"Atatürk was a Jew" = an arab lie

[Atill...@hotmail.com]

HE WAS NO JEW!

SORRY GUYS..HE WAS PURE TURK, SO HE DID NOT LIKE YOUR CULTURE.

LIKE WE ALL TURKS DO..

LEAVE US ALONE WE HAVE NOTHING TOGETHER WITH ARABS EXCEPT THE RELIGION.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

[irgun1943]

The one who made the claim was an ARAB. He was atrying to insult Israel.

If you have a problem, take it up with your Moslem "brother"

irgun1943

Atill...@hotmail.com wrote in article
<6fst7l$da7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <01bd5d80$994d02c0$6be0fed0@itjfvkli>,

irgun1943 <irg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The one who made the claim was an ARAB. He was atrying to insult Israel.
>
> If you have a problem, take it up with your Moslem "brother"
>
> irgun1943

------- start of forwarded message -------
* Path: mistik!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!az522
* From: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
* Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
* Subject: M. Kemal confesses his Jewishness
* Date: 16 Mar 1996 11:00:17 GMT
* Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
* Lines: 266
* Message-ID: <4ie701$i...@news.ysu.edu>
* Reply-To: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
* NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn2.ysu.edu
*
*
*
*
* I am very grateful to both David Davidian and Mustafa Soysal for
* the following article. D. Davidian provided the article to M. Soysal,
* and M. Soysal informed me of the article.
*
*
* **********
*
*
* FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
*
* January 28, 1994
*
*
* WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
*
* "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
*
* By Hillel Halkin
*
* ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
* over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
* Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
* first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
* whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
* commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
*
* Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he
* and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their
* arrival, and asked what my second question was.
*
* "Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and
* was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
*
* "Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had
* inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's
* national hero.
*
*
* Excited and Distressed
*
* I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to
* call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference
* while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called
* again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed.
* "Exactly where did you get your information from?"
*
* Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
*
* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must
* because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she
* said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about
* it. Could you please fax us what you know?"
*
* I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
*
* Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
* main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
* lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously
* by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
* none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
* in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
* Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
*
* "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
* and founder of the modern Turkish state.
*
* "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
* Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the
* belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
* came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
* give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
* sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
*
*
* Secular Father
*
* The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who
* took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly
* believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted
* carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's
* version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his
* own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
*
* "My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and
* a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a
* lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern
* science.
*
* "In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory
* after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes,
* and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla
* Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...
*
* "Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from
* the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free
* preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no
* objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions
* respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."
*
* Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme
* fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at
* them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika,
* close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali
* Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian,
* Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk"
* calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding
* Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To
* the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his
* racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins
* beyond that of his parentage."
*
*
* Learning Hebrew
*
* Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have
* asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing
* in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of
* Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew
* in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in
* Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper
* publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in
* Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:
* " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one
* with the bottle of arrack?' "
*
* " 'Yes.' "
*
* " 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
*
* " 'What's his name?' "
*
* " 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
*
* " 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him
* I was startled by his piercing green eyes."
*
* Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet
* taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in
* French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with
* large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
*
* "I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an
* ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in
* this country would do well to join his camp."
*
* During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel,
* Mustafa Kemal said at one point:
*
* " 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old,
* and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me
* to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "
*
* And Ben-Avi continues:
*
* "He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space.
* Then he recalled:
*
* " 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
*
* " 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
*
* " 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our
* glasses."
*
* Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt
* meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the
* Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them
* reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the
* confession of faith:
*
* "Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the
* Lord our God, the Lord is one."
*
* It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that
* Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my
* knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young
* Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations
* in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army
* after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks
* and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once
* and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.
*
* Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins.
* Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered
* close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World
* War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a
* reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering
* to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by
* the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical
* commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by
* Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi,
* in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
*
*
* 'Saintly Offspring
*
* "Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles
* are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the
* ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night
* of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children
* born of such unions are regarded as saintly."
*
* Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason
* to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and
* continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes'
* traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern
* Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other
* Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its
* descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and
* merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally
* into Turkish life.
*
* After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had
* received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the
* president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful,
* however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The
* Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim
* fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of
* Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the
* 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim
* sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it
* would prefer to continue to be kept.
*
*
* *****
*
*
* Ayni hususa Abdurrahman Dilipak soyle temas ediyor:
*
*
* Cumhuriyete Giden Yol
* Abdurrahman Dilipak
* 1991, s. 13-14
*
* UluG iGdemir "Ataturk'un Yasami" ni konu aldigi kitabinin 1. cildinin
* 23. sayfasinda Mustafa Kemal'in 1911'de Libya'ya giderken Kudus'e
* ugradigindan bahisle su hatiraya yer vermektedir: "8 Eylul 1911'de
* Istanbul'dan yola cikan Mustafa Kemal, 19 Ekim'de Iskenderiye'ye
* vardi. Bu yolculuk esnasinda Mustafa Kemal'in Kudus'e de ugradigi ve
* orada Ibrani dilini yeniden konusma dili haline getirme cabasi icinde
* bulunan ve Ibranice'nin Buyuk Sozlugu'nu meydana getiren Elizar-Ben Yehuda
* ile gorustugu anlasiliyor."
*
* Adi gecen eserde, Mustafa Kemal'in o zamanlar Yehuda'ya "Ibrani yazisinin
* guc bir yazi oldugunu, bunun yerine Latin harflerini kabul etmelerinin
* yerinde olacagini, eger kendisi Turkiye'de soz sahibi olursa Arap harfleri
* yerine Latin harflerini kabul ettirmeye calisacagini" soylediginden
* bahsedilmektedir.
* .....
* Elizar-Ben Yehuda'nin oglu itamar Ben-Avi hatiralarinda uzun uzun
* Mustafa Kemal'le babasinin ve kendisinin tanismasi ve konusmalarindan
* sozeder. Ben-Avi'ye Mustafa Kemal o zaman ilgilendigi konulari ve
* planlarini anlatir. Hatta Kudus'de bir otel odasinda bu yahudi ile
* konusurken onlara Enver ve Cemal Pasalara olan guvensizliginden
* sozetmektedir. itamar Ben-Avi, Mustafa Kemal'le tanisip konustuktan sonra
* "Turkiye icin daha guzel bir istikbal umutlarinin kapisinin acildigini ve
* Mustafa Kemal'in anlattiklarina, bir Osmanli tebasi olarak kendisinin de
* yurekten katildigini" ifade eder.
*
* Kudus'den Ingilizlerin haberi olmadan gizlice Iskenderiye'ye gecerken
* yaptigi bu gorusmelerin Yahudiler tarafindan Ingilizlere ulastirilmis
* olmasi gerekir. Ancak bu konudaki Ingiliz belgeleri henuz acik olmadigi
* icin fazla bir bilgiye sahip degiliz !
------- end of forwarded message -------

[OGUZ]

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
> * FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.

#1 Notice the Source "Jewish Newspaper in New York"...

> *
> * WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> *
> * "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> *
> * By Hillel Halkin
> *
> * ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
> * over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
> * Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
> * first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
> * whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
> * commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
> *

> * Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
> * main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
> * lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously

<unnecessary cut text>

#2 Ataturk & family denied any such accusations and no writers ever took
any of the accusations seriously. Only modern Arab-muslim-philes bring up
this ridiculous claim to discredit the Staunch PRO-TURK founder of
Turkiye, ATATURK.

> * by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
> * none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
> * in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
> * Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:

#3 The next reference is the "ISRAELI ENCYLOPEDIA"!!! :)))

> * "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
> * and founder of the modern Turkish state.
> *
> * "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
> * Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the

#4 NOTICE, that it says as well that there is "NO PROOF" that Ataturk is a
"donme Jew"

I'm still baffled with their weak attempts to discredit the Greatest Turk
of the Century... I think it's time you two clowns gathered up you 9Volt
brain power and rethink.

> * belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
> * came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
> * give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
> * sent at his demand to study in a military academy."

<text about the "Donme" history that Mustafa Soysal & Hakan Doganer
love so much and which have no relevance to Mustafa
Kemal Ataturk was cut>

\\|//
(o o)
---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
| OGUZ |
| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
--------------------------------

[irgun1943]

Dear Mr. Oguz,
Your argument is unclear.
If you're trying to prove that Kemal Ataturk was not a Jew, I agree.
I'm a Jew. I don't claim him.
The question is: Why are the Arabs so full of hate for "the Other"?
Just because he belongs to another Nation? You might as well hate the whole
world.
I'm a proud son of Israel. I don't go around pointing to fellow
Israelis that belong to another political party or point of view and say
"He's a Turk"
Why do so many Arabs write things that have no proof except their own
fantasies?
irgun1943

OGUZ <so...@iupui.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.HPP.3.96.98040...@Nash.iupui.edu>...

> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:

> > * FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
>
>

> #1 Notice the Source "Jewish Newspaper in New York"...
>
>

> > *
> > * WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> > *
> > * "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> > *
> > * By Hillel Halkin
> > *
> > * ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
> > * over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president
Ezer
> > * Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the

> > * first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
> > * whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
> > * commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
> > *

> > * Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in
the
> > * main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in
his
> > * lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken
seriously
>

> <unnecessary cut text>
>
> #2 Ataturk & family denied any such accusations and no writers ever took
> any of the accusations seriously. Only modern Arab-muslim-philes bring up
> this ridiculous claim to discredit the Staunch PRO-TURK founder of
> Turkiye, ATATURK.
>

> > * by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,

> > * none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference
to it
> > * in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli

> > * Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
>

> #3 The next reference is the "ISRAELI ENCYLOPEDIA"!!! :)))
>
>

> > * "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and
statesman
> > * and founder of the modern Turkish state.
> > *
> > * "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
> > * Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of
the
>
>

> #4 NOTICE, that it says as well that there is "NO PROOF" that Ataturk is
a
> "donme Jew"
>
>
> I'm still baffled with their weak attempts to discredit the Greatest Turk
> of the Century... I think it's time you two clowns gathered up you 9Volt
> brain power and rethink.
>
>

> > * belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his
family
> > * came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's
desire to
> > * give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he
was
> > * sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
>

[Reuven Singer]

Actually since we all agree that Ataturk was a great leader who brought
Turkey into the 20th century, it would be rather a compliment if he were of
Jewish descent. Probably not true though. Pity

[-Surensoy,E.]

Some anti-Turkish hate mongering idiots some of whom have been
born and raised in Turkiye, by saying "Ataturk was a Jew", think
they are insulting Turks and Turkiye; these idiots do not realize
the fact that attemping to insult someone by claiming that that
person is "a Jew" is nothing but a racism and against to basic
human rights and freedoms.

../..

In article <6fu0mo$j6d$1...@news.netvision.net.il>,

[-Surensoy,E.]

Some anti-Turkish hate mongering idiots some of whom have been
born and raised in Turkiye, by saying "Ataturk was a Jew", think
they are insulting Turks and Turkiye; these idiots do not realize
the fact that attemping to insult someone by claiming that that
person is "a Jew" is nothing but a racism and against to basic
human rights and freedoms.

../..

In article <01bd5d80$994d02c0$6be0fed0@itjfvkli),
irgun1943 <irg...@earthlink.net) wrote:
) The one who made the claim was an ARAB. He was atrying to insult Israel.
)
) If you have a problem, take it up with your Moslem "brother"
)
) irgun1943
)
)Atill...@hotmail.com wrote in article
)<6fst7l$da7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
)> HE WAS NO JEW!
)>
)> SORRY GUYS..HE WAS PURE TURK, SO HE DID NOT LIKE YOUR CULTURE.
)>
)> LIKE WE ALL TURKS DO..
)>
)> LEAVE US ALONE WE HAVE NOTHING TOGETHER WITH ARABS EXCEPT THE RELIGION.
)>
)> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
)> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
)>

[-Surensoy,E.]

Some anti-Turkish hate mongering idiots some of whom have been
born and raised in Turkiye, by saying "Ataturk was a Jew", think
they are insulting Turks and Turkiye; these idiots do not realize
the fact that attemping to insult someone by claiming that that
person is "a Jew" is nothing but a racism and against to basic
human rights and freedoms.

../..

