Is the word "Farang" as offensive as the word "Gook"?
DAVID G KESSEL
In Thailand a "white" visitor is often addressed as a "farang." I asked
several times about what it meant and was told it meant a "foreigner"
then I asked if they called Black people "farang" too? They are not Thai
right? They said "no". How about Koreans, they are foreigners, too. They
said 'no"
Actually it means "caucasian" and or "western"
Pointing fingers at people and screaming "Farang" "Farang" is not very
polite I think. Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand.
How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream "Oriental.
Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
plip
gee.. and i actually thought there were more pressing problems in life.
Some people just have to whine about everything, instead of just
"letting it slide". Get used to it. Look into the mirror and say
"farang" 1,000 times, if that's what it takes..
plip
John Sharman
In article <67i1on$27l2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
> In Thailand a "white" visitor is often addressed as a "farang." I asked
> several times about what it meant and was told it meant a "foreigner"
>
> then I asked if they called Black people "farang" too? They are not Thai
> right? They said "no". How about Koreans, they are foreigners, too. They
> said 'no"
>
> Actually it means "caucasian" and or "western"
"Caucasian" is the more accurate of those alternatives IMHO.
> Pointing fingers at people and screaming "Farang" "Farang" is not very
> polite I think. Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand.
I have been travelling to Thailand for years and am routinely referred
to by the Thais as "farang". It is appropriate and not pejorative under
most circumstances. I have never had the word "screamed" at me. Only
very rarely have I had a Thai finger pointed at me and on those few
occasions it has been neither hostile nor rude.
You, Mr. Kessel, seem to suggest that it has happened to you frequently.
What exactly did you do which produced such a reaction?
> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream "Oriental.
> Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
>
> We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
Take a look at the current thread in this ng entitled "Fuck all Asians
(Part I)" - I'm sure it will have caught your eye - in which you will find
an account of Robert Page (a white American) who who shot and almost
killed Eddy Wu for no reason other than the fact that his victim was
Chinese. Can you cite me an instance of a Thai gratuitously shooting a
person solely because that person was a farang?
--
Regards,
John Sharman
+====================================================================+
| John Sharman Internet: jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk |
| Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1603 452142 |
+====================================================================+
Paul West
Thais frequently refer to Westerners as "farangs" although I imagine they
regard the term as impolite rather than offensive. The origin is
supposedly from the fruit of that name which has a pale skin.
I visited a Thai family in Khon Kaen recently and they used the term but
when their children used it, they corrected them, saying it was impolite!
They also use "You!" or "Hey you!" to attract a Westerner's attention,
learnt from US airmen based in Thailand during the Vietnam war.
Buinsee Pornthongsai
>In Thailand a "white" visitor is often addressed as a "farang." I asked
>several times about what it meant and was told it meant a "foreigner"
>
>then I asked if they called Black people "farang" too? They are not Thai
>right? They said "no". How about Koreans, they are foreigners, too. They
>said 'no"
>
>Actually it means "caucasian" and or "western"
It is a term often loosely applied to: sextourist mentality. Just so
happens that 99% of Western white men in Thailand are mainly for
sextourist mentality, even if they end up shying away from actually
attending such sessions in actual practice. Even Western men who live
in Thailand as businessmen are generally termed farang, since their
main VANTAGE POINT of Thailand usally still overlooks not the stock
ticker, but the sex industry.
On the other hand, an Indian/Pakistani/etc. is usually in Bangkok on
business or to visit relatives without thinking sextourist lines with
each step he walks. And if an African black is in town as seen a
sextourist, he will be termed farang too (American blacks hardly ever
make it to this part of the world). Still, many black men will be in
town strictly on commerce or as diplomat, so they are less often
termed farang than whites.
As a rule, men of cultures non-Western more often than not save it for
when they get back to native soil -- especially in these days when
saved sex is a necessity because of AIDS and other communicable
diseases.
An important aspect of this is that most cultures non-Western have
their OWN versions of sex industry, so it's not as necessary for
non-Western male tourists to frequent Thai establishments. Japan and
Korea are good examples: if these fellows make it to Thailand, they
have more of the Golden Buddha on their mind than Patpong. However,
some men from Korea, Japan, etc. will still attend the sex industry in
Bangkok as a ritualistic gesture of manhood; nevertheless, their
OUTLOOK on Thai society does not center on the sex industry, so they
are not termed farang.
But in the case of Europe, women of the world's oldest profession are
often unattractive such that European man of the West has to more RELY
on outside sex industry, despite the widespread superficial prevalence
in Europe of brothels, strip shows, etc.
In America the situation is SO bad with costumed, ugly ...whores...
and flake Jons that prostitution is thoroughly swept down on by the
authorities, largely by men to relieve the burden on other sensible
men of being put under social pressure to have sex with those
monsters! And the best thing about stripper bars in America is
generally the strong drinks!
Thus, farang can be said to represent anyone whose outlook on Thai
society centers on the sex industry. Mostly -- but by no means
exclusively -- these are Western white males (Western women are
generally equally farang in a preacherly way).
Jeremy Thomas
I lived in Thailand for 2 years, and I never visited any bar or brothel
nor do I intend to in future visits. I know several "farangs" that are
the same. The word has nothing to do with the sex industry in
Thailand. It is just a word that kids yell out when they see you.
People that take offense to it are just way too sensitive. You can
always get a laugh out of people in the Isan by telling them you are a
baksida, not a farang.
Louis Paquet
On Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:10:49 -0800, Jeremy Thomas <nua...@tqos.com>
wrote:
>I lived in Thailand for 2 years, and I never visited any bar or brothel
>nor do I intend to in future visits. I know several "farangs" that are
>the same. The word has nothing to do with the sex industry in
>Thailand. It is just a word that kids yell out when they see you.
>People that take offense to it are just way too sensitive. You can
>always get a laugh out of people in the Isan by telling them you are a
>baksida, not a farang.
>Buinsee Pornthongsai wrote:
>
What's the meaning of "baksida" ?
Daniel Salinero
I don't know where you're from or where you got this info, but after
having lived in Thailand for more than 10 years, I see no truth in
what you say. When I first came from the US, the term "farang"
usually bothered me because in my country you don't mentioned a word
describing someone's ethinicity when you see them on the street unless
you're making a bigoted comment. People from the West are very
sensitive to this. On the otherhand, it's not the case in Thailand.
It is NEVER used pejoratively, with minor exceptions. It's culturally
appropriate. Unfortunately, westerners come to Thailand looking
through their own country's perspectives (no one can help that), and
misunderstand.
It has nothing to do with the sex industry here or any of the other
bigoted comments you made out of ignorance.
Daniel
DAVID G KESSEL
The thai prostitutes would kill for money...poison the guy...
it has happened.. quite a few times...
Nigel Evans
In article <349d82b...@news.skypoint.com>, Buinsee Pornthongsai
<dro...@skypoint.com> writes
>It is a term often loosely applied to: sextourist mentality.
Well, I suppose, every now and then, I am bound to come
into contact with a Thai who is ignorant. The word "farang" is derived
from the Thai word "farangset" which means "French". It has nothing to
do with any type of "sextourist mentality". I am a "farang" because I am
not Thai. It doesn't bother me.
--
Nigel Evans
Johpa
Buinsee Pornthongsai in Message-id: <349d82b...@news.skypoint.com>
>It is a term often loosely applied to: sextourist mentality.
Interesting observation. Several years ago a well known and very repected
resident of Chiang Mai was to be presented an award by Her Majesty the Queen
for his translation of a book . Now the man is pretty fluent in Thai but he
did need to brush up on his royal vocabulary, ratchasap, for his acceptance
speech, which was delivered in fluent Thai including proper royal vocabulary, a
feat most Thais could not do without significant preparation themselves.
At the end of this flawless speech in Thai Her Majesty had but one comment,
"farang phuut thai keng."
Please don't arrest me on lese majeste but every time I think of the story I am
LOL.
>Even Western men who live
>in Thailand as businessmen are generally termed farang, since their
>main VANTAGE POINT of Thailand usally still overlooks not the stock
>ticker, but the sex industry
You must be a relative of Her Majesty.
>In America the situation is SO bad with costumed, ugly ...whores...
>and flake Jons that prostitution is thoroughly swept down on by the
>authorities, largely by men to relieve the burden on other sensible
>men of being put under social pressure to have sex with those
>monsters! And the best thing about stripper bars in America is
>generally the strong drinks!
A post so stupid it is worth requoting in its entirety. Obviously Ms. Buinsee
has some serious insecurities relative to other Thai women and western men. I
for one do find find the Thai women in the bars that cater to the evil "farang"
sex tourist to be very alluring relative to Thai standards. If one wants to
find very attractive hookers than one can always go to Las Vegas, especially in
the summer when the teachers are doing their part-time bit to make summer
money. And Ms. Ignorant, most municipalities in the US prohibit the sale of
alcohol in "strip" joints.
>Thus, farang can be said to represent anyone whose outlook on Thai
>society centers on the sex industry.
So, Her Majesty assumes that the translator who delivers the flawless speech is
solely focued on sex? I am referred to as a farang by most Thais, including my
friends who know I am as basic a family man as you will find in Thailand and
am, as are most of my Thai peers, "khua mia ca taay".
And people, do not look for the origins of the word 'farang' in Thai since the
same word is used in India and throughout Southeast Asia.
Happy Trails
Johpa
TIGER SHARK
In a previous article, ni...@bleddfa.demon.co.uk (Nigel Evans) says:
>In article <349d82b...@news.skypoint.com>, Buinsee Pornthongsai
><dro...@skypoint.com> writes
>
>>It is a term often loosely applied to: sextourist mentality.
>
> Well, I suppose, every now and then, I am bound to come
>into contact with a Thai who is ignorant. The word "farang" is derived
>from the Thai word "farangset" which means "French". It has nothing to
>do with any type of "sextourist mentality". I am a "farang" because I am
>not Thai. It doesn't bother me.
>--
>Nigel Evans
The FAQ has a descriptive detail about the term "Farang."
In short, Farang means Caucasian.
--
Willy
SteveD
> I meant to say that I do NOT find them, the bar girls, very alluring and NOT
> that they were more alluring.
Wait a minute...what bars have you been to? And why the slam on the appearance
of girls who work in bars? Are they uglier than the average Thai female?
Johpa
Johpa in Message-id: <19971222153...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
>I
>for one do find find the Thai women in the bars that cater to the evil
>"farang"
>sex tourist to be very alluring relative to Thai standards.
I meant to say that I do NOT find them, the bar girls, very alluring and NOT
that they were more alluring.
Apologies to all Thai women
Johpa
Chris Rozier
From my experience, I believe the term 'Farang' carries somewhat of a
negative connotation. I, like many of you, stayed in Thailand for
several months. I became good friend with many locals from all walks of
life including prostitutes. It was difficult gaining their trust and
for them not just to see me as a typical farang. After a while I became
such good friends with these people that many eventually only thought
of me as a friend. Occasionally I would do something stupid or typical
of a tourist and I would immediately be berated with "farang".
I don't think 'farang' is as deroguratory as nigger, spic ect., but I do
think it definately carries a negative connotation. Since most white
visitors to Thailand have a similar agenda (sex tourism, not giving a
care about the culture, or bothering to learn more than one or two Thai
words) the term 'farang' tends to incorporate all of this. Once a Thai
doesn't think of you as a 'farang' anymore, you have in many ways gained
their respect.
John Sharman
In article <67o3al$l5n$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
slin...@webtv.net "Chris Rozier" writes:
[..]
> care about the culture, or bothering to learn more than one or two Thai
> words) the term 'farang' tends to incorporate all of this. Once a Thai
> doesn't think of you as a 'farang' anymore, you have in many ways gained
> their respect.
If you are a /fa'rang'/ then the only way a Thai will stop thinking of
you as a /fa'rang'/ is once he has to think of you as a /sop'/.
John Sharman
In article <67o3al$l5n$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
slin...@webtv.net "Chris Rozier" writes:
> From my experience, I believe the term 'Farang' carries somewhat of a
> negative connotation. I, like many of you, stayed in Thailand for
> several months.
My experience is to the contrary. Sure, the Thais from time to time and
with varying degrees of justification do talk about us in negative
terms. But there is nothing inherently negative in the word
/fa'rang'/itself. What other word is there in common usage in the
language which means "caucasian"?
> I became good friend with many locals from all walks of
> life including prostitutes.
The way you can tell that the hookers /duu- thuuk'/ ("despise") their
clients is by the way that the girls refer to them as /man-/ in conversation
between themselves. It's a pronoun properly used for animals and objects
and when used to identify a person it is very low and rude.
> It was difficult gaining their trust and
> for them not just to see me as a typical farang. After a while I became
> such good friends with these people that many eventually only thought
> of me as a friend. Occasionally I would do something stupid or typical
> of a tourist and I would immediately be berated with "farang".
Then I'll bet they called you /fa'rang' ngoo"/ or /fa'rang' baa"/ or
something like that - in either case it was not the word /fa'rang'/
which was pejorative or derogatory.
DSmittle
being a americam with a thai wife i read alot about thailand. the word farang
(which i love to here} is from the word frank. so don't take it the wrong way
unless you wish to. as my wife says IT"S UP TO YOU.
DON
Vincent T. Lynch
slin...@webtv.net (Chris Rozier) wrote:
>From my experience, I believe the term 'Farang' carries somewhat of a
>negative connotation. I, like many of you, stayed in Thailand for
>several months. I became good friend with many locals from all walks of
>life including prostitutes. It was difficult gaining their trust and
>for them not just to see me as a typical farang. After a while I became
>such good friends with these people that many eventually only thought
>of me as a friend. Occasionally I would do something stupid or typical
>of a tourist and I would immediately be berated with "farang".
>I don't think 'farang' is as deroguratory as nigger, spic ect., but I do
>think it definately carries a negative connotation. Since most white
>visitors to Thailand have a similar agenda (sex tourism, not giving a
>care about the culture, or bothering to learn more than one or two Thai
>words) the term 'farang' tends to incorporate all of this. Once a Thai
>doesn't think of you as a 'farang' anymore, you have in many ways gained
>their respect.
I disagree with you. Many of my closest friends in
Thailand...including those who have taken me to their village to meet
their families and friends or invite me to their graduation at
Chulalongkorn...still call me a farang.
It is not the word that is demeaning, but the way in which it is used
can be.
I can say "He is an American" with different tones to make it either a
compliment or an insult or neutral.
TIGER SHARK
Vince is the real farang who knows exactly the real meaning of "farang."
--
Willy
WuthiphunS
Since I was born as a Thai, I've just heard this misinterpretation only
here. Farang=Caucasian, that's all folks.
WS.
Livan Sophoan
I don't think it's from "frank".
Thais call Foreigners "Farang", and French is called "farangcet".
It should come from France "farangcess=Française".
Khmer called "Barang" for "French"only.
E.K.Ko.
On Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:18:09 +0900, hou...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Farang is actually a name of a fruit. Correct me if i am
>wrong.
