"Foreign" names for "Thai" children?
Olarn Seriniyom
I believe it is not permitted to name Thai babies with foreign
first names, but I don't know the details about the rules and regulations;
does anyone in SCT know? Recently, a Thai lady whose husband is a European,
has been having trouble registering her baby's birth at the amphur (district
office) because she wanted the baby to have a "farang" name while the baby's
surname is still Thai. She was told to cut the last syllable out of her
baby's name so it would sound less foreign, but the father objected. I have
not come across this problem before as in most cases the babies adopt the
nationality of the father, but this mom wants her baby to have dual
nationalities ( I told her this isn't actually allowed ).
You chaps out there with Thai wives, have you managed to secure dual
nationalities for your children? If so, how?
Olarn
Alan Dawson
In article <1Mu7xwJh...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
ol...@mozart.inet.co.th (Olarn Seriniyom) writes:
> I believe it is not permitted to name Thai babies with foreign
>first names, but I don't know the details about the rules and regulations;
There certainly is no law about this at all. You can call (register)
your child whatever you want, under the law. I absolutely believe
that some dimwitted amphur officials might think otherwise -- might
think they're the law, in fact -- and bully parents into something
else, though. But said officials are breaking the law. The law in
Thailand is that you can call your child anything you want. The issue
of "foreign names" and "Thai names" absolutely does not arise for
children, where "absolutely" is an absolute word.
>does anyone in SCT know? Recently, a Thai lady whose husband is a European,
>has been having trouble registering her baby's birth at the amphur (district
>office) because she wanted the baby to have a "farang" name while the baby's
>surname is still Thai. She was told to cut the last syllable out of her
The easiest way to handle these people is simply to go to another
amphur office. The baby BY LAW can be registered with any name. At
the same time and on the same document (birth certificate) Thai
nationality can easily -- repeat easily -- be obtained.
I'm only curious about this "surname is Thai," though. Normally, kids
are registered with their father's name, no matter what nationality
the father is. There is no requirement -- let's repeat that --
absolutely no requirment that a child who is a Thai must have a Thai
surname. In effect, of course, the child's family name BECOMES a Thai
name when the child is nationalised. For example, "Dawson" is now a
Thai family name, by law. This is a curious perversion of the law
requiring naturalized Thais to take "Thai" surnames, but please
believe me that it *is* the law as it applies to children, although
not to adults.
>baby's name so it would sound less foreign, but the father objected. I have
If the parents object, then they should insist on having their kid
registered under the name they want. They can do this no matter what
some idio... um, kindly and nationalistic amphur officers say about
it. They can go through such an official, but it's easier and less
stressful just to go around him by going to a different amphur office.
>not come across this problem before as in most cases the babies adopt the
>nationality of the father, but this mom wants her baby to have dual
>nationalities ( I told her this isn't actually allowed ).
The child can have Thai nationality. No government gives dual
nationality, but a child under 18 in Thailand can have Thai
nationality and any number of other nationalities granted by other
governments. ANY child born to a Thai citizen can have Thai
nationality, quickly and automatically and cheaply -- 15 baht, I
recall, is the price of the stamp.
> You chaps out there with Thai wives, have you managed to secure dual
>nationalities for your children? If so, how?
One does not secure dual nationality for children. One gets two
or more nationalities, one by one, by application to each government
concerned. In the case of a child born in Thailand to one parent,
Thai nationality is automatic upon application at the amphur. The
Thai government plays no role, and has no interest, in whatever other
nationalities a child may have. In my own case, no Thai official ever
has even asked about other nationalities my kids may, or may not,
hold. It's not their business to know, and they've never shown any
interest in it. Similarly, other governments would never ask me if
my kids have Thai nationality, if I applied for other nationalities,
which I may or may not have done.
Thai nationality is actually achieved by a notation on the back of
the birth certificate, either at the time of registration of birth or
at any time before the child reaches 18. (After 18, another procedure
is used.)