In article <01bd5d99$a0313200$49072599@itjfvkli),
irgun1943 <irg...@earthlink.net) wrote:
)Dear Mr. Oguz,
) Your argument is unclear.
) If you're trying to prove that Kemal Ataturk was not a Jew, I agree.
)I'm a Jew. I don't claim him.
) The question is: Why are the Arabs so full of hate for "the Other"?
)Just because he belongs to another Nation? You might as well hate the whole
)world.
) I'm a proud son of Israel. I don't go around pointing to fellow
)Israelis that belong to another political party or point of view and say
)"He's a Turk"
) Why do so many Arabs write things that have no proof except their own
)fantasies?
) irgun1943
)
)OGUZ <so...@iupui.edu> wrote in article
)<Pine.HPP.3.96.98040...@Nash.iupui.edu>...
)> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
)> > * FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
)>
)>
)> #1 Notice the Source "Jewish Newspaper in New York"...
)>
)>
)> > *
)> > * WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
)> > *
)> > * "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
)> > *
)> > * By Hillel Halkin
)> > *
)> > * ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
)> > * over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president
)Ezer
)> > * Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
)
)> > * first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
)> > * whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
)> > * commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
)> > *
)> > * Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in
)the
)> > * main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in
)his
)> > * lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken
)seriously
)>
)> <unnecessary cut text>
)>
)> #2 Ataturk & family denied any such accusations and no writers ever took
)> any of the accusations seriously. Only modern Arab-muslim-philes bring up
)> this ridiculous claim to discredit the Staunch PRO-TURK founder of
)> Turkiye, ATATURK.
)>
)> > * by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
)
)> > * none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference
)to it
)> > * in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
)
)> > * Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
)>
)> #3 The next reference is the "ISRAELI ENCYLOPEDIA"!!! :)))
)>
)>
)> > * "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and
)statesman
)> > * and founder of the modern Turkish state.
)> > *
)> > * "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
)> > * Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of
)the
)>
)>
)> #4 NOTICE, that it says as well that there is "NO PROOF" that Ataturk is
)a
)> "donme Jew"
)>
)>
)> I'm still baffled with their weak attempts to discredit the Greatest Turk
)> of the Century... I think it's time you two clowns gathered up you 9Volt
)> brain power and rethink.
)>
)>
)> > * belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his
)family
)> > * came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's
)desire to
)> > * give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he
)was
)> > * sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
)>
)> <text about the "Donme" history that Mustafa Soysal & Hakan Doganer
)> love so much and which have no relevance to Mustafa
)> Kemal Ataturk was cut>
)>
)> \\|//
)> (o o)
)> ---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
)> | OGUZ |
)> | http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
)> --------------------------------
)>
)>
)>

[-Surensoy,E.]

Some anti-Turkish hate mongering idiots some of whom have been
born and raised in Turkiye, by saying "Ataturk was a Jew", think
they are insulting Turks and Turkiye; these idiots do not realize
the fact that attemping to insult someone by claiming that that
person is "a Jew" is nothing but a racism and against to basic
human rights and freedoms.

In article <c1.2bm.2KvwTh$Q...@freedom2.express.net),
Mustafa Soysal MS57 <mso...@mistik.express.net) wrote:
)In article <01bd5d80$994d02c0$6be0fed0@itjfvkli>,
)irgun1943 <irg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
)> The one who made the claim was an ARAB. He was atrying to insult Israel.
)>
)> If you have a problem, take it up with your Moslem "brother"
)>
)> irgun1943
)
)
)------- start of forwarded message -------
)* Path: mistik!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!az522
)* From: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
)* Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
)* Subject: M. Kemal confesses his Jewishness
)* Date: 16 Mar 1996 11:00:17 GMT
)* Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
)* Lines: 266
)* Message-ID: <4ie701$i...@news.ysu.edu>
)* Reply-To: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
)* NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn2.ysu.edu
)*
)*
)*
)*
)* I am very grateful to both David Davidian and Mustafa Soysal for
)* the following article. D. Davidian provided the article to M. Soysal,
)* and M. Soysal informed me of the article.
)*
)*
)* **********
)*
)*
)* FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
)*
)* January 28, 1994
)*
)*
)* WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
)*
)* "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
)*
)* By Hillel Halkin
)*
)* ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
)* over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
)* Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
)* first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
)* whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
)* commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
)*
)* Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he
)* and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their
)* arrival, and asked what my second question was.
)*
)* "Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and
)* was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"
)*
)* "Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had
)* inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's
)* national hero.
)*
)*
)* Excited and Distressed
)*
)* I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to
)* call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference
)* while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called
)* again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed.
)* "Exactly where did you get your information from?"
)*
)* Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?
)*
)* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must
)* because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she
)* said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about
)* it. Could you please fax us what you know?"
)*
)* I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.
)*
)* Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
)* main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
)* lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously
)* by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
)* none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
)* in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
)* Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
)*
)* "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
)* and founder of the modern Turkish state.
)*
)* "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
)* Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the
)* belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
)* came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
)* give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
)* sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
)*
)*
)* Secular Father
)*
)* The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who
)* took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly
)* believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted
)* carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's
)* version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his
)* own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:
)*
)* "My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and
)* a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a
)* lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern
)* science.
)*
)* "In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory
)* after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes,
)* and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla
)* Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...
)*
)* "Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from
)* the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free
)* preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no
)* objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions
)* respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."
)*
)* Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme
)* fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at
)* them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika,
)* close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali
)* Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian,
)* Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk"
)* calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding
)* Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To
)* the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his
)* racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins
)* beyond that of his parentage."
)*
)*
)* Learning Hebrew
)*
)* Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have
)* asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing
)* in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of
)* Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew
)* in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in
)* Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper
)* publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in
)* Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:
)* " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one
)* with the bottle of arrack?' "
)*
)* " 'Yes.' "
)*
)* " 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "
)*
)* " 'What's his name?' "
)*
)* " 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
)*
)* " 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him
)* I was startled by his piercing green eyes."
)*
)* Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet
)* taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in
)* French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with
)* large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:
)*
)* "I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an
)* ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in
)* this country would do well to join his camp."
)*
)* During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel,
)* Mustafa Kemal said at one point:
)*
)* " 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old,
)* and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me
)* to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "
)*
)* And Ben-Avi continues:
)*
)* "He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space.
)* Then he recalled:
)*
)* " 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'
)*
)* " 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'
)*
)* " 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our
)* glasses."
)*
)* Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt
)* meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the
)* Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them
)* reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the
)* confession of faith:
)*
)* "Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the
)* Lord our God, the Lord is one."
)*
)* It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that
)* Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my
)* knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young
)* Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations
)* in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army
)* after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks
)* and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once
)* and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.
)*
)* Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins.
)* Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered
)* close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World
)* War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a
)* reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering
)* to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by
)* the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical
)* commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by
)* Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi,
)* in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":
)*
)*
)* 'Saintly Offspring
)*
)* "Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles
)* are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the
)* ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night
)* of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children
)* born of such unions are regarded as saintly."
)*
)* Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason
)* to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and
)* continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes'
)* traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern
)* Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other
)* Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its
)* descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and
)* merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally
)* into Turkish life.
)*
)* After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had
)* received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the
)* president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful,
)* however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The
)* Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim
)* fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of
)* Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the
)* 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim
)* sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it
)* would prefer to continue to be kept.
)*
)*
)* *****
)*
)*
)* Ayni hususa Abdurrahman Dilipak soyle temas ediyor:
)*
)*
)* Cumhuriyete Giden Yol
)* Abdurrahman Dilipak
)* 1991, s. 13-14
)*
)* UluG iGdemir "Ataturk'un Yasami" ni konu aldigi kitabinin 1. cildinin
)* 23. sayfasinda Mustafa Kemal'in 1911'de Libya'ya giderken Kudus'e
)* ugradigindan bahisle su hatiraya yer vermektedir: "8 Eylul 1911'de
)* Istanbul'dan yola cikan Mustafa Kemal, 19 Ekim'de Iskenderiye'ye
)* vardi. Bu yolculuk esnasinda Mustafa Kemal'in Kudus'e de ugradigi ve
)* orada Ibrani dilini yeniden konusma dili haline getirme cabasi icinde
)* bulunan ve Ibranice'nin Buyuk Sozlugu'nu meydana getiren Elizar-Ben Yehuda
)* ile gorustugu anlasiliyor."
)*
)* Adi gecen eserde, Mustafa Kemal'in o zamanlar Yehuda'ya "Ibrani yazisinin
)* guc bir yazi oldugunu, bunun yerine Latin harflerini kabul etmelerinin
)* yerinde olacagini, eger kendisi Turkiye'de soz sahibi olursa Arap harfleri
)* yerine Latin harflerini kabul ettirmeye calisacagini" soylediginden
)* bahsedilmektedir.
)* .....
)* Elizar-Ben Yehuda'nin oglu itamar Ben-Avi hatiralarinda uzun uzun
)* Mustafa Kemal'le babasinin ve kendisinin tanismasi ve konusmalarindan
)* sozeder. Ben-Avi'ye Mustafa Kemal o zaman ilgilendigi konulari ve
)* planlarini anlatir. Hatta Kudus'de bir otel odasinda bu yahudi ile
)* konusurken onlara Enver ve Cemal Pasalara olan guvensizliginden
)* sozetmektedir. itamar Ben-Avi, Mustafa Kemal'le tanisip konustuktan sonra
)* "Turkiye icin daha guzel bir istikbal umutlarinin kapisinin acildigini ve
)* Mustafa Kemal'in anlattiklarina, bir Osmanli tebasi olarak kendisinin de
)* yurekten katildigini" ifade eder.
)*
)* Kudus'den Ingilizlerin haberi olmadan gizlice Iskenderiye'ye gecerken
)* yaptigi bu gorusmelerin Yahudiler tarafindan Ingilizlere ulastirilmis
)* olmasi gerekir. Ancak bu konudaki Ingiliz belgeleri henuz acik olmadigi
)* icin fazla bir bilgiye sahip degiliz !
)------- end of forwarded message -------
)
)
)>
)>Atill...@hotmail.com wrote in article

)><6fst7l$da7$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
)>> HE WAS NO JEW!
)>>

)>> SORRY GUYS..HE WAS PURE TURK, SO HE DID NOT LIKE YOUR CULTURE.
)>>
)>> LIKE WE ALL TURKS DO..
)>>
)>> LEAVE US ALONE WE HAVE NOTHING TOGETHER WITH ARABS EXCEPT THE RELIGION.
)>>
)>> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
)>> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
)>>
)
)

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

Turkish Army is still under occupation of secret Jews.
What we can expect from secret Jews who controlling Turkish Army?
Ataturk was a secret Jew, whose ancestors were given shelter
by Osmani Caliph after Spanish inquisition. And those secret Jews
gave the price to World Muslims by destroying the Caliphate after
Sultan Abdul Hamid refused to allow Jewish State in Palestine.

Caliphate is a must for this world as there will be no restriction of
passport and visa, where no people can be a hostage within a small
border, where a few families will become owner of billion of dollars
wealth, where rule of law will be imposed by those few families for
their personal benefit. So the World must know how human right of
billions of people violated by the treacherous way when 1300 years old
Caliphate was abolished in 1924. We all know about the role played by
Lawrence of Arab; but many of us was ignorant about the following:
"the new Turkish State is a state of the people and a state by the
people."
But why Ataturk abolished Khilafat, which was the political System of
majority people of Turkey?
Ataturk was a Jew, secret Jew and the greatest enemy of Islam .as he
abolished the
Caliphate and suppressed the Muslims.

Here is a quotation from Joachim Prinz's 'The Secret Jews'; page 122: I
did not make the story nor any member of World Muslim. From the same
book written by a Jew the World can know how Jew lived under Caliphate,
Spain to India and Yemen to Bosnia and how Jews were placed in high
post. But what we know now is that the World Muslims who protected the
Jews from inquisition after inquisition by European Christians; were
fooled and by the same Jews Caliphate were abolished.

"The revolt of he Young Turks in 1908 against the authoritarian regime
of Sultan Abdul Hamid Khan began among the intellectuals of Salonika.
Among the leaders of the revolution which resulted in a more modern
government in Turkey were Djavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Both were ardent
doenmeh (secret Jew). Djavid Bey became minister of finance; Mustafa
Kemal became the leader of the new regime and he adopted the name of
Ataturk. His opponents tried to use his doenmeh background to unseat
him, but without success. Too many of the Young Turks in the newly
formed revolutionary Cabinet prayed to Allah, but had as their real
prophet Shabtai Zvi, the Messiah of Smyrna."

Ataturk’s ancestors, who came from Spain after the fall of Islam;
were given shelter under the Caliphate. You can get the above book
from Jewish division
of New York Public Library.

There must be the Caliphate if possible within few days, few months and
in fact we don't bother about those illegal immigrants and it is future
Caliph who can decide about them and not London, Paris, Moscow or
Washington as World Muslims never intend to interfere about policies in
those Capitals.

OGUZ wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:

> > * FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
>

> #1 Notice the Source "Jewish Newspaper in New York"...
>

> > *
> > * WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> > *
> > * "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> > *
> > * By Hillel Halkin
> > *
> > * ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
> > * over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
> > * Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
> > * first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
> > * whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
> > * commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
> > *

> > * Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
> > * main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
> > * lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously
>

> <unnecessary cut text>

>
> #2 Ataturk & family denied any such accusations and no writers ever took

> any of the accusations seriously. Only modern Arab-muslim-philes bring up

> this ridiculous claim to discredit the Staunch PRO-TURK founder of

> Turkiye, ATATURK.