"manh farang" is thai for potato (but only together with the
classifier)
hou...@hotmail.com
Varodom Toochinda
hou...@hotmail.com wrote:
: Farang is actually a name of a fruit. Correct me if i am
: wrong.
Yes, my favorite. We can find this kind of fruit anywhere on BKK streets. Is
it called "guava" in English? I'm not so sure.
Dew.
hou...@hotmail.com
You're absolutely correct, farang means Guava.
Actually there is a story behind, I forgot.
Vincent T. Lynch
hou...@hotmail.com wrote:
I believe you have a different word. Tones make similar spellings
completely different.
E.K.Ko.
Guava = birdshit = Kee Nok = sloppy/hippie-like short-of-money
intoxicated farang in Thailand. Sometimes one of the mentioned
states of shape is enough to qualify for the description "Kee Nok".
"Kee Nok" is the slang word you didn't want to be called.
When Thais in-between uses this phrase to describe a farang then
you can be sure they don't like him/her.
"Mahn farang"(vegetable western) is the phrase for potatoes.
I've been told that among bargirls they use the word of another fruit
or vegetable when they want to talk about a farang and they don't
want the farang to understand the word "farang" or the farang don't
like the word "farang". Very few bargirls know the proper word
for tourist, alien, Caucasian etc. you name it.
Happy New Year
>hou...@hotmail.com wrote:
>: Farang is actually a name of a fruit. Correct me if i am
>: wrong.
>
WuthiphunS
Farang's still=Caucasian. Khee Nok=Bird shit. When combined together it'd
mean "Bird shit Caucasian", wouldn't it? What about "Farang Vietnam", does it
means Vietnamese Caucasian, huh?
The word Farang itself is neutral but it's gonna be negative
if I add some adjective like: "Farang hia"(sorry, doesn't mean someone ; ),
"Farang nah ngo", "Farang mung kha", "Farang aung mor" , "tum tua pen
Farang(farang wanna be)", "Farang tor lae", etc. It depends wheter you want to
know the meaning from bar girls or others who aren't. You'll surely get
differnt views.
Happy New Mear,
WS.
>danthaiM...@danthai.dk (E.K.Ko.)
>Date: Sun, Dec 28, 1997 15:57 EST
>Message-id: <34a6afa9...@news.inet.tele.dk>
Colin Newell
From article <882895...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman):
> In article <67o3al$l5n$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> slin...@webtv.net "Chris Rozier" writes:
>
>> negative connotation. I, like many of you, stayed in Thailand for
>> several months.
>
> with varying degrees of justification do talk about us in negative
> terms. But there is nothing inherently negative in the word
> /fa'rang'/itself. What other word is there in common usage in the
> language which means "caucasian"?
>
>> life including prostitutes.
>
> clients is by the way that the girls refer to them as /man-/ in conversation
> between themselves. It's a pronoun properly used for animals and objects
> and when used to identify a person it is very low and rude.
>
>> for them not just to see me as a typical farang. After a while I became
>> such good friends with these people that many eventually only thought
>> of me as a friend. Occasionally I would do something stupid or typical
>> of a tourist and I would immediately be berated with "farang".
>
> something like that - in either case it was not the word /fa'rang'/
> which was pejorative or derogatory.
Let us turn this around and wonder how an Asian person in, say, Australia
would react if someone referred to him as a "stupid Asian". Most people
would be extremely angry at such a remark. True, the word Asian by itself
is not derogatory, but they would, correctly in my opinion, find its use
unnecessary in such a phrase as it is tying the concept of stupidity to a
person's race, when the person's race has nothing to do with whether he
is stupid or not! (Actually, rightly or wrongly, one is inviting trouble
with the law for using a remark like this in Australia.)
> --
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
> +====================================================================+
> | John Sharman Internet: jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk |
> | Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1603 452142 |
> +====================================================================+
>
Many times when I have read discussions about use of derogatory terms
it has been argued that the most important factor is not how the
maker of the remark feels, but how the recipient of the remark feels
about it. If this is a reasonable argument then perhaps the word
farang can be and often is derogatory because I have often got sick and
tired of it being used about me while in Thailand! The problem is that
Thais seem to use the word when it is totally unnecessary, such as using
it more or less as a personal pronoun, even when the person addressed
speaks adequate Thai : "Does farang want something more to eat?"
"Does farang want this/that". One example that springs to mind was the
time I was waiting to get served in a cafetaria and my boss was standing
next to me, he said to the waitress "Serve the farang first". How would
Asians in my country feel for example if the same practice was adopted
with respect to them "Serve Asian first" etc... I think they would be
horrified.
I realise there are lots of 'farangs' who couldn't care less about the
word, and there are even more (short term visitors) who never even learn
about the word. As I've stated above that doesn't change my own perception
that it's often used in Thailand in a, shall we say, inconsiderate manner.
p.s. A further example of a word which is only considered derogatory by some
is "pommie". Most Australians don't consider this word the slightest bit
derogatory, so I was surprised the first time I went to England to meet
many English who find it offensive. However when an Australia uses the
term "bloody whinging pom" you can be sure that all _three_ words are meant
to cause offence.
p.p.s. For Thai readers: "Pom/Pommie" = Australian slang for an English-person.
Colin (don't call me Dingo) Newell
Colin Newell
From article <882684...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman):
> In article <67i1on$27l2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
> DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
>
>> In Thailand a "white" visitor is often addressed as a "farang." I asked
>> several times about what it meant and was told it meant a "foreigner"
>>
>> then I asked if they called Black people "farang" too? They are not Thai
>> right? They said "no". How about Koreans, they are foreigners, too. They
>> said 'no"
>>
>> Actually it means "caucasian" and or "western"
>
>
>> Pointing fingers at people and screaming "Farang" "Farang" is not very
>> polite I think. Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand.
>
> I have been travelling to Thailand for years and am routinely referred
> to by the Thais as "farang". It is appropriate and not pejorative under
> most circumstances. I have never had the word "screamed" at me. Only
> very rarely have I had a Thai finger pointed at me and on those few
> occasions it has been neither hostile nor rude.
You must be a truly charming individual :-)
>
> You, Mr. Kessel, seem to suggest that it has happened to you frequently.
Not really, he said it happens many times daily in Thailand. Amongst say
100,000 farang tourists I'm sure it happens many times daily. Might only
happen to him once every 3 weeks!
> What exactly did you do which produced such a reaction?
Some possibilities:
1. he demanded that a Thai taxi driver turn on his meter!
2. he didnt' get out of the way while a young hoon came along the
footpath on his noisy motorbike
3. he bargained too hard for a fake rolex
4. he left only a small tip after some truly vulgar service in
a restaurant
>
>> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream "Oriental.
>> Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
>>
>> We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
>
> Take a look at the current thread in this ng entitled "Fuck all Asians
> (Part I)" - I'm sure it will have caught your eye - in which you will find
> an account of Robert Page (a white American) who who shot and almost
> killed Eddy Wu for no reason other than the fact that his victim was
> Chinese. Can you cite me an instance of a Thai gratuitously shooting a
> person solely because that person was a farang?
I think it's always dangerous to generalise the behaviour of one individual
to nations of millions of people. IN any case, what relevance does this
extreme act have to the question David raised, of whether it is
impolite/acceptable to constantly and unnecessarily address people with
racial terms? None!
> --
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
> +====================================================================+
> | John Sharman Internet: jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk |
> | Tel/Fax: +44 (0)1603 452142 |
> +====================================================================+
>
WuthiphunS
>From: bla...@zoggo.com (The Kings Head Pub)
>Date: Mon, Dec 29, 1997 14:49 EST
>Message-id: <34b2fced...@news.saqnet.co.uk>
>If thais are feeling bitchy ,envious, or in a nasty mood, they will
>still call you farang kee nok, even if you are smartly dressed,
>badmouthing tourists is something of a national passtime.
I don't think so. "Farang khee nok" means somewhat a joke.
In my case, I'll call "farang hia"(lizard).
WS.
M-150.
John Sharman
In article <ELzIH...@mega.com.au>
c...@megadata.mega.com.au "Colin Newell" writes:
> From article <882895...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk
> (John Sharman):
> > In article <67o3al$l5n$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
> > slin...@webtv.net "Chris Rozier" writes:
[..]
> >> I became good friend with many locals from all walks of
> >> life including prostitutes.
> >
> > The way you can tell that the hookers /duu- thuuk'/ ("despise") their
> > clients is by the way that the girls refer to them as /man-/ in conversation
> > between themselves. It's a pronoun properly used for animals and objects
> > and when used to identify a person it is very low and rude.
> >
> >> It was difficult gaining their trust and
> >> for them not just to see me as a typical farang. After a while I became
> >> such good friends with these people that many eventually only thought
> >> of me as a friend. Occasionally I would do something stupid or typical
> >> of a tourist and I would immediately be berated with "farang".
> >
> > Then I'll bet they called you /fa'rang' ngoo"/ or /fa'rang' baa"/ or
> > something like that - in either case it was not the word /fa'rang'/
> > which was pejorative or derogatory.
>
> Let us turn this around and wonder how an Asian person in, say, Australia
> would react if someone referred to him as a "stupid Asian". Most people
> would be extremely angry at such a remark. True, the word Asian by itself
> is not derogatory, but they would, correctly in my opinion, find its use
> unnecessary in such a phrase as it is tying the concept of stupidity to a
> person's race, when the person's race has nothing to do with whether he
> is stupid or not! (Actually, rightly or wrongly, one is inviting trouble
> with the law for using a remark like this in Australia.)
We are perhaps at cross purposes. The argument is not whether Thais are
or are not racist (in my experience they are, more often than not); it's
about whether or not the Thai word /fa'rang'/ is insulting in the way
that the English word "gook" is insulting. Quite clearly it is not. In
English "gook" has the polite alternatives of "asian" or "oriental." In
the Thai language there is no commonly used polite alternative to
/fa'rang'/; there is no need - the word is not inherently insulting. BTW
are you seriously suggesting that you Aussies are not allowed to call us
"whingeing poms" any more?
> Many times when I have read discussions about use of derogatory terms
> it has been argued that the most important factor is not how the
> maker of the remark feels, but how the recipient of the remark feels
> about it. If this is a reasonable argument then perhaps the word
> farang can be and often is derogatory because I have often got sick and
> tired of it being used about me while in Thailand! The problem is that
> Thais seem to use the word when it is totally unnecessary, such as using
> it more or less as a personal pronoun, even when the person addressed
> speaks adequate Thai : "Does farang want something more to eat?"
> "Does farang want this/that". One example that springs to mind was the
> time I was waiting to get served in a cafetaria and my boss was standing
> next to me, he said to the waitress "Serve the farang first". How would
> Asians in my country feel for example if the same practice was adopted
> with respect to them "Serve Asian first" etc... I think they would be
> horrified.
Look, it's part of the language. The fact that you didn't like it
doesn't mean that the speaker was hostile to you. Were you similarly
annoyed because the Thais insist on saying "men three persons" instead
of "three men"? A true translation of your boss' words to the waitress
would be, "please serve my foreign guest first". If you speak reasonable
Thai you should be aware that any attempt at word-for-word translation
into English is doomed to failure.
> I realise there are lots of 'farangs' who couldn't care less about the
> word, and there are even more (short term visitors) who never even learn
> about the word. As I've stated above that doesn't change my own perception
> that it's often used in Thailand in a, shall we say, inconsiderate manner.
>
> p.s. A further example of a word which is only considered derogatory by some
> is "pommie". Most Australians don't consider this word the slightest bit
> derogatory, so I was surprised the first time I went to England to meet
> many English who find it offensive. However when an Australia uses the
> term "bloody whinging pom" you can be sure that all _three_ words are meant
> to cause offence.
That's a coincidence; I raised the same point above before I had read
this latter part of your post. Can you not accept that /fa'rang'/ is
even less offensive (in the mind of a Thai) than is the word "Pommie" in
the mind of an Aussie?
> p.p.s. For Thai readers: "Pom/Pommie" = Australian slang for an English-person.
>
> Colin (don't call me Dingo) Newell
(Why? Afraid of being called /chaat" maa+/) ;-)
John Sharman
In article <ELzJq...@mega.com.au>
c...@megadata.mega.com.au "Colin Newell" writes:
> From article <882684...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk
> (John Sharman):
> > In article <67i1on$27l2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
> > DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
[..]
> >> Pointing fingers at people and screaming "Farang" "Farang" is not very
> >> polite I think. Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand.
> >
> > I have been travelling to Thailand for years and am routinely referred
> > to by the Thais as "farang". It is appropriate and not pejorative under
> > most circumstances. I have never had the word "screamed" at me. Only
> > very rarely have I had a Thai finger pointed at me and on those few
> > occasions it has been neither hostile nor rude.
>
> You must be a truly charming individual :-)
Although that is undoubtedly true, all you have to do is to be
reasonably polite an a bit laid back. And don't mistake normal Thai
lannguge for an insult just because its literal translation would be an
insult in your language.
> > You, Mr. Kessel, seem to suggest that it has happened to you frequently.
>
> Not really, he said it happens many times daily in Thailand. Amongst say
> 100,000 farang tourists I'm sure it happens many times daily. Might only
> happen to him once every 3 weeks!
If he had said "... I suspect that it happens many times daily in
Thailand ..." you might be right. But he didn't say that.
> > What exactly did you do which produced such a reaction?
>
> Some possibilities:
>
> 1. he demanded that a Thai taxi driver turn on his meter!
Good example. I don't "demand". Usually I ask - finish the sentence with
/dai" mai+ khrap^/ - I've never yet been refused. But then I always
agree to pay the tollway charge on top as well. If you go in with
hostility and confrontation, you may expect a similar response.
> 2. he didnt' get out of the way while a young hoon came along the
> footpath on his noisy motorbike
I always get out of the way. Why not? The couple of steps cost me
nothing. But then, I'm not looking for hassle.
> 3. he bargained too hard for a fake rolex
The only time I've witnessed an incident like this was when I saw a US
sailor in Pattaya throw a watch down (hard) on the display stand when he
couldn't get the price he wanted. The Thai vendor did get annoyed (the
words he used were much worse than /fa'rang'/) and he was fully
justified. The Yank was the racist; he would never have behaved in that
fashion if dealing with one of his own race.
> 4. he left only a small tip after some truly vulgar service in
> a restaurant
Unlikely. Substantial tipping in Thailand is the exception rather than
the rule and it is not generally expected. I have left zero tips many
times and never received abuse in consequence.
> >> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream "Oriental.
> >> Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
You see, he *is* talking of individual experience rather than the 1 in
100,000 incident.
> >> We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
> >
> > Take a look at the current thread in this ng entitled "Fuck all Asians
> > (Part I)" - I'm sure it will have caught your eye - in which you will find
> > an account of Robert Page (a white American) who who shot and almost
> > killed Eddy Wu for no reason other than the fact that his victim was
> > Chinese. Can you cite me an instance of a Thai gratuitously shooting a
> > person solely because that person was a farang?