Any amphur official who resists this is breaking the law. Very few do
this, although I'm sure a few "nationalists" do. But the actual law is
very clear and there's no reason whatsoever to fear the dimwitted or
recalcitrant few amphur people who feel this way. Any parent *can*
act in the best interests of his child, and Thai law is entirely on
his side, 100%.
The other good news is that there is no requirement to register birth
or naturalize children at the amphur in which you live. ANY amphur
office can handle ANY application for birth registration or Thai
nationality. So my suggestion to your friend is just to go to another
amphur office. If the officials there are curious, tell them exactly
why she doesn't go to her home amphur office. She should do fine, and
get exactly what you say she wants.
--
Alan Dawson
There are always risks in freedom.
The only risk in bondage is that of breaking free. (Geta Bellin)
Notebook
My wife is laughing about this name, Daw-Son. Does it really mean
"short penis" in Thai? Why don't you just let your kids have a
Thai last name. That's cruel!
Thanit Hasadsri
daw...@mozart.inet.co.th said :
>>There certainly is no law about this at all. You can call (register)
>>your child whatever you want, under the law. I absolutely believe
>>that some dimwitted amphur officials might think otherwise -- might
>>think they're the law, in fact -- and bully parents into something
>>else, though. But said officials are breaking the law. The law in
>>Thailand is that you can call your child anything you want.
>than...@lightspeed.net (Thanit Hasadsri) wrote:
>I believe that there is one exception that a long Thai name is not
>allowed. It is reserved for the Royal family.
daw...@mozart.inet.co.th says:
I don't doubt there are a couple of exceptions. I'm not sure what you
mean by "a long Thai name," though. Do you mean just one special
name, or any name with more than four syllables, or what? (Most of the
current Royal Family have three-syllable names, excepting the Crown
Prince -- and the silent syllables in Ubolrattana.)
than...@lightspeed.net (Thanit Hasadsri) says:
I mean any name with several syllables.
It depends on discretion of the Thai official.
Thanit Hasadsri
In article <eWt7xwMY...@mozart.inet.co.th>, daw...@mozart.inet.co.th says...
>There certainly is no law about this at all. You can call (register)
>your child whatever you want, under the law. I absolutely believe
>that some dimwitted amphur officials might think otherwise -- might
>think they're the law, in fact -- and bully parents into something
>else, though. But said officials are breaking the law. The law in
>Thailand is that you can call your child anything you want.
I believe that there is one exception that a long Thai name is not
allowed. It is reserved for the Royal family.
. In effect, of course, the child's family name BECOMES a Thai
>name when the child is nationalised. For example, "Dawson" is now a
>Thai family name, by law.
Becareful to prononuce "Dawson" in Thai . :)
> Alan Dawson
Mr Richard Stowell
Thanit Hasadsri (than...@lightspeed.net) wrote:
: I believe that there is one exception that a long Thai name is not
: allowed. It is reserved for the Royal family.
I guess you need to define what is meant by "long". I've seen some awfully long Thai names.
According to my wife it is mainly wealthier Thai of Chinese ancestry who tend to choose long
names. Country Thai tend to pick simpler name, by choice, not by law.
My own son has a Thai first name and western middle and last name and had no problem
registering his birth as a Thai.
Alan Dawson
In article <inF8xwJh...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
ol...@mozart.inet.co.th (Olarn Seriniyom) writes:
> What about the mother's marital status? Do you know if this has any
>effect on the naming of babies?
Sure. If there is "no father" on paper for some reason, including the
fact she's not legally married, then the kid normally gets mom's
family name. And the reverse is true -- if there is "no father" on
paper but some man shows up claiming he's the father, and the mother
supports that, then the kid will probably get his name.
Well-known example is the runner, Raevadee. I'd hesitate to say
there is an absolute rule about this, because there are varying
degrees of "no father" -- could be divorce, death, disappearance,
abandonment or any number of other things. The mother may simply not
know who is the father, because there are a few or a few dozen
possible candidates from among her, um, large number of "close
friends." It could mean that the father died in a car wreck two weeks
before the birth. It could be a common-law marriage without an actual
marriage certificate.