>
> > * by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
> > * none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
> > * in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
> > * Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
>

> #3 The next reference is the "ISRAELI ENCYLOPEDIA"!!! :)))
>

> > * "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
> > * and founder of the modern Turkish state.
> > *
> > * "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
> > * Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the
>

> #4 NOTICE, that it says as well that there is "NO PROOF" that Ataturk is a
> "donme Jew"

>
> I'm still baffled with their weak attempts to discredit the Greatest Turk

> of the Century... I think it's time you two clowns gathered up you 9Volt

> brain power and rethink.

>
> > * belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
> > * came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
> > * give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
> > * sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
>

> <text about the "Donme" history that Mustafa Soysal & Hakan Doganer

> love so much and which have no relevance to Mustafa

[Can Subaykan]

I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere and
respect him for what he has done for the Turkish Republic.

I would not be bothered by the thought of a "Jew in our midst" nor would
it bother me if Jews claimed Ataturk as one of their own. He is our hero
not because of his bloodline but because of his achievements.

His words "Peace at home, peace in the world" should inspire us.

As a Turk, I cannot say too much about the feelings between Jews and
Arabs, but what I can say is this; I have met many Arabs most of whom I
found to be very good people, some of whom became very dear friends of
mine. I have also met many Jews most of whom I found to be very good
people, some of whom became very dear friends of mine.

It bothers me to hear about any anti-Arab or anti-Jewish sentiment from
Turks, and vice versa.

Peace - BarI$ - Salam - Shalom

Can Subaykan

(*

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

from Jewish division of New York Public Library between 5th and 6th
Avenue.

There must be the Caliphate if possible within few days, few months and
in fact we don't bother about those illegal immigrants and it is future
Caliph who can decide about them and not London, Paris, Moscow or
Washington as World Muslims never intend to interfere about policies in
those Capitals.

For detail please visit my home page on Khilafah:

http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

OGUZ wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:

> > * FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.
>

> #1 Notice the Source "Jewish Newspaper in New York"...
>

> > *
> > * WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL
> > *
> > * "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed
> > *
> > * By Hillel Halkin
> > *
> > * ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said
> > * over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer
> > * Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the
> > * first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was
> > * whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony
> > * commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
> > *

> > * Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the
> > * main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his
> > * lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously
>

> <unnecessary cut text>
>
> #2 Ataturk & family denied any such accusations and no writers ever took
> any of the accusations seriously. Only modern Arab-muslim-philes bring up
> this ridiculous claim to discredit the Staunch PRO-TURK founder of
> Turkiye, ATATURK.
>

> > * by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,
> > * none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it
> > * in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli
> > * Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:
>

> #3 The next reference is the "ISRAELI ENCYLOPEDIA"!!! :)))
>

> > * "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman
> > * and founder of the modern Turkish state.
> > *
> > * "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in
> > * Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the
>

> #4 NOTICE, that it says as well that there is "NO PROOF" that Ataturk is a
> "donme Jew"
>
> I'm still baffled with their weak attempts to discredit the Greatest Turk
> of the Century... I think it's time you two clowns gathered up you 9Volt
> brain power and rethink.
>

> > * belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family
> > * came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to
> > * give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was
> > * sent at his demand to study in a military academy."
>

[OGUZ]

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:

> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:06:20 -0500
> From: Khondakar Golam Mowla <kgm...@worldnet.att.net>
> Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.egyptian,
> soc.culture.turkish, soc.culture.iraq
> Subject: Re: "[iso-8859-1] Atatürk was a Jew" = greatest terrorist as he destryoed Khilafah so that World Muslim can not be united

>
> Turkish Army is still under occupation of secret Jews.
> What we can expect from secret Jews who controlling Turkish Army?
> Ataturk was a secret Jew, whose ancestors were given shelter
> by Osmani Caliph after Spanish inquisition. And those secret Jews
> gave the price to World Muslims by destroying the Caliphate after
> Sultan Abdul Hamid refused to allow Jewish State in Palestine.

True...
But it is the Arab nationalists who sabotaged, attacked from behind,
MURDERED the MUSLIM TURK soldiers fighting the British & French invaders
of the Middles East in World War I. It was Ataturk and many other generals
who were fighting the Christian powers who wanted to divide and destroy
the Ottoman Empire and YOU my boy helped them and now you are paying for
it with the presence of the state of Israel in your backyard. Yet in all
your inability to unite the Arab world to defeat a small nation as Israel
you are so enthralled in fantasies that ONE man (Ataturk) is to blame for
all you troubles...

What you don't like about Ataturk is that he gave the Muslim Turks of the
Ottoman empire a sense of NATIONALISM, a tie to their ancient origins and
brothers in Central Asia and Siberia, just as the Arabs had so violenty
displayed on their Muslim Turk brothers. The Turks are the ones since the
10th century who have led the "muslim world" in all the sciences, war, art
etc... The Arabs and the last Ottoman Khan are to blame for siding with
the Christian Brits and French. You are paying for you sins. DO NOT Blame
the Greatest Turk leader of the century, ATATURK, for your inedptnesss

>
> Caliphate is a must for this world as there will be no restriction of
> passport and visa, where no people can be a hostage within a small
> border, where a few families will become owner of billion of dollars
> wealth, where rule of law will be imposed by those few families for
> their personal benefit. So the World must know how human right of
> billions of people violated by the treacherous way when 1300 years old
> Caliphate was abolished in 1924. We all know about the role played by

The caliphate can do whatever he wants. He was not killed. He flew off to
Great Britain! why didn't he just run to Saudi Arabia where he could start
again???

> Lawrence of Arab; but many of us was ignorant about the following:
> "the new Turkish State is a state of the people and a state by the
> people."
> But why Ataturk abolished Khilafat, which was the political System of
> majority people of Turkey?

Nationalism my ignorant, racist 'friend' nationalsim...
WE Turks had an empire of many peoples, yet they got greedy,
and racist. We Turks in our inoccence were the last to become
nationalist and payed dearly for it. We almost were wiped off the
face of the Europe and Middle East.

I will ignore all you references to "Jewish" sources. For I know no Jews
who claim him as a Jew and if I were a Jew I would be proud that he was
Jewish and claim him! So all your pathetic sources.... I'm sorry your one
source is useless.

Let me ask you a question.
Why do you spend so much time in New York city's Jewish
division library?! MAKES one wonder who the Jew really is? ;)

[irgun1943]

Dear Mr. Subaykan,
I understand your point but you must understand that, during certain
periods in the history of nations,
the individual counts for nothing.
From your own history, with the enemy at Gallipoli or with a Greek Army
in Anatolia, do you think it would be proper for me to lecture you about
how all men are brothers? Of course not.
There are two reasons why the Arab/Israeli conflict has gone on for so
long in contrast with other wars:
1. Arab self deceit about reality
2, Israeli reluctance to shed blood.
You know as well as I do that Turks would never have put up with the
constant provocations both inside and outside the country. If you need
further examples, think about Turkish minorities as suicide bombers? Think
about Turkish minorities publicly demonstrating in support of foreign
countries and battling the Turkish police? How many times would that
happen?

irgun1943

Can Subaykan <guly...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.3.96.980401...@dante32.u.washington.edu>...

[entr...@hotmail.com]

The genetic origin of a person is not important, except to racists.
A person is known and remembred by what he has achieved, not by his genetics.

Ataturk is one of the greatest characters who founded a secularr republic from
the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

If it may be true he were Jewish.. Then we, citizens of Republic of Turkey,
must appreciate him for what he had achieved what other genetics people has
not.

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[MAydin19]

Who cares if ATATURK was a jew or not.......He was a great man. W/out him
Turkiye would have been disintegrated.
Arabs uses Islam and have always used Islam for their pan-arabist
motives.....Please, read their history all u find is hatred towards
Turks.....they call Turks invaders and barbarians and the occupiers of the arab
world.....They say the centuries of the Ottomans domination of the arab world
was the DARKEST days in the arab history....and now they want the Ottoman
Kalifat.
BTW the Kazarian Turks in the 8the century were Jews.

[kubilay_oncu]

In article <c1.2bm.2KvwTh$Q...@freedom2.express.net>, mso...@mistik.express.net
says...

Bu makale her iki ayda bir falan birilerinin dolabindan cikarilip buraya post
ediliyor,bu konuda baska makale de yok herhalde. Iyi ki birileri bunu yazmis
da post etmis sonra naapardiniz?

Isin en komik tarafi, bu makale icinde de soyle bir bolum var:

(....)

>*There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in
>>*Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme.

(...)

Ayrica,

Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi olsun,
ne farkedecek? Belki bir takim hastalikli beyinlere tatmin duygusu verecek
ama zaten o beyinlere ne verseniz verin bu saatten sonra farketmez.

Bu meseleyi Dilipak da epey bir kurcalamisti. O Dilipak, ki tevaturcunun
katmerlisidir, bile dise dokunur bir sey bulamadi, soyle kendisi gibi
koseli kafalilara zafer naralari icerisinde sunabilsin

Bu makaleyi aydingere cektir, birer yafta halinde onune arkana gelecek sekilde
boynuna as, bir de eline can al, calarak ortalarda dolas "Haniya makaleci geldi"
diye. Belki daha cok dikkat cekersin.

Kubilay

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <6fu0mo$j6d$1...@news.netvision.net.il>,
Reuven Singer <reuv...@netvision.net.il> wrote:
>Actually since we all agree that Ataturk was a great leader who brought
>Turkey into the 20th century, it would be rather a compliment if he were of
>Jewish descent. Probably not true though. Pity
>
>

Well, guess what....check out if Saddam is a Jew too...

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <6fu4cn$s...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>,

-Surensoy,E. <en...@ihgp4.ih.lucent.com> wrote:
> Some anti-Turkish hate mongering idiots some of whom have been
> born and raised in Turkiye, by saying "Ataturk was a Jew", think
> they are insulting Turks and Turkiye; these idiots do not realize
> the fact that attemping to insult someone by claiming that that
> person is "a Jew" is nothing but a racism and against to basic
> human rights and freedoms.

Zionist Surensoy, the newspaper showing the evidence is a zionist Jewish
Newspaper....so much for your racism tune....

[irgun1943]

Sir,
You first should learn to read English before opening your mouth. The
article you refer to was saying the opposite. Are you The Arab Minister of
education by any chance?
irgun1943

Mustafa Soysal MS57 <mso...@mistik.express.net> wrote in article
<c1.2bm.2Kwbtj$Q...@freedom2.express.net>...

[Hurrem Karun]

Kubilay, Oncu wrote:
>
> In article <c1.2bm.2KvwTh$Q...@freedom2.express.net>, mso...@mistik.express.net
> says...
>
> Bu makale her iki ayda bir falan birilerinin dolabindan cikarilip buraya post
> ediliyor,bu konuda baska makale de yok herhalde. Iyi ki birileri bunu yazmis
> da post etmis sonra naapardiniz?
>
> Isin en komik tarafi, bu makale icinde de soyle bir bolum var:
>
> (....)
>
> >*There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in
> >>*Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme.
>
> (...)
>
> Ayrica,
>
> Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi olsun,
> ne farkedecek?

Farkeder... En azindan "Ataturk" adini ALAMAZ!

[Avital Pilpel]

Atill...@hotmail.com wrote:

> HE WAS NO JEW!
>

True.

Besides, even if he _was_ a jew, what kind of insult to jews is _that_?

After all, Mustafah Kamel Ataturk [sp??? sorry if I got it wrong] was
certainly one of the great men of the 20th century.

[Avital Pilpel]

Can Subaykan wrote:

> I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere and
> respect him for what he has done for the Turkish Republic.
>
> I would not be bothered by the thought of a "Jew in our midst" nor would
> it bother me if Jews claimed Ataturk as one of their own. He is our hero
> not because of his bloodline but because of his achievements.
>
> His words "Peace at home, peace in the world" should inspire us.
>
> As a Turk, I cannot say too much about the feelings between Jews and
> Arabs, but what I can say is this; I have met many Arabs most of whom I
> found to be very good people, some of whom became very dear friends of
> mine. I have also met many Jews most of whom I found to be very good
> people, some of whom became very dear friends of mine.
>
> It bothers me to hear about any anti-Arab or anti-Jewish sentiment from
> Turks, and vice versa.
>
> Peace - BarI$ - Salam - Shalom
>
> Can Subaykan
>
> (*

Kol Hakavod, as they say in hebrew - well done!

One of the best posts I've read here lately.

Many people see Turkey as extremely important to any Mideast peace process -
since it can help solve the region's water problems, thus eliminating that
very critical point in the conflict. What do you think?

