Mai Dai/ Mai Chai

tester

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Dec 12, 2003, 6:31:53 PM12/12/03

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I'd be interested in comments from "those in the know"...or those who
*think* they know :-)

Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right? Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My
question is this: are these two terms interchangable for "can't" or
"won't"? Or are there subtle differences? TIA

tester

Ron & Ree

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Dec 12, 2003, 6:58:21 PM12/12/03

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mai chai = it is not
like to answer
chai mai - Is it?
you would either reply, chai - it is or mai chai - it isn't

--
Ron & Ree Williams - http://www.ronree.com/
"In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as
possible from one class of citizens to give to the other." - Voltaire

Ralf Chinger

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Dec 13, 2003, 7:18:33 PM12/13/03

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My god, where is this NG heading.

My Hobby

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Dec 12, 2003, 8:55:30 PM12/12/03

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"tester" <tes...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:brdint$s...@library1.airnews.net...

mai dai has slightly different meanings depending on where it is used on the
sentence.

If you say 'mai dai pai' it means 'don't go'. But if you say 'bai mai dai'
it means 'can't go'. But in some cases the distinction between 'can' and
'do' is not clear when using 'dai'. Like when you ask for a discount 'lot
dai mai' you can think of it as either 'can you discount (the price)' or
'will you discount (the price)'.

You can interchange 'mai chai' for 'mai dai' in some cases, although I think
that 'mai dai' is better grammar. 'mai chai' is just best for saying 'no'

Tim

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Dec 12, 2003, 9:08:03 PM12/12/03

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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:31:53 -0800, "tester" <tes...@aol.com> wrote:

>I'd be interested in comments from "those in the know"...or those who
>*think* they know :-)
>
>Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right?

Correct

> Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
>chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My
>question is this: are these two terms interchangable for "can't" or
>"won't"? Or are there subtle differences? TIA
>
>tester
>

Not interchangable at all. If you can or can't should not be answered
with a simple chai or mai chai always dai or mai dai, at least in my
imperfect understanding of the language. I think you are equating it
too closely with the English.

Example:
Can you go? Pai dai mai?
No (I can't). Mai dai.
In English the "I can't" is implied while in Thai the "can't" is all
that is necesary. I am sure you would be understood but it would sound
odd. Actually Mai Dai would sound odd to me without saying pai first
but I don't know if that is necesary or not.

Tim

I wish I didn't know now
what I didn't know then.

Johpa Deumlaokeng

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Dec 12, 2003, 9:20:51 PM12/12/03

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tester in Message-id: <brdint$s...@library1.airnews.net>

>Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right? Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
>chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My
>question is this: are these two terms interchangable for "can't" or
>"won't"?

The term "mai dai" is telling someone you are unable to do something or that
something is unable to be done by another, or that a situation is not possible.
While "mai chai" is simply negating a question that is asking your
confirmation. They are usually not interchangeable as they are respones to
different questions.

If someone asks you: "Can you do this for me" one does not normally answer with
" that is not correct."

The differences are not sublte in any way.

Also, the phrase "mai dai" followed by a verb places a negation of an action
into the past tense as in "mai dai pai nai", " I didn't go anywhere." So "mai
dai + verb" functions the same as the English word "didn't."

Happy Trails

Johpa

Lawrence

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Dec 13, 2003, 12:33:07 AM12/13/03

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Johpa Deumlaokeng wrote:

> tester in Message-id: <brdint$s...@library1.airnews.net>
>
> >Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right? Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
> >chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My
> >question is this: are these two terms interchangable for "can't" or
> >"won't"?
>
> The term "mai dai" is telling someone you are unable to do something or that
> something is unable to be done by another, or that a situation is not possible.
> While "mai chai" is simply negating a question that is asking your
> confirmation. They are usually not interchangeable as they are respones to
> different questions.

>
>
> If someone asks you: "Can you do this for me" one does not normally answer with
> " that is not correct."

True, but, like in English, 'mai chai' is also used often to signal that you are
off track with your thinking/questioning.....
"Mai chai", followed, hopefully, by the needed clarification..."No, not like
that,....What I mean is..."
I hear it often, mostly directed at me :)

>
>
> The differences are not sublte in any way.
>
> Also, the phrase "mai dai" followed by a verb places a negation of an action
> into the past tense as in "mai dai pai nai", " I didn't go anywhere." So "mai
> dai + verb" functions the same as the English word "didn't."