In the latter case, the kid would almost certainly get the father's
name BUT there'd be some discussion about it. In the end, the one
known parent -- mom -- would *probably* get her choice. Again, you
can't say this absolutely, because the person named by the mother as
the father might object. Some few cases are probably quite
contentious, and there is no hard-and-fast rule.
My original post was meant to discuss the case you laid out, where an
officially married (on Thai paper) couple had a kid with a Thai birth
certificate, and husband and wife wanted the same thing for the kid
-- but the amphur was giving them a hard time. In THAT very common
case, the procedures are clear.
By the way, it is the Nai Amphur himself (or one herself, heh) who
has to sign the birth certificate to attest to Thai nationality, so
you're right that it wouldn't be an amphur clerk taking the law into
his own hands. There ARE some few Nai Amphur around the country who
have their own peculiar ideas on certain subjects like this. Hell,
I've heard of Nai Amphur who absolutely refused to register a
marriage involving a foreigner because they want to maintain the
purity of Thai blood, which is different from all other blood on the
planet.
My point was that it's not necessary to deal with these ridiculous
people. They are very thin on the ground, pretty much an endangered
species, heh-heh. Just go to the next amphur and get on with your life.
--
Alan Dawson
If God had wanted people to have sex, he would have given them... um...
frank lee
>You can call (register)your child whatever you want, under the law. I
>absolutely believe that some dimwitted amphur officials might think otherwise
Thank you for this information, Mr. Dawson. We contacted the Thai embassy in
Ottawa, Canada and they refused to "register" our daughter because we had
elected to give the child my wife's surname on her birth certificate. They
were only willing to go ahead with the paperwork if she used my surname. We
had already decided to deal with the matter on our next trip to Thailand.
frank lee
otha...@terranet.ab.ca
Thanit Hasadsri
In article <inF8xwJh...@mozart.inet.co.th>, ol...@mozart.inet.co.th says...
> I had previously heard that some Thai couple who tried to give their
>babies exotic or farang names were frustrated in their attempts by the
>amphur officials. I did not want to believe there could be a regulation
>about this since it would be not only stupid but also unenforceable. I have
>never before heard that any foreigners in Thailand (and I am privileged to
>know a good many of all nationalities) had any trouble naming their babies
>what ever they want, so it came as a bit of a surprise that in this
>particular case the amphur dragged its feet for over six weeks in issuing
>a birth certificate/registration, and the reason they cited for the delay
>(as related to me by the chap at my place of work who helps facilitate these
>things) was that the baby's name was too long by one syllable!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Could you please tell us what the baby's name is or
how many syllable of the name ?
Thanks.
Popani
In article <4sphv1$e...@rover.ucs.ualberta.ca>, otha...@terranet.ab.ca
(frank lee) writes:
>In article <eWt7xwMY...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
daw...@mozart.inet.co.th
>says...
>
>>You can call (register)your child whatever you want, under the law. I
>>absolutely believe that some dimwitted amphur officials might think
>otherwise
>
>
I have Thai friends with English names. Our parents are friends as well,
so if there had been any problem with that I'm sure I would have heard
about it. Sometimes I think Thai law is subject to the interpretation of
official you happen to be dealing with at the moment.
Olarn Seriniyom
In article <eWt7xwMY...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
daw...@mozart.inet.co.th (Alan Dawson) wrote:
>In article <1Mu7xwJh...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
>ol...@mozart.inet.co.th (Olarn Seriniyom) writes:
>
>> I believe it is not permitted to name Thai babies with foreign
>>first names, but I don't know the details about the rules and regulations;
>
I knew I could rely on you to reply, khun A.