>
> I think it's always dangerous to generalise the behaviour of one individual
> to nations of millions of people. IN any case, what relevance does this
> extreme act have to the question David raised, of whether it is
> impolite/acceptable to constantly and unnecessarily address people with
> racial terms? None!
... except for the point that name-calling is a more acceptable form of
racism than shooting. The truth is that Mr. Kessell's suggestion that
any sensibly behaved farang in Thailand will daily have fingers pointed
at him with screams of "Farang, farang," is an unjustified invention and
is entirely false. Why does he need to make up such ridiculous stories?
What is his motive in slandering the Thais in this way?
WuthiphunS
I'd like to add some point though it might be out of the topic.
>In article <ELzJq...@mega.com.au>
> c...@megadata.mega.com.au "Colin Newell" writes:
>>In article <67i1on$27l2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
>>DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
>> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and >>scream
"Oriental. Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
>>We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
"Oriental" may = "Gook", but "Farang" doesn't contain the same meaning as
"Gook". It also depends whether the majority of people(all walk of life) there
call the same or not. If it's the practice of the American to call every Asian
as "Oriental", I wouldn't give a damn on the word called, but I will with
*their doing*.
You said you'd face a lawsuit, why? How many races are there in the
US? Isn't it just because there're so many races : native, white, african,
hispanic, asian, mars, others, that's why you can't say that? Race
discrimination isn't a major social problem in Thailand as in the US. Money's
the matter. Maybe because almost all of the minority in Thailand are Asian and
got the same apperances, but maybe not with farang or the orphans of the
Vietnam war era cases. However ,if you insist on your word and belief, you'd
take a look at Thai entertainment business and ask yourself why the half
caucasian mixed stars are so popular in Thailand. Why? It'd be opposite in
the US.
>>Take a look at the current thread in this ng entitled "Fuck all >>Asians
(Part I)" - I'm sure it will have caught your eye - in which >>you will find an
account of Robert Page (a white American) >>who who shot and almost killed
Eddy Wu for no reason other >>than the fact that his victim was Chinese. Can
you cite me an >>instance of a Thai gratuitously shooting a person solely
because >>that person was a farang?
Hardly heard of in Thailand, except the case of robbery.
What I've always seen here in daily local news,they discriminately shoot at the
person who aren't belong to their gangs. That's it.
WS.
Colin Newell
From article <883517...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman):
>> > DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
>
>
>> >> Pointing fingers at people and screaming "Farang" "Farang" is not very
>> >> polite I think. Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand.
>> >
>> > I have been travelling to Thailand for years and am routinely referred
>> > to by the Thais as "farang". It is appropriate and not pejorative under
>> > most circumstances. I have never had the word "screamed" at me. Only
>> > very rarely have I had a Thai finger pointed at me and on those few
>> > occasions it has been neither hostile nor rude.
>>
>> You must be a truly charming individual :-)
>
> Although that is undoubtedly true, all you have to do is to be
> reasonably polite an a bit laid back. And don't mistake normal Thai
> lannguge for an insult just because its literal translation would be an
> insult in your language.
>
>> > You, Mr. Kessel, seem to suggest that it has happened to you frequently.
>>
>> Not really, he said it happens many times daily in Thailand. Amongst say
>> 100,000 farang tourists I'm sure it happens many times daily. Might only
>> happen to him once every 3 weeks!
>
> If he had said "... I suspect that it happens many times daily in
> Thailand ..." you might be right. But he didn't say that.
I said that he said "it happens many times daily in Thailand"
His actual words were (please note carefully):
"Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand"
If he had meant "it happens to me many times daily" maybe he would
have written that, but he didn't, so _maybe_ he meant "it's quite a
common occurrence in Thailand, to western visitors in general"
>
>> > What exactly did you do which produced such a reaction?
>>
>> Some possibilities:
>>
>> 1. he demanded that a Thai taxi driver turn on his meter!
>
> Good example. I don't "demand". Usually I ask - finish the sentence with
> /dai" mai+ khrap^/ - I've never yet been refused. But then I always
> agree to pay the tollway charge on top as well. If you go in with
> hostility and confrontation, you may expect a similar response.
Paying the tollway charge is absolutely fair and reasonable, no argument
there. The drivers usually want to use the tollways and expect the passenger
to pay. (The only problem I have found is if the tollway in question offers
no advantage to the normal road but the driver still wants to use it
- minor point.)
I too try to be polite in all dealings with taxi drivers (and
all other service providers in TLOS), but on roughly 5%-10% of the times I
deal with BKK taxi drivers they seem to have a problem getting that meter
going. It is particularly common when I want to go a long distance, and
I have some sympathy with the taxi drivers, as the meter system in operation
in Bangkok is unfair to the drivers for long journeys, so for such distances
I tell them I'll add on 50 baht to the meter, but there are still some
who will not agree to this, wanting to calculate their own pie in the sky
fare.
Now the real question is how do Thais behave in such circumstances? After
much observation I have noted that
1. VERY few taxi drivers try on such tricks with my Thai friends.
2. When they do, my Thai friends don't bother with words like dai mai krup!
3. If you feel that you should have to behave differently because of
your race, that is your problem, but don't argue that others have to follow
your lead.
Aside: It is interesting to note that you do not 'demand' when dealing with
Taxi drivers. May I ask is this a universal rule? The implication is that
to do so would mean that you have broken a cardinal social rule
and thereafter you would be to blame for whatever happens to you. I
regard this is an over-compensation - in your effort to be never at fault
you are inviting a racist response. Try closely observing how Thais react
with each other. Do Thais ever demand things? Of course they do! In
certain situations Thais can be forceful and determined to get their own way.
True, it is polite and probably wise to err on the side of caution when
dealing with people of another culture until you have learnt their ways.
But if, after years spent in that culture, you, because of your race,
are carefully avoiding certain behaviour which those people do engage in,
than that is in my opinion a shame.
>
>> 2. he didnt' get out of the way while a young hoon came along the
>> footpath on his noisy motorbike
>
> I always get out of the way. Why not? The couple of steps cost me
> nothing. But then, I'm not looking for hassle.
So you have accute perception, and eyes on the back of your head? You have
never had to jump out of the way when you realised the offender's front tyre was
about to climb up your back - and never heard the word 'farang' muttered
in disgust when you didn't jump like an olympic athlete out of the way? The
point is that there are many situations where you may act and behave exactly
the way a Thai does, and still have the word 'farang' flung at you as
an insult.
>
>> 3. he bargained too hard for a fake rolex
>
> The only time I've witnessed an incident like this was when I saw a US
> sailor in Pattaya throw a watch down (hard) on the display stand when he
> couldn't get the price he wanted. The Thai vendor did get annoyed (the
> words he used were much worse than /fa'rang'/) and he was fully
but was 'farang' included as part of the diatribe? If so, why?
> justified. The Yank was the racist; he would never have behaved in that
> fashion if dealing with one of his own race.
A mind reader as well, eh?
Anyway, I'm on thin ice arguing about rolexes as I've never bought one.
>
>> 4. he left only a small tip after some truly vulgar service in
>> a restaurant
>
> Unlikely. Substantial tipping in Thailand is the exception rather than
> the rule and it is not generally expected. I have left zero tips many
> times and never received abuse in consequence.
There is some notion in this newsgroup that there is either no or little
tipping in restaurants in Thailand. Amongst my friends and Thai family
10% seems to be the rule. So you have never been scowled at for not leaving
a tip? Perhaps this happens more commonly in the touristy parts of Bangkers,
it has certainly happened to me a few times.
Again, the evidence for your charm and charisma grows.
>
>> >> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream "Oriental.
>> >> Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
>
> You see, he *is* talking of individual experience rather than the 1 in
> 100,000 incident.
I don't see that at all. Perhaps he observed this happening to other people!
>
>> >> We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
>> >
>> > Take a look at the current thread in this ng entitled "Fuck all Asians
>> > (Part I)" - I'm sure it will have caught your eye - in which you will find
>> > an account of Robert Page (a white American) who who shot and almost
>> > killed Eddy Wu for no reason other than the fact that his victim was
>> > Chinese. Can you cite me an instance of a Thai gratuitously shooting a
>> > person solely because that person was a farang?
>>
>> I think it's always dangerous to generalise the behaviour of one individual
>> to nations of millions of people. IN any case, what relevance does this
>> extreme act have to the question David raised, of whether it is
>> impolite/acceptable to constantly and unnecessarily address people with
>> racial terms? None!
>
> .... except for the point that name-calling is a more acceptable form of
> racism than shooting. The truth is that Mr. Kessell's suggestion that
Undoubtedly. But the fact that one racist loon in the U.S. of A (with whom I
have no affiliation) shot a _Chinese_ person simply has no connection with
whether certain terms in a third country directed at people of a certain
apperance are derogatory or not. Are you seriously arguing that seeing
as murder is such a vile crime, a person of a race _related_ to that of
a victim is henceforth absolved of all expectations of acting politely?
That's like arguing that since Japan once invaded Thailand, Thais can
steal property of Japanese tourists.
> any sensibly behaved farang in Thailand will daily have fingers pointed
> at him with screams of "Farang, farang," is an unjustified invention and
> is entirely false. Why does he need to make up such ridiculous stories?
Who is inventing stories, you or him? He never said that!
> What is his motive in slandering the Thais in this way?
What is your motive in exaggerating his comments?
> --
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
Cheers,
Colin Newell
John Sharman
In article <EM4v4...@mega.com.au>
c...@megadata.mega.com.au "Colin Newell" writes:
> From article <883517...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk
> (John Sharman):
> > In article <ELzJq...@mega.com.au>
> > c...@megadata.mega.com.au "Colin Newell" writes:
> >
> >> From article <882684...@norvic.demon.co.uk>, by jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk> >> (John Sharman):
> >> > In article <67i1on$27l2$1...@newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com>
> >> > DKE...@prodigy.net "DAVID G KESSEL" writes:
> >
> > [..]
> >> > You, Mr. Kessel, seem to suggest that it has happened to you frequently.
> >>
> >> Not really, he said it happens many times daily in Thailand. Amongst say
> >> 100,000 farang tourists I'm sure it happens many times daily. Might only
> >> happen to him once every 3 weeks!
> >
> > If he had said "... I suspect that it happens many times daily in
> > Thailand ..." you might be right. But he didn't say that.
>
> I said that he said "it happens many times daily in Thailand"
>
> His actual words were (please note carefully):
> "Yet it happens many times daily in Thailand"
He stated it as fact. That means he *knows*. How can he *know*? Only by
personal experience either as subject or witness. I concede that he
*may* have experienced or witnessed this phenomenon on occasion (though
I *never* have); but "daily"? No way. He's either inventing or
speculating.
> If he had meant "it happens to me many times daily" maybe he would
> have written that, but he didn't, so _maybe_ he meant "it's quite a
> common occurrence in Thailand, to western visitors in general"
>
> >> > What exactly did you do which produced such a reaction?
> >>
> >> Some possibilities:
> >>
> >> 1. he demanded that a Thai taxi driver turn on his meter!
> >
> > Good example. I don't "demand". Usually I ask - finish the sentence with
> > /dai" mai+ khrap^/ - I've never yet been refused. But then I always
> > agree to pay the tollway charge on top as well. If you go in with
> > hostility and confrontation, you may expect a similar response.
>
> Paying the tollway charge is absolutely fair and reasonable, no argument
> there. The drivers usually want to use the tollways and expect the passenger
> to pay. (The only problem I have found is if the tollway in question offers
> no advantage to the normal road but the driver still wants to use it
> - minor point.)
>
> I too try to be polite in all dealings with taxi drivers (and
> all other service providers in TLOS), but on roughly 5%-10% of the times I
> deal with BKK taxi drivers they seem to have a problem getting that meter
> going. It is particularly common when I want to go a long distance, and
I haven't been keeping a precise tally, but I'd say that since meters
became the standard in taxis, I've taken maybe a couple of hundred taxi
rides in BKK and have had to ask the driver to switch on the meter no
more than a half-dozen times, if that. As I've already said, I've
*never* been refused.
> I have some sympathy with the taxi drivers, as the meter system in operation
> in Bangkok is unfair to the drivers for long journeys, so for such distances
> I tell them I'll add on 50 baht to the meter, but there are still some
> who will not agree to this, wanting to calculate their own pie in the sky
> fare.
Oh, I've had taxi drivers refuse my journey many, many times. Almost
always on long trips at busy times. But that's up to them. They're not obliged
to take me anywhere and there's nothing underhand in their refusal. Last
time my wife and I wanted to get back from Yaowaraat to the Nana Hotel
at 4.30 pm we must have been refused at least a dozen times before we
found a taxi driver who would take us. But no problems with the meter.
> Now the real question is how do Thais behave in such circumstances? After
> much observation I have noted that
>
> 1. VERY few taxi drivers try on such tricks with my Thai friends.
> 2. When they do, my Thai friends don't bother with words like dai mai krup!
Then I am perhaps more fortunate in my circle of Thai friends than you
are in yours. What do your friends say instead? How often does it happen? Why
am I getting off so easy when you are obviously having such a hard time?
> 3. If you feel that you should have to behave differently because of
> your race, that is your problem, but don't argue that others have to follow
> your lead.
I don't follow you. I am not deliberately more nor less polite to taxi
drivers in BKK than I am to taxi drivers in the UK. Admittedly, my
knowledge of the language is limited to the extent that I can only speak
in two ways: formal and polite - or Northern village Thai. Obviously I
have to use the former style when dealing with strangers in BKK.
> Aside: It is interesting to note that you do not 'demand' when dealing with
> Taxi drivers. May I ask is this a universal rule? The implication is that
> to do so would mean that you have broken a cardinal social rule
> and thereafter you would be to blame for whatever happens to you. I
I would *never* "demand" unless at least one polite request had first
failed to secure my desired objective. Even then, my "demand" would
probably be along the lines of /thaa" mai" pai- taam- mii-tEE- phom+ kO"
long- thii" nii" dii- kwaa' na^ khrap^/. But it's never (yet) come to
that.
> regard this is an over-compensation - in your effort to be never at fault
> you are inviting a racist response. Try closely observing how Thais react
> with each other. Do Thais ever demand things? Of course they do! In
Believe me, it's no effort. I have more than enough confrontation in my
life in UK. (I still remain polite though - If I lose my cool, I'm
probably losing the argument as well.) I feel more comfortable
(irrespective of location) being friendly and civil rather than
suspicious, hostile and rude. Having said that, I can be firm with the
Thais if I have to. But after eight years of frequent trips to the
Kingdom, I can count on the fingers of my two hands the number of
occasions when that has been necessary (outside of domestic incidents,
of course). Even then, an attitude of stern disapproval coupled with
/jai- yen-/ and a sprinkling of /pra'chot^/ seems to get better results
than any display of temper or boorishness.
> certain situations Thais can be forceful and determined to get their own way.
> True, it is polite and probably wise to err on the side of caution when
> dealing with people of another culture until you have learnt their ways.
