Jewish founder of Turkey
Hakan Doganer
FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
January 28, 1994
WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
"It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
By Hillel Halkin
ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he
and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their
arrival, and asked what my second question was.
"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and
was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had
inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's
national hero.
Excited and Distressed
I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to
call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference
while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called
again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed.
"Exactly where did you get your information from?"
Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must
because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she
said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about
it. Could you please fax us what you know?"
I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously
by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
"Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
and founder of the modern Turkish state.
"Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the
belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
Secular Father
The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who
took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly
believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted
carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's
version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his
own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
"My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and
a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a
lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern
science.
"In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory
after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes,
and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla
Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...
"Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from
the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free
preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no
objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions
respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."
Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme
fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at
them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika,
close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali
Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian,
Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk"
calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding
Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To
the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his
racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins
beyond that of his parentage."
Learning Hebrew
Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have
asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing
in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of
Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew
in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in
Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper
publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in
Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:
" 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one
with the bottle of arrack?' "
" 'Yes.' "
" 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
" 'What's his name?' "
" 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
" 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him
I was startled by his piercing green eyes."
Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet
taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in
French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with
large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
"I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an
ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in
this country would do well to join his camp."
During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel,
Mustafa Kemal said at one point:
" 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old,
and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me
to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "
And Ben-Avi continues:
"He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space.
Then he recalled:
" 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
" 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
" 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our
glasses."
Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt
meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the
Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them
reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the
confession of faith:
"Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the
Lord our God, the Lord is one."
It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that
Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my
knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young
Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations
in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army
after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks
and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once
and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.
Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins.
Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered
close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World
War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a
reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering
to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by
the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical
commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by
Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi,
in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
'Saintly Offspring
"Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles
are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the
ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night
of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional birthday. ... It is believed that children
born of such unions are regarded as saintly."
Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason
to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and
continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes'
traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern
Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other
Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its
descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and
merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally
into Turkish life.
After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had
received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the
president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful,
however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The
Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim
fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of
Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the
'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim
sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it
would prefer to continue to be kept.
Jordi Sod
In article <67f8ie$pge$1...@news.ysu.edu>,
az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
>
>
> FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
>
> January 28, 1994
>
> WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
>
> "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
>
> By Hillel Halkin
Mr. Doganer has published this article and similar claims for
at least 2 years. He has this fixed idea, this monomania
about Ataturk's alleged Jewishness. All in all, Doganer seems
to dislike Ataturk, as well disliking Jews, or any Turk who
doesn't think like him. My guess is that he is a) a
fundamentalist Muslim, and b) frustrated man with nothing
better to do. I advise readers not to lose time with him,
unless you find him entertaining.
So long,
Jordi Sod
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
entr...@hotmail.com
>
> January 28, 1994
>
> WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
>
> "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
>
> By Hillel Halkin
....cut to save space......
No matter even what you wrote was true..No matter the ancesstors of a
great person who founded a republic..The important thing is that Mustafa
Kemal Ataturk is the founder of the secular Turkish Republic and we are
all proud of him.
Hakan Doganer
In a previous article, jo...@mail.internet.com.mx (Jordi Sod) says:
>In article <67f8ie$pge$1...@news.ysu.edu>,
> az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
>>
>>
>> FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
>>
>> January 28, 1994
>>
>> WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
>>
>> "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
>>
>> By Hillel Halkin
>
>Mr. Doganer has published this article and similar claims for
>at least 2 years. He has this fixed idea, this monomania
>about Ataturk's alleged Jewishness. All in all, Doganer seems
>to dislike Ataturk, as well disliking Jews, or any Turk who
These are not my claims. These claims are made by Jewish authors
based on evidence.. So according to your logic, these Jewish authors
have this fixed idea, and they all dislike Jews..
>doesn't think like him. My guess is that he is a) a
>fundamentalist Muslim, and b) frustrated man with nothing
>better to do. I advise readers not to lose time with him,
>unless you find him entertaining.