[Can Subaykan]

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Avital Pilpel wrote:

> Can Subaykan wrote:
>
> > I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere and
> > respect him for what he has done for the Turkish Republic.
> >
> > I would not be bothered by the thought of a "Jew in our midst" nor would
> > it bother me if Jews claimed Ataturk as one of their own. He is our hero
> > not because of his bloodline but because of his achievements.
> >
> > His words "Peace at home, peace in the world" should inspire us.
> >
> > As a Turk, I cannot say too much about the feelings between Jews and
> > Arabs, but what I can say is this; I have met many Arabs most of whom I
> > found to be very good people, some of whom became very dear friends of
> > mine. I have also met many Jews most of whom I found to be very good
> > people, some of whom became very dear friends of mine.
> >
> > It bothers me to hear about any anti-Arab or anti-Jewish sentiment from
> > Turks, and vice versa.
> >
> > Peace - BarI$ - Salam - Shalom
> >
> > Can Subaykan
> >
> > (*
>
> Kol Hakavod, as they say in hebrew - well done!
> One of the best posts I've read here lately.

Toda raba, ha khaver sheli ;)

> Many people see Turkey as extremely important to any Mideast peace process -
> since it can help solve the region's water problems, thus eliminating that
> very critical point in the conflict. What do you think?

Turkey is geographically in a very interesting place, figuratively and
quite literally it is a bridge between East and West, Asia and Europe, Old
and New.

As for the peace process and Turkey's potential role, I will try to be
optimistic (though in my personal life i am an absolute pessimist)
that Turkey, in its cooperation with Israel, will be a bridge rather than
a barrier between Israel and the Arab neighbors we both share.

Aval, akhshav ma rotsim? (ani mevin ktsat ivrit, lo harbe ;) )

Can Subaykan

(*

[OGUZ]

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Hurrem Karun wrote:

>
> Kubilay, Oncu wrote:
> >
> > Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi olsun,
> > ne farkedecek?
>
> Farkeder... En azindan "Ataturk" adini ALAMAZ!

Cahil Hurrem,
Mustafa Kemal o adi "almadi".
O ad ona VERiLDi!!!

ULU ONDER'IM IZINDEYIZ

[OGUZ]

On 2 Apr 1998, irgun1943 wrote:
>
> Sir,
> You first should learn to read English before opening your mouth. The
> article you refer to was saying the opposite. Are you The Arab Minister of
> education by any chance?
> irgun1943

irgun1943,

You see how stupid this guy Mustafa Soysal is??? :))))
He thinks he can post an article that gives the history of the "Donme" in
Ottoman times, throw in the name Ataturk in the header, and people are
going to make some sort of simple connection.

Just as you've pointed out. The articles disprove what he is trying to
prove. :) Makes you wonder what we're dealing with here.

Anyhow, this thread has been given way too much attention.
I'm on my way,

Peace,

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

For detail visit my home page on Khilafah at:

http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

What we can expect from secret Jews who controlling Turkish Army?
Ataturk was a secret Jew, whose ancestors were given shelter
by Osmani Caliph after Spanish inquisition. And those secret Jews
gave the price to World Muslims by destroying the Caliphate after
Sultan Abdul Hamid refused to allow Jewish State in Palestine.

Caliphate is a must for this world as there will be no restriction of

passport and visa, where no people can be a hostage within a small
border, where a few families will become owner of billion of dollars
wealth, where rule of law will be imposed by those few families for
their personal benefit. So the World must know how human right of
billions of people violated by the treacherous way when 1300 years old
Caliphate was abolished in 1924. We all know about the role played by

Lawrence of Arab; but many of us was ignorant about the following:
"the new Turkish State is a state of the people and a state by the
people."
But why Ataturk abolished Khilafat, which was the political System of
majority people of Turkey?

Ataturk was a Jew, secret Jew and the greatest enemy of Islam .as he
abolished the
Caliphate and suppressed the Muslims.

Here is a quotation from Joachim Prinz's 'The Secret Jews'; page 122: I
did not make the story nor any member of World Muslim. From the same
book written by a Jew the World can know how Jew lived under Caliphate,
Spain to India and Yemen to Bosnia and how Jews were placed in high
post. But what we know now is that the World Muslims who protected the
Jews from inquisition after inquisition by European Christians; were
fooled and by the same Jews Caliphate were abolished.

"The revolt of he Young Turks in 1908 against the authoritarian regime
of Sultan Abdul Hamid Khan began among the intellectuals of Salonika.
Among the leaders of the revolution which resulted in a more modern
government in Turkey were Djavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Both were ardent
doenmeh (secret Jew). Djavid Bey became minister of finance; Mustafa
Kemal became the leader of the new regime and he adopted the name of
Ataturk. His opponents tried to use his doenmeh background to unseat
him, but without success. Too many of the Young Turks in the newly
formed revolutionary Cabinet prayed to Allah, but had as their real
prophet Shabtai Zvi, the Messiah of Smyrna."

Ataturk’s ancestors, who came from Spain after the fall of Islam;
were given shelter under the Caliphate. You can get the above book
from Jewish division

of New York Public Library.

[OGUZ]

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:
> For detail visit my home page on Khilafah at:
>
> http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

#1 Your page is weak, has no references, no truth (in regard to ATATURK)

#2 DUDE, get a clue and move into the 21th century.

**** you must learn how to walk; before you can run****
#3 If you are so pro-pan-Islam, why don't you worry about uniting the Arab
states first? Then you can worry about ooooo the "evil Israel" state. I
think you will have a very difficult time getting Mubarek, Saddam hussein,
King Hussein, Al Assad's heads out of their money coffirs!!! let alone the
filthy rich Gulf Arabs.

#4 WHY, I SAID!!! WHY!!! hasn't ANY Arab "brother muslim nation" voted,
supported, or done any thing else to help the Republic of North Cyprus.
(you know why, 'cause you guys bend over for the Brits, French, & US)

#5 Trust me, you can't handle the Turkish military.

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

Yes we can not handle the Turkish military as it is controlleb by
Jewish General and the acts of those Generals are to work against Islam
and Khilafah as Ataturk did, banning azan in Arabic, killing thousands
of Muslims and lastly abolished Khilafah.

I gave the Jewish reference which is available in Jewish Division of New
York central Library in Manhattan between 5th and 6th Avenue. Ask anyone
make a photocopy to distribute and save Turkish Muslims from Jewish
domination.

OGUZ wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:

> > For detail visit my home page on Khilafah at:
> >
> > http://home.att.net/~kgmowla
>

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

Accept that Ataturk was Jew and enemy of Islam and than go to know the
story of Jewish wives in Arab World of Egypt from following URL:

http://www.arabia.com/cgi-bin/bbs_forumz.cgi?forum=news&read=003141-003100.msg&session=352412f65df34526&use_last_read=on&last_read=0

And visit my web page too:

http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

OGUZ wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:
>
> > Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:06:20 -0500
> > From: Khondakar Golam Mowla <kgm...@worldnet.att.net>
> > Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast, soc.culture.egyptian,
> > soc.culture.turkish, soc.culture.iraq
> > Subject: Re: "[iso-8859-1] Atatürk was a Jew" = greatest terrorist as he destryoed Khilafah so that World Muslim can not be united
> >

> > Turkish Army is still under occupation of secret Jews.
> > What we can expect from secret Jews who controlling Turkish Army?
> > Ataturk was a secret Jew, whose ancestors were given shelter
> > by Osmani Caliph after Spanish inquisition. And those secret Jews
> > gave the price to World Muslims by destroying the Caliphate after
> > Sultan Abdul Hamid refused to allow Jewish State in Palestine.
>

> True...
> But it is the Arab nationalists who sabotaged, attacked from behind,
> MURDERED the MUSLIM TURK soldiers fighting the British & French invaders
> of the Middles East in World War I. It was Ataturk and many other generals
> who were fighting the Christian powers who wanted to divide and destroy
> the Ottoman Empire and YOU my boy helped them and now you are paying for
> it with the presence of the state of Israel in your backyard. Yet in all
> your inability to unite the Arab world to defeat a small nation as Israel
> you are so enthralled in fantasies that ONE man (Ataturk) is to blame for
> all you troubles...
>
> What you don't like about Ataturk is that he gave the Muslim Turks of the
> Ottoman empire a sense of NATIONALISM, a tie to their ancient origins and
> brothers in Central Asia and Siberia, just as the Arabs had so violenty
> displayed on their Muslim Turk brothers. The Turks are the ones since the
> 10th century who have led the "muslim world" in all the sciences, war, art
> etc... The Arabs and the last Ottoman Khan are to blame for siding with
> the Christian Brits and French. You are paying for you sins. DO NOT Blame
> the Greatest Turk leader of the century, ATATURK, for your inedptnesss
>
> >

> > Caliphate is a must for this world as there will be no restriction of
> > passport and visa, where no people can be a hostage within a small
> > border, where a few families will become owner of billion of dollars
> > wealth, where rule of law will be imposed by those few families for
> > their personal benefit. So the World must know how human right of
> > billions of people violated by the treacherous way when 1300 years old
> > Caliphate was abolished in 1924. We all know about the role played by
>

> The caliphate can do whatever he wants. He was not killed. He flew off to
> Great Britain! why didn't he just run to Saudi Arabia where he could start
> again???
>

> > Lawrence of Arab; but many of us was ignorant about the following:
> > "the new Turkish State is a state of the people and a state by the
> > people."
> > But why Ataturk abolished Khilafat, which was the political System of
> > majority people of Turkey?
>

> Nationalism my ignorant, racist 'friend' nationalsim...
> WE Turks had an empire of many peoples, yet they got greedy,
> and racist. We Turks in our inoccence were the last to become
> nationalist and payed dearly for it. We almost were wiped off the
> face of the Europe and Middle East.
>
> I will ignore all you references to "Jewish" sources. For I know no Jews
> who claim him as a Jew and if I were a Jew I would be proud that he was
> Jewish and claim him! So all your pathetic sources.... I'm sorry your one
> source is useless.
>
> Let me ask you a question.
> Why do you spend so much time in New York city's Jewish
> division library?! MAKES one wonder who the Jew really is? ;)
>

[Yusuf Kevik]

Kubilay meinte am 02.04.98
zum Thema "Re: "Atatłrk was a Jew" = an arab lie":

> In article <c1.2bm.2KvwTh$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
> mso...@mistik.express.net says...
>
>
> Bu makale her iki ayda bir falan birilerinin dolabindan cikarilip buraya
> post ediliyor,bu konuda baska makale de yok herhalde. Iyi ki birileri
> bunu yazmis da post etmis sonra naapardiniz?

Benim de bu SCT diyarina ilk takilmaya basladigim siralarda fena halde
kafami bozmustu bu makale. Bir elde ingilizce sozluk, bir elde klavye, uc
asagi bes yukari sokene kadar ismi bitmisti. Sonra da, agzimi ilk bozdugum
makalenin bu oldugunu soyleyeblirim. Bu gerzekler belden asagi vurmadan
duramazlar. Ister yahudi olsun, ister musluman, ister budist, ister
samanist... Insanin yaptigi seylere bakilir, dinine, etnik kokenine,
annesinin hamile kalirken babasi ile nikahli olup olmadigina degil.
Sunu da ekleyeyim: Fatihten sonra hic bir padisah, nikahli kadindan
dogmamistir. Yani hepsi zina doludur. Simdi sayisini veremeyecegim ama,
Abbasi ve Emevi halifelerinin de bir kismi zina doludur. Zira, cariyelere
nikah yapilmazdi!

Hadi gelin konusun Haydeyemeyesice kafirler!

Selamlar

Keviglu

>
> Isin en komik tarafi, bu makale icinde de soyle bir bolum var:
>
>
> (....)
>

> >*There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims
> >>in *Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme.
>
>
> (...)
>
>
>
> Ayrica,
>

> Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi

> olsun, ne farkedecek? Belki bir takim hastalikli beyinlere tatmin

> duygusu verecek ama zaten o beyinlere ne verseniz verin bu saatten sonra
> farketmez.
>
>
> Bu meseleyi Dilipak da epey bir kurcalamisti. O Dilipak, ki tevaturcunun
> katmerlisidir, bile dise dokunur bir sey bulamadi, soyle kendisi gibi
> koseli kafalilara zafer naralari icerisinde sunabilsin
>
> Bu makaleyi aydingere cektir, birer yafta halinde onune arkana gelecek
> sekilde boynuna as, bir de eline can al, calarak ortalarda dolas "Haniya
> makaleci geldi" diye. Belki daha cok dikkat cekersin.
>
> Kubilay

--
** Beispiel-Signatur für öffentliche Nachrichten **
## CrossPoint v3.11 R ##

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.980402...@Nash.iupui.edu>,

OGUZ <so...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>On 2 Apr 1998, irgun1943 wrote:
>>

>> Sir,
>> You first should learn to read English before opening your mouth. The
>> article you refer to was saying the opposite. Are you The Arab Minister of
>> education by any chance?
>> irgun1943
>

>irgun1943,
>
>You see how stupid this guy Mustafa Soysal is??? :))))
>He thinks he can post an article that gives the history of the "Donme" in
>Ottoman times, throw in the name Ataturk in the header, and people are
>going to make some sort of simple connection.

Oh yeah, let's see...