A simple way to signal your (future) intention of 'mai dai', is to add ca' (will)
before..."Pome ca' mai dai pai nai"..."I will not/won't go anywhere"

Lawrence

John Sharman

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Dec 13, 2003, 5:14:57 AM12/13/03

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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:31:53 -0800, "tester" <tes...@aol.com> wrote:

>I'd be interested in comments from "those in the know"...or those who
>*think* they know :-)
>
>Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right? Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
>chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My

Others (especially Johpa) have answered your main question pretty
comprehensively.

My comment concerns the use of /chai"/ as a standalone positive
response to a question, equivalent to "Yes". While it can be used in
that way, farangs tend to utilise it thus in many cases in which a
Thai native speaker never would.

If a question is put to you ending in the form /chai" mai+/, then
/chai"/ is usually the proper affirmative response. However, very
commonly questions in Thai are framed: /[verb] mai+/ in which case the
most natural response will be /[verb]/ or /mai" [verb]/.

Similarly the negative /mai"/ on its own seldom sounds right as a
negative response to a question, though farangs use it that way very
often.
--
Regards,
John Sharman
<jays...@myrealbox.com>

John Sharman

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Dec 13, 2003, 5:49:24 AM12/13/03

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On 13 Dec 2003 02:20:51 GMT, joh...@aol.comnet (Johpa Deumlaokeng)
wrote:

>tester in Message-id: <brdint$s...@library1.airnews.net>
>
>
>
>>Mai dai= "can not" or "can't", right? Okay, I've also heard the words "mai
>>chai", "mai" seemingly negating "chai" (often a positive reply). My
>>question is this: are these two terms interchangable for "can't" or
>>"won't"?
>
>The term "mai dai" is telling someone you are unable to do something or that
>something is unable to be done by another, or that a situation is not possible.

Absolutely correct, but it is worth noting that /mai" dai"/ is not
always the best translation in that sense. Where the inability is a
matter of mental state or capacity, contrary obligation or lack of
permission, /mai" dai"/ will usually be okay, but where it is an issue
more of physical incapacity, /mai" wai+/ is frequently preferable.
Thus:

/dEEn- mai" wai+/ = "I can't walk"
/thon+ mai" wai+/ = "I can't bear it"

etc.

Johpa Deumlaokeng

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Dec 13, 2003, 10:07:36 AM12/13/03

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John in Message-id: <61qltv8auum4r4ipb...@4ax.com>

>Absolutely correct, but it is worth noting that /mai" dai"/ is not
>always the best translation in that sense. Where the inability is a
>matter of mental state or capacity, contrary obligation or lack of
>permission, /mai" dai"/ will usually be okay, but where it is an issue
>more of physical incapacity, /mai" wai+/ is frequently preferable.

John is correct that using /mai wai/ is often better when referring to physical
activities, but I think there are here some subtle differences. I tend to use
/mai wai/ when the inability of perform an action is somewhat temporary as when
I am just too fatigued to continue. For example, a person who is just too
tired, too hungry, or simply too bored to continue walking might say /deen mai
wai/ but that term would not be used to describe the situation of an injured
person who could no longer walk as they would be described as /deen mai dai/.

Happy Trails

Johpa

Tchiowa

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Dec 13, 2003, 10:44:40 AM12/13/03

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"tester" <tes...@aol.com> wrote in message news:<brdint$s...@library1.airnews.net>...

Differences, but not subtle. Mai dai means "can not". Either don't
have the capacity or shouldn't do it. Mai chai means "not so" or "not
true". Generally in response to a Yes/No question or a more emphatic
"no way".

tester

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Dec 13, 2003, 1:00:05 PM12/13/03

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First, thanks for the input folks. Appreciate it. Generally, my
understanding of the usage of "mai dai" has been validated/confirmed...seems
that I have been the term correctly. However, I'm still somewhat at a loss
over what has caused me to believe that some Thais are either using the
terms somewhat incorrectly or I just don't get it. (Irish can be "thick"
sometimes.)

In the last year, I've "heard" Thais use the term "mai chai" in instances
where I thought that "mai dai" would be the correct response. Instance #1:
(and please do not take offens(c)e, anybody) while having some liquid
refreshment in a noted BKK entertainment zone a few months back, I was
visited by a lass who seemed happy to join me in watching some classical
Thai dancing to the tune of 70's rock music. As a side diversion, the
establishment was showing porno clips on cctv. (Bet that isn't available at
performances of the Royal Ballet.) Anyway, one of the actresses in the
porno seemed to be enjoying nibbling on a tube steak (presumably, a
variation of The Nutcracker Suite). I commented on the manners of the
actress, and my companion said "mai chai". I took that to mean that she did
not do the same as the actress. I found out later that was not the case
(happily). So I was further confused.