>
>
>So long,
>
>Jordi Sod
>
Hakki Kocabas
In message <<882625593...@dejanews.com>> Jordi Sod <jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> writes:
> az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
> >
> >
> > FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
> >
> > January 28, 1994
> >
> > WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> >
> > "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> >
> > By Hillel Halkin
>
> Mr. Doganer has published this article and similar claims for
> at least 2 years. He has this fixed idea, this monomania
> about Ataturk's alleged Jewishness. All in all, Doganer seems
> to dislike Ataturk, as well disliking Jews, or any Turk who
> fundamentalist Muslim, and b) frustrated man with nothing
> better to do. I advise readers not to lose time with him,
> unless you find him entertaining.
>
or a jew who has nothing solid to refute about the
jewishness of Ataturk....and also you think that
we judge postings here according to the owner of
the articles rather than the contend...
Doganer's article has a contend, yours has none...
all you do is guessing that Doganer is such or such...
you are not even entertaining;->RO(T/F)L
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Hakki Kocabas
In message <<882628605...@dejanews.com>> entr...@hotmail.com writes:
> No matter even what you wrote was true..No matter the ancesstors of a
> great person who founded a republic..The important thing is that Mustafa
> Kemal Ataturk is the founder of the secular Turkish Republic and we are
> all proud of him.
>
We are here to critisize his dirty deeds. Like his playing
fundamentalist muslim in one hand and drunkard doenmeh on
the other hand;-<
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <882628605...@dejanews.com>, <entr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <67f8ie$pge$1...@news.ysu.edu>,
> az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> January 28, 1994
>>
>> WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
>>
>> "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
>>
>> By Hillel Halkin
>
>
>
>No matter even what you wrote was true..No matter the ancesstors of a
>great person who founded a republic..The important thing is that Mustafa
>Kemal Ataturk is the founder of the secular Turkish Republic and we are
>all proud of him.
I am not proud of him. Who would be proud of a murderer?
entr...@hotmail.com
In article <c1.2bm.2JjZX3$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
mso...@mistik.express.net (Mustafa Soysal MS57) wrote:
>
> In article <882628605...@dejanews.com>, <entr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <67f8ie$pge$1...@news.ysu.edu>,
> > az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> January 28, 1994
> >>
> >> WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> >>
> >> "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> >>
> >> By Hillel Halkin
> >
> >
> >
> >No matter even what you wrote was true..No matter the ancesstors of a
> >great person who founded a republic..The important thing is that Mustafa
> >Kemal Ataturk is the founder of the secular Turkish Republic and we are
> >all proud of him.
>
> I am not proud of him. Who would be proud of a murderer?
You need to read some history to learn some basic factes. M.K. Atatürk is
NOT a murderer. He is one of the greatest characters in the World's
history and aldo admired by some other nations.
Anyway, for your and you-like's oponion about him, we have a saying in
Turkish :"istisnalar kaideyi bozmaz!"
entr...@hotmail.com
In article <882625593...@dejanews.com>,
Jordi Sod <jo...@mail.internet.com.mx> wrote:
>
> In article <67f8ie$pge$1...@news.ysu.edu>,
> az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer) wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > January 28, 1994
> >
> > WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> >
> > "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> >
> > By Hillel Halkin
>
> at least 2 years. He has this fixed idea, this monomania
> about Ataturk's alleged Jewishness. All in all, Doganer seems
> to dislike Ataturk, as well disliking Jews, or any Turk who
> doesn't think like him. My guess is that he is a) a
> fundamentalist Muslim, and b) frustrated man with nothing
> better to do. I advise readers not to lose time with him,
> unless you find him entertaining.
>
>
> Jordi Sod
No matter who were the ancesstors of that one of the greatest men in the
World's political history. Atatürk is the founder of today's secular
Republic Of Turkey and also admired by some other nations. Atatürk's
principles i the only wayor Turkish Republic to be a western-like
contemporary secular democratic country.
Last but not least, even if those claims were proved to be true, then
this means that Ataürk succeeded what Turkish-ancesstor-owners
failed..Atatürk succeeded to found the Turkish Republic! And this does
credit him more, instead of degrading him!
We all proud of Atatürk.
