Small girl kidnapped in Bangkok (disturbing article)
Vagabond
MISSING! Six Days on an Emotional Rollercoaster
Winning My Daughter Back From the Child Snatchers
by Robin W Martin (Freelance journalist based in Bangkok).
Loss. It is always bad news. If an object holding sentimental value is
misplaced it can be worse than losing a great deal of money. Losing
your favourite teddy-bear can feel like the end of the world. The
death of a parent is always terrible. It’s all a matter of degree. But
when a young child goes missing it is the greatest loss of all. And
when it happens far away from your own loved ones it hits all the
harder.
In May of this year it had been more than a decade since I had left
England. I am an only child, both my father and stepfather had died
and when I left I had been worried about leaving my mom on her own.
But she knew my restlessness and encouraged me in my plans. The travel
bug had bitten long before, and after having done most of Europe and
North Africa it was time to look for something really different. I
ended up in Thailand, a country that tourists were starting to add to
their trail, but which still retains a lot of ‘mystery’ to this day.
It was not long before I became enamored of the ‘Land of Smiles’ and
its polite people, and decided to stay for a while. After a few
relationships with Thai misses I finally found a lady I believed to be
the right one, and became the proud father of a beautiful daughter,
Achinee Joyce (nicknamed Sara). But this year delight with my lot
turned into despair. My five year old baby girl had disappeared.
The apartment complex in central Bangkok where we live is like a
little village all in itself. The residents are all friends and often
eat together, gossiping about the day’s happenings, which is the Thai
way. Doors are always open. If a couple should have business outside
the usual hours, there is always someone eager to take care of their
son or daughter for a while. My wife Boonhom works the night shift at
a hospital, and I am a freelance journalist, so Achinee has become
used to spending the odd night or two with her surrogate aunts or
uncles.
On the first Monday in May (2000) I had been busy, and my daughter had
spent the night with ‘Uncle’ Gordon, a retired US Navy gentleman with
a young son, whose mother is also Thai. Gordon had a live-in maid
cum-babysitter (Duan) who took care of his son Bobby, and Achinee was
a regular guest. Three days previously Bia, a friend of Duan’s, had
turned up unannounced, and they were sharing a mattress together as
she had nowhere else to stay. Bia was a young 17 year old girl from
the poor northeast of Thailand, who had never before been seen in the
apartment.
The following day Gordon, with the rest of his household, took my
daughter shopping, returning before midday. I bought my daughter her
lunch in the early afternoon, after which she played games with her
friends again. I was always close by, chatting with my friends in the
apartment’s coffee shop, and I stayed there until early evening.
Achinee was not around then, but neither was Gordon or Bobby, so I
assumed that they were enjoying themselves in Gordon’s apartment,
which was not unusual. I took the opportunity to go home and start
writing up a few pieces on my computer. I later dropped off to sleep,
secure in the belief that my daughter was staying over with Gordon for
another night.
The next morning Khoi, my brother-in-law, arrived to take Achinee out
for the day, and I went to Gordon’s to pick her up. Gordon looked
surprised and told me that Achinee had not stayed with him, and that
he had not seen her since the evening before. Although I was not sure
yet that anything amiss had occurred my heart began to race. I rushed
around, knocking on doors looking for her, with panic mounting as I
repeatedly received the reply; “No, Achinee is not here.” Or, “No, she
didn’t stay with us last night”. After two hectic hours of accosting
all we met and asking if anyone had seen Achinee, Khoi and myself were
sharing an iced lemonade, debating what to do next. My wife then
arrived on the scene, and frenziedly asked us if we had contacted the
police yet. In our panic neither of us had thought of it. But I
immediately raced upstairs to pick up a couple of photographs from the
apartment, and ran out to catch a taxi to the local police station.
The following five days would have been a nightmare if I could have
got any sleep. Which proved impossible.
Initial feelings of panic gradually subsided into a kind of
disbelieving numbness. How could it be that someone had taken away my
beautiful daughter? What did they want with her? Was she already out
of Thailand, on her way to be sold into adoption , slave labour … or
worse. I was fully aware of what can happen to missing children –
especially little girls. The newspaper headlines of little children
who had lost their lives kept trying to force themselves to the
surface, no matter how hard I tried to stop them. I did not know what
to do next, I could not think straight. At one point, after about 72
hours without sleep, I blinked, to find myself surrounded by
well-meaning friends. I had been standing in the middle of the
car-park shouting out my daughter’s name at the top of my voice. I
felt devastated. What could I do, was I never going to see Achinee
again? Had she already been spirited away and sold to a childless
couple? Or what? Or what?
I had taken to pacing up and down between the apartment’s exit and
entrance like a bear in a cage. I traced and retraced my steps
hundreds upon hundreds of times, always hoping to see Achinee pop her
head around the corner. Night turned into day once more, but as I had
been sleeplessly walking around I had at last come up with a new
strategy. I would print posters of my daughter and put them up around
busy spots in the city asking for help in finding her.
It seemed like a good idea, but all it did was to attract several sick
calls. The first was from a man claiming to be a ticket seller at the
city’s main bus depot. He rang the contact number he had seen on one
of the posters and reported that he had seen a girl resembling my
daughter boarding a bus bound for Chiang Rai. Chiang Rai is in the
north of Thailand, in the centre of the area known as the Golden
Triangle. I alerted the police who rushed a squad to the bus terminal
to check out the report. However, it was a busy holiday weekend, and
they could not locate the bus before it had departed. The highway
police stopped and searched it 30 kilometres outside Bangkok. But
Achinee was not aboard, and it was later discovered that the man who
had called in the report did not even work at the bus station, and
that the contact telephone number he had given was false. The call had
been a hoax. Subsequent calls from members of the public were treated
with rather less haste by the police.
The next brainwave a Brit friend had was that I should make use of my
media contacts. I phoned up a journalist from an English language
daily I knew, who came along to see me, and the next morning Achinee’s
photo appeared on the front page, together with a story appealing for
help. Later the same day a man called to say he believed he had seen
my daughter in the city two days before, with a young Thai girl. Other
calls from members of the public came in, some genuine, some obviously
not. But as we had received several offers of help after the story
appeared in the English language newspaper I asked my wife to contact
a Thai daily.
By now it was clear that Achinee hadn’t simply wandered off somewhere.
Everyone realised she had been abducted, and I wanted it reported
nationally. My wife agreed with me, and held out her hand for money.
It appears that while a Thai newspaper will print such stories, they
require payment. I was astounded, but I paid up. By now all the
residents of the apartment complex had become caught up in the drama,
as they all knew and loved Achinee. My daughter is an outgoing,
vivacious little girl, and has even appeared in advertisements on Thai
TV. It was not until later in the afternoon of the third day that
someone made the observation that Bia – the young girl who had been
staying at Gordon’s – had not been seen since the day Achinee
disappeared either. And that from the description the man who had
called earlier had given, it could well have been Bia that he had
seen.
The police were informed, and the focus was switched to looking for
Bia. Khoi went around Bangkok on a motorcycle with Duan (Gordon’s
maid), trying to locate her friend, as she was the only one who could
readily identify her. Duan, I was horrified to learn from a resident
of the apartment, had boasted that when living in England with a
British boyfriend she had spent time in jail for wounding someone with
a knife. However, when confronted she insisted that she had had
nothing to do with Achinee’s disappearance, and that she wanted to do
all that she could to help. But now she was looked upon with suspicion
by everyone. Many of the things she had said to various people in the
apartment seemed to contradict each other. Already intense and
overwrought I had to restrain myself from directing my anger at Duan.
Gordon asked me to keep cool. He pointed out that there was no
evidence (yet) to prove his maid’s involvement, but that he would
certainly keep a close eye on her from then on.