> But if, after years spent in that culture, you, because of your race,
> are carefully avoiding certain behaviour which those people do engage in,
> than that is in my opinion a shame.
If I were to live in Thailand for fifty years I would never be, nor
pretend to be, a Thai. I shall always be a foreigner, a farang. But it
is quite true that I prefer to conduct myself in a better way than the
general reputation of farangs might indicate. It works. When I go to the
market in our local town in Chiang Rai, all the traders know me. The
smiles which we exchange are not false. Many of them greet me, engage me
in conversation. At the market in my English home town I will not get a
word, not so much as a nod unless I am actually making a purchase.
That's one small example of my reasons for loving Thailand.
> >> 2. he didnt' get out of the way while a young hoon came along the
> >> footpath on his noisy motorbike
> >
> > I always get out of the way. Why not? The couple of steps cost me
> > nothing. But then, I'm not looking for hassle.
>
> So you have accute perception, and eyes on the back of your head? You have
No, I have ears. You stipulated that the bike was noisy.
> never had to jump out of the way when you realised the offender's front tyre was> about to climb up your back - and never heard the word 'farang' muttered
> in disgust when you didn't jump like an olympic athlete out of the way? The
I am well aware that the Thai standard of driving (not just bikes) is
absolutely *terrible* in comparison with what I can expect at home. I
adjust accordingly. Most of my terrestrial travel in Thailand is by
motorcycle and I have learned to drive *very* defensively. Even as a
pedestrian I am uncommonly careful. I have to be. I'm an amputee and I
*can't* "jump like an olympic athlete" nor even run across the road.
> point is that there are many situations where you may act and behave exactly
> the way a Thai does, and still have the word 'farang' flung at you as
> an insult.
You mean I would be called /fa'rang' baa"/ whereas a Thai would be
called /ai" baa"/? As I've commented previously, that's just a feature
of the language. I take it that you use the word "flung" by way of
hyperbole, just as Mr. Kessell uses "scream".
> >> 3. he bargained too hard for a fake rolex
> >
> > The only time I've witnessed an incident like this was when I saw a US
> > sailor in Pattaya throw a watch down (hard) on the display stand when he
> > couldn't get the price he wanted. The Thai vendor did get annoyed (the
> > words he used were much worse than /fa'rang'/) and he was fully
>
> but was 'farang' included as part of the diatribe? If so, why?
I can't remember. It probably was. /Kuan-tiin-/ and /chib'haai+/
certainly were. Please understand - there simply is no word more appropriate
than /fa'rang'/ for a Thai to use. /Fa'rang'/ is the right word whether it
be in the course of praise or invective.
> > justified. The Yank was the racist; he would never have behaved in that
> > fashion if dealing with one of his own race.
>
> A mind reader as well, eh?
An observer.
> Anyway, I'm on thin ice arguing about rolexes as I've never bought one.
>
> >
> >> 4. he left only a small tip after some truly vulgar service in
> >> a restaurant
> >
> > Unlikely. Substantial tipping in Thailand is the exception rather than
> > the rule and it is not generally expected. I have left zero tips many
> > times and never received abuse in consequence.
>
> There is some notion in this newsgroup that there is either no or little
> tipping in restaurants in Thailand. Amongst my friends and Thai family
> 10% seems to be the rule.
My wife is happy with 10% up to a tip of 30 baht. Beyond that she
becomes disapproving and says that it is excessive. Bear in mind that
the majority of the workers in the area are earning less than 150 baht
per day.
> So you have never been scowled at for not leaving
> a tip? Perhaps this happens more commonly in the touristy parts of Bangkers,
> it has certainly happened to me a few times.
I try to avoid Bangkok insofar as possible, spending the vast majority
of my Thai time in rural Chiang Rai. Maybe two or three times a week I
go and have a meal at my favourite roadside food stall (actually, it's
an open fronted shop) in Mae Chan. They don't get many farangs in there.
The first couple of times I ate there, I tried to leave a 5 baht tip
(this, admittedly was on a meal which only cost 20 baht). The tip was
courteously refused (a smiling shake of the head and a /mai" tOOng"/) so
I don't offer any more. If I left a tip at any of the food stalls in my
wife's village, it would be tantamount to an insult. *Nobody* leaves
tips there. Sure, at the Nana in BKK or at the Rim Chan (hotel) or Kaa-
Long+ (nightclub/restaurant) in Mae Chan I'll leave a 10% tip, but please
don't believe for a minute that this is standard Thai practice at more
humble venues. It isn't. And no, I cannot recall being scowled at for
not leaving a tip.
> Again, the evidence for your charm and charisma grows.
It's called enlightened self-interest.
> >> >> How would you feel if we pointed fingers at you daily and scream
> "Oriental.
> >> >> Oriental!!!" or "Gook, gook.!!!".
> >
> > You see, he *is* talking of individual experience rather than the 1 in
> > 100,000 incident.
>
> I don't see that at all. Perhaps he observed this happening to other people!
Then read it again. "... you daily ..." in context with his other
statement that "While in the US an Asian might be taunted occasionally,
in Thailand a person of another race will probably be taunted DAILY."
[His capitalisation]
"Daily"? I don't believe that and nor, if you're honest, do you. No
mind-reading necessary to reach that obvious conclusion.
> >> >> We would face a race lawsuit in the US if we did that..
> >> >
[..]
> > .... except for the point that name-calling is a more acceptable form of
> > racism than shooting. The truth is that Mr. Kessell's suggestion that
>
> Undoubtedly. But the fact that one racist loon in the U.S. of A (with whom I
> have no affiliation) shot a _Chinese_ person simply has no connection with
> whether certain terms in a third country directed at people of a certain
> apperance are derogatory or not. Are you seriously arguing that seeing
> as murder is such a vile crime, a person of a race _related_ to that of
> a victim is henceforth absolved of all expectations of acting politely?
> That's like arguing that since Japan once invaded Thailand, Thais can
> steal property of Japanese tourists.
>
> > any sensibly behaved farang in Thailand will daily have fingers pointed
> > at him with screams of "Farang, farang," is an unjustified invention and
> > is entirely false. Why does he need to make up such ridiculous stories?
>
> Who is inventing stories, you or him? He never said that!
Please go back and re-read. That is precisely what he suggested. "... at
you daily ..."
> > What is his motive in slandering the Thais in this way?
>
> What is your motive in exaggerating his comments?
There is no exaggeration. The written record (reproduced in part above)
speaks for itself.
Olarn Seriniyom
In article <883713...@norvic.demon.co.uk>,
jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) wrote:
>
>Oh, I've had taxi drivers refuse my journey many, many times. Almost
>always on long trips at busy times. But that's up to them. They're not obliged
>to take me anywhere and there's nothing underhand in their refusal. Last
>time my wife and I wanted to get back from Yaowaraat to the Nana Hotel
>at 4.30 pm we must have been refused at least a dozen times before we
>found a taxi driver who would take us. But no problems with the meter.
>
Just a small point, taxis _are_ actually obliged to take you
to your destination within Bangkok if you hail one and it stops for
you. In theory you could just hop in before stating your destination.
The current set of regulation does require that taxis not refuse to
take passengers. In reality taxis often do refuse fares, like you said,
for long trips at busy times especially. Most would be passengers
either don't realise that they have the right to be taken to their
desired destination, or don't want to make a fuss because it's just
not worth the hassle. If you wish to make something of it, you could
take the taxi's name and licence details, often displayed on the back
of the front seat, or just the licence plate number, and complain to
the local police or the Bkk metro. authority. To my knowledge nobody
has ever done this.
Taxis refusing fares is absolutely not a racial thing.
>> Now the real question is how do Thais behave in such circumstances? After
>> much observation I have noted that
>>
>> 1. VERY few taxi drivers try on such tricks with my Thai friends.
Which particular trick would that be? I guess taxis are less
likely to try funny businesses with Thais because foreign tourists
are less likely to kick up a fuss, and Thais are likely to know their
way around Bangkok better. When I travel to other (Asian) countries
I am often subjected to taxi scams and tricks of various kinds. I know it's to do with greed rather than a racial thing.
>> 2. When they do, my Thai friends don't bother with words like dai mai krup!
Being polite is good, but I'm afraid it will only get you so
far. Taxis don't scam people because the fare is impolite or look
different as such. They scam for money and pick on those who they think they are likely to have more success with, ie tourists.
>> point is that there are many situations where you may act and behave exactly
>> the way a Thai does, and still have the word 'farang' flung at you as
>> an insult.
Look at it another way, Thais often fling much more colourful
insults at other Thais, often to do with the subject of parents and
procreation, or previous incarnations as a dog. If all you get is
"farang #%*!!", rather than a fully descriptive speculation as to your
forbears' genetic and sexual preponderances, perhaps you would do well
to just ignore it.
>> >
>> >> 4. he left only a small tip after some truly vulgar service in
>> >> a restaurant
>> >
>> > Unlikely. Substantial tipping in Thailand is the exception rather than
>> > the rule and it is not generally expected. I have left zero tips many
>> > times and never received abuse in consequence.
It's almost unheard of for waiters/waitresses to complain to
a client about a small tip. Isn't this something that happens only in
America?
>>
>> There is some notion in this newsgroup that there is either no or little
>> tipping in restaurants in Thailand. Amongst my friends and Thai family
>> 10% seems to be the rule.
>
>My wife is happy with 10% up to a tip of 30 baht. Beyond that she
>becomes disapproving and says that it is excessive. Bear in mind that
>the majority of the workers in the area are earning less than 150 baht
>per day.
Up to 30 seems about right. Again the 10-15% rule is pretty
much an American invention isn't it? Even in continental Europe
people don't tip any where near 10%, (not counting service charges
already added to bills).
>
>> So you have never been scowled at for not leaving
>> a tip? Perhaps this happens more commonly in the touristy parts of Bangkers,
>> it has certainly happened to me a few times.
Since most farangs tend to tip, and tip heavily compared to
Thais, I would think some waiters are bound to feel disappointed not
to get one. Hardly surprising.
> I tried to leave a 5 baht tip
>(this, admittedly was on a meal which only cost 20 baht). The tip was
>courteously refused (a smiling shake of the head and a /mai" tOOng"/) so
>I don't offer any more.
Leaving a tip at road side stalls or even at cheap eateries
(noodle shops with stools) is as alien to Thais as demanding to see
the cheese board or the desert trolley, although if you are
particularly happy with a special service provided (like asking
someone to run next door to buy you something the shop/stall
doesn't have- a common practice), then by all means.
The question of crooked taxi drivers and the question of
tipping, as any fairly experienced traveller will know, are neither
unique to Thailand nor is Thailand the worst place in the world
to cope with by a long chalk. Here are some of my personal experiences:
As a 14 yr old taking my granny home from a shopping trip by
taxi, the taxi demanded double fare because "I've got to go back
empty, 'aven't I?". This was in London.
In a Pizzaland in the westend of London, a staff member once
unceremoniously tipped most of the change in to the tip box because
she felt the tip was too small for the shoddy (dis)service rendered.
(You'd never see anything like _that_ in Thailand).
In Florida a friend of mine was pursued several blocks by an
irate waiter because he tipped just short of 10% for shoddy service.
In many countries it is common to be given the run around by
metered taxis. Never heard of that happening in Thailand, although you
would have thought Thai taxis would do it a lot wouldn't you?
In Delhi, just try to get to your prebooked hotel by taxi, and
see how difficult that is! Indian taxi drivers and their managers
try the same scam again and again on me each time I visit India. My
wife did not appreciate being taken to a "tourist office" at 2am in
a poorly lit alley to be informed that our hotel could not be reached
because of roadworks and muggers when there were no problems of the
sort. Ever heard of that happening in Bangkok?
Visiting Spain with a friend from the US, when eating out I
would always not leave a tip except for small change, and my friend
would leave 10-15%, often amounting thousands of pesetas. I could see
that the waiter was wide-eyed with surprise, although he accepted the
tip without a word. Now, in most parts of continental Europe the
service charge is either "included" which means it is included in
the price of each and every dish, or "not included", (non-compris)
which means it is added as a percentage to the bill afterwards. I
tried to tell my friend this, but he just could not stop himself from
tipping, for several days until he saw that nobody else was leaving
tips other than loose change. Just because the Americans have made
tipping into a major guilt thing, doesn't mean that the 10-15% is
the rule for Americans when they are abroad.
Talking about Americans, and this is an observation rather
than a deliberate racial slur, it is highly noticeable that in places
like India, Arab countries, and other less developed countries, you
often see European tourists, ranging from backpackers roughing
it on a shoestring, to elderly couples in the town's best hotels, but
you see very few Americans, and if you do see Americans, almost
invariably they would be part of a tour group.
Could it be that Americans are not as good travellers as
the Europeans (and Australians)? By that I mean Americans are
relatively less likely to be attracted by countries which can not
offer all mod cons, and are less able to cope with the culture shock
than other farang travellers?
Anyway, if so, take heart, because in my opinion, Thais as travellers are
just about the least adventurous, least imaginative, least able to
cope with foreign ways in the world!
rinpoche
Olarn Seriniyom wrote:
> In a Pizzaland in the westend of London....
> In Florida a friend of mine ....
> In Delhi ....
> Visiting Spain....
Very true. Nobody should complain about the behaviour of Thai taxi
drivers. They're not saints, but they're generally okay. I thought I'm
the most long-winded guy in SCT.
> Talking about Americans ....
Yes, I do notice that there are considerably fewer Americans than other
farangs on independent trips, but definitely not for Thailand because
many Thai establishments cater to American tastes. You'll find lots of
independent American travellers in Thailand but not so many in India,
Pakistan and other less developed places which do not cater to their
tastes.
When I was trekking in Pakistan, I said to my British, French and
Italian companions: "Why aren't there any Americans?"
And the British said: "Aren't we lucky that there aren't any Americans?"
However, Asian backpackers other than the Japanese are even harder to
come by.
> Could it be that Americans are not as good travellers as
> the Europeans (and Australians)?
They are often overconfident and insist on doing things their way. I
think Americans are the least favourite customers for travel agencies
after the Israelis.
> Anyway, if so, take heart, because in my opinion, Thais as
> travellers are
> just about the least adventurous, least imaginative, least able to
> cope with foreign ways in the world!
They hardly travel to foreign places to find out more about the culture,
geography and experience life in the first place. Most of them just want
to buy things, take photos and bring them home to show off. A personal
observation.
Johpa
Olarn in Message-id:<2cmr0wJh...@mozart.inet.co.th.spammee.not>
>Talking about Americans, and this is an observation rather
>than a deliberate racial slur, it is highly noticeable that in places
>like India, Arab countries, and other less developed countries, you
>often see European tourists, ranging from backpackers roughing
>it on a shoestring, to elderly couples in the town's best hotels, but
>you see very few Americans,
It is amazing that there are far fewer Americans travelling internationally
than others. When I first travelled to Thailand in 1980 I went 3 months before
I met another American. Today there are more, but still fewer than most other
western nationalities. Most Americans are very provincial. The one good note
is that, contrary to popular belief, the Americans that do travel are held in
relatively high esteem for their behavior amongst the tourist people
(guesthouse owners, etc). One hears very few complaints about ugly Americans.