Instance #2: while chatting in an internet Thai room, I asked a very
long-time correspondent (who was at "work" in an office) if she could "chat"
now. I asked, "Can you chat now?" Answer: "mai chai...working".

In both instances, I thought that "mai dai" would have been appropriate
responses...as you all pointed out, this would approximate the English
"can't" or "won't" do. Sooooooooooooo, is it possible that these two ladies
don't know their own language...or am I still missing something here? Or
what? :-)

John Sharman

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Dec 13, 2003, 1:35:12 PM12/13/03

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On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 10:00:05 -0800, "tester" <tes...@aol.com> wrote:

>First, thanks for the input folks. Appreciate it. Generally, my
>understanding of the usage of "mai dai" has been validated/confirmed...seems
>that I have been the term correctly. However, I'm still somewhat at a loss
>over what has caused me to believe that some Thais are either using the
>terms somewhat incorrectly or I just don't get it. (Irish can be "thick"
>sometimes.)
>
>In the last year, I've "heard" Thais use the term "mai chai" in instances
>where I thought that "mai dai" would be the correct response. Instance #1:
>(and please do not take offens(c)e, anybody) while having some liquid
>refreshment in a noted BKK entertainment zone a few months back, I was
>visited by a lass who seemed happy to join me in watching some classical
>Thai dancing to the tune of 70's rock music. As a side diversion, the
>establishment was showing porno clips on cctv. (Bet that isn't available at
>performances of the Royal Ballet.) Anyway, one of the actresses in the
>porno seemed to be enjoying nibbling on a tube steak (presumably, a
>variation of The Nutcracker Suite). I commented on the manners of the
>actress, and my companion said "mai chai". I took that to mean that she did
>not do the same as the actress. I found out later that was not the case
>(happily). So I was further confused.

The point is that usually the "correct" form of response is governed
by the terms of the question. You use the word "comment" which
indicates that you were not actually asking a question. In that case,
/mai" chai"/ denotes strong disagreement with whatever it was that you
had said. Alternatively you may have misheard her (mii-chai- is
supposedly a slang expression in Thai for "condom")

>Instance #2: while chatting in an internet Thai room, I asked a very
>long-time correspondent (who was at "work" in an office) if she could "chat"
>now. I asked, "Can you chat now?" Answer: "mai chai...working".

Depends on exactly what you asked. If your question was /... dai"
mai+/ then I would indeed regard /mai" chai"/ as being an oddly formed
response.

>In both instances, I thought that "mai dai" would have been appropriate
>responses...as you all pointed out, this would approximate the English
>"can't" or "won't" do. Sooooooooooooo, is it possible that these two ladies
>don't know their own language...or am I still missing something here? Or
>what? :-)

Alex Gitlits

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Dec 13, 2003, 8:08:40 PM12/13/03

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John,

I also hear sometimes ... Mai pen... as an analogue of 'cannot' It looks
like mai pen is more to do with mental or physical inability to do
something also. It is used quite rarely though. Have you encountered this?
Alex

Tim

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Dec 13, 2003, 8:22:37 PM12/13/03

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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:08:40 +1100, Alex Gitlits
<alexg...@nospamoptushome.com.au> wrote:

>I also hear sometimes ... Mai pen... as an analogue of 'cannot' It looks
>like mai pen is more to do with mental or physical inability to do
>something also. It is used quite rarely though. Have you encountered this?
>Alex

I have heard this in the context of.

Can you swim?

Mai pen.

Lawrence

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Dec 13, 2003, 9:57:53 PM12/13/03

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Alex Gitlits wrote:

Mai pen= don't know how...

John Sharman

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Dec 13, 2003, 11:19:32 PM12/13/03

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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:08:40 +1100, Alex Gitlits
<alexg...@nospamoptushome.com.au> wrote:

>John Sharman wrote:

[..]

>> /dEEn- mai" wai+/ = "I can't walk"
>> /thon+ mai" wai+/ = "I can't bear it"
>>
>> etc.
>
>John,
>
>I also hear sometimes ... Mai pen... as an analogue of 'cannot' It looks
>like mai pen is more to do with mental or physical inability to do
>something also. It is used quite rarely though. Have you encountered this?

Indeed - it tends to be used in connection with acquired or learned
abilities. Thus:

/phuud" phaa-saa+ thai- mai" pen-/ = "I can't [don't] speak Thai" or
/fUk^hat' jon- pen/ = "Practice until you can do it"

Tim

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Dec 14, 2003, 12:32:49 AM12/14/03

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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 04:19:32 +0000, John Sharman
<jays...@myrealbox.com> wrote:

LOL

>fUk^hat' jon- pen

Did I miss something? Who is Hat and why use Jon's "pen".