On Sunday morning we received a phone call from Bia to Duan that
lifted my spirits from the depths of despair they had sunk to. She was
in a province three hours to the east of Bangkok. She told us that she
had Achinee with her, and wanted to bring her home, but that she
didn’t have any money. My brother-in-law told her to wait in the local
train station, and he would go to pick them up. He set out within five
minutes, while my wife and myself stayed at the apartment in case any
more phone calls came. A few minutes later, sure enough, another call
came in and I rushed to grab the receiver. I will never forget the way
I felt when I heard my daughter’s voice – one that I had started to
believe I would never hear again – speaking to me for the first time
in a week. She was able to tell me she was fine, but that she was
hungry. Then the phone abruptly went dead as the money ran out. My
wife took over the next time it rang, and this time Bia was on the
other end of the line. My wife tearfully begged her to take care of
Achinee and to wait at the station until Khoi arrived to bring them
home. We later discovered that Achinee had seen her photo on the front
page of the Thai newspaper that morning, started crying, and said that
she wanted to go home to mama and papa. Bia (and whoever else)
apparently then panicked at the media and police attention.
Khoi’s journey would take him about three hours, and at the expected
time of his arrival there the phone rang. I picked it up to hear my
brother-in-law on the other end of the line. He said he was in the
train station. But that there was no sign of Achinee or Bia.
Crash! The feelings of hope that had filled me since the first phone
call that morning suddenly drifted off into thin air. I silently
resumed my mindless pacing, more lost than ever, my recent hopes
having been so abruptly dashed. But the TV crews, journalists, and
photographers that had descended upon the apartment when they heard an
end to the drama might be in sight were due to be paid back for their
time. They had spent the morning interviewing my family and other
residents, and were soon to be rewarded for their patience.
Sometime after 4 in the evening I was jolted out of my gloomy reverie
by a loud shout of “Robin!” I looked in the direction of the voice and
saw my daughter standing on the corner with a friend, only 50 metres
away. The next thing I knew I had scooped her up and was cuddling her,
oblivious to everything but her liquid brown eyes gazing into mine. I
slowly became aware that she was asking me why there were so many
people around. And she was asking, “Why” (with a wonderful innocence),
“are Mama and Aunty Noo crying?”
I make my living as a writer, but I could not answer her. I was lost
for words.
And the story has not ended yet. Bia has still not been found. She and
‘a man’ dropped Achinee off 100 metres from the apartment to walk in
by herself. Then promptly disappeared, as has Duan. Miraculously,
though, my daughter had not suffered any harm. She had been the victim
of an attempt by amateurs to break into the human trafficking trade. I
am one of the lucky ones. I thank God, Buddha – whoever – that I have
my daughter back. But there are many more less fortunate than me who
will never see their little girl again, and I know how they must feel.
Update Nov 2000
( Taken from Robin's email to myself )
" The police have still not found the maid Duan, or her 'niece' Bia.
I think they have left it on their backburner. I just hope those two
don't try it again, and make someone else go through the trauma I had
to. "
Background Info
In Southeast Asia the story is an all too common one. Trafficking of
children for prostitution, slave labour, or adoption is a
multi-million dollar industry. And it is getting worse year by year.
Unicef estimate that in the region more than one million children
under the age of eighteen enter the commercial sex trade every year.
And some are as young as seven years old.
Trafficking of women and children is rife in Southeast Asia due to a
combination of many factors: poverty, gender discrimination,
disintegration of traditional family and community values, lack of
satisfactory education, armed conflicts, and corruption. Unicef have
discovered that the problem is particularly bad in the Mekong
Sub-region, which consists of China’s Yunnan province, Thailand, Lao
PDR, Cambodia, Myanmar (Burma), and Vietnam. The police, UN agencies,
and other organisations have joined forces to combat the problem. They
report that children they have rescued from slave labour have been
forced to work 18 hours a day, fed only once, packed ten to a small
room, and are often beaten, raped, or otherwise abused. And of those
who have escaped from brothels some have been found to have had an
organ such as a kidney removed for subsequent sale on the black
market.
UN agencies report that 30% to 35% of commercial sex workers in the
Mekong Sub-region are under the age of 18. And that more than 50% have
been sold, tricked, or lured into it by someone they knew. A
disturbing trend is that younger and younger girls are being
trafficked, in the mistaken belief that having sex with younger girls
will reduce the risk of contracting AIDS/HIV. Prostitution is known as
the ‘world’s oldest profession’, but a new spin has been put on it in
Southeast Asia. A lucrative one as well. A 1995 study in Thailand
estimated that the total revenue from prostitution was equal to
between 50 and 60 % of the government’s total budget for that year.
And that is based on the conservative estimate of only 200,000
commercial sex workers.
The problem has become an epidemic. The developing countries of south
and Southeast Asia are fighting to contain the problem, in tandem with
agencies such as Unicef. But the help of the rest of the world is
desperately needed if they are to make any headway in their struggle.
Source: http://www.ajarn.com
Vagabond
this one is the most gut-wrenching so far. It is hard to understand
that humans can do such evil things to each others. I know that many
of the guys here on SCT who live in Thailand have children themselves,
and to them this must give reason for particular alarm and precaution.
Vagabond
Doug
expat devasted by a similar episode as described in the article, my Thai
wife and I decided to move our base to Australia. We still visit BKK often
due to cultural, academic, work and family ties - but it is hard to ensure
that your children are aware of the dangers without spoiling their fun in
BKK. In 1998 when my daughter was 3, a maid that worked for my
mother-in-law asked if she could look after my daughter while we went out to
dinner. Initially we were ok with this but my daughter for some reason (call
it fate if you like) wouldnt settle down with the maid (Dim) so we took her
along. Lucky for us because while we were all out the maid and her new b/f
took all the gold, the tv, video and all the precious buddhist statues and
disappeared. It made me think about her plans for my daughter.
Please note that this sort of thing happens in many countries - and that
this type of crime is often a symptom of poverty. Nevertheless when your own
are at risk the situation is 'different'.
Doug
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a093a71...@news.world-online.no...
Lumier
know what happens. Some time back when there was a lot of speculation,
I pointed out one of the main transit points for the poor girls is
Mahachai.
Lumier
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:39:41 GMT, reto...@hotmail.com (Vagabond)
wrote:
>I have read much about the "dark side of Thailand" over the years, but
>this one is the most gut-wrenching so far. It is hard to understand
>that humans can do such evil things to each others. I know that many
>of the guys here on SCT who live in Thailand have children themselves,
>and to them this must give reason for particular alarm and precaution.
>
>
>Vagabond
>
Dont just stand there. Panic!!!!
osama
do something about it....in the story it was this that brought the happy
ending, but this is obviously this is not the case for most Thais. The real
tragedy here is that this must be happening to equally loving parents all
over SE Asia region.
Thai children, I imagine will only be playing a small role supplying " the
goods". I suppose the market for adoptions may well be for the more white
skinned Eurasian, but the power of communicating, such as was the case in
the story, has to be weighed against this. If this were to happen to a
visitor's kids all hell would break loose and every government agency in the
country would be working to find the child, such is the power of the western
press interested in an abduction of one of "their own".
I don't know to what extent the adoption industry is responsible for these
abductions, but there is seemingly a huge adoption market in Cambodia at the
moment, and I would not believe this is supplied entirely by orphans in
need. A good part of the blame for these abductions has to be placed in the
people that come to SE Asia looking for unregulated adoptions.
But like everything else here, Thailand is in the front of peoples minds. If
this is happening here, it will be happening a lot worse in its Northern and
Eastern neighbours, only westerners are not feeling the tragedy. That's
equally gut wrenching.
osama
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a093a71...@news.world-online.no...
Soiboy
> I assumed that they were enjoying themselves in Gordon’s apartment,
> which was not unusual. I took the opportunity to go home and start
> writing up a few pieces on my computer. I later dropped off to sleep,
the rest is all bullshit
Soiboy
What a complete idiot!
Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every country's
newspapers.
Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
Complete IDIOT of a parent more like it.
Many many more stories like this in the US than in Thailand.
Thailand (having lived there) is a MUCH safer country overall than the US.
Don't even try to tell me otherwise you half wit!
Are you truely this stupid? That in itSELF is disturbing.
Soiboy
country.