It is the Isrealis who now occupy the whipping post.
Happy Trails
Johpa
Donna Mattingly
There has been a lot of talk about the Thais referring to Westerners as
"farangs". I was never aware of that expression used in reference to me
while I was in Thailand. I did find it interesting that the Thai men would
rarely speak to me, but no matter where I went, the Thai women would stop
me and tell me I was very beautiful (vay beetiful)! They also frequently
called me "Miss America" and at the Hard Rock Cafe there was a minor bit of
excitement when some of the Thai workers there mistook me for Brooke
Shields! I really don't look much like Ms. Shields (big eyebrows in
common, maybe), and I'm certainly not "Miss America", but I must admit I
enjoyed all the fuss. I felt like a curiosity, but was enamored by the
openess and affection of the Thai women and will always remember what kind
and loving people they were to me.
Paul West <pwh....@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<349D52...@dial.pipex.com>...
> Thais frequently refer to Westerners as "farangs" although I imagine they
> regard the term as impolite rather than offensive. The origin is
> supposedly from the fruit of that name which has a pale skin.
> I visited a Thai family in Khon Kaen recently and they used the term but
> when their children used it, they corrected them, saying it was impolite!
> They also use "You!" or "Hey you!" to attract a Westerner's attention,
> learnt from US airmen based in Thailand during the Vietnam war.
>
Vj (:..x5477..:)
In article <34a409c9...@news.inet.tele.dk>, danthaiM...@danthai.dk (E.K.Ko.) writes:
>
> "manh farang" is thai for potato (but only together with the
> classifier)
The word "farang" in Thai vocab/slang
=====================================
man- fa^rang' --------> potato
mUU- fa^rang' --------> foot
boot' fa^rang' -------> church
maak' fa^rang' -------> chewing gum
nang+ fa^rang' -------> western film
phleeng- fa^rang' ----> foreign (English) songs
aa-haan+ fa^rang' ----> western food
Anything else? Anyone?
Vj :).
John Sharman
nOO' mai^ fa'rang' ---> asparagus
TDestef107
Thai women are some of the most beautiful and decent people on earth. I am
married to one. We have two amazing daughters - Proe and Marakot.
It seems odd that all the scrutiny of the world focuses on a few city blocks in
the capital city Krung Thep (aka Bangkok) and in Pataya. I found it to be as
charming and relaxing or as exciting and adventurous as anywhere on earth
without going to the sex trade! God Bless Thailand from Heaven.
An American Military Officer
Pete Briggs
pla lat fa^rang' ----------> blue cheese
On 6 Jan 98 10:38:22 -0500, vj@ubmail (Vj (:..x5477..:)) wrote:
>In article <34a409c9...@news.inet.tele.dk>, danthaiM...@danthai.dk (E.K.Ko.) writes:
>>
>> "manh farang" is thai for potato (but only together with the
>> classifier)
>
>The word "farang" in Thai vocab/slang
>=====================================
>
>man- fa^rang' --------> potato
>mUU- fa^rang' --------> foot
>boot' fa^rang' -------> church
>maak' fa^rang' -------> chewing gum
>nang+ fa^rang' -------> western film
>phleeng- fa^rang' ----> foreign (English) songs
>aa-haan+ fa^rang' ----> western food
>
>Anything else? Anyone?
>
>Vj :).
James
naw mai fa^rang ----------> asparagus
James
Tchiowa
Donna Mattingly wrote:
>
> There has been a lot of talk about the Thais referring to Westerners as
> "farangs". I was never aware of that expression used in reference to me
> while I was in Thailand. I did find it interesting that the Thai men would
> rarely speak to me, but no matter where I went, the Thai women would stop
> me and tell me I was very beautiful (vay beetiful)!
If someone referred to you as "vay beetiful" you may in fact be
beautiful but you were nowhere near Thailand. "Velly Bootiful" would be
more like it. Actually, "suay mak".
Further, if you never heard the phrase "farang" then you were even
farther from Thailand.
Pon
You might have heard about it. It's really threatening!!!
Better understand it at
Also many interesting things to know at its site:
arik h
Johpa wrote in message <19980104185...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>Olarn in Message-id:<2cmr0wJh...@mozart.inet.co.th.spammee.not>
>
>>Talking about Americans, and this is an observation rather
>>than a deliberate racial slur, it is highly noticeable that in places
>>like India, Arab countries, and other less developed countries, you
>>often see European tourists, ranging from backpackers roughing
>>it on a shoestring, to elderly couples in the town's best hotels, but
>>you see very few Americans,
>
>
>It is amazing that there are far fewer Americans travelling internationally
>than others. When I first travelled to Thailand in 1980 I went 3 months
before
>I met another American. Today there are more, but still fewer than most
other
>western nationalities. Most Americans are very provincial. The one good
note
>is that, contrary to popular belief, the Americans that do travel are held
in
>relatively high esteem for their behavior amongst the tourist people
>(guesthouse owners, etc). One hears very few complaints about ugly
Americans.
>It is the Isrealis who now occupy the whipping post.
>
>Happy Trails
>
>Johpa
>
>
As one of those Israelis who travel thailand , you probably right , small
country
(5 millions) maibe less than quarter million travels abroad and still you
can
noticed them everywhere.
i hope this will change sometime.
Eric
Donna Mattingly
And I maintain the humble opinion that if someone in the throws of
linguistic hair-splitting reveals he considers the word "farang" to be a
phrase, his credibility in interpreting a Thai dialect may be in question.
FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just because I
was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
stretch, don't you think?
BUNPOAT
>Is the word "Farang" as offensive as the word "Gook"?
I don't know the word "Gook", however, I don't think the word Farang is
offensive at all. It's just the way Thai people call the Westerners. I think
the word "Farang" comes from the word "Fa-rang-ses", which means France. In
Thai we call France as "Fa-rang-ses.", China as "chean", and Japan as
"yee-poon", etc. These are the formal language. Therefore, I don't think the
word "fa-rang" is bad although it is not a fomal language. Plus, there is no
racism in Thailand, foreigners are very welcome.
> while I was in Thailand. I did find it interesting that the Thai men would
>>> rarely speak to me, but no matter where I went, the Thai women would stop
>>> me and tell me I was very beautiful (vay beetiful)!
It was the matter of the culture. Thai culture, boys and girls are not
suppose to be very close except they are siblings, or lovers. Even touching is
unacceptable for some people of the opposite sex. But it's ok for the same
sex. So, please don't worry about that Thai men rarely speak to you. There is
nothing wrong, just because of the culture. Or maybe they have limited
English, that's all.
urs widmer
Vj (:..x5477..:) wrote:
> The word "farang" in Thai vocab/slang
> =====================================
>
> man- fa^rang' --------> potato
> mUU- fa^rang' --------> foot
> boot' fa^rang' -------> church
> maak' fa^rang' -------> chewing gum
> nang+ fa^rang' -------> western film
> phleeng- fa^rang' ----> foreign (English) songs
> aa-haan+ fa^rang' ----> western food
>
> Anything else? Anyone?
>
> Vj :).
Here some more (sorry i cannot handle the sct-transcription):
ต้นฝรั่ง [ton(f)farang(l)] --------> guava tree
ตรุษฝรั่ง [trud(l)farang(l)] --------> occidental New Year
ผักชีฝรั่ง [phag(l)chii'farang(l)] --------> parsley
กบฝรั่ง [kob(l)farang(l)] --------> spokeshape
ขนมฝรั่ง [khanom(r)farang(l)] --------> spoge cake
ชาวฝรั่ง [chaawfarang(l)] --------> French people
ฝรั่งอังกฤษ [farang(l)angkrid(l)] --------> Englishman
uw
John Sharman
In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> And I maintain the humble opinion that if someone in the throws of
> linguistic hair-splitting reveals he considers the word "farang" to be a
> phrase, his credibility in interpreting a Thai dialect may be in question.
Perhaps to the same extent as a person who misapprehends the words
"throes" and "dialect".
> FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just because I
> was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> stretch, don't you think?
Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
deaf.
nir...@notme.com
Ma Thai Pai Farang = arrive late, leave on time.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Puangroi Khamriang
John Sharman wrote:
>
> In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
> snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
>
> > FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just because I
> > was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> > stretch, don't you think?
>
> Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
> being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
> deaf.
> --
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
Another reason could be that most Thai people use the word 'farang' for
male and 'maam' for female caucasian. If Donna is a woman, she probably
was called 'maam' most of the time.
I always use the words farang and maam freely myself. I never mean any
offense. Although the use of the word by some Thais might be
questionable sometimes.
On the other hand, the word 'gook',as I personally experienced, was
always used to denigrate. For example, the facial expression, the
bodily gesture, how it was barked out, clearly indicated to me the
offensive intention of the speakers.
I'm sorry if it offended anyone but I think most of the time, Thais
don't intend to be offensive since it's not in their culture to
obviously put down anyone especially if you know them. I didn't mean
that they will never do that but I mean they wouldn't do it blatantly
like that if they want to denigrate you.
Anyway, I think it's better to use your concern on something else like
whether you're getting ripped off than to worry about the meaning of
'farang'
Regards,
Tchiowa
end...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
>
> On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:33:05 +0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Donna Mattingly wrote:
> >>
> >> There has been a lot of talk about the Thais referring to Westerners as
> >> while I was in Thailand. I did find it interesting that the Thai men would
> >> rarely speak to me, but no matter where I went, the Thai women would stop
> >> me and tell me I was very beautiful (vay beetiful)!
> >
> >beautiful but you were nowhere near Thailand. "Velly Bootiful" would be
> >more like it. Actually, "suay mak".
>
No, the Thai seem to have no problem with "v" although it doesn't come
out as hard as the English "v". Chavalit. Sukhumvit.
Olarn Seriniyom
In article <884108...@norvic.demon.co.uk>,
jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) wrote:
>In article <1998Jan6.103822@ubmail> vj@ubmail "Vj (:..x5477..:" writes:
>
.>> > "manh farang" is thai for potato (but only together with the
.>> > classifier)
.>>
.>> The word "farang" in Thai vocab/slang
.>> =====================================
.>>
.>> man- fa^rang' --------> potato
.>> mUU- fa^rang' --------> foot
.>> boot' fa^rang' -------> church
.>> maak' fa^rang' -------> chewing gum
.>> nang+ fa^rang' -------> western film
.>> phleeng- fa^rang' ----> foreign (English) songs
.>> aa-haan+ fa^rang' ----> western food
.>>
.>> Anything else? Anyone?
.>
.> nOO' mai^ fa'rang' ---> asparagus
.>
.>John Sharman
khanom farang----> a kind of cake, like the French Madeleines
pasa farang ---> western language, usually English.
Cha farang ---> English-style tea
Talok bab farang ---> unfunny jokes! :-)
farang rum tao ---> football
Olarn
BUNPOAT
>Another reason could be that most Thai people use the word 'farang' for<BR>
>male and 'maam' for female caucasian. If Donna is a woman, she probably<BR>
>was called 'maam' most of the time.<BR>
><BR>
>On the other hand, the word 'gook',as I personally experienced, was<BR>
>always used to denigrate. For example, the facial expression, the<BR>
>bodily gesture, how it was barked out, clearly indicated to me the<BR>
>offensive intention of the
>speakers.<BR>
><BR>
>I'm sorry if it offended anyone but I think most of the time, Thais<BR>
>don't intend to be offensive since it's not in their culture to<BR>
>obviously put down anyone especially if you know them. I didn't mean<BR>
>that they will never do that but I mean they wouldn't do it
>blatantly<BR>
>like that if they want to denigrate you.<BR>
><BR>
>Anyway, I think it's better to use your concern on something else like<BR>
>whether you're getting ripped off than to worry about the meaning of<BR>
>'farang'<BR>
Yes, you're definitely right.
I'm Thai, and I admit that you know a lot about Thailand and Thai culture.
Tchiowa
Donna Mattingly wrote:
>
> And I maintain the humble opinion that if someone in the throws of
> linguistic hair-splitting reveals he considers the word "farang" to be a
> phrase, his credibility in interpreting a Thai dialect may be in question.
>
> was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> stretch, don't you think?
No, but putting everything together that you said your post sounds like
a total phony.
another example: Miss America. When the Thai see a farang their initial
assumption is German or Australian, not American. The only way they
would start referring to you as Miss America is if you told them to.
Vincent T. Lynch
Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com> wrote:
I would disagree with this. In ten summers in Thailand and a number
of Thai friends here in the states, never have I met a Thai person who
could pronounce Vincent or Vince...it's always Wincent or Wince.
There has been one exception, but that person has lived in the states
a long time. One of my friends in Thailand finally gave up, deciding
to give me a Thai nickname -- moo noi (and yes, I know what that
means, and it is a bit appropriate).
Tchiowa
The consonant that produces the sound is waw wan and is pronounced
usually as a w. However, in certain cases it is clearly pronounced as a
v. Again, I point out Chavalit, the former PM. Never heard anyone
pronounce it as Chawalit. Same with Thanon Sukhumvit, never heard it
pronounced as Sukhmuwit. My wife is Thai and I've never heard her
pronounce a v as a w.
Donna Mattingly
My dear, dear Tchiowa...if you only knew...
Had I a choice in the matter, I would have preferred "Miss Universe" : )
Tchiowa
Donna Mattingly wrote:
>
> My dear, dear Tchiowa...if you only knew...
> Had I a choice in the matter, I would have preferred "Miss Universe" : )
A little cosmetic surgery might solve that for you. OK, OK. A LOT of
cosmetic surgery.
John Sharman
In article <34B7CC...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
> Vincent T. Lynch wrote:
> >
> > Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com> wrote:
> >
> > >end...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:33:05 +0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Donna Mattingly wrote:
[..]
> > >> >If someone referred to you as "vay beetiful" you may in fact be
> > >> >beautiful but you were nowhere near Thailand. "Velly Bootiful" would be
> > >> >more like it. Actually, "suay mak".
> > >>
> > >> Shouldn't that be 'welly bootiful' ? :-)
[..]
> The consonant that produces the sound is waw wan and is pronounced
> usually as a w. However, in certain cases it is clearly pronounced as a
> v. Again, I point out Chavalit, the former PM. Never heard anyone
> pronounce it as Chawalit. Same with Thanon Sukhumvit, never heard it
> pronounced as Sukhmuwit.
Are you serious? The thai language has no "v" sound. The nearest it gets
is /fOO/. /WOO- wAAn+/ is always pronounced as a "w" in any Thai word
(except when it's used as a vowel). I've never heard a Thai pronounce
"Sukhumwit" any other way - the use of a "v" sound in that word is strictly
limited to farangs or Thais speaking to farangs.
> My wife is Thai and I've never heard her
> pronounce a v as a w.
When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
and wrong.
Vincent T. Lynch
jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) wrote:
>[..]
>[..]
>John Sharman
You're absolutely correct here, John. I have always heard it
pronounced Sukumwit and Chawalit.
