand the placenames and then you
> : will see why a name like "banana belt", which may sound normal in
> : Turko-Ugric, is incorrect and childish.
>
>
>
> : On the Northeast Coast, Pontus, we have:
> : Kalkandere, Findikle, Trabzon, Fener, Tirebolu, Terme, Kelkit, Narman,
> : Askale.
>
> many of these words / names are of greek origin or partly so.
>
Just forget about the Greeks, you will understand more.
> : So the placenames are grouped in geographic regions. Not too many in
>
> yes. aside from the turkish names, the names reflect the previous
> languages of the region. so far only Galatia is celtic.
The Celts originated in Anatolia and left for Europe around 3000 to
2000 BC