A dizzying array of paranoid, single-digit IQs.
Uhm you hire someone to be in your house 24 hours a day and don't really
know her?
I think it's OK if I call that really stupid.
Did you know anything about Thailand before you went there? Don't tell me,
Oh, my wife is Thai, so I know.
Jeez where do all these MORONs come from?
"Doug" <trig...@hotmail.com.au> wrote in message
news:3a094239$0$19412$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> Having a stunning 5 year old 'look krung' daughter and after seeing
another
> expat devasted by a similar episode as described in the article, my Thai
> wife and I decided to move our base to Australia. We still visit BKK often
> due to cultural, academic, work and family ties - but it is hard to ensure
> that your children are aware of the dangers without spoiling their fun in
> BKK. In 1998 when my daughter was 3, a maid that worked for my
> mother-in-law asked if she could look after my daughter while we went out
to
> dinner. Initially we were ok with this but my daughter for some reason
(call
> it fate if you like) wouldnt settle down with the maid (Dim) so we took
her
> along. Lucky for us because while we were all out the maid and her new b/f
> took all the gold, the tv, video and all the precious buddhist statues and
> disappeared. It made me think about her plans for my daughter.
>
> Please note that this sort of thing happens in many countries - and that
> this type of crime is often a symptom of poverty. Nevertheless when your
own
> are at risk the situation is 'different'.
>
> Doug
>
Soiboy
Stupid, paranoid, ignorant git.
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ubsf1$aki$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
Soiboy
using the Internet. I just wigged-out and went into "babble mode". Sorry
for my irrational response to your posting, Vagabond.
Soiboy
"Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> Oh fuck you!
> What a complete idiot!
> Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every country's
> newspapers.
> Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
> Complete IDIOT of a parent more like it.
> Many many more stories like this in the US than in Thailand.
> Thailand (having lived there) is a MUCH safer country overall than the US.
> Don't even try to tell me otherwise you half wit!
> Are you truely this stupid? That in itSELF is disturbing.
>
shocks
anymore for children. The papers in the U.K. are full of stories of
abductions. I'm a new parent and I worry about it all the time.
Cheap Charlie
an older European couple who were killed by villagers in S. America a
few years ago because of a false rumor circulating of a local child
having been kidnaped by foreigners. A case of urban myth meets mob
mentality. Here is another tragic item which appeared in todays Mumbai
news. Note the organ theft aspect- truly chilling! -Charlie
Wednesday November 8, 11:53 AM
Four Assam girls rescued from pimp
The Social Service Branch rescued four girls, who were abducted by a
pimp from Assam, at Santa Cruz yesterday. Senior Police Inspector
Shirish Inamdar had received a tip-off the four teenaged girls, missing
from a village in Assam, are going to be sold in the city.
The Assam police had arrested three women – Golbanu Begum, Ranu Begum
and Padmini Kalita – a few months ago for allegedly selling these girls
to a pimp, Bobby Shaikh. They were tipped that Shaikh was in Mumbai
with the girls. They informed the Mumbai police about the racket.
Accordingly, Inamdar and Deputy Commissioner of Police Pradnya
Sarvodaya passed on the matter to Assistant Police Inspector Prahlad
Kharpude and Police Sub-Inspector Nandkumar Gopale.
The police team, after finding that that Shaikh was going to Shastri
Nagar in Santa Cruz to sell the girls yesterday, laid a trap and
arrested him. The girls have been kept in Chembur rescue room.
Kharpude told MID-DAY, ‘‘The modus operandi of Shaikh’s gang was to
lure girls from the small villages by promising them to fulfill their
requirements in Mumbai. Once here, they were forced into prostitution.
However, this time they did not sell the girls for five months.’’
Kharpude added, ‘‘We have informed the Assam police about it, who will
soon reach the city to take charge of Shaikh and the girls. Prior to
that Shaikh will be produced in court for conviction.’’
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright © 2000 Mid-Day Multimedia Ltd all rights reserved
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
rump...@my-deja.com
made up) is the "background info"!
Here we hear the same old lies and half truth again:
- the all too common story of the multi million dollar child trafficking
industry: Just doesn't ring true, the abduction, housing, feeding and
the bribing of the police - all necessary to keep those "slaves" -
while Thai's pay about $2 or $3 for a short time - just not enough to
make that profitable, not to mention the stiff penalties that Thailand
has and lately enforces...
- the over one million child prostitutes (everyone under 18) The number
has been questioned many times but you just can't kill this urban legend
- prostitution because of poverty (doesn't explain why there are not 100
times more prostitutes in Burma, India, Bangladesh and Nepal where
people are much poorer then in Thailand
- 30 to 35% are under 18, 50% have been sold... numbers just drawn out
of a hat! Totally useless!
- and again the gigantic profits made by the pimps - nonsense!
This stories are fabricated by a variety of organizations including
unicef to get more funding or in case of NGO's donations.
reto...@hotmail.com (Vagabond) wrote:
The only problem that is an epidemic is that this defamation and lying
never stops!
rump...@my-deja.com
shocks wrote:
>
> As much as I hate to agree with Soiboy, he's right.
> No where is truly safe anymore for children.
> The papers in the U.K. are full of stories of
> abductions. I'm a new parent and I worry about it all the time.
Firstly congratulations new dad!
Keep this in mind: Child abuse is a sad reality and I urge every parent
to watch out for their children. However, the occurrence of assault
against children is probably as high as it was 500 years ago (when we
didn't have newspapers or TV) and no need to bend the truth in order to
confuse the public for political reasons and extort funding for various
gov. agencies...
Fact: 90% of crimes against children are - incomprehensible as it is -
committed by parents, close relatives and those otherwise near children.
disturbingly many of the rest 10% are assaulted by other children!
The chance having your child stalked by a weirdo is about as high as
being struck by a asteroid!
U.K. papers are not only full of stories they're also full of shit! You
don't really believe the crap they're writing?
s...@bigpond.com
I happen to have had the "pleasure" if you could call it that of
knowing of this guy a few years ago,and I have heard the other side of
this story from people I know who still have contact with him.
The reality is this guy is a classic no-hoper drunk,spends most of his
time sitting around drinking Mekhong,doesnt really work, just some so
called freelance journalism.
When I knew them she had a cart (selling I cant remember what) she
used to wheel up Petchburi Rd. (He never helped her just sat around
getting drunk while she was struggling with the cart.)
The story Ive heard is that the girl who took the child felt sorry for
it and she took the child for its own good. The police probably know
this and that is why they seem uninterested in following up.
This guy is so drunk most nights he wouldnt know whats going on.
Hes disliked by the locals and most farangs would have little to do
with him as well.
They live in the Miami apartment complex and anyone who knows this
area would know a lot of desperate people live around there
I would be taking very little notice of "his story"
On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:26:28 GMT, reto...@hotmail.com (Vagabond)
wrote:
Lumier
blame. It is the rich that get the pleasure! Ain't it all a Fucking
Shame!!!!!!
Lumier
Dont just stand there. Panic!!!!
Vagabond
>The story Ive heard is that the girl who took the child felt sorry for
>it and she took the child for its own good. The police probably know
>this and that is why they seem uninterested in following up.
Hmmm. I am not sure what to believe now. If the story is false, it is
a nasty case of playing on people's emotions for profit. (This story
supposedly was printed in "The Times" of London.) If it is true, the
writer deserves better than being called names on SCT.
On one hand, you have heard a "story", another version of events, that
contradicts what Robin W. Martin says. On the other hand, even if Mr.
Martin is a less-than-successful farang as you allege, what is the
relevance? His child could still be kidnapped. In fact, it may make it
more likely, as it is safer to steal children whose parents have
limited resources with which to fight back.
I suggest we ask Mr. Martin to defend his story.
Mr. Martin, please reply.
Vagabond
osama
osama
"Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message news:m1mO5.45$Qe1.9483@elnws01...
Vagabond
May 8 2000 FAR EAST
Thai kidnappers give girl, 5, back to parents
FROM ANDREW DRUMMOND IN BANGKOK
A BRITISH father wept with relief last night after his five-year-old
daughter was dumped on his doorstep five days after being kidnapped.