I had previously heard that some Thai couple who tried to give their
babies exotic or farang names were frustrated in their attempts by the
amphur officials. I did not want to believe there could be a regulation
about this since it would be not only stupid but also unenforceable. I have
never before heard that any foreigners in Thailand (and I am privileged to
know a good many of all nationalities) had any trouble naming their babies
what ever they want, so it came as a bit of a surprise that in this
particular case the amphur dragged its feet for over six weeks in issuing
a birth certificate/registration, and the reason they cited for the delay
(as related to me by the chap at my place of work who helps facilitate these
things) was that the baby's name was too long by one syllable!
> I absolutely believe
>that some dimwitted amphur officials might think otherwise -- might
>think they're the law, in fact -- and bully parents into something
>else, though.
Could be right, but in my experience of dealing with gov. officials
(admittedly not hugely extensive) the folks who do the tedious paperwork
have to do everything by the book, and are not very likely to make trouble
on their own initiatives. Possibly the "restrictions" may have been passed
down by the bosses, perhaps as a kind of unwritten rule to discourage Thais
from giving their babies exotic names.
>
>I'm only curious about this "surname is Thai," though. Normally, kids
>are registered with their father's name, no matter what nationality
>the father is. There is no requirement -- let's repeat that --
>absolutely no requirment that a child who is a Thai must have a Thai
>surname.
What about the mother's marital status? Do you know if this has any
effect on the naming of babies?
Thanks again for your reply, which was most informative.
Olarn
lit...@hula.net
Does anyone know the rules for bringing a Thai child out of
Thailand when marrying the mother? As in the father is not able to be
contacted (as in the Thai father is unreachable).
The application for the passport in Thailand for a child requires
both parents signatures. If the father has abandoned the child, how do I
get both of them able to get passports?
Alan Dawson
>I have Thai friends with English names. Our parents are friends as well,
>so if there had been any problem with that I'm sure I would have heard
>about it. Sometimes I think Thai law is subject to the interpretation of
>official you happen to be dealing with at the moment.
Not exactly -- or, rather, not usually.
Thailand is not a land where rule of law has caught on entirely. But
it's a country WITH laws. There's a lot of potential contradiction in
this.
Sometimes that contradiction comes to the fore, when that "official"
decides he doesn't like you, your face, your family or what you're
doing -- for any reason at all. Very, VERY seldom does the official
interpret or not know the law. Usually he's acting *above* the law or
despite the law.
The problem for the rule-of-law types is that almost always -- but
not always -- said official is acting in *your* interest when he does
this. Usually -- but not all the time -- there is great advantage to
operating outside, above or in spite of the law.
Bargaining with the tax man (very common, daily) is *always* an
advantage to the citizen, since the worst possible case is having to
pay the original bill; being denied a name for your kid (extremely
rare) is at least maddening and frustrating, and possibly much worse.
Up the road from my house, outbound traffic takes over one of the
inbound lanes for a few hours a day, completely informally and
totally illegally. This is "good" for 98 per cent of drivers, and 1
or 2 per cent who have to make a right turn are *very* angry. But by
law it is completely illegal.
For me, lack of rule-of-law is a feature and not a bug. I truly
resist the various (imported) movements designed to homogenize
Thailand into a (Western) globalized country. Your mileage may vary.
--
Alan Dawson
We are what we pretend to be,
so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.
Mr Richard Stowell
Olarn Seriniyom (ol...@mozart.inet.co.th) wrote:
: What about the mother's marital status? Do you know if this has any
: effect on the naming of babies?
I don't think so. In my case, my wife and I didn't register our marriage in Thailand. The
birth papers showed my full name as father, my wife's full Thai name as mother. The baby was
given a Thai first name and western middle name and my family name. No hassles or delays, the
registration took place directly at the hospital. Only my passport attended the ceremony.
There was no requirement for personal attendance by myself or my wife.