------- start of forwarded message -------

* Path: mistik!uunet!in2.uu.net!news.ysu.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!az522
* From: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
* Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish

* Subject: M. Kemal confesses his Jewishness

* Date: 16 Mar 1996 11:00:17 GMT

* Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH

* Lines: 266
* Message-ID: <4ie701$i...@news.ysu.edu>
* Reply-To: az...@yfn.ysu.edu (Hakan Doganer)
* NNTP-Posting-Host: yfn2.ysu.edu
*
*
*
*

* I am very grateful to both David Davidian and Mustafa Soysal for

* the following article. D. Davidian provided the article to M. Soysal,

* and M. Soysal informed me of the article.

*
*
* **********
*
*

* FORWARD, A Jewish Newspaper published in New York.

*
* January 28, 1994
*
*

* WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL

*

* "It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed

*
* By Hillel Halkin
*

* ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said

* over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer

* Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the

* first visit ever made to Turkey by a Jewish chief of state. One was

* whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony

* commemorating Kemal Ataturk.
*

* Ms. Kenan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he

* and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their

* arrival, and asked what my second question was.

*

* "Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had Jewish ancestors and

* was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"

*

* "Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had

* inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's

* national hero.
*
*
* Excited and Distressed
*

* I thanked her and hung up. A few minutes later it occurred to me to

* call back and ask whether President Weizman intended to make any reference

* while in Turkey to Ataturk's Jewish antecedents. "I'm so glad you called

* again," said Ms. Kenan, who now sounded excited and a bit distressed.

* "Exactly where did you get your information from?"

*

* Why was she asking, I countered, if the president's office had it too?

*

* Because it did not, she confessed. She had only assumed that it must

* because I had sounded so matter-of-fact myself. "After you hung up," she

* said, "I mentioned what you told me and nobody here knows anything about

* it. Could you please fax us what you know?"

*

* I faxed her a short version of it. Here is a longer one.

*

* Stories about the Jewishness of Ataturk, whose statue stands in the

* main square of every town and city in Turkey, already circulated in his

* lifetime but were denied by him and his family and never taken seriously

* by biographers. Of six biographies of him that I consulted this week,

* none even mentions such a speculation. The only scholarly reference to it

* in print that I could find was in the entry on Ataturk in the Israeli

* Entsiklopedya ha-Ivrit, which begins:

*

* "Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - (1881-1938), Turkish general and statesman

* and founder of the modern Turkish state.

*

* "Mustafa Kemal was born to the family of a minor customs clerk in

* Salonika and lost his father when he was young. There is no proof of the

* belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims in Turkey, that his family

* came from the Doenme. As a boy he rebelled against his mother's desire to

* give him a traditional religious education, and at the age of 12 he was

* sent at his demand to study in a military academy."

*
*
* Secular Father
*

* The Doenme were an underground sect of Sabbetaians, Turkish Jews who

* took Muslim names and outwardly behaved like Muslims but secretly

* believed in Sabbetai Zevi, the 17th-century false messiah, and conducted

* carefully guarded prayers and rituals in his name. The encyclopedia's

* version of Ataturk's education, however, is somewhat at variance with his

* own. Here is his account of it as quoted by his biographers:

*

* "My father was a man of liberal views, rather hostile to religion, and

* a partisan of Western ideas. He would have preferred to see me go to a

* lay school, which did not found its teaching on the Koran but on modern

* science.
*

* "In this battle of consciences, my father managed to gain the victory

* after a small maneuver; he pretended to give in to my mother's wishes,

* and arranged that I should enter the [Islamic] school of Fatma Molla

* Kadin with the traditional ceremony. ...

*

* "Six months later, more or less, my father quietly withdrew me from

* the school and took me to that of old Shemsi Effendi who directed a free

* preparatory school according to European methods. My mother made no

* objection, since her desires had been complied with and her conventions

* respected. It was the ceremony above all which had satisfied her."

*

* Who was Mustafa Kemal's father, who behaved here in typical Doenme

* fashion, outwardly observing Muslim ceremonies while inwardly scoffing at

* them? Ataturk's mother Zubeyde came from the mountains west of Salonika,

* close to the current Albanian frontier; of the origins of his father, Ali

* Riza, little is known. Different writers have given them as Albanian,

* Anatolian and Salonikan, and Lord Kinross' compendious 1964 "Ataturk"

* calls Ali Riza a "shadowy personality" and adds cryptically regarding

* Ataturk's reluctance to disclose more about his family background: "To

* the child of so mixed an environment it would seldom occur, wherever his

* racial loyalties lay, to inquire too exactly into his personal origins

* beyond that of his parentage."

*
*
* Learning Hebrew
*

* Did Kinross suspect more than he was admitting? I would never have

* asked had I not recently come across a remarkable chapter while browsing

* in the out-of-print Hebrew autobiography of Itamar Ben-Avi, son of

* Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the leading promoter of the revival of spoken Hebrew

* in late 19th-century Palestine. Ben-Avi, the first child to be raised in

* Hebrew since ancient times and later a Hebrew journalist and newspaper

* publisher, writes in this book of walking into the Kamenitz Hotel in

* Jerusalem one autumn night in 1911 and being asked by its proprietor:

* " 'Do you see that Turkish officer sitting there in the corner, the one

* with the bottle of arrack?' "

*
* " 'Yes.' "
*

* " 'He's one of the most important officers in the Turkish army.' "

*
* " 'What's his name?' "
*
* " 'Mustafa Kemal.' "
*

* " 'I'd like to meet him,' I said, because the minute I looked at him

* I was startled by his piercing green eyes."

*

* Ben-Avi describes two meetings with Mustafa Kemal, who had not yet

* taken the name of Ataturk, 'Father of the Turks.' Both were conducted in

* French, were largely devoted to Ottoman politics, and were doused with

* large amounts of arrack. In the first of these, Kemal confided:

*

* "I'm a descendant of Sabbetai Zevi - not indeed a Jew any more, but an

* ardent admirer of this prophet of yours. My opinion is that every Jew in

* this country would do well to join his camp."

*

* During their second meeting, held 10 days later in the same hotel,

* Mustafa Kemal said at one point:

*

* " 'I have at home a Hebrew Bible printed in Venice. It's rather old,

* and I remember my father bringing me to a Karaite teacher who taught me

* to read it. I can still remember a few words of it, such as --' "

*
* And Ben-Avi continues:
*

* "He paused for a moment, his eyes searching for something in space.

* Then he recalled:
*

* " 'Shema Yisra'el, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Ehad!'

*

* " 'That's our most important prayer, Captain.'

*

* " 'And my secret prayer too, cher monsieur,' he replied, refilling our

* glasses."
*

* Although Itamar Ben-Avi could not have known it, Ataturk no doubt

* meant "secret prayer" quite literally. Among the esoteric prayers of the

* Doenme, first made known to the scholarly world when a book of them

* reached the National Library in Jerusalem in 1935, is one containing the

* confession of faith:
*

* "Sabbetai Zevi and none other is the true Messiah. Hear O Israel, the

* Lord our God, the Lord is one."

*

* It was undoubtedly from this credo, rather than from the Bible, that

* Ataturk remembered the words of the Shema, which to the best of my

* knowledge he confessed knowing but once in his adult life: to a young

* Hebrew journalist whom he engaged in two tipsily animated conversations

* in Jerusalem nearly a decade before he took control of the Turkish army

* after its disastrous defeat in World War I, beat back the invading Greeks

* and founded a secular Turkish republic in which Islam was banished - once

* and for all, so he thought - to the mosques.

*

* Ataturk would have had good reasons for concealing his Doenme origins.

* Not only were the Doenmes (who married only among themselves and numbered

* close to 15,000, largely concentrated in Salonika, on the eve of World

* War I) looked down on as heretics by both Muslims and Jews, they had a

* reputation for sexual profligacy that could hardly have been flattering

* to their offspring. This license, which was theologically justified by

* the claim that it reflected the faithful's freedom from the biblical

* commandments under the new dispensation of Sabbetai Zevi, is described by

* Ezer Weizman's predecessor, Israel's second president, Yitzchak Ben-Zvi,

* in his book on lost Jewish communities, "The Exiled and the Redeemed":

*
*
* 'Saintly Offspring
*

* "Once a year [during the Doenmes' annual 'Sheep holiday'] the candles

* are put out in the course of a dinner which is attended by orgies and the

* ceremony of the exchange of wives. ... The rite is practiced on the night

* of Sabbetai Zevi's traditional bithday. ... It is believed that children

* born of such unions are regarded as saintly."

*

* Although Ben-Zvi, writing in the 1950s, thought that "There is reason

* to believe that this ceremony has not been entirely abandoned and

* continues to this day," little is known about whether any of the Doenmes'

* traditional practices or social structures still survive in modern

* Turkey. The community abandoned Salonika along with the city's other

* Turkish residents during the Greco-Turkish war of 1920-21, and its

* descendants, many of whom are said to be wealthy businessmen and

* merchants in Istanbul, are generally thought to have assimilated totally

* into Turkish life.
*

* After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had

* received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the

* president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful,

* however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The

* Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim

* fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of

* Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the

* 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-Jew who passed on his anti-Muslim

* sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it

* would prefer to continue to be kept.

*
*
* *****
*
*

* Ayni hususa Abdurrahman Dilipak soyle temas ediyor:

*
*
* Cumhuriyete Giden Yol
* Abdurrahman Dilipak
* 1991, s. 13-14
*

* UluG iGdemir "Ataturk'un Yasami" ni konu aldigi kitabinin 1. cildinin

* 23. sayfasinda Mustafa Kemal'in 1911'de Libya'ya giderken Kudus'e

* ugradigindan bahisle su hatiraya yer vermektedir: "8 Eylul 1911'de

* Istanbul'dan yola cikan Mustafa Kemal, 19 Ekim'de Iskenderiye'ye

* vardi. Bu yolculuk esnasinda Mustafa Kemal'in Kudus'e de ugradigi ve

* orada Ibrani dilini yeniden konusma dili haline getirme cabasi icinde

* bulunan ve Ibranice'nin Buyuk Sozlugu'nu meydana getiren Elizar-Ben Yehuda

* ile gorustugu anlasiliyor."
*

* Adi gecen eserde, Mustafa Kemal'in o zamanlar Yehuda'ya "Ibrani yazisinin

* guc bir yazi oldugunu, bunun yerine Latin harflerini kabul etmelerinin

* yerinde olacagini, eger kendisi Turkiye'de soz sahibi olursa Arap harfleri

* yerine Latin harflerini kabul ettirmeye calisacagini" soylediginden

* bahsedilmektedir.
* .....

* Elizar-Ben Yehuda'nin oglu itamar Ben-Avi hatiralarinda uzun uzun

* Mustafa Kemal'le babasinin ve kendisinin tanismasi ve konusmalarindan

* sozeder. Ben-Avi'ye Mustafa Kemal o zaman ilgilendigi konulari ve

* planlarini anlatir. Hatta Kudus'de bir otel odasinda bu yahudi ile

* konusurken onlara Enver ve Cemal Pasalara olan guvensizliginden

* sozetmektedir. itamar Ben-Avi, Mustafa Kemal'le tanisip konustuktan sonra

* "Turkiye icin daha guzel bir istikbal umutlarinin kapisinin acildigini ve

* Mustafa Kemal'in anlattiklarina, bir Osmanli tebasi olarak kendisinin de

* yurekten katildigini" ifade eder.
*

* Kudus'den Ingilizlerin haberi olmadan gizlice Iskenderiye'ye gecerken

* yaptigi bu gorusmelerin Yahudiler tarafindan Ingilizlere ulastirilmis

* olmasi gerekir. Ancak bu konudaki Ingiliz belgeleri henuz acik olmadigi

* icin fazla bir bilgiye sahip degiliz !

------- end of forwarded message -------

>

>Just as you've pointed out. The articles disprove what he is trying to
>prove. :) Makes you wonder what we're dealing with here.
>
>Anyhow, this thread has been given way too much attention.
>I'm on my way,
>
>Peace,
>

[Yusuf Kevik]

Dangalak dingiller yine piyasaya cikti! Ulan Ataturk yahudi olsa ne yazar,
olmasa ne yazar... Dedikleriniz zaten sacma ya, hadi oyle oldugunu kabul
edelim.

Bir seyi degistirir mi?

Selcuklularin Hazar Hanligindan ayrilma bir boy oldugunu, Hazarlarin zaten
yahudi/musevi oldugu gercegini, Selcuk beyin yahudi oldugu, ve oglu Arslan
Yabgunun asil adinin "Arlan Israel" oldugunu degistirir mi? Yegenleri
Tugrul ve Cagri´nin Turklere Mavera un nehir´in kapilarini acip, Cagri´nin
oglu Alparslan´in Anadolu kapilarini acma gercegini degistirir mi?

Ataturk yahudi/musevi imis! N´olmus!

Belki de kendi soyunun islamiyetten onceki dinine dondu! Size girip
cikmayan ne?

Neyzen´in dedigi gibi:

"Sana girip cikmayan ne be durzu?"

Simdi milliyetcilik gayretiyle benim bu yukardaki dediklerime itiraz
etmeye kalkisacak olan "Cumhur"lar cikacaktir ortaya..