Burak Epir
Kimin nesidir az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer), a.k.a Muzo?
AmacI nedir?
KararI sizler verin...
-----Begin Text-----
Subject: Yeniler icin: DOGANER KIM?
SOC.CULTURE.TURKISH'i YENI okuyanlar icin:
SOC.CULTURE.TURKISH'de (=SCT'de) yazdigi yazilarla insanlarin kafasini
karistiran bir kisi vardir. Bu kisinin adi Hakan Doganer'dir.
Kullanidigi bazi isimler sunlardir: Nejat/Yavuz/Hakan Doganer.
Bakin Hakan Doganer hakkinda Coskun Susoy ve Hilmi Eren adli kisiler neler
yazmistir:
:-)Coskun Susoy (c...@matilda.vut.edu.au) wrote:
: Hilmi Eren (hilm...@jupiter.dsv.su.se) wrote:
> Hakan Doganer (az...@yfn.ysu.edu) wrote:
:-)***** Bir varmis bir yokmus...************
>Article: 66734 of soc.culture.turkish
>From: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
>Subject: Re: HAKAN DOGANER kim?
>Date: 29 Oct 1994 21:33:55 GMT
>Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
>Reply-To: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
>in a previous article, Hakan Doganer writes:
>Oglum Hilmi, senin bu iddialarin yeni degil ki..
>Bir sene once de Hakan Doganer'in ilgili universiteden yazan Yavuz
>oldugu veya Nejat oldugu iddia edilmisti.. Yeni bir sey iddia etmedin
>ki..
:-) ***Once Nejat Heykelkiran imzali Kelly accountundan yazan kisi vardi...***
> | From: KELLY%SUVM....@pucc.Princeton.EDU
> | Subject: Bir Not
:-) | ...[ metin aktarilmadi gerekirse aktaririm-c.s.]
> | Nejat
:-) ****Sonra gorevi Yavuz devraldi...******
> + Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 21:04:58 EST
> + Sender: The Turkish Electronic Mail List <T...@VM.USC.EDU>
> + From: Yavuz <GILS...@VM.UOGUELPH.CA>
:-) + ... [ Yazi arsivde. c.s.]
> +Hayat ve Hatiratim-3, Yazan: Dr. Riza Nur
> +Yayina hazirlayan: Abdurrahman Dilipak
> +Isaret Yayinlari, Istanbul, 1992. s. 376-377
:-) Sonra da...hakan doganer. s.c.t. de arz-i endam ettii.Kucuk bir hata
:-) ile ilk anon postinginde altina gercek adini da yanlislikla koydu...
:-) ama bunu aktarmiyacagim.:-)))
>From: an4...@anon.penet.fi (hakan doganer)
:-) [...]
>Hayat ve Hatiratim-3,
>Yazan: Dr. Riza Nur,
>Yayina Hazirlayan: Abdurrahman Dilipak,
>Isaret Yayinlari, Istanbul,
>1992, s. 234
>Hakan Doganer
:-) ********* Sonra bir gun hakan'i anon.administrator'e sikayet ettiler...
:-) o da cok kizdi ve...*****************************************
>From: an4...@anon.penet.fi (hakan doganer)
>Subject: Kemalistlere gore fikir ozgurlugu
> 2. Eger Kubilay efendi veya baska birisi tekrar anon. adminisrator'a
> sikayette bulunursa, sunu iyi bilin ki, 1. maddede belirttigim
> gibi Kemal alintilarini anon. olmayan baska bir hesaptan gecmeye
> devam etmekle kalmayip, ayni zamanda bu alintilari baska netlere
> de gecmeye baslayacagim. Mesela soc.culture.greek, soc.culture.islam,
> ve diger netler.. Boylece sadece sct'dekiler degil, basta Yunanlilar
> olmak uzere dunya alem Kemal'inizin homoseksuel iliskilerini ve
> daha baska marifetlerini okuyacaklar.. Hele hele Yunanlilarin
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> bu alintilari ne buyuk zevkle okuyacaklarini tahmin edersiniz
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> sanirim..
>
> Beni buna zorlamayin.. Karar sizin..