Farongaepa
Farang eats farang and manh farang. This sentense means Farang eats guava and
potato.
Donna Mattingly
Puangroi Khamriang <pkham...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<34B6B4...@hotmail.com>...
> John Sharman wrote:
> >
> > In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
> > snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> <snipped>
> >
> > > FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just
because I
> > > was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> > > stretch, don't you think?
> >
> > Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
> > being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
> > deaf.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Sharman
Dear John,
Good guess! I'm not deaf, but apparently am lacking in good communication
skills since everyone seems to have interpreted my statement to imply that
I had never heard the word. However, all I said was that I was never aware
of the term being used IN REFERENCE TO ME. I did hear it often, though,
used in reference to my former husband and other westerners who lived at
Eastin Lakeside Hotel Apartments. Some of the Thai waitresses there also
teasingly called my husband "Gay Lamook" (I'm unsure of the spelling, but I
think it meant "old man"). So many of the postings I've read relate the
negative treatment received by westerners in Thailand. My intent in
writing my original message was simply to offer a different perspective. I
guess the bottom line is if you treat people with respect and love they
will respond to you in the same manner, no matter where you are.>
Sincerely,
Donna
Benja Chanasit
>>Are you serious? The thai language has no "v" sound. The nearest it gets
>>is /fOO/. /WOO- wAAn+/ is always pronounced as a "w" in any Thai word
Ring, don't you ?
>>When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
>>her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
>>could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
>>and wrong.
I have always told Baarungs ong-klayh that ÇÍ sound in Thai must come out
of their 'lib and teeth' together. It's a special letter same as È, É, Ê (sh, sÚ, s)
cannot be treated as the same 'sOO'. No one in sct. listens to me !
Faw Faang (straw) must be coming out of Lib only and it should
pronounced as voiceless aspirated.
>
>You're absolutely correct here, John. I have always heard it
>pronounced Sukumwit and Chawalit.
Is it too funny to see the writting of greeting 'vhatdii' ËÇÑ´´Õ word ?
Enjoy my Khmer !
benja
John Sharman
In article <34B6B4...@hotmail.com>
pkham...@hotmail.com "Puangroi Khamriang" writes:
> John Sharman wrote:
> >
> > In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
> > snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> <snipped>
> >
> > > FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just because I
> > > was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> > > stretch, don't you think?
> >
> > Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
> > being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
> > deaf.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Sharman
>
> Dear All,
>
> Another reason could be that most Thai people use the word 'farang' for
> male and 'maam' for female caucasian. If Donna is a woman, she probably
> was called 'maam' most of the time.
Unless she was called /maa+dam-/ ;-)
John Sharman
In article <34b89a3d...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au>
be...@tkint.com "Benja Chanasit" writes:
> >>Are you serious? The thai language has no "v" sound. The nearest it gets
> >>is /fOO/. /WOO- wAAn+/ is always pronounced as a "w" in any Thai word
> In my little brian about your sct godly script, you mean ÇÍ áËǹ wedding
> Ring, don't you ?
>
> >>When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
> >>her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
> >>could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
> >>and wrong.
> I have always told Baarungs ong-klayh that ÇÍ sound in Thai must come out
> of their 'lib and teeth' together.
Then you've been telling them wrong. wOO- ("w") is lips only. fOO ("f") is
lips and teeth.
> It's a special letter same as È, É, Ê (sh,
> sÚ, s) cannot be treated as the same 'sOO'.
What on earth are you talking about? Those three *are all* called /sOO+/
> No one in sct. listens to me !
I wonder why!
> Faw Faang (straw) must be coming out of Lib only and it should
> pronounced as voiceless aspirated.
Nonsense. It's lips and teeth.
Tchiowa
John Sharman wrote:
>
> In article <34B7CC...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
>
> > Vincent T. Lynch wrote:
> > >
> > > Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >end...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:33:05 +0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >Donna Mattingly wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> > > >> >If someone referred to you as "vay beetiful" you may in fact be
> > > >> >beautiful but you were nowhere near Thailand. "Velly Bootiful" would be
> > > >> >more like it. Actually, "suay mak".
> > > >>
> > > >> Shouldn't that be 'welly bootiful' ? :-)
>
> [..]
>
> > The consonant that produces the sound is waw wan and is pronounced
> > usually as a w. However, in certain cases it is clearly pronounced as a
> > v. Again, I point out Chavalit, the former PM. Never heard anyone
> > pronounce it as Chawalit. Same with Thanon Sukhumvit, never heard it
> > pronounced as Sukhmuwit.
>
> is /fOO/. /WOO- wAAn+/ is always pronounced as a "w" in any Thai word
> "Sukhumwit" any other way - the use of a "v" sound in that word is strictly
> limited to farangs or Thais speaking to farangs.
>
> > My wife is Thai and I've never heard her
> > pronounce a v as a w.
>
> her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
> could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
> and wrong.
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
> ==================================================================+
foo???
Thais learn English in school. The alphabet, basic pronunciation and
simple grammar are taught at about age 11 and 12. I've never met a Thai
who couldn't pronounce v. Many turn r to l because of the short, rolled
nature of their r.
You and I have met different Thais. I've never heard Chawalit.
Tchiowa
John Sharman wrote:
>
> In article <34B6B4...@hotmail.com>
> pkham...@hotmail.com "Puangroi Khamriang" writes:
>
> > >
> > > In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
> > > snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> > <snipped>
> > >
> > > > FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just because I
> > > > was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> > > > stretch, don't you think?
> > >
> > > Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
> > > being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
> > > deaf.
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > John Sharman
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > Another reason could be that most Thai people use the word 'farang' for
> > male and 'maam' for female caucasian. If Donna is a woman, she probably
> > was called 'maam' most of the time.
>
> Unless she was called /maa+dam-/ ;-)
Actually, I hear this much more than ma'am.
,
John Sharman
In article <01bd1e64$b37082e0$8e658ccf@oemcomputer>
snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> Puangroi Khamriang <pkham...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
> <34B6B4...@hotmail.com>...
> > John Sharman wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <01bd1cc0$1748fdc0$82658ccf@oemcomputer>
> > > snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
> > <snipped>
> > >
> > > > FURTHER, concluding I never heard the word while in Thailand just
> because I
> > > > was never aware of the term being used in reference to me is quite a
> > > > stretch, don't you think?
> > >
> > > Well, it was a pretty surprising statement. If you were never aware of
> > > being referred to as /fa'rang'/ the obvious conclusion is that you are
> > > deaf.
>
> Dear John,
>
> Good guess! I'm not deaf, but apparently am lacking in good
> communication
> skills since everyone seems to have interpreted my statement to imply that
> I had never heard the word. However, all I said was that I was never aware
> of the term being used IN REFERENCE TO ME.
It's quite possible that nobody *addressed* you as /fa'rang'/ but I can
assure you you that you were *referred to* as /fa'rang'/ by the Thais
talking amongst themselves. It is truly amazing that you failed to hear
them.
> I did hear it often, though,
> used in reference to my former husband and other westerners who lived at
> Eastin Lakeside Hotel Apartments. Some of the Thai waitresses there also
> teasingly called my husband "Gay Lamook" (I'm unsure of the spelling, but I
> think it meant "old man").
Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that at first glance it appears that
they were describing him as "old and obscene". What did he do to earn
that reputation? ;-)
> So many of the postings I've read relate the
> negative treatment received by westerners in Thailand. My intent in
> writing my original message was simply to offer a different perspective. I
> guess the bottom line is if you treat people with respect and love they
> will respond to you in the same manner, no matter where you are.>
A little optimistic, perhaps. But I'd go along with you so far as to say
that I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove
me wrong.
--
Regards,
John Sharman
ToM
"meer farang" <======== foreign wife
"pua farang" <========= foreign husband
pbr...@dmv.com (Pete Briggs) wrote:
>pla lat fa^rang' ----------> blue cheese
>On 6 Jan 98 10:38:22 -0500, vj@ubmail (Vj (:..x5477..:)) wrote:
>>In article <34a409c9...@news.inet.tele.dk>, danthaiM...@danthai.dk (E.K.Ko.) writes:
>>>
>>> "manh farang" is thai for potato (but only together with the
>>> classifier)
>>
>>The word "farang" in Thai vocab/slang
>>=====================================
>>
>>man- fa^rang' --------> potato
>>mUU- fa^rang' --------> foot
>>boot' fa^rang' -------> church
>>maak' fa^rang' -------> chewing gum
>>nang+ fa^rang' -------> western film
>>phleeng- fa^rang' ----> foreign (English) songs
>>aa-haan+ fa^rang' ----> western food
>>
Tchiowa
Vincent T. Lynch wrote:
>
> Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com> wrote:
>
> >end...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 17:33:05 +0700, Tchiowa <tchi...@HoTMaiL.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Donna Mattingly wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "farangs". I was never aware of that expression used in reference to me
> >> >> while I was in Thailand. I did find it interesting that the Thai men would
> >> >> rarely speak to me, but no matter where I went, the Thai women would stop
> >> >> me and tell me I was very beautiful (vay beetiful)!
> >> >
> >> >beautiful but you were nowhere near Thailand. "Velly Bootiful" would be
> >> >more like it. Actually, "suay mak".
> >>
> >> Shouldn't that be 'welly bootiful' ? :-)
>
> >out as hard as the English "v". Chavalit. Sukhumvit.
>
> I would disagree with this. In ten summers in Thailand and a number
> of Thai friends here in the states, never have I met a Thai person who
> could pronounce Vincent or Vince...it's always Wincent or Wince.
> There has been one exception, but that person has lived in the states
> a long time. One of my friends in Thailand finally gave up, deciding
> to give me a Thai nickname -- moo noi (and yes, I know what that
> means, and it is a bit appropriate).
First letter of the word. Many Thai consonants are pronounced diferently
depending on their position in the word and the vowel that they
accompany. Wincent? Sounds plausible. But if your name was Cinvent I
don't think you'd hear it as Cinwent.
Peter Srisavasdi
The word "Farang" used by Thais strictly refers to a Caucasian male,
with white skins and white complexion. The Thais also call Afro-Americans
and foreigners with dark skins as "Farang Dum" which differentiates them
from the "Farang."
Unfortunately, strong evidence of racism is indelible in our Thai language.
Whether the word "Farang" is meant to be derogatory or not, it depends
on the tonality used by the Thais and the noun in apposition that
folows the word "Farang." For example, if a Thai calls a white foreigner
as "Farang Tar Nham Khao" or "Farang Khi Nok," then it is emphatically
derogatory and insulting.
Likewise, in America, Thais often encounter Americanisms such as "Gook"
and "Chink" which again depicts Thais as slit-eyed Orientals as
different from the other Americans.
Peter
--
1
John Sharman
In article <34B8C2...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
[..]
> > When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
> > her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
> > could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
> > and wrong.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > John Sharman
> > ==================================================================+
>
> foo???
No, /fOO/. In the transcription scheme which is set out in the SCT FAQ,
the consonant/vowel which the Thais call "aw aang" is represented by /O/
if short, /OO/ if long.
> Thais learn English in school. The alphabet, basic pronunciation and
> simple grammar are taught at about age 11 and 12. I've never met a Thai
> who couldn't pronounce v.
Sure, they can pronounce "v" if they've been taught, but that does not
alter the fact that there is no "v" sound in the Thai language.
Tchiowa
John Sharman wrote:
>
> In article <34B8C2...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
>
> [..]
>
> > > When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
> > > her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
> > > could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
> > > and wrong.
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > John Sharman
> > > ==================================================================+
> >
> > foo???
>
> No, /fOO/. In the transcription scheme which is set out in the SCT FAQ,
> the consonant/vowel which the Thais call "aw aang" is represented by /O/
> if short, /OO/ if long.
>
> > Thais learn English in school. The alphabet, basic pronunciation and
> > simple grammar are taught at about age 11 and 12. I've never met a Thai
> > who couldn't pronounce v.
>
> Sure, they can pronounce "v" if they've been taught, but that does not
> alter the fact that there is no "v" sound in the Thai language.
First a couple of comments then a question. If they are taught to speak
the v sound in school, why are you saying that you have such a hard time
teaching your wife?
Second, someone posted a comment that the only time the Thai use the v
sound is when they're talking to an English speaker. Wasn't that the
exact scenario that brought up this topic?
Now the question. I've violated my own rules when discussing this issue.
Normally the correct thing to do is to make sure that you understand the
other person's position accurately before you argue a point. Apparently
I failed to do that. Let me try again to understand what you're saying.
When I stay in Bangkok I stay in a hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 8. I've seen
dozens of road signs on Sukhumvit. They all say "Sukhumvit". Also, there
are freeway signs that say the same.
Now my understanding is that some years ago the Thai government decided
to create an official transliteration in order to create signs that
non-Thai could understand (in a gesture of understanding that few people
outside of Thailand understand their alphabet). These signs that say
"Sukhumvit" use that official transliteration. Therefore, the letter v
is part of that transliteration. That much is obvious.
So, if I understand your position correctly, that there is no v sound in
the Thai language, then I have to assume that this group got together to
create a transliteraion and then decided that even though there is no v
sound in the language and that Thai people cannot pronounce v unless
they've been taught to pronounce it, that nonetheless they'd stick a v
into the tranliteration anyway. Why was that? Practical joke?
When my wife talks to me she pronounces Sukhumvit with a v. Of course,
that's a Thai talking to an American. However, when we visit Thailand
(which we do several times a year) and she calls a friend or a member of
her family to tell them where she is I can distinctly hear her on the
phone saying "Sukhumvit" as opposed to "Sukhumwit". Also, I have heard
her express her opinion on the government that floated the baht by using
a well known english adjective followed by the name "Chavalit", not
"Chawalit". She also from the time I met her never had any problem with
pronouncing v when speaking English. R, yes, but not v. Very became
velly, not welly.
I wonder why that is since there is no v sound in the Thai language and
the Thai have problems pronouncing it.
BTW, what part of Thailand is your wife from. Mine is from Chaiyapum.
Possible it is a regional dialect thing.
> --
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
BUNPOAT
>When I stay in Bangkok I stay in a hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 8. I've seen<BR>
>dozens of road signs on Sukhumvit. They all say "Sukhumvit". Also, there<BR>
>are freeway signs that say the same.<BR>
><BR>
>Now my understanding is that some years ago the Thai government
>decided<BR>
>to create an official transliteration in order to create signs that<BR>
>non-Thai could understand (in a gesture of understanding that few people<BR>
>outside of Thailand understand their alphabet). These signs that say<BR>
>"Sukhumvit" use that official transliteration. Therefore, the
>letter v<BR>
>is part of that transliteration. That much is obvious.<BR>
><BR>
>So, if I understand your position correctly, that there is no v sound in<BR>
>the Thai language, then I have to assume that this group got together to<BR>
>create a transliteraion and then
>decided that even though there is no v<BR>
>sound in the language and that Thai people cannot pronounce v unless<BR>
>they've been taught to pronounce it, that nonetheless they'd stick a v<BR>
>into the tranliteration anyway. Why was that? Practical joke?<BR>
OK, I'm Thai. I've been reading this messages about "v" sound many times. Let
me explain. There is no "v" sound in Thai language. We have only "f" or "w"
sounds. "v" sound is in between these two sounds. However, we can pronouce
"v" sound if we are taught.