Onlara ogudum sudur ki, en kotu gercek, en iyi hayalden/masaldan daha
fazla yardimci olur insana. Gidin biraz tarih okuyun, Ilk donem Selcuklu
eserlerinde neden alti koseli yildiz varmis, biraz bakin, dusunun!

Simdi bunlari okuyup da, bana Romen Diyojen´in torunu diye kufur etmege
kalkisacak gerzeklere iki nokta onceden hatirlatilir:
1- Ben Avsar´im, soyumun, boyumun nerden geldigi bellidir.
2- Romen Diyojen´in soyunun Peceneklerden geldigine dair guclu gostergeler
mevcuttur. Yoksa, savasin orta yerinde niye Bizans ordusundaki Turkler
Selcuklu tarafina gecsin?
(Meraklisina ek ders: Ayni sey, hemen hemen benzer kosullarda Ankara
Savasi´nda Yildirim Bayezid´in basina gelmistir!)

O gerzeklerin yerinde ben olsam, oyle ucuz hamasi nutuklarla degil de,
adam gibi okuyup yazarak "milliyetcilik" yapmaya calisirdim.

Belki sonunda "yara sarmaya" bir miktar katkisi olurdu!

Mustafa Kemal´i (Ataturk´u) sadece yurda yaptigi hizmetlerle
degerlendiren, onun hakkinda dedikodu cikaranlarin izzetli anneleri ve
iffetli kizkardesleri hakkinda oldukca "yapici" gorusler besleyen

Kevioglu

[Yusuf Kevik]

so...@iupui.edu meinte am 02.04.98

zum Thema "Re: "Atatłrk was a Jew" = an arab lie":

> On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Hurrem Karun wrote:

> >
> > Kubilay, Oncu wrote:
> > >
> > > Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi
> > > olsun, ne farkedecek?
> >

> > Farkeder... En azindan "Ataturk" adini ALAMAZ!
>
> Cahil Hurrem,
> Mustafa Kemal o adi "almadi".
> O ad ona VERiLDi!!!
>
> ULU ONDER'IM IZINDEYIZ

Hurrem Sultan, bu mevzuda bir de su fakirin yazilarina goz atmak lutfunda
bulunmaz miydiniz? Vallahi ve de billahi, kulunuzu ihya ederdiniz!

Kevioglu

>
> \\|//
> (o o)
> ---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
> | OGUZ |
> | http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
> --------------------------------

--

[entr...@hotmail.com]

In article <3523E4...@my.enail.is.here>,
Hurrem Karun <for...@my.enail.is.here> wrote:

>
> Kubilay, Oncu wrote:
> >
> > In article <c1.2bm.2KvwTh$Q...@freedom2.express.net>,
mso...@mistik.express.net
> > says...
> >
> > Bu makale her iki ayda bir falan birilerinin dolabindan cikarilip buraya
post
> > ediliyor,bu konuda baska makale de yok herhalde. Iyi ki birileri bunu
yazmis
> > da post etmis sonra naapardiniz?
> >

> > Isin en komik tarafi, bu makale icinde de soyle bir bolum var:
> >
> > (....)
> >

> > >*There is no proof of the belief, widespread among both Jews and Muslims
in

> > >>*Turkey, that his family came from the Doenme.
> >
> > (...)
> >
> > Ayrica,
> >

> > Mustafa Kemal isterse Yahudi olsun, isterse Arap olsun isterse Durzi
olsun,
> > ne farkedecek?
>
> Farkeder... En azindan "Ataturk" adini ALAMAZ!

Atatürk adi, genetik açidan degil, Türk'ler ve Türkiye için yaptiklarindan
dolayi verilmistir..

Adi sizi rahatsiz mi ediyor?

>
> >Belki bir takim hastalikli beyinlere tatmin duygusu verecek
> > ama zaten o beyinlere ne verseniz verin bu saatten sonra farketmez.
> >
> > Bu meseleyi Dilipak da epey bir kurcalamisti. O Dilipak, ki tevaturcunun
> > katmerlisidir, bile dise dokunur bir sey bulamadi, soyle kendisi gibi
> > koseli kafalilara zafer naralari icerisinde sunabilsin
> >
> > Bu makaleyi aydingere cektir, birer yafta halinde onune arkana gelecek
sekilde
> > boynuna as, bir de eline can al, calarak ortalarda dolas "Haniya makaleci
geldi"
> > diye. Belki daha cok dikkat cekersin.
> >
> > Kubilay
>

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----

[entr...@hotmail.com]

An article under which I could sign, too.

In article <3523EE44...@columbia.edu>,

ap...@columbia.edu wrote:
>
> Can Subaykan wrote:
>
> > I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere and
> > respect him for what he has done for the Turkish Republic.
> >
> > I would not be bothered by the thought of a "Jew in our midst" nor would
> > it bother me if Jews claimed Ataturk as one of their own. He is our hero
> > not because of his bloodline but because of his achievements.
> >
> > His words "Peace at home, peace in the world" should inspire us.
> >
> > As a Turk, I cannot say too much about the feelings between Jews and
> > Arabs, but what I can say is this; I have met many Arabs most of whom I
> > found to be very good people, some of whom became very dear friends of
> > mine. I have also met many Jews most of whom I found to be very good
> > people, some of whom became very dear friends of mine.
> >
> > It bothers me to hear about any anti-Arab or anti-Jewish sentiment from
> > Turks, and vice versa.
> >
> > Peace - BarI$ - Salam - Shalom
> >
> > Can Subaykan
> >
> > (*
>
> Kol Hakavod, as they say in hebrew - well done!
>
> One of the best posts I've read here lately.
>

> Many people see Turkey as extremely important to any Mideast peace process -
> since it can help solve the region's water problems, thus eliminating that
> very critical point in the conflict. What do you think?
>
>

[roger]

like we say in Egypt: EL FADI YAAMEL KADI
loosely translated mr atila khan has nothing better to do with his time

this ataturk story has been going on and off for over 2 years now.
my only comment 2 years ago and again now is, who gives a fuck if he was a
jew or swahili tribesman
i dont know about the greatest man in the 20th century part. im armenian
and anything turkish is caca to me. I guess mr jew its like telling you
Hitler was also one of the greatest. (well shitty comparison i know) but
anyways.
thats my 2 cents worth, and thats exactly rite. really topic not worth
more than 2 cents

RB

Avital Pilpel <ap...@columbia.edu> wrote in article
<3523EDA0...@columbia.edu>...

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <6r9ee...@lm166.link-m.de>,

Yusuf Kevik <y.k...@link-m.de> wrote:
>
>Dangalak dingiller yine piyasaya cikti! Ulan Ataturk yahudi olsa ne yazar,

dingil ananI sikendir. (babandIr)

>olmasa ne yazar... Dedikleriniz zaten sacma ya, hadi oyle oldugunu kabul
>edelim.
>
>Bir seyi degistirir mi?

deGiStirir. OrneGin AtadOnmenin Canakkale savaSInda erleri Anzac
tuzaklarIna manga manga eliyle gOtUrmesine fIrsat verir.

>
>Selcuklularin Hazar Hanligindan ayrilma bir boy oldugunu, Hazarlarin zaten
>yahudi/musevi oldugu gercegini, Selcuk beyin yahudi oldugu, ve oglu Arslan
>Yabgunun asil adinin "Arlan Israel" oldugunu degistirir mi? Yegenleri
>Tugrul ve Cagri´nin Turklere Mavera un nehir´in kapilarini acip, Cagri´nin
>oglu Alparslan´in Anadolu kapilarini acma gercegini degistirir mi?
>
>Ataturk yahudi/musevi imis! N´olmus!

;) Musevi olduGunu da kabul ediyorsun. Gizli Musevi, dOnme ayaGInda...

>
>Belki de kendi soyunun islamiyetten onceki dinine dondu! Size girip
>cikmayan ne?

;) anana girip CIkmayan ne ki orta yere domaldIn gene?

>
>Neyzen´in dedigi gibi:
>
>"Sana girip cikmayan ne be durzu?"

dUrzU ananI sikendir.

>
>Simdi milliyetcilik gayretiyle benim bu yukardaki dediklerime itiraz
>etmeye kalkisacak olan "Cumhur"lar cikacaktir ortaya..
>
>Onlara ogudum sudur ki, en kotu gercek, en iyi hayalden/masaldan daha
>fazla yardimci olur insana. Gidin biraz tarih okuyun, Ilk donem Selcuklu
>eserlerinde neden alti koseli yildiz varmis, biraz bakin, dusunun!

Efendim, zaten dilimizde tUy bitti, Fetih Sultan Mehmet'in annesi
Yahudiydi, ve OsmanlI ailesi AbdUlhamit dISInda Yaudiydi. HalifeliGi de
ellerinde tutanlar Yahudiydi.

>
>Simdi bunlari okuyup da, bana Romen Diyojen´in torunu diye kufur etmege
>kalkisacak gerzeklere iki nokta onceden hatirlatilir:
>1- Ben Avsar´im, soyumun, boyumun nerden geldigi bellidir.

Belli ise anlat, yoksa 'soyu bElli' diye dUSUnUrUz.

>2- Romen Diyojen´in soyunun Peceneklerden geldigine dair guclu gostergeler
>mevcuttur. Yoksa, savasin orta yerinde niye Bizans ordusundaki Turkler
>Selcuklu tarafina gecsin?

Bizans oyunu?

>(Meraklisina ek ders: Ayni sey, hemen hemen benzer kosullarda Ankara
>Savasi´nda Yildirim Bayezid´in basina gelmistir!)

MoGol oyunu? Veya Ba-yezid'in Yahudi olduGunu bilmelerinden?

>
>O gerzeklerin yerinde ben olsam, oyle ucuz hamasi nutuklarla degil de,
>adam gibi okuyup yazarak "milliyetcilik" yapmaya calisirdim.

Hangi Milliyet? Burada tek bir TUrk yok, hepsini OldUrdUnUz.

>
>Belki sonunda "yara sarmaya" bir miktar katkisi olurdu!
>
>
>Mustafa Kemal´i (Ataturk´u) sadece yurda yaptigi hizmetlerle
>degerlendiren, onun hakkinda dedikodu cikaranlarin izzetli anneleri ve
>iffetli kizkardesleri hakkinda oldukca "yapici" gorusler besleyen

o gOrUSlerini anana sakla...

>
>Kevioglu

[Mustafa Soysal MS57]

In article <01bd5f0e$fb9a0d80$65cb74ce@pas-place>, roger <ro...@ils.net> wrote:
>like we say in Egypt: EL FADI YAAMEL KADI
>loosely translated mr atila khan has nothing better to do with his time
>
>this ataturk story has been going on and off for over 2 years now.
>my only comment 2 years ago and again now is, who gives a fuck if he was a
>jew or swahili tribesman
>i dont know about the greatest man in the 20th century part. im armenian
>and anything turkish is caca to me. I guess mr jew its like telling you
>Hitler was also one of the greatest. (well shitty comparison i know) but
>anyways.

Dig a little and you will find that Hitler was a Jew just like Saddam
is.

[OGUZ]

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:
> I gave the Jewish reference which is available in Jewish Division of New
> York central Library in Manhattan between 5th and 6th Avenue. Ask anyone
> make a photocopy to distribute and save Turkish Muslims from Jewish
> domination.

[OGUZ]
Writing to you is useless. You've ignored all the facts I've written and
insist on some shadey article found in a New York library which IN FACT
DISPROVES what you are trying to proove... What more need I say. You have
defeated yourself.

p.s.
READ my post again! (included below)

Then, ANSWER!!!!

#3 and 4 !!!!

\\|//
(o o)
---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
| OGUZ |
| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
--------------------------------

[OGUZ]

On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Khondakar Golam Mowla wrote:

> Accept that Ataturk was Jew and enemy of Islam and than go to know the
> story of Jewish wives in Arab World of Egypt from following URL:
>
> http://www.arabia.com/cgi-bin/bbs_forumz.cgi?forum=news&read=003141-003100.msg&session=352412f65df34526&use_last_read=on&last_read=0

[OGUZ]
There is nothing there about Ataturk.

WHEN WILL YOU ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I'VE POSTED AND REMARK ON
WHAT YOUR PEOPLE HAVE DONE TO DESTROY THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE instead
of slandering 1 man ATATURK!

My second post to you is written below in response to your
baseless claims. YOU still have NOT remarked on any of the
issues I've written about.

ARE YOU A COWARD?!!!!

ARE YOU AFRAID TO ADMIT THE TRUTH
REGARDING THE ARABS uniting with
the Christian Brits & French?!!! ;)
And you sit at your keyboard most
likely with a slovenly belly and
slander one of the greatest Turks
in the world. Fortunately for you
you are not saying this to my face.

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS!
AND REMARK ON YOUR MISDEEDS
let the dead rest peacefully
and be a man! you pathetic
cockroach.