Sara, the daughter of Robin Martin, 45, a travel writer based in the
Thai capital Bangkok, is thought to have been an intended victim of
the thriving trafficking trade in Thailand. Children are sold to
childless couples and into the child sex industry.
Mr Martin said: "I can't describe how relieved I am. When kids go
missing here they can go missing for ever."
Sara, who once appeared in a Johnson's Baby Powder advertising
campaign, was returned after Thai police lifted a news blackout on the
case and her picture was printed in the popular press and broadcast
nationwide. Police believe the publicity frightened the kidnappers
into giving her up.
The five-year-old was kidnapped last week when a girl calling herself
Bia approached her and a young boy who were playing outside Mr
Martin's apartment block. She took them to a local shop to buy sweets,
then told the boy to go home.
Mr Martin, originally from Birmingham but now living in Bangkok with
his Thai wife, Sara's mother Boonhom, said: "The girl Bia had been
around the apartment block and I had seen her playing with Sara a
couple of times. We established that the girl came from Prachinburi
[150 miles north-east of Bangkok] so I notified the police and some of
my in-laws went up to look for her. I also made up posters and put
them up around the neighbourhood.
"It was a local motorcycle taxi driver who shouted, 'Hey look at
this'. Then Sara came waddling round the corner in her little blue
dress. I grabbed and kissed and hugged her."
Thai police have issued an arrest warrant for "Bia", believed to be
aged 17, and are trying to identify the driver of the car in which
Sara was returned.
Several markets for children exist in Thailand. Some are smuggled over
the border to Malaysia and sold. Others go to Western couples. The
Bangkok-based Centre for the Protection of Children has a unit
investigating the trade.
In a similar case, Thai consular officials in the United States are
waiting to send back a two-year-old Thai boy called Phanupong, who had
been sold for just £200 to a human trafficking syndicate. He was being
used as a cover for Asian women entering the US illegally.
Source: http://www.the-times.co.uk
http://www.times-archive.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/05/08/timfgnfar01002.html
osama
strange thing is here that the thai's don't worry much about anything, but
when it comes to child abductions many of them are shit scared. The one
thing that my mother in law worries about is this. She has plenty of
stories of this happening to Thai's. I have heard some terrible stories of
abductions of Thai kids and of course westerners do not hear any of them.
It's the usual story, things that reach page one for days in the UK press
would reach a paragraph in page 24 in the thai papers.
Reading the other posting, I think I took the story a bit too much at face
value. Sai's response certainly sounds like the real world. I quite agree
that the chance of it happening to a westerners kid is very small, but I
still think it would be rather stupid to think that this could never happen.
It's not like Thai's to worry, so why the concern from them about this?
osama
osama
and lovely smiling children. no one is unhappy and no one does any bad. it
is a land of complete freedom. it is also not any more corrupt than the west
nor is it any more polluted than the west. everyone here is just wonderful.
in it's neighbouring countries like Cambodia the situation is very similar.
Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader. in fact SE Asia is a
sweet paradise for all people living and visiting here. Don't even try to
tell me otherwise.
osama
"Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> Oh fuck you!
> What a complete idiot!
> Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every country's
> newspapers.
> Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
> Complete IDIOT of a parent more like it.
> Many many more stories like this in the US than in Thailand.
> Thailand (having lived there) is a MUCH safer country overall than the US.
> Are you truely this stupid? That in itSELF is disturbing.
>
osama
story than this.....actually if I had known that this story was in the UK
press I would have been immediately cynical myself. Endorsed by such a name
as "Vagabond" sure helped to fool me!! Certainly all that UN stuff is
extremely eggagerated and much of it is lies. In have a loathing for these
self serving beaurocrats myself.
I remember reading this year in the UK press in a "background" paragraph
that Thailand has massage parlours filled with child prostitutes. It's like
an advert for paedophiles. Why didn't they say having sex with a child even
with consent is statutory rape and you could be jailed for 20 years instead
of such lies? There sure is an insatiable market for these stories. I just
wonder who could possible sue them.
osama
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a0ab4ee...@news.world-online.no...
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:48:24 GMT, s...@bigpond.com wrote:
> >The story Ive heard is that the girl who took the child felt sorry for
> >it and she took the child for its own good. The police probably know
> >this and that is why they seem uninterested in following up.
>
Vagabond
Tip-off sets police on trail of kidnapper
THE parents of missing fiveyearold Sara Martin have denied that family
or money problems could be reasons for her abduction.
Sara disappeared from the family's apartment complex near Petchaburi
Road, central Bangkok, on Tuesday.
"We do not have any problems outside the norm," said her distraught
father, Britishborn journalist Robin Martin.
He has been desperately searching for his daughter since she went
missing.
Following a tipoff police searched Mor Chit bus station on Friday
evening for the girl and her alleged female abductor.
But there was no sign of them.
Her father has personally distributed pictures of her in supermarkets,
shops and streets in the area in a bid to trace his daughter.
Yesterday Martin received a telephone call from a reader of The Nation
who said he saw Sara with her abductor in central Bangkok earlier in
the week.
The description given by The Nation reader fitted Sara, who he said he
overheard speaking in a mix of English and Thai.
The caller said he was suspicious and asked the woman where she was
taking the child.
The woman claimed the pair was mother and daughter and they were
travelling to northern Thailand.
"The parents are frustrated with the situation and we appeal to the
country as a whole to help find the child as she is in extreme
danger," said Fr Joe Maier director of the Human Development Centre.
The foundation (HDC) is a rescue centre for homeless children in Klong
Toey.
HDC has joined the efforts of police and the Martin family to recover
the little girl.
According to Martin, Sara's playmate, and a number of neighbours saw a
young Thai woman remove Sara from Miami Mansions on Tuesday evening.
The woman is suspected to be Bian, a temporary visitor to Miami
Mansion, where she stayed with a friend for three days last week.
She is known to live in Roi Et.
Martin has provided a description of the woman to the police at
Makkasan Police Station, who are handling the case.
"I just hope this is not a false trail, and I really fear for the
safety of my daughter," Martin said last night.
"This girl who the police are trying to track down could have already
sold Sara to an intermediary.
"So we are really no further forward in securing her safe return," he
said.
Martin said he was within 100m of the children's play area at Miami
Mansion when Sara was snatched on Tuesday evening.
The girl's mother, Boonhom, was working at the local hospital at the
time.
Information about the case should be given to Makkasan Police Station,
telephone 318 1821.
BY Laurena Cahill
The Nation
Vagabond
Father, police search for 5-year-old girl
POLICE combed Morchit bus station last night in a bid to track down
five-year-old Sara Martin, who is feared to have been abducted. The
parents of the little girl, who has been missing since Tuesday
evening, have launched an emotional appeal for information on her
whereabouts.
Sara was last seen outside the family apartment – Miami Mansions Two –
off New Phetburi Road playing with friends. She was wearing a yellow
and white top and a yellow skirt. Neighbours say they saw Sara being
offered a bracelet by a Thai woman shortly before her disappearance.
“I can’t believe that this is happening. I am just hoping that she
will somehow show up,” Robin Martin, the girl’s Britishborn father
told The Nation last night.
Police began a search of Morchit bus station following a tipoff from a
ticket vendor, who claimed he saw a girl resembling Sara yesterday
evening boarding an air conditioned bus bound for Chiang Rai.
Police immediately began a search of the station, but admitted that
the sheer volume of traffic over the holiday weekend made the job of
finding the girl virtually impossible. Martin, a freelance journalist,
who has lived at Miami Apartments for a number of years was puzzled,
confused and distraught last night.
“I have no idea why anybody would take my daughter. She is a beautiful
little girl. She has never strayed like this before and she has been
warned not to accept gifts from strangers. But she loves trinkets such
as jewellery.
“We have had reports from neighbours that one or possibly two women
were seen talking to Sara. I am really at a loss to know what has
really happened. I haven’t slept since she disappeared.”