Guy Turf
ol...@mozart.inet.co.th (Olarn Seriniyom) wrote:
> I believe it is not permitted to name Thai babies with foreign
>first names, but I don't know the details about the rules and regulations;
>does anyone in SCT know? Recently, a Thai lady whose husband is a European,
>has been having trouble registering her baby's birth at the amphur (district
>office) because she wanted the baby to have a "farang" name while the baby's
>surname is still Thai. She was told to cut the last syllable out of her
>baby's name so it would sound less foreign, but the father objected. I have
>not come across this problem before as in most cases the babies adopt the
>nationality of the father, but this mom wants her baby to have dual
>nationalities ( I told her this isn't actually allowed ).
> You chaps out there with Thai wives, have you managed to secure dual
>nationalities for your children? If so, how?
I thought if the wife is Thai and the husband farang, that the baby
couldn't have thai nationality, so most of the women of mixed
marriages staying in Thailand , told to the amphur that the
father was unknown. Is this then only a rumour?
please sct-mmbers, yr advise.
Guy
>Olarn
Olarn Seriniyom
In article <4sp9ks$a...@tofu.alt.net>,
than...@lightspeed.net (Thanit Hasadsri) wrote:
>
>Could you please tell us what the baby's name is or
>how many syllable of the name ?
>Thanks.
I am sorry, I do not feel that I am at liberty to turn this into
a discussion about a specific case, which is what it would become if I
publicly state the baby's name (it is a little bit unusual, but perfectly
normal and nice name). It has the same number of syllable as "Alexander"
and is probably only a little less common. Cutting off the last syllable
would have made as much sense as "Alexand" would.
>
Guy Turf
daw...@mozart.inet.co.th (Alan Dawson) wrote:
>In article <1Mu7xwJh...@mozart.inet.co.th>,
>ol...@mozart.inet.co.th (Olarn Seriniyom) writes:
>> I believe it is not permitted to name Thai babies with foreign
>>first names, but I don't know the details about the rules and regulations;
>There certainly is no law about this at all. You can call (register)
>your child whatever you want, under the law.
I dont know how it is in the US or Thailand, but in all european
countries I know, there are limits . You cannot give your child
a "registered "Thai name , as this name is not mentionned
in the official namelist. So Mixed couples overhere ( in Belgium )
give their children farang names , but can called them of course
by their " cheu len ".
Guy
Alan Dawson
In article <4t0ee9$2...@news.Belgium.EU.net>,
Guy....@ping.be (Guy Turf) writes:
>I thought if the wife is Thai and the husband farang, that the baby
>couldn't have thai nationality, so most of the women of mixed
>marriages staying in Thailand , told to the amphur that the
>father was unknown. Is this then only a rumour?
This used to be the general case. Although there were exceptions, the
majority of kids born to a foreign father had no real way to get Thai
nationality. Even those who did, it was a long, difficult and
troublesome thing to do.
All of this changed, completely, in 1992 -- or was it late 1991?
Anyhow, an entirely new law and procedure was introduced. Since then,
any child with a Thai parent has the right to Thai nationality -- and
receives Thai nationality (upon application) in an extremely simple,
cost-free and problem-free trip to the amphur office.
--
Alan Dawson
It's the government, *stupid*!
Dan
Notebook wrote:
>
> My wife is laughing about this name, Daw-Son. Does it really mean
> "short penis" in Thai? Why don't you just let your kids have a
> Thai last name. That's cruel!
>
No problem, his kids just need to show around how much they have :)
But if he's really looking for some new family name, how's about
"Daw-san-tautatum".
Alan Dawson
In article <31F102...@hula.net>,
"lit...@hula.net" <lit...@hula.net> writes:
>Does anyone know the rules for bringing a Thai child out of
>Thailand when marrying the mother? As in the father is not able to be
>contacted (as in the Thai father is unreachable).
It depends entirely on what "unreachable" means. The mother should
take the child to the passport office and tell people there the exact
circumstances. They have rules, regs and WAYS AROUND just about
anything. It is extremely unusual for a kid to be turned down for a
passport, this much I can tell you for sure. If the father isn't
available to sign, then there are contingency plans.
The child does not require any permission to leave Thailand. Once a
rug rat has a passport, he's just like anyone else.
--
Alan Dawson
How come wrong numbers are never busy?