> Sultan Abdul Hamid refused to allow Jewish State in Palestine.

[OGUZ]

\\|//

[OGUZ]

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Mustafa Soysal MS57 wrote:
> >
> >You see how stupid this guy Mustafa Soysal is??? :))))
> >He thinks he can post an article that gives the history of the "Donme" in
> >Ottoman times, throw in the name Ataturk in the header, and people are
> >going to make some sort of simple connection.
>
> Oh yeah, let's see...

[OGUZ]
HA HA HAAA!!!

There is nothing there but the CONTRARY to what
you want to prove. ;)

What a loser...

[OGUZ]

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Can Subaykan wrote:
> I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere and
> respect him for what he has done for the Turkish Republic.

[OGUZ]
Definitely, we should show respect for his
great acheivements for the ALL the people of Turkiye

> I would not be bothered by the thought of a "Jew in our midst" nor would
> it bother me if Jews claimed Ataturk as one of their own. He is our hero
> not because of his bloodline but because of his achievements.

[OGUZ]
Firstly, judge people on their character, there actions and not their
'racial or socio-economic background', BUT as Turks we can not let
anyone steal our history right from under our noses' because people
like yourself are very open hearted (which is good; I think you
understand what I'm saying) Turks for centuries have always "not cared"
what is ours. We can not let others take our history, for when this
occurs WE as a nation lose ourselves. If this goes at this pace,
all the former nationalities of the Ottoman empire will claim everything
in Turkiye as their own.

The attacks on Ataturk by fanatic-religious Muslims is nothing more
than demonizing the foundation of the Turkish founder of our nation,
who brought Turks to realize the beauty of their own TURK culture and
find strength in it. He (Ataturk) did not slander nor destroy any other
culture or people. He was a much greater man than Mustafa Soysal, Hakan
Doganer and this Mowlana can ever dream of being. They only want to
demonize the foundations of the Turkish Republic (hysterically
connecting Ataturk & the military to the "Zionist movement"; doing
NOTHING positive for their brethren only slandering people) so that they
can eventually legitamize the destruction and mass murder of the average
Turkish citizen.

So, Can, we must never let them gain one cm!
They are liars and care not for humanity and
freedom as even their proffesed Islam dictates.
They are hypocrites who are so stupid that
they post articles disproving what they profess.

I wish you strength and happiness,

\\|//
(o o)
---------oOo--(_)--oOo----------
| OGUZ |
| http://php.iupui.edu/~soguz |
--------------------------------

[Reuven Singer]

Saddam is too stupid to be a Jew.

[Reuven Singer]

Most Jews, particularly in Israel, are well aware that although both Greeks
and Turks have rights in Cyprus, the present crisis was entirely
precipitated by the Greek (anti-Semitic) fascist junta invading Cyprus in
the 1970's and disrupting the fragile stabilization on the island previously
created by Greek and Turkish Cypriot leaders.

[roger]

excuse me but stop posting these shitty articles in SCE.
no sane egyptian cares about an idiot like ataturk.
now go ahead spam me. see if i care
r
OGUZ wrote in message ...

>On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Can Subaykan wrote:
>> I don't care whose lie it is, or even if it were true, we revere

and.....blabla bla

[roger]

enough already about that idiot ataturk. if i wanted to hear about that
asshole i would join alt cul.turkey (yeah rite!)
Im in SCE to talk about egyptian matters not some silly dead turk whom noone
except a couple of idiots care about.
ps.

[Mario Capitanini]

Again..Another Jew is trying to start a war between the Turks and the
Arabs..Take my advice and ignore that post.You can always tell that this
post is coming from "Israel".

[Reuven Singer]

If you followed the history of the thread, you would learn it was started by
a Turk.

[OGUZ]

On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, OGUZ wrote:
> > > **** you must learn how to walk; before you can run****
> > > #3 If you are so pro-pan-Islam, why don't you worry about uniting the Arab
> > > states first? Then you can worry about ooooo the "evil Israel" state. I
> > > think you will have a very difficult time getting Mubarek, Saddam hussein,
> > > King Hussein, Al Assad's heads out of their money coffirs!!! let alone the
> > > filthy rich Gulf Arabs.
> > >
> > > #4 WHY, I SAID!!! WHY!!! hasn't ANY Arab "brother muslim nation" voted,
> > > supported, or done any thing else to help the Republic of North Cyprus.
> > > (you know why, 'cause you guys bend over for the Brits, French, & US)

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

You are right that it is very defficult to re-establish the Khilafah.
When that land was divided it was done in a plan way. But we must
continue our struggle and atleast we know about Imam Mehdi and Prophet
Jesus (Peace be upon them).

So our dream is not a false dream, my brother.

And the followers of all religions, are united, and whatever they use to
say i.e. just for the sake of saying. They use to plan everything for
their next
generation and that is why before his death perhaps long before
his death as late of the eighteenth century Lord Chesterfield observed
in a letter to his son" 'There is one part of political knowledge which
is only to be had by inquiry and conversation; that is, the present
state of every
power in Europe with regard to the three important points of
strength, revenue and commerce, the collaborative efforts of the
European states, in the Eastern sections of the continent, did
bear fruit in one highly consequential way, in procuring the
defeat of the last great threat of an external imperial formation
of a traditional type- the Ottoman Empire'. Thus the repulsion of
the Turks at the gates of Vienna in the late seventeenth century
was an event perhaps as important to the late ascendancy of the
West as - if Edward Meyer and Weber are right- the Greek victory
at the Marathon was a millennium and a half earlier. And again
thus with the progressive retreat of the Turks, 'the 'Eastern
question' began to be posed in something like a recognizably
modern form, (Ref from THE NATION-STATE AND VIOLENCE BY ANTHONY GIDDENS
PG. 88), and to fulfill the above direction and to abolish the unity of
Muslims
and Caliphate as in Nehru's language which he has mentioned in
page 632 of GLIMPSES OF WORLD HISTORY' 'Britain attacked Turkey
in many weak places of her ramshackle empire: in Iraq and, later
in Palestine and Syria. In Arabia the national sentiment of the
Arabs was taken advantage of by the British, and an Arab revolt
against Turkey organized with the help of liberal bribes of money
and material. Colonel T. E. Lawrence, a British agent in Arabia
was largely responsible for this revolt, and later he developed a
reputation as a man of mystery, acting behind the scenes of many
movements in Asia. Jawaharlal Nehru also mentioned in the same
book in pg. 769-770, 'During the World War Arabia became a hotbed
of British intrigue, and British and India money (the India was
taken from Muslim rulers)was lavishly spent in subsidizing and
bribing the various Arab chiefs. All manner of promises were made
to them, and they were encouraged to revolt against Turkey.
Sometimes two rival chiefs, who were fighting each other, were
both receiving British subsidies! The British succeeded in
getting the Sherif Hussein of Mecca to raise Arab standards of
revolt. ... Hussein was promised by the British the kingdom of a
united Arabia. Ibn Saud was clever. He got himself recognized as
an independent sovereign by the British, accepted a tidy little
sum of & 5000 (Pound) per month from them, and promised to remain
neutral. So, while others were fighting, he consolidated his position
and strengthened it, to some extent with the help of British gold. The
Sherif Hussain
was becoming unpopular in Islamic countries, including India,
because of his rebellion against the Sultan of Turkey, who was
also then the Caliph. ..... The end of the war found England
dominating Arabia and trying to use both Hussein and Ibn Saud as
tools.' And yet in another recent book 'THE SECRET HISTORY OF
SADDAM'S WAR UNHOLY BABYLON BY ADEL DARWISH AND GREGORY
ALEXANDER' published by Victor Gollancz Ltd, London, it is
mentioned in pg 3-4 that 'Britain had recognized Kuwait's
independence on 19th June 1961, abrogating an agreement signed in
1899 which had made the emirate a British protectorate-..... the
1899 Anglo-Kuwait agreement signed by the former Sheikh of Kuwait
for 15,000 Indian rupees from the British commissioner in
Abadan.., in pg. 6 it is mentioned 'Britain proceeded to
establish posts and naval bases along the trade route to India
via the Suez Canal, which was opened in 1866, and also signed
exclusive agreements with Arab rulers throughout the Gulf. The
first was with Bahrain in 1880, prohibiting the sheikhdom from
making any treaties or agreements with any state other than
Britain or establishing diplomatic relations with other countries
without British consent. In the comment of the same book it is
mentioned 'The authors, who were researching the book before the
invasion(of Kuwait), demonstrate that the events of 2nd August
1990 were the logical conclusion to twenty years of diplomatic
duplicity, intelligence bungling, greed and corruption,
particularly on the part of Britain, the US, France and Germany.
The pursuit of short-sighted and relentlessly self-interested
foreign policies led them to arm (Saddam) Hussein with a
terrifying arsenal capable of mass destruction while overlooking
his deplorable record on human rights and the legitimate
interests of other states in the area.But who created those other
states in place of a united Caliphate, the reply in the same book
in pg. 7-8, it is mentioned that 'On the eve of the First World
War, Britain was conspiring to use the warlike bedouin to protect
its interest in the Middle East, either under the leadership of
their sheikhs or under British officers - such as T. E. Lawrence
- rather than deploying its own soldiers in the desert. To secure
the support of Mubarak, Britain agreed to recognize Kuwait as
independent of the Ottoman Empire. In exchange, Mubarak was to
support Britain against Turkey in the coming war..... Cox had
arrived in what was to become Iraq in October 1920, replacing as
High Commissioner Sir Arnold Wilson, who had wanted to set up a
British protectorate. Wilson's plan had been ill-received in the
newly founded country, already in turmoil since General Maude had
captured Baghdad from the Turks in March 1917 at a cost to the
British of two and a half years of bitter fighting and 98, 000
casualties. Maude proceeded to put into effect the secret Sykes-
Picot agreement, drawn up in 1916 between Britain and France, in
which the two powers shared out the spoils of their coming
victory over Ottoman Empire (Still a united Caliphate).
Mesopotamia, comprising the two former Ottoman velayets
(provinces) of Basra and Baghdad, was given to Britain. The
northern velayet of Mosul was initially given to France, but was
the subject of a dispute which was settled in Britain's favor in
1919.

[Khondakar Golam Mowla]

Any one is welcomed to visit my home page at:

http://home.att.net/~kgmowla

Only some traitors like Ataturk, who was a secret Jew, whose ancestors
were saved and
were given shelter under the Caliphate. In exchage he abolished
Caliphate in 1924 converted Turkey into a non-Islamic country.
He is the greatest terrorist and traitor in the world as he destroyed
only one Political System of Islam. Now time has come to punish
all who are part of that traitor.

And all our sufferings are due to the violation of the following clause
of our only constitution:

21:92 and 23:52: Verily, this Brotherhood of yours is a single
Brotherhood. And I am your Lord and Cherisher, therefore fear me (and no
other).

And one hadith:

(4568) It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri that
the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When oath of
al-legiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the
oath was taken later.

How we will re-establish the above one Brotherhood and punish those who
violated the above clause?
Each of the more than one billion World Muslims have the right to play a
role like Abraham Lincoln to re-establish Islam's only one political
System of Khilafa.
Consider how Abraham Lincoln kept this country i.e. USA united; where
the goats and tiger drink the same water like he and me from Iraq,
Kuwait, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.; where as we fight in Iraq-Iran,
Iraq-Kuwait etc. which is itself an act of anti-Islam. How much money we
spent in Somalia/Abysinia and other poor states and how much we spent
in the above unnecessary wars.

The World Muslims never accepted all terrorist acts against 1300 years
Khilafa; from Lawrence of Arabia's arrival in Jeddah. Kamal Ataturk's (a
secret Jew) plan and action to League of Nation/United Nation's
partition plan.

Here is a quotation from Joachim Prinz's 'The Secret Jews'; page 122:

"The revolt of he Young Turks in 1908 against the authoritarian regime

of Sultan Abdul Hamid Khan began among the intellectuals of Salonika.
Among the leaders of the revolution which resulted in a more modern
government in Turkey were Djavid Bey and Mustafa Kemal. Both were ardent
doenmeh (secret Jew). Djavid Bey became minister of finance; Mustafa
Kemal became the leader of the new regime and he adopted the name of
Ataturk. His opponents tried to use his doenmeh background to unseat
him, but without success. Too many of the Young Turks in the newly
formed revolutionary Cabinet prayed to Allah, but had as their real
prophet Shabtai Zvi, the Messiah of Smyrna."

That is not the end; Ibne Saud used to get monthly &7000.00 and
bombs/arms from Britain and First Kuwaiti Amir Mubarak got Indian
Rs.15,000.00 from Britain for the same purpose. Sharif Hussain's plan
with Lawrence is known to all. Britain supplied money, Bombs and Arms to
local agents to abolish Khilafa and divide that land.

So we do not know how many secret ??? was working at that time and also
are working now against the Khilafa and all these acts are the true face
of International Terrorism against a established Government of 1300
years old Khilafa compromised of vast land of Asia, Africa and Europe.