Martin says he originally thought that Sara was visiting a friend’s
apartment in the complex and was not unduly worried when she first
disappeared from sight. She was playing in the front yard of the
apartment and he was within 100 metres of Sara’s group of friends.
However, he admits that he was periodically distracted while chatting
to his neighbours.
The girl’s mother Boonhom was working her regular night shift at a
local hospital at the time of Sara’s disappearance. In a bid to boost
efforts to find the girl, Martin has distributed over 100 posters
throughout Bangkok appealing for help.
Anybody with information on Sara’s whereabouts should contact Robin
Martin by telephone at 252 1005 ext 607 or Makkasan Police Station at
Vagabond
Abducted girl mystery deepens
CIRCUMSTANCES surrounding the abduction of five-year-old Sara Martin
have become murkier, with accusations emerging that the father,
British-born Robin Martin, knew the alleged abductor, 17-year-old Bia.
An independent witness allegedly saw Martin and Bia arguing over money
last week, a Makkasan police source confirmed last night. Police
believe revenge was the most likely motive in Sara's abduction.
Martin strenuously denied he knew Bia. "These accusations are all
rubbish and totally ridiculous. I never had a relationship with Bia. I
have had no connection with her. Yesterday I was so happy to get my
daughter back, and now this has been destroyed by these totally
incomprehensible rumours. It's a conspiracy," he said.
The allegations were first made public by iTV yesterday, which aired
an interview with the aunt of the alleged abductor. The woman, known
as Wongduan, told police Bia and Martin knew each other.
Sara was snatched from her father's home at Miami Apartments on
Phetchaburi Road one week ago. The girl was taken to the eastern
province of Prachinburi. No ransom was demanded by her 17-year-old
abductor, who appeared to have panicked when she saw the media
attention the case had generated.
The young woman unexpectedly returned an unharmed Sara to her parents
in Bangkok on Sunday.
Police admitted to being puzzled by the case, as the motive for the
abduction was unclear. Martin was questioned at length by police on
Sunday afternoon and evening.
The case has been further complicated by the fact Wongduan worked at
Miami Apartments for an American-born friend of the Martins.
The police investigation was moved from Makkasan police station
yesterday, and detectives at Division One are now handling the case.
Police spent much of Sunday evening and yesterday trying to unravel
the mystery of the connections between the apartment residents who
form the focus of the investigation.
BY LAURENA CAHILL
The Nation
Vagabond
Sara returned, police baffled
POLICE investigating the abduction of five-year-old Sara Martin admit
to being puzzled by the case. Sara was reunited yesterday with her
parents in Bangkok after a dramatic series of telephone calls from her
alleged abductor -- a 17-year old woman known as Bian.
Sara was dropped off by her alleged abductor near the family apartment
on Phetchaburi Road in central Bangkok at around 3pm yesterday. Bian
did not enter the apartment complex, but left the scene before Martin
or anyone else had a chance to speak with her.
"I am over the moon to have Sara back safe and sound," her father,
British-born journalist Robin Martin, said yesterday afternoon.
Martin said he had no idea why his daughter had been abducted.
"It may have been that the woman who took her wanted to sell her, but
to be able do this she would have had to get Sara out of the country.
It looks like the woman acted very stupidly, but that was good luck
for us."
Major Sakchai Suwannukul, the investigating officer in charge of the
case at Makksaan Police Station said that he was reluctant to classify
the case as a kidnapping as no money had been demanded for Sara's safe
return.
"Right now I want to question a number of people, especially Bian's
aunt who also lives at Miami Apartments," Sakchai told The Nation.
"I understand that Bian had taken Sara to the eastern province of
Prachinburi and yesterday she rang her aunt at Miami Mansions looking
for money -- not a ransom -- just some assistance and advice.
"Her aunt was not available but Sara's mother, Boonhom took the call
and told the woman to return Sara.
"It seems strange that this woman Bian would try to abduct Sara as she
was such an obvious suspect from the time the little girl first
disappeared," he said, adding "right now we do not have all the facts
and we are anxious to talk to Bian's aunt as soon as possible in order
to clarify certain points."
Children are kidnapped or held hostage for a number of reasons,
Sakchai said. "It may be that her abductor wanted to sell her or take
revenge against the parents. Her abductor may simply have fallen in
love with the child and wanted to keep her. We need to investigate the
case more fully before we can make a proper analysis."
Vagabond
>There's a certain "recreational" behavior that I shouldn't engage in before
>using the Internet. I just wigged-out and went into "babble mode". Sorry
>for my irrational response to your posting, Vagabond.
No offense taken, Soiboy.
Vagabond
Soiboy
Sorry for the rudeness folks, but ignorant, melodramatic posts about nasty
nasty Thailand really burn me up.
I lived there for a long time and felt much safer than I do in the States.
"shocks" <sho...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ud60f$hc3$1...@newton.pacific.net.sg...
osama
being killed here are more than a 100 times more likely on the roads than by
any abduction. But just to put the whole risk thing into perspective, here's
a typical story from this week's Bangkok Post. Some kid gets killed by
electric shock or by sucking felt tip pens here which would be major news in
the UK, but they aren't here. I love this place and I accept all the risks,
but if anyone says that this is a safer country than the UK then they are
living in fantasyland. The UK is boring, filled with bureaucrats trying to
take over our lives, etc etc, but it is a statistically safer place to live.
Boring yes, but safer. I'm sorry but the last story of child abduction in
the UK dominated the news in television and the press for weeks. They simply
do not happen all the time. The point is the same thing happening here would
hardly reach the national news at all. ..........osama..............
article Bangkok post Nov/2000
Three people were murdered and a woman injured by four gangsters who burst
into an isolated house in the middle of a rubber plantation in Surat Thani
province early yesterday morning.
Tha Yang district police were informed of the deaths at about 1.30am. Three
bodies were found in the two-storey house-an unidentified Thai man aged
about 20, a Burmese man known as Vinai, 25, and a Burmese girl, Shoyee, 14.
All were workers at the plantation and had been shot in the back of the neck
at close range.
The injured woman, identified as Mrs Yee, 33, received a cut on the forehead
when hit with a gun.
Two other workers, Mrs Yee's husband Wing, 33, and a 20-year-old woman, fled
the attack.
The 5-rai plantation belongs to Chalorsak Jaipluem from Muang Surat
district.
Pol Maj-Gen Santan Chainon, the Surat Thani police chief, said it seemed to
be an act of revenge because nothing was stolen.
"shocks" <sho...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ud60f$hc3$1...@newton.pacific.net.sg...
osama
accept every word from their "freelance journalists"
osama
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a0ad794...@news.world-online.no...
osama
as where he stayed ....is it true what Sai said about that area? anyone
know? I suppose that's a start to the truth. reading these nation articles I
am already extremely cynical of the story.............twisted journalism, is
there any other type?
osama
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a0ab4ee...@news.world-online.no...
> On Thu, 09 Nov 2000 13:48:24 GMT, s...@bigpond.com wrote:
> >The story Ive heard is that the girl who took the child felt sorry for
> >it and she took the child for its own good. The police probably know
> >this and that is why they seem uninterested in following up.
>
Lumier
other nation in the world, and I am sure some of the prime
occasionally frequent this board.
As for your posts, let your hair down now and then. I have mellowed in
the past few months, but still have a hard time biting lip when some
dolts, fools and fucking idiots post. Guess where the majority (I said
majority, not all) post from!!!!. A couple of real gems just a few
threads from this one.
Lumier. (The Sweet Little Innocent)
On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:30:21 -0600, "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote:
>Hmm, maybe I should tone it down a bit
>Sorry for the rudeness folks, but ignorant, melodramatic posts about nasty
>nasty Thailand really burn me up.
>I lived there for a long time and felt much safer than I do in the States.
>
>"shocks" <sho...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8ud60f$hc3$1...@newton.pacific.net.sg...
Dont just stand there. Panic!!!!