I don't know why they use "Sukhumvit" instead of "Sukhumwit" and "Chavalit"
instead of "Chawalit" inspite of the fact that they are pronouce (in Thai and
by Thais) "Sukhumwit" and "Chawalit." No Thai people pronouce "Sukhumvit" or
"Chavalit", except foreigners who pronouce "v" sound in both words, which is
not correct.
Probably the person who create the sign "Sukhumvit" didn't know the difference
between "v" and"w" sounds because they also pronouce "v" (in Eng.) as "wee", so
they thought it was the same, and they can use either one in representing "w"
sound.
Tchiowa
BUNPOAT wrote:
> OK, I'm Thai. I've been reading this messages about "v" sound many times. Let
> me explain. There is no "v" sound in Thai language. We have only "f" or "w"
> sounds. "v" sound is in between these two sounds. However, we can pronouce
> "v" sound if we are taught.
> I don't know why they use "Sukhumvit" instead of "Sukhumwit" and "Chavalit"
> instead of "Chawalit" inspite of the fact that they are pronouce (in Thai and
> by Thais) "Sukhumwit" and "Chawalit." No Thai people pronouce "Sukhumvit" or
> "Chavalit", except foreigners who pronouce "v" sound in both words, which is
> not correct.
> Probably the person who create the sign "Sukhumvit" didn't know the difference
> between "v" and"w" sounds because they also pronouce "v" (in Eng.) as "wee", so
> they thought it was the same, and they can use either one in representing "w"
> sound.
I'll bow to your expertise as a Thai. The signs derive from the official
government transliteration. Although that transliteration scheme has
been widely criticized. My wife, who is Thai, pronounces with a v and
says she's never heard it otherwise. Maybe it's the same kind of thing
as the difference between English as spoken in various areas of the US.
Anyway, this thread isn't accomplishing anything so I'll accept what you
say.
Donna Mattingly
John Sharman <jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<884524...@norvic.demon.co.uk>...
> In article <01bd1e64$b37082e0$8e658ccf@oemcomputer>
> snow...@kih.net "Donna Mattingly" writes:
>
>
> > I did hear it often,
though,
> > used in reference to my former husband and other westerners who lived
at
> > Eastin Lakeside Hotel Apartments. Some of the Thai waitresses there
also
> > teasingly called my husband "Gay Lamook" (I'm unsure of the spelling,
but I
> > think it meant "old man").
>
> Well, I'm sorry to have to tell you that at first glance it appears that
> they were describing him as "old and obscene". What did he do to earn
> that reputation? ;-)
PLENTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : O
It wasn't funny at the time, but I have to laugh now...he used to tell me
all about the escapades of his "friend" during his visits to Patpong, etc.
As it turns out, he was actually telling me about all the things HE did!
He was like a kid in a candy store in Bangkok and so excited about it, he
had to tell me, even if under the guise of relating his "friend's"
adventures! : )
John Sharman
In article <34B99D...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
> John Sharman wrote:
> >
> > In article <34B8C2...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
> >
> > [..]
> >
> > > > When I am teaching my (Thai) wife to speak English, I have to explain to
> > > > her that "v" is a farang sound more or less like /fOO/. There's no way I
> > > > could tell her it bears any relation to /wOO/ ; it would be confusing
> > > > and wrong.
> >
> > > foo???
> >
> > No, /fOO/. In the transcription scheme which is set out in the SCT FAQ,
> > the consonant/vowel which the Thais call "aw aang" is represented by /O/
> > if short, /OO/ if long.
> >
> > > Thais learn English in school. The alphabet, basic pronunciation and
> > > simple grammar are taught at about age 11 and 12. I've never met a Thai
> > > who couldn't pronounce v.
> >
> > Sure, they can pronounce "v" if they've been taught, but that does not
> > alter the fact that there is no "v" sound in the Thai language.
>
> First a couple of comments then a question. If they are taught to speak
> the v sound in school, why are you saying that you have such a hard time
> teaching your wife?
I didn't say or suggest that I had a hard time teaching her, merely that
I told her that our "v" sound is close (but not identical) to the sound
of the Thai consonant /fOO/. My wife left school at age 12. I gather
that during the last couple of years prior to that her school attendance
was patchy owing to the need for her to /chuaay" phOO" mAA" tham- naa-/.
Nevertheless she was taught some basic English. However, she was taught
that the name of the consonant "v" was /wii-/ which is in itself
confusing. She certainly used to say "welly" for "very".
> Second, someone posted a comment that the only time the Thai use the v
> sound is when they're talking to an English speaker. Wasn't that the
> exact scenario that brought up this topic?
My experience is that educated Thais can correctly use the "v" sound in
English, because they've been taught. Similarly, uneducated Thais who
have spent time abroad or with farangs pick up the correct sound. My
point is that there are no words in the Thai language (other than
foreign "imports") which are correctly pronounced to include our "v"
sound. Even then the "w" creeps in. "Ovaltine" is pronounced
/oo-wan-thiin-/ by all the kids in my experience.
> Now the question. I've violated my own rules when discussing this issue.
> Normally the correct thing to do is to make sure that you understand the
> other person's position accurately before you argue a point. Apparently
> I failed to do that. Let me try again to understand what you're saying.
>
> When I stay in Bangkok I stay in a hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 8. I've seen
> dozens of road signs on Sukhumvit. They all say "Sukhumvit". Also, there
> are freeway signs that say the same.
Although I've seen these same signs hundreds of times, I cannot remember
the romanised spelling. I always read the Thai characters and, believe
me, according to the Thai characters the final syllable is "wit".
> Now my understanding is that some years ago the Thai government decided
> to create an official transliteration in order to create signs that
> non-Thai could understand (in a gesture of understanding that few people
> outside of Thailand understand their alphabet). These signs that say
> "Sukhumvit" use that official transliteration. Therefore, the letter v
> is part of that transliteration. That much is obvious.
Sadly, that transcription/transliteration system is as much a hindrance
as a help from the point of view of a farang who wishes to pronounce
place names as a Thai would pronounce them. The system ignores tones
completely and fails to acknowledge the range of Thai vowels. No
distinction is made between long and short vowel pronunciations nor are
the soft-aspirated consonants distinguished from their hard-explosive
counterparts. If they felt it necessary to put a "v" in the system, then
I'm at a loss to know why.
> So, if I understand your position correctly, that there is no v sound in
> the Thai language, then I have to assume that this group got together to
> create a transliteraion and then decided that even though there is no v
> sound in the language and that Thai people cannot pronounce v unless
> they've been taught to pronounce it, that nonetheless they'd stick a v
> into the tranliteration anyway. Why was that? Practical joke?
That seems to be as good an explanation as any. One interesting point:
the system was described as a "romanisation". The Romans did not have a
"w" in their alphabet, only a "v" which (it is thought) was pronounced
as a "w".
> When my wife talks to me she pronounces Sukhumvit with a v. Of course,
> that's a Thai talking to an American. However, when we visit Thailand
> (which we do several times a year) and she calls a friend or a member of
> her family to tell them where she is I can distinctly hear her on the
> phone saying "Sukhumvit" as opposed to "Sukhumwit". Also, I have heard
> her express her opinion on the government that floated the baht by using
> a well known english adjective followed by the name "Chavalit", not
> "Chawalit". She also from the time I met her never had any problem with
> pronouncing v when speaking English. R, yes, but not v. Very became
> velly, not welly.
Of course I do not gainsay your observations but I do find them
surprising. The Thais to whom I speak always seem to pronounce it as our
"w". The single exception which comes to mind is the case of a Thai girl
who used to be friendly with my wife (she has since emigrated to Spain
with her farang husband); she always used to pronounce the word
/khwaam-/ (the word which may be used to create an abstract noun from an
adjective) as "khvaam". I never knew nor asked her why she adopted this odd
pronunciation and I do not know any other Thais who display the same
habit. She came from Udon Thani and spoke the Lao dialect.
> I wonder why that is since there is no v sound in the Thai language and
> the Thai have problems pronouncing it.
The Thais can pronounce "v" only once they've been taught. But the sound is
not especially problematical for them. A -ch at the end of a syllable is
the real killer. "Church" has given me hours of amusement in the past.
> BTW, what part of Thailand is your wife from. Mine is from Chaiyapum.
> Possible it is a regional dialect thing.
She's from the far North - /Am-phEE- MAA" Chan- jang-wat' Chiang- Rai-/
- and her mother tongue is /kham- mUaang-/ so there are certainly very
substantial differences between her standard speech and Central Thai.
However, my comments on the "v"/"w" dichotomy apply equally to the very
many Thais whom I know from all parts of the Kingdom.
BTW - here is the consonant transcription table from the SCT FAQ. You'll
note that no Thai consonant maps to "v":
__BEGIN QUOTE__
44 CONSONANTS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
k kh kh kh kh kh ng
j ch ch s ch y
d t th th th n
d t th th th n
b p ph f ph f ph m
y r l w s s s h l ? h
Final Sounds
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obstruent Endings: k or g, t or d, p or b
Sonorant Endings: ng n m y w
__END QUOTE__
--
Regards,
John Sharman
Benja Chanasit
On Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:44:57 GMT, jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) wrote:
>> I have always told Baarungs ong-klayh that ÇÍ sound in Thai must come out
>> of their 'lib and teeth' together.
>
>Then you've been telling them wrong. wOO- ("w") is lips only. fOO ("f") is
>lips and teeth.
>
pronounced as a labio-dental : with upper libs and lower teeth and the
best method to pronounce it correctly is to use upper teeth instead of
lower teeth
>> It's a special letter same as È, É, Ê (sh,
>> sÚ, s) cannot be treated as the same 'sOO'.
>What on earth are you talking about? Those three *are all* called /sOO+/
>
Saw Sua has to be pronounced as a dental. and the Thai people with good
hand of Thai language have closely pronounced another two Shaws as Shaw
Shaalaa ans shaw Ruashii knowing that there are derived from different sound
basement. You will never get to understand the Thai culture until
you can figure out these Thai alphabets.
>> No one in sct. listens to me !
>I wonder why!
>
>> Faw Faang (straw) must be coming out of Lib only and it should
>> pronounced as voiceless aspirated.
>
>Nonsense. It's lips and teeth.
wow... you will never get it. the sound basement for faw is
labial, not libs and teeth. Go and figure out !
>--
>Regards,
>
>John Sharman
benja
Donna Mattingly
end...@netcomuk.co.uk wrote in article
<34b9852c...@nntp.netcomuk.co.uk>...
> On 10 Jan 1998 23:31:44 GMT, "Donna Mattingly" <snow...@kih.net>
> wrote:
>
> >My dear, dear Tchiowa...if you only knew...
> >Had I a choice in the matter, I would have preferred "Miss Universe" :
)
>
>
> Shouldn't that be "Miss Uniwerse" :-)
>
AUAUAUGHGHGHGHHGHG!!!!!
What EVER was I thinking when I posted that first message?? Life was so
simple then...
Johpa
I have often heard the /w/ in "waa ween" pronounced as something close to a
/v/. I believe many Thais use a sound intermediate between /v/ and /w/. It
may very well be that the phoneme assimilates towards one or the other
relative to the neighboring sounds in the word. It may also be a regional
phonetic characteristic. As a syllable initial consonant, I percieve it
closer to a /v/.
Rest in Peace Gwyn,
Johpa
TIGER SHARK
In a previous article, jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) says:
>
>In article <34B99D...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
>
>>
>> First a couple of comments then a question. If they are taught to speak
>> the v sound in school, why are you saying that you have such a hard time
>> teaching your wife?
>
>I didn't say or suggest that I had a hard time teaching her, merely that
>I told her that our "v" sound is close (but not identical) to the sound
>of the Thai consonant /fOO/. My wife left school at age 12. I gather
>that during the last couple of years prior to that her school attendance
>was patchy owing to the need for her to /chuaay" phOO" mAA" tham- naa-/.
>Nevertheless she was taught some basic English. However, she was taught
>that the name of the consonant "v" was /wii-/ which is in itself
>confusing. She certainly used to say "welly" for "very".
We have been taught to use "v" and "w" interchangeably on
pronunciation. However, a lot of Thais who attended a good school
which has real English speaking teachers at the early ages probably
overcome the problem in distinguishing these fake twins.
>> Second, someone posted a comment that the only time the Thai use the v
>> sound is when they're talking to an English speaker. Wasn't that the
>> exact scenario that brought up this topic?
>
>My experience is that educated Thais can correctly use the "v" sound in
>English, because they've been taught. Similarly, uneducated Thais who
>have spent time abroad or with farangs pick up the correct sound. My
>point is that there are no words in the Thai language (other than
>foreign "imports") which are correctly pronounced to include our "v"
>sound. Even then the "w" creeps in. "Ovaltine" is pronounced
>/oo-wan-thiin-/ by all the kids in my experience.
>
>> Now the question. I've violated my own rules when discussing this issue.
>> Normally the correct thing to do is to make sure that you understand the
>> other person's position accurately before you argue a point. Apparently
>> I failed to do that. Let me try again to understand what you're saying.
>>
>> When I stay in Bangkok I stay in a hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 8. I've seen
>> dozens of road signs on Sukhumvit. They all say "Sukhumvit". Also, there
>> are freeway signs that say the same.
>
>Although I've seen these same signs hundreds of times, I cannot remember
>the romanised spelling. I always read the Thai characters and, believe
>me, according to the Thai characters the final syllable is "wit".
They use "vit" not "wit." It seems to me that the officials always use
spelling over pronoucing in transliterating. I don't know why they use
"v" for "wOO- wAAn+ (ring)" in most cases which are supposed to be "w."
Many people who come from Northern and North Eastern Thailand have
difficulty pronouncing the correct "khwaam." They simply say "faam"
to be exact.
>> I wonder why that is since there is no v sound in the Thai language and
>> the Thai have problems pronouncing it.
>
>The Thais can pronounce "v" only once they've been taught. But the sound is
>not especially problematical for them. A -ch at the end of a syllable is
>the real killer. "Church" has given me hours of amusement in the past.
Most Thais don't pronounce the end consonant at all, the obvious
examples are: d, verbs ending with ed, k, t, even s, ever heard my
"bod" (boss)?
--
Willy
John Sharman
> In a previous article, jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) says:
> >
> >In article <34B99D...@HoTMaiL.com> tchi...@HoTMaiL.com "Tchiowa" writes:
[..]
> >> When I stay in Bangkok I stay in a hotel on Sukhumvit Soi 8. I've seen
> >> dozens of road signs on Sukhumvit. They all say "Sukhumvit". Also, there
> >> are freeway signs that say the same.