>
> Hakan Doganer
:-) ************** hakan'i bundan sonra sIkIstirmadilar ama hakan yine de
:-) ingilizce alintilari ile s.c.t. kanalini takip eden yunanlilari
:-) sevindirdi. yazilarini onun dedigi gibi zevkle okudular...************
>Oglum telnet diye bir sey var.. Bir adamin nereden login ettigine bakarak
>oradan yazdigini nasil bilirsin?.. Bak 3. account'dan bahsediyorsun
>(aslinda anon account'u unutmussun).. 3. account'un nereden oldugunu
>bulsan, 3. account'a 4. bir accountdan girmedigimi nereden bileceksin?..
>Hadi kumda oyna..
>not: Su Mao'nun ozel doktorunun BBC'de Mao'nun kadinlara duskunlugu ve
>sapikliklariyla ilgili yazini bir daha gecsene..
>hakan doganer
:-) ******** Sen de su yunan vazolarindaki resimleri anlattigin yaziyi
:-) tekrar gecsene. Romatizmalarima iyi gelmistiiii :-)))***
:Hakan Doganer bilindigi gibi
:az522.yfn.ysu.edu den yazmaktadir. Bu adres
:internet'e public accessdir-yani bir ucret
:karsliginda size de accountu verilir. Isminize
:bakmazlar.
:
:Account almadan once bir DENEME yapmak
:istiyorsaniz: telnet yfn.ysu.edu yapin
:ve login olarak: visitor yazin.
:
:Bu netin adi: YOUNGSTOWN FREE-NET dir.
: AREA CODE: 216
: VOICE PHONE (216) 742-3075
: Sistem adminin adi: l...@yfn.ysu.edu
: GUEST ACCESS: (216) 742-3072, log in as Visitor
: (The internet complete reference kitabinda alinmistir)
:
:Eger: finger ha...@yfn2.ysu.edu yazarsaniz Hakan'in
:bu accounta nereden girdigini gorursunuz. O adres
:gadwall.cs.uogue dir. Gerisini goremezsiniz.
:adresin tamami gadwall.cs.uoguelph.ca, Yani
:University of Guelph=uoguelph)
:
:
:
:Hilmi Eren
:-) Yil 1920...
:-) Dusman, Anadolu'nun icine dogru ilerlerken itilafci gazetesi yaziyor:
:-) "Dusmanlarimiz insaflidirlar, guven vericidirler. Baki dostlugu
:-) unutmazlar. Mutarekeden sonra da devlet icin bir hayat temin etmeleri
:-) kuvvetle mumkundu. Ancak o devlet millet dusmanlari (ittihatcilar)
:-) bizi yine rahat birakmadilar. Isimlerini degistirdiler ve "Milli
------------------------
:-) Teskilat" nami altinda yine ortaya atildilar. (...) Iste son saatleri
:-) yaklasti. Bugunlerde ne olacaksa olacak. Mutareke sartlarini tamamen
:-) icra edip hic degilse iyi niyet gostermemiz gerekir. Fakat butun
:-) bunlar Kuvayi Milliye denen maskaralik ortadan kalkmadan kabil
:-) olmaz." (23 mart 1920)
:-) "Milli Teskilat kumandanlarina hitap etmek tenezzulunde bulunmayi
:-) fazla goruruz, eskiya ile anlasabilmek bizim isimiz degildir.
:-) (...)Yunan hukumetinin Musluman halka karsi iyi niyet beslemekte
:-) oldugunu Avrupa huzurunda ispat etmeye calistigi bir zamanda bizim
:-) kendi milliyetcilerimiz Anadolu Muslumanlarinin mal ve canlarina her
:-) gun el uzatmaktadirlar."
I$te Muzo budur.
entr...@hotmail.com
Of course, fundamentalist muslim people do not like Atatürk..What he has
done were all against the wishes of the fundamentalist muslims.
Atatürk and contemporary thoughts spread out by him is a real threat for
the political situation of fundamentalism.
But, all the rest of the World knows who Atatürk is..his greatness...and
admire him as a political character.