Vagabond
chronological order. Mr. Martin may yet appear in soc.culture.thai to
explain himself, but he is quoted in those articles as both denying
that his problems in life are any worse than normal, and denying that
there was something more to this story than a random, out-of-the-blue
kidnapping.
It seems the newspapers lost interest in the case after the girl was
found, so we may never get to the bottom of this. A great thing about
SCT, however, is that with the diversity of experience and knowledge
in the group stories like these are examined and debated, leaving us
perhaps a bit wiser than we were if Mr. Martin's original story, or
the story from "The Times", was our only source.
My unqualified guess is that the Thai police were on the trail of
something... maybe the little girl went missing as part of a dispute
over money, and that the talk about slave trade and the like was
overly dramatic, at least in this particular case.
Vagabond
Arthur
"Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader"
Osama, with all due disrespect, you're a moron.
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ueegt$elj$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> Thailand is indeed a place of quiet tranquillity filled with beautiful
women
> and lovely smiling children. no one is unhappy and no one does any bad. it
> is a land of complete freedom. it is also not any more corrupt than the
west
> nor is it any more polluted than the west. everyone here is just
wonderful.
> in it's neighbouring countries like Cambodia the situation is very
similar.
> Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader. in fact SE Asia is
a
> sweet paradise for all people living and visiting here. Don't even try to
> tell me otherwise.
>
> osama
>
> "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> > Oh fuck you!
> > What a complete idiot!
> > Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> > I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every country's
> > newspapers.
> > Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
> > Complete IDIOT of a parent more like it.
> > Many many more stories like this in the US than in Thailand.
> > Thailand (having lived there) is a MUCH safer country overall than the
US.
> > Are you truely this stupid? That in itSELF is disturbing.
> >
> > "Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
osama
is safer in Laos, a Indonesian in Indonesia etc...and a Thai in Thai is
safer than an American in the states..............and you talk about
ignorance............if you have a point, say it......you may well turn my
opinion around.......the development of this post in particular was very
interesting and informative but the posts from soiboy were totally
unnecessary...... your point that Thailand is safer than the west, I would
not say is ignorant, but I would not agree with it......in your rush to call
people ignorant you neglect to differentiate between foreigners living here
and local people..............just don't label everyone that may disagree
that a Thai is safer than an American as ignorant ..........I know where you
are coming from and why you say it and I would love to be convinced......so
far though it just ain't happening.......
it would be just great to go off to loy kratong thinking that everyone
there, the kids and the fireworks etc, will all be safer than being in the
states and that if I thought otherwise I would be ignorant but that would be
living in fantasy....."anything is safer than the states" and if I disagree
with that I am ignorant? If soiboy thinks that Thailand doesn't have a nasty
side to it, he is as wrong as the UN figures quoted earlier and as wrong as
the ignorant and melodramatic journalism about Thailand.
osama
"Lumier" <lum...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:3a0bddd...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> Anything is safer than the states. You have more wierdoes than any
> other nation in the world, and I am sure some of the prime
> occasionally frequent this board.
>
> As for your posts, let your hair down now and then. I have mellowed in
> the past few months, but still have a hard time biting lip when some
> dolts, fools and fucking idiots post. Guess where the majority (I said
> majority, not all) post from!!!!. A couple of real gems just a few
> threads from this one.
>
> Lumier. (The Sweet Little Innocent)
>
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:30:21 -0600, "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote:
>
> >Hmm, maybe I should tone it down a bit
> >Sorry for the rudeness folks, but ignorant, melodramatic posts about
nasty
> >nasty Thailand really burn me up.
> >I lived there for a long time and felt much safer than I do in the
States.
> >
> >"shocks" <sho...@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:8ud60f$hc3$1...@newton.pacific.net.sg...
osama
Arthur, with all due respect, I think you should read it again in the
context of the rest of the posts. did you read the rest literally too?
osama
"Arthur" <Art...@calnet.net> wrote in message
news:ZN5P5.2781$wVo.67...@news.randori.com...
>
> "Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader"
>
> Osama, with all due disrespect, you're a moron.
>
>
> "osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8ueegt$elj$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> > Thailand is indeed a place of quiet tranquillity filled with beautiful
> women
> > and lovely smiling children. no one is unhappy and no one does any bad.
it
> > is a land of complete freedom. it is also not any more corrupt than the
> west
> > nor is it any more polluted than the west. everyone here is just
> wonderful.
> > in it's neighbouring countries like Cambodia the situation is very
> similar.
> > Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader. in fact SE Asia
is
> a
> > sweet paradise for all people living and visiting here. Don't even try
to
> > tell me otherwise.
> >
> > osama
> >
> > "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
> news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> > > Oh fuck you!
> > > What a complete idiot!
> > > Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> > > I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every
country's
> > > newspapers.
> > > Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
osama
you reply you should not take paste a sentence like this out of context. If
you cut and paste the following sentence you would get the same result "to
say that Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader would be a
moronic statement".
Soiboy
Jeez, or just use some punctiuation I guess.
It is difficult to respond to your post as you don't really settle on one
point.
But, in general, in most places Thailand is safer for both Thais and
foreigners than the US is.
I lived in Thailand for five years: in Bangkok, Lopburi, Chiang Mai and
Chumpon. And I and my Thai wife regularly return to visit. I grew up in the
states and have been back here for 6 years. There is far less violent
personal crime such as muggings, rape, murder and kidnappings in Thailand
per capita than in the US (at least in cities). I and my farang friends
always felt much safer in Bangkok than we do in Chicago.
As for my "unneccesary post" is it just that you don't agree with me and
would rather be whipped into a frenzy of paranoia and panic about "dark,
evil asia" and are upset when someone points out that it's not true?
Sure Thailand has a dark side, I never said it didn't. Every country has a
dark side. But having lived in several Asian countries and the US, I have to
say that the US's dark side is much, much darker and blatant than anything
in Asia. This is true for both Thais in Thailand and Farangs in Thailand.
Have you been to Thailand before? For like more than a vacation? I find many
westerners who become instant experts on Asia after having been to a
five-star hotel on a beach for a week. They don't speak the language, have
never lived with Asians in their homes, and have never commuted with and
worked with Asians in their places of work. I have. In Thailand and Taiwan
mostly but have also traveled to Malaysia and Japan. I mean traveled as they
do, on the train or on a bus or in a pick up truck. I have been to some of
the poorest slums in in Thailand, Taiwan and Malaysia and sat down and just
hung out with these people (even when I could not speak their language( I
speak Thai and Chinese)). You can't do that in the States, you will end up
dead. I regularly hung out with the poorest of the poor in Thailand, drank
Lao Khao until I could hardly see straight and they took care of me and made
sure I got home ok, or just let me crash in their hut. I'm sorry you can't
tell me a foreigner could come to the States go to a large city, walk into
the poorest part of that city and just hang out at night.
Yes, my comments were crude and simplistic. If you want more proof and more
reasons why I KNOW Thailand is safer than the States I will continue. But
you cannot say I am "wrong" without similar experience.
Most, not all, but most horror stories about calamity befalling a western
person in Thailand involve a tourist who did not know what they were doing
or worse were acting very very stupidly.
I know some friends who ended up in the hospital in Thailand. They did very
stupid things. I can tell you the stories if you want. But I beleive my
experience in both Thailand and The States qualifies me to at least make a
contribution to this discussion.
If I were give a choice to sleep overnight in a park in the City of Chicago
and in Bangkok, Bangkok would win hands down. I HAVE slept by myself, in the
open on Koh Samet, on the beach (closest example to the park). I was not
harrassed in any way. Well, like I said more examples if anyone is
interested.
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8uign0$8r9$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
Soiboy
have you ever lived in the Thai countryside?