> >
> >Although I've seen these same signs hundreds of times, I cannot remember
> >the romanised spelling. I always read the Thai characters and, believe
> >me, according to the Thai characters the final syllable is "wit".
>
> They use "vit" not "wit." It seems to me that the officials always use
> spelling over pronoucing in transliterating. I don't know why they use
> "v" for "wOO- wAAn+ (ring)" in most cases which are supposed to be "w."
But how do they choose between the two alternatives when faced with
/wOO- wAAn+/ in the original? Why have I never seen "Surivongse Road" or
"Vong Vian Yai"?
[..]
> >Of course I do not gainsay your observations but I do find them
> >surprising. The Thais to whom I speak always seem to pronounce it as our
> >"w". The single exception which comes to mind is the case of a Thai girl
> >who used to be friendly with my wife (she has since emigrated to Spain
> >with her farang husband); she always used to pronounce the word
> >/khwaam-/ (the word which may be used to create an abstract noun from an
> >adjective) as "khvaam". I never knew nor asked her why she adopted this odd
> >pronunciation and I do not know any other Thais who display the same
> >habit. She came from Udon Thani and spoke the Lao dialect.
>
> Many people who come from Northern and North Eastern Thailand have
> difficulty pronouncing the correct "khwaam." They simply say "faam"
> to be exact.
You're right. That's pretty much how she said it. Does Lao have a "v"
sound?
[..]
> Most Thais don't pronounce the end consonant at all, the obvious
> examples are: d, verbs ending with ed, k, t, even s, ever heard my
> "bod" (boss)?
Could this be the explanation for the complaints which Supat used to
come out with to the effect that his superiors were "bad bots"?
Tchiowa
John Sharman wrote:
> But how do they choose between the two alternatives when faced with
> /wOO- wAAn+/ in the original? Why have I never seen "Surivongse Road"
There's a good example. Why "Suriwongse" and "Sukhumvit" when both use
the same consonant? And I do hear the "w" in Suriwongse and I hear the
"v" in Sukhumvit.
Screw it. Make them all speak English. ;-)
> Regards,
>
> John Sharman
>
Tchiowa
Johpa wrote:
>
> I have often heard the /w/ in "waa ween" pronounced as something close to a
> /v/.
Finally someone who has heard the same thing I have. At least I know I'm
not going nuts.
> I believe many Thais use a sound intermediate between /v/ and /w/. It
> may very well be that the phoneme assimilates towards one or the other
> relative to the neighboring sounds in the word. It may also be a regional
> phonetic characteristic.
I get the feeling that may be the most exact explanation.
DKESSEL
many seem to imply that the Thais use the word "farang" in an unoffensive
way becuase they come from a uniquely different culture..
then they also should feel happy if we stick fingers at them and beckon
them with Hey, oriental! after all, that is OK for them right?
Why do they feel offended?
i know the reason why...
they are just less educated than most Western nations and also are not used
to living with other nationalities..except the Chinese..maybe..
Vincent T. Lynch
"DKESSEL" <david....@MCI2000.com> wrote:
You believe that because cultural experiences are different in other
countries that that means one country's attitude is SUPERIOR to
another country's attitude. Thank you, Ugly American.
It's very interesting to see this attitude from a westerner. Are you
British or American. Either way, shall I recount the imperialistic
"attitude" of the British for a century or the way in which most of
the North American continent became American?
And fruther, let's take America. A land of racial harmony? I hardly
think so.
Kwanmuang Boonma
You seem to refuse to listen to other people's reasons. So it's no use
if I would tell you anything you don't want to listen. If you do what
you said, Thais will not perceive it as your insult to them because they
don't go out to insult people like that. All it will do is just to make
them think that you are 'farang baba bohboh'.
I hope you can eventually find some place in this world that you can be
happy.
TIGER SHARK
In a previous article, david....@MCI2000.com ("DKESSEL") says:
>many seem to imply that the Thais use the word "farang" in an unoffensive
>way becuase they come from a uniquely different culture..
>
>then they also should feel happy if we stick fingers at them and beckon
>them with Hey, oriental! after all, that is OK for them right?
>
>Why do they feel offended?
>
>i know the reason why...
>
>they are just less educated than most Western nations and also are not used
>to living with other nationalities..except the Chinese..maybe..
You're not just a big fool. You're a big narrow-minded stupid fool.
The Lord Buddha wouldn't even dare preach you, the lowest class of
lotus underneath the mud.
I'm happy that only a handful of farangs here share the same sentiment
with you "farang ngo ngaw bao punya." You've constantly shown your
ignorance by humiliating those people who simply have less opportunity
than you while in fact you're the one who has less knowledge about what
you're talking about. The real difference between you and them is they
are preachable. Open your eyes and mind before open your mouth.
--
Willy
Vincent T. Lynch
tig...@aztec.asu.edu (TIGER SHARK) wrote:
>In a previous article, david....@MCI2000.com ("DKESSEL") says:
>>many seem to imply that the Thais use the word "farang" in an unoffensive
>>way becuase they come from a uniquely different culture..
>>
>>then they also should feel happy if we stick fingers at them and beckon
>>them with Hey, oriental! after all, that is OK for them right?
>>
>>Why do they feel offended?
>>
>>i know the reason why...
>>
>>they are just less educated than most Western nations and also are not used
>>to living with other nationalities..except the Chinese..maybe..
>You're not just a big fool. You're a big narrow-minded stupid fool.
>The Lord Buddha wouldn't even dare preach you, the lowest class of
>lotus underneath the mud.
An an American who learned to accept Buddhism through my frequent
travels in Thailand, I am quite hurt that you would use Buddha's name
in a put down of someone else for whatever reason. I cannot believe
that Lord Buddha would agree with you. You obviously do not really
understand his teachings.
If you think I am wrong, please cite specific quotations from the
teaching of Lord Buddha where he would refer to people as being a
"stupid fool" or the "lowest class of lotus underneath the mud".
After a lot of reading about Buddhism, I cannot recall Lord Buddha
ever having been attributed to saying anything of that nature.
TIGER SHARK
In a previous article, loveb...@mindspring.com (Vincent T. Lynch) says:
>An an American who learned to accept Buddhism through my frequent
>travels in Thailand, I am quite hurt that you would use Buddha's name
>in a put down of someone else for whatever reason. I cannot believe
>that Lord Buddha would agree with you. You obviously do not really
>understand his teachings.
>
>If you think I am wrong, please cite specific quotations from the
>teaching of Lord Buddha where he would refer to people as being a
>"stupid fool" or the "lowest class of lotus underneath the mud".
>After a lot of reading about Buddhism, I cannot recall Lord Buddha
>ever having been attributed to saying anything of that nature.
The Lord Buddha has classified the ability to learn and accept
knowledge (Wi Cha) of a person into 4 groups as the following:
1. The first group (highest) lotus (over the water surface):
The person who has highest ability to learn and accept knowledge,
only a slightest clue from The Lord Buddha will make him reach to
the state of Enlightenment (read genius: Pun Ya Prad Preung)
You'll almost never have come across to this group of people in your
life time.
2. The second group lotus (in the body of water):
The person who has some abilities to learn and accept knowledge,
who needs more time and more advice from The Lord Buddha, he will
reach to the state of Enlightenment (read intelligent: Cha Lard)
Very few people fall into this group.
3. The third group of lotus (over the surface of mud):
The person who has less ability to learn and accept knowledge,
who needs a lot of time and effort, and much more advice from
The Lord Buddha, he will eventually succeed to the state of
Enlightenment, even though it may take him several reincarnations
to reach to the state of Enlightenment (read average: Sa Mun)
Most people fall into this group.
4. The fourth group of lotus (beneath the mud):
The person who has no ability at all to learn and accept knowledge,
no matter how much effort and time have been given to him,
The Lord Buddha will never be able to help him reach to the state of
Enlightenment (read hopeless: Chod Khao Bao Pun Ya: stupid fool)
One example is Thao The Wa Thut who wants to kill The Lord Buddha
and takes over the role of the leader. Please note the present tense.
Some people fall into this group.
Because of my limited English, I've translated very loosely from my long
time momory reading books including The Pra Tri Pi Ta Ka (Pra Tri Pe Dok:
The Buddhist Canon: The Bible in Buddhism comprised from words of
The Lord Buddha which were memorized by Pra Anon, the youngest follower at
the time of The Lord Buddha. Then His words were published after the
first meeting of His Enlightened Followers).
I hope you hurt no more. Life is suffering anyway. It's the first of
the Fourth Noble Truths.
If you have a chance to go to Bangkok again, please visit Wat Chon La
Pra Than Rang Sa Lit near Pak Kred, Nontaburi (adjacent to Bangkok).
Pay your respects to one of the most revered monks at this current time:
Than Pra Ajarn Pun Ya Nun Tha Phi Khu. And see it for yourself what
methods and types of words (path) He uses to preach different types
of people according to the 4 groups of lotus.
"One who sees the truths (Tham), One who sees Us (The Lord Buddha)."
I wish you will be the One.
--
Willy
TIGER SHARK
In a previous article, jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) says:
>In article <69lih2$m...@news.asu.edu> tig...@aztec.asu.edu "TIGER SHARK" writes:
>> >
>> >Although I've seen these same signs hundreds of times, I cannot remember
>> >the romanised spelling. I always read the Thai characters and, believe
>> >me, according to the Thai characters the final syllable is "wit".
>>
>> They use "vit" not "wit." It seems to me that the officials always use
>> spelling over pronoucing in transliterating. I don't know why they use
>> "v" for "wOO- wAAn+ (ring)" in most cases which are supposed to be "w."
>
>But how do they choose between the two alternatives when faced with
>/wOO- wAAn+/ in the original? Why have I never seen "Surivongse Road" or
>"Vong Vian Yai"?
Lottery perhaps. I think it's up the the officials' taste.
>> >Of course I do not gainsay your observations but I do find them
>> >surprising. The Thais to whom I speak always seem to pronounce it as our
>> >"w". The single exception which comes to mind is the case of a Thai girl
>> >who used to be friendly with my wife (she has since emigrated to Spain
>> >with her farang husband); she always used to pronounce the word
>> >/khwaam-/ (the word which may be used to create an abstract noun from an
>> >adjective) as "khvaam". I never knew nor asked her why she adopted this odd
>> >pronunciation and I do not know any other Thais who display the same
>> >habit. She came from Udon Thani and spoke the Lao dialect.
>>
>> Many people who come from Northern and North Eastern Thailand have
>> difficulty pronouncing the correct "khwaam." They simply say "faam"
>> to be exact.
>
>You're right. That's pretty much how she said it. Does Lao have a "v"
>sound?
I have no idea, Loong John.
>> Most Thais don't pronounce the end consonant at all, the obvious
>> examples are: d, verbs ending with ed, k, t, even s, ever heard my
>> "bod" (boss)?
>
>Could this be the explanation for the complaints which Supat used to
>come out with to the effect that his superiors were "bad bots"?
I'd stay away from your personal conflicts, I have a lot already.
--
Willy
Vincent T. Lynch
tig...@aztec.asu.edu (TIGER SHARK) wrote:
Thank you for all that you wrote. I had not read that particular
thread, so you have taught me something. However, I do not believe
that Lord Buddha himself, or recommended that others, go around
hurling insults at other people.
Aaron Jenkins
In a previous article, loveb...@mindspring.com (Vincent T. Lynch) says:
>tig...@aztec.asu.edu (TIGER SHARK) wrote:
...snipped...
>Thank you for all that you wrote. I had not read that particular
>thread, so you have taught me something. However, I do not believe
>that Lord Buddha himself, or recommended that others, go around
>hurling insults at other people.
>
Did he say that the Buddha condemns people as stupid fool?
I've read the message and still can't figure out any implication
on that particular sentence. They are the correct translation from
chod (ngo) kao bao pun ya (=stupid fool) which are the best
description of the lowest class of lotus.
The 4-class lotus is certainly from the Buddha's speech and in fact,
the Buddha never condemns any living being, not to mention human being.
You're the one who brought up the issue and stuck on it.
Aaron Jenkins
In a previous article, be...@tkint.com (Benja Chanasit) says:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:44:57 GMT, jay...@norvic.demon.co.uk (John Sharman) wrote:
snipped...
>>Then you've been telling them wrong. wOO- ("w") is lips only. fOO ("f") is
>>lips and teeth.
>>
>Your understanding in Thai is nguu nguu, plaa plaa... waw has to be
>pronounced as a labio-dental : with upper libs and lower teeth and the
>best method to pronounce it correctly is to use upper teeth instead of
>lower teeth
>
>
>
>>What on earth are you talking about? Those three *are all* called /sOO+/
>>
>Saw Sua has to be pronounced as a dental. and the Thai people with good
>hand of Thai language have closely pronounced another two Shaws as Shaw
>Shaalaa ans shaw Ruashii knowing that there are derived from different sound
>basement. You will never get to understand the Thai culture until
>you can figure out these Thai alphabets.
Saw+ Sua+ (tiger), Saw+ Saa+ Laa- (shelter), and Saw+ Lua^ Sii+ (hermit)
are pronounced the same way by standard Thai. What you said about Shaw
Shaalaa and Shaw Ruashii are pronounced by Lao dialect, perhaps?
>>I wonder why!
>>
>>> Faw Faang (straw) must be coming out of Lib only and it should
>>> pronounced as voiceless aspirated.
Where is Faw Faang in the Thai alphabet system? Isn't it Faw- Fun-
(tooth) that your are talking about?
Thanwa Sripramong
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:22:55 GMT, loveb...@mindspring.com (Vincent
T. Lynch) wrote:
>"DKESSEL" <david....@MCI2000.com> wrote:
>
>>many seem to imply that the Thais use the word "farang" in an unoffensive
>>way becuase they come from a uniquely different culture..
>
>>then they also should feel happy if we stick fingers at them and beckon
>>them with Hey, oriental! after all, that is OK for them right?
>
>>Why do they feel offended?
>
>>i know the reason why...
>
>>they are just less educated than most Western nations and also are not used
>>to living with other nationalities..except the Chinese..maybe..
>
>You believe that because cultural experiences are different in other
>countries that that means one country's attitude is SUPERIOR to
>another country's attitude. Thank you, Ugly American.
>
>It's very interesting to see this attitude from a westerner. Are you
>British or American. Either way, shall I recount the imperialistic
>"attitude" of the British for a century or the way in which most of
>the North American continent became American?
>
>And fruther, let's take America. A land of racial harmony? I hardly
>think so.
>
>
>
>
I also add up with my comment. I am studying in UK. the country that
everyone here say they are "Civilized". But you know something. In
Universities here, about 30-60 percent are Oriental. You know what
Mahathir said when Autralian President talk about his country. He just
said if you won't say excuse, I'll call my students back, few days
later everything was OK by excuse from Australian.
As the same as here in London, While the Asian currency crisis goes
on. A lot of Asian students have to go back home. And now everyone
here are looking terribly about financial situation of Universities
because they are lost the biggest money sources from oriental country.
Then please do not say Oriental are un-educated or weak-educated but
everything shows as it goes.