So now is the time to arrange an election of Khalifa and hand over power
from local sub-contractors of the Western Military Powers or Crusaders
peacefully; if we all want a permanent peaceful and war free world.
Go through the following URL if you are the real followers of Islam.
Enough is enough now is the time that all the rulers in the land of 1300
old Khilafa must hand over their powers to a elected Khalifa without
any further delay. Other wise the rulers of the anti-Islamic nation
states in the land of 1300 old Khilafa will face the same fate as faced
by Russia in Afghanistan and Chechnia.

The URLs are:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~luqman
http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/about/caliph/choose1.htm
http://cwis.usc.edu:80/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/040.smt.html
http://www.twf.org
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/

No religion teaches to kill innocent people or innocent children, or to
kill some person for the guilt of
another person. But when question of Fundamental Islam comes; be sure
that all Muslims are fundamentalists i. e. they must believe in One
Brotherhood/Umma/Khilafa as the only political System of Islam, they
believe in five times prayer, one month fasting, and to give charity
whichever they have beyond their need, they also believe all Prophets
and the books. We all must avoid the politics of killing and it is
needles to say innocent children of some parents. So we express our
condolences to the parents of the children who were victims of
international diplomacy of false doing, wrong doing and injustices.
Justice delays justice denied.
Can you give any example that before arrival of Lawrence of Arabia in
Jeddah, any Muslims killed any children of any Jews or any Christians?
Never. And we have many references from books written by Jews and
Christian that when there was no security for Jews in Europe, they had
the fullest protection of shelters from Morocco to Cairo and from
Yemen o Istanbul with highest position as minister, Physician and
scholars. Before the abolition of Khilafat any Jews or Christian was
welcomed in the land of Khilafat/Caliphate or distance land under Muslim
rules. For example The Englishman were allowed to do business in India
by Emperor Jahangir and what way the British used this business we all
know it; from ruling class, Muslim became more backward class in India
within 100 years i.e. 1957 to 1857, Muslim lost their rein and Indians
became subject of the British Emperor. And central land of Khilafat
were divided into so many nation states. Sir how many Arabs became
homeless by the illegal immigrant from Europe in Palestine. Everyday
those Palestinians are given a false hope, hope of lies; they live in
tents and those illegal immigrants live in tall building on the land
belonged to those Palestine; who now live in tents far from their
ancestral home at the mercy of so called civilized world who called them
terrorist every now and then. You may ask who is illegal immigrants.
Answer is those who arrived in the land of Khilafat without any legal
status i.e. without approval of the immigrant dept. of the Khilafat. You
may say Khilafat is a past story, you the illegal immigrants from Europe
and America will control that land through business and commerce of
interest and production of luxurious goods. What is historical
background of your idea?
You requested for immigration status to Sultan Abdul Hamid, who knew the
consequences, than you deposed the Sultan by a secret Jew, known as
Kamal Ataturk and abolished that 1300 years old Khilafat altogether to
clear your ways. Please read "Secret Jews". How long you will fool the
World Muslims. Is it possible that you will live in peace where as
entire world Muslims will live like a mad umma/nation?
In the past Sultan Byber of Egypt re-established the Khilafat after the
destruction of Baghdad and Abbaside Khilafat, than came Osmani. If there
was Khilafat than we could change the leadership from Turkish or some
secret Jews to the Arab or Khalifa as Arab and vice-Khalifa as Turk or
vice versa. But now you occupy the central land of Khilafa and policing
and dividing that land. Thus you may think that no Kurdish Saladdin will
come from Cairo or no Muhammed Ali, the Commander of an Albanian
regiment Albeni Muhammad will go to southern Arabia to crush the revolt
against the Khilafat and to keep the Khilafat united. President of Prime
minister of the illegal immigrant have no courage to announce in public
that we are sorry what we did in the past and now is the time that
whoever has lost their land can come back to their land, we will also
build tall building for them, they will work side by side with the
illegal immigrants as brother as cousin without any fear and this
statement is the only solution for peace for the land of 1300 years old
Khilafat. That illegal immigrants will not be the obstacle for
re-establishment of the Khilafat or will give any against the Khilafat
as they in the past, they will live in peace and will allow their
cousins to live in peace without fear of any war.

What is going on in Albania at this moment and who is responsible for
that? The followings are true story of that from "The history of
Albania, Routledge of Kegan Paul, London, Boston and Henly, p. 151.":

Only in the spring of 1913 did the idea of recognizing Albania's full
indepen-dence from the Porte make any headway at the London Conference.
Once Turk's withdrawal from the western part of the Balkan peninsula was
estab-lished, any territorial relationship between vassal and suzerain
became impossible: Austria-Hungrey and Italy therefore proposed, at the
beginning of May, that Albania should break its link with Turkey. On 29
July 1913 Russia at last gave up its resistance and the Ambassadors
Conference recognized Albania's indepen-dence, proclaiming it a
Sovereign heredi-tary principality, whose neutrality was guaranteed by
the Great Powers.

And from " Quotation from 'THE MOHAMMADAN DYNASTIES', CHRONO-LOGICAL AND
GENEALOG-ICAL TABLES WITH HISTORICAL INTRODUCTIONS by STANLEY
LANE-POOL":

This signal success secured the Turks from invasion from the north, and
the history of the next two centuries is a long record of triumphs.
Constan-tinople fell to Mohammad II in 1453, and the last remnant of the
Byzantine Empire was thereby destroyed. The Crimea was annexed (1475),
the Aegean islands became Ottoman soil, and the Turkish flag waved even
in Italy over the castle of Otranto. In his brief reign of eight years,
Selim I, 'the Grim,' defeated the Shah of Persia, and added Kurdistan
and DiyarBakr to the Turkish Empire; took Syria, Egypt and Arabia from
the Mamluks (1517); and not only became the master of the Holy Cities of
Mecca and Medina, but received from the last 'Abbasid Caliph of Cairo
the relics of the Prophet Mohammad and the right of succes-sion to the
Caliphate, in virtue of which the Ottoman Sultans have ever since
claimed the homage of the faithful.

In the past there was no division of Muslims like son of the soil and
outsiders, and or the higher class ie Lord and slave, the ruler could be
any one irrespective of of his race or originality. The Qurdish people,
who is now deprived politically, became famous in history. One of such
Qurdish tribe was Saladdin. Muhammed Ali, the Commander of an Albanian
regiment who and his few genrations ruled Egypt was also outsider,
probably a mixture of European race, the Slaves known as Mamluk ('owned
slave applied to white slave) in Egypt, even in India the slaves ruled
in Delhi known as Sultans of Delhi, which started by Kutb-ud-Din (or
Kutb-aldin) who was appointed as viceroy of India (Delhi) by his master
(Lord) Muhammad Ghor who conquered north India including Delhi. We
believe in inter-nationalism of the Muslim, where there was no
difference between a master and a slave, a white and a black, a Arab or
Non-Arab, a Asian or African, a European or a Non-European which started
from the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), which he reminded in his last
Sermon in his last Hajj address. Thus Hadrat Billal (a black or Habsi
and also slave) was the first Muazzin, Hazrat Salman Farsi (Iranian
belonged to rich family, but who also became a slave for his search of
God through a Bishop) was a major adviser, though there was slave trade
by the European in America and the black was deprived minimum human
right by the European race few years ago in USA:.

There will be peace in the land of Khilafat; when war of International
terrorists will end their war against 1300 years old Khilafat. World
Muslims are not terrorists, they do not land in others land and stab
from back or divide other lands. Islam is the religion of unity and thus
they always kept unity of their land from central Asia to Morocco, to
Spain, to Albania/Bosnia as one state. Can you give one example that
Muslims occupied a land and divided that land to rule indirectly or
bribed some opposite group to revolt against any internal government?
Can you give one example that any intelligence group from the Khilafat
or any Muslim country went to other’s land, supplied arms to a group of
people to revolt or killed any foreign ruler?
Muslims are not coward and they do not believe in any satanic or
devilish behavior. You will see so many films, read so many books on
International spying and can you give one example that Muslim groups
tried to destabilize other country or other’s land though they vanished
from many part of the world, from Spain and from American Continent?

When Alexander defeated Indian king Purr, he asked Purr what he wants.
Purr replied a hero expect from a hero like the behavior of a hero.
Alexander withdraw from India and maintained peace. So before calling
Muslims as Fundamentalists or with other objective, one should see his
own face in the mirror and than he will see his own face as a face of
coward not a hero.

[sagesse]

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:07:14 -0400, Khondakar Golam Mowla
<kgm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Only some traitors like Ataturk, who was a secret Jew, whose ancestors
>were saved and
>were given shelter under the Caliphate. In exchage he abolished
>Caliphate in 1924 converted Turkey into a non-Islamic country.
>He is the greatest terrorist and traitor in the world as he destroyed
>only one Political System of Islam. Now time has come to punish
>all who are part of that traitor.

Have you ever been to Turkey ?
It's not because you write everyday the same things about Atatürk that
you will finally be right. I hope that you understand a few words of
Turkish: "Atatürk seni a sar baba" Oguz, kim bu adam yaa ?

>Each of the more than one billion World Muslims have the right to play a
>role like Abraham Lincoln to re-establish Islam's only one political
>System of Khilafa.

Hihhohahahhaha.....

>Consider how Abraham Lincoln kept this country i.e. USA united; where>
>the goats and tiger drink the same water like he and me from Iraq,
>Kuwait, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.; where as we fight in Iraq-Iran,
>Iraq-Kuwait etc. which is itself an act of anti-Islam.

No, no you're wrong. War is exactly what Islam is.

how much we spent =>
>in the above unnecessary wars. =

Which war is necessary ? IMHO, only the war which is lead against
obscurantism is necessary.

>The World Muslims never accepted all terrorist acts against 1300 years
>Khilafa; from Lawrence of Arabia's arrival in Jeddah. Kamal Ataturk's (a
>secret Jew) plan and action to League of Nation/United Nation's
>partition plan.

Bak gene basladi, secret jew'lukla.

>So now is the time to arrange an election of Khalifa and hand over power
>from local sub-contractors of the Western Military Powers or Crusaders
>peacefully

(...)

>Enough is enough now is the time that all the rulers in the land of 1300
>old Khilafa must hand over their powers to a elected Khalifa without
>any further delay.
>

Oh yeah, well who will have the right to vote in such an election ? I
mean, do you think that women have the same right as the men ? If your
answer is 'yes', than you can thank Atatürk and not Mohammed....

>No religion teaches to kill innocent people or innocent children

Hiç gülecegim yoktu. Qoran teaches you how to kill other people. Can
you show me only one sentence which shows evidence that the so-called
holy Qoran deals with Love and Peace ?

>Can you give any example that before arrival of Lawrence of Arabia in
>Jeddah, any Muslims killed any children of any Jews or any Christians?
>Never.

Do you know how the Turks were converted to Islam ? Kan gölü,
Khondakar, kan gölü.... Of course, they were not Jews or Christians,
but there were children....

>This signal success secured the Turks from invasion from the north, and
>the history of the next two centuries is a long record of triumphs.
>Constan-tinople fell to Mohammad II in 1453, and the last remnant of the
>Byzantine Empire was thereby destroyed.

Hey, Khondakar, listen up ! Wasn't "Mohammad II" also a secret Jew or
a secret Christian (I don't care about such considerations) ? :-))

A last word, Khondakar, if you want, you can come and see us in
Turkey. We could spend good time and drink RAKI together, hmmmm ?
--
sagesse
http://www.mygale.org/01/sagesse/

[ahmedgo...@gmail.com]

1 Nisan 1998 Çarşamba 11:00:00 UTC+3 tarihinde Atill...@hotmail.com yazdı:
> HE WAS NO JEW!
>
> SORRY GUYS..HE WAS PURE TURK, SO HE DID NOT LIKE YOUR CULTURE.
>
> LIKE WE ALL TURKS DO..
>
> LEAVE US ALONE WE HAVE NOTHING TOGETHER WITH ARABS EXCEPT THE RELIGION.

[Atakan]

all iste ne dedim kabak gibi ortaya cikiyor
anlarini esseklerin siktigi sct kostebekleri. Bu millet sizi bulacak ve
ananizi sikecek ..bende kapida bilet kesecem ..

orospu cocuklari..



On Thu, 26 Oct 2017 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT), ahmedgo...@gmail.com wrote:

>!1 Nisan 1998 Çarşamba 11:00:00 UTC+3 tarihinde Atill...@hotmail.com yazdı:
>!> HE WAS NO JEW!
>!>
>!> SORRY GUYS..HE WAS PURE TURK, SO HE DID NOT LIKE YOUR CULTURE.
>!>
>!> LIKE WE ALL TURKS DO..
>!>
>!> LEAVE US ALONE WE HAVE NOTHING TOGETHER WITH ARABS EXCEPT THE RELIGION.
>!>
>!> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
>!> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

[LinkciNiyazi]

Bunlar adamin boguldu oldu nun oyunlari..alistik