People I had never seen before in my life would stop to help me in the
middle of some dirt road if my bike broke down. An entire school would stop
and everyone would come out, just to give me drink of water when I stopped
my bike there. Some local farmers practically adopted me and my farang
friends and we would stop and shoot the shit any time day or night. I was
overwhelmed by the kindness and generosity of the Thai people both country
and city when I lived there. Yes there are many problems in Thailand. Those
farmer friends and many others in that province were practically forced to
vote for only one person for MP. He was their landlord! The Mafia presence
was almost palatable. People had to respect those powerful people and do
what they said. There was a lot of prejudice between the ethnic Chinese shop
owners and Mafia and the poorer Thais and Thai Muslims in the area. But
people got a long with each other and treated each other with respect from
the richest Mafia boss and chief of police to the lowest butcher and rice
farmer. And foreigners were treated as special guests. Mucn different than
here in the states, where violence is much more prevalent and if a foreigner
were to stumble into the "wrong" part of down, well, dog meat!
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8uitsh$gs9$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> on re reading, I shouldn't mix up irony with the truth, I suppose. but if
> you reply you should not take paste a sentence like this out of context.
If
> you cut and paste the following sentence you would get the same result "to
> say that Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader would be a
> moronic statement".
>
> osama
>
> "Arthur" <Art...@calnet.net> wrote in message
> news:ZN5P5.2781$wVo.67...@news.randori.com...
> >
> > "Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader"
> >
> > Osama, with all due disrespect, you're a moron.
> >
> >
> > "osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:8ueegt$elj$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> > > Thailand is indeed a place of quiet tranquillity filled with beautiful
> > women
> > > and lovely smiling children. no one is unhappy and no one does any
bad.
> it
> > > is a land of complete freedom. it is also not any more corrupt than
the
> > west
> > > nor is it any more polluted than the west. everyone here is just
> > wonderful.
> > > in it's neighbouring countries like Cambodia the situation is very
> > similar.
> > > Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader. in fact SE
Asia
> is
> > a
> > > sweet paradise for all people living and visiting here. Don't even try
> to
> > > tell me otherwise.
> > >
> > > osama
> > >
> > > "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
> > news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> > > > Oh fuck you!
> > > > What a complete idiot!
> > > > Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> > > > I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every
> country's
> > > > newspapers.
> > > > Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
Tim
Tell me a story! Tell me a story! ;-)
Seriously I love reading true travel stories. Other than being
entertaining there is always something interesting learned.
Tim
"Time aint for saving.
No times not for that."
Vagabond
>. Mucn different than
>here in the states, where violence is much more prevalent and if a foreigner
>were to stumble into the "wrong" part of down, well, dog meat!
Violence as measured by the murder rate (killings pr. 100 000 people)
in Thailand is higher than in the USA and a LOT higher than in western
Europe.
Vagabond
osama
will start to say that if this was not SCT, I would have not made the points
in the first place. I was also at fault taking the story at face value and
as I have a kid here myself. Maybe I was a bit over concerned at the post.
If I had seen the story in The Times in my home country I would have been a
lot more cynical. What prompted your defence of Thailand was that my post
was about SE Asia in general and not Thailand in particular. And shit does
happen. In Cambodia and Burma shit happens big time.
Regards what you say about the States, that could be me talking. I agree
with most of your points made. Even if anything did happen to you, it is
unlikely that the Thais would kill or harm you, it would be mainly be a case
of robbery. I think if you are a switched on guy and don't do anything very
stupid then you are unlikely to be robbed or worse in Thailand. People feel
safe here, far safer than western cities and they do stupid things and that
can lead to problems. Personally, I feel much safer here and take risks that
I would not make in the west, but I don't lose my common sense.
This all said, this is the land of contradictions and the all is not quite
what it seems. The fact that you can do what you write about in the States
makes this a better country, but it does not make it safer. The argument
being that you would not do these things in the States, so therefore there
is no risk! Anyway, traffic alone makes Thailand a more riskier place to
live than the west. Thai justice in many ways makes the country safer or
feel safer, but the punishments can be severe and the risk of wrongful
imprisonment is hugely greater than the west. The murder rate is much higher
than the west and many deaths including westerner's are not properly
recorded. I could go on and on to the conclusion that it is not
statistically safer than the US but this is boring! I'm just back from a
wonderful Loy Gratong and I can't really be bothered going on. It's a slow
process arguing on this SCT, but if we were talking I would be agreeing with
you more than anything. To anyone that bad mouths this country, I would be
on your side 100%. What I hate here are the bitter farangs, and you sure
ain't one of them!
osama
"Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
news:1qmP5.113$Qe1.24406@elnws01...
osama
main subject?)
osama
"Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
news:uNmP5.114$Qe1.24730@elnws01...
> Osama,
> have you ever lived in the Thai countryside?
> People I had never seen before in my life would stop to help me in the
> middle of some dirt road if my bike broke down. An entire school would
stop
> and everyone would come out, just to give me drink of water when I stopped
> my bike there. Some local farmers practically adopted me and my farang
> friends and we would stop and shoot the shit any time day or night. I was
> overwhelmed by the kindness and generosity of the Thai people both country
> and city when I lived there. Yes there are many problems in Thailand.
Those
> farmer friends and many others in that province were practically forced to
> vote for only one person for MP. He was their landlord! The Mafia presence
> was almost palatable. People had to respect those powerful people and do
> what they said. There was a lot of prejudice between the ethnic Chinese
shop
> owners and Mafia and the poorer Thais and Thai Muslims in the area. But
> people got a long with each other and treated each other with respect from
> the richest Mafia boss and chief of police to the lowest butcher and rice
> farmer. And foreigners were treated as special guests. Mucn different than
> here in the states, where violence is much more prevalent and if a
foreigner
> were to stumble into the "wrong" part of down, well, dog meat!
>
> "osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8uitsh$gs9$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> > on re reading, I shouldn't mix up irony with the truth, I suppose. but
if
> > you reply you should not take paste a sentence like this out of context.
> If
> > you cut and paste the following sentence you would get the same result
"to
> > say that Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader would be
a
> > moronic statement".
> >
> > osama
> >
> > "Arthur" <Art...@calnet.net> wrote in message
> > news:ZN5P5.2781$wVo.67...@news.randori.com...
> > >
> > > "Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader"
> > >
> > > Osama, with all due disrespect, you're a moron.
> > >
> > >
> > > "osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8ueegt$elj$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
> > > > Thailand is indeed a place of quiet tranquillity filled with
beautiful
> > > women
> > > > and lovely smiling children. no one is unhappy and no one does any
> bad.
> > it
> > > > is a land of complete freedom. it is also not any more corrupt than
> the
> > > west
> > > > nor is it any more polluted than the west. everyone here is just
> > > wonderful.
> > > > in it's neighbouring countries like Cambodia the situation is very
> > > similar.
> > > > Pol Pot was really not any worse than a western leader. in fact SE
> Asia
> > is
> > > a
> > > > sweet paradise for all people living and visiting here. Don't even
try
> > to
> > > > tell me otherwise.
> > > >
> > > > osama
> > > >
> > > > "Soiboy" <Soi...@soi.net> wrote in message
> > > news:qXlO5.43$Qe1.9478@elnws01...
> > > > > Oh fuck you!
> > > > > What a complete idiot!
> > > > > Like this has NEVER happened in the West, oh no!
> > > > > I would read a story like this every day if I looked in every
> > country's
> > > > > newspapers.
> > > > > Dark side of Thailand, my ass!
Soiboy
have you ever lived in the Thai countryside?
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8uotl6$re$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
Soiboy
But it is perfectly safe to do so in Thailand.
Sorry, you didn't give statistics and your assesment is inaccurate
per 100,000 people crime rate in US: 5,820.3, Thailand: 1,449 (MS Encarta
World Atlas)
BIG difference
Thailand is a much safer country.
If you can find a specific source for the homicide rate in Thailand, please
quote the source.
And I agree with what you ALMOST said. The homicide rate in the US is MUCH
higher than in western Europe. But it IS higher than most Asian countries as
well.
One source I found
http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation/e_infonation.htm at the UN
is pretty good. Here are some stats from the UN
Country Intentional Homicides
(per 100,000 people, 1990-99)
Germany 1
Philippines 12
Thailand -
United Kingdom 1
United States of America 9
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a0e39d6...@news.world-online.no...