Even if the claims that his ancesstors were Jewish were proved to be
true, this does not degrade him. On the contrary, this credits him more
and more! Because this means that Atatürk has succeeded what others have
failed. Atatürk founded the contemporary secular Turkish Republic.
FTC
I am in complete agreement with you. Ethnic or religious origins of a
person is totally irrelevant. What is important is their contributions to
well being of a nation. What is the ethnic basis of the Turks of
Anatolia. The number of Turks who settled in Anatolia was relatively
small. Over time they mixed with the native peoples of Anatolia and the
surrounding areas. This was very dominant in areas where there were alot
of conversion from Christianity. It is totally nonsense to look for
ratially "pure" individuals. It does not exist.
TOzturk
I will take good friend jews any time over back staber arab.
jews fight with turks arab join franc and englis duiring our independence
war.
Neriman Kaya
In article <19971222075...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, toz...@aol.com (TOzturk) wrote:
>Path: news.uact.net!news.ott.rns.net!news.rns.net!maggie.ionsys.com!news.corpcomm.net!news.gate.net!news.icix.net!uunet!in5.uu.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
>From: toz...@aol.com (TOzturk)
>Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
>Subject: Re: Jewish founder of Turkey
>Date: 22 Dec 1997 07:50:45 GMT
>Lines: 3
>Message-ID: <19971222075...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
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>Xref: news.uact.net soc.culture.turkish:216253
>Status: N
>
>I will take good friend jews any time over back staber arab.
>jews fight with turks arab join franc and englis duiring our independence
>war.
Those "good friend jews" you refer to will probably turn backstabber
quicker than anyone else in the world. They are one of the most
untrustable people in the world. They are all working for their
own good and nothing else. If they are a little friendly towards
the Turks now, it's because it's damned good for them. That's why.
It's certainly not because of some overwhelming love for the Turks.
Did you know that those "good friend jews" are trying to steal your
Turkish Hazar Empire from you? That's right. They keep calling the
Turkish Hazar Empire as the "Jewish Empire" because some of the Turkish
Kagans who founded, administered, ruled and protected the Turkish
Hazar Empire converted to Judaism at some time. Those "good friend
jews" are playing a very deceptive and dirty game on the Internet and
wherever else by referring to the Turkish Hazar Empire as the "Jewish
Hazar Empire". They're using a double-edged word like "jewish" which
could mean someone who is an ethnic jew OR someone who believes in
Judaism - to try and portray those Turkish Kagans of the Hazar Empire
who converted to Judaism (but of course remained ethnic Turks) as -
ethnic jews. That way, they can later (or now) claim that the Hazar
Empire was founded by Jews - which of course is a total falsehood.
Anyways, you get the picture. They're very sneaky people. They'll
put you to sleep in a minute. And then they'll do as they please.
So please be careful how you speak in the future. :-)
Kevin Brook
You are not telling the truth Polat. No one has ever claimed that the
founding kagans of the Khazar Empire were not Turkic. The founders were
definitely not Jewish, they were shamans. And they adopted Islam in 737
and Judaism in the 9th century.
Turks may belong to any religion -- including Judaism.
And neither I nor anyone else has said that these Turks became ethnic
Jews. Rather we have pointed out that the ethnic Turks intermarried
with ethnic Jews, as discussed in the 1982 book "Khazarian Hebrew
Documents of the Tenth Century" by Omeljan Pritsak and Norman Golb.
By calling Jews a "deceptive", "untrustable", and "sneaky people" who
are trying to "steal" "your" heritage, you have shown yourself to have
an undisguised hatred of Jews and Jewish Turks.
Mustafa Soysal MS57
Doesn't follow. But from your writings it follows that you are one of
those zionist pigs that are a shame for the ethnic Jews. I am not
surprized that one can come to such conclusions by having had contact
with zionist pigs.
Btw., there are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best.
It is more likely that those "Jewish Turks" are Judaic Jews pretending
to be Turks which has been previously called "Secret Jews".
And for myself, I am a Jew by race, but certainly not Judaic.
Hakki Kocabas
> are trying to "steal" "your" heritage, you have shown yourself to have
> an undisguised hatred of Jews and Jewish Turks.
here we go;-> Jewish Turks, perhaps Ataturk was one of those,
but then who is not jewish, and who is not turkish?!!
those jews once had claimed that even Abraham was a jews;-)))
I'll tell you what, every soul is born as muslim, then
some turned away from the right path of the God, became
jews, christians, bektasiis, doenmehs...and some stayed
muslims.
|-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
kanca
Kevin Brook:
[...]
>By calling Jews a "deceptive", "untrustable", and "sneaky people" who
>are trying to "steal" "your" heritage, you have shown yourself to have
>an undisguised hatred of Jews and Jewish Turks.
Easy now...
Those adjectives have not just been invented, have they?
Basri
FTC
> Doesn't follow. But from your writings it follows that you are one of
> those zionist pigs that are a shame for the ethnic Jews. I am not
> surprized that one can come to such conclusions by having had contact
> with zionist pigs.
Why do you hate jew so much? What did they do to you? Is this hatred
because you are a Turk or because you are a fanatic muslim. I am pretty
sure it is because of your fanatic muslim mentality. Jews and Turks had a
good relationship in history and it should stay so.
>
> Btw., there are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
> to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
> Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best.
Totally nonsense. Anybody who call himself or herself a Turk is a Turk.
It does not matter what kind of religion they have.
>
> It is more likely that those "Jewish Turks" are Judaic Jews pretending
> to be Turks which has been previously called "Secret Jews".
Total bullshit. Go read and learn your history and expand your narrow
mind alittle.
Mustafa Soysal MS57
In article <68lvqj$jvm$1...@earth.superlink.net>, FTC <F...@super.net> wrote:
>
>> Doesn't follow. But from your writings it follows that you are one of
>> those zionist pigs that are a shame for the ethnic Jews. I am not
>> surprized that one can come to such conclusions by having had contact
>> with zionist pigs.
>
>Why do you hate jew so much? What did they do to you? Is this hatred
I am a Jew by race. As for zionist pigs, there is a long list of things
they have done to me, and others. I have previously posted them on
here, yet I do pray that they find the creators way and be healed from
their sickness.
>because you are a Turk or because you are a fanatic muslim. I am pretty
>sure it is because of your fanatic muslim mentality. Jews and Turks had a
>good relationship in history and it should stay so.
It shows that you are a zionist pig. (Animal farm). You are totally
wrong, because I am a Christian.
>>
>> Btw., there are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
>> to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
>> Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best.
>
>Totally nonsense. Anybody who call himself or herself a Turk is a Turk.
>It does not matter what kind of religion they have.
That's what the zionist pigs would like to have, to have themselves
called a Turk. Btw., what you replied with has nothing to do with what
you responded to. I said
"There are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best."
>
>>
>> It is more likely that those "Jewish Turks" are Judaic Jews pretending
>> to be Turks which has been previously called "Secret Jews".
>
>Total bullshit. Go read and learn your history and expand your narrow
>mind alittle.
Which zionist version of government history would you recommend you pig?
FTC
In article <c1.2bm.2JsyjS$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
mso...@mistik.express.net (Mustafa Soysal MS57) wrote:
> >Why do you hate jew so much? What did they do to you? Is this hatred
>
> I am a Jew by race. As for zionist pigs, there is a long list of things
> they have done to me, and others. I have previously posted them on
> here, yet I do pray that they find the creators way and be healed from
> their sickness.
I don't know much about jewish sicknesses but I sure know about your
sickness. YOU ARE CERTAINLY SICK.
>
> >because you are a Turk or because you are a fanatic muslim. I am pretty
> >sure it is because of your fanatic muslim mentality. Jews and Turks had a
> >good relationship in history and it should stay so.
>
> It shows that you are a zionist pig. (Animal farm). You are totally
> wrong, because I am a Christian.
So what. I am muslim. What difference does it make. Fanaticism is same
in any religion and that is absolutely clear from your reactions.
> >> Btw., there are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
> >> to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
> >> Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best.
> >
> >Totally nonsense. Anybody who call himself or herself a Turk is a Turk.
> >It does not matter what kind of religion they have.
>
> That's what the zionist pigs would like to have, to have themselves
> called a Turk. Btw., what you replied with has nothing to do with what
> you responded to. I said
Still bullshit. Imagination of your sick mind.
>
> "There are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
> to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
> Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best."
>
> >
> >>
> >> It is more likely that those "Jewish Turks" are Judaic Jews pretending
> >> to be Turks which has been previously called "Secret Jews".
> >
> >Total bullshit. Go read and learn your history and expand your narrow
> >mind alittle.
>
> Which zionist version of government history would you recommend you pig?
Well! You are right. Certainly not the history you imagine.
entr...@hotmail.com
In article <27982.10...@kcbbs.gen.nz>,
ha...@kcbbs.gen.nz (Hakki Kocabas) wrote:
>
> > are trying to "steal" "your" heritage, you have shown yourself to have
> > an undisguised hatred of Jews and Jewish Turks.
>
> but then who is not jewish, and who is not turkish?!!
> those jews once had claimed that even Abraham was a jews;-)))
> I'll tell you what, every soul is born as muslim,
Very very funny..to hear tahat..
Who said so?
Where is it written? In Quran whose author is Mohammad? Which part?
then
> some turned away from the right path of the God, became
> jews, christians, bektasiis, doenmehs...and some stayed
> muslims..
...who composed and live in the worst countries like Algeria, Afganistan,
Iran, Irak, Sudan and some others more..
A question: Why did God allow them to turn away from the right path of
his?
Every religion is a collection of old fashioned legends and stories.
> |-| /-\ |-< |-< |||
Benjamin Goldsteinski
jews are dirty animals, all should be killed...
have a happy life :)
---
BenLevy
Kevin Brook wrote:
>
> You are not telling the truth Polat. No one has ever claimed that the
> founding kagans of the Khazar Empire were not Turkic. The founders were
> definitely not Jewish, they were shamans. And they adopted Islam in 737
> and Judaism in the 9th century.
>
> Turks may belong to any religion -- including Judaism.
> And neither I nor anyone else has said that these Turks became ethnic
> Jews. Rather we have pointed out that the ethnic Turks intermarried
> with ethnic Jews, as discussed in the 1982 book "Khazarian Hebrew
> Documents of the Tenth Century" by Omeljan Pritsak and Norman Golb.
>
> By calling Jews a "deceptive", "untrustable", and "sneaky people" who
Benjamin Goldsteinski
i asked a jew what his NATIONALITY was ...
he answered : JEWiSH !!!
NATIONALITY JEWiSH ???
Jews are jews no matter where they live or die.
i wonder who the jews of turkey would support if there
happened to be a war between israel and turkey ?
ask the many jews of turkey who run from doing time in the
turkish army but give up alot of things to be in the israeli army.
HYPOCRITES r what we r.
and there is nothing you can do about it :)
---
BenLevy
FTC wrote:
> Why do you hate jew so much? What did they do to you? Is this hatred
> because you are a Turk or because you are a fanatic muslim. I am pretty
> sure it is because of your fanatic muslim mentality. Jews and Turks had a
> good relationship in history and it should stay so.
> >
> > Btw., there are no Jewish Turks. There may be Judaic Turks subscribing
> > to Judaism, but why? Judaism doesn't accept anyone who doesn't have a
> > Jewish race, they could be gentiles at best.
>
> Totally nonsense. Anybody who call himself or herself a Turk is a Turk.
> It does not matter what kind of religion they have.
>
> >
elite
lutfu
They asked a jew , what he knew abt
ATATURK ,founder of modern Turkey.
after a slight pause he answered.
- Well whatever he sold it to you , I can
sell it cheaper.
lutfu
sorry but inevitable
entr...@hotmail.com
In article <34B46F1D...@hotmail.com>,
Nationality is no means as it was many years ago..
Nationality is what writes on your passport.
Your nation is where you work, eat, sleep..where you live.
And do not worry..
There will never be no war between Turks and Jews, the two powerful allied
nations in the Middle-East zone..