Maybe some day I should learn SCT script. :-)

Johpa Deumlaokeng

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Dec 14, 2003, 12:24:34 PM12/14/03

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Tim in Message-id: <vrentvo31mjqrld0n...@4ax.com>

>I have heard this in the context of.
>
>Can you swim?
>
>Mai pen.

So there options for expressing the same thing in Thai, as in all other
languges with subtle differences.

/wai naam mai pen/ expressing "I am unable to swim" or "I don't know how to
swim."

/wai naam mai waai/ expressing "I am not able to swim at the moment" perhaps
because the current is too strong or the person has just eaten a very large
meal or just too tired or weak

/wai naam mai dai/ expressing a physical or mental incapacity that prevents
one from swimming.

I suspect that is why the typical Pattaya posters on this board /phuut thai mai
dai/.

Happy Trails

Johpa

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Dec 16, 2003, 11:01:26 PM12/16/03

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Loafer wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:08:49 +0100, "Michael Christoffersen"
> <pesc...@NOSPAMstofanet.dk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Johpa Deumlaokeng" <joh...@aol.comnet> wrote in message
> >news:20031214122434...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> >> /wai naam mai dai/ expressing a physical or mental incapacity that
> >prevents
> >> one from swimming.
> >>
> >OR stating that swimming is not allowed here.
> >
>
> No, /mai dai/ means inability to do something, not lack of
> permission or right.

Gotta disagree with you Roger. Mai dai can also commonly mean 'no
permission'.....Can I enter Burma without my passport? 'Mai Dai' Can I
swim here?... 'Mai dai' (No permission/right)
Right about the sign, though. Written vs spoken Thai, it seems.
Mai Wai is the one normally used for inability (of a more physical nature)

But, hey, it ain't my language, either :-)

Lawrence

Chris Blunt

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Dec 17, 2003, 5:17:29 AM12/17/03

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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:01:26 +0700, Lawrence <Aj...@loxinfo.co.th>
wrote:

>
>
>Loafer wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 18:08:49 +0100, "Michael Christoffersen"
>> <pesc...@NOSPAMstofanet.dk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Johpa Deumlaokeng" <joh...@aol.comnet> wrote in message
>> >news:20031214122434...@mb-m18.aol.com...
>> >> /wai naam mai dai/ expressing a physical or mental incapacity that
>> >prevents
>> >> one from swimming.
>> >>
>> >OR stating that swimming is not allowed here.
>> >
>>
>> No, /mai dai/ means inability to do something, not lack of
>> permission or right.
>
>Gotta disagree with you Roger. Mai dai can also commonly mean 'no
>permission'.....Can I enter Burma without my passport? 'Mai Dai' Can I
>swim here?... 'Mai dai' (No permission/right)
>Right about the sign, though. Written vs spoken Thai, it seems.
>Mai Wai is the one normally used for inability (of a more physical nature)

Surely this isn't very different from the way the terms are used in
English. Someone speaking might use the words 'you can't swim here',
(meaning swimming is not allowed). A written sign, however, would more
probably use the more correct 'swimming is prohibited here'

Chris

Lawrence

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Dec 17, 2003, 5:47:44 AM12/17/03

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Chris Blunt wrote:

Chris, that's been my sense, too. I've been trying to think of exceptions, but
I haven't come with any clear differences yet. Maybe someone here can come up
with some...

Lawrence

Johpa Deumlaokeng

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Dec 17, 2003, 11:39:58 AM12/17/03

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Lawrence in Message-id: <3FDFD516...@loxinfo.co.th>

>Gotta disagree with you Roger. Mai dai can also commonly mean 'no
>permission'.....Can I enter Burma without my passport? 'Mai Dai' Can I
>swim here?... 'Mai dai' (No permission/right)

No, it only means the generic "not able" without explanation and the above
examples would also need further clarification to mean "no permission" as in

/mai dai (phra waa) pit kot mai/

or with the swimming example

/mai dai (phra waa) khao mai hai wai naam thii nii/.

Happy Trails

Johpa

Lawrence

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Dec 17, 2003, 12:09:21 PM12/17/03

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Johpa Deumlaokeng wrote:

Mai Dai means 'not able'...'Not able' has many reasons- and there are always
reasons behind 'Mai dai'...Permission/right is one of them. That was my point.

Lawrence

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Dec 17, 2003, 12:18:17 PM12/17/03

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Lawrence wrote:

I should have added 'won't/can't/didn't' as other meanings/uses for mai dai...

Lawrence