Soiboy
usual "bitter farang" (as you put it) whining.
I agree, Thailand is definitely a land of contrasts.
What is up with the farang who live in Thailand and other Asian countries
and don't leave but just complain constantly. Then they screw some whores,
shoot some heroin, and start complaining again!
There are definite risks in Thailand, and I don't have small children living
there, so I don't know what that is like.
The best of luck to your family.
Soiboy.
"osama" <osamabin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8uotho$q8$1...@news.loxinfo.co.th...
shocks
<rump...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8udb5p$uu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
>
> shocks wrote:
> >
> > As much as I hate to agree with Soiboy, he's right.
> > No where is truly safe anymore for children.
> > The papers in the U.K. are full of stories of
> > abductions. I'm a new parent and I worry about it all the time.
>
>
> Keep this in mind: Child abuse is a sad reality and I urge every parent
> to watch out for their children. However, the occurrence of assault
> against children is probably as high as it was 500 years ago (when we
> didn't have newspapers or TV) and no need to bend the truth in order to
> confuse the public for political reasons and extort funding for various
> gov. agencies...
> Fact: 90% of crimes against children are - incomprehensible as it is -
> committed by parents, close relatives and those otherwise near children.
> disturbingly many of the rest 10% are assaulted by other children!
> The chance having your child stalked by a weirdo is about as high as
> being struck by a asteroid!
> U.K. papers are not only full of stories they're also full of shit! You
> don't really believe the crap they're writing?
>
>
>
> http://www.goplay.com/rumpel
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Vagabond
>Sorry, you didn't give statistics and your assesment is inaccurate
Hi again Soiboy,
I did not post it as I posted it twice before this year already. But
perhaps you were not around at the time, so here it is (apologies to
those who read it before).
---
ORIGINAL POST (15th of March 2000):
All right, lets do some math here. According to the White House, the
murder rate in the USA in 1998 was 6.3 pr. 100 000 people. I am not
sure what population number they used to calculate that, but if it was
285 million that gives about 18 000 murders a year.
Lets assume that the murder rate in Thailand, said to be 4648 as of
November 1999, climbs to 5100 when December is included. 5100 divided
among the currently 62 million people in Thailand gives a murder rate
of 8.22 pr 100 000 people. The Thai murder rate is then 30% higher
than in America.
To put this in perspective, Australia had 284 murders in 1998. For a
population of 18.7 million, this gives a murder rate pr. 100 000
people of 1.5.
Conclusion: The murder rate in Thailand is about a third higher than
in the USA, and about 5.5 times higher than in Australia.
Vagabond
---
Notes: I found the Australian numbers at http://www.abs.gov.au, the
Australian Bureau of Statistics website.
I found the American numbers at
http://www.whitehouse.gov/fsbr/crime.html
Thai numbers: http://www.police.go.th/trenglish.htm
The US rate is from 1998 and the Thai rate is from 1999, but that
should not make much differce when comparing.
END OF ORIGINAL POST
----
I understand what you mean when you say you are tired of farangs who
complain endlessly about how bad things are in Thailand. I have met
some of those, and it is tiring to listen to. But Thailand is no
paradise either, and the country has all the problems one would expect
in any nation at this stage of development.
There are cultural differences between Western and Thai crime. Bangkok
certainly FEELS safe, and unprovoked, random acts like violence or
robbery are, at least against high-status people like white tourists.
The bad guys prefer to charm, scam or cheat their way to your money.
But if you were, say, a poor Burmese refugee it might be a different
story. Your possessions and person would have little protection. The
police protect the rich to a degree, and the foreigners, but harass
and exploit the poor.
However, murders are nearly always either planned (as in
assassinations) or contextual (as in family disputes). The
non-involved tourist is unlikely to be a victim, unless he/she is in a
remote area. But there are exceptions.
As for police statistics: Why would a woman report sexual assault when
she risks the same at a police station? Why would ordinary Thais
report a theft when (1) Police won't care unless they are paid under
the table, and (2) The police is feared as much as the mafia
(actually, often the police IS the mafia).
Vagabond
PS: The murder rate in Australia, Germany and Britain is about the
same. The only western country with a high murder rate is the United
States.
osama
post. It's so fucking brill living here that I just cannot help but think
"what's the catch, there's got to be a catch!". Maybe that's a particular
strain of paranoia. Anyway I'm going to stay just a bit ahead of the Thai's
in my paranoia for my kid's sake!
Oh and the living in the country post, well I have, and the experience
varies between regions. Issan is best as long as you don't mind being the
"big fool" who's paying for the party. But that's usually a fair enough deal
I have to say.
I have to admit that my experience now is rather boring. I never get the
chance to play the "big fool", but then there's no party. We usually now kip
at an hotel when going to see the relatives, as we can't resist the bargain
of provincial hotels here. Sad eh? But the alternative is not much of an
adventure.
osama
"Soiboy" <te...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:9a0Q5.150$Qe1.29907@elnws01...
Soiboy
state of a country.
If you have been looking at the murder rate in the US, the average for the
past 10 years is about 9,
source: http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation/e_infonation.htm
not 6.3 as it is for 1998. I am thankful that the murder rate is one the
wane in the US, but you have to look at more than one year. And compare
Thailand and the US to Oz or European countries and Thailand and the US are
in a class by themselves (similarly high homicide rates). Also, you did not
cite ONE source for any of your stats.
I would love to see them.
thanks
Soiboy.
"Vagabond" <reto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a10edf3...@news.world-online.no...
Soiboy
> number of years doesn't necessarily have any correlation to
> the relative safety level between the two countries.
Exactly my point all along.
NO statistics can accurately show how it is safer to wander aimlessly in any
part of Bangkok and Thailand you wish to with relative freedom from fear
than it is to do so in the US. Having been in many slums in Thailand an
Chicago, I would choose the slums of Thailand any day. Speaking Thai has a
tremendous effect, but even without is still a safer bet.
David Shorter
> Sorry, you can't just take one year as a statistic to indicate a general
> state of a country.
> If you have been looking at the murder rate in the US, the average for the
> past 10 years is about 9,
> source: http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation/e_infonation.htm
> not 6.3 as it is for 1998. I am thankful that the murder rate is one the
> wane in the US, but you have to look at more than one year. And compare
> Thailand and the US to Oz or European countries and Thailand and the US are
> in a class by themselves (similarly high homicide rates). Also, you did not
> cite ONE source for any of your stats.
> I would love to see them.
> thanks
> Soiboy.
Comparing the murder rates of two countries averaged over a
number of years doesn't necessarily have any correlation to
the relative safety level between the two countries.
If one country had an increasing trundling and the other had
a decreasing trundling, they could both have similar averages
which bear little relationship to the current safety levels.
YEAR
| 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99
----------+----------------------------------------
Country 1 | 10 13 16 18 22 26 30 34 38 43
murders |
|
Country 2 | 40 37 34 31 28 25 21 17 13 9
murders |
Murders per year averaged over 10 years:
Country 1 - 25
Country 2 - 25.5
While both countries have very similar ten year averages,
most people would regard country 2 as being much safer than
country 1 (taking no account of any social or other factors).
Please view the above with a fixed width font.
--
Regards,
David Shorter
DazzReal Sound Labs
Auckland, New Zealand
David Shorter
> Sorry, you can't just take one year as a statistic to indicate a general
> state of a country.
> If you have been looking at the murder rate in the US, the average for the
> past 10 years is about 9,
> source: http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/infonation/e_infonation.htm
> not 6.3 as it is for 1998. I am thankful that the murder rate is one the
> wane in the US, but you have to look at more than one year. And compare
> Thailand and the US to Oz or European countries and Thailand and the US are
> in a class by themselves (similarly high homicide rates). Also, you did not
> cite ONE source for any of your stats.
> I would love to see them.
> thanks
> Soiboy.
Comparing the murder rates of two countries averaged over a
number of years doesn't necessarily have any correlation to
the relative safety level between the two countries.
If one country had an increasing trend line and the other had
a decreasing trend line, they could